June 25, 2025 • 52 mins
What happens when your career ends but your life continues? The Mental Men, Andy Kang, Pat Rice, Chris Gordon, Dennis Sweeney, and Bob Cherney return in this deeply personal exploration of retirement, identity, and finding purpose beyond the job that defined you.
Bob Cherney, recently retired after decades as a therapist, shares his raw experience of waking up each morning still feeling "there's supposed to be stuff I'm supposed to do." This sentiment resonates powerfully with the group of mental health professionals who've dedicated their lives to helping others through crisis and trauma. Their conversation reveals the unexpected challenges of this transition – from the alarming statistic that 20% of first responders develop serious medical conditions within a year of retirement to the profound identity crisis that can follow when the uniform comes off.
The discussion delves into how retirement resembles a grief process – mourning not just the job itself but a way of being in the world. As Dennis reflects, it requires "acceptance of what we can or cannot do" while acknowledging "the grief of what you've lost." For professionals accustomed to emergency response and crisis intervention, the absence of that adrenaline and purpose creates a void that requires intentional filling.
Yet within these challenges lie opportunities for growth. The group shares strategies that have helped them navigate this transition: developing hobbies before retirement, volunteering in new contexts, maintaining social connections, and perhaps most importantly – staying curious. As Pat beautifully puts it, "The Fountain of Youth is composed of two elements: keep your legs as strong as you can and stay curious." This curiosity – this willingness to try new things and engage with life in fresh ways – emerges as perhaps the most powerful tool for navigating life's later chapters.
Whether you're approaching retirement, supporting someone who is, or simply interested in how we maintain purpose and meaning throughout life's transitions, this conversation offers wisdom, humor, and practical insights from those walking the path. Join us for this powerful exploration of what it means to redefine yourself when the career that shaped your identity comes to an end.
Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 210.
If you haven't listened toepisode 209, go back and listen
to it.
Becky Smoke was amazing.
Stoicism, firefighters, homelife a lot of different things.
I really liked it.
But episode 210 is the returnof the mental men Recently
retired Robert Turney,semi-retired Pat Rice, dennis
(01:02):
Sweeney, chris Gordon, who'sbeen retired a few years, and
Andrew Kang, who is just a fewyears older than me and not
close to retirement whatsoever.
Always good to have the mentalmen on.
But here is the interviewGetFreeai.
You heard me talk about it.
(01:23):
I'm'm gonna keep on talkingabout it because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf 18 months practice with it
and I still enjoy it and itsaves me time and it saves me
energy.
Freeai takes your note, makes atrans and what you're talking
abouta client just press recordand it does either transcript,
it does a subjective and anobjective, with a letter if
(01:45):
needed for your client and forwhoever might need it.
So for $99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
worthwhile, and if you do it fora whole year, guess what?
You get 10% off.
More importantly, this is whatyou got to remember because you
are my audience that listens toResilience Development in Action
, what you got to remember,because you are my audience that
(02:06):
listens to resiliencedevelopment in action.
If you do listen to this andyou want to use freeai, put in
the code Steve15 in the promocode area Steve50, and you will
get $50 off in addition toeverything we just talked about.
Get freed from writing yournotes, get freed from even
writing your transcripts.
Use that to your advantage.
Freeai, a great service.
(02:28):
Go to getfreeai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney, and I highly encourage
you to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 210, the Return of the
Mental Men.
This has just been a greatgroup of people.
You've followed me from Findingyour Way Through Therapy and to
(02:51):
this podcast.
But, more importantly, I'veknown Chris since I started my
career in this field in 1999.
I've known Dennis sinceprobably 2001,.
And Bob since 2001, 2002.
So you guys are very importantto me and we have a recent
retiree full-time retiree from ajob and still working part-time
(03:11):
, but still a retiree.
So I want to introduce everyonebut him right now.
I introduce Pat Rice, chrisGordon, dennis Sweeney, andy
Kang and finally, the recentlyfull-time retired, still
part-time working, dr RobertCherney.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Thanks.
Thanks, steve, I really doappreciate it.
And you know, one of the thingsthat strikes me is it's been a
little over a month now is thatI still have to watch how I,
when I wake up, like I feel likethere's supposed to be stuff
I'm supposed to do, I should doI you know I have to do and then
(03:50):
I realized, wait a second, I'vegot time, and that that the
first thing is just trying toslow down.
I think it's enough so you canrelax and enjoy.
And that's really.
I used to fantasize about it,you know, like wow, it's gonna
and it's.
It's a wonderful feeling onceyou allow yourself to have it.
(04:10):
And one of the great thingsabout learning how to work hard
is that you can do well at yourjob.
And one of the tough thingsabout having it ingrained in you
so deeply is that when youdon't have to do it anymore,
there's a, there's a void.
You know there's a gap, so itdoesn't mean that.
But I've been lucky enough tohave, you know, friends and and
and some some activities thatI've gotten involved in pretty
(04:32):
quickly because I knew, for meat least, I wanted to explore
some stuff.
So golf, for example, is one ofthe things that I've just taken
up after 20 years, and I'm veryblessed with people who aren't
critical.
So that's great.
I appreciate it.
But something has to keep thisthing going, and it doesn't mean
(04:54):
that it has to go at the samerate.
It just means that, for me atleast I've read a fair amount on
retirement and even just agingI just don't want it to
deteriorate much more than italready has.
So and that's kind of a joke,but it's also you know you do
start to see things like memory,or you know some of the details
(05:16):
.
It's so interesting to see thatchange over time.
And you can either accept itand try to do the best you can,
or you can fight against it andbe angry.
I'm leaving that part, thesecond part behind.
I'm really to do the best youcan, or you can fight against it
and be angry.
I'm leaving that part, thesecond part behind.
I'm really trying to just, youknow, all right, what can I do?
(05:37):
To basically integrate myselfinto a different life, piece by
piece, by just trying somethings.
And I would encourage anyonewho's going into retirement to
try to make a plan before they,you know, actually stop.
And if you don't have one.
You know, look around.
I mean something as simple asvolunteering is something that
can make you feel really good,because giving it away, you know
you get to keep it, which isthe serenity of helping others.
(06:00):
So we've been fortunate I think, all of us in this group to be
able to help others for many,many years and I just feel like
it's a blessing.
But again, you know, forexample, if you're a firefighter
or a police officer or you knowan ambulance driver or an
ambulance, you know EMT, thoseare high stress, high intensity
(06:22):
jobs that I think we kind of getaddicted to to some extent, and
I'm using that word veryloosely, but I think we learn
how to cope with the intensityof it and that intensity is a
double-edged sword once you letgo, you know.
Those are my initial thoughts,and well, let me.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Let me say something that where I know I don't want
to like.
First of all, I'm going to giveyou a little tribute here, bob.
I don't think my career wouldbe where it is if it wasn't for
you and the wisdom that youbrought me by being yourself
throughout the years, in a veryhard job in a community setting
for so many years, reallyinspired me to continue being
(07:05):
myself, and I always want tothank you for that, because you
never wanted me to compromisewho I was and that's why, like
when I got the fit with theparole office in the jail,
you're like you're made for thissteve and now, working with
first responders, you were oneof the first people like you are
made for this steve.
So I want to thank you foralways recognizing me and seeing
(07:26):
me, which sometimes can be hardin a community mental health
setting.
There's nothing against anycompany, it's just hard
sometimes because you're dealingwith so much and so much
intensity.
Having said that, the intensitythat we face in a community
mental health setting is notunsimilar to the intensity of
first responders face on aregular basis, and that becomes
(07:48):
a little bit addicting sometimes.
Right, there's something abouthelping a lot of people makes us
feel really good and that whenthat goes away, that feels weird
.
I don't know if anyone wants tochime in or say I'm wrong.
I'm okay with being wrong, butI just want to throw that out
because the statistic isstaggering.
For first responders, I thinksomething like 20% of them have
(08:08):
a serious medical conditionwithin 20, within a year.
20% is within a year of theirretirement.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Steve.
I just wanted to thank Stevefor that nice well you're.
I'm happy that it impacted youthat way.
And I want to comment on whatyou just said, because I
actually got bronchitis and thenpneumonia two weeks after I
left Advocates and I haven'tsaid that to many people, but I
didn't know what it was at first.
And then I got the test x-ray.
(08:38):
So I have a feeling I let downsomething that allowed me my
immune system to kind of say allright, buddy, we're going to
slow you down, so Withdrawal, Iguess.
So yeah, so it was fast.
You know, I was fascinated byit because it's a pain.
It was a pain in the ass, butat the same time I I realized
okay, this is your body tellingyou something's going on here,
(09:00):
so I'm better Jump in please.
Speaker 5 (09:04):
Yeah, I'd like to add a few thoughts.
I'm further down the road thanyou, bob.
I retired two or three yearsago now, so I've sort of gotten
used to it, but it was extremelydisruptive to me, in spite of
the fact that I left a job thatI loved at my own choice.
(09:25):
I wasn't forced out, it wasn'tany kind of an emergency, but I
found myself very, verydistressed and discombobulated
and confused and I had a reallyrough time.
It coincided with, as so oftenhappens, the onset of a new
(09:47):
physical condition.
I was first diagnosed withParkinson's disease, so a lot of
things were swirling around,but it was very difficult and I
was used to being a medicaldirector and a psychiatrist and
a person in you know, sort of incharge, and suddenly I wanted
(10:09):
in charge of shit and my worldwas really, really rocked.
I also was very aware that I'veseen way too often people die
when they retire, so I thinkit's a genuinely dangerous phase
(10:30):
of life For me.
It led me to go back intotherapy.
I've had three courses ofpsychotherapy in my life.
This was the most recent and itwas incredibly helpful.
So I just want to encouragepeople if you do retire and you
find yourself at sea.
(10:52):
You got a lot of company andyou're not alone, and it can be
an opportunity for growth, asmiserable as it sometimes is.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
I'll say something.
It's like I forgot that I spent20 years working in a hospital.
There's various roles there,but the chief role for the last
half of that was traininginterns in psychiatric triage,
emergency room evaluations andother types of crisis management
(11:29):
like that, among other things.
And as you guys were chattingin the beginning talking about
this, it occurred to me that Idon't miss the politics of
institution and the paperworkand all of that.
I don't even miss the patientcare in the way, because I went
(11:51):
into a private practice settingwhich I missed, the collegial
network there and everything.
What I do now is a little bitof this.
You know this type of work.
You know this type of work, butI really miss the emergency
room.
Oh my goodness, it's adrenaline,it's primal, it matters, it's
meaningful, it's you're in themoment For all of the folks that
(12:16):
Steve helps.
You know the first responders.
That's the compelling stuff.
You can call it adrenaline, butit's the fact that there are
times we've all had those timeswhen you're sitting and being
with somebody on a unit orsomething like that and you
realize you may be in a life ordeath moment here, somebody's
life and that matters.
(12:36):
I mean that's significant toyou know it's.
You know I've always told everystudent that there'll come a
day when you may be seeingsomeone on the worst day of
their life and you have to beprepared for that moment.
But when you get used to it orgood at it, and then you walk
away from it.
(12:56):
And I walked away from thehospital with one week's notice.
My choice One week's noticebecause of an administrative
shift that was not compatible tomy way of of operating, I
didn't think and so it was alittle hail and farewell they
had me was more like a wake,because some of the people just
(13:17):
learned that morning that I wasreally going.
I guess I threatened it longenough but I, I really went and
it was shocking.
Thank God I had a practice togo to but that hadn't been.
You know really.
But you know, as time goes by Italk to people.
I mentor a physician who hasbeen in emergency medicine.
(13:40):
I have a nephew that's anemergency medicine physician.
So it's, the ER is compellingbecause it matters.
And first responders they dowork that matters in the moment.
They have skills.
They can rise above a lot ofthe emotion in the moment and
focus that energy on helping.
But there's an exhaustion to it.
(14:02):
That is exhilarating is an oddway of saying it.
The last thing I'll say is thatwhat I've learned is and I do a
lot of volunteer,counterintuitive volunteering.
I basically have several yearsof shoveling horse poop and
mucking out stalls in a rescuefor equine, the assisted living
for abused horses, you knowreally, which surprised me as to
(14:25):
how meaningful that is in a way, around the land dolphins.
I don't know a few other things,but the things that I have
heard and I can say in my ownexperience as a 77-year-older is
that the Fountain of youth iscomposed of two elements Keep
(14:46):
your legs as strong as you can.
Keep your body moving as bestyou can.
Stay curious.
Stay curious Because if youlose your curiosity and my only
curiosity is when does Oprahcome on, or something like that
I'm now not evolving, I'm nowde-evolving and you know,
(15:08):
regardless of what happens to mybody and God knows, we've all
had challenges and thingsreplaced.
Thank God they got areplacement part, but it's
staying interested in things andyou know you're interested in
people.
Everyone in this room isinterested in people and I learn
about people in differentthings.
And you know you're interestedin people.
Everyone in this room isinterested in people and I learn
about people and differentthings.
You know mocking out a stallnext to somebody and you find
(15:32):
commonalities.
The beauty of those volunteerjobs is you find commonalities.
You you're with people that arevery different in their life,
probably politically and atevery spectrum, but you're there
for the same reason, which isaltruistic, and that that is an
energy field that healseverybody and it's back to old
(15:53):
style community, and I've saidthat you know in the old days
you might really not like theguy that you who's a bunch of
property and you really thinkthat they're a jerk, but if
their barn burns down you'rethere with everybody else the
next day to help them build itback.
That's community.
And the volunteer stuff got memore into community than you
(16:14):
know.
It helped to let me not missthe community that I left, that
wonderful community I startedwith with Bob and Dennis back
when I started and then theothers that have followed it.
You know, in the last communityinvolved Andy, we were in a
practice together and you know Ivalue those communities and
(16:35):
that's why this is important andthat's why we all play golf
together, you know it really is,it's the people, and what we
share is our state of being nowrather than really the history.
We had, bob and I sat in thetailgate of my car yesterday
after playing golf and we werethinking back about when we
(16:56):
started and Dennis was about tojoin us and I said you know, it
was an amazing group of people,we did amazing work and we can
be very proud of it.
And now it's to take the samekind of pride in retiring well
but still being relevant anduseful and helpful, to be of
good service or of good purpose,especially to the community.
(17:17):
Now more than ever, boy, do weneed community now, and so it's
an honor to know you guys and tohave all the outside contact.
You know, breakfast with Chrisand Dennis and things like that.
I love it all.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Well said, pat, well said.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Hear, hear.
But we also what I miss.
You talk about an emergencyroom.
I'm with you, pat, I missemergency room.
What I love about it and it'sgoing to sound weird, but let me
finish my thought I love thedissension, and what I mean by
that is hey, I really think thisperson should be left out of
hospital.
I call Chris.
(17:56):
Chris says Steve, what are youtalking about?
Blah, blah, blah.
But what about this, what aboutthat?
And then you exchange and, evenif you disagreed, and you come
out to an outcome together,there's this growth that you
can't get anywhere else becauseyou're interacting with people,
and it's the same thing forfirst responders and everything
else.
I didn't always agree withDennis or Bob or Pat or Andy or
(18:18):
Chris, but we always got to agreat conclusion for the client,
for what's best for the client,and that's what I think I miss
the most about the Morganemergency room and working in
general, because the dissensionactually brings growth, if we
all agree.
To be kind of freaking boring.
Speaker 6 (18:37):
Not to mention impossible.
I'll jump in here, Bobcongratulations.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Thank you, andy, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 6 (18:49):
I can tell you're in a good place by the huge grin on
your face.
I know.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
I talked to the neighbors about three days ago
and I just said you're probablygoing to see me smiling more Now
I'm semi-retired, you know.
And they go, what?
So it's nice, it's nice, butthank you.
Speaker 6 (19:09):
I wouldn't think that that was even possible for you.
But your shoulders are lower,you can.
You can really see it.
So congrats, Well-earned.
You know, for everybody hereit's it's well-earned.
I don't know if I'm theyoungest, Steve, I might have
you beat, I'm 54.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Until mid of July, I'm 49.
Speaker 6 (19:33):
Believe me, I'm calling on to it till then
You're the baby in this crowdright here.
But I'm 54 and I'm still in thefantasy stage about retirement.
I'm still imagining how greatit's going to be and how it's
going to be like heaven andthere'll be no problems with it
at all and everything will bejust smooth sailing as I make
(19:54):
that decision whenever thatcomes, I know, of course, just
working with people and knowingyou guys, that it's not always
so simple as that, but you knowit's still something that I'm
looking forward to.
I'm still excited about it forthe reasons you stated, pat,
(20:17):
really about trying to dosomething different.
Pat, really about trying to dosomething different.
I, my life has been reallymarked by some pretty big,
wholesale changes that havehappened at various stages, and
those things always just renewmy, my vigor for things, because
(20:38):
so much stuff comes towards methat's new and I got to learn
new stuff and it, you know,whether that's always been
voluntary or not is really notthe point it's.
It's more just keeping yourselfnimble, keeping yourself
interacting with other peopleand, with the new circumstances
of life, trying to use the oldskills I've learned in a new way
(21:03):
.
You know, that kind of stuff.
I think that's always availableto us if we see it, you know,
if we allow it, I was.
I was in pat's shop thisweekend before you guys went out
and he was fixing one of mygolf clubs that I had snapped.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Not in anger, not in anger.
Speaker 6 (21:25):
But just watching you go through your moves, pat was
like a ballet down there, therewas no wasted movement.
And it made me think, ah, lookat that, that's that's gained
over all of these years.
(21:46):
And you told me I've probablydone this with a thousand golf
clubs and but but that excellent, that expertise you gained, it
made me want to go learnsomething like that.
It made me want to put moretime into into what I do.
Um know, I play music.
I went home, I practiced.
I was like, oh, I got to do mythousand, whatever the
(22:09):
equivalent of that is.
So anyway, I'll stop it there,but congrats again, bob.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Thank you.
Thank you, but I think thatwhat you're talking about is so
important we talked about it Ithink Bob touched on it before
about volunteering, part timework, whatever the case may be,
but also kind of doing like youknow, the ballet that Pat does
with golf stuff is of the day.
It's also kind of those.
Having those hobbies in placeprior to that's so essential.
(22:46):
You know part of my fear.
You talk about being we're.
We're both babies.
I'm going to put us in the samecategory.
Five years, ain't thatdifferent?
But that's my biggest fear isthat I've, you know, dedicated
my life my two teenage girls andone of them's going to start
college in a couple of years.
I've worked all my life.
My two teenage girls and one ofthem is going to start college
in a couple of years.
(23:06):
I've worked all my life doingthis now In the US.
That's all I've done.
Part of my fear in my retirement.
You say you're in the honeymoonphase.
I have the dreadful phase oflike, who the hell am I if I
don't have a job?
I don't know, dennis, if youhave any wisdom, as you usually
do.
But I really want to throw thatout because I see that with
first responders.
They lose their role and theydidn't have anything else
(23:27):
because that's all they've been.
And the same thing for me.
My fear is I've been such atherapist all my life or
counselor, or whatever the hellwe want to call me that I'm
going to lose my identity once Iretire.
Chris touched on that too.
Speaker 7 (23:41):
It's interesting because my first foray into
retirement was actually back in2006, when I had a heart attack.
I was out for three months withthe idea of not being able to
engage but also, at differenttimes, really enjoying not
(24:10):
having to engage, and at thatpoint I started to look forward
to the time that I could retire.
And well, I still don't know,I'm still trying to figure it
(24:47):
out, but it's it.
To me, it's about transition.
It's about being able to acceptboth what I don't have to do
anymore but also what I can't doanymore, and there are a lot of
can'ts right now and that isthat's, I think, for me, where
the grief really is.
But if I can accept that and,you know, sort of help myself to
do what I can as opposed totrying to do what I can't, then
it's made it much easier and Ialso find that I don't feel a
(25:07):
need to have to be as productive, but I do feel a need to be
more self-aware and it's added adifferent spiritual dimension
to my life and I feel gratefulthat I can slow down and my
(25:28):
conversations with each of youhas also reinforced the ability,
the capacity, theappropriateness of doing that,
because you all have thatmindset and I appreciate what
you've given me in terms of that.
But it's all part of atransition and acceptance, and
(25:53):
I'm also very grateful for beingable to get to this point in
life, as confusing sometimes, aspainful sometimes and as joyful
as it is.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
I'm really grateful to be here I heard two very
important things grief andacceptance, and I think that
that's part of the process ofretiring acceptance of what we
can or cannot do.
I think that's a very hard oneto think about accepting that
you've done your part, this is anew phase in your life, and
(26:27):
accepting that's where you're at, and the grief of what you've
lost and what you used to haveIn some ways.
In 2006, you got the chance tolearn to grieve the possible
career before you had to go fullretirement a possible career
before you had to go fullretirement.
Speaker 7 (26:44):
I mean, that's what I'm hearing anyway Early in my
career.
One of the seminal phrases thatI would hear regularly is that
people would be much happier ifthey could go about trying to
get what they can have versuswhat they can't have.
That's actually in many ways toour sort of Western culture is
(27:06):
counterintuitive.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
I'm more Eastern in my philosophies, as you all know
, and I believe that we choosethis in kind of the Buddhist
tradition.
We choose this path, this life,because we have things we need
to learn and one of them is thatwe forget everything we know
about what we are, who we are,this energy package that we are,
(27:32):
and the job is to scavengerhunt here to find it, to make
the time and the practice, theritual practices that allow us
to discover who we are.
We do it in the context ofrelationship and community and
all these other matrices thatallow us to find mirrors.
You know one of the halfwayhouses I went into to do some
(27:58):
volunteer work years ago, theold Serenity House in Natick.
Sandy and Ruth used to get guysfrom different groups to come
and do a commitment, like weneed the thing painted or this
or that.
But I noticed one of theirmirrors had one of those Dymo
(28:19):
label things on the bottom thatsaid it was right in the hallway
and it said you're looking atyour only solution or problem
today and I've never forgottenthat.
That's kind of something Ithink about a lot and that
discovering who I am has reliedupon, like this little Hollywood
(28:40):
squares thing here.
All of you have been a mirrorfor me in in many ways and to
discover this, and you know mymentors, you all know dick, uh,
dick fleck, um, amazing humanbeing and and uh, um, a minister
, chaplain, psychologist.
He was an amazing guy, but hesaid it's all grief work.
(29:01):
He taught me that very earlyguy, but he said it's all grief
work.
He taught me that very early.
It's all what.
It's all grief work.
Oh, it's all grief work.
We're learning to say goodbye,but we replace what we say
goodbye to with new things.
You let go of one door thatyou've shut, another door opens
and that's the curiosity.
And when I, when I was thinkinga bit then is that the I get my
(29:23):
heart attacks out of the way.
Um, in my mid-30s, um, and itwas.
You know, that's what changedmy life.
It stopped everything for awhile and allowed me to save my
life and and um, but it's.
Those are the moments when itfeels compellingly like I'm not
getting my way, but I'm actuallygetting knocked into a
(29:44):
different trajectory, and Ithink those are the little
two-by-fours upside the backsidethat the universe administers,
that I signed up for.
Please, when I need, I do thattoday to whatever my concept of
my higher beings or whatever is.
I need some help here.
(30:06):
So just knock me into somesensibility here.
I couldn't do any of this.
From day one I knew I couldn'tdo any of this without something
greater than me.
I've stolen.
I used to say if you steal fromeverybody, it's research, if
you steal from just one person,it's plagiarism.
(30:26):
So you know, and I'm not sure Ican say anything truly unique,
because I've found such a richenvironment of knowledge and I
still have it today, because youknow when I know that there are
many people when I don't knowwhat to do with a certain thing
(30:46):
in life or clinical thing,whatever, I have a incredible
Rolodex.
That is an old term.
Look it up.
Oh you younger people.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Well, you talked about a dino earlier, now you're
talking about Rolodex.
People are going to be likesearching on Google for this.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
When you see the things on social media, do you
know what this thing is?
I think, heck, I still got one.
I might have two, but it's aprivilege.
There's an old Irish sayingthat says you can't complain
about being old because manypeople don't get the privilege
(31:21):
we have to get good, as my momtold me once.
She said there's two things.
Probably she was about my agenow when she said this to me.
She said and I said this to Bobyesterday I said you know.
She said there'll come a timewhen staying alive is a
full-time job, you know, andyou're never too old to enjoy
your childhood.
Right, I like that one.
(31:59):
She'd spend 10 minutes in aline in a store with people and
they wanted to have a reunion.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
It was just that type of spirit.
I'm serious.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
They'd take her out to lunch after the post office
People she'd never met.
They'd say let's go to lunchand continue it.
I'm serious, but it was becauseshe was engaging and she found
curiosity in everything and Ilearned from her basically to be
curious about what.
Does this mean?
This is slowing me down.
I don't like it.
(32:30):
I'm not supposed to like it,but what can I learn from it?
And that's changed things, andI'll say this.
One last thing is that my wifehas.
I've had the privilege oftrying to help my wife through
some major health challenges andshe's fine today Amazing.
But what I learned, what changedme, is that when I was asked to
(32:51):
do something or had anopportunity to do something,
especially when she was you know, I basically retired faster to
take care of her.
Now I don't have to do as muchof that.
But is that I changed my way ofthinking from do I want to do
this or can I do this?
And when I just get out of myown way and say no, I really
(33:14):
don't want to do that, you know,maybe it's in the self-care way
, but I said I'll do it justbecause I think it's the right
thing to do for her now orbecause I can do it.
And then the doors opened up.
I'm working now two years in anequine rescue because I wanted
to drive her there because shecouldn't drive it when she was
tired and do stuff there.
(33:34):
So I'll drive you and then I'llgo for a walk or whatever.
I was there 10 minutes and aguy that was three years older
than me went by with awheelbarrow.
I got my old golf shoes on.
I said I can't watch this.
I got to be a part of it, youknow.
So it opened doors for me justbeing open to trying things that
I never would have tried before, and that was one of the things
(33:57):
that creating the time allowedme to do the time to just give
it a shot.
So anyway, I've talked too much, forgive me.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Excellent.
Now, you know, pat, one of thethings that strikes me about
what you said and there's anawful lot of wisdom there, but I
call it the acceptance versusthe struggle against, and I
think about how often, you know,I have this, excuse me, I have
(34:26):
this thing about well, you gotto find your limits before you
can like know where they are,and I think that's true.
But once you find your limits,you know especially as you age,
I think then it then there's,there's, there's either
acceptance or there's a struggleagainst, and I I really have,
I've I've had to work on thatone, and Buddhism actually
(34:48):
helped, has helped me, as youknow, in certain aspects.
So I but there's, you know, Ialso came across something that
says there's no growth withoutpain, and I thought I think
there was Rumi who said that orsomething, and I thought to
myself, ouch, that's kind of atough one.
But you know, I think curiousand humble, excuse me, and being
humble is really importantbecause you know, as much as we
(35:10):
learn, we're just.
You know, there's a sayingwe're just another bozo on the
bus, on the one hand, and yet Ithink it's really important for
us to understand that foreverything we learn.
We have the ability to pass iton or we have the ability to
utilize it.
And you know, I think I wasblessed the last couple of years
because I had several clientswho were in retirement for like
(35:33):
six months a year and they werecoming in to say I don't know
who I am, what I am or what I'msupposed to do.
And you know, as we exploredthat, you know, and I knew this
beforehand.
But you know you can't waittill you're retired to start the
process of trying to figure outwhat you'd like to try, and
(35:56):
it's, you know, so, with theseand they were all men, by the
way, they were all men.
And you know what can we do todiscover and at least try out
alternative things to occupytime and provide structure and
meaning.
And that's not a, you know,meaning becomes a different kind
(36:17):
of thing after a while.
You know we've all had thisprofession where meaning is
built into it.
But on the other hand, you know, if you've been, you know, in
the corporate environment foryou know 40 years, you know now
where does the meaning come from?
Meaning, you know, money isn'tjust money's money.
And I think and I saw severalpeople you know, try to figure
(36:39):
out.
All right, how do I do thatagain?
You don't do it again, and youknow.
So we kind of got into variousthings.
You know some people did somevolunteer works.
One guy became a livery driver,you know, for limos.
One guy became a substituteteacher, and you know I also saw
people focusing on theirgrandchildren, you know which,
(36:59):
if they're lucky enough to havethem, that becomes a very
meaningful activity.
Or reconnecting with yourchildren when you didn't have
enough time or space, orreconnecting with friends.
You know there's an opportunityhere.
You know, I think we all get sopreoccupied sometimes with the
amount of.
I just call them, the have-toshave turned into the wanna-dos.
(37:22):
You know, we had a lot ofhave-tos and all of a sudden we
don't have as many have-tos, wejust have enough.
Now what do we do?
But I think it's a very normalthing to go through.
But I think the difference is,like you said, pat, trying to
keep both the brain and the bodyengaged so that you can
(37:42):
continue to function at a levelthat's not, it's more, it's in a
positive direction, even thoughas we age, there's a normal
deterioration.
So you know, I just reallythink that giving ourselves some
time and space to figure thatkind of stuff out is important
versus trying to be efficientand get as much done as possible
(38:04):
, because all of a sudden yourealize you're just making
things up and that's not a goodthing how many times can you
really mow the lawn?
Speaker 6 (38:14):
you know, dennis, you were.
You were talking about thestruggle of can have versus
can't have.
I'd I'd add one other one tothat, which is is what do you
already have?
That's where the grandchildrenare, that's where your hobbies
are, that's where your skillscan lead you.
(38:34):
We have so much.
We've already put all of thistime, effort and energy into
becoming the people that we are.
You don't, at retirement, Iimagine, lay all that down and
say effort and energy intobecoming the people that we are.
You don't, at retirement, Iimagine, lay all that down and
say, okay, I'm a completelydifferent person now, but
therein can also lie many paths.
(38:56):
Right, how do I use the skillsthat I learned, talking to
people every day in a newcontext, but in a way that still
gives me something at the endof it, that feels good and that
means something to me.
And you know I look forward tobeing able to figure that out.
(39:18):
But I'm still deriving meaningfrom what I'm doing, including
being here with you guys, youknow, just being able to talk
about this stuff in anon-judgmental way, in a way
where I'm not having to bedifficult on myself or rough in
(39:39):
my judgment, my self-judgmentabout it, but where I can be
open about yeah, I really don'tknow.
I really don't know what's next, but I have faith in my
abilities and I know what I knowand even though that pales in
comparison to what I don't know,it's still something.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Taking back a little bit on what you said, I'm going
to quote life's a journey, not adestination to this, because
you said I'm looking forward tofiguring it out when I turn to
our semi-retired or retiredpeople.
Have you figured it out yet?
I'm very serious with myquestion.
The point is is that it'sbecause you don't?
(40:23):
It's we're looking for adestination when in fact it's
all a journey?
You know, if you would havesaid five years ago, you know
what?
All six of us are going to besitting on a call here.
I'm going to put that on apodcast.
People are going to belistening in hundreds and
hundreds let's be realistic herepeople I wouldn't have believed
(40:46):
you, but here we are and that'sthe journey that brought us
here.
The fact that Bob is now goingto join us for golf Wouldn't
have bet on that six months ago,never mind a year ago.
But the point is is do we everfigure it out?
I mean, I look to you guysbecause you're retired, but I
(41:09):
want to know if we figure it out, because I haven't figured out
anything yet there's no oneanswer.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
I don't think it's a great question.
I used to think this about myson.
I'd say, well, let's expose himto a bunch of stuff and see
what he wants to get his teethinto, what interests him,
whether or not it's sports ormusic or something that has to
do with something totallydifferent.
(41:34):
And I think that way now aboutretirement.
To an extent, I'm going to trya bunch of stuff.
Yesterday I actually went to achess club that I joined in
Ashland and I took a lessonbefore I golfed.
And you know chess is, you knowit's a really fascinating thing
(41:56):
.
And when I told the guy I was apsychologist, he looked at me
and he said psychology is areally big part of chess and I
thought it was just interesting.
But that's just something I'mtrying because I've always been
interested in it.
But I don't think there's a.
You know, maybe some peoplewill get to a point and I think
this is probably true that theyfeel very content.
You know, going to Daniel'stable and you know, and doing
(42:19):
some volunteer work.
I think it's a matter of howmuch do you want to get involved
in and how many things do youwant to try.
But my theory is try somethingand when you find things you
enjoy, keep them on the list.
But I don't think there's oneanswer, for you know and maybe
some people feel like there isyou know, there are a lot of
(42:39):
people who just do one or twothings and there's no criticism
here.
I just think that it's more ofa process than it is an endpoint
.
Speaker 7 (42:49):
Steve, I can only give you my answer to your
question, and my answer is no,it's not something you can
figure out, because as soon asyou think you figured it out, it
changes, and then it's allabout starting from scratch or
somewhere in around there.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
You know, for me it's been a tremendous comfort to me
in my retirement that I have agreat network of friends.
I feel extremely wealthy in myfriendships and I think a lot of
people don't have networks offriends.
A lot of people are very lonelyand I've read the statistics
(43:36):
but I can't cite them.
The number of people who cannotidentify one single friend or
two friends.
It's an enormous number and Ithink that loneliness is a
tremendously great challenge,and if you are in that
(43:57):
predicament and you retire froma place that provided sort of an
artificial or quasi network ofconnection, it can feel really
horrible, horrible.
So you know, my counsel topeople of every age is build
(44:19):
your networks, and I love theidea that you went and had a
chess lesson.
That is so great.
That is great.
People are revisiting thequestion of their spiritual life
and maybe you were raised onething, but now you're a grown-up
, you can choose your own pathif you want to.
(44:42):
You don't have to stick withthe religion you were reared in.
So the idea of moving into aproactive stance, about taking
up activities that bring youinto connection with other
people I remember one of youwise guys said that the balm of
(45:05):
providing care to others is sogood for people.
So those are my thoughts.
Speaker 4 (45:15):
When you talked about .
Have you found it?
I've listened to all of youwise beings today and what I
hear is a common theme.
Whatever you've been through,wherever you are right now, I
hear gratitude.
And I think it was the fabulousAesop you know Aesop's fables
that said gratitude is whatallows what you have right now
(45:38):
to be enough, and it's thebedrock of most 12-step
communities.
It's, you know, the gratitudeis what many spiritualists
believe that the source, energy,the source of it, is being
grateful.
You know it's.
Grace is a root of the samething, and I look for the.
It is to be grateful in themoment, to stay keep.
(46:01):
I think it was Dick that usedto tell me to keep your head
where your rear end is, keepyour mind where your rear end is
.
Don't get ahead of yourself,but go backwards and staying in
the moment.
Speaker 5 (46:15):
My head is frequently where my rear end is.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
That's why we call you Yoda.
Speaker 5 (46:24):
Lodged up there very firmly, that's right.
Speaker 4 (46:27):
But I mean, look at this, the ability to just know
that this is exactly where I'msupposed to be right now.
I'm not in the wrong place ifI'm able to be with me.
And I had a hardest time.
I spent a lot of my early life,the first third of my life,
running away from me for a lotof reasons that I've had to
(46:51):
learn why.
And now I can remember againthe Dominican telling me.
He said why don't you try justgetting on your knees?
I said was that like an oldCatholic thing?
He says oh no.
He said you can't run on yourknees.
That's a great place to talk tothe higher power, that's great.
And there you go Suddenly.
I'm open to it because it got itout of a metaphor that for me
(47:14):
was off-putting or somethingdistracting and into a metaphor
that I needed to stop longenough.
My knees don't allow me tocontemplate the universe that
way now, but I learned how tosit with it and the it to me is
to look for gratitude andwhatever's going on, especially
(47:36):
if it's negative.
If it feels negative, theremust be a lesson here.
Sometimes the lesson ispatience or acceptance.
I've heard that from you guystoday as well, and I've gotten
much better at it and when Iseem to lose that scope, my wife
will say isn't it time for ameeting or something?
Do you got an AA meetingtonight?
Or you know, like that I getthe unsolicited and incredibly
(47:58):
useful feedback which I didn'tfeel in the past that it was
useful, which I didn't feel inthe past that it was useful.
But we've spent so much timetogether in the last five or six
years from COVID on and our twoillness especially that I'm
much more apt to take feedbackfrom someone that I wouldn't
take it from before, becauseit's generally well-meaning and
(48:20):
it's for her peace of mind asmuch as mine and that's a growth
spurt for me certainly.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
I think that you know , as we wrap up here, a couple
of things that came to mind.
You said you know.
Earlier you said somethingabout where you know if we think
for many people it's justsharing ideas or something to
that effect.
If not, it's plagiarism.
I'll go even a step further.
That's plagiarism.
I'll go even a step further Mesaying something to Bob might
(48:52):
not have the same impact as Patusing these same exact words,
and sometimes it's the rightperson and how it's delivered.
That's key.
And I think that when you talkabout gratitude and attitude,
and the gratefulness that I havefor this group is immeasurable,
for me this is you know Denniswas my mentor there.
(49:14):
I said it was, I didn't saycurrently we're colleagues.
You know, I didn't know Andyand I was introduced to Andy via
Pat.
Who Pat was introduced to me?
Via Bob and Dennis and I workedwith Chris since 99 and I had
lost touch and then reached outand he was excited to join.
When you know how to go, getyour network and know who people
are around you, you're neveralone and learning to be able to
(49:37):
have that humbleness that atthe end of the day, we're all
the same, we all.
No one knows the answers.
No one knows everything.
Then I think that's what I takefrom this meeting today and how
I can move forward and hopingto get some answers not all of
the answers from retirement.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
You know that's really is very poignant, but
it's also it's very true, and Ikeep on thinking about the first
responders and how that definesyou.
I would imagine it defines youin certain ways, and I just want
to encourage people to try tonot be afraid to try new things,
whether or not it'srecontacting the old friends or
(50:19):
trying something totallydifferent than what it is you've
been doing, because I thinksome people get stuck in the and
I may fail stage or whathappens if, or will I make a
fool out of myself?
Or, you know, I don't know, Iknow how to move the pieces on a
chessboard and I don't knowanything about strategy and I
get I'm getting a kick out ofwatching some of the stuff that
(50:39):
is possible when you start tothink differently and part and
that's part of why I'm doing itto think differently.
But patience is a big thingwith yourself and with others.
So I'm grateful for you guys,that's for sure.
I'm still working on thepatience.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Well, on that happy note, I'm going to say thank you
guys.
We're going to do this again,probably in the fall.
I meant every word.
Congratulations, bob.
Very well deserved.
Now we can actually go to DepotStreet Tavern and have our
breakfast without any judgment.
That would be great.
(51:19):
Thank you guys.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
Thank you, steve, thank you.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Well, that concludes Episode 210.
Again, guys welcome, steve.
Thank you, steve.
Thank you.
Well, that concludes Episode210.
Again, guys welcome.
For those of you who areinterested, there's going to be
a new feature that's available.
It's a paid service and it'sgoing to be called Resilience
Development in Action After Dark, or RDA After Dark, which is
what I'm hoping that you guyscan go listen to it.
It's a brand-new thing I'm.
You guys can go listen to it.
(51:44):
It's a brand new thing I'mdoing, so go listen to it.
It's an insight about what wetalked about and stuff like that
, and there won't be any fancystuff, but it really is a deeper
dive into what we talked abouton the podcast and I hope that's
helpful for people.
Go listen to it, all right.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(52:24):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 210.
If you haven't listened toepisode 209, go back and listen
to it.
Becky Smoke was amazing.
Stoicism, firefighters, homelife a lot of different things.
I really liked it.
But episode 210 is the returnof the mental men Recently
retired Robert Turney,semi-retired Pat Rice, dennis
(01:02):
Sweeney, chris Gordon, who'sbeen retired a few years, and
Andrew Kang, who is just a fewyears older than me and not
close to retirement whatsoever.
Always good to have the mentalmen on.
But here is the interviewGetFreeai.
You heard me talk about it.
(01:23):
I'm'm gonna keep on talkingabout it because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf 18 months practice with it
and I still enjoy it and itsaves me time and it saves me
energy.
Freeai takes your note, makes atrans and what you're talking
abouta client just press recordand it does either transcript,
it does a subjective and anobjective, with a letter if
(01:45):
needed for your client and forwhoever might need it.
So for $99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
worthwhile, and if you do it fora whole year, guess what?
You get 10% off.
More importantly, this is whatyou got to remember because you
are my audience that listens toResilience Development in Action
, what you got to remember,because you are my audience that
(02:06):
listens to resiliencedevelopment in action.
If you do listen to this andyou want to use freeai, put in
the code Steve15 in the promocode area Steve50, and you will
get $50 off in addition toeverything we just talked about.
Get freed from writing yournotes, get freed from even
writing your transcripts.
Use that to your advantage.
Freeai, a great service.
(02:28):
Go to getfreeai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney, and I highly encourage
you to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 210, the Return of the
Mental Men.
This has just been a greatgroup of people.
You've followed me from Findingyour Way Through Therapy and to
(02:51):
this podcast.
But, more importantly, I'veknown Chris since I started my
career in this field in 1999.
I've known Dennis sinceprobably 2001,.
And Bob since 2001, 2002.
So you guys are very importantto me and we have a recent
retiree full-time retiree from ajob and still working part-time
(03:11):
, but still a retiree.
So I want to introduce everyonebut him right now.
I introduce Pat Rice, chrisGordon, dennis Sweeney, andy
Kang and finally, the recentlyfull-time retired, still
part-time working, dr RobertCherney.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Thanks.
Thanks, steve, I really doappreciate it.
And you know, one of the thingsthat strikes me is it's been a
little over a month now is thatI still have to watch how I,
when I wake up, like I feel likethere's supposed to be stuff
I'm supposed to do, I should doI you know I have to do and then
(03:50):
I realized, wait a second, I'vegot time, and that that the
first thing is just trying toslow down.
I think it's enough so you canrelax and enjoy.
And that's really.
I used to fantasize about it,you know, like wow, it's gonna
and it's.
It's a wonderful feeling onceyou allow yourself to have it.
(04:10):
And one of the great thingsabout learning how to work hard
is that you can do well at yourjob.
And one of the tough thingsabout having it ingrained in you
so deeply is that when youdon't have to do it anymore,
there's a, there's a void.
You know there's a gap, so itdoesn't mean that.
But I've been lucky enough tohave, you know, friends and and
and some some activities thatI've gotten involved in pretty
(04:32):
quickly because I knew, for meat least, I wanted to explore
some stuff.
So golf, for example, is one ofthe things that I've just taken
up after 20 years, and I'm veryblessed with people who aren't
critical.
So that's great.
I appreciate it.
But something has to keep thisthing going, and it doesn't mean
(04:54):
that it has to go at the samerate.
It just means that, for me atleast I've read a fair amount on
retirement and even just agingI just don't want it to
deteriorate much more than italready has.
So and that's kind of a joke,but it's also you know you do
start to see things like memory,or you know some of the details
(05:16):
.
It's so interesting to see thatchange over time.
And you can either accept itand try to do the best you can,
or you can fight against it andbe angry.
I'm leaving that part, thesecond part behind.
I'm really to do the best youcan, or you can fight against it
and be angry.
I'm leaving that part, thesecond part behind.
I'm really trying to just, youknow, all right, what can I do?
(05:37):
To basically integrate myselfinto a different life, piece by
piece, by just trying somethings.
And I would encourage anyonewho's going into retirement to
try to make a plan before they,you know, actually stop.
And if you don't have one.
You know, look around.
I mean something as simple asvolunteering is something that
can make you feel really good,because giving it away, you know
you get to keep it, which isthe serenity of helping others.
(06:00):
So we've been fortunate I think, all of us in this group to be
able to help others for many,many years and I just feel like
it's a blessing.
But again, you know, forexample, if you're a firefighter
or a police officer or you knowan ambulance driver or an
ambulance, you know EMT, thoseare high stress, high intensity
(06:22):
jobs that I think we kind of getaddicted to to some extent, and
I'm using that word veryloosely, but I think we learn
how to cope with the intensityof it and that intensity is a
double-edged sword once you letgo, you know.
Those are my initial thoughts,and well, let me.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Let me say something that where I know I don't want
to like.
First of all, I'm going to giveyou a little tribute here, bob.
I don't think my career wouldbe where it is if it wasn't for
you and the wisdom that youbrought me by being yourself
throughout the years, in a veryhard job in a community setting
for so many years, reallyinspired me to continue being
(07:05):
myself, and I always want tothank you for that, because you
never wanted me to compromisewho I was and that's why, like
when I got the fit with theparole office in the jail,
you're like you're made for thissteve and now, working with
first responders, you were oneof the first people like you are
made for this steve.
So I want to thank you foralways recognizing me and seeing
(07:26):
me, which sometimes can be hardin a community mental health
setting.
There's nothing against anycompany, it's just hard
sometimes because you're dealingwith so much and so much
intensity.
Having said that, the intensitythat we face in a community
mental health setting is notunsimilar to the intensity of
first responders face on aregular basis, and that becomes
(07:48):
a little bit addicting sometimes.
Right, there's something abouthelping a lot of people makes us
feel really good and that whenthat goes away, that feels weird
.
I don't know if anyone wants tochime in or say I'm wrong.
I'm okay with being wrong, butI just want to throw that out
because the statistic isstaggering.
For first responders, I thinksomething like 20% of them have
(08:08):
a serious medical conditionwithin 20, within a year.
20% is within a year of theirretirement.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Steve.
I just wanted to thank Stevefor that nice well you're.
I'm happy that it impacted youthat way.
And I want to comment on whatyou just said, because I
actually got bronchitis and thenpneumonia two weeks after I
left Advocates and I haven'tsaid that to many people, but I
didn't know what it was at first.
And then I got the test x-ray.
(08:38):
So I have a feeling I let downsomething that allowed me my
immune system to kind of say allright, buddy, we're going to
slow you down, so Withdrawal, Iguess.
So yeah, so it was fast.
You know, I was fascinated byit because it's a pain.
It was a pain in the ass, butat the same time I I realized
okay, this is your body tellingyou something's going on here,
(09:00):
so I'm better Jump in please.
Speaker 5 (09:04):
Yeah, I'd like to add a few thoughts.
I'm further down the road thanyou, bob.
I retired two or three yearsago now, so I've sort of gotten
used to it, but it was extremelydisruptive to me, in spite of
the fact that I left a job thatI loved at my own choice.
(09:25):
I wasn't forced out, it wasn'tany kind of an emergency, but I
found myself very, verydistressed and discombobulated
and confused and I had a reallyrough time.
It coincided with, as so oftenhappens, the onset of a new
(09:47):
physical condition.
I was first diagnosed withParkinson's disease, so a lot of
things were swirling around,but it was very difficult and I
was used to being a medicaldirector and a psychiatrist and
a person in you know, sort of incharge, and suddenly I wanted
(10:09):
in charge of shit and my worldwas really, really rocked.
I also was very aware that I'veseen way too often people die
when they retire, so I thinkit's a genuinely dangerous phase
(10:30):
of life For me.
It led me to go back intotherapy.
I've had three courses ofpsychotherapy in my life.
This was the most recent and itwas incredibly helpful.
So I just want to encouragepeople if you do retire and you
find yourself at sea.
(10:52):
You got a lot of company andyou're not alone, and it can be
an opportunity for growth, asmiserable as it sometimes is.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
I'll say something.
It's like I forgot that I spent20 years working in a hospital.
There's various roles there,but the chief role for the last
half of that was traininginterns in psychiatric triage,
emergency room evaluations andother types of crisis management
(11:29):
like that, among other things.
And as you guys were chattingin the beginning talking about
this, it occurred to me that Idon't miss the politics of
institution and the paperworkand all of that.
I don't even miss the patientcare in the way, because I went
(11:51):
into a private practice settingwhich I missed, the collegial
network there and everything.
What I do now is a little bitof this.
You know this type of work.
You know this type of work, butI really miss the emergency
room.
Oh my goodness, it's adrenaline,it's primal, it matters, it's
meaningful, it's you're in themoment For all of the folks that
(12:16):
Steve helps.
You know the first responders.
That's the compelling stuff.
You can call it adrenaline, butit's the fact that there are
times we've all had those timeswhen you're sitting and being
with somebody on a unit orsomething like that and you
realize you may be in a life ordeath moment here, somebody's
life and that matters.
(12:36):
I mean that's significant toyou know it's.
You know I've always told everystudent that there'll come a
day when you may be seeingsomeone on the worst day of
their life and you have to beprepared for that moment.
But when you get used to it orgood at it, and then you walk
away from it.
(12:56):
And I walked away from thehospital with one week's notice.
My choice One week's noticebecause of an administrative
shift that was not compatible tomy way of of operating, I
didn't think and so it was alittle hail and farewell they
had me was more like a wake,because some of the people just
(13:17):
learned that morning that I wasreally going.
I guess I threatened it longenough but I, I really went and
it was shocking.
Thank God I had a practice togo to but that hadn't been.
You know really.
But you know, as time goes by Italk to people.
I mentor a physician who hasbeen in emergency medicine.
(13:40):
I have a nephew that's anemergency medicine physician.
So it's, the ER is compellingbecause it matters.
And first responders they dowork that matters in the moment.
They have skills.
They can rise above a lot ofthe emotion in the moment and
focus that energy on helping.
But there's an exhaustion to it.
(14:02):
That is exhilarating is an oddway of saying it.
The last thing I'll say is thatwhat I've learned is and I do a
lot of volunteer,counterintuitive volunteering.
I basically have several yearsof shoveling horse poop and
mucking out stalls in a rescuefor equine, the assisted living
for abused horses, you knowreally, which surprised me as to
(14:25):
how meaningful that is in a way, around the land dolphins.
I don't know a few other things,but the things that I have
heard and I can say in my ownexperience as a 77-year-older is
that the Fountain of youth iscomposed of two elements Keep
(14:46):
your legs as strong as you can.
Keep your body moving as bestyou can.
Stay curious.
Stay curious Because if youlose your curiosity and my only
curiosity is when does Oprahcome on, or something like that
I'm now not evolving, I'm nowde-evolving and you know,
(15:08):
regardless of what happens to mybody and God knows, we've all
had challenges and thingsreplaced.
Thank God they got areplacement part, but it's
staying interested in things andyou know you're interested in
people.
Everyone in this room isinterested in people and I learn
about people in differentthings.
And you know you're interestedin people.
Everyone in this room isinterested in people and I learn
about people and differentthings.
You know mocking out a stallnext to somebody and you find
(15:32):
commonalities.
The beauty of those volunteerjobs is you find commonalities.
You you're with people that arevery different in their life,
probably politically and atevery spectrum, but you're there
for the same reason, which isaltruistic, and that that is an
energy field that healseverybody and it's back to old
(15:53):
style community, and I've saidthat you know in the old days
you might really not like theguy that you who's a bunch of
property and you really thinkthat they're a jerk, but if
their barn burns down you'rethere with everybody else the
next day to help them build itback.
That's community.
And the volunteer stuff got memore into community than you
(16:14):
know.
It helped to let me not missthe community that I left, that
wonderful community I startedwith with Bob and Dennis back
when I started and then theothers that have followed it.
You know, in the last communityinvolved Andy, we were in a
practice together and you know Ivalue those communities and
(16:35):
that's why this is important andthat's why we all play golf
together, you know it really is,it's the people, and what we
share is our state of being nowrather than really the history.
We had, bob and I sat in thetailgate of my car yesterday
after playing golf and we werethinking back about when we
(16:56):
started and Dennis was about tojoin us and I said you know, it
was an amazing group of people,we did amazing work and we can
be very proud of it.
And now it's to take the samekind of pride in retiring well
but still being relevant anduseful and helpful, to be of
good service or of good purpose,especially to the community.
(17:17):
Now more than ever, boy, do weneed community now, and so it's
an honor to know you guys and tohave all the outside contact.
You know, breakfast with Chrisand Dennis and things like that.
I love it all.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Well said, pat, well said.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Hear, hear.
But we also what I miss.
You talk about an emergencyroom.
I'm with you, pat, I missemergency room.
What I love about it and it'sgoing to sound weird, but let me
finish my thought I love thedissension, and what I mean by
that is hey, I really think thisperson should be left out of
hospital.
I call Chris.
(17:56):
Chris says Steve, what are youtalking about?
Blah, blah, blah.
But what about this, what aboutthat?
And then you exchange and, evenif you disagreed, and you come
out to an outcome together,there's this growth that you
can't get anywhere else becauseyou're interacting with people,
and it's the same thing forfirst responders and everything
else.
I didn't always agree withDennis or Bob or Pat or Andy or
(18:18):
Chris, but we always got to agreat conclusion for the client,
for what's best for the client,and that's what I think I miss
the most about the Morganemergency room and working in
general, because the dissensionactually brings growth, if we
all agree.
To be kind of freaking boring.
Speaker 6 (18:37):
Not to mention impossible.
I'll jump in here, Bobcongratulations.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Thank you, andy, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 6 (18:49):
I can tell you're in a good place by the huge grin on
your face.
I know.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
I talked to the neighbors about three days ago
and I just said you're probablygoing to see me smiling more Now
I'm semi-retired, you know.
And they go, what?
So it's nice, it's nice, butthank you.
Speaker 6 (19:09):
I wouldn't think that that was even possible for you.
But your shoulders are lower,you can.
You can really see it.
So congrats, Well-earned.
You know, for everybody hereit's it's well-earned.
I don't know if I'm theyoungest, Steve, I might have
you beat, I'm 54.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Until mid of July, I'm 49.
Speaker 6 (19:33):
Believe me, I'm calling on to it till then
You're the baby in this crowdright here.
But I'm 54 and I'm still in thefantasy stage about retirement.
I'm still imagining how greatit's going to be and how it's
going to be like heaven andthere'll be no problems with it
at all and everything will bejust smooth sailing as I make
(19:54):
that decision whenever thatcomes, I know, of course, just
working with people and knowingyou guys, that it's not always
so simple as that, but you knowit's still something that I'm
looking forward to.
I'm still excited about it forthe reasons you stated, pat,
(20:17):
really about trying to dosomething different.
Pat, really about trying to dosomething different.
I, my life has been reallymarked by some pretty big,
wholesale changes that havehappened at various stages, and
those things always just renewmy, my vigor for things, because
(20:38):
so much stuff comes towards methat's new and I got to learn
new stuff and it, you know,whether that's always been
voluntary or not is really notthe point it's.
It's more just keeping yourselfnimble, keeping yourself
interacting with other peopleand, with the new circumstances
of life, trying to use the oldskills I've learned in a new way
(21:03):
.
You know, that kind of stuff.
I think that's always availableto us if we see it, you know,
if we allow it, I was.
I was in pat's shop thisweekend before you guys went out
and he was fixing one of mygolf clubs that I had snapped.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Not in anger, not in anger.
Speaker 6 (21:25):
But just watching you go through your moves, pat was
like a ballet down there, therewas no wasted movement.
And it made me think, ah, lookat that, that's that's gained
over all of these years.
(21:46):
And you told me I've probablydone this with a thousand golf
clubs and but but that excellent, that expertise you gained, it
made me want to go learnsomething like that.
It made me want to put moretime into into what I do.
Um know, I play music.
I went home, I practiced.
I was like, oh, I got to do mythousand, whatever the
(22:09):
equivalent of that is.
So anyway, I'll stop it there,but congrats again, bob.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Thank you.
Thank you, but I think thatwhat you're talking about is so
important we talked about it Ithink Bob touched on it before
about volunteering, part timework, whatever the case may be,
but also kind of doing like youknow, the ballet that Pat does
with golf stuff is of the day.
It's also kind of those.
Having those hobbies in placeprior to that's so essential.
(22:46):
You know part of my fear.
You talk about being we're.
We're both babies.
I'm going to put us in the samecategory.
Five years, ain't thatdifferent?
But that's my biggest fear isthat I've, you know, dedicated
my life my two teenage girls andone of them's going to start
college in a couple of years.
I've worked all my life.
My two teenage girls and one ofthem is going to start college
in a couple of years.
(23:06):
I've worked all my life doingthis now In the US.
That's all I've done.
Part of my fear in my retirement.
You say you're in the honeymoonphase.
I have the dreadful phase oflike, who the hell am I if I
don't have a job?
I don't know, dennis, if youhave any wisdom, as you usually
do.
But I really want to throw thatout because I see that with
first responders.
They lose their role and theydidn't have anything else
(23:27):
because that's all they've been.
And the same thing for me.
My fear is I've been such atherapist all my life or
counselor, or whatever the hellwe want to call me that I'm
going to lose my identity once Iretire.
Chris touched on that too.
Speaker 7 (23:41):
It's interesting because my first foray into
retirement was actually back in2006, when I had a heart attack.
I was out for three months withthe idea of not being able to
engage but also, at differenttimes, really enjoying not
(24:10):
having to engage, and at thatpoint I started to look forward
to the time that I could retire.
And well, I still don't know,I'm still trying to figure it
(24:47):
out, but it's it.
To me, it's about transition.
It's about being able to acceptboth what I don't have to do
anymore but also what I can't doanymore, and there are a lot of
can'ts right now and that isthat's, I think, for me, where
the grief really is.
But if I can accept that and,you know, sort of help myself to
do what I can as opposed totrying to do what I can't, then
it's made it much easier and Ialso find that I don't feel a
(25:07):
need to have to be as productive, but I do feel a need to be
more self-aware and it's added adifferent spiritual dimension
to my life and I feel gratefulthat I can slow down and my
(25:28):
conversations with each of youhas also reinforced the ability,
the capacity, theappropriateness of doing that,
because you all have thatmindset and I appreciate what
you've given me in terms of that.
But it's all part of atransition and acceptance, and
(25:53):
I'm also very grateful for beingable to get to this point in
life, as confusing sometimes, aspainful sometimes and as joyful
as it is.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
I'm really grateful to be here I heard two very
important things grief andacceptance, and I think that
that's part of the process ofretiring acceptance of what we
can or cannot do.
I think that's a very hard oneto think about accepting that
you've done your part, this is anew phase in your life, and
(26:27):
accepting that's where you're at, and the grief of what you've
lost and what you used to haveIn some ways.
In 2006, you got the chance tolearn to grieve the possible
career before you had to go fullretirement a possible career
before you had to go fullretirement.
Speaker 7 (26:44):
I mean, that's what I'm hearing anyway Early in my
career.
One of the seminal phrases thatI would hear regularly is that
people would be much happier ifthey could go about trying to
get what they can have versuswhat they can't have.
That's actually in many ways toour sort of Western culture is
(27:06):
counterintuitive.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
I'm more Eastern in my philosophies, as you all know
, and I believe that we choosethis in kind of the Buddhist
tradition.
We choose this path, this life,because we have things we need
to learn and one of them is thatwe forget everything we know
about what we are, who we are,this energy package that we are,
(27:32):
and the job is to scavengerhunt here to find it, to make
the time and the practice, theritual practices that allow us
to discover who we are.
We do it in the context ofrelationship and community and
all these other matrices thatallow us to find mirrors.
You know one of the halfwayhouses I went into to do some
(27:58):
volunteer work years ago, theold Serenity House in Natick.
Sandy and Ruth used to get guysfrom different groups to come
and do a commitment, like weneed the thing painted or this
or that.
But I noticed one of theirmirrors had one of those Dymo
(28:19):
label things on the bottom thatsaid it was right in the hallway
and it said you're looking atyour only solution or problem
today and I've never forgottenthat.
That's kind of something Ithink about a lot and that
discovering who I am has reliedupon, like this little Hollywood
(28:40):
squares thing here.
All of you have been a mirrorfor me in in many ways and to
discover this, and you know mymentors, you all know dick, uh,
dick fleck, um, amazing humanbeing and and uh, um, a minister
, chaplain, psychologist.
He was an amazing guy, but hesaid it's all grief work.
(29:01):
He taught me that very earlyguy, but he said it's all grief
work.
He taught me that very early.
It's all what.
It's all grief work.
Oh, it's all grief work.
We're learning to say goodbye,but we replace what we say
goodbye to with new things.
You let go of one door thatyou've shut, another door opens
and that's the curiosity.
And when I, when I was thinkinga bit then is that the I get my
(29:23):
heart attacks out of the way.
Um, in my mid-30s, um, and itwas.
You know, that's what changedmy life.
It stopped everything for awhile and allowed me to save my
life and and um, but it's.
Those are the moments when itfeels compellingly like I'm not
getting my way, but I'm actuallygetting knocked into a
(29:44):
different trajectory, and Ithink those are the little
two-by-fours upside the backsidethat the universe administers,
that I signed up for.
Please, when I need, I do thattoday to whatever my concept of
my higher beings or whatever is.
I need some help here.
(30:06):
So just knock me into somesensibility here.
I couldn't do any of this.
From day one I knew I couldn'tdo any of this without something
greater than me.
I've stolen.
I used to say if you steal fromeverybody, it's research, if
you steal from just one person,it's plagiarism.
(30:26):
So you know, and I'm not sure Ican say anything truly unique,
because I've found such a richenvironment of knowledge and I
still have it today, because youknow when I know that there are
many people when I don't knowwhat to do with a certain thing
(30:46):
in life or clinical thing,whatever, I have a incredible
Rolodex.
That is an old term.
Look it up.
Oh you younger people.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Well, you talked about a dino earlier, now you're
talking about Rolodex.
People are going to be likesearching on Google for this.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
When you see the things on social media, do you
know what this thing is?
I think, heck, I still got one.
I might have two, but it's aprivilege.
There's an old Irish sayingthat says you can't complain
about being old because manypeople don't get the privilege
(31:21):
we have to get good, as my momtold me once.
She said there's two things.
Probably she was about my agenow when she said this to me.
She said and I said this to Bobyesterday I said you know.
She said there'll come a timewhen staying alive is a
full-time job, you know, andyou're never too old to enjoy
your childhood.
Right, I like that one.
(31:59):
She'd spend 10 minutes in aline in a store with people and
they wanted to have a reunion.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
It was just that type of spirit.
I'm serious.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
They'd take her out to lunch after the post office
People she'd never met.
They'd say let's go to lunchand continue it.
I'm serious, but it was becauseshe was engaging and she found
curiosity in everything and Ilearned from her basically to be
curious about what.
Does this mean?
This is slowing me down.
I don't like it.
(32:30):
I'm not supposed to like it,but what can I learn from it?
And that's changed things, andI'll say this.
One last thing is that my wifehas.
I've had the privilege oftrying to help my wife through
some major health challenges andshe's fine today Amazing.
But what I learned, what changedme, is that when I was asked to
(32:51):
do something or had anopportunity to do something,
especially when she was you know, I basically retired faster to
take care of her.
Now I don't have to do as muchof that.
But is that I changed my way ofthinking from do I want to do
this or can I do this?
And when I just get out of myown way and say no, I really
(33:14):
don't want to do that, you know,maybe it's in the self-care way
, but I said I'll do it justbecause I think it's the right
thing to do for her now orbecause I can do it.
And then the doors opened up.
I'm working now two years in anequine rescue because I wanted
to drive her there because shecouldn't drive it when she was
tired and do stuff there.
(33:34):
So I'll drive you and then I'llgo for a walk or whatever.
I was there 10 minutes and aguy that was three years older
than me went by with awheelbarrow.
I got my old golf shoes on.
I said I can't watch this.
I got to be a part of it, youknow.
So it opened doors for me justbeing open to trying things that
I never would have tried before, and that was one of the things
(33:57):
that creating the time allowedme to do the time to just give
it a shot.
So anyway, I've talked too much, forgive me.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Excellent.
Now, you know, pat, one of thethings that strikes me about
what you said and there's anawful lot of wisdom there, but I
call it the acceptance versusthe struggle against, and I
think about how often, you know,I have this, excuse me, I have
(34:26):
this thing about well, you gotto find your limits before you
can like know where they are,and I think that's true.
But once you find your limits,you know especially as you age,
I think then it then there's,there's, there's either
acceptance or there's a struggleagainst, and I I really have,
I've I've had to work on thatone, and Buddhism actually
(34:48):
helped, has helped me, as youknow, in certain aspects.
So I but there's, you know, Ialso came across something that
says there's no growth withoutpain, and I thought I think
there was Rumi who said that orsomething, and I thought to
myself, ouch, that's kind of atough one.
But you know, I think curiousand humble, excuse me, and being
humble is really importantbecause you know, as much as we
(35:10):
learn, we're just.
You know, there's a sayingwe're just another bozo on the
bus, on the one hand, and yet Ithink it's really important for
us to understand that foreverything we learn.
We have the ability to pass iton or we have the ability to
utilize it.
And you know, I think I wasblessed the last couple of years
because I had several clientswho were in retirement for like
(35:33):
six months a year and they werecoming in to say I don't know
who I am, what I am or what I'msupposed to do.
And you know, as we exploredthat, you know, and I knew this
beforehand.
But you know you can't waittill you're retired to start the
process of trying to figure outwhat you'd like to try, and
(35:56):
it's, you know, so, with theseand they were all men, by the
way, they were all men.
And you know what can we do todiscover and at least try out
alternative things to occupytime and provide structure and
meaning.
And that's not a, you know,meaning becomes a different kind
(36:17):
of thing after a while.
You know we've all had thisprofession where meaning is
built into it.
But on the other hand, you know, if you've been, you know, in
the corporate environment foryou know 40 years, you know now
where does the meaning come from?
Meaning, you know, money isn'tjust money's money.
And I think and I saw severalpeople you know, try to figure
(36:39):
out.
All right, how do I do thatagain?
You don't do it again, and youknow.
So we kind of got into variousthings.
You know some people did somevolunteer works.
One guy became a livery driver,you know, for limos.
One guy became a substituteteacher, and you know I also saw
people focusing on theirgrandchildren, you know which,
(36:59):
if they're lucky enough to havethem, that becomes a very
meaningful activity.
Or reconnecting with yourchildren when you didn't have
enough time or space, orreconnecting with friends.
You know there's an opportunityhere.
You know, I think we all get sopreoccupied sometimes with the
amount of.
I just call them, the have-toshave turned into the wanna-dos.
(37:22):
You know, we had a lot ofhave-tos and all of a sudden we
don't have as many have-tos, wejust have enough.
Now what do we do?
But I think it's a very normalthing to go through.
But I think the difference is,like you said, pat, trying to
keep both the brain and the bodyengaged so that you can
(37:42):
continue to function at a levelthat's not, it's more, it's in a
positive direction, even thoughas we age, there's a normal
deterioration.
So you know, I just reallythink that giving ourselves some
time and space to figure thatkind of stuff out is important
versus trying to be efficientand get as much done as possible
(38:04):
, because all of a sudden yourealize you're just making
things up and that's not a goodthing how many times can you
really mow the lawn?
Speaker 6 (38:14):
you know, dennis, you were.
You were talking about thestruggle of can have versus
can't have.
I'd I'd add one other one tothat, which is is what do you
already have?
That's where the grandchildrenare, that's where your hobbies
are, that's where your skillscan lead you.
(38:34):
We have so much.
We've already put all of thistime, effort and energy into
becoming the people that we are.
You don't, at retirement, Iimagine, lay all that down and
say effort and energy intobecoming the people that we are.
You don't, at retirement, Iimagine, lay all that down and
say, okay, I'm a completelydifferent person now, but
therein can also lie many paths.
(38:56):
Right, how do I use the skillsthat I learned, talking to
people every day in a newcontext, but in a way that still
gives me something at the endof it, that feels good and that
means something to me.
And you know I look forward tobeing able to figure that out.
(39:18):
But I'm still deriving meaningfrom what I'm doing, including
being here with you guys, youknow, just being able to talk
about this stuff in anon-judgmental way, in a way
where I'm not having to bedifficult on myself or rough in
(39:39):
my judgment, my self-judgmentabout it, but where I can be
open about yeah, I really don'tknow.
I really don't know what's next, but I have faith in my
abilities and I know what I knowand even though that pales in
comparison to what I don't know,it's still something.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Taking back a little bit on what you said, I'm going
to quote life's a journey, not adestination to this, because
you said I'm looking forward tofiguring it out when I turn to
our semi-retired or retiredpeople.
Have you figured it out yet?
I'm very serious with myquestion.
The point is is that it'sbecause you don't?
(40:23):
It's we're looking for adestination when in fact it's
all a journey?
You know, if you would havesaid five years ago, you know
what?
All six of us are going to besitting on a call here.
I'm going to put that on apodcast.
People are going to belistening in hundreds and
hundreds let's be realistic herepeople I wouldn't have believed
(40:46):
you, but here we are and that'sthe journey that brought us
here.
The fact that Bob is now goingto join us for golf Wouldn't
have bet on that six months ago,never mind a year ago.
But the point is is do we everfigure it out?
I mean, I look to you guysbecause you're retired, but I
(41:09):
want to know if we figure it out, because I haven't figured out
anything yet there's no oneanswer.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
I don't think it's a great question.
I used to think this about myson.
I'd say, well, let's expose himto a bunch of stuff and see
what he wants to get his teethinto, what interests him,
whether or not it's sports ormusic or something that has to
do with something totallydifferent.
(41:34):
And I think that way now aboutretirement.
To an extent, I'm going to trya bunch of stuff.
Yesterday I actually went to achess club that I joined in
Ashland and I took a lessonbefore I golfed.
And you know chess is, you knowit's a really fascinating thing
(41:56):
.
And when I told the guy I was apsychologist, he looked at me
and he said psychology is areally big part of chess and I
thought it was just interesting.
But that's just something I'mtrying because I've always been
interested in it.
But I don't think there's a.
You know, maybe some peoplewill get to a point and I think
this is probably true that theyfeel very content.
You know, going to Daniel'stable and you know, and doing
(42:19):
some volunteer work.
I think it's a matter of howmuch do you want to get involved
in and how many things do youwant to try.
But my theory is try somethingand when you find things you
enjoy, keep them on the list.
But I don't think there's oneanswer, for you know and maybe
some people feel like there isyou know, there are a lot of
(42:39):
people who just do one or twothings and there's no criticism
here.
I just think that it's more ofa process than it is an endpoint
.
Speaker 7 (42:49):
Steve, I can only give you my answer to your
question, and my answer is no,it's not something you can
figure out, because as soon asyou think you figured it out, it
changes, and then it's allabout starting from scratch or
somewhere in around there.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
You know, for me it's been a tremendous comfort to me
in my retirement that I have agreat network of friends.
I feel extremely wealthy in myfriendships and I think a lot of
people don't have networks offriends.
A lot of people are very lonelyand I've read the statistics
(43:36):
but I can't cite them.
The number of people who cannotidentify one single friend or
two friends.
It's an enormous number and Ithink that loneliness is a
tremendously great challenge,and if you are in that
(43:57):
predicament and you retire froma place that provided sort of an
artificial or quasi network ofconnection, it can feel really
horrible, horrible.
So you know, my counsel topeople of every age is build
(44:19):
your networks, and I love theidea that you went and had a
chess lesson.
That is so great.
That is great.
People are revisiting thequestion of their spiritual life
and maybe you were raised onething, but now you're a grown-up
, you can choose your own pathif you want to.
(44:42):
You don't have to stick withthe religion you were reared in.
So the idea of moving into aproactive stance, about taking
up activities that bring youinto connection with other
people I remember one of youwise guys said that the balm of
(45:05):
providing care to others is sogood for people.
So those are my thoughts.
Speaker 4 (45:15):
When you talked about .
Have you found it?
I've listened to all of youwise beings today and what I
hear is a common theme.
Whatever you've been through,wherever you are right now, I
hear gratitude.
And I think it was the fabulousAesop you know Aesop's fables
that said gratitude is whatallows what you have right now
(45:38):
to be enough, and it's thebedrock of most 12-step
communities.
It's, you know, the gratitudeis what many spiritualists
believe that the source, energy,the source of it, is being
grateful.
You know it's.
Grace is a root of the samething, and I look for the.
It is to be grateful in themoment, to stay keep.
(46:01):
I think it was Dick that usedto tell me to keep your head
where your rear end is, keepyour mind where your rear end is
.
Don't get ahead of yourself,but go backwards and staying in
the moment.
Speaker 5 (46:15):
My head is frequently where my rear end is.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
That's why we call you Yoda.
Speaker 5 (46:24):
Lodged up there very firmly, that's right.
Speaker 4 (46:27):
But I mean, look at this, the ability to just know
that this is exactly where I'msupposed to be right now.
I'm not in the wrong place ifI'm able to be with me.
And I had a hardest time.
I spent a lot of my early life,the first third of my life,
running away from me for a lotof reasons that I've had to
(46:51):
learn why.
And now I can remember againthe Dominican telling me.
He said why don't you try justgetting on your knees?
I said was that like an oldCatholic thing?
He says oh no.
He said you can't run on yourknees.
That's a great place to talk tothe higher power, that's great.
And there you go Suddenly.
I'm open to it because it got itout of a metaphor that for me
(47:14):
was off-putting or somethingdistracting and into a metaphor
that I needed to stop longenough.
My knees don't allow me tocontemplate the universe that
way now, but I learned how tosit with it and the it to me is
to look for gratitude andwhatever's going on, especially
(47:36):
if it's negative.
If it feels negative, theremust be a lesson here.
Sometimes the lesson ispatience or acceptance.
I've heard that from you guystoday as well, and I've gotten
much better at it and when Iseem to lose that scope, my wife
will say isn't it time for ameeting or something?
Do you got an AA meetingtonight?
Or you know, like that I getthe unsolicited and incredibly
(47:58):
useful feedback which I didn'tfeel in the past that it was
useful, which I didn't feel inthe past that it was useful.
But we've spent so much timetogether in the last five or six
years from COVID on and our twoillness especially that I'm
much more apt to take feedbackfrom someone that I wouldn't
take it from before, becauseit's generally well-meaning and
(48:20):
it's for her peace of mind asmuch as mine and that's a growth
spurt for me certainly.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
I think that you know , as we wrap up here, a couple
of things that came to mind.
You said you know.
Earlier you said somethingabout where you know if we think
for many people it's justsharing ideas or something to
that effect.
If not, it's plagiarism.
I'll go even a step further.
That's plagiarism.
I'll go even a step further Mesaying something to Bob might
(48:52):
not have the same impact as Patusing these same exact words,
and sometimes it's the rightperson and how it's delivered.
That's key.
And I think that when you talkabout gratitude and attitude,
and the gratefulness that I havefor this group is immeasurable,
for me this is you know Denniswas my mentor there.
(49:14):
I said it was, I didn't saycurrently we're colleagues.
You know, I didn't know Andyand I was introduced to Andy via
Pat.
Who Pat was introduced to me?
Via Bob and Dennis and I workedwith Chris since 99 and I had
lost touch and then reached outand he was excited to join.
When you know how to go, getyour network and know who people
are around you, you're neveralone and learning to be able to
(49:37):
have that humbleness that atthe end of the day, we're all
the same, we all.
No one knows the answers.
No one knows everything.
Then I think that's what I takefrom this meeting today and how
I can move forward and hopingto get some answers not all of
the answers from retirement.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
You know that's really is very poignant, but
it's also it's very true, and Ikeep on thinking about the first
responders and how that definesyou.
I would imagine it defines youin certain ways, and I just want
to encourage people to try tonot be afraid to try new things,
whether or not it'srecontacting the old friends or
(50:19):
trying something totallydifferent than what it is you've
been doing, because I thinksome people get stuck in the and
I may fail stage or whathappens if, or will I make a
fool out of myself?
Or, you know, I don't know, Iknow how to move the pieces on a
chessboard and I don't knowanything about strategy and I
get I'm getting a kick out ofwatching some of the stuff that
(50:39):
is possible when you start tothink differently and part and
that's part of why I'm doing itto think differently.
But patience is a big thingwith yourself and with others.
So I'm grateful for you guys,that's for sure.
I'm still working on thepatience.
Speaker 2 (50:59):
Well, on that happy note, I'm going to say thank you
guys.
We're going to do this again,probably in the fall.
I meant every word.
Congratulations, bob.
Very well deserved.
Now we can actually go to DepotStreet Tavern and have our
breakfast without any judgment.
That would be great.
(51:19):
Thank you guys.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
Thank you, steve, thank you.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
Well, that concludes Episode 210.
Again, guys welcome, steve.
Thank you, steve.
Thank you.
Well, that concludes Episode210.
Again, guys welcome.
For those of you who areinterested, there's going to be
a new feature that's available.
It's a paid service and it'sgoing to be called Resilience
Development in Action After Dark, or RDA After Dark, which is
what I'm hoping that you guyscan go listen to it.
It's a brand-new thing I'm.
You guys can go listen to it.
(51:44):
It's a brand new thing I'mdoing, so go listen to it.
It's an insight about what wetalked about and stuff like that
, and there won't be any fancystuff, but it really is a deeper
dive into what we talked abouton the podcast and I hope that's
helpful for people.
Go listen to it, all right.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(52:24):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.