July 2, 2025 • 31 mins
Gordon Brewer, a licensed marriage and family therapist with over 25 years of experience, joins Steve to unpack the complex relationship between trauma, grief, and emotional resilience in the first responder community. Their conversation touches on a critical but often overlooked barrier to mental health care—the fear that therapists can't handle the horrific realities first responders face daily.
"Sometimes people forget about how trauma manifests in different ways," Gordon explains, sharing how his background as a funeral director gave him unique insights into grief processing. Both experts explore why first responders might test their therapists by sharing graphic details, essentially asking: "Can you handle my reality?"
The discussion delves into the subtle yet important distinctions between grief and trauma. For first responders who regularly encounter death, these experiences can trigger complex emotional responses, especially when they've previously tried to help someone who ultimately died. This creates layers of grief beyond the immediate situation—grief for what couldn't be prevented and the weight of perceived failure.
A fascinating segment explores emotional intelligence within first responder culture. "Anger is acceptable, happiness is acceptable, the rest of it not so much," Steve notes, highlighting how limited emotional expression can prevent proper processing. Gordon adds that understanding your internal emotional landscape doesn't require displaying vulnerability publicly, but acknowledging emotions privately is essential for preventing acute stress from becoming trauma.
Drawing from Brené Brown's work, they explore how vulnerability forms the foundation of courage—a seeming paradox particularly relevant for first responders. "You cannot have courage without vulnerability," Gordon emphasizes. "Just because we do the job doesn't negate the fact that we had those feelings of fear."
Perhaps most powerfully, they discuss how community support facilitates healing. Gordon shares personal insights from losing his wife to cancer, illustrating how simple presence often matters more than words. They note how first responder communities excel at immediate support but often disappear after a few weeks, leaving families to navigate ongoing grief alone.
Join this authentic conversation that bridges professional expertise with personal experience, offering practical wisdom for anyone navigating trauma, supporting others through grief, or seeking to build greater emotional resilience in challenging circumstances.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi and welcome to Episode 211.
If you haven't listened toepisode 210, it was with the
mental men, the guys that youknow Bob, pat, dennis, andy and
Chris, just shooting the stuffabout retirement and how that
looks like and how it can bedifficult to lose those roles
really relatable for firstresponders.
But episode 211 will be withGordon Brewer.
(01:04):
I think that we want to talkabout a lot of different things.
He's someone who's been inpractice for over 30 years.
He's the lead of PsychcraftNetwork and I'm sure we're going
to talk about grief, trauma andstuff like that.
So here's the interview.
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Well, welcome everyone.
And I had Gordon on when it wascalled Finding your Way Through
Therapy and I believe that wasepisode 57, and I'm on 212.
So it's been a while since I'veseen Gordon and I'm so happy to
(02:57):
have Gordon Brewer, who is theleader of PsychGraph Network,
which I'm very proud to be partof, and great podcast there, and
I wanted to welcome him back toNow, resilience Development in
Action.
Leader of psych graph network,which I'm very proud to be part
of, and great podcast there, andI wanted to welcome them back
to now.
Resilience development in actionyes, glad to be here, steve yes
, you know what one of thethings that I, you know, we, we
were talking beforehand becausegordon and I, like I'd like to
(03:17):
consider us closer.
You know, good friends, at thispoint, we, we talk a lot and
you know, we obviously have verydifferent podcasts and I know a
lot of people who are listeningto this are going to be first
responders, and we were talkingabout like, oh geez, where can
we go with this?
One of the things that reallystruck me is that sometimes
people forget about the traumastuff and how it can manifest in
(03:38):
different ways.
Before we go there, though, Ishould ask you to introduce
yourself a little bit, in casepeople haven't heard the other
episode all right, all right.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well, thanks, steve, it's really good to be back on
on your podcast.
The new, revised maneuver newand improved resilience,
development and action.
I'm gordon brewer.
I'm a licensed marriage andfamily therapist.
I've been a therapist now foroh gosh, nearly 25 years now,
(04:09):
which is hard to believe when Istart thinking about that.
But yeah, and so one of thethings that I primarily focus on
is in my practice is, for mepersonally, is I work with a lot
of men, men that are strugglingwith, you know, different kinds
of trauma, but also just sexualfunction, all of that kind of
(04:32):
thing or things that I tend tohelp people with.
And I think you know mosttherapists are women we're in
the minority, steve, being menand so I think, a lot of men
that reach out to us and thatsort of thing, and you know,
thinking about first responders,one of the things that you know
(04:53):
we were thinking about beforewe are talking about before we
started recording, is just the.
I think a lot of times whenpeople come to therapists,
they're really carrying somevery heavy stuff and really some
maybe horrific situations thatthey've gone through.
(05:15):
I think one of the reluctanceto share is is they're not sure
if the person they're telling isgoing to be able to handle it.
They're worried abouttraumatizing the therapist or
that sort of thing, and so Ithink that's an interesting
phenomenon I was sharing withSteve, a client I had recently
who had been in a very traumaticshooting accident when he was a
(05:41):
child, and I think one of thereasons he told me the graphic
detail of that was he was justtesting me to see if I could
handle that, and so I think oneof the things I know we talked
about too, steve, is just, youknow, people maybe being
reluctant to go to therapy, andI think that might be one reason
(06:03):
there is just making surethey've got a therapist that
they know can help them process.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
You know, some really bad stuff when it happens, or
has happened and I think thatthat's what they worry so much
about for first responders ingeneral.
You know and first and foremost, me and Gordon also just want
to put it out there we don'tthink every first responder is
going to go through trauma, butthey will be in more difficult
(06:30):
experiences than the generalpopulations or civilians.
However, I think that whenthere's this, I don't know if
they can handle it.
It's a real phenomenon aboutthe cultural competency of
individuals.
You're talking about theshooting.
I also had a client tell me thatwhen they went to see a
therapist who was supposedly afirst responder therapist, they
(06:50):
were talking about a significantevent that they went through.
There was a call that went onand after they were done talking
about it, the therapist says Ineed a few minutes to process
this.
Well, how's that for a turnofffor any first responder Like you
can't handle it.
Well, now you prove that youcan't handle it.
You know, one of the things Iknow you also do is you work
(07:11):
with people who want to start.
You know the podcasting andhaving their experiences be
valued.
You know, I think that one ofthe things I find interesting is
that you talk about trauma.
We talk about grief and knowingwhat your competencies are and
not overreaching.
I think that that's a big issuesometimes with therapists and
that's why first responders theyget a little reluctant
(07:33):
sometimes to reach out, right,right.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, and I think it's helpful to find in looking
for a therapist is to findsomeone that has had at least
some background in extremetrauma, whether they've been in
the military or whether theyhave been a first responder,
that sort of thing.
I think it goes a long way withbeing able to feel like the
(07:57):
person that you're talking totruly understands what it's like
.
You know, one of the thingsthat, although I was a first
responder for a short while whenI was in high school, I worked
for part of a volunteer rescuesquad in the town that I lived
in growing up and so got to dothat job for a short while.
(08:21):
But the other thing for me wasis later, my first career was as
a funeral funeral director infuneral homes, and so you get
you get hit with a lot of traumathere as well.
It's not not exactly the same,but you're around death and
those those kinds of things, andI think it's important to find
(08:42):
a therapist that has anunderstanding of okay, this is
what it might feel like when,when you've been faced with
something like that and alsojust knowing that you're not
going to like I'm repeatingmyself not going to traumatize
the therapist, and beingreassured of that when you're
telling having to you know,going through the process of
(09:05):
processing traumatic events.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I think that you said you know you're repeating
yourself, but I think it'simportant there's subtle
differences between grief andtrauma, and that is absolutely
true and I mean we can talkabout it here.
But ultimately, being a funeraldirector, you deal with the
grief and unfortunately,sometimes grief brings back past
traumas and what I find withthe first responders I think
(09:30):
about my medics and policeofficers sometimes they'll go to
a call of someone they weresuicidal two months ago, six
months ago, three years ago, andthen they go to a call where
the suicide actually occurredand then they have the grief
process and the whole having tothe call where the suicide
actually occurred.
And then you know they have thegrief process and the whole
having to do all that stuff.
But then it's like, oh crap, Ididn't, like I didn't.
You know I'm not saying thatthey have complexes, but
(09:53):
sometimes like, oh, I thought Isaved this guy, I thought I
helped him, what's wrong with me?
And then there's this grief andloss of that person that you
saved and I'm not put go toYouTube.
I'm putting this in quotationmarks, and I think that that
plays a factor too, because whenyou go to the funeral, I find
that people don't crynecessarily about just the
(10:13):
person in front of them.
They're talking about the otherparts that they've lost and all
that.
So there's subtle differences,but I think that we're in the
same page, that grief and traumais very similar.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Right, right, and I think the other thing to
recognize around grief andtrauma is it's something that
you actually carry in your body.
I mean, there's been a lot ofstudies around this and a lot of
information about how grief andtrauma affects people
physiologically and that youreally do carry it in your body.
And there's also the triggersthat come up.
(10:48):
Anybody that's worked in griefand trauma talks about triggers
and just things that can happenthat maybe are not related, but
your brain goes into overdrive,so to speak.
You know responding todifficult situations as if they
were dangerous.
But I think you know one of thethings that I think is a good
(11:11):
thing for anybody to do, whetherthey're first responders or not
, is to learn as much as you canabout something we refer to as
emotional intelligence, of beingable to know how to just handle
emotions.
And unfortunately the word no,we're not.
(11:32):
Nobody is given an instruction,instruction manual on that, but
I've got a cat here, so there'san instruction manual that came
with the cat yeah, no, no, sobut uh, yeah, uh yeah, about
handle, how to handle emotions,and I think a lot of people, how
we learn, that is what we've,you know, we learn from our
(11:53):
family of origin and that sortof thing, and so finding mentors
or people that you can, um, youcan, you can talk to uh and
just learn how to centeryourself, how to regulate your
own emotions well, and so, again, easier said than done, but
that's where a therapist cancome in and teach you some
(12:14):
different things and differenttechniques and different
strategies for handling the bigemotions that come up when there
is trauma or grief that we'redealing with.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I think that there's so many things.
I want to go on here and I'lllet you decide where you want to
go, because emotionalintelligence one of the things
that I suddenly talk about isWith people in the first
responder world.
Anger is acceptable, happinessis acceptable, the rest of it
not so much.
And having the emotionalintelligence is maybe you don't
display it, but you'reacknowledging that there was a
(12:48):
surprise, there was a fearinvolved, there was other
emotions, and then processingthem afterwards.
I have that conversationconstantly, like not everything
is just two emotions and it'susually more complex than that
and acknowledge that and thenyou don't need to like cry on
scene or some shit, but at theend of the day, you got to be
able to have that emotionalintelligence of recognizing oh,
(13:10):
the reason why I'm feeling soangry is I was scared and
nothing happened.
Oh, so there's fear.
Okay, let's process that fear.
It actually helps things notbecome trauma but acute stress
disorder.
Process that fear.
It actually helps things notbecome trauma but acute stress
disorder.
The other thing I was mentioningabout grief and you talked
about the grief.
You know, I've been throughgrief, you've been through grief
and I'm going to leave it asvague as I possibly can here,
unless you want to talk morespecifically.
(13:31):
But I have a therapist to helpme through my grief.
While I'm very competent withother people and their grief and
most people would say thatabout me I need help too, and I
don't have any pride anymore.
I used to be a little pridefulabout these things.
Nowadays I'm like yeah, I seemy therapist regularly.
Joe smacks me around when heneeds to, supports me when I
need to, and he seems to know itbetter than I do, so it's
(13:54):
always helpful.
So I don't know where you wantto go.
But those are the two thingsthat came to mind when you were
talking.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Yeah, I think it's so important to find people in
your life and therapists aretrained to do this but find a
person that you can be brutallyhonest with, talk about your
internal world in a way that isnot going to be judged, in a way
that is not going to be judged,not going to be put any sort of
(14:21):
, you know, stigmas on it oranything like that.
Being able to just process it,and that's such a huge thing for
people.
I think that's where healingcomes is to be able to tell the
story about what has happenedwithout there being a lot of the
(14:41):
judgment that gets laid on that.
And you know, unfortunately,most of the judgment that people
have is comes from within.
It's not the people they'retelling or the people that
they're sharing things with thatjudge, but we judge ourselves,
and so being able to understandthat and being able to recognize
(15:02):
that we're all broken andfragile people, regardless of
what people might see on theoutside, all of us are
vulnerable, and it's whenvulnerability occurs is when we
actually find courage.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
There was a you just said a very dirty word there,
Gordon, but I'll let you go.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Yeah, so well, one of the things— where I was going
to go there with that is a fewyears ago I watched—I think it
was on Netflix and it was byBrene Brown and the title of it
was something— it had somethingwith courage in it.
But one of the things, one ofthe things that she mentions in
(15:47):
there, which is so true, is youcannot have courage without
vulnerability.
If you think and I rememberthere was somebody in the
audience that I believe it was aservice member, a Marine or
something who had been in harm'sway and they were talking about
you know what that, what thatfelt like, and that you're
(16:09):
totally vulnerable and totallyscared.
But without that you can't havecourage.
And so that doesn't mean youput on the stiff upper lip and
pretend like you're not feelingscared or feeling hurt or
whatever, but you and anybodythat's a first responder has
experienced this is that you gointo situations that are either
(16:32):
life-threatening or dangerous,or people could get hurt, or
somebody's about to bleed out,or themselves hurt or somebody's
about to bleed out orthemselves yeah, are there, are
there about to die, or they'rehaving to do CPR on somebody or
whatever.
That's scary as hell and that's,and yet the adrenaline's going
(16:55):
and all of that sort of thing,and it's a very vulnerable
moment.
But the people, we have theability to push through and do
the job, so to speak.
But just because we do the jobdoesn't negate the fact that we
had those feelings of fear andthat sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I mean it goes.
There's so many things.
Again, the dirty word I wastalking about is vulnerability.
Yes, I mean we can pick on thefirst responders, but I don't
know many people who are verycomfortable with vulnerability,
and bernie brown is I.
I I just wish I could meet heronce.
Um, yeah, I love bernie, surelove bernie, yeah yeah, um, but
(17:36):
I think the vulnerability partis so key.
The other part that I rememberfrom that special that is also
important for any type of people, but particularly first
responders is when she talks toher husband.
They've learned how to talkabout it, as the story I'm
telling myself is Whenever theyreact to something negatively.
(17:56):
And that way you can processwhat you're saying to yourself
and what you're saying about thesituation.
You're talking about what wesay to ourselves.
I know half the crap I say inmy head.
I would never say to gordon oranyone I love, um, frankly, even
people I don't love, I wouldn'tsay that and it's, that's that,
that whole the story I'mtelling myself, gordon, I'm.
(18:16):
The story I'm telling my rightnow myself is you're nodding,
but you think I'm stupid.
I'm like no, steve, I don'tthink you're stupid, but
sometimes you can't verify thatin the moment, and I get that.
But remind yourself of not onlythat vulnerability, it's also
sharing that story you'retelling yourself, and I think
that's part of a big key of whatBrene Brown talks about.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
And.
I think a lot of firstresponders struggle with that
Right right, yeah, and I thinkit's important to remember that
it's through vulnerability alsothat we build significant
relationships.
Yeah, well, anybody again I'mpreaching to the choir here with
(18:56):
people that are listeners.
Here, there's a bond that youhave with your workmates or
people that you've been inharm's way with and that you
know, that you know and youunderstand what it's like to
have gone through that, and youalso know that the other person
(19:17):
has got your back, that theother person has got your back,
and so the vulnerable part wouldbe, would come in when you can
get together with those peoplethose colleagues, those people
that you work with or friendsand talk about the stuff that
has happened.
And I think I dare say thatprobably, when people get the
(19:37):
courage to do that, what theyfind out is the people closest
to them are feeling just asscared and just as hurt by
situations as they arethemselves.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
And so, yeah, and that's how you it's also how you
heal is through care, communityand through, you know, sharing
your story and knowing thatyou're not alone I think that
that's exactly where, you know,part of what we did in
pre-interview is talking aboutthe stigma and I think that
sometimes it's thatvulnerability with a colleague.
That's also difficult becauseyou go on a call and the other
(20:10):
colleague's not affected andyou're kind of like inside of
you you're having trouble.
Well, I'm not going to tell himand if I go to therapy it's
going's going to look so-and-soand I'm like I tell him, I'm
like you'll see that when youopen up about something that
fucked you up, you will be ableto relate to the other person
Like oh good, I thought it wasjust me and there's a whole book
(20:30):
on I thought it was me and theother book that I, when you were
talking about the body, keepsthe score, which is the Bible of
trauma, and if people areinterested I'll put it in the
show notes.
But I think that what you know,that stigma is really hard.
I mean even I'll show you howyou know.
We're talking about firstresponders.
We're sitting there in a groupwith the psych craft network and
(20:50):
I was struggling with thedirection of my, my podcast.
It felt so vulnerable saying Idon't like what, what my podcast
is looking like.
I might need to change because,well, these guys know
everything, they have ittogether and this and that, and
I opened up and then again notnaming names because it's not
that's for them to talk almosteveryone was like, oh yeah, me
(21:12):
too, and I always I thought itwas me.
And learning to show thatvulnerability actually creates a
lot more bonding that peoplerealize.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Right, yeah, and that's the only way we get
through anything that is hard inlife is with community and with
the people that you surroundyourself with.
You know, I shared with Steveknows part of my story, but a
couple of years ago I lost mywife.
She had gone through a 13 yearbattle with breast cancer and
(21:44):
that sort of thing and you knowthe caregiving and all of that
sort of thing.
And people would ask me youknow, how did you do that?
And I said well, it was painful, but the only way I did it is
through my community, the peoplethat I surrounded myself with,
and just people that were therefor me.
(22:05):
There were no magic words thatthey said or anything, but I
just knew that they were present.
And so those are.
And finding people that arewilling to come and just do
literally anything for you Imean people.
Here's another thing thatcreates some courage.
You know.
I think, particularly ifthere's been a death or an
(22:27):
illness or something traumatichappened, people will say well,
let me know if I can do anythingfor you, and I think most
people are genuine about that.
But I think a mistake that alot of people make is no, I'm
fine, I don't need anything.
Well, take advantage of thatand and take the help that
(22:48):
they're going to offer.
I mean again, sharing a littlebit of my story is my wife was
in hospice care there towardsthe end and we after she day she
died.
One of my friends called me andsays Gordon, he says I really
mean it, what is there anythingI can do for you to help?
And I said, well, you know,what would be really nice is if
(23:10):
somebody, if we could get somepeople to come in and just take
down the hospital bed and allthe stuff that we had in the
living room, the oxygen and allthe stuff.
And within an hour there wereeight people in my home hauling
stuff out and taking things andputting it back like it was.
And I was just so grateful forthat.
(23:34):
And that was just.
For some people that might notseem like a big thing, but it
was huge for that.
And that was just that.
For some people that might notseem like a big thing, but it
was huge for me.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
The support from our community is always essential.
I mean, I even remember whenyou were talking to us privately
and again your story to telland about the difficulties that
were going on.
And you know, being there tojust have someone to listen to,
even if they don't do anything,just listening, sometimes is
like three quarters of thebattle.
Usually it's a half.
I say three quarters.
(24:01):
The other part too.
In the first responder worldone of the biggest things is
that you know, for the firstweek or two after some
significant event of a officeror a firefighter or medical
person passing away, everyone'sthere for the first two weeks.
And then after two weeks andI've dealt with widows, I've
dealt with other families likeno one's there Everyone says
(24:24):
I'll do something for you, I'lldo something for you, and then
after two weeks they forgetabout it.
And I remind people that youknow grief is not like after two
weeks, you're good, get back init's.
I mean, I'm still grieving theloss of my friend when I was 12.
I still am grieving the loss ofmy dad from close to 10 years
ago.
I'm grieving a whole lot ofdifferent people.
(24:46):
I'm not crying, I'm notactively upset, but there's days
where when people say what doyou wish for?
I'd kill a hug from mygrandmother and people are like
oh well, I know they're like,but that's grief.
Don't think it goes away.
It's not like a magic pill.
So I think to manage that toois let the family know after two
(25:07):
weeks, two months, whatever gocheck on them, see how they're
doing.
Uh, the first responder worldis superb to being there for the
first few weeks and after thatthey're not so good because they
get into their lives.
They got their own stuff goingon.
So that's the other part ofgrief that I kind of remind my
guys about.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Right, right.
Yeah, grief is not somethingyou get over.
It's something you move through,and I think that's something
for people to be aware of andknow it's you know, and if you,
if anybody has grieved or gonethrough the death, one of the
greatest things somebody can dois ask you about it.
(25:45):
I think a lot of times we weshy away from asking people
about, okay, how are you doing?
You know, or you know one ofthe things that that people
always ask.
You know, like, if there's beena death or something traumatic
and they'll you know, say, ofthe spouse or the close friends,
well, how are they doing?
Which is really just code, forI don't want to.
(26:08):
I don't necessarily want tohear about their grief, I just
want to.
I want to hear oh, they're okay, oh, I don't have to, I don't
have to be confronted with theirgrief.
But one of the things aboutgrief is that the greatest thing
you could do is just be presentwith someone.
You don't have to fix it,there's nothing you could fix.
(26:29):
I mean, particularly if there'sa death, you know they're dead,
you can't fix that.
And so just being present andjust being there and just being
able to say, let me just sitwith you, we don't have to say
anything, but I'll just be herewith you just to know you're not
alone, and that just goes sofar in helping people heal.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
The grief and the trauma are exactly that.
It doesn't even need to betalked about.
It's about being there for eachother.
I tell people just sit withthem.
What do I say?
You don't need to say nothing.
Hey, you know what?
I'm here, we'll watch a movieor we'll do whatever, but I'm
here, and sometimes even sittingin silence, going to a park or
whatever.
I know some people like to goto the grave.
(27:11):
No need to talk, you just needto be there and just having that
presence is a healing process.
Going through it, as you said,versus getting over it Right.
Well, gordon, I know that we'regetting close to time here.
I want to make sure we talkabout your stuff too, because I
talked about the PsycraftNetwork.
I'm a big fan obviously part ofit but I'd love to hear more
(27:34):
about you and what you're doingand what you're bringing to the
world, as you say on yourpodcast.
That I always love to hear fromyou.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Yeah, yes, yes, so, yeah.
So, as I mentioned, I'm amarriage and family therapist.
I have a small group practicein Kingsport, tennessee, which
is in the northeast corner ofTennessee, and I've got five
clinicians that work for me andjust really proud of my team of
people there at our littlepractice.
But I also have my own podcast,the Practice of Therapy, which
(28:02):
is really geared more towardstherapists and helping them with
the business side of running apractice, but also a lot of the
clinical issues that we'retalking, things that we're
talking about today.
So it's been there for a whilenow.
I've been.
It's hard to believe.
I started that podcast in 2017and here we're still going, so
it's almost not too far from the10 year mark, which is just
(28:26):
unbelievable.
But also, as Steve mentioned, Istarted in 2022, the Psychcraft
Network, and it is just anetwork of podcasters
independent podcasters that arein this space of psychology,
self-help, you know, businessbuilding and that kind of thing.
And, yeah, we've got some greatmembers of that and people can
(28:50):
find out more about that bygoing to just
sitecraftnetworkcom, and Steveis a member of the network.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
So, yeah, Very proud of it and, um, for those of you
who will, we could go to theyoutube channel for the psych
craft network we do lives Ithink we're going to get closer
to being more regular, but we'regoing to do lives and we talk
about different stuff.
For those of you who came forhere for trauma, grief and first
responder stuff, well, the goodnews about psych craft network
(29:19):
is I think every member touchesit a little bit and in their own
ways, and there's a practiceelevation, there's course
creation, there is how to manageyour business.
I know that julie was on jamespodcast recently.
Yes, you know, and I I thinkthat what I would argue as a
(29:39):
person who may be listening tothis go check it out.
There's got to be anotherpodcast for you.
If you have someone in yourlife, that means a lot.
There's an autism now that Iknow is part of the Psychcraft
Network, so I think that that'swhere, like Psychcraft Network,
is meant to be a supportivemental hall, and I think it's
important because it's not justme.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
There's so many other great services we offer.
Right, right, yeah, and I'mexcited about the YouTube lives
that we're going to be doing.
We're going to I think we'regoing to delve into a lot of
different topics, but just, Ithink, bringing some, some smart
people together and talkingabout what they know.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I love.
I love doing those lives,because, you know, I look at
this like craft network.
There's a lot of great people.
I'm the pain in the butt.
I opened my mouth a little toomuch.
I'm fine with it, by the way,I'm not opposed to it, I just.
It just makes everyone laughand we have a good time.
But we talk about serioustopics too and we want to help
people.
So that's the important part.
That's good.
Yeah Well, gordon, 100%.
(30:37):
Thank you again.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
And I appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yeah, thanks, steve, enjoyed talking with you and for
everyone else.
Appreciate your time too.
Well, that completes episode211.
If you want a deeper dive again, go and see RDA After Dark,
which is available.
I'm going to link it in theshow notes.
It's a little supplement and adeeper dive onto what me and
(31:01):
Gordon talked about, so I hopeyou go and check it out.
It's a paid subscription but Ithink it's going to be worth
your money, so I hope you go andlisten to it and I will see you
for episode 212.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(31:36):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi and welcome to Episode 211.
If you haven't listened toepisode 210, it was with the
mental men, the guys that youknow Bob, pat, dennis, andy and
Chris, just shooting the stuffabout retirement and how that
looks like and how it can bedifficult to lose those roles
really relatable for firstresponders.
But episode 211 will be withGordon Brewer.
(01:04):
I think that we want to talkabout a lot of different things.
He's someone who's been inpractice for over 30 years.
He's the lead of PsychcraftNetwork and I'm sure we're going
to talk about grief, trauma andstuff like that.
So here's the interview.
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(02:35):
that will save you time andmoney, and I highly encourage
you to do so.
Well, welcome everyone.
And I had Gordon on when it wascalled Finding your Way Through
Therapy and I believe that wasepisode 57, and I'm on 212.
So it's been a while since I'veseen Gordon and I'm so happy to
(02:57):
have Gordon Brewer, who is theleader of PsychGraph Network,
which I'm very proud to be partof, and great podcast there, and
I wanted to welcome him back toNow, resilience Development in
Action.
Leader of psych graph network,which I'm very proud to be part
of, and great podcast there, andI wanted to welcome them back
to now.
Resilience development in actionyes, glad to be here, steve yes
, you know what one of thethings that I, you know, we, we
were talking beforehand becausegordon and I, like I'd like to
(03:17):
consider us closer.
You know, good friends, at thispoint, we, we talk a lot and
you know, we obviously have verydifferent podcasts and I know a
lot of people who are listeningto this are going to be first
responders, and we were talkingabout like, oh geez, where can
we go with this?
One of the things that reallystruck me is that sometimes
people forget about the traumastuff and how it can manifest in
(03:38):
different ways.
Before we go there, though, Ishould ask you to introduce
yourself a little bit, in casepeople haven't heard the other
episode all right, all right.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well, thanks, steve, it's really good to be back on
on your podcast.
The new, revised maneuver newand improved resilience,
development and action.
I'm gordon brewer.
I'm a licensed marriage andfamily therapist.
I've been a therapist now foroh gosh, nearly 25 years now,
(04:09):
which is hard to believe when Istart thinking about that.
But yeah, and so one of thethings that I primarily focus on
is in my practice is, for mepersonally, is I work with a lot
of men, men that are strugglingwith, you know, different kinds
of trauma, but also just sexualfunction, all of that kind of
(04:32):
thing or things that I tend tohelp people with.
And I think you know mosttherapists are women we're in
the minority, steve, being menand so I think, a lot of men
that reach out to us and thatsort of thing, and you know,
thinking about first responders,one of the things that you know
(04:53):
we were thinking about beforewe are talking about before we
started recording, is just the.
I think a lot of times whenpeople come to therapists,
they're really carrying somevery heavy stuff and really some
maybe horrific situations thatthey've gone through.
(05:15):
I think one of the reluctanceto share is is they're not sure
if the person they're telling isgoing to be able to handle it.
They're worried abouttraumatizing the therapist or
that sort of thing, and so Ithink that's an interesting
phenomenon I was sharing withSteve, a client I had recently
who had been in a very traumaticshooting accident when he was a
(05:41):
child, and I think one of thereasons he told me the graphic
detail of that was he was justtesting me to see if I could
handle that, and so I think oneof the things I know we talked
about too, steve, is just, youknow, people maybe being
reluctant to go to therapy, andI think that might be one reason
(06:03):
there is just making surethey've got a therapist that
they know can help them process.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
You know, some really bad stuff when it happens, or
has happened and I think thatthat's what they worry so much
about for first responders ingeneral.
You know and first and foremost, me and Gordon also just want
to put it out there we don'tthink every first responder is
going to go through trauma, butthey will be in more difficult
(06:30):
experiences than the generalpopulations or civilians.
However, I think that whenthere's this, I don't know if
they can handle it.
It's a real phenomenon aboutthe cultural competency of
individuals.
You're talking about theshooting.
I also had a client tell me thatwhen they went to see a
therapist who was supposedly afirst responder therapist, they
(06:50):
were talking about a significantevent that they went through.
There was a call that went onand after they were done talking
about it, the therapist says Ineed a few minutes to process
this.
Well, how's that for a turnofffor any first responder Like you
can't handle it.
Well, now you prove that youcan't handle it.
You know, one of the things Iknow you also do is you work
(07:11):
with people who want to start.
You know the podcasting andhaving their experiences be
valued.
You know, I think that one ofthe things I find interesting is
that you talk about trauma.
We talk about grief and knowingwhat your competencies are and
not overreaching.
I think that that's a big issuesometimes with therapists and
that's why first responders theyget a little reluctant
(07:33):
sometimes to reach out, right,right.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
Yeah, and I think it's helpful to find in looking
for a therapist is to findsomeone that has had at least
some background in extremetrauma, whether they've been in
the military or whether theyhave been a first responder,
that sort of thing.
I think it goes a long way withbeing able to feel like the
(07:57):
person that you're talking totruly understands what it's like
.
You know, one of the thingsthat, although I was a first
responder for a short while whenI was in high school, I worked
for part of a volunteer rescuesquad in the town that I lived
in growing up and so got to dothat job for a short while.
(08:21):
But the other thing for me wasis later, my first career was as
a funeral funeral director infuneral homes, and so you get
you get hit with a lot of traumathere as well.
It's not not exactly the same,but you're around death and
those those kinds of things, andI think it's important to find
(08:42):
a therapist that has anunderstanding of okay, this is
what it might feel like when,when you've been faced with
something like that and alsojust knowing that you're not
going to like I'm repeatingmyself not going to traumatize
the therapist, and beingreassured of that when you're
telling having to you know,going through the process of
(09:05):
processing traumatic events.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I think that you said you know you're repeating
yourself, but I think it'simportant there's subtle
differences between grief andtrauma, and that is absolutely
true and I mean we can talkabout it here.
But ultimately, being a funeraldirector, you deal with the
grief and unfortunately,sometimes grief brings back past
traumas and what I find withthe first responders I think
(09:30):
about my medics and policeofficers sometimes they'll go to
a call of someone they weresuicidal two months ago, six
months ago, three years ago, andthen they go to a call where
the suicide actually occurredand then they have the grief
process and the whole having tothe call where the suicide
actually occurred.
And then you know they have thegrief process and the whole
having to do all that stuff.
But then it's like, oh crap, Ididn't, like I didn't.
You know I'm not saying thatthey have complexes, but
(09:53):
sometimes like, oh, I thought Isaved this guy, I thought I
helped him, what's wrong with me?
And then there's this grief andloss of that person that you
saved and I'm not put go toYouTube.
I'm putting this in quotationmarks, and I think that that
plays a factor too, because whenyou go to the funeral, I find
that people don't crynecessarily about just the
(10:13):
person in front of them.
They're talking about the otherparts that they've lost and all
that.
So there's subtle differences,but I think that we're in the
same page, that grief and traumais very similar.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Right, right, and I think the other thing to
recognize around grief andtrauma is it's something that
you actually carry in your body.
I mean, there's been a lot ofstudies around this and a lot of
information about how grief andtrauma affects people
physiologically and that youreally do carry it in your body.
And there's also the triggersthat come up.
(10:48):
Anybody that's worked in griefand trauma talks about triggers
and just things that can happenthat maybe are not related, but
your brain goes into overdrive,so to speak.
You know responding todifficult situations as if they
were dangerous.
But I think you know one of thethings that I think is a good
(11:11):
thing for anybody to do, whetherthey're first responders or not
, is to learn as much as you canabout something we refer to as
emotional intelligence, of beingable to know how to just handle
emotions.
And unfortunately the word no,we're not.
(11:32):
Nobody is given an instruction,instruction manual on that, but
I've got a cat here, so there'san instruction manual that came
with the cat yeah, no, no, sobut uh, yeah, uh yeah, about
handle, how to handle emotions,and I think a lot of people, how
we learn, that is what we've,you know, we learn from our
(11:53):
family of origin and that sortof thing, and so finding mentors
or people that you can, um, youcan, you can talk to uh and
just learn how to centeryourself, how to regulate your
own emotions well, and so, again, easier said than done, but
that's where a therapist cancome in and teach you some
(12:14):
different things and differenttechniques and different
strategies for handling the bigemotions that come up when there
is trauma or grief that we'redealing with.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I think that there's so many things.
I want to go on here and I'lllet you decide where you want to
go, because emotionalintelligence one of the things
that I suddenly talk about isWith people in the first
responder world.
Anger is acceptable, happinessis acceptable, the rest of it
not so much.
And having the emotionalintelligence is maybe you don't
display it, but you'reacknowledging that there was a
(12:48):
surprise, there was a fearinvolved, there was other
emotions, and then processingthem afterwards.
I have that conversationconstantly, like not everything
is just two emotions and it'susually more complex than that
and acknowledge that and thenyou don't need to like cry on
scene or some shit, but at theend of the day, you got to be
able to have that emotionalintelligence of recognizing oh,
(13:10):
the reason why I'm feeling soangry is I was scared and
nothing happened.
Oh, so there's fear.
Okay, let's process that fear.
It actually helps things notbecome trauma but acute stress
disorder.
Process that fear.
It actually helps things notbecome trauma but acute stress
disorder.
The other thing I was mentioningabout grief and you talked
about the grief.
You know, I've been throughgrief, you've been through grief
and I'm going to leave it asvague as I possibly can here,
unless you want to talk morespecifically.
(13:31):
But I have a therapist to helpme through my grief.
While I'm very competent withother people and their grief and
most people would say thatabout me I need help too, and I
don't have any pride anymore.
I used to be a little pridefulabout these things.
Nowadays I'm like yeah, I seemy therapist regularly.
Joe smacks me around when heneeds to, supports me when I
need to, and he seems to know itbetter than I do, so it's
(13:54):
always helpful.
So I don't know where you wantto go.
But those are the two thingsthat came to mind when you were
talking.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Yeah, I think it's so important to find people in
your life and therapists aretrained to do this but find a
person that you can be brutallyhonest with, talk about your
internal world in a way that isnot going to be judged, in a way
that is not going to be judged,not going to be put any sort of
(14:21):
, you know, stigmas on it oranything like that.
Being able to just process it,and that's such a huge thing for
people.
I think that's where healingcomes is to be able to tell the
story about what has happenedwithout there being a lot of the
(14:41):
judgment that gets laid on that.
And you know, unfortunately,most of the judgment that people
have is comes from within.
It's not the people they'retelling or the people that
they're sharing things with thatjudge, but we judge ourselves,
and so being able to understandthat and being able to recognize
(15:02):
that we're all broken andfragile people, regardless of
what people might see on theoutside, all of us are
vulnerable, and it's whenvulnerability occurs is when we
actually find courage.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
There was a you just said a very dirty word there,
Gordon, but I'll let you go.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Yeah, so well, one of the things— where I was going
to go there with that is a fewyears ago I watched—I think it
was on Netflix and it was byBrene Brown and the title of it
was something— it had somethingwith courage in it.
But one of the things, one ofthe things that she mentions in
(15:47):
there, which is so true, is youcannot have courage without
vulnerability.
If you think and I rememberthere was somebody in the
audience that I believe it was aservice member, a Marine or
something who had been in harm'sway and they were talking about
you know what that, what thatfelt like, and that you're
(16:09):
totally vulnerable and totallyscared.
But without that you can't havecourage.
And so that doesn't mean youput on the stiff upper lip and
pretend like you're not feelingscared or feeling hurt or
whatever, but you and anybodythat's a first responder has
experienced this is that you gointo situations that are either
(16:32):
life-threatening or dangerous,or people could get hurt, or
somebody's about to bleed out,or themselves hurt or somebody's
about to bleed out orthemselves yeah, are there, are
there about to die, or they'rehaving to do CPR on somebody or
whatever.
That's scary as hell and that's,and yet the adrenaline's going
(16:55):
and all of that sort of thing,and it's a very vulnerable
moment.
But the people, we have theability to push through and do
the job, so to speak.
But just because we do the jobdoesn't negate the fact that we
had those feelings of fear andthat sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I mean it goes.
There's so many things.
Again, the dirty word I wastalking about is vulnerability.
Yes, I mean we can pick on thefirst responders, but I don't
know many people who are verycomfortable with vulnerability,
and bernie brown is I.
I I just wish I could meet heronce.
Um, yeah, I love bernie, surelove bernie, yeah yeah, um, but
(17:36):
I think the vulnerability partis so key.
The other part that I rememberfrom that special that is also
important for any type of people, but particularly first
responders is when she talks toher husband.
They've learned how to talkabout it, as the story I'm
telling myself is Whenever theyreact to something negatively.
(17:56):
And that way you can processwhat you're saying to yourself
and what you're saying about thesituation.
You're talking about what wesay to ourselves.
I know half the crap I say inmy head.
I would never say to gordon oranyone I love, um, frankly, even
people I don't love, I wouldn'tsay that and it's, that's that,
that whole the story I'mtelling myself, gordon, I'm.
(18:16):
The story I'm telling my rightnow myself is you're nodding,
but you think I'm stupid.
I'm like no, steve, I don'tthink you're stupid, but
sometimes you can't verify thatin the moment, and I get that.
But remind yourself of not onlythat vulnerability, it's also
sharing that story you'retelling yourself, and I think
that's part of a big key of whatBrene Brown talks about.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
And.
I think a lot of firstresponders struggle with that
Right right, yeah, and I thinkit's important to remember that
it's through vulnerability alsothat we build significant
relationships.
Yeah, well, anybody again I'mpreaching to the choir here with
(18:56):
people that are listeners.
Here, there's a bond that youhave with your workmates or
people that you've been inharm's way with and that you
know, that you know and youunderstand what it's like to
have gone through that, and youalso know that the other person
(19:17):
has got your back, that theother person has got your back,
and so the vulnerable part wouldbe, would come in when you can
get together with those peoplethose colleagues, those people
that you work with or friendsand talk about the stuff that
has happened.
And I think I dare say thatprobably, when people get the
(19:37):
courage to do that, what theyfind out is the people closest
to them are feeling just asscared and just as hurt by
situations as they arethemselves.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
And so, yeah, and that's how you it's also how you
heal is through care, communityand through, you know, sharing
your story and knowing thatyou're not alone I think that
that's exactly where, you know,part of what we did in
pre-interview is talking aboutthe stigma and I think that
sometimes it's thatvulnerability with a colleague.
That's also difficult becauseyou go on a call and the other
(20:10):
colleague's not affected andyou're kind of like inside of
you you're having trouble.
Well, I'm not going to tell himand if I go to therapy it's
going's going to look so-and-soand I'm like I tell him, I'm
like you'll see that when youopen up about something that
fucked you up, you will be ableto relate to the other person
Like oh good, I thought it wasjust me and there's a whole book
(20:30):
on I thought it was me and theother book that I, when you were
talking about the body, keepsthe score, which is the Bible of
trauma, and if people areinterested I'll put it in the
show notes.
But I think that what you know,that stigma is really hard.
I mean even I'll show you howyou know.
We're talking about firstresponders.
We're sitting there in a groupwith the psych craft network and
(20:50):
I was struggling with thedirection of my, my podcast.
It felt so vulnerable saying Idon't like what, what my podcast
is looking like.
I might need to change because,well, these guys know
everything, they have ittogether and this and that, and
I opened up and then again notnaming names because it's not
that's for them to talk almosteveryone was like, oh yeah, me
(21:12):
too, and I always I thought itwas me.
And learning to show thatvulnerability actually creates a
lot more bonding that peoplerealize.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Right, yeah, and that's the only way we get
through anything that is hard inlife is with community and with
the people that you surroundyourself with.
You know, I shared with Steveknows part of my story, but a
couple of years ago I lost mywife.
She had gone through a 13 yearbattle with breast cancer and
(21:44):
that sort of thing and you knowthe caregiving and all of that
sort of thing.
And people would ask me youknow, how did you do that?
And I said well, it was painful, but the only way I did it is
through my community, the peoplethat I surrounded myself with,
and just people that were therefor me.
(22:05):
There were no magic words thatthey said or anything, but I
just knew that they were present.
And so those are.
And finding people that arewilling to come and just do
literally anything for you Imean people.
Here's another thing thatcreates some courage.
You know.
I think, particularly ifthere's been a death or an
(22:27):
illness or something traumatichappened, people will say well,
let me know if I can do anythingfor you, and I think most
people are genuine about that.
But I think a mistake that alot of people make is no, I'm
fine, I don't need anything.
Well, take advantage of thatand and take the help that
(22:48):
they're going to offer.
I mean again, sharing a littlebit of my story is my wife was
in hospice care there towardsthe end and we after she day she
died.
One of my friends called me andsays Gordon, he says I really
mean it, what is there anythingI can do for you to help?
And I said, well, you know,what would be really nice is if
(23:10):
somebody, if we could get somepeople to come in and just take
down the hospital bed and allthe stuff that we had in the
living room, the oxygen and allthe stuff.
And within an hour there wereeight people in my home hauling
stuff out and taking things andputting it back like it was.
And I was just so grateful forthat.
(23:34):
And that was just.
For some people that might notseem like a big thing, but it
was huge for that.
And that was just that.
For some people that might notseem like a big thing, but it
was huge for me.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
The support from our community is always essential.
I mean, I even remember whenyou were talking to us privately
and again your story to telland about the difficulties that
were going on.
And you know, being there tojust have someone to listen to,
even if they don't do anything,just listening, sometimes is
like three quarters of thebattle.
Usually it's a half.
I say three quarters.
(24:01):
The other part too.
In the first responder worldone of the biggest things is
that you know, for the firstweek or two after some
significant event of a officeror a firefighter or medical
person passing away, everyone'sthere for the first two weeks.
And then after two weeks andI've dealt with widows, I've
dealt with other families likeno one's there Everyone says
(24:24):
I'll do something for you, I'lldo something for you, and then
after two weeks they forgetabout it.
And I remind people that youknow grief is not like after two
weeks, you're good, get back init's.
I mean, I'm still grieving theloss of my friend when I was 12.
I still am grieving the loss ofmy dad from close to 10 years
ago.
I'm grieving a whole lot ofdifferent people.
(24:46):
I'm not crying, I'm notactively upset, but there's days
where when people say what doyou wish for?
I'd kill a hug from mygrandmother and people are like
oh well, I know they're like,but that's grief.
Don't think it goes away.
It's not like a magic pill.
So I think to manage that toois let the family know after two
(25:07):
weeks, two months, whatever gocheck on them, see how they're
doing.
Uh, the first responder worldis superb to being there for the
first few weeks and after thatthey're not so good because they
get into their lives.
They got their own stuff goingon.
So that's the other part ofgrief that I kind of remind my
guys about.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Right, right.
Yeah, grief is not somethingyou get over.
It's something you move through,and I think that's something
for people to be aware of andknow it's you know, and if you,
if anybody has grieved or gonethrough the death, one of the
greatest things somebody can dois ask you about it.
(25:45):
I think a lot of times we weshy away from asking people
about, okay, how are you doing?
You know, or you know one ofthe things that that people
always ask.
You know, like, if there's beena death or something traumatic
and they'll you know, say, ofthe spouse or the close friends,
well, how are they doing?
Which is really just code, forI don't want to.
(26:08):
I don't necessarily want tohear about their grief, I just
want to.
I want to hear oh, they're okay, oh, I don't have to, I don't
have to be confronted with theirgrief.
But one of the things aboutgrief is that the greatest thing
you could do is just be presentwith someone.
You don't have to fix it,there's nothing you could fix.
(26:29):
I mean, particularly if there'sa death, you know they're dead,
you can't fix that.
And so just being present andjust being there and just being
able to say, let me just sitwith you, we don't have to say
anything, but I'll just be herewith you just to know you're not
alone, and that just goes sofar in helping people heal.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
The grief and the trauma are exactly that.
It doesn't even need to betalked about.
It's about being there for eachother.
I tell people just sit withthem.
What do I say?
You don't need to say nothing.
Hey, you know what?
I'm here, we'll watch a movieor we'll do whatever, but I'm
here, and sometimes even sittingin silence, going to a park or
whatever.
I know some people like to goto the grave.
(27:11):
No need to talk, you just needto be there and just having that
presence is a healing process.
Going through it, as you said,versus getting over it Right.
Well, gordon, I know that we'regetting close to time here.
I want to make sure we talkabout your stuff too, because I
talked about the PsycraftNetwork.
I'm a big fan obviously part ofit but I'd love to hear more
(27:34):
about you and what you're doingand what you're bringing to the
world, as you say on yourpodcast.
That I always love to hear fromyou.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Yeah, yes, yes, so, yeah.
So, as I mentioned, I'm amarriage and family therapist.
I have a small group practicein Kingsport, tennessee, which
is in the northeast corner ofTennessee, and I've got five
clinicians that work for me andjust really proud of my team of
people there at our littlepractice.
But I also have my own podcast,the Practice of Therapy, which
(28:02):
is really geared more towardstherapists and helping them with
the business side of running apractice, but also a lot of the
clinical issues that we'retalking, things that we're
talking about today.
So it's been there for a whilenow.
I've been.
It's hard to believe.
I started that podcast in 2017and here we're still going, so
it's almost not too far from the10 year mark, which is just
(28:26):
unbelievable.
But also, as Steve mentioned, Istarted in 2022, the Psychcraft
Network, and it is just anetwork of podcasters
independent podcasters that arein this space of psychology,
self-help, you know, businessbuilding and that kind of thing.
And, yeah, we've got some greatmembers of that and people can
(28:50):
find out more about that bygoing to just
sitecraftnetworkcom, and Steveis a member of the network.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
So, yeah, Very proud of it and, um, for those of you
who will, we could go to theyoutube channel for the psych
craft network we do lives Ithink we're going to get closer
to being more regular, but we'regoing to do lives and we talk
about different stuff.
For those of you who came forhere for trauma, grief and first
responder stuff, well, the goodnews about psych craft network
(29:19):
is I think every member touchesit a little bit and in their own
ways, and there's a practiceelevation, there's course
creation, there is how to manageyour business.
I know that julie was on jamespodcast recently.
Yes, you know, and I I thinkthat what I would argue as a
(29:39):
person who may be listening tothis go check it out.
There's got to be anotherpodcast for you.
If you have someone in yourlife, that means a lot.
There's an autism now that Iknow is part of the Psychcraft
Network, so I think that that'swhere, like Psychcraft Network,
is meant to be a supportivemental hall, and I think it's
important because it's not justme.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
There's so many other great services we offer.
Right, right, yeah, and I'mexcited about the YouTube lives
that we're going to be doing.
We're going to I think we'regoing to delve into a lot of
different topics, but just, Ithink, bringing some, some smart
people together and talkingabout what they know.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
I love.
I love doing those lives,because, you know, I look at
this like craft network.
There's a lot of great people.
I'm the pain in the butt.
I opened my mouth a little toomuch.
I'm fine with it, by the way,I'm not opposed to it, I just.
It just makes everyone laughand we have a good time.
But we talk about serioustopics too and we want to help
people.
So that's the important part.
That's good.
Yeah Well, gordon, 100%.
(30:37):
Thank you again.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
And I appreciate your time.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Yeah, thanks, steve, enjoyed talking with you and for
everyone else.
Appreciate your time too.
Well, that completes episode211.
If you want a deeper dive again, go and see RDA After Dark,
which is available.
I'm going to link it in theshow notes.
It's a little supplement and adeeper dive onto what me and
(31:01):
Gordon talked about, so I hopeyou go and check it out.
It's a paid subscription but Ithink it's going to be worth
your money, so I hope you go andlisten to it and I will see you
for episode 212.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(31:36):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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