July 9, 2025 • 33 mins
What does authentic masculinity look like in a world that teaches boys to hide their emotions from an early age? Leadership coach Lee Povey takes us on his transformative journey from needing to be the hero in every relationship to discovering the profound power of vulnerability.
Growing up with a narcissistic father who saw Lee's achievements only as extensions of himself left him with a deep question that persists even at 52 years old: what does it really mean to be a man? His search led him to therapy and men's groups where he discovered what had been missing—the ability to be seen, heard, and guided by older men who accepted him fully.
This conversation takes a dramatic turn when Lee reveals how a devastating cycling accident in 2010 forced him to confront his inability to ask for help. "I wanted to be always okay and I wanted you to be not okay so I could save you," he shares, describing how this "hero complex" had sabotaged his relationships and limited his growth. The vulnerability required during his recovery ultimately transformed every aspect of his life.
Both Steve and Lee explore why men struggle with emotional expression, introducing practical approaches for reclaiming our full emotional range. Lee's "cookie jar" analogy brilliantly illustrates how we lose capacity for feedback when we experience too much criticism without sufficient acknowledgment. The key to effective men's groups? Creating judgment-free spaces where men can first be heard before receiving guidance.
Whether you work with men professionally or are simply interested in developing greater emotional intelligence, this episode offers profound insights into creating spaces where vulnerability becomes strength. As Steve powerfully states, "If you ever make fun of my vulnerability, you're the asshole, not me."
Join us to discover how embracing our full humanity—including the emotions we've been taught to suppress—leads to more authentic connections, better leadership, and greater resilience in the face of life's challenges.
This discussion will continue on episode 215!
To connect with Lee, go to his website at www.leepovey.com
Freed.ai: We’ll Do Your SOAP Notes!Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 212.
If you haven't listened toepisode 211, it's with Gordon
Brewer.
Gordon is, you know came back.
We talked about grief.
He used to run a funeral home.
He talked about that.
He talked about the stress thefirst responders face, the
trauma that they see, among manyother things.
So I hope you go listen to itthen.
But for episode 212, we aregoing to be talking to Lee Povey
(01:05):
.
Lee Povey is a high performanceleadership coach, specializing
in working with founders andstartups.
He's a lifelong entrepreneur,formerly elite cycling person.
He also does a lot of help withhigh achievers and helps them
motivate, lead and give themfeedback.
And as a podcast guest, hewants to be able to use his
Olympic sport experience and thebusiness world to discuss how
(01:28):
to find more joy and success,particularly with groups, and
I'm hoping that we talk aboutmen's groups particularly.
So here is the interviewGetfreeai you heard me talk
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(03:02):
you to do so.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 212.
Before we start, I want to givethis tribute to one of my
fallen colleagues, who was aparole officer, and I worked
with him for several years.
He passed away on Sunday, june30th 2025.
Joe Conner, this episode's foryou.
Rest in peace, brother, missyou, we'll always miss you, and
(03:24):
God bless.
Having said that, let's get backto the show.
On the road here, I'm happy toreally introduce someone that we
just had, a 23.
I never have these longpre-interviews.
We just talked and talked.
I'm like I probably shouldpress record at this point,
because it was such a commonconversation of how men's group
(03:45):
can help, how empathy can helpand how being able to not be
siloed really helps us see otherpeople's point of view in a
different light.
And, um, yeah, it had to take.
It'd be the commonwealth, uh,working on this, but uh, lee
povey, welcome to resilience,developmentience, developed and
in Action.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Thank you, steve, lovely to be here with you and
sorry for your loss.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Thank you.
It's, you know, without goingtoo long on him, a guy who was
really doubting the help thatmental health and substance
abuse can do for his guys sawthe good in me and never gave up
and became a big proponent.
You cannot replace a guy likethat, you just can't.
So, um, and he was fairly youngtoo, which is unfortunate.
(04:30):
Also that of cancer, um, sothank you.
But, lee, we I got to know youvery well and I, truthfully to
our audience, I have a projectgoing with him, probably in the
next few months or years.
That's how excited I am for youguys to get to know Lee.
(04:52):
But, lee, how about you tellpeople about yourself a little
bit, so that way?
Speaker 3 (04:54):
they know who they're listening to.
Yeah, where would you like meto start, steve?
There's a bit of story here.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Well, for me, I think that who you are as a human
being is key to think aboutwhere know where you come from,
what you're doing now and whatyou hope to accomplish.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Until you know, we all become dust yeah, okay, uh,
product of a narcissistic,sociopathic father, and you know
I don't say that like the, thetrendy tiktok kids he really was
.
You know this was clinicallydiagnosable behavior.
Did not care about anybody buthimself saw me and, uh, the rest
(05:29):
of his children as an extensionof himself.
He would talk about me winningraces, as you know, his good
sperm and stuff like that, andwouldn't actually ever say well
done to me.
He would just talk about me toother people as an extension of
himself and how to kind ofinflate his own ego.
So at a fairly young age, youknow I was smart, so I figured
(05:50):
out pretty young that I didn'twant to be like him, but I
didn't really know what I wantedto be like and who I wanted to
be, and I had a very strongvision of right and wrong, but I
didn't really know what itmeant to be a man.
And even now, 52 years I'm 52years old I'm still trying to
figure that out and I find thatquestion really interesting.
When people say what's a manI'm like, well, I don't really
(06:13):
know, uh, and people have theseroot answers of oh, it's this,
or it's provider, it's aprotector, and I look at the
guys that turn up in my men'sgroup and they're all so
different and it's all valid andI think we'll get to that in a
moment.
So anyway, I had this childhoodexperience that was difficult
and luckily I had a very lovingmother that that helped me and
(06:33):
guided me and, as we were sayingjust before the show started,
recently moved in with me, whichis wonderful and it kind of set
me up with a lot of love.
But I was struggling to connectwith, know how to connect with
men and have the relationshipsthat I wanted with men
especially.
This journey led me to atherapist who was wonderful.
(06:57):
I got incredibly lucky.
The first therapist I workedwith was a genius and just an
awesome human being and he ledme to men's groups.
He was in men's groups himself.
He was a leader of just anawesome human being and he led
me to men's groups.
He was in men's groups himself.
He was a leader of the localgroup and he led me to men's
groups.
And I got again very lucky thatthe first men's group I joined
there was a lot of older, wisermen.
(07:17):
I was the youngest guy in it Iwas in my early 20s at this time
and even though I'm a naturalleader and and became a natural
leader of the group and kind ofpushed the dynamics of the group
, because that's the annoyingperson that I am.
I had this wonderful experienceof older men loving me, seeing
me, allowing me to develop andshare of myself and giving me
(07:38):
the feedback that I wanted andneeded to hear and needed to
develop the ability to hear.
Uh, while this was going on, Iwas, um an elite athlete.
I realized I wasn't going to bean olympian.
I just didn't quite have thatlevel of talent.
I'm like a good national levelrider, but I'm not.
I know I'm not.
I'm not going to go win a goldmedal at olympics, and at that
(07:59):
time in the uk there was verylittle funding in my sport track
sprint cycling so it wasn't aviable career.
Now it is, even if you're notquite going to be olympic
champion.
It's a career path that wasn'topen to me.
Um, family was poor, so I didwhat many young people do who
are smart but don't have a greateducation, and we can maybe
(08:21):
talk about that sometime.
I'm autistic and dyslexic,which made school challenging
for me.
They didn't know this.
I've only discovered both ofthose things fairly recently,
but it makes a ton of sense whyschool was I was either the
smartest person in the room or Icouldn't learn, and the way
that they were teaching me justdidn't work for me.
12 years in real estate, sixyears with a large corporate
(08:45):
company, which is actually agood experience for me, and I
learned a ton and I luckily hadsome good leaders whose impact I
still feel now as a leadershipcoach.
And then I had my own companyand had to learn a lot about how
to lead and develop and build,and I started up pretty young
this was still in mymid-twenties.
I started my own companyEventually.
Eventually I sold that companyjust before the property crash
(09:06):
in 2008.
I could see it coming and Istill got lucky and I moved into
cycling coaching and I wascoaching young athletes
part-time for fun and I turnedit into a profession, ended up
becoming the national team coach, usa cycling's olymp
Development Program, which was apathway program to the LA 2028
Games, and I loved that work somuch.
(09:30):
However, I knew there wassomething bigger.
I'm only working with like 10to 12 athletes at a time and I
felt a calling to have moreimpact than that.
I needed to have more impact.
And then COVID came.
That program got shut downduring COVID and I'm sitting
there going what's next?
I heard a podcast from aleadership coach.
Didn't even know that existed.
(09:50):
I thought sometime I might be aconsultant from all of my
entrepreneurial work, but Ididn't know leadership coaching
existed and I listened to thispodcast, shared it with my wife.
My wife's a psychotherapist.
We have a private psychotherapypractice as well, we need the
sympathies.
You're welcome.
I said in my wedding vows toeverybody no, I'm not her
(10:11):
project, um.
And I had this moment ofrealization this is it.
This is what my life has beenbuilt into.
It's.
It's this kind of emotionalcoaching.
And then I just needed to findmy niche.
My niche is working with men ingroups and working with scale
up companies on their leadershipand working with their
(10:32):
executive teams and helping themall be more connected and work
better with each other, andthat's how we've ended up where
I am today.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Well, there's so many things you said that I want to
go for the wife therapist thing.
I get it.
When I started dating after mydivorce I had someone who
basically said well, you're atherapist, help my family.
I'm like, ooh, that's no, no.
So in one of my profiles itsaid I'm a therapist, but I am
not your therapist, yeah, atherapist, yeah.
(11:07):
And my girlfriend still to thisday jokes around around that
way.
So I figured you'd like thatstory.
You know, you mentionedsomething that maybe we can jump
off.
That I really, really enjoyed isthat you joined a men's group,
which is, you know, one of myquestions I had is if you've
ever been in the men's group.
So that answers that.
And you said they gave youfeedback you needed.
I would argue that a good groupwill give you feedback.
You didn't want to hear, butyou needed.
(11:28):
I think that there's adistinction between the two,
because sometimes we want to bevalidated, but sometimes we have
a bunch of group that guys aregoing to like don't fucking
shovel me bullshit and tell methat this is the greatest thing
in the world, and I think thatthat's a little bit of like that
dynamic that I wanted to maybeaddress with you a little more.
You know sometimes the feedbackis needed, sometimes it's not
(11:48):
wanted but it's received.
So how do you navigate all that?
Because I know that I run agroup for first responders.
I've actually run two groupsfor first responders and that's
the greatest thing in the worldwhen guys go bullshit and to me
that's like the dynamic that itcreates and within the group is
amazing.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
As a human being.
One of my gifts is I can seethe stuff that you can't see
about yourself.
I've always had that gift froma young man and I've wielded
that gift clumsily and sometimesspitefully.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Thank you Dan.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Yeah, absolutely, and as I've got older, I've
realized that's not effective.
And even sometimes, you know,when I wielded it clumsily,
there was good heart there.
I'd go up to an athlete at avelodrome and say, hey, why are
you doing it like this?
Why don't you do it like that?
Instead, you'll be faster.
I had no rapport, the messagingwas poor, I hadn't built any
(12:44):
trust and safety and I'm justtelling them they're wrong.
So you know they're leaving theexchange just feeling lesser
than and I've had no impact,because they haven't actually
absorbed the wisdom that I'vegot to share with them and I was
sharing something relevant,like I.
This is the better way of doingit.
My athletes were supersuccessful, broke hundreds of
(13:05):
national and world records, soI'm giving you good advice, but
the way I delivered it was sopoor and I've had to study how
to deliver feedback to the pointnow that I'm known as a world
expert on delivering feedbackand I run workshops on
delivering feedback because Iwas so poor at it, steve.
So being able to see doesn'tmean that you can actually teach
(13:26):
and it doesn't mean that youcan share in a way that's
impactful.
So I had to learn that andthat's what people come to me
for now they come to me for thestuff they can't see or the
others are afraid to tell themor don't have the skill set to
tell them in a way that'simpactful.
So let's tie that to groups.
There is a way that you cancreate safety and trust and
belief that that person isgiving me loving feedback so
(13:48):
that even if the feedback stingsa bit and you're like, oh, I
feel very seen right now.
Oh, that hurts, that's the partof my personality I don't like
and you're reflecting it to me.
Oof, that hurts that you cansit there with it and go.
Thank you, I needed that.
Some of the work that I've donewith coaches, with myself, and I
do with my clients and I do inmy men's groups, is this shadow
(14:11):
work where we talk about whatare your genetic personality
traits.
So we start with what is itthat you bring to the world?
And we're all different and wehave different genetic
personality traits.
Anyone who's a parent knowsthis.
Your children are different,same genetic matter, like same
mom and dad, yet they havedeveloped uh, them develop.
(14:32):
They're born with differentskill sets, are born with
different personality traits,and then the world meets them.
You might be a super curiouskid and there's lots of ways the
world can meet that.
The world can be like you'retoo much shut up so you dim that
light and it becomes a burdenrather than a gift.
Or the world might meet you andsay that's wonderful, tell me
(14:53):
more.
Or ask me more questions, orhere's how you learn.
That person's the person thatgoes on and goes and invents a
bunch of things.
The other person's if somebodyends up being depressed and
they're not allowed to sharethat gift.
So my gift is I'm very, verysmart, perceptive.
However, I would use that tocontrol people, to be safe.
That's how I kept myself safefrom my dad.
(15:14):
It's also linked to my autism,where I need certain physical
safety.
I need certain sensory safety.
So one of my shadows istyrannical Einstein.
That's what me and my coachescame up with a name for it and
it's I use my intelligence, theEinstein part, and Einstein's
also well known as a very lovingman, which I am, so it's kind
(15:35):
of connected to that.
But there's a tyrant part thatgoes with it to control people,
to get what I want, to pushpeople into areas that I want
them in.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Well, one of us would call that intellectualization,
but that might be my Freudianside.
But there's so many things likethis is awesome because you
talk about delivering feedback.
You know, one of my all-timefavorite sayings is from Brene
Brown, and Brene Brown sayshonesty without hack is cruelty
(16:09):
Absolutely.
And Brene is one of my favoritepeople in the world.
I never met her.
I hope I do one day.
But I tell people that you knowthey like, oh, you deliver
honestly, but you're not mean.
I'm like, yeah, because I usedto hack, I mean and I also match
you.
So if you need a little moredirect, you're direct.
If you need a little moreflowery, you're flowery.
I'm not much of a flower, butI'll do it.
(16:37):
And I think that that's what Italk about when you talk about
delivering feedback, and I don'tknow what your thoughts on that
are.
But before we go to that,there's so many things you
mentioned too the curiosityfactor for kids to adults, to
how you grow in your career, andwhat I tell people is, as a
like what I liked about my bestfirst responders, who continue
to grow in their career.
They're the ones who keep onbeing curious about learning
different things.
As a therapist, what I'velearned to say is what I know
(17:04):
fits in a thimble.
It's about this big and it's asbig as the world.
So this is how much I know andtherefore I want to learn from
everyone, and I think that beingable to be curious throughout
your life shows a side of notonly do you become a good leader
, you become a good human being,and I know pre-interview we
were talking about being goodhuman beings first and foremost
as an important factor in life,but I don't know where you want
to go with what I just said.
(17:25):
But that's definitely like myBrene Brown thing has always
been one of my favorite sayingsto tell people yeah, you and you
know, part of it for me was tofeel safe.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
I needed to feel smarter than you.
I think because of my I don'tthink it's related to stuff with
my dad, I think this is relatedto my autism and dyslexia that
there were moments wherelearning was very difficult for
me and I knew I was smart but Icouldn't always display it, and
(17:54):
because of that I think I tookon this belief that I had to
always show you how smart I amand therefore, you know I'm
going to point out the thingsthat you can't see about
yourself, that you don'tunderstand, because, hey, that
puts me in a one up position,and Terry Reels, the therapist,
talks about this a lot, aboutthe one up, one down position,
and I used to get a lot fromthat and I crashed in 2010.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Can you explain that a little bit for people?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
yeah, so yeah, so you know there's.
There's various models for it.
The drama triangle is a goodmodel for it, where you've got
the hero position and the victimposition.
The hero is one up and thevictim is one down, so you make
yourself feel okay by.
I am better than you.
Then you've got, uh ta, thetransactional analysis version
as well.
We got a parent adult child, soyou take a parent position and
(18:38):
force somebody else to be achild instead of two adults
facing each other and equalrelationships, and I realized
that I was creating theserelationships where I was the
hero because it made me feelwanted, it made me feel smart,
and then I was attracting peoplethat wanted to be rescued.
And I crashed in 2010 and brokemy shoulder very badly and it
was the first time in my lifewhere I was truly vulnerable.
(19:00):
You know I'd had vulnerablemoments before breakups and
things like that, but it hadn'tmade me really face myself for
my own vulnerability in that way.
So I had this crash.
My arm was really badly damagedand I didn't know if it was
going to work properly again.
I ended up having to have tworeconstructive surgeries before
it did, and it was one of thelowest periods of my life and
(19:22):
also one of the best, when Ireflect back now, because of
what it taught me.
And what it taught me was I wasterrible about asking for help.
I wanted to be always okay andI wanted you to be not okay so I
could save you.
And that made me feel secure.
And I had this realization thatwas not serving me at all the
woman I was dating at the time.
(19:42):
We'd been together four years.
Within two months, we weresplit up because I was like, oh,
our relationship only workswhen I'm the hero and she's
vulnerable.
When I'm vulnerable, it doesn'twork.
She doesn't know what to dowith it.
She doesn't know how to meet methere, and I don't blame her
for this at all.
I'd created that.
Um, so I, I I left thatrelationship and I had to
renegotiate a bunch offriendships.
(20:03):
I asked one of my friends totake me to the hospital and he
said well, just get a cab, it'sa mile away.
And I was like, oh, okay.
What I didn't realize is what Iwas actually asking was I need
you to come and hold my handbecause I'm really bloody scared
.
I've never had an operationbefore.
I'd crashed a bunch of timesand got patched up by my local
(20:23):
doctor.
I'd never had to have anoperation, never had an
anesthetic, and I was scared themost scared I'd been in my life
and I didn't even really knowhow to say that at that point,
like, oh my god, I'm reallyscared.
But I'm sitting in the hospitalroom absolutely petrified, and
that's when it hit me I need tobe able to tell people that I
need to be able to ask forsupport, even if it's just
(20:44):
someone to hold my hand.
So the second operation, I hadfive of my friends come with me
and I didn't even really needthat many friends, but they just
saw me and I asked for it, andit was a wonderful experience
for me to be held by otherpeople instead of it always
being the other way around.
And it taught me as well thatthere's so much strength in
vulnerability, there's so muchconnection in sharing, and it
(21:06):
improved all of my friendships,and some friendships ended
because that person didn't wantto meet me.
Equally, they wanted me torescue them, and it was like, oh
, this relationship doesn't workfor me anymore.
And the way I dated changed.
I was single for four yearsafter that, as I figured myself
out on what I needed and how Ineeded to be met before I met my
(21:26):
wife, who's a therapist, andthere is a reason that I'm
dating someone who's married toa therapist.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
So it was just this massive pivotal moment that has
helped me hugely in my career aswell.
I need to isolate that littleaudio and send it to my
girlfriend.
It's what I tell her all thetime anyway.
But no, I think that you knowwhat I found was interesting is
that also when you know peoplein the helper world.
Yeah, again, I go back to myfirst responders all the time
because this is what the podcastis about what I do for a living
, but also even for me as atherapist.
(21:58):
You talk about thatdifferential.
I never heard the triangulationthat you just talked about, but
it was powerful to me Becausewhat I love about my job is I
don't have to ask for help, I'min charge.
By the way, this is not50-year-old Steve talking, this
is Steve from 20 years ago.
It put me in that position.
I love that position and themore I grew, the more I realized
(22:20):
that asking for help is not asign of vulnerability or
weakness.
And again, I go to my firstresponders.
There's a lot of guys who callme say, oh, yeah, I'll come in
for therapy and they never dobecause they're so fucking
afraid of what thatvulnerability entails.
Yeah, and I think that you talkabout not knowing what to say
and how to ask for help becausethey're so fucking afraid of
what that vulnerability entails.
And I think that you talk aboutnot knowing what to say and how
(22:40):
to ask for help.
Do you have any ideas orsuggestions for people to learn
to do that?
Because you crashed and you hadto have surgery.
I was scared shitless when Ihad to get sinus surgery and
people are like it's just sinussurgery, okay, I've never been
under anesthetics To me.
I'm afraid I'm not waking up.
Turns out by the way, just toshare the story with everyone,
(23:02):
including you.
You'll find this funny.
So apparently, when I woke up,I was combative.
So apparently they need to nowgive me something if I wake up
in order to not be combative.
So apparently I was fine.
But the point is is like I thinkthat vulnerability has a lot to
do with not asking for help andkeeping that power differential
you talked about.
I call it power differential.
(23:23):
I think we have the samelanguage, you just use different
words.
How do we I don't know ifconvince is the right word how
do we talk to someone who's likewell, I need the help, but I'm
not going to come and for me I'ma harasser?
If you talk about the men'sgroup, I talk about my first
responder hey, where were you?
Are you okay?
And some people find thatharassing and eventually they
(23:44):
get what I'm doing.
But how do we get people overthat stuff?
Because I think it's soimportant that vulnerability to
me.
If you ever make fun of myvulnerability, you're the
asshole, not me.
Me, that's how I perceive it,but I know some people struggle
with that, so I I'm a littlemore rough than you are, so I
want to hear how you would sayit oh, I can be rough, I'm not
everybody.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Um, I think let's, let's go back one step.
Which is why men struggle withit and, uh, my understanding
from the research, from from myown observations, is we struggle
with it because young men andboys are taught not to have
feelings.
What is the worst thing for ayoung guy is to show fear, and
(24:25):
fear is part of vulnerability.
So we get told from an earlyage stuff I would get told in
the UK man up, don't cry, don'tshow them you're afraid.
Right, be stoic, don't giveaway that power of showing
you're afraid.
Like it's not giving any poweraway.
But that's what you get told.
And then you know, especiallybetween men, it's the don't be a
(24:49):
pussy, don't be weak, don't begay, you know.
So you get the homophobic slurs.
You know, for whatever reason,like why men think being
feminine or like a woman issomehow weak because they give
birth to children.
We can't do that, but that'sthe, that's the insult, right
for young guys.
And you know, thinking back tomy childhood, it's all about
calling each other gay.
(25:10):
That was like the biggestinsult that you could do to each
other or a pussy or weak.
So you have all of this inabout don't be this thing, which
is just a normal part of humanexperience.
You look at little children,boys and girls, and before they
get that message in, they haveexactly the same emotional range
(25:31):
and reaction.
So the six emotions I like towork with when men come to me,
when anyone comes to me, butparticularly with men is fear,
joy, anger, sadness, interestand disgust.
And fear and anger aretypically the two hardest ones
for guys to work with, becausethey've been told you can't be
too angry unless it's about yoursports team losing and you
(25:53):
cannot be afraid like.
There is nothing worse thanbeing afraid.
Fear is just a, it's just athing.
It's data.
It tells us about our humanexperience.
It tells us that we need to beprepared for something in the
future.
That's it.
That's what it's telling us,and if we look at these emotions
as neither negative nor bad,they are just experiences that
tell us about what is going onin the world.
(26:15):
We then get to use them andlearn from them, and you know to
now pull this back to yourquestion as to why men struggle
to join groups and struggle tobe vulnerable is because they
don't know how to sit with theirfear, because they've been told
fear is something theyshouldn't have, and we actually
need to learn how to sit withthese emotions and let this
(26:35):
emotion tell us something.
And when you actually sit withfear, like any emotion, it's a
fairly fleeting thing.
It's a 60, 90 second experienceof oh, I feel really afraid
right now.
Oh, what's that fear telling me?
Oh, it's telling me I'm worried, I'm going to be judged by the
other guys in this group.
For what I share and that istypically the issue with
vulnerability is, I don't wantto be judged by the other people
(26:58):
.
And for me, men's groups to betruly successful, you have to
remove the judgment, you have togo there and it has to be a
judgment-free space.
And this is where that balanceof being able to give feedback
is developed and becomes a realskill, because, to begin with,
developed and becomes a realskill because, to begin with, I
(27:19):
don't allow any feedback fromthe other guys.
It's just come here, be heardand get used to being heard by
other guys who don't want you tochange, who don't need you to
be different.
They just need you to be you.
And then you get to the pointwhere you're like give me some
feedback, guys.
And the moment that a guy says,okay, give me some feedback,
I'm now ready for it, then theycan start to get that support of
(27:39):
right.
Here's some things that we seethat can help you, and one of
the things I love to do withgroups is we do this round of
acknowledgement and thenopportunity.
So it's OK, this is what I thisis a great I see in you, this
is the impact you're having inthe world.
And then here's someopportunity that I see for you,
and typically how we get thatwrong societally is we focus too
(28:00):
much on opportunity and notenough on appreciation, and this
is very true for the companiesthat I work with, and I use this
cookie jar analogy, if you'lllet me just play for a moment.
And we all, we're all born witha full cookie jar, right,
lovely, full jar of cookies,delicious cookies, and that is
(28:22):
like our ability to absorbinformation, that, our ability
to get feedback, and as we grow,we get more of the
observational, critical feedbackthan we do appreciation,
acknowledgement, typically, andevery time that happens, that's
something taking a handful ofcookies out and eventually our
cookie jar gets empty.
We have no capacity to getfeedback anymore, and you
(28:45):
particularly see this in workorganizations.
You have that boss that walksin and everyone's like, oh fuck,
what's he going to say now,correct?
What's this guy going to say tome now?
And that you cannot listen tothat person, you can't learn
from that person.
So in a men's group, wepractice on filling the guy's
jars back up by letting themprocess, by letting them speak,
by letting them share, byappreciating them, before we
(29:06):
then say, okay, and here's somestuff that we see for you.
And here's like, here's thisstory.
You're telling yourself right,steve, we all have these stories
.
We're telling yourself here'sthe story're telling yourself
what's going to happen if youlet go of that story, what's the
opportunity for you if you letgo of this story, all.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
I can say is I think of Brene Brown when you say that
, again, I do have a cult forher.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
She's a smart lady who says some very wise things.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
You talk about the emotions.
That's actually we do.
You know, I think you're likeI'm going to start calling your
brother from another motherbecause I do similar work.
I talk about the core emotions.
I'm sure you've seen a wheel ofemotions.
That's kind of what youdescribed anyway.
And I tell people like, for men,being happy and being angry is
kind of okay, we can do that,but the rest of them the
(29:54):
surprise, the disgust, the fearwe can do that, but the rest of
them the surprise, the disgust,the fear no, you can't do that,
man, that's just not acceptable.
And for women, the sadness isokay, with a little happiness,
but the rest of it.
Even fear is okay, but notalways and not kind of,
especially if you have kids, whywould you be fearful?
Blah, blah, blah.
And what I tell people is we'reusurping our emotional system
(30:17):
anywhere from 50 to 66% bytelling people that this is not
okay.
And I tell people, if you don'thave all those six emotions at
least once a day, then you arefailing yourself as a human
being and fear doesn't happen,you do have them, you have them.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
We just don't pause to go.
What is it I'm feeling rightnow?
First week of my men's group,the homework is I want you to
stop yourself five or six timesa day, four deep breaths.
What do I feel right now?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
actually learn to listen to your human experience
but I think that that's exactlywhere I was going, because you
talked about humanity, and whenyou don't have humanity, you
don't let yourself have that.
You know, I didn't know if Iwas going to cry when I did that
little tribute earlier and if Idid, I couldn't have cared less
.
And what I mean by that is I'mnever going to pretend I don't
(31:08):
have emotions.
Do I overtake on podcasts?
Sure, I can overtake.
It's my podcast.
If I want to make it about meto hold 60 minutes.
Who gives a shit?
But in my sessions I also letmyself have emotions, but I
don't let it take over thesession, because that's where
you cross those ethics lines, inmy opinion.
But people, one of the bestcomments I get every single year
(31:29):
, steve, I love you as atherapist because you are a
human being and you let yourselfbe a human being.
And to me, that's another partthat we talked about earlier
Talk about, you know, emotions,the acknowledgement, the
opportunities you talked aboutall this, but acknowledging our
humanity, and I think thatthat's what's been missing for a
(31:52):
whole lot of time, for a wholelot of people now, and I think
that that's where we need to,also in men's group.
Being able to be human issomething that you know, one of
my.
There's two rules in my group.
You never talk about what'ssaid outside of this group.
You can be in your mind aboutit, but you never talk about it.
And if I ever catch you,there's no explanation, you are
out.
I don't want to fucking hear it.
And number two.
The other one is you do notapologize.
(32:12):
There is no apologies in mygroup.
Do not apologize.
There is no apologies in mygroup.
You say what you say, don'tapologize.
I think I say we don't say I'msorry.
And sometimes people say, well,I said I apologize.
That's different.
I'm like smart ass.
But the point is is I think thatwhat you've talked about is
really reaches all that andbeing able to get to that point
of expressing yourself is sodifficult for so many people
(32:34):
because they've been usurped andthey're emotional and to me,
their central nervous system ata very young age, I think.
Especially I look at thegeneration X and the generation
Zs and I belong in thegeneration X, just like you.
I think that that plays a lotin how you grow up and how it
usurps your whole centralnervous system.
It usurps your whole centralnervous system.
(32:54):
This was so awesome.
I need to shut off for episode212.
, but the good news is is thatfor episode 215, I'm going to be
able to put this one in for thesecond part, so please join us
then.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(33:33):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 212.
If you haven't listened toepisode 211, it's with Gordon
Brewer.
Gordon is, you know came back.
We talked about grief.
He used to run a funeral home.
He talked about that.
He talked about the stress thefirst responders face, the
trauma that they see, among manyother things.
So I hope you go listen to itthen.
But for episode 212, we aregoing to be talking to Lee Povey
(01:05):
.
Lee Povey is a high performanceleadership coach, specializing
in working with founders andstartups.
He's a lifelong entrepreneur,formerly elite cycling person.
He also does a lot of help withhigh achievers and helps them
motivate, lead and give themfeedback.
And as a podcast guest, hewants to be able to use his
Olympic sport experience and thebusiness world to discuss how
(01:28):
to find more joy and success,particularly with groups, and
I'm hoping that we talk aboutmen's groups particularly.
So here is the interviewGetfreeai you heard me talk
about it.
It I'm gonna keep on talkingabout it because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf 18 months practice with it
(01:52):
and I still enjoy it and itsaves me time and it saves me
energy.
Freeai takes your note, makes atrans and what you're talking
with a client, just press record, and it does either transcript,
it does a subjective and anobjective, with a letter if
needed for your client and forwhoever might need it.
So, for $99 a month, it savesme so much time that it's
(02:14):
worthwhile.
And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
You get 10% off.
More importantly, this is whatyou got to remember because you
are my audience that listens toResilience Development in Action
.
If you do listen to this whatyou got to remember because you
are my audience that listens toresilience development in action
If you do listen to this andyou want to use freeai, put in
the code Steve50 in the promocode area Steve50, and you will
(02:37):
get $50 off in addition toeverything we just talked about.
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Use that to your notes.
Get freed from even writingyour transcripts.
Use that to your advantage.
Freeai, a great service.
Go to getfreeai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney, and I highly encourage
(03:02):
you to do so.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 212.
Before we start, I want to givethis tribute to one of my
fallen colleagues, who was aparole officer, and I worked
with him for several years.
He passed away on Sunday, june30th 2025.
Joe Conner, this episode's foryou.
Rest in peace, brother, missyou, we'll always miss you, and
(03:24):
God bless.
Having said that, let's get backto the show.
On the road here, I'm happy toreally introduce someone that we
just had, a 23.
I never have these longpre-interviews.
We just talked and talked.
I'm like I probably shouldpress record at this point,
because it was such a commonconversation of how men's group
(03:45):
can help, how empathy can helpand how being able to not be
siloed really helps us see otherpeople's point of view in a
different light.
And, um, yeah, it had to take.
It'd be the commonwealth, uh,working on this, but uh, lee
povey, welcome to resilience,developmentience, developed and
in Action.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Thank you, steve, lovely to be here with you and
sorry for your loss.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Thank you.
It's, you know, without goingtoo long on him, a guy who was
really doubting the help thatmental health and substance
abuse can do for his guys sawthe good in me and never gave up
and became a big proponent.
You cannot replace a guy likethat, you just can't.
So, um, and he was fairly youngtoo, which is unfortunate.
(04:30):
Also that of cancer, um, sothank you.
But, lee, we I got to know youvery well and I, truthfully to
our audience, I have a projectgoing with him, probably in the
next few months or years.
That's how excited I am for youguys to get to know Lee.
(04:52):
But, lee, how about you tellpeople about yourself a little
bit, so that way?
Speaker 3 (04:54):
they know who they're listening to.
Yeah, where would you like meto start, steve?
There's a bit of story here.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Well, for me, I think that who you are as a human
being is key to think aboutwhere know where you come from,
what you're doing now and whatyou hope to accomplish.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Until you know, we all become dust yeah, okay, uh,
product of a narcissistic,sociopathic father, and you know
I don't say that like the, thetrendy tiktok kids he really was
.
You know this was clinicallydiagnosable behavior.
Did not care about anybody buthimself saw me and, uh, the rest
(05:29):
of his children as an extensionof himself.
He would talk about me winningraces, as you know, his good
sperm and stuff like that, andwouldn't actually ever say well
done to me.
He would just talk about me toother people as an extension of
himself and how to kind ofinflate his own ego.
So at a fairly young age, youknow I was smart, so I figured
(05:50):
out pretty young that I didn'twant to be like him, but I
didn't really know what I wantedto be like and who I wanted to
be, and I had a very strongvision of right and wrong, but I
didn't really know what itmeant to be a man.
And even now, 52 years I'm 52years old I'm still trying to
figure that out and I find thatquestion really interesting.
When people say what's a manI'm like, well, I don't really
(06:13):
know, uh, and people have theseroot answers of oh, it's this,
or it's provider, it's aprotector, and I look at the
guys that turn up in my men'sgroup and they're all so
different and it's all valid andI think we'll get to that in a
moment.
So anyway, I had this childhoodexperience that was difficult
and luckily I had a very lovingmother that that helped me and
(06:33):
guided me and, as we were sayingjust before the show started,
recently moved in with me, whichis wonderful and it kind of set
me up with a lot of love.
But I was struggling to connectwith, know how to connect with
men and have the relationshipsthat I wanted with men
especially.
This journey led me to atherapist who was wonderful.
(06:57):
I got incredibly lucky.
The first therapist I workedwith was a genius and just an
awesome human being and he ledme to men's groups.
He was in men's groups himself.
He was a leader of just anawesome human being and he led
me to men's groups.
He was in men's groups himself.
He was a leader of the localgroup and he led me to men's
groups.
And I got again very lucky thatthe first men's group I joined
there was a lot of older, wisermen.
(07:17):
I was the youngest guy in it Iwas in my early 20s at this time
and even though I'm a naturalleader and and became a natural
leader of the group and kind ofpushed the dynamics of the group
, because that's the annoyingperson that I am.
I had this wonderful experienceof older men loving me, seeing
me, allowing me to develop andshare of myself and giving me
(07:38):
the feedback that I wanted andneeded to hear and needed to
develop the ability to hear.
Uh, while this was going on, Iwas, um an elite athlete.
I realized I wasn't going to bean olympian.
I just didn't quite have thatlevel of talent.
I'm like a good national levelrider, but I'm not.
I know I'm not.
I'm not going to go win a goldmedal at olympics, and at that
(07:59):
time in the uk there was verylittle funding in my sport track
sprint cycling so it wasn't aviable career.
Now it is, even if you're notquite going to be olympic
champion.
It's a career path that wasn'topen to me.
Um, family was poor, so I didwhat many young people do who
are smart but don't have a greateducation, and we can maybe
(08:21):
talk about that sometime.
I'm autistic and dyslexic,which made school challenging
for me.
They didn't know this.
I've only discovered both ofthose things fairly recently,
but it makes a ton of sense whyschool was I was either the
smartest person in the room or Icouldn't learn, and the way
that they were teaching me justdidn't work for me.
12 years in real estate, sixyears with a large corporate
(08:45):
company, which is actually agood experience for me, and I
learned a ton and I luckily hadsome good leaders whose impact I
still feel now as a leadershipcoach.
And then I had my own companyand had to learn a lot about how
to lead and develop and build,and I started up pretty young
this was still in mymid-twenties.
I started my own companyEventually.
Eventually I sold that companyjust before the property crash
(09:06):
in 2008.
I could see it coming and Istill got lucky and I moved into
cycling coaching and I wascoaching young athletes
part-time for fun and I turnedit into a profession, ended up
becoming the national team coach, usa cycling's olymp
Development Program, which was apathway program to the LA 2028
Games, and I loved that work somuch.
(09:30):
However, I knew there wassomething bigger.
I'm only working with like 10to 12 athletes at a time and I
felt a calling to have moreimpact than that.
I needed to have more impact.
And then COVID came.
That program got shut downduring COVID and I'm sitting
there going what's next?
I heard a podcast from aleadership coach.
Didn't even know that existed.
(09:50):
I thought sometime I might be aconsultant from all of my
entrepreneurial work, but Ididn't know leadership coaching
existed and I listened to thispodcast, shared it with my wife.
My wife's a psychotherapist.
We have a private psychotherapypractice as well, we need the
sympathies.
You're welcome.
I said in my wedding vows toeverybody no, I'm not her
(10:11):
project, um.
And I had this moment ofrealization this is it.
This is what my life has beenbuilt into.
It's.
It's this kind of emotionalcoaching.
And then I just needed to findmy niche.
My niche is working with men ingroups and working with scale
up companies on their leadershipand working with their
(10:32):
executive teams and helping themall be more connected and work
better with each other, andthat's how we've ended up where
I am today.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Well, there's so many things you said that I want to
go for the wife therapist thing.
I get it.
When I started dating after mydivorce I had someone who
basically said well, you're atherapist, help my family.
I'm like, ooh, that's no, no.
So in one of my profiles itsaid I'm a therapist, but I am
not your therapist, yeah, atherapist, yeah.
(11:07):
And my girlfriend still to thisday jokes around around that
way.
So I figured you'd like thatstory.
You know, you mentionedsomething that maybe we can jump
off.
That I really, really enjoyed isthat you joined a men's group,
which is, you know, one of myquestions I had is if you've
ever been in the men's group.
So that answers that.
And you said they gave youfeedback you needed.
I would argue that a good groupwill give you feedback.
You didn't want to hear, butyou needed.
(11:28):
I think that there's adistinction between the two,
because sometimes we want to bevalidated, but sometimes we have
a bunch of group that guys aregoing to like don't fucking
shovel me bullshit and tell methat this is the greatest thing
in the world, and I think thatthat's a little bit of like that
dynamic that I wanted to maybeaddress with you a little more.
You know sometimes the feedbackis needed, sometimes it's not
(11:48):
wanted but it's received.
So how do you navigate all that?
Because I know that I run agroup for first responders.
I've actually run two groupsfor first responders and that's
the greatest thing in the worldwhen guys go bullshit and to me
that's like the dynamic that itcreates and within the group is
amazing.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
As a human being.
One of my gifts is I can seethe stuff that you can't see
about yourself.
I've always had that gift froma young man and I've wielded
that gift clumsily and sometimesspitefully.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Thank you Dan.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Yeah, absolutely, and as I've got older, I've
realized that's not effective.
And even sometimes, you know,when I wielded it clumsily,
there was good heart there.
I'd go up to an athlete at avelodrome and say, hey, why are
you doing it like this?
Why don't you do it like that?
Instead, you'll be faster.
I had no rapport, the messagingwas poor, I hadn't built any
(12:44):
trust and safety and I'm justtelling them they're wrong.
So you know they're leaving theexchange just feeling lesser
than and I've had no impact,because they haven't actually
absorbed the wisdom that I'vegot to share with them and I was
sharing something relevant,like I.
This is the better way of doingit.
My athletes were supersuccessful, broke hundreds of
(13:05):
national and world records, soI'm giving you good advice, but
the way I delivered it was sopoor and I've had to study how
to deliver feedback to the pointnow that I'm known as a world
expert on delivering feedbackand I run workshops on
delivering feedback because Iwas so poor at it, steve.
So being able to see doesn'tmean that you can actually teach
(13:26):
and it doesn't mean that youcan share in a way that's
impactful.
So I had to learn that andthat's what people come to me
for now they come to me for thestuff they can't see or the
others are afraid to tell themor don't have the skill set to
tell them in a way that'simpactful.
So let's tie that to groups.
There is a way that you cancreate safety and trust and
belief that that person isgiving me loving feedback so
(13:48):
that even if the feedback stingsa bit and you're like, oh, I
feel very seen right now.
Oh, that hurts, that's the partof my personality I don't like
and you're reflecting it to me.
Oof, that hurts that you cansit there with it and go.
Thank you, I needed that.
Some of the work that I've donewith coaches, with myself, and I
do with my clients and I do inmy men's groups, is this shadow
(14:11):
work where we talk about whatare your genetic personality
traits.
So we start with what is itthat you bring to the world?
And we're all different and wehave different genetic
personality traits.
Anyone who's a parent knowsthis.
Your children are different,same genetic matter, like same
mom and dad, yet they havedeveloped uh, them develop.
(14:32):
They're born with differentskill sets, are born with
different personality traits,and then the world meets them.
You might be a super curiouskid and there's lots of ways the
world can meet that.
The world can be like you'retoo much shut up so you dim that
light and it becomes a burdenrather than a gift.
Or the world might meet you andsay that's wonderful, tell me
(14:53):
more.
Or ask me more questions, orhere's how you learn.
That person's the person thatgoes on and goes and invents a
bunch of things.
The other person's if somebodyends up being depressed and
they're not allowed to sharethat gift.
So my gift is I'm very, verysmart, perceptive.
However, I would use that tocontrol people, to be safe.
That's how I kept myself safefrom my dad.
(15:14):
It's also linked to my autism,where I need certain physical
safety.
I need certain sensory safety.
So one of my shadows istyrannical Einstein.
That's what me and my coachescame up with a name for it and
it's I use my intelligence, theEinstein part, and Einstein's
also well known as a very lovingman, which I am, so it's kind
(15:35):
of connected to that.
But there's a tyrant part thatgoes with it to control people,
to get what I want, to pushpeople into areas that I want
them in.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Well, one of us would call that intellectualization,
but that might be my Freudianside.
But there's so many things likethis is awesome because you
talk about delivering feedback.
You know, one of my all-timefavorite sayings is from Brene
Brown, and Brene Brown sayshonesty without hack is cruelty
(16:09):
Absolutely.
And Brene is one of my favoritepeople in the world.
I never met her.
I hope I do one day.
But I tell people that you knowthey like, oh, you deliver
honestly, but you're not mean.
I'm like, yeah, because I usedto hack, I mean and I also match
you.
So if you need a little moredirect, you're direct.
If you need a little moreflowery, you're flowery.
I'm not much of a flower, butI'll do it.
(16:37):
And I think that that's what Italk about when you talk about
delivering feedback, and I don'tknow what your thoughts on that
are.
But before we go to that,there's so many things you
mentioned too the curiosityfactor for kids to adults, to
how you grow in your career, andwhat I tell people is, as a
like what I liked about my bestfirst responders, who continue
to grow in their career.
They're the ones who keep onbeing curious about learning
different things.
As a therapist, what I'velearned to say is what I know
(17:04):
fits in a thimble.
It's about this big and it's asbig as the world.
So this is how much I know andtherefore I want to learn from
everyone, and I think that beingable to be curious throughout
your life shows a side of notonly do you become a good leader
, you become a good human being,and I know pre-interview we
were talking about being goodhuman beings first and foremost
as an important factor in life,but I don't know where you want
to go with what I just said.
(17:25):
But that's definitely like myBrene Brown thing has always
been one of my favorite sayingsto tell people yeah, you and you
know, part of it for me was tofeel safe.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
I needed to feel smarter than you.
I think because of my I don'tthink it's related to stuff with
my dad, I think this is relatedto my autism and dyslexia that
there were moments wherelearning was very difficult for
me and I knew I was smart but Icouldn't always display it, and
(17:54):
because of that I think I tookon this belief that I had to
always show you how smart I amand therefore, you know I'm
going to point out the thingsthat you can't see about
yourself, that you don'tunderstand, because, hey, that
puts me in a one up position,and Terry Reels, the therapist,
talks about this a lot, aboutthe one up, one down position,
and I used to get a lot fromthat and I crashed in 2010.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Can you explain that a little bit for people?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
yeah, so yeah, so you know there's.
There's various models for it.
The drama triangle is a goodmodel for it, where you've got
the hero position and the victimposition.
The hero is one up and thevictim is one down, so you make
yourself feel okay by.
I am better than you.
Then you've got, uh ta, thetransactional analysis version
as well.
We got a parent adult child, soyou take a parent position and
(18:38):
force somebody else to be achild instead of two adults
facing each other and equalrelationships, and I realized
that I was creating theserelationships where I was the
hero because it made me feelwanted, it made me feel smart,
and then I was attracting peoplethat wanted to be rescued.
And I crashed in 2010 and brokemy shoulder very badly and it
was the first time in my lifewhere I was truly vulnerable.
(19:00):
You know I'd had vulnerablemoments before breakups and
things like that, but it hadn'tmade me really face myself for
my own vulnerability in that way.
So I had this crash.
My arm was really badly damagedand I didn't know if it was
going to work properly again.
I ended up having to have tworeconstructive surgeries before
it did, and it was one of thelowest periods of my life and
(19:22):
also one of the best, when Ireflect back now, because of
what it taught me.
And what it taught me was I wasterrible about asking for help.
I wanted to be always okay andI wanted you to be not okay so I
could save you.
And that made me feel secure.
And I had this realization thatwas not serving me at all the
woman I was dating at the time.
(19:42):
We'd been together four years.
Within two months, we weresplit up because I was like, oh,
our relationship only workswhen I'm the hero and she's
vulnerable.
When I'm vulnerable, it doesn'twork.
She doesn't know what to dowith it.
She doesn't know how to meet methere, and I don't blame her
for this at all.
I'd created that.
Um, so I, I I left thatrelationship and I had to
renegotiate a bunch offriendships.
(20:03):
I asked one of my friends totake me to the hospital and he
said well, just get a cab, it'sa mile away.
And I was like, oh, okay.
What I didn't realize is what Iwas actually asking was I need
you to come and hold my handbecause I'm really bloody scared
.
I've never had an operationbefore.
I'd crashed a bunch of timesand got patched up by my local
(20:23):
doctor.
I'd never had to have anoperation, never had an
anesthetic, and I was scared themost scared I'd been in my life
and I didn't even really knowhow to say that at that point,
like, oh my god, I'm reallyscared.
But I'm sitting in the hospitalroom absolutely petrified, and
that's when it hit me I need tobe able to tell people that I
need to be able to ask forsupport, even if it's just
(20:44):
someone to hold my hand.
So the second operation, I hadfive of my friends come with me
and I didn't even really needthat many friends, but they just
saw me and I asked for it, andit was a wonderful experience
for me to be held by otherpeople instead of it always
being the other way around.
And it taught me as well thatthere's so much strength in
vulnerability, there's so muchconnection in sharing, and it
(21:06):
improved all of my friendships,and some friendships ended
because that person didn't wantto meet me.
Equally, they wanted me torescue them, and it was like, oh
, this relationship doesn't workfor me anymore.
And the way I dated changed.
I was single for four yearsafter that, as I figured myself
out on what I needed and how Ineeded to be met before I met my
(21:26):
wife, who's a therapist, andthere is a reason that I'm
dating someone who's married toa therapist.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
So it was just this massive pivotal moment that has
helped me hugely in my career aswell.
I need to isolate that littleaudio and send it to my
girlfriend.
It's what I tell her all thetime anyway.
But no, I think that you knowwhat I found was interesting is
that also when you know peoplein the helper world.
Yeah, again, I go back to myfirst responders all the time
because this is what the podcastis about what I do for a living
, but also even for me as atherapist.
(21:58):
You talk about thatdifferential.
I never heard the triangulationthat you just talked about, but
it was powerful to me Becausewhat I love about my job is I
don't have to ask for help, I'min charge.
By the way, this is not50-year-old Steve talking, this
is Steve from 20 years ago.
It put me in that position.
I love that position and themore I grew, the more I realized
(22:20):
that asking for help is not asign of vulnerability or
weakness.
And again, I go to my firstresponders.
There's a lot of guys who callme say, oh, yeah, I'll come in
for therapy and they never dobecause they're so fucking
afraid of what thatvulnerability entails.
Yeah, and I think that you talkabout not knowing what to say
and how to ask for help becausethey're so fucking afraid of
what that vulnerability entails.
And I think that you talk aboutnot knowing what to say and how
(22:40):
to ask for help.
Do you have any ideas orsuggestions for people to learn
to do that?
Because you crashed and you hadto have surgery.
I was scared shitless when Ihad to get sinus surgery and
people are like it's just sinussurgery, okay, I've never been
under anesthetics To me.
I'm afraid I'm not waking up.
Turns out by the way, just toshare the story with everyone,
(23:02):
including you.
You'll find this funny.
So apparently, when I woke up,I was combative.
So apparently they need to nowgive me something if I wake up
in order to not be combative.
So apparently I was fine.
But the point is is like I thinkthat vulnerability has a lot to
do with not asking for help andkeeping that power differential
you talked about.
I call it power differential.
(23:23):
I think we have the samelanguage, you just use different
words.
How do we I don't know ifconvince is the right word how
do we talk to someone who's likewell, I need the help, but I'm
not going to come and for me I'ma harasser?
If you talk about the men'sgroup, I talk about my first
responder hey, where were you?
Are you okay?
And some people find thatharassing and eventually they
(23:44):
get what I'm doing.
But how do we get people overthat stuff?
Because I think it's soimportant that vulnerability to
me.
If you ever make fun of myvulnerability, you're the
asshole, not me.
Me, that's how I perceive it,but I know some people struggle
with that, so I I'm a littlemore rough than you are, so I
want to hear how you would sayit oh, I can be rough, I'm not
everybody.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Um, I think let's, let's go back one step.
Which is why men struggle withit and, uh, my understanding
from the research, from from myown observations, is we struggle
with it because young men andboys are taught not to have
feelings.
What is the worst thing for ayoung guy is to show fear, and
(24:25):
fear is part of vulnerability.
So we get told from an earlyage stuff I would get told in
the UK man up, don't cry, don'tshow them you're afraid.
Right, be stoic, don't giveaway that power of showing
you're afraid.
Like it's not giving any poweraway.
But that's what you get told.
And then you know, especiallybetween men, it's the don't be a
(24:49):
pussy, don't be weak, don't begay, you know.
So you get the homophobic slurs.
You know, for whatever reason,like why men think being
feminine or like a woman issomehow weak because they give
birth to children.
We can't do that, but that'sthe, that's the insult, right
for young guys.
And you know, thinking back tomy childhood, it's all about
calling each other gay.
(25:10):
That was like the biggestinsult that you could do to each
other or a pussy or weak.
So you have all of this inabout don't be this thing, which
is just a normal part of humanexperience.
You look at little children,boys and girls, and before they
get that message in, they haveexactly the same emotional range
(25:31):
and reaction.
So the six emotions I like towork with when men come to me,
when anyone comes to me, butparticularly with men is fear,
joy, anger, sadness, interestand disgust.
And fear and anger aretypically the two hardest ones
for guys to work with, becausethey've been told you can't be
too angry unless it's about yoursports team losing and you
(25:53):
cannot be afraid like.
There is nothing worse thanbeing afraid.
Fear is just a, it's just athing.
It's data.
It tells us about our humanexperience.
It tells us that we need to beprepared for something in the
future.
That's it.
That's what it's telling us,and if we look at these emotions
as neither negative nor bad,they are just experiences that
tell us about what is going onin the world.
(26:15):
We then get to use them andlearn from them, and you know to
now pull this back to yourquestion as to why men struggle
to join groups and struggle tobe vulnerable is because they
don't know how to sit with theirfear, because they've been told
fear is something theyshouldn't have, and we actually
need to learn how to sit withthese emotions and let this
(26:35):
emotion tell us something.
And when you actually sit withfear, like any emotion, it's a
fairly fleeting thing.
It's a 60, 90 second experienceof oh, I feel really afraid
right now.
Oh, what's that fear telling me?
Oh, it's telling me I'm worried, I'm going to be judged by the
other guys in this group.
For what I share and that istypically the issue with
vulnerability is, I don't wantto be judged by the other people
(26:58):
.
And for me, men's groups to betruly successful, you have to
remove the judgment, you have togo there and it has to be a
judgment-free space.
And this is where that balanceof being able to give feedback
is developed and becomes a realskill, because, to begin with,
developed and becomes a realskill because, to begin with, I
(27:19):
don't allow any feedback fromthe other guys.
It's just come here, be heardand get used to being heard by
other guys who don't want you tochange, who don't need you to
be different.
They just need you to be you.
And then you get to the pointwhere you're like give me some
feedback, guys.
And the moment that a guy says,okay, give me some feedback,
I'm now ready for it, then theycan start to get that support of
(27:39):
right.
Here's some things that we seethat can help you, and one of
the things I love to do withgroups is we do this round of
acknowledgement and thenopportunity.
So it's OK, this is what I thisis a great I see in you, this
is the impact you're having inthe world.
And then here's someopportunity that I see for you,
and typically how we get thatwrong societally is we focus too
(28:00):
much on opportunity and notenough on appreciation, and this
is very true for the companiesthat I work with, and I use this
cookie jar analogy, if you'lllet me just play for a moment.
And we all, we're all born witha full cookie jar, right,
lovely, full jar of cookies,delicious cookies, and that is
(28:22):
like our ability to absorbinformation, that, our ability
to get feedback, and as we grow,we get more of the
observational, critical feedbackthan we do appreciation,
acknowledgement, typically, andevery time that happens, that's
something taking a handful ofcookies out and eventually our
cookie jar gets empty.
We have no capacity to getfeedback anymore, and you
(28:45):
particularly see this in workorganizations.
You have that boss that walksin and everyone's like, oh fuck,
what's he going to say now,correct?
What's this guy going to say tome now?
And that you cannot listen tothat person, you can't learn
from that person.
So in a men's group, wepractice on filling the guy's
jars back up by letting themprocess, by letting them speak,
by letting them share, byappreciating them, before we
(29:06):
then say, okay, and here's somestuff that we see for you.
And here's like, here's thisstory.
You're telling yourself right,steve, we all have these stories
.
We're telling yourself here'sthe story're telling yourself
what's going to happen if youlet go of that story, what's the
opportunity for you if you letgo of this story, all.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
I can say is I think of Brene Brown when you say that
, again, I do have a cult forher.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
She's a smart lady who says some very wise things.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
You talk about the emotions.
That's actually we do.
You know, I think you're likeI'm going to start calling your
brother from another motherbecause I do similar work.
I talk about the core emotions.
I'm sure you've seen a wheel ofemotions.
That's kind of what youdescribed anyway.
And I tell people like, for men,being happy and being angry is
kind of okay, we can do that,but the rest of them the
(29:54):
surprise, the disgust, the fearwe can do that, but the rest of
them the surprise, the disgust,the fear no, you can't do that,
man, that's just not acceptable.
And for women, the sadness isokay, with a little happiness,
but the rest of it.
Even fear is okay, but notalways and not kind of,
especially if you have kids, whywould you be fearful?
Blah, blah, blah.
And what I tell people is we'reusurping our emotional system
(30:17):
anywhere from 50 to 66% bytelling people that this is not
okay.
And I tell people, if you don'thave all those six emotions at
least once a day, then you arefailing yourself as a human
being and fear doesn't happen,you do have them, you have them.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
We just don't pause to go.
What is it I'm feeling rightnow?
First week of my men's group,the homework is I want you to
stop yourself five or six timesa day, four deep breaths.
What do I feel right now?
Speaker 2 (30:45):
actually learn to listen to your human experience
but I think that that's exactlywhere I was going, because you
talked about humanity, and whenyou don't have humanity, you
don't let yourself have that.
You know, I didn't know if Iwas going to cry when I did that
little tribute earlier and if Idid, I couldn't have cared less
.
And what I mean by that is I'mnever going to pretend I don't
(31:08):
have emotions.
Do I overtake on podcasts?
Sure, I can overtake.
It's my podcast.
If I want to make it about meto hold 60 minutes.
Who gives a shit?
But in my sessions I also letmyself have emotions, but I
don't let it take over thesession, because that's where
you cross those ethics lines, inmy opinion.
But people, one of the bestcomments I get every single year
(31:29):
, steve, I love you as atherapist because you are a
human being and you let yourselfbe a human being.
And to me, that's another partthat we talked about earlier
Talk about, you know, emotions,the acknowledgement, the
opportunities you talked aboutall this, but acknowledging our
humanity, and I think thatthat's what's been missing for a
(31:52):
whole lot of time, for a wholelot of people now, and I think
that that's where we need to,also in men's group.
Being able to be human issomething that you know, one of
my.
There's two rules in my group.
You never talk about what'ssaid outside of this group.
You can be in your mind aboutit, but you never talk about it.
And if I ever catch you,there's no explanation, you are
out.
I don't want to fucking hear it.
And number two.
The other one is you do notapologize.
(32:12):
There is no apologies in mygroup.
Do not apologize.
There is no apologies in mygroup.
You say what you say, don'tapologize.
I think I say we don't say I'msorry.
And sometimes people say, well,I said I apologize.
That's different.
I'm like smart ass.
But the point is is I think thatwhat you've talked about is
really reaches all that andbeing able to get to that point
of expressing yourself is sodifficult for so many people
(32:34):
because they've been usurped andthey're emotional and to me,
their central nervous system ata very young age, I think.
Especially I look at thegeneration X and the generation
Zs and I belong in thegeneration X, just like you.
I think that that plays a lotin how you grow up and how it
usurps your whole centralnervous system.
It usurps your whole centralnervous system.
(32:54):
This was so awesome.
I need to shut off for episode212.
, but the good news is is thatfor episode 215, I'm going to be
able to put this one in for thesecond part, so please join us
then.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(33:33):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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