July 23, 2025 • 52 mins
What happens when a first responder walks into a therapist's office and shares a traumatic experience so dark that the therapist needs "a few minutes" before responding? For most first responders, this confirms their worst fear: no one can handle their reality. That's why cultural competency isn't just helpful—it's essential.
In this powerful conversation with the founding members of "Behind the Badge and Beyond," we explore the critical importance of specialized mental health care for those who serve our communities. Lisa Knowles, Richard Winning, Erin Sheridan, Alexa Silva, Jennifer Waldron, and host Steve Bisson bring decades of combined experience working with police officers, firefighters, EMTs, correctional officers, and military personnel.
The group unpacks what makes first responder therapy uniquely challenging—like the profound emotional numbing that protects on the job but destroys relationships at home, the grief that gets misinterpreted as burnout, and the resistance to vulnerability that requires extraordinary patience from clinicians. They share stories of connecting with clients through dark humor, specialized knowledge, and authentic relationship-building that creates safety for those who protect us daily.
Whether you're a first responder seeking help, a family member trying to understand, or a clinician wanting to better serve this population, this conversation offers invaluable insights into creating genuine healing spaces for those who witness trauma daily. The message is clear: first responders deserve therapists who speak their language, understand their culture, and can sit comfortably with their darkest experiences without flinching.
Ready to find a culturally competent therapist or learn more about specialized mental health support for first responders? This episode is for you!
Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 214.
If you haven't listened toepisode 213 yet, that was me
talking about my birthday, whatit means to me and all that fun
stuff, and don't forget to checkout.
I'm going to have some extrastuff on the premium podcast
Only three bucks a month reallygood, go listen to it.
But episode 214 will be with agroup that lisa knowles, who I
(01:05):
will describe who she is veryshortly, but lisa knowles
started a few like about a yearago of culturally competent
therapists in massachusetts andI'm very honored to say that
they invited me for the thirdmeeting maybe.
So I've been part of thecoalition for a short while
right now, but we're really.
We now have a name.
It's called Behind the Badgeand Beyond, and for me, like I
(01:29):
want to give all theirbiographies, but I can't because
it's going to be too long andthey're going to talk about it
anyway.
But Richard Winning is someonewho got his master's in social
work at Westfield StateUniversity, currently volunteers
on the alumni association there.
He began responding with policeto acute psychiatric crisis in
2017.
And from there he got hispart-time work and then became
(01:52):
this is a full-time job now andhe specializes in police, fire,
ems and ER staff, which is whatwe're going to talk about anyway
.
Alexa Silva is someone Iactually you know.
I met through a long time agonot too long ago, about a year
ago and then we kept on stayingin contact.
She invited me to the coalition.
She also is someone who hasworked with first responders for
(02:13):
a long time.
She has EMDR and CISM training.
She focuses on individual andcouples and she blends expertise
with personal experience due tobeing married to a firefighter.
She blends expertise withpersonal experience due to being
married to a firefighter and,with over five and a half years
of sobriety, she offers a liveperspective that deeply, deeply
affects and influences in a goodway the first respondent
(02:34):
military community.
She brought her personaljourney in.
I hope and can't wait to hearfrom her.
And then there's JenniferWaldron, who is someone who
worked up in Battleboro, vermont, at the retreat there.
I actually remember when Iworked in Vermont from the
Battleboro retreat I had sentsome people there, obviously
from Mass too, but I remember mytimes in Vermont.
(02:55):
She worked as a correctionalofficer as well as an acute
psychiatric hospital, so sheserved a uniformed personnel
psychiatric hospital, so sheserved a uniformed personnel.
She's dedicated to creating asafe and supportive environment
for first responders, uniformedpersonnel, and be socially and
not socially, but culturallycompetent, which is so important
in this field, and I'm surewe're going to bring that up on
(03:16):
the conversation.
Lisa Knowles is the founder of Ican't remember what the
official name was originally,but now it is the Behind the
Badge and Beyond.
She's the original founder.
She's in Ludlow, massachusetts,with her practice.
She started off.
She's been doing the work since2012.
Her direct, grounded approachand cultural competency has
helped her build trust with herindividuals a group that we have
(03:46):
now and she wants to unite allclinicians that are culturally
competent with first respondersto join and work together so
that we have all these greatresources.
Erin Sheridan is someone I alsomet through the coalition Super
nice.
We've exchanged several timessince then.
She has a solo private practicethat works with first
responders veterans.
She graduated from Anna MariaCollege and got her master's
also in counseling psych Beendoing this since 2008.
(04:08):
She worked for IOP PHPintensive outpatient partial
hospitalization.
She's the clinical director ofher local CISM team excuse me
for the last three years and shehas extensive training.
She's also a spouse and familymember of first responders and
finally, but not less, is mewho's going to be talking about
(04:29):
all this with everyone, and Ihope you enjoy it.
And here's the interviewGetfreeai, you heard me talk
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Well, hi everyone and welcometo episode 214.
This is a very special episodeto me because these are
individuals who took me in a fewmonths ago and we were trying
to work on a great project, andwe are continuing to create a
project that now has a name andeverything else which is Behind
(06:16):
the Badge and Beyond, and Ireally appreciate this group,
the group being Lisa Knowles,richard Wenning, aaron Sheridan,
alexa Silva and Jennifer Walden.
Hi everyone, and welcome toRecovery Development in Action.
You get to see my home studio.
I couldn't make it to my worktoday.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Thanks for having us Hi.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Well, you know, it's funny because this group,
honestly, when we get togetherwe can't shut up.
And then we get here and I feellike everyone's so nervous.
This is like a conversation,guys, where we're dedicated,
like you know.
Give it a little bit of thegroup this.
You know, when it was startedit was for really Massachusetts
and therapists who are seekingto help first responders, and
(06:57):
it's become even more organizedas we've gone along.
We got a little logo andeverything.
Now we have a website justcopyrighted the name.
So there's a lot of good stuffgoing on.
But you know, I know you guys,except for Jen.
I haven't met Jen, so I'm goingto start with her.
How about you introduceyourself, jen?
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Hi, I'm Jen Waldron.
I have been a clinician for 10years now.
I work with first respondersexclusively and uniform service
members.
I've included them.
I don't really know whatspecifically to say.
I'm surrounded by firstresponders, married to a first
responder, I wore a uniform.
(07:35):
I was a corrections officer.
I understand the community andthere was no question what
community I was going to beworking with once I started and
once I became a therapist.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Well, I think you said plenty.
Where were you?
A correctional officer at theMCIs, or?
Speaker 4 (07:50):
At Franklin County.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Well, I worked in a prison a couple of times so I
didn't serve, I promise, but Iguess I didn't at the hall for a
couple of years.
So I really respect mycorrectional staff.
In fact they're invited to mygroup that I have.
I think correctional staff haveit as first responders because
they're pretty much all I wouldsay all three because they got
to do medical also.
So they definitely have thosethings within what I call a
(08:16):
different culture, so we cantalk about the CEO culture
forever.
But welcome, jen, thank you,and Alexa in the top left corner
on my computer, how about yougo next?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Okay, great.
Yes, Hi, my name is AlexisSilva.
I'm also a clinician thatspecializes in working with the
military personnel and firstresponders and, like Jen, I come
from a family of firstresponders and a big reason why
I actually got into this isbecause of my husband.
So being married to a Marineveteran and a firefighter really
(08:52):
kind of gave me that open eyeof okay, when we're not doing
this right in the field, cominghome to it and really seeing the
personal level of it.
My background is social work andI thought I was going to go get
a PhD and I did my firstmaster's in social community
psych and I was like what thehell is this?
And I did not want to go doresearch or do any of that stuff
for another seven years.
So then I got another master'sin social work and I really
(09:14):
wanted to get into the clinicalpiece.
But I really, again, love theconcept of what we do clinically
but also taking what we have athome and being from a know from
a, being from a family of firstresponders, being a spouse,
being a friend, children, right,Anything, and then how we can
really relate that.
So with that too, I've had areally great experience of
(09:35):
working with individuals in thisfield individually, but also at
a couple's level, and sometimesthat can be hard to navigate.
So I know we'll talk more aboutthat.
But yeah, just love what I do.
I don't have the personalbackground of doing the job
every day, but I do have thefamily piece.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So Well, welcome Alexa.
And yes, the family stuff.
A couple of episodes ago I hadsomeone talk about the quote
she's for Cindy Doyle from CodeFour for Couples.
Oh, she's great, she's amazing,and you know I had so many
messages from family memberssaying thank you for addressing
this stuff, so it's somethingthat really is needed to be
addressed.
And you know another one who'smarried to the profession
(10:13):
essentially.
So thank you, alexa.
How about we go with RichardJust trying to mix it up on my
board here?
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Yeah, so my name is Richard Winning.
I'm the owner operator ofResponders Refuge I, for the
(10:43):
last for my colleagues that wereuh doing the work with me.
Um, so I decided to start startby opening my private practice
and uh have uh recently, indecember, went full-time into
the private practice becausethere's just so much demand and
so much need.
Speaker 6 (11:00):
well, very happy and I just hired.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
Just hired my first additional employee last week.
Speaker 7 (11:04):
Congratulations.
That's good too.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Cultural competence.
Speaker 7 (11:08):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
With cultural competence, Richard yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
Oh yeah, she was one of my co-responders, so she had
left that work and I told herthat as soon as I had enough
people lined up on the docketthat I would invite her in.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
That's awesome.
We need more culturallycompetent people.
Hopefully we'll bring that uptoo later on, cause that's
that's that's why we lose halfthe people going to therapy.
They don't have the culturalcompetency, so really appreciate
that.
How about we go?
I'll go with.
I'll go with Erin, cause.
I'll finish off with Lisa,cause you know, as the one who
got us all together, I want totalk to her last, erin.
(11:45):
How about you go next?
Speaker 6 (11:47):
hi, I'm Erin Sheridan .
I've been a clinician for 17ish years.
I started off my careeractually as an addiction
counselor doing drug court downin Connecticut so I'm licensed
down there as well and theneventually became mental health
counselor.
I come from family with firstresponders.
(12:09):
I actually wanted to be acanine officer.
My bachelor's degree is incriminal justice.
Started off like interning withlike probation within the whole
court system, interned withlike police stations, so that
was kind of like my directionthat I wanted to go.
Then life took some turns andhere I am counseling.
So I've had my practice,beautifully Unbroken Counseling,
(12:31):
since 2021, where I've beenmajority, majority, majority.
There we go Working with firstresponders and veterans in
Starbridge Mass insurance inSturbridge Mass, and I also am
the clinical director for theCentral Mass Critical Incident
Stress Management Team, which isnear and dear to my heart.
And, like I said, I came fromfamily with first responders and
(12:54):
then I loved it so much Imarried into it.
So I'm married to a firelieutenant and public safety
diver.
So I really wanted to have arelationship that was super
healthy within first responders,because I've seen it go the
opposite way and that's kind ofalways been my goal.
But yeah, that's what drove meto work with first responders.
I absolutely love it.
(13:15):
I love the challenges that comewith it.
I tend to, I feel like, fit inmore with that first responder
personality than a lot ofclinicians.
So we laugh a lot at work.
You know, there's the darkhumor, but there's also times to
be serious.
Majority of my practice isdoing EMDR and I'm also training
(13:35):
a chocolate lab to become atherapy dog.
She actually just turned twoyesterday, so hopefully we'll be
starting that process soon.
Well, you know the promopicture will be used as canine
Bella, so it we'll be startingthat process soon.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Well, you know the promo picture will be you.
It says canine Bella, so itwon't be a secret by then.
Just want to mention that.
But welcome, and last butcertainly not least, Lisa
Knowles, I want to hear from youbecause you, you know, I, I got
this invitation, this group,through you.
I know Alexa had contacted me,but I really appreciate it and
(14:06):
you know, I know the importantwork you do.
But please share the OG.
She is the OG.
She is the OG.
Speaker 7 (14:12):
Oh, my goodness.
Well, thank you so much.
You know I have to mirror whatAaron said I absolutely love
doing this work and working withthis population said I
absolutely love doing this workand working with this population
.
And the passion and the drivestarted in 2012 when a uniformed
(14:32):
officer in crisis showed up atmy little office in the back of
the building and my initialreaction was, oh shit, what did
I do?
But quickly it shifted tocompassion and connection with
him and I realized he wasn'tthere for me and I needed to be
there for him.
(14:52):
And his vulnerability reallyopened my eyes to how few safe
and judgment-free spaces existfor first responders and
especially police officers, andhis journey alone showed me
what's possible when trust andconsistency are present.
(15:16):
It revealed this massive unmetneed.
I started getting word-of mouthreferrals all hours of the
night.
It just showed how starved thecommunity was for culturally
competent care, and that reallypushed me and pushed my skills,
wanting to learn more, and I sawthis systemic gap and I felt,
(15:41):
like you know, I really need tofill this, and not just with
therapy, but with understandingand advocacy.
And then, when I started doingall this, I really felt like I
was on an island and by myself,but I knew that there were
others out there like me and Idesperately wanted connection.
(16:02):
So I started researching andtrying to find folks, and I
think Erin was the very firstperson that I found and she's
been amazing and helpfulthroughout this journey and
connected me to other people andall of you that are here and
then our newer members.
(16:22):
So I feel, you know, reallyexcited about what's in the
future for us all, and so I'mreally just glad to be here and
for all of you.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Well, thanks to you, there's episode 214 now on
resilience, development andaction.
So thank you for that.
And do we call Erin the secondOG?
What do we call her?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
Second OG.
I was just excited to make afriend Me too.
Making friends with an adult ishard.
It is.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
The other thing that's fantastic is we've been
going on for about 10 minutesand no one's sworn.
There's no swearing yet.
That's really shocking to me,actually.
Speaker 7 (17:05):
I'll be perfectly honest Well.
I said oh shit.
I said oh shit.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, there's no bleeping on my podcast.
I don't bleep anyone.
Authenticity is what counts andhell, we wouldn't be doing this
job if we weren't authentic.
That so authenticity is whatcounts and hell, we wouldn't be
doing this job if we weren'tauthentic.
That's just my view.
You know.
There's a couple of things thatcame up that I really want to
mention is that, to me, havingworked in the correctional
facilities, working at the drugcourts, the high functioning,
most dysfunctional people youknow they're all high
(17:48):
functioning but they have allshit goes down and not all of
them.
I don't want any emails.
You know all of us are fuckedup and I'm okay, I get it, but
the point is, is that that'swhat really to me?
What's fascinating to me isthat's my, my jam.
I worked in community settingsand hearts places.
That was fun for a while, but Ifascinating to me is that's my
jam.
I worked in community settingsand hearts places.
That was fun for a while, but Iwanted to work with a different
population.
This is something I embracedsince 2000, and I don't regret
one single second yet.
(18:09):
Maybe sometimes, but you knowwhat?
That's a little bit of how Istarted and I was never intended
to work.
I'm a child and familyspecialist.
I was never intended to work.
I'm a child and familyspecialist.
I was never intended to workwith first responders no family,
no friends.
Well, I have many friends now,but I just decided that this was
my people.
This is just how I decided.
(18:30):
But you know, richard, I knowthat I'm curious to know how you
decided.
You know, oh gee, willikers,this is great.
I'm going to put myself in acar with cops who go on calls
and then I'll end up doingtherapy with them in the car.
So how did that come about andwhy is it your population?
Speaker 5 (18:46):
So I have worked with aggressive populations almost
my entire career.
I started years ago inresidential care with violent
teens for an organization calledHillcrest Educational Centers,
which, really, in my mind, wasthis place where it was the last
court of appeals If kids failedout of that, they just went to
(19:07):
jail.
There was no gray area withthat.
I really enjoyed working withthat population.
Then every step of my careerfollowing that was always with
those really hard to managepopulations, and so BHN, which I
worked in at the time for thecrisis team, was starting a
co-responder program, and theypulled me in and were basically
(19:28):
like this is a population youhistorically work with.
Would you like to be one of ourfirst guys to start doing this?
And I started in Holyoke PoliceDepartment literally the most
dangerous city in the state ofMassachusetts and was there for
four years, did every type ofcall, from like active shootings
(19:49):
to suicides.
And, yeah, I realized veryearly in, about two and a half
years in, in, that guys werecoming to me with their problems
just because I was there.
They knew me, they could trustme to hold what they needed me
to hold.
It was.
That was not my job, though,and so I immediately like
(20:10):
started researching.
How do you start a privatepractice?
How do you do those things likeinsurance, all the liability
pieces, and that was where thatwent to was.
I took about two years for meto get comfortable, to the point
where I knew everything was inplace and then I started taking
guys in.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And you know, all I can think of is when you said
Holyoke's the most dangerouscity in Massachusetts Brockton
and Lawrence says thank you.
That's all I can think of.
Sorry, Sorry, guys.
I work with some of these guys.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
I will say that I don't actually consider holyoke
the most dangerous city inmassachusetts, because what they
use to do that metric is theyinclude overdoses as a dangerous
event and so, like that reallyskews the numbers for holy oaks,
the the actual number ofviolent offenses is not as high
(21:00):
as that would suggest.
I just want to tip my hat tothe officers that work out there
and do a great job.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
They also fudge the numbers in richer towns and they
forget about those overdoses.
But anyway, I'm not going tostart talking about my problem
with that.
How about you, lisa?
I mean, you're the OG.
You told us a little bit aboutit, but when did you say, gee,
willikers, these are my people,because you know I've heard
other therapists who work.
You know they have an officeror someone come to them and they
go oh, I'll run for the hillsinstead of doing this.
(21:30):
So how did you decide, gee?
This is really interesting.
This is what I want to continuedoing for the next 10, 15,.
Open a business, start a group.
What made you decide all that?
Speaker 7 (21:40):
Well, I think that it was with that first officer
that showed up at my door.
I felt like I found my people.
I wasn't raised in a firstresponder family, although I
have a lot of military in myfamily and was married to a
military officer, but theability to have a kind of
(22:02):
directive approach and also, youknow, letting the F-bomb fly
was really I felt like I was athome and, yeah, I just felt like
it was just a great fit fromthe beginning.
And you know, that is whatpushed me to want to learn as
(22:22):
much as possible about the field.
And as I look back across mycareer, there were incidents
along the way that always put mein contact with law enforcement
, put me in contact with lawenforcement.
(22:44):
I was one of the first studentsfrom our town of Ludlow their
Citizens.
Police Academy I participated inthat.
I was a social work kind ofintern at our local council on
aging and they put a substationin there and just all of a
sudden guys were coming into myoffice and offloading and I mean
(23:06):
, I was pretty, I was in my 20s,so it was just like all of
these threads throughout mycareer that put me in contact
with law enforcement.
And then when I went to work atBHN as Richard had also worked
there I worked in the trainingdepartment developing trainings,
(23:27):
and they asked me hey, sinceyou have a private practice
working with police, would yoube interested in doing some
trainings for the CIT?
And I said sure.
And then every few months I waspart of, you know, delivering
trainings to the CIT and mostspecifically, one of the first
(23:51):
wellness trainings in CITspecifically for officers.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, and I think the wellness stuff is so important
for officers.
Yeah, and I think the wellnessstuff is so important.
We really need to keep onworking on doing these in
service for officers andfirefighters and, frankly, again
going back to the correctionalstaff and everything else, so I
really believe in that.
Well, jen, I would love to hearyou know what.
What did you decide Like, ohgeez, these are my people.
(24:18):
I would love to hear you knowwhat.
What did you decide Like, ohgeez, these are my people.
Cause I think everyone hastheir story.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Well, I think when, when I I was working at the
uniform services program at theBradwell retreat and I was
working as a mental healthworker just entry-level work and
really enjoyed it, I reallyenjoyed working with them, my
brother's a police officer, myhusband was worked for the
sheriff's department, my son nowis a police officer and a
(24:44):
firefighter.
So I have a lot of family.
But being in the uniformservices program and seeing
people come in and really dowell and then leave and kind of
fall off and have to come back,there was a lot of you know
coming back and everything wasgreat when I was here and I
didn't really know how to holdit together once I was gone.
For me it drove me to go backto school, drove me to go back
(25:06):
and get my master's.
I got my master's, went back tothe uniform services program as
a therapist and again realizedI'm better needed in the
community, not in this program,but so that when people leave
that they have a place andsomeone to help continue the
work that got done while youknow that kind of work and
there's a lot of really goodprograms that people go to and
(25:28):
then don't know what to do whenthey leave.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
And I think that you know I shout out to the
Brattleboro retreat.
When it was around it was oneof my favorite places to send
people and I lived inMorrisville, Vermont, for about
a year and I went down there acouple of times during that time
to do some trainings and stufflike that.
So I really shout out to theBrattleboro Retreat.
Thank you for doing what you do.
Is your family still aroundhere or Vermont, or where are
(25:54):
they?
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Oh, I'm in Gill, massachusetts, so we're kind of
on the border of three statesand my family works in and
around this area.
My husband's retired now.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Well, I'm going to go to Aaron and hear a little more
about why you decided.
You know, besides watching yourfamily go through it, I mean,
what made you decide that?
Geez, this is a good careerchoice.
I do it at home.
Might as well do it for myliving.
Speaker 6 (26:24):
I think it was a few things you know, like looking
back like within working withdrug court I mean some of the
folks I worked with like I cansee the police perspective too
of like you know, here's thereally frustrating people out
there that like you see themover and over again, they just
(26:46):
keep, you know, reoffendingusing drugs.
They're not getting it.
So like I kind of saw like someof the burnout with them and I
picked up on it and that waslike a huge factor eventually
for me to go into privatepractice.
That was like a huge factoreventually for me to go into
private practice.
But I remember from back in thedays when I worked in agencies
I had a couple of clients thatwere medics and I would get them
(27:08):
on my caseload and back inthose days, like you didn't do
your own intakes, like you werejust assigned clients randomly,
randomly, and I would actuallyget in arguments with
psychiatrists because they weredetermined that they were
narcissistic, because they usedark humor to cope with all of
the things they saw and they'relike, well, these guys obviously
(27:29):
just don't care about, you know, seeing dead kids because they
all have like the black cloudsaround them and the biggest
thing is nobody ever asked themwhat they did for work.
They didn't really take thatinto account.
So I would hear it and I waslike, oh well, that completely
makes sense, why you're usinglike the dark humor just for
coping and you're like this istrauma, like this is complex
(27:52):
trauma.
You see it every single day.
You're not showing up onpeople's best days, like if
you've got like 15 calls in a 24hour shift.
That's 15 different traumasthat you're not showing up on
people's best days, like ifyou've got like 15 calls in a 24
hour shift, that's 15 differenttraumas that you're being
witnessed to.
So after seeing them and I justI got it because I've been
around it that was kind of thedirection I started going in At
(28:13):
the time.
I worked out in NortheasternConnecticut and there really
wasn't anything out that way forfirst responders.
There's like a few moreprograms now but like really,
really new, even most ofConnecticut for like critical
incident stress.
It's not what it is here inMassachusetts.
I like to think Massachusettshas it together with like
(28:36):
critical incident stress as I'mand just helping.
So because I think there's moreresources here and I lived in
Massachusetts that it seemednatural that my practice was at
mass and you know, especiallyknowing so many people, because
the first responder world isvery, very small, it becomes
like word of mouth and then it'slike, oh yeah, I can trust this
(28:57):
person.
So that is just word of mouthand you know that's where it
kind of goes from.
From there and I think myapproach where I started working
more with, you know, drug court, which they're also fine and
don't have a problem, it waslike a really easy transition to
work with first responders whoare also fine and don't have a
problem and you know, don't liketo use the other F word,
(29:19):
feelings, so instead we just usethe word stress reactions.
It's a lot easier.
And then it just kind of becamenatural, especially, I said,
with my background workingwithin the court system and you
know that that just seemed likea natural direction to go in.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Well, you know, the drug courts are something that's
really close and dear to me.
I started two in Massachusettsand they're so important to be
had.
And yes, how many times did thecourt officer or probation
officer pull me aside and tellme stuff?
Nevermind the officers.
That's why, like I know, I'mtalking about law enforcement in
general.
Is it different from police toprobation?
(29:53):
A hundred percent?
Not trying to, that's applesand oranges, but law enforcement
officers and firefighters andmilitary, compared to the
general population, apples andcelery, if you ask me.
Speaker 6 (30:06):
Absolutely.
And I mean like even probationofficers, for like they're,
they're just as hard.
And especially me going in as aclinician, nobody wants to talk
to me because I'm a clinician.
So my thing was I always bakeand bring baked goods.
People start talking to you andyou bring baked goods and now,
having a really cute chocolatelab, they warm up right away,
(30:26):
but to this day I still bringbaked goods when I go to
different departments, whetherit be like debriefs or just even
trying to go around andintroduce myself.
I think it makes a hugedifference too If you could put
like a name with a face, notjust oh here, here's a clinician
, and they run in the oppositedirection.
I don't even usually reallyintroduce myself as a clinician
unless I actually have to.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Well, we have a meeting on July 25th.
Just saying and we all likebaked goods here, just saying,
alexa.
Speaker 6 (30:54):
See what I can do.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Oh, we're counting on it.
You know.
There's so many things.
I could continue going on.
This is what's great abouthaving such a large group.
But, alexa, I'd love to hearfrom you what you know, besides
going gee willikers I'm marriedto it might as well get into it
what this made you decide towork with this population,
because this is not a populationthat everyone wants to work
(31:15):
with.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, no, absolutely true, and it's kind of similar
to what Lisa had said.
I feel like I kind of alwaysstumbled into it.
So you know, when you'regetting into this field
sometimes you're kind of allover the place, right?
So I've worked with kids likeelderly in school, but every
single time I always would comeacross military personnel or
first responders and I just keptbeing connected to it and I'll
(31:36):
never forget.
I think I was working for anelder agency out near Boston and
whenever I was doing the visitsI would have not only just a
stigma of the older populationand the family forgets about
them, but that piece of theveteran stuff and then the PTSD
and the alcohol use, and theywere being forgotten about.
And it was just having aconversation sitting with them.
(31:58):
Because, again, I think thatwith them, right, because again
I think that became secondtiered, right, because then they
, oh, my family's older, right,like, oh, we need to forget
about them.
And they're like this is myidentity.
Right, I'm still struggling.
And with that generation, right, the stigma is you didn't go
get help, right, so we have toforget it, but we forget about
it, right, stuff it down.
So I think sometimes when welook at this, we really are like
, okay, what about the youngerpeople?
(32:19):
Right, but it's also over, like70, 80 years old.
I'll never forget when I was atthe VA, I had a Vietnam vet and
police officer come in and hewas 70 years old and he had
walked around with all of thistrauma and he had such a hard
time letting go of that identity, you know, and it broke him.
But I'm like you got throughthe door, right, it's the first
step, I don't care how old youare.
(32:40):
And then the other piece thatreally hit me was when I did
some work at Tewksbury StateHospital on the medical unit and
substance use unit.
Briefly, I was in and outbesides, like the lockdown unit.
But there was this one veteranwho just will always stick with
me and the stigma that he hadwas just like you're in here,
(33:00):
right, you're just anotherperson, you know, when he had
such a strong identity to themilitary, right, and like he had
a really hard time connectinguntil we just sat down and
talked about it, right.
So one of those things is justbuilding rapport with people
Because, again, right, they havethis identity and sometimes
they're then forgotten about,right, it's like you're just a
job and then you're just aperson, but sometimes that is
their whole identity and they'venever even started to pull back
(33:21):
a layer.
So that was such a big piece.
Is working with thesepopulations?
I kept getting drawn back to it, right, even if it was working
with families or kids, I couldsee, you know, when the family
was like first responders andmilitary, it would just have
such a different effect, right,it would affect the family
differently, it would affect theparents, and there was just a
lot of pull back and forth,right.
Like just a lot of things thatI feel like whoever we are
(33:43):
working with couldn't touch it,and I think Erin hit upon it
perfectly.
Right, like that culturalcompetency piece.
Right, like we're drawn to thisfield.
We can kind of like see it froma mile away, right, and no one
else wants to.
Well, sometimes people are likewe really want to go into this
field, right, this is great, butthen they don't know what
they're getting into, right, andthen they end up crying and
then the first responder isholding their hand and that's
not what we came for, right, soit's just really knowing that
(34:06):
you have to be here for thesepeople, and I think we all have
a passion for that, you know.
And then this was something elsethat my husband and I would
talk about, because similar afire lieutenant, and we would
see it even early on right, likein the 20s, 30s and forth right
, and no matter what stageyou're in, like there is such an
effect.
So I think, again, there's notenough people in the community.
It goes back to I forget whosaid it, but I think maybe it
(34:27):
was Erin or Lisa but a lot ofthese veterans that I work with
who are a lot older, they didn'teven know where to go, right,
it's just like here's somethingbroad, right, unless you're
already in the VA sector, you'renot going to know.
So, again, it's just until youactually meet someone, or like,
we kind of have to really digthrough these resources and,
like, culturally competentclinicians are not always known,
so it's hard.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
I agree wholeheartedly.
And the cultural competencypiece is what I felt was missing
with a whole lot of people theday that a first responder told
me the story of going to talk tosomeone who is a trauma
specialist and said a story sodark that the therapist says I
need a few minutes before I canrespond to you and yeah, like
that, like you can't handle myshit and I'm supposed to talk to
(35:11):
you about stuff.
So I think that that's what youknow when you talk about the
cultural competency is soessential because you got to be
able to sit there and take it,so to speak, number one, number
two you know we put in thevetting, vetting process for our
group, dark humor.
People don't understand thatdark humor is essential for
survival.
They think that we're justbeing assholes and I know that.
(35:32):
You know when people do that inmy, my, my sessions, I laugh
with them and I know that mycolleagues who are not working
in this field look at me withlike dread when I do that.
Speaker 6 (35:44):
And they don't get it .
Speaker 1 (35:46):
What the hell's wrong with you?
Speaker 2 (35:47):
And I'm like, but to me it's stupid that they don't
get it, because don't we learnin school to match the client
where they're at?
But anyway, that's just my twocents.
Speaker 6 (36:00):
Let's let me not bitch too much, steve.
You're totally right, too, withthe clinicians that don't get
it.
I've heard from clients likepolice officers that come in
they try to outreach for therapyand the clinician will not work
with them because they don'tsupport the police, which is
appalling, absolutely appalling.
You don't put your own anythinginto the session or they cry
(36:25):
right, I've heard that.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Culturally confident or even missing the fact of when
they say I'm fine, right,that's such a big thing, right,
fine is fucked up, isolated,neurotic and exhausted right or
get frustrated with, like the,the doorknob, like hey, it's
five minutes before a session.
Speaker 6 (36:40):
They don't understand what's what they do is like no,
that's what they do.
Like what they do.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Well, you're talking about a lot of the challenges,
because for me, the doorknobtherapy if my guys know, if they
ever pull that shit, I'm likecome back in.
I go to the waiting room Likeyou're going to wait 10 minutes
and I'm like you're not gettingaway with this crap so they
don't do doorknob therapy withme.
I just put that and then peoplelike, well, you make them one
wait, well, you know what.
A they know how I work and bthey're probably first
(37:08):
responders.
And one of the guys one dayswear to god came in when I
waited for 10 minutes.
He's like, oh, that guy triedto walk away by saying stupid
shit.
Speaker 6 (37:15):
I'm like, yep, that's exactly what happened uh, they
know each other, they all knoweach other anyways.
Yeah, so, like you know,they're fine with it but, but I
think that might be important.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Aaron, maybe you thought you started talking to
conversation.
I'd love to hear more about thedifficulties and challenges,
because it's a it's this is notfor everyone.
This is not for everyone I andI'm not shitting on any
therapist for real but this isnot for everyone.
Speaker 6 (37:39):
I mean, I think, like some of the challenges, it's so
much rapport building and Ithink, for the clients to like
get to know us too, because,like they're sizing us up, like
they totally are the moment theycome in, like the police have,
like you know, like their stancewith, like you know, here's my,
my arms over my chest and gripof my, my vest.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
That's the closed one and this is the open one.
Speaker 6 (38:05):
Yeah, I'm, I'm fine and I think I said it is
building rapport and I like Ithink one of my favorite moments
in sessions is when you knowlike the clients like sitting
there and like their posturesall rigid and like they're
they're clearly anxious andapprehensive, but then they sit
back and they relax and then,like it's usually it takes like
(38:27):
a couple of dark jokes to likereally like bring that like to
the forefront and it's beautifulbecause then they start making
like those connections with you.
And you know, I really thinkyou have to get to know clients
too at like that human level,like you know absolutely like
maintain the boundaries, but youstill have to get to know them
as a human.
They don't want to talk to arobot, they don't want to like
(38:49):
sit there, like well, I can'ttell you anything about myself
because you know boundaries, youthey don't want to talk to a
robot.
They don't want to like sitthere like well, I can't tell
you anything about myselfbecause you know boundaries, you
know they don't want that Like.
You know, if they're coming inand talking to you about all of
this stuff, you still need tolike be able to, you know,
disclose a few things withinreason, right, and just be a
person.
That that's the biggest thingthey, they absolutely don't want
to hear.
Well, how does that make youfeel?
Or you know, oh, what I hearyou telling me is blah, blah,
(39:12):
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
No, like there's ways torephrase stuff and you know,
talk, you know, like a humanopposed to just being like you
know the quote unquote liketherapist, so like I really kind
of strive to be that type ofperson and then it's not as
challenging.
I think for me, honestly, likethe biggest challenge is to not
(39:33):
fit so many EMDR sessions inlike the same day.
And I do it to myself like allthe time and tell myself I'm not
going to do that and then justkeep it up with all the
paperwork.
But I like I love thatdifficult population or you know
, quote unquote difficultpopulation.
I just kind of like breakingthrough some of that resistance
because I don't want to give upon them.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
They just they need to be able to feel comfortable
and open up erin also, you justhave a great way of I feel like
whenever we're talkingprofessionally and just
personally, the power dynamicI've, since day one I've met you
you, just you never make anyonefeel like they're in the other
seat, right, because that's socommon when first responders
come in right, because they'realready in the policy and then,
oh, whether, right, even if it'scourt mandate, whatever that
looks like, are they're beingfor it, right?
(40:15):
we have a lot of the chiefs.
Sometimes you know you need toget a treatment, or blah blah,
and they come in and it's like,okay, well, this is just another
dog, right, doctor,psychiatrist or whatever.
But you, yeah, just the way,that, right.
But maybe it's also the biggoods, I don't know.
Speaker 6 (40:29):
But also, too, sometimes when I open my mouth,
sometimes they don't realizethat they're talking to a
therapist.
Like, did she really just saythat?
Because I will call people outon their shit.
My favorite line is how's thatworking for you?
If I have to dig, dig, dig overand over what brings you in?
I'm getting these vague answersand I'm like, what brings you
(40:49):
in?
I'm getting, like these vagueanswers and I'm like what?
What are you doing?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
you know, or sometimes just even knowing, the
lingo is such a huge thing youknow, I've heard, I've had a
police officer tell me they wentto a therapist and say I went
to a call.
Oh, who called you?
Speaker 6 (41:05):
that's funny, or just like I said, knowing the
difference between dead and deaddead like that's funny.
Or just like I said, knowingthe difference between dead and
dead dead, like that's huge,like I, I've caught people off
guard because I knew what thethat difference was.
Or they come in and they're,you know, like they went to an
accident.
They're like, oh, I have somecool pictures.
I'm like oh yeah, like yeah,you want to see.
I'm like absolutely like, bringthem out, you know.
(41:28):
So, like that, it doesn'treally bother me.
I've always just found like Idon't know, just curiosity.
I found it interesting and wasoriginally kind of what I wanted
to do.
So, like that kind of stuffdoesn't get me is this why we're
?
Speaker 3 (41:42):
is this why we're all friends and we can't function
in society?
Speaker 6 (41:45):
probably, probably.
I mean, I think like to.
One of the other challengeswith it is, you know, I think
for these guys it's not so mucheven like the gruesome stuff,
it's more the, the emotions thatcome along with like live
people and I think that's liketheir grief and I think they
just don't know what to do withthat.
And I mean, as therapists wedon't always know what to do
(42:06):
with it, but they're seeing itlike it's in the forefront in
the moment and I think theimportant thing that they like
can't wrap their heads aroundand they're just like deer in
the headlights with it, like youjust got to let them have their
feelings.
There's nothing you're going todo or say in that moment to
really make them feel better, aslong as you're doing everything
(42:28):
you need to do and focus on thepractical stuff.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
And sometimes it's knowing to build the
relationship.
Sorry, richard, because I, youknow, I have people who I kept.
For a year and a half to twoyears we talked about hockey,
the weather, everything buttherapy, and then one day it's
the trauma dump and I was readyfor it.
But, you know, and he's likewow, you're really patient with
me.
I'm like listen, man, I knowhow this shit works.
(42:50):
You don't want to talk about it.
I'm not going to sit here andsay please talk about it, cause
I, you're not going to talkabout it.
So I think that what I explainedto people is that you need to
like knowing the challenge is,be patient.
Some people will tell you rightaway, and that's great.
I think, as a male with underbail, sometimes I'm not trying
to be sexist, but the truth ismales will be a little more
(43:11):
resistant and want to protectthemselves because they want to
know, like, if I'm vulnerable,is he going to make fun of me?
Is he going to fuck with me?
I shall.
Now I will fuck with themenough for the important stuff,
and that's kind of a very trickything that therapists don't
always understand, because yougot to be able to laugh about
stuff too right.
Speaker 6 (43:27):
You have to like just roll with the resistance.
And you know, even when Isupervise other clinicians, it's
like being patient you havelike I mean sometimes like it's
like I tell them, it's like yougotta wait, like wait it out,
build the rapport like you'regonna be going back and forth
like for a long time, but likeyou gotta build that trust.
Speaker 5 (43:46):
That's how you roll with the resistance there's a,
there's a big part to this where, um, something that we've all
talked about, where andespecially having done it myself
where, like, you don't realizethat you're doing it, when
you're a first responder, whereyou engage in emotional numbing
to protect yourself from thedamages you're being exposed to
(44:07):
on a day-to-day basis.
And I didn't think that that waswhere most of my like therapy
work was really going to focus,like when I started down this
pathway.
But so much of it is justhelping guys reconnect with that
emotions and learning how tobuild those good barriers
between, like, home life andwork life.
And being able to likereconnect with their loved ones
(44:29):
in a meaningful way where theyactually feel joy once again is
just such a rewarding aspect ofthis work.
Where it's like they don'trealize that they're not feeling
those emotions anymore.
They don't even get it untilthey finally like have that,
like you just said, thatepiphany moment, that trauma
dump moment where, like, all ofa sudden, they're done with that
(44:50):
, they're like that, they'relike that's a real emotion.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
I haven't had one of those in ages yeah, and I think
that the other part too is, whenyou think about that, those
emotions, is that you learn thatwhat's socially acceptable
anger and happy, sadness ain'tacceptable, surprise definitely
isn't acceptable.
And fear if you show fear, youare fucked.
And I think it's important torealize that, those core
(45:15):
emotions, getting them toembrace them in their personal
life, when they don't show it upin their work life and I always
tell them I'm like you don'twant to show it at work, I'll
respect that, I have no problemwith that, but you need to be
able to live them somewhere.
Be able to live them somewhereand that's really something
that's kind of important because, while I'm not opposed to
having an officer having a hardday or whatever of any kind, or
(45:35):
a firefighter, but sometimesbeing in the moment showing that
emotion, it's just like mecrying in session while
someone's talking to me.
It'd be a little inappropriate,so um, um, that's something.
Speaker 6 (45:45):
Well, I think that they are.
They are feeling the emotions're just ignoring them, and I
always hear well, I just don'twant to feel, I just want to be
numb.
But I'm like, but really, howis that working?
Because you're feeling thatwouldn't it just be easier to
just maybe focus on them forjust like a little bit, and then
you don't have to feel them asstrong the, the proverbial 10
(46:06):
pounds of shit in a five poundbag, if you ask me.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
But you know, jen, and Jen and Lisa, I mean, what
are your challenges?
What do you face with thoseguys that maybe is a little
different than the regularpopulation or, as they like to
call us, civilians?
Speaker 7 (46:21):
Probably one of the biggest things is their grief
being misread as anger, apathyand burnout.
I've had folks come in and justbe so exasperated by everyone
telling them you know, you'realways angry, You're always this
, you must be burnt out, youmust be this, and you know it
(46:45):
all comes back to oftentimesthat their grief isn't about the
loss of a person.
It's about the loss of control,identity, innocence, purpose,
safety, all of those kinds ofthings.
So I've noticed a lot aroundgrief and being really
(47:07):
misunderstood and grief is sucha complex thing.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
but all due respect to Kubler-Ross's model, which is
a great start off, it doesn'texplain all of it, for sure.
And again, respect to Elizabeth, rest your soul.
But I think there's a lot moreto grief than just five stages
and having an end goal, if youask me.
But, jen, what about you?
(47:30):
I want to hear more about yourdifficulties that you face.
Speaker 4 (47:34):
I think one of the hardest things to when I work
with people is that, the ideathat you have to embrace the
shit to be able to feel thepositive, like they go hand in
hand there, you know you have tobe able to walk through the
pile of manure to find the daisyon the other side of the manure
.
You have to kind of be inyourself and that and that's not
fun and it doesn't always feelgood.
(47:55):
I describe people as like thatwater dragon that runs across
the top of the water and ifyou're going through life like
that, sometimes you have to sitand kind of you know, tread
water, sit in it, be in it andfeel everything, all the yucky
stuff, so that you can have allthe amazing things.
I think that training helps.
(48:17):
They put their uniforms on,their training kicks in and they
go and they do what they haveto do and they are a bit numb to
it, but it's still stuck thereand when they take their
uniforms off it's still.
You still have to sift throughit and and put it somewhere.
Compartmentalized is issomething that you know we all
work to unfurl.
But I really think the hardestthing is people don't want to
(48:41):
deal with the yucky stuff.
They don't want to, they don'twant to burden other people and
they don't want to burden us,they don't want to burden their
family members.
So they kind of hold it insideand realizing that once you
start letting some of that outand let some of that go and sit
in the muck and the mire thatthere is.
There is positivity on theother side of it.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Don't tell them positivity, they're just going
to run away.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
Jen, you hit such a good point with that and I just
want to touch upon the familyaspect of that for a sec.
First talk about right, they'recarrying so much of the weight
on themselves, right, and thensometimes spouses or family
members will be like I'm so mad,right, my, my first responder,
my military person, spouse,whatever, um doesn't share,
right.
And then they tell us, well,I'm actually trying to protect
them from it, right, they'rejust carrying all that weight,
(49:25):
right.
It's not about anger, likedisconnect sometimes, it's just
they're also trying to protect.
But then who's going to protectthem?
Right?
Speaker 4 (49:31):
And I think we've had every single one of us has had
someone say to them I don'treally want to share this with
you because I don't like talkingabout it and I don't want to
put it on you as well.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
So there is like put it on us, this is what we're
here for, right, and no one hasever been able to do that for
them sometimes Right.
Speaker 6 (49:47):
But the other thing, too, is like for spouses like
Alexa.
I don't know about you, and thesame thing with Jen is that you
know, we hear that they went tosomething.
We have no idea what it is.
We have amazing imaginations.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Like yes.
Speaker 6 (50:00):
I mean I go straight to, like you know, like
something like crazy cinematiclike Chicago fire, yeah, like
that.
What I think is going on, withblood spurting out everywhere or
brain splatter on the wall.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
I can't right, right amazing imaginations yeah, we
know, right, when it's um thisis something else to talk about
terminology and just as a spouse.
But even in the clinical field,right, like if it's a child,
you know rescue, recovery, right.
Sometimes you know immediately,right, all these different
things and um.
But even I think, sometimes asa spouse or a family member or a
friend, sometimes our clinicalbrain gets put on the backside,
(50:32):
right.
Sometimes I would say like when, after I'm done work, sometimes
I become the client, becausethere's moments and days where
I'm like this is hard, right, orlike we get back into being
like a family member, a spouseor friend, to like I'm really
worried.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Right and I think that we we can put our training
aside.
I mean, like I said, I'm achild and family specialist.
Pretty, training aside.
I mean, like I said, I'm achild and family specialist
Pretty sure my daughters wouldhave a field day on this podcast
talking about how crappy of adad I am.
I know I do good overall, butthere's things in life you just
forget about your training.
You just become a human, whichreminds me that we got to be
human here and I got to beprecious about the time for
everyone.
(51:04):
Obviously, we got through twoquestions out of the 12 that I
received, so this is typicallywhat this group does is we're
good at talking.
We share.
Well, come back and even at onepoint I'd love to have
individual interviews with youguys, because that would be
great, give us more time andin-depth for everyone's story.
But we'll look in the beginningof the fall.
(51:24):
I know we're going to see eachother in a couple of weeks, but
I want to thank you all for yourtime and I appreciate it and
hopefully we'll talk soon.
And to everyone who's listening, episode 215 will be out in
about a week and go listen tothat and thank you for your time
.
Speaker 3 (51:38):
Thank you for having us Thank you for this group too.
Love you all.
Speaker 6 (51:42):
Good to see.
Everybody Appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(52:10):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 214.
If you haven't listened toepisode 213 yet, that was me
talking about my birthday, whatit means to me and all that fun
stuff, and don't forget to checkout.
I'm going to have some extrastuff on the premium podcast
Only three bucks a month reallygood, go listen to it.
But episode 214 will be with agroup that lisa knowles, who I
(01:05):
will describe who she is veryshortly, but lisa knowles
started a few like about a yearago of culturally competent
therapists in massachusetts andI'm very honored to say that
they invited me for the thirdmeeting maybe.
So I've been part of thecoalition for a short while
right now, but we're really.
We now have a name.
It's called Behind the Badgeand Beyond, and for me, like I
(01:29):
want to give all theirbiographies, but I can't because
it's going to be too long andthey're going to talk about it
anyway.
But Richard Winning is someonewho got his master's in social
work at Westfield StateUniversity, currently volunteers
on the alumni association there.
He began responding with policeto acute psychiatric crisis in
2017.
And from there he got hispart-time work and then became
(01:52):
this is a full-time job now andhe specializes in police, fire,
ems and ER staff, which is whatwe're going to talk about anyway
.
Alexa Silva is someone Iactually you know.
I met through a long time agonot too long ago, about a year
ago and then we kept on stayingin contact.
She invited me to the coalition.
She also is someone who hasworked with first responders for
(02:13):
a long time.
She has EMDR and CISM training.
She focuses on individual andcouples and she blends expertise
with personal experience due tobeing married to a firefighter.
She blends expertise withpersonal experience due to being
married to a firefighter and,with over five and a half years
of sobriety, she offers a liveperspective that deeply, deeply
affects and influences in a goodway the first respondent
(02:34):
military community.
She brought her personaljourney in.
I hope and can't wait to hearfrom her.
And then there's JenniferWaldron, who is someone who
worked up in Battleboro, vermont, at the retreat there.
I actually remember when Iworked in Vermont from the
Battleboro retreat I had sentsome people there, obviously
from Mass too, but I remember mytimes in Vermont.
(02:55):
She worked as a correctionalofficer as well as an acute
psychiatric hospital, so sheserved a uniformed personnel
psychiatric hospital, so sheserved a uniformed personnel.
She's dedicated to creating asafe and supportive environment
for first responders, uniformedpersonnel, and be socially and
not socially, but culturallycompetent, which is so important
in this field, and I'm surewe're going to bring that up on
(03:16):
the conversation.
Lisa Knowles is the founder of Ican't remember what the
official name was originally,but now it is the Behind the
Badge and Beyond.
She's the original founder.
She's in Ludlow, massachusetts,with her practice.
She started off.
She's been doing the work since2012.
Her direct, grounded approachand cultural competency has
helped her build trust with herindividuals a group that we have
(03:46):
now and she wants to unite allclinicians that are culturally
competent with first respondersto join and work together so
that we have all these greatresources.
Erin Sheridan is someone I alsomet through the coalition Super
nice.
We've exchanged several timessince then.
She has a solo private practicethat works with first
responders veterans.
She graduated from Anna MariaCollege and got her master's
also in counseling psych Beendoing this since 2008.
(04:08):
She worked for IOP PHPintensive outpatient partial
hospitalization.
She's the clinical director ofher local CISM team excuse me
for the last three years and shehas extensive training.
She's also a spouse and familymember of first responders and
finally, but not less, is mewho's going to be talking about
(04:29):
all this with everyone, and Ihope you enjoy it.
And here's the interviewGetfreeai, you heard me talk
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I've had about a year and ahalf 18 months practice with it
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(05:54):
you to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcometo episode 214.
This is a very special episodeto me because these are
individuals who took me in a fewmonths ago and we were trying
to work on a great project, andwe are continuing to create a
project that now has a name andeverything else which is Behind
(06:16):
the Badge and Beyond, and Ireally appreciate this group,
the group being Lisa Knowles,richard Wenning, aaron Sheridan,
alexa Silva and Jennifer Walden.
Hi everyone, and welcome toRecovery Development in Action.
You get to see my home studio.
I couldn't make it to my worktoday.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
Thanks for having us Hi.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Well, you know, it's funny because this group,
honestly, when we get togetherwe can't shut up.
And then we get here and I feellike everyone's so nervous.
This is like a conversation,guys, where we're dedicated,
like you know.
Give it a little bit of thegroup this.
You know, when it was startedit was for really Massachusetts
and therapists who are seekingto help first responders, and
(06:57):
it's become even more organizedas we've gone along.
We got a little logo andeverything.
Now we have a website justcopyrighted the name.
So there's a lot of good stuffgoing on.
But you know, I know you guys,except for Jen.
I haven't met Jen, so I'm goingto start with her.
How about you introduceyourself, jen?
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Hi, I'm Jen Waldron.
I have been a clinician for 10years now.
I work with first respondersexclusively and uniform service
members.
I've included them.
I don't really know whatspecifically to say.
I'm surrounded by firstresponders, married to a first
responder, I wore a uniform.
(07:35):
I was a corrections officer.
I understand the community andthere was no question what
community I was going to beworking with once I started and
once I became a therapist.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Well, I think you said plenty.
Where were you?
A correctional officer at theMCIs, or?
Speaker 4 (07:50):
At Franklin County.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Well, I worked in a prison a couple of times so I
didn't serve, I promise, but Iguess I didn't at the hall for a
couple of years.
So I really respect mycorrectional staff.
In fact they're invited to mygroup that I have.
I think correctional staff haveit as first responders because
they're pretty much all I wouldsay all three because they got
to do medical also.
So they definitely have thosethings within what I call a
(08:16):
different culture, so we cantalk about the CEO culture
forever.
But welcome, jen, thank you,and Alexa in the top left corner
on my computer, how about yougo next?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Okay, great.
Yes, Hi, my name is AlexisSilva.
I'm also a clinician thatspecializes in working with the
military personnel and firstresponders and, like Jen, I come
from a family of firstresponders and a big reason why
I actually got into this isbecause of my husband.
So being married to a Marineveteran and a firefighter really
(08:52):
kind of gave me that open eyeof okay, when we're not doing
this right in the field, cominghome to it and really seeing the
personal level of it.
My background is social work andI thought I was going to go get
a PhD and I did my firstmaster's in social community
psych and I was like what thehell is this?
And I did not want to go doresearch or do any of that stuff
for another seven years.
So then I got another master'sin social work and I really
(09:14):
wanted to get into the clinicalpiece.
But I really, again, love theconcept of what we do clinically
but also taking what we have athome and being from a know from
a, being from a family of firstresponders, being a spouse,
being a friend, children, right,Anything, and then how we can
really relate that.
So with that too, I've had areally great experience of
(09:35):
working with individuals in thisfield individually, but also at
a couple's level, and sometimesthat can be hard to navigate.
So I know we'll talk more aboutthat.
But yeah, just love what I do.
I don't have the personalbackground of doing the job
every day, but I do have thefamily piece.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
So Well, welcome Alexa.
And yes, the family stuff.
A couple of episodes ago I hadsomeone talk about the quote
she's for Cindy Doyle from CodeFour for Couples.
Oh, she's great, she's amazing,and you know I had so many
messages from family memberssaying thank you for addressing
this stuff, so it's somethingthat really is needed to be
addressed.
And you know another one who'smarried to the profession
(10:13):
essentially.
So thank you, alexa.
How about we go with RichardJust trying to mix it up on my
board here?
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Yeah, so my name is Richard Winning.
I'm the owner operator ofResponders Refuge I, for the
(10:43):
last for my colleagues that wereuh doing the work with me.
Um, so I decided to start startby opening my private practice
and uh have uh recently, indecember, went full-time into
the private practice becausethere's just so much demand and
so much need.
Speaker 6 (11:00):
well, very happy and I just hired.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
Just hired my first additional employee last week.
Speaker 7 (11:04):
Congratulations.
That's good too.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Cultural competence.
Speaker 7 (11:08):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
With cultural competence, Richard yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
Oh yeah, she was one of my co-responders, so she had
left that work and I told herthat as soon as I had enough
people lined up on the docketthat I would invite her in.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
That's awesome.
We need more culturallycompetent people.
Hopefully we'll bring that uptoo later on, cause that's
that's that's why we lose halfthe people going to therapy.
They don't have the culturalcompetency, so really appreciate
that.
How about we go?
I'll go with.
I'll go with Erin, cause.
I'll finish off with Lisa,cause you know, as the one who
got us all together, I want totalk to her last, erin.
(11:45):
How about you go next?
Speaker 6 (11:47):
hi, I'm Erin Sheridan .
I've been a clinician for 17ish years.
I started off my careeractually as an addiction
counselor doing drug court downin Connecticut so I'm licensed
down there as well and theneventually became mental health
counselor.
I come from family with firstresponders.
(12:09):
I actually wanted to be acanine officer.
My bachelor's degree is incriminal justice.
Started off like interning withlike probation within the whole
court system, interned withlike police stations, so that
was kind of like my directionthat I wanted to go.
Then life took some turns andhere I am counseling.
So I've had my practice,beautifully Unbroken Counseling,
(12:31):
since 2021, where I've beenmajority, majority, majority.
There we go Working with firstresponders and veterans in
Starbridge Mass insurance inSturbridge Mass, and I also am
the clinical director for theCentral Mass Critical Incident
Stress Management Team, which isnear and dear to my heart.
And, like I said, I came fromfamily with first responders and
(12:54):
then I loved it so much Imarried into it.
So I'm married to a firelieutenant and public safety
diver.
So I really wanted to have arelationship that was super
healthy within first responders,because I've seen it go the
opposite way and that's kind ofalways been my goal.
But yeah, that's what drove meto work with first responders.
I absolutely love it.
(13:15):
I love the challenges that comewith it.
I tend to, I feel like, fit inmore with that first responder
personality than a lot ofclinicians.
So we laugh a lot at work.
You know, there's the darkhumor, but there's also times to
be serious.
Majority of my practice isdoing EMDR and I'm also training
(13:35):
a chocolate lab to become atherapy dog.
She actually just turned twoyesterday, so hopefully we'll be
starting that process soon.
Well, you know the promopicture will be used as canine
Bella, so it we'll be startingthat process soon.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Well, you know the promo picture will be you.
It says canine Bella, so itwon't be a secret by then.
Just want to mention that.
But welcome, and last butcertainly not least, Lisa
Knowles, I want to hear from youbecause you, you know, I, I got
this invitation, this group,through you.
I know Alexa had contacted me,but I really appreciate it and
(14:06):
you know, I know the importantwork you do.
But please share the OG.
She is the OG.
She is the OG.
Speaker 7 (14:12):
Oh, my goodness.
Well, thank you so much.
You know I have to mirror whatAaron said I absolutely love
doing this work and working withthis population said I
absolutely love doing this workand working with this population
.
And the passion and the drivestarted in 2012 when a uniformed
(14:32):
officer in crisis showed up atmy little office in the back of
the building and my initialreaction was, oh shit, what did
I do?
But quickly it shifted tocompassion and connection with
him and I realized he wasn'tthere for me and I needed to be
there for him.
(14:52):
And his vulnerability reallyopened my eyes to how few safe
and judgment-free spaces existfor first responders and
especially police officers, andhis journey alone showed me
what's possible when trust andconsistency are present.
(15:16):
It revealed this massive unmetneed.
I started getting word-of mouthreferrals all hours of the
night.
It just showed how starved thecommunity was for culturally
competent care, and that reallypushed me and pushed my skills,
wanting to learn more, and I sawthis systemic gap and I felt,
(15:41):
like you know, I really need tofill this, and not just with
therapy, but with understandingand advocacy.
And then, when I started doingall this, I really felt like I
was on an island and by myself,but I knew that there were
others out there like me and Idesperately wanted connection.
(16:02):
So I started researching andtrying to find folks, and I
think Erin was the very firstperson that I found and she's
been amazing and helpfulthroughout this journey and
connected me to other people andall of you that are here and
then our newer members.
(16:22):
So I feel, you know, reallyexcited about what's in the
future for us all, and so I'mreally just glad to be here and
for all of you.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Well, thanks to you, there's episode 214 now on
resilience, development andaction.
So thank you for that.
And do we call Erin the secondOG?
What do we call her?
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
Second OG.
I was just excited to make afriend Me too.
Making friends with an adult ishard.
It is.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
The other thing that's fantastic is we've been
going on for about 10 minutesand no one's sworn.
There's no swearing yet.
That's really shocking to me,actually.
Speaker 7 (17:05):
I'll be perfectly honest Well.
I said oh shit.
I said oh shit.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, there's no bleeping on my podcast.
I don't bleep anyone.
Authenticity is what counts andhell, we wouldn't be doing this
job if we weren't authentic.
That so authenticity is whatcounts and hell, we wouldn't be
doing this job if we weren'tauthentic.
That's just my view.
You know.
There's a couple of things thatcame up that I really want to
mention is that, to me, havingworked in the correctional
facilities, working at the drugcourts, the high functioning,
most dysfunctional people youknow they're all high
(17:48):
functioning but they have allshit goes down and not all of
them.
I don't want any emails.
You know all of us are fuckedup and I'm okay, I get it, but
the point is, is that that'swhat really to me?
What's fascinating to me isthat's my, my jam.
I worked in community settingsand hearts places.
That was fun for a while, but Ifascinating to me is that's my
jam.
I worked in community settingsand hearts places.
That was fun for a while, but Iwanted to work with a different
population.
This is something I embracedsince 2000, and I don't regret
one single second yet.
(18:09):
Maybe sometimes, but you knowwhat?
That's a little bit of how Istarted and I was never intended
to work.
I'm a child and familyspecialist.
I was never intended to work.
I'm a child and familyspecialist.
I was never intended to workwith first responders no family,
no friends.
Well, I have many friends now,but I just decided that this was
my people.
This is just how I decided.
(18:30):
But you know, richard, I knowthat I'm curious to know how you
decided.
You know, oh gee, willikers,this is great.
I'm going to put myself in acar with cops who go on calls
and then I'll end up doingtherapy with them in the car.
So how did that come about andwhy is it your population?
Speaker 5 (18:46):
So I have worked with aggressive populations almost
my entire career.
I started years ago inresidential care with violent
teens for an organization calledHillcrest Educational Centers,
which, really, in my mind, wasthis place where it was the last
court of appeals If kids failedout of that, they just went to
(19:07):
jail.
There was no gray area withthat.
I really enjoyed working withthat population.
Then every step of my careerfollowing that was always with
those really hard to managepopulations, and so BHN, which I
worked in at the time for thecrisis team, was starting a
co-responder program, and theypulled me in and were basically
(19:28):
like this is a population youhistorically work with.
Would you like to be one of ourfirst guys to start doing this?
And I started in Holyoke PoliceDepartment literally the most
dangerous city in the state ofMassachusetts and was there for
four years, did every type ofcall, from like active shootings
(19:49):
to suicides.
And, yeah, I realized veryearly in, about two and a half
years in, in, that guys werecoming to me with their problems
just because I was there.
They knew me, they could trustme to hold what they needed me
to hold.
It was.
That was not my job, though,and so I immediately like
(20:10):
started researching.
How do you start a privatepractice?
How do you do those things likeinsurance, all the liability
pieces, and that was where thatwent to was.
I took about two years for meto get comfortable, to the point
where I knew everything was inplace and then I started taking
guys in.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And you know, all I can think of is when you said
Holyoke's the most dangerouscity in Massachusetts Brockton
and Lawrence says thank you.
That's all I can think of.
Sorry, Sorry, guys.
I work with some of these guys.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
I will say that I don't actually consider holyoke
the most dangerous city inmassachusetts, because what they
use to do that metric is theyinclude overdoses as a dangerous
event and so, like that reallyskews the numbers for holy oaks,
the the actual number ofviolent offenses is not as high
(21:00):
as that would suggest.
I just want to tip my hat tothe officers that work out there
and do a great job.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
They also fudge the numbers in richer towns and they
forget about those overdoses.
But anyway, I'm not going tostart talking about my problem
with that.
How about you, lisa?
I mean, you're the OG.
You told us a little bit aboutit, but when did you say, gee,
willikers, these are my people,because you know I've heard
other therapists who work.
You know they have an officeror someone come to them and they
go oh, I'll run for the hillsinstead of doing this.
(21:30):
So how did you decide, gee?
This is really interesting.
This is what I want to continuedoing for the next 10, 15,.
Open a business, start a group.
What made you decide all that?
Speaker 7 (21:40):
Well, I think that it was with that first officer
that showed up at my door.
I felt like I found my people.
I wasn't raised in a firstresponder family, although I
have a lot of military in myfamily and was married to a
military officer, but theability to have a kind of
(22:02):
directive approach and also, youknow, letting the F-bomb fly
was really I felt like I was athome and, yeah, I just felt like
it was just a great fit fromthe beginning.
And you know, that is whatpushed me to want to learn as
(22:22):
much as possible about the field.
And as I look back across mycareer, there were incidents
along the way that always put mein contact with law enforcement
, put me in contact with lawenforcement.
(22:44):
I was one of the first studentsfrom our town of Ludlow their
Citizens.
Police Academy I participated inthat.
I was a social work kind ofintern at our local council on
aging and they put a substationin there and just all of a
sudden guys were coming into myoffice and offloading and I mean
(23:06):
, I was pretty, I was in my 20s,so it was just like all of
these threads throughout mycareer that put me in contact
with law enforcement.
And then when I went to work atBHN as Richard had also worked
there I worked in the trainingdepartment developing trainings,
(23:27):
and they asked me hey, sinceyou have a private practice
working with police, would yoube interested in doing some
trainings for the CIT?
And I said sure.
And then every few months I waspart of, you know, delivering
trainings to the CIT and mostspecifically, one of the first
(23:51):
wellness trainings in CITspecifically for officers.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, and I think the wellness stuff is so important
for officers.
Yeah, and I think the wellnessstuff is so important.
We really need to keep onworking on doing these in
service for officers andfirefighters and, frankly, again
going back to the correctionalstaff and everything else, so I
really believe in that.
Well, jen, I would love to hearyou know what.
What did you decide Like, ohgeez, these are my people.
(24:18):
I would love to hear you knowwhat.
What did you decide Like, ohgeez, these are my people.
Cause I think everyone hastheir story.
Speaker 4 (24:21):
Well, I think when, when I I was working at the
uniform services program at theBradwell retreat and I was
working as a mental healthworker just entry-level work and
really enjoyed it, I reallyenjoyed working with them, my
brother's a police officer, myhusband was worked for the
sheriff's department, my son nowis a police officer and a
(24:44):
firefighter.
So I have a lot of family.
But being in the uniformservices program and seeing
people come in and really dowell and then leave and kind of
fall off and have to come back,there was a lot of you know
coming back and everything wasgreat when I was here and I
didn't really know how to holdit together once I was gone.
For me it drove me to go backto school, drove me to go back
(25:06):
and get my master's.
I got my master's, went back tothe uniform services program as
a therapist and again realizedI'm better needed in the
community, not in this program,but so that when people leave
that they have a place andsomeone to help continue the
work that got done while youknow that kind of work and
there's a lot of really goodprograms that people go to and
(25:28):
then don't know what to do whenthey leave.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
And I think that you know I shout out to the
Brattleboro retreat.
When it was around it was oneof my favorite places to send
people and I lived inMorrisville, Vermont, for about
a year and I went down there acouple of times during that time
to do some trainings and stufflike that.
So I really shout out to theBrattleboro Retreat.
Thank you for doing what you do.
Is your family still aroundhere or Vermont, or where are
(25:54):
they?
Speaker 4 (25:55):
Oh, I'm in Gill, massachusetts, so we're kind of
on the border of three statesand my family works in and
around this area.
My husband's retired now.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Well, I'm going to go to Aaron and hear a little more
about why you decided.
You know, besides watching yourfamily go through it, I mean,
what made you decide that?
Geez, this is a good careerchoice.
I do it at home.
Might as well do it for myliving.
Speaker 6 (26:24):
I think it was a few things you know, like looking
back like within working withdrug court I mean some of the
folks I worked with like I cansee the police perspective too
of like you know, here's thereally frustrating people out
there that like you see themover and over again, they just
(26:46):
keep, you know, reoffendingusing drugs.
They're not getting it.
So like I kind of saw like someof the burnout with them and I
picked up on it and that waslike a huge factor eventually
for me to go into privatepractice.
That was like a huge factoreventually for me to go into
private practice.
But I remember from back in thedays when I worked in agencies
I had a couple of clients thatwere medics and I would get them
(27:08):
on my caseload and back inthose days, like you didn't do
your own intakes, like you werejust assigned clients randomly,
randomly, and I would actuallyget in arguments with
psychiatrists because they weredetermined that they were
narcissistic, because they usedark humor to cope with all of
the things they saw and they'relike, well, these guys obviously
(27:29):
just don't care about, you know, seeing dead kids because they
all have like the black cloudsaround them and the biggest
thing is nobody ever asked themwhat they did for work.
They didn't really take thatinto account.
So I would hear it and I waslike, oh well, that completely
makes sense, why you're usinglike the dark humor just for
coping and you're like this istrauma, like this is complex
(27:52):
trauma.
You see it every single day.
You're not showing up onpeople's best days, like if
you've got like 15 calls in a 24hour shift.
That's 15 different traumasthat you're not showing up on
people's best days, like ifyou've got like 15 calls in a 24
hour shift, that's 15 differenttraumas that you're being
witnessed to.
So after seeing them and I justI got it because I've been
around it that was kind of thedirection I started going in At
(28:13):
the time.
I worked out in NortheasternConnecticut and there really
wasn't anything out that way forfirst responders.
There's like a few moreprograms now but like really,
really new, even most ofConnecticut for like critical
incident stress.
It's not what it is here inMassachusetts.
I like to think Massachusettshas it together with like
(28:36):
critical incident stress as I'mand just helping.
So because I think there's moreresources here and I lived in
Massachusetts that it seemednatural that my practice was at
mass and you know, especiallyknowing so many people, because
the first responder world isvery, very small, it becomes
like word of mouth and then it'slike, oh yeah, I can trust this
(28:57):
person.
So that is just word of mouthand you know that's where it
kind of goes from.
From there and I think myapproach where I started working
more with, you know, drug court, which they're also fine and
don't have a problem, it waslike a really easy transition to
work with first responders whoare also fine and don't have a
problem and you know, don't liketo use the other F word,
(29:19):
feelings, so instead we just usethe word stress reactions.
It's a lot easier.
And then it just kind of becamenatural, especially, I said,
with my background workingwithin the court system and you
know that that just seemed likea natural direction to go in.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Well, you know, the drug courts are something that's
really close and dear to me.
I started two in Massachusettsand they're so important to be
had.
And yes, how many times did thecourt officer or probation
officer pull me aside and tellme stuff?
Nevermind the officers.
That's why, like I know, I'mtalking about law enforcement in
general.
Is it different from police toprobation?
(29:53):
A hundred percent?
Not trying to, that's applesand oranges, but law enforcement
officers and firefighters andmilitary, compared to the
general population, apples andcelery, if you ask me.
Speaker 6 (30:06):
Absolutely.
And I mean like even probationofficers, for like they're,
they're just as hard.
And especially me going in as aclinician, nobody wants to talk
to me because I'm a clinician.
So my thing was I always bakeand bring baked goods.
People start talking to you andyou bring baked goods and now,
having a really cute chocolatelab, they warm up right away,
(30:26):
but to this day I still bringbaked goods when I go to
different departments, whetherit be like debriefs or just even
trying to go around andintroduce myself.
I think it makes a hugedifference too If you could put
like a name with a face, notjust oh here, here's a clinician
, and they run in the oppositedirection.
I don't even usually reallyintroduce myself as a clinician
unless I actually have to.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Well, we have a meeting on July 25th.
Just saying and we all likebaked goods here, just saying,
alexa.
Speaker 6 (30:54):
See what I can do.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Oh, we're counting on it.
You know.
There's so many things.
I could continue going on.
This is what's great abouthaving such a large group.
But, alexa, I'd love to hearfrom you what you know, besides
going gee willikers I'm marriedto it might as well get into it
what this made you decide towork with this population,
because this is not a populationthat everyone wants to work
(31:15):
with.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Yeah, no, absolutely true, and it's kind of similar
to what Lisa had said.
I feel like I kind of alwaysstumbled into it.
So you know, when you'regetting into this field
sometimes you're kind of allover the place, right?
So I've worked with kids likeelderly in school, but every
single time I always would comeacross military personnel or
first responders and I just keptbeing connected to it and I'll
(31:36):
never forget.
I think I was working for anelder agency out near Boston and
whenever I was doing the visitsI would have not only just a
stigma of the older populationand the family forgets about
them, but that piece of theveteran stuff and then the PTSD
and the alcohol use, and theywere being forgotten about.
And it was just having aconversation sitting with them.
(31:58):
Because, again, I think thatwith them, right, because again
I think that became secondtiered, right, because then they
, oh, my family's older, right,like, oh, we need to forget
about them.
And they're like this is myidentity.
Right, I'm still struggling.
And with that generation, right, the stigma is you didn't go
get help, right, so we have toforget it, but we forget about
it, right, stuff it down.
So I think sometimes when welook at this, we really are like
, okay, what about the youngerpeople?
(32:19):
Right, but it's also over, like70, 80 years old.
I'll never forget when I was atthe VA, I had a Vietnam vet and
police officer come in and hewas 70 years old and he had
walked around with all of thistrauma and he had such a hard
time letting go of that identity, you know, and it broke him.
But I'm like you got throughthe door, right, it's the first
step, I don't care how old youare.
(32:40):
And then the other piece thatreally hit me was when I did
some work at Tewksbury StateHospital on the medical unit and
substance use unit.
Briefly, I was in and outbesides, like the lockdown unit.
But there was this one veteranwho just will always stick with
me and the stigma that he hadwas just like you're in here,
(33:00):
right, you're just anotherperson, you know, when he had
such a strong identity to themilitary, right, and like he had
a really hard time connectinguntil we just sat down and
talked about it, right.
So one of those things is justbuilding rapport with people
Because, again, right, they havethis identity and sometimes
they're then forgotten about,right, it's like you're just a
job and then you're just aperson, but sometimes that is
their whole identity and they'venever even started to pull back
(33:21):
a layer.
So that was such a big piece.
Is working with thesepopulations?
I kept getting drawn back to it, right, even if it was working
with families or kids, I couldsee, you know, when the family
was like first responders andmilitary, it would just have
such a different effect, right,it would affect the family
differently, it would affect theparents, and there was just a
lot of pull back and forth,right.
Like just a lot of things thatI feel like whoever we are
(33:43):
working with couldn't touch it,and I think Erin hit upon it
perfectly.
Right, like that culturalcompetency piece.
Right, like we're drawn to thisfield.
We can kind of like see it froma mile away, right, and no one
else wants to.
Well, sometimes people are likewe really want to go into this
field, right, this is great, butthen they don't know what
they're getting into, right, andthen they end up crying and
then the first responder isholding their hand and that's
not what we came for, right, soit's just really knowing that
(34:06):
you have to be here for thesepeople, and I think we all have
a passion for that, you know.
And then this was something elsethat my husband and I would
talk about, because similar afire lieutenant, and we would
see it even early on right, likein the 20s, 30s and forth right
, and no matter what stageyou're in, like there is such an
effect.
So I think, again, there's notenough people in the community.
It goes back to I forget whosaid it, but I think maybe it
(34:27):
was Erin or Lisa but a lot ofthese veterans that I work with
who are a lot older, they didn'teven know where to go, right,
it's just like here's somethingbroad, right, unless you're
already in the VA sector, you'renot going to know.
So, again, it's just until youactually meet someone, or like,
we kind of have to really digthrough these resources and,
like, culturally competentclinicians are not always known,
so it's hard.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
I agree wholeheartedly.
And the cultural competencypiece is what I felt was missing
with a whole lot of people theday that a first responder told
me the story of going to talk tosomeone who is a trauma
specialist and said a story sodark that the therapist says I
need a few minutes before I canrespond to you and yeah, like
that, like you can't handle myshit and I'm supposed to talk to
(35:11):
you about stuff.
So I think that that's what youknow when you talk about the
cultural competency is soessential because you got to be
able to sit there and take it,so to speak, number one, number
two you know we put in thevetting, vetting process for our
group, dark humor.
People don't understand thatdark humor is essential for
survival.
They think that we're justbeing assholes and I know that.
(35:32):
You know when people do that inmy, my, my sessions, I laugh
with them and I know that mycolleagues who are not working
in this field look at me withlike dread when I do that.
Speaker 6 (35:44):
And they don't get it .
Speaker 1 (35:46):
What the hell's wrong with you?
Speaker 2 (35:47):
And I'm like, but to me it's stupid that they don't
get it, because don't we learnin school to match the client
where they're at?
But anyway, that's just my twocents.
Speaker 6 (36:00):
Let's let me not bitch too much, steve.
You're totally right, too, withthe clinicians that don't get
it.
I've heard from clients likepolice officers that come in
they try to outreach for therapyand the clinician will not work
with them because they don'tsupport the police, which is
appalling, absolutely appalling.
You don't put your own anythinginto the session or they cry
(36:25):
right, I've heard that.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Culturally confident or even missing the fact of when
they say I'm fine, right,that's such a big thing, right,
fine is fucked up, isolated,neurotic and exhausted right or
get frustrated with, like the,the doorknob, like hey, it's
five minutes before a session.
Speaker 6 (36:40):
They don't understand what's what they do is like no,
that's what they do.
Like what they do.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Well, you're talking about a lot of the challenges,
because for me, the doorknobtherapy if my guys know, if they
ever pull that shit, I'm likecome back in.
I go to the waiting room Likeyou're going to wait 10 minutes
and I'm like you're not gettingaway with this crap so they
don't do doorknob therapy withme.
I just put that and then peoplelike, well, you make them one
wait, well, you know what.
A they know how I work and bthey're probably first
(37:08):
responders.
And one of the guys one dayswear to god came in when I
waited for 10 minutes.
He's like, oh, that guy triedto walk away by saying stupid
shit.
Speaker 6 (37:15):
I'm like, yep, that's exactly what happened uh, they
know each other, they all knoweach other anyways.
Yeah, so, like you know,they're fine with it but, but I
think that might be important.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Aaron, maybe you thought you started talking to
conversation.
I'd love to hear more about thedifficulties and challenges,
because it's a it's this is notfor everyone.
This is not for everyone I andI'm not shitting on any
therapist for real but this isnot for everyone.
Speaker 6 (37:39):
I mean, I think, like some of the challenges, it's so
much rapport building and Ithink, for the clients to like
get to know us too, because,like they're sizing us up, like
they totally are the moment theycome in, like the police have,
like you know, like their stancewith, like you know, here's my,
my arms over my chest and gripof my, my vest.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
That's the closed one and this is the open one.
Speaker 6 (38:05):
Yeah, I'm, I'm fine and I think I said it is
building rapport and I like Ithink one of my favorite moments
in sessions is when you knowlike the clients like sitting
there and like their posturesall rigid and like they're
they're clearly anxious andapprehensive, but then they sit
back and they relax and then,like it's usually it takes like
(38:27):
a couple of dark jokes to likereally like bring that like to
the forefront and it's beautifulbecause then they start making
like those connections with you.
And you know, I really thinkyou have to get to know clients
too at like that human level,like you know absolutely like
maintain the boundaries, but youstill have to get to know them
as a human.
They don't want to talk to arobot, they don't want to like
(38:49):
sit there, like well, I can'ttell you anything about myself
because you know boundaries, youthey don't want to talk to a
robot.
They don't want to like sitthere like well, I can't tell
you anything about myselfbecause you know boundaries, you
know they don't want that Like.
You know, if they're coming inand talking to you about all of
this stuff, you still need tolike be able to, you know,
disclose a few things withinreason, right, and just be a
person.
That that's the biggest thingthey, they absolutely don't want
to hear.
Well, how does that make youfeel?
Or you know, oh, what I hearyou telling me is blah, blah,
(39:12):
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
No, like there's ways torephrase stuff and you know,
talk, you know, like a humanopposed to just being like you
know the quote unquote liketherapist, so like I really kind
of strive to be that type ofperson and then it's not as
challenging.
I think for me, honestly, likethe biggest challenge is to not
(39:33):
fit so many EMDR sessions inlike the same day.
And I do it to myself like allthe time and tell myself I'm not
going to do that and then justkeep it up with all the
paperwork.
But I like I love thatdifficult population or you know
, quote unquote difficultpopulation.
I just kind of like breakingthrough some of that resistance
because I don't want to give upon them.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
They just they need to be able to feel comfortable
and open up erin also, you justhave a great way of I feel like
whenever we're talkingprofessionally and just
personally, the power dynamicI've, since day one I've met you
you, just you never make anyonefeel like they're in the other
seat, right, because that's socommon when first responders
come in right, because they'realready in the policy and then,
oh, whether, right, even if it'scourt mandate, whatever that
looks like, are they're beingfor it, right?
(40:15):
we have a lot of the chiefs.
Sometimes you know you need toget a treatment, or blah blah,
and they come in and it's like,okay, well, this is just another
dog, right, doctor,psychiatrist or whatever.
But you, yeah, just the way,that, right.
But maybe it's also the biggoods, I don't know.
Speaker 6 (40:29):
But also, too, sometimes when I open my mouth,
sometimes they don't realizethat they're talking to a
therapist.
Like, did she really just saythat?
Because I will call people outon their shit.
My favorite line is how's thatworking for you?
If I have to dig, dig, dig overand over what brings you in?
I'm getting these vague answersand I'm like, what brings you
(40:49):
in?
I'm getting, like these vagueanswers and I'm like what?
What are you doing?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
you know, or sometimes just even knowing, the
lingo is such a huge thing youknow, I've heard, I've had a
police officer tell me they wentto a therapist and say I went
to a call.
Oh, who called you?
Speaker 6 (41:05):
that's funny, or just like I said, knowing the
difference between dead and deaddead like that's funny.
Or just like I said, knowingthe difference between dead and
dead dead, like that's huge,like I, I've caught people off
guard because I knew what thethat difference was.
Or they come in and they're,you know, like they went to an
accident.
They're like, oh, I have somecool pictures.
I'm like oh yeah, like yeah,you want to see.
I'm like absolutely like, bringthem out, you know.
(41:28):
So, like that, it doesn'treally bother me.
I've always just found like Idon't know, just curiosity.
I found it interesting and wasoriginally kind of what I wanted
to do.
So, like that kind of stuffdoesn't get me is this why we're
?
Speaker 3 (41:42):
is this why we're all friends and we can't function
in society?
Speaker 6 (41:45):
probably, probably.
I mean, I think like to.
One of the other challengeswith it is, you know, I think
for these guys it's not so mucheven like the gruesome stuff,
it's more the, the emotions thatcome along with like live
people and I think that's liketheir grief and I think they
just don't know what to do withthat.
And I mean, as therapists wedon't always know what to do
(42:06):
with it, but they're seeing itlike it's in the forefront in
the moment and I think theimportant thing that they like
can't wrap their heads aroundand they're just like deer in
the headlights with it, like youjust got to let them have their
feelings.
There's nothing you're going todo or say in that moment to
really make them feel better, aslong as you're doing everything
(42:28):
you need to do and focus on thepractical stuff.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
And sometimes it's knowing to build the
relationship.
Sorry, richard, because I, youknow, I have people who I kept.
For a year and a half to twoyears we talked about hockey,
the weather, everything buttherapy, and then one day it's
the trauma dump and I was readyfor it.
But, you know, and he's likewow, you're really patient with
me.
I'm like listen, man, I knowhow this shit works.
(42:50):
You don't want to talk about it.
I'm not going to sit here andsay please talk about it, cause
I, you're not going to talkabout it.
So I think that what I explainedto people is that you need to
like knowing the challenge is,be patient.
Some people will tell you rightaway, and that's great.
I think, as a male with underbail, sometimes I'm not trying
to be sexist, but the truth ismales will be a little more
(43:11):
resistant and want to protectthemselves because they want to
know, like, if I'm vulnerable,is he going to make fun of me?
Is he going to fuck with me?
I shall.
Now I will fuck with themenough for the important stuff,
and that's kind of a very trickything that therapists don't
always understand, because yougot to be able to laugh about
stuff too right.
Speaker 6 (43:27):
You have to like just roll with the resistance.
And you know, even when Isupervise other clinicians, it's
like being patient you havelike I mean sometimes like it's
like I tell them, it's like yougotta wait, like wait it out,
build the rapport like you'regonna be going back and forth
like for a long time, but likeyou gotta build that trust.
Speaker 5 (43:46):
That's how you roll with the resistance there's a,
there's a big part to this where, um, something that we've all
talked about, where andespecially having done it myself
where, like, you don't realizethat you're doing it, when
you're a first responder, whereyou engage in emotional numbing
to protect yourself from thedamages you're being exposed to
(44:07):
on a day-to-day basis.
And I didn't think that that waswhere most of my like therapy
work was really going to focus,like when I started down this
pathway.
But so much of it is justhelping guys reconnect with that
emotions and learning how tobuild those good barriers
between, like, home life andwork life.
And being able to likereconnect with their loved ones
(44:29):
in a meaningful way where theyactually feel joy once again is
just such a rewarding aspect ofthis work.
Where it's like they don'trealize that they're not feeling
those emotions anymore.
They don't even get it untilthey finally like have that,
like you just said, thatepiphany moment, that trauma
dump moment where, like, all ofa sudden, they're done with that
(44:50):
, they're like that, they'relike that's a real emotion.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
I haven't had one of those in ages yeah, and I think
that the other part too is, whenyou think about that, those
emotions, is that you learn thatwhat's socially acceptable
anger and happy, sadness ain'tacceptable, surprise definitely
isn't acceptable.
And fear if you show fear, youare fucked.
And I think it's important torealize that, those core
(45:15):
emotions, getting them toembrace them in their personal
life, when they don't show it upin their work life and I always
tell them I'm like you don'twant to show it at work, I'll
respect that, I have no problemwith that, but you need to be
able to live them somewhere.
Be able to live them somewhereand that's really something
that's kind of important because, while I'm not opposed to
having an officer having a hardday or whatever of any kind, or
(45:35):
a firefighter, but sometimesbeing in the moment showing that
emotion, it's just like mecrying in session while
someone's talking to me.
It'd be a little inappropriate,so um, um, that's something.
Speaker 6 (45:45):
Well, I think that they are.
They are feeling the emotions're just ignoring them, and I
always hear well, I just don'twant to feel, I just want to be
numb.
But I'm like, but really, howis that working?
Because you're feeling thatwouldn't it just be easier to
just maybe focus on them forjust like a little bit, and then
you don't have to feel them asstrong the, the proverbial 10
(46:06):
pounds of shit in a five poundbag, if you ask me.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
But you know, jen, and Jen and Lisa, I mean, what
are your challenges?
What do you face with thoseguys that maybe is a little
different than the regularpopulation or, as they like to
call us, civilians?
Speaker 7 (46:21):
Probably one of the biggest things is their grief
being misread as anger, apathyand burnout.
I've had folks come in and justbe so exasperated by everyone
telling them you know, you'realways angry, You're always this
, you must be burnt out, youmust be this, and you know it
(46:45):
all comes back to oftentimesthat their grief isn't about the
loss of a person.
It's about the loss of control,identity, innocence, purpose,
safety, all of those kinds ofthings.
So I've noticed a lot aroundgrief and being really
(47:07):
misunderstood and grief is sucha complex thing.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
but all due respect to Kubler-Ross's model, which is
a great start off, it doesn'texplain all of it, for sure.
And again, respect to Elizabeth, rest your soul.
But I think there's a lot moreto grief than just five stages
and having an end goal, if youask me.
But, jen, what about you?
(47:30):
I want to hear more about yourdifficulties that you face.
Speaker 4 (47:34):
I think one of the hardest things to when I work
with people is that, the ideathat you have to embrace the
shit to be able to feel thepositive, like they go hand in
hand there, you know you have tobe able to walk through the
pile of manure to find the daisyon the other side of the manure
.
You have to kind of be inyourself and that and that's not
fun and it doesn't always feelgood.
(47:55):
I describe people as like thatwater dragon that runs across
the top of the water and ifyou're going through life like
that, sometimes you have to sitand kind of you know, tread
water, sit in it, be in it andfeel everything, all the yucky
stuff, so that you can have allthe amazing things.
I think that training helps.
(48:17):
They put their uniforms on,their training kicks in and they
go and they do what they haveto do and they are a bit numb to
it, but it's still stuck thereand when they take their
uniforms off it's still.
You still have to sift throughit and and put it somewhere.
Compartmentalized is issomething that you know we all
work to unfurl.
But I really think the hardestthing is people don't want to
(48:41):
deal with the yucky stuff.
They don't want to, they don'twant to burden other people and
they don't want to burden us,they don't want to burden their
family members.
So they kind of hold it insideand realizing that once you
start letting some of that outand let some of that go and sit
in the muck and the mire thatthere is.
There is positivity on theother side of it.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Don't tell them positivity, they're just going
to run away.
Speaker 3 (49:04):
Jen, you hit such a good point with that and I just
want to touch upon the familyaspect of that for a sec.
First talk about right, they'recarrying so much of the weight
on themselves, right, and thensometimes spouses or family
members will be like I'm so mad,right, my, my first responder,
my military person, spouse,whatever, um doesn't share,
right.
And then they tell us, well,I'm actually trying to protect
them from it, right, they'rejust carrying all that weight,
(49:25):
right.
It's not about anger, likedisconnect sometimes, it's just
they're also trying to protect.
But then who's going to protectthem?
Right?
Speaker 4 (49:31):
And I think we've had every single one of us has had
someone say to them I don'treally want to share this with
you because I don't like talkingabout it and I don't want to
put it on you as well.
Speaker 3 (49:41):
So there is like put it on us, this is what we're
here for, right, and no one hasever been able to do that for
them sometimes Right.
Speaker 6 (49:47):
But the other thing, too, is like for spouses like
Alexa.
I don't know about you, and thesame thing with Jen is that you
know, we hear that they went tosomething.
We have no idea what it is.
We have amazing imaginations.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Like yes.
Speaker 6 (50:00):
I mean I go straight to, like you know, like
something like crazy cinematiclike Chicago fire, yeah, like
that.
What I think is going on, withblood spurting out everywhere or
brain splatter on the wall.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
I can't right, right amazing imaginations yeah, we
know, right, when it's um thisis something else to talk about
terminology and just as a spouse.
But even in the clinical field,right, like if it's a child,
you know rescue, recovery, right.
Sometimes you know immediately,right, all these different
things and um.
But even I think, sometimes asa spouse or a family member or a
friend, sometimes our clinicalbrain gets put on the backside,
(50:32):
right.
Sometimes I would say like when, after I'm done work, sometimes
I become the client, becausethere's moments and days where
I'm like this is hard, right, orlike we get back into being
like a family member, a spouseor friend, to like I'm really
worried.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Right and I think that we we can put our training
aside.
I mean, like I said, I'm achild and family specialist.
Pretty, training aside.
I mean, like I said, I'm achild and family specialist
Pretty sure my daughters wouldhave a field day on this podcast
talking about how crappy of adad I am.
I know I do good overall, butthere's things in life you just
forget about your training.
You just become a human, whichreminds me that we got to be
human here and I got to beprecious about the time for
everyone.
(51:04):
Obviously, we got through twoquestions out of the 12 that I
received, so this is typicallywhat this group does is we're
good at talking.
We share.
Well, come back and even at onepoint I'd love to have
individual interviews with youguys, because that would be
great, give us more time andin-depth for everyone's story.
But we'll look in the beginningof the fall.
(51:24):
I know we're going to see eachother in a couple of weeks, but
I want to thank you all for yourtime and I appreciate it and
hopefully we'll talk soon.
And to everyone who's listening, episode 215 will be out in
about a week and go listen tothat and thank you for your time
.
Speaker 3 (51:38):
Thank you for having us Thank you for this group too.
Love you all.
Speaker 6 (51:42):
Good to see.
Everybody Appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (51:47):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(52:10):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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