July 30, 2025 • 40 mins
What happens when men are finally given permission to explore their full emotional range? In this eye-opening conversation that concludes episode 212 with Lee Povey, we delve into the hidden emotional landscapes that many men navigate alone, often without the tools or language to understand their experiences.
The discussion challenges fundamental misconceptions about emotions, particularly for men. "There is no negative emotion," Lee explains. "An emotion is just telling you about your experience." This perspective invites listeners to reconsider how we view feelings like anger, fear, or sadness – not as weaknesses to overcome, but as valuable information about our lived experiences.
We explore the fascinating paradox of modern masculinity: men are simultaneously criticized for expressing certain emotions while being told others are unacceptable. This creates an impossible situation where many men retreat behind emotional walls, protecting vulnerability with anger or detachment. The conversation delves into how evolutionary responses to perceived threats continue to shape male behavior in ways that no longer serve us in contemporary society.
The transformative power of men's groups emerges as a beacon of hope throughout our discussion. These spaces provide opportunities for men to be truly seen and understood, often for the first time. As Lee shares from his extensive experience facilitating these groups, "When men can come to a group and let go of that mask... it can be easier for them to connect." The simple recognition that one's struggles aren't unique can be profoundly healing.
Whether you're a man seeking better understanding of your emotional life, someone who loves a man struggling with connection, or simply curious about how emotional intelligence develops across genders, this conversation offers valuable insights. Connect with Lee at leepovey.com or find him on Instagram and LinkedIn to learn more about his work with men's groups and emotional intelligence.
Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi and welcome to Episode 215.
If you haven't listened toepisode 214, it's Behind the
Badge and Beyond group, Greatgroup of people.
It's the work we're doing herein Massachusetts, so go listen
to that.
But episode 215 will be withLee Povey again Great
conversation from episode 212.
It was so long and so good, wenever stopped, so we're going to
(01:02):
do a two-parter here.
So here's the other episode.
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Speaker 3 (02:34):
In some ways, younger people are being taught more
about their emotions and theiremotional experience, which is
awesome, because it's I like toteach is just data, and once
guys understand that, they'renot afraid of their emotions
anymore, like there's a.
There's a lot of fear for guysabout their emotions because
it's this thing I've been told Ishouldn't have, as you say, I
(02:55):
mean even joy and anger.
Don't be too happy as a bloke,like it's not attractive to be
too happy, and you got all thesetiktokers telling you you know
exactly how you should be as aman and how stoic you should be
and don't give away too much.
That's for women and oh my god.
And then for women it's don'tbe angry nothing worse than
being angry.
So women can't be assertive.
Assertive is on the anger uhspectrum.
(03:17):
Right, it's, that's not ladylikehealthy use of anger is to be
assertive, boundaries beingbroken.
I need to be clear about thishere.
And we have these weird toxicpositivity stuff about not
feeling negative emotions.
There is no negative emotion.
An emotion is just telling youabout your experience.
That's it.
And we might have negativeexperiences.
(03:40):
Right, you might lose a lovedone and feel sad, and that's a
negative experience from theemotion, but I actually I'm glad
I feel sad because the sadnesstells me that person was
important to me, so the sadnessitself isn't negative.
Losing the person might benegative.
So I think we just really needto allow ourselves to have a
(04:00):
much more human experience andthen the trick to that is okay
how do you learn from emotionsand how do you choose how you
want to be?
Instead, and because we don'tgive guys that opportunity to
learn, instead they become veryreactive.
So they react from angerwithout even realizing that
we're reacting from anger.
They react from sadness or fearwithout realizing.
We have so many men who areafraid and making choices based
(04:24):
on fear who have no idea thatthose choices are being made
from fear.
When we see men taking thingsaway from others or punishing
others, usually it's about fearof what's going to happen for
them and we need you know,society needs people to.
We mentioned at the beginningto have more empathy for each
(04:45):
other.
There is.
Simon Sinek talks a lot aboutthis and I love some of his work
around this infinite game.
Right, there's no winners andlosers in life.
It doesn't matter if you're abillionaire or you're a peasant.
You get to the end of it, youdie, that's it.
And what matters is what arethe moments of joy you have
along the way and what are theconnections you create, and,
(05:08):
especially for men, what do youfeel that you achieve?
And money isn't an achievement.
Money is just something right.
It doesn't buy you happiness.
It definitely doesn't buy youfulfillment.
So one area of clients I haveste is I have middle-aged men
that come to me because they'refeeling unfulfilled.
They're usually very successful.
We're talking seven figuresplus net worth and I'm not happy
(05:34):
.
Lee, the American dream told methat if I was wealthy and I had
a hot wife and a couple of kidsand a nice car and a nice house
, that's it, I've done it, I'dbe happy and I'm not happy.
And it's because they're nothaving impact.
That makes them proud of theirlegacy.
And then we work on.
Okay, what's the impact youwant to have?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And legacy is what?
Um?
I kind of remind people of theimportance um other things that
you mentioned.
The other part that I work hardwith in clients but also in my
group.
My first responders is when youthink about emotions, stop
thinking about the extreme ofthe emotions.
When I'm angry with someonedinging my car, which happened
(06:15):
recently, I'm angry.
Did I go out and beat theliving hell out of the guy or
fuck up someone or hit my kid orwhatever?
No, but I got angry, but myfirst instinct was to say
everyone okay.
And then after that I'm likeyou didn't look where you're
going.
I'm pretty pissed at you.
I didn't punch her, I didn'thurt her, but I did express how
(06:36):
I felt.
And I think the other part toothat I talk about is the
emotions don't have to beextreme.
When I cry, if I did cry today,I won't cry, for at best you're
going to cry 15 minutes.
By the way, yourparasympathetic nervous system
will not let you have an emotionmore than 15 minutes intensely.
Your body just shuts down.
So when I tell people about oh,I'll never stop crying,
(06:57):
actually you will, uh, your body, and usually it doesn't even
last that long.
It's usually like a few secondsto a you know, a few minutes and
I and well, I also talk aboutit with panic attacks, when
people like I had a 30 minutepanic attack and I'm like you
may have felt that way, but it'sjust not genetically possible
um, and learning to know thatall emotions don't have to be
(07:18):
extreme.
You know, um, having the fear.
Someone doesn't stop at a stopsign, they don't come close to
my car, but I had that moment offear and that was fear.
It's okay to have thoseemotions.
I think that what we do is wego to look at the extreme and
that's, oh, that's the emotion.
No, that's the extreme of theemotion.
There's a large variability.
You know, what I disagree withyou on this point of view is
(07:40):
could be based on anger, but Ididn't punch anyone, I didn't
disagree with someone inviolence, I just disagreed and
you talked about, you know, the,the, the length of the emotion
and the extremes of emotions.
And the length is, I agree,I've never had an emotion more
than five minutes and also theexpression of the emotion, like
I can be happy, and I'mcertainly happy today, even
(08:01):
though I'm not smiling thisexact moment but I also can't go
15 minutes.
Hi, I might go to YouTube tosee it.
Hi, because it just feels weird.
So I can't do that either.
So I think that that's why,like when we talk about emotions
and expressing it, especiallywith men, I think they've never
been educated in that way andthat's what I find individually
(08:23):
and in group.
When my first responder people,um, that it's okay to have those
emotions one of my guys almostwas ready to quit after he got
angry at someone, had to walkaway and expresses he was angry
somewhere else, he was alone.
He's like, oh my god, theyprobably caught that I'm gonna
lose.
Like, no, you had an emotion,they're not gonna fucking fire
you for this shit.
And you didn't do it in frontof the person?
(08:44):
Even better, you had an emotion.
They're not going to fuckingfire you for this shit.
And you didn't do it in frontof the person?
Even better, and the situationwas safe.
At the end of the day, it'slearning to be able to have
those emotions.
And sometimes, yeah, do I comehome and I yell in a pillow.
Sure, call me crazy, I don'tgive a crap.
But hey, I didn't hurt anyoneand it's okay to yell and I
moved on from that emotion.
But I don't know, that's kindof what I got from what you're
(09:05):
saying.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
A lot of men, and especially young men today, have
been told their anger is notwelcome, which is super
unhealthy, because it's OK to beangry about things, right, if
somebody's pushing your boundary, somebody's breaking an
agreement with you, somebody'slet you down, it's OK to be
angry about that.
And because we tell them theycan't be angry, then they have
(09:26):
this fear of if I ever am angry,it's rage, and anger is mild
irritation to rage, right, mildirritations.
You know 0.5 on the scale andrage is 11 on the you know the 0
to 10 scale and most of thetime we feel angry it's a two or
three.
We're not going to go killsomeone over a two or three.
It's just like you know what.
(09:47):
I'm pissed off with what youdid, and it's okay to express
that, and then say how would welike things to be different next
time?
And because we discouragepeople from feeling anger and
especially now, women tell menyour anger makes me feel unsafe.
Well then, how am I meant tocommunicate with you?
Because it's okay for me to beangry about some of your
behavior and we need to learn tobe able to express that anger,
(10:11):
as you say, without physicality,which most men can do.
It's very few men that actuallyneed to physically express
their anger.
But we've just kind of vilifiedanger to the point that we
can't use it for what it shouldbe used for, which is a
communication tool.
And then a lot of men are soscared of their fear and being
fearful and what it means aboutthem that they protect their
(10:34):
fear with anger.
So there's a lot of men walkingaround that are very afraid and
they protect it with anger.
You know, you see that inAmerica with this, you know
culture of like I've got 10 guns.
It's like what are you reallyafraid of then?
Why do you need this?
And it's the shield around youto protect you from the things
that you're afraid of.
And in modern society it's soeasy to be afraid because these
(10:57):
threats get amplified thataren't even really there,
because we read the news storythat's a one in a million
occurrence and we assume thatthat means that's going to
happen to us.
The world is safer right nowthan it's ever been in human
history, yet people are justafraid, as they've always been,
and that that fear doesn't matchour actual human experience and
(11:17):
it damages us.
It damages parents with kids,because they don't let kids go
and try things because they'reworried that they're going to
get hurt.
And then these kids don't learnany resilience, they don't
learn any self-control, theydon't learn any grit, they don't
learn where their limits are,which is all part of the human
experience.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
And I think I go back to a little bit of our
pre-interview questions and I'mgoing to keep it a little bit in
general for purposes of keepingit on the subject.
But it's the fear of others andwhat I mean by that is I grew
up as a Quebecer who spokeFrench and I live with a lot of
English people.
I had the biggest paper routefor an English paper in the
(11:57):
Montreal area at one point andthere was this fear of the
French and they would call me asthe French guy.
A big insult was a frog, andthen if you were English, the
French would call you asquarehead and it was all based
on fear of the others, becausewe never got to know each other
(12:18):
and when people would talk to melike it was a weird sense of
the English liked me because Ispoke English and I could talk
to the French, and the Frenchliked me because I spoke English
and I could talk to the French,and the French liked me because
I spoke English and I couldtalk to the English.
But as soon as I didn't agreewith them, then I was the square
hair of the frog, depending onwho wanted to insult me, and it
was because there was a fear ofblank.
And I tell people that fear isso much around the fear of
(12:40):
others, the fear of theEuropeans, fear of Middle East,
the fear of politics, the fearof another gender, like if a
woman's.
But just for the record, incase anyone ever doubted if I'm
a feminist, if a woman's moreempowered than me, you know what
it takes away from me Zero,zilch, nothing.
I don't care, it's good.
And this is way before I haddaughters that I thought that
(13:03):
way.
And now I have two daughters,believe me, I think that way.
At the end of the day, I thinkthat that fear of others is what
also does a lot of that fuel of.
Oh, I can't have fear.
And I tell people, like, becurious and you were talking
about curiosity earlier Learnhow to be with, quote others.
And so I think that you know wewere.
(13:24):
We joked around about theCommonwealth, but one of the
things I particularly enjoyabout the commons, whether it's
Canada and Britain or Australia.
We'll just pick on the liberalsand conservatives for a second.
They will deemously disagreeabout something.
We'll just pick on the liberalsand the conservatives for a
second.
They will deemously disagreeabout something, but they'll be
at the pub, having a beer after,and those two things exist, and
(13:47):
to me, that's where, once youget over the fear of others, it
makes such a world of difference.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yeah, like so much of our human experience, there's a
strong evolutionary tie forthis, because way, way, way back
in the day, you absolutelyshould be afraid of somebody
that didn't look like you orsound like you, because the
chances are they were going tocome and steal your food or
steal your women so that theycould procreate with them.
(14:14):
So that was a threat.
Now we live in a world wherethose threats just don't really
exist or are very, very minor.
But because our brain hasn'tcaught up, you know, the
evolution of our brain hasn'tcaught up with the lack of
threat.
These days we still see peoplethat don't look like us, that
don't speak like us, that don'tsound like us, have different
(14:34):
ideas to us as to be in thethreat and to be in dangerous,
when they're really really not.
And this is why we see, whenyou take people from more rural
areas and you put them intocities, they actually develop
more empathy because they arearound these people that are
different from them and lookdifferent and sound different
from them, and they realize thatthey have the same wants and
the same dreams and the samehopes as them, and it doesn't
(14:56):
matter what their religion is orwhether they're religious or
not.
What matters is they want theirkids to have a good life just
as much as you want your kids tohave a good life, right?
They want to be healthy justthe same as you want to be
healthy.
They want friends just the sameas you want friends.
They want fulfilling work justthe same as you do.
And once we are around peoplethat are different from us and
we realize that we're much, muchcloser than we think we are and
(15:17):
that social media leads us tobelieve, then they become less
threatening.
And I see this all the time inmy men's groups, where people
share things and you know, theremight be some initial reaction
to it, and then they realizethere's way more in common than
they thought.
And when we start with thepremise of let's find what we've
got in common rather than whatwe disagree on, we realize that
(15:38):
we agree on 80% of stuff and the20%, so what?
We can have fun talking aboutit, but because we agree on the
80%, it's much easier for us tofind this common ground that we
can connect on.
And it's just evolution, right,it's just biology makes us
afraid of things that are notwhat we used to, and we just
have to take a conscious step toget over that and go.
(15:58):
This is not something to beafraid of, and that is literally
the human experience.
This is not something to beafraid of, and if we can keep
saying that to ourselves, theexperience is much better and we
can have more empathy for eachother.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I go back to what you talked about cycling earlier or
any individual sport.
I think that it can go forgroup sports, but I want to
stick on individual.
Is a marathoner better than the100-meter sprinter?
Different skills, I don't knowwho's better or worse, but when
you're able to see that, becauseyou're in it, you're no longer
(16:31):
vilifying, you might pick oneach other, that's going to
happen.
That's fun, that's okay, butultimately you see the
difference and you're okay withthat.
Doing the velodrome.
You talked about speed cycling.
I call it speed cycling.
It might be a French directtranslation.
Yeah, yeah, it's vitesse,vitesse, and then you go to
(16:52):
right now being July, we're inTour de France going on.
Right now Is the Tour de Francebetter than velodrome?
Different skills it's okay, andyou accept the differences a
lot more when you see that theathletes have a different skill
set, not better or worsedifferent, and so people who are
into sports should see that themedley versus the backstroke
(17:14):
versus the whatever Again, to me, different skills doesn't mean
one's better than the other,although Phelps kind of proved
us all wrong.
But in general it's talkingabout how these differences are
so minor.
It's just a different skill.
And I think now, once peoplerealize that I find that
individual sports people reallysee that I don't work as many
(17:36):
sports athletes as you do I'm100% sure of that, but I do work
with some.
And they really see that Idon't work as many sports
athletes as you do I'm 100% sureof that, but I do work with
some and they really see that as, yes, they'll pick on the
marathon or, oh, you can't runfast or you're going to run slow
on the long distance, but it'sa joke, it's not meant to really
go after the person.
So I think that's reallyworking on these differences and
learning that this is one of myfavorite staying people who've
(17:57):
listened to my podcast will hearit again.
And for those who know meindividually, you know I say
this all the time 95% of copsfirefighters, emts, paramedics,
military, male, female, whoeveryou want to call a group they
just want to do their job, dotheir life and go home safely.
That's all they care about.
They don't care.
There's 5% of them fuckingdouchebags, fucking assholes.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Athletes in the NFL- which is exactly the same in
every single walk of life.
It might just be that, say, thepolice in America can cause
more harm because they have gunsand the douchebag in the office
doesn't have a gun, but stillthere is a percentage of society
5% to 10% that is moresociopathic, that has less
(18:40):
empathy and can cause harm andcertain careers that harm is
amplified by what they can do.
You know people in boardrooms,of course you know.
Let's talk about the.
You know the, the drugcompanies that knew that their
product was super addictive andhid it, or the cigarette
companies that knew that theirproduct caused cancer and hid it
.
It's exactly the same stuff,same level of sociopathy.
(19:05):
I wanted to come back to whatyou said about sports, steve,
because I I've lived this, so um, I used to train, um, when I
was first doing the cyclingcoach, and I trained with a
couple of my young athletes andwe had a strength and
conditioning coach who alsotrained triathletes complete
different end of the scale to us, right, for those that don't
know, track sprinters, some ofthe most powerful athletes on
(19:26):
the planet.
It's basically a weightlifterthat rides a bike.
None of our events last morethan a minute and most of it is
30 seconds and under it's justbang as much power as you can
produce, as quickly as you can.
Triathletes three differentsports, huge amount of endurance
and you know, even the sprinttriathlete lasts an hour and a
half and it's it's an enduranceevent and they're little humans
(19:48):
and they need to be lightbecause that's a benefit in
their event.
And we're in the gym and thesetriathletes are like on their
third training session or fourthtraining session of the day.
They've got up at four o'clockin the morning, whatever, to go
for a run, then they've gone tothe pool, then did a bike race,
then they're in a gym andtypically track athletes might
train twice a day.
At most we might do a gym andtrack session.
Typically it's once a day,maybe twice a day, and we would
(20:11):
be in awe of them.
Like, how the hell do you guysdo it?
Where do you get the energyfrom?
Like, how do you do it?
And then they're looking at uslifting four times as much
weight as they are and they'regoing how the hell do you do
that?
Like, how do you stand under400 pounds and squat?
So what I discovered was therewas usually just a a lot of, you
know camaraderie, because weall know how hard we were trying
(20:35):
.
Like they'd come in the gym.
They'd be like, oh you sprintas you're lazy.
Then I'd watch our weightworkout and they'd be like, holy
crap, how are you guys doingthat?
Because their weight workoutwould be half the length of ours
with a quarter of the volume.
And you know it's a maintenanceweight workout where we're
smashing the hell out of eachother.
We're lying on the floor inbetween efforts, barely able to
function.
So when you get elite athletestogether and they watch each
(20:58):
other train, often there's thishuge respect for what the other
is capable of doing.
I look at tour de francecyclists and I'm like I just
don't know how they do that.
I think that is the hardestthing that human beings are
capable of doing 21 days of fivehours plus a day of the most
intense exercise possible.
(21:19):
Yet those guys would come andwatch me train in the velotrome
and go how the hell do you gothat fast?
Like they're just like how areyou doing it?
Or they come to the gym and I'mlike, right, let's do squats
and let's do five sets of 10 onsquats and like what is wrong
with you?
This is horrible.
So I think high performers canalways look at another high
performer and have a lot ofcamaraderie and a lot of respect
(21:39):
and I see that across the thing.
You know, in high levelbusiness it's the same thing.
We have respect for otherpeople that are working at that
level of intensity and I thinkthat's you.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
You talk about the other part, about men's group or
any type of group is to haverespect.
Yeah, yeah, to me, you knowit's the saying if you haven't
walked a mile in my shoes, don'tjudge me.
And sometimes that's what Ikind of remind people, even in
group.
It's like before you react towhatever the person said,
remember, did you walk a mile intheir shoes?
(22:10):
And worst case scenario, if youdon't know how to say anything,
nice, you're a mile away, sowho cares.
But at the end of the day, Ithink that that's the other part
too is I don't know what it isto live in south of the south of
london, near the englishchannel.
I don't know what that is.
I've been there but I don'tknow what it is and I'm not
(22:31):
going to pretend.
You don't know what it is togrow up as a quebecer in canada,
and you're not going to pretend.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
I'm glad, because that sounds way too cold.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, well, that's the English for you.
But anyway, there's a reasonwhy I live in Southern
California now, Steve.
Oh, I thought it was just theenvironment.
You're talking about the actualclimate.
Okay, all joking aside, it'ssitting there and being curious,
and someone who sits there andlearns about curiosity how the
hell do you do that is acuriosity statement.
(23:02):
And to me, once you want tokeep your humanity in general
and that's what I bring intomen's groups is to also talk
about be able to like.
How the hell did you do that?
How do you like to me, workingout?
I'm not in great shape.
I haven't worked out regularlyin a while, but I'm like a three
sets of 15 type of guy.
(23:24):
I used to run half marathons.
I was lazy, I just did halves.
That's kind of what I like todo.
But when I see someone likesitting there with like three,
50 and they go, all right, thisis my warmup before my six, six
and I'm like I can't even lift a350.
What are you talking about?
So?
And I think that, to me, onceyou see, that respect and it's
not a I think that's the otherpart too is it's not a
(23:47):
competition, it's differentskill set and I think that's the
other part too, that I kind ofremind a whole lot of people and
when you're in a group settingthat's a lot easier to convey
and be listened to than whenyou're in individual situations.
But that's why I wanted tobring it back to the group stuff
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
I think the world just needs a lot more love and a
lot more empathy, and it's inus, it's it's factions, it's
tribes that get in the way silosis a word that you use, and
it's comfortable to be aroundpeople that are like us, it's
comfortable to look for peoplethat look like us.
Yeah, when we broaden that andwhen we have these experiences
(24:29):
that broaden that for us by, youknow, living around a variety
of people or joining a men'sgroup with a bunch of different
guys, we realize that we're notas far away as we thought we
were.
And something I love doing inmen's groups is a guy will share
something, and I'll pause themfor a second.
I'll say who else feels likethis and the amount of times
that the majority of the groupwill be like.
Yeah, I feel like that too, andyou see this relief on the face
of the person who's sharing,who goes oh, I'm not alone, I'm
(24:51):
not the freak who feels likethis or is experiencing this.
And then you see the connectionwith the other guys of like,
looking around, going, I'm notalone either.
And we all feel like this and Ijust think there's so much,
there's so much power in gettingpeople together and sharing
those experiences and feelinglike we want to be there and
support each other.
(25:12):
And, in my experience, men areincredibly loving when given the
chance.
And I think we spoke about itoff air and I think it's time to
touch on it now, which is howdo you get men to these groups,
how do we get men to step intothese spaces?
And, uh, you know what did itfor me and it took time.
I was a young man in uk.
(25:32):
We're not known for going totherapy that.
That wasn't what young men inuk did 30 years ago when I was
in my 20s, and it took a bit oftime and it took a lot of love
from guys who just kept sayingcome, do this thing, it's gonna
shock you, it's gonna surpriseyou.
I went to a men's group.
I sat down in circle with abunch of other guys and they
(25:53):
shared their stuff and by theend of them sharing, I'm like,
oh, I gotta do this, I've got tobe in, like that's it and
that's what I find.
You know, if we can get guysthere to experience it, they
experience something thatthey're not expecting.
They experience a level ofconnection and camaraderie and
especially being seen, and I getit like guys are scared of
(26:13):
being seen.
You know it's, it's, it's,there's some, there's some
protection in not being seen.
Because you judge yourself veryharshly and you're wondered how
worried, how others will judgeyou.
But when you get seen in thisspace and these guys aren't
judging you and telling you thatyou're a prick or that you're
useless or that you're a failureor you should be better or
you're ugly or whatever theinternal voices that you tell
(26:35):
yourself, when they just hearyou and go I hear you, brother
suddenly you know that this issomething that you just want
more and more of.
And the men in my group veryrarely leave, you know, once
they've started, the group takesabout four or five weeks and
then they're like, oh god, thisis it, I'm in, and they stay for
years and years and years andum, I just want to provide
(26:56):
opportunities for men to feelthat love from other men.
And I remember when I first gottugged at, this therapist said
to me something along the linesof like, there's nothing like
experiencing the love of otherguys and it's different from the
love for women.
I was like, yeah, whatever,fucking queer, you know, that
was my stupid childhood boy liketeasing response.
(27:18):
And then you know, I was thereand I had that experience.
I'm like, oh god, he's so right.
He's so right, like what was?
What was my weak ego trying toprotect me from like?
This is just such a wonderfulexperience to be seen by other
men and to be emotionally heldby other guys and I'm so glad
that he was patient and heignored my bullshit and he just
(27:41):
kept inviting me until I wasready to step in, and when I did
, I've never looked back.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Well, I think this is a good step up point to talk
about one more thing before wego, because you just talked
about men's group.
We talked about men's group.
Sometimes women join my group.
Sometimes they're comfortable,sometimes they're not.
It ends up being mostly a men'sgroup.
This group off and on for sevenyears.
(28:14):
I would say 80% of the timeit's a men's group and, yes,
sometimes women join.
What's the value of doing menwith men versus having women
there?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah.
So I run both mixed groups andgender-oriented groups.
I run mixed groups in abusiness setting, so I run
executive groups and whoever'son the executive team, we're all
in it together.
And then I run men's groups andI think the advantage to men
only groups is there's a placewhere they're not trying to show
(28:40):
off to women and it's not quitethe same in the executive
groups because it's like, okay,we've got this aim here, that
we're trying to do this for thebusiness and there can still be
some of that male bravado there.
And also for women, right?
Women behave differently aroundmen and women when they're in
groups with other women can letgo of some of that mask or some
of that expectation of how menwant them to behave.
(29:01):
So I think men get to let go ofthe how should I behave in
front of women to still lookattractive?
And that's a very subconsciousthing.
It's not like they'reconsciously going I would like
to be attractive.
There's a subconscious thingthere to it and we see that in
gyms.
Like guys in gyms it's just amale gyms as opposed to guys in
gym where the women there.
They behave differently andit's observable.
(29:23):
So I think it's thisopportunity for men to take the
mask off.
I've got a friend who runs amen's group called Men Without
Masks and I think that's areally astute group name.
Like you want men to come andtake that mask off and to let go
of trying to appeal to people,and especially women, because
that's a very powerful motivator.
(29:44):
It's a core genetic motivator.
I want to procreate, right, Iwant to procreate.
What does that mean?
I'm driven to have sex.
I'm driven to get the oppositesex to like me.
Yeah, and I think when men cancome to a group and you know,
even gay men coming to a grouptypically don't have that kind
of response, right, they're nottrying to show off to the men in
the same way.
But when men are trying to showoff to women, it can get in the
(30:07):
way of them connecting and itcan get combative and then
they're trying to be like thetop dog in a group.
And when they come to a groupand it's a group of men, it's
easier for them to let go ofthat kind of stuff.
And then I still think there'sa place for you should go to
groups with women as well andhave that experience where
you've let the mask go and nowwhat can you show up like in a
mixed group?
(30:27):
I just find there's a lot ofpower in coming to this group
and having this special spacewhere you get to really share
without that mask that you mighthave outside.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I've seen that too.
You're right about thecompetition.
It comes to mind thinking aboutAA and not putting down AA for
the record, just mentioning it,and I think that's a great
explanation for people tounderstand.
I do see the value of both, butI think it takes a certain
level of maturity and that maytake time.
So that's why sometimes I'mlike maybe it's just a maturity
(31:01):
thing and not calling men orwomen immature.
That is not what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
I'm just saying it takes that maturity to get there
, I'm going to, I'm going tocall men immature and, um, I'm
gonna, I'm gonna call menimmature.
And there's lots of immaturemen.
How dare you, I know.
And I think society does a badjob of meeting them, because
what we typically do is we callthem toxic and we call their
behaviors toxic.
And when you call somebodytoxic, you're saying you're
(31:26):
broken, right, you're there's,you're bad.
And what we really want to sayis you are immature and you're
displaying immature behaviorsand we want to invite you into
mature masculinity.
You know, when I think about somuch of what we see on the
internet, it's immaturemasculinity that's glorified as
healthy masculinity.
(31:46):
It's boys acting out.
You know, boyhood hero stuff,the hero's journey, instead of
what does it mean to be a man?
What does it mean to, like youright, have daughters and raise
daughters to be strong,successful, loving women, and
you've got to let go of all theboyhood bullshit to be able to
do that.
So I I think of part of thegroups right rite of passage and
(32:11):
we step aside.
There were women in a youngman's life where they did, you
know, I'm trying to think whatthe Aborigines call it in
Australia, like the somethingwalk, where they go off and have
to survive in nature for like aweek or something and you have
this rite of passage thatsignifies I'm leaving boyhood
(32:33):
behind and becoming a man.
And now we celebrate boyhood, wecelebrate the collection of
toys.
I mean, literally, we havemiddle aged men who just want to
outdo each other with the sizeof their yachts and their toys.
It's like come on, guys, and itdoesn't bring you any joy.
Like Daniel Kahneman, fantasticpsychologist, had done a ton of
(32:53):
work on this and he sadly diedfairly recently.
It's a great loss and what heshowed is the accumulation of
things brings you no more joy.
You get it, you get a moment ofjoy, forgetting it, and then
your happiness level does notincrease and in fact, sometimes
it goes down.
So what actually matters forhuman beings, men and women, is
connection and a sense offulfillment and a sense of
(33:14):
purpose, especially for men,purpose.
You know, women can drive a lotof purpose from from child care
and from bringing up children,and men drive less purpose and I
can still drive a lot ofpurpose from it, but they tend
to drive less purpose from thatand they need to do something to
be of use and as society we'vedownvalued that do something to
(33:34):
be of use right, and a society.
We've downvalued that like menlike using their hands or at
least certain section of menlike using their hands and we
have downvalued trades people inamerica.
It's like if you don't go touniversity, you're useless.
I didn't go to university.
Nobody ever asked me hey, lee,what's your education level?
Did you go to university?
Everybody I work with has adegree.
Everybody I work with as an mpa, everybody I work with is
(33:56):
incredibly smart.
That's what they do.
That wasn't my pathway.
That wasn't what worked for me,because the education system
didn't understand somebody likeme.
The message I got at school wasyou're incredibly smart and
you're lazy not lazy, I justcouldn't learn in their model,
so they judged that as beinglazy instead of oh, how do we
help you learn?
So, yeah, I think we we justneed more kindness in the world
(34:20):
and we need more empathy in theworld and we need more
opportunity to lovingly holdpeople accountable instead of,
you know, calling them broke andcalling them toxic and saying
hey.
Instead of calling them brokeand calling them toxic and
saying, hey, let's let go ofthat boyhood way of being and
instead let's step into what'sit like to be a man and to
actually feel connection andfulfillment, rather than here's
(34:41):
my big atti and here's myexpensive scotch and here's me
smoking a cigar.
And there's place for that.
Don't get me wrong, I racego-karts.
There's a helmet back there.
I like speed.
Speed has been a huge part ofmy life, right, and I know that
connection is really what makesme feel loved, and one of the
best things about my go-kartracing is hanging out with the
guys that I go-kart race like.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
That's just as important as the go-kart racing
and the performance itself well,I think this is all good stuff
and I agree with you.
As my therapist taught me along time ago, a couple of years
ago, it's not it's not aboutgoing to pickleball and being
the best pickleball champ.
It's about connecting with otherpeople they're men and women,
(35:25):
usually men and having that goodtime going, going to play
basketball, going to play anysport.
It's about that camaraderiethat makes you feel connected as
a human being.
And talking about empathy, Ithink connection is the next
best thing and I want to mentionthat because you were talking
about it and I think it's soimportant and that's why men's
(35:45):
group work.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
But I want to finish on this.
We're designed to be connected,Steve.
That's who we are.
It's in our genetic andpsychological makeup.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
And that's why no one makes it out of here alive, and
certainly no one makes it ontheir own, which is the other
part that I kind of remindpeople.
I'm going to do this on my ownnow, but, ok, continue thinking
that way.
But I want you to tell me alittle bit more about your men's
groups, what you do for youknow and what, where people can
reach you, cause I think thatmight be important for a whole
lot of people.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah, I like to be simple, steve, so you can find
me at Lee Povey everywhereleepoveycom leepovey on
Instagram, linkedin and Facebook, and I'm most active on
LinkedIn and Instagram.
I want to be of service.
I want to be of service to men.
(36:38):
I want to keep creating biggerand bigger platforms for men to
get together, to share, tosupport each other.
I think there is a hugeloneliness.
I don't think there is a hugeloneliness epidemic.
Right now.
Suicide rates are skyrocketingfor middle-aged men where their
family is broken up, they getdivorced, their kids are off
doing their own thing andthey're lonely because men are
worse at creating friends andmaintaining friendships than
women are, and that's one of theroles that my men's group, you
know, fulfills is creating thatconnection and that friendship
(37:01):
group.
That's something that comes outof there and, um, yeah, just
come and talk to me.
It doesn't matter whetheryou're going to join my groups
or not.
If you're a man, you want somehelp, some advice, come and talk
to me.
If you're a founder, you're abusiness owner and you are
getting in your own way, you'remy ideal client, right?
You've got to that point whereyour intelligence is holding the
(37:21):
business back because you cando everything better than
everybody else, but you need toscale.
Come and chat to me.
I'll help you with that.
I am very mission driven.
I want to amplify my impact bythe impact I have on others.
So you know, I look at thesemen's groups and if the guys
become better men because of themen's group, they'll go and
affect other men and theirchildren and their partners in
(37:43):
their community, and that is theway to make change happen.
And one last little aside whenmyself and the endurance coach
created the olympic developmentprogram for usa cycling, the
first thing we put down wascreate better humans.
The second thing we put downwas create olympic champions.
And to come back to your thingabout sport, when I crashed and
(38:05):
had to rebuild myself, a bigshift for me was I have to enjoy
the training, I have to enjoythe racing, and it can't just be
about the winning.
Before that was about thewinning.
Now, and I'm intenselycompetitive.
You won't meet somebody morecompetitive for me, I promise
you.
However, now the onlycompetition is with myself.
I want to be the best versionof myself, and that actually
allows me to be much betterconnected to the other people
(38:27):
that I do sport with, becausethey're not my rivals.
Now the only person I'mcompeting with is me, and I can
have those friendships.
It doesn't matter whether theywin or I win, as long as I feel
like I'm pushing forwards andbeing a better version of myself
.
And guess what?
I won more stuff after adoptingthat attitude than before it,
when it was all about winning.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
I hope that one of my particular clients where I have
that conversation with them allthe time, the best competition
in the world is with yourself.
Yeah, and once you get thereand show you what matters, yeah,
I mean that's kind of what, andhopefully she or he is
listening.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
But thank you so much .
Speaker 2 (39:04):
I'm happy that we're going to make two episodes out
of this.
I'm happy for everything youshared and it's nice to have.
We never met until today and Iam so happy we met and I
sincerely hope we stay incontact because I truly, truly
enjoyed our conversation.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Well, that completes episode 215.
Thank you so much, lee Povey,and go find him on his website,
great guy, and I will see you inthe next episode.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(39:58):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi and welcome to Episode 215.
If you haven't listened toepisode 214, it's Behind the
Badge and Beyond group, Greatgroup of people.
It's the work we're doing herein Massachusetts, so go listen
to that.
But episode 215 will be withLee Povey again Great
conversation from episode 212.
It was so long and so good, wenever stopped, so we're going to
(01:02):
do a two-parter here.
So here's the other episode.
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energy.
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And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
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If you do listen to this andyou want to use freeai, put in
the code Steve50 in the promocode area Steve50, and you will
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(02:09):
Get freed from writing yournotes, Get freed from even
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Use that to your advantage.
Freeai, a great service.
Go to getfreeai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney, and I highly encourage
you to do so and and I thinkit's getting better.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
In some ways, younger people are being taught more
about their emotions and theiremotional experience, which is
awesome, because it's I like toteach is just data, and once
guys understand that, they'renot afraid of their emotions
anymore, like there's a.
There's a lot of fear for guysabout their emotions because
it's this thing I've been told Ishouldn't have, as you say, I
(02:55):
mean even joy and anger.
Don't be too happy as a bloke,like it's not attractive to be
too happy, and you got all thesetiktokers telling you you know
exactly how you should be as aman and how stoic you should be
and don't give away too much.
That's for women and oh my god.
And then for women it's don'tbe angry nothing worse than
being angry.
So women can't be assertive.
Assertive is on the anger uhspectrum.
(03:17):
Right, it's, that's not ladylikehealthy use of anger is to be
assertive, boundaries beingbroken.
I need to be clear about thishere.
And we have these weird toxicpositivity stuff about not
feeling negative emotions.
There is no negative emotion.
An emotion is just telling youabout your experience.
That's it.
And we might have negativeexperiences.
(03:40):
Right, you might lose a lovedone and feel sad, and that's a
negative experience from theemotion, but I actually I'm glad
I feel sad because the sadnesstells me that person was
important to me, so the sadnessitself isn't negative.
Losing the person might benegative.
So I think we just really needto allow ourselves to have a
(04:00):
much more human experience andthen the trick to that is okay
how do you learn from emotionsand how do you choose how you
want to be?
Instead, and because we don'tgive guys that opportunity to
learn, instead they become veryreactive.
So they react from angerwithout even realizing that
we're reacting from anger.
They react from sadness or fearwithout realizing.
We have so many men who areafraid and making choices based
(04:24):
on fear who have no idea thatthose choices are being made
from fear.
When we see men taking thingsaway from others or punishing
others, usually it's about fearof what's going to happen for
them and we need you know,society needs people to.
We mentioned at the beginningto have more empathy for each
(04:45):
other.
There is.
Simon Sinek talks a lot aboutthis and I love some of his work
around this infinite game.
Right, there's no winners andlosers in life.
It doesn't matter if you're abillionaire or you're a peasant.
You get to the end of it, youdie, that's it.
And what matters is what arethe moments of joy you have
along the way and what are theconnections you create, and,
(05:08):
especially for men, what do youfeel that you achieve?
And money isn't an achievement.
Money is just something right.
It doesn't buy you happiness.
It definitely doesn't buy youfulfillment.
So one area of clients I haveste is I have middle-aged men
that come to me because they'refeeling unfulfilled.
They're usually very successful.
We're talking seven figuresplus net worth and I'm not happy
(05:34):
.
Lee, the American dream told methat if I was wealthy and I had
a hot wife and a couple of kidsand a nice car and a nice house
, that's it, I've done it, I'dbe happy and I'm not happy.
And it's because they're nothaving impact.
That makes them proud of theirlegacy.
And then we work on.
Okay, what's the impact youwant to have?
Speaker 2 (05:53):
And legacy is what?
Um?
I kind of remind people of theimportance um other things that
you mentioned.
The other part that I work hardwith in clients but also in my
group.
My first responders is when youthink about emotions, stop
thinking about the extreme ofthe emotions.
When I'm angry with someonedinging my car, which happened
(06:15):
recently, I'm angry.
Did I go out and beat theliving hell out of the guy or
fuck up someone or hit my kid orwhatever?
No, but I got angry, but myfirst instinct was to say
everyone okay.
And then after that I'm likeyou didn't look where you're
going.
I'm pretty pissed at you.
I didn't punch her, I didn'thurt her, but I did express how
(06:36):
I felt.
And I think the other part toothat I talk about is the
emotions don't have to beextreme.
When I cry, if I did cry today,I won't cry, for at best you're
going to cry 15 minutes.
By the way, yourparasympathetic nervous system
will not let you have an emotionmore than 15 minutes intensely.
Your body just shuts down.
So when I tell people about oh,I'll never stop crying,
(06:57):
actually you will, uh, your body, and usually it doesn't even
last that long.
It's usually like a few secondsto a you know, a few minutes and
I and well, I also talk aboutit with panic attacks, when
people like I had a 30 minutepanic attack and I'm like you
may have felt that way, but it'sjust not genetically possible
um, and learning to know thatall emotions don't have to be
(07:18):
extreme.
You know, um, having the fear.
Someone doesn't stop at a stopsign, they don't come close to
my car, but I had that moment offear and that was fear.
It's okay to have thoseemotions.
I think that what we do is wego to look at the extreme and
that's, oh, that's the emotion.
No, that's the extreme of theemotion.
There's a large variability.
You know, what I disagree withyou on this point of view is
(07:40):
could be based on anger, but Ididn't punch anyone, I didn't
disagree with someone inviolence, I just disagreed and
you talked about, you know, the,the, the length of the emotion
and the extremes of emotions.
And the length is, I agree,I've never had an emotion more
than five minutes and also theexpression of the emotion, like
I can be happy, and I'mcertainly happy today, even
(08:01):
though I'm not smiling thisexact moment but I also can't go
15 minutes.
Hi, I might go to YouTube tosee it.
Hi, because it just feels weird.
So I can't do that either.
So I think that that's why,like when we talk about emotions
and expressing it, especiallywith men, I think they've never
been educated in that way andthat's what I find individually
(08:23):
and in group.
When my first responder people,um, that it's okay to have those
emotions one of my guys almostwas ready to quit after he got
angry at someone, had to walkaway and expresses he was angry
somewhere else, he was alone.
He's like, oh my god, theyprobably caught that I'm gonna
lose.
Like, no, you had an emotion,they're not gonna fucking fire
you for this shit.
And you didn't do it in frontof the person?
(08:44):
Even better, you had an emotion.
They're not going to fuckingfire you for this shit.
And you didn't do it in frontof the person?
Even better, and the situationwas safe.
At the end of the day, it'slearning to be able to have
those emotions.
And sometimes, yeah, do I comehome and I yell in a pillow.
Sure, call me crazy, I don'tgive a crap.
But hey, I didn't hurt anyoneand it's okay to yell and I
moved on from that emotion.
But I don't know, that's kindof what I got from what you're
(09:05):
saying.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
A lot of men, and especially young men today, have
been told their anger is notwelcome, which is super
unhealthy, because it's OK to beangry about things, right, if
somebody's pushing your boundary, somebody's breaking an
agreement with you, somebody'slet you down, it's OK to be
angry about that.
And because we tell them theycan't be angry, then they have
(09:26):
this fear of if I ever am angry,it's rage, and anger is mild
irritation to rage, right, mildirritations.
You know 0.5 on the scale andrage is 11 on the you know the 0
to 10 scale and most of thetime we feel angry it's a two or
three.
We're not going to go killsomeone over a two or three.
It's just like you know what.
(09:47):
I'm pissed off with what youdid, and it's okay to express
that, and then say how would welike things to be different next
time?
And because we discouragepeople from feeling anger and
especially now, women tell menyour anger makes me feel unsafe.
Well then, how am I meant tocommunicate with you?
Because it's okay for me to beangry about some of your
behavior and we need to learn tobe able to express that anger,
(10:11):
as you say, without physicality,which most men can do.
It's very few men that actuallyneed to physically express
their anger.
But we've just kind of vilifiedanger to the point that we
can't use it for what it shouldbe used for, which is a
communication tool.
And then a lot of men are soscared of their fear and being
fearful and what it means aboutthem that they protect their
(10:34):
fear with anger.
So there's a lot of men walkingaround that are very afraid and
they protect it with anger.
You know, you see that inAmerica with this, you know
culture of like I've got 10 guns.
It's like what are you reallyafraid of then?
Why do you need this?
And it's the shield around youto protect you from the things
that you're afraid of.
And in modern society it's soeasy to be afraid because these
(10:57):
threats get amplified thataren't even really there,
because we read the news storythat's a one in a million
occurrence and we assume thatthat means that's going to
happen to us.
The world is safer right nowthan it's ever been in human
history, yet people are justafraid, as they've always been,
and that that fear doesn't matchour actual human experience and
(11:17):
it damages us.
It damages parents with kids,because they don't let kids go
and try things because they'reworried that they're going to
get hurt.
And then these kids don't learnany resilience, they don't
learn any self-control, theydon't learn any grit, they don't
learn where their limits are,which is all part of the human
experience.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
And I think I go back to a little bit of our
pre-interview questions and I'mgoing to keep it a little bit in
general for purposes of keepingit on the subject.
But it's the fear of others andwhat I mean by that is I grew
up as a Quebecer who spokeFrench and I live with a lot of
English people.
I had the biggest paper routefor an English paper in the
(11:57):
Montreal area at one point andthere was this fear of the
French and they would call me asthe French guy.
A big insult was a frog, andthen if you were English, the
French would call you asquarehead and it was all based
on fear of the others, becausewe never got to know each other
(12:18):
and when people would talk to melike it was a weird sense of
the English liked me because Ispoke English and I could talk
to the French, and the Frenchliked me because I spoke English
and I could talk to the French,and the French liked me because
I spoke English and I couldtalk to the English.
But as soon as I didn't agreewith them, then I was the square
hair of the frog, depending onwho wanted to insult me, and it
was because there was a fear ofblank.
And I tell people that fear isso much around the fear of
(12:40):
others, the fear of theEuropeans, fear of Middle East,
the fear of politics, the fearof another gender, like if a
woman's.
But just for the record, incase anyone ever doubted if I'm
a feminist, if a woman's moreempowered than me, you know what
it takes away from me Zero,zilch, nothing.
I don't care, it's good.
And this is way before I haddaughters that I thought that
(13:03):
way.
And now I have two daughters,believe me, I think that way.
At the end of the day, I thinkthat that fear of others is what
also does a lot of that fuel of.
Oh, I can't have fear.
And I tell people, like, becurious and you were talking
about curiosity earlier Learnhow to be with, quote others.
And so I think that you know wewere.
(13:24):
We joked around about theCommonwealth, but one of the
things I particularly enjoyabout the commons, whether it's
Canada and Britain or Australia.
We'll just pick on the liberalsand conservatives for a second.
They will deemously disagreeabout something.
We'll just pick on the liberalsand the conservatives for a
second.
They will deemously disagreeabout something, but they'll be
at the pub, having a beer after,and those two things exist, and
(13:47):
to me, that's where, once youget over the fear of others, it
makes such a world of difference.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yeah, like so much of our human experience, there's a
strong evolutionary tie forthis, because way, way, way back
in the day, you absolutelyshould be afraid of somebody
that didn't look like you orsound like you, because the
chances are they were going tocome and steal your food or
steal your women so that theycould procreate with them.
(14:14):
So that was a threat.
Now we live in a world wherethose threats just don't really
exist or are very, very minor.
But because our brain hasn'tcaught up, you know, the
evolution of our brain hasn'tcaught up with the lack of
threat.
These days we still see peoplethat don't look like us, that
don't speak like us, that don'tsound like us, have different
(14:34):
ideas to us as to be in thethreat and to be in dangerous,
when they're really really not.
And this is why we see, whenyou take people from more rural
areas and you put them intocities, they actually develop
more empathy because they arearound these people that are
different from them and lookdifferent and sound different
from them, and they realize thatthey have the same wants and
the same dreams and the samehopes as them, and it doesn't
(14:56):
matter what their religion is orwhether they're religious or
not.
What matters is they want theirkids to have a good life just
as much as you want your kids tohave a good life, right?
They want to be healthy justthe same as you want to be
healthy.
They want friends just the sameas you want friends.
They want fulfilling work justthe same as you do.
And once we are around peoplethat are different from us and
we realize that we're much, muchcloser than we think we are and
(15:17):
that social media leads us tobelieve, then they become less
threatening.
And I see this all the time inmy men's groups, where people
share things and you know, theremight be some initial reaction
to it, and then they realizethere's way more in common than
they thought.
And when we start with thepremise of let's find what we've
got in common rather than whatwe disagree on, we realize that
(15:38):
we agree on 80% of stuff and the20%, so what?
We can have fun talking aboutit, but because we agree on the
80%, it's much easier for us tofind this common ground that we
can connect on.
And it's just evolution, right,it's just biology makes us
afraid of things that are notwhat we used to, and we just
have to take a conscious step toget over that and go.
(15:58):
This is not something to beafraid of, and that is literally
the human experience.
This is not something to beafraid of, and if we can keep
saying that to ourselves, theexperience is much better and we
can have more empathy for eachother.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I go back to what you talked about cycling earlier or
any individual sport.
I think that it can go forgroup sports, but I want to
stick on individual.
Is a marathoner better than the100-meter sprinter?
Different skills, I don't knowwho's better or worse, but when
you're able to see that, becauseyou're in it, you're no longer
(16:31):
vilifying, you might pick oneach other, that's going to
happen.
That's fun, that's okay, butultimately you see the
difference and you're okay withthat.
Doing the velodrome.
You talked about speed cycling.
I call it speed cycling.
It might be a French directtranslation.
Yeah, yeah, it's vitesse,vitesse, and then you go to
(16:52):
right now being July, we're inTour de France going on.
Right now Is the Tour de Francebetter than velodrome?
Different skills it's okay, andyou accept the differences a
lot more when you see that theathletes have a different skill
set, not better or worsedifferent, and so people who are
into sports should see that themedley versus the backstroke
(17:14):
versus the whatever Again, to me, different skills doesn't mean
one's better than the other,although Phelps kind of proved
us all wrong.
But in general it's talkingabout how these differences are
so minor.
It's just a different skill.
And I think now, once peoplerealize that I find that
individual sports people reallysee that I don't work as many
(17:36):
sports athletes as you do I'm100% sure of that, but I do work
with some.
And they really see that Idon't work as many sports
athletes as you do I'm 100% sureof that, but I do work with
some and they really see that as, yes, they'll pick on the
marathon or, oh, you can't runfast or you're going to run slow
on the long distance, but it'sa joke, it's not meant to really
go after the person.
So I think that's reallyworking on these differences and
learning that this is one of myfavorite staying people who've
(17:57):
listened to my podcast will hearit again.
And for those who know meindividually, you know I say
this all the time 95% of copsfirefighters, emts, paramedics,
military, male, female, whoeveryou want to call a group they
just want to do their job, dotheir life and go home safely.
That's all they care about.
They don't care.
There's 5% of them fuckingdouchebags, fucking assholes.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
Athletes in the NFL- which is exactly the same in
every single walk of life.
It might just be that, say, thepolice in America can cause
more harm because they have gunsand the douchebag in the office
doesn't have a gun, but stillthere is a percentage of society
5% to 10% that is moresociopathic, that has less
(18:40):
empathy and can cause harm andcertain careers that harm is
amplified by what they can do.
You know people in boardrooms,of course you know.
Let's talk about the.
You know the, the drugcompanies that knew that their
product was super addictive andhid it, or the cigarette
companies that knew that theirproduct caused cancer and hid it
.
It's exactly the same stuff,same level of sociopathy.
(19:05):
I wanted to come back to whatyou said about sports, steve,
because I I've lived this, so um, I used to train, um, when I
was first doing the cyclingcoach, and I trained with a
couple of my young athletes andwe had a strength and
conditioning coach who alsotrained triathletes complete
different end of the scale to us, right, for those that don't
know, track sprinters, some ofthe most powerful athletes on
(19:26):
the planet.
It's basically a weightlifterthat rides a bike.
None of our events last morethan a minute and most of it is
30 seconds and under it's justbang as much power as you can
produce, as quickly as you can.
Triathletes three differentsports, huge amount of endurance
and you know, even the sprinttriathlete lasts an hour and a
half and it's it's an enduranceevent and they're little humans
(19:48):
and they need to be lightbecause that's a benefit in
their event.
And we're in the gym and thesetriathletes are like on their
third training session or fourthtraining session of the day.
They've got up at four o'clockin the morning, whatever, to go
for a run, then they've gone tothe pool, then did a bike race,
then they're in a gym andtypically track athletes might
train twice a day.
At most we might do a gym andtrack session.
Typically it's once a day,maybe twice a day, and we would
(20:11):
be in awe of them.
Like, how the hell do you guysdo it?
Where do you get the energyfrom?
Like, how do you do it?
And then they're looking at uslifting four times as much
weight as they are and they'regoing how the hell do you do
that?
Like, how do you stand under400 pounds and squat?
So what I discovered was therewas usually just a a lot of, you
know camaraderie, because weall know how hard we were trying
(20:35):
.
Like they'd come in the gym.
They'd be like, oh you sprintas you're lazy.
Then I'd watch our weightworkout and they'd be like, holy
crap, how are you guys doingthat?
Because their weight workoutwould be half the length of ours
with a quarter of the volume.
And you know it's a maintenanceweight workout where we're
smashing the hell out of eachother.
We're lying on the floor inbetween efforts, barely able to
function.
So when you get elite athletestogether and they watch each
(20:58):
other train, often there's thishuge respect for what the other
is capable of doing.
I look at tour de francecyclists and I'm like I just
don't know how they do that.
I think that is the hardestthing that human beings are
capable of doing 21 days of fivehours plus a day of the most
intense exercise possible.
(21:19):
Yet those guys would come andwatch me train in the velotrome
and go how the hell do you gothat fast?
Like they're just like how areyou doing it?
Or they come to the gym and I'mlike, right, let's do squats
and let's do five sets of 10 onsquats and like what is wrong
with you?
This is horrible.
So I think high performers canalways look at another high
performer and have a lot ofcamaraderie and a lot of respect
(21:39):
and I see that across the thing.
You know, in high levelbusiness it's the same thing.
We have respect for otherpeople that are working at that
level of intensity and I thinkthat's you.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
You talk about the other part, about men's group or
any type of group is to haverespect.
Yeah, yeah, to me, you knowit's the saying if you haven't
walked a mile in my shoes, don'tjudge me.
And sometimes that's what Ikind of remind people, even in
group.
It's like before you react towhatever the person said,
remember, did you walk a mile intheir shoes?
(22:10):
And worst case scenario, if youdon't know how to say anything,
nice, you're a mile away, sowho cares.
But at the end of the day, Ithink that that's the other part
too is I don't know what it isto live in south of the south of
london, near the englishchannel.
I don't know what that is.
I've been there but I don'tknow what it is and I'm not
(22:31):
going to pretend.
You don't know what it is togrow up as a quebecer in canada,
and you're not going to pretend.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
I'm glad, because that sounds way too cold.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, well, that's the English for you.
But anyway, there's a reasonwhy I live in Southern
California now, Steve.
Oh, I thought it was just theenvironment.
You're talking about the actualclimate.
Okay, all joking aside, it'ssitting there and being curious,
and someone who sits there andlearns about curiosity how the
hell do you do that is acuriosity statement.
(23:02):
And to me, once you want tokeep your humanity in general
and that's what I bring intomen's groups is to also talk
about be able to like.
How the hell did you do that?
How do you like to me, workingout?
I'm not in great shape.
I haven't worked out regularlyin a while, but I'm like a three
sets of 15 type of guy.
(23:24):
I used to run half marathons.
I was lazy, I just did halves.
That's kind of what I like todo.
But when I see someone likesitting there with like three,
50 and they go, all right, thisis my warmup before my six, six
and I'm like I can't even lift a350.
What are you talking about?
So?
And I think that, to me, onceyou see, that respect and it's
not a I think that's the otherpart too is it's not a
(23:47):
competition, it's differentskill set and I think that's the
other part too, that I kind ofremind a whole lot of people and
when you're in a group settingthat's a lot easier to convey
and be listened to than whenyou're in individual situations.
But that's why I wanted tobring it back to the group stuff
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
I think the world just needs a lot more love and a
lot more empathy, and it's inus, it's it's factions, it's
tribes that get in the way silosis a word that you use, and
it's comfortable to be aroundpeople that are like us, it's
comfortable to look for peoplethat look like us.
Yeah, when we broaden that andwhen we have these experiences
(24:29):
that broaden that for us by, youknow, living around a variety
of people or joining a men'sgroup with a bunch of different
guys, we realize that we're notas far away as we thought we
were.
And something I love doing inmen's groups is a guy will share
something, and I'll pause themfor a second.
I'll say who else feels likethis and the amount of times
that the majority of the groupwill be like.
Yeah, I feel like that too, andyou see this relief on the face
of the person who's sharing,who goes oh, I'm not alone, I'm
(24:51):
not the freak who feels likethis or is experiencing this.
And then you see the connectionwith the other guys of like,
looking around, going, I'm notalone either.
And we all feel like this and Ijust think there's so much,
there's so much power in gettingpeople together and sharing
those experiences and feelinglike we want to be there and
support each other.
(25:12):
And, in my experience, men areincredibly loving when given the
chance.
And I think we spoke about itoff air and I think it's time to
touch on it now, which is howdo you get men to these groups,
how do we get men to step intothese spaces?
And, uh, you know what did itfor me and it took time.
I was a young man in uk.
(25:32):
We're not known for going totherapy that.
That wasn't what young men inuk did 30 years ago when I was
in my 20s, and it took a bit oftime and it took a lot of love
from guys who just kept sayingcome, do this thing, it's gonna
shock you, it's gonna surpriseyou.
I went to a men's group.
I sat down in circle with abunch of other guys and they
(25:53):
shared their stuff and by theend of them sharing, I'm like,
oh, I gotta do this, I've got tobe in, like that's it and
that's what I find.
You know, if we can get guysthere to experience it, they
experience something thatthey're not expecting.
They experience a level ofconnection and camaraderie and
especially being seen, and I getit like guys are scared of
(26:13):
being seen.
You know it's, it's, it's,there's some, there's some
protection in not being seen.
Because you judge yourself veryharshly and you're wondered how
worried, how others will judgeyou.
But when you get seen in thisspace and these guys aren't
judging you and telling you thatyou're a prick or that you're
useless or that you're a failureor you should be better or
you're ugly or whatever theinternal voices that you tell
(26:35):
yourself, when they just hearyou and go I hear you, brother
suddenly you know that this issomething that you just want
more and more of.
And the men in my group veryrarely leave, you know, once
they've started, the group takesabout four or five weeks and
then they're like, oh god, thisis it, I'm in, and they stay for
years and years and years andum, I just want to provide
(26:56):
opportunities for men to feelthat love from other men.
And I remember when I first gottugged at, this therapist said
to me something along the linesof like, there's nothing like
experiencing the love of otherguys and it's different from the
love for women.
I was like, yeah, whatever,fucking queer, you know, that
was my stupid childhood boy liketeasing response.
(27:18):
And then you know, I was thereand I had that experience.
I'm like, oh god, he's so right.
He's so right, like what was?
What was my weak ego trying toprotect me from like?
This is just such a wonderfulexperience to be seen by other
men and to be emotionally heldby other guys and I'm so glad
that he was patient and heignored my bullshit and he just
(27:41):
kept inviting me until I wasready to step in, and when I did
, I've never looked back.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Well, I think this is a good step up point to talk
about one more thing before wego, because you just talked
about men's group.
We talked about men's group.
Sometimes women join my group.
Sometimes they're comfortable,sometimes they're not.
It ends up being mostly a men'sgroup.
This group off and on for sevenyears.
(28:14):
I would say 80% of the timeit's a men's group and, yes,
sometimes women join.
What's the value of doing menwith men versus having women
there?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah.
So I run both mixed groups andgender-oriented groups.
I run mixed groups in abusiness setting, so I run
executive groups and whoever'son the executive team, we're all
in it together.
And then I run men's groups andI think the advantage to men
only groups is there's a placewhere they're not trying to show
(28:40):
off to women and it's not quitethe same in the executive
groups because it's like, okay,we've got this aim here, that
we're trying to do this for thebusiness and there can still be
some of that male bravado there.
And also for women, right?
Women behave differently aroundmen and women when they're in
groups with other women can letgo of some of that mask or some
of that expectation of how menwant them to behave.
(29:01):
So I think men get to let go ofthe how should I behave in
front of women to still lookattractive?
And that's a very subconsciousthing.
It's not like they'reconsciously going I would like
to be attractive.
There's a subconscious thingthere to it and we see that in
gyms.
Like guys in gyms it's just amale gyms as opposed to guys in
gym where the women there.
They behave differently andit's observable.
(29:23):
So I think it's thisopportunity for men to take the
mask off.
I've got a friend who runs amen's group called Men Without
Masks and I think that's areally astute group name.
Like you want men to come andtake that mask off and to let go
of trying to appeal to people,and especially women, because
that's a very powerful motivator.
(29:44):
It's a core genetic motivator.
I want to procreate, right, Iwant to procreate.
What does that mean?
I'm driven to have sex.
I'm driven to get the oppositesex to like me.
Yeah, and I think when men cancome to a group and you know,
even gay men coming to a grouptypically don't have that kind
of response, right, they're nottrying to show off to the men in
the same way.
But when men are trying to showoff to women, it can get in the
(30:07):
way of them connecting and itcan get combative and then
they're trying to be like thetop dog in a group.
And when they come to a groupand it's a group of men, it's
easier for them to let go ofthat kind of stuff.
And then I still think there'sa place for you should go to
groups with women as well andhave that experience where
you've let the mask go and nowwhat can you show up like in a
mixed group?
(30:27):
I just find there's a lot ofpower in coming to this group
and having this special spacewhere you get to really share
without that mask that you mighthave outside.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
I've seen that too.
You're right about thecompetition.
It comes to mind thinking aboutAA and not putting down AA for
the record, just mentioning it,and I think that's a great
explanation for people tounderstand.
I do see the value of both, butI think it takes a certain
level of maturity and that maytake time.
So that's why sometimes I'mlike maybe it's just a maturity
(31:01):
thing and not calling men orwomen immature.
That is not what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
I'm just saying it takes that maturity to get there
, I'm going to, I'm going tocall men immature and, um, I'm
gonna, I'm gonna call menimmature.
And there's lots of immaturemen.
How dare you, I know.
And I think society does a badjob of meeting them, because
what we typically do is we callthem toxic and we call their
behaviors toxic.
And when you call somebodytoxic, you're saying you're
(31:26):
broken, right, you're there's,you're bad.
And what we really want to sayis you are immature and you're
displaying immature behaviorsand we want to invite you into
mature masculinity.
You know, when I think about somuch of what we see on the
internet, it's immaturemasculinity that's glorified as
healthy masculinity.
(31:46):
It's boys acting out.
You know, boyhood hero stuff,the hero's journey, instead of
what does it mean to be a man?
What does it mean to, like youright, have daughters and raise
daughters to be strong,successful, loving women, and
you've got to let go of all theboyhood bullshit to be able to
do that.
So I I think of part of thegroups right rite of passage and
(32:11):
we step aside.
There were women in a youngman's life where they did, you
know, I'm trying to think whatthe Aborigines call it in
Australia, like the somethingwalk, where they go off and have
to survive in nature for like aweek or something and you have
this rite of passage thatsignifies I'm leaving boyhood
(32:33):
behind and becoming a man.
And now we celebrate boyhood, wecelebrate the collection of
toys.
I mean, literally, we havemiddle aged men who just want to
outdo each other with the sizeof their yachts and their toys.
It's like come on, guys, and itdoesn't bring you any joy.
Like Daniel Kahneman, fantasticpsychologist, had done a ton of
(32:53):
work on this and he sadly diedfairly recently.
It's a great loss and what heshowed is the accumulation of
things brings you no more joy.
You get it, you get a moment ofjoy, forgetting it, and then
your happiness level does notincrease and in fact, sometimes
it goes down.
So what actually matters forhuman beings, men and women, is
connection and a sense offulfillment and a sense of
(33:14):
purpose, especially for men,purpose.
You know, women can drive a lotof purpose from from child care
and from bringing up children,and men drive less purpose and I
can still drive a lot ofpurpose from it, but they tend
to drive less purpose from thatand they need to do something to
be of use and as society we'vedownvalued that do something to
(33:34):
be of use right, and a society.
We've downvalued that like menlike using their hands or at
least certain section of menlike using their hands and we
have downvalued trades people inamerica.
It's like if you don't go touniversity, you're useless.
I didn't go to university.
Nobody ever asked me hey, lee,what's your education level?
Did you go to university?
Everybody I work with has adegree.
Everybody I work with as an mpa, everybody I work with is
(33:56):
incredibly smart.
That's what they do.
That wasn't my pathway.
That wasn't what worked for me,because the education system
didn't understand somebody likeme.
The message I got at school wasyou're incredibly smart and
you're lazy not lazy, I justcouldn't learn in their model,
so they judged that as beinglazy instead of oh, how do we
help you learn?
So, yeah, I think we we justneed more kindness in the world
(34:20):
and we need more empathy in theworld and we need more
opportunity to lovingly holdpeople accountable instead of,
you know, calling them broke andcalling them toxic and saying
hey.
Instead of calling them brokeand calling them toxic and
saying, hey, let's let go ofthat boyhood way of being and
instead let's step into what'sit like to be a man and to
actually feel connection andfulfillment, rather than here's
(34:41):
my big atti and here's myexpensive scotch and here's me
smoking a cigar.
And there's place for that.
Don't get me wrong, I racego-karts.
There's a helmet back there.
I like speed.
Speed has been a huge part ofmy life, right, and I know that
connection is really what makesme feel loved, and one of the
best things about my go-kartracing is hanging out with the
guys that I go-kart race like.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
That's just as important as the go-kart racing
and the performance itself well,I think this is all good stuff
and I agree with you.
As my therapist taught me along time ago, a couple of years
ago, it's not it's not aboutgoing to pickleball and being
the best pickleball champ.
It's about connecting with otherpeople they're men and women,
(35:25):
usually men and having that goodtime going, going to play
basketball, going to play anysport.
It's about that camaraderiethat makes you feel connected as
a human being.
And talking about empathy, Ithink connection is the next
best thing and I want to mentionthat because you were talking
about it and I think it's soimportant and that's why men's
(35:45):
group work.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
But I want to finish on this.
We're designed to be connected,Steve.
That's who we are.
It's in our genetic andpsychological makeup.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
And that's why no one makes it out of here alive, and
certainly no one makes it ontheir own, which is the other
part that I kind of remindpeople.
I'm going to do this on my ownnow, but, ok, continue thinking
that way.
But I want you to tell me alittle bit more about your men's
groups, what you do for youknow and what, where people can
reach you, cause I think thatmight be important for a whole
lot of people.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Yeah, I like to be simple, steve, so you can find
me at Lee Povey everywhereleepoveycom leepovey on
Instagram, linkedin and Facebook, and I'm most active on
LinkedIn and Instagram.
I want to be of service.
I want to be of service to men.
(36:38):
I want to keep creating biggerand bigger platforms for men to
get together, to share, tosupport each other.
I think there is a hugeloneliness.
I don't think there is a hugeloneliness epidemic.
Right now.
Suicide rates are skyrocketingfor middle-aged men where their
family is broken up, they getdivorced, their kids are off
doing their own thing andthey're lonely because men are
worse at creating friends andmaintaining friendships than
women are, and that's one of theroles that my men's group, you
know, fulfills is creating thatconnection and that friendship
(37:01):
group.
That's something that comes outof there and, um, yeah, just
come and talk to me.
It doesn't matter whetheryou're going to join my groups
or not.
If you're a man, you want somehelp, some advice, come and talk
to me.
If you're a founder, you're abusiness owner and you are
getting in your own way, you'remy ideal client, right?
You've got to that point whereyour intelligence is holding the
(37:21):
business back because you cando everything better than
everybody else, but you need toscale.
Come and chat to me.
I'll help you with that.
I am very mission driven.
I want to amplify my impact bythe impact I have on others.
So you know, I look at thesemen's groups and if the guys
become better men because of themen's group, they'll go and
affect other men and theirchildren and their partners in
(37:43):
their community, and that is theway to make change happen.
And one last little aside whenmyself and the endurance coach
created the olympic developmentprogram for usa cycling, the
first thing we put down wascreate better humans.
The second thing we put downwas create olympic champions.
And to come back to your thingabout sport, when I crashed and
(38:05):
had to rebuild myself, a bigshift for me was I have to enjoy
the training, I have to enjoythe racing, and it can't just be
about the winning.
Before that was about thewinning.
Now, and I'm intenselycompetitive.
You won't meet somebody morecompetitive for me, I promise
you.
However, now the onlycompetition is with myself.
I want to be the best versionof myself, and that actually
allows me to be much betterconnected to the other people
(38:27):
that I do sport with, becausethey're not my rivals.
Now the only person I'mcompeting with is me, and I can
have those friendships.
It doesn't matter whether theywin or I win, as long as I feel
like I'm pushing forwards andbeing a better version of myself
.
And guess what?
I won more stuff after adoptingthat attitude than before it,
when it was all about winning.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
I hope that one of my particular clients where I have
that conversation with them allthe time, the best competition
in the world is with yourself.
Yeah, and once you get thereand show you what matters, yeah,
I mean that's kind of what, andhopefully she or he is
listening.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
But thank you so much .
Speaker 2 (39:04):
I'm happy that we're going to make two episodes out
of this.
I'm happy for everything youshared and it's nice to have.
We never met until today and Iam so happy we met and I
sincerely hope we stay incontact because I truly, truly
enjoyed our conversation.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Well, that completes episode 215.
Thank you so much, lee Povey,and go find him on his website,
great guy, and I will see you inthe next episode.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(39:58):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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