August 6, 2025 • 36 mins
What happens when a police sergeant and a therapist build a life together? Dustin and Ashley Wright open up about their 13-year journey as a first responder couple in this vulnerable and insightful conversation that challenges conventional thinking about trauma, communication, and resilience.
The conversation takes an unexpected turn when Dustin shares how a seemingly routine cardiac arrest call triggered a trauma response that affected his intimate relationship with Ashley. This powerful revelation highlights how personal associations can make any incident potentially traumatic for first responders, regardless of its apparent severity. Even more surprising is Ashley's admission that despite her clinical training, she missed the signs of her husband's struggle – demonstrating how skilled first responders can become at compartmentalizing their experiences.
Together, they unpack practical communication strategies that have helped them navigate the unique challenges of first responder life. From establishing code words for difficult days to creating intentional decompression time, the Wrights offer actionable insights for couples facing similar struggles. They emphasize building communication habits during normal times that create pathways for vulnerable conversation when crises occur.
The discussion expands beyond their marriage to explore how community support and spiritual practice form essential pillars of their resilience strategy. Dustin describes his involvement with BRAVE (Building Relationships Among Veterans and Emergency Responders), while Ashley highlights her network of first responder spouses who provide understanding and encouragement. Their message is clear: no one builds resilience alone.
Whether you're a first responder, the partner of one, or simply interested in strengthening your relationship through difficult times, this conversation offers both practical wisdom and emotional reassurance. The Wrights' willingness to share their personal journey provides a powerful testament to the possibility of thriving, not just surviving, as a first responder family. Listen now to discover how vulnerability, community, and intentional communication can transform your approach to life's inevitable challenges.
To reach Ashley or Dustin, please go to http://www.valorcounselingcenter.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Well, hi everyone and welcome to Episode 216.
If you haven't listened toEpisode 215 yet, go back and
listen.
It's a conclusion of episode212 with Lee Povey.
It was really good.
I hope you go back and listen.
But episode 216, which willalso be episode 217, I'm
planning to do a pretty longinterview is with Dustin and
Ashley Wright.
Dustin and Ashley Wright are theproud owners of the Valor
(01:03):
Counseling Center, a privatecounseling practice focused on
working with first responders inHolly Springs, north Carolina.
Dustin is a police sergeant andhas been in the field for over
16 years and has assisted inareas such as SWAT, community
service supervisor, as well aspatrolling.
He also started Wright trainingand consulting to help families
(01:24):
and business better prepare forthreats.
Ashley is a licensed counselorand supervisor and specializes
in trauma response, wellness andbuilding a team with clinicians
.
We're passionate about helpingour heroes in the community.
Both have been married for 13years together and they've been
together for 15 years.
They have three children andtwo dogs.
I don't know why they getoutnumbered like that, but
(01:46):
that's life and they lovetraveling together as a family
and they are fans of the OhioState Buckeyes and they are
passionate about growing intheir faith in Christ, alongside
their church family, lookingforward to talking to them.
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That will save you time andmoney, and I highly encourage
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Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 216.
You know, sometimes you ask forguests, and the reason why is
that.
I think that sometimes I getoffered all these weird guests
that want to talk about stuffthat's not related to first
(03:39):
responder stuff and while Irespect what they do, I'm done
getting you know talking aboutcertain things, and one of the
first people to respond to me isone of our guests and she
talked about her husband being afirst respondent.
I'm like, hey, bring him on too, and he's done this before, so
it's not like I'm doing anythingspecial, unfortunately, I
thought I was like beinginnovative or some shit.
(04:01):
But anyway, ashley and DustinWright, welcome to Resilience
Development in Action.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I appreciate it.
You know, I got to know you alittle bit pre-interview.
I looked up some of the stuffwe exchanged, but my audience
doesn't know who you are, so itmight be helpful for you guys to
do a quick intro of each other.
So go ahead, I'll go with.
We'll start with Ashley, sinceshe's the one who responded to
me first.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Well, hi, thanks for having us.
My name's Ashley, like Stevesaid, and yeah, we've been
married a little over 12 yearsnow, going on 13.
And I am a clinician in NorthCarolina, around Raleigh, a
little outside of Raleigh.
I own a first responder therapypractice and we work with all
(04:47):
first responders as well astheir spouses, family members,
people that are connected tofirst responders in any sort of
way, and we opened our practiceabout three years ago because we
saw a need and we wanted tooffer a space for responders to
not only come and feel safe andlike it was a trusted place for
(05:10):
them to share and open up andkind of fight the stigma of
mental health, but also fortheir family members to feel
supported and encouraged,because we know firsthand what
that feels like to have goodcommunity and resources and the
things we need.
So we opened that practice.
It's been going great and wehave three children that are 10,
(05:33):
eight and six and two dogs, andso life is busy, but we are
very thankful and blessed andgrateful to be here.
So that's a little bit about me.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
You definitely had me go first, Steve.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, that's right, Follow that up.
Well, I was going to start offwith one of the most I've done a
few like I've done 200 episodesplus, obviously, One of the
episodes I got the most reactionwas when I talked to Cindy
Doyle, talked about couples, andI got so many personal messages
from that, Like finally someonerecognizing the stress on the
(06:09):
families.
So, yeah, you got to follow upwith this, Dustin, you're behind
the eight ball already, becausethat's really important and I
always.
You know I'm going to have afollow up question later about
why did you decide to beoutnumbered by your kids, but
that probably is not relevantright now.
Go ahead, Dustin, introduceyourself.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Yes, I'm Dustin.
I have been a police officergoing on 16 years now, currently
the rank of sergeant In thepolicing world.
I've done a little bit ofeverything long time SWAT team
member, instructor, fieldtraining officer, pretty much
you name it.
I've done it at some point.
Yeah, ashley, summed up thefamily stuff on the side.
I myself go to therapy andreally want to break that stigma
(06:46):
because it's helped methroughout my career and we'll
talk about it.
But you know, one of thesituations that occurred to me
was something that was not thattraumatic Like you would look at
it and be like, well, how didthat affect you?
And it did Like it wasn't a youknow a gunshot wound, you know
a suicide or anything like that,or traumatic infant death.
It was a you know a differentsituation altogether.
(07:06):
So seeing the indicators andthen how we respond to that with
the family is important.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Well, first of all, thank you for being a service to
the community.
Appreciate you.
Number two what I've said tomany times and they've heard on
my podcast and people who knowme say I say this a lot I don't
get to decide what trauma is.
I don't get to decide thatthere's a woman a long time ago
(07:32):
came in because she saw a deadcat on the side of the road, and
I've dealt with a guy who hadthree blue babies in the same
week.
Which one is worse?
The answer is they're equalbecause it affected you, and I
think that that's the stuff thatguys have to start
understanding.
You know, you kind of piqued mycuriosity here when you said
it's one thing that happened andshouldn't have been that way
(07:52):
and I hate the should wordbecause to me you might as well
say shit and swear, but what was?
What was the thing thattriggered you to go to therapy
and decided like, wait a minute,I need to treat this shit Well
so it.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
It was affecting my home life, my intimacy with my
wife.
So long story short, confessinga lot here.
But the situation was I gotcalled to a cardiac arrest call
where they're investigating.
He is pretty much on the lineof deceased or not.
They're working to bring himback and he's on the Lucas
machine, which is the machinethat pumps your chest up and
(08:24):
down to simulate CPR.
It's super violent.
If you haven't seen it in person, well, I see that.
I go outside and one of myofficers is interviewing the
wife and she says we just hadsex, like we had just gotten
done being intimate.
And then I associated that inmy own life with oh my gosh, I'm
(08:44):
going to die because of this.
And it took me a while to seethe indicators.
But like during when me andAshley were being intimate, like
my chest would start gettingtight and stuff, because I was
associating that.
So I told my therapist at thetime and said, hey, this is
going on and we treated it withthe MDR.
That time was the best fit.
(09:06):
And, um, yeah, I had to be openwith my spouse about it, cause
she didn't have a clue.
Um, I mean, but internally itwas really affecting me.
It was hard on me during thattime, so not your normal
situation, but yeah, it wastraumatic.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Okay, and I think that that shows the love you
have for your wife too, and youdidn't want to do that to her,
didn't want to do that toyourself and your kids, and so
on and so forth.
I think we misplayed the deathpart.
If you're afraid of death,that's something you need to
address and what I tell peopleis if you're afraid of that,
you're not accepting life,because part of life is we're
(09:45):
all going to die Just how it is.
I know Sorry, for life is we'reall gonna die just how it is.
I know sorry for being darkmyself, but it's just how I see
life.
Maybe it's because I turned 50a couple weeks ago, whatever, uh
, but but the point is is it'snot about what it was, it's how
it affects your life.
You know, I think one of myfirst reasons to go to therapy
is I had a young child myselfand I went to a firefighter who
(10:09):
was in, who had just went to hisown kids, sids, and it kind of
fucked me up and I had to go totherapy for that, among other
things.
I'm still in therapy daily, notdaily, every three weeks, four
weeks, depending on how I'mdoing, but you know, I was
trying to like no, I'm a toughguy.
This is different.
No, don't be tough guy.
No, it's okay.
(10:29):
You're allowed to be havingmoments, and I think that's
important.
I share that because I tellpeople the reason why you go to
therapy doesn't really matter aslong as you're getting some
support, and I don't thinkpeople understand that.
Do you feel like I'm going toturn to you a little bit here,
ashley, because you know, as aperson in the couple, did you
(10:50):
even know that this was on hismind in any way?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
shape or form.
That's the interesting thing.
You know, part of me was alittle bit surprised that I
didn't see the indicators.
You know one, dustin and I havealways had a close relationship
and we've communicated, I feellike, pretty well over the years
we're best friends and so Ididn't see the indicators.
He hid it very well and, beinga therapist, I didn't even see
it.
So, like Dustin said, for a longtime I was not really aware and
(11:19):
there were times when it wouldkind of slowly come up in
conversation.
But eventually he got to aplace where he did share with me
what they had worked on intherapy and and that was hard
but it was also very healing forour relationship.
For him to be so vulnerablewith me about intimacy in
(11:40):
general is vulnerable, but forhim to bring this up and for us
to talk about it and in a verygentle and non-shaming way
brought us closer together andso I was really grateful for
that, that it did eventuallycome up.
Like you just said, steve, likegoing to therapy, the fact that
you're going and just talkingis huge and that taking that
(12:02):
step is really important and itreally does go a long way.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And I think that one of the walls that I want to also
talk about with particularlyfirst responders.
I've had more than once someonecome in who was like fix me,
I'm sorry he's the spouse andcouldn't fucking read his mind.
How am I going to read mindswhen someone sits there and goes
, fix me?
(12:27):
I'm sorry, the magic wand'supstairs, I'll have to go get it
some other time, but right nowlet's talk, and I want part of
the breaking the barriers is notonly and talk about intimacy.
You know, I think that one ofthe things that I find people
struggle the most is to talkabout intimacy.
I mean, you're a therapist.
I'm sure that you see peoplecome to you and like have a
(12:48):
little sex problem?
He like, why are you laughing?
Let's fucking talk about it.
Um, and I think that there's oneof those barriers and I'll turn
to both of you on that question, because I feel that first
responders are particularlythat's their virility and who
they are, and if they can't be,like performing their whatever,
and I think that plays a factorin that image, bullshit image,
(13:10):
whatever you want to call it andyou can correct me if I'm wrong
there, dustin, but I don't knowwhoever wants to answer it Both
of you, how did you know, as acouple, having that conversation
?
How helpful was it?
And do you feel that it's acultural thing also, dustin?
Speaker 4 (13:25):
I think, especially in law enforcement, you have
this alpha type, right Like I goto work, I control the scenes,
I control what goes on, and thenyou come home and especially if
you haven't gotten out of thatrole, you have that same
expectation hey, honey, it'stime to have sex, you know like
so I'll turn it over to her.
But I think there's aexpectations and communication
(13:47):
that need to be shared.
You know what's the expectationand am I communicating my needs
?
But I'll let you finish up fromyour side.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
No, I mean, I think that's that's very true.
And you know I think I go backto that vulnerability piece
Intimacy is very important and Ithink a lot of times for a lot
of couples, and especially infirst responder couples, because
the stress levels are so high,you know, that can feel like a
little bit more of a demand orpressure on the relationship.
(14:19):
And so you know you add in allthe other things that happen in
marriage that are hard.
It can be difficult, but wehave not by any means or in any
way figured it out.
I don't think any couple everdoes.
But we've both kind of decidedat some point early on in our
marriage that we're committedand we're going to continue to
(14:39):
talk and try to figure it outand support each other so that
we're both feeling heard.
And I know easier said thandone, we can say that all day
long.
In the moment when you're inconflict you tend to push each
other away.
But I think that's, you know,something that has been really
helpful and valuable to us tonot give up.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
And I think that what you just said is absolutely
like.
I like what you said abouthaving that open lines of
communication.
It's hard to talk about a lotof stuff and then, when you take
the job in consideration, likeyou're, you're a problem solver,
you're a therapist in yourprofessional life and you're a
problem solver in your job, andso for you to be both problem
solvers but not willing to bringup the problem is sometimes one
(15:23):
of those things that you see incouples.
That's a little bit of what Iwanted to talk about too,
because these day-to-daystressors happen in a
relationship.
You're outnumbered by threekids and two dogs.
That's just how it is, but youneed to talk about that, while
maybe you had.
You know, if you're a therapist,I've heard about a lot of
trauma stuff that I go home andgo oh, that was heavy, and you
(15:45):
go to a scene and I've donethose two as a mental health
counselor.
Never been a police officer,never wanted to steal away from
what people do no, because somepeople like get weird about that
shit, but as a mental healthcounselor, went to scenes and
you know, you see a guy jump infront of a car, in front from uh
, you know, believe me, I'veseen those too.
I go home and your daughtergoes let's go play.
(16:07):
I don't want to fucking playright now.
So I think that it's.
How do you deal with these dayto day stressors?
Particularly when there's acrisis, there's a stressor
that's probably unique on thatday.
It's not every day, obviously,we hear this stuff, but how do
you guys deal with that?
That's for both of you.
I'd like to hear both youranswers.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
I know one of the things we try to do and I think
this is important is having,like, planning and preparation
beforehand.
I can't come home and drop themost traumatic thing on my wife
for the day if we haven't talkedabout the small stuff the other
days.
So, starting now planningcoming home and hey, can I talk
(16:45):
to you about this?
Can I share with you whatoccurred today home?
And hey, can I talk to youabout this?
Can I share with you whatoccurred today?
And that way there's someunderstanding there that when
you come home and go, hey, Iwitnessed this big thing today,
you know, and you don't have tobe super detailed like, but hey,
I saw, like you just mentioned,like I saw a guy jump in front
of a car and it was horrific.
Right, you don't have to go,well, their bones were sticking
(17:06):
out, but you can share with her.
Hey, this occurred.
This is, this is what's goingon in me.
From your standpoint might be alittle bit different, but I
think you and you, you feelconnected to me, and then, over
communication versus undercommunication, for any first
responder that's gone to a scene, you'd rather know way more
(17:26):
than way less.
You'd rather know way more thanway less.
And I don't think there'sanything wrong with over
communicating in a relationshipthroughout the day or throughout
, you know, the week, to helpwith those stressors.
So you understand, hey, it'snot out of the blue when you
bring up.
Hey, this occurred and I havesomething going on with it, you
know.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Yeah, and I would just add to that too.
I think that sometimes, likeDustin said, you might have a
small trauma, a big trauma,whatever happens in the day.
We all the time have kidsrunning around and so it's
really hard sometimes to be ableto really open up.
And so even those simplemessages of hey, today was rough
(18:07):
, can we talk about it later?
Or hey, I just need thatdecompression time, you know,
those are indicators to me as aspouse, and it goes both ways,
cause I talked to a lot ofresponders, like you were saying
, steve.
You know I hear a lot, so I getmore of the secondary trauma,
and so there are things that Ihave to do to let Dustin know
sometimes, like, hey, I justneed a minute because I took in
(18:30):
a lot and, um, I need to somehowrelease this.
I, a police psychologist out inCalifornia, dr Sherilyn Lee, she
said one time you know youdrink a lot, at some point you
need to pee.
And I love that because Ithought, wow, responders
absolutely drink a lot andthey're kind of used to it.
(18:51):
At some point they do need topee.
And it very much happens, Ithink, in marriage too, where we
take in a lot just day to dayand doesn't mean we need to pee
on each other, but we do need torelease it somehow in an
appropriate way.
Support each other, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Or you'll pee on each other, but anyway, and if
you're into that, that's fine.
No judgment, but the point is,is we don't know they're into
that, just for the audience.
But you know one of the pointsthat you made.
There's a few things that yousaid.
I mean, I my girlfriend knowson Tuesdays it's my long day and
(19:30):
I typically have my firstresponder group at seven o'clock
.
Well, my girlfriend knows thatthere's days where I'm like, are
you okay?
Yeah, I don't want to talk, andshe gets it, she doesn't go.
Oh my God, like why don't youknow?
Cause there's days I just don'twant to talk and there's days
where I'm like, yeah, I want toopen up about X, y, z, because
it was a tough day, and shelistens and it's important.
(19:51):
And I want to note somethingthat you said earlier, dustin,
that I will slightly disagreewith you.
That's not over communication,that's simple communication,
because you got to be able tolike I had a tough call today
and as a therapist, you knowthis line too, I'm sure.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
But the line that I use is do you want support or do
you want a solution?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
And then even in a couple that's important, to say
you want me to solve this or youwant me to just listen.
And sometimes you don't want tobe going solving problems,
sometimes you just want to talkabout it.
There's difficult stuff youjust you know no one's going to
solve, you just want to talkabout.
You know there's.
There's difficult stuff.
You just you know no one'sgoing to solve, you just want to
talk about it.
And actually being open aboutthat part of communication is so
important because you know youget home I don't know what shift
(20:37):
you work on.
What shift are you on, dustin?
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Currently I have a pretty cake schedule.
I'm in a specialty unit so Iwork Tuesday through Friday
eight to six.
So I come home, kids run out,um.
But if I text her and go, hey,you know I need a few minutes,
you know I need to come in andjust hang out in the bedroom.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
She understands that because I've communicated that
ahead of time and there's no youknow questions.
So yeah, I mean, if you have a,you know, but it's also you
know.
You get home at six, 30 and atseven o'clock you got to be at a
soccer game or ballet or andI'm not trying to push any sport
or anything, I'm just puttingout different things you might
be able to like listen.
Can I just take 10 minutes tojust wipe my brain?
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
And that's important, or or I don't need that time
let's go, go, go, and that'sfine too.
But communication,communication, that's the
day-to-day schedule.
Children, keep you so busy.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
I mean, yeah, and even if it's not a sport thing,
they just hey, I got a.
I got a six-year-old little boy.
Daddy, you go wrestle me.
Daddy, we play catch.
Daddy, you know, I mean, all hewants is boy time.
And then my girls, they, theywant to just love and hug on,
daddy, you know.
Um, so, like, even if it's notsports, you know, I want to be a
good dad.
I want, when they grow up, Iwant them to remember hey, my
(21:49):
dad was there for me.
So you know, it's all thesethings trying to balance and
what's where's the priority?
And sometimes the priorityneeds to be on me when I come
home, you know, and justunderstanding that for a little
bit, Am I a bad dad for that?
No, you know, because the endgoal is, hey, I take 15 minutes
now to myself and then I can goand be with them.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
So yeah, and I would add to that too.
I was thinking, you knowsomething that we've learned and
again, our children are stillfairly young.
But I think just in ourcommunity we've had a lot of
conversations with otherresponder families, marriages,
connections and that's been sucha blessing to us to have that
(22:31):
community to connect with peoplewhose kids are older, who you
know, maybe they're headedtowards retirement and so
they're just different season oflife and so when you have
littles, when they're in diapersand bottles and all the things,
I mean it's really justcontrolled chaos.
You're just trying to stayafloat most of the time and
survive, and especially if youhave two working parents, which
(22:52):
most of the time that is thecase these days that can get
really stressful easily.
And so something that's beenreally helpful for us is
prioritizing our relationship.
Faith is important to us, so weprioritize that piece first,
and then each other and then ourchildren, and we do do the
sports things, but we've alwaysjust set a boundary you can each
(23:14):
do one thing at a time, becausethere's three of you and we
don't want to be gone everynight, and when daddy's on night
shift or whatnot, I don't wantto be doing it by myself.
That's stressful for me and wehave a lot of family and help.
But there are different seasonswith your children.
But knowing your know which isBoundaries 101 in counseling you
know that is extremelyimportant for you to be on the
(23:36):
same page and be that teamtogether.
Dustin has the privilege ofgoing on a missions trip in
two-ish weeks to Ecuador for 10days.
Ecuador for 10 days and I don'twant to steal his thunder but
it's an amazing opportunitybecause he gets to work with
police officers down there andtrain them and share the gospel
and do just a lot of work withthem a sniper course.
(23:56):
And we have to plan and preparefor that because I'm going to
be a single parent for 10 days.
So I need my tribe, I need myother responder families tribe,
I need my other responderfamilies, our personal family.
We have to be prepared so thathe has a great time and then
we're okay at home and it'sabout serving one another and
(24:19):
again making that a priority inour relationship so that, like
Dustin said earlier, when thingsget hard, when the crap hits
the fan and it has definitelyhit the fan at times in marriage
, in the police department, inour friends who are in the fire
department stations.
You know when the crap hits thefan, we're not thrown off.
It's like you know.
(24:39):
This is terrible, this is atragedy, but we have been
grounded and united and preparedfor these moments.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Yeah, we have things in place to kind of be ready for
that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
There's two things that brought you brought up that
I absolutely adore.
Number one the the faith andhaving some sort of spiritual
life.
I personally, as a Buddhist,very open about it and in
podcast I'm I'm open to everyhelp like, like spiritual life,
religion, because as long as itdoesn't harm people, it's good,
(25:12):
and I think that peopleunderestimate the importance of
good faith, not only as a youknow first responder or in the
counseling world, but in general.
Having that faith is important.
I think that you mentioned thatand I want to say that out loud
, because going to going tochurch or going to you know I'm
blanking right now but any typeof spiritual place, there's a
(25:34):
sense of community that youcannot replace and which brings
me to the second part.
You know, going to church inthe past for police officers
meant you're going to alter andhave alcohol, but going to a
community of supportive mentalhealth first responders who
understand all this stuff is soimportant, whether they're in
(25:56):
the retirement, their first year, their 12th year and everywhere
in between.
Having that support system andseeing it as such, so that you
know, as you know as a therapistand I know, as you know as a
police officer how many peoplehave solved their problems on
their own Not very many, I don'tknow of anyone.
Yeah, so having that community,instead of like sitting there
(26:23):
and not communicating to thepolice officer, the firefighter,
the paramedic, the EMT, thedispatcher, you got to be able
to have that conversation.
It doesn't mean you break downand cry in the middle of this,
like working, but you kind of gohey, you know, that was a rough
call.
And if someone says, oh, Ifound it easy, doesn't mean you
need to be shamed like, oh, no,I just found the call tough
myself.
And being able to communicatethat, and and most of the guys
(26:44):
will respond in a verysupportive way like, oh, you
know shit, you know shit, let's,let's go, let's go, let's go in
the other room, let's take atake.
You know, take 15, go, you know, go, go somewhere.
And I think that that's what Itell people is that the biggest
way to for trauma to win issilence, you know, and the best
way for trauma to die and justbe acute stress disorder is
(27:07):
talking about it openly.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
And I think that that's what you're talking about
, and maybe I'm paraphrasingwhat you just said, but that's
truly how I feel is I couldn'tdo it without the support I have
in my life.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Yeah, I think.
One thing I want to add thereis around a group of like-minded
people.
So my small group, afaith-based small group, is
called, called BRAVE, buildingRelationships Among Veterans and
Emergency Responders, and theyget it right, they get the humor
, they get the differences.
We have firefighters, lawenforcement, military, and just
last week we had a guy come inand said, hey, I'm struggling,
(27:41):
and you know how many hands wentup and said, yeah, I've been
there, let's work on this Tofeel that inside, like, hey,
it's not just me, cause that'swhat we tend to do.
Right, we go inside and we go,oh, nobody else can help me with
this.
They don't know what I'm goingthrough.
When you start getting that,like you said, isolation, and
then nothing gets, gets changed,whereas if you go and you share
it with the group, you know ofclose, trustworthy people that
(28:03):
understand it, you're going toget some solutions, you're going
to get help.
Even if somebody just sends youa text to say thinking about
you today, let me know if youneed anything.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
It's one of those things.
Before you go on, I want tohear your point, but this is
something I hate hearing.
My first responders arechronically wrong.
When they say this, they'relike oh, you know what?
I'm really screwed up today.
I don't think I'm going to comeinto therapy.
What that's more screwed up.
What you just said Show upbecause you're screwed up.
Don't wait till you're morescrewed up.
(28:33):
I didn't think about it thatway.
So, like, like minded peoplevery important.
Yeah sorry to interrupt Ashley.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
No, I was gonna say I love what you said about
talking the vulnerability.
I know that's kind of beencoming up throughout this whole
podcast Because I see it as atherapist.
We see it from a faith basedperspective that Satan loves
shame and he loves isolation andhe loves when we don't bring
(29:02):
things up, when we don't talkabout it.
And we can look at COVID as aperfect example the amount of
isolation and the chaos thereand where people were really
struggling and because theydidn't have community, and so
we've all had that collectivetrauma together and that's a
good example of this.
And so certainly in theresponder world, that is a huge
(29:26):
part to being able to continueto build resiliency, build into
even your marriage.
I think about Dustin has hisgroup.
I have a women's group and we'respouses and there's a couple of
women in the group who arespouses and sworn officers and
there's a couple of women in thegroup who are spouses and sworn
officers.
And you know it's so specialbecause it's not a vent group
(29:47):
but it's an opportunity, likeDustin's group, to encourage and
hear and share and I feel likewhen I have that I can show up
and in our marriage better and Ifeel like I've been able to
process some things with somewomen that I trust that
understand the responder worldor the spousal world of a
responder.
And then you know, like thething I mentioned earlier,
(30:08):
dustin being in Ecuador comingup, I have these women in my
life where, if something comesup, I can call any of them and I
know that they get it and theyunderstand and so, like Dustin
said, like-minded individuals toencourage and care and support,
and that goes such a long way,not just in marriage, even as a
(30:30):
single person, I would say youknow, everybody needs community,
so that's, that's huge.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
You talk about resiliency.
I think resiliency comes ingroups.
No one's resilient only ontheir own.
You know resilience,development and action, I tell
people.
Development means you alwayshave to work on it.
Yes, I'm a pretty resilientperson but unfortunately,
because of my job, because ofthe work I've done, whether it's
in jails or in the communitywith the first responder world
(30:58):
sometimes, like seeing a deadcat on the road might screw me
up.
And that doesn't make me strongor better or worse, it just
makes me human.
And having that communitylike-minded community, as you
said, and knowing that you'llnever make it on your own, no
one does is very important.
And whether it is God, it isJesus, it is Allah, it is Buddha
(31:19):
, it is whoever, I don't reallycare personally.
But having that sense ofcommunity, like-minded people
who know that they're not goingto do it on their own and if you
ever find me someone who did itcompletely on their own, I'm
very interested because I'd loveto study them, but I don't
believe that for one second.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Absolutely yes, yeah, really important.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
So we talked about resiliency, which is you know, I
love that word, obviouslywhat's the key to building
resiliency, not only as a couple, but as a human, and why?
What?
What need?
Why do we need to buildresiliency?
Why can I just say you knowwhat?
I've held the community, I'vebeen a therapist for 25 years.
Why is it so important tocontinue to develop that
(32:00):
resiliency?
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Well, I can start.
I feel like, for me, resiliencythat word really didn't come to
my mind, honestly, until about,I would say, 2020, somewhere
around early COVID time.
There was a book that mycounselor had told me about.
It's called Resilient.
It's by John Elridge and it wasso fantastic and he talks about
(32:25):
.
He offers a pause app, which Ihighly recommend to anyone, but
it's essentially likemindfulness and teaches you
about what it truly means tobuild resiliency and more in a
spiritual sense, if you will,and so that was instrumental for
me to learn that and topractice that and just gain some
(32:46):
better skills around.
What does it mean for me to kindof live in this world of?
The crap is going to hit thefan, life is going to happen.
There's going to be hardship,pain is inevitable, like you
know the things that we all know, and especially in responder
world.
As a spouse, I know that myhusband has seen way more evil
than the average person, and soacknowledging that part and then
(33:09):
, at the same time, being ableto find peace, you know what
does that mean?
What does that look like?
To hold both things at the sametime?
And so we've all heard thequote, the saying you know, pain
is inevitable, but the struggleis manageable.
There's ways to manage this,and I think about that.
I think about resiliency as anopportunity, and it's not
(33:32):
something that comes overnight,but it's something that you
build into and, for our marriagespecifically, something that
Dustin and I have been reallyintentional about.
Again, we don't have it down,we fail all the time, but it
humbles us and it spurs us andit teaches us to keep going, or
whatnot.
But something that we havefound that has been helpful is
(33:53):
learning to invest in ourrelationship and study each
other, and part of that studyingis one taking a step back and
acknowledging myself as anindividual.
You know where do I struggle,where do I need to improve, what
do I need to change?
Because there's alwayssomething.
And so acknowledging that andhumbling myself and being
(34:15):
vulnerable with Dustin about hey, please forgive me, because
this part of my life I'm notreally great at like one thing
that comes to mind is I, forsome reason, I'm never early to
anything, and Dustin is verydifferent in that way, and so
and it drives him crazy, but Ilike to use every moment, every
minute, and so it's somethingthat I've had to be mindful of
(34:37):
and work on and show up better.
And that's just a small example, but I work on myself.
And then in our marriage we havetold ourselves hey, what does
it mean to study each other?
You know, we are constantlychanging and growing and
learning about each other.
That should never stop.
And so if I'm really investingin our marriage in that way, I'm
(35:00):
I'm essentially saying, hey,I'm going to prioritize you.
You're important to me AfterGod, you're next in line and I
want to serve you with my wholeheart in the best way.
I want to show up in ourmarriage, and so when I do that,
the kids are better, my work isbetter, life just is easier.
And who doesn't want that?
(35:20):
So that's what I would say.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Well, at this point we need to stop, not because
it's not interesting, butbecause it is.
We're going to see part two inthe next episode, so come back
for episode 217.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(35:57):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Well, hi everyone and welcome to Episode 216.
If you haven't listened toEpisode 215 yet, go back and
listen.
It's a conclusion of episode212 with Lee Povey.
It was really good.
I hope you go back and listen.
But episode 216, which willalso be episode 217, I'm
planning to do a pretty longinterview is with Dustin and
Ashley Wright.
Dustin and Ashley Wright are theproud owners of the Valor
(01:03):
Counseling Center, a privatecounseling practice focused on
working with first responders inHolly Springs, north Carolina.
Dustin is a police sergeant andhas been in the field for over
16 years and has assisted inareas such as SWAT, community
service supervisor, as well aspatrolling.
He also started Wright trainingand consulting to help families
(01:24):
and business better prepare forthreats.
Ashley is a licensed counselorand supervisor and specializes
in trauma response, wellness andbuilding a team with clinicians
.
We're passionate about helpingour heroes in the community.
Both have been married for 13years together and they've been
together for 15 years.
They have three children andtwo dogs.
I don't know why they getoutnumbered like that, but
(01:46):
that's life and they lovetraveling together as a family
and they are fans of the OhioState Buckeyes and they are
passionate about growing intheir faith in Christ, alongside
their church family, lookingforward to talking to them.
And here's the interviewGetFreeai you heard me talk
(02:12):
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That will save you time andmoney, and I highly encourage
you to do so, and I highlyencourage you to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 216.
You know, sometimes you ask forguests, and the reason why is
that.
I think that sometimes I getoffered all these weird guests
that want to talk about stuffthat's not related to first
(03:39):
responder stuff and while Irespect what they do, I'm done
getting you know talking aboutcertain things, and one of the
first people to respond to me isone of our guests and she
talked about her husband being afirst respondent.
I'm like, hey, bring him on too, and he's done this before, so
it's not like I'm doing anythingspecial, unfortunately, I
thought I was like beinginnovative or some shit.
(04:01):
But anyway, ashley and DustinWright, welcome to Resilience
Development in Action.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I appreciate it.
You know, I got to know you alittle bit pre-interview.
I looked up some of the stuffwe exchanged, but my audience
doesn't know who you are, so itmight be helpful for you guys to
do a quick intro of each other.
So go ahead, I'll go with.
We'll start with Ashley, sinceshe's the one who responded to
me first.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Well, hi, thanks for having us.
My name's Ashley, like Stevesaid, and yeah, we've been
married a little over 12 yearsnow, going on 13.
And I am a clinician in NorthCarolina, around Raleigh, a
little outside of Raleigh.
I own a first responder therapypractice and we work with all
(04:47):
first responders as well astheir spouses, family members,
people that are connected tofirst responders in any sort of
way, and we opened our practiceabout three years ago because we
saw a need and we wanted tooffer a space for responders to
not only come and feel safe andlike it was a trusted place for
(05:10):
them to share and open up andkind of fight the stigma of
mental health, but also fortheir family members to feel
supported and encouraged,because we know firsthand what
that feels like to have goodcommunity and resources and the
things we need.
So we opened that practice.
It's been going great and wehave three children that are 10,
(05:33):
eight and six and two dogs, andso life is busy, but we are
very thankful and blessed andgrateful to be here.
So that's a little bit about me.
Speaker 4 (05:45):
You definitely had me go first, Steve.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah, that's right, Follow that up.
Well, I was going to start offwith one of the most I've done a
few like I've done 200 episodesplus, obviously, One of the
episodes I got the most reactionwas when I talked to Cindy
Doyle, talked about couples, andI got so many personal messages
from that, Like finally someonerecognizing the stress on the
(06:09):
families.
So, yeah, you got to follow upwith this, Dustin, you're behind
the eight ball already, becausethat's really important and I
always.
You know I'm going to have afollow up question later about
why did you decide to beoutnumbered by your kids, but
that probably is not relevantright now.
Go ahead, Dustin, introduceyourself.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Yes, I'm Dustin.
I have been a police officergoing on 16 years now, currently
the rank of sergeant In thepolicing world.
I've done a little bit ofeverything long time SWAT team
member, instructor, fieldtraining officer, pretty much
you name it.
I've done it at some point.
Yeah, ashley, summed up thefamily stuff on the side.
I myself go to therapy andreally want to break that stigma
(06:46):
because it's helped methroughout my career and we'll
talk about it.
But you know, one of thesituations that occurred to me
was something that was not thattraumatic Like you would look at
it and be like, well, how didthat affect you?
And it did Like it wasn't a youknow a gunshot wound, you know
a suicide or anything like that,or traumatic infant death.
It was a you know a differentsituation altogether.
(07:06):
So seeing the indicators andthen how we respond to that with
the family is important.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Well, first of all, thank you for being a service to
the community.
Appreciate you.
Number two what I've said tomany times and they've heard on
my podcast and people who knowme say I say this a lot I don't
get to decide what trauma is.
I don't get to decide thatthere's a woman a long time ago
(07:32):
came in because she saw a deadcat on the side of the road, and
I've dealt with a guy who hadthree blue babies in the same
week.
Which one is worse?
The answer is they're equalbecause it affected you, and I
think that that's the stuff thatguys have to start
understanding.
You know, you kind of piqued mycuriosity here when you said
it's one thing that happened andshouldn't have been that way
(07:52):
and I hate the should wordbecause to me you might as well
say shit and swear, but what was?
What was the thing thattriggered you to go to therapy
and decided like, wait a minute,I need to treat this shit Well
so it.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
It was affecting my home life, my intimacy with my
wife.
So long story short, confessinga lot here.
But the situation was I gotcalled to a cardiac arrest call
where they're investigating.
He is pretty much on the lineof deceased or not.
They're working to bring himback and he's on the Lucas
machine, which is the machinethat pumps your chest up and
(08:24):
down to simulate CPR.
It's super violent.
If you haven't seen it in person, well, I see that.
I go outside and one of myofficers is interviewing the
wife and she says we just hadsex, like we had just gotten
done being intimate.
And then I associated that inmy own life with oh my gosh, I'm
(08:44):
going to die because of this.
And it took me a while to seethe indicators.
But like during when me andAshley were being intimate, like
my chest would start gettingtight and stuff, because I was
associating that.
So I told my therapist at thetime and said, hey, this is
going on and we treated it withthe MDR.
That time was the best fit.
(09:06):
And, um, yeah, I had to be openwith my spouse about it, cause
she didn't have a clue.
Um, I mean, but internally itwas really affecting me.
It was hard on me during thattime, so not your normal
situation, but yeah, it wastraumatic.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Okay, and I think that that shows the love you
have for your wife too, and youdidn't want to do that to her,
didn't want to do that toyourself and your kids, and so
on and so forth.
I think we misplayed the deathpart.
If you're afraid of death,that's something you need to
address and what I tell peopleis if you're afraid of that,
you're not accepting life,because part of life is we're
(09:45):
all going to die Just how it is.
I know Sorry, for life is we'reall gonna die just how it is.
I know sorry for being darkmyself, but it's just how I see
life.
Maybe it's because I turned 50a couple weeks ago, whatever, uh
, but but the point is is it'snot about what it was, it's how
it affects your life.
You know, I think one of myfirst reasons to go to therapy
is I had a young child myselfand I went to a firefighter who
(10:09):
was in, who had just went to hisown kids, sids, and it kind of
fucked me up and I had to go totherapy for that, among other
things.
I'm still in therapy daily, notdaily, every three weeks, four
weeks, depending on how I'mdoing, but you know, I was
trying to like no, I'm a toughguy.
This is different.
No, don't be tough guy.
No, it's okay.
(10:29):
You're allowed to be havingmoments, and I think that's
important.
I share that because I tellpeople the reason why you go to
therapy doesn't really matter aslong as you're getting some
support, and I don't thinkpeople understand that.
Do you feel like I'm going toturn to you a little bit here,
ashley, because you know, as aperson in the couple, did you
(10:50):
even know that this was on hismind in any way?
Speaker 3 (10:58):
shape or form.
That's the interesting thing.
You know, part of me was alittle bit surprised that I
didn't see the indicators.
You know one, dustin and I havealways had a close relationship
and we've communicated, I feellike, pretty well over the years
we're best friends and so Ididn't see the indicators.
He hid it very well and, beinga therapist, I didn't even see
it.
So, like Dustin said, for a longtime I was not really aware and
(11:19):
there were times when it wouldkind of slowly come up in
conversation.
But eventually he got to aplace where he did share with me
what they had worked on intherapy and and that was hard
but it was also very healing forour relationship.
For him to be so vulnerablewith me about intimacy in
(11:40):
general is vulnerable, but forhim to bring this up and for us
to talk about it and in a verygentle and non-shaming way
brought us closer together andso I was really grateful for
that, that it did eventuallycome up.
Like you just said, steve, likegoing to therapy, the fact that
you're going and just talkingis huge and that taking that
(12:02):
step is really important and itreally does go a long way.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And I think that one of the walls that I want to also
talk about with particularlyfirst responders.
I've had more than once someonecome in who was like fix me,
I'm sorry he's the spouse andcouldn't fucking read his mind.
How am I going to read mindswhen someone sits there and goes
, fix me?
(12:27):
I'm sorry, the magic wand'supstairs, I'll have to go get it
some other time, but right nowlet's talk, and I want part of
the breaking the barriers is notonly and talk about intimacy.
You know, I think that one ofthe things that I find people
struggle the most is to talkabout intimacy.
I mean, you're a therapist.
I'm sure that you see peoplecome to you and like have a
(12:48):
little sex problem?
He like, why are you laughing?
Let's fucking talk about it.
Um, and I think that there's oneof those barriers and I'll turn
to both of you on that question, because I feel that first
responders are particularlythat's their virility and who
they are, and if they can't be,like performing their whatever,
and I think that plays a factorin that image, bullshit image,
(13:10):
whatever you want to call it andyou can correct me if I'm wrong
there, dustin, but I don't knowwhoever wants to answer it Both
of you, how did you know, as acouple, having that conversation
?
How helpful was it?
And do you feel that it's acultural thing also, dustin?
Speaker 4 (13:25):
I think, especially in law enforcement, you have
this alpha type, right Like I goto work, I control the scenes,
I control what goes on, and thenyou come home and especially if
you haven't gotten out of thatrole, you have that same
expectation hey, honey, it'stime to have sex, you know like
so I'll turn it over to her.
But I think there's aexpectations and communication
(13:47):
that need to be shared.
You know what's the expectationand am I communicating my needs
?
But I'll let you finish up fromyour side.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
No, I mean, I think that's that's very true.
And you know I think I go backto that vulnerability piece
Intimacy is very important and Ithink a lot of times for a lot
of couples, and especially infirst responder couples, because
the stress levels are so high,you know, that can feel like a
little bit more of a demand orpressure on the relationship.
(14:19):
And so you know you add in allthe other things that happen in
marriage that are hard.
It can be difficult, but wehave not by any means or in any
way figured it out.
I don't think any couple everdoes.
But we've both kind of decidedat some point early on in our
marriage that we're committedand we're going to continue to
(14:39):
talk and try to figure it outand support each other so that
we're both feeling heard.
And I know easier said thandone, we can say that all day
long.
In the moment when you're inconflict you tend to push each
other away.
But I think that's, you know,something that has been really
helpful and valuable to us tonot give up.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
And I think that what you just said is absolutely
like.
I like what you said abouthaving that open lines of
communication.
It's hard to talk about a lotof stuff and then, when you take
the job in consideration, likeyou're, you're a problem solver,
you're a therapist in yourprofessional life and you're a
problem solver in your job, andso for you to be both problem
solvers but not willing to bringup the problem is sometimes one
(15:23):
of those things that you see incouples.
That's a little bit of what Iwanted to talk about too,
because these day-to-daystressors happen in a
relationship.
You're outnumbered by threekids and two dogs.
That's just how it is, but youneed to talk about that, while
maybe you had.
You know, if you're a therapist,I've heard about a lot of
trauma stuff that I go home andgo oh, that was heavy, and you
(15:45):
go to a scene and I've donethose two as a mental health
counselor.
Never been a police officer,never wanted to steal away from
what people do no, because somepeople like get weird about that
shit, but as a mental healthcounselor, went to scenes and
you know, you see a guy jump infront of a car, in front from uh
, you know, believe me, I'veseen those too.
I go home and your daughtergoes let's go play.
(16:07):
I don't want to fucking playright now.
So I think that it's.
How do you deal with these dayto day stressors?
Particularly when there's acrisis, there's a stressor
that's probably unique on thatday.
It's not every day, obviously,we hear this stuff, but how do
you guys deal with that?
That's for both of you.
I'd like to hear both youranswers.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
I know one of the things we try to do and I think
this is important is having,like, planning and preparation
beforehand.
I can't come home and drop themost traumatic thing on my wife
for the day if we haven't talkedabout the small stuff the other
days.
So, starting now planningcoming home and hey, can I talk
(16:45):
to you about this?
Can I share with you whatoccurred today home?
And hey, can I talk to youabout this?
Can I share with you whatoccurred today?
And that way there's someunderstanding there that when
you come home and go, hey, Iwitnessed this big thing today,
you know, and you don't have tobe super detailed like, but hey,
I saw, like you just mentioned,like I saw a guy jump in front
of a car and it was horrific.
Right, you don't have to go,well, their bones were sticking
(17:06):
out, but you can share with her.
Hey, this occurred.
This is, this is what's goingon in me.
From your standpoint might be alittle bit different, but I
think you and you, you feelconnected to me, and then, over
communication versus undercommunication, for any first
responder that's gone to a scene, you'd rather know way more
(17:26):
than way less.
You'd rather know way more thanway less.
And I don't think there'sanything wrong with over
communicating in a relationshipthroughout the day or throughout
, you know, the week, to helpwith those stressors.
So you understand, hey, it'snot out of the blue when you
bring up.
Hey, this occurred and I havesomething going on with it, you
know.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Yeah, and I would just add to that too.
I think that sometimes, likeDustin said, you might have a
small trauma, a big trauma,whatever happens in the day.
We all the time have kidsrunning around and so it's
really hard sometimes to be ableto really open up.
And so even those simplemessages of hey, today was rough
(18:07):
, can we talk about it later?
Or hey, I just need thatdecompression time, you know,
those are indicators to me as aspouse, and it goes both ways,
cause I talked to a lot ofresponders, like you were saying
, steve.
You know I hear a lot, so I getmore of the secondary trauma,
and so there are things that Ihave to do to let Dustin know
sometimes, like, hey, I justneed a minute because I took in
(18:30):
a lot and, um, I need to somehowrelease this.
I, a police psychologist out inCalifornia, dr Sherilyn Lee, she
said one time you know youdrink a lot, at some point you
need to pee.
And I love that because Ithought, wow, responders
absolutely drink a lot andthey're kind of used to it.
(18:51):
At some point they do need topee.
And it very much happens, Ithink, in marriage too, where we
take in a lot just day to dayand doesn't mean we need to pee
on each other, but we do need torelease it somehow in an
appropriate way.
Support each other, yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Or you'll pee on each other, but anyway, and if
you're into that, that's fine.
No judgment, but the point is,is we don't know they're into
that, just for the audience.
But you know one of the pointsthat you made.
There's a few things that yousaid.
I mean, I my girlfriend knowson Tuesdays it's my long day and
(19:30):
I typically have my firstresponder group at seven o'clock
.
Well, my girlfriend knows thatthere's days where I'm like, are
you okay?
Yeah, I don't want to talk, andshe gets it, she doesn't go.
Oh my God, like why don't youknow?
Cause there's days I just don'twant to talk and there's days
where I'm like, yeah, I want toopen up about X, y, z, because
it was a tough day, and shelistens and it's important.
(19:51):
And I want to note somethingthat you said earlier, dustin,
that I will slightly disagreewith you.
That's not over communication,that's simple communication,
because you got to be able tolike I had a tough call today
and as a therapist, you knowthis line too, I'm sure.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
But the line that I use is do you want support or do
you want a solution?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
And then even in a couple that's important, to say
you want me to solve this or youwant me to just listen.
And sometimes you don't want tobe going solving problems,
sometimes you just want to talkabout it.
There's difficult stuff youjust you know no one's going to
solve, you just want to talkabout.
You know there's.
There's difficult stuff.
You just you know no one'sgoing to solve, you just want to
talk about it.
And actually being open aboutthat part of communication is so
important because you know youget home I don't know what shift
(20:37):
you work on.
What shift are you on, dustin?
Speaker 4 (20:39):
Currently I have a pretty cake schedule.
I'm in a specialty unit so Iwork Tuesday through Friday
eight to six.
So I come home, kids run out,um.
But if I text her and go, hey,you know I need a few minutes,
you know I need to come in andjust hang out in the bedroom.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
She understands that because I've communicated that
ahead of time and there's no youknow questions.
So yeah, I mean, if you have a,you know, but it's also you
know.
You get home at six, 30 and atseven o'clock you got to be at a
soccer game or ballet or andI'm not trying to push any sport
or anything, I'm just puttingout different things you might
be able to like listen.
Can I just take 10 minutes tojust wipe my brain?
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
And that's important, or or I don't need that time
let's go, go, go, and that'sfine too.
But communication,communication, that's the
day-to-day schedule.
Children, keep you so busy.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
I mean, yeah, and even if it's not a sport thing,
they just hey, I got a.
I got a six-year-old little boy.
Daddy, you go wrestle me.
Daddy, we play catch.
Daddy, you know, I mean, all hewants is boy time.
And then my girls, they, theywant to just love and hug on,
daddy, you know.
Um, so, like, even if it's notsports, you know, I want to be a
good dad.
I want, when they grow up, Iwant them to remember hey, my
(21:49):
dad was there for me.
So you know, it's all thesethings trying to balance and
what's where's the priority?
And sometimes the priorityneeds to be on me when I come
home, you know, and justunderstanding that for a little
bit, Am I a bad dad for that?
No, you know, because the endgoal is, hey, I take 15 minutes
now to myself and then I can goand be with them.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
So yeah, and I would add to that too.
I was thinking, you knowsomething that we've learned and
again, our children are stillfairly young.
But I think just in ourcommunity we've had a lot of
conversations with otherresponder families, marriages,
connections and that's been sucha blessing to us to have that
(22:31):
community to connect with peoplewhose kids are older, who you
know, maybe they're headedtowards retirement and so
they're just different season oflife and so when you have
littles, when they're in diapersand bottles and all the things,
I mean it's really justcontrolled chaos.
You're just trying to stayafloat most of the time and
survive, and especially if youhave two working parents, which
(22:52):
most of the time that is thecase these days that can get
really stressful easily.
And so something that's beenreally helpful for us is
prioritizing our relationship.
Faith is important to us, so weprioritize that piece first,
and then each other and then ourchildren, and we do do the
sports things, but we've alwaysjust set a boundary you can each
(23:14):
do one thing at a time, becausethere's three of you and we
don't want to be gone everynight, and when daddy's on night
shift or whatnot, I don't wantto be doing it by myself.
That's stressful for me and wehave a lot of family and help.
But there are different seasonswith your children.
But knowing your know which isBoundaries 101 in counseling you
know that is extremelyimportant for you to be on the
(23:36):
same page and be that teamtogether.
Dustin has the privilege ofgoing on a missions trip in
two-ish weeks to Ecuador for 10days.
Ecuador for 10 days and I don'twant to steal his thunder but
it's an amazing opportunitybecause he gets to work with
police officers down there andtrain them and share the gospel
and do just a lot of work withthem a sniper course.
(23:56):
And we have to plan and preparefor that because I'm going to
be a single parent for 10 days.
So I need my tribe, I need myother responder families tribe,
I need my other responderfamilies, our personal family.
We have to be prepared so thathe has a great time and then
we're okay at home and it'sabout serving one another and
(24:19):
again making that a priority inour relationship so that, like
Dustin said earlier, when thingsget hard, when the crap hits
the fan and it has definitelyhit the fan at times in marriage
, in the police department, inour friends who are in the fire
department stations.
You know when the crap hits thefan, we're not thrown off.
It's like you know.
(24:39):
This is terrible, this is atragedy, but we have been
grounded and united and preparedfor these moments.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Yeah, we have things in place to kind of be ready for
that.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
There's two things that brought you brought up that
I absolutely adore.
Number one the the faith andhaving some sort of spiritual
life.
I personally, as a Buddhist,very open about it and in
podcast I'm I'm open to everyhelp like, like spiritual life,
religion, because as long as itdoesn't harm people, it's good,
(25:12):
and I think that peopleunderestimate the importance of
good faith, not only as a youknow first responder or in the
counseling world, but in general.
Having that faith is important.
I think that you mentioned thatand I want to say that out loud
, because going to going tochurch or going to you know I'm
blanking right now but any typeof spiritual place, there's a
(25:34):
sense of community that youcannot replace and which brings
me to the second part.
You know, going to church inthe past for police officers
meant you're going to alter andhave alcohol, but going to a
community of supportive mentalhealth first responders who
understand all this stuff is soimportant, whether they're in
(25:56):
the retirement, their first year, their 12th year and everywhere
in between.
Having that support system andseeing it as such, so that you
know, as you know as a therapistand I know, as you know as a
police officer how many peoplehave solved their problems on
their own Not very many, I don'tknow of anyone.
Yeah, so having that community,instead of like sitting there
(26:23):
and not communicating to thepolice officer, the firefighter,
the paramedic, the EMT, thedispatcher, you got to be able
to have that conversation.
It doesn't mean you break downand cry in the middle of this,
like working, but you kind of gohey, you know, that was a rough
call.
And if someone says, oh, Ifound it easy, doesn't mean you
need to be shamed like, oh, no,I just found the call tough
myself.
And being able to communicatethat, and and most of the guys
(26:44):
will respond in a verysupportive way like, oh, you
know shit, you know shit, let's,let's go, let's go, let's go in
the other room, let's take atake.
You know, take 15, go, you know, go, go somewhere.
And I think that that's what Itell people is that the biggest
way to for trauma to win issilence, you know, and the best
way for trauma to die and justbe acute stress disorder is
(27:07):
talking about it openly.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
And I think that that's what you're talking about
, and maybe I'm paraphrasingwhat you just said, but that's
truly how I feel is I couldn'tdo it without the support I have
in my life.
Speaker 4 (27:19):
Yeah, I think.
One thing I want to add thereis around a group of like-minded
people.
So my small group, afaith-based small group, is
called, called BRAVE, buildingRelationships Among Veterans and
Emergency Responders, and theyget it right, they get the humor
, they get the differences.
We have firefighters, lawenforcement, military, and just
last week we had a guy come inand said, hey, I'm struggling,
(27:41):
and you know how many hands wentup and said, yeah, I've been
there, let's work on this Tofeel that inside, like, hey,
it's not just me, cause that'swhat we tend to do.
Right, we go inside and we go,oh, nobody else can help me with
this.
They don't know what I'm goingthrough.
When you start getting that,like you said, isolation, and
then nothing gets, gets changed,whereas if you go and you share
it with the group, you know ofclose, trustworthy people that
(28:03):
understand it, you're going toget some solutions, you're going
to get help.
Even if somebody just sends youa text to say thinking about
you today, let me know if youneed anything.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
It's one of those things.
Before you go on, I want tohear your point, but this is
something I hate hearing.
My first responders arechronically wrong.
When they say this, they'relike oh, you know what?
I'm really screwed up today.
I don't think I'm going to comeinto therapy.
What that's more screwed up.
What you just said Show upbecause you're screwed up.
Don't wait till you're morescrewed up.
(28:33):
I didn't think about it thatway.
So, like, like minded peoplevery important.
Yeah sorry to interrupt Ashley.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
No, I was gonna say I love what you said about
talking the vulnerability.
I know that's kind of beencoming up throughout this whole
podcast Because I see it as atherapist.
We see it from a faith basedperspective that Satan loves
shame and he loves isolation andhe loves when we don't bring
(29:02):
things up, when we don't talkabout it.
And we can look at COVID as aperfect example the amount of
isolation and the chaos thereand where people were really
struggling and because theydidn't have community, and so
we've all had that collectivetrauma together and that's a
good example of this.
And so certainly in theresponder world, that is a huge
(29:26):
part to being able to continueto build resiliency, build into
even your marriage.
I think about Dustin has hisgroup.
I have a women's group and we'respouses and there's a couple of
women in the group who arespouses and sworn officers and
there's a couple of women in thegroup who are spouses and sworn
officers.
And you know it's so specialbecause it's not a vent group
(29:47):
but it's an opportunity, likeDustin's group, to encourage and
hear and share and I feel likewhen I have that I can show up
and in our marriage better and Ifeel like I've been able to
process some things with somewomen that I trust that
understand the responder worldor the spousal world of a
responder.
And then you know, like thething I mentioned earlier,
(30:08):
dustin being in Ecuador comingup, I have these women in my
life where, if something comesup, I can call any of them and I
know that they get it and theyunderstand and so, like Dustin
said, like-minded individuals toencourage and care and support,
and that goes such a long way,not just in marriage, even as a
(30:30):
single person, I would say youknow, everybody needs community,
so that's, that's huge.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
You talk about resiliency.
I think resiliency comes ingroups.
No one's resilient only ontheir own.
You know resilience,development and action, I tell
people.
Development means you alwayshave to work on it.
Yes, I'm a pretty resilientperson but unfortunately,
because of my job, because ofthe work I've done, whether it's
in jails or in the communitywith the first responder world
(30:58):
sometimes, like seeing a deadcat on the road might screw me
up.
And that doesn't make me strongor better or worse, it just
makes me human.
And having that communitylike-minded community, as you
said, and knowing that you'llnever make it on your own, no
one does is very important.
And whether it is God, it isJesus, it is Allah, it is Buddha
(31:19):
, it is whoever, I don't reallycare personally.
But having that sense ofcommunity, like-minded people
who know that they're not goingto do it on their own and if you
ever find me someone who did itcompletely on their own, I'm
very interested because I'd loveto study them, but I don't
believe that for one second.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Absolutely yes, yeah, really important.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
So we talked about resiliency, which is you know, I
love that word, obviouslywhat's the key to building
resiliency, not only as a couple, but as a human, and why?
What?
What need?
Why do we need to buildresiliency?
Why can I just say you knowwhat?
I've held the community, I'vebeen a therapist for 25 years.
Why is it so important tocontinue to develop that
(32:00):
resiliency?
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Well, I can start.
I feel like, for me, resiliencythat word really didn't come to
my mind, honestly, until about,I would say, 2020, somewhere
around early COVID time.
There was a book that mycounselor had told me about.
It's called Resilient.
It's by John Elridge and it wasso fantastic and he talks about
(32:25):
.
He offers a pause app, which Ihighly recommend to anyone, but
it's essentially likemindfulness and teaches you
about what it truly means tobuild resiliency and more in a
spiritual sense, if you will,and so that was instrumental for
me to learn that and topractice that and just gain some
(32:46):
better skills around.
What does it mean for me to kindof live in this world of?
The crap is going to hit thefan, life is going to happen.
There's going to be hardship,pain is inevitable, like you
know the things that we all know, and especially in responder
world.
As a spouse, I know that myhusband has seen way more evil
than the average person, and soacknowledging that part and then
(33:09):
, at the same time, being ableto find peace, you know what
does that mean?
What does that look like?
To hold both things at the sametime?
And so we've all heard thequote, the saying you know, pain
is inevitable, but the struggleis manageable.
There's ways to manage this,and I think about that.
I think about resiliency as anopportunity, and it's not
(33:32):
something that comes overnight,but it's something that you
build into and, for our marriagespecifically, something that
Dustin and I have been reallyintentional about.
Again, we don't have it down,we fail all the time, but it
humbles us and it spurs us andit teaches us to keep going, or
whatnot.
But something that we havefound that has been helpful is
(33:53):
learning to invest in ourrelationship and study each
other, and part of that studyingis one taking a step back and
acknowledging myself as anindividual.
You know where do I struggle,where do I need to improve, what
do I need to change?
Because there's alwayssomething.
And so acknowledging that andhumbling myself and being
(34:15):
vulnerable with Dustin about hey, please forgive me, because
this part of my life I'm notreally great at like one thing
that comes to mind is I, forsome reason, I'm never early to
anything, and Dustin is verydifferent in that way, and so
and it drives him crazy, but Ilike to use every moment, every
minute, and so it's somethingthat I've had to be mindful of
(34:37):
and work on and show up better.
And that's just a small example, but I work on myself.
And then in our marriage we havetold ourselves hey, what does
it mean to study each other?
You know, we are constantlychanging and growing and
learning about each other.
That should never stop.
And so if I'm really investingin our marriage in that way, I'm
(35:00):
I'm essentially saying, hey,I'm going to prioritize you.
You're important to me AfterGod, you're next in line and I
want to serve you with my wholeheart in the best way.
I want to show up in ourmarriage, and so when I do that,
the kids are better, my work isbetter, life just is easier.
And who doesn't want that?
(35:20):
So that's what I would say.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Well, at this point we need to stop, not because
it's not interesting, butbecause it is.
We're going to see part two inthe next episode, so come back
for episode 217.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(35:57):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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