August 20, 2025 • 35 mins
In this powerful conversation, Hannah Elmore, Senior Clinical Outreach Coordinator for the IAFF Center of Excellence, reveals the critical role of culturally competent care in supporting firefighter mental health. Drawing from her extensive background in clinical social work and deep immersion in fire service culture, Hannah illuminates the often-overlooked nuances of how mental health challenges uniquely manifest in first responders.
The discussion takes us behind the curtain of the IAFF Center of Excellence, a specialized treatment facility created specifically for firefighters seeking help with behavioral health challenges. Unlike traditional hospital settings, this 15-acre facility offers various levels of care in an environment where firefighters can heal among peers who truly understand their experiences. Hannah paints a vivid picture of the Center's approach, from clinical programming to the nightly gatherings around the fire pit—a space intentionally kept free from clinical staff where some of the deepest healing occurs.
Perhaps most compelling is the honest examination of barriers that prevent firefighters from seeking help. Hannah addresses head-on the fears about confidentiality and career impact that keep many suffering in silence. "If you're sweeping things under the rug," she cautions, "eventually the rug is going to get a really big mountain that you're going to trip over." This metaphor perfectly captures the cumulative weight of unaddressed trauma and stress.
Steve and Hannah also discuss the frustrating reality of therapists who lack the necessary understanding of first responder culture. They share stories of firefighters who've had negative experiences with providers who were overwhelmed by their trauma narratives or misinterpreted symptoms due to cultural ignorance. Their passion for connecting first responders with appropriate, vetted resources shines through as they emphasize their collaborative approach to resource sharing.
Whether you're a firefighter struggling with your mental health, a peer support member looking to better assist your colleagues, or a clinician wanting to better serve the first responder community, this episode offers invaluable insights into creating pathways to healing. Ready to learn more about specialized behavioral health support for firefighters? Listen now and discover why cultural competency makes all the difference.
Part 2 will be released next week!
To learn even more about the IAFF Center of Excellence, go to www.iaffrecoverycenter.com
Freed AI converts conversations into SOAP note.Use code Steve50 for $50 off the 1st month!
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Well, hi everyone.
For those of you who are onYouTube, you are going to meet
Bobblehead Steve If.
For those of you who are not onYouTube, go check it out.
But welcome to episode 218.
If you haven't listened toepisode 217, it was the second
one with Ashley and DustinWright.
I hope you enjoy the interview.
It was really great.
We did a two-part and we'regoing to do probably a two-part
with this guest.
(01:02):
Hannah Elmore is someone Iconsider a friend, someone I've
known for about three years.
We were connected from ourformer colleague.
She took over for our colleagueand she is the clinical
outreach coordinator for theIAFF Center of Excellence.
Hannah works with firefightersthrough connections to
behavioral health resources,provides education and offers
(01:25):
support.
Hannah educates on behavioralhealth topics on fire service as
well as first respondercommunities, to departments,
peer teams as well as familiesand clinicians.
She receives her master'sdegree in social work from
Florida State University, goSeminoles, and is certified IAFF
peer support.
Great interview, I'm sure.
(01:47):
Like I said, I've known her fora long time.
She decided to come on, whichwas amazing.
So I think it's going to go fortwo episodes because it's going
to keep on talking about it,because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf 18 months practice with it
(02:16):
and I still enjoy it and itsaves me time and it saves me
energy.
Freeai takes your note, makes atrans and what you're talking
about a client just press record, and it does me energy.
Freedai takes your note, makesa transcript of what you're
talking with a client just pressrecord, and it does either
transcript, it does a subjectiveand an objective, with a letter
if needed for your client andfor whoever might need it.
So for $99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
(02:39):
worthwhile.
And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
You get 10% off.
More importantly, this is whatyou got to remember because you
are my audience that listens toResilience Development in Action
.
If you do listen to this andyou want to use freeai, put in
the code Steve50 in the promocode area, steve50, and you will
(03:01):
get $50 off in addition toeverything we just talked about.
Get freed from writing yournotes, get freed from even
writing your transcripts.
Use that to your advantage.
Freeai a great service.
Go to get freeai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney and I highly encourage you
(03:22):
to do so money, and I highlyencourage you to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 218.
I have what I consider a friendfrom very.
We're very far apartgeographically yet I think we
speak at least once a month, ifa little more than that,
actually about different things.
(03:42):
She's one of the best peopleI've met in the treatment for
first for firefightersparticularly, and who has been,
you know, calling me aboutcertain things.
We had a.
I was on vacation.
She gave me a nice little callabout something.
We'll keep that to ourselves,but it was like that's how our
relationship is, I think.
(04:02):
Sometimes she's not working andshe answers the phone call and
those are solid people you wantin your life.
Hannah Elmore, welcome toResilience Development in Action
.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Thank you, steve.
I'm so excited to be here andalways enjoy my time with you so
greatly, and looking forward tothis conversation today.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
You know right, pre-interview everyone knows I
do a pre-interview.
I was like geez, we're going onon 15 minutes.
I probably should press recordat some point.
We're talking about life.
We're talking about uh, no,both the center of excellence,
which I can't wait for you guysto hear more.
If you don't know what it is,you need to hear more, but more
(04:41):
of the human being, which Itruly appreciate you as a human
being.
Need to hear more, but more ofthe human being which I truly
appreciate you as a human being,hannah.
But obviously people might notknow who you are I do, but how
about you tell everyone herelistening to a little bit?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
more about yourself.
Thank you, Steve, and same toyou with how much I appreciate
the friendship that we've builtand just the professional
relationship that we have andthe conversations that we have.
That really better me as aperson too, up to as recent as
less than 15 minutes ago, whenyou were giving me some
incredible parenting advice andguidance as a new mom myself,
for those that don't know.
So thank you, Steve, and helloeveryone.
(05:14):
I'm excited to be here today.
My name is Hannah Elmore.
I'm the Senior ClinicalOutreach Coordinator for the IFF
Center of Excellence, which isthe International Association of
Firefighters Center ofExcellence for Behavioral Health
Treatment and Recovery, which Iknow we'll talk a little bit
more about in a bit.
Just to make sure that all ofyou all are aware of that
resource for those that are inthe fire service, my role on
this team is to operate tobasically connect first
(05:37):
responders with resources assoon as possible.
If there is a need that comesup or even a question about
what's out there and what is aresource that is a good fit for
what they're looking for, I wantto partner with you and be able
to help you find that resourceas soon as possible.
My background is clinical, so Ido have a background in clinical
social work.
I have my MSW in social workfrom Florida State University
(05:59):
and, if you know me, I am a hugeFlorida State Seminoles fan and
looking very forward tofootball season starting in just
a couple of weeks.
I do reside in the state ofFlorida.
I have most of my life and myclinical training is basically
rooted in health care.
I did receive a lot of myclinical training in different
health care settings, includingthe James A Haley Veterans
(06:20):
Hospital in Tampa, as well asJohns Hopkins All Children's
Hospital in St Petersburg andthen some various nonprofit
agencies as well.
I do not operate in a directpractice role in this capacity.
I am operating in more of aresource connection and an
education-based practice to makesure to not only connect
individuals with resources butprovide some of those proactive
(06:41):
tools to wellness and reallyshining a light on the topic of
behavioral health.
So it can be something that istangible, approachable and
something that individuals cankind of add to their tool belt
each and every day.
Now, in my intro I do also wantto touch on the fact that
working every day with fireservice members and not coming
from a fire service background,that is a huge responsibility on
me to educate myself and reallyarmor myself with understanding
(07:04):
how to work work with fireservice members better
understand the culture, betterunderstand the structure of
their career, better understandjust how they interact with each
other and what are some ofthose best practices to
treatment.
So I have gone through more ofthose formal trainings.
I am certified in IFF peersupport.
I'm certified in some variousclinician trainings in working
with firefighters and I've spenta ton of time at station houses
(07:27):
, around the kitchen table, onride-alongs and fire ops
experiences, really just doingwhat I can to learn and grow
each and every day.
So that's a little snapshot ofme.
On a personal level, I became amom last year and I have a
14-month-old daughter and trulythe center of my husband and I's
world and parenthood hascertainly changed me for the
absolute better and Steve and Ihave talked about that many of
(07:49):
the times, how wonderful it isto become a mom.
So that's a little personaltouch about me as well.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
And a wonderful mom at that, because the curiosity
and the wanting to remember theright things is so important for
parenthood.
But I'm sure that people didn'tjoin necessarily to hear about
our parenting skills.
I do have a background.
You talk about clinicalbackground.
Most people don't know, but mybackground is children and
family services.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Oh, I don't know.
I don't even know if I knewthat Steve.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
I think that most people, even my colleagues in
this building, they're likereally, I never see children or
family and I'm like, yeah, it'sa long story, but the bottom
line is I so love working withkids.
Unfortunately, I worked in aservice where parents weren't
always the best, so it reallydiscouraged me to work with
(08:41):
children.
So I decided to do somethingeasier.
I'm going to work with firstresponders, because that's the
easy part.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Easier, certainly different, but having that
background, really it's clear inthe way that you are so
validating, in the way that youtalk to people and really the
way that you connect with people.
So thank you for sharing that.
I wasn't aware of that.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Well, I figured you know, so you're sharing a little
bit.
I'll share about me.
This is, I think, the firsttime it's been said on this
podcast.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Love it Making history.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
You know you'll learn well.
You know my CBT background, youknow all that background.
But one of the things that Ilove about I love hearing is
that I know that you've listenedto this podcast before, but
what made you decide?
Like gee willikers, I reallywant to talk on Steve's podcast
because I don't know many peoplewho are like certainly not my
shiny personality that wins, butwanted to know why you want to
(09:35):
join the podcast.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
I feel like this podcast is such a wonderful
opportunity to connect withfirst responders and in their
families all over and just havecomfortable, proactive
conversations about behavioralhealth and kind of make it an
easier to approach type ofconversation, not too serious,
not too intimidating, butsomething that can be an easy
listen and really just help tonormalize and validate the
(09:58):
experiences of others.
And I've been on this team nowworking with IFF members for
three years and the dailylearning that I have gone
through just to learn from theexperiences of others and to
learn from peer support teamsand learn from those that are in
leadership when they kind ofstep in to help the behavioral
health of their members, andseeing the impact of reaching
(10:18):
out and asking for help has beenso amazing to witness.
And so any opportunity that Ican, you know, share anything
about contributing to theconversation about proactive
steps to wellness, I'm all in.
So I thought this could be areally cool opportunity and,
steve, you and I go back andforth so often.
I figured why not televise it,why not publicize it and then
(10:40):
and let others be witness to ourconversations as well?
So that was something I thoughtcould be beneficial to.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
I think it's also good to show that you know there
is is for me.
I will tell you the otherreason besides I, you know I
obviously love you, but I alsothink that what happened is that
I feel like people don'tunderstand that when you leave a
place like the center ofexcellence, there is a continuum
of care that exists, and thenthat you know clinicians and
(11:07):
people who work at the center ofexcellence, whether they're not
directly or not, I do knowHannah.
So when you say John Doe islooking for someone, I could
look to Hannah and say noopenings or yes, send them in,
and she follows through and sayhey, by the way, I want to make
sure that John Doe or Jane Doeand we're not gender bias here
is showing up.
(11:28):
There is a continuous of care,and so I think that that's one
of the things that ismisunderstood about these
centers.
Right, because I mean, you knowyou talked about your clinical
background, but I think thatpeople don't understand that
maybe while it is inpatient, itsometimes feels like outpatient,
and then there's a continuing.
It's not like all right, you'regone, see you later and sorry
(11:50):
for putting anyone down, butregular hospitals tend to be
that way, but you're not likethat.
So you know, knowing a littlemore about your clinical
background, is that what broughtyou to kind of that thought
process in regards to we need tofollow up with people and we
got to find what again, this issomething I feel like I plug
every single time on my podcastCulturally competent first
(12:12):
responder therapist, because Ithink that's key.
If you're not culturallycompetent, there's no point to
this.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Absolutely, and unfortunately, one of the
biggest barriers that I hearfrom individuals that have not
maybe received the help thatthey've reached out to get is
because they're seeing providersor they're going to programs
that are not culturallycompetent.
They do not have the experienceto work with first responders
and their intentions may be inthe best place, but if they're
missing that key understandingof not only the cultural aspects
(12:43):
of first responder professionsbut also the treatment
approaches that are proven to beeffective, modalities that are
beneficial to utilize in aclinical setting, and different
presentations of symptomsamongst first responders
compared to civilians I'll speakto depression, for example.
I mean we see typical, you know, standard, if you will
presentations of depression in acivilian could look very
(13:05):
different than they might lookin a first responder that is
working multiple jobs and takingon overtime and really good at
masking and appearing veryproductive, whereas that's not
really the hallmark signs ofdepression, which is more so,
you know sad and depressed moodand changing your you know
everyday activities that areenjoyable and some other
(13:25):
symptoms that if somebody is notculturally competent perhaps
they might miss.
And so you know, I'veunfortunately heard very
negative experiences of firstresponders that have accessed
care with providers that don'thave that experience and
unfortunately, sometimes thoseproviders have an adverse
reaction to stories that theyshare and then that places the
(13:46):
first responder back in thatresponder mode of now I have to
take care of my therapist andfurther isolates them into their
struggles of.
I can't even tell my therapistabout this, I can't tell anyone
about this, so I'm just going tokeep it to myself and continue
to struggle in silence.
And so really having theopportunity to be connected to a
provider that gets it whetherthey personally come from the
(14:07):
first responder profession,their family does or they have
done a ton of that work andeducation themselves to
understand the profession iscrucial to make sure that
somebody can feel they're in asafe place, they are with
someone that understands.
They don't have to spend theentire session explaining what
shift work is and what theirchain of command looks like and
their day-to-day.
(14:27):
They can skip all that part andthey can really just dive into
it with somebody that trulyunderstands, and there's an
incredible impact in being ableto do that.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I think the symptomology you hit the nail on
the head.
Dissociation is seen asdissociation identity disorder.
That's what the clinical peopleknow and there's nothing wrong
with that and I respect thatthey feel that way.
But if you dissociate in thesense that you're going to the
job and you're just going callto call and you're dissociating
from calls, that's your firstsign of either ptsd or
(14:58):
depression for a first responder.
So you don't go oh, he's did.
Sorry for all the clinicaljargon, but you got to be able
to pick up on those littlethings.
Or there's, there's anavoidance.
People like, oh, an avoidancethey don't want to talk about.
Or it's trauma, no, it'sanxiety, because they're afraid
of where it's going to fuckinggo.
And and people are like, well,that's different.
(15:18):
I'm like, yeah, dsm doesn'tknow everything and people
present differently.
And so I think my, our folksdefinitely show up.
And if I hear one more story ofa first responder who come in
who told me like the therapistwas crying or was unable to take
my story, I feel like I get soangry.
And most of them again, alltherapists out there listening
(15:40):
to me if you're culturallycompetent, great, I'm so happy.
If you're not, don't pretendyou are Because you're deserving
the first responders.
You didn't come into thisprofession to make money.
You came to this profession tohelp people and if you're lying,
you're deserving the firstresponders.
You didn't come into thisprofession to make money.
You came to this profession tohelp people and if you're lying,
you're deserving people.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
So that's my little PSA for the day and I will add
on to that.
I really love that you saidthat, because we do a couple of
trainings for clinicians and Ilead one of our ongoing
trainings that we have quarterly.
And one of the things that Ishare is if this is not for you,
that's okay.
And one of the things that Ishare is if this is not for you,
that's okay.
If you do not want to work withfirst responders, if you're not
comfortable with vulgarlanguage, if you're not
(16:20):
comfortable with cynicism, ifyou're not comfortable with
really graphic details of calls,please kind of look internally
and know that's not somethingyou're comfortable with and that
is perfectly okay because it'snot for everybody.
Just like being a childspecialty, having a subspecialty
of working with children orworking with couples or working
with a certain type of disorder,may not be for everyone there's
nothing wrong with that.
But it's really important toknow, kind of, what you are
(16:43):
advertising so that you arebringing in the clientele that
makes the most sense for thattherapeutic relationship.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I think the other part too, that I would say that
is very different with my firstresponders.
They'll make fun of me, and notin a bad way, right, and people
get upset about that in theother world, like they.
There's again I've mentionedthis on a podcast, so there's a
French maid joke that's beenmade in my group almost a year
ago that continues to likethey're waiting for me to show
(17:09):
up in a French maid joke that'sbeen made in my group almost a
year ago that continues to likethey're waiting for me to show
up in a French maid outfit oneday.
I'll do it, but I'll,definitely I'll put you on video
.
Just I'll put you, uh, offcamera.
They won't know you're thereand that's okay.
They already.
You already intended our group.
So you, you know how it is.
But but what I think?
Therapists who don't understanda cultural competency.
(17:31):
The other part, too, is ifthey're picking on you, they
love you.
If they're not talking to youor they're just telling you the
facts, you are fucked.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah, they don't trust you.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
So I think that that's the other part too.
You were mentioning about howdifferent they are.
They'll make a comment likethat but if I just took it for
face value, what?
Why can't they let go of thatcomment?
Then they're going to be like,okay, this guy can't take my
trauma, I can't even take a joke.
And that's again a very big,distinguishing experience with
(18:05):
first responders.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Absolutely, and they deserve to have a safe place
that they can completely puttheir walls down and completely
process whatever it is that theyneed to, whether it's related
to the job or not, and know thatthere's nothing that is within
them that is too broken toreceive support and help for or
too much to share with somebody.
And so, Steve, you and I haveworked very closely on
(18:28):
connecting a ton of firstresponders to you for outpatient
support, and that's somethingthat, for anyone listening here,
you know, whether you're in thestate of Massachusetts or
anywhere else in the country.
If you are looking for aconnection to one of these
vetted providers that has thecultural competency to work with
first responders and to reallyunderstand the job, feel free to
(18:48):
reach out to me.
Reach out to Steve if you'relocal to his area.
Understand the job.
Feel free to reach out to me.
Reach out to Steve If you'relocal to his area.
We certainly will get youconnected and want to be sure
that you have access to a safeplace, a safe person that you
can talk to, and that you canreally begin to work through
some of these challenges,because it is truly so important
and I think that that's theother part, too is sometimes I
work with people.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I actually gave your phone number to someone who is
in North Carolina, a firefighter, and I don't know if they reach
out or not.
That's not important for thepodcast, but the important thing
is we need to get thoseresources out and I want
competent people, and I thinkthat that's what you're talking
about, and I think it makes somuch more sense.
I'm the world doesn't revolvearound massachusetts, as so or
(19:32):
so I heard.
It doesn't.
No, that's what I heard, butthe point is, is that's?
That's why, like one of thethings that has changed, maybe
you can speak to that too.
I remember a time, not too longago in fact, I heard it this
year 2025 someone said to me oh,you share your resources to
(19:53):
everyone and like, why would Ikeep that to myself?
Like it's going to help me tohold on to this crap, but living
in these silos and living inthis isolation will never help a
first responder, firefighter,police, correctional staff it
doesn't really matter to mebecause, oh, I know all the
resources, but I'm only going totell two people.
I don't understand that.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Totally agree.
And what's the point of theresources if they're not being
utilized?
And why would it behoove us tonot share it with others and not
make sure that others haveaccess to those resources?
And so I know you and I havedone a ton of resource sharing
and that's something that wereally want to be sure that it
gets out there that individualsare aware of what is available
to them and have connection tothose clinicians that have
(20:36):
really done the work and havereally paved the way in their
you know respective states to bethose point of contacts for
those individuals and so happyto share anything in anyone's
area that would be beneficial tothem, whether it's with us or
not.
At the Center of Excellence,like, we really want to be sure
that individuals have optionsand know that there's various
different reasons that one mayreach out, and we just want to
(20:59):
be sure that they get connectedto whatever they're comfortable
with at the quickest possiblerate that we can.
And so that's a big aspect ofmy role is in that resource
connection and that educationabout kind of what's out there
and what can we do to you know,not only say, hey, here are
these providers, but I will kindof take it a step further and
not only say here are theproviders in your area, but I'll
(21:20):
call them and make sure thatthey're accepting new clients,
that the insurance makes sense,that they match clinically for
kind of what they're looking forand that it sounds like a good
fit for their practice, and takeas much of that preliminary
work as I can to make sure thatit removes any possible barrier
to making that appointment oraccessing that facility or
whatever that may be.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I think that that's the other part, too, that I
truly love about you and loveabout the IAFF center.
If I remember, it was Mollythat was before you.
Yes, remember, I would callMolly and she goes oh yeah,
here's 12 people you can referto, and it shocked me that
someone was giving away theseresources, and I want to give
the same tribute to you that youdo the same thing.
(22:02):
In fact, I know that, for thoseof you who caught episode 214,
if I remember correctly, thatbehind the badge and beyond,
that's a group that we have, butwe have about 27 or so vetted
people that we know that workwith first responders, and
Hannah's like do you know anyresources?
I'm like here's the link to theI don't know Excel spreadsheet,
(22:24):
whatever it is.
And you were like, oh, this isso helpful, I don't care how
they get the service.
And you were like, oh, this isso helpful, I don't care how
they get the service, whetherit's Aaron and Richard or Jen or
Lisa or Alexa I'm just namingthe people that are on the
podcast or John Doe or Jane Doe,what do I care, as long as they
get the services, I don't care.
And that's really what the IFFand the Center of Excellence has
(22:46):
really helped me get better atsharing all these resources, and
I've certainly called otherplaces that I will not mention
here who have been like.
Who are you?
I'm looking for support for myclient.
Can you freaking help me?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Yeah, no, I agree wholeheartedly, and it's just
important to connect individualswith those providers that are
out there doing the good work,and you know we want to get that
done and I know that you sharethat as well, steve and I know
we've worked collaboratively onthat and I really appreciate
that.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
And I think that we're looking at a long
collaboration, me and you.
And hopefully one day we'll goto the same conference.
I guess I got to look forconferences in Florida one day.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Well, when I'm in Massachusetts, I need to stop on
by.
My trips are just shorter thesedays with the baby at home.
Now I know that's why I'msaying maybe I got to go to
Florida in the next couple ofyears, then, as my kids are
grown yours are a little younger, your child's a little younger
so maybe we'll swap at somepoint locations.
But the more important part,too, is what I find with like
firefighters, like my firstexperience with firefighters
when I worked in a I didn't worktoo long but I did work in a
(23:55):
firehouse.
They would sit around the tableand talk, but sometimes that's
not enough and that's notagainst anyone in the fire
service, but they don't know howto reach out.
They're like oh well, you know,I talked to the LT, I talked to
the captain, I talked towhatever, but they need more
than that, but they need morethan that.
So you know, one of thequestions I always wonder is
(24:18):
what type of advice would yougive a firefighter that probably
needs to reach out in some way?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
shape or form Totally .
And I do want to speak to thepower of peer support because,
you know, sitting around thekitchen table and having that
peer support is such acornerstone that is so pivotal
for fire service members to havethat built-in support, that
shared understanding, thatbrotherhood, that sisterhood
that already exists sobeautifully in the fire service
and within the IFF, and then forthose that take a step further
(24:43):
and become certified in peersupport.
You all are making anincredible impact in the lives
of others and making it okay toreach out and ask for help.
But, as Steve said, you knowthere are circumstances where
clinical services are needed, ahigher level of care is needed.
You know someone maybe wouldbenefit from something that is
beyond peer support and it canbe really difficult to know kind
of what those next steps areand how to navigate that.
(25:05):
And I think it really does, youknow, specifically depend on
the circumstance in terms ofwhat exactly is going on.
If it's an emergent situation,perhaps connecting with a, with
a crisis line or, you know,getting somebody to safety as
soon as possible.
If it isn't, you know, knowingwhat your resources are.
You know myself, our IFF Centerof Excellence team nationwide
we are here to be able to kindof navigate what those next
(25:26):
steps look like.
As a confidential resource, youknow, I always say if somebody
calls me or a peer calls me, noone ever has to know that phone
call ever happened.
And I think that's reallyimportant because a lot of times
there's that hesitation Even ifI make the call, who's going to
find out that we're evenconnected, you know, if they
call into me or into ouradmissions team, even just for a
(25:47):
recommendation for a therapist,nobody that you know.
They don't want anybody to findout.
And that's one of the firstconversations that we have is
this is completely confidential,this is exclusively for you
guys to know.
This is safe, this isconfidential and this is
something that is really just inplace to be able to provide
that support.
So I would say, for those thatare in peer support and are kind
(26:08):
of on the forefront ofinitiating these conversations,
just having those resourcesavailable and knowing what they
are, having contact informationfor us, for Steve, if you're in
Massachusetts, for the Center ofExcellence, and knowing who
those people are to kind of gothrough the next steps, there's
different tools that can be usedto kind of help facilitate that
conversation too.
The stress continuum model canbe a really cool check-in tool
(26:31):
to kind of put around thekitchen table and kind of use it
as a touch point of hey, afterthat call, where are we, when
are you right now?
Where do you want to be?
What are the resources or thecoping skills or the self-care
that can bring you back to amore stabilized or a more
comfortable level?
And then kind of depending onwhere somebody is, just knowing
it is okay to reach out and askfor help.
(26:53):
It is a safe, confidentialresource for you.
And I would say one of thebiggest hesitations outside of
the confidentiality concern thatI hear is how will this impact
my career If I reach out and askfor help?
Well, certainly no one's goingto trust me, no one's going to
follow my leadership, no one isgoing to want me on the job
anymore.
(27:13):
But we see most commonly it isactually the opposite.
When individuals reach out andask for help, they come home
more whole.
They are able to work throughwhat they're struggling with.
That, if they don't, perhapswill lead to more maladaptive
coping strategies like substanceuse to numb out some traumatic
(27:34):
thoughts and feelings or to tryto sleep.
Anger and marital issues thatare kind of spewing out from
unresolved processing offeelings will be more resolved
for healthier homes andhealthier, more present home
lives if we undergo sometreatment or some processing.
A lot of times individuals, whenthey are really struggling,
(27:55):
they are showing up late to work, they're taking more sick time,
Maybe they're showing uphungover or disheveled or not
how they used to be, and so,although of course, that fear of
you know how will this impactmy job?
We certainly validate that andwe hear you.
But we definitely see whenindividuals do seek out help,
they come home to much longer,healthier, happier careers,
(28:17):
bodies, home lives and it'ssomething that can be really
beneficial for the long run.
I always say, if you're sweepingthings under the rug,
eventually the rug is going toget a really big mountain that
you're going to trip over oradding rocks into the backpack.
If I keep adding rocks in thebackpack, eventually the
backpack is going to be tooheavy to keep on holding.
And so there is relief outthere, there is support out
(28:39):
there, and we're ready to getyou connected to that as soon as
we can.
But it does take making thatcall or a peer supporting you
along that process, perhapsputting their hand on your
shoulder and making the call foryou while you're with them and
kind of being that supportiveperson along the way.
So there's no wrong way to getconnected with our team or to a
(28:59):
resource, but it does take, youknow, making that step and
taking that call.
And again, sometimes it can bethe peer's role to really make
sure that that's facilitated too.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
I appreciate you saying that about the peer
support.
I didn't want to seemderogatory at all about that.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
I really am a fan, oh I didn't think you were and I
don't want it to come off like Iwas trying to negate that.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I didn't feel.
But I just wanted to reiteratethat I'm a big fan of peer
support scissor, scissor,depending on what week.
And while you were talking,there's a few things that you
talked about.
The rug I smile.
So if you want to go to youtube, uh, it's because we've
exchanged on that idea so manytimes, so that's why it made me
smile.
I've heard that one before.
The other part too is, I youknow, a little quick idea for us
(29:43):
to maybe work on andcollaborate for the iff iff, I'm
more than happy to help ismaybe creating what they call in
re-entry the sequentialintercept model.
But I think the point of entryfor first responders or
firefighters would be important,because having a warm line is
different than the peer support.
The peer support's differentthan a scissor.
(30:03):
A wellness visit thank you formentioning those Big fan of
wellness visits.
But then you know there'sinpatient, there's outpatient
group, there's partial.
But being able to kind ofexplain all these things for
first responders, particularlyfirefighters in this case, might
be helpful, because I thinkit's so intimidating I mean, you
can speak to that too, but Iwas writing down can that be
(30:25):
intimidating for firefighters?
Because once you start talkingabout inpatient or even partial
hospital, which we know whatthat means, but when you don't
know what that means, oh sothey're going to just hold the
door.
For me, what does partialhospital mean Totally?
I mean, you can speak a littlebit of that fear you talked
about it over the phone andtalking to peers but there's
(30:45):
also not knowing this modelTotally.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
And I agree with you completely and that's why I
think having that transparencyand having that person to be
able to walk an individualthrough this and kind of look at
all those different options oflevels of care as you mentioned,
there's inpatient, partialhospitalization, intensive,
outpatient, outpatient All ofthat can sound super, super
clinical and very intimidating,and so to be able to kind of
walk through what exactly thatmeans and I'll speak to the IFF
(31:11):
Center of Excellence Programmingin particular the IFF created
this facility to make itsomething that is comfortable
for fire service members.
You mentioned earlier about ahospital system and you know
oftentimes four-wall hospital,very medical facilities and I'm
not saying you said this, I'llspeak to this are oftentimes not
the best fit for fire servicemembers for many reasons.
(31:31):
But let's just be honest, youguys are oftentimes running
patients to these facilities.
You work professionallyalongside these doctors and
nurses and other providers atthese hospitals.
It would be very intimidatingand not very private to be able
to receive care alongside them,not to mention just the
structure of an involuntaryhospital psychiatric unit in
(31:52):
general is very different fromwhat the IFF Center of
Excellence has created andfacilitated to be something that
is approachable and comfortablefor fire service members.
So, although those levels ofcare inpatient, partial
hospitalization, iop, as you hadmentioned are offered at the
Center of Excellence, I do wantto emphasize that it is not a
hospital program.
(32:12):
That's just what the levels ofcare are called and that just
determines how many hours perday and how many days per week
that somebody is in programmingand it just kind of depends on
how often they're seeing theirmedical provider, how often
they're in group, how often theyhave more free time, if you
will, to do the other wellnessand recreational activities.
And it helps to preparesomebody to discharge at the
lower level of care and go backhome and then resume outpatient
(32:35):
on an ongoing basis.
And so at the IFF Center ofExcellence all of those levels
of care are offered, but it ison a very different setting than
a hospital.
It is on 15 acres, it is.
There's a lot of autonomy toroam around, go on nature trails
and really engage in a ton ofmind, body, spirit type of
activities with a huge emphasison wellness physical wellness,
(32:56):
spiritual wellness, a ton ofpeer camaraderie through peer
support, peer led groups.
I talked to an alumni the otherday and they always mentioned
that the fire pit which was agathering almost every night
after clinical programming,which some may say a fire pit
and a treatment program.
Well, these are firefighters,so you know it is certainly
(33:17):
different than most otherfacilities, but that is a space
that no clinicians or staff areallowed out there.
It is only for the fire servicemembers and I hear from a ton
of alumni that is where most oftheir healing took place was, of
course, the clinicalprogramming of their day was
very intense and, you know, pushthem through towards healing
and recovery.
But having that time to justshare experiences with one
(33:40):
another, lean on the sharedexperiences of other first
responders, that validation fromeveryone really having that
wall to just completely comedown, unique circumstance of a
fire pit at a treatment facilityreally speaks to how different
the IFF Center of Excellence isfrom any other treatment
(34:00):
facility and what has been sobeneficial for so many
individuals.
And so I really thank you forbringing up kind of that
intimidation of what thoselevels of care sound like and
there's so many choices and howdo I know what to do and how to
navigate this.
So I will say, you know ourteam is happy to kind of walk
through and explain in as muchdetail as you need, kind of what
all that means prior to makingthe decision of how you want to
(34:23):
move forward.
And then I will also say wefocus very heavily on proactive
education and on our.
We have a webinar series wherewe host clinical trainings twice
a month, some of which reallygo into navigating the
behavioral healthcare system andwhat do all these acronyms mean
and what do these levels ofcare mean and what does my
insurance cover?
And more of those for thosethat are looking for maybe more
(34:44):
of a hands-off, you know,private if you will, information
seeking if they don't want tocall us, but we are here to help
walk you through that as well.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Well, I told you episode 218 wouldn't cover it,
so we got to go to 219.
So I hope you join us for thenext episode.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(35:25):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Well, hi everyone.
For those of you who are onYouTube, you are going to meet
Bobblehead Steve If.
For those of you who are not onYouTube, go check it out.
But welcome to episode 218.
If you haven't listened toepisode 217, it was the second
one with Ashley and DustinWright.
I hope you enjoy the interview.
It was really great.
We did a two-part and we'regoing to do probably a two-part
with this guest.
(01:02):
Hannah Elmore is someone Iconsider a friend, someone I've
known for about three years.
We were connected from ourformer colleague.
She took over for our colleagueand she is the clinical
outreach coordinator for theIAFF Center of Excellence.
Hannah works with firefightersthrough connections to
behavioral health resources,provides education and offers
(01:25):
support.
Hannah educates on behavioralhealth topics on fire service as
well as first respondercommunities, to departments,
peer teams as well as familiesand clinicians.
She receives her master'sdegree in social work from
Florida State University, goSeminoles, and is certified IAFF
peer support.
Great interview, I'm sure.
(01:47):
Like I said, I've known her fora long time.
She decided to come on, whichwas amazing.
So I think it's going to go fortwo episodes because it's going
to keep on talking about it,because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf 18 months practice with it
(02:16):
and I still enjoy it and itsaves me time and it saves me
energy.
Freeai takes your note, makes atrans and what you're talking
about a client just press record, and it does me energy.
Freedai takes your note, makesa transcript of what you're
talking with a client just pressrecord, and it does either
transcript, it does a subjectiveand an objective, with a letter
if needed for your client andfor whoever might need it.
So for $99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
(02:39):
worthwhile.
And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
You get 10% off.
More importantly, this is whatyou got to remember because you
are my audience that listens toResilience Development in Action
.
If you do listen to this andyou want to use freeai, put in
the code Steve50 in the promocode area, steve50, and you will
(03:01):
get $50 off in addition toeverything we just talked about.
Get freed from writing yournotes, get freed from even
writing your transcripts.
Use that to your advantage.
Freeai a great service.
Go to get freeai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney and I highly encourage you
(03:22):
to do so money, and I highlyencourage you to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 218.
I have what I consider a friendfrom very.
We're very far apartgeographically yet I think we
speak at least once a month, ifa little more than that,
actually about different things.
(03:42):
She's one of the best peopleI've met in the treatment for
first for firefightersparticularly, and who has been,
you know, calling me aboutcertain things.
We had a.
I was on vacation.
She gave me a nice little callabout something.
We'll keep that to ourselves,but it was like that's how our
relationship is, I think.
(04:02):
Sometimes she's not working andshe answers the phone call and
those are solid people you wantin your life.
Hannah Elmore, welcome toResilience Development in Action
.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Thank you, steve.
I'm so excited to be here andalways enjoy my time with you so
greatly, and looking forward tothis conversation today.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
You know right, pre-interview everyone knows I
do a pre-interview.
I was like geez, we're going onon 15 minutes.
I probably should press recordat some point.
We're talking about life.
We're talking about uh, no,both the center of excellence,
which I can't wait for you guysto hear more.
If you don't know what it is,you need to hear more, but more
(04:41):
of the human being, which Itruly appreciate you as a human
being.
Need to hear more, but more ofthe human being which I truly
appreciate you as a human being,hannah.
But obviously people might notknow who you are I do, but how
about you tell everyone herelistening to a little bit?
Speaker 3 (04:53):
more about yourself.
Thank you, Steve, and same toyou with how much I appreciate
the friendship that we've builtand just the professional
relationship that we have andthe conversations that we have.
That really better me as aperson too, up to as recent as
less than 15 minutes ago, whenyou were giving me some
incredible parenting advice andguidance as a new mom myself,
for those that don't know.
So thank you, Steve, and helloeveryone.
(05:14):
I'm excited to be here today.
My name is Hannah Elmore.
I'm the Senior ClinicalOutreach Coordinator for the IFF
Center of Excellence, which isthe International Association of
Firefighters Center ofExcellence for Behavioral Health
Treatment and Recovery, which Iknow we'll talk a little bit
more about in a bit.
Just to make sure that all ofyou all are aware of that
resource for those that are inthe fire service, my role on
this team is to operate tobasically connect first
(05:37):
responders with resources assoon as possible.
If there is a need that comesup or even a question about
what's out there and what is aresource that is a good fit for
what they're looking for, I wantto partner with you and be able
to help you find that resourceas soon as possible.
My background is clinical, so Ido have a background in clinical
social work.
I have my MSW in social workfrom Florida State University
(05:59):
and, if you know me, I am a hugeFlorida State Seminoles fan and
looking very forward tofootball season starting in just
a couple of weeks.
I do reside in the state ofFlorida.
I have most of my life and myclinical training is basically
rooted in health care.
I did receive a lot of myclinical training in different
health care settings, includingthe James A Haley Veterans
(06:20):
Hospital in Tampa, as well asJohns Hopkins All Children's
Hospital in St Petersburg andthen some various nonprofit
agencies as well.
I do not operate in a directpractice role in this capacity.
I am operating in more of aresource connection and an
education-based practice to makesure to not only connect
individuals with resources butprovide some of those proactive
(06:41):
tools to wellness and reallyshining a light on the topic of
behavioral health.
So it can be something that istangible, approachable and
something that individuals cankind of add to their tool belt
each and every day.
Now, in my intro I do also wantto touch on the fact that
working every day with fireservice members and not coming
from a fire service background,that is a huge responsibility on
me to educate myself and reallyarmor myself with understanding
(07:04):
how to work work with fireservice members better
understand the culture, betterunderstand the structure of
their career, better understandjust how they interact with each
other and what are some ofthose best practices to
treatment.
So I have gone through more ofthose formal trainings.
I am certified in IFF peersupport.
I'm certified in some variousclinician trainings in working
with firefighters and I've spenta ton of time at station houses
(07:27):
, around the kitchen table, onride-alongs and fire ops
experiences, really just doingwhat I can to learn and grow
each and every day.
So that's a little snapshot ofme.
On a personal level, I became amom last year and I have a
14-month-old daughter and trulythe center of my husband and I's
world and parenthood hascertainly changed me for the
absolute better and Steve and Ihave talked about that many of
(07:49):
the times, how wonderful it isto become a mom.
So that's a little personaltouch about me as well.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
And a wonderful mom at that, because the curiosity
and the wanting to remember theright things is so important for
parenthood.
But I'm sure that people didn'tjoin necessarily to hear about
our parenting skills.
I do have a background.
You talk about clinicalbackground.
Most people don't know, but mybackground is children and
family services.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Oh, I don't know.
I don't even know if I knewthat Steve.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
I think that most people, even my colleagues in
this building, they're likereally, I never see children or
family and I'm like, yeah, it'sa long story, but the bottom
line is I so love working withkids.
Unfortunately, I worked in aservice where parents weren't
always the best, so it reallydiscouraged me to work with
(08:41):
children.
So I decided to do somethingeasier.
I'm going to work with firstresponders, because that's the
easy part.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Easier, certainly different, but having that
background, really it's clear inthe way that you are so
validating, in the way that youtalk to people and really the
way that you connect with people.
So thank you for sharing that.
I wasn't aware of that.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Well, I figured you know, so you're sharing a little
bit.
I'll share about me.
This is, I think, the firsttime it's been said on this
podcast.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Love it Making history.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
You know you'll learn well.
You know my CBT background, youknow all that background.
But one of the things that Ilove about I love hearing is
that I know that you've listenedto this podcast before, but
what made you decide?
Like gee willikers, I reallywant to talk on Steve's podcast
because I don't know many peoplewho are like certainly not my
shiny personality that wins, butwanted to know why you want to
(09:35):
join the podcast.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
I feel like this podcast is such a wonderful
opportunity to connect withfirst responders and in their
families all over and just havecomfortable, proactive
conversations about behavioralhealth and kind of make it an
easier to approach type ofconversation, not too serious,
not too intimidating, butsomething that can be an easy
listen and really just help tonormalize and validate the
(09:58):
experiences of others.
And I've been on this team nowworking with IFF members for
three years and the dailylearning that I have gone
through just to learn from theexperiences of others and to
learn from peer support teamsand learn from those that are in
leadership when they kind ofstep in to help the behavioral
health of their members, andseeing the impact of reaching
(10:18):
out and asking for help has beenso amazing to witness.
And so any opportunity that Ican, you know, share anything
about contributing to theconversation about proactive
steps to wellness, I'm all in.
So I thought this could be areally cool opportunity and,
steve, you and I go back andforth so often.
I figured why not televise it,why not publicize it and then
(10:40):
and let others be witness to ourconversations as well?
So that was something I thoughtcould be beneficial to.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
I think it's also good to show that you know there
is is for me.
I will tell you the otherreason besides I, you know I
obviously love you, but I alsothink that what happened is that
I feel like people don'tunderstand that when you leave a
place like the center ofexcellence, there is a continuum
of care that exists, and thenthat you know clinicians and
(11:07):
people who work at the center ofexcellence, whether they're not
directly or not, I do knowHannah.
So when you say John Doe islooking for someone, I could
look to Hannah and say noopenings or yes, send them in,
and she follows through and sayhey, by the way, I want to make
sure that John Doe or Jane Doeand we're not gender bias here
is showing up.
(11:28):
There is a continuous of care,and so I think that that's one
of the things that ismisunderstood about these
centers.
Right, because I mean, you knowyou talked about your clinical
background, but I think thatpeople don't understand that
maybe while it is inpatient, itsometimes feels like outpatient,
and then there's a continuing.
It's not like all right, you'regone, see you later and sorry
(11:50):
for putting anyone down, butregular hospitals tend to be
that way, but you're not likethat.
So you know, knowing a littlemore about your clinical
background, is that what broughtyou to kind of that thought
process in regards to we need tofollow up with people and we
got to find what again, this issomething I feel like I plug
every single time on my podcastCulturally competent first
(12:12):
responder therapist, because Ithink that's key.
If you're not culturallycompetent, there's no point to
this.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Absolutely, and unfortunately, one of the
biggest barriers that I hearfrom individuals that have not
maybe received the help thatthey've reached out to get is
because they're seeing providersor they're going to programs
that are not culturallycompetent.
They do not have the experienceto work with first responders
and their intentions may be inthe best place, but if they're
missing that key understandingof not only the cultural aspects
(12:43):
of first responder professionsbut also the treatment
approaches that are proven to beeffective, modalities that are
beneficial to utilize in aclinical setting, and different
presentations of symptomsamongst first responders
compared to civilians I'll speakto depression, for example.
I mean we see typical, you know, standard, if you will
presentations of depression in acivilian could look very
(13:05):
different than they might lookin a first responder that is
working multiple jobs and takingon overtime and really good at
masking and appearing veryproductive, whereas that's not
really the hallmark signs ofdepression, which is more so,
you know sad and depressed moodand changing your you know
everyday activities that areenjoyable and some other
(13:25):
symptoms that if somebody is notculturally competent perhaps
they might miss.
And so you know, I'veunfortunately heard very
negative experiences of firstresponders that have accessed
care with providers that don'thave that experience and
unfortunately, sometimes thoseproviders have an adverse
reaction to stories that theyshare and then that places the
(13:46):
first responder back in thatresponder mode of now I have to
take care of my therapist andfurther isolates them into their
struggles of.
I can't even tell my therapistabout this, I can't tell anyone
about this, so I'm just going tokeep it to myself and continue
to struggle in silence.
And so really having theopportunity to be connected to a
provider that gets it whetherthey personally come from the
(14:07):
first responder profession,their family does or they have
done a ton of that work andeducation themselves to
understand the profession iscrucial to make sure that
somebody can feel they're in asafe place, they are with
someone that understands.
They don't have to spend theentire session explaining what
shift work is and what theirchain of command looks like and
their day-to-day.
(14:27):
They can skip all that part andthey can really just dive into
it with somebody that trulyunderstands, and there's an
incredible impact in being ableto do that.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
I think the symptomology you hit the nail on
the head.
Dissociation is seen asdissociation identity disorder.
That's what the clinical peopleknow and there's nothing wrong
with that and I respect thatthey feel that way.
But if you dissociate in thesense that you're going to the
job and you're just going callto call and you're dissociating
from calls, that's your firstsign of either ptsd or
(14:58):
depression for a first responder.
So you don't go oh, he's did.
Sorry for all the clinicaljargon, but you got to be able
to pick up on those littlethings.
Or there's, there's anavoidance.
People like, oh, an avoidancethey don't want to talk about.
Or it's trauma, no, it'sanxiety, because they're afraid
of where it's going to fuckinggo.
And and people are like, well,that's different.
(15:18):
I'm like, yeah, dsm doesn'tknow everything and people
present differently.
And so I think my, our folksdefinitely show up.
And if I hear one more story ofa first responder who come in
who told me like the therapistwas crying or was unable to take
my story, I feel like I get soangry.
And most of them again, alltherapists out there listening
(15:40):
to me if you're culturallycompetent, great, I'm so happy.
If you're not, don't pretendyou are Because you're deserving
the first responders.
You didn't come into thisprofession to make money.
You came to this profession tohelp people and if you're lying,
you're deserving the firstresponders.
You didn't come into thisprofession to make money.
You came to this profession tohelp people and if you're lying,
you're deserving people.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
So that's my little PSA for the day and I will add
on to that.
I really love that you saidthat, because we do a couple of
trainings for clinicians and Ilead one of our ongoing
trainings that we have quarterly.
And one of the things that Ishare is if this is not for you,
that's okay.
And one of the things that Ishare is if this is not for you,
that's okay.
If you do not want to work withfirst responders, if you're not
comfortable with vulgarlanguage, if you're not
(16:20):
comfortable with cynicism, ifyou're not comfortable with
really graphic details of calls,please kind of look internally
and know that's not somethingyou're comfortable with and that
is perfectly okay because it'snot for everybody.
Just like being a childspecialty, having a subspecialty
of working with children orworking with couples or working
with a certain type of disorder,may not be for everyone there's
nothing wrong with that.
But it's really important toknow, kind of, what you are
(16:43):
advertising so that you arebringing in the clientele that
makes the most sense for thattherapeutic relationship.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
I think the other part too, that I would say that
is very different with my firstresponders.
They'll make fun of me, and notin a bad way, right, and people
get upset about that in theother world, like they.
There's again I've mentionedthis on a podcast, so there's a
French maid joke that's beenmade in my group almost a year
ago that continues to likethey're waiting for me to show
(17:09):
up in a French maid joke that'sbeen made in my group almost a
year ago that continues to likethey're waiting for me to show
up in a French maid outfit oneday.
I'll do it, but I'll,definitely I'll put you on video
.
Just I'll put you, uh, offcamera.
They won't know you're thereand that's okay.
They already.
You already intended our group.
So you, you know how it is.
But but what I think?
Therapists who don't understanda cultural competency.
(17:31):
The other part, too, is ifthey're picking on you, they
love you.
If they're not talking to youor they're just telling you the
facts, you are fucked.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
Yeah, they don't trust you.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
So I think that that's the other part too.
You were mentioning about howdifferent they are.
They'll make a comment likethat but if I just took it for
face value, what?
Why can't they let go of thatcomment?
Then they're going to be like,okay, this guy can't take my
trauma, I can't even take a joke.
And that's again a very big,distinguishing experience with
(18:05):
first responders.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Absolutely, and they deserve to have a safe place
that they can completely puttheir walls down and completely
process whatever it is that theyneed to, whether it's related
to the job or not, and know thatthere's nothing that is within
them that is too broken toreceive support and help for or
too much to share with somebody.
And so, Steve, you and I haveworked very closely on
(18:28):
connecting a ton of firstresponders to you for outpatient
support, and that's somethingthat, for anyone listening here,
you know, whether you're in thestate of Massachusetts or
anywhere else in the country.
If you are looking for aconnection to one of these
vetted providers that has thecultural competency to work with
first responders and to reallyunderstand the job, feel free to
(18:48):
reach out to me.
Reach out to Steve if you'relocal to his area.
Understand the job.
Feel free to reach out to me.
Reach out to Steve If you'relocal to his area.
We certainly will get youconnected and want to be sure
that you have access to a safeplace, a safe person that you
can talk to, and that you canreally begin to work through
some of these challenges,because it is truly so important
and I think that that's theother part, too is sometimes I
work with people.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I actually gave your phone number to someone who is
in North Carolina, a firefighter, and I don't know if they reach
out or not.
That's not important for thepodcast, but the important thing
is we need to get thoseresources out and I want
competent people, and I thinkthat that's what you're talking
about, and I think it makes somuch more sense.
I'm the world doesn't revolvearound massachusetts, as so or
(19:32):
so I heard.
It doesn't.
No, that's what I heard, butthe point is, is that's?
That's why, like one of thethings that has changed, maybe
you can speak to that too.
I remember a time, not too longago in fact, I heard it this
year 2025 someone said to me oh,you share your resources to
(19:53):
everyone and like, why would Ikeep that to myself?
Like it's going to help me tohold on to this crap, but living
in these silos and living inthis isolation will never help a
first responder, firefighter,police, correctional staff it
doesn't really matter to mebecause, oh, I know all the
resources, but I'm only going totell two people.
I don't understand that.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
Totally agree.
And what's the point of theresources if they're not being
utilized?
And why would it behoove us tonot share it with others and not
make sure that others haveaccess to those resources?
And so I know you and I havedone a ton of resource sharing
and that's something that wereally want to be sure that it
gets out there that individualsare aware of what is available
to them and have connection tothose clinicians that have
(20:36):
really done the work and havereally paved the way in their
you know respective states to bethose point of contacts for
those individuals and so happyto share anything in anyone's
area that would be beneficial tothem, whether it's with us or
not.
At the Center of Excellence,like, we really want to be sure
that individuals have optionsand know that there's various
different reasons that one mayreach out, and we just want to
(20:59):
be sure that they get connectedto whatever they're comfortable
with at the quickest possiblerate that we can.
And so that's a big aspect ofmy role is in that resource
connection and that educationabout kind of what's out there
and what can we do to you know,not only say, hey, here are
these providers, but I will kindof take it a step further and
not only say here are theproviders in your area, but I'll
(21:20):
call them and make sure thatthey're accepting new clients,
that the insurance makes sense,that they match clinically for
kind of what they're looking forand that it sounds like a good
fit for their practice, and takeas much of that preliminary
work as I can to make sure thatit removes any possible barrier
to making that appointment oraccessing that facility or
whatever that may be.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
I think that that's the other part, too, that I
truly love about you and loveabout the IAFF center.
If I remember, it was Mollythat was before you.
Yes, remember, I would callMolly and she goes oh yeah,
here's 12 people you can referto, and it shocked me that
someone was giving away theseresources, and I want to give
the same tribute to you that youdo the same thing.
(22:02):
In fact, I know that, for thoseof you who caught episode 214,
if I remember correctly, thatbehind the badge and beyond,
that's a group that we have, butwe have about 27 or so vetted
people that we know that workwith first responders, and
Hannah's like do you know anyresources?
I'm like here's the link to theI don't know Excel spreadsheet,
(22:24):
whatever it is.
And you were like, oh, this isso helpful, I don't care how
they get the service.
And you were like, oh, this isso helpful, I don't care how
they get the service, whetherit's Aaron and Richard or Jen or
Lisa or Alexa I'm just namingthe people that are on the
podcast or John Doe or Jane Doe,what do I care, as long as they
get the services, I don't care.
And that's really what the IFFand the Center of Excellence has
(22:46):
really helped me get better atsharing all these resources, and
I've certainly called otherplaces that I will not mention
here who have been like.
Who are you?
I'm looking for support for myclient.
Can you freaking help me?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Yeah, no, I agree wholeheartedly, and it's just
important to connect individualswith those providers that are
out there doing the good work,and you know we want to get that
done and I know that you sharethat as well, steve and I know
we've worked collaboratively onthat and I really appreciate
that.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
And I think that we're looking at a long
collaboration, me and you.
And hopefully one day we'll goto the same conference.
I guess I got to look forconferences in Florida one day.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Well, when I'm in Massachusetts, I need to stop on
by.
My trips are just shorter thesedays with the baby at home.
Now I know that's why I'msaying maybe I got to go to
Florida in the next couple ofyears, then, as my kids are
grown yours are a little younger, your child's a little younger
so maybe we'll swap at somepoint locations.
But the more important part,too, is what I find with like
firefighters, like my firstexperience with firefighters
when I worked in a I didn't worktoo long but I did work in a
(23:55):
firehouse.
They would sit around the tableand talk, but sometimes that's
not enough and that's notagainst anyone in the fire
service, but they don't know howto reach out.
They're like oh well, you know,I talked to the LT, I talked to
the captain, I talked towhatever, but they need more
than that, but they need morethan that.
So you know, one of thequestions I always wonder is
(24:18):
what type of advice would yougive a firefighter that probably
needs to reach out in some way?
Speaker 3 (24:21):
shape or form Totally .
And I do want to speak to thepower of peer support because,
you know, sitting around thekitchen table and having that
peer support is such acornerstone that is so pivotal
for fire service members to havethat built-in support, that
shared understanding, thatbrotherhood, that sisterhood
that already exists sobeautifully in the fire service
and within the IFF, and then forthose that take a step further
(24:43):
and become certified in peersupport.
You all are making anincredible impact in the lives
of others and making it okay toreach out and ask for help.
But, as Steve said, you knowthere are circumstances where
clinical services are needed, ahigher level of care is needed.
You know someone maybe wouldbenefit from something that is
beyond peer support and it canbe really difficult to know kind
of what those next steps areand how to navigate that.
(25:05):
And I think it really does, youknow, specifically depend on
the circumstance in terms ofwhat exactly is going on.
If it's an emergent situation,perhaps connecting with a, with
a crisis line or, you know,getting somebody to safety as
soon as possible.
If it isn't, you know, knowingwhat your resources are.
You know myself, our IFF Centerof Excellence team nationwide
we are here to be able to kindof navigate what those next
(25:26):
steps look like.
As a confidential resource, youknow, I always say if somebody
calls me or a peer calls me, noone ever has to know that phone
call ever happened.
And I think that's reallyimportant because a lot of times
there's that hesitation Even ifI make the call, who's going to
find out that we're evenconnected, you know, if they
call into me or into ouradmissions team, even just for a
(25:47):
recommendation for a therapist,nobody that you know.
They don't want anybody to findout.
And that's one of the firstconversations that we have is
this is completely confidential,this is exclusively for you
guys to know.
This is safe, this isconfidential and this is
something that is really just inplace to be able to provide
that support.
So I would say, for those thatare in peer support and are kind
(26:08):
of on the forefront ofinitiating these conversations,
just having those resourcesavailable and knowing what they
are, having contact informationfor us, for Steve, if you're in
Massachusetts, for the Center ofExcellence, and knowing who
those people are to kind of gothrough the next steps, there's
different tools that can be usedto kind of help facilitate that
conversation too.
The stress continuum model canbe a really cool check-in tool
(26:31):
to kind of put around thekitchen table and kind of use it
as a touch point of hey, afterthat call, where are we, when
are you right now?
Where do you want to be?
What are the resources or thecoping skills or the self-care
that can bring you back to amore stabilized or a more
comfortable level?
And then kind of depending onwhere somebody is, just knowing
it is okay to reach out and askfor help.
(26:53):
It is a safe, confidentialresource for you.
And I would say one of thebiggest hesitations outside of
the confidentiality concern thatI hear is how will this impact
my career If I reach out and askfor help?
Well, certainly no one's goingto trust me, no one's going to
follow my leadership, no one isgoing to want me on the job
anymore.
(27:13):
But we see most commonly it isactually the opposite.
When individuals reach out andask for help, they come home
more whole.
They are able to work throughwhat they're struggling with.
That, if they don't, perhapswill lead to more maladaptive
coping strategies like substanceuse to numb out some traumatic
(27:34):
thoughts and feelings or to tryto sleep.
Anger and marital issues thatare kind of spewing out from
unresolved processing offeelings will be more resolved
for healthier homes andhealthier, more present home
lives if we undergo sometreatment or some processing.
A lot of times individuals, whenthey are really struggling,
(27:55):
they are showing up late to work, they're taking more sick time,
Maybe they're showing uphungover or disheveled or not
how they used to be, and so,although of course, that fear of
you know how will this impactmy job?
We certainly validate that andwe hear you.
But we definitely see whenindividuals do seek out help,
they come home to much longer,healthier, happier careers,
(28:17):
bodies, home lives and it'ssomething that can be really
beneficial for the long run.
I always say, if you're sweepingthings under the rug,
eventually the rug is going toget a really big mountain that
you're going to trip over oradding rocks into the backpack.
If I keep adding rocks in thebackpack, eventually the
backpack is going to be tooheavy to keep on holding.
And so there is relief outthere, there is support out
(28:39):
there, and we're ready to getyou connected to that as soon as
we can.
But it does take making thatcall or a peer supporting you
along that process, perhapsputting their hand on your
shoulder and making the call foryou while you're with them and
kind of being that supportiveperson along the way.
So there's no wrong way to getconnected with our team or to a
(28:59):
resource, but it does take, youknow, making that step and
taking that call.
And again, sometimes it can bethe peer's role to really make
sure that that's facilitated too.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
I appreciate you saying that about the peer
support.
I didn't want to seemderogatory at all about that.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
I really am a fan, oh I didn't think you were and I
don't want it to come off like Iwas trying to negate that.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
I didn't feel.
But I just wanted to reiteratethat I'm a big fan of peer
support scissor, scissor,depending on what week.
And while you were talking,there's a few things that you
talked about.
The rug I smile.
So if you want to go to youtube, uh, it's because we've
exchanged on that idea so manytimes, so that's why it made me
smile.
I've heard that one before.
The other part too is, I youknow, a little quick idea for us
(29:43):
to maybe work on andcollaborate for the iff iff, I'm
more than happy to help ismaybe creating what they call in
re-entry the sequentialintercept model.
But I think the point of entryfor first responders or
firefighters would be important,because having a warm line is
different than the peer support.
The peer support's differentthan a scissor.
(30:03):
A wellness visit thank you formentioning those Big fan of
wellness visits.
But then you know there'sinpatient, there's outpatient
group, there's partial.
But being able to kind ofexplain all these things for
first responders, particularlyfirefighters in this case, might
be helpful, because I thinkit's so intimidating I mean, you
can speak to that too, but Iwas writing down can that be
(30:25):
intimidating for firefighters?
Because once you start talkingabout inpatient or even partial
hospital, which we know whatthat means, but when you don't
know what that means, oh sothey're going to just hold the
door.
For me, what does partialhospital mean Totally?
I mean, you can speak a littlebit of that fear you talked
about it over the phone andtalking to peers but there's
(30:45):
also not knowing this modelTotally.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
And I agree with you completely and that's why I
think having that transparencyand having that person to be
able to walk an individualthrough this and kind of look at
all those different options oflevels of care as you mentioned,
there's inpatient, partialhospitalization, intensive,
outpatient, outpatient All ofthat can sound super, super
clinical and very intimidating,and so to be able to kind of
walk through what exactly thatmeans and I'll speak to the IFF
(31:11):
Center of Excellence Programmingin particular the IFF created
this facility to make itsomething that is comfortable
for fire service members.
You mentioned earlier about ahospital system and you know
oftentimes four-wall hospital,very medical facilities and I'm
not saying you said this, I'llspeak to this are oftentimes not
the best fit for fire servicemembers for many reasons.
(31:31):
But let's just be honest, youguys are oftentimes running
patients to these facilities.
You work professionallyalongside these doctors and
nurses and other providers atthese hospitals.
It would be very intimidatingand not very private to be able
to receive care alongside them,not to mention just the
structure of an involuntaryhospital psychiatric unit in
(31:52):
general is very different fromwhat the IFF Center of
Excellence has created andfacilitated to be something that
is approachable and comfortablefor fire service members.
So, although those levels ofcare inpatient, partial
hospitalization, iop, as you hadmentioned are offered at the
Center of Excellence, I do wantto emphasize that it is not a
hospital program.
(32:12):
That's just what the levels ofcare are called and that just
determines how many hours perday and how many days per week
that somebody is in programmingand it just kind of depends on
how often they're seeing theirmedical provider, how often
they're in group, how often theyhave more free time, if you
will, to do the other wellnessand recreational activities.
And it helps to preparesomebody to discharge at the
lower level of care and go backhome and then resume outpatient
(32:35):
on an ongoing basis.
And so at the IFF Center ofExcellence all of those levels
of care are offered, but it ison a very different setting than
a hospital.
It is on 15 acres, it is.
There's a lot of autonomy toroam around, go on nature trails
and really engage in a ton ofmind, body, spirit type of
activities with a huge emphasison wellness physical wellness,
(32:56):
spiritual wellness, a ton ofpeer camaraderie through peer
support, peer led groups.
I talked to an alumni the otherday and they always mentioned
that the fire pit which was agathering almost every night
after clinical programming,which some may say a fire pit
and a treatment program.
Well, these are firefighters,so you know it is certainly
(33:17):
different than most otherfacilities, but that is a space
that no clinicians or staff areallowed out there.
It is only for the fire servicemembers and I hear from a ton
of alumni that is where most oftheir healing took place was, of
course, the clinicalprogramming of their day was
very intense and, you know, pushthem through towards healing
and recovery.
But having that time to justshare experiences with one
(33:40):
another, lean on the sharedexperiences of other first
responders, that validation fromeveryone really having that
wall to just completely comedown, unique circumstance of a
fire pit at a treatment facilityreally speaks to how different
the IFF Center of Excellence isfrom any other treatment
(34:00):
facility and what has been sobeneficial for so many
individuals.
And so I really thank you forbringing up kind of that
intimidation of what thoselevels of care sound like and
there's so many choices and howdo I know what to do and how to
navigate this.
So I will say, you know ourteam is happy to kind of walk
through and explain in as muchdetail as you need, kind of what
all that means prior to makingthe decision of how you want to
(34:23):
move forward.
And then I will also say wefocus very heavily on proactive
education and on our.
We have a webinar series wherewe host clinical trainings twice
a month, some of which reallygo into navigating the
behavioral healthcare system andwhat do all these acronyms mean
and what do these levels ofcare mean and what does my
insurance cover?
And more of those for thosethat are looking for maybe more
(34:44):
of a hands-off, you know,private if you will, information
seeking if they don't want tocall us, but we are here to help
walk you through that as well.
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Well, I told you episode 218 wouldn't cover it,
so we got to go to 219.
So I hope you join us for thenext episode.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(35:25):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.