September 3, 2025 • 40 mins
Steve Bisson welcomes Bill Dwinnells, a licensed mental health counselor with over 30 years of experience and a background as an EMT, to discuss their joint venture, Gambit Counseling, and its innovative approach to first responder mental health.
The conversation explores why traditional mental health services often fall short for first responders. As Dwinnells eloquently explains, "First responders see a very unique slice of American life that the vast majority of people know absolutely nothing about," creating a profound disconnection that many carry with them. This disconnect frequently leads to challenges when seeking support – from therapists who visibly react with shock to their stories, to discomfort speaking openly in peer support settings.
Bisson and Dwinnells share their vision for the Fortress program, designed to complement existing crisis intervention systems with preventative wellness visits, resilience training, and a confidential support line. Unlike departmental resources, Gambit operates independently, allowing for truly confidential conversations about workplace challenges. As Dwinnells notes, "We can have very free, frank conversations about stuff and it all remains confidential."
The pair challenge common misconceptions about first responder mental health, revealing that trauma comprises less than half of what their clients typically discuss. More common are chronic stress, administrative conflicts, and what Bisson describes as "transference" – when a call triggers personal connections or memories. Throughout the episode, they emphasize that resilience isn't acquired through a single workshop but is "a daily practice" requiring ongoing attention.
For departments or individuals seeking support that truly understands first responder culture, Gambit Counseling offers a fresh approach focusing on prevention rather than just reaction. Visit gambitcounseling.com to learn how their services can help build sustainable resilience for those who protect our communities.
To reach Bill, go to www.billdwinnells.com/
For Gambit Counseling, go to gambitcounseling.com/
For more information on FRTRESS, email stevebissonlmhc@gmail.com or bdwinnells@gmail.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Voice over (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
, where strength meets strategyand courage to help you move
forward.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson get
(00:53):
freeai.
Steve Bisson (00:53):
You heard me talk about it.
I'm going to keep on talkingabout it because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf 18 months practice with it
and I still enjoy it and itsaves me time and it saves me
energy.
Freeai takes your note.
Your note makes a transcript ofwhat you're talking with a
client.
Just press record and it doeseither transcript, it does a
subjective and an objective,with a letter if needed for your
(01:14):
client and for whoever mightneed it.
So for $99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
worthwhile.
And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
You get 10% off.
More importantly, this is whatyou got to remember because you
are my audience that listens toresilience, development in
action.
If you do listen to this andyou want to use freeai, put in
(01:36):
the code Steve50 in the promocode area Steve50, and you will
get $50 off in addition toeverything we just talked about.
Get freed from writing yournotes, get freed from even
writing your transcripts.
Use that to your advantage.
Freeai a great service.
Go to get freeai and you willget one of the best services
(01:59):
that will save you time andmoney, and I highly encourage
you to do so will save you timeand money, and I highly
encourage you to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 220.
If you haven't listened toepisode 219, it was the second
part with Hannah Elmore Greatinterview Go back and listen to
it.
We talked about a lot of stuffIAFF stuff also but episode 220
(02:24):
will be with Bill Dwinnells.
Bill Dwinnells is a friend.
He's also a business partner.
We're working on a few thingstogether.
Bill has been in crisis workfor over 25 years.
I think he's probably more inlike the 30-year mark.
Bill is also someone who is alicensed mental health counselor
, been practicing for over 30years.
(02:45):
He was also an EMT on theambulance and we really are
excited about our project withGambit Counseling.
So here's the interview.
Bill Dwanels, welcome back toResilience Development in Action
.
Bill Dwinnells (02:56):
Thanks, Steve.
Once again, an absolutepleasure and honor to be here.
Steve Bisson (02:59):
Well, I do hope that you say that by the end of
the episode.
Bill Dwinnells (03:03):
Yes, I'm here without any kind of intermediary
.
Steve Bisson (03:08):
But no, I think that one of the things people
can go listen back to thoseepisodes that I mentioned, but
maybe it'd be good for you toreintroduce yourself, just so
people who don't want to golisten to those episodes because
sometimes it can be hard to dothat to just say a little bit
about yourself.
Bill Dwinnells (03:22):
Sure, my name's Bill Dwanels.
I'm a licensed mental healthcounselor both in Massachusetts
and now Vermont.
I've spent about 27 yearsworking in emergency psychiatric
services, so I've workedalongside a lot of police and
fire EMS departments providingpsychiatric consultation on
(03:48):
scene.
I was actually one of if not Ithink the first co-responder for
police departments in the state.
Since those programs have beenup and running, I've helped form
multiple co-responding programsand CIT programs the crisis
intervention teams for policedepartments over the years.
I think I'm up to about six orseven departments at this point
(04:12):
and I also have my own privatepractice that specializes in
helping people with depression,anxiety and building much like
the topic of your show todaybuilding resilience.
In addition to that, I haveworked in what now seems like a
previous life about 10 years asan EMT both for private and
(04:35):
municipal departments, as wellas a number of years on about
three different volunteer oncall fire departments.
Steve Bisson (04:45):
And all regionally , right Right around here in
Massachusetts, yeah, all withinMassachusetts.
And, for the record, anyone whoknows me knows I respect that.
But if you ever want to hear agood or bad thing I said about
Bill when we first introducedourselves to a chief, please
don't tell anyone Bill.
He'll force them to kind oflike write to me.
(05:11):
Really bad, but it wasdefinitely not professional and
that's on me.
Uh, leave it.
Leave a little bit of uh, nomystery here, please.
And, for the record, we were alltogether for my birthday a few
weeks ago and, uh, my girlfriendgave me probably as much shit
as he did, so works out in someways.
But one of the things thatwe've been doing, bill, we talk
about, you know, resiliencedevelopment in action.
(05:33):
I think when you were on it wasfinding your way through
therapy and we were talkinggenerally mental health, but now
this has become a lot moreabout resilience development in
action, helping first respondersin particular, and me and you
started.
You know I've talked about ithere and there, but me and Bill
started about three years ago asmall company that is finally
finding its footing calledGambit Counseling.
(05:55):
You want to talk a little bitabout that formation, how we got
together and all that fun stuff.
Bill Dwinnells (06:00):
Yeah, we got together and you know we had
enjoyed working together so muchI mean, we've worked a couple
of different jobs together atthis point and thought we really
had a very unique way ofproviding therapy for people.
I believe both of us have hadclients make comments like, hey,
you're not a typical therapistand, to be quite honest, we
(06:22):
pride ourselves on not being atypical therapist.
Um, and, to be quite honest, wepride ourselves on not being a
typical therapist.
You know we uh, you knowcertainly want to create a safe
space and build rapport, likeany therapist does, but we
really want to be real withpeople as well.
You know we want to.
We want them to come away fromthe sessions feeling like they
got something, not just a, not atherapist who just answered
(06:44):
questions with questions, butactually gave them some
practical skills to use ordevelop that can help them
really manage their own life.
I don't believe either one ofus ever tells people what to do
specifically or not typically.
Occasionally maybe we do ifthey need that kind of direction
(07:05):
.
But for the most part, you know, we really prided ourselves on
helping people learn to managetheir own lives, their own
emotions, you know, and reallyuse their logic to kind of
figure their way throughdifficulties.
Steve Bisson (07:24):
Right, and I think that what happens too is that
you know Bill talked about alittle bit of his experience
working with.
You know, when we first startedthe company, we were really
aiming to not only do that typeof stuff but also kind of like
form other people and you knowBill is as complete as an MBA
and we were trying to get peopleto come in and kind of like we
could educate them, help themdevelop, either through our
(07:46):
group practice at the time orhelp them develop skills so they
can go on their own.
But that's more often than Ican count to the model we're
kind of like aiming for at thispoint right.
Bill Dwinnells (07:58):
Yeah, I think we actually.
You know, like what they tellyou in all these marketing
classes is to really define yourniche.
You know, and I think you knowour first go out the door we
were trying to be a little toomany things for too many people.
You know, and you know, afterdiscussing with Steve, you know,
like, look what, you know, whatreally makes us feel good about
(08:21):
doing our jobs, what reallymakes us feel good about doing
our jobs.
And you know, we realized thatour passion is really helping
first responders.
And you know we started tofocus a little bit more, which
gradually became more and morefocusing on the first responder
community.
And you know some of the uniquechallenges and unique
(08:44):
challenges that members of thatcommunity face and how can we
best support them.
You know, when somethinghappens, and maybe even support
them before something happens,you know, helping them, give
them the education so that maybewe can stave off some of these
things.
Steve Bisson (09:00):
Right, and I think that it goes also.
You talk about style.
You know first responder, theunique challenges that they face
is one thing.
It's how you deliver themessage as a therapist.
That's also key and I thinkthat that's what we bring to the
table.
It's pretty unique and that'swhat we're trying to kind of
like convey.
If I had to ask you to describenot only about you know how do
(09:21):
you communicate with a firstresponder?
How has your experience been inthe therapeutic setting?
Not in the field where we gotwe got to be direct, honest and
get shit done but rather in atherapeutic setting.
How has been?
How would you describe thestyle that we have to develop?
Well, I I do.
Bill Dwinnells (09:37):
I would say it is still mostly fairly direct,
you know direct and offeringdifferent perspectives.
You know, because sometimes Ithink you know folks maybe,
especially first responders theyhave protocols in the head.
This is what I do in thissituation and for some of the
challenges that they come across, there's no protocol for it and
(09:58):
they can get very myopic on.
You know well, you, this iswhat I see other people do not
realizing that that may just bea facade that the other person's
putting on.
That's not really an effectiveway to handle whatever the
challenge is.
So I think we are still direct,but we're direct in a way that
we, you know, offer differentperspectives and like, well,
(10:21):
have you considered that?
You know this may be playinginto it and doing it in a way
that shows that having emotionsis normal, it's not weak.
You know, like I, I know we bothtalk a lot of, we use a lot of
like Buddhist and Stoic conceptsin what we do, not trying to
push either religion orphilosophy, but some of these
(10:42):
concepts form the basis of a lotof the types of therapy we
practice and helping people,especially first responders,
clear up that we don't have togo into these jobs and be these
emotionalist robots who feellike they can't be affected by
whatever it is we happen to comeon scene to, but realizing that
(11:05):
these things, these feelings,are going to come up and there
are effective ways to managethem.
Because I've had people comeinto session and say like well,
can you get rid of my anxiety?
Can you get me rid of my trauma?
Steve Bisson (11:19):
no, oh you, you're .
You're hiding the magic wand.
Is that what you're saying?
Bill Dwinnells (11:23):
yeah, I'm hiding the magic wand, I don't know
you got to pay extra for that,no, but you know, just reminding
people like you know, with yourtrauma, we can't change that.
The trauma happened, we can'tchange that.
You get anxious.
You know, if we were able toget rid of your emotions, you
wouldn't be human anymore.
And then, honestly, what goodof a therapist would we be?
(11:44):
The whole point is we're hereto help you manage the human
experience.
Well, first responders have avery unique perspective on the
human experience, so they needtherapists who can really
understand that perspective andgive them very good practical
skills for how to manage thoseexperiences.
Steve Bisson (12:02):
I think we all have stories right and for what
we've seen in our sessions, andone of the common themes that I
get from a lot of the firstresponders is I went to another
therapist and when I told themsome of the stories or some of
the stuff I've been through, youcan literally see them that the
therapist needs a few secondsbefore they can react to it.
(12:22):
You know, that's one of the onesI always remember is that
someone started crying in frontof me and one of them said I got
to take a couple of minutes.
And I mean those are notuncommon stories because first
responders are.
Again, you've heard me say thison the podcast.
Bill has heard me that say, butI like to repeat it First
responders see the 5% that the95% of the population does not
(12:46):
know about or doesn't want torecognize, and so you got to be
ready for that stuff.
And for me it's really aboutbeing able to take on that
baggage, not make it about youand not take on the emotional
strain for yourself and be therefor the client, which is not
like yeah, I made it sound likeit's fucking, like anyone can
fucking do it, but apparentlynot.
Bill Dwinnells (13:09):
Yeah, it's, it's really interesting.
I can remember when I was on adepartment we had a, an annual
dinner with all the families andstuff come in and they, they
did a slideshow and theslideshow was, uh, pictures of
scenes from the last year.
It was just one year, thecurrent year and all the
(13:31):
families were like that allhappened like in our town.
Like yeah, yeah, you know, it's, it's really amazing.
Like you said, um, firstresponders see a very unique
slice of american life that thevast majority of people know
absolutely nothing about and, tobe honest, they're not supposed
(13:53):
to.
Steve Bisson (13:54):
You know to a certain degree, because that's
what we only take care of itwell, I think that that's why
you know first responders doexist, so that you don't know
about the bad person, the crappyperson or whatever.
Yeah, we took care of it.
Maybe you'll read it in thepolice blog or channel two,
three, four, five, seven, twelve, whatever, but I think that
(14:16):
that's part of it.
Do you?
Do you know how?
You know, like we, we all dealwith it differently, but for me,
when, like, I'll go back to afunny story about a meeting we
had a couple of weeks ago whereme and Bill are not Mr Clipboard
when we talk to people, buthave you been, do you have any?
(14:36):
Like, like I talked about thetrauma and how some therapists
who are doesn't know about or intherapy a therapist would be
like, really that's a problem,stuff like that.
Bill Dwinnells (14:56):
Because I think that one of the things that you
know like I talked about havingprevious guests in the last two
episodes about couples andfacing, like getting home and
you know're you just maybe had abad day or whatever you don't
want to be sitting there talkingabout your feelings or you
don't want to be handed off thekids right away or what have you
(15:17):
, and I think sometimes it'sunderstanding that dynamic
outside of work that I thinkpeople don't comprehend, that
the first responders face yeah,I think making that transition
coming off shift and and youknow we used to call it
transitioning to regular life,you know can can be very
difficult to pay if if you had arough shift and and had some
(15:38):
bad scenes with negativeoutcomes, you know it especially
if you're coming back to apartner who's you know, kind of
already told you that stuff kindof freaks them out and they
don't really want to hear aboutit Not that they don't want to
be supportive, just like yousaid before, the therapists get
freaked out.
You know, sometimes our lovedones, they really don't want to
(16:00):
know what it is we did at worktoday because that would scare
them and the first responder hasto, you know, find a way to.
You know how do I make thatadjustment?
I, I think one of the biggestthings is the disconnect you
know there's.
There's a lot of disconnect,you know I I've I've heard a lot
(16:21):
of first responders say thatthey just feel different.
You know, and and they you knowsome of I with the popularity of
harry potter.
You know, and, and they youknow some of I with the pop
popularity of Harry Potter.
You know I heard some firstresponders calling non-first
responders the muggles.
Um, you know, they're like theaverage normal people.
They don't understand us.
Um, you know, and in a, in avery real sense that's.
(16:44):
That's very true.
You know, the world the firstresponder lives in is very
different than the regular world, so to speak, and I think
sometimes that leads to afeeling of disconnection that I
can't really be fully myself,because possibly fully myself
might scare or unnerve thepeople around me if I told them
(17:06):
what it is I do or what it is I,what it is I did today.
So I think, you know, I I'veseen, I've seen first responders
who are very active in thecoaching, softball and and you
know, and stuff like that, andyet still, you know, they seem
like they're like this reallygregarious person, but yet in
therapy they'll make commentsthat they just feel completely
(17:28):
disconnected from everybody Ithink they are disconnected
because you know it.
Steve Bisson (17:34):
You know like I, I always go back to one of the
first episodes I did with mybuddy jay.
When you go to a barbecue, ohyou're a cop, tell me your worst
story.
Or oh you're in, you're a paric, tell me what your worst story
is.
Why would I want to talk aboutthat at a picnic?
Bill Dwinnells (17:50):
Yeah, yeah, people always want to hear the
blood and gut stories or thehigh intensity stories.
But it's interesting because,as much as they want to hear
those stories, they neveractually want to hear how that
affected you and they don't wantto hear the story sometimes
once they hear it.
Right, yeah, yeah, sometimesthey regret the stories, if you
do tell them the story.
Steve Bisson (18:11):
Right.
So I think that you know.
Part of what you know, I thinkthat we came to with our Gambit
counseling is that we reallyrealized that there's great peer
support networks.
There absolutely is inMassachusetts, across the state,
across the country.
Absolutely is in Massachusetts,across the state, across the
country.
But one of the things that youknow and there's great CISM
teams and shout out the formerguest and soon to be a guest
(18:34):
again, aaron, who is going to betalking about some of that too
but one of the things that'smissing is that they don't have
preventive work.
You know, like a lot of thisstuff is reactionary as a police
officer and as a working on anambulance, working at a hospital
, working in the military, it'sa reactive type of situation and
one of the things that I knowme and you really found very
(18:56):
important once I went totraining, I think, or whatever
and I said, hey, bill, whatabout wellness and doing
preventative visits?
And that's part of our newermodel that we're working on.
You want to talk more about howyou perceive the wellness being
so important for those guys.
Bill Dwinnells (19:12):
Yeah, when we were talking about it, going
towards it as far as like, orattacking the problem as far as
wellness goes, it seems soobvious that part of me couldn't
believe we hadn't thought aboutit before.
But you know, instead of insteadof just reacting to what the
challenge is, you know what ifwe did something and started to
(19:34):
address the problems upstream,you know, if we were offering,
you know, not only therapy forwhen something happens, but if
we started offering educationcourses, training courses, that
would you know sort of you know,prep people for these are the
things that you might experienceand here are some practical
skills for how to, how to managethem.
(19:58):
You know as well as you knowmaybe coming in and doing
checkups, you know, not notnecessarily therapy, but
somebody who they can sit andtalk to, who you know kind of
understands the forces at playhere, and um can just kind of
point out and say, hey, maybe,um, maybe you could use some
(20:19):
assistance with this, that orthe other thing, depending upon
what the situation is, um, ormaybe this might help you
connect more with your spouse.
But the preventative things,kind of getting at the problem
upstream before it becomes aproblem, Maybe we can head some
of these things off.
I kind of liken it to the inthe fire service, the fire
(20:44):
prevention team.
Let's prevent the fire fromhappening in the first place,
you know, with some just basicroutine checks, and you know
routine checks and things thatwe monitor.
Steve Bisson (20:57):
So I think that's you know that's part of it, and
I think that what you're talkingabout, too is you know and
let's.
I want to be clear for thosewho are listening, and maybe on
a peer support team or a CISM,me and Bill are not trying to
talk about taking that away.
In fact, we consider it verycomplimentary to the work that
we're going to do.
Bill Dwinnells (21:16):
I think that's important to note, but yes, go
ahead, the debriefings and the,you know, the the kind of the
crisis response, becausesometimes things happen, they're
very overwhelming and thoseteams are great.
You know, having, you know, beenon uh, both of us have worked
(21:38):
similar type jobs.
They're fantastic at the sametime, you know, by helping, you
know, maybe with some trainingclasses that we've been throwing
around, we can make the folksmore resilient so that those
schisms can be even moreeffective, you know, should they
have to happen, you know, forlarge events, you know, because
(22:00):
a lot of these schism teams comein for, you know, big, dramatic
events.
But we also want to keep inmind that sometimes trauma, or
what's usually more commonlycalled compassion fatigue, is
kind of like death by a thousandpaper cuts.
It's never any one thing, it'smore the accumulation of things
(22:25):
you've gone to over.
You know some folks we'veworked with have a 20, 30, 40
year career.
You know they might have somestuff they want to talk about,
you know, and we want to makesure that we're able to give
them the skills and techniquesso that they can have that 30,
40 year career, you know, ifthat's what they so choose.
Steve Bisson (22:46):
Yeah, and I think that that's, you know, and one
of the things that I want toacknowledge.
While I just, you know, I saidschisms are important, peer
support is important, but noneof those are one size fit all
and again, they can't, can't fiteveryone, and I know that what
we talk about, these wellnessvisits and these trainings and
these things, we also realizethat that's not a one size fits
(23:08):
all, it's like not for everyone,and we also recognize that.
And you know, one of the thingsthat I know and again, correct
me if I'm wrong, but love tohear your point of view One of
the things that people in thefirst responder world really
don't like is go see this guy totalk.
Bill Dwinnells (23:24):
Yeah, that doesn't fly really fucking high
with the guys I know anyway yeah, no, I, you know, I, I think
you make a really good, uh point.
There's um, it seems like oneof the buzzwords everything
these days is on a spectrum,which, uh, you know, in some
ways kind of annoys me.
I, I, I don't like thatphrasing, and it's's true, you
(23:46):
know, everything is on aspectrum.
Some people may need thisresponse to whatever it is
that's going on.
Some people may need acompletely different response
and, you know, most people aresomewhere in the middle and I
(24:11):
think that's the gap, you know,or that's how I see it is.
That's the gap that we'retrying to close.
You know the SISMs, the peerspecialists, the, you know,
individual therapists all ofthat is great and different
people may need those things ormay need all of them at
different times.
We just kind of see this as onemore tool in the toolbox that
can be used again to support thepeople who protect us every day
.
Steve Bisson (24:28):
Yeah, and I think that that's where you know part
of what I see is like sometimesyou know what I've heard about
schisms.
They're very helpful, pleaseunderstand, there is no knock on
it but I also have heard peoplelike I don't want to talk in
front of my colleagues, I don'twant to tell them what's going
on, and so that schismunfortunately doesn't work for
that particular type of workerand for them to go well, go to
(24:52):
therapy is also kind of like no,I'm not doing anything against
my will.
And I think that the gap thatyou're talking about is the
wellness visit and also beingable to talk about a support
line line.
And I think that that's whereyou know, like the, the, the
advantage that me and Bill Ithink our program is going to be
, is that we're you know I'm not, we're not working with, let's
(25:16):
choose a Ashburnham PD justbecause we don't work with them
for now and I'm not picking onAshburnham, they're in
Massachusetts, but they can belike I don't want to talk to my
peer there.
This isn't team.
I didn't feel comfortabletalking in front of people, but
I am more than happy to call asupport line where I know.
You know, bill and Steve arenot affiliated per se to us and
(25:37):
we can have like a quickconversation as needed and if I
want to engage, I know Steve andBill.
They've trained us for somein-service and they're aware of
the wellness program.
It just fills a lot of the gapsthat exist in the program, like
in a lot of the need in thefirst responder world.
In my opinion.
Bill Dwinnells (25:59):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right and I
think one of the things that youwere getting at was trust.
Know, was trust.
You know that.
You know, you know a number ofthe departments that we've both
worked with, both as adepartment or individual members
of those departments.
You know, that's like the bigthing in the first responder
(26:20):
world.
I've seen, I've worked withfirst responders who are like oh
well, you know, do you likeyour partner?
No, I don't like him, I trusthim.
You know he'll do what he needsto do and he'll protect me.
You know we see this with a lotof military people.
Oh, these are the worst peoplein the world and I would
absolutely trust them with mylives, you know, not my wife,
(26:41):
but my life, you know.
So, so it's, it's, it's very,it's very unique, especially
when, um, you know, when we have, you know, some of these first
responders military, you knowcontacting us, saying like, well
, you know they're veryheartwarming and say, well, we
want to work with you.
You know we, you know, cause,we know you, we trust you.
(27:03):
You know, I had that experiencerecently where the department I
hadn't worked with in 10 yearscalled me up and they said, hey,
can we bend your ear about this.
I'm like, oh yeah, sure, noproblem.
And they were like, yeah, whenwe decided we wanted outside
opinion on this, we all thoughtof you and we were like we know
Bill, we trust Bill.
Let's see if Bill will answerour question.
(27:24):
Of course I will, to the bestof my ability.
So I think that's the otherthing that we're trying to do in
our program is to build thetrust.
You know we're not actuallyaffiliated with any specific
department or anything else.
We're completely independent.
So you know we can have veryfree, frank conversations about
(27:47):
stuff and you know it allremains confidential.
Steve Bisson (27:50):
Because I think the other part too, and part of
the conversations we can havethrough wellness visits or even
like the support line.
And let me be clear when wetalk about a support line, we're
not there to just let peoplefucking vent.
That's not the job we'relooking at.
That's why you have friends,that's why the job we're looking
at We'll let, that's why youhave friends, that's why you
have other people in your life.
(28:11):
We're not the venting.
But you know, like if you've hada major administration betrayal
, you may not want to talk toanyone at the department because
you don't know who your ally orwho isn't, and all that stuff.
And call me paranoid, call mewhatever you want.
The truth is that those thingshappen and at the end of the day
, having a support line, havinga wellness visit you know I
(28:37):
didn't feel supported by myLieutenant.
Well, me and Bill we're notgoing to go see the Lieutenant
and go.
We talked to their colleaguesand you know what Johnny said
about blah, blah, blah.
No, we don't give a shit, we'rejust there for them and giving
them the coping skills in orderto deal with that.
Again, not always therapy, butsometimes being able to do the
wellness visits just develops alot of coping skills and
resiliency.
Yes, let's plug the podcast alittle bit and develop that
(28:59):
resiliency.
Bill Dwinnells (29:00):
Yeah, I almost like to think of it as
resilience coaching.
Yes, a hundred percent.
We can take that as an, as youknow, one of the next buzzwords
that we'll use in society today.
(29:21):
Yes, 100% challenges, you know,and for different people it's
going to be different things,because people have different
resources available to them,both externally and internally.
How can we capitalize on whatyou have available, you know, to
hopefully rectify whatever thesituation is?
Steve Bisson (29:41):
And I think that that's the encompassing program
that we're creating throughGambit and what we call Fortress
right now and is really aboutgetting that wellness, that
support, that resiliency and thedevelopment of it, Because I
don't know about you, but Idevelop resiliency every day,
(30:01):
sometimes against my will,sometimes because I have to and
sometimes because I want to.
Bill Dwinnells (30:06):
It's definitely resilience.
Developing resiliency is not aclass you take and then you're
good.
It is like most other things,it's a daily practice.
Some days you're really good atit, Some days maybe not so much
.
That's okay.
Tomorrow's a new day.
We get a whole other day topractice, and it is, it's a
(30:28):
practice.
It we get a whole nother day topractice, you know, and it is,
it's a, it's a practice.
It's not a, it's not a one anddone skill, and I think that's
the.
That's the thing that peopleneed to remember, because we're
in a very especially the UnitedStates, especially today.
We seem to have a very, asociety very focused on instant
gratification.
It's like well, you know, Itook the class.
Why come I can't do thesethings perfectly?
(30:50):
No, that's not the way it works.
We have to practice thesethings, you know, each and every
day to get really good at it.
Steve Bisson (30:59):
Well, I think it's the joke that I make about my
degree when people ask me aboutwhat's my experience.
Oh, I read a book once, prettymuch have it covered after I
read that book and they alllaugh.
But I think that that's theattitude sometimes of like oh, I
went to one meeting aboutmental health resilience.
I'm just making it up here.
(31:20):
I'm just making it up here, andthey go like oh, I got it all
and I know how to handle it.
It's dynamic, it doesn't.
It changes with time and, as weboth know it's.
You know what stays in hereusually is either negative and
repetitive or both.
And learning to talk to someonelike us, who you know again,
never will I pretend I was afirst responder.
(31:41):
People know this listening tothis podcast and you know me,
bill.
I've never pretended I was, butI think that having someone who
has that experience I've beenthere next to X, y, z and I
don't want to use an example,but whatever, and you've been
there, you've been on calls, youare an EMT, you've done that
stuff and I think that havingthat experience and the mental
(32:02):
health part is really what webring to the game.
That is so much stronger thanfor people to understand us.
Not that people won't try tosee if we can handle their shit,
but that's just hard for thecourse were saying earlier about
(32:24):
like people take a course andthey think they got it.
Bill Dwinnells (32:25):
I mean, you know , between the two of us, we've
run into a number of therapistswho, very well meaning I don't
want to, you know, um, sayanything negative about them,
but they, they, they took acourse on first responder
culture and think theyunderstand it.
You know, um and again, I'm nottrying to shit on them or
anything, but there's a very bigdifference between taking what
(32:47):
is essentially a culturalcompetency about it versus you
know, oh, no, I can very clearlypicture the scene that, you
(33:08):
know you say you walked into,when you just say, oh, I was at
an nva, right, um, it's it'svery different and I think that
that's what it is.
Steve Bisson (33:18):
It's well-meaning people who you know and again,
I'm gonna shit them.
So if you don't, I will, it'smy show.
I can do whatever I want.
But, truthfully, one of thebiggest pet peeves I have is you
know a lot of therapists whoare not informed how to work
with first responders.
What's the first word?
They tell you oh, it's alltrauma.
Yeah, no, actually, no, noteven.
(33:47):
It's not even 50.
I'll be perfectly honest withyou.
Does it happen?
Of course, but do you talkabout trauma only with your
first responders?
I find that it's less than 50of the time yeah, no, not, not,
unless something really majorhappened.
Bill Dwinnells (33:59):
Um, you know there may be things that are
contributing to, you know,chronic stress or yeah, I guess
chronic stress would be the bestway to put it that you know may
come up.
Steve Bisson (34:13):
You know we usually end up spending a lot of
time, you know, talking aboutstuff like that, and I think
that what happens to me isyou'll get someone who goes oh,
I went to this call and remindedme of this call and I'm keeping
it vague purposefully and Imean, oh really, all I could see
is that boy, girl, child, adult, whatever's face, right, you
(34:39):
know.
And then never mind Again sorryfor putting therapy in here for
all you first responders, butthe transference stuff that we
have.
We go to a call that reminds usof a family member or our
spouses or what have you, andthat plays a factor too.
It's not trauma necessarily,but it is sometimes what
triggers a longer conversation.
Bill Dwinnells (34:59):
Yeah, I mean, we've had people show up to
scenes where you know the persongets on scene and the victim is
a child, their child's age.
Mm, hmm, you know, or you knowsomebody that reminds them of a
loved one or, as you said, itreminded me of this other thing
that happened and it's you know.
(35:21):
It can be.
It can be challenging,especially when we have to.
What do they call it in EMDRthe memory networks we start
uncovering the channels, how allthese things are connected.
I think that's important forpeople to know that sometimes,
like why is this coming out?
(35:43):
Something you're experiencing isgiving you the same feeling, so
your mind thinks it's the samething and it starts to equate it
really fast.
Because your mind really likesshortcuts.
Because I think somebody saidthe brain makes 34,000 decisions
a day and the only way it cando that is it comes up with its
(36:04):
own shortcuts.
So sometimes it makesconnections that if we really
sat and thought logically aboutit or a little less passionately
, we probably wouldn't makethose associations.
But your brain needs to makethem fast.
So these are the connections itmakes it fills in the gaps.
These are the connections itmakes it fills in the gaps.
(36:25):
One of the things I alwaysexplain to my clients is this is
why optical illusions work onus because our mind is filling
in what it thinks is supposed tobe there.
Steve Bisson (36:33):
Right.
That's why sometimes we havefalse memory.
And number two, as I point outonce in a while, there's no such
thing as objective Right.
But maybe that's too much ofour stoic philosophy, who knows?
Bill Dwinnells (36:45):
yeah, that's, yeah, could be, could be, yeah,
the whole.
What was the phrase I told youthe other day?
Life is opinion.
Life is just an opinion,correct?
Steve Bisson (36:55):
um, so it's kind of interesting well, I think
that you know, talking aboutthis fortress stuff between you
know the wellness visits, thetrainings and the support line,
we, we, we made sure that wenamed it properly and if you
want to know why, call us andwe'll know that.
But one of the things that I'mhoping is that different
departments here what we'retalking about here, it may be
(37:17):
interested in like getting aremore interested.
They want to know more aboutwhat we do.
How do you think you think how,like I know that you can
contact us, but what's the bestway to contact us?
You, bill, I mean I, I thinkabout my email, um and my phone
number and um, but I mean I'm Ican put in the show notes your
(37:37):
email and your phone number.
Bill Dwinnells (37:39):
Yeah, probably the email and the phone number.
Um, you know we also have ourwebsite, gambit Counseling.
That has the connections.
It is going to be going througha bit of a redo since we're
kind of rebranding ourselves, soyou know.
But you can definitely get bothof us through our website,
(37:59):
gambitcounselingcom, and yousaid you're going to put in the
show notes the our emailaddresses and phone numbers.
Uh, if anyone's interested,cause I know we also have our
own individual websites too.
So I don't know, do we want toplug those?
It's your, your time.
Sure, so we have.
You know, my, my personalwebsite is just my last name.
(38:21):
Uh, dwan spelledD-W-I-N-N-E-L-L-S-B-H, that's
boyandhenrycom.
That is for my personal privatepractice.
And Steve, yours, I believe, isstraight to the point therapy,
right?
Steve Bisson (38:40):
No, it's actually steve-bissoncom.
Oh, steve-bissoncom, and I washoping that you would actually
said Duanell's Bravo Hotel, butyou didn't say that, so I forgot
my, that would be better.
But no, I really encourage anyone of us, like they go to our
website.
You'll have an idea.
But also, if you want moredetails cause you know, because
(39:03):
we're giving you a 30 to 40minute presentation of it we'd
like to have a conversation withyou because we really feel like
this is going to fill a lot ofthe gaps that exist, and I think
that Bill and I are veryexperienced.
We have at least one otherperson that's available who is
also going to be working with usand is a female, so it's not
(39:24):
just men talking, there's womentoo, so there's a lot of
advantages to have us around.
So I just want to make surethat people can also think about
all that, plus look atinformation that we create.
Well, bill, I think I'm goingto see you Sunday, yep, our
usual spot, and if you want toknow where to find us and you
can always stop by again we'lldirect message me or bill.
(39:44):
You'll have his email andeverything else.
You can always join us onSundays and I really thank you
for your time, bill Tuckson.
Bill Dwinnells (39:52):
All right, Thanks a lot.
Steve Bisson (39:52):
Steve.
Well, this completes episodetwo.
20 build one else.
You know you're my friend, butI still say thank you.
Hope people inquire about ourprogram.
Go see Bill's website if youwant to talk to Bill and do
therapy with him.
But I really want to thank himand I will see you for episode
221.
Voice over (40:10):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(40:34):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
, where strength meets strategyand courage to help you move
forward.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson get
(00:53):
freeai.
Steve Bisson (00:53):
You heard me talk about it.
I'm going to keep on talkingabout it because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf 18 months practice with it
and I still enjoy it and itsaves me time and it saves me
energy.
Freeai takes your note.
Your note makes a transcript ofwhat you're talking with a
client.
Just press record and it doeseither transcript, it does a
subjective and an objective,with a letter if needed for your
(01:14):
client and for whoever mightneed it.
So for $99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
worthwhile.
And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
You get 10% off.
More importantly, this is whatyou got to remember because you
are my audience that listens toresilience, development in
action.
If you do listen to this andyou want to use freeai, put in
(01:36):
the code Steve50 in the promocode area Steve50, and you will
get $50 off in addition toeverything we just talked about.
Get freed from writing yournotes, get freed from even
writing your transcripts.
Use that to your advantage.
Freeai a great service.
Go to get freeai and you willget one of the best services
(01:59):
that will save you time andmoney, and I highly encourage
you to do so will save you timeand money, and I highly
encourage you to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 220.
If you haven't listened toepisode 219, it was the second
part with Hannah Elmore Greatinterview Go back and listen to
it.
We talked about a lot of stuffIAFF stuff also but episode 220
(02:24):
will be with Bill Dwinnells.
Bill Dwinnells is a friend.
He's also a business partner.
We're working on a few thingstogether.
Bill has been in crisis workfor over 25 years.
I think he's probably more inlike the 30-year mark.
Bill is also someone who is alicensed mental health counselor
, been practicing for over 30years.
(02:45):
He was also an EMT on theambulance and we really are
excited about our project withGambit Counseling.
So here's the interview.
Bill Dwanels, welcome back toResilience Development in Action
.
Bill Dwinnells (02:56):
Thanks, Steve.
Once again, an absolutepleasure and honor to be here.
Steve Bisson (02:59):
Well, I do hope that you say that by the end of
the episode.
Bill Dwinnells (03:03):
Yes, I'm here without any kind of intermediary
.
Steve Bisson (03:08):
But no, I think that one of the things people
can go listen back to thoseepisodes that I mentioned, but
maybe it'd be good for you toreintroduce yourself, just so
people who don't want to golisten to those episodes because
sometimes it can be hard to dothat to just say a little bit
about yourself.
Bill Dwinnells (03:22):
Sure, my name's Bill Dwanels.
I'm a licensed mental healthcounselor both in Massachusetts
and now Vermont.
I've spent about 27 yearsworking in emergency psychiatric
services, so I've workedalongside a lot of police and
fire EMS departments providingpsychiatric consultation on
(03:48):
scene.
I was actually one of if not Ithink the first co-responder for
police departments in the state.
Since those programs have beenup and running, I've helped form
multiple co-responding programsand CIT programs the crisis
intervention teams for policedepartments over the years.
I think I'm up to about six orseven departments at this point
(04:12):
and I also have my own privatepractice that specializes in
helping people with depression,anxiety and building much like
the topic of your show todaybuilding resilience.
In addition to that, I haveworked in what now seems like a
previous life about 10 years asan EMT both for private and
(04:35):
municipal departments, as wellas a number of years on about
three different volunteer oncall fire departments.
Steve Bisson (04:45):
And all regionally , right Right around here in
Massachusetts, yeah, all withinMassachusetts.
And, for the record, anyone whoknows me knows I respect that.
But if you ever want to hear agood or bad thing I said about
Bill when we first introducedourselves to a chief, please
don't tell anyone Bill.
He'll force them to kind oflike write to me.
(05:11):
Really bad, but it wasdefinitely not professional and
that's on me.
Uh, leave it.
Leave a little bit of uh, nomystery here, please.
And, for the record, we were alltogether for my birthday a few
weeks ago and, uh, my girlfriendgave me probably as much shit
as he did, so works out in someways.
But one of the things thatwe've been doing, bill, we talk
about, you know, resiliencedevelopment in action.
(05:33):
I think when you were on it wasfinding your way through
therapy and we were talkinggenerally mental health, but now
this has become a lot moreabout resilience development in
action, helping first respondersin particular, and me and you
started.
You know I've talked about ithere and there, but me and Bill
started about three years ago asmall company that is finally
finding its footing calledGambit Counseling.
(05:55):
You want to talk a little bitabout that formation, how we got
together and all that fun stuff.
Bill Dwinnells (06:00):
Yeah, we got together and you know we had
enjoyed working together so muchI mean, we've worked a couple
of different jobs together atthis point and thought we really
had a very unique way ofproviding therapy for people.
I believe both of us have hadclients make comments like, hey,
you're not a typical therapistand, to be quite honest, we
(06:22):
pride ourselves on not being atypical therapist.
Um, and, to be quite honest, wepride ourselves on not being a
typical therapist.
You know we uh, you knowcertainly want to create a safe
space and build rapport, likeany therapist does, but we
really want to be real withpeople as well.
You know we want to.
We want them to come away fromthe sessions feeling like they
got something, not just a, not atherapist who just answered
(06:44):
questions with questions, butactually gave them some
practical skills to use ordevelop that can help them
really manage their own life.
I don't believe either one ofus ever tells people what to do
specifically or not typically.
Occasionally maybe we do ifthey need that kind of direction
(07:05):
.
But for the most part, you know, we really prided ourselves on
helping people learn to managetheir own lives, their own
emotions, you know, and reallyuse their logic to kind of
figure their way throughdifficulties.
Steve Bisson (07:24):
Right, and I think that what happens too is that
you know Bill talked about alittle bit of his experience
working with.
You know, when we first startedthe company, we were really
aiming to not only do that typeof stuff but also kind of like
form other people and you knowBill is as complete as an MBA
and we were trying to get peopleto come in and kind of like we
could educate them, help themdevelop, either through our
(07:46):
group practice at the time orhelp them develop skills so they
can go on their own.
But that's more often than Ican count to the model we're
kind of like aiming for at thispoint right.
Bill Dwinnells (07:58):
Yeah, I think we actually.
You know, like what they tellyou in all these marketing
classes is to really define yourniche.
You know, and I think you knowour first go out the door we
were trying to be a little toomany things for too many people.
You know, and you know, afterdiscussing with Steve, you know,
like, look what, you know, whatreally makes us feel good about
(08:21):
doing our jobs, what reallymakes us feel good about doing
our jobs.
And you know, we realized thatour passion is really helping
first responders.
And you know we started tofocus a little bit more, which
gradually became more and morefocusing on the first responder
community.
And you know some of the uniquechallenges and unique
(08:44):
challenges that members of thatcommunity face and how can we
best support them.
You know, when somethinghappens, and maybe even support
them before something happens,you know, helping them, give
them the education so that maybewe can stave off some of these
things.
Steve Bisson (09:00):
Right, and I think that it goes also.
You talk about style.
You know first responder, theunique challenges that they face
is one thing.
It's how you deliver themessage as a therapist.
That's also key and I thinkthat that's what we bring to the
table.
It's pretty unique and that'swhat we're trying to kind of
like convey.
If I had to ask you to describenot only about you know how do
(09:21):
you communicate with a firstresponder?
How has your experience been inthe therapeutic setting?
Not in the field where we gotwe got to be direct, honest and
get shit done but rather in atherapeutic setting.
How has been?
How would you describe thestyle that we have to develop?
Well, I I do.
Bill Dwinnells (09:37):
I would say it is still mostly fairly direct,
you know direct and offeringdifferent perspectives.
You know, because sometimes Ithink you know folks maybe,
especially first responders theyhave protocols in the head.
This is what I do in thissituation and for some of the
challenges that they come across, there's no protocol for it and
(09:58):
they can get very myopic on.
You know well, you, this iswhat I see other people do not
realizing that that may just bea facade that the other person's
putting on.
That's not really an effectiveway to handle whatever the
challenge is.
So I think we are still direct,but we're direct in a way that
we, you know, offer differentperspectives and like, well,
(10:21):
have you considered that?
You know this may be playinginto it and doing it in a way
that shows that having emotionsis normal, it's not weak.
You know, like I, I know we bothtalk a lot of, we use a lot of
like Buddhist and Stoic conceptsin what we do, not trying to
push either religion orphilosophy, but some of these
(10:42):
concepts form the basis of a lotof the types of therapy we
practice and helping people,especially first responders,
clear up that we don't have togo into these jobs and be these
emotionalist robots who feellike they can't be affected by
whatever it is we happen to comeon scene to, but realizing that
(11:05):
these things, these feelings,are going to come up and there
are effective ways to managethem.
Because I've had people comeinto session and say like well,
can you get rid of my anxiety?
Can you get me rid of my trauma?
Steve Bisson (11:19):
no, oh you, you're .
You're hiding the magic wand.
Is that what you're saying?
Bill Dwinnells (11:23):
yeah, I'm hiding the magic wand, I don't know
you got to pay extra for that,no, but you know, just reminding
people like you know, with yourtrauma, we can't change that.
The trauma happened, we can'tchange that.
You get anxious.
You know, if we were able toget rid of your emotions, you
wouldn't be human anymore.
And then, honestly, what goodof a therapist would we be?
(11:44):
The whole point is we're hereto help you manage the human
experience.
Well, first responders have avery unique perspective on the
human experience, so they needtherapists who can really
understand that perspective andgive them very good practical
skills for how to manage thoseexperiences.
Steve Bisson (12:02):
I think we all have stories right and for what
we've seen in our sessions, andone of the common themes that I
get from a lot of the firstresponders is I went to another
therapist and when I told themsome of the stories or some of
the stuff I've been through, youcan literally see them that the
therapist needs a few secondsbefore they can react to it.
(12:22):
You know, that's one of the onesI always remember is that
someone started crying in frontof me and one of them said I got
to take a couple of minutes.
And I mean those are notuncommon stories because first
responders are.
Again, you've heard me say thison the podcast.
Bill has heard me that say, butI like to repeat it First
responders see the 5% that the95% of the population does not
(12:46):
know about or doesn't want torecognize, and so you got to be
ready for that stuff.
And for me it's really aboutbeing able to take on that
baggage, not make it about youand not take on the emotional
strain for yourself and be therefor the client, which is not
like yeah, I made it sound likeit's fucking, like anyone can
fucking do it, but apparentlynot.
Bill Dwinnells (13:09):
Yeah, it's, it's really interesting.
I can remember when I was on adepartment we had a, an annual
dinner with all the families andstuff come in and they, they
did a slideshow and theslideshow was, uh, pictures of
scenes from the last year.
It was just one year, thecurrent year and all the
(13:31):
families were like that allhappened like in our town.
Like yeah, yeah, you know, it's, it's really amazing.
Like you said, um, firstresponders see a very unique
slice of american life that thevast majority of people know
absolutely nothing about and, tobe honest, they're not supposed
(13:53):
to.
Steve Bisson (13:54):
You know to a certain degree, because that's
what we only take care of itwell, I think that that's why
you know first responders doexist, so that you don't know
about the bad person, the crappyperson or whatever.
Yeah, we took care of it.
Maybe you'll read it in thepolice blog or channel two,
three, four, five, seven, twelve, whatever, but I think that
(14:16):
that's part of it.
Do you?
Do you know how?
You know, like we, we all dealwith it differently, but for me,
when, like, I'll go back to afunny story about a meeting we
had a couple of weeks ago whereme and Bill are not Mr Clipboard
when we talk to people, buthave you been, do you have any?
(14:36):
Like, like I talked about thetrauma and how some therapists
who are doesn't know about or intherapy a therapist would be
like, really that's a problem,stuff like that.
Bill Dwinnells (14:56):
Because I think that one of the things that you
know like I talked about havingprevious guests in the last two
episodes about couples andfacing, like getting home and
you know're you just maybe had abad day or whatever you don't
want to be sitting there talkingabout your feelings or you
don't want to be handed off thekids right away or what have you
(15:17):
, and I think sometimes it'sunderstanding that dynamic
outside of work that I thinkpeople don't comprehend, that
the first responders face yeah,I think making that transition
coming off shift and and youknow we used to call it
transitioning to regular life,you know can can be very
difficult to pay if if you had arough shift and and had some
(15:38):
bad scenes with negativeoutcomes, you know it especially
if you're coming back to apartner who's you know, kind of
already told you that stuff kindof freaks them out and they
don't really want to hear aboutit Not that they don't want to
be supportive, just like yousaid before, the therapists get
freaked out.
You know, sometimes our lovedones, they really don't want to
(16:00):
know what it is we did at worktoday because that would scare
them and the first responder hasto, you know, find a way to.
You know how do I make thatadjustment?
I, I think one of the biggestthings is the disconnect you
know there's.
There's a lot of disconnect,you know I I've I've heard a lot
(16:21):
of first responders say thatthey just feel different.
You know, and and they you knowsome of I with the popularity of
harry potter.
You know, and, and they youknow some of I with the pop
popularity of Harry Potter.
You know I heard some firstresponders calling non-first
responders the muggles.
Um, you know, they're like theaverage normal people.
They don't understand us.
Um, you know, and in a, in avery real sense that's.
(16:44):
That's very true.
You know, the world the firstresponder lives in is very
different than the regular world, so to speak, and I think
sometimes that leads to afeeling of disconnection that I
can't really be fully myself,because possibly fully myself
might scare or unnerve thepeople around me if I told them
(17:06):
what it is I do or what it is I,what it is I did today.
So I think, you know, I I'veseen, I've seen first responders
who are very active in thecoaching, softball and and you
know, and stuff like that, andyet still, you know, they seem
like they're like this reallygregarious person, but yet in
therapy they'll make commentsthat they just feel completely
(17:28):
disconnected from everybody Ithink they are disconnected
because you know it.
Steve Bisson (17:34):
You know like I, I always go back to one of the
first episodes I did with mybuddy jay.
When you go to a barbecue, ohyou're a cop, tell me your worst
story.
Or oh you're in, you're a paric, tell me what your worst story
is.
Why would I want to talk aboutthat at a picnic?
Bill Dwinnells (17:50):
Yeah, yeah, people always want to hear the
blood and gut stories or thehigh intensity stories.
But it's interesting because,as much as they want to hear
those stories, they neveractually want to hear how that
affected you and they don't wantto hear the story sometimes
once they hear it.
Right, yeah, yeah, sometimesthey regret the stories, if you
do tell them the story.
Steve Bisson (18:11):
Right.
So I think that you know.
Part of what you know, I thinkthat we came to with our Gambit
counseling is that we reallyrealized that there's great peer
support networks.
There absolutely is inMassachusetts, across the state,
across the country.
Absolutely is in Massachusetts,across the state, across the
country.
But one of the things that youknow and there's great CISM
teams and shout out the formerguest and soon to be a guest
(18:34):
again, aaron, who is going to betalking about some of that too
but one of the things that'smissing is that they don't have
preventive work.
You know, like a lot of thisstuff is reactionary as a police
officer and as a working on anambulance, working at a hospital
, working in the military, it'sa reactive type of situation and
one of the things that I knowme and you really found very
(18:56):
important once I went totraining, I think, or whatever
and I said, hey, bill, whatabout wellness and doing
preventative visits?
And that's part of our newermodel that we're working on.
You want to talk more about howyou perceive the wellness being
so important for those guys.
Bill Dwinnells (19:12):
Yeah, when we were talking about it, going
towards it as far as like, orattacking the problem as far as
wellness goes, it seems soobvious that part of me couldn't
believe we hadn't thought aboutit before.
But you know, instead of insteadof just reacting to what the
challenge is, you know what ifwe did something and started to
(19:34):
address the problems upstream,you know, if we were offering,
you know, not only therapy forwhen something happens, but if
we started offering educationcourses, training courses, that
would you know sort of you know,prep people for these are the
things that you might experienceand here are some practical
skills for how to, how to managethem.
(19:58):
You know as well as you knowmaybe coming in and doing
checkups, you know, not notnecessarily therapy, but
somebody who they can sit andtalk to, who you know kind of
understands the forces at playhere, and um can just kind of
point out and say, hey, maybe,um, maybe you could use some
(20:19):
assistance with this, that orthe other thing, depending upon
what the situation is, um, ormaybe this might help you
connect more with your spouse.
But the preventative things,kind of getting at the problem
upstream before it becomes aproblem, Maybe we can head some
of these things off.
I kind of liken it to the inthe fire service, the fire
(20:44):
prevention team.
Let's prevent the fire fromhappening in the first place,
you know, with some just basicroutine checks, and you know
routine checks and things thatwe monitor.
Steve Bisson (20:57):
So I think that's you know that's part of it, and
I think that what you're talkingabout, too is you know and
let's.
I want to be clear for thosewho are listening, and maybe on
a peer support team or a CISM,me and Bill are not trying to
talk about taking that away.
In fact, we consider it verycomplimentary to the work that
we're going to do.
Bill Dwinnells (21:16):
I think that's important to note, but yes, go
ahead, the debriefings and the,you know, the the kind of the
crisis response, becausesometimes things happen, they're
very overwhelming and thoseteams are great.
You know, having, you know, beenon uh, both of us have worked
(21:38):
similar type jobs.
They're fantastic at the sametime, you know, by helping, you
know, maybe with some trainingclasses that we've been throwing
around, we can make the folksmore resilient so that those
schisms can be even moreeffective, you know, should they
have to happen, you know, forlarge events, you know, because
(22:00):
a lot of these schism teams comein for, you know, big, dramatic
events.
But we also want to keep inmind that sometimes trauma, or
what's usually more commonlycalled compassion fatigue, is
kind of like death by a thousandpaper cuts.
It's never any one thing, it'smore the accumulation of things
(22:25):
you've gone to over.
You know some folks we'veworked with have a 20, 30, 40
year career.
You know they might have somestuff they want to talk about,
you know, and we want to makesure that we're able to give
them the skills and techniquesso that they can have that 30,
40 year career, you know, ifthat's what they so choose.
Steve Bisson (22:46):
Yeah, and I think that that's, you know, and one
of the things that I want toacknowledge.
While I just, you know, I saidschisms are important, peer
support is important, but noneof those are one size fit all
and again, they can't, can't fiteveryone, and I know that what
we talk about, these wellnessvisits and these trainings and
these things, we also realizethat that's not a one size fits
(23:08):
all, it's like not for everyone,and we also recognize that.
And you know, one of the thingsthat I know and again, correct
me if I'm wrong, but love tohear your point of view One of
the things that people in thefirst responder world really
don't like is go see this guy totalk.
Bill Dwinnells (23:24):
Yeah, that doesn't fly really fucking high
with the guys I know anyway yeah, no, I, you know, I, I think
you make a really good, uh point.
There's um, it seems like oneof the buzzwords everything
these days is on a spectrum,which, uh, you know, in some
ways kind of annoys me.
I, I, I don't like thatphrasing, and it's's true, you
(23:46):
know, everything is on aspectrum.
Some people may need thisresponse to whatever it is
that's going on.
Some people may need acompletely different response
and, you know, most people aresomewhere in the middle and I
(24:11):
think that's the gap, you know,or that's how I see it is.
That's the gap that we'retrying to close.
You know the SISMs, the peerspecialists, the, you know,
individual therapists all ofthat is great and different
people may need those things ormay need all of them at
different times.
We just kind of see this as onemore tool in the toolbox that
can be used again to support thepeople who protect us every day
.
Steve Bisson (24:28):
Yeah, and I think that that's where you know part
of what I see is like sometimesyou know what I've heard about
schisms.
They're very helpful, pleaseunderstand, there is no knock on
it but I also have heard peoplelike I don't want to talk in
front of my colleagues, I don'twant to tell them what's going
on, and so that schismunfortunately doesn't work for
that particular type of workerand for them to go well, go to
(24:52):
therapy is also kind of like no,I'm not doing anything against
my will.
And I think that the gap thatyou're talking about is the
wellness visit and also beingable to talk about a support
line line.
And I think that that's whereyou know, like the, the, the
advantage that me and Bill Ithink our program is going to be
, is that we're you know I'm not, we're not working with, let's
(25:16):
choose a Ashburnham PD justbecause we don't work with them
for now and I'm not picking onAshburnham, they're in
Massachusetts, but they can belike I don't want to talk to my
peer there.
This isn't team.
I didn't feel comfortabletalking in front of people, but
I am more than happy to call asupport line where I know.
You know, bill and Steve arenot affiliated per se to us and
(25:37):
we can have like a quickconversation as needed and if I
want to engage, I know Steve andBill.
They've trained us for somein-service and they're aware of
the wellness program.
It just fills a lot of the gapsthat exist in the program, like
in a lot of the need in thefirst responder world.
In my opinion.
Bill Dwinnells (25:59):
Yeah, I think you're absolutely right and I
think one of the things that youwere getting at was trust.
Know, was trust.
You know that.
You know, you know a number ofthe departments that we've both
worked with, both as adepartment or individual members
of those departments.
You know, that's like the bigthing in the first responder
(26:20):
world.
I've seen, I've worked withfirst responders who are like oh
well, you know, do you likeyour partner?
No, I don't like him, I trusthim.
You know he'll do what he needsto do and he'll protect me.
You know we see this with a lotof military people.
Oh, these are the worst peoplein the world and I would
absolutely trust them with mylives, you know, not my wife,
(26:41):
but my life, you know.
So, so it's, it's, it's very,it's very unique, especially
when, um, you know, when we have, you know, some of these first
responders military, you knowcontacting us, saying like, well
, you know they're veryheartwarming and say, well, we
want to work with you.
You know we, you know, cause,we know you, we trust you.
(27:03):
You know, I had that experiencerecently where the department I
hadn't worked with in 10 yearscalled me up and they said, hey,
can we bend your ear about this.
I'm like, oh yeah, sure, noproblem.
And they were like, yeah, whenwe decided we wanted outside
opinion on this, we all thoughtof you and we were like we know
Bill, we trust Bill.
Let's see if Bill will answerour question.
(27:24):
Of course I will, to the bestof my ability.
So I think that's the otherthing that we're trying to do in
our program is to build thetrust.
You know we're not actuallyaffiliated with any specific
department or anything else.
We're completely independent.
So you know we can have veryfree, frank conversations about
(27:47):
stuff and you know it allremains confidential.
Steve Bisson (27:50):
Because I think the other part too, and part of
the conversations we can havethrough wellness visits or even
like the support line.
And let me be clear when wetalk about a support line, we're
not there to just let peoplefucking vent.
That's not the job we'relooking at.
That's why you have friends,that's why the job we're looking
at We'll let, that's why youhave friends, that's why you
have other people in your life.
(28:11):
We're not the venting.
But you know, like if you've hada major administration betrayal
, you may not want to talk toanyone at the department because
you don't know who your ally orwho isn't, and all that stuff.
And call me paranoid, call mewhatever you want.
The truth is that those thingshappen and at the end of the day
, having a support line, havinga wellness visit you know I
(28:37):
didn't feel supported by myLieutenant.
Well, me and Bill we're notgoing to go see the Lieutenant
and go.
We talked to their colleaguesand you know what Johnny said
about blah, blah, blah.
No, we don't give a shit, we'rejust there for them and giving
them the coping skills in orderto deal with that.
Again, not always therapy, butsometimes being able to do the
wellness visits just develops alot of coping skills and
resiliency.
Yes, let's plug the podcast alittle bit and develop that
(28:59):
resiliency.
Bill Dwinnells (29:00):
Yeah, I almost like to think of it as
resilience coaching.
Yes, a hundred percent.
We can take that as an, as youknow, one of the next buzzwords
that we'll use in society today.
(29:21):
Yes, 100% challenges, you know,and for different people it's
going to be different things,because people have different
resources available to them,both externally and internally.
How can we capitalize on whatyou have available, you know, to
hopefully rectify whatever thesituation is?
Steve Bisson (29:41):
And I think that that's the encompassing program
that we're creating throughGambit and what we call Fortress
right now and is really aboutgetting that wellness, that
support, that resiliency and thedevelopment of it, Because I
don't know about you, but Idevelop resiliency every day,
(30:01):
sometimes against my will,sometimes because I have to and
sometimes because I want to.
Bill Dwinnells (30:06):
It's definitely resilience.
Developing resiliency is not aclass you take and then you're
good.
It is like most other things,it's a daily practice.
Some days you're really good atit, Some days maybe not so much
.
That's okay.
Tomorrow's a new day.
We get a whole other day topractice, and it is, it's a
(30:28):
practice.
It we get a whole nother day topractice, you know, and it is,
it's a, it's a practice.
It's not a, it's not a one anddone skill, and I think that's
the.
That's the thing that peopleneed to remember, because we're
in a very especially the UnitedStates, especially today.
We seem to have a very, asociety very focused on instant
gratification.
It's like well, you know, Itook the class.
Why come I can't do thesethings perfectly?
(30:50):
No, that's not the way it works.
We have to practice thesethings, you know, each and every
day to get really good at it.
Steve Bisson (30:59):
Well, I think it's the joke that I make about my
degree when people ask me aboutwhat's my experience.
Oh, I read a book once, prettymuch have it covered after I
read that book and they alllaugh.
But I think that that's theattitude sometimes of like oh, I
went to one meeting aboutmental health resilience.
I'm just making it up here.
(31:20):
I'm just making it up here, andthey go like oh, I got it all
and I know how to handle it.
It's dynamic, it doesn't.
It changes with time and, as weboth know it's.
You know what stays in hereusually is either negative and
repetitive or both.
And learning to talk to someonelike us, who you know again,
never will I pretend I was afirst responder.
(31:41):
People know this listening tothis podcast and you know me,
bill.
I've never pretended I was, butI think that having someone who
has that experience I've beenthere next to X, y, z and I
don't want to use an example,but whatever, and you've been
there, you've been on calls, youare an EMT, you've done that
stuff and I think that havingthat experience and the mental
(32:02):
health part is really what webring to the game.
That is so much stronger thanfor people to understand us.
Not that people won't try tosee if we can handle their shit,
but that's just hard for thecourse were saying earlier about
(32:24):
like people take a course andthey think they got it.
Bill Dwinnells (32:25):
I mean, you know , between the two of us, we've
run into a number of therapistswho, very well meaning I don't
want to, you know, um, sayanything negative about them,
but they, they, they took acourse on first responder
culture and think theyunderstand it.
You know, um and again, I'm nottrying to shit on them or
anything, but there's a very bigdifference between taking what
(32:47):
is essentially a culturalcompetency about it versus you
know, oh, no, I can very clearlypicture the scene that, you
(33:08):
know you say you walked into,when you just say, oh, I was at
an nva, right, um, it's it'svery different and I think that
that's what it is.
Steve Bisson (33:18):
It's well-meaning people who you know and again,
I'm gonna shit them.
So if you don't, I will, it'smy show.
I can do whatever I want.
But, truthfully, one of thebiggest pet peeves I have is you
know a lot of therapists whoare not informed how to work
with first responders.
What's the first word?
They tell you oh, it's alltrauma.
Yeah, no, actually, no, noteven.
(33:47):
It's not even 50.
I'll be perfectly honest withyou.
Does it happen?
Of course, but do you talkabout trauma only with your
first responders?
I find that it's less than 50of the time yeah, no, not, not,
unless something really majorhappened.
Bill Dwinnells (33:59):
Um, you know there may be things that are
contributing to, you know,chronic stress or yeah, I guess
chronic stress would be the bestway to put it that you know may
come up.
Steve Bisson (34:13):
You know we usually end up spending a lot of
time, you know, talking aboutstuff like that, and I think
that what happens to me isyou'll get someone who goes oh,
I went to this call and remindedme of this call and I'm keeping
it vague purposefully and Imean, oh really, all I could see
is that boy, girl, child, adult, whatever's face, right, you
(34:39):
know.
And then never mind Again sorryfor putting therapy in here for
all you first responders, butthe transference stuff that we
have.
We go to a call that reminds usof a family member or our
spouses or what have you, andthat plays a factor too.
It's not trauma necessarily,but it is sometimes what
triggers a longer conversation.
Bill Dwinnells (34:59):
Yeah, I mean, we've had people show up to
scenes where you know the persongets on scene and the victim is
a child, their child's age.
Mm, hmm, you know, or you knowsomebody that reminds them of a
loved one or, as you said, itreminded me of this other thing
that happened and it's you know.
(35:21):
It can be.
It can be challenging,especially when we have to.
What do they call it in EMDRthe memory networks we start
uncovering the channels, how allthese things are connected.
I think that's important forpeople to know that sometimes,
like why is this coming out?
(35:43):
Something you're experiencing isgiving you the same feeling, so
your mind thinks it's the samething and it starts to equate it
really fast.
Because your mind really likesshortcuts.
Because I think somebody saidthe brain makes 34,000 decisions
a day and the only way it cando that is it comes up with its
(36:04):
own shortcuts.
So sometimes it makesconnections that if we really
sat and thought logically aboutit or a little less passionately
, we probably wouldn't makethose associations.
But your brain needs to makethem fast.
So these are the connections itmakes it fills in the gaps.
These are the connections itmakes it fills in the gaps.
(36:25):
One of the things I alwaysexplain to my clients is this is
why optical illusions work onus because our mind is filling
in what it thinks is supposed tobe there.
Steve Bisson (36:33):
Right.
That's why sometimes we havefalse memory.
And number two, as I point outonce in a while, there's no such
thing as objective Right.
But maybe that's too much ofour stoic philosophy, who knows?
Bill Dwinnells (36:45):
yeah, that's, yeah, could be, could be, yeah,
the whole.
What was the phrase I told youthe other day?
Life is opinion.
Life is just an opinion,correct?
Steve Bisson (36:55):
um, so it's kind of interesting well, I think
that you know, talking aboutthis fortress stuff between you
know the wellness visits, thetrainings and the support line,
we, we, we made sure that wenamed it properly and if you
want to know why, call us andwe'll know that.
But one of the things that I'mhoping is that different
departments here what we'retalking about here, it may be
(37:17):
interested in like getting aremore interested.
They want to know more aboutwhat we do.
How do you think you think how,like I know that you can
contact us, but what's the bestway to contact us?
You, bill, I mean I, I thinkabout my email, um and my phone
number and um, but I mean I'm Ican put in the show notes your
(37:37):
email and your phone number.
Bill Dwinnells (37:39):
Yeah, probably the email and the phone number.
Um, you know we also have ourwebsite, gambit Counseling.
That has the connections.
It is going to be going througha bit of a redo since we're
kind of rebranding ourselves, soyou know.
But you can definitely get bothof us through our website,
(37:59):
gambitcounselingcom, and yousaid you're going to put in the
show notes the our emailaddresses and phone numbers.
Uh, if anyone's interested,cause I know we also have our
own individual websites too.
So I don't know, do we want toplug those?
It's your, your time.
Sure, so we have.
You know, my, my personalwebsite is just my last name.
(38:21):
Uh, dwan spelledD-W-I-N-N-E-L-L-S-B-H, that's
boyandhenrycom.
That is for my personal privatepractice.
And Steve, yours, I believe, isstraight to the point therapy,
right?
Steve Bisson (38:40):
No, it's actually steve-bissoncom.
Oh, steve-bissoncom, and I washoping that you would actually
said Duanell's Bravo Hotel, butyou didn't say that, so I forgot
my, that would be better.
But no, I really encourage anyone of us, like they go to our
website.
You'll have an idea.
But also, if you want moredetails cause you know, because
(39:03):
we're giving you a 30 to 40minute presentation of it we'd
like to have a conversation withyou because we really feel like
this is going to fill a lot ofthe gaps that exist, and I think
that Bill and I are veryexperienced.
We have at least one otherperson that's available who is
also going to be working with usand is a female, so it's not
(39:24):
just men talking, there's womentoo, so there's a lot of
advantages to have us around.
So I just want to make surethat people can also think about
all that, plus look atinformation that we create.
Well, bill, I think I'm goingto see you Sunday, yep, our
usual spot, and if you want toknow where to find us and you
can always stop by again we'lldirect message me or bill.
(39:44):
You'll have his email andeverything else.
You can always join us onSundays and I really thank you
for your time, bill Tuckson.
Bill Dwinnells (39:52):
All right, Thanks a lot.
Steve Bisson (39:52):
Steve.
Well, this completes episodetwo.
20 build one else.
You know you're my friend, butI still say thank you.
Hope people inquire about ourprogram.
Go see Bill's website if youwant to talk to Bill and do
therapy with him.
But I really want to thank himand I will see you for episode
221.
Voice over (40:10):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(40:34):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com