September 10, 2025 • 37 mins
The weight of caring for others can become unbearable when we forget to care for ourselves. This powerful conversation with Deidre Gestrin, a licensed clinical professional counselor and certified health coach, takes us deep into the reality of burnout among first responders and helping professionals.
Deidre shares her profound personal journey through burnout - a harrowing experience that led her doctor to deliver the stark warning: "Your job is killing you." With remarkable candor, she reveals how her dedication to helping others in crisis led to working literally 24/7, developing physical health problems including arthritis in her mid-30s, and ultimately experiencing secondary traumatic stress so severe she couldn't tolerate family members standing behind her.
The discussion illuminates the science behind burnout - how chronic stress essentially shuts down our frontal cortex, impairing judgment and decision-making abilities critical for first responders. Steve and Deidre explore why those drawn to helping professions are particularly vulnerable to burnout, and why changing jobs often fails to solve the underlying issues.
What makes this episode uniquely valuable is the practical, realistic approach to recovery. Rather than offering platitudes, Deidre provides tangible strategies that work within the constraints of demanding professions. From establishing sleep hygiene routines that function even with irregular schedules to creating small, intentional habits that regulate the nervous system, listeners gain actionable tools for resilience.
Perhaps most compelling is Deidre's revelation about recovery timelines - the small shifts at three months, the ability to work again at six months, but the full two years before feeling completely restored. This honest assessment serves as both warning and hope for those navigating their own burnout journeys.
Connect with Deidre at abundantwellnessessentials.com to explore personalized strategies for overcoming burnout and reclaiming your purpose and wellbeing.
Her Social media presence:
https://www.youtube.com/@deidregestrin
https://www.linkedin.com/in/deidregestrin/
https://www.facebook.com/dgestrin/
https://www.instagram.com/dgestrin/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
Episode 221.
If you haven't listened toepisode 220, it was with my
buddy, Bill Dwinell's, so golisten to it.
We talked about Fortress, amongother things, which hopefully
that'll pique your interest andgo listen to it.
It's a new approach and addinganother element to how we can
support first responders on aregular basis.
(01:02):
But episode 221 was with DeidreGuestrin.
Deidre Guestrin is the founderof abundant wellness essential.
She is a certified health coachand a licensed clinical
professional counselor, lpc, whounderstands the challenges of
high-perform career.
She is based out of Ohio.
She's worked with private andgovernmental contracts, as well
as the DOC in Idaho departmentof corrections.
(01:24):
For those who don't know whatthat means, deidre is on a
mission to help high achievingprofessionals, as well as first
responders, conquer burnout andthrive in their careers in the
next few years.
So she reached out to me onFacebook and I can't wait to
hear her interview.
So here it is interview.
(01:52):
So here it is.
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to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcometo episode 221.
Very happy we can.
You know you connect withpeople in different ways and we
have a great group on Facebookfor first responders and
therapists and I had asked ifanyone was interested.
(03:21):
I know we had a couple of otherguests, but you know, one who
spoke up really quickly wasDeidre, and Deidre was really
excited to come on and I'm sohappy to have her on.
So, deidre Gestron, did I getthat right?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
You did.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
All right.
Welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, thanks, steve.
It's great to be here.
You know first responders arenear and dear to my heart.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Any particular reason .
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well, when I was a kid, my, my father and then both
my aunt and my uncle werevolunteer, so I lived in I live
in such a small community thatwhen I was a child it wasn't a
paid district, it was allvolunteer for first responders.
And so I just remember as a kid, right, if I was with my dad
(04:09):
and he'd get a call, he'd takeoff to town and I'd hang out in
the fire station until my momcame and got me, yeah, and so
that's kind of why it's near anddear to my heart and I know a
lot of people in the field andit's a it's a stressful job and
it takes, I think, a certainpersonality to sustain it.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
You know, that's a great place where we can go
later on, because it's also thetype of person that will go
above and beyond, to a point ofburnout, and that's what I think
we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
But maybe it's good to start off with something
simple like who are you, what doyou, what do you?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
you do everything else that goes with that, other
than have parents who work inthat field yes, so I have
actually been a licensed mentalhealth counselor, for I think
I'm going on 16 years and abouttwo years ago I added a health
and wellness coachingcertification to that.
Part of that was through my ownburnout journey and recovery
(05:05):
from that, because I trulybelieve to heal us as
individuals, we actually have tolook at both the mental health
and the physical healthcomponent, because it's so
intertwined.
And so I've been, you know, thelast, I would say, since COVID.
My therapy practice has becomelike 90% about burnout and
(05:27):
stress and then that's kind ofbetween that and my personal
journey and my own health issuesbecause of it led me to add the
coaching component, becauseit's so prevalent in our world
today and too many people arestruggling.
Too many people are leaving thecareers they feel passionate
about and they feel called toand they're leaving because of
(05:49):
burnout and it's the numbers arejust astronomical in every
field.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
If you expect me to argue with you, number one, you
know I'm going through my own.
You talk about 16 years.
I'm 26 years in doing therapyand I just turned 50 a few
months ago.
One of the things I'm thinkingabout right now is exactly that
and again, most of my clientsheard me say that privately to
them, so I don't care aboutsaying it here.
(06:16):
It's not about one client.
It's about the overall journeyof seeing 120 to 130 individual
sessions for the last 26 years.
That right now is just grindingthe hell out of me and I don't
want to burn out.
So I'm taking my time andlooking at my options.
I don't want to say I havewhich options I'm going to take
and all that fun stuff, but I amlooking at those and I'm trying
(06:39):
to be truthful to myselfinstead of burning out and
wanting to fuck this fieldbecause that's field Cause
that's definitely not where Iwant to be.
But uh, we all have our ownjourneys with burnout.
I'm, I'm.
I'm assuming there's a.
There's a story here.
Deidre's going to tell me oh,here's my story.
So I hope that you can sharethat with, because I think it's
always important.
One of the things about firstresponders is they want that
(07:02):
personalization.
Oh, that's why you know a lotabout this shit and I think that
that's what they like the most.
So you know.
There's so many things youtalked about, but that's the
first question I have is what'syour personal experience with
burnout?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yeah, and I'm happy to absolutely share that because
it's it's a big, significantpiece to why I'm on this journey
Right and why I'm here todayand in my entire career not just
as a counselor but prior I'veactually hit burnout three very
distinct times in my entirecareer, but it was this third
(07:38):
one that really had the mostimpact on me and that I want to
share a little bit about.
And part of that is because inmy recovery my burnout actually
became secondary traumaticstress and there's a lot of
research out there that willkind of put those in the same
bucket.
But I don't see them that way.
I see one as one leads to theother.
(07:59):
And so little bit of backgroundon kind of my last round of
burnout.
I was working community health,I was program manager but still
seeing clients.
So I was doing right multipleroles.
We managed our own crisis line,which means people if they were
(08:20):
at the ER because they werefeeling suicidal, we would get
called to go in and assess them,potentially find placement.
Well, as a supervisor, I had tosupport that as well, and I was
helping some residentialprograms right.
But what happened was when Isay I was working 24-7, like I
am literal, steve.
I was working 24-7.
(08:40):
I was doing my day job.
If the crisis worker had threepeople they were trying to
assess and I was their backup, Ihad to go in and help them at
night.
Or we had some kids runningfrom a residential program.
So, trying to maintain a goodworking relationship with our
law enforcement, what did we do?
We'd go out and help, look forthem, and so I really did work
(09:02):
24-7 for a while.
Well, what happened was I wasn'tsleeping and it was starting to
take such a toll on my physicalhealth that in my mid 30s I
developed arthritis and I'm likeI'm too young for this.
I went to a doctor visit whichI see, a doctor who does more
functional medicine, right, sopreventative, let's get to the
(09:23):
root cause.
And if I was to quote him, hesaid Deidre, your job is killing
you.
If you don't make a change, Ican't help you.
That was the biggest light bulbmoment in my journey, because I
was so tired, I was very cranky, I didn't care what I said to
my supervisor, that I knewsomething had to change Right,
(09:44):
and so, thankfully, I had somevery supportive colleagues that
I worked with and one saidDeidre, take FMLA, you have it
Well.
Steve, I don't know if you knowthis, but the World Health
Organization actually has anofficial definition for burnout
and there's more people todaywho are taking leave of absence
(10:04):
and FMLA for burnout than theyare for physical health reasons,
for chronic illness More peoplebecause of burnout.
But in my journey I did that forthree months, tried to figure
out okay, what do I need?
Change jobs?
Because we all think, oh, I'llchange jobs and then things will
be fine.
No, no, not the case, becausewhere I went to it was very much
(10:27):
played down the issues thefacility had and the doors
closed six months after I gotthere.
I had to stay for two moremonths to finalize help clean up
.
So I moved states for a jobthat I thought would help lasted
eight months.
But that's actually theblessing to where my recovery
(10:50):
process started, because thatput me on unemployment, which
meant I could sit back and focuson myself for six months, not
worry about finances, and trulygo OK.
Why did I allow this for thethird time, three times in right
?
Why did I allow this for thethird time three times in right?
20 plus years?
That is that's too many timesin my opinion.
Once is too much.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I was going to argue that point, but thank you for
doing that.
But I think that what you know,there's, there's, there's like
what I like fascinating guestsand such you.
You fall in that category.
I've got like five notes I wantto bring up, but I think a good
continuance here is I'm happyyou didn't burn out, because it
sounds like you're bringing alot of good stuff to the world,
so so happy that you took careof us yourself and take us up of
(11:35):
us now.
You know the first responderworld.
I'm not the first responder,but I do work.
Number two I work in socialservices and I I worked on on
the actual crisis team while Iwas working in the residential
program and the supportedhousing program.
So there's a lot of what yousaid really resonated with me,
because you know it's like apassion, but when your passion
(11:58):
turns into obligation it changesand I think and I think that's
where you know I had to take astep back myself.
I'm lucky I never got toburnout.
I hope I never get there, but Icertainly had to take a step
back and work less and feelguilty about it, and I'm sure
that you know all the feelings.
But I guess the question.
The natural question that comeswith everything we just talked
(12:19):
about is, if I'm a policeofficer, I'm a firefighter, I'm
a paramedic, I'm an EMT, an ERnurse, it can't just be like you
know what, I'm going to changemy job right now.
Thank you, because I'm surethere's someone yelling at the
radio saying, oh yeah, I canwalk away from being an officer.
What the hell is she talkingabout?
So how do you talk about thatwith a journey, with first
(12:41):
responders, particularly inregards to burnout and
prevention, and all that funstuff?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I think it's important to you know, explore
that a job change doesn'tnecessarily fix it Like it can
help in the moment.
But if we're honest, right whenwe, if we look back at who gets
into the field of firstresponding or any helping
profession because that's reallywhat you and I also do, steve,
(13:05):
and we get into it because wecare, we want to help people,
and that takes a certainpersonality, right, and that's
not an easy thing to just walkaway from.
So you can walk away, butyou're going to probably feel
like a piece of you is missing,right, and so instead you have
to explore okay, what changescan I make so I can once again
(13:29):
be passionate about what I'mdoing?
Look forward to what I'm doing,because I do think we're going
to have ups and downs,regardless symptoms or burnout,
right, that physical, because Ithink I mentioned with me I had
the extreme physical symptoms,started developing diabetic
(13:49):
numbers.
Mine went into trauma that Ididn't even like my family
standing behind me.
I had to sit with my wall, myback against the wall at a
family function, and so we haveto really get back to why am I
doing this?
We need to explore back at ourpurpose but then look at what
can I do individually.
But I also want to recognize wehave many fields that have we
(14:13):
might call them broken systems.
Healthcare is a broken system,right.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
That's an understatement, but anyway.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
It is, and so I don't want to discount, like there's
things organizations andcompanies also need to implement
, which is another part of kindof my mission but there are
absolutely things that we can doindividually.
But we have to kind of askourselves what's important.
We have to stay focused on that.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
And I think that what you just talked about is
exactly.
You know, one of the thingsI've seen too is that you said
that you know it goes intophysical aspects.
Is that you said that you knowit goes into physical aspects.
You know, I do have a few firstresponders that I work with
that have developed, like youknow for lack of a better word
autoimmune issues from beingburnt out.
And you know the medicalprofession is not too happy when
(15:03):
we say, well, it's asymptomology of the burnout, not
that they have an autoimmuneissue, they get upset with that.
And that's what I mean aboutthe system being broken because
someone somehow physical healthis above mental health.
I don't understand.
But how do we kind of like tellpeople like chill, I mean, you
know, like to me, like it's thatold saying right, has anyone
ever calmed down by being told,hey, calm down.
(15:23):
Oh, geez, that's a great idea,let me just calm down.
No, no one's ever done that.
So saying, yeah, you know whatChill, or you're going to burn
out.
I know that in the helpingprofession that I work in, if
you would ever told that to meand be like, okay, thank you,
and I would have been like yeah,no, until I was probably broken
down completely.
But anyway, how do we getpeople to like slow down?
(15:45):
Because I think the otheraspect that people seem to don't
understand is that if you'renot doing good within any
organization, but particularlyin the first responders, you
only have two or three guys onwith you.
Fire and police is typicallylike that you not doing well is
affecting two or three otherpeople, including their safety
at times.
So I think that that's theother part too is like how do we
(16:06):
tell people to chill and how dowe explain a little bit of the
effect on the team?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So several of the things that Ireally come back to when I work
with individuals is we have toget back to a few basics.
So we have to get back tothings that regulate our nervous
system, right.
So instead of telling somebodyto just chill out, I might tell
them take a five minute breakand go for a walk and take some
(16:31):
deep breaths right, get thatnervous system to calm down,
because what people are notrealizing is any form of stress.
Our body responds as if we're insurvival mode.
It is the exact same mechanism,right, and so the higher and
the longer we're in that stateof stress, our body changes
where that energy goes, which iswhy chronic illness or
autoimmune diseases can develop,because our body's not
(16:53):
functioning normally.
It's not digesting food the wayit should be, and so anytime
you can do things like take atwo minute break and go walk,
get a little movement right, getsome of that deep breathing.
So you're not holding yourbreath, because a lot of us hold
our breath when we're stressed.
It's all those things.
That's going to help in themoment, because, you're
absolutely correct, if I'mstressed, I'm going to react a
(17:17):
little more emotionally, whichmeans the other person's not
going to handle that.
Well, right.
Right, they're gonna be likewait, wait, what's going on?
And so then they're going tostart being on edge around me,
right, and going should I saysomething, or is she going to
react?
And that's where it starts toaffect those around us because
they're like, okay, I'm justgoing to stay away.
But that doesn't work if youhave to work as a team and
(17:39):
there's not many of you.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
And I would agree with you 100%.
Let me add a question slash myobservation with you a hundred
percent.
Let me add a question, slash myobservation.
When we're stressed, we up to apoint where we're close to
burnout, Our judgment is worseand the people I don't want
their judgments to be fucked up.
Is, first responders, right,Because even if it's not me, it
(18:01):
might be a family member orsomeone I love or what have you.
And so to me, I think you knowthat's the other explanation.
I don't know if you agree andmaybe we can talk about more,
but to me it's also like yourjudgment's affected when you're
that stress.
And how do we communicate that?
And does that?
Does that even resonate?
Or am I completely in leftfield, Cause I don't know
(18:21):
everything?
I'm just some guy.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Well, you're actually a% correct there.
It changes because if we talk alittle bit more scientifically,
if you will, about our stressresponse right so if our stress
response increases and thattriggers our fight or flight
response, the frontal cortex ofour brain where we reason,
problem solve, make gooddecisions and judgment turns
(18:47):
offline it is not evenfunctioning right Because that
survival goes back into ourbrainstem to get us through the
situation as safely and quicklyas possible, which is also back
where we're kind of stuck in theemotional side, which is the
reactionary.
And so in that case if you arechronically stressed and headed
(19:09):
to burnout, you're not thinkingclearly because you're too stuck
in their survival part of yourbrain.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I, I, I also tell peoplethat once you're in your
survival mode, what are thethree most you know?
I can talk as a therapist andsay four, but let's go with
three for now.
There's the fight, flight orfreeze, and then for all you
therapists who are listening outthere, I know about fawn, okay,
I know about it, but I don'tthink cops and firefighters want
(19:38):
to hear about fawning, althoughthey encounter it regularly.
But anyways, getting off subject, but I think that when you're
in a fight or flight response,your judgment becomes razor
sharp for one particular thing,this particular situation, and
sometimes the threat that'soccurring is not even real, it's
one that you imagine in yourmind or whatever.
(19:59):
Because of your burnout,because of where you're at, you
don't sleep 24, seven.
I mean, your cognitivelimitations are right there and
that's not an attack on anyone,it's just what it is.
And I think that's the otherpart.
That's hard to explain is thatyour cognitive abilities have
diminished.
And then fight flight, yeah, itcan be very beneficial if
someone pulls a gun on you oryou got to do cardiac arrest or
(20:21):
whatever.
Those are great.
But when it's a simple and Idon't want to say a simple
medical, I don't want to upsetpeople.
Simple, blank medical and thenyou're overreacting to it
because you're in fight orflight mode.
That is not good for the team,that's not good for the person
on the ground.
Frankly, it's not good foranyone.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Right, right, absolutely.
It's not good for anybody.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
So how do I so?
How do I get unburnt?
I mean to me that's, that'slike you know, like again I I'm
gonna play devil's advocate, butplease understand, I get it,
deidre.
Oh yeah, I'm gonna walk awayfrom a fucking uh shooting by
going let me go breathe for fiveminutes.
Yeah, that's great advice,deidre.
So I'm playing devil's advocatepurposefully, and if people
(21:02):
think I'm an asshole, believe me, there's at least four people
saying that in their brainalready.
So how do I tell someone, howdo we do this whole walking away
, relaxation, taking care ofoneself, stuff like that?
How do we communicate that?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Yeah, so that's a great, a great point in question
, and you make a good, a validpoint, right, because when we're
talking to first responders,you can't just walk away in the
moment.
It is not possible.
It's not part of the job.
What we can do, though, is wecan do things before a call, we
(21:37):
can do things right after a call, right, that are going to help
in the moment, and so, when wetalk about, we'll stick with,
like taking deep breaths andgoing for a walk for a minute,
as an example, I work with a lotof high functioning people,
right, high achieving people.
We're talking leaders, we'retalking tech as well first
responders but what I havelearned, and I have seen
(21:59):
repeatedly, is, when we build inthroughout our day, we're just
intentional to focus on takingthose deep breaths throughout
the day, right?
So every time I'm cooking ameal or I'm washing my hands and
I am intentional with some slow, deep breaths, what that does
is in the moment of stress.
You don't have to think.
(22:20):
I better take a deep breath tostay in my logical brain.
Your body will naturally tapinto that, because you've been
intentional and created as ahabit, right, and so I'm all for
what are habits we can create.
So then in those stressfulmoments, you can regulate and
respond versus reacting andsurvival.
(22:41):
So it's and I'm all about smallsteps right, Because if we want
this elaborate plan, who'sgoing to do the elaborate plan?
None of us, right?
We go.
That's too much, and sobuilding small, intentional
habits throughout your day iswhat's going to help in the
moment.
The other thing I would say isthings like if you prioritize
(23:02):
getting quality sleep, you, yourbrain and your body recover, so
then the next day when you'reback on shift, you're going to
respond more effectively.
But if you're not sleeping, youwill be reactionary, and so
there's a lot of things we cando right outside of the shift.
What's that?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
what do you?
Speaker 3 (23:23):
mean right, yeah, um, and there's actually some some
great youtube videos, videos onthe benefits of sleep, ted talks
that I've seen but it's, it'sthose things.
That's what are you doingintentionally.
So I would say, if we're backto okay on a call, you can't do
anything.
When you're done with a call,what do you do?
Put it aside and just move on.
(23:43):
Well, that's just building upthat stress.
So that's where I would say,can you take a few minutes and
walk it off and let your brainprocess?
It is after the fact.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
All I can say is I agree with you wholeheartedly.
And while you were talking, ittook a couple of swigs in my
water, and that's the other onethat I say is simple stuff.
Like you know, taking a waterbreak and people like, oh yeah,
and then they down.
They down 16 ounces in abouttwo seconds.
Your body's going to reject it.
That's just how it is right.
(24:15):
Um, you'll learn to go slowlyand take a few sips.
Your body will absorb, it willcalm itself down.
The regulation of water on thebody is absolutely phenomenal.
Yes, and the other part too.
For those of you who will besaying I'm making a car, I'm
making some sort of likeadvertisement.
I, you know my advertiser.
I don't advertise anything.
(24:37):
I don't believe in my sleepnumber.
Bed sleep might save my fuckinglife because it adjusts my, I
adjust my the sleep and makes mesleep.
It tells me how the quality ofmy sleep is and I look forward
to going to bed.
Yes, it costs me a lot of moneyand I get that, but to me, if
you're going to spend a third ofyour life which is, by the way,
(24:59):
you can look it up, that's whatit is on something I might as
well be fucking comfortable,enjoy it and, frankly, if it can
give me data as to how I'msleeping and everything else,
the more the merrier.
But I make no money.
You can choose whatever bed youwant.
This is not an advertisement,but why aren't we investing on
our own mattresses?
(25:19):
I just don't get it.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, I'm with you there.
People think that they, youknow, I hear all the time I'll
sleep when I'm dead.
Great, you'll have a shorterlife, right?
I don't, sometimes don't knowhow to respond, so it's
absolutely be comfortable.
Get a mattress you'recomfortable with.
I'm also going to say look atyour routine 30 minutes before
you want to sleep, because thathas a direct impact on your
(25:44):
quality.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I have the same sleep .
I call it sleep hygiene.
30 minutes before bed, take mymeds Currently has a sinus
infection, so I got to do somestuff for that Get into the
shower, I take a bath yes, it'snot manly, I don't give a shit.
Read a book, write in myjournal, go to bed.
It's pretty much every time thesame thing.
(26:05):
And guess what my body knows,once I start the first step,
it's going to start winding down.
I try to avoid screens.
I'm not saying I'm perfect.
I do avoid screens, that sleephygiene and setting that pattern
up.
Even if you work for a secondor mids, it does not matter.
Or if you're a firefighter, 24off and 24 on, find that sleep
(26:28):
hygiene because your body willactually adjust.
Even if it seems irregular, itactually is regular to go 24 on,
24 off, 24 on, 5 off, 4 off,depending on the departments or
3 off for some others.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
I'm not trying to over generalize, but you got to
get your body ready for sleepyeah, you make a great point
there in that it's that routineyou create because it we're
creatures of habit as humans,right, and that routine does
train our mind and our body.
Oh, it's time to rest andregardless of your, your
(27:06):
schedule, it works right.
I've worked with, I had, a techindividual is one that stands
out in particular.
So, most of the time, sure,it's a traditional day job,
right, but if they're updatingsoftware, what happens?
They have to work all night andit was not sleeping.
And so we worked on thisroutine, which is similar to
what you just described, whichis similar to mine, right, what
(27:28):
you just described, which issimilar to mine, right.
A bath calms the body,journaling, reading calms the
mind, and even on those on-callnights, or those nights he was
up all the time to update stuff,his quality of sleep improved
so much he's just like, wow, youknow.
And so it really does speak toroutine matters, no matter the
(27:51):
irregularity of a schedule.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
You create a pattern.
You create a pattern which weknow, the first thing, the other
stuff that you mentioned that Iwant to get back to.
There's so many things, but youtalked about patterns and one
of them is if your departmentfeels called out, I'm calling
you out.
Sometimes you don't get anorganization, particularly
police, fire departments, andthey're not supportive of these
(28:18):
things and they don't understandburnout, and burnout means okay
, we just got to replace themfor six weeks, six months,
whatever the case may be.
How do we talk about to largerorganizations, particularly and
again, yes, people with bars.
You heard me say it about this,because when your officer burns
out, your firefighter burns out, your EMT burns out, there's an
(28:39):
impact on the whole team.
It's not just that personthat's impacted.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
So I think for one, we have to start with getting
organizations to understand thatburnout is a real problem.
Most people in leadership arelike that's an individual
problem, burnout's not a problem, people just need to push
through.
But what I think they need tounderstand is somebody who gets
burnt out say to the point, Idid right that I shared earlier.
(29:03):
It is a two-year recovery toget back to who you are.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Two years.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Two years and I can actually track certain data
points in my own journey right.
Three months I noticed a smallshift.
Physically, I could move betterthan I was.
Six months I felt like I couldstart to work again, some not
necessarily jump right back intothe same kind of situation I
was, but I distinctly rememberthat two-year mark.
(29:31):
It was like a light bulb or aswitch flipped in me and all of
a sudden I felt like myselfagain.
Two years, right, and I thinkorganizations need to understand
that it's.
There are things that we'vetalked about that the
individuals can do on anindividual level, but on an
organizational level we have, onan organizational level we have
to recognize burnout is a realproblem and it will take people
(29:56):
out of the job permanently ifwe're not careful.
Right, and thenorganizationally it's.
What can you do to support that?
How can we as an organizationhelp support?
Yes, therapy is important,right, especially if you hit
that secondary traumatic stresslevel like I did.
But organizations have tolisten to people when they say
(30:18):
I'm not functioning well, right,exhaustion, decision fatigue,
cynicism, all those things.
We need to listen as anorganization and then say, okay,
what can we do?
Do we have policies andprocedures.
We need to shift a little bitto help, because a lot of them
think well, we have thiswellness program, they can go
(30:39):
get health coaching and they canget therapy.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Wonderful, that's a piece of the pie, it's not the
whole pie hey, here's a pill,yeah, now they're fine, they got
a pill, yeah.
Um, yeah, I think that that'sthe.
That's the other stuff, too,that you know, as I work on it's
not the whole pie.
Hey, here's a pill.
Yeah, now they're fine, theygot a pill, yeah.
Yeah, I think that that's the.
That's the other stuff, too,that you know, as I work on
creating a program with mycolleague and co-business owner,
I'm all for peer support.
I'm a hundred percent behindpeer support.
(31:03):
I like crisis intervention,stress management.
Yes, you can go do wellnessvisits, but you need all three
in order for an organization tobe effective, because for some
people they won't react to oneof them and I don't want to pick
on one of them, I'm just sayingone of them and I think that
that's the other part, too thatI feel particularly leadership
(31:23):
doesn't get.
But we got this wellnessprogram.
Meanwhile, it's some Joe Schmothat no one likes, who said they
had experience with firstresponders, but doesn't
understand the culture nor theterms, and they ask you, like
what's a world call?
And you're like, why would I gotalk to that guy?
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
So I think that you know I, when I think about
organizations, I think it's thesupport that you talked about.
More importantly is that knowwho you're working with and not
have one resource.
You know it's not like I neversaid to one of my clients you
know what?
Go take a bath, you'll be fine.
I've never given one solution.
I think it's absolutelyband-aiding stuff when you just
(32:05):
give one solution.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Right, right, yeah.
And I would say to that part ofmy journey was I had to explore
internally why did I allowmyself to get burnt out for the
third time?
Because, yes, there were thingsthat my supervisor and my
organization could havesupported me with, right, when
(32:29):
I'd go to them for a year andsaid I need a break from the
crisis line.
I can't do this night thingright now and I don't get heard
the organization's failing,supporting me, right.
But I had to do that internalwork to go.
Why did I get there?
And for me, it was because Ihave an anxious attachment style
, so I'm going to give more, soI feel needed, right.
(32:51):
Or, if you dig into yourpersonality styles, I dug into
my enneagram number and I wentoh my goodness, okay, no wonder
it's that people pleaser of methat puts myself last.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
But we have to find those root causes too and I
think that what one of the otherthings that I want to come back
to, um is.
You talked about know the mindaffecting the body and all that.
I my my view, and if peoplehave read my book and if they
haven't, that's fine.
I talk about the mind, body,spirit, like a whole lot of
people too.
It's having some sort ofspiritual life, and when people
(33:24):
hear spiritual, I always tellpeople I don't really care what
you believe in.
If you believe, it doesn't harmit.
Whatever you believe in doesn'tharm other people.
I'm 100% behind it.
There's no problem on my part.
But I think that that's theother part too, and I think that
(33:44):
when you talk about burnout is,I think, reconnecting to that
spiritual side.
Whatever we'll say God, goddess, goddess, gods, no God, but
spiritual, I mean I don't reallycare.
I mean there's a lot of NativeAmericans that believe a tree is
a God and there's nothing wrongwith that personally, and if
that's where it brings you, itbrings you.
But I ultimately think that theburnout is also really I'm
(34:06):
looking for the right word hereit really is helped when you
have a spiritual side on theother side and if you believe
that we're dead and there'snothing and there's never been
nothing, then that's also aspiritual belief and you got to
live like that, Because ifthat's the case, you want to
leave a burnout body, you wantto leave a burnout vision of
yourself, or what do you want todo.
(34:28):
That's still spiritual, yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a hundred percent.
I would agree with that RightIn in my program.
I really have, like you, youcould search right these
wellness dimensions online and Ifelt like how they were they
were viewed to me didn't fit,and that what you're saying
there is 100 true.
Our spiritual self has to be atthe center because it is
(34:54):
directly connected to what youbelieve.
Your purpose is right, not justwhat you believe in, but it's
where your sense of purposecomes from.
So if you're not connected andyou don't have that, you're
going to continue down thisroute of burnout.
But that part really does kindof get to the core of what's
going on with burnout.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, I think we touched a lot of the stuff here
on burnout and I think that youtalked about managing it on an
individual level, but sometimeswe need help, and what I mean by
that is great ways to reach outto Deidre.
How would people get in touchwith you?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, so the best way to find me or get in touch is
to go to my website, which isabundantwellnessessentialscom,
and if you want to just book afree call to chat, just go to
abundantwellnesscom.
Forward slash consult.
Be happy to just help you kindof figure out what's going on
and what would be the mosthelpful for you.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
And if?
If I'm not in Idaho, can Istill contact you?
Yes, so as far as I, like toput that in because people will
be like, well, that's great, I'min Massachusetts.
Yeah, coaching is not limitedto that.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
So, yeah, yeah, if you're looking for therapy
specifically, then yes, you'dactually have to be in Idaho,
washington, montana or Oregon,because I'm licensed in four
states and do a lot of tell out,but coaching you can be
anywhere, and even if you'relooking for therapy, I'm happy
to support you in trying to findwhat you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
So we'll put that in the show notes so they can reach
out to you on the web anysocial media that they should
follow or so you can actuallyfind me almost on any social
media.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
I have a YouTube channel as well.
Most of my handles are either Dguest or YouTube, might be
Dietrich guest or in full name,so either one.
You can find me Facebook,linkedin, youtube, instagram,
all of the above.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
And I'll make sure that people can reach you
because I think this is soimportant talking about burnout,
particularly my first responderpeople, but I want to thank you
for your time.
This was an awesome interview.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Yeah, thanks for having me, steve.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Well, thank you, deidre, really helpful.
Go check her out on our website.
Amazing conversation and I hopeyou join us for episode 222.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
This podcast is forinformational, educational and
entertainment purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(37:40):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Welcome, welcome, welcome.
Episode 221.
If you haven't listened toepisode 220, it was with my
buddy, Bill Dwinell's, so golisten to it.
We talked about Fortress, amongother things, which hopefully
that'll pique your interest andgo listen to it.
It's a new approach and addinganother element to how we can
support first responders on aregular basis.
(01:02):
But episode 221 was with DeidreGuestrin.
Deidre Guestrin is the founderof abundant wellness essential.
She is a certified health coachand a licensed clinical
professional counselor, lpc, whounderstands the challenges of
high-perform career.
She is based out of Ohio.
She's worked with private andgovernmental contracts, as well
as the DOC in Idaho departmentof corrections.
(01:24):
For those who don't know whatthat means, deidre is on a
mission to help high achievingprofessionals, as well as first
responders, conquer burnout andthrive in their careers in the
next few years.
So she reached out to me onFacebook and I can't wait to
hear her interview.
So here it is interview.
(01:52):
So here it is.
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that will save you time andmoney and I highly encourage you
to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcometo episode 221.
Very happy we can.
You know you connect withpeople in different ways and we
have a great group on Facebookfor first responders and
therapists and I had asked ifanyone was interested.
(03:21):
I know we had a couple of otherguests, but you know, one who
spoke up really quickly wasDeidre, and Deidre was really
excited to come on and I'm sohappy to have her on.
So, deidre Gestron, did I getthat right?
Speaker 3 (03:33):
You did.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
All right.
Welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, thanks, steve.
It's great to be here.
You know first responders arenear and dear to my heart.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Any particular reason .
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Well, when I was a kid, my, my father and then both
my aunt and my uncle werevolunteer, so I lived in I live
in such a small community thatwhen I was a child it wasn't a
paid district, it was allvolunteer for first responders.
And so I just remember as a kid, right, if I was with my dad
(04:09):
and he'd get a call, he'd takeoff to town and I'd hang out in
the fire station until my momcame and got me, yeah, and so
that's kind of why it's near anddear to my heart and I know a
lot of people in the field andit's a it's a stressful job and
it takes, I think, a certainpersonality to sustain it.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
You know, that's a great place where we can go
later on, because it's also thetype of person that will go
above and beyond, to a point ofburnout, and that's what I think
we're going to talk about today.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
But maybe it's good to start off with something
simple like who are you, what doyou, what do you?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
you do everything else that goes with that, other
than have parents who work inthat field yes, so I have
actually been a licensed mentalhealth counselor, for I think
I'm going on 16 years and abouttwo years ago I added a health
and wellness coachingcertification to that.
Part of that was through my ownburnout journey and recovery
(05:05):
from that, because I trulybelieve to heal us as
individuals, we actually have tolook at both the mental health
and the physical healthcomponent, because it's so
intertwined.
And so I've been, you know, thelast, I would say, since COVID.
My therapy practice has becomelike 90% about burnout and
(05:27):
stress and then that's kind ofbetween that and my personal
journey and my own health issuesbecause of it led me to add the
coaching component, becauseit's so prevalent in our world
today and too many people arestruggling.
Too many people are leaving thecareers they feel passionate
about and they feel called toand they're leaving because of
(05:49):
burnout and it's the numbers arejust astronomical in every
field.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
If you expect me to argue with you, number one, you
know I'm going through my own.
You talk about 16 years.
I'm 26 years in doing therapyand I just turned 50 a few
months ago.
One of the things I'm thinkingabout right now is exactly that
and again, most of my clientsheard me say that privately to
them, so I don't care aboutsaying it here.
(06:16):
It's not about one client.
It's about the overall journeyof seeing 120 to 130 individual
sessions for the last 26 years.
That right now is just grindingthe hell out of me and I don't
want to burn out.
So I'm taking my time andlooking at my options.
I don't want to say I havewhich options I'm going to take
and all that fun stuff, but I amlooking at those and I'm trying
(06:39):
to be truthful to myselfinstead of burning out and
wanting to fuck this fieldbecause that's field Cause
that's definitely not where Iwant to be.
But uh, we all have our ownjourneys with burnout.
I'm, I'm.
I'm assuming there's a.
There's a story here.
Deidre's going to tell me oh,here's my story.
So I hope that you can sharethat with, because I think it's
always important.
One of the things about firstresponders is they want that
(07:02):
personalization.
Oh, that's why you know a lotabout this shit and I think that
that's what they like the most.
So you know.
There's so many things youtalked about, but that's the
first question I have is what'syour personal experience with
burnout?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Yeah, and I'm happy to absolutely share that because
it's it's a big, significantpiece to why I'm on this journey
Right and why I'm here todayand in my entire career not just
as a counselor but prior I'veactually hit burnout three very
distinct times in my entirecareer, but it was this third
(07:38):
one that really had the mostimpact on me and that I want to
share a little bit about.
And part of that is because inmy recovery my burnout actually
became secondary traumaticstress and there's a lot of
research out there that willkind of put those in the same
bucket.
But I don't see them that way.
I see one as one leads to theother.
(07:59):
And so little bit of backgroundon kind of my last round of
burnout.
I was working community health,I was program manager but still
seeing clients.
So I was doing right multipleroles.
We managed our own crisis line,which means people if they were
(08:20):
at the ER because they werefeeling suicidal, we would get
called to go in and assess them,potentially find placement.
Well, as a supervisor, I had tosupport that as well, and I was
helping some residentialprograms right.
But what happened was when Isay I was working 24-7, like I
am literal, steve.
I was working 24-7.
(08:40):
I was doing my day job.
If the crisis worker had threepeople they were trying to
assess and I was their backup, Ihad to go in and help them at
night.
Or we had some kids runningfrom a residential program.
So, trying to maintain a goodworking relationship with our
law enforcement, what did we do?
We'd go out and help, look forthem, and so I really did work
(09:02):
24-7 for a while.
Well, what happened was I wasn'tsleeping and it was starting to
take such a toll on my physicalhealth that in my mid 30s I
developed arthritis and I'm likeI'm too young for this.
I went to a doctor visit whichI see, a doctor who does more
functional medicine, right, sopreventative, let's get to the
(09:23):
root cause.
And if I was to quote him, hesaid Deidre, your job is killing
you.
If you don't make a change, Ican't help you.
That was the biggest light bulbmoment in my journey, because I
was so tired, I was very cranky, I didn't care what I said to
my supervisor, that I knewsomething had to change Right,
(09:44):
and so, thankfully, I had somevery supportive colleagues that
I worked with and one saidDeidre, take FMLA, you have it
Well.
Steve, I don't know if you knowthis, but the World Health
Organization actually has anofficial definition for burnout
and there's more people todaywho are taking leave of absence
(10:04):
and FMLA for burnout than theyare for physical health reasons,
for chronic illness More peoplebecause of burnout.
But in my journey I did that forthree months, tried to figure
out okay, what do I need?
Change jobs?
Because we all think, oh, I'llchange jobs and then things will
be fine.
No, no, not the case, becausewhere I went to it was very much
(10:27):
played down the issues thefacility had and the doors
closed six months after I gotthere.
I had to stay for two moremonths to finalize help clean up
.
So I moved states for a jobthat I thought would help lasted
eight months.
But that's actually theblessing to where my recovery
(10:50):
process started, because thatput me on unemployment, which
meant I could sit back and focuson myself for six months, not
worry about finances, and trulygo OK.
Why did I allow this for thethird time, three times in right
?
Why did I allow this for thethird time three times in right?
20 plus years?
That is that's too many timesin my opinion.
Once is too much.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I was going to argue that point, but thank you for
doing that.
But I think that what you know,there's, there's, there's like
what I like fascinating guestsand such you.
You fall in that category.
I've got like five notes I wantto bring up, but I think a good
continuance here is I'm happyyou didn't burn out, because it
sounds like you're bringing alot of good stuff to the world,
so so happy that you took careof us yourself and take us up of
(11:35):
us now.
You know the first responderworld.
I'm not the first responder,but I do work.
Number two I work in socialservices and I I worked on on
the actual crisis team while Iwas working in the residential
program and the supportedhousing program.
So there's a lot of what yousaid really resonated with me,
because you know it's like apassion, but when your passion
(11:58):
turns into obligation it changesand I think and I think that's
where you know I had to take astep back myself.
I'm lucky I never got toburnout.
I hope I never get there, but Icertainly had to take a step
back and work less and feelguilty about it, and I'm sure
that you know all the feelings.
But I guess the question.
The natural question that comeswith everything we just talked
(12:19):
about is, if I'm a policeofficer, I'm a firefighter, I'm
a paramedic, I'm an EMT, an ERnurse, it can't just be like you
know what, I'm going to changemy job right now.
Thank you, because I'm surethere's someone yelling at the
radio saying, oh yeah, I canwalk away from being an officer.
What the hell is she talkingabout?
So how do you talk about thatwith a journey, with first
(12:41):
responders, particularly inregards to burnout and
prevention, and all that funstuff?
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I think it's important to you know, explore
that a job change doesn'tnecessarily fix it Like it can
help in the moment.
But if we're honest, right whenwe, if we look back at who gets
into the field of firstresponding or any helping
profession because that's reallywhat you and I also do, steve,
(13:05):
and we get into it because wecare, we want to help people,
and that takes a certainpersonality, right, and that's
not an easy thing to just walkaway from.
So you can walk away, butyou're going to probably feel
like a piece of you is missing,right, and so instead you have
to explore okay, what changescan I make so I can once again
(13:29):
be passionate about what I'mdoing?
Look forward to what I'm doing,because I do think we're going
to have ups and downs,regardless symptoms or burnout,
right, that physical, because Ithink I mentioned with me I had
the extreme physical symptoms,started developing diabetic
(13:49):
numbers.
Mine went into trauma that Ididn't even like my family
standing behind me.
I had to sit with my wall, myback against the wall at a
family function, and so we haveto really get back to why am I
doing this?
We need to explore back at ourpurpose but then look at what
can I do individually.
But I also want to recognize wehave many fields that have we
(14:13):
might call them broken systems.
Healthcare is a broken system,right.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
That's an understatement, but anyway.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
It is, and so I don't want to discount, like there's
things organizations andcompanies also need to implement
, which is another part of kindof my mission but there are
absolutely things that we can doindividually.
But we have to kind of askourselves what's important.
We have to stay focused on that.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
And I think that what you just talked about is
exactly.
You know, one of the thingsI've seen too is that you said
that you know it goes intophysical aspects.
Is that you said that you knowit goes into physical aspects.
You know, I do have a few firstresponders that I work with
that have developed, like youknow for lack of a better word
autoimmune issues from beingburnt out.
And you know the medicalprofession is not too happy when
(15:03):
we say, well, it's asymptomology of the burnout, not
that they have an autoimmuneissue, they get upset with that.
And that's what I mean aboutthe system being broken because
someone somehow physical healthis above mental health.
I don't understand.
But how do we kind of like tellpeople like chill, I mean, you
know, like to me, like it's thatold saying right, has anyone
ever calmed down by being told,hey, calm down.
(15:23):
Oh, geez, that's a great idea,let me just calm down.
No, no one's ever done that.
So saying, yeah, you know whatChill, or you're going to burn
out.
I know that in the helpingprofession that I work in, if
you would ever told that to meand be like, okay, thank you,
and I would have been like yeah,no, until I was probably broken
down completely.
But anyway, how do we getpeople to like slow down?
(15:45):
Because I think the otheraspect that people seem to don't
understand is that if you'renot doing good within any
organization, but particularlyin the first responders, you
only have two or three guys onwith you.
Fire and police is typicallylike that you not doing well is
affecting two or three otherpeople, including their safety
at times.
So I think that that's theother part too is like how do we
(16:06):
tell people to chill and how dowe explain a little bit of the
effect on the team?
Speaker 3 (16:10):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So several of the things that Ireally come back to when I work
with individuals is we have toget back to a few basics.
So we have to get back tothings that regulate our nervous
system, right.
So instead of telling somebodyto just chill out, I might tell
them take a five minute breakand go for a walk and take some
(16:31):
deep breaths right, get thatnervous system to calm down,
because what people are notrealizing is any form of stress.
Our body responds as if we're insurvival mode.
It is the exact same mechanism,right, and so the higher and
the longer we're in that stateof stress, our body changes
where that energy goes, which iswhy chronic illness or
autoimmune diseases can develop,because our body's not
(16:53):
functioning normally.
It's not digesting food the wayit should be, and so anytime
you can do things like take atwo minute break and go walk,
get a little movement right, getsome of that deep breathing.
So you're not holding yourbreath, because a lot of us hold
our breath when we're stressed.
It's all those things.
That's going to help in themoment, because, you're
absolutely correct, if I'mstressed, I'm going to react a
(17:17):
little more emotionally, whichmeans the other person's not
going to handle that.
Well, right.
Right, they're gonna be likewait, wait, what's going on?
And so then they're going tostart being on edge around me,
right, and going should I saysomething, or is she going to
react?
And that's where it starts toaffect those around us because
they're like, okay, I'm justgoing to stay away.
But that doesn't work if youhave to work as a team and
(17:39):
there's not many of you.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
And I would agree with you 100%.
Let me add a question slash myobservation with you a hundred
percent.
Let me add a question, slash myobservation.
When we're stressed, we up to apoint where we're close to
burnout, Our judgment is worseand the people I don't want
their judgments to be fucked up.
Is, first responders, right,Because even if it's not me, it
(18:01):
might be a family member orsomeone I love or what have you.
And so to me, I think you knowthat's the other explanation.
I don't know if you agree andmaybe we can talk about more,
but to me it's also like yourjudgment's affected when you're
that stress.
And how do we communicate that?
And does that?
Does that even resonate?
Or am I completely in leftfield, Cause I don't know
(18:21):
everything?
I'm just some guy.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Well, you're actually a% correct there.
It changes because if we talk alittle bit more scientifically,
if you will, about our stressresponse right so if our stress
response increases and thattriggers our fight or flight
response, the frontal cortex ofour brain where we reason,
problem solve, make gooddecisions and judgment turns
(18:47):
offline it is not evenfunctioning right Because that
survival goes back into ourbrainstem to get us through the
situation as safely and quicklyas possible, which is also back
where we're kind of stuck in theemotional side, which is the
reactionary.
And so in that case if you arechronically stressed and headed
(19:09):
to burnout, you're not thinkingclearly because you're too stuck
in their survival part of yourbrain.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Absolutely.
Yeah, I, I, I also tell peoplethat once you're in your
survival mode, what are thethree most you know?
I can talk as a therapist andsay four, but let's go with
three for now.
There's the fight, flight orfreeze, and then for all you
therapists who are listening outthere, I know about fawn, okay,
I know about it, but I don'tthink cops and firefighters want
(19:38):
to hear about fawning, althoughthey encounter it regularly.
But anyways, getting off subject, but I think that when you're
in a fight or flight response,your judgment becomes razor
sharp for one particular thing,this particular situation, and
sometimes the threat that'soccurring is not even real, it's
one that you imagine in yourmind or whatever.
(19:59):
Because of your burnout,because of where you're at, you
don't sleep 24, seven.
I mean, your cognitivelimitations are right there and
that's not an attack on anyone,it's just what it is.
And I think that's the otherpart.
That's hard to explain is thatyour cognitive abilities have
diminished.
And then fight flight, yeah, itcan be very beneficial if
someone pulls a gun on you oryou got to do cardiac arrest or
(20:21):
whatever.
Those are great.
But when it's a simple and Idon't want to say a simple
medical, I don't want to upsetpeople.
Simple, blank medical and thenyou're overreacting to it
because you're in fight orflight mode.
That is not good for the team,that's not good for the person
on the ground.
Frankly, it's not good foranyone.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Right, right, absolutely.
It's not good for anybody.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
So how do I so?
How do I get unburnt?
I mean to me that's, that'slike you know, like again I I'm
gonna play devil's advocate, butplease understand, I get it,
deidre.
Oh yeah, I'm gonna walk awayfrom a fucking uh shooting by
going let me go breathe for fiveminutes.
Yeah, that's great advice,deidre.
So I'm playing devil's advocatepurposefully, and if people
(21:02):
think I'm an asshole, believe me, there's at least four people
saying that in their brainalready.
So how do I tell someone, howdo we do this whole walking away
, relaxation, taking care ofoneself, stuff like that?
How do we communicate that?
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Yeah, so that's a great, a great point in question
, and you make a good, a validpoint, right, because when we're
talking to first responders,you can't just walk away in the
moment.
It is not possible.
It's not part of the job.
What we can do, though, is wecan do things before a call, we
(21:37):
can do things right after a call, right, that are going to help
in the moment, and so, when wetalk about, we'll stick with,
like taking deep breaths andgoing for a walk for a minute,
as an example, I work with a lotof high functioning people,
right, high achieving people.
We're talking leaders, we'retalking tech as well first
responders but what I havelearned, and I have seen
(21:59):
repeatedly, is, when we build inthroughout our day, we're just
intentional to focus on takingthose deep breaths throughout
the day, right?
So every time I'm cooking ameal or I'm washing my hands and
I am intentional with some slow, deep breaths, what that does
is in the moment of stress.
You don't have to think.
(22:20):
I better take a deep breath tostay in my logical brain.
Your body will naturally tapinto that, because you've been
intentional and created as ahabit, right, and so I'm all for
what are habits we can create.
So then in those stressfulmoments, you can regulate and
respond versus reacting andsurvival.
(22:41):
So it's and I'm all about smallsteps right, Because if we want
this elaborate plan, who'sgoing to do the elaborate plan?
None of us, right?
We go.
That's too much, and sobuilding small, intentional
habits throughout your day iswhat's going to help in the
moment.
The other thing I would say isthings like if you prioritize
(23:02):
getting quality sleep, you, yourbrain and your body recover, so
then the next day when you'reback on shift, you're going to
respond more effectively.
But if you're not sleeping, youwill be reactionary, and so
there's a lot of things we cando right outside of the shift.
What's that?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
what do you?
Speaker 3 (23:23):
mean right, yeah, um, and there's actually some some
great youtube videos, videos onthe benefits of sleep, ted talks
that I've seen but it's, it'sthose things.
That's what are you doingintentionally.
So I would say, if we're backto okay on a call, you can't do
anything.
When you're done with a call,what do you do?
Put it aside and just move on.
(23:43):
Well, that's just building upthat stress.
So that's where I would say,can you take a few minutes and
walk it off and let your brainprocess?
It is after the fact.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
All I can say is I agree with you wholeheartedly.
And while you were talking, ittook a couple of swigs in my
water, and that's the other onethat I say is simple stuff.
Like you know, taking a waterbreak and people like, oh yeah,
and then they down.
They down 16 ounces in abouttwo seconds.
Your body's going to reject it.
That's just how it is right.
(24:15):
Um, you'll learn to go slowlyand take a few sips.
Your body will absorb, it willcalm itself down.
The regulation of water on thebody is absolutely phenomenal.
Yes, and the other part too.
For those of you who will besaying I'm making a car, I'm
making some sort of likeadvertisement.
I, you know my advertiser.
I don't advertise anything.
(24:37):
I don't believe in my sleepnumber.
Bed sleep might save my fuckinglife because it adjusts my, I
adjust my the sleep and makes mesleep.
It tells me how the quality ofmy sleep is and I look forward
to going to bed.
Yes, it costs me a lot of moneyand I get that, but to me, if
you're going to spend a third ofyour life which is, by the way,
(24:59):
you can look it up, that's whatit is on something I might as
well be fucking comfortable,enjoy it and, frankly, if it can
give me data as to how I'msleeping and everything else,
the more the merrier.
But I make no money.
You can choose whatever bed youwant.
This is not an advertisement,but why aren't we investing on
our own mattresses?
(25:19):
I just don't get it.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, I'm with you there.
People think that they, youknow, I hear all the time I'll
sleep when I'm dead.
Great, you'll have a shorterlife, right?
I don't, sometimes don't knowhow to respond, so it's
absolutely be comfortable.
Get a mattress you'recomfortable with.
I'm also going to say look atyour routine 30 minutes before
you want to sleep, because thathas a direct impact on your
(25:44):
quality.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I have the same sleep .
I call it sleep hygiene.
30 minutes before bed, take mymeds Currently has a sinus
infection, so I got to do somestuff for that Get into the
shower, I take a bath yes, it'snot manly, I don't give a shit.
Read a book, write in myjournal, go to bed.
It's pretty much every time thesame thing.
(26:05):
And guess what my body knows,once I start the first step,
it's going to start winding down.
I try to avoid screens.
I'm not saying I'm perfect.
I do avoid screens, that sleephygiene and setting that pattern
up.
Even if you work for a secondor mids, it does not matter.
Or if you're a firefighter, 24off and 24 on, find that sleep
(26:28):
hygiene because your body willactually adjust.
Even if it seems irregular, itactually is regular to go 24 on,
24 off, 24 on, 5 off, 4 off,depending on the departments or
3 off for some others.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
I'm not trying to over generalize, but you got to
get your body ready for sleepyeah, you make a great point
there in that it's that routineyou create because it we're
creatures of habit as humans,right, and that routine does
train our mind and our body.
Oh, it's time to rest andregardless of your, your
(27:06):
schedule, it works right.
I've worked with, I had, a techindividual is one that stands
out in particular.
So, most of the time, sure,it's a traditional day job,
right, but if they're updatingsoftware, what happens?
They have to work all night andit was not sleeping.
And so we worked on thisroutine, which is similar to
what you just described, whichis similar to mine, right, what
(27:28):
you just described, which issimilar to mine, right.
A bath calms the body,journaling, reading calms the
mind, and even on those on-callnights, or those nights he was
up all the time to update stuff,his quality of sleep improved
so much he's just like, wow, youknow.
And so it really does speak toroutine matters, no matter the
(27:51):
irregularity of a schedule.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
You create a pattern.
You create a pattern which weknow, the first thing, the other
stuff that you mentioned that Iwant to get back to.
There's so many things, but youtalked about patterns and one
of them is if your departmentfeels called out, I'm calling
you out.
Sometimes you don't get anorganization, particularly
police, fire departments, andthey're not supportive of these
(28:18):
things and they don't understandburnout, and burnout means okay
, we just got to replace themfor six weeks, six months,
whatever the case may be.
How do we talk about to largerorganizations, particularly and
again, yes, people with bars.
You heard me say it about this,because when your officer burns
out, your firefighter burns out, your EMT burns out, there's an
(28:39):
impact on the whole team.
It's not just that personthat's impacted.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
So I think for one, we have to start with getting
organizations to understand thatburnout is a real problem.
Most people in leadership arelike that's an individual
problem, burnout's not a problem, people just need to push
through.
But what I think they need tounderstand is somebody who gets
burnt out say to the point, Idid right that I shared earlier.
(29:03):
It is a two-year recovery toget back to who you are.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Two years.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Two years and I can actually track certain data
points in my own journey right.
Three months I noticed a smallshift.
Physically, I could move betterthan I was.
Six months I felt like I couldstart to work again, some not
necessarily jump right back intothe same kind of situation I
was, but I distinctly rememberthat two-year mark.
(29:31):
It was like a light bulb or aswitch flipped in me and all of
a sudden I felt like myselfagain.
Two years, right, and I thinkorganizations need to understand
that it's.
There are things that we'vetalked about that the
individuals can do on anindividual level, but on an
organizational level we have, onan organizational level we have
to recognize burnout is a realproblem and it will take people
(29:56):
out of the job permanently ifwe're not careful.
Right, and thenorganizationally it's.
What can you do to support that?
How can we as an organizationhelp support?
Yes, therapy is important,right, especially if you hit
that secondary traumatic stresslevel like I did.
But organizations have tolisten to people when they say
(30:18):
I'm not functioning well, right,exhaustion, decision fatigue,
cynicism, all those things.
We need to listen as anorganization and then say, okay,
what can we do?
Do we have policies andprocedures.
We need to shift a little bitto help, because a lot of them
think well, we have thiswellness program, they can go
(30:39):
get health coaching and they canget therapy.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Wonderful, that's a piece of the pie, it's not the
whole pie hey, here's a pill,yeah, now they're fine, they got
a pill, yeah.
Um, yeah, I think that that'sthe.
That's the other stuff, too,that you know, as I work on it's
not the whole pie.
Hey, here's a pill.
Yeah, now they're fine, theygot a pill, yeah.
Yeah, I think that that's the.
That's the other stuff, too,that you know, as I work on
creating a program with mycolleague and co-business owner,
I'm all for peer support.
I'm a hundred percent behindpeer support.
(31:03):
I like crisis intervention,stress management.
Yes, you can go do wellnessvisits, but you need all three
in order for an organization tobe effective, because for some
people they won't react to oneof them and I don't want to pick
on one of them, I'm just sayingone of them and I think that
that's the other part, too thatI feel particularly leadership
(31:23):
doesn't get.
But we got this wellnessprogram.
Meanwhile, it's some Joe Schmothat no one likes, who said they
had experience with firstresponders, but doesn't
understand the culture nor theterms, and they ask you, like
what's a world call?
And you're like, why would I gotalk to that guy?
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Right right.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
So I think that you know I, when I think about
organizations, I think it's thesupport that you talked about.
More importantly is that knowwho you're working with and not
have one resource.
You know it's not like I neversaid to one of my clients you
know what?
Go take a bath, you'll be fine.
I've never given one solution.
I think it's absolutelyband-aiding stuff when you just
(32:05):
give one solution.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
Right, right, yeah.
And I would say to that part ofmy journey was I had to explore
internally why did I allowmyself to get burnt out for the
third time?
Because, yes, there were thingsthat my supervisor and my
organization could havesupported me with, right, when
(32:29):
I'd go to them for a year andsaid I need a break from the
crisis line.
I can't do this night thingright now and I don't get heard
the organization's failing,supporting me, right.
But I had to do that internalwork to go.
Why did I get there?
And for me, it was because Ihave an anxious attachment style
, so I'm going to give more, soI feel needed, right.
(32:51):
Or, if you dig into yourpersonality styles, I dug into
my enneagram number and I wentoh my goodness, okay, no wonder
it's that people pleaser of methat puts myself last.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
But we have to find those root causes too and I
think that what one of the otherthings that I want to come back
to, um is.
You talked about know the mindaffecting the body and all that.
I my my view, and if peoplehave read my book and if they
haven't, that's fine.
I talk about the mind, body,spirit, like a whole lot of
people too.
It's having some sort ofspiritual life, and when people
(33:24):
hear spiritual, I always tellpeople I don't really care what
you believe in.
If you believe, it doesn't harmit.
Whatever you believe in doesn'tharm other people.
I'm 100% behind it.
There's no problem on my part.
But I think that that's theother part too, and I think that
(33:44):
when you talk about burnout is,I think, reconnecting to that
spiritual side.
Whatever we'll say God, goddess, goddess, gods, no God, but
spiritual, I mean I don't reallycare.
I mean there's a lot of NativeAmericans that believe a tree is
a God and there's nothing wrongwith that personally, and if
that's where it brings you, itbrings you.
But I ultimately think that theburnout is also really I'm
(34:06):
looking for the right word hereit really is helped when you
have a spiritual side on theother side and if you believe
that we're dead and there'snothing and there's never been
nothing, then that's also aspiritual belief and you got to
live like that, Because ifthat's the case, you want to
leave a burnout body, you wantto leave a burnout vision of
yourself, or what do you want todo.
(34:28):
That's still spiritual, yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
Yeah, yeah, and that's a hundred percent.
I would agree with that RightIn in my program.
I really have, like you, youcould search right these
wellness dimensions online and Ifelt like how they were they
were viewed to me didn't fit,and that what you're saying
there is 100 true.
Our spiritual self has to be atthe center because it is
(34:54):
directly connected to what youbelieve.
Your purpose is right, not justwhat you believe in, but it's
where your sense of purposecomes from.
So if you're not connected andyou don't have that, you're
going to continue down thisroute of burnout.
But that part really does kindof get to the core of what's
going on with burnout.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Well, I think we touched a lot of the stuff here
on burnout and I think that youtalked about managing it on an
individual level, but sometimeswe need help, and what I mean by
that is great ways to reach outto Deidre.
How would people get in touchwith you?
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Yeah, so the best way to find me or get in touch is
to go to my website, which isabundantwellnessessentialscom,
and if you want to just book afree call to chat, just go to
abundantwellnesscom.
Forward slash consult.
Be happy to just help you kindof figure out what's going on
and what would be the mosthelpful for you.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
And if?
If I'm not in Idaho, can Istill contact you?
Yes, so as far as I, like toput that in because people will
be like, well, that's great, I'min Massachusetts.
Yeah, coaching is not limitedto that.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
So, yeah, yeah, if you're looking for therapy
specifically, then yes, you'dactually have to be in Idaho,
washington, montana or Oregon,because I'm licensed in four
states and do a lot of tell out,but coaching you can be
anywhere, and even if you'relooking for therapy, I'm happy
to support you in trying to findwhat you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
So we'll put that in the show notes so they can reach
out to you on the web anysocial media that they should
follow or so you can actuallyfind me almost on any social
media.
Speaker 3 (36:37):
I have a YouTube channel as well.
Most of my handles are either Dguest or YouTube, might be
Dietrich guest or in full name,so either one.
You can find me Facebook,linkedin, youtube, instagram,
all of the above.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
And I'll make sure that people can reach you
because I think this is soimportant talking about burnout,
particularly my first responderpeople, but I want to thank you
for your time.
This was an awesome interview.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Yeah, thanks for having me, steve.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Well, thank you, deidre, really helpful.
Go check her out on our website.
Amazing conversation and I hopeyou join us for episode 222.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
Please like, subscribe and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful and, as a reminder, this
podcast is for informational,educational and entertainment
purposes only.
This podcast is forinformational, educational and
entertainment purposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(37:40):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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