E.222 Sweating It Out: Fire Boots to Therapy Couch

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When a fellow firefighter confessed suicidal thoughts to Adam Neff one night at the firehouse, it changed everything. Despite his decades of experience handling emergencies, Adam found himself unprepared for this particular crisis. That moment became the catalyst for his remarkable transition from assistant chief of operations to licensed professional counselor specializing in first responder mental health.

During our conversation, Adam reveals the profound disconnect between traditional therapeutic approaches and the needs of emergency responders. Drawing from his 38 years in the fire service and his clinical training, he illuminates why cultural competency isn't just helpful – it's essential for effective mental health care in this population. His colorful anecdotes highlight how clinicians who can't navigate firehouse humor, understand departmental hierarchies, or recognize the language of the profession will struggle to build trust with these clients.

Adam's approach bridges these worlds perfectly. He describes teaching somatic awareness – helping responders recognize when their "check engine light" is signaling emotional distress – in a way that resonates with tactical professionals. His strict confidentiality boundaries protect the vulnerability of clients who may work alongside referral sources, while his fourth-floor perspective training (offered free to departments nationwide) makes mental health concepts accessible to those who've traditionally avoided seeking help.

Perhaps most powerfully, Adam challenges the myth that because firefighters work in teams and talk around the kitchen table, they're naturally more connected to their emotions. The reality is more complex – these heroes need therapists who understand when to push, when to use humor, and when to simply sit in the discomfort together. His insight that "unexpressed expectations is premeditated resentment" captures the importance of directness in this work.

Whether you're a first responder struggling with your mental health, a clinician wanting to better serve this population, or someone who cares about the wellbeing of our emergency services personnel, this episode provides invaluable perspective on what healing looks like when the rescuer becomes the one in need of rescue.

Adam can be reached on his website at www.agoodspacetherapy.com

Adam also founded and continues to coordinate the Springfield Area Memorial Stair Climb- http://springfieldmemorialstairclimb.org/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where
strength meets strategy andcourage to help you move forward
.
Each week, your host, steveBisson, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions and

(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress managementand emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.

Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hi and welcome to episode 222.
If you haven't listened toepisode 221, go back and listen.
It's with my buddy and mybusiness partner, bill Dwanals.
It was a great interview, soplease go back and listen to it.
But episode 222 will be withAdam Neff.
Adam Neff is someone who was inthe fire service for about 38
years and is currently workingas an LPC and a consultant as

(01:04):
well as a trainer.
He's focused on emergencyresponders as a whole.
I'm sure that he'll talk aboutthat and he was referred to me
through a group that I prolongedto, so hopefully you guys will
get a great interview.
I like a guy with service andmental health combined, because
I think that's a uniqueperspective.
So here's the interview.

(01:30):
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you to do so.
Well, hi everyone and welcome toepisode 222.
I connected with this gentlemanover Facebook, I believe, and I
love this story, and you knowthere's nothing like what you
know.
Resilience development inaction is about the psychology

(03:04):
of first responders, essentially, and what Adam Neff is is a
former firefighter for 30 yearswho now has his license.
What did they call him?
Professional counseling, Ibelieve.
Yeah, licensed professionalcounselor In Massachusetts.
We have a different name, butthey're all acronyms.
You forget about them at onepoint.
But yes, that's, and I'm likemy, my god, this is like the

(03:28):
perfect guest for my audience.
So, adam, welcome to resiliencedevelopment in action.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
thank you, thank you.
I appreciate being here and theopportunity to leave it better
than I found it we were talkingabout it earlier.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
I can't wait for you guys.
He's launching his his uhwebsite.
He launched it in august, right, so you guys can go to a brand
new website with a lot ofinformation.
We'll definitely talk aboutthat, but I just want to mention
that right off the top, and forthose of you who don't listen
regularly, it'll be in the shownotes, but I always try to
connect my audience to thepeople who are here.
But you know I got to talk toyou beforehand.

(04:06):
We talked about how sweaty wewere in 95 degree heat, but not
together, not together forclarity, yes, that the saunas
are done separately, but weenjoy them nonetheless.
Oh sorry, is that too much again?
But anyway, and you knowthere's there's something called

(04:26):
time zones that really affectus for being able to have that
sauna together.
But that's okay, man, one dayI'll go to Missouri and I
promised a friend of mine inMissouri to go visit one day, so
maybe I'll meet you there, butlet's avoid the saunas, just in
case.
But all joking aside, tell us alittle bit about yourself.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
Yeah, I'm a licensed professional counselor.
I've been doing that now forabout three years.
Before that, I was in the fireservice, spent seven years as a
volunteer cadet volunteer andthen got hired full time in a
small department in my hometown,worked my way up and when I

(05:04):
left I was the assistant chiefof operations and training and
transitioned to the mentalhealth world.
So there's a lot more withinthat 30-year career, obviously.
But really proud of one of thethings that I started about 13
years ago, I founded theSpringfield Area Memorial Stair

(05:27):
Climb.
It's a memorial stair climb forthose that were killed on 9-11.
And I officially turned thatover to the next coordinator, if
you will, a couple of years ago.
So I founded and led that for10 years and when I started it
it was me and my wife in thekitchen table just putting it

(05:49):
together, and when I left therewas 10 coordinators handling
different sections of the eventand 60 volunteers every year
that come in to help us set upand tear down, and thousands of
climbers over the years.
So that's probably one of mymore highlighted things in my
career.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
That's really awesome .
Was there a particularattachment to 9-11 for you?

Speaker 3 (06:13):
Legitimately.
It was just one of those thingswhere I was in the shower and
thinking I needed to do more forthe fire service and what could
I do that wasn't already beingdone in my area, and the
originally thing started asdoing something to support a
brother that had been diagnosedwith MS and in our area bike

(06:34):
rides are a big thing for MS andthat kind of just evolved into
doing the stair climb and Ireally thought, man, if my own
crew shows up that first year,I'll be happy.
and unfortunately we had a localline of duty deaths just a
month before our first air climb.
So in conjunction with themoney we raised for the national

(06:56):
fallen firefighters foundation,we also raised money on the
local level for matt blankenshipso I'm sorry about the line of
doubt.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
That's unfortunate that it's so common in your
field and, yeah, certainlyhappens a lot.
The one question I came up withwhen I was listening to what
you said, I'm like you know, I,I don't know, like I know
firefighters and no disrespectto uh, my uh cop friends, but
firefighters tend to be a littlecloser to their emotions than

(07:25):
the police.
I think they, you know, the,you know talking around the
table and all that makes it alot easier, and shitting on
people's chili and stuff likethat is even better.
But um, at the end of the day,I think there's a lot more
talkative, the more talkativebunch.
But what made you decide whenthey gee, will it cursed?
I want to do this for a living.
I mean to me like it's notexactly the glamour transfer

(07:48):
from fire to mental health.
I'm not bitching about my job,guys, before you send all the
fucking letters, I love my job,but you know it's not exactly
like oh, what's the secondlowest paid masters?
That's what I'm going to do.

Speaker 3 (08:02):
That's what I'm going to do.
What is?
That's what I'm gonna do.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
That's what I'm gonna do.
What is the student loan debtto income ratio?
Oh, that, that's the one.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
Yeah, I don't want to do philosophy I'd be too crazy,
right?
Uh yeah, and looking at a phdprogram here recently I said, oh
look, I can get anothermaster's along the way and my
life's like what are you gonnado with a third master's?
And I'm like that's a greatpoint.
I don't know how I made thejump.
You know it's interesting.
I always really kind of pridedmyself when I was on the

(08:32):
apparatus being aggressive andyou know, the best way to be
safe on the fire ground is to besmart and aggressive and really
kind of prided myself on notonly saying, hey, this is not
only the only way to do it, thisis just a way.
Up until I had one of mycompany officers I'd gotten

(08:54):
promoted to battalion chief andbeen a battalion for a while and
one of my company officers.
We just got done with our OCMEDfitness evaluations evaluations
for the year.
For a lot of us that's the onlytime we went to the doctor.
I don't need to get my ownprimary care doctor, I got one
that comes to the firehouse.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
We're set um, I mean I'm not paying extra money,
right?
What's that I was gonna saythen?
Firefighters live such ahealthy lifestyle with their
eating and their behaviors andeverything else, so I know, I
know you don't need it.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
I, I understand tactical athletes yeah exactly
so, um, achmed doctor comes in,we do our normal thing, my
company officer it's about 11o'clock at night.
Uh, when I was on the on shift,I really just I held all of my
stuff towards the end of the dayso I could interact with the
crews and stuff.
And he comes in and says, yeah,I kind of want to talk to you,

(09:49):
so close the door and we have agreat relationship, and he tells
me that he's thinking aboutkilling himself.
Whoa, I really prided myself onbeing able to help firefighters
navigate time management issues, performance issues.
This was not on my, on my realm, so we kind of talked a little
bit and I said, uh, did youmention it to the doc?

(10:11):
And he said, oh yeah, yeah, he,he pulled out his suicide
checklist out of his walletsorry for rolling my eyes, but
went through the list, patted myguy on the shoulder and said
you should probably go talk tosomebody.
Just patted my guy on theshoulder and said you should
probably go talk to somebody.
So my desire to be supportiveand helpful for him knowing how
big this was and this, mind you,is circa 2016-ish so I started

(10:38):
doing a little research, starteddoing a little reading, a
little finding out what I canfind out, and I kind of stumbled
onto the fact that I have a bitof a mental health problem
myself.
So that kind of got me on apath and always in my career
I've really enjoyed the trainingside and created and was a lead

(10:59):
instructor for a regionaltraining academy here with other
area departments and my owncrews, my own departments,
creating developmental plans,helping people be successful at
the next levels.
So frustrated of the repetitiveissues that these folks aren't
ready for the next level, oh, Iguess we'll just magically just

(11:20):
hope it'll get better.
So I looked at that and that'sreally where I kind of got my
basis at for a lot of my thingsand really just have a unique
opportunity or perspective, Ishould say, to take really
complex concepts and make themeasy to understand for everybody
.
You know I use it in my sessionsregularly because not everyone

(11:43):
speaks therapistese and if youcan understand a little bit of
this, it's not overlycomplicated.
I'm not a gatekeeper.
I share with my clients as muchas I can, as much as I want,
especially my emergencyresponder clients.
They want to active participate.
I have no business tellingpeople what to do in sessions,

(12:06):
but I can help you if you'reopen to it, and if you're not,
that's okay.
I'm just going to poke you andchallenge you and build a
relationship with you.
But I did all that in the fireservice too.
So all those things really feltkind of normal and natural to
me.
And people asked me if I wasgoing to go to the peer route,
maybe.
And as soon as I had my mindseton it, I was going to go to the
peer route, maybe, and as soonas I had my mindset on it I was

(12:26):
going to be a LPC, which is whatthey are here in Missouri so
that kind of how I got startedand I would agree with you and
and and certainly not a, not aweird competition of traumatic
shit, but in my experience bothtaking, taking classes, working
with clients, I think themisconception is is because the

(12:49):
fire service works in teams, wetalk about our feelings a lot.
No, we do use that fire servicelanguage to start processing
that, but I work with way moreother disciplines than I do with
the fire service.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
And it's also like again, please and I think that
what I'm, Adam, I don't want tospeak for you, but I'm pretty
sure that's what you would havesaid we're all for peer support
networks, we're all for crisisintervention, stress management,
we're all for that, but there'salso other stuff that's needed
and that's what I want to makesure I because I've heard people
say, well, you push therapy andI have a program I work with

(13:26):
that's a little different, Like,oh so you don't like peer
support?
No, I never said that.
I just said that peer supportain't for everyone, that's all,
and my program may not be foranyone else, and that is fine
too.
It's making sure that you havemore options than less.
So I'm going to put that outthere, and I think that that's
what our emergency medicalpersonnel in general whether it

(13:48):
be police, fire I include my ERnurses, my correctional staff in
there and even some of theemergency crisis clinicians that
I've worked with, and let's notforget my friends the EMT and
paramedic and dispatch they allhave that problem of I don't
have enough options.
Well, I'm going to give you ashitload of options and you
better take one of them.

(14:08):
So that's what I want to makesure I mentioned because I know
you probably feel the same waybecause I never want us to be
perceived as putting down oneprogram over the other.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
No, I'm just merely and I appreciate the clarity
merely sharing my own personalexperience.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
Oh, I didn't get that from you for the record.
I just want to put it out therebecause Absolutely yeah,
absolutely.

Speaker 3 (14:28):
I think more options are better than less.
Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
And then when you have a doctor, this is where the
you know.
One of the things I emphasizein pretty much all my podcasts
is that you need culturalcompetency.
And if Adam came to me and saidprivately, steve, I think I'm
suicidal.
You know, the worst thing Icould ever do to Adam is grab a
sheet and go, okay, what is,what's your symptoms?

(14:54):
And like, right away, adam willshut down because I just proved
that I have no competency.
And instead of inquiring aboutthe real stuff, you inquired
about what is going to make thechecklist and one of the things.
I know that a lot offirefighters, police and
everyone else I just talkedabout the EMT world that's what
they despise who has a pad inthe paper and asking the

(15:16):
questions that are rehearsed.
I don't know if that's yourexperience, but that's certainly
my experience.

Speaker 3 (15:21):
It is certainly my experience on the receiving end
as a firefighter seeking mentalhealth, and I also, to prove
your point and I think it'sreally important to share this,
I still refer to that therapistbecause they are a good
therapist.
For a lot of people, right,this is not a good therapy, not

(15:43):
for what I needed.
Lot of people Right, this isnot a good therapy, not for what
I needed.
So I took a break, maybe longerthan I probably should, cause
if anyone's going to win therapyI mean I know you can't win
therapy, but if we can, it'sgoing to be me.
So it's kind of one of thosethings where I took a break and
really just tried to be moreintentional, more curious, try

(16:05):
to ask myself the questions thatthe therapist, the certified
first responder, extraordinairetherapists didn't ask, and I was
also spending time about whythose important, those questions
were important to me.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
So yeah, and I think you talked and you know I'm
happy you did that.
You were there for thatfirefighter and I needed the
support and you know I know manyfirefighters and police and
everyone else who have beenthere for their colleagues that
way and shout out to all of youbecause while you're good at
what you do, you're not fuckingtrained into doing that.
And so, from my perspective,thank you for you and anyone who

(16:45):
I know and I don't knowlistening to this right now,
because that's one hell of achallenge.
I'm trained into that stuff,but it's still once in a while
we're like, oh, it's a punch inthe face once in a while and I
can handle it, don't get mewrong, but you know doesn't mean
that it's not a punch in theface.
That's yeah, yeah.
So you know, like you said,you've been in, you know the the
part that I, I, you Doesn'tmean that it's not a punch in

(17:07):
the face, yeah.
So, like you said, you've beenin the part that I.
What I find interesting is yousaid you've been in therapy.
Yeah, and you've had some badexperiences.
Obviously Not that they werebad therapists, but this is what
I tell people.
I said bad experience, I didn'tsay bad therapist.
I have a lot of colleagues thatdon't do my job, but they're
excellent therapists.

(17:27):
But they couldn't handle afirst responder making a joke
about them, saying that it'sunprofessional where I fucking
laugh because I know it's partof the exchange with the guy and
that's not something.
You know this or you don't, andthat's it.
That's just that simple.
I started in the police servicewhen I was doing the mental
health part.
I've never been again.

(17:48):
Those who are new to thepodcast, I don't steal valor.
I've never been a firstresponder, but I sat in many
vehicles and what I you, the guyonce said to me is the best
advice he's like if someone madea joke or something and he's
like hey, they like you.
Like how do you know they'remaking fun of you?
If they don't fucking like you,they will not talk to you, and
then that's when you should benervous.

(18:09):
It always stuck with me thatthat's what is a good indication
.
So when my clients come in andmake fun of me, I know that
means all right, I've got them,they I'm on, they know I'm on
their side.
It's when they start gettingsilent and being super serious
and I'm like shit, I lost him,maybe Right.
What do you mean by that,though?
I want to hear your point ofview on that.

(18:30):
What do you mean?
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (18:31):
Yeah, I always say maybe, because I never wanted to
sign or pass a judgment.
I want to be more curious, andthey may shut down because they
lost me, but they also may beshutting down because you're
getting ready to tell mesomething really hard that we've
been working towards.
So if I have a little nuggetthat I like to pass on to people
, particularly other therapiststhat work with this population

(18:52):
and I'm a big fan of saying whatI see and see what I get If I
have a feeling about something,I'm just going to ask.
I'd rather just ask and let youtell me, and not just your
words.
It has your body language, your, your gaze, your, your
everything.
I'm looking at all of it becauseif it's too hard to tell me and

(19:15):
I don't offer you respite thework is going to come slow.
But I don't have to leave mypeople that I work with in the
ditch for us to do good work.
We don't have to always talkabout the really hard stuff,
because I'm here for all of it.
I want you to tell me what youdon't think has been important
enough for therapy.
No, I want to hear all of it.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
So, yeah, that's why I say maybe, and I think that
you know.
I think you're absolutely right, by the way.
Thank you for correcting me onthat.
It makes sense to me.
The other part too is I'm a bighockey fan.
I'm in the Northeast, here inMassachusetts.
A lot of the firefighter firstresponders in general they tend
to be sports fan.
We am a Montreal Canadiens fanbecause I'm born and raised in

(19:58):
Montreal, so in Boston it's notalways popular, but they.
But when we exchange for thatfor 20 minutes, sometimes we'll
get little nuggets of who theyare.
Oh, I used to go to a gameright before my beating from my
dad and let the and like oh,okay, dad beat me and I'm
exaggerating, but you get thepoint.
Yeah, even in talking about youknow, I call it the round table

(20:19):
.
We're just shooting the shit.
You get information if you're agood therapist, yeah, yeah, I
think.
I think that's what's importanttoo, because if I sat there and
I told a first responder,please tell me more about your
feelings, they'll be like uh,yeah, I'm pretty good at fucking
masking that shit.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
Wrong question next and honestly, if in total
transparency I think that's whenI look back on that, because I
knew you was going to ask methat question about therapy and
navigating some other groups andFacebook and I think you and I
are in the same clinicians forfirst responder groups I was
really kind of reflecting onthat experience.

(20:55):
I knew that question was goingto come up and now, looking back
on it, I know what it was forme.
I didn't want to let thattherapist down.
I was doing the same thing Iwas doing in the firehouse Wow,
like I was sharing some thingsjust enough and colluding with

(21:15):
him.
So the the shortcoming for me inthat relationship or in that
and I and I want to be clear heis a very skilled and a very
talented and is very graciousand generous with his time and
experience with our field inthis particular area for me, I

(21:38):
needed him to be maybe a littlemore therapist-y and little less
focused on the relationship,and this will be something for
our therapist listeners who workin this population.
We already have a lot of trustbuilt up because Bob told me he
was good.
I'm going to him because Itrust fucking Bob.

(21:58):
I don't need you to sit thereand go.
Oh man, you guys do such a goodjob.
I sure do love the firedebarters.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
I don't need all that , because I've already got that.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
That's why I'm here.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
Thank you.
You're America's heroes.
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (22:13):
Yeah yeah, here's a cookie, great, thank you.
It's kind of like here in theMidwest If I let you out in
traffic, don't take the extratime to wave at me.
Just fucking go, just go go.
I've already let you out.

Speaker 2 (22:24):
Thank you, you're welcome thank you, no, no, go,
go go yeah, go, go, go.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
I got places.
I'd like to go.
But in that, in that experience, I needed him to be more
curious.
I needed him to ask morequestions.
I needed him to say why, after30 years, this call fucking you
up.
Why now?
And it was oh well, because I'man Enneagram 8.

(22:50):
And because I already am prettyself-aware because of my own
experiences and I didn't knowthat at the time.
I just knew I was reallyself-aware but I didn't know why
.
And once he hit the target andonce we kind of reprocessed, we
were so good in therapy that twoand a half sessions later he

(23:10):
was like you look like you'redoing pretty good.
Do you need to stay the wholehour?
And I was just getting ready tostart at my first job as a
therapist and I said you know,honestly, doc, I paid for the
whole hour.
Won't you tell me what I'mgetting ready to get into and
give me some of your perspectiveand insight?
So we bullshitted the last halfhour.

(23:32):
He says well, if you want tocome back, you can just reach
out to me.
And I said you know, let's justgo ahead and make an
appointment for a month out,just to see my.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
My therapist is brilliant and I haven't stolen
this one yet, but this is myfavorite one, whether you're
thinking about coming in weekly,bi-weekly, monthly, and he
knows I've been with him foryears and he knows I know his
trick.
But what he does is is like doyou want to reschedule?
Yeah, and one day I'm like, whywould I not want to reschedule?

(24:01):
I'm a fucked up human being, Ineed help.
And he's like, yeah, but thatgave you a choice.
Yep, and I'm like, fuck, that'sreally good.
So usually I say I still say,uh, when do you want to
reschedule?
But I really want to changethat, because you know the other
part too, particularly again,our group of first responders.

(24:21):
Giving them choices sometimescan be much more empowering than
anything else.

Speaker 3 (24:28):
Honestly.
I mean, if we were to speakseveral months ago, that
probably would have been helpfulin saved me a lot of money in
therapy, because that's how longit took me to kind of come to
that.
I want, I want choice.
I want my clients to havechoice.
It's really important for me tohave choice right, and what I

(24:48):
like and I say something similarto that is do you want to come
back?
Yeah, see's perfect.
Do you want to come back?
Cause I'll operate a lot from aintersubjective space.
I'm very relational in the room.
I don't give advice.
It's not my business to giveyou advice.
If you come into my office andsaid I'm going to jump out the

(25:08):
window and I'm going to aim forthe bushes Cause I think I can
make it, and Adam would say canI share a perspective though,
cause there might be some thingsyou might not have considered
Right, and a lot of times, a lotof our emergency responders, a
lot of the normal I say normalthe general populace operates on
a right or wrong spectrumCalled civilians, yeah,

(25:31):
civilians, yeah, the others thiswill get some of the listeners
uh, the muggles can we call?
Can we call them muggles?
Okay, I like that, yeah, yeah,but I think we operate on this
spectrum of good and bad andwhen things don't quite align
all good or all bad, we get kindof discombobulated in our

(25:56):
system and we can notice thatfeeling and somatics has been a
huge assistance for my clients,especially the emergency
responders, and I teach themeverything that I've been taught
.
This has gone to a conference,so if it is helpful for them, I
want them to be able to use it,and it's been huge.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
It's been huge so somatics, I think somatics, I
want to get back to that.
The other part too.
You talked about body language.
I'm just going to share.
But I want to get back tosomatics.
As I started my job years ago, Iworked at a parole office with
the parolees, and they're notexactly the most I want to talk
to you type.

(26:41):
But what I learned is to readbody language extremely well.
And, lo and behold, whenever Imake an observation about their
body, again I read a lot.
But once I read the bodylanguage, they were able to talk
more because I picked up on thebody language and I think that
that's so key as a goodtherapist to also pick it up.

(27:02):
You know like, oh, let's talkabout your parents and for those
of you who are not on YouTube,I'll dictate what I just did
Shoulder slump.
Okay, I hit a nerve, let's talkabout it.
And I'm exaggerating.
It's not always that.
Sometimes it's subtle, but Ibelieve that body language is
also important.
But I want to hear more aboutsomatic Because for my audience,

(27:22):
somatic that sounds like apsychobabble word.
In my opinion, it does.
But maybe let's break down thepsychobabble bullshit into
something real.
Can you tell me more about it?

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Yeah, so when we think about somatics we just
want to really want to thinkabout our body how does our body
feel?
And the very famous book that Irecommend a lot for my
emergency responder clients who,just for clarity, is police,
fire, pre-hospital care andtelecommunicators, and, as you

(27:59):
eloquently put, there's a lot ofpeople that can fit in that
classification.
I typically don't use ageneralization if I'm talking to
a specific group, but I thinkit is important to I'm not
talking about ER nurses orsocial workers or people that
respond outside of that first 15minute window of an emergency.
But when we are navigatingdifficult feelings or difficult

(28:23):
situations or experiencing.
Sitting here on your podcast,you probably notice me shifting
around a lot in my chair.
It's not my favorite chair.
I'm in my home office but alsoI was noticing some emotion
because I didn't really want tolet go of tears within the first
10 minutes of the podcast.

(28:44):
I just took a deep breathbecause I could feel it coming
up right here and, as you weretalking, I'm noticing this
feeling in my chest going well,why do I?
Why do I feel this?
And and this is real time I'vedone this long enough to know.
Okay, why am I feeling this way?
Because I don't want anybody tothink less of me and then I go
yeah, that's not a real.

(29:05):
That's not a real thing.
And even if they do think lessof you, I don't really care
right I like the words then what?

Speaker 2 (29:14):
but but anyway, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
Well, actually I do care, and that's where it starts
is recognizing my own shit towhere it begins with I do care,
I do want you to think that I'mgood, I do want you to think
that I know what I'm talkingabout and I can impact the
community, both emergencyresponder and the clinician

(29:37):
world.
But that's not that.
Judgment may or may not come,but that's going to come from my
me doing, not how I'mpresenting.
So the challenge in that aspectis noticing the feeling,
because that's the check enginelight for our body.
If our check engine light comeson in our car, we don't slow
down unless we think we can makeit and then floor that son of a

(29:58):
gun and we're going to make it.
But when we see that checkengine light come on our dash,
we kind of scroll all of ourgauges on our dash.
And that's what I'mcommunicating to people is that
when you notice that feeling inyour chest, your stomach, your
jaw, your shoulders, I want youto slow down and go.
Man, I'm at home, I'm in thesafest place in my world and my

(30:20):
environment.
Why am I feeling anxious rightnow?
So I take a big polyvagalbreath, four seconds in, six
seconds out, like I'm blowingthrough a straw.
You can call it tacticalpolyvagal breath if you want, I
guess if that makes people feelbetter and I start slowing
myself down because my body canget me amped up if I need to.

(30:40):
My breath can get me amped upif I need to.
I'm getting jacked, I'm readyto go, but I can also slow
myself down by being veryintentional with my breath.
So I noticed the feeling.
The feeling is always going tobe about like from I say always,
maybe from about here down toyour belly button, because the
vagus nerve, it's closelyrelated to that.

(31:01):
But if you read, man, ourstandard of a book, the body
keeps the score.
This is the some of the stuffthat he's talking about.
The answers to the tests areout there.
We just need to know where weneed to be looking at.
I don't want to build clientsfor a lifetime.
I want people to learn skillsso they don't have to come back,
so they can manage theday-to-day better or and I'm

(31:26):
sorry, not better differently,so they have the experience that
they want.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
Well, better subjectively.
How's that?
I would agree with that If it'sbetter for them.
Right, because I think that theother part too that you just
said very good explanation ofsomatic.
I think that that's good.
Literally, probably within thefirst 10 minute of every session
with my therapist, we actuallygo through all right, where are

(31:52):
you feeling right now?
Anything in your, your body,can you breathe it out?
And I do that stuff andhopefully people know me enough
that it's not like this is notwoo shit, that doesn't exist.
It's all real stuff and itreally works.
Fantastic, although I curse you, joe.
You heard me, joe.
He doesn't listen to my podcast.

(32:13):
He has no interest, probably,but Joe does that to me and I
really appreciate him becauseit's I need someone to remind me
of.
Did you pay attention to yourbody?
You talk about body keeps thescore.
I think that's one hell of abook, but I find that people
either love it or hate it, butnothing in between.
And typically I think peoplewho want to recognize some of

(32:37):
the trauma and is also able totake the heaviness of the book,
they'll be able to really enjoythe book.
But if you're like, you getinto denial or what's this crap
and this and that.
Probably not for you, anyway,probably not at the right spot.

Speaker 3 (32:49):
There's nothing wrong with that, just not at the
right spot, just not ready yet.

Speaker 2 (32:53):
That's it you know I think that that's the other part
too is, you know, it says ithasn't happened in a while.
Knock on wood because it'sgoing to happen, because I said
so.
But I remember a time where Ihad someone will not name the
service can you just cure me?
I'm like, oh, let me go get thethe wand.
Oh shit, it's upstairs.
Oh well, I can't cure you likeI've never cured a human being

(33:14):
in my freaking life.
I've given them a lot offucking tools in order to cure
themselves, or that's what theyperceive it as, but I've never
cured a human being.
I think that that's one of thethings that I'm happy to have a
firefighter slash therapist heresaying the same exact thing as
me.
We're not here to cure anyone.
I I've never cured a humanbeing, but I will help you and
give you the tools that,hopefully, will help you feel

(33:35):
better I.

Speaker 3 (33:38):
I use a similar phrasing and when they ask,
because the questions usually uh, can you fix me?
My well, first of all, you'renot fucking broken because,
honestly, you're probably doingthe things that you want to be
doing in other areas.
You're already doing thosethings, either at the job or at
home or someplace else.
We just need to explore whyit's so dang difficult to get

(34:01):
those things applied into theareas that you want, to get them
applied in right and how do wedo?
that fuck, if I know we're goingto have a conversation and
through that conversationbecause we talked about that
it's about that relationship,it's about the little pieces and
here's a funny story um, the,the, the firefighter listeners

(34:24):
will, uh, will appreciate this,and the therapist will too.
But I'll just tell on myself alittle bit.
You know, as you're firststarting out as a therapist, you
got to kind of navigate yourown language a little bit and
figure out some things, becauseyou don't want it to be
automatic or robotic, you wantit to be more genuine and
authentic.
So we were talking earlierabout.

(34:44):
You know, there's a lot of riskfor the middle in just a normal
everyday conversation.
If, if, if you're listening, andwhen my clients are having a
question and I'm taking thatquestion on, like hey, can we
just fix the thing?
Can we just go right?

(35:04):
I know exactly what it is, canwe just get there?
It's like, yeah, we can't,because your system is designed
to keep you safe.
You haven't built up the skillsyet for us to go through the
front door.
So if you just let me come inyour back door, hang on a second
.
That's not what I meant.
Actually.
We're, we're going to comethrough the side door, we're

(35:26):
going to come to the side door.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
Hey, whatever man, you invited me to a sauna, I'm
just whatever man.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
I accept everyone, right, so I, you know, learning
that language.
Um, and my non-emergencyresponder clients, you know
they're like oh yeah, that makestotal sense.
And if I got a good, solidemergency responder clients are
going to be like you're going tocome in my what?
Yeah, no, no, no, no, let'sback up.

(35:51):
So trying to communicate tothem that the most direct route
may not be a straight linebecause your system rarely is
but anyway, right, your systemis going to protect this, right.
But if you've got to tell thisstory, you're going to want to
complete that story.
You're going to graze over thetop of that to get to this.
This is what I'm interested inand I think too many times

(36:14):
therapists are so therapists inthe emergency responder world
are so confident that they knowwhat's going on.
Get really narrowly focused.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
Right, well, it's all .
Trauma, right, it's all, it'sall.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Not today.
Satan, You're not going to baitme in today.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
It's not all trauma, for the record.
We're just being facetious here.
Yes, no, and I think you'reabsolutely right and that's why,
like for me, when I haveyounger clinicians who say, hey,
what do you think I should doto really learn, I said go work
two years in the crisis team,mental health crisis team, any
crisis team works.
And well, what if I don't likeit?

(36:55):
Hate it for two years, doesn'tmatter, but you'll be able to
deal with anyone that comes infront of you, cause I've helped.
I've worked with athree-year-old in an ER and I
worked with a 98 year old.
And think about the middleground rich, poor, indifferent,
whatever.
I've worked with all.
But you also learn thatsometimes you know like there's
a first responder once said tome well, you know, when I solve

(37:17):
problems, pretty quickly, Ibrought them to the emergency
room and they're okay, and I'mlike, no, that's not the story.
There's a story that goes withthat Cause, if someone needs
their foot amputated, there'ssurgeries, there's complications
, there's cleanup, and then theygot to learn how to walk before
they get fitted with a book.
There's like four that youdon't need to deal with because
you dealt with the problem infront of you.

(37:38):
But therapy is the same way.
I'll deal with the problem infront of me.
That doesn't mean there's other15 steps that are going to come
up in a few minutes, but beinga crisis clinician, you get that
.
Who wants quick?
And then you say, okay, thiswas the quick version.
Remember, there's a longversion.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
Yeah, yeah.
I communicate that same kind ofexpectation with all of my
clients in a way that it's likeI want you to get your roof
fixed, that's some breathingroom through your normal week.
And then, once we get somebreathing room and get some new
skills developed, some newresources, then let's look at

(38:14):
the foundation to see why theroof keeps leaking and you're
going to want to leave, you'regoing to get through the
honeymoon phase and you're likeI took eight days of medicine.
I'm feeling pretty good, Ididn't need all 10 days.
And then the snapback happens.
Then we get a test.
We get tested Part of myinternship and then we get a

(38:35):
test.
We get tested.
Part of my internship I would goout to a men's retreat or,
excuse me, a men's treatmentcenter.
And I do believe, because of mytime in the fire service, my
time as an instructor, presenter, all those things, my first
intern site said hey, we'd lovefor you to teach anything you
want to teach out at the men'shouse or the women's house.

(38:59):
We had both and I said great,just tell me what.
What do you want me to teach?
And they said anything you want.
I said, awesome, I'm so excited.
What do you want me to teach,and this is where the structure
of the fire service started kindof trinkling in on the
difficulty of the paradigm ofchoice.
I'll do better if you just tellme what to do.

(39:22):
So I ended up teaching for awhole lot of weeks.
I don't know how many monthsnow, but during my two semesters
of internship taught conflictresolution and communication
skills and a lot of that hasevolved into a class that I
offer to fire departments.

(39:44):
We'll be rolling out this yearof the fourth floor perspective,
will be rolling out this yearof the fourth floor perspective.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
Okay, real talk for mental health in the fire
service and we talk about thebig f word a lot.
You know feelings.
What?

Speaker 3 (39:58):
no, no, no, fuck, right, fuck, fuck yeah, oh, you
should see the clinician'seyeballs phrase when I go.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
we're going to talk about the F word today and the
clinician's like well, right,and you know it's funny, is you
bring so many good points?
That's the other part, too iswhen I run a group and it's a
first responder group, one ofthe things that they love to do
is they we talk about differentthings all the time, but not
every week we do this, but oncein a while, like I'll share,

(40:27):
we'll talk about something.
They're like like how wouldyour fellow therapist react to
this?
I'm like in horror, in absolutefucking horror.
Um, and again, that doesn'tmean they're not good therapists
, for the record again.
Well, we, I want to make surewe say that we're not shitting
on therapists.
It's just not their skill set.
You know, because I, becausethere's a running joke in my

(40:48):
group because one day they I wascleaning, because I'm a sole
proprietor of my company, so Iwas cleaning, and he's like oh,
what are you doing?
I'm like well, you know, I'mthe ceo president, secretary and
maid, and so we walk into thegroup after he goes sorry, steve
, for the last 10 minutes I'vebeen picturing you in a fucking
french maid outfit and it'sbecome a running joke.
And I keep on feeding the jokeand people are like and I've

(41:12):
said that to other therapistsand like they tell you they want
to see in a French maid outfit,and I'm like you don't get it,
it's okay, you don't need to getit, I get it, you don't get it,
that's okay.
And I think that that's exactlywhat you're saying is,
sometimes we you get in theimmediacy is okay, you can be
upset about it, but when youthink about it, it's a really
warm setting.
Getting back to the point ofwhat we were talking about, I

(41:34):
love EMDR.
I'm an EMDR provider myself.
But if you come in and say Ijust want to do EMDR, I said
okay, I'll give you someone whothinks that's going to solve all
your fucking problems, becauseEMDR itself does not solve
people's problems.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
They'll make the trauma something they can go
through a lot easier.
But if you don't have the skillset prior or post doesn't
really fucking matter, right,right, yeah, I, uh, I do get
some of those and I'm I'mfinishing up my certification in
emdr and I only pursued that,really, because the site that I
was working at was trainingother trainers and stuff.
So I'm a blue collar guythrough and through.
So you're gonna offer me upsomething for free.
I'm probably gonna take it.

(42:15):
So, um, I'm a sucker for at-shirt.
Like, I'll do just about it.
I'll do a lot of push-ups for at-shirt.
We go to FDIC and some of thoseconferences and, yeah, there's
a lot of free t-shirts beingthrown away, right, so right, um
, I think what's and some ofthat stuff is, it doesn't have
to be hard, it can just berelational.

(42:37):
And I sit across from my clientsand I communicate a similar
message, and it doesn't matteremergency responder or not.
And it's an interesting dynamicbecause, when I was still on
the job, I'm working with someof my people that I'm seeing on
the fire ground.
I'm seeing them in the therapyroom and on the fire ground.
But what about duality, dualrelationship and all those other

(42:57):
things?
Well, it's kind of simple.
I don't have any businessbringing up that shit here on
the fire ground.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Correct.

Speaker 3 (43:04):
If I'm a battalion chief or if I'm an assistant
chief, I'm not going to go.
Hey Bob, I'm not going to dothat.
I got a fire to run, right.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
Right Now.
I say, bob, tell me about yourfeelings.

Speaker 3 (43:18):
Right.
So now Bob needs to talk to me.
I'm going to listen and I'mgoing to redirect because I'm at
the time or the place, but I'mnot going to sit there and shun
them for it and I'm certainly,uh, not going to not see them,
because the fair amount of myemergency responder clients are
only seeing me because they knowme.

Speaker 2 (43:39):
Right, they know me we've been on the line together
and that's why I think thatduality that you talk about, I
call it the gray zone.
I think that that's the grayzone of liability or the gray
zone of ethics.
If I go and I see Johnny andwork, johnny works with Jane in
the same department and Janewants to suddenly go therapy, I

(44:02):
said, okay, jane, you've got areferral from someone in the
department, so it's obviously.
We're not going to pretend thatdoesn't exist.
If you're going to ask medoesn't exist, yep.
If you're going to ask me aboutjohnny, this is over.
I'm going to stop you andthere's no like, there's no
warning.
I'm done with you.
You're leaving, yep, and samething.
Since johnny referred you,johnny everest asks about you.
It's over.

(44:23):
We cut it off.
And that's how I keep thatethical boundary, because I'm
not here to fucking gossip.
Firefighters gossip really well, I'll let you fucking handle
that one, but for me I don'tgossip about my clients.
And if you're willing, if youwant to come in here and do that
shit, I know there's no like.
The same thing with the group.
People will share stuff in thegroup, but my rule there's a few

(44:44):
rules we don't say sorry.
And the other thing, too, is wecan say anything in this room.
Yeah, it's okay, you leave thisroom and you talk about it to
someone else.
I will never talk to you again.
Never come to my group.
I'm done with you becausethat's someone else's story.
You want to tell your story?
Go ahead, that's your story totell.
But you do not tell anybody'sstory, even if he's from oh,

(45:05):
he's a department two hours away.
I don't care.
You do not share other people'sshit and I have, yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
I have people driving four and five hours to connect
with me who do not want toconnect with me on a virtual
platform and confidentiality.
You know, obviously, the,that's the.
It was huge, it's huge for me.
It was when I was going totherapy and it was, uh, and it

(45:33):
still, is still going to therapy, good for you.
Every, every time, I every uh,it's once a month for two and a
half hours and uh, yeah, that'sjust how I work and that's how
my brain works.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
So if you ever worked that way, but go ahead.
I just want to put that inthere because some people don't
want to ask, ask ask, always ask.

Speaker 3 (45:56):
Uh, unexpressed expectations is premeditated
resentment.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
Jesus Christ.
That's a quote right there.
That's a great quote.
I probably stole it fromsomebody, but no one.
No one knows who it was.

Speaker 3 (46:08):
Yeah, there you go.
That's why I used I got thepleasure of presenting at FDIC a
couple of years ago and I havea leadership.
It was on leadership and mentalhealth and kind of an all
encompassing, and I have a quoteon the on my presentation that
said leadership is kind of likepornography.
It's difficult to define but weall know what it looks like.

(46:29):
Yeah, but, um, I think thatconfidentiality piece is big.
You kind of spoke about this onsuicide.
I have responders and folksthat will ask, will share with
me they're feeling suicidal,they're feeling like they, um,
you know, want to hurtthemselves.
I asked very explicitly, very,very directly I've asked that

(46:49):
question a lot of times in mycareer, in both of my careers,
but I've learned to ask.
The question is do you want tokill yourself or do you just not
want to be here right now?
Because those things aredifferent, right, and as soon as
we kind of navigate thatbecause you can see the, you're
not sure, and then, when I'm nottrying to trick them, to call

(47:10):
the cops to come get them in themeantime, I'm not a big fan of
that, by the way Can we justtalk about why you're feeling
the way that you're feeling andI promise you before you leave,
I'm going to feel good about youleaving and you're going to
feel good about you leaving, orI'm going to have somebody come
and get you.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
Right, and I think the other part too.
I'm with you about thehospitals.
Yeah, oh yeah.
One of the things I tell mostof my clients now for the last
few years is like, if you tellme you're homicidal, suicidal,
you know the ones we have totalk about.
Yeah, I tell them.
I said, but I've heard all ofthem at one point in my career,
so I'm not gonna bat an eyelashand the last thing I ever want

(47:47):
to do is send you to a hospital.
That's the last, absolute thing.
Hospitals have good intentions.
Unfortunately, they don't havethe resources.
So I'm not putting downhospitals, I'm just saying that
it's not.
You're better off staying athome and coming in twice a week
with me, or coming once a weekfor two hours or whatever.
Always ask, by the way.
But I think that that's what I.

(48:10):
I'm the same way abouthospitals.
So I get it and I I say topeople that we all have
expressions that we usesometimes.
You know I've had clients wholike some days I just want to
fucking kill myself.
Then you see the go to youtube.
They open their eyes.
I'm like, yeah, don't worry, Iunderstand the difference
between an expression and yousaying I bought a gun, I these
bullets and at 2 o'clock todayI'm fucking offing myself.

(48:33):
Okay that's different.
Can you hold?

Speaker 3 (48:34):
this note for me.
I'll see you later.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
I know the difference .
And they always laugh and like,oh, you get it.
I'm like, yeah, I'm not wasting.
Frankly, I don't want to wastethe hospital, I don't want to
waste your energy.
More importantly, police andfire.
As much as I joke around aboutcertain things, they're busy.
You're fucking little.
Section 12, as we call it inMassachusetts I know they have
all different names, differentstates.
It's really sometimes a fuckingburden for them to do.

(49:01):
I'd rather keep the resourcesin the community, but again,
I'll do it if I have to.
My other line that I say is butif you leave here and you still
want to bomb an airport,believe me, I'll tackle you
myself.
Hold you down.
If you hate me for the rest ofmy life, I'll live for myself.
I'm okay with that.
I'm okay with that, and mostpeople respond to that too, and

(49:21):
I think that what you justdescribed is exactly what I
think the therapists who workwith first responders get.
Be real, be yourself, callpeople on their shit sometimes
and sometimes let people havewhatever they have to do, and
it's hard to explain when to dowhat, but with enough experience
you get significantly better.

Speaker 3 (49:45):
It's not about being perfect, it's about being
present.
I don't know what's going toconnect with this individual.
I'm listening to everything.
I'm not.
I'm not jumping on the lowhanging fruit, because that
that's not why we're here.
Um, and you know, early on in mycareer as a therapist uh, cause
, Adam had a bit of a reputationin the firehouse and, uh, I had

(50:06):
a strong desire that peopleperformed at their best ability,
their best ability, their bestability.
And if you couldn't, it didn'tmean I didn't like you.
I think you're a great person.
I just think you need to be abetter firefighter and I'm going
to help you, Not like I'masking you to do it yourself.
And you know, with my clients,all of my clients, they have my

(50:27):
personal cell phone number.
You need something?
You shoot me a text, you cancall me, but I'm probably not
going to answer that phone call.
I'm a Gen Xer.
I'm definitely not going toanswer that phone call.
But if you don't have anexpectation that I get to you
right away and I can show up howI want to show up, because it's
also important for me after 30years of starting to feel like a

(50:49):
human again to continue feelinglike a human and it costs too
much If I show up for you, Steve, and I'm sitting there trying

(51:09):
to drive and text because it'sbeen six hours and I don't want
you to feel let down.
I don't want to feel like I letyou down.
That's projection.
I may let you down, but I'mgonna let you tell me that I've
let you down instead of meguessing that I've let you down
well, I'm a d generation xer.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
Is that the same thing?
I see the funk and pop so, butI'm a d generation xer, uh, so I
get it yeah exactly triple h onthe on the podium is weird.
I'm just waiting for the I'mwaiting for the cross chop too,
but I I don't know what's gonnahappen.
Uh, but I'm from that too.
I'm like you know where.
I find that our generation ingeneral is truthful, straight to

(51:52):
the point and a lot better inthat way.
Sometimes we kind of forget tobe nice.
Sometimes I think that happens,but we, we're getting better at
it, we're just practicingnumber one and number two.
You, I want to say the samething you said, but in different
words what my clients want.
They don't want me to beperfect.

(52:13):
They don't want me to have ananswer to everything.
They want me to be human and dothe best I can with what I have
.
And some days I'm on the ball,I'm like on fire.
And there's days, just becauseI'm a human, maybe I'm tired,
maybe I'm at a fight with mygirlfriend, maybe I had tired,
maybe I'm at a fight with mygirlfriend, maybe I had blank.
Who knows, I'm not dehydratingenough.
Yeah, and if people can respectthat, therapists are humans too

(52:35):
, that's another part of a greathealthy relationship.
People say, well, you can'tproject shit on them.
I'm not projecting shit on them, I'm just having a rough day.
It's okay, I don't.
I don't see the ethical bookthat says you can't have a rough
day.

Speaker 3 (52:50):
Right, I think the I think and I love what you said
there.
It's just so important if a bigportion and if you're in this
population and if you've been init and around it for a while.
There's a couple of differentschools of thought and then
demographically andgeographically vastly different
from end to end of the country,but there's a kind of a subgroup

(53:11):
that you know.
The certificates don't meanshit at three in the morning and
we have a lot of cliniciansthat are looking for
certification and some of us arestill trying to push ride
alongs and getting to knowpeople.
But that takes extra work andeffort.
It's not easier to sit in thatclass but it's easier in the way

(53:35):
of I don't have to interactwith other humans and if you
want to know the fire service,you need to sit at that kitchen
table, you need to sit on theback of that apparatus in that
bay shooting the breeze with theguys shooting the shit, taking,
taking a lump or two, giving alump or two right, busting some

(53:56):
chops you need to be real.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
And in massachusetts I can only speak intelligently
about our area because I don'twant I don't know everywhere,
some departments begging me to.
Can you come to the firehouse?
Just hang out at the table.
If we're on a call, just sitaround, have a coffee, whatever,
just can we have that.
And the police are now likethey're happy to have what we
call jail diversion program,which has changed names four

(54:20):
times, so I don't know what thename of it this week.
Yeah, but you're a ride-along,you're sitting next to a cop
going on a real call, andsometimes they're not related to
mental health, sometimes theyare.
But then you know what they gothrough and the most important
thing is sitting around thetable going on those calls, you
get to see the human that doesthe work.
Yeah, and when people say youknow they don't like police or

(54:43):
they don't like this, yeah, stopthinking about them as roles,
think about as humans and thenrealize the shit they got to go
through.
Because at 3 am when you callbecause you can't get out of bed
because your back's locked up,well, they showed up, didn't
they?

Speaker 3 (54:57):
yeah, yeah, and that's a big challenge for our
emergency responder clients too,because when we ask them like
hey that, uh, lift assist, callthat, uh, you know, whatever it
is, call that you don't find isall that important, do you feel
like that's heroic?
And of course all of them willvirtually say no.
Ironically, though, when youchallenge that and go, well, who
else is doing it?

(55:18):
Who else is putting the careand the effort and showing up
like that's your own grandmothershow, picking them up off the
ground?
And what's crazy is we'll bitchabout those non cool calls,
right, but, much like therapists, that's people's only choice.
You are people's last line ofchoice.

(55:41):
I've went on a lot of liftassist calls.
Can you put sunburn lotion onme?
I mean it's crazy, but thereality of it is they called us
at two o'clock in the morningbecause they tried to deal with
it themselves this whole time.
And you might get, we might geton the apparatus when we show

(56:05):
up at three o'clock in themorning for that smoke detector
battery, or four o'clock in themorning for a lady's cell phone
battery that died.
That's what the beeping was.
And we, we see all those thingsand we smile, but the reality
of it is they couldn't take itanymore.
No, they've been taking it fromabout 12 o'clock on right, and
you are their last line ofdefense and you're treating it

(56:26):
as some bullshit.
Look, I'm not saying you'rechanging the world right now, at
four o'clock in the morning Iget it.
But just because you're notbeing happy doesn't mean that
you have to be mad either.
You can just go, do your job,be courteous and go home, go
back to bed, and what's reallycool about that is if you're in
the Northeast and you're workingwith firefighters, you better

(56:48):
know what the term good Jake'sare, because if you don't know
what that term is, you're goingto be way behind.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
And that's so common Also with one of the things like
they say about people who saythey're culturally competent
with first responders and thensay, well, you know, we were at
roll call when a bunch of Jakeshowed up and they're like you
just spoke Japanese to me andthey don't understand what's
that.
Well, how can you call yourselfsomeone who has worked with
first responders if you don'tknow what it is and you know, I

(57:15):
don't know how long your hosesare?
But when you start saying againI'm going to throw numbers out
that I probably know are wrong,oh, I was carrying a 55 or 45 or
whatever.
I know kind of what that means.
I don't exactly, but I need, Iget the idea I don't need to be
45, what?
No, I know what that meant,yeah, yeah.
And so I think that that's thestuff about cultural competency

(57:35):
is so important and being ableto meet people where they're at,
because if I, they have torespond like and I've had
someone say that there's atherapist who was expert in
first responders they said whatdo you mean?
You were on a call, they gaveyou a phone call directly.
I'm like holy shit really.
And he's like yeah, I wish Iwas joking, Steve.
So, like no, that's the otherpart too, about being around the

(57:56):
table, being in the co-responsechair or whatever you want to
call it is being able to learnall that, those little
intricacies.
You know the ui sucks becausethe fucking paperwork sucks.
I get it, but someone else willhear that like, oh, they're
complaining about this andthey're trying to keep the
community.
No, you gotta understand, it'snot.
It's not like oh, he's a dui,he did the breathalyzer.

(58:18):
It doesn't work that way.
Oh, it was a transport, it wasjust a transport from the
hospital because they werehaving difficulty breathing.
No, it's not just a transport,because there's paperwork.
You gotta still do go throughthe whole.

Speaker 3 (58:29):
You know the receiving agency doesn't want
the patient or doesn't have roomfor the patient, or there's a
miscommunication.

Speaker 2 (58:35):
And then fucking johnny hates to go to hospital.
Xyz right, johnny has to gothere because that's the closest
one.
And then those are the thingsthat people don't quite get if
you're not sitting around thetable, because then when they
say like, oh, we got Lucy again,or fucking oxygen dropped to 85
.
And again, I don't need toexplain what that meant to you,

(58:57):
but there's some people whodon't understand what I just
said.
And that's the point is thatyou don't get to know this shit
if you don't sit around thetable and get to know it.
And again, I don't think myguys might.
Sometimes they'll say stuff Idon't know and I'll go like I'll
be perfectly honest, I have noclue what you just said, but
because I've shown competencyeverywhere else, they're like oh

(59:17):
yeah, that's not your world, Iget it.

Speaker 3 (59:19):
Yeah, there's actually more competency in the
fact that you asked the question.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
Right, but I think, but if it's basic stuff that you
do every day and you're askingquestions and you're an expert,
I think that's where people loseconfidence in your treatment.

Speaker 3 (59:33):
I would not disagree and I think in some of that
aspect and I'm next monthactually teaching presenting at
the Missouri Mental HealthConference.
Oh, okay, presenting at theMissouri Mental Health
Conference, it's clinicalconsiderations, working with
emergency responders, and thesubtitle is Bringing Cultural

(59:54):
Competency into the Therapy Room, and really a lot of that
really kind of helps us buildthose relationships quicker when
we can use that terminology andwe know what we're talking
about.
Breaking it down really easyit's like are you assigned to an
engine or a ladder?
Well, that some of that dependsif what part of the country
you're in, because some placesdon't call it a ladder, they

(01:00:14):
call it a tower or an aerial, orwe don't get that far into the
weeds it's a ladder truck, anengine.
We're not getting into hosewagons or those kinds of things
sometimes just on the ambulancefor that night right right, and
are we talking about a firedistrict, a volunteer paid on
call, a subscription and dues.

(01:00:37):
I mean it just kind of goes oncounty city town.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
There's a lot of different types, a lot of
different types, and you got tobe like.
I know the regional words so Ican get away with that, yeah,
but I but I think that that'swhat I mean like if I went to
missouri I'd probably have tosit down and go hey, can I just
go sit in a couple of firehouses, a couple of police departments
, so I can understand thelanguage here.

(01:01:03):
Because you guys in missouriparticularly, I know, is a more
of a county-based police systemwhere, for here, the counties in
massachusetts have zero fuckinglike they.
They're the jails here.
That's what I can do.
They have some, they do, butultimately they're jails.
And that depends if you're inst louis or if you're like down

(01:01:24):
and I don't know all the smalltowns in missouri, but you're in
a smaller town in missouri.
Well, I live in a.

Speaker 3 (01:01:29):
I live in a pretty small town.
Don't, don't tell nobody thatthey live in a small town, but I
, I don't live in a very bigtown, but I think a lot of that
is the density populations,right, correct, our counties
have a sheriff's office.
That's got, you know, know, 30to 50 patrol officers, the jail,
some aspects, thetelecommunications center and

(01:01:50):
also in those things.
So, knowing your, your area, Iknow your area to some degree
because I have really goodfriends that work in that area.
And if you want to know whatit's like to work with federal
firefighters in Hawaii, well, Iknow Shane in Hawaii.
That can also right.
There's not a person almost inthis country that works in a

(01:02:12):
state that I can't call up andgo.
Hey, I've got a clinician thatwould like to come do a
ride-along, but they don't knowwho to call or how to get
started.
Well, we're not even askingthose questions, unfortunately.
So I think in some of thataspect is I think the competency
from this profession isimportant, but it also takes a

(01:02:32):
ton to work in the otherprofession, to work with that,
with emergency responders, and Ithink it just when you try to
balance your schedule, and Idon't know how your schedule is,
but mine can get kind of crazy.
I know how many people I see ina week and a month and all those
and I'm in private practice.
Nobody tells me who or when orany of those things, right.

(01:02:53):
So I think it's interestingthat when we have those helpful
comments or suggestions in theFacebook group and it's like,
yeah, yeah, but give me the40-hour class, yeah, but you're
doing a ride along.
And if you don't believe me,look at some of the rock stars
in this industry.
What are they doing?
They're doing ride alongs andthey're meeting with people.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
Right.
So yeah, and private practice,I mean, I get it.
I certainly am a privatepractice myself, so I get that.
Yeah, and there's so much I cansay.
You know, and again, I workedfor about a year in Vermont, in
very rural Vermont, not thatmost of Vermont is not rural,
but and that was a different wayof working with first

(01:03:36):
responders than it is when I'min suburbia slash urban Boston
area, suburbia slash urbanboston area, and then within,
you know, an hour and a half ofboston, you have some rural
areas that are not quite vermontrural but rural for
massachusetts, and it's a wholedifferent ball game.
You know, and you know mutualaid is big in those smaller

(01:03:58):
towns and if you don't know theword mutual aid, then you're
fucked yeah so um anyway we'regonna spend 40 minutes
explaining it yeah, exactly, andI don't want that like.
There's like oh, you know, wedid mutual aid with franklin.
I know what that means.
But if you're like not, youhaven't been a ride along, you
haven't been with a, you don'twhat the fuck is mutual aid?

(01:04:19):
Someone needed cpr in thedepartment.
No, no, no, no, anyway.
Yeah, we, I knew this wouldhappen.
I really liked the connectionfrom the top.
Someone needed CPR in thedepartment.
No, no, no, no, anyway.
Yeah, we, I knew this wouldhappen.
I really liked the connectionfrom the top.
We'll see what we can do Maybewe'll end up having two episodes
out of this.
I appreciate it, adam, but youknow I want people.

(01:04:39):
I wish I could go to thatconference because I believe in
the cultural competency part.
But since I can't go there, howdo I like?
Not only me, but for myaudience.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
How do we reach you?
You said you had in yourwebsite.
Yeah, I have a new website.
I'm on Facebook.
My private practice is calledIn a Good Space, and the belief
is that if you're good, itdoesn't matter what environment
you're in, you're going to begood.
And my little logo.
I thought it was important.
It took two and a half yearsfor me to decide on something

(01:05:12):
because I wanted it to be rightand uh, it's an atom.
And sometimes the jokes justtell themselves right, uh, but
atoms are everywhere.
And the idea is that if I'mfeeling good and I and I know
who I am, I know I represent, Iknow what I stand for it doesn't
really matter what environmentI'm in.
So in a good space is is that'sthe idea and the so Facebook,

(01:05:33):
the Insta book, face, graham,social media stuff and my, my
website is a great way.
Uh and uh, my, uh, my websiteis a great way.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
Um, all right.
So what's the www?
A good space, therapycom.
So please go to that website.
It'll be in the show notes ifyou want to click on it.
Yeah, and the other part too.
I want to say.
Besides, let me get back to thethank you, but you know logos.
When you said adam, yeah, all Ican think of is your name and
I'm like oh, did he do that?
on fucking purpose not onpurpose, but sometimes the jokes

(01:06:12):
just tell themselves, that'swhat I mean it's like no, no,
okay, like yeah, again joking us, not really, chelsea, I'm
joking, but oh yeah, I did thatpart.
We're just to make it soundcool.
I'm kidding.
Please leave it as is, don'tchange it.
But, adam, if I'm ever inMissouri I want to go see you,
but I know I'll have to figureout where your town is.
Yeah, but I will go see you.

(01:06:34):
I wish I could go to thatconference, awesome stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:06:39):
I appreciate that I do a lot of work with the fools,
if your listeners know what thefools I do.
Free conference, the fourthfloor perspective class that I
was talking about earlier.
My office is on the fourthfloor now, um, in a beautiful
downtown, springfield, missouri.
I'm between Springfield andBranson.
I live in a small town calledNixa, just south of Springfield,

(01:07:00):
but I teach the fourth floorperspective class for free.
Just logistics to get me whereI need to be.
I can sleep on a firehousecouch, a bed, somebody else's
couch or bed.
The work is too important.
After September, when I teachat this conference, they're
supposed to assign me somecontinuing education credits

(01:07:22):
because my class also includesresponding to personal crisis of
emergency responders.
So it hits a lot of thatsuicide credential for our field
after September.
So hopefully I'll be able toget some peer groups together
with local therapists andthere'll be something for
everybody there I was going toask you oh yeah, master for

(01:07:42):
therapists, but it sounds likeit's for therapists.

Speaker 2 (01:07:43):
I was going to ask you oh, ems, or for therapists,
but it sounds like it's fortherapists.

Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
Yeah, it's actually for.
It will be for both once I getthat CEU part.
But, honestly, if people are,if I'm speaking to peer groups
or fools Fraternal Order ofLeatherhead Society for those
who don't know, sometimes when Ispeak or I'm talking about my
background, I'm a firefighter as, or, if you don't know,

(01:08:08):
emergency responder, thosethat's for those who aren't in
the business um, but uh,teaching those classes for free
and then if we can reach out tosome local therapists, um, I
don't know if you, I'm sure youdo know who dr yalam is, of
course, of course, right, Ididn't know who he was.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
I actually met the guy.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
Nice.
Well, that's a pretty awesomething.
I got done reading his book theMatter of Life and Death, and I
was so moved by the book Ilooked him up he was still alive
and I sent him an email.
And the funny thing about thatis when I was sharing that in my
group supervision they were allblown away that I just sent Dr

(01:08:47):
Gallum an email.
I'm like, well he's, he's justa, he's just a dude, just a
human, just a human.
And they're like, oh well, youshould have him on on our
podcast.
The place that I worked athosted the podcast.
Notice that I don't know ifyou've ever heard of that
podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
Can't say that I have .

Speaker 3 (01:09:04):
I'm not going to lie, yeah, it's an EMDR podcast,
it's a pretty amazing podcast.
But they said, oh, you shouldemail him again and invite him
on the podcast.
And I said, yeah, okay, whatwould we talk about?
And then they're just talkingand I'm like, okay, cool, I'll

(01:09:29):
just send him an email so we'lljust see what he says.
And they're just blown away, uh, by that and it's just funny
because I think a lot oftherapists confuse confidence
with arrogance.

Speaker 2 (01:09:33):
In this field, those those individuals that get on
that truck to get into that car,that sit at that console,
already know they're going towin, because if they don't,
right they ain't gonna do itwell, and dr ervin yallam, for
those who don't know, has acouple of great books and, uh,
one of the books that, uh, wewere I was able to talk to him

(01:09:54):
about is becoming myself uh,which was a really good book um
so, and when I say met himvirtually, I didn't meet him.
He's in is Israel most of thetime, but really good, dude.
Anyway, thank you, adam.
Truthfully, let me know whenyou can come back, probably like
this winter or something.
I'd love to have you back, man.
Really good conversation.

Speaker 3 (01:10:15):
I'd love to be back on.
It's great to talk to you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
If you could explain, if you explain enneagrams for
the first responder world,because I think I can explain it
but I would be a little moretherapeutic.
So I think for the firstresponder world there's a
different language that they'dget and I think that that would
be perfect for another subjectfor us to talk about.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, guys, and see you atepisode 223.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
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(01:11:04):
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