October 1, 2025 • 43 mins
How do we treat our physical health versus our mental health? Former London Metropolitan Police officer Jonathan Kemp spent 12 years in law enforcement while battling undiagnosed bipolar disorder, depression, and dyslexia—yet refused to seek professional help until his late 30s.
"I was determined to fix myself on my own," Kemp reveals in this powerful conversation. "I saw it as an insult to go and see a doctor. It was a weakness or admission of defeat." This mindset, particularly prevalent among first responders and those in high-pressure careers, kept him struggling silently for decades before finally seeking the treatment that transformed his life.
Kemp articulates the profound disconnect in how we approach different aspects of our wellbeing: "If you had a chronic knee problem, you'd go and see a knee specialist. It defies logic that we're happy to see a professional for the rest of our body, but when it comes to the brain, we have this almost inbuilt default that you should figure it out yourself." This insight cuts to the heart of why many resist mental health support despite overwhelming suffering.
The conversation explores how structured environments like policing can sometimes mask mental health challenges, while shift work can exacerbate them by disrupting sleep patterns—what Kemp identifies as his "#1 foundation" for mental health stability. He shares practical advice for supporting struggling colleagues and navigating recovery resources when confidentiality concerns arise, especially in professions where stigma remains powerful.
Now an advocate and author, Kemp discusses his upcoming book "Finding Peace of Mind" (releasing on World Mental Health Day) and his ambitious seven-month awareness walk across the British Isles beginning January 2026. Through both initiatives, he's transforming his decades of struggle into resources that might help others find support sooner.
Visit Jonathan at the following links:
https://www.viscountrochdale.com/
https://www.facebook.com/jonathankemplondon
https://www.instagram.com/Jonathankemplondon
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonathankemplondon
You can order his book at Amazon: www.amazon.com/jonathankemp
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in
Action, where strength meetsstrategy and courage to help you
move forward.
Each week, your host, SteveBeesimple, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth, and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions, and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress management,and emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Well, hi everyone, and welcome to episode 224.
Haven't listened to episode 223.
Go back and listen to AaronSheridan, uh great colleague
from Behind the Badge andBeyond.
Great interview.
So I hope you go back andlisten.
But episode 224 is with JonathanKemp.
He's a mental health advocate,entrepreneur, and creator of
smart wisdom, a scientificallyvalidated note-taking technique.
(01:04):
So I hope you go get checkedthat out.
But he built his career in lawenforcement and entrepreneurship
and even went into studying, butwas unaware of his bipolar
disorder, depression, anddyslexia, and how it was shaping
his life.
We'll talk about neurodiversity,I'm pretty sure, too.
His mental health illnesses werediagnosed at age 39 when he
(01:24):
finally sought help.
And Jonathan won the BritishDyslexia Association
Entrepreneur of the Year in2011.
So uh very interestinginterview, I'm sure, and here it
is.ai.
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(02:53):
that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly encourage you to doso.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 224.
One of the things that I I'malways very honest with our
audience is that I get a lot ofsolicitation from different
people.
And I got this from a uh fromJonathan Kemp, who is with us
(03:15):
today.
I found it fascinating forseveral levels because he talks
about people in situations wherethey're not talking about their
mental health, being a littlemore strong about it, even
people in leadership.
And I thought that, you know, asa former first responder
himself, I thought it'd beperfect for this uh podcast.
So, Jonathan, welcome toResilience Development in
Action.
SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
Dave, thanks very much for having me.
Uh greatly appreciated.
SPEAKER_01 (03:39):
You know, we were having a great pre-interview
conversation that uh I can'trebroadcast, unfortunately, for
several reasons.
And we'll get it, but no oneelse will.
And if you want to know, justwrite to us.
But you know, I got to know youa little bit.
I obviously read all your stuffthat you I received.
Uh, very interesting stuff, butI'd like you to introduce
yourself to the audience andthey know a little bit more
(04:00):
about you.
SPEAKER_02 (04:01):
Yes, by all means.
So I have a lot of experiencewith mental health issues and
with neurodiversity.
And what makes my story a littlebit unusual, but possibly not
from a first responderperspective, is that uh I didn't
actually get professionalmedical help until I was in my
(04:21):
late 30s.
And it was only then that I wasdiagnosed with bipolar disorder
and depression.
And I wasn't diagnosed withneurodiversity issues, in
particular dyslexia, until I wasin my late 40s.
So I had a lot of experience oftrying to manage these
situations on my own.
(04:41):
And so I've got a lot ofexperience of doing that, and
then a lot of experiencefollowing medical advice,
sometimes more than others.
And so I can sort of see bothsides of the coin.
And also that I think somethingthat might resonate with first
responders is that I wasdetermined to fix myself on my
(05:02):
own.
I saw it as an insult to go andsee a doctor.
It was a weakness or a missionof defeat to go and see a
psychiatrist or even worse, atherapist.
And uh likewise with takingmedication.
So I sort of approached itthrough that prism.
But I must admit, for the 12years that I was a first
(05:23):
responder and working in theLondon police, I had although I
knew something was seriouslywrong, I didn't know it was
mental health issues at thetime.
SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
So you were in London, like what part of
London?
SPEAKER_02 (05:37):
Yeah, so I was uh I lived in London and I policed in
central London, uh, twodistricts within central London.
So I was a constable for fiveyears and then a sergeant for
seven.
And during my time as aconstable, you know, we would do
day-to-day duties, which wereboth public order and both like
(05:59):
dealing with sort of day-to-daydisputes and criminal matters.
And it was an interesting time.
There were lots of bigindustrial disputes and uh lots
of sort of big political eventshappening.
So it was an interesting time tobe in the police.
SPEAKER_01 (06:15):
Well, it sounds like it was a very time, a good time
to be anywhere.
But one of the things that'sdifficult is when you're
fighting your own mental healthissues.
And you know, it's not somethingthat people like to talk about
in the first responder world, orfrankly, I find in the general
population.
We fight sometimes, and mentalhealth is not something that I'm
like, here's bipolar.
You know, if I have a mole in myface, I'll see the mole in my
(06:36):
face.
But bipolar is not going to showup here in the middle of your
front.
I'm not, I'm just making it uphere.
You know, I always worry abouthow we can address that stuff.
What's a common, you know,besides mental health, is there
other common, like specificmental health or other issues
that are invisible uh that weneed to recognize earlier in
(06:57):
order to work our lives and doour thing?
SPEAKER_02 (06:59):
This is looking back with ref with and reflecting
back on my time in the Met.
And I now realize in some ways,the police and policing really
helped me.
Because when you have mentalhealth issues, you know, as you
quite rightly say, it isn'timmediately visible.
And that's whether it's bipolardisorder, addict um uh
(07:22):
depression, addictions.
The reason I pause on addictionsis that I know certainly when I
was at the police, when when theaddiction becomes severe enough,
you can't hide it.
One would argue that it's thesame thing for mental health,
but yes, if you know what you'relooking at, absolutely.
So I know looking back now, youknow, some of the incidents we
(07:43):
were called out to were peopleeither on the neurodiversity
spectrum for something.
And probably back then, youknow, if somebody was autistic
and was coming across unable tocommunicate effectively, et
cetera, et cetera, there's noway we would have made the link
between what we were seeing anda neurodiversity issue.
(08:04):
We would have just seen we'vegot someone here, they're
playing up, they're beingawkward, you know, we've just
got to deal with it.
Whereas, you know, the realitywas that somebody was behaving
that way because they wereautistic or had some other
issue.
So the reason I found, and thisis really with the benefit of
(08:24):
hindsight, I think being a firstresponder in some way saved my
bacon for 12 years, was it'sit's highly structured.
You know, you've got to be at aset place at a set time, and
what you need to do is, youknow, very specific.
And all of that structure andthat responsibility and that
(08:44):
focus, I found really helped.
And you made an interestingpoint that, you know, if you
know what you're looking for,you can recognize what's going
on.
So, particularly when I became asergeant, you know, if
constables were struggling orpeople were struggling with
drink, I did notice it.
And sometimes I'd share myexperience.
(09:05):
So I stopped taking drink andother substances when I was
about 21.
And the reason I did that wasbecause I knew that dividing
line for me between sanity andinsanity was as fine as a piece
of hair.
And once I took, yeah, and onceI took drink or, you know, took
other substances, I had nocontrol over whether I crossed
(09:27):
that line.
So I stopped when I was early20s, and then I was in 12 step
different 12-step fellowshipsfor uh maybe 10, 15, even 20
years for 20 years.
SPEAKER_01 (09:39):
Well, I, you know, there's so many questions that
came up about these are morecuriosity questions.
The first thing I want to ask ishow are shifts structured in uh
the London police?
Is it like eight-hour shifts andone in the morning, one in the
afternoon, one in the evening,or is there a different way that
they structure it in uh inLondon?
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
Yeah, so they it's changed over the years.
So when I was in, um it waspredominantly eight-hour shifts,
and there was a morning shiftstarted at six, afternoon to
evening at 10.
We would do eight hours and thengo home.
And you were continuallyshifting from like a day shift,
early morning shift to anafternoon shift, and then we'd
(10:19):
do like a week of nights, thenwe'd have days off after nights.
But from a mental health specperspective, although that gives
you structure, it really playson the sleep.
And for me, for my mentalhealth, probably sleep is number
one in terms of managing.
And what I would say, the morethat one can, and this is a sort
(10:41):
of general reflective uhthought, if one is a first
responder, if one has a choiceover whether to do rotating
shifts continually changing or aconsistent shift for a period of
time, I would always recommendthe consistent shift for a
period of time because it allowsyour sleep to normalize.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Well, that's what uh that's what I want, you know.
It's interesting that I thinkfor the last three to four
podcasts, and you're number fourright now, who are saying the
exact same thing, how importantit is for sleep.
And you know, I haveconversations about sleep uh
hygiene with most people inregards to that, and having
that, you know, the morningshift, the the afternoon shift
(11:21):
or the evening shift or theovernight shift, that they all
have different names in America.
They go first second and mids,some especially Massachusetts.
I don't know if that'severywhere.
Having that consistency nomatter what is important.
But I think that you, you know,it also brings up the alcohol
problem.
You know, I I'm alwaysinterested in knowing, you know,
I grew up in Canada.
(11:42):
Uh, most people know that I'vebeen here for more years than
I've been in Canada.
And, you know, for the stepwork, there's always been a
little bit of um, I don't knowhow to put it other than secret
sometimes.
You know, it's almost like ashame thing when I grew up in
Canada.
As I got here, maybe because I'min the mental health field and I
wasn't up there, maybe it's not.
(12:03):
But I feel like more and morewe've become a lot more aware of
the 12-step programs or any typeof programs that help you stay
sober and it's a lot more open.
One of the concerns that I hearall the time is well, I'm a
police officer.
I don't want to be sitting therewith, you know, some guy
probably uh, you know, arrestedor whatever, two days before,
(12:25):
two weeks before, two yearsbefore it doesn't really matter.
What do you what do you kind ofsay to that, or what what's your
uh your reaction to that?
Because that's something that'scome up many, many times in my
work and my career, because thedrink helps you sleep, which is
great until it doesn't.
And that's where I think thatthose things happen.
And then they don't want to goto meetings because they don't
(12:45):
want to be sitting with peoplethey might have been arrested.
So I know it's a very complexquestion, I just asked.
SPEAKER_02 (12:51):
No, I think in terms of drink and taking other
substances, I know, and it'spartly generational, I think
partly where you work, thatthere was a certain amount of
what I call drinking culture.
So if you didn't go out to drinkafter your shift or after your
work, it sounds ridiculous to menow, but you wouldn't be
(13:14):
trusted.
And this was particularly thecase if you wanted to go into
work in plain clothes on crimesquads or you wanted to go into
the CID, which is our criminalinvestigation department, then
there was a in certain uhoffices, there was a very heavy
drinking culture.
And because I didn't drink, I Ifelt, and I wanted to be a CID
(13:35):
officer, and it didn't turn outthat way, but because I didn't
drink, I felt that I wasslightly on the outside.
I mean, I still go to the puband have soft drinks, but I
think people thought it was abit odd.
In terms of people worrying, Ithink the first priority, if you
if one thinks that drink istaking too much control, is to
get help, whether it's a 12-stepfellowship with seeing the
(13:56):
doctor and looking foralternative ways, because the
the 12-steps are really good.
They've helped me enormously,but they aren't the only
solution.
There are other ways to dothings.
In terms of a fear of going into12-step meetings, I completely
get it because no one's going tobe sitting in a 12-step meeting
if they're, you know, a saintand everything is smelling of
(14:19):
roses.
You know, that's just not thereality.
So the reality with drinking isall sorts of, you know,
problems, you know, sometimescriminal offenses, sometimes
prison sentences.
And that goes, you know, par andparcel, whether it's narcotics
anonymous, alcoholics anonymous,gamblers anonymous.
(14:40):
But what I would say is there'stwo things.
You don't have to say whatprofession you're in.
You know, you could just say I'ma public servant.
So for their all intents ofpurposes, you know, if you're in
a room full of other 12-stepmembers, all they know is that
you are a public servant.
You don't have to say what youactually do.
And I would probably, in thefirst instance, I would
(15:03):
recommend that.
And then as you get to knowpeople and you get to trust
people, then you can start tosay, oh, well, you know, this is
what I do.
And what I found is that whenyou share that, people respect
it.
And the other thing is that, youknow, when you're sharing and
talking about your experiences,you can talk about the
experiences without actuallyalluding and opening up to the
(15:26):
fact that you are a policeofficer.
So you there are certain thingsyou can generalize.
And then the other thing whichis really important is that in
all meetings, they have thissaying is what you see here,
what you hear here, please letit stay here.
And, you know, from my extensiveexperience of being in 12-step
meetings, that is pretty muchadhered to.
SPEAKER_01 (15:44):
Ironically, that's also my experience too.
Having, you know, one of thechallenges that I find here
particularly.
And yes, I'm calling you out ifyou're listening to this, and
I'm if you're upset about it,call me, talk to me, and I'm not
hard to find.
But there's this chronicuniqueness that comes up
sometimes.
Well, I'm different, I don'tneed the 12 steps, or I'm a
(16:07):
police officer, I gotta handleit myself, or I'm a firefighter.
We have to have our own groups,and yes, I'm calling everyone
out.
If you're upset, just call meout.
How do we change that thoughtprocess?
Because you know, I can't be thesame as a person whose family
has chronic alcoholic syndrome,which you know, we all know that
typically that happens.
(16:28):
How do we address that withpeople who may not who be might
be resistant?
Because we talk about somestigmas, you know, I think
that's one of the stigmas that,well, I'm not one of them, which
I hear unfortunately toofrequently.
How do we address that?
How do we make sure that peopleget the help, whether it's
mental health or substanceabuse?
I know I've kind of deviated alittle bit to substance abuse
now.
(16:48):
I'd like to also include themental health part because
that's important.
And if you get a chance whilewe're explaining the mental
health part, I know whatneurodiversity is, but sometimes
people like hear that, and I'veheard anything from oh, it's
real to it's BS.
And I want to be able to addressboth sides because I think it is
real and I think it's somethingthat we need to address.
SPEAKER_02 (17:10):
Lots of interesting questions in that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:12):
I know I I'm plenty of those.
I just don't have any answers.
SPEAKER_02 (17:16):
Okay, so to deal with the issue of uniqueness, I
think what's interesting is thatprobably everyone will say that
they're unique.
And certainly when you go into a12-step fellowship or you go and
see a doctor or a therapist orpsychiatrist, you're sitting
there thinking, you know, Idon't know if I can say this.
(17:38):
I I I don't know if I can, Idon't know if I can open up, I
don't know.
And what you're worried about isthat you've done something that
they that is terrible andthey're going to judge you for.
And what I realized was thatwe're first and foremost, we are
all human.
Secondly, our behavior and whatwe think and what we do is
(18:04):
actually really common acrossall spectrums, all professions,
all ages, different countries.
So it is normal to feel unique,but the crucial thing is if you
have an issue, whether it's youknow, and whether it's a mental
health issue.
So mental health for me alsoincludes addictions, it includes
(18:27):
you know depression, it includesbipolar, it includes chronic
stress and the other illnessesthat are out there.
SPEAKER_01 (18:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (18:35):
And the thing for me, which took me a long time to
sort of understand, is itdoesn't matter what profession
you're in, it doesn't matter ifyou're a police officer or a
fire person or a you know, afirst aider or in the military,
that really doesn't matter.
The important thing is that weare human beings.
(18:58):
We were a human being before wewent in, and we're a human being
when we're there.
And human beings will haveproblems with their body.
And just because of our culture,and I think it's historical,
we're quite happy to go and gethelp for every part of our body
other than our brain.
And it makes now I look back, itmakes no logical sense.
(19:20):
You know, I had bleeding in oneof my eyes and I went partially
blind.
And after I was a bit slow, butafter about a week, I went to
see my doctor and then I went tosee specialists.
SPEAKER_01 (19:30):
Well, you know, it goes with it goes with the
healthcare system.
But anyway, sorry for beingpolitical there for a second.
Please continue.
SPEAKER_02 (19:36):
Yeah, yeah, we're very lucky in that we have a
free health care system here.
SPEAKER_01 (19:40):
Yeah, but sometimes it's hard to get in.
I know Canada is the same time,so some same problem sometimes.
But anyway, the checkup from theneck up, you were talking.
SPEAKER_02 (19:47):
And so for me, if you've got problems with the
brain, it's not you're you'renot weak, you're certainly not
unique.
If you can either go and getprofessional medical help in the
first instance, just get anassessment in the same way that
if you had a knee injury becauseyou fell when you were chasing
someone, or you fell when youwere climbing up a ladder and
(20:10):
the ladder slipped.
If you had a chronic kneeproblem, you'd go and see a knee
specialist, as much as you knowyour medical system will allow
you to do.
And it's the same with thebrain.
If there's it defies logic thatthere can be a problem with the
rest of the body, and we'rehappy to go and see a
professional, but when it comesto the brain, we have this sort
(20:31):
of almost inbuilt default that,and particularly if you're in
sort of like sort of what I callstrong independent professions,
that you should be able tofigure it out yourself.
And my God, I tried for 20years, you know, I tried.
I thought, I am gonna solve thismyself.
I'm gonna think this, this ishow I'm gonna behave, this is
(20:52):
how I'm gonna react.
And I pretty much did that for20 years.
And it's a bit like trying to dothe same for a I wouldn't dream
of trying to think my kneebetter, you know, if it had a
chronic injury.
So I shouldn't, and now Irealize that the faster and the
quicker I can get professionalhelp, whether it's mental health
or neurodiversity, the bettersituation I'm in.
(21:17):
And the interesting thing is, Ithink now in certain fields, so
like in sports, it's acompletely different ball game,
whether it's Formula One or it'srunning or it's Olympics, they
will have a team behind thepeople because they recognize
the brain is just another partof the body, and you need to
(21:38):
look after the brain and thebody to be you know a successful
Formula One driver or asuccessful athlete.
And it is exactly the same forfirst responders.
SPEAKER_01 (21:48):
I go to I can talk about F1 for a long time myself,
big fan.
And you know, I go back to LewisHamilton, and for those who
don't know, very popular won thechampionship a few years ago.
He's struggled the last fewyears, but they've he's been on
a different team.
His team hasn't been assupportive, just my two cents.
Um, but I'm not gonna get intotoo much F1 here.
(22:09):
Uh, but Lewis Hamilton was veryopen about his mental health
struggles, especially when hewas a young kid, and there was a
lot of pressure on him and howthat affected him and his team,
like, and by the way, nothingagainst coaches, all four
coaches, but I also know thatyou need a mental health
professional in order to moveforward, and he was very adamant
(22:29):
about that.
And um, you've got differentguys who have brought that up in
different sports, includingfootball, American football, and
regular football.
And I think that anyprofessional sports or
individual sports, particularlyin individual sports, I think
you get in like you can't turnaround and say my partner is
gonna take over, one of the 10other guys on the field are
(22:50):
gonna take over.
You turn around and there's noone there.
So individual sports inparticular, I find that the
mental healt strain is prettybig and needs to be addressed.
I think that the word you werelooking for is high functioning
individuals who think that I,you know, you you know, my one
of my friends, and I know hestole it from someone else, says
to me, You can't solve the same,you can't solve a problem that
(23:13):
the same brain created.
And you need sometimes anoutsider perspective in order to
address it.
That's why I've had a therapistsince 2000.
I don't even know I've had atherapist forever.
And even when I was young, uhtherapist, I would always say,
Well, I can handle it.
I'm a therapist, I can handleit, I'm a therapist, I can
handle it until I couldn't.
(23:34):
And then I went and I see mytherapist like a right now, it's
about every four to six weeks.
I'm doing okay so so far.
That doesn't mean it won'tchange tomorrow.
So if I need him every week,he's available.
But I think it's having thatmental health.
I'm a high functioning personoverall.
Don't tell my girlfriend or mykids they don't believe it, but
for the most part, most peoplebelieve that.
(23:56):
Um, but I do need someone, andeven the biggest athletes will
tell you that they need that.
How do we really address thatstigma?
Because people just get stuck onthat stuff and saying, Well, I'm
high functioning, I don't needsomeone.
Well, that's ego talkingusually, and I think there's
other things to be addressed,but I would like to hear your
point of view.
SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
Yeah, so I was probably I probably described as
high functioning myself.
So again, I would make thecomparison between high
functioning.
Do we expect if we're highfunctioning, let's say we get
diabetes, is high functioninggoing to help us deal with
(24:34):
diabetes?
No.
Good point.
Is high functioning going tohelp us with a heart problem?
It will probably actuallyaggravate it depending on how
hard we work.
Is high functioning going to youknow help with our body fats,
you know, whether good ones orbad ones?
No.
(24:55):
And actually, if one thinksabout it, if one is high
functioning, so we don't expectapply the same high functioning
rules to our brain that we applyto the rest of our body.
And basically, when a body isput under stress, or even a
natural body, it will, it will,some bodies will find illnesses,
(25:16):
not find illnesses, that'scompletely the wrong word.
Some bodies will be ill forwhatever reason, some bodies
will become ill because of thecircumstances they're in, and
the brain is exactly the same,it's just another part of the
body.
And you made a reallyinteresting point that athletes
who are individuals need thatsort of psychological mental
(25:40):
help, it will be more than teamathletes.
And first responders, I wouldsee as the same because quite
often, as a first responder,you're the only person wherever
you are.
And so the responsibility on youto perform and perform at a high
level is huge.
So if it's acceptable for anathlete, individual athlete, to
(26:01):
get this sort of psychologicalhelp, then for me, logic follows
that first responders who areoften on a scene on their own
need the same type of help.
And the other interesting thing,this word high functioning.
So if you're high functioning,that means you're like so the
athlete is using their body alot and they need help to manage
(26:23):
that.
People who are high functioningare probably using their brain a
lot.
So if you use your body a lotand you we accept that it's
going to have problems, it'sexactly the same for the brain.
If you do certain things to thebrain, if and particularly if
it's through your work, youknow, where you've got no
control, you can't just say,whoops, sorry, bit too much.
(26:45):
I've got to go.
You have to, you know, whetherit's a traffic accident or it's,
you know, it's a fight or it's afar fight, whatever it is, you
have to deal with it.
And as you're dealing with it asa high function person, you may
be doing really well, but thebrain is continually being
impacted by whatever you'redealing with.
(27:05):
And so what I would say,whether, you know, whatever,
whatever it is, whether it's amental health issue, and so for
me, it was chronic depressionand bipolar disorder type two.
And in terms of neurodiversity,I have dyslexia, which means
that I have problems readingthings, I have problems with
remembering, I have problemsdoing two things at once.
(27:28):
So for me, like when I was inthe police and we would, we
would team up on night duty inwhat we call fast response cars,
and you'd have the driver, you'dhave an operator and somebody in
plain clothes in the back.
And I hated being the operatorbecause I had to listen to the
radio and then tell where thedriver needed to go.
And I was just hopeless at it.
(27:48):
I couldn't remember any of theroads, even though I've been
there for years.
And I now realize that a lot ofthat was because when my brain
processes information as aperson, someone who has
dyslexia, I'm if I'm trying toprocess two things at once, my
brain just goes like a sort offuzzy television.
It just sort of crackles out.
SPEAKER_01 (28:10):
Well, I think that I wrote it down because I thought
it was a great point.
High functioning people will usetheir brain.
So therefore, they probably needto get it checked out.
I like that.
And I think that the whole fuzzybrain in when you're doing two
things at once, and especially,you know, in a higher stress
environment, this is not um, youknow, coordinating the choir.
It's a little more complex whenyou're working as a police
(28:32):
officer, firefighter, firstresponder, EMT, paramedic, or
what have you.
Definitely plays a factor too.
One of the things that I wasalso wondering, and I don't know
if you've encountered this, butif you haven't, this, you know,
certainly advice is alwayswelcome.
Sometimes people will see theircolleagues struggle.
They'll even tell me in therapy.
(28:53):
Some of my clients will be like,oh, you know, one of my guys is
having problems, or one of myfriends is having problems at
work.
And they said, and they go, youknow, how do I get them to
therapy?
I'm like, well, you tell themthat they probably need therapy.
And how do we change how wecommunicate that to anyone?
Because I think it's somethingthat is stigmatized too.
(29:13):
It's not like you go around andtell people, you know, you need
mental help.
Help.
I think that that's somethingthat uh comes up a lot in
America, particularly.
And I think in general, I thinkit's one of those things, even
in more accepting countries, forlack of a better word.
There's still this uh go getsome help has a huge stigma and
kind of like uh, you know, whoare you to tell me I need a
(29:36):
mental health help?
SPEAKER_02 (29:38):
Yeah, it's tricky.
And I think it's also tricky inwhere you've got all male
environments or predominantlymale environments.
And I think it's just a fact,you know, it's a feature of men
and believing that, you know,they should be able to manage on
their own and do everything ontheir own.
(29:58):
The way around that will be.
Through education, throughtraining supervisors on what to
do, what to look for, how torespond, what are the services
available.
So I would say, from myexperience, how you help someone
as a colleague, I think ifyou're a supervisor, it might be
(30:21):
slightly easier.
Certainly I found it easier whenI was a sergeant supervising
young constables.
I found it easier to approachsort of sensitive subjects like
that because I had a duty ofcare for them.
So it didn't seem too strangethat I would do that.
But with colleagues, I would sayit's the same as friends in the
(30:42):
first instance, is you know,just see if they want to have a
talk, if they want to have atalk in private.
I don't think it'd be too remissto say, you know, are you okay?
Do you want to have a chat?
And if you think it's going itwill be accepted, you could say,
God, you seem to have been a bitdown or you seem to have been
struggling recently.
(31:03):
Would you like to have a chat?
So I think that's one thing.
And in the first instance,unless it's an emergency and you
know, somebody's having apsychotic episode, or you know,
I've been in instances whereobviously this didn't happen and
it's my imagination, but um I'vebeen in instances where you know
(31:25):
the driver of the police car orthe police van is drunk, or the
detective can hardly stand ontheir feet.
You know, what do you do?
And in those sort of instances,it's like it's you have to take
immediate action.
Whether you report it, I don'tthink there's a hard and fast
rule.
Well, the rule is you report it.
(31:46):
What you do in reality, I thinkthere is certain flexibility
depending on what the situationis.
Yeah, so I would say withcolleagues, it's as a
supervisor, it's easy becauseyou have that duty of care.
And also within the people yousupervise, you have that ability
to define what is acceptable andnot acceptable.
(32:08):
And it may be different in otherteams, other units, but you have
a certain amount of freedom andauthority to define what can be
done.
With colleagues and friends, I Iwould say in the first instance
is just asking it, just simplyeither asking, can I be of any
help or asking, would you liketo have a chat would be the
(32:28):
first thing, unless it's anemergency, in which case I might
isolate someone, you know, ifthey've been drinking or if
they're having a psychoticepisode.
I mean, the first thing I woulddo would be to isolate them and
then take it from there.
SPEAKER_01 (32:44):
You know, I I gotta say, Jonathan, that um one of
the favorite things that yousaid there is that as a leader,
you saw these things and you didsomething.
One of my messages that you willhear throughout my podcast, and
anyone who knows me, that youknow, having stripes and badges
that are, you know, whatever youwant to call them, leadership.
(33:05):
And you got to get it, take aleadership on everything,
including health, mental health,substance use, everything else.
I think that that's one of thethings.
Let's add another layer.
I don't think you need to be aleader with stripes or whatever
they call them.
I don't know if it's the samedown in um in the UK in
particular, but here it'sstripes.
I tell them you don't needstripes in order to be a leader.
(33:28):
You go talk to someone.
Hey, are you okay?
Come and talk to them.
Like you said, I like the ideasthat you gave, but more
importantly, making sure thatyou don't need to be a leader at
anything to be a support forpeople struggling, particularly
if you're struggling with likeyou talk bipolar two disorder.
And for those of you who don'tknow, that's more of a depressed
type than it is the manic type.
(33:50):
And DSM might kick my butt fornot for describing it that
simply, but it's really thatsimple in some ways.
I think that that's the stuffthat I really talk about with my
my colleagues too, is that Idon't need to be a leader in
order to support people.
And um, hopefully we can work onthat stigma overall.
But you know, one of the thingsthat I really was interested in
(34:11):
too is that I know you're anauthor.
I am an author too, so I respectthat significantly.
And I see it behind you, findingpeace of mind.
Would love to hear more aboutyour book because I think that
some of our audience wouldreally benefit from having some
of that, those readings andhaving your book.
So please tell a little moreabout our your book.
Yeah, by all means.
SPEAKER_02 (34:32):
So I I realized during COVID.
Well, the first thing is duringCOVID, I thought that would be
really easy because I know whatshit feels like, and um it was
an absolute nightmare.
I had three by three or fourbipolar highs and crashes, and
by the end of it, I was at mywit's end.
(34:52):
But the positive side of thatwas I went to get proper medical
help again, changed mymedications, and then after
that, it was like a miracle.
It wasn't an effort to think, tobreathe, to enjoy the sunshine.
It was a complete miracle.
And during that stage, I decidedthat actually one of the sort of
(35:14):
greatest, one of the greatest,if not the greatest wealth I
have is my knowledge andexperience about mental health
and neurodiversity.
And so I thought if I couldcapture that in a book, hence
finding peace of mind, I couldthen share that with others.
And that idea of being able totake something that's had a huge
negative impact and use it toyou know help or empower or
(35:39):
inspire others really appealed.
So I wrote the book and itcovers sort of three distinct
areas.
One is my memoir where I talkabout my various experiences.
I was also a cowboy in Australiafor a year.
So it was amazing.
It was probably the, if not oneof the best, the best year of my
life.
It was incredible.
So the first section is mymemoir.
(36:01):
The second section is myanalysis of what helps.
So because I'm high functioning,I'm highly analytical, I've been
constantly reviewing, you know,what works, what doesn't work,
what could I tweak, what could Idevelop.
And I thought that's anotherarea I can bring huge value is
the fact that I'm highlyanalytical.
So I put in a section of thebook, it's been 120 pages, of
(36:23):
things that work.
So, for example, I cover 12questions that I had that
stopped me from getting help.
So the number one was it'ssimple, you know, seeing a
therapist is a weakness, it's amission of defeat.
So I put what I used to thinkand what I think now, which is
the is the most sensible thingto do if you have a mental
illness.
And then I also put in what Icall 14 foundations.
(36:45):
So these are like foundationblocks, and everybody will have
different ones, but these are myfoundation blocks that I try and
maintain to to keep good mentalhealth.
And funnily enough, number oneis sleep.
Without sleep, I'm, you know,I'm I'm struggling straight
away.
And so that is that is the book.
It goes live on the 10th ofOctober this year, which is
(37:08):
World Mental Health Day.
And what I've decided to do forthe first, because I'm promoting
it, I never feel quitecomfortable with the idea of
sort of self-promotion to theidea of financial gain.
I know in some situations it'sperfectly normal and acceptable.
And I think for something likethis, it just doesn't quite sit
(37:28):
comfortably with me.
So what I've decided to do isfor the first year from
publication, all profits will goto four mental health charities.
And what I've decided to do interms of getting the book out
there, because there's onething, you know, writing it,
another thing, publishing it,another completely different
ball game is getting it outthere.
(37:48):
I've decided to do a seven-monthwalk and talk.
So I'll start in the ShetlandIslands in the north of
Scotland.
I'm going to walk all the waythrough Scotland, England, up
through Wales, across toIreland, and down the length of
Ireland.
And it'll be seven months on theroad.
And during this time, I will dotalks.
(38:09):
I will do in-person interviews,random interviews.
And again, for the whole of thatseven months, I'll be raising
money for these for mentalhealth charities.
SPEAKER_01 (38:20):
Wow.
Well, you know, I think that isthere a way for us to follow you
anywhere on the internet fromwhile you're doing that walk?
SPEAKER_02 (38:27):
Yes.
So I'm setting everything up atthe moment.
And funny enough, I'm hoping topersuade or encourage some of my
colleagues that I used to be inthe Met Police with to um
actually help me in terms ofsupport.
So these are people I've knownfor 40 years, and they're still
friends.
Wow.
(38:47):
Yeah, I have some really, reallygood friends from the Met
Police, and uh yeah, I treasurethose friendships.
So at the moment, it should golive, hopefully, in about a week
or so.
Um, is my website,jonathankemp.com.
And from there you will see thewalk and the social media
channels.
(39:08):
And the reason I'm some peoplesay, are you sure you want to
start on the 1st of January?
So I'll be starting on the 1stof January in the northernmost
island above Scotland.
And the reason I'm doing that isbecause the weather will, I'm, I
think safe to say, will beappalling.
But that reflects mental health.
(39:29):
You know, sometimes it isreally, really tough.
And all we can do, you know,even when we're on duty, is
literally put one foot in frontof the other.
And so that's the reason ofstarting then.
SPEAKER_01 (39:40):
And you're gonna walk all the way down to London,
or are you gonna go even deeperinto like almost to what sorry,
I'm gonna plug Boston on the uhwhat would be the uh east side
of England.
SPEAKER_02 (39:54):
Yeah, so I'm gonna go down to London and then I
want to try and limit it toseven months because I could see
it could just go on atinfinitum.
So depending on how I'm doingtime-wise, I want to then go
down to the south coast ofEngland, walk along, then walk
up to South Wales.
Yep, which is on the left-handside of England.
(40:16):
Yes, left side, left-hand sideof England.
Um, I want to go from SouthWales to North Wales, then cross
over the Irish Sea and go fromNorthern Ireland all the way
down to the Southern Ireland,the tip of to not quite the tip
of Southern Ireland, but veryfar down.
SPEAKER_01 (40:32):
Well, I'm taking a trip down to Ireland in uh April
next year in 2026.
So if you are there, I wouldlove to meet you on your walk.
Uh, and if you're not, well,I'll be close.
Uh, and I will definitely beencouraging you because you know
it it it is a great, I love thevisual of how mental health
starts, you know, cloudy, startsvery stormy at times, and how it
(40:57):
gets progressively better, justlike the seasons do.
So uh would love to be theretoo.
And then for the book, this youknow, this podcast will be out
in October, beginning ofOctober.
So it'll be only a couple ofdays afterwards.
So I will encourage people to goand buy it.
Where can we uh buy the bookonline?
Because most of my audience willbe out here in North America, so
(41:20):
just wanted to see where we canbuy it online.
SPEAKER_02 (41:22):
Yeah, so all being well, it should be on US Amazon
at that time and also Barnes andNoble as well, and it should be
orderable.
Orderable orderable, that's theword.
So as the French Canadian guy,but anyway, go ahead.
Yeah, it should be exactly thatum from most bookshops.
(41:45):
But if anybody has any problem,if they contact me through my
website, jonathankemp.com, thenI'll help them out.
SPEAKER_01 (41:52):
Well, I'm gonna be happy to put all that in the
show notes.
We'll be looking forward toreading your book when it comes
out.
And as you set it up, I'm surethat by then we're gonna be able
to follow you.
And if you are in Ireland, wouldlove to see you.
Um I love well uh I've only beento Wales once and I really found
it very quite lovely.
(42:13):
Although I've got to be honest,my favorite part, as I've said
to many people in England, wasthe Lake District area, uh,
which I thought was fantastic.
But of course, not everyoneenjoys that.
So Jonathan, I really appreciateyour time.
I hope uh people go buy yourbook, go to your website, follow
your walk starting in January2026.
(42:36):
And thank you again.
Really appreciate this talk.
SPEAKER_02 (42:39):
Thank you very much for having me.
It's been uh yeah, it's been areally interesting talk.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (42:44):
And uh for those of you joining me, uh, can't wait
for episode 225.
Hope you join me then.
SPEAKER_00 (42:52):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(43:15):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in
Action, where strength meetsstrategy and courage to help you
move forward.
Each week, your host, SteveBeesimple, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth, and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions, and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress management,and emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Well, hi everyone, and welcome to episode 224.
Haven't listened to episode 223.
Go back and listen to AaronSheridan, uh great colleague
from Behind the Badge andBeyond.
Great interview.
So I hope you go back andlisten.
But episode 224 is with JonathanKemp.
He's a mental health advocate,entrepreneur, and creator of
smart wisdom, a scientificallyvalidated note-taking technique.
(01:04):
So I hope you go get checkedthat out.
But he built his career in lawenforcement and entrepreneurship
and even went into studying, butwas unaware of his bipolar
disorder, depression, anddyslexia, and how it was shaping
his life.
We'll talk about neurodiversity,I'm pretty sure, too.
His mental health illnesses werediagnosed at age 39 when he
(01:24):
finally sought help.
And Jonathan won the BritishDyslexia Association
Entrepreneur of the Year in2011.
So uh very interestinginterview, I'm sure, and here it
is.ai.
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So for$99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
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code Steve50 in the promo codearea, Steve50, and you will get
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(02:53):
that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly encourage you to doso.
Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 224.
One of the things that I I'malways very honest with our
audience is that I get a lot ofsolicitation from different
people.
And I got this from a uh fromJonathan Kemp, who is with us
(03:15):
today.
I found it fascinating forseveral levels because he talks
about people in situations wherethey're not talking about their
mental health, being a littlemore strong about it, even
people in leadership.
And I thought that, you know, asa former first responder
himself, I thought it'd beperfect for this uh podcast.
So, Jonathan, welcome toResilience Development in
Action.
SPEAKER_02 (03:35):
Dave, thanks very much for having me.
Uh greatly appreciated.
SPEAKER_01 (03:39):
You know, we were having a great pre-interview
conversation that uh I can'trebroadcast, unfortunately, for
several reasons.
And we'll get it, but no oneelse will.
And if you want to know, justwrite to us.
But you know, I got to know youa little bit.
I obviously read all your stuffthat you I received.
Uh, very interesting stuff, butI'd like you to introduce
yourself to the audience andthey know a little bit more
(04:00):
about you.
SPEAKER_02 (04:01):
Yes, by all means.
So I have a lot of experiencewith mental health issues and
with neurodiversity.
And what makes my story a littlebit unusual, but possibly not
from a first responderperspective, is that uh I didn't
actually get professionalmedical help until I was in my
(04:21):
late 30s.
And it was only then that I wasdiagnosed with bipolar disorder
and depression.
And I wasn't diagnosed withneurodiversity issues, in
particular dyslexia, until I wasin my late 40s.
So I had a lot of experience oftrying to manage these
situations on my own.
(04:41):
And so I've got a lot ofexperience of doing that, and
then a lot of experiencefollowing medical advice,
sometimes more than others.
And so I can sort of see bothsides of the coin.
And also that I think somethingthat might resonate with first
responders is that I wasdetermined to fix myself on my
(05:02):
own.
I saw it as an insult to go andsee a doctor.
It was a weakness or a missionof defeat to go and see a
psychiatrist or even worse, atherapist.
And uh likewise with takingmedication.
So I sort of approached itthrough that prism.
But I must admit, for the 12years that I was a first
(05:23):
responder and working in theLondon police, I had although I
knew something was seriouslywrong, I didn't know it was
mental health issues at thetime.
SPEAKER_01 (05:33):
So you were in London, like what part of
London?
SPEAKER_02 (05:37):
Yeah, so I was uh I lived in London and I policed in
central London, uh, twodistricts within central London.
So I was a constable for fiveyears and then a sergeant for
seven.
And during my time as aconstable, you know, we would do
day-to-day duties, which wereboth public order and both like
(05:59):
dealing with sort of day-to-daydisputes and criminal matters.
And it was an interesting time.
There were lots of bigindustrial disputes and uh lots
of sort of big political eventshappening.
So it was an interesting time tobe in the police.
SPEAKER_01 (06:15):
Well, it sounds like it was a very time, a good time
to be anywhere.
But one of the things that'sdifficult is when you're
fighting your own mental healthissues.
And you know, it's not somethingthat people like to talk about
in the first responder world, orfrankly, I find in the general
population.
We fight sometimes, and mentalhealth is not something that I'm
like, here's bipolar.
You know, if I have a mole in myface, I'll see the mole in my
(06:36):
face.
But bipolar is not going to showup here in the middle of your
front.
I'm not, I'm just making it uphere.
You know, I always worry abouthow we can address that stuff.
What's a common, you know,besides mental health, is there
other common, like specificmental health or other issues
that are invisible uh that weneed to recognize earlier in
(06:57):
order to work our lives and doour thing?
SPEAKER_02 (06:59):
This is looking back with ref with and reflecting
back on my time in the Met.
And I now realize in some ways,the police and policing really
helped me.
Because when you have mentalhealth issues, you know, as you
quite rightly say, it isn'timmediately visible.
And that's whether it's bipolardisorder, addict um uh
(07:22):
depression, addictions.
The reason I pause on addictionsis that I know certainly when I
was at the police, when when theaddiction becomes severe enough,
you can't hide it.
One would argue that it's thesame thing for mental health,
but yes, if you know what you'relooking at, absolutely.
So I know looking back now, youknow, some of the incidents we
(07:43):
were called out to were peopleeither on the neurodiversity
spectrum for something.
And probably back then, youknow, if somebody was autistic
and was coming across unable tocommunicate effectively, et
cetera, et cetera, there's noway we would have made the link
between what we were seeing anda neurodiversity issue.
(08:04):
We would have just seen we'vegot someone here, they're
playing up, they're beingawkward, you know, we've just
got to deal with it.
Whereas, you know, the realitywas that somebody was behaving
that way because they wereautistic or had some other
issue.
So the reason I found, and thisis really with the benefit of
(08:24):
hindsight, I think being a firstresponder in some way saved my
bacon for 12 years, was it'sit's highly structured.
You know, you've got to be at aset place at a set time, and
what you need to do is, youknow, very specific.
And all of that structure andthat responsibility and that
(08:44):
focus, I found really helped.
And you made an interestingpoint that, you know, if you
know what you're looking for,you can recognize what's going
on.
So, particularly when I became asergeant, you know, if
constables were struggling orpeople were struggling with
drink, I did notice it.
And sometimes I'd share myexperience.
(09:05):
So I stopped taking drink andother substances when I was
about 21.
And the reason I did that wasbecause I knew that dividing
line for me between sanity andinsanity was as fine as a piece
of hair.
And once I took, yeah, and onceI took drink or, you know, took
other substances, I had nocontrol over whether I crossed
(09:27):
that line.
So I stopped when I was early20s, and then I was in 12 step
different 12-step fellowshipsfor uh maybe 10, 15, even 20
years for 20 years.
SPEAKER_01 (09:39):
Well, I, you know, there's so many questions that
came up about these are morecuriosity questions.
The first thing I want to ask ishow are shifts structured in uh
the London police?
Is it like eight-hour shifts andone in the morning, one in the
afternoon, one in the evening,or is there a different way that
they structure it in uh inLondon?
SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
Yeah, so they it's changed over the years.
So when I was in, um it waspredominantly eight-hour shifts,
and there was a morning shiftstarted at six, afternoon to
evening at 10.
We would do eight hours and thengo home.
And you were continuallyshifting from like a day shift,
early morning shift to anafternoon shift, and then we'd
(10:19):
do like a week of nights, thenwe'd have days off after nights.
But from a mental health specperspective, although that gives
you structure, it really playson the sleep.
And for me, for my mentalhealth, probably sleep is number
one in terms of managing.
And what I would say, the morethat one can, and this is a sort
(10:41):
of general reflective uhthought, if one is a first
responder, if one has a choiceover whether to do rotating
shifts continually changing or aconsistent shift for a period of
time, I would always recommendthe consistent shift for a
period of time because it allowsyour sleep to normalize.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Well, that's what uh that's what I want, you know.
It's interesting that I thinkfor the last three to four
podcasts, and you're number fourright now, who are saying the
exact same thing, how importantit is for sleep.
And you know, I haveconversations about sleep uh
hygiene with most people inregards to that, and having
that, you know, the morningshift, the the afternoon shift
(11:21):
or the evening shift or theovernight shift, that they all
have different names in America.
They go first second and mids,some especially Massachusetts.
I don't know if that'severywhere.
Having that consistency nomatter what is important.
But I think that you, you know,it also brings up the alcohol
problem.
You know, I I'm alwaysinterested in knowing, you know,
I grew up in Canada.
(11:42):
Uh, most people know that I'vebeen here for more years than
I've been in Canada.
And, you know, for the stepwork, there's always been a
little bit of um, I don't knowhow to put it other than secret
sometimes.
You know, it's almost like ashame thing when I grew up in
Canada.
As I got here, maybe because I'min the mental health field and I
wasn't up there, maybe it's not.
(12:03):
But I feel like more and morewe've become a lot more aware of
the 12-step programs or any typeof programs that help you stay
sober and it's a lot more open.
One of the concerns that I hearall the time is well, I'm a
police officer.
I don't want to be sitting therewith, you know, some guy
probably uh, you know, arrestedor whatever, two days before,
(12:25):
two weeks before, two yearsbefore it doesn't really matter.
What do you what do you kind ofsay to that, or what what's your
uh your reaction to that?
Because that's something that'scome up many, many times in my
work and my career, because thedrink helps you sleep, which is
great until it doesn't.
And that's where I think thatthose things happen.
And then they don't want to goto meetings because they don't
(12:45):
want to be sitting with peoplethey might have been arrested.
So I know it's a very complexquestion, I just asked.
SPEAKER_02 (12:51):
No, I think in terms of drink and taking other
substances, I know, and it'spartly generational, I think
partly where you work, thatthere was a certain amount of
what I call drinking culture.
So if you didn't go out to drinkafter your shift or after your
work, it sounds ridiculous to menow, but you wouldn't be
(13:14):
trusted.
And this was particularly thecase if you wanted to go into
work in plain clothes on crimesquads or you wanted to go into
the CID, which is our criminalinvestigation department, then
there was a in certain uhoffices, there was a very heavy
drinking culture.
And because I didn't drink, I Ifelt, and I wanted to be a CID
(13:35):
officer, and it didn't turn outthat way, but because I didn't
drink, I felt that I wasslightly on the outside.
I mean, I still go to the puband have soft drinks, but I
think people thought it was abit odd.
In terms of people worrying, Ithink the first priority, if you
if one thinks that drink istaking too much control, is to
get help, whether it's a 12-stepfellowship with seeing the
(13:56):
doctor and looking foralternative ways, because the
the 12-steps are really good.
They've helped me enormously,but they aren't the only
solution.
There are other ways to dothings.
In terms of a fear of going into12-step meetings, I completely
get it because no one's going tobe sitting in a 12-step meeting
if they're, you know, a saintand everything is smelling of
(14:19):
roses.
You know, that's just not thereality.
So the reality with drinking isall sorts of, you know,
problems, you know, sometimescriminal offenses, sometimes
prison sentences.
And that goes, you know, par andparcel, whether it's narcotics
anonymous, alcoholics anonymous,gamblers anonymous.
(14:40):
But what I would say is there'stwo things.
You don't have to say whatprofession you're in.
You know, you could just say I'ma public servant.
So for their all intents ofpurposes, you know, if you're in
a room full of other 12-stepmembers, all they know is that
you are a public servant.
You don't have to say what youactually do.
And I would probably, in thefirst instance, I would
(15:03):
recommend that.
And then as you get to knowpeople and you get to trust
people, then you can start tosay, oh, well, you know, this is
what I do.
And what I found is that whenyou share that, people respect
it.
And the other thing is that, youknow, when you're sharing and
talking about your experiences,you can talk about the
experiences without actuallyalluding and opening up to the
(15:26):
fact that you are a policeofficer.
So you there are certain thingsyou can generalize.
And then the other thing whichis really important is that in
all meetings, they have thissaying is what you see here,
what you hear here, please letit stay here.
And, you know, from my extensiveexperience of being in 12-step
meetings, that is pretty muchadhered to.
SPEAKER_01 (15:44):
Ironically, that's also my experience too.
Having, you know, one of thechallenges that I find here
particularly.
And yes, I'm calling you out ifyou're listening to this, and
I'm if you're upset about it,call me, talk to me, and I'm not
hard to find.
But there's this chronicuniqueness that comes up
sometimes.
Well, I'm different, I don'tneed the 12 steps, or I'm a
(16:07):
police officer, I gotta handleit myself, or I'm a firefighter.
We have to have our own groups,and yes, I'm calling everyone
out.
If you're upset, just call meout.
How do we change that thoughtprocess?
Because you know, I can't be thesame as a person whose family
has chronic alcoholic syndrome,which you know, we all know that
typically that happens.
(16:28):
How do we address that withpeople who may not who be might
be resistant?
Because we talk about somestigmas, you know, I think
that's one of the stigmas that,well, I'm not one of them, which
I hear unfortunately toofrequently.
How do we address that?
How do we make sure that peopleget the help, whether it's
mental health or substanceabuse?
I know I've kind of deviated alittle bit to substance abuse
now.
(16:48):
I'd like to also include themental health part because
that's important.
And if you get a chance whilewe're explaining the mental
health part, I know whatneurodiversity is, but sometimes
people like hear that, and I'veheard anything from oh, it's
real to it's BS.
And I want to be able to addressboth sides because I think it is
real and I think it's somethingthat we need to address.
SPEAKER_02 (17:10):
Lots of interesting questions in that.
SPEAKER_01 (17:12):
I know I I'm plenty of those.
I just don't have any answers.
SPEAKER_02 (17:16):
Okay, so to deal with the issue of uniqueness, I
think what's interesting is thatprobably everyone will say that
they're unique.
And certainly when you go into a12-step fellowship or you go and
see a doctor or a therapist orpsychiatrist, you're sitting
there thinking, you know, Idon't know if I can say this.
(17:38):
I I I don't know if I can, Idon't know if I can open up, I
don't know.
And what you're worried about isthat you've done something that
they that is terrible andthey're going to judge you for.
And what I realized was thatwe're first and foremost, we are
all human.
Secondly, our behavior and whatwe think and what we do is
(18:04):
actually really common acrossall spectrums, all professions,
all ages, different countries.
So it is normal to feel unique,but the crucial thing is if you
have an issue, whether it's youknow, and whether it's a mental
health issue.
So mental health for me alsoincludes addictions, it includes
(18:27):
you know depression, it includesbipolar, it includes chronic
stress and the other illnessesthat are out there.
SPEAKER_01 (18:34):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (18:35):
And the thing for me, which took me a long time to
sort of understand, is itdoesn't matter what profession
you're in, it doesn't matter ifyou're a police officer or a
fire person or a you know, afirst aider or in the military,
that really doesn't matter.
The important thing is that weare human beings.
(18:58):
We were a human being before wewent in, and we're a human being
when we're there.
And human beings will haveproblems with their body.
And just because of our culture,and I think it's historical,
we're quite happy to go and gethelp for every part of our body
other than our brain.
And it makes now I look back, itmakes no logical sense.
(19:20):
You know, I had bleeding in oneof my eyes and I went partially
blind.
And after I was a bit slow, butafter about a week, I went to
see my doctor and then I went tosee specialists.
SPEAKER_01 (19:30):
Well, you know, it goes with it goes with the
healthcare system.
But anyway, sorry for beingpolitical there for a second.
Please continue.
SPEAKER_02 (19:36):
Yeah, yeah, we're very lucky in that we have a
free health care system here.
SPEAKER_01 (19:40):
Yeah, but sometimes it's hard to get in.
I know Canada is the same time,so some same problem sometimes.
But anyway, the checkup from theneck up, you were talking.
SPEAKER_02 (19:47):
And so for me, if you've got problems with the
brain, it's not you're you'renot weak, you're certainly not
unique.
If you can either go and getprofessional medical help in the
first instance, just get anassessment in the same way that
if you had a knee injury becauseyou fell when you were chasing
someone, or you fell when youwere climbing up a ladder and
(20:10):
the ladder slipped.
If you had a chronic kneeproblem, you'd go and see a knee
specialist, as much as you knowyour medical system will allow
you to do.
And it's the same with thebrain.
If there's it defies logic thatthere can be a problem with the
rest of the body, and we'rehappy to go and see a
professional, but when it comesto the brain, we have this sort
(20:31):
of almost inbuilt default that,and particularly if you're in
sort of like sort of what I callstrong independent professions,
that you should be able tofigure it out yourself.
And my God, I tried for 20years, you know, I tried.
I thought, I am gonna solve thismyself.
I'm gonna think this, this ishow I'm gonna behave, this is
(20:52):
how I'm gonna react.
And I pretty much did that for20 years.
And it's a bit like trying to dothe same for a I wouldn't dream
of trying to think my kneebetter, you know, if it had a
chronic injury.
So I shouldn't, and now Irealize that the faster and the
quicker I can get professionalhelp, whether it's mental health
or neurodiversity, the bettersituation I'm in.
(21:17):
And the interesting thing is, Ithink now in certain fields, so
like in sports, it's acompletely different ball game,
whether it's Formula One or it'srunning or it's Olympics, they
will have a team behind thepeople because they recognize
the brain is just another partof the body, and you need to
(21:38):
look after the brain and thebody to be you know a successful
Formula One driver or asuccessful athlete.
And it is exactly the same forfirst responders.
SPEAKER_01 (21:48):
I go to I can talk about F1 for a long time myself,
big fan.
And you know, I go back to LewisHamilton, and for those who
don't know, very popular won thechampionship a few years ago.
He's struggled the last fewyears, but they've he's been on
a different team.
His team hasn't been assupportive, just my two cents.
Um, but I'm not gonna get intotoo much F1 here.
(22:09):
Uh, but Lewis Hamilton was veryopen about his mental health
struggles, especially when hewas a young kid, and there was a
lot of pressure on him and howthat affected him and his team,
like, and by the way, nothingagainst coaches, all four
coaches, but I also know thatyou need a mental health
professional in order to moveforward, and he was very adamant
(22:29):
about that.
And um, you've got differentguys who have brought that up in
different sports, includingfootball, American football, and
regular football.
And I think that anyprofessional sports or
individual sports, particularlyin individual sports, I think
you get in like you can't turnaround and say my partner is
gonna take over, one of the 10other guys on the field are
(22:50):
gonna take over.
You turn around and there's noone there.
So individual sports inparticular, I find that the
mental healt strain is prettybig and needs to be addressed.
I think that the word you werelooking for is high functioning
individuals who think that I,you know, you you know, my one
of my friends, and I know hestole it from someone else, says
to me, You can't solve the same,you can't solve a problem that
(23:13):
the same brain created.
And you need sometimes anoutsider perspective in order to
address it.
That's why I've had a therapistsince 2000.
I don't even know I've had atherapist forever.
And even when I was young, uhtherapist, I would always say,
Well, I can handle it.
I'm a therapist, I can handleit, I'm a therapist, I can
handle it until I couldn't.
(23:34):
And then I went and I see mytherapist like a right now, it's
about every four to six weeks.
I'm doing okay so so far.
That doesn't mean it won'tchange tomorrow.
So if I need him every week,he's available.
But I think it's having thatmental health.
I'm a high functioning personoverall.
Don't tell my girlfriend or mykids they don't believe it, but
for the most part, most peoplebelieve that.
(23:56):
Um, but I do need someone, andeven the biggest athletes will
tell you that they need that.
How do we really address thatstigma?
Because people just get stuck onthat stuff and saying, Well, I'm
high functioning, I don't needsomeone.
Well, that's ego talkingusually, and I think there's
other things to be addressed,but I would like to hear your
point of view.
SPEAKER_02 (24:14):
Yeah, so I was probably I probably described as
high functioning myself.
So again, I would make thecomparison between high
functioning.
Do we expect if we're highfunctioning, let's say we get
diabetes, is high functioninggoing to help us deal with
(24:34):
diabetes?
No.
Good point.
Is high functioning going tohelp us with a heart problem?
It will probably actuallyaggravate it depending on how
hard we work.
Is high functioning going to youknow help with our body fats,
you know, whether good ones orbad ones?
No.
(24:55):
And actually, if one thinksabout it, if one is high
functioning, so we don't expectapply the same high functioning
rules to our brain that we applyto the rest of our body.
And basically, when a body isput under stress, or even a
natural body, it will, it will,some bodies will find illnesses,
(25:16):
not find illnesses, that'scompletely the wrong word.
Some bodies will be ill forwhatever reason, some bodies
will become ill because of thecircumstances they're in, and
the brain is exactly the same,it's just another part of the
body.
And you made a reallyinteresting point that athletes
who are individuals need thatsort of psychological mental
(25:40):
help, it will be more than teamathletes.
And first responders, I wouldsee as the same because quite
often, as a first responder,you're the only person wherever
you are.
And so the responsibility on youto perform and perform at a high
level is huge.
So if it's acceptable for anathlete, individual athlete, to
(26:01):
get this sort of psychologicalhelp, then for me, logic follows
that first responders who areoften on a scene on their own
need the same type of help.
And the other interesting thing,this word high functioning.
So if you're high functioning,that means you're like so the
athlete is using their body alot and they need help to manage
(26:23):
that.
People who are high functioningare probably using their brain a
lot.
So if you use your body a lotand you we accept that it's
going to have problems, it'sexactly the same for the brain.
If you do certain things to thebrain, if and particularly if
it's through your work, youknow, where you've got no
control, you can't just say,whoops, sorry, bit too much.
(26:45):
I've got to go.
You have to, you know, whetherit's a traffic accident or it's,
you know, it's a fight or it's afar fight, whatever it is, you
have to deal with it.
And as you're dealing with it asa high function person, you may
be doing really well, but thebrain is continually being
impacted by whatever you'redealing with.
(27:05):
And so what I would say,whether, you know, whatever,
whatever it is, whether it's amental health issue, and so for
me, it was chronic depressionand bipolar disorder type two.
And in terms of neurodiversity,I have dyslexia, which means
that I have problems readingthings, I have problems with
remembering, I have problemsdoing two things at once.
(27:28):
So for me, like when I was inthe police and we would, we
would team up on night duty inwhat we call fast response cars,
and you'd have the driver, you'dhave an operator and somebody in
plain clothes in the back.
And I hated being the operatorbecause I had to listen to the
radio and then tell where thedriver needed to go.
And I was just hopeless at it.
(27:48):
I couldn't remember any of theroads, even though I've been
there for years.
And I now realize that a lot ofthat was because when my brain
processes information as aperson, someone who has
dyslexia, I'm if I'm trying toprocess two things at once, my
brain just goes like a sort offuzzy television.
It just sort of crackles out.
SPEAKER_01 (28:10):
Well, I think that I wrote it down because I thought
it was a great point.
High functioning people will usetheir brain.
So therefore, they probably needto get it checked out.
I like that.
And I think that the whole fuzzybrain in when you're doing two
things at once, and especially,you know, in a higher stress
environment, this is not um, youknow, coordinating the choir.
It's a little more complex whenyou're working as a police
(28:32):
officer, firefighter, firstresponder, EMT, paramedic, or
what have you.
Definitely plays a factor too.
One of the things that I wasalso wondering, and I don't know
if you've encountered this, butif you haven't, this, you know,
certainly advice is alwayswelcome.
Sometimes people will see theircolleagues struggle.
They'll even tell me in therapy.
(28:53):
Some of my clients will be like,oh, you know, one of my guys is
having problems, or one of myfriends is having problems at
work.
And they said, and they go, youknow, how do I get them to
therapy?
I'm like, well, you tell themthat they probably need therapy.
And how do we change how wecommunicate that to anyone?
Because I think it's somethingthat is stigmatized too.
(29:13):
It's not like you go around andtell people, you know, you need
mental help.
Help.
I think that that's somethingthat uh comes up a lot in
America, particularly.
And I think in general, I thinkit's one of those things, even
in more accepting countries, forlack of a better word.
There's still this uh go getsome help has a huge stigma and
kind of like uh, you know, whoare you to tell me I need a
(29:36):
mental health help?
SPEAKER_02 (29:38):
Yeah, it's tricky.
And I think it's also tricky inwhere you've got all male
environments or predominantlymale environments.
And I think it's just a fact,you know, it's a feature of men
and believing that, you know,they should be able to manage on
their own and do everything ontheir own.
(29:58):
The way around that will be.
Through education, throughtraining supervisors on what to
do, what to look for, how torespond, what are the services
available.
So I would say, from myexperience, how you help someone
as a colleague, I think ifyou're a supervisor, it might be
(30:21):
slightly easier.
Certainly I found it easier whenI was a sergeant supervising
young constables.
I found it easier to approachsort of sensitive subjects like
that because I had a duty ofcare for them.
So it didn't seem too strangethat I would do that.
But with colleagues, I would sayit's the same as friends in the
(30:42):
first instance, is you know,just see if they want to have a
talk, if they want to have atalk in private.
I don't think it'd be too remissto say, you know, are you okay?
Do you want to have a chat?
And if you think it's going itwill be accepted, you could say,
God, you seem to have been a bitdown or you seem to have been
struggling recently.
(31:03):
Would you like to have a chat?
So I think that's one thing.
And in the first instance,unless it's an emergency and you
know, somebody's having apsychotic episode, or you know,
I've been in instances whereobviously this didn't happen and
it's my imagination, but um I'vebeen in instances where you know
(31:25):
the driver of the police car orthe police van is drunk, or the
detective can hardly stand ontheir feet.
You know, what do you do?
And in those sort of instances,it's like it's you have to take
immediate action.
Whether you report it, I don'tthink there's a hard and fast
rule.
Well, the rule is you report it.
(31:46):
What you do in reality, I thinkthere is certain flexibility
depending on what the situationis.
Yeah, so I would say withcolleagues, it's as a
supervisor, it's easy becauseyou have that duty of care.
And also within the people yousupervise, you have that ability
to define what is acceptable andnot acceptable.
(32:08):
And it may be different in otherteams, other units, but you have
a certain amount of freedom andauthority to define what can be
done.
With colleagues and friends, I Iwould say in the first instance
is just asking it, just simplyeither asking, can I be of any
help or asking, would you liketo have a chat would be the
(32:28):
first thing, unless it's anemergency, in which case I might
isolate someone, you know, ifthey've been drinking or if
they're having a psychoticepisode.
I mean, the first thing I woulddo would be to isolate them and
then take it from there.
SPEAKER_01 (32:44):
You know, I I gotta say, Jonathan, that um one of
the favorite things that yousaid there is that as a leader,
you saw these things and you didsomething.
One of my messages that you willhear throughout my podcast, and
anyone who knows me, that youknow, having stripes and badges
that are, you know, whatever youwant to call them, leadership.
(33:05):
And you got to get it, take aleadership on everything,
including health, mental health,substance use, everything else.
I think that that's one of thethings.
Let's add another layer.
I don't think you need to be aleader with stripes or whatever
they call them.
I don't know if it's the samedown in um in the UK in
particular, but here it'sstripes.
I tell them you don't needstripes in order to be a leader.
(33:28):
You go talk to someone.
Hey, are you okay?
Come and talk to them.
Like you said, I like the ideasthat you gave, but more
importantly, making sure thatyou don't need to be a leader at
anything to be a support forpeople struggling, particularly
if you're struggling with likeyou talk bipolar two disorder.
And for those of you who don'tknow, that's more of a depressed
type than it is the manic type.
(33:50):
And DSM might kick my butt fornot for describing it that
simply, but it's really thatsimple in some ways.
I think that that's the stuffthat I really talk about with my
my colleagues too, is that Idon't need to be a leader in
order to support people.
And um, hopefully we can work onthat stigma overall.
But you know, one of the thingsthat I really was interested in
(34:11):
too is that I know you're anauthor.
I am an author too, so I respectthat significantly.
And I see it behind you, findingpeace of mind.
Would love to hear more aboutyour book because I think that
some of our audience wouldreally benefit from having some
of that, those readings andhaving your book.
So please tell a little moreabout our your book.
Yeah, by all means.
SPEAKER_02 (34:32):
So I I realized during COVID.
Well, the first thing is duringCOVID, I thought that would be
really easy because I know whatshit feels like, and um it was
an absolute nightmare.
I had three by three or fourbipolar highs and crashes, and
by the end of it, I was at mywit's end.
(34:52):
But the positive side of thatwas I went to get proper medical
help again, changed mymedications, and then after
that, it was like a miracle.
It wasn't an effort to think, tobreathe, to enjoy the sunshine.
It was a complete miracle.
And during that stage, I decidedthat actually one of the sort of
(35:14):
greatest, one of the greatest,if not the greatest wealth I
have is my knowledge andexperience about mental health
and neurodiversity.
And so I thought if I couldcapture that in a book, hence
finding peace of mind, I couldthen share that with others.
And that idea of being able totake something that's had a huge
negative impact and use it toyou know help or empower or
(35:39):
inspire others really appealed.
So I wrote the book and itcovers sort of three distinct
areas.
One is my memoir where I talkabout my various experiences.
I was also a cowboy in Australiafor a year.
So it was amazing.
It was probably the, if not oneof the best, the best year of my
life.
It was incredible.
So the first section is mymemoir.
(36:01):
The second section is myanalysis of what helps.
So because I'm high functioning,I'm highly analytical, I've been
constantly reviewing, you know,what works, what doesn't work,
what could I tweak, what could Idevelop.
And I thought that's anotherarea I can bring huge value is
the fact that I'm highlyanalytical.
So I put in a section of thebook, it's been 120 pages, of
(36:23):
things that work.
So, for example, I cover 12questions that I had that
stopped me from getting help.
So the number one was it'ssimple, you know, seeing a
therapist is a weakness, it's amission of defeat.
So I put what I used to thinkand what I think now, which is
the is the most sensible thingto do if you have a mental
illness.
And then I also put in what Icall 14 foundations.
(36:45):
So these are like foundationblocks, and everybody will have
different ones, but these are myfoundation blocks that I try and
maintain to to keep good mentalhealth.
And funnily enough, number oneis sleep.
Without sleep, I'm, you know,I'm I'm struggling straight
away.
And so that is that is the book.
It goes live on the 10th ofOctober this year, which is
(37:08):
World Mental Health Day.
And what I've decided to do forthe first, because I'm promoting
it, I never feel quitecomfortable with the idea of
sort of self-promotion to theidea of financial gain.
I know in some situations it'sperfectly normal and acceptable.
And I think for something likethis, it just doesn't quite sit
(37:28):
comfortably with me.
So what I've decided to do isfor the first year from
publication, all profits will goto four mental health charities.
And what I've decided to do interms of getting the book out
there, because there's onething, you know, writing it,
another thing, publishing it,another completely different
ball game is getting it outthere.
(37:48):
I've decided to do a seven-monthwalk and talk.
So I'll start in the ShetlandIslands in the north of
Scotland.
I'm going to walk all the waythrough Scotland, England, up
through Wales, across toIreland, and down the length of
Ireland.
And it'll be seven months on theroad.
And during this time, I will dotalks.
(38:09):
I will do in-person interviews,random interviews.
And again, for the whole of thatseven months, I'll be raising
money for these for mentalhealth charities.
SPEAKER_01 (38:20):
Wow.
Well, you know, I think that isthere a way for us to follow you
anywhere on the internet fromwhile you're doing that walk?
SPEAKER_02 (38:27):
Yes.
So I'm setting everything up atthe moment.
And funny enough, I'm hoping topersuade or encourage some of my
colleagues that I used to be inthe Met Police with to um
actually help me in terms ofsupport.
So these are people I've knownfor 40 years, and they're still
friends.
Wow.
(38:47):
Yeah, I have some really, reallygood friends from the Met
Police, and uh yeah, I treasurethose friendships.
So at the moment, it should golive, hopefully, in about a week
or so.
Um, is my website,jonathankemp.com.
And from there you will see thewalk and the social media
channels.
(39:08):
And the reason I'm some peoplesay, are you sure you want to
start on the 1st of January?
So I'll be starting on the 1stof January in the northernmost
island above Scotland.
And the reason I'm doing that isbecause the weather will, I'm, I
think safe to say, will beappalling.
But that reflects mental health.
(39:29):
You know, sometimes it isreally, really tough.
And all we can do, you know,even when we're on duty, is
literally put one foot in frontof the other.
And so that's the reason ofstarting then.
SPEAKER_01 (39:40):
And you're gonna walk all the way down to London,
or are you gonna go even deeperinto like almost to what sorry,
I'm gonna plug Boston on the uhwhat would be the uh east side
of England.
SPEAKER_02 (39:54):
Yeah, so I'm gonna go down to London and then I
want to try and limit it toseven months because I could see
it could just go on atinfinitum.
So depending on how I'm doingtime-wise, I want to then go
down to the south coast ofEngland, walk along, then walk
up to South Wales.
Yep, which is on the left-handside of England.
(40:16):
Yes, left side, left-hand sideof England.
Um, I want to go from SouthWales to North Wales, then cross
over the Irish Sea and go fromNorthern Ireland all the way
down to the Southern Ireland,the tip of to not quite the tip
of Southern Ireland, but veryfar down.
SPEAKER_01 (40:32):
Well, I'm taking a trip down to Ireland in uh April
next year in 2026.
So if you are there, I wouldlove to meet you on your walk.
Uh, and if you're not, well,I'll be close.
Uh, and I will definitely beencouraging you because you know
it it it is a great, I love thevisual of how mental health
starts, you know, cloudy, startsvery stormy at times, and how it
(40:57):
gets progressively better, justlike the seasons do.
So uh would love to be theretoo.
And then for the book, this youknow, this podcast will be out
in October, beginning ofOctober.
So it'll be only a couple ofdays afterwards.
So I will encourage people to goand buy it.
Where can we uh buy the bookonline?
Because most of my audience willbe out here in North America, so
(41:20):
just wanted to see where we canbuy it online.
SPEAKER_02 (41:22):
Yeah, so all being well, it should be on US Amazon
at that time and also Barnes andNoble as well, and it should be
orderable.
Orderable orderable, that's theword.
So as the French Canadian guy,but anyway, go ahead.
Yeah, it should be exactly thatum from most bookshops.
(41:45):
But if anybody has any problem,if they contact me through my
website, jonathankemp.com, thenI'll help them out.
SPEAKER_01 (41:52):
Well, I'm gonna be happy to put all that in the
show notes.
We'll be looking forward toreading your book when it comes
out.
And as you set it up, I'm surethat by then we're gonna be able
to follow you.
And if you are in Ireland, wouldlove to see you.
Um I love well uh I've only beento Wales once and I really found
it very quite lovely.
(42:13):
Although I've got to be honest,my favorite part, as I've said
to many people in England, wasthe Lake District area, uh,
which I thought was fantastic.
But of course, not everyoneenjoys that.
So Jonathan, I really appreciateyour time.
I hope uh people go buy yourbook, go to your website, follow
your walk starting in January2026.
(42:36):
And thank you again.
Really appreciate this talk.
SPEAKER_02 (42:39):
Thank you very much for having me.
It's been uh yeah, it's been areally interesting talk.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (42:44):
And uh for those of you joining me, uh, can't wait
for episode 225.
Hope you join me then.
SPEAKER_00 (42:52):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(43:15):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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