October 8, 2025 • 29 mins
Burnout doesn’t just come from the calls—it grows in the silence after, inside a culture that either catches you or drops you. We sit down with Renae, a former firefighter-paramedic who now coaches first responders on burnout recovery and nervous system regulation, to unpack how leadership betrayal, union politics, and the loss of seasoned mentors quietly shape morale, retention, and the quality of care on scene.
Renae walks us through two starkly different departments: one with strong traditions, shared meals, and senior firefighters who taught without needing stripes; another that pushed out elders, fast-tracked promotions, and sold “progress” through spoken promises that never made it to paper. The result? Rapid rank with thin experience, confused standards, and burnout that looks like apathy but feels like betrayal. Along the way, we explore why it’s easier to part ways in anger than on good terms, how that psychology plays out in unions and leadership, and what happens when EMS integration shifts priorities without protecting mentorship.
This conversation is practical at its core. We outline how to rebuild a real firehouse: formalize mentorship roles for elders, protect shared rituals that transmit norms, and require written commitments instead of handshakes. We dig into nervous system skills—breathing, grounding, pacing, boundaries—and explain why they only stick inside supportive systems. If you care about first responder wellness, leadership development, and building resilient teams that last, these lessons are for you.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with your crew, and leave a review so more first responders can find it. And make sure to be back for part 2 in the next episode.
You can reach Renae on several platforms to discuss this episode and her program.
Her website is waywardwellnesscoaching.org
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/waywardwellnesscoaching/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/people/Wayward-Wellness-Coaching/61566792351111/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wayward_wellness_coaching/
And if you’re struggling right now, reach out for professional support—and remember, 988 is available for crisis help in the U.S. and Canada.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development and
Action, where strength meansstrategy and courage to help you
move forward.
Each week, your host, SteveBasel, a therapist with over two
decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth, and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions, and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress management,and emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
SPEAKER_02 (00:41):
You know, you've heard me talk about this before.
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(01:03):
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Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 225.
If you haven't listened toepisode 224 yet, it was Jonathan
(01:26):
Kemp.
We talked about great stuff,especially with first
responders, coaching, uh, and Ihope you go listen to that.
But with episode 225, I havesomeone that I've known for a
while, uh, Renee Mansfield.
She's sitting right next to me.
This is our first time in thestudio, so if I look nervous, I
am.
And I'm gonna stop looking atthe camera because that makes it
even more weird because I wantto look at my guests.
(01:47):
So, Renee, welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.
SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
Thank you.
Hello.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
Well, it's good to have you here and be my first
guest in this environment.
Uh, we're both a little fish outof water here, uh, but I really
appreciate you coming on.
I know we we had a little bit oftrouble getting recorded at the
beginning of uh August, I wantto say.
SPEAKER_01 (02:07):
Yes, yeah.
I'm actually glad that it gotcanceled because this is really
as much as it's kind of weirdbeing on the cameras, it is kind
of nice being the first one.
It's nice.
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
Well, I'm happy that you're the first one because
I've known you for a while.
I think the work you do isexceptional.
The stuff that you're gonna bedoing, and you know, right
before the pre-interview, so tospeak, we were talking about
stuff that we might want to dotogether uh because you didn't
know a little bit about my shit.
So uh, but anyway, uh I knowyou, but I think that you know
(02:37):
the audience of resiliencedevelopment in action want to
know who you are.
So how about you say a littlebit about yourself?
SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
Right.
So I am um so weird, I don'tknow to look at the cameras.
I'm gonna look at you.
SPEAKER_02 (02:48):
Yeah, I defaulted, I'm looking at you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Um yeah, so I am a former firefighter paramedic
that has turned to a burnoutrecovery and um nervous system
regulation coach.
And so now I develop programsfor police and fire departments
to help wellness andleadership-driven kind of
(03:11):
retention strategies.
And um then I also do one-on-onecoaching with individuals, first
responders, and high performersto help with their burnout
recovery and also teaching themhow to regulate their nervous
system as well.
And then on the side, I alsoperform and do music um with a
band.
Well, call it a band, but myboyfriend and I.
(03:32):
Um we do musician stuff as wellas a side hustle.
So it's a little bit of me in anutshell.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
Well, you know, I I I knew all that stuff, and uh,
if you weren't gonna mention theband, I certainly was.
Yeah.
Um and I know you have a lot ofexperience as a firefighter, and
you know, part of resiliencedevelopment in action is
definitely talking about firstresponders in particular.
But you know, you're like, oh,gee Willeker, Steve, I want to
be on your podcast.
What made you decide to come onto the podcast?
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
Well, really, I know that we've had a lot of these
conversations about changing theculture of first responder, um,
you know, police, fire, EMS, andall of that nature.
Uh, but I really wanted to comeon the podcast because I do
listen to all the differentpeople that you've spoken to,
and um, I wanted to kind of Iwant to talk a little bit about
(04:25):
my program and how it kind ofpertains to that, and um just
have a great conversation withyou about how you know really
resilience with the firstresponder culture in the world,
and um yeah, just kind of talkabout really how important it is
to address the nature of our jobin really between, I guess
(04:49):
bridging the gap between thetoxicity of leadership and
burnout, because a lot of thetimes we address burnout in the
first responder culture astrauma, and while that does play
a role in it with the calls,it's not necessarily, I know
(05:10):
we've talked about this, it'snot necessarily the you know,
the the peak of it, right?
And um leadership betrayal,department betrayal, it kind of
serves a higher purpose, and atleast for me, that was my
biggest um driving force when itcame to leaving the fire
department and my own burnoutand uh experience.
(05:33):
And so I guess that's what hadled me to not only leave the
fire department, but to kind ofcome back, which I never
expected, and develop thisprogram to help change the
culture from the inside out.
And um so I guess it's kind ofwhat I wanted to talk about and
address is that it's more thanjust the trauma of the calls.
(05:53):
Uh, it's also the way that theleadership plays a role as well.
SPEAKER_02 (05:58):
I I agree with you.
I think that we've had theseconversations privately many,
many times.
People who've listened to mypodcast know I'm done with this
whole it's trauma, it's trauma,it's trauma.
Okay, I'm not saying it doesn'texist, but it certainly exists.
And I think that that's part ofour private conversations is
that, you know, sometimes it'show you're treated by
administration, sometimes it'sabout how you're treated by your
(06:19):
colleagues.
And again, sorry if I'm toocontroversial, but being a woman
in this in the servicesometimes, and this is not a
criticism of anyone you've everworked with, but sometimes being
a woman in this field doublesdown on how difficult it can be
for a woman versus a man.
So I think that there's so manythings we can go down like
different roads here.
But I guess that for me, theleadership stuff really stands
(06:41):
out because that's definitelywhat we want to talk about.
One of my favorite sayings isfrom my uh friend Jay Ball, who
says you don't need stripes tobe a leader.
But unfortunately, the leadersmake the hard decisions and not
necessarily caring about whatthey originally signed up for
when they were firefighters,which was, you know, respect
people, be and I don't know all,and again, I pretend I'm a
(07:03):
therapist, I don't pretend Iknow what your models and all
that stuff is.
But I wonder if you want to talka little bit about, you know,
how the culture was where you'reat, particularly with you know
your colleagues and everythingelse that goes with that.
SPEAKER_01 (07:17):
Right.
I think that I have a couple ofdifferent experiences too,
because I was at two differentdepartments, two vastly
different departments, too, Iwould say, at that.
And um, then also adding in theEMS aspect with that too.
So, in total, I was in the fireEMS world in about a decade.
With that said, I saw adepartment that was larger, and
(07:41):
um, you know, I wasn't the onlyfemale.
In fact, that department was oneof the first departments that
did have uh one of the firstfemales back in the day, and uh
they were a driving force inthat, and I never had a bad
experience with as being afemale, um, but that was a
totally different experiencewhen it came to the union versus
(08:02):
the chief.
So that had a totally differentfeel when it came to that.
Um, it was almost like thepissing match.
And um sometimes I look back andI I do I say I regret leaving,
but some I don't at the sametime because it did lead me to
the path that I am in now.
Um but at the same time it feltmore like a firehouse in the way
(08:27):
that it was run, right?
That first department I was in.
And um, the main reason that Idid leave was um just it was
starting to get the same thing,politics over people.
Uh and it was really just likeit became a pissing match
between the union and the chiefand the town administrator.
So at that point there was aweak chief, so it was just
(08:50):
really it was the union againstthe town administrator in this
leckman.
So I was one of the first lastones that was hired, so I would
have been one of the first onesto go had something ever
changed.
So I kind of was putting feelersout there to change and
laterally transfer.
And um, just to give you a feelof how the politics over people
(09:13):
was going on, um, the chiefwouldn't sign off for me to
laterally transfer.
So I actually, when I did end updeciding to transfer in the
rose-colored glasses that I hadfor the department I ended up
transferring to, that we canobviously get into, um that
chief didn't sign for me totransfer.
(09:33):
So therefore, I actually had tocompletely start over with the
other department.
So I had to do the PATcompletely over, I had to do the
psychology test all over, I hadto do everything from scratch,
even though I had like six yearsunder my belt.
And um it I was I had the otherchief not um completely allowed
(09:55):
me to do like a full step ladderof where I was, I could have
started completely as like arookie.
Um, so it could have completelyscrewed me up.
So um it's interesting how itall happened, but um so yeah,
again, the chief that Itransferred to, that's how it
started, right?
(10:15):
So he made it sound like thisgrandioso thing, I'm doing this
favor for you.
And that's I was like, oh, thisis great.
With that said, transferringinto a department where I was
the first and only female.
And um, my captain, Ispecifically remember that was
from the old department, said,if there's ever anyone that's
gonna be transferring over intoa department that's the first
(10:38):
and only female, um, you aregonna be a great example of
that.
And I felt like that was like,oh well, thank you for that.
Because I felt like I was one ofthe guys, you know, like I was
at the point, I was like makingthe guys blush, you know, like I
was definitely crude, you know,like I had no shame, you know.
(10:58):
Like I was definitely fit rightin when it came to the jokes,
and um it it didn't seem anydifferent.
But it's interesting becausewhen I left or as I was leaving,
um the dynamics changed, youknow, because I was still doing
half and half.
I was finishing out my few 24sthat I had at that last
(11:21):
department, and then I was stilldoing the transfers over into
like the four weeks of traininginto the new department, and um
the guys from the old departmentstarted treating me so weird,
and it really wasn't until Istarted I met this um woman not
too long ago.
She's was uh she's a retired umCoast Guard, and now she does uh
(11:43):
she's a therapist, and she'skind of doing similar things
that I'm kind of doing.
But um she said something abouthow uh it's easier for people to
leave like angry than it is toleave on good terms for some
reason, like the psychology ofit.
SPEAKER_02 (12:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:04):
And uh I guess you would be the expert in that.
SPEAKER_02 (12:07):
I'm the expert of nothing, but okay.
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
And I was like, that is so interesting because when I
left the dynamics did leave ordid change.
So it was like they became soaggressive and angry when I was
leaving, and it was so strange.
SPEAKER_02 (12:25):
Well, I could I could tell you a little bit
about the psychology, and I wantto get back to a few things you
said, because there's one thingthat you mentioned that was
really sounded like we need todig a little more.
But um, the reason why peoplewant to be in adversarial ways
when you cut out is that thatgives you a reason to.
And when you leave it in anamicable way, but you may never
(12:45):
talk to them again, whichhappens more often than we we
want to believe, we tend to omitthat information.
We only remember, well, you knowwhat, Renee was kind of a bitch
or whatever, because that'seasier for me to justify that
you're gone than it is for me tosay, you know how sweet she was
or how great she was or she mademe blush or whatever.
That's difficult to say, well, Idon't have any contact with her
(13:07):
anymore.
So that's the psychology behindthat.
And the lateral transfers, maleor female, that happens all the
time, from what my guys and mygals tell me.
And it's just weird to mebecause even when I complete
therapy with some of my clients,some of my clients look for a
fight in the last session.
I'm like, why are we fighting?
Why do we have to fight?
We can leave in good terms.
There's nothing wrong with that.
(13:27):
Right.
Um, and it's changed over timeafter we've had conversations.
But one of the things we talkedabout is a real firehouse,
which, you know, is somethingthat I hear a lot and I know
what that means.
But I think that I would love tohear your perspective on that
and what that means because Ithink that there's um I I always
say to different people who askme about the greatest, who's the
(13:50):
good chief?
Who's a good leader?
I said, people who rememberwhere it was to be boots on the
ground.
Those are guys.
Koch Guard, you talked aboutyour your colleague there.
Um boots on the ground is soimportant, remembering where
you've been, you know.
And I think that that to me isalways a good sign of
leadership.
But you're talking about a goodfirehouse.
Is that part of what you'retalking about?
SPEAKER_01 (14:12):
Yeah, because I would say when I see it felt
more like a real firehouse, I sosomething that I kind of
backtracking a little bit.
I've had these conversations alittle bit, and then I kind of
had noticed it.
Someone else has mentioned it.
I've gotten a little bit moreinto LinkedIn a little bit, and
(14:32):
I feel like I've had some reallygreat conversations in that.
And I feel like people alsoshare a little bit.
I know my ADDHD is going alittle bit.
I'm coming full circle, Ipromise.
That's okay.
We'll come back to thefirehouse.
It's okay.
No, it's coming back around.
But someone also sharedsomething.
It makes me not feel as crazywhen I feel like I say that when
EMS came into the fire station,I feel like it's when maybe the
(14:56):
firehouse started to crumble alittle bit.
Okay.
Um, I feel like it's a couple ofreasons, mostly because it has
to be a little bit moreprofit-driven.
Um obviously EMS has to makemoney somehow because it has to
bank its funds back as it spendsa lot more money.
Um at the same time, bringing itfull circle.
(15:19):
So feeling like more of afirehouse, I feel like I'm
alluding to the fact that it hadmore mentorship, right?
More leadership.
While it had its problems,obviously, um, with its
leadership and some toxic,ego-driven mentality.
Um, I look back and there was alot of senior guys.
(15:42):
And when you're talking aboutthe badge and the ranks, I feel
like you don't need a badge or arank, obviously, to be a leader.
There was a lot of senior guysthat I remember that took me
under my under their wing,right?
I can think of like when on thatdepartment, you get my I got put
on the ladder truck.
So I was the third guy in theladder truck when I wasn't on
(16:02):
the ambulance.
And um the ladder guy that wasalways the ladder driver, um, I
just specifically rememberedthere's so many times.
So one of the things in thatdepartment is that you for the
first year you weren't reallysupposed to be upstairs unless
um there was a reason, right?
(16:24):
Um mostly because you just hadso much to learn.
You're the first year, you know,like you should be downstairs if
you're not on a call, goingthrough all the trucks.
You know, you have so much to begoing through.
And you shouldn't be upstairswatching TV if you're on if
you're not on calls.
Um you should want to learn moreif you are, you know, not
(16:47):
running calls or doing reports.
Um, you know, you're just aproby.
And so um, yeah, I justspecifically remember he would
come down, and there was one daywhere I was down on the
apparatus bay, and he's like,Hey, do you want to go through
the ladder truck?
And I was like, absolutely.
So he just started pullingthings off the ladder.
You know, he didn't have abadge.
He didn't even, I don't even heto even to this day, he doesn't
(17:09):
have like a badge or a rank, youknow.
And he like, I just specificallyremember him going around the
truck and always doing that withme.
And uh it's something I tookwith me throughout the rest of
my career, even on the laddertruck in the next department.
So um he was the senior guy tome.
You know, there was a few seniorguys, and I just remember that
(17:30):
that's what makes a really greatdepartment is leadership and
mentorship, and I think thatthat's what a lot of departments
have lost.
And so when I went to the otherdepartment, um, we were a very
young department, and I was soldthis progressive idea, which
what I meant by thoserose-colored glasses, it sounded
(17:52):
great, right?
And I was a fairly into myparamedic career at that point.
Um, so I was like, this isawesome.
I want to be a progressiveparamedic, and I want to be a
progressive firefighter as well.
Right.
But um at the same time, I lovedthe idea of progressive EMS, and
(18:13):
um, it seemed like that's whatwas going to be happening.
And um, it seemed like that'swhat was gonna be happening in
general, progressivementalities, and uh it was soul
as the idea, but not knowingthat this particular chief was
gonna be driving out the oldergeneration, knowing now because
(18:36):
they knew him, and I don't thinkhe liked that, you know.
So I liked having the oldergeneration because I think they
have a lot of value, they have alot of wisdom.
And when they started becoming,you know, upset and disgruntled,
he didn't like that they werearound and they could retire,
(18:57):
you know, so they either had toshit or get off the pot, you
know, fall in line with him orretire early.
SPEAKER_02 (19:04):
And so um pretty problematic language when you
say fall in line, just for therecord.
But please go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (19:10):
So uh many of them ended up just retiring early.
And um, so that was a huge issuebecause then a lot of them that
were, you know, were very young,like I said, anywhere under
thirty forty years old.
And um, that's problematic whenyou're in a fire department.
You know, you think that youhave all of this knowledge, you
(19:32):
don't.
And like, and then also when Igot transferred over, there was
guys that had less thanexperience than I had, and um
which is crazy to think aboutthat they were then going to be
lieutenants and captains, and Ididn't have seniority because I
was transferred over, you know,like and not signed off, right?
(19:53):
So it was like this is bonkers,and I shouldn't even have
seniority, right?
You know, so like I I wasn'teven saying it because I thought
I should have rank, you know.
I don't think anyone should haverank at this point.
Like, we're all like five yearsin, you know, five to eight, you
know, eights, whatever that youwere building up, but at that
(20:15):
point some guys had three, andit was just like it was just
getting crazy.
So when I say that the otherdepartment felt like it was more
of a firehouse, we sat down fordinners, we had a guy that
cooked.
Um we just valued things thatstill valued the firehouse, you
(20:36):
know.
We still sat around and atetogether.
Uh the probies still took thetrash out.
Right.
You know, we still um I stillhad to get afternoon coffees,
morning coffees, morninglunches.
Like I got stiffed so many timeswith money because like I would
still have to go out, pick upthe lunches, you know, like and
(20:58):
all that stuff.
But it's like it is what it is.
You know, I paid my dues.
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
I should have bought you a coffee just for that.
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
No, I had a system going, man.
Like I had I someone, the guybefore me, he's like download
the dunks app, and we had thedunks right across the street.
Like, so like literally we'regonna be.
SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
Which Firehouse doesn't, by the way.
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
Right, exactly.
I I swear that they put dunksright next to the police and
fire stations.
But I downloaded the dunks appand I just raked up points.
And so like I I always got freedrinks because like I just paid
through my dunks app, and thenyou know it was great.
SPEAKER_02 (21:32):
Well, that's a good system to have.
SPEAKER_01 (21:33):
Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (21:34):
Um and you know, Milford has to work on putting a
dunks right across from the firestation here.
Uh Milford Mass, for those whoare listening nationally and
internationally.
But there's a lot of stuff thatyou mentioned, and I don't even
know where to go because I Ithink that you you brought up
something that comes upconstantly in my group is that
the experience level.
(21:55):
And what I mean by that is, youknow, you got someone who's
still wet behind the ear, whohas an LT or a captain or
whatever, and doesn't knowbecause they have education, but
there's no one else to replacethem, because the old
generation's going away.
I mean, like in the next fiveyears, most of the quote, older
generation, people my age, I'mnot a firefighter.
(22:15):
I do not pretend I am.
But I think that at the end ofthe day, we're losing a lot of
that.
And then we have a lot of youngpeople, but not a whole lot in
between.
And I think that scares a wholelot of departments, particularly
firefighters retiring, and eventhe young guys who come to see
me, they're like, we don't haverelief.
We're we're we're like, we'rewe're not ready for this.
And of course, you're full ofpiss and vinegar, because hey,
(22:37):
who doesn't know everything whenuh they're 25 and 30?
And then you turn 30 and you go,My God, I knew nothing.
And then by the time you're 40,you're like, I really know
nothing about life.
Um I think that that there's alot of stuff to be said about
that, and having leadership thatchooses a younger generation, in
my view, like having those BLTsand captains and all that, it's
(23:00):
a great way to have morecontrol.
But that's my two cents.
SPEAKER_01 (23:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (23:04):
You want it, you seem to be go jump in, I want to
hear it.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
Well, no, I just think that it's especially now
knowing, just veryimpressionable, right?
Like I saw a strong unionagainst a weak chief, and I saw
in the previous department howhow much they fought against
that chief.
And while I know, you know, itdid become a pissing match, but
(23:27):
still I appreciated the factthat they would fight for us no
matter what.
It was always the guys, likeguys and girls, whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (23:35):
I don't give a but it but okay, so just for the
record, for those of you whodon't know, guys also includes
the women in departments, and noone's ever offended by that
shit.
So if you're ever offended bythat, write to me, write to
Monet.
But ultimately, I've never heardany of my female clients go, oh,
I'm not one of the guys.
They're okay with thatstatement.
Please go ahead.
Sorry.
That's my little politicalstatement for the day.
(23:57):
Have a great day.
Anyway, keep on going.
SPEAKER_01 (23:59):
Right.
So um, yeah, they would justalways fight for you never
questioned that, right?
So um it was just a differentstory with the other department.
And um one thing that wasgetting really frustrating with
the other department is when thee board being so impressionable,
(24:21):
um, especially towards the endof my career before I left, was
that they were starting to getsomething was becoming a little
off, right?
So the three um our three-yearcontract was coming up, and it
was just they were saying thatthe chief was offering these
(24:41):
things, just um nothing wasgonna be written, it was all
spoken promises.
I knew from our the previousdepartment, you never do
anything based off of spokenpromises because it never pans
out, it's always a tactic.
And old got old timers, theyknow that.
(25:01):
Old timers know that spokenpromises are broken promises,
right?
So you never base off of acontract with that.
And so I remember specificallyat a union meeting, which mind
you, okay, get this.
They put into our union contractfor our union dues to pay for
(25:22):
beers at the American Legion topay for our beers while we were
drinking during our unionmeetings, which what right?
Only 30-year-olds would do that,right?
Like, yeah, so get drunk afterthe union meetings.
We would do that after our othertoo.
But not to be.
Sorry to break the veil, but uh,you know, and that's another
(25:44):
issue, right?
We do that as a coping mechanismthat as firefighter, anyone in
the first responder realm,that's a whole different issue.
But putting that into our unioncontract, that like our union
dues are paying for our beerswhile we're drinking, during our
union meetings, making hugedecisions for our contract, and
(26:07):
now you're being blindsided bythe strong chief that's
promising you these things,saying that you're gonna get a
3-1-1, like 3%, 1%, 1%, and thenit turns into like a 4-1-0.
You know, it was just like, andthen they're taking away a lot
of stipends and then promisingafter that.
(26:28):
And I'm just like, you you don'tunderstand what you're about to
give away because you're nevergonna give it back.
And they're like, he's promisingX, Y, and Z.
And then after that, all ofthese people are then promoted.
I was like, all right.
Yeah, this is what happened.
(26:49):
This is this is the impression.
Impression and impressionable,right?
SPEAKER_02 (26:55):
Exactly, the impressionable, and I think that
that's why like part of theexperience is to learn to sit
there for five years and watchit.
And I say five years, I thinkfor any job, you know nothing
for five years.
You may think you knoweverything, but then you have
something like that.
Like, why drink beers?
I I don't understand that.
I understand after.
Frankly, I understand prior, uh,but I don't understand during.
(27:18):
Um, and it's not endorsing that,it's just noting the behavior.
Um I think that the other parttoo that you mentioned is that
there's a lot of shift inmentorship.
And I think that for me, one ofthe greatest things that I do as
a therapist to other therapistsis try to mentor them.
And a lot of people would say tome, Well, um, how much are you
(27:38):
how much do you want?
And usually I say, get me acoffee or go for breakfast or
whatever.
But I feel like the fired policeused to have that mentorship
type of environment that hasslowly gone away, not only
because we're losing the peoplewith a lot of experience, but
we're also losing a lot ofpeople who are willing to do
that.
Uh, you talked about that.
And you know, if you had a goodmentorship, you have someone
(28:00):
from the e board who's beenthere for a few years going,
This is wrong, guys, we can't dothat.
But I think it's missing, and Ithink mentorship is key, I
think, to the fire service,police service.
I think that it goes for a wholelot of different things.
Uh, but I think the mentorshipis clearly something that has
shifted in that environment, ifyou ask me.
SPEAKER_01 (28:18):
Right.
And that's what happens when youlose that mentorship, is that it
becomes toxic because if youhave one person that's driving
the force and you don't havethat checks and balance, you
lose that mentorship and youlose the leadership.
And then that one person is Imean, if they're toxic and
(28:41):
they're saying all those otherpeople are toxic, then all those
young people are gonna be justas toxic as that one person
because they're gonna be just asimpressionable.
And it's sad because then youlook back and you're just like,
wow, I saw what those guys werebefore, and now I see who they
are now, and you're like, youare a product of the environment
(29:04):
now, and it's sad.
SPEAKER_02 (29:05):
It is extremely sad, and I think that what I'm gonna
do here is end the first episodeof our two-part series right
now, and move on uh time-wise touh just saying thank you for
now, and we'll see you onepisode uh 226.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(29:46):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development and
Action, where strength meansstrategy and courage to help you
move forward.
Each week, your host, SteveBasel, a therapist with over two
decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth, and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions, and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress management,and emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve Bisson.
SPEAKER_02 (00:41):
You know, you've heard me talk about this before.
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(01:03):
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Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 225.
If you haven't listened toepisode 224 yet, it was Jonathan
(01:26):
Kemp.
We talked about great stuff,especially with first
responders, coaching, uh, and Ihope you go listen to that.
But with episode 225, I havesomeone that I've known for a
while, uh, Renee Mansfield.
She's sitting right next to me.
This is our first time in thestudio, so if I look nervous, I
am.
And I'm gonna stop looking atthe camera because that makes it
even more weird because I wantto look at my guests.
(01:47):
So, Renee, welcome to ResilienceDevelopment in Action.
SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
Thank you.
Hello.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
Well, it's good to have you here and be my first
guest in this environment.
Uh, we're both a little fish outof water here, uh, but I really
appreciate you coming on.
I know we we had a little bit oftrouble getting recorded at the
beginning of uh August, I wantto say.
SPEAKER_01 (02:07):
Yes, yeah.
I'm actually glad that it gotcanceled because this is really
as much as it's kind of weirdbeing on the cameras, it is kind
of nice being the first one.
It's nice.
SPEAKER_02 (02:17):
Well, I'm happy that you're the first one because
I've known you for a while.
I think the work you do isexceptional.
The stuff that you're gonna bedoing, and you know, right
before the pre-interview, so tospeak, we were talking about
stuff that we might want to dotogether uh because you didn't
know a little bit about my shit.
So uh, but anyway, uh I knowyou, but I think that you know
(02:37):
the audience of resiliencedevelopment in action want to
know who you are.
So how about you say a littlebit about yourself?
SPEAKER_01 (02:43):
Right.
So I am um so weird, I don'tknow to look at the cameras.
I'm gonna look at you.
SPEAKER_02 (02:48):
Yeah, I defaulted, I'm looking at you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:51):
Um yeah, so I am a former firefighter paramedic
that has turned to a burnoutrecovery and um nervous system
regulation coach.
And so now I develop programsfor police and fire departments
to help wellness andleadership-driven kind of
(03:11):
retention strategies.
And um then I also do one-on-onecoaching with individuals, first
responders, and high performersto help with their burnout
recovery and also teaching themhow to regulate their nervous
system as well.
And then on the side, I alsoperform and do music um with a
band.
Well, call it a band, but myboyfriend and I.
(03:32):
Um we do musician stuff as wellas a side hustle.
So it's a little bit of me in anutshell.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
Well, you know, I I I knew all that stuff, and uh,
if you weren't gonna mention theband, I certainly was.
Yeah.
Um and I know you have a lot ofexperience as a firefighter, and
you know, part of resiliencedevelopment in action is
definitely talking about firstresponders in particular.
But you know, you're like, oh,gee Willeker, Steve, I want to
be on your podcast.
What made you decide to come onto the podcast?
SPEAKER_01 (04:02):
Well, really, I know that we've had a lot of these
conversations about changing theculture of first responder, um,
you know, police, fire, EMS, andall of that nature.
Uh, but I really wanted to comeon the podcast because I do
listen to all the differentpeople that you've spoken to,
and um, I wanted to kind of Iwant to talk a little bit about
(04:25):
my program and how it kind ofpertains to that, and um just
have a great conversation withyou about how you know really
resilience with the firstresponder culture in the world,
and um yeah, just kind of talkabout really how important it is
to address the nature of our jobin really between, I guess
(04:49):
bridging the gap between thetoxicity of leadership and
burnout, because a lot of thetimes we address burnout in the
first responder culture astrauma, and while that does play
a role in it with the calls,it's not necessarily, I know
(05:10):
we've talked about this, it'snot necessarily the you know,
the the peak of it, right?
And um leadership betrayal,department betrayal, it kind of
serves a higher purpose, and atleast for me, that was my
biggest um driving force when itcame to leaving the fire
department and my own burnoutand uh experience.
(05:33):
And so I guess that's what hadled me to not only leave the
fire department, but to kind ofcome back, which I never
expected, and develop thisprogram to help change the
culture from the inside out.
And um so I guess it's kind ofwhat I wanted to talk about and
address is that it's more thanjust the trauma of the calls.
(05:53):
Uh, it's also the way that theleadership plays a role as well.
SPEAKER_02 (05:58):
I I agree with you.
I think that we've had theseconversations privately many,
many times.
People who've listened to mypodcast know I'm done with this
whole it's trauma, it's trauma,it's trauma.
Okay, I'm not saying it doesn'texist, but it certainly exists.
And I think that that's part ofour private conversations is
that, you know, sometimes it'show you're treated by
administration, sometimes it'sabout how you're treated by your
(06:19):
colleagues.
And again, sorry if I'm toocontroversial, but being a woman
in this in the servicesometimes, and this is not a
criticism of anyone you've everworked with, but sometimes being
a woman in this field doublesdown on how difficult it can be
for a woman versus a man.
So I think that there's so manythings we can go down like
different roads here.
But I guess that for me, theleadership stuff really stands
(06:41):
out because that's definitelywhat we want to talk about.
One of my favorite sayings isfrom my uh friend Jay Ball, who
says you don't need stripes tobe a leader.
But unfortunately, the leadersmake the hard decisions and not
necessarily caring about whatthey originally signed up for
when they were firefighters,which was, you know, respect
people, be and I don't know all,and again, I pretend I'm a
(07:03):
therapist, I don't pretend Iknow what your models and all
that stuff is.
But I wonder if you want to talka little bit about, you know,
how the culture was where you'reat, particularly with you know
your colleagues and everythingelse that goes with that.
SPEAKER_01 (07:17):
Right.
I think that I have a couple ofdifferent experiences too,
because I was at two differentdepartments, two vastly
different departments, too, Iwould say, at that.
And um, then also adding in theEMS aspect with that too.
So, in total, I was in the fireEMS world in about a decade.
With that said, I saw adepartment that was larger, and
(07:41):
um, you know, I wasn't the onlyfemale.
In fact, that department was oneof the first departments that
did have uh one of the firstfemales back in the day, and uh
they were a driving force inthat, and I never had a bad
experience with as being afemale, um, but that was a
totally different experiencewhen it came to the union versus
(08:02):
the chief.
So that had a totally differentfeel when it came to that.
Um, it was almost like thepissing match.
And um sometimes I look back andI I do I say I regret leaving,
but some I don't at the sametime because it did lead me to
the path that I am in now.
Um but at the same time it feltmore like a firehouse in the way
(08:27):
that it was run, right?
That first department I was in.
And um, the main reason that Idid leave was um just it was
starting to get the same thing,politics over people.
Uh and it was really just likeit became a pissing match
between the union and the chiefand the town administrator.
So at that point there was aweak chief, so it was just
(08:50):
really it was the union againstthe town administrator in this
leckman.
So I was one of the first lastones that was hired, so I would
have been one of the first onesto go had something ever
changed.
So I kind of was putting feelersout there to change and
laterally transfer.
And um, just to give you a feelof how the politics over people
(09:13):
was going on, um, the chiefwouldn't sign off for me to
laterally transfer.
So I actually, when I did end updeciding to transfer in the
rose-colored glasses that I hadfor the department I ended up
transferring to, that we canobviously get into, um that
chief didn't sign for me totransfer.
(09:33):
So therefore, I actually had tocompletely start over with the
other department.
So I had to do the PATcompletely over, I had to do the
psychology test all over, I hadto do everything from scratch,
even though I had like six yearsunder my belt.
And um it I was I had the otherchief not um completely allowed
(09:55):
me to do like a full step ladderof where I was, I could have
started completely as like arookie.
Um, so it could have completelyscrewed me up.
So um it's interesting how itall happened, but um so yeah,
again, the chief that Itransferred to, that's how it
started, right?
(10:15):
So he made it sound like thisgrandioso thing, I'm doing this
favor for you.
And that's I was like, oh, thisis great.
With that said, transferringinto a department where I was
the first and only female.
And um, my captain, Ispecifically remember that was
from the old department, said,if there's ever anyone that's
gonna be transferring over intoa department that's the first
(10:38):
and only female, um, you aregonna be a great example of
that.
And I felt like that was like,oh well, thank you for that.
Because I felt like I was one ofthe guys, you know, like I was
at the point, I was like makingthe guys blush, you know, like I
was definitely crude, you know,like I had no shame, you know.
(10:58):
Like I was definitely fit rightin when it came to the jokes,
and um it it didn't seem anydifferent.
But it's interesting becausewhen I left or as I was leaving,
um the dynamics changed, youknow, because I was still doing
half and half.
I was finishing out my few 24sthat I had at that last
(11:21):
department, and then I was stilldoing the transfers over into
like the four weeks of traininginto the new department, and um
the guys from the old departmentstarted treating me so weird,
and it really wasn't until Istarted I met this um woman not
too long ago.
She's was uh she's a retired umCoast Guard, and now she does uh
(11:43):
she's a therapist, and she'skind of doing similar things
that I'm kind of doing.
But um she said something abouthow uh it's easier for people to
leave like angry than it is toleave on good terms for some
reason, like the psychology ofit.
SPEAKER_02 (12:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:04):
And uh I guess you would be the expert in that.
SPEAKER_02 (12:07):
I'm the expert of nothing, but okay.
SPEAKER_01 (12:09):
And I was like, that is so interesting because when I
left the dynamics did leave ordid change.
So it was like they became soaggressive and angry when I was
leaving, and it was so strange.
SPEAKER_02 (12:25):
Well, I could I could tell you a little bit
about the psychology, and I wantto get back to a few things you
said, because there's one thingthat you mentioned that was
really sounded like we need todig a little more.
But um, the reason why peoplewant to be in adversarial ways
when you cut out is that thatgives you a reason to.
And when you leave it in anamicable way, but you may never
(12:45):
talk to them again, whichhappens more often than we we
want to believe, we tend to omitthat information.
We only remember, well, you knowwhat, Renee was kind of a bitch
or whatever, because that'seasier for me to justify that
you're gone than it is for me tosay, you know how sweet she was
or how great she was or she mademe blush or whatever.
That's difficult to say, well, Idon't have any contact with her
(13:07):
anymore.
So that's the psychology behindthat.
And the lateral transfers, maleor female, that happens all the
time, from what my guys and mygals tell me.
And it's just weird to mebecause even when I complete
therapy with some of my clients,some of my clients look for a
fight in the last session.
I'm like, why are we fighting?
Why do we have to fight?
We can leave in good terms.
There's nothing wrong with that.
(13:27):
Right.
Um, and it's changed over timeafter we've had conversations.
But one of the things we talkedabout is a real firehouse,
which, you know, is somethingthat I hear a lot and I know
what that means.
But I think that I would love tohear your perspective on that
and what that means because Ithink that there's um I I always
say to different people who askme about the greatest, who's the
(13:50):
good chief?
Who's a good leader?
I said, people who rememberwhere it was to be boots on the
ground.
Those are guys.
Koch Guard, you talked aboutyour your colleague there.
Um boots on the ground is soimportant, remembering where
you've been, you know.
And I think that that to me isalways a good sign of
leadership.
But you're talking about a goodfirehouse.
Is that part of what you'retalking about?
SPEAKER_01 (14:12):
Yeah, because I would say when I see it felt
more like a real firehouse, I sosomething that I kind of
backtracking a little bit.
I've had these conversations alittle bit, and then I kind of
had noticed it.
Someone else has mentioned it.
I've gotten a little bit moreinto LinkedIn a little bit, and
(14:32):
I feel like I've had some reallygreat conversations in that.
And I feel like people alsoshare a little bit.
I know my ADDHD is going alittle bit.
I'm coming full circle, Ipromise.
That's okay.
We'll come back to thefirehouse.
It's okay.
No, it's coming back around.
But someone also sharedsomething.
It makes me not feel as crazywhen I feel like I say that when
EMS came into the fire station,I feel like it's when maybe the
(14:56):
firehouse started to crumble alittle bit.
Okay.
Um, I feel like it's a couple ofreasons, mostly because it has
to be a little bit moreprofit-driven.
Um obviously EMS has to makemoney somehow because it has to
bank its funds back as it spendsa lot more money.
Um at the same time, bringing itfull circle.
(15:19):
So feeling like more of afirehouse, I feel like I'm
alluding to the fact that it hadmore mentorship, right?
More leadership.
While it had its problems,obviously, um, with its
leadership and some toxic,ego-driven mentality.
Um, I look back and there was alot of senior guys.
(15:42):
And when you're talking aboutthe badge and the ranks, I feel
like you don't need a badge or arank, obviously, to be a leader.
There was a lot of senior guysthat I remember that took me
under my under their wing,right?
I can think of like when on thatdepartment, you get my I got put
on the ladder truck.
So I was the third guy in theladder truck when I wasn't on
(16:02):
the ambulance.
And um the ladder guy that wasalways the ladder driver, um, I
just specifically rememberedthere's so many times.
So one of the things in thatdepartment is that you for the
first year you weren't reallysupposed to be upstairs unless
um there was a reason, right?
(16:24):
Um mostly because you just hadso much to learn.
You're the first year, you know,like you should be downstairs if
you're not on a call, goingthrough all the trucks.
You know, you have so much to begoing through.
And you shouldn't be upstairswatching TV if you're on if
you're not on calls.
Um you should want to learn moreif you are, you know, not
(16:47):
running calls or doing reports.
Um, you know, you're just aproby.
And so um, yeah, I justspecifically remember he would
come down, and there was one daywhere I was down on the
apparatus bay, and he's like,Hey, do you want to go through
the ladder truck?
And I was like, absolutely.
So he just started pullingthings off the ladder.
You know, he didn't have abadge.
He didn't even, I don't even heto even to this day, he doesn't
(17:09):
have like a badge or a rank, youknow.
And he like, I just specificallyremember him going around the
truck and always doing that withme.
And uh it's something I tookwith me throughout the rest of
my career, even on the laddertruck in the next department.
So um he was the senior guy tome.
You know, there was a few seniorguys, and I just remember that
(17:30):
that's what makes a really greatdepartment is leadership and
mentorship, and I think thatthat's what a lot of departments
have lost.
And so when I went to the otherdepartment, um, we were a very
young department, and I was soldthis progressive idea, which
what I meant by thoserose-colored glasses, it sounded
(17:52):
great, right?
And I was a fairly into myparamedic career at that point.
Um, so I was like, this isawesome.
I want to be a progressiveparamedic, and I want to be a
progressive firefighter as well.
Right.
But um at the same time, I lovedthe idea of progressive EMS, and
(18:13):
um, it seemed like that's whatwas going to be happening.
And um, it seemed like that'swhat was gonna be happening in
general, progressivementalities, and uh it was soul
as the idea, but not knowingthat this particular chief was
gonna be driving out the oldergeneration, knowing now because
(18:36):
they knew him, and I don't thinkhe liked that, you know.
So I liked having the oldergeneration because I think they
have a lot of value, they have alot of wisdom.
And when they started becoming,you know, upset and disgruntled,
he didn't like that they werearound and they could retire,
(18:57):
you know, so they either had toshit or get off the pot, you
know, fall in line with him orretire early.
SPEAKER_02 (19:04):
And so um pretty problematic language when you
say fall in line, just for therecord.
But please go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (19:10):
So uh many of them ended up just retiring early.
And um, so that was a huge issuebecause then a lot of them that
were, you know, were very young,like I said, anywhere under
thirty forty years old.
And um, that's problematic whenyou're in a fire department.
You know, you think that youhave all of this knowledge, you
(19:32):
don't.
And like, and then also when Igot transferred over, there was
guys that had less thanexperience than I had, and um
which is crazy to think aboutthat they were then going to be
lieutenants and captains, and Ididn't have seniority because I
was transferred over, you know,like and not signed off, right?
(19:53):
So it was like this is bonkers,and I shouldn't even have
seniority, right?
You know, so like I I wasn'teven saying it because I thought
I should have rank, you know.
I don't think anyone should haverank at this point.
Like, we're all like five yearsin, you know, five to eight, you
know, eights, whatever that youwere building up, but at that
(20:15):
point some guys had three, andit was just like it was just
getting crazy.
So when I say that the otherdepartment felt like it was more
of a firehouse, we sat down fordinners, we had a guy that
cooked.
Um we just valued things thatstill valued the firehouse, you
(20:36):
know.
We still sat around and atetogether.
Uh the probies still took thetrash out.
Right.
You know, we still um I stillhad to get afternoon coffees,
morning coffees, morninglunches.
Like I got stiffed so many timeswith money because like I would
still have to go out, pick upthe lunches, you know, like and
(20:58):
all that stuff.
But it's like it is what it is.
You know, I paid my dues.
SPEAKER_02 (21:02):
I should have bought you a coffee just for that.
SPEAKER_01 (21:05):
No, I had a system going, man.
Like I had I someone, the guybefore me, he's like download
the dunks app, and we had thedunks right across the street.
Like, so like literally we'regonna be.
SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
Which Firehouse doesn't, by the way.
SPEAKER_01 (21:16):
Right, exactly.
I I swear that they put dunksright next to the police and
fire stations.
But I downloaded the dunks appand I just raked up points.
And so like I I always got freedrinks because like I just paid
through my dunks app, and thenyou know it was great.
SPEAKER_02 (21:32):
Well, that's a good system to have.
SPEAKER_01 (21:33):
Oh, absolutely.
SPEAKER_02 (21:34):
Um and you know, Milford has to work on putting a
dunks right across from the firestation here.
Uh Milford Mass, for those whoare listening nationally and
internationally.
But there's a lot of stuff thatyou mentioned, and I don't even
know where to go because I Ithink that you you brought up
something that comes upconstantly in my group is that
the experience level.
(21:55):
And what I mean by that is, youknow, you got someone who's
still wet behind the ear, whohas an LT or a captain or
whatever, and doesn't knowbecause they have education, but
there's no one else to replacethem, because the old
generation's going away.
I mean, like in the next fiveyears, most of the quote, older
generation, people my age, I'mnot a firefighter.
(22:15):
I do not pretend I am.
But I think that at the end ofthe day, we're losing a lot of
that.
And then we have a lot of youngpeople, but not a whole lot in
between.
And I think that scares a wholelot of departments, particularly
firefighters retiring, and eventhe young guys who come to see
me, they're like, we don't haverelief.
We're we're we're like, we'rewe're not ready for this.
And of course, you're full ofpiss and vinegar, because hey,
(22:37):
who doesn't know everything whenuh they're 25 and 30?
And then you turn 30 and you go,My God, I knew nothing.
And then by the time you're 40,you're like, I really know
nothing about life.
Um I think that that there's alot of stuff to be said about
that, and having leadership thatchooses a younger generation, in
my view, like having those BLTsand captains and all that, it's
(23:00):
a great way to have morecontrol.
But that's my two cents.
SPEAKER_01 (23:03):
Right.
SPEAKER_02 (23:04):
You want it, you seem to be go jump in, I want to
hear it.
SPEAKER_01 (23:07):
Well, no, I just think that it's especially now
knowing, just veryimpressionable, right?
Like I saw a strong unionagainst a weak chief, and I saw
in the previous department howhow much they fought against
that chief.
And while I know, you know, itdid become a pissing match, but
(23:27):
still I appreciated the factthat they would fight for us no
matter what.
It was always the guys, likeguys and girls, whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (23:35):
I don't give a but it but okay, so just for the
record, for those of you whodon't know, guys also includes
the women in departments, and noone's ever offended by that
shit.
So if you're ever offended bythat, write to me, write to
Monet.
But ultimately, I've never heardany of my female clients go, oh,
I'm not one of the guys.
They're okay with thatstatement.
Please go ahead.
Sorry.
That's my little politicalstatement for the day.
(23:57):
Have a great day.
Anyway, keep on going.
SPEAKER_01 (23:59):
Right.
So um, yeah, they would justalways fight for you never
questioned that, right?
So um it was just a differentstory with the other department.
And um one thing that wasgetting really frustrating with
the other department is when thee board being so impressionable,
(24:21):
um, especially towards the endof my career before I left, was
that they were starting to getsomething was becoming a little
off, right?
So the three um our three-yearcontract was coming up, and it
was just they were saying thatthe chief was offering these
(24:41):
things, just um nothing wasgonna be written, it was all
spoken promises.
I knew from our the previousdepartment, you never do
anything based off of spokenpromises because it never pans
out, it's always a tactic.
And old got old timers, theyknow that.
(25:01):
Old timers know that spokenpromises are broken promises,
right?
So you never base off of acontract with that.
And so I remember specificallyat a union meeting, which mind
you, okay, get this.
They put into our union contractfor our union dues to pay for
(25:22):
beers at the American Legion topay for our beers while we were
drinking during our unionmeetings, which what right?
Only 30-year-olds would do that,right?
Like, yeah, so get drunk afterthe union meetings.
We would do that after our othertoo.
But not to be.
Sorry to break the veil, but uh,you know, and that's another
(25:44):
issue, right?
We do that as a coping mechanismthat as firefighter, anyone in
the first responder realm,that's a whole different issue.
But putting that into our unioncontract, that like our union
dues are paying for our beerswhile we're drinking, during our
union meetings, making hugedecisions for our contract, and
(26:07):
now you're being blindsided bythe strong chief that's
promising you these things,saying that you're gonna get a
3-1-1, like 3%, 1%, 1%, and thenit turns into like a 4-1-0.
You know, it was just like, andthen they're taking away a lot
of stipends and then promisingafter that.
(26:28):
And I'm just like, you you don'tunderstand what you're about to
give away because you're nevergonna give it back.
And they're like, he's promisingX, Y, and Z.
And then after that, all ofthese people are then promoted.
I was like, all right.
Yeah, this is what happened.
(26:49):
This is this is the impression.
Impression and impressionable,right?
SPEAKER_02 (26:55):
Exactly, the impressionable, and I think that
that's why like part of theexperience is to learn to sit
there for five years and watchit.
And I say five years, I thinkfor any job, you know nothing
for five years.
You may think you knoweverything, but then you have
something like that.
Like, why drink beers?
I I don't understand that.
I understand after.
Frankly, I understand prior, uh,but I don't understand during.
(27:18):
Um, and it's not endorsing that,it's just noting the behavior.
Um I think that the other parttoo that you mentioned is that
there's a lot of shift inmentorship.
And I think that for me, one ofthe greatest things that I do as
a therapist to other therapistsis try to mentor them.
And a lot of people would say tome, Well, um, how much are you
(27:38):
how much do you want?
And usually I say, get me acoffee or go for breakfast or
whatever.
But I feel like the fired policeused to have that mentorship
type of environment that hasslowly gone away, not only
because we're losing the peoplewith a lot of experience, but
we're also losing a lot ofpeople who are willing to do
that.
Uh, you talked about that.
And you know, if you had a goodmentorship, you have someone
(28:00):
from the e board who's beenthere for a few years going,
This is wrong, guys, we can't dothat.
But I think it's missing, and Ithink mentorship is key, I
think, to the fire service,police service.
I think that it goes for a wholelot of different things.
Uh, but I think the mentorshipis clearly something that has
shifted in that environment, ifyou ask me.
SPEAKER_01 (28:18):
Right.
And that's what happens when youlose that mentorship, is that it
becomes toxic because if youhave one person that's driving
the force and you don't havethat checks and balance, you
lose that mentorship and youlose the leadership.
And then that one person is Imean, if they're toxic and
(28:41):
they're saying all those otherpeople are toxic, then all those
young people are gonna be justas toxic as that one person
because they're gonna be just asimpressionable.
And it's sad because then youlook back and you're just like,
wow, I saw what those guys werebefore, and now I see who they
are now, and you're like, youare a product of the environment
(29:04):
now, and it's sad.
SPEAKER_02 (29:05):
It is extremely sad, and I think that what I'm gonna
do here is end the first episodeof our two-part series right
now, and move on uh time-wise touh just saying thank you for
now, and we'll see you onepisode uh 226.
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(29:46):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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