October 29, 2025 • 50 mins
Some conversations ask you to sit up a little straighter. This one asks you to relax your shoulders, tell the truth, and feel what you’ve been carrying. We dive into the messy overlap of trauma and grief in first responder and military cultures, where silence is rewarded and honesty is too often punished, and we share a different path built on authenticity, peer support, and practical skills.
Blythe Landry joins us to map the line between privacy and secrecy, and why crossing it keeps people sick. We talk about ethical self-disclosure—when a helper shares only to serve the client—and how human presence beats formal scripts and stiff suits for building trust. You’ll hear why fit-for-duty vibes can re-trigger rank-based fear, why plain language matters, and how showing up as a person first invites others to do the same. We also confront the system costs of looking away: moved abusers, muted reports, moral injury, and the downstream mix of suicide risk, substance use, gambling, overwork, and other behavioral addictions that masquerade as coping.
Grief work sits at the center. Acute grief isn’t a two-week arc; it softens when people gain tools, witness, and meaning. We break down how trauma shapes worldview and therefore grief, and why evidence-based skills plus an honest community can turn pain into purpose without sugarcoating the loss. Blythe shares a trauma-informed grief coaching track designed for grievers and peer supporters—exactly the kind of culture-fit training that spreads healing inside agencies that need it most.
If you serve, love someone who serves, or lead a team where the unspoken rule is “suck it up,” this conversation offers a better rule: say what’s true, get support, and refuse secrecy. Subscribe, share this with a teammate, and leave a review with one insight you’ll bring back to your crew. Your words might be the reason someone reaches out.
Reach Blythe through her website at https://www.blythelandry.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Welcome to Resilience Development in
Action, where strength meetsstrategy and courage to help you
move forward.
Each week, your host, SteveBisolk, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth, and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions, and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress management,and emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve B.
SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
Sol.ai.
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(02:08):
Well, hi everyone.
Welcome to episode 228.
If you haven't listened toepisode 227, it was with Amanda
Rizzoli.
We talked about mental health inuh Milford, Massachusetts, with
working with the police.
We talked also about being aspouse of a law enforcement
officer and the effects on that.
So go back and listen to that.
But today is a returning guest.
But to me, it's not a returningguest, it's a returning friend.
(02:30):
I've worked with Blythe at acompany for a couple of years,
and she is one of the few peopleI stayed in touch with.
And we've worked on projectstogether, we've exchanged
clients at times.
Uh, but just a wonderful humanbeing.
And look, I can even say I haveher book, and it's great.
unknown (02:51):
It's mine.
SPEAKER_02 (02:52):
It is.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
Well, welcome Blight Landry to Resilience Development
in Action.
Sorry, old habits die hard.
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Oh, yeah, I get it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
And for those of you who may, you know, hopefully
this sounds really good.
It sounds like I hear her fine,she hears me fine, but my
microphone decided not to worktoday.
So hey, we're just flying by theseat of our pants.
But that's kind of what we'vealways done.
Me and her, we one of the thingsI want to tribute to her, and
this is the truth.
I have a lot of trust in Blythe.
(03:22):
I've worked with her for a longtime.
And she sends me referrals orshe says, Hey, I need this.
We don't need to say thank you.
We don't need to kiss up, askfor stuff that we don't need.
We just jump to what needs to bedone.
And yeah, once in a while wecatch up on our lives.
But ultimately, it's a show ofrespect, not that we're all
business, but that there's atime for both.
And there's not like, well, youweren't nice about this.
(03:44):
There's none of that crap.
And I really admire Blight forthat as a friend, uh, as a
colleague, but someone as ahuman being, I just truly love
you.
And I want to start off bysaying that.
SPEAKER_02 (03:54):
I feel the same way, Steve.
I think you're amazing.
We've always had a good and awonderful connection right from
the beginning.
SPEAKER_01 (03:59):
I mean, we're not going to talk about the company
itself.
I try not to promote things Idon't believe in.
But I do remember one thing isthat something whacked was, and
I'm not going to say what itwas.
And it was in Slack, I believe.
You wrote to me privately, like,do you think this makes any
sense?
And then we exchanged.
I think that's how we reallystarted to connect because we
(04:21):
were kind of like, as aprofessional, this is wrong.
And the reason why I don't sayword names, because I don't want
to be called slandering anycompany, but the truth is that
we got along 99% of the time.
So uh, but again, I'm describingyou from my point of view, which
is probably more friendly.
But uh, how about you introduceyourself again?
(04:41):
I know you've introducedyourself on episode, I want to
say 41, right?
But you know, 228 episodes now,so almost 200 down the road.
SPEAKER_02 (04:50):
Maybe people can I admire your uh your consistency,
Steve.
It's a beautiful thing.
And I know this podcast ishelping a lot of people.
Um, and every time you putyourself out there, you bring
someone in who can help yourcommunity.
And I love it.
So so yeah, I'm Blythe,obviously.
I'm a therapist and coach uhlike Steve.
I specialize in trauma andgrief.
(05:12):
And I've been doing this workfor 25 years.
I'm almost 51.
And it's amazing the things thatyou learn um just in doing
something for a long time,right?
And one of the things you learnis you always have more to
learn.
So I'm always learning, I'malways working on myself.
I always end up in my owntherapy, my own coaching.
And my business and my practicehas had so many iterations
(05:32):
through the years, right?
So, as Steve shared, I have abook out on trauma.
It's called Trauma Intelligence,the Art of Helping in a World
Filled with Pain.
I also um run and have a teamthat helps me run an amazing
team, um, a grief coaching, atrauma-informed grief coaching
certification program.
And it's specifically forgrievers, many, many, many of
(05:53):
whom have gone through verytraumatic loss.
So that's my current project anddone work with the Coast Guard,
right?
With Steve and I did a projecttogether with my strong
guardians through the CoastGuard for trauma stuff, and um
also done tons of trainings fororganizations, nonprofits, a
Fortune 5 company, the USLouisiana Department of Health
(06:14):
on trauma and and how thatimpacts us and secondary trauma
and how that impacts us, right?
So I love my job.
I don't ever want to retire.
It's my favorite thing aboutmyself, you know, it's a thing
that I know that I'mconsistently good at.
And that's something that bringsme great pride and humility and
um gratitude.
(06:35):
So that's where I'm coming from.
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
Well, that's probably why we get along for so
many other reasons.
Like, yeah, we're both I I justturned 50 a couple months ago.
I've been doing this for 26years, more years than I have
not done it.
And that's right.
What I love about what youtalked about is exactly what I
feel most people, and again,there's no knock on anyone, but
(06:59):
in our field, and we'll get backto the first responder stuff and
the military stuff, veryimportant stuff.
But what I find that people makea mistake is here's my niche,
and I'll never move from it.
And I started as a child andfamily specialists.
And, you know, I hear you're youtalked about your career and
where you've been.
That's exactly it, is that wejust keep on evolving and
(07:21):
changing stuff because that'swhat we need to do.
And that's why, like, you know,like you, I've worked with
people in the Fortune 500companies and I've worked in
going to the homeless sheltersand homeless, like I we call it
the weeds around here, but Iwent to the weeds and talked to
people and everywhere inbetween.
And learning to be able to adaptto what is needed is so
(07:44):
important.
But then when you find yourpassion, you make that the main
part, but not singularly thepart.
SPEAKER_02 (07:49):
Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Yeah, we're definitely alignedon that.
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
And I just had therapy, so I'm feeling really
good.
I have my therapy right beforethis uh recording.
So uh thanks, Joe.
Uh, I know he doesn't listen,but makes me feel good to say
thank you.
But no, I think that that's whatyou know, it's important to talk
about a lot of the stuff.
You know, one of the things Iwant to mention on this podcast,
because I think it's gonnamilitary stuff is important to
(08:14):
me too.
I really enjoyed working withyou on the Mind Strong Guardians
and Justin and our whole team.
And because there are people whowere there who had lived
experience, I'm not in libertyto discuss their names.
That's not my job.
Um, that's for them if they wantto talk about it.
But we had, you know, livedexperience, people who've been
through trauma, sexual assault,particularly in the Coast Guard.
(08:37):
And we were doing fantasticwork.
And one one of the things that Iloved is that I was typically
the only male in the room, and Iwas one of the leaders with
Blight.
And I would always ask Blaine,I'm like, I'm the dude, and
these are all women who havebeen unfortunately have had some
sexual trauma of some sort.
And you would be like, Yeah,you're a trustworthy person.
(09:00):
I don't know where you come fromthat, but I'm like, you always
encourage me to be myself, andthe more I was myself, the more
people were comfortable with me.
So I remember that too.
Do you think that when peopleare talking about hard stuff,
whether it's trauma, grief, theauthenticity of the therapist is
as important as the authenticityof the client?
SPEAKER_02 (09:20):
As much even more, right?
Because if I'm authentic, Iinvite the other person to be
authentic, right?
I think that's where so many ofus miss the boat and we're not
trained properly as clinicianson this, is that being present
in that relationship, thatwhether it's an educational
relationship, whether it's atherapeutic, whether it's a
coaching relationship, is socrucial because otherwise I'm
(09:42):
just a warm body sitting acrossfrom someone that has no skin in
the game.
And I've always, always feltlike if my client is going to
come and be that vulnerable andtell me things that nobody else
in their life knows about them,how dare I not be part of this
conversation?
Right?
It's it's not fair.
And so while I don't thinkobviously I should be disclosing
(10:05):
everything about myself all thetime, there are times when
disclosure where relatability,where saying, hey, it's okay,
you're not alone, are crucial tohelping another person.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:17):
I I can't remember what the exact wording was, but
um I'll I'll put it the best wayI can.
Appropriate disclosure is soimportant, you know,
particularly working with themilitary, the first respondent.
And frankly, like when I workwith women with trauma, I gotta
be as authentic as I can becausethey can a read a fucking fake a
mile away.
SPEAKER_02 (10:38):
Yep.
unknown (10:38):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
More importantly, they're like, oh, I can trust
this person, which is soimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Um, you know, and I think that that's the disclosure
you're talking about.
We're not here to this, I'm notI'm not here to put down what we
learn as education, but for me,I go back to more of a Buddhist
practice is that there's adifference between privacy and
secrecy.
Um that's not for you.
And when I talk to my therapist,sometimes I'll talk about it,
(11:04):
but that's my privacy, that's mything I gotta work on.
But then when you go intosecrecy, like, oh, what's your
experience with blank, or whatwhy are we being secret about
that?
When people ask me, Do you havetwo kids?
Well, they can Google it,they'll know I have two kids.
I I don't believe in keepingsecrets from my clients, and I
think that that's really whatencourages people.
Can you talk a little more aboutthat being like disclose
(11:26):
appropriate self-disclosurewhile also being not and secrecy
and privacy?
SPEAKER_02 (11:31):
Yeah, well, I think there's a beautiful distinction
between secrecy and privacy, andthat's true of all our
relationships, right?
I think the litmus test that Iuse is am I sharing this to make
it about me, or am I sharingthis so that they feel connected
and less alone?
And if the answer every time isI'm sharing this so that they
feel connected, supported, seen,and not alone, then I'm always
(11:53):
on the right side of it, right?
Um obviously it should never beabout me getting my needs met,
but it should always be aboutbeing authentic so that that
person can get their needs met.
Sometimes I find myself feelingthis strong intuition with
certain clients to tell themsomething I've never told a
client before, right?
That again tells me that that'san indicator that this is about
(12:18):
them needing to hear this inthis moment.
And that also, that intuition, Ithink, comes from being
authentic.
It comes from caring, it comesfrom not being just a brick
wall, right?
It comes from not justdisclosure, but authentically
being attached to someone in away that you want them to be
attached to you in the serviceof helping them heal.
SPEAKER_01 (12:40):
The best compliment I ever got, and I'm sure this
has happened to you, is that ohmy God, I feel like I can talk
to you.
You're not putting on a face,you're not.
We don't show up like again.
This is how I dress today forwork, and I'm gonna see clients
that way.
It's not unprofessional and notlike, you know, whatever bad
message I can have on my shirt,but it's so informal that people
(13:02):
are like, oh, you're informal, Ican talk to you.
I I think that plays a hugefactor, but particularly, I
think about my first respondersand the military personnel that
we've both worked with.
Can you talk a little more abouthow military personnel would
react if we were like if I wasin a suit and tie, for example,
or uh I was like, tell me howyou feel about that.
SPEAKER_02 (13:23):
Well, first of all, it could be very triggering,
right?
Activating because it can remindthem of their need to be formal,
their need to defer, right?
Especially depending on theirrank in the military.
And so that could actuallyre-trigger trauma because we
already know in many facets ofthe military, it is not safe to
have emotion.
(13:44):
It is not safe to be vulnerable,it is not safe to ask for help,
even, even though it's said thatit is.
There's all these underlying andobvious and also idiosyncratic
ways that that gets shovedaside.
And so I think that would bevery potentially off-putting to
someone, right?
And potentially make them feelreally unsafe and or like they
(14:06):
had to defer to you instead ofhaving equal connection to you.
Is that something that youyou've experienced or heard
about, Steve?
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
100%.
What I didn't I didn't thinkabout that part.
I never put it in words, so Iappreciate it.
One of the guys once told me islike when I went for my fit for
duty, it was a guy in a suit andtie who was evaluating me.
When I was sitting with you, Ifeel like you know, I'm talking
to a friend, a paid friend, butnonetheless a friend, because
you're more informal and you'reable to connect with me.
(14:35):
So when I say something, you cansay it's messed up or whatever.
And I think that, you know, whenI uh you know, one of the
constant message on my podcastsfor resilience development and
action is that you gotta knowwhich culture you're working
with, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (14:48):
Yes, and you have to meet them where they are, right?
SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
And I talk about a lot about the first responder
culture.
SPEAKER_02 (14:54):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (14:55):
But the military culture is its own freaking
animal, if you ask me.
SPEAKER_02 (15:00):
Oh, for sure.
Yeah, I mean, it's its ownculture.
It's this secret world ofthings, right?
Look what's on the news today.
I mean, it's a disaster, but thereality of it is like it's this
whole secret world where peoplehave different stated and
unstated expectations, right?
And as you and I saw fromMindstrong, and we're working on
(15:24):
the sexual trauma and theoperational trauma in the Coast
Guard, that there's still suchuh stigma to even things that
are helpful, right?
Those things get taken away,they get removed, they get
shoved under the rug.
You almost get like mildlypenalized or punitive language
when you're trying to bring thelight out of the darkness.
(15:47):
And I think it's it's sort oflike this very interesting
family dynamic that happens whenkids are molested in homes,
right?
Where the family does everythingthey can to keep it a secret and
the non-abusive spouse pretendslike nothing's happening.
This happens in the military.
It's like a it's like anotherfamilial experience where
(16:09):
everything bad that's going onis only moderately addressed,
and the damage is catastrophic.
SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
Right.
And go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (16:18):
They talk about collateral damage and war and
and those things.
What they don't talk about isthe emotional collateral damage
of not addressing the realisticand real things that are
happening for first respondersand military, both.
SPEAKER_01 (16:33):
I think that with the military, it's even worse
because with some departments ingeneral, I'm not saying there's
there's transparency, but thethere is some transparency, and
I say this very lightly.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Um yeah.
And different units, right?
Different parts of the countryare responding in different
ways, different policedepartments, different fire
departments, different, but youknow, before we got on, we were
talking about my friend JeffDill, and he started and runs uh
Firefighter Behavioral HealthAlliance.
And I he and I have been workingon a book for a long time.
(17:06):
It's gonna come out at somepoint, and it's doing the it's a
it's interviewing uh familymembers of people who lost their
first responder to suicide,right?
One of the things that he doesis he's since 2010 tracked
firefighter, uh paramedic andEMT suicides, right?
EMS suicides.
And let's just say this noteverybody likes what he's doing,
(17:28):
right?
And he has been blocked in somesituations for doing the right
thing, for actually bringingvoice to what's actually going
on.
He also does something reallyamazing.
He hosts a retreat every year uhfor those who have lost their
first responder to suicide.
And it's it's a beautiful,beautiful thing.
But yeah, I mean, let's just saynot everybody is smiling upon
(17:49):
what he's doing, which is justtelling the truth.
SPEAKER_01 (17:52):
And that's part of the secrecy we just talked about
earlier, is that you know, youtalk about the military.
I, you know, one of the storiesthat I I keep on plays back in
my head all the time.
There was an issue with aparticular person, and a few
women reported him.
He was moved to another unit.
He wasn't discharged.
(18:12):
He was, and why was he moved?
And then the other unit wasblind to what happened.
And that's the secrecy that getsreally in the way, in my
opinion.
And when you call it out, likeyou know, I feel like what we do
in general and what I do in myjob, you're not gonna be
popular.
But I've always thought, and I Ican't remember who said this,
(18:35):
but to be popular means you'renot necessarily telling the
truth.
SPEAKER_02 (18:39):
That and if everyone likes you, you probably have
zero integrity, right?
I always think it's we're sayingthe same thing in a different
way.
I always think like if everyonein the world likes me, then I am
standing for nothing.
Right.
And uh I think those of us whohave louder voices are you know,
those of us, those that love us,love us, and those that don't,
don't.
I don't want to be loved bysomeone who is okay with
(19:01):
colluding sexual trauma, right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
There's so many things I don't want in my life.
Yeah, it's hard to mean what thejob is is to find the good in
people and find the good in, youknow, what I like is I think
that me and you can have adisagreement, but it will never
be meant as disrespectful.
And we disagree, and then we'regonna move on.
I think unfortunately, the otherpart too that you find the
(19:23):
military in the first responderworld, and correct me if I'm
wrong, which causes trauma, isyou disagreed with one of your
superiors, then that's heldagainst you for several months
and several years later, becauseyou know, you can't have that
disagreement, and that causestrauma and that makes strife,
and then you have this judgmentabout you know, someone says,
Oh, don't talk to Blight, she'sgonna tell you the truth, and
(19:44):
she's she's gonna make up hertruth or whatever.
They play you down, but now youdon't know that that's what
happened, it's just because youwere ruffling feathers.
I think that plays a good in myopinion.
SPEAKER_02 (19:54):
But what do I agree?
I agree with you wholeheartedlyon that, Steve, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (19:58):
Yeah, I think I think that we be again, I don't
want to process our old company,but I think that that's why
sometimes people didn't like mein that company.
Because if something, you know,I I I say to my clients, if it
smells like a rose and lookslike a rose, I don't need to get
pricked to know it's a rose.
And if it smells like shit andlooks like shit, I don't need to
lick it to know it's shit.
SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
Tis true.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
And I think that that's what happens is when you
say the truth, people don't likeit.
And I'm okay with that.
SPEAKER_02 (20:25):
Yeah, I'm uh you and I are on the same page for sure.
For me, my I would rather be anadvocate than somebody who bends
other people's dishonesty.
SPEAKER_01 (20:38):
Yeah.
I'd rather you I'd rather youdespise me for half a second,
but respect that I told you thetruth than you want because I
was nice to you, but I didn'tmake any changes in your life or
changes in society or whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (20:51):
And I think that that goes a long way working
with first responder military,right?
Because the the ability to go tosomeone that's gonna say what's
true.
I always think a good uh litmustest for like being a supportive
trauma therapist or coach or orjust friend is always say what's
true.
Like that's catastrophic.
(21:11):
That's the worst thing thatcould have possibly happened.
It is horrific to be molested.
It is horrific to be uh sexuallyassaulted instead of
whitewashing language.
I think when someone feels likeyou're just saying the truth,
they can trust you.
And I think they can trust youif you're willing to sit in the
discomfort of saying what'strue, even if what's true is
(21:32):
really ugly.
SPEAKER_01 (21:33):
Let me throw a little wrinkle, and I'd love to
hear your point.
That's what I like about us isso you tell the truth and you're
punished for it.
So is it really worth saying thetruth?
SPEAKER_02 (21:47):
Yes.
Why?
Well, not for the victim, butfor the ally.
SPEAKER_01 (21:52):
Why?
Please explain.
SPEAKER_02 (21:54):
Um, because I think that people that are victims
need allies and advocates to notbe liked on their behalf.
I do think for the person thatis traumatized, there's not
always a huge payoff for tellingthe truth.
In fact, there's a negativerepercussion for it almost
always.
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
If I hear one more time, what was she wearing or
did she drink?
I'm gonna throw up.
SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
Uh yeah, it's disgusting.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
You know, and I don't care about that.
Consents, consents, consent.
And you're right.
I want to like I feel the sameway.
I think that one what I see.
You say advocate, I saytherapist, I say counselor, I
say peer support, whatever worksfor people, it doesn't matter
because I think with our mindfulguardianship, we were trying to
train people to be good peersupport people, and hopefully uh
(22:43):
that happened because you knowwe're no longer involved, and
hopefully they're stillsupporting each other.
But the bottom line is that Ithink some of our role, you
know, when we can have you knowtrauma intelligence, read my
book, read ever 1400 books.
If you don't know how toadvocate for your client that's
in front of you, and advocatedoesn't mean you go on the
street and go, you know, she gotraided by John Doe.
(23:07):
It's advocating so they feelstronger.
I think that that's the otherpart too, because I I that's why
I was asking about the ally, andI see us as allies as therapists
and people.
So when I tell people come totherapy, it's because you're
gonna add an ally on your side.
Who might be uncomfortable, butit will help you.
SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
But it's doing it because they care, right?
And hopefully that therapist isalso getting therapy for
themselves, like we do.
Which is a whole nother topic ofconversation.
But you know, I hope thatthere's more therapists out
there than are not that areactually taking their work so
seriously that they're gettinghelp for themselves so that they
can be their best selves fortheir clients, which their
(23:48):
clients deserve.
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
I think it's worth talking about, even though,
like, because I think that'simportant too.
I I remember, I'll be truthfulwhen I first started in this
field, being in therapy was asign of weakness, even for me.
SPEAKER_02 (24:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:01):
I didn't do it.
And I'll be again, fulldisclosure.
I don't think that's a secret.
I think that's good in talkingthat's not I need to open up
about that.
But eventually I saw the valueof that.
And I think that what happens isI remember I went back to a
conversation from my undergrad.
One of the teachers said to ourgroup, like, okay, how many
people are here to learn moreabout themselves?
(24:23):
It was a psychology class, bunchof hands go up.
Right.
Do you think that this is goingto help you when you're doing
therapy?
And people's hands still stayedup.
You'll all be lousy fuckingtherapists because you're doing
it for you, not for otherpeople.
And I remember that.
And I remember saying thathealing ourselves, he said,
healing yourself has to be donethrough your therapist.
(24:44):
It hasn't, it can't be donethrough a client.
Can it help?
SPEAKER_02 (24:47):
That's true.
That's true.
That's true.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Yourself through your clients.
So that's why that was hismessage.
SPEAKER_02 (24:53):
Well, that's a true message.
And I think I would be I wouldbe scared to know how many
professionals don't get help forthemselves.
And I think it's brave for youto tell where you were coming
from.
And that's a perfect example ofself-disclosure that you could
share with maybe a male clientwho has been socialized to think
that they can't ask for help andsaying, like, I've been there
(25:14):
too.
That would be a perfect exampleof something that would be
appropriate to share, right?
And acknowledge the truth sothat they didn't feel alone.
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
And again, by the way, I keep on saying this, but
this book is awesome.
I read it myself, I use itregularly.
There's another copy that's notsigned in my house that I used
to.
And you know, I think aboutsocietal, you know, trauma that
you talk about.
And one of the things thathappens is, and I'll go to our
military and first responderworld.
Well, you got to be tough, yougot to be able to handle it, you
gotta be able to do this.
(25:45):
And I think that part sometimesthat is the trauma of the work
that they do, but also as atherapist, but you have your
shit together, you're atherapist.
I I tell my clients as fucked upas you are, I'm just fucked up
differently.
And I'm working on, and it'sokay to say that, but I think
that what happens is there's apolice officer has to have his
(26:05):
stuff together, firefighter hasto have his stuff together, a
sergeant, a uh admiral, orwhatever has to have their shit
together before they go into.
So that's why they don't need itbecause they have their shit
together.
How do we break that stigma?
Because it really is stigma plustrauma, because it's an
expectation from a community.
And for me, when I hear that uh,I've never asked a therapist a
(26:27):
police officer that intervened,I mean, are you in therapy?
But when police officers,firefighters are honest about
their treatment, I think that'sa great thing, breaking out
social stigma and these barriersthat we've created.
SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
So brave.
I think it's so brave and sovulnerable and so helpful,
right?
And I think that changes oneperson being willing to share
that at a time.
I do, right?
Because if I'm a firefighter andI share it with someone in my
community of firefighters, andthen they get help and they can
go share it with someone else,you know, down the line.
(27:00):
And also seeing someone bewilling to work on their
secondary trauma or their, youknow, their own trauma that's
also being impacted by theirsecondary trauma, I think is
really powerful, right?
And I think those are the peoplethat are going to really change
the trajectory of things.
Also, the younger generationsall have a very different
relationship with mental healthand mental health support.
(27:22):
And I think that in order tostay relevant ever, if they want
recruits, the military firstresponder communities will
either adapt or they will ceaseto exist.
Because the younger and youngergenerations will absolutely not
be part of organizations thatare not gender respectful, that
are not uh mental healthrespectful, that are not
(27:43):
feminist centered.
And so they'll they'll just beirrelevant.
That's maybe not in the verynear future, but as as the
generations evolve, which Ithink we always continue to
evolve, right?
That will not be an acceptablespace for most people.
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
We got a couple of examples for you.
I have um, I want to say four orfive now, under 25 who worked in
the first responder world, theycall me within a year of
starting the service, and theysaid, Look, I may not have
anything wrong with me, but Ihave I want you to have a
relationship with me.
So if I ever need you, you'reavailable.
(28:23):
And yeah, we work on littlethings, and sometimes one of
them I see once every twomonths, and that's fine.
But they know I they have me onspeed dial.
And this generation of anything,I know there's a lot of
questioning sometimes of thatgeneration.
The one thing I can tell you ismentally, mental health-wise,
they are very intelligent andthey get it.
But I think that that change inculture has to happen.
(28:45):
And again, high chiefs, highlieutenants, high admirals and
commanders.
You need to understand thatthat's important.
It's not that they have an issuethat they're that that's the
issue.
It's not treating it, that's thefucking issue.
SPEAKER_02 (28:58):
That's it.
That's the issue, a hundredpercent.
You know, that's it.
It's nobody's fault they have anissue, it's their responsibility
to address it.
And that's hard for all of us aswe and it's a process for all of
us, right?
But it's it's in it'sinstrumental in not doing damage
to other people.
SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
I I think it's instrumental not to like you
know, I we don't have theHippocratic ode in our job, but
do no harm.
And I think police don't havethat Hippocratic ode of do no
harm, but that's the same thing.
Military, do no harm.
It's to protect our country, toprotect and serve our country.
And I think that's importantbecause do doing harm to oneself
(29:34):
is still doing harm.
SPEAKER_02 (29:35):
It is, it is.
That's very, very, very, verytrue.
I agree.
SPEAKER_01 (29:40):
You know, you look at the suicide rates of, and
that's why I would love to haveJeff on.
I hope he does.
Uh, and uh Justin, you I knowyou're listening.
Justin, you're coming on at somepoint too.
Just wanted to throw that out.
SPEAKER_02 (29:52):
Okay, he's gonna love it.
He's gonna be great.
SPEAKER_01 (29:54):
But um, you know, I I think that when you think
about the suicide rates, that'swhat 70% higher than the general
population, if I remember last.
At least.
If you're telling them you havea problem, suck it up buttercup,
you're causing this issue.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
You're causing the secrecy.
SPEAKER_01 (30:13):
And you're causing these suicides.
I'm I'm gonna go step throughthat.
SPEAKER_02 (30:17):
Well, and that causes the suicide.
Yeah, I agree with you.
You have a direct hand in thatperson dying.
I agree.
SPEAKER_01 (30:22):
Calling him a pussy for.
SPEAKER_02 (30:24):
In our story, like in our story in our book, in the
book that we're working on forthe Firefighter Behavioral
Health Alliance, I mean, a lotof these stories are people that
their loved ones tried to gethelp and were not met with sport
within the firefighter firstresponder community.
SPEAKER_01 (30:40):
Absolutely.
There's a guy coming in.
SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
Or they turn to addiction, which is considered
like, you know, the goldstandard of personal treatment
and those things.
And the addiction led to thesuicide, right?
But the bottom line is we knowthat a combination of mental
health challenges, trauma, andaddiction often lead to suicide.
SPEAKER_01 (31:02):
So yeah.
And I think that you talk aboutaddiction.
It doesn't have to besubstances.
Sometimes it's all kinds ofstuff.
SPEAKER_02 (31:11):
Yep.
Behavioral addiction is real.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (31:13):
And shout out to Angie Gunn, who is uh who worked
with us for a while.
But you know, she says there'sno such thing as sex addiction.
I always totally agree todisagree with her because you
know, some people go into thesedeep dark holes, and now
suddenly, like I've had I knowof a suicide across the country
that was someone who got intothese sexual porn sites, got
(31:35):
into relationships thatobviously they weren't
relationships, they were moneyexchanges.
And because they ran out ofmoney and they didn't have
anything else, they offthemselves.
SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
So even the behavioral addictions to me is a
yeah, sex addiction is superreal, and it happens to a lot of
trauma survivors too.
So I've worked with people whoare they don't even know what
they are, they're just they runon trauma and their sexual
connections are all traumarelated and they're impulsive
and they're dangerous andthey're not aligned with their
(32:06):
values, right?
To me, that is addiction, right?
SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
And that's what I mean.
SPEAKER_02 (32:11):
And that the very least, yeah, at the very least,
it's an extreme trauma responsethat is often never addressed.
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
And that's what I mean.
I mean, I you know, there's acase in Massachusetts, um, and
I'm not gonna go into too muchdetail, but this was the power
over women that caused, youknow, a big strife to the point
where that woman committedsuicide and died.
And the police officers had usedthat power all that time.
And I'm not gonna go into toomany details uh because not that
(32:42):
I'm involved in the case, I justdon't want to go into details.
But the point is that even theaddiction of the power over sex
over everything else is alsopart of the issue, you know, and
how many first responders andmilitary military is guilty in
my opinion.
How many of them have gamblingdebt from sports Benny?
SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
You know, that's right, that's right.
Which is it it destroys entirefamilies, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:09):
So that makes sense.
Right?
Hey, you're not doing you're notdoing fentanyl, you're just
gambling on ping pong in Koreathat you know nothing about.
SPEAKER_02 (33:18):
But lying about it and taking family income to do
it, and then losing your spouse.
So I guess if we look ataddictions like negative
consequences that go against ourvalues that we can't stop, that
lead to other loss and moretrauma, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:33):
I mean, I I argue with my first responders who do
details, who do extra work.
I said that's an addiction.
So if you do one in a while,that's great.
But if you're addicted to themoney and that, you are part of
the issue, and that's gonnacause you because when it dries
up or you don't have thecapacity, you're not gonna be
(33:54):
able to keep that lifestyle, andthen you're gonna be hard on
yourself, and there's gonna benegative consequences to that.
SPEAKER_02 (33:59):
Makes sense to me.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
So I think that that's why, like, for me, trauma
is all over the place.
I think that one of uh one of myother guests says grief is the
root of all mental healthissues.
I would argue that grief andtrauma are both.
SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
I think they go together.
It's why I've always beenfascinated and so interested in
helping people with both, right?
Because our grief is directlyimpacted by our trauma, because
the way we view the world isdirectly impacted by our trauma.
And so if one person loses achild and their general belief
about the world is that it'shorrific, that nothing is fair,
(34:36):
that you know everything is bad,is going to happen to them,
that's gonna impact theiralready devastation about losing
their child on a it validates aworldview that treating that is
very different than treatingsomeone who had horrifically
lost a child that has agenerally positive worldview
because they didn't have trauma.
And it doesn't mean that they'renot both in excruciating pain,
(34:59):
but one is on pain on top ofpain, and one is on pain, but
able to navigate it without allthese underlying beliefs about
life, right?
And so they have to be addressedat the same time, especially for
people with trauma because theirgrief is often affected by that
negative worldview.
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
I couldn't agree more, and I think that's it's
one of the other stigmas I findis that grief.
I was actually talking to aformer police officer on on the
way to work today, and it's beentwo weeks, you're good, right?
And like grief has some sort oflike magical date that it's
gonna be, you know, or dealtwith.
(35:36):
And I think that that happens alot with the military and the
first responder world, right?
And it's really, I think whenyou think about grief, I mean,
you're you I'm I don't I hate tosay the expert, but the expert
with me about this.
Is there really an end date togrief?
SPEAKER_02 (35:54):
There's not an end date to grief, but there's an
end date to acute grief andliving in it 24-7 if you're
willing to take certain steps.
SPEAKER_01 (36:02):
What do you mean?
SPEAKER_02 (36:03):
Just like everything else, like you know, there are
people who go through massiveloss that literally never move
forward from that point.
And then there's people who gothrough massive loss that do the
work that they didn't ask tohave to do to make sense of that
loss, to find peace with theloss.
You always know that loss ispresent, but you can have a
(36:23):
fully embodied life without thatperson, it just might not look
the same as it did before.
SPEAKER_01 (36:31):
No, I and I agree, but I want to put it in more
even layman terms.
So you're telling me acute griefdoesn't have a time process, it
has to do with talking about it.
That's really what it is.
It's not a two-week, two-month,two-year project.
SPEAKER_02 (36:45):
No, no, no.
No, it could take many, many,many years, right?
And also, it's not just talkingabout it, it's it's having
evidence-based tools, it'shaving processes, it's having
skills, it's having the rightkind of authentic support.
It's being exposed to otherpeople who can understand,
right?
It's so many different things.
Because, like one of my clientsat yesterday, um, who lost a
(37:08):
child, this person, for allintents and purposes, had a very
idyllic life before that.
And what happened as a resultwas being othered, right?
But also a lot of changes forthe better happened as well.
More empathy, more connection inreal ways.
And so that person is nevergoing to be the same.
(37:28):
But that might not be a badthing because loss can inform us
as human beings, it can help usbecome a better version of
ourselves, or it can help usbecome a bitter, angry, shut
down.
And that's true of almost alllife challenges.
So, you know, it's it's justlike trauma.
Grief is that thing where youdidn't cause it, it's not your
(37:53):
fault, but if you don't dealwith it, it's going to destroy
your life.
SPEAKER_01 (37:57):
Right.
You know, that's a good point,Blight.
And I really appreciate it, andI think it makes perfect sense
to me.
But as we wrap up here, youknow, one of the things I want
to say about grief from myperspective, if you ever doubt
that grief is a positive thing,grief is the reason why I'm here
today and doing treatment andbecause of that's powerful.
(38:19):
Losing my best friend at 12.
And, you know, I'm share alittle more here.
He was Jewish, so I wasn't, Idon't know what the hell was
going on in the 80s, but I wasnot allowed to go to the
funeral.
He died in a fire tragically,holding his brother.
And and my parents, for betteror for worse, said, you know,
that sucks, but that meansyou're gonna play harder in the
(38:39):
game and play football togetherand soccer because he won't be
there.
And that was my grief process.
I don't blame anyone.
I do not blame anyone.
SPEAKER_02 (38:47):
No, but it just hurts me for little Steve, you
know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01 (38:50):
Yeah, and I've compassion for him, but because
of that grief, you know,eventually I got it out, I
worked with it, and I stillsometimes process it.
It's not completely over, it'sno longer acute, which is good.
But I tell people that, youknow, I never wanted a human
being to ever be alone in thatway.
SPEAKER_02 (39:07):
And that's what drives you.
That's so that loss is yourpurpose, right?
Your friend is your purpose, butalso your loneliness is your
purpose.
And that I think that's apowerful testimony to the
importance of finding somethingwithin your pain that can lead
to some meaning derivement,right?
That's really thank you forsharing that.
(39:27):
And I've known you for a longtime, and I didn't know that
story.
SPEAKER_01 (39:30):
Well, you know, the the secrecy and the privacy of a
lot.
Sorry, I feel like I'm talkingabout me, but we'll come back.
SPEAKER_02 (39:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:38):
When I wrote my book, I wrote that whole story.
And it happened when I was 12 inQuebec.
I'm not gonna bore you too long,but we transferred to high
school when we're 12.
So I just had started at highschool.
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
You did write that.
You're right.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (39:51):
And when I when I transferred to that high school,
they don't know my friend, theydidn't know my football life and
all that.
And he died that September,Labor Day.
SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
I remember this now from your book.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (40:03):
My friends, after they read the book, they're
like, I feel a little hurt.
And I said, My friends have 30something years.
And I said, Why is that?
You never mentioned A V once tome.
And I'd never mention it to myfriend.
That's how secret I kept thatpain.
Steve.
No, but that's what I mean aboutno.
I want to use this as a good wayfor people to hear.
(40:24):
We need to open up about thisstuff.
SPEAKER_02 (40:26):
No, no, I know.
I just, you know, I I think it'spowerful that you were able to
take that from your friends too,and to hear like it actually
hurt them to not know about whatyou were going through, which we
don't.
I think when we hide away ourpain, we fear being a burden, or
we fear no one's gonna be there,or we fear someone will minimize
it, because they did, right?
(40:46):
And so uh that's a powerful.
I love that you're I love yourstory of transformation.
And you did share that before,but you just have never shared
it with me in person.
And my aging mind is is obvious,right?
So, you know, I think it's apowerful story, and I love that
you're able to share it here aswell.
(41:07):
I think it'll help somebody.
I really do.
SPEAKER_01 (41:10):
I think that that's where we cross the secrecy and
privacy line.
And this is what I think firstresponders and military
personnel always have tounderstand is that we're not
immune to trauma, not immune toour own laws, and we have our
own stories that sometimes we'reashamed.
And then when we say it outloud, I'm like, why was I
ashamed of that?
Because I put it on myself.
So being able to remove thesecrecy of it is so important
(41:32):
for them to be able to open up.
And I'm not saying, like, youknow, if I was shot at, I've
never been shot at, thankfully.
But if I was shot at and I gointo great detail about being
shot at in session, that'sprobably not appropriate.
That's not good disclosure.
SPEAKER_02 (41:45):
No, that's bad disclosure.
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But being shot at and explaininghow it felt and this and that,
and going just and say, is thathow you felt, or did you feel
something else?
Now suddenly, like, oh shit, hecan relate.
SPEAKER_02 (41:56):
And that's good explaining, yeah, that's good,
that's good um sharing.
I agree.
And what you just shared is verypowerful sharing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:05):
I I'm 50 now.
I don't care.
I don't know if that's a goodthing or a bad thing.
SPEAKER_02 (42:09):
But something really, I don't know if it's
like, you know, we have thesedevelopmental milestones even as
we get older.
And something really does changewhen you when you hear the
number 50, right?
You're just like, what am Idoing?
Like, what am I what is mypurpose, and why do I care so
much?
Because I don't anymore.
You know what I mean?
It really does shift.
SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
You know, it I remember a time where, you know,
and this happens also, I think,in our world in other worlds,
but you know, I was not sexuallyattracted, but attracted to
people with power, attractedwith people who could help me,
attracted to people who are goodlooking, and that happened too.
And I realized, like, that's allbullshit.
(42:50):
Because it doesn't matter, allthat is that what it like, what
do I need?
Because it doesn't matter ifthey put me under their wing or
whatever, it's important what Ineed.
And yeah, I started out a littleearlier, but I think that
there's something that happenedwhen I turned 50 that I truly at
this point I'm like, are we onthe same page or not?
And if we're not, that's okay.
(43:11):
Shake hands, move on.
I don't have time to try toplease people anymore.
SPEAKER_02 (43:15):
Yeah, I get that.
I really do get that.
You're such a great person,Steve.
I'm so glad we know each otherand we're friends, and I'm so
glad we've worked togetherthroughout the years.
Really, I love what you'redoing.
I love that your set yourpodcast is on this episode, and
I haven't been on it in likeseveral hundred, almost a couple
hundred, right?
And so I just think it's it'sreally cool what you're doing.
(43:38):
Really.
SPEAKER_01 (43:39):
Well, from the bottom of my heart, I think we
we always touched the surface.
We didn't even talk about thetrauma of the collective and as
well as the work trauma.
SPEAKER_02 (43:47):
We're gonna have to do a part two.
SPEAKER_01 (43:49):
I I just want you back.
The one thing I'm gonna say toyou, and I commit to this on a
podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (43:54):
Uh-oh.
SPEAKER_01 (43:56):
I gotta go down to Pennsylvania.
Come see me, and I'd love to seeyou because that's the other
part too, which is what I loveabout our friendships.
Our friendship has never beenabout being close, it's about
being close and extremelydistance.
SPEAKER_02 (44:11):
Yeah.
All right, I'm gonna hold you tothat.
I want you here in Pittsburgh.
SPEAKER_01 (44:15):
It's recorded uh here, um, so I can't change
that.
But I need to go to Pittsburgh.
I've never been to Pittsburgh.
SPEAKER_02 (44:21):
Oh, you'd love it.
It's great.
It's no Massachusetts, but it'sit's great in its own way.
It's got, you know what youwould love about Pittsburgh?
It's got grit, and you've gotgrit.
SPEAKER_01 (44:30):
But that's what I that's exactly like.
I have two clients fromPittsburgh originally.
SPEAKER_02 (44:35):
They're kind of rough around the edges.
SPEAKER_01 (44:37):
They're my people.
SPEAKER_02 (44:38):
Yeah, they're they're direct, they're gritty,
and they're very, very welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (44:43):
And they will they will give the shirt off their
back if you ask them.
SPEAKER_02 (44:46):
It's true.
Yeah.
All right, well, we're gonna getthat planned.
This is awesome today.
SPEAKER_01 (44:51):
I will I know this this, you know, this this
podcast comes out at the end ofOctober, but I I I I pledged
that by 2026.
By the end of 2026, I will havebeen to Pittsburgh.
I will have and again, I don'tthink I need to say that for
you.
I'm saying it for the audience.
And with your consent, I willhug you because I really want to
(45:12):
meet you.
SPEAKER_02 (45:12):
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (45:15):
But I think it's for the podcast, but I didn't think
that you were opposed to that.
Uh but I and then just speak andbe with each other, have a
coffee.
We've never done that.
And I would love it.
And I think that that's what I Ithink we should end on, and not
only having you back on theshow, but also I'm committing to
(45:35):
it.
I'm 100% committing to go toPittsburgh to see you.
SPEAKER_02 (45:38):
All right, I can't wait.
SPEAKER_01 (45:39):
I'll be here.
Well, you know, how do we reachyou, Blight, before we hang up
here?
SPEAKER_02 (45:45):
You can find me on Instagram at Blightlandry Coach,
right?
You can find my website,Blythlandry.com.
The name of my program uh thatis for people who want to be
certified grief coaches thathave gone through grief is grief
to purpose.
The new website is going to belaunched imminently, so it'll be
grieftopurpose.net, right?
(46:07):
And um yeah, I'm also onFacebook as Blythe Landry, so
I'm everywhere.
SPEAKER_01 (46:12):
And and you don't need need to have a master's to
go do your your program on griefcoaching, do we?
SPEAKER_02 (46:18):
No, this program is for grievers.
That's what I'm looking for.
I'm looking for people who'vegone through real loss, who are
willing to continue to workthrough that loss, even if
they've been working on it for along time.
We want to connect to otherpeople in small community who
are grievers and who want to doexactly what Steve did, which is
find a way to create some typeof purpose, whether that means
(46:40):
going out and being a griefcoach yourself, doing it as a
career, doing it as a volunteer,doing nonprofit, doing stuff in
your church, community, whateverit is for you.
One of the things I'm most proudof is not only are our students,
people I would call likeunicorns because they're walking
around thinking about this kindof stuff, 99% of our students
(47:00):
have no experience ever doingthis.
They want the trauma-informedpart that we offer, and they
they find that through thisprogram, they're getting more
healing than they've ever got,even if they've been working on
their grief for a long time,exactly because of what Steve
said.
They're finding a way to createmeaning.
Even, you know, it's that VictorFrankel thing, right?
The only difference between usand every other living thing is
(47:20):
our ability to create meaning.
And so if we choose that path,whether it's real, made up, or
whatever, it works.
So yeah.
And I want to be considered forthat program, you just reach out
to me, we'll set up a call andsee if it's a good fit.
SPEAKER_01 (47:35):
I want to mention that for two reasons.
Number one, therapists can join,obviously, very good people, but
I want to make sure, based onwho listens to this podcast, I
want my peer support people whowork in departments across the
country to know that they canjoin this and being informed and
they can bring it back to peersupport because again, that's
(47:55):
perfect.
SPEAKER_02 (47:56):
Absolutely.
We've had people's companieseven pay for them to do this.
We've had we've had a lot ofreally cool things happen.
The peer support people areperfect for this community.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (48:06):
I'm sending that out to my peeps and the uh the
emergency responder, firstresponder, depending on who
you'd mean.
But that's who I send it out.
You know, again, I vouch for itpersonally.
And you know me, you've listenedif you've listened to 228
episodes.
I've promoted you know, twothings ever as a commercial.
(48:28):
I would do 14 commercials forBlight, and it wouldn't be
enough because that's how much Ibelieve in this program.
And that's why peersparticularly should go there
because sometimes hearing metalk about grief as a therapist
that's helpful, but apeer-to-peer that's strong.
That's like, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (48:44):
That's what I always say.
This is not about me, it's aboutthe community of people that are
supporting each other, and it'samazing.
And all of our coaches aregraduates of the program, and
all of our coaches that run thecalls.
I've removed myself from thecenter.
They're all peers, they're allpeople who have gone through
catastrophic loss and learned todo this work.
So awesome.
Well, it's been great, and Ican't wait to give you a hug in
(49:05):
person, Steve.
SPEAKER_01 (49:06):
Well, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna hold you to
coming back, number one.
Number two, I'm coming.
SPEAKER_02 (49:17):
Talking, yeah, I know.
We'll get into some trouble withall our ideas.
SPEAKER_01 (49:21):
And please please go find Blight, go do this program.
It's amazing.
I'm I I don't endorse itlightly.
I endorse it because I mean it.
And um, and if not, if you justwant to read about stuff, Trauma
Intelligence is a great bookthat's really reachable.
It's not made for professionals,and I mean that professionals
can get something out of it,don't get me wrong.
(49:42):
But because it's not made forprofessionals, it's available to
everyone.
And I really encourage people toalso grab your book.
So um thank you so much, Steve.
I'll I'll uh I'll send you mybill for all these plugs.
I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_02 (49:53):
I know, I'm ready.
SPEAKER_01 (49:55):
Um, but anyway, um, from the bottom of my heart, you
know I love you, but I'll say itanyway.
I love you.
I really love you.
I love me too.
SPEAKER_02 (50:02):
Yeah, same.
SPEAKER_01 (50:03):
And then uh for those of you who are listening
to the podcast still after thislove fest, uh, please join us
for episode 229, and I'll seeyou then.
SPEAKER_00 (50:14):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(50:38):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in
Action, where strength meetsstrategy and courage to help you
move forward.
Each week, your host, SteveBisolk, a therapist with over
two decades of experience in thefirst responder community,
brings you powerfulconversations about resilience,
growth, and healing throughtrauma and grief.
Through authentic interviews,expert discussions, and
(00:21):
real-world experiences, we divedeep into the heart of human
resilience.
We explore crucial topics liketrauma recovery, grief
processing, stress management,and emotional well-being.
This is Resilience Developmentin Action with Steve B.
SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
Sol.ai.
You heard me talk about it.
I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf, 18 minutes of practice
(00:57):
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So for$99 a month, it saves meso much time that it's
(01:20):
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And if you do it for a wholeyear, guess what?
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(01:42):
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Get free from even writing yourtranscripts.
Use that to your advantage.
Free.ai, a great service.
Go to getfree.ai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly encourage you to doso.
(02:08):
Well, hi everyone.
Welcome to episode 228.
If you haven't listened toepisode 227, it was with Amanda
Rizzoli.
We talked about mental health inuh Milford, Massachusetts, with
working with the police.
We talked also about being aspouse of a law enforcement
officer and the effects on that.
So go back and listen to that.
But today is a returning guest.
But to me, it's not a returningguest, it's a returning friend.
(02:30):
I've worked with Blythe at acompany for a couple of years,
and she is one of the few peopleI stayed in touch with.
And we've worked on projectstogether, we've exchanged
clients at times.
Uh, but just a wonderful humanbeing.
And look, I can even say I haveher book, and it's great.
unknown (02:51):
It's mine.
SPEAKER_02 (02:52):
It is.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
Well, welcome Blight Landry to Resilience Development
in Action.
Sorry, old habits die hard.
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Oh, yeah, I get it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:01):
And for those of you who may, you know, hopefully
this sounds really good.
It sounds like I hear her fine,she hears me fine, but my
microphone decided not to worktoday.
So hey, we're just flying by theseat of our pants.
But that's kind of what we'vealways done.
Me and her, we one of the thingsI want to tribute to her, and
this is the truth.
I have a lot of trust in Blythe.
(03:22):
I've worked with her for a longtime.
And she sends me referrals orshe says, Hey, I need this.
We don't need to say thank you.
We don't need to kiss up, askfor stuff that we don't need.
We just jump to what needs to bedone.
And yeah, once in a while wecatch up on our lives.
But ultimately, it's a show ofrespect, not that we're all
business, but that there's atime for both.
And there's not like, well, youweren't nice about this.
(03:44):
There's none of that crap.
And I really admire Blight forthat as a friend, uh, as a
colleague, but someone as ahuman being, I just truly love
you.
And I want to start off bysaying that.
SPEAKER_02 (03:54):
I feel the same way, Steve.
I think you're amazing.
We've always had a good and awonderful connection right from
the beginning.
SPEAKER_01 (03:59):
I mean, we're not going to talk about the company
itself.
I try not to promote things Idon't believe in.
But I do remember one thing isthat something whacked was, and
I'm not going to say what itwas.
And it was in Slack, I believe.
You wrote to me privately, like,do you think this makes any
sense?
And then we exchanged.
I think that's how we reallystarted to connect because we
(04:21):
were kind of like, as aprofessional, this is wrong.
And the reason why I don't sayword names, because I don't want
to be called slandering anycompany, but the truth is that
we got along 99% of the time.
So uh, but again, I'm describingyou from my point of view, which
is probably more friendly.
But uh, how about you introduceyourself again?
(04:41):
I know you've introducedyourself on episode, I want to
say 41, right?
But you know, 228 episodes now,so almost 200 down the road.
SPEAKER_02 (04:50):
Maybe people can I admire your uh your consistency,
Steve.
It's a beautiful thing.
And I know this podcast ishelping a lot of people.
Um, and every time you putyourself out there, you bring
someone in who can help yourcommunity.
And I love it.
So so yeah, I'm Blythe,obviously.
I'm a therapist and coach uhlike Steve.
I specialize in trauma andgrief.
(05:12):
And I've been doing this workfor 25 years.
I'm almost 51.
And it's amazing the things thatyou learn um just in doing
something for a long time,right?
And one of the things you learnis you always have more to
learn.
So I'm always learning, I'malways working on myself.
I always end up in my owntherapy, my own coaching.
And my business and my practicehas had so many iterations
(05:32):
through the years, right?
So, as Steve shared, I have abook out on trauma.
It's called Trauma Intelligence,the Art of Helping in a World
Filled with Pain.
I also um run and have a teamthat helps me run an amazing
team, um, a grief coaching, atrauma-informed grief coaching
certification program.
And it's specifically forgrievers, many, many, many of
(05:53):
whom have gone through verytraumatic loss.
So that's my current project anddone work with the Coast Guard,
right?
With Steve and I did a projecttogether with my strong
guardians through the CoastGuard for trauma stuff, and um
also done tons of trainings fororganizations, nonprofits, a
Fortune 5 company, the USLouisiana Department of Health
(06:14):
on trauma and and how thatimpacts us and secondary trauma
and how that impacts us, right?
So I love my job.
I don't ever want to retire.
It's my favorite thing aboutmyself, you know, it's a thing
that I know that I'mconsistently good at.
And that's something that bringsme great pride and humility and
um gratitude.
(06:35):
So that's where I'm coming from.
SPEAKER_01 (06:37):
Well, that's probably why we get along for so
many other reasons.
Like, yeah, we're both I I justturned 50 a couple months ago.
I've been doing this for 26years, more years than I have
not done it.
And that's right.
What I love about what youtalked about is exactly what I
feel most people, and again,there's no knock on anyone, but
(06:59):
in our field, and we'll get backto the first responder stuff and
the military stuff, veryimportant stuff.
But what I find that people makea mistake is here's my niche,
and I'll never move from it.
And I started as a child andfamily specialists.
And, you know, I hear you're youtalked about your career and
where you've been.
That's exactly it, is that wejust keep on evolving and
(07:21):
changing stuff because that'swhat we need to do.
And that's why, like, you know,like you, I've worked with
people in the Fortune 500companies and I've worked in
going to the homeless sheltersand homeless, like I we call it
the weeds around here, but Iwent to the weeds and talked to
people and everywhere inbetween.
And learning to be able to adaptto what is needed is so
(07:44):
important.
But then when you find yourpassion, you make that the main
part, but not singularly thepart.
SPEAKER_02 (07:49):
Yeah, yeah, I love it.
Yeah, we're definitely alignedon that.
SPEAKER_01 (07:53):
And I just had therapy, so I'm feeling really
good.
I have my therapy right beforethis uh recording.
So uh thanks, Joe.
Uh, I know he doesn't listen,but makes me feel good to say
thank you.
But no, I think that that's whatyou know, it's important to talk
about a lot of the stuff.
You know, one of the things Iwant to mention on this podcast,
because I think it's gonnamilitary stuff is important to
(08:14):
me too.
I really enjoyed working withyou on the Mind Strong Guardians
and Justin and our whole team.
And because there are people whowere there who had lived
experience, I'm not in libertyto discuss their names.
That's not my job.
Um, that's for them if they wantto talk about it.
But we had, you know, livedexperience, people who've been
through trauma, sexual assault,particularly in the Coast Guard.
(08:37):
And we were doing fantasticwork.
And one one of the things that Iloved is that I was typically
the only male in the room, and Iwas one of the leaders with
Blight.
And I would always ask Blaine,I'm like, I'm the dude, and
these are all women who havebeen unfortunately have had some
sexual trauma of some sort.
And you would be like, Yeah,you're a trustworthy person.
(09:00):
I don't know where you come fromthat, but I'm like, you always
encourage me to be myself, andthe more I was myself, the more
people were comfortable with me.
So I remember that too.
Do you think that when peopleare talking about hard stuff,
whether it's trauma, grief, theauthenticity of the therapist is
as important as the authenticityof the client?
SPEAKER_02 (09:20):
As much even more, right?
Because if I'm authentic, Iinvite the other person to be
authentic, right?
I think that's where so many ofus miss the boat and we're not
trained properly as clinicianson this, is that being present
in that relationship, thatwhether it's an educational
relationship, whether it's atherapeutic, whether it's a
coaching relationship, is socrucial because otherwise I'm
(09:42):
just a warm body sitting acrossfrom someone that has no skin in
the game.
And I've always, always feltlike if my client is going to
come and be that vulnerable andtell me things that nobody else
in their life knows about them,how dare I not be part of this
conversation?
Right?
It's it's not fair.
And so while I don't thinkobviously I should be disclosing
(10:05):
everything about myself all thetime, there are times when
disclosure where relatability,where saying, hey, it's okay,
you're not alone, are crucial tohelping another person.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (10:17):
I I can't remember what the exact wording was, but
um I'll I'll put it the best wayI can.
Appropriate disclosure is soimportant, you know,
particularly working with themilitary, the first respondent.
And frankly, like when I workwith women with trauma, I gotta
be as authentic as I can becausethey can a read a fucking fake a
mile away.
SPEAKER_02 (10:38):
Yep.
unknown (10:38):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (10:39):
More importantly, they're like, oh, I can trust
this person, which is soimportant.
SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Um, you know, and I think that that's the disclosure
you're talking about.
We're not here to this, I'm notI'm not here to put down what we
learn as education, but for me,I go back to more of a Buddhist
practice is that there's adifference between privacy and
secrecy.
Um that's not for you.
And when I talk to my therapist,sometimes I'll talk about it,
(11:04):
but that's my privacy, that's mything I gotta work on.
But then when you go intosecrecy, like, oh, what's your
experience with blank, or whatwhy are we being secret about
that?
When people ask me, Do you havetwo kids?
Well, they can Google it,they'll know I have two kids.
I I don't believe in keepingsecrets from my clients, and I
think that that's really whatencourages people.
Can you talk a little more aboutthat being like disclose
(11:26):
appropriate self-disclosurewhile also being not and secrecy
and privacy?
SPEAKER_02 (11:31):
Yeah, well, I think there's a beautiful distinction
between secrecy and privacy, andthat's true of all our
relationships, right?
I think the litmus test that Iuse is am I sharing this to make
it about me, or am I sharingthis so that they feel connected
and less alone?
And if the answer every time isI'm sharing this so that they
feel connected, supported, seen,and not alone, then I'm always
(11:53):
on the right side of it, right?
Um obviously it should never beabout me getting my needs met,
but it should always be aboutbeing authentic so that that
person can get their needs met.
Sometimes I find myself feelingthis strong intuition with
certain clients to tell themsomething I've never told a
client before, right?
That again tells me that that'san indicator that this is about
(12:18):
them needing to hear this inthis moment.
And that also, that intuition, Ithink, comes from being
authentic.
It comes from caring, it comesfrom not being just a brick
wall, right?
It comes from not justdisclosure, but authentically
being attached to someone in away that you want them to be
attached to you in the serviceof helping them heal.
SPEAKER_01 (12:40):
The best compliment I ever got, and I'm sure this
has happened to you, is that ohmy God, I feel like I can talk
to you.
You're not putting on a face,you're not.
We don't show up like again.
This is how I dress today forwork, and I'm gonna see clients
that way.
It's not unprofessional and notlike, you know, whatever bad
message I can have on my shirt,but it's so informal that people
(13:02):
are like, oh, you're informal, Ican talk to you.
I I think that plays a hugefactor, but particularly, I
think about my first respondersand the military personnel that
we've both worked with.
Can you talk a little more abouthow military personnel would
react if we were like if I wasin a suit and tie, for example,
or uh I was like, tell me howyou feel about that.
SPEAKER_02 (13:23):
Well, first of all, it could be very triggering,
right?
Activating because it can remindthem of their need to be formal,
their need to defer, right?
Especially depending on theirrank in the military.
And so that could actuallyre-trigger trauma because we
already know in many facets ofthe military, it is not safe to
have emotion.
(13:44):
It is not safe to be vulnerable,it is not safe to ask for help,
even, even though it's said thatit is.
There's all these underlying andobvious and also idiosyncratic
ways that that gets shovedaside.
And so I think that would bevery potentially off-putting to
someone, right?
And potentially make them feelreally unsafe and or like they
(14:06):
had to defer to you instead ofhaving equal connection to you.
Is that something that youyou've experienced or heard
about, Steve?
SPEAKER_01 (14:14):
100%.
What I didn't I didn't thinkabout that part.
I never put it in words, so Iappreciate it.
One of the guys once told me islike when I went for my fit for
duty, it was a guy in a suit andtie who was evaluating me.
When I was sitting with you, Ifeel like you know, I'm talking
to a friend, a paid friend, butnonetheless a friend, because
you're more informal and you'reable to connect with me.
(14:35):
So when I say something, you cansay it's messed up or whatever.
And I think that, you know, whenI uh you know, one of the
constant message on my podcastsfor resilience development and
action is that you gotta knowwhich culture you're working
with, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (14:48):
Yes, and you have to meet them where they are, right?
SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
And I talk about a lot about the first responder
culture.
SPEAKER_02 (14:54):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (14:55):
But the military culture is its own freaking
animal, if you ask me.
SPEAKER_02 (15:00):
Oh, for sure.
Yeah, I mean, it's its ownculture.
It's this secret world ofthings, right?
Look what's on the news today.
I mean, it's a disaster, but thereality of it is like it's this
whole secret world where peoplehave different stated and
unstated expectations, right?
And as you and I saw fromMindstrong, and we're working on
(15:24):
the sexual trauma and theoperational trauma in the Coast
Guard, that there's still suchuh stigma to even things that
are helpful, right?
Those things get taken away,they get removed, they get
shoved under the rug.
You almost get like mildlypenalized or punitive language
when you're trying to bring thelight out of the darkness.
(15:47):
And I think it's it's sort oflike this very interesting
family dynamic that happens whenkids are molested in homes,
right?
Where the family does everythingthey can to keep it a secret and
the non-abusive spouse pretendslike nothing's happening.
This happens in the military.
It's like a it's like anotherfamilial experience where
(16:09):
everything bad that's going onis only moderately addressed,
and the damage is catastrophic.
SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
Right.
And go ahead.
SPEAKER_02 (16:18):
They talk about collateral damage and war and
and those things.
What they don't talk about isthe emotional collateral damage
of not addressing the realisticand real things that are
happening for first respondersand military, both.
SPEAKER_01 (16:33):
I think that with the military, it's even worse
because with some departments ingeneral, I'm not saying there's
there's transparency, but thethere is some transparency, and
I say this very lightly.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Um yeah.
And different units, right?
Different parts of the countryare responding in different
ways, different policedepartments, different fire
departments, different, but youknow, before we got on, we were
talking about my friend JeffDill, and he started and runs uh
Firefighter Behavioral HealthAlliance.
And I he and I have been workingon a book for a long time.
(17:06):
It's gonna come out at somepoint, and it's doing the it's a
it's interviewing uh familymembers of people who lost their
first responder to suicide,right?
One of the things that he doesis he's since 2010 tracked
firefighter, uh paramedic andEMT suicides, right?
EMS suicides.
And let's just say this noteverybody likes what he's doing,
(17:28):
right?
And he has been blocked in somesituations for doing the right
thing, for actually bringingvoice to what's actually going
on.
He also does something reallyamazing.
He hosts a retreat every year uhfor those who have lost their
first responder to suicide.
And it's it's a beautiful,beautiful thing.
But yeah, I mean, let's just saynot everybody is smiling upon
(17:49):
what he's doing, which is justtelling the truth.
SPEAKER_01 (17:52):
And that's part of the secrecy we just talked about
earlier, is that you know, youtalk about the military.
I, you know, one of the storiesthat I I keep on plays back in
my head all the time.
There was an issue with aparticular person, and a few
women reported him.
He was moved to another unit.
He wasn't discharged.
(18:12):
He was, and why was he moved?
And then the other unit wasblind to what happened.
And that's the secrecy that getsreally in the way, in my
opinion.
And when you call it out, likeyou know, I feel like what we do
in general and what I do in myjob, you're not gonna be
popular.
But I've always thought, and I Ican't remember who said this,
(18:35):
but to be popular means you'renot necessarily telling the
truth.
SPEAKER_02 (18:39):
That and if everyone likes you, you probably have
zero integrity, right?
I always think it's we're sayingthe same thing in a different
way.
I always think like if everyonein the world likes me, then I am
standing for nothing.
Right.
And uh I think those of us whohave louder voices are you know,
those of us, those that love us,love us, and those that don't,
don't.
I don't want to be loved bysomeone who is okay with
(19:01):
colluding sexual trauma, right?
SPEAKER_01 (19:03):
There's so many things I don't want in my life.
Yeah, it's hard to mean what thejob is is to find the good in
people and find the good in, youknow, what I like is I think
that me and you can have adisagreement, but it will never
be meant as disrespectful.
And we disagree, and then we'regonna move on.
I think unfortunately, the otherpart too that you find the
(19:23):
military in the first responderworld, and correct me if I'm
wrong, which causes trauma, isyou disagreed with one of your
superiors, then that's heldagainst you for several months
and several years later, becauseyou know, you can't have that
disagreement, and that causestrauma and that makes strife,
and then you have this judgmentabout you know, someone says,
Oh, don't talk to Blight, she'sgonna tell you the truth, and
(19:44):
she's she's gonna make up hertruth or whatever.
They play you down, but now youdon't know that that's what
happened, it's just because youwere ruffling feathers.
I think that plays a good in myopinion.
SPEAKER_02 (19:54):
But what do I agree?
I agree with you wholeheartedlyon that, Steve, for sure.
SPEAKER_01 (19:58):
Yeah, I think I think that we be again, I don't
want to process our old company,but I think that that's why
sometimes people didn't like mein that company.
Because if something, you know,I I I say to my clients, if it
smells like a rose and lookslike a rose, I don't need to get
pricked to know it's a rose.
And if it smells like shit andlooks like shit, I don't need to
lick it to know it's shit.
SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
Tis true.
SPEAKER_01 (20:20):
And I think that that's what happens is when you
say the truth, people don't likeit.
And I'm okay with that.
SPEAKER_02 (20:25):
Yeah, I'm uh you and I are on the same page for sure.
For me, my I would rather be anadvocate than somebody who bends
other people's dishonesty.
SPEAKER_01 (20:38):
Yeah.
I'd rather you I'd rather youdespise me for half a second,
but respect that I told you thetruth than you want because I
was nice to you, but I didn'tmake any changes in your life or
changes in society or whatever.
SPEAKER_02 (20:51):
And I think that that goes a long way working
with first responder military,right?
Because the the ability to go tosomeone that's gonna say what's
true.
I always think a good uh litmustest for like being a supportive
trauma therapist or coach or orjust friend is always say what's
true.
Like that's catastrophic.
(21:11):
That's the worst thing thatcould have possibly happened.
It is horrific to be molested.
It is horrific to be uh sexuallyassaulted instead of
whitewashing language.
I think when someone feels likeyou're just saying the truth,
they can trust you.
And I think they can trust youif you're willing to sit in the
discomfort of saying what'strue, even if what's true is
(21:32):
really ugly.
SPEAKER_01 (21:33):
Let me throw a little wrinkle, and I'd love to
hear your point.
That's what I like about us isso you tell the truth and you're
punished for it.
So is it really worth saying thetruth?
SPEAKER_02 (21:47):
Yes.
Why?
Well, not for the victim, butfor the ally.
SPEAKER_01 (21:52):
Why?
Please explain.
SPEAKER_02 (21:54):
Um, because I think that people that are victims
need allies and advocates to notbe liked on their behalf.
I do think for the person thatis traumatized, there's not
always a huge payoff for tellingthe truth.
In fact, there's a negativerepercussion for it almost
always.
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
If I hear one more time, what was she wearing or
did she drink?
I'm gonna throw up.
SPEAKER_02 (22:17):
Uh yeah, it's disgusting.
SPEAKER_01 (22:20):
You know, and I don't care about that.
Consents, consents, consent.
And you're right.
I want to like I feel the sameway.
I think that one what I see.
You say advocate, I saytherapist, I say counselor, I
say peer support, whatever worksfor people, it doesn't matter
because I think with our mindfulguardianship, we were trying to
train people to be good peersupport people, and hopefully uh
(22:43):
that happened because you knowwe're no longer involved, and
hopefully they're stillsupporting each other.
But the bottom line is that Ithink some of our role, you
know, when we can have you knowtrauma intelligence, read my
book, read ever 1400 books.
If you don't know how toadvocate for your client that's
in front of you, and advocatedoesn't mean you go on the
street and go, you know, she gotraided by John Doe.
(23:07):
It's advocating so they feelstronger.
I think that that's the otherpart too, because I I that's why
I was asking about the ally, andI see us as allies as therapists
and people.
So when I tell people come totherapy, it's because you're
gonna add an ally on your side.
Who might be uncomfortable, butit will help you.
SPEAKER_02 (23:26):
But it's doing it because they care, right?
And hopefully that therapist isalso getting therapy for
themselves, like we do.
Which is a whole nother topic ofconversation.
But you know, I hope thatthere's more therapists out
there than are not that areactually taking their work so
seriously that they're gettinghelp for themselves so that they
can be their best selves fortheir clients, which their
(23:48):
clients deserve.
SPEAKER_01 (23:49):
I think it's worth talking about, even though,
like, because I think that'simportant too.
I I remember, I'll be truthfulwhen I first started in this
field, being in therapy was asign of weakness, even for me.
SPEAKER_02 (24:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (24:01):
I didn't do it.
And I'll be again, fulldisclosure.
I don't think that's a secret.
I think that's good in talkingthat's not I need to open up
about that.
But eventually I saw the valueof that.
And I think that what happens isI remember I went back to a
conversation from my undergrad.
One of the teachers said to ourgroup, like, okay, how many
people are here to learn moreabout themselves?
(24:23):
It was a psychology class, bunchof hands go up.
Right.
Do you think that this is goingto help you when you're doing
therapy?
And people's hands still stayedup.
You'll all be lousy fuckingtherapists because you're doing
it for you, not for otherpeople.
And I remember that.
And I remember saying thathealing ourselves, he said,
healing yourself has to be donethrough your therapist.
(24:44):
It hasn't, it can't be donethrough a client.
Can it help?
SPEAKER_02 (24:47):
That's true.
That's true.
That's true.
SPEAKER_01 (24:49):
Yourself through your clients.
So that's why that was hismessage.
SPEAKER_02 (24:53):
Well, that's a true message.
And I think I would be I wouldbe scared to know how many
professionals don't get help forthemselves.
And I think it's brave for youto tell where you were coming
from.
And that's a perfect example ofself-disclosure that you could
share with maybe a male clientwho has been socialized to think
that they can't ask for help andsaying, like, I've been there
(25:14):
too.
That would be a perfect exampleof something that would be
appropriate to share, right?
And acknowledge the truth sothat they didn't feel alone.
SPEAKER_01 (25:23):
And again, by the way, I keep on saying this, but
this book is awesome.
I read it myself, I use itregularly.
There's another copy that's notsigned in my house that I used
to.
And you know, I think aboutsocietal, you know, trauma that
you talk about.
And one of the things thathappens is, and I'll go to our
military and first responderworld.
Well, you got to be tough, yougot to be able to handle it, you
gotta be able to do this.
(25:45):
And I think that part sometimesthat is the trauma of the work
that they do, but also as atherapist, but you have your
shit together, you're atherapist.
I I tell my clients as fucked upas you are, I'm just fucked up
differently.
And I'm working on, and it'sokay to say that, but I think
that what happens is there's apolice officer has to have his
(26:05):
stuff together, firefighter hasto have his stuff together, a
sergeant, a uh admiral, orwhatever has to have their shit
together before they go into.
So that's why they don't need itbecause they have their shit
together.
How do we break that stigma?
Because it really is stigma plustrauma, because it's an
expectation from a community.
And for me, when I hear that uh,I've never asked a therapist a
(26:27):
police officer that intervened,I mean, are you in therapy?
But when police officers,firefighters are honest about
their treatment, I think that'sa great thing, breaking out
social stigma and these barriersthat we've created.
SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
So brave.
I think it's so brave and sovulnerable and so helpful,
right?
And I think that changes oneperson being willing to share
that at a time.
I do, right?
Because if I'm a firefighter andI share it with someone in my
community of firefighters, andthen they get help and they can
go share it with someone else,you know, down the line.
(27:00):
And also seeing someone bewilling to work on their
secondary trauma or their, youknow, their own trauma that's
also being impacted by theirsecondary trauma, I think is
really powerful, right?
And I think those are the peoplethat are going to really change
the trajectory of things.
Also, the younger generationsall have a very different
relationship with mental healthand mental health support.
(27:22):
And I think that in order tostay relevant ever, if they want
recruits, the military firstresponder communities will
either adapt or they will ceaseto exist.
Because the younger and youngergenerations will absolutely not
be part of organizations thatare not gender respectful, that
are not uh mental healthrespectful, that are not
(27:43):
feminist centered.
And so they'll they'll just beirrelevant.
That's maybe not in the verynear future, but as as the
generations evolve, which Ithink we always continue to
evolve, right?
That will not be an acceptablespace for most people.
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
We got a couple of examples for you.
I have um, I want to say four orfive now, under 25 who worked in
the first responder world, theycall me within a year of
starting the service, and theysaid, Look, I may not have
anything wrong with me, but Ihave I want you to have a
relationship with me.
So if I ever need you, you'reavailable.
(28:23):
And yeah, we work on littlethings, and sometimes one of
them I see once every twomonths, and that's fine.
But they know I they have me onspeed dial.
And this generation of anything,I know there's a lot of
questioning sometimes of thatgeneration.
The one thing I can tell you ismentally, mental health-wise,
they are very intelligent andthey get it.
But I think that that change inculture has to happen.
(28:45):
And again, high chiefs, highlieutenants, high admirals and
commanders.
You need to understand thatthat's important.
It's not that they have an issuethat they're that that's the
issue.
It's not treating it, that's thefucking issue.
SPEAKER_02 (28:58):
That's it.
That's the issue, a hundredpercent.
You know, that's it.
It's nobody's fault they have anissue, it's their responsibility
to address it.
And that's hard for all of us aswe and it's a process for all of
us, right?
But it's it's in it'sinstrumental in not doing damage
to other people.
SPEAKER_01 (29:13):
I I think it's instrumental not to like you
know, I we don't have theHippocratic ode in our job, but
do no harm.
And I think police don't havethat Hippocratic ode of do no
harm, but that's the same thing.
Military, do no harm.
It's to protect our country, toprotect and serve our country.
And I think that's importantbecause do doing harm to oneself
(29:34):
is still doing harm.
SPEAKER_02 (29:35):
It is, it is.
That's very, very, very, verytrue.
I agree.
SPEAKER_01 (29:40):
You know, you look at the suicide rates of, and
that's why I would love to haveJeff on.
I hope he does.
Uh, and uh Justin, you I knowyou're listening.
Justin, you're coming on at somepoint too.
Just wanted to throw that out.
SPEAKER_02 (29:52):
Okay, he's gonna love it.
He's gonna be great.
SPEAKER_01 (29:54):
But um, you know, I I think that when you think
about the suicide rates, that'swhat 70% higher than the general
population, if I remember last.
At least.
If you're telling them you havea problem, suck it up buttercup,
you're causing this issue.
SPEAKER_02 (30:11):
You're causing the secrecy.
SPEAKER_01 (30:13):
And you're causing these suicides.
I'm I'm gonna go step throughthat.
SPEAKER_02 (30:17):
Well, and that causes the suicide.
Yeah, I agree with you.
You have a direct hand in thatperson dying.
I agree.
SPEAKER_01 (30:22):
Calling him a pussy for.
SPEAKER_02 (30:24):
In our story, like in our story in our book, in the
book that we're working on forthe Firefighter Behavioral
Health Alliance, I mean, a lotof these stories are people that
their loved ones tried to gethelp and were not met with sport
within the firefighter firstresponder community.
SPEAKER_01 (30:40):
Absolutely.
There's a guy coming in.
SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
Or they turn to addiction, which is considered
like, you know, the goldstandard of personal treatment
and those things.
And the addiction led to thesuicide, right?
But the bottom line is we knowthat a combination of mental
health challenges, trauma, andaddiction often lead to suicide.
SPEAKER_01 (31:02):
So yeah.
And I think that you talk aboutaddiction.
It doesn't have to besubstances.
Sometimes it's all kinds ofstuff.
SPEAKER_02 (31:11):
Yep.
Behavioral addiction is real.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (31:13):
And shout out to Angie Gunn, who is uh who worked
with us for a while.
But you know, she says there'sno such thing as sex addiction.
I always totally agree todisagree with her because you
know, some people go into thesedeep dark holes, and now
suddenly, like I've had I knowof a suicide across the country
that was someone who got intothese sexual porn sites, got
(31:35):
into relationships thatobviously they weren't
relationships, they were moneyexchanges.
And because they ran out ofmoney and they didn't have
anything else, they offthemselves.
SPEAKER_02 (31:44):
So even the behavioral addictions to me is a
yeah, sex addiction is superreal, and it happens to a lot of
trauma survivors too.
So I've worked with people whoare they don't even know what
they are, they're just they runon trauma and their sexual
connections are all traumarelated and they're impulsive
and they're dangerous andthey're not aligned with their
(32:06):
values, right?
To me, that is addiction, right?
SPEAKER_01 (32:10):
And that's what I mean.
SPEAKER_02 (32:11):
And that the very least, yeah, at the very least,
it's an extreme trauma responsethat is often never addressed.
SPEAKER_01 (32:19):
And that's what I mean.
I mean, I you know, there's acase in Massachusetts, um, and
I'm not gonna go into too muchdetail, but this was the power
over women that caused, youknow, a big strife to the point
where that woman committedsuicide and died.
And the police officers had usedthat power all that time.
And I'm not gonna go into toomany details uh because not that
(32:42):
I'm involved in the case, I justdon't want to go into details.
But the point is that even theaddiction of the power over sex
over everything else is alsopart of the issue, you know, and
how many first responders andmilitary military is guilty in
my opinion.
How many of them have gamblingdebt from sports Benny?
SPEAKER_02 (33:02):
You know, that's right, that's right.
Which is it it destroys entirefamilies, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:09):
So that makes sense.
Right?
Hey, you're not doing you're notdoing fentanyl, you're just
gambling on ping pong in Koreathat you know nothing about.
SPEAKER_02 (33:18):
But lying about it and taking family income to do
it, and then losing your spouse.
So I guess if we look ataddictions like negative
consequences that go against ourvalues that we can't stop, that
lead to other loss and moretrauma, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:33):
I mean, I I argue with my first responders who do
details, who do extra work.
I said that's an addiction.
So if you do one in a while,that's great.
But if you're addicted to themoney and that, you are part of
the issue, and that's gonnacause you because when it dries
up or you don't have thecapacity, you're not gonna be
(33:54):
able to keep that lifestyle, andthen you're gonna be hard on
yourself, and there's gonna benegative consequences to that.
SPEAKER_02 (33:59):
Makes sense to me.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
So I think that that's why, like, for me, trauma
is all over the place.
I think that one of uh one of myother guests says grief is the
root of all mental healthissues.
I would argue that grief andtrauma are both.
SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
I think they go together.
It's why I've always beenfascinated and so interested in
helping people with both, right?
Because our grief is directlyimpacted by our trauma, because
the way we view the world isdirectly impacted by our trauma.
And so if one person loses achild and their general belief
about the world is that it'shorrific, that nothing is fair,
(34:36):
that you know everything is bad,is going to happen to them,
that's gonna impact theiralready devastation about losing
their child on a it validates aworldview that treating that is
very different than treatingsomeone who had horrifically
lost a child that has agenerally positive worldview
because they didn't have trauma.
And it doesn't mean that they'renot both in excruciating pain,
(34:59):
but one is on pain on top ofpain, and one is on pain, but
able to navigate it without allthese underlying beliefs about
life, right?
And so they have to be addressedat the same time, especially for
people with trauma because theirgrief is often affected by that
negative worldview.
SPEAKER_01 (35:15):
I couldn't agree more, and I think that's it's
one of the other stigmas I findis that grief.
I was actually talking to aformer police officer on on the
way to work today, and it's beentwo weeks, you're good, right?
And like grief has some sort oflike magical date that it's
gonna be, you know, or dealtwith.
(35:36):
And I think that that happens alot with the military and the
first responder world, right?
And it's really, I think whenyou think about grief, I mean,
you're you I'm I don't I hate tosay the expert, but the expert
with me about this.
Is there really an end date togrief?
SPEAKER_02 (35:54):
There's not an end date to grief, but there's an
end date to acute grief andliving in it 24-7 if you're
willing to take certain steps.
SPEAKER_01 (36:02):
What do you mean?
SPEAKER_02 (36:03):
Just like everything else, like you know, there are
people who go through massiveloss that literally never move
forward from that point.
And then there's people who gothrough massive loss that do the
work that they didn't ask tohave to do to make sense of that
loss, to find peace with theloss.
You always know that loss ispresent, but you can have a
(36:23):
fully embodied life without thatperson, it just might not look
the same as it did before.
SPEAKER_01 (36:31):
No, I and I agree, but I want to put it in more
even layman terms.
So you're telling me acute griefdoesn't have a time process, it
has to do with talking about it.
That's really what it is.
It's not a two-week, two-month,two-year project.
SPEAKER_02 (36:45):
No, no, no.
No, it could take many, many,many years, right?
And also, it's not just talkingabout it, it's it's having
evidence-based tools, it'shaving processes, it's having
skills, it's having the rightkind of authentic support.
It's being exposed to otherpeople who can understand,
right?
It's so many different things.
Because, like one of my clientsat yesterday, um, who lost a
(37:08):
child, this person, for allintents and purposes, had a very
idyllic life before that.
And what happened as a resultwas being othered, right?
But also a lot of changes forthe better happened as well.
More empathy, more connection inreal ways.
And so that person is nevergoing to be the same.
(37:28):
But that might not be a badthing because loss can inform us
as human beings, it can help usbecome a better version of
ourselves, or it can help usbecome a bitter, angry, shut
down.
And that's true of almost alllife challenges.
So, you know, it's it's justlike trauma.
Grief is that thing where youdidn't cause it, it's not your
(37:53):
fault, but if you don't dealwith it, it's going to destroy
your life.
SPEAKER_01 (37:57):
Right.
You know, that's a good point,Blight.
And I really appreciate it, andI think it makes perfect sense
to me.
But as we wrap up here, youknow, one of the things I want
to say about grief from myperspective, if you ever doubt
that grief is a positive thing,grief is the reason why I'm here
today and doing treatment andbecause of that's powerful.
(38:19):
Losing my best friend at 12.
And, you know, I'm share alittle more here.
He was Jewish, so I wasn't, Idon't know what the hell was
going on in the 80s, but I wasnot allowed to go to the
funeral.
He died in a fire tragically,holding his brother.
And and my parents, for betteror for worse, said, you know,
that sucks, but that meansyou're gonna play harder in the
(38:39):
game and play football togetherand soccer because he won't be
there.
And that was my grief process.
I don't blame anyone.
I do not blame anyone.
SPEAKER_02 (38:47):
No, but it just hurts me for little Steve, you
know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01 (38:50):
Yeah, and I've compassion for him, but because
of that grief, you know,eventually I got it out, I
worked with it, and I stillsometimes process it.
It's not completely over, it'sno longer acute, which is good.
But I tell people that, youknow, I never wanted a human
being to ever be alone in thatway.
SPEAKER_02 (39:07):
And that's what drives you.
That's so that loss is yourpurpose, right?
Your friend is your purpose, butalso your loneliness is your
purpose.
And that I think that's apowerful testimony to the
importance of finding somethingwithin your pain that can lead
to some meaning derivement,right?
That's really thank you forsharing that.
(39:27):
And I've known you for a longtime, and I didn't know that
story.
SPEAKER_01 (39:30):
Well, you know, the the secrecy and the privacy of a
lot.
Sorry, I feel like I'm talkingabout me, but we'll come back.
SPEAKER_02 (39:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (39:38):
When I wrote my book, I wrote that whole story.
And it happened when I was 12 inQuebec.
I'm not gonna bore you too long,but we transferred to high
school when we're 12.
So I just had started at highschool.
SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
You did write that.
You're right.
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (39:51):
And when I when I transferred to that high school,
they don't know my friend, theydidn't know my football life and
all that.
And he died that September,Labor Day.
SPEAKER_02 (40:00):
I remember this now from your book.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (40:03):
My friends, after they read the book, they're
like, I feel a little hurt.
And I said, My friends have 30something years.
And I said, Why is that?
You never mentioned A V once tome.
And I'd never mention it to myfriend.
That's how secret I kept thatpain.
Steve.
No, but that's what I mean aboutno.
I want to use this as a good wayfor people to hear.
(40:24):
We need to open up about thisstuff.
SPEAKER_02 (40:26):
No, no, I know.
I just, you know, I I think it'spowerful that you were able to
take that from your friends too,and to hear like it actually
hurt them to not know about whatyou were going through, which we
don't.
I think when we hide away ourpain, we fear being a burden, or
we fear no one's gonna be there,or we fear someone will minimize
it, because they did, right?
(40:46):
And so uh that's a powerful.
I love that you're I love yourstory of transformation.
And you did share that before,but you just have never shared
it with me in person.
And my aging mind is is obvious,right?
So, you know, I think it's apowerful story, and I love that
you're able to share it here aswell.
(41:07):
I think it'll help somebody.
I really do.
SPEAKER_01 (41:10):
I think that that's where we cross the secrecy and
privacy line.
And this is what I think firstresponders and military
personnel always have tounderstand is that we're not
immune to trauma, not immune toour own laws, and we have our
own stories that sometimes we'reashamed.
And then when we say it outloud, I'm like, why was I
ashamed of that?
Because I put it on myself.
So being able to remove thesecrecy of it is so important
(41:32):
for them to be able to open up.
And I'm not saying, like, youknow, if I was shot at, I've
never been shot at, thankfully.
But if I was shot at and I gointo great detail about being
shot at in session, that'sprobably not appropriate.
That's not good disclosure.
SPEAKER_02 (41:45):
No, that's bad disclosure.
SPEAKER_01 (41:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But being shot at and explaininghow it felt and this and that,
and going just and say, is thathow you felt, or did you feel
something else?
Now suddenly, like, oh shit, hecan relate.
SPEAKER_02 (41:56):
And that's good explaining, yeah, that's good,
that's good um sharing.
I agree.
And what you just shared is verypowerful sharing.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:05):
I I'm 50 now.
I don't care.
I don't know if that's a goodthing or a bad thing.
SPEAKER_02 (42:09):
But something really, I don't know if it's
like, you know, we have thesedevelopmental milestones even as
we get older.
And something really does changewhen you when you hear the
number 50, right?
You're just like, what am Idoing?
Like, what am I what is mypurpose, and why do I care so
much?
Because I don't anymore.
You know what I mean?
It really does shift.
SPEAKER_01 (42:29):
You know, it I remember a time where, you know,
and this happens also, I think,in our world in other worlds,
but you know, I was not sexuallyattracted, but attracted to
people with power, attractedwith people who could help me,
attracted to people who are goodlooking, and that happened too.
And I realized, like, that's allbullshit.
(42:50):
Because it doesn't matter, allthat is that what it like, what
do I need?
Because it doesn't matter ifthey put me under their wing or
whatever, it's important what Ineed.
And yeah, I started out a littleearlier, but I think that
there's something that happenedwhen I turned 50 that I truly at
this point I'm like, are we onthe same page or not?
And if we're not, that's okay.
(43:11):
Shake hands, move on.
I don't have time to try toplease people anymore.
SPEAKER_02 (43:15):
Yeah, I get that.
I really do get that.
You're such a great person,Steve.
I'm so glad we know each otherand we're friends, and I'm so
glad we've worked togetherthroughout the years.
Really, I love what you'redoing.
I love that your set yourpodcast is on this episode, and
I haven't been on it in likeseveral hundred, almost a couple
hundred, right?
And so I just think it's it'sreally cool what you're doing.
(43:38):
Really.
SPEAKER_01 (43:39):
Well, from the bottom of my heart, I think we
we always touched the surface.
We didn't even talk about thetrauma of the collective and as
well as the work trauma.
SPEAKER_02 (43:47):
We're gonna have to do a part two.
SPEAKER_01 (43:49):
I I just want you back.
The one thing I'm gonna say toyou, and I commit to this on a
podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (43:54):
Uh-oh.
SPEAKER_01 (43:56):
I gotta go down to Pennsylvania.
Come see me, and I'd love to seeyou because that's the other
part too, which is what I loveabout our friendships.
Our friendship has never beenabout being close, it's about
being close and extremelydistance.
SPEAKER_02 (44:11):
Yeah.
All right, I'm gonna hold you tothat.
I want you here in Pittsburgh.
SPEAKER_01 (44:15):
It's recorded uh here, um, so I can't change
that.
But I need to go to Pittsburgh.
I've never been to Pittsburgh.
SPEAKER_02 (44:21):
Oh, you'd love it.
It's great.
It's no Massachusetts, but it'sit's great in its own way.
It's got, you know what youwould love about Pittsburgh?
It's got grit, and you've gotgrit.
SPEAKER_01 (44:30):
But that's what I that's exactly like.
I have two clients fromPittsburgh originally.
SPEAKER_02 (44:35):
They're kind of rough around the edges.
SPEAKER_01 (44:37):
They're my people.
SPEAKER_02 (44:38):
Yeah, they're they're direct, they're gritty,
and they're very, very welcome.
SPEAKER_01 (44:43):
And they will they will give the shirt off their
back if you ask them.
SPEAKER_02 (44:46):
It's true.
Yeah.
All right, well, we're gonna getthat planned.
This is awesome today.
SPEAKER_01 (44:51):
I will I know this this, you know, this this
podcast comes out at the end ofOctober, but I I I I pledged
that by 2026.
By the end of 2026, I will havebeen to Pittsburgh.
I will have and again, I don'tthink I need to say that for
you.
I'm saying it for the audience.
And with your consent, I willhug you because I really want to
(45:12):
meet you.
SPEAKER_02 (45:12):
Yeah, of course.
Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (45:15):
But I think it's for the podcast, but I didn't think
that you were opposed to that.
Uh but I and then just speak andbe with each other, have a
coffee.
We've never done that.
And I would love it.
And I think that that's what I Ithink we should end on, and not
only having you back on theshow, but also I'm committing to
(45:35):
it.
I'm 100% committing to go toPittsburgh to see you.
SPEAKER_02 (45:38):
All right, I can't wait.
SPEAKER_01 (45:39):
I'll be here.
Well, you know, how do we reachyou, Blight, before we hang up
here?
SPEAKER_02 (45:45):
You can find me on Instagram at Blightlandry Coach,
right?
You can find my website,Blythlandry.com.
The name of my program uh thatis for people who want to be
certified grief coaches thathave gone through grief is grief
to purpose.
The new website is going to belaunched imminently, so it'll be
grieftopurpose.net, right?
(46:07):
And um yeah, I'm also onFacebook as Blythe Landry, so
I'm everywhere.
SPEAKER_01 (46:12):
And and you don't need need to have a master's to
go do your your program on griefcoaching, do we?
SPEAKER_02 (46:18):
No, this program is for grievers.
That's what I'm looking for.
I'm looking for people who'vegone through real loss, who are
willing to continue to workthrough that loss, even if
they've been working on it for along time.
We want to connect to otherpeople in small community who
are grievers and who want to doexactly what Steve did, which is
find a way to create some typeof purpose, whether that means
(46:40):
going out and being a griefcoach yourself, doing it as a
career, doing it as a volunteer,doing nonprofit, doing stuff in
your church, community, whateverit is for you.
One of the things I'm most proudof is not only are our students,
people I would call likeunicorns because they're walking
around thinking about this kindof stuff, 99% of our students
(47:00):
have no experience ever doingthis.
They want the trauma-informedpart that we offer, and they
they find that through thisprogram, they're getting more
healing than they've ever got,even if they've been working on
their grief for a long time,exactly because of what Steve
said.
They're finding a way to createmeaning.
Even, you know, it's that VictorFrankel thing, right?
The only difference between usand every other living thing is
(47:20):
our ability to create meaning.
And so if we choose that path,whether it's real, made up, or
whatever, it works.
So yeah.
And I want to be considered forthat program, you just reach out
to me, we'll set up a call andsee if it's a good fit.
SPEAKER_01 (47:35):
I want to mention that for two reasons.
Number one, therapists can join,obviously, very good people, but
I want to make sure, based onwho listens to this podcast, I
want my peer support people whowork in departments across the
country to know that they canjoin this and being informed and
they can bring it back to peersupport because again, that's
(47:55):
perfect.
SPEAKER_02 (47:56):
Absolutely.
We've had people's companieseven pay for them to do this.
We've had we've had a lot ofreally cool things happen.
The peer support people areperfect for this community.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01 (48:06):
I'm sending that out to my peeps and the uh the
emergency responder, firstresponder, depending on who
you'd mean.
But that's who I send it out.
You know, again, I vouch for itpersonally.
And you know me, you've listenedif you've listened to 228
episodes.
I've promoted you know, twothings ever as a commercial.
(48:28):
I would do 14 commercials forBlight, and it wouldn't be
enough because that's how much Ibelieve in this program.
And that's why peersparticularly should go there
because sometimes hearing metalk about grief as a therapist
that's helpful, but apeer-to-peer that's strong.
That's like, you know.
SPEAKER_02 (48:44):
That's what I always say.
This is not about me, it's aboutthe community of people that are
supporting each other, and it'samazing.
And all of our coaches aregraduates of the program, and
all of our coaches that run thecalls.
I've removed myself from thecenter.
They're all peers, they're allpeople who have gone through
catastrophic loss and learned todo this work.
So awesome.
Well, it's been great, and Ican't wait to give you a hug in
(49:05):
person, Steve.
SPEAKER_01 (49:06):
Well, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna hold you to
coming back, number one.
Number two, I'm coming.
SPEAKER_02 (49:17):
Talking, yeah, I know.
We'll get into some trouble withall our ideas.
SPEAKER_01 (49:21):
And please please go find Blight, go do this program.
It's amazing.
I'm I I don't endorse itlightly.
I endorse it because I mean it.
And um, and if not, if you justwant to read about stuff, Trauma
Intelligence is a great bookthat's really reachable.
It's not made for professionals,and I mean that professionals
can get something out of it,don't get me wrong.
(49:42):
But because it's not made forprofessionals, it's available to
everyone.
And I really encourage people toalso grab your book.
So um thank you so much, Steve.
I'll I'll uh I'll send you mybill for all these plugs.
I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_02 (49:53):
I know, I'm ready.
SPEAKER_01 (49:55):
Um, but anyway, um, from the bottom of my heart, you
know I love you, but I'll say itanyway.
I love you.
I really love you.
I love me too.
SPEAKER_02 (50:02):
Yeah, same.
SPEAKER_01 (50:03):
And then uh for those of you who are listening
to the podcast still after thislove fest, uh, please join us
for episode 229, and I'll seeyou then.
SPEAKER_00 (50:14):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(50:38):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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