November 7, 2025 • 34 mins
The hardest part isn’t the call. It’s what your body and mind carry after the sirens fade. We go straight at the myth that strength means silence, and trade it for a practical blueprint to complete the stress cycle, name emotions without fancy language, and rebuild trust through honest conversation.
Stephanie Simpson continues to share simple, fast tools first responders can use to process stress on and off scene. We break down why compartmentalizing is necessary in the moment but corrosive if it becomes a lifestyle, and how two-minute rituals—like shaking out the limbs, breath-led resets, or a quick run—help your nervous system return to baseline. When words are hard, we turn to creativity: playlists that mirror your mood, drawing the shape and color of tension, and short journaling bursts that expand emotional vocabulary over time. These practices aren’t woo; they are physiology and practicality for police, fire, EMS, dispatch, and anyone supporting them.
We also dig into the social side of resilience. Isolation plus workouts can numb; venting without boundaries can spiral. The solution is blending self-soothing with smart connection: candid debriefs, dark humor in safe rooms, and mentors who normalize not knowing. Stephanie explains how coaching pairs with therapy to create forward action, using energy leadership to help you lead your life with intention. For leaders and rookies alike, vulnerability becomes a performance advantage—fewer avoidable errors, tighter teams, and a lighter hidden load.
If you’re ready to replace “I’m fine” with tools that actually work, hit play. Then share this with your crew, subscribe for more conversations like this, and leave a review to help other first responders find these resources. Got a post-shift ritual that helps you reset? Tell us—we want to hear what works on your line.
You can reach Stephanie the following ways:
Website - www.stephanie-simpson.com
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniesimpsoncoaching/
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/stephaniesimpsoncoaching/
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/StephanieSimpsonCoaching
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:01):
You're listening to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
We're here to strengthen firstresponder mental health,
supporting police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics as
they build resilience and thrivein high-stress careers.
SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
Let's dive in.ai.
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And I highly encourage you to doso.
Welcome.
And this is the part two episodeof episode 229.
(01:59):
Stephanie Simpson, go listen tothe one on Wednesday so you can
get her name and everythingelse.
Because we're in the middle of agreat conversation here.
Uh, because we really turned tostress and trauma and how to
deal with it.
We talked about emotions, but wewent into stress and trauma.
And you talked about yourexperience of teaching future
first responders, which Ireally, really appreciate.
(02:20):
One of the things that the firstthing that comes to mind is this
if I dispose if I displaystress, I'm obviously weak.
What do you say to that?
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
Can I answer this in a different way?
Because talking about mystudents, so one of the first
weeks, I think it's the secondweek, I have them do a
discussion board post where theytalk about like what they think
their current relationship withstress is.
And when I read those, there'salways, always a handful, if not
(02:51):
more, people that say, oh, I'mreally good.
Like I don't really have a lotof stress in my life.
Like I'm really good at dealingwith stress.
And that to me is always ading-ding-ding.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
Correct.
SPEAKER_02 (03:00):
Because I'm like, oh you, there's something like you,
you either have not actuallyacknowledged what the actual
stressors are and you're nowjust avoiding everything, or you
actually don't understand whatstress really is, which to be
honest, most people don't.
That's like first most peopleactually don't know what stress
is.
So that's the first part of thesemester is like, let's get
(03:23):
really clear on what stress isand is not, and like the
different layers and like whatwe're calling things and what's
actually happening in the body,what's happening hormonally, all
of that.
And then it's as we go throughthe semester checking in with
those people where they're like,oh, actually, yeah, like I don't
deal with emotions at all, or Ijust, you know, whatever it may
be.
(03:43):
So that's always a reallyinteresting in like indication
to me when someone sayssomething like that.
I will say I feel like it tendsto be, I don't know, there's
there's actually a lot offactors.
I wouldn't say it's always maleor female.
I do think it tends to skew alittle male, but there's also
cultural things around it, likeand so many other things, and
(04:04):
and culture can mean a lot ofthings.
It can mean, you know, theculture of the work environment
that you're in and all of that.
And and with first responders,one of the things that I've
noticed is like, in order to begood at your job, you actually
do need to know how to likecompartmentalize and like shut
down certain aspects.
Like that is actually necessaryin order to be effective in the
(04:27):
job.
And the other aspect of it islike, but then where are you
putting all of that afterwards?
Because it's not sustainable tocontinue to compartmentalize and
because that's actually going tobe a problem down the line.
So I think about like animals,like certain animals, when they
go through the stress cycle,right?
(04:49):
They do their stress thingbecause they need to get to
safety.
And then afterwards, theyliterally convulse and shake it
all out so that the actualstress hormones and everything
like that leave their body.
So then they can go on andprance around or whatever they
do, you know, their daily life.
But us as humans, we haven'tbeen taught how to do that.
And so in we don't ever, Ishouldn't say we don't ever, but
(05:11):
a lot of us don't actually getto the shakeout part of it so
that we come back to a regulatedplace.
We just are continuouslyreactivating ourselves and then
shutting down to do the thingand then reactivating ourselves.
And so that over time is itliterally is not sustainable.
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
There's so many things you just said that I
really want to react to.
I want to give you the um thewhole shaking thing.
I remember you talking about inthe previous podcast with
Courtney from Manowski, our oursometimes co-host here on
resilience development inaction.
We were talking about literallyshake it off, Steve.
And I remember, and again, youknow how much I love Courtney,
(05:53):
you know how much I love you.
And I'm like, yeah, whatever.
The first time I did, I'm like,holy crap, this works.
And I tell you right now thatthere's days where if I had a
hard session with someone, Iclose the door and I shake it
off, and people are like,Really?
I'm like, yeah, shake,literally, shake my body.
And for some reason it reallygrounds me.
(06:14):
And I think that there'sprobably some biological
explanation to that.
But it's a good advice that Igive to some of my guys and gals
that I work with because youliterally got to go like go in
the other room, shake it offliterally for a minute or two.
And if it's only twice, it'stwice.
Who cares?
But it will reground you.
So I want to share that as notonly did you make an impact on
me and Courtney made an impacton me, I usually use it, and
(06:37):
some of my guys and gals haveheard it.
SPEAKER_02 (06:39):
I love that.
I love that.
And there is a biological thing,and it's it's well, because
you're moving things around inthe body, right?
And another interesting thingthat typically this is kind of
more of a gendered thing, is mentend to like isolate and then
like go work out or something.
And like, and that's fine.
Like the working out part isreally great.
(07:01):
The isolation, not so great,right?
Women tend to tend and befriend,so they immediately go to a
bunch of people and share theirthing and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, which also canbe really great because you're
getting that connection and thatsocial support.
It also can not be so greatdepending on who you're sharing
with, because they can actuallylayer on and then create more
(07:22):
stress, right?
And so what I like to share withany of my clients, but also my
students, is like, how are youdoing a both and like how are
you learning how to self-soothe?
And how are you literallyshaking or going to the gym or
I'm a runner?
So like going for a run orwhatever you might do, right?
To physically get out, thoughalso how are you connecting with
(07:42):
people who can be that supportfor you?
But doing a both and, because wedo need all of that, and doing
an extreme of one or the otheris also not going to be super
helpful.
SPEAKER_00 (07:55):
Well, I was gonna piggyback on what you just said.
No, it's not sexist or anythingelse.
But the truth is, men do that,women do that.
And to me, one of the thingsthat I find is with men in
particular, they really go intoall or nothing brain.
I work out, I'm fine.
No, you're not.
You're still a little fucked up,but you need to address that.
(08:17):
And then with women, is they gowhat I call kibbutzing with
other people.
And now suddenly they bring up,oh, did you think about this?
And now suddenly your anxietygoes even higher because you
shared your feelings.
Um call me sexist, I'm finewrite me, write me bad things
too.
I'm okay with that.
But I think I'm fairly accurate.
And I didn't say every man, Ididn't say every woman.
(08:38):
I'm just saying a generalstatement that's probably
accurate.
I think that it's important topoint out those differences of
communication because that's howwe're gonna deal with stress and
trauma appropriately.
I'm an emotional guy.
I have no problem saying that Iam.
But when my clients are openingup about stuff, I don't kind of
like break down.
I'm able to handle it.
But I also, my daughters andwill tell you, oh, he's a big
(08:59):
emotional ball.
Uh, and I'm okay with themthinking that if that's the
worst they could ever say aboutme, I'll let myself.
But I think that the bringingback a little bit to the stress
and the trauma, one of thethings you also mentioned is,
you know, dealing with it on aregular basis with your emotions
and acknowledging.
Sometimes people don't know howto put it in words.
I mean, it's easy to talk aboutcertain things, but like the
(09:22):
words are very difficult.
So like right now, I'm trying toformulate a good question that I
can't formulate, but I'macknowledging that I'm having
trouble.
But it it's really explaininglike when you've never had uh
acknowledgement of fear, you'renot able to talk about fear.
I had a client today who came inand said, Oh, I don't have any
anxiety, I said, So you're dead.
(09:45):
And they laughed exactly likethat.
And I'm like, No, we haveanxiety, you just don't like to
talk about it.
SPEAKER_02 (09:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
So how do we explain people?
Like, I I hate definitions, andwhat I mean by that is if I ask
Stephanie what the definition ofsadness is, they'll probably be
similar yet a little differentthan mine.
And both are valid.
That doesn't mean one's betterthan the other, it just means
it's different.
So, how do we help peopleidentify those emotions when
it's hard to put in in words,period?
SPEAKER_02 (10:11):
I fully agree with that, and I'm gonna share my
thoughts, also knowing theaudience that this might be a
little out there.
But um, to me, that's where someof like the arts come in.
Cause at the end of the day, weare all creative beings, like we
just are.
And whether people considerthemselves spiritual, religious,
(10:32):
or not, like being a wholeperson, creativity is part of
that.
I do believe that like the artsworld has somewhat like made it
be that like in order to becreative, you have to be
talented.
And I want to be very clear thatthose in my world are separate.
Everyone is creative.
That does not necessarily meanthat you need to be a talented
dancer, artist, singer, orwhatever, but we all are
(10:54):
creative beings becausecreativity is self-expression,
right?
So I typically find with clientsthat that there is something.
There is something that theyenjoy doing, whether that's
cooking, whether that isdecorating, whether that is
drawing or writing poetry or umsinging or dancing or whatever
(11:18):
it may be, there is some waythat they like to express
themselves, right?
And so when I can figure outwhat that is with a client, then
it's moving in that directionwith them, right?
And and finding a way to, ifit's music, right?
It doesn't need to be like I'm asinger, but if it's music, it's
like, great, what's like createa playlist that is a bunch of
(11:41):
songs that's representative ofhow you're feeling right now.
And then they're creating thatplaylist.
And then we like listen to theplaylist.
And then it's like, okay, whatis it about these songs that
you're getting connected to?
Cause then I think the challengesometimes for people, myself
included, is like, it's like,what am I?
I don't know.
I can't express it, blah, blah,blah.
But there are these other thingsout there that are resonating
(12:02):
with us.
So if it's a song, it's like,okay, well, what about this
song?
And it's like, well, I reallylove this one lyric.
And then I love how like thedrum comes in here, and then I
love how this happens.
Cool.
Well, now we can talk about themand through them and through me
being trained how to listen topeople and ask questions, all of
a sudden we're starting tounearth what the actual feelings
(12:22):
are, right?
Or drawing or, you know,shaping.
I mentioned in the part one ofthis of I do a lot of work where
I'll ask people like, where areyou feeling a sensation in your
body?
And if they're like, I don'tknow what that means, I'll be
like, where are you feelingtightness in your body?
Right.
Right.
Because that's what stress doesis it creates a tightness,
right?
So it's like whether that's myshoulder or my stomach or my
(12:44):
back.
And then I go, great.
Now, if this was the shape, whatshape is that tightness?
What color is it?
What is this?
What is that?
Blah, blah, blah.
So again, we're, we're, we'recreating distance from it,
right?
And then from there, I'll startsaying, like, well, when you're
looking at this, like what typeof emotions might be coming up?
(13:05):
Or what are you thinking whenthis comes up?
I think that's one, these aredifferent ways to get into it.
Again, I think the theme of allof it is how can we, how can we
get distance from it?
That it's not uh, it's not me,it's this other thing, because I
do think we as human beings arereally good at analyzing other
(13:26):
things.
Um, but when it comes toourselves, that's more
challenging.
So that's kind of how I workwith it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:33):
I think that it's a great way to break because music
is international.
I mean, I tell people that yougo to the most urban person
place in the world versus themost isolated jungle tribe that
you can possibly imagine.
You know what they all have incommon?
Music.
And so music tells a whole lotin, you know, in in America or
(13:54):
the Western culture, I shouldsay.
I always remind people if youlisten to a certain type of
music, there's gotta besomething about it that has an
emotional attachment to it.
SPEAKER_01 (14:02):
Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
So I talk about that.
So it's not woo-woo, if you askme, and to bring back even my
first responder people, if theykind of didn't get it, let me
explain it very differently.
When you go get a call and theysay, All right, unresponsive uh
person would a pulse ifsomeone's on scene to open the
door.
What's your first thought thathappened?
(14:25):
Well, they create 17 differentscenarios, including the worst
case scenario.
I said, so therefore you arecreative.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:33):
You just wrote 17 episodes of a TV show.
SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
And you get there and turns out the person was
just passed out and got up, andthey're fine, and they just need
a quick medical before they goaway.
It could have been also a scenewhere there was poison.
Um you never know.
But you create all thesescenarios in order to make
yourself safe, and that'screativeness.
Learning to be creative aboutyourself, whether it's through
music or supporting each other.
(14:57):
And yes, for those who go to mygroup, thank you very much.
Yes, journaling.
We we all joke around, but mostof them privately have told me
that they've journaled and theyfind it very helpful.
SPEAKER_02 (15:09):
You know, I want to just give a shout out to this
too, because uh, in addition toteaching a stress management
class at John Jay, I also teacha yoga class.
Um and many of the people takeyoga not because they want to,
but because it's one credit andthey're like, oh crap, I need a
credit to graduate, right?
So I get a lot of differenttypes of students coming into
this, most of them not wantingto be a yogi, right?
(15:33):
And I'm very clear with them upfront that I'm like, I also did
not like yoga for many years.
And every time it came into mylife, I was like, hell no,
absolutely not in all of this.
And then all of a sudden it cameinto my life at another point
where it clicked and it workedand like has now become a big
part of my life for the lastover a decade.
In the way that I teach thisyoga class now, it's a
(15:54):
three-hour course because we seeeach other once a week for just
three hours.
We do the like physicalpractice, which is the asana
practice at the beginning.
But then we do, we also actuallystart with a community question.
So everyone has to answer thisquestion in small groups and
everything.
So we're learning how to listenand talk to each other.
And they're fun things like ifyou were an ingredient of a
salad, what would you be andwhy?
(16:15):
And like fun things like that,which is also getting people to
think creatively.
But then after break, we do, weread what's called the Yoga
Sutras and then they journal.
And I, and many of them at thebeginning were like, I hate
journaling.
I don't want to journal, blah,blah, blah.
And I'm like, totally, that'sunderstandable.
(16:35):
And I'm going, it's anexpectation of this class.
You don't have to actuallyanswer the questions I'm asking
you to journal.
Like, but I do need you to spendthe next 10 minutes, and we
always do 10 minutes writing.
If that means you want to drawinstead of write, if it's random
words, I'm okay with that.
You're never gonna hand it in tome.
And then you're gonna get intosmall groups and you're gonna
discuss what came up.
(16:56):
And over the last few weeks,because we're like halfway
through the semester now, Icannot tell you how many of them
were like, I really hatedjournaling, but this has
actually been really refreshingand it's been really
interesting.
And I just have never thought topause and think about some of
these questions you're asking usto think about, and then to be
(17:16):
able to share with other people.
And the biggest takeaway, andthis is the thing that like
warms my heart the most, is thatthey all go at every at the end
of every class and in the stressmanagement class too, because we
do a lot of like reflecting,sharing with a small group, then
big group, is they all then say,it feels really good to know
that I'm not the only onethinking and feeling this way.
(17:37):
It feels really good to knowthat like I'm not the only one
struggling with X, Y, and Z.
It feels really good to knowthat like all these like wild
thoughts that I have that stopme from doing the thing that I
want to do or like saying hi tothe person over there, whatever
is like universal.
And going back to like what Isaid in the first episode about
(18:01):
like what really drew me todoing this work was how do we
create these spaces where peoplefeel more supported?
I don't use the word comfortablebecause we're not always
comfortable in these spaces, buthow do we feel supported to be
able to get some of this stuffout and up and out and then
connect with other people?
Because if we're not doing that,like we're all doomed, to be
(18:25):
honest, right?
And it's it is such, I mean,that in itself is they leave the
classes feeling better becausethey've connected with other
people in a way that was real.
There's definitely somevulnerability in there, but
they're allowed to share totheir own comfort level.
And and that, like that to me,I'm just like, how do we get
more spaces like that foreverybody?
SPEAKER_00 (18:47):
Right.
And I think that, you know, Iwas right wrote down, I can't
remember which academy aroundhere says this, but one of the
first lessons is be comfortablewith being uncomfortable.
And I think that that's goes fora lot of my first responders.
But I think in general, evenwriting for myself and my
journal or anything else, Igotta be uncomfortable to write
some stuff and be okay with thatbecause it will get comfortable
(19:09):
eventually until it's not, andthat's okay too.
And being able to do that is soimportant.
So I like your message there.
But more importantly, I thinkthat I have a group that I run
with first responders only.
And most of the guys who come inand gals who come in are like,
oh, I'm so not alone that peoplethink like me.
And that's usually the firstmessage.
The other part that I think isuh helpful for them too is they
(19:32):
get to have their veryuncomfortable gallows humor,
dark humor, whatever the hellyou want to call it.
And everyone laughs and they'relike, Oh, so I'm not only alone,
I can feel this way, and it'snatural.
I think that that's the keybecause we try to abnormalize
ourselves constantly.
And you talk about our innervoice, we get uncomfortable with
ourselves, but then we want tonormalize it by squashing it the
(19:55):
hardest we can, which is reallyscrewy, if you ask me.
SPEAKER_02 (19:59):
Yeah, and then we're not we're not being our
authentic self, which thencreates another type of internal
distress, which is the badstress, right?
Because then it's like, I don'tget to be me.
And and then it that's not goodeither.
And so it's like, how do we findthe spaces where we get to be
our whole selves and supportedto doing that?
(20:21):
And then, and I mean, I will saythis too, is like it's really
vulnerable to be your whole selfin front of people.
So yeah, I just will name thatit it can be really scary.
SPEAKER_00 (20:32):
Well, I think that it's not about being your whole
self, honestly.
I think it's about people whodon't want to hear certain
things.
I think being ourselves is notis not hard per se.
But when I have to say, hey,listen, I don't know the answer
to your therapy question, butI'll look into it.
That's super vulnerable andthat's difficult because I'm
supposed to be quote, theexpert.
(20:53):
Look at all my website, by theway, and everything else.
Expert never shows up in mynotes because I don't believe in
that.
But that's the vulnerabilitythat's hard.
If Steph called me and washaving a hard time, sometimes I
won't know what to say.
And now I gotta be, oh my God, Itold her she could call.
No, you don't need to be thatbeing truthful about yourself is
saying, Steph, I wish I had theright words for you, I just
(21:14):
don't.
And that's vulnerable to saybecause that makes you feel
like, oh my god, what's gonnahappen?
Is that gonna break therelationship or not?
Fact of the matter is people aremuch more comforted by truth
than they are about anall-knowing human being.
I think that that's one of theroles we end up playing in our
lives privately and in uh in ourjob.
(21:35):
And that's why I tell peoplelike, you don't know everything,
and that's okay.
There's nothing wrong with that.
And I think that's part of thevulnerability that people don't
want to display.
SPEAKER_02 (21:42):
I yeah, I love that.
It yes, because even inleadership, and I do a lot of
work on like leadershipdevelopment and like coaching
like executives, that isactually the narrative that
we're trying to shift a lot, isthat just because you're a CEO
or a C-suite level doesn't meanyou're the expert.
And actually that's not going tohelp you continue to be
(22:03):
successful.
Like, how can you say, I don'tknow, but let's find out
together or let me go askquestions or whatever.
That, but that's a veryvulnerable thing.
And it reminds me of like, Idon't remember the question you
fully asked about stress at thebeginning of this section, but
you were like, what would yousay if someone was like, oh,
stressed?
I forget how it was, but it wasthat it's a similar sort of
(22:25):
thing of like saying, like,yeah, I'm gonna have stress and
I actually don't know how tohandle it all the time, but I'm
working on it.
That must feel very vulnerable,right?
And also for all of us, it'sactually the truth, right?
Like we all are trying, becausejust I try to remind people too
is like the thing that stressedyou out today might happen again
(22:45):
tomorrow, but tomorrow you'reshowing up a little differently
than you were today.
So the way that you dealt withit today may be different and
needs to be different tomorrow.
You actually don't, you're it'slike work in progress all the
time, which can feel veryvulnerable because it also means
you don't have a lot of control.
And so saying I don't know isactually saying, like, I don't
(23:07):
know, and I don't have controlover how this is gonna go, but
I'm okay with figuring it outwith you.
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
And I think that that's that's where I've learned
to be more vulnerable, so tospeak, in my life.
Because you know what how muchpressure it took off me?
Because when you got to be anall-knowing fire uh freaking
person is exhaust exhaust,exhausting.
So exhaust you know, like and Ithink that that's one of the
(23:32):
other things about firstresponders, and I think even
your C-suite people have all thetime.
You gotta be all knowing, butthen you carry the stress, like,
I don't know what I fucking justsaid, and I feel like in a mute,
and like I didn't mean what Imeant, and I didn't mean what I
said or whatever.
And I'm like, that's why youneed to be able to be vulnerable
and say what you don't know,because that's strong.
You're a police officer, you'rea firefighter, you're on scene,
(23:55):
and you want to be able tocontrol that scene.
I'm fine with that.
But if there was things youweren't sure about, talk about
it afterwards, whether it's withyour someone you trust, uh
sergeant that is a good person,a mentor, you know, someone
someone who helped you train.
I mean, I they have alldifferent names now across the
states, but I think that's thevulnerability that we lack.
(24:16):
And for me, it's one of thosethings that I've learned to,
like I said to you privatelybefore we started.
I think as I grow older, I careeven less because I just think
that if you know, with all withhow I've dealt with life, I just
people will see me and first andthey'll be like, Oh, you are the
same person.
And you know, that's kind oflike it takes away from having
(24:36):
to put up a uh front or whateverabout this all-knowing or
controlled or whatever.
No, I'm as screwed up as thenext person.
It's just how it is.
SPEAKER_02 (24:46):
Yeah, you know what when you were saying this and
and really thinking about firstresponders and and and thinking
about stress is like that is astressful job, no matter how you
put it, right?
That is just it is.
And the way that you respond toit afterwards, it can can be
(25:06):
healthy or unhealthy, right?
And so one of the things that Iwas hearing from you too is like
there are times where like youhave to take control of
something, but then you're alsonot gonna know everything.
And how are we how are wecreating spaces afterwards to be
able to debrief that if we wantto say a logistical term, so
that we can ask questions andthat being vulnerable is
actually what builds trust andconnection with people.
(25:29):
And at the end of the day, youwant to be able to trust the
people that you're working with,right?
And and we just think aboutother things in your people in
your life.
You trust them because they wereopen and vulnerable and you were
open and vulnerable and you goteach other's back and you're
figuring it out together, right?
And and it feelscounterintuitive, and yet that
(25:50):
is actually how like trustedrelationships are built is that
you go through these likeuncomfortable, mucky times and
storming, conflicty times, butyou do it together, you and and
you share and you listen and allof that to get to a place of
like, okay, I know this personhas my back.
I know this, so I feelcomfortable, and and then you're
better at your job.
SPEAKER_00 (26:11):
Right.
And I think that it goes back toI I had a guest a few weeks ago
who talked about mentorship.
And I think we've lost that artin all, like, particularly,
we'll talk about firstresponders, but even in our
field, I had one hell of amentor, and um, he never asked
for a dime and he was vulnerablewith me when he didn't know.
And um, I I will always begrateful to Dennis.
(26:34):
I'm in his office now.
I took over his office justbecause of the and I left his
chair there because that's hischair, and I'm gonna always
leave it there.
He retired.
Uh, but I think that's the otherpart too, but we don't learn to
be vulnerable because we don'thave these people we can turn
to, whether it's a mentor orsomeone we can trust.
And that's the other big part istrust.
You know, Stephanie and I tendto have like a half-hour
(26:56):
conversation before these thingsbecause we catch up.
But there's a lot of stuff that,you know, she told me that are
meant in confidentiality.
I'm not sharing here.
And that's what she meant.
And I gained that trust byshowing that.
And hey, she gave me advice.
I hope I gave her some advice,and some of it's good, some of
it may not be bad for theirlives.
But ultimately, I think that'sthe other part too, is having
(27:17):
that one person you can trust,whether it's a mentor, trainer,
or whatever.
And I like to think that mycolleagues, uh, and I
particularly turn to you, uh,Courtney, who's obviously
someone you know that I can turnto and go, I don't know.
And they don't go to that andgo, oh my God, what's wrong with
you?
But they go, happy.
Right.
And I I've mentored many people,and there's nothing like getting
(27:40):
a phone call from them and say,Hey, I need help with this.
And if I can help them, I can.
If I can't, I tell them I don'tknow, and I'll look for the
answer.
And sometimes I'd ask thembecause they have specialties I
don't have.
But that's what I think ismissing.
SPEAKER_02 (27:53):
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
If I if you're not able to be vulnerable with the
people, like one trustworthyperson, what's the point?
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
You know, yeah, because we also cannot do it all
on our own.
Like it's not possible.
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Do you know anyone who's made it on their own?
SPEAKER_02 (28:10):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
I don't either.
I mean, everyone had someone.
I think that that's you know,you know, maybe a good spot to
talk a little bit about whatyou're doing right now because I
think that for me, that's whatyou're doing.
You're giving a lot of space forpeople to trust you and help
them go where they need to be.
And you're doing it in a very uhtruthful and honest way.
(28:31):
But you want to share a littlebit of what you're doing right
now?
SPEAKER_02 (28:34):
Yeah, well, I'm doing a few different things.
Actually, you talk aboutmentorship.
I have been um working with acouple of clients on building
effective mentorship programsand like what does that mean?
What does that look like?
How are we training people to beeffective mentors as well?
Um, so that's one thing that I'mdoing.
I'm also working with peopleone-on-one through like in
(28:55):
coaching.
And and one thing I really thinkis so powerful is if you're
working with a therapist and acoach, like I think that's just
a beautiful cocktail.
Um, for people who are notfamiliar with like what coaching
is.
Coaching is really about like,where are you now and where do
you want to be?
And how are we bridging the gapto get you there?
And while we'll look at thepast, because the past informs
(29:17):
who we are now and who we willbe, it's done in a very
different way than therapy.
And coaching, while it can feelvery therapeutic, I'm not
necessarily working on traumastuff.
And I'm more working on how areyou learning, how are you taking
what you're learning in therapyand all this other stuff and
creating, creating a pathway foryourself to get where you want
(29:40):
to be.
Um, so yeah, and I come at itfrom a very holistic
perspective.
So I'm looking not just atwhat's going on in your brain,
but also your body and youremotions.
And and I'm trained in aspecific framework called energy
leadership.
So it's all about how are youbeing a leader of your own life?
And um, I I sometimes talk aboutit as being a really great
(30:02):
emotional intelligence tool.
But I also use this frameworkwith teams and groups.
So helping teams and groups tobe more effective to navigate
conflict and change andtransition, which is just a
thing about life in general.
But right now we're our cultureis going through a lot of change
(30:22):
and transition.
And so with that comes stress.
And so how are we creatingresilience?
Right.
So a lot of my work is on stressand resilience, and how can you
create a lot of um tools foryourself and for others as both
formal leaders and informalleaders?
And then I do a lot of keynotespeaking right now.
(30:44):
And then I have I have anewsletter that I'd always love
people to subscribe to.
But I I write a, I guess youwould call it bi-monthly, twice
a month newsletter that reallytalks about some of the things
that I'm like working through,but how that theme is showing up
in client work or just thingsthat I'm seeing.
And I'm very my my philosophy islike, what are the tools that
(31:05):
you can use that you can likestart implementing right away?
Because that's the other bigthing about coaching that I
would say is somewhat differentthan therapy, depending on the
type of therapist you're goingto is how are you taking forward
action, right?
Whether that's an internal thingor an external thing, but what
is the thing that you'recommitted to to take action?
And then how are you holdingyourself accountable for that?
(31:27):
So yeah, those are some of thethings I'm doing right now.
And always looking to chat withnew people if you're if you're
interested in in any of the typedifferent sections or fields
that I am dabbling in.
SPEAKER_00 (31:40):
Stephanie is such a great guest and a great human
being, and I truly appreciateher.
Get her newsletter.
SPEAKER_02 (31:47):
I'll link it in the show notes with her website,
which is what uh Stephanie, myname, S-T-E-P-H-A-N-I-E-Simps,
S-I-M-P-S O N dot com.
SPEAKER_00 (31:58):
Go reach out to her, go get a newsletter because one
of the things she undersoldcompletely is her immense
vulnerability in hernewsletters, too.
She talks about where she's at,she talks about the difficulties
and the doubts and everythingelse.
And to me, that's what makes itone of the newsletters I look
most forward to because I seethat all the time.
(32:19):
And yes, she then goes intocoaching and explains to you how
it goes and then how you cancontact her.
But to me, we talked aboutvulnerability throughout this
episode.
But you didn't give yourselfenough credit for that
vulnerability that you offerboth on Instagram and um your
LinkedIn.
And I think that that's would beif you want an example of being
(32:40):
vulnerable, Stephanie is exactlythere.
And I really encourage you to gowith that.
SPEAKER_02 (32:45):
Yeah, thank you.
I feel like that was one of thereasons I started the newsletter
over a year ago was I wasfeeling like I wasn't getting to
share in the way that feltauthentic to me, especially
online.
And I also felt like I wantedmore community and like how
could I do that?
And that was really theinspiration and motivation for
(33:06):
the newsletter.
So I'm glad to hear that that'sresonating.
And and thinking about the wordvulnerability, like I really try
to think about vulnerability asa strength and just like
anything else, like a muscle tobuild the strength.
You've you've got to be doing ityourself too.
And and it doesn't mean, I mean,I'm trying to be better at
strength training right now inlife.
(33:26):
And that doesn't mean that whenI pick up those weights, that
it's it gets a little easierdepending on like how well I'm
how consistent I am, but it'sstill heavy, right?
And so it's still hard, it'sstill challenging.
I'm still sweating by the end ofit.
And so I think about that interms of vulnerability that like
while doing it gets easier, itdoesn't mean that it's super
(33:46):
easy every time you're doing it,but it is a strength.
SPEAKER_00 (33:50):
On that happy note, Steph, go to her website, go
subscribe to her newsletter, butStephanie Simpson from the
bottom of my heart.
Love you.
Happy you came on, and I can'twait to have you hat on again.
SPEAKER_02 (34:04):
Thank you.
Love you too.
SPEAKER_00 (34:06):
And maybe one day we'll be able to meet each other
face to face.
SPEAKER_01 (34:09):
I know that still hasn't happened.
SPEAKER_00 (34:11):
Talk to you.
And for those of you who arelistening, uh, thank you very
much for episode 229 and uh joinus for episode 230.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (34:22):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(34:46):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
You're listening to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Bisson.
We're here to strengthen firstresponder mental health,
supporting police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics as
they build resilience and thrivein high-stress careers.
SPEAKER_00 (00:16):
Let's dive in.ai.
(00:37):
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that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly encourage you to doso.
Welcome.
And this is the part two episodeof episode 229.
(01:59):
Stephanie Simpson, go listen tothe one on Wednesday so you can
get her name and everythingelse.
Because we're in the middle of agreat conversation here.
Uh, because we really turned tostress and trauma and how to
deal with it.
We talked about emotions, but wewent into stress and trauma.
And you talked about yourexperience of teaching future
first responders, which Ireally, really appreciate.
(02:20):
One of the things that the firstthing that comes to mind is this
if I dispose if I displaystress, I'm obviously weak.
What do you say to that?
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
Can I answer this in a different way?
Because talking about mystudents, so one of the first
weeks, I think it's the secondweek, I have them do a
discussion board post where theytalk about like what they think
their current relationship withstress is.
And when I read those, there'salways, always a handful, if not
(02:51):
more, people that say, oh, I'mreally good.
Like I don't really have a lotof stress in my life.
Like I'm really good at dealingwith stress.
And that to me is always ading-ding-ding.
SPEAKER_00 (03:00):
Correct.
SPEAKER_02 (03:00):
Because I'm like, oh you, there's something like you,
you either have not actuallyacknowledged what the actual
stressors are and you're nowjust avoiding everything, or you
actually don't understand whatstress really is, which to be
honest, most people don't.
That's like first most peopleactually don't know what stress
is.
So that's the first part of thesemester is like, let's get
(03:23):
really clear on what stress isand is not, and like the
different layers and like whatwe're calling things and what's
actually happening in the body,what's happening hormonally, all
of that.
And then it's as we go throughthe semester checking in with
those people where they're like,oh, actually, yeah, like I don't
deal with emotions at all, or Ijust, you know, whatever it may
be.
(03:43):
So that's always a reallyinteresting in like indication
to me when someone sayssomething like that.
I will say I feel like it tendsto be, I don't know, there's
there's actually a lot offactors.
I wouldn't say it's always maleor female.
I do think it tends to skew alittle male, but there's also
cultural things around it, likeand so many other things, and
(04:04):
and culture can mean a lot ofthings.
It can mean, you know, theculture of the work environment
that you're in and all of that.
And and with first responders,one of the things that I've
noticed is like, in order to begood at your job, you actually
do need to know how to likecompartmentalize and like shut
down certain aspects.
Like that is actually necessaryin order to be effective in the
(04:27):
job.
And the other aspect of it islike, but then where are you
putting all of that afterwards?
Because it's not sustainable tocontinue to compartmentalize and
because that's actually going tobe a problem down the line.
So I think about like animals,like certain animals, when they
go through the stress cycle,right?
(04:49):
They do their stress thingbecause they need to get to
safety.
And then afterwards, theyliterally convulse and shake it
all out so that the actualstress hormones and everything
like that leave their body.
So then they can go on andprance around or whatever they
do, you know, their daily life.
But us as humans, we haven'tbeen taught how to do that.
And so in we don't ever, Ishouldn't say we don't ever, but
(05:11):
a lot of us don't actually getto the shakeout part of it so
that we come back to a regulatedplace.
We just are continuouslyreactivating ourselves and then
shutting down to do the thingand then reactivating ourselves.
And so that over time is itliterally is not sustainable.
SPEAKER_00 (05:31):
There's so many things you just said that I
really want to react to.
I want to give you the um thewhole shaking thing.
I remember you talking about inthe previous podcast with
Courtney from Manowski, our oursometimes co-host here on
resilience development inaction.
We were talking about literallyshake it off, Steve.
And I remember, and again, youknow how much I love Courtney,
(05:53):
you know how much I love you.
And I'm like, yeah, whatever.
The first time I did, I'm like,holy crap, this works.
And I tell you right now thatthere's days where if I had a
hard session with someone, Iclose the door and I shake it
off, and people are like,Really?
I'm like, yeah, shake,literally, shake my body.
And for some reason it reallygrounds me.
(06:14):
And I think that there'sprobably some biological
explanation to that.
But it's a good advice that Igive to some of my guys and gals
that I work with because youliterally got to go like go in
the other room, shake it offliterally for a minute or two.
And if it's only twice, it'stwice.
Who cares?
But it will reground you.
So I want to share that as notonly did you make an impact on
me and Courtney made an impacton me, I usually use it, and
(06:37):
some of my guys and gals haveheard it.
SPEAKER_02 (06:39):
I love that.
I love that.
And there is a biological thing,and it's it's well, because
you're moving things around inthe body, right?
And another interesting thingthat typically this is kind of
more of a gendered thing, is mentend to like isolate and then
like go work out or something.
And like, and that's fine.
Like the working out part isreally great.
(07:01):
The isolation, not so great,right?
Women tend to tend and befriend,so they immediately go to a
bunch of people and share theirthing and blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, which also canbe really great because you're
getting that connection and thatsocial support.
It also can not be so greatdepending on who you're sharing
with, because they can actuallylayer on and then create more
(07:22):
stress, right?
And so what I like to share withany of my clients, but also my
students, is like, how are youdoing a both and like how are
you learning how to self-soothe?
And how are you literallyshaking or going to the gym or
I'm a runner?
So like going for a run orwhatever you might do, right?
To physically get out, thoughalso how are you connecting with
(07:42):
people who can be that supportfor you?
But doing a both and, because wedo need all of that, and doing
an extreme of one or the otheris also not going to be super
helpful.
SPEAKER_00 (07:55):
Well, I was gonna piggyback on what you just said.
No, it's not sexist or anythingelse.
But the truth is, men do that,women do that.
And to me, one of the thingsthat I find is with men in
particular, they really go intoall or nothing brain.
I work out, I'm fine.
No, you're not.
You're still a little fucked up,but you need to address that.
(08:17):
And then with women, is they gowhat I call kibbutzing with
other people.
And now suddenly they bring up,oh, did you think about this?
And now suddenly your anxietygoes even higher because you
shared your feelings.
Um call me sexist, I'm finewrite me, write me bad things
too.
I'm okay with that.
But I think I'm fairly accurate.
And I didn't say every man, Ididn't say every woman.
(08:38):
I'm just saying a generalstatement that's probably
accurate.
I think that it's important topoint out those differences of
communication because that's howwe're gonna deal with stress and
trauma appropriately.
I'm an emotional guy.
I have no problem saying that Iam.
But when my clients are openingup about stuff, I don't kind of
like break down.
I'm able to handle it.
But I also, my daughters andwill tell you, oh, he's a big
(08:59):
emotional ball.
Uh, and I'm okay with themthinking that if that's the
worst they could ever say aboutme, I'll let myself.
But I think that the bringingback a little bit to the stress
and the trauma, one of thethings you also mentioned is,
you know, dealing with it on aregular basis with your emotions
and acknowledging.
Sometimes people don't know howto put it in words.
I mean, it's easy to talk aboutcertain things, but like the
(09:22):
words are very difficult.
So like right now, I'm trying toformulate a good question that I
can't formulate, but I'macknowledging that I'm having
trouble.
But it it's really explaininglike when you've never had uh
acknowledgement of fear, you'renot able to talk about fear.
I had a client today who came inand said, Oh, I don't have any
anxiety, I said, So you're dead.
(09:45):
And they laughed exactly likethat.
And I'm like, No, we haveanxiety, you just don't like to
talk about it.
SPEAKER_02 (09:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
So how do we explain people?
Like, I I hate definitions, andwhat I mean by that is if I ask
Stephanie what the definition ofsadness is, they'll probably be
similar yet a little differentthan mine.
And both are valid.
That doesn't mean one's betterthan the other, it just means
it's different.
So, how do we help peopleidentify those emotions when
it's hard to put in in words,period?
SPEAKER_02 (10:11):
I fully agree with that, and I'm gonna share my
thoughts, also knowing theaudience that this might be a
little out there.
But um, to me, that's where someof like the arts come in.
Cause at the end of the day, weare all creative beings, like we
just are.
And whether people considerthemselves spiritual, religious,
(10:32):
or not, like being a wholeperson, creativity is part of
that.
I do believe that like the artsworld has somewhat like made it
be that like in order to becreative, you have to be
talented.
And I want to be very clear thatthose in my world are separate.
Everyone is creative.
That does not necessarily meanthat you need to be a talented
dancer, artist, singer, orwhatever, but we all are
(10:54):
creative beings becausecreativity is self-expression,
right?
So I typically find with clientsthat that there is something.
There is something that theyenjoy doing, whether that's
cooking, whether that isdecorating, whether that is
drawing or writing poetry or umsinging or dancing or whatever
(11:18):
it may be, there is some waythat they like to express
themselves, right?
And so when I can figure outwhat that is with a client, then
it's moving in that directionwith them, right?
And and finding a way to, ifit's music, right?
It doesn't need to be like I'm asinger, but if it's music, it's
like, great, what's like createa playlist that is a bunch of
(11:41):
songs that's representative ofhow you're feeling right now.
And then they're creating thatplaylist.
And then we like listen to theplaylist.
And then it's like, okay, whatis it about these songs that
you're getting connected to?
Cause then I think the challengesometimes for people, myself
included, is like, it's like,what am I?
I don't know.
I can't express it, blah, blah,blah.
But there are these other thingsout there that are resonating
(12:02):
with us.
So if it's a song, it's like,okay, well, what about this
song?
And it's like, well, I reallylove this one lyric.
And then I love how like thedrum comes in here, and then I
love how this happens.
Cool.
Well, now we can talk about themand through them and through me
being trained how to listen topeople and ask questions, all of
a sudden we're starting tounearth what the actual feelings
(12:22):
are, right?
Or drawing or, you know,shaping.
I mentioned in the part one ofthis of I do a lot of work where
I'll ask people like, where areyou feeling a sensation in your
body?
And if they're like, I don'tknow what that means, I'll be
like, where are you feelingtightness in your body?
Right.
Right.
Because that's what stress doesis it creates a tightness,
right?
So it's like whether that's myshoulder or my stomach or my
(12:44):
back.
And then I go, great.
Now, if this was the shape, whatshape is that tightness?
What color is it?
What is this?
What is that?
Blah, blah, blah.
So again, we're, we're, we'recreating distance from it,
right?
And then from there, I'll startsaying, like, well, when you're
looking at this, like what typeof emotions might be coming up?
(13:05):
Or what are you thinking whenthis comes up?
I think that's one, these aredifferent ways to get into it.
Again, I think the theme of allof it is how can we, how can we
get distance from it?
That it's not uh, it's not me,it's this other thing, because I
do think we as human beings arereally good at analyzing other
(13:26):
things.
Um, but when it comes toourselves, that's more
challenging.
So that's kind of how I workwith it.
SPEAKER_00 (13:33):
I think that it's a great way to break because music
is international.
I mean, I tell people that yougo to the most urban person
place in the world versus themost isolated jungle tribe that
you can possibly imagine.
You know what they all have incommon?
Music.
And so music tells a whole lotin, you know, in in America or
(13:54):
the Western culture, I shouldsay.
I always remind people if youlisten to a certain type of
music, there's gotta besomething about it that has an
emotional attachment to it.
SPEAKER_01 (14:02):
Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
So I talk about that.
So it's not woo-woo, if you askme, and to bring back even my
first responder people, if theykind of didn't get it, let me
explain it very differently.
When you go get a call and theysay, All right, unresponsive uh
person would a pulse ifsomeone's on scene to open the
door.
What's your first thought thathappened?
(14:25):
Well, they create 17 differentscenarios, including the worst
case scenario.
I said, so therefore you arecreative.
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (14:33):
You just wrote 17 episodes of a TV show.
SPEAKER_00 (14:36):
And you get there and turns out the person was
just passed out and got up, andthey're fine, and they just need
a quick medical before they goaway.
It could have been also a scenewhere there was poison.
Um you never know.
But you create all thesescenarios in order to make
yourself safe, and that'screativeness.
Learning to be creative aboutyourself, whether it's through
music or supporting each other.
(14:57):
And yes, for those who go to mygroup, thank you very much.
Yes, journaling.
We we all joke around, but mostof them privately have told me
that they've journaled and theyfind it very helpful.
SPEAKER_02 (15:09):
You know, I want to just give a shout out to this
too, because uh, in addition toteaching a stress management
class at John Jay, I also teacha yoga class.
Um and many of the people takeyoga not because they want to,
but because it's one credit andthey're like, oh crap, I need a
credit to graduate, right?
So I get a lot of differenttypes of students coming into
this, most of them not wantingto be a yogi, right?
(15:33):
And I'm very clear with them upfront that I'm like, I also did
not like yoga for many years.
And every time it came into mylife, I was like, hell no,
absolutely not in all of this.
And then all of a sudden it cameinto my life at another point
where it clicked and it workedand like has now become a big
part of my life for the lastover a decade.
In the way that I teach thisyoga class now, it's a
(15:54):
three-hour course because we seeeach other once a week for just
three hours.
We do the like physicalpractice, which is the asana
practice at the beginning.
But then we do, we also actuallystart with a community question.
So everyone has to answer thisquestion in small groups and
everything.
So we're learning how to listenand talk to each other.
And they're fun things like ifyou were an ingredient of a
salad, what would you be andwhy?
(16:15):
And like fun things like that,which is also getting people to
think creatively.
But then after break, we do, weread what's called the Yoga
Sutras and then they journal.
And I, and many of them at thebeginning were like, I hate
journaling.
I don't want to journal, blah,blah, blah.
And I'm like, totally, that'sunderstandable.
(16:35):
And I'm going, it's anexpectation of this class.
You don't have to actuallyanswer the questions I'm asking
you to journal.
Like, but I do need you to spendthe next 10 minutes, and we
always do 10 minutes writing.
If that means you want to drawinstead of write, if it's random
words, I'm okay with that.
You're never gonna hand it in tome.
And then you're gonna get intosmall groups and you're gonna
discuss what came up.
(16:56):
And over the last few weeks,because we're like halfway
through the semester now, Icannot tell you how many of them
were like, I really hatedjournaling, but this has
actually been really refreshingand it's been really
interesting.
And I just have never thought topause and think about some of
these questions you're asking usto think about, and then to be
(17:16):
able to share with other people.
And the biggest takeaway, andthis is the thing that like
warms my heart the most, is thatthey all go at every at the end
of every class and in the stressmanagement class too, because we
do a lot of like reflecting,sharing with a small group, then
big group, is they all then say,it feels really good to know
that I'm not the only onethinking and feeling this way.
(17:37):
It feels really good to knowthat like I'm not the only one
struggling with X, Y, and Z.
It feels really good to knowthat like all these like wild
thoughts that I have that stopme from doing the thing that I
want to do or like saying hi tothe person over there, whatever
is like universal.
And going back to like what Isaid in the first episode about
(18:01):
like what really drew me todoing this work was how do we
create these spaces where peoplefeel more supported?
I don't use the word comfortablebecause we're not always
comfortable in these spaces, buthow do we feel supported to be
able to get some of this stuffout and up and out and then
connect with other people?
Because if we're not doing that,like we're all doomed, to be
(18:25):
honest, right?
And it's it is such, I mean,that in itself is they leave the
classes feeling better becausethey've connected with other
people in a way that was real.
There's definitely somevulnerability in there, but
they're allowed to share totheir own comfort level.
And and that, like that to me,I'm just like, how do we get
more spaces like that foreverybody?
SPEAKER_00 (18:47):
Right.
And I think that, you know, Iwas right wrote down, I can't
remember which academy aroundhere says this, but one of the
first lessons is be comfortablewith being uncomfortable.
And I think that that's goes fora lot of my first responders.
But I think in general, evenwriting for myself and my
journal or anything else, Igotta be uncomfortable to write
some stuff and be okay with thatbecause it will get comfortable
(19:09):
eventually until it's not, andthat's okay too.
And being able to do that is soimportant.
So I like your message there.
But more importantly, I thinkthat I have a group that I run
with first responders only.
And most of the guys who come inand gals who come in are like,
oh, I'm so not alone that peoplethink like me.
And that's usually the firstmessage.
The other part that I think isuh helpful for them too is they
(19:32):
get to have their veryuncomfortable gallows humor,
dark humor, whatever the hellyou want to call it.
And everyone laughs and they'relike, Oh, so I'm not only alone,
I can feel this way, and it'snatural.
I think that that's the keybecause we try to abnormalize
ourselves constantly.
And you talk about our innervoice, we get uncomfortable with
ourselves, but then we want tonormalize it by squashing it the
(19:55):
hardest we can, which is reallyscrewy, if you ask me.
SPEAKER_02 (19:59):
Yeah, and then we're not we're not being our
authentic self, which thencreates another type of internal
distress, which is the badstress, right?
Because then it's like, I don'tget to be me.
And and then it that's not goodeither.
And so it's like, how do we findthe spaces where we get to be
our whole selves and supportedto doing that?
(20:21):
And then, and I mean, I will saythis too, is like it's really
vulnerable to be your whole selfin front of people.
So yeah, I just will name thatit it can be really scary.
SPEAKER_00 (20:32):
Well, I think that it's not about being your whole
self, honestly.
I think it's about people whodon't want to hear certain
things.
I think being ourselves is notis not hard per se.
But when I have to say, hey,listen, I don't know the answer
to your therapy question, butI'll look into it.
That's super vulnerable andthat's difficult because I'm
supposed to be quote, theexpert.
(20:53):
Look at all my website, by theway, and everything else.
Expert never shows up in mynotes because I don't believe in
that.
But that's the vulnerabilitythat's hard.
If Steph called me and washaving a hard time, sometimes I
won't know what to say.
And now I gotta be, oh my God, Itold her she could call.
No, you don't need to be thatbeing truthful about yourself is
saying, Steph, I wish I had theright words for you, I just
(21:14):
don't.
And that's vulnerable to saybecause that makes you feel
like, oh my god, what's gonnahappen?
Is that gonna break therelationship or not?
Fact of the matter is people aremuch more comforted by truth
than they are about anall-knowing human being.
I think that that's one of theroles we end up playing in our
lives privately and in uh in ourjob.
(21:35):
And that's why I tell peoplelike, you don't know everything,
and that's okay.
There's nothing wrong with that.
And I think that's part of thevulnerability that people don't
want to display.
SPEAKER_02 (21:42):
I yeah, I love that.
It yes, because even inleadership, and I do a lot of
work on like leadershipdevelopment and like coaching
like executives, that isactually the narrative that
we're trying to shift a lot, isthat just because you're a CEO
or a C-suite level doesn't meanyou're the expert.
And actually that's not going tohelp you continue to be
(22:03):
successful.
Like, how can you say, I don'tknow, but let's find out
together or let me go askquestions or whatever.
That, but that's a veryvulnerable thing.
And it reminds me of like, Idon't remember the question you
fully asked about stress at thebeginning of this section, but
you were like, what would yousay if someone was like, oh,
stressed?
I forget how it was, but it wasthat it's a similar sort of
(22:25):
thing of like saying, like,yeah, I'm gonna have stress and
I actually don't know how tohandle it all the time, but I'm
working on it.
That must feel very vulnerable,right?
And also for all of us, it'sactually the truth, right?
Like we all are trying, becausejust I try to remind people too
is like the thing that stressedyou out today might happen again
(22:45):
tomorrow, but tomorrow you'reshowing up a little differently
than you were today.
So the way that you dealt withit today may be different and
needs to be different tomorrow.
You actually don't, you're it'slike work in progress all the
time, which can feel veryvulnerable because it also means
you don't have a lot of control.
And so saying I don't know isactually saying, like, I don't
(23:07):
know, and I don't have controlover how this is gonna go, but
I'm okay with figuring it outwith you.
SPEAKER_00 (23:12):
And I think that that's that's where I've learned
to be more vulnerable, so tospeak, in my life.
Because you know what how muchpressure it took off me?
Because when you got to be anall-knowing fire uh freaking
person is exhaust exhaust,exhausting.
So exhaust you know, like and Ithink that that's one of the
(23:32):
other things about firstresponders, and I think even
your C-suite people have all thetime.
You gotta be all knowing, butthen you carry the stress, like,
I don't know what I fucking justsaid, and I feel like in a mute,
and like I didn't mean what Imeant, and I didn't mean what I
said or whatever.
And I'm like, that's why youneed to be able to be vulnerable
and say what you don't know,because that's strong.
You're a police officer, you'rea firefighter, you're on scene,
(23:55):
and you want to be able tocontrol that scene.
I'm fine with that.
But if there was things youweren't sure about, talk about
it afterwards, whether it's withyour someone you trust, uh
sergeant that is a good person,a mentor, you know, someone
someone who helped you train.
I mean, I they have alldifferent names now across the
states, but I think that's thevulnerability that we lack.
(24:16):
And for me, it's one of thosethings that I've learned to,
like I said to you privatelybefore we started.
I think as I grow older, I careeven less because I just think
that if you know, with all withhow I've dealt with life, I just
people will see me and first andthey'll be like, Oh, you are the
same person.
And you know, that's kind oflike it takes away from having
(24:36):
to put up a uh front or whateverabout this all-knowing or
controlled or whatever.
No, I'm as screwed up as thenext person.
It's just how it is.
SPEAKER_02 (24:46):
Yeah, you know what when you were saying this and
and really thinking about firstresponders and and and thinking
about stress is like that is astressful job, no matter how you
put it, right?
That is just it is.
And the way that you respond toit afterwards, it can can be
(25:06):
healthy or unhealthy, right?
And so one of the things that Iwas hearing from you too is like
there are times where like youhave to take control of
something, but then you're alsonot gonna know everything.
And how are we how are wecreating spaces afterwards to be
able to debrief that if we wantto say a logistical term, so
that we can ask questions andthat being vulnerable is
actually what builds trust andconnection with people.
(25:29):
And at the end of the day, youwant to be able to trust the
people that you're working with,right?
And and we just think aboutother things in your people in
your life.
You trust them because they wereopen and vulnerable and you were
open and vulnerable and you goteach other's back and you're
figuring it out together, right?
And and it feelscounterintuitive, and yet that
(25:50):
is actually how like trustedrelationships are built is that
you go through these likeuncomfortable, mucky times and
storming, conflicty times, butyou do it together, you and and
you share and you listen and allof that to get to a place of
like, okay, I know this personhas my back.
I know this, so I feelcomfortable, and and then you're
better at your job.
SPEAKER_00 (26:11):
Right.
And I think that it goes back toI I had a guest a few weeks ago
who talked about mentorship.
And I think we've lost that artin all, like, particularly,
we'll talk about firstresponders, but even in our
field, I had one hell of amentor, and um, he never asked
for a dime and he was vulnerablewith me when he didn't know.
And um, I I will always begrateful to Dennis.
(26:34):
I'm in his office now.
I took over his office justbecause of the and I left his
chair there because that's hischair, and I'm gonna always
leave it there.
He retired.
Uh, but I think that's the otherpart too, but we don't learn to
be vulnerable because we don'thave these people we can turn
to, whether it's a mentor orsomeone we can trust.
And that's the other big part istrust.
You know, Stephanie and I tendto have like a half-hour
(26:56):
conversation before these thingsbecause we catch up.
But there's a lot of stuff that,you know, she told me that are
meant in confidentiality.
I'm not sharing here.
And that's what she meant.
And I gained that trust byshowing that.
And hey, she gave me advice.
I hope I gave her some advice,and some of it's good, some of
it may not be bad for theirlives.
But ultimately, I think that'sthe other part too, is having
(27:17):
that one person you can trust,whether it's a mentor, trainer,
or whatever.
And I like to think that mycolleagues, uh, and I
particularly turn to you, uh,Courtney, who's obviously
someone you know that I can turnto and go, I don't know.
And they don't go to that andgo, oh my God, what's wrong with
you?
But they go, happy.
Right.
And I I've mentored many people,and there's nothing like getting
(27:40):
a phone call from them and say,Hey, I need help with this.
And if I can help them, I can.
If I can't, I tell them I don'tknow, and I'll look for the
answer.
And sometimes I'd ask thembecause they have specialties I
don't have.
But that's what I think ismissing.
SPEAKER_02 (27:53):
Yeah, I agree.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
If I if you're not able to be vulnerable with the
people, like one trustworthyperson, what's the point?
SPEAKER_02 (28:01):
You know, yeah, because we also cannot do it all
on our own.
Like it's not possible.
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Do you know anyone who's made it on their own?
SPEAKER_02 (28:10):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (28:11):
I don't either.
I mean, everyone had someone.
I think that that's you know,you know, maybe a good spot to
talk a little bit about whatyou're doing right now because I
think that for me, that's whatyou're doing.
You're giving a lot of space forpeople to trust you and help
them go where they need to be.
And you're doing it in a very uhtruthful and honest way.
(28:31):
But you want to share a littlebit of what you're doing right
now?
SPEAKER_02 (28:34):
Yeah, well, I'm doing a few different things.
Actually, you talk aboutmentorship.
I have been um working with acouple of clients on building
effective mentorship programsand like what does that mean?
What does that look like?
How are we training people to beeffective mentors as well?
Um, so that's one thing that I'mdoing.
I'm also working with peopleone-on-one through like in
(28:55):
coaching.
And and one thing I really thinkis so powerful is if you're
working with a therapist and acoach, like I think that's just
a beautiful cocktail.
Um, for people who are notfamiliar with like what coaching
is.
Coaching is really about like,where are you now and where do
you want to be?
And how are we bridging the gapto get you there?
And while we'll look at thepast, because the past informs
(29:17):
who we are now and who we willbe, it's done in a very
different way than therapy.
And coaching, while it can feelvery therapeutic, I'm not
necessarily working on traumastuff.
And I'm more working on how areyou learning, how are you taking
what you're learning in therapyand all this other stuff and
creating, creating a pathway foryourself to get where you want
(29:40):
to be.
Um, so yeah, and I come at itfrom a very holistic
perspective.
So I'm looking not just atwhat's going on in your brain,
but also your body and youremotions.
And and I'm trained in aspecific framework called energy
leadership.
So it's all about how are youbeing a leader of your own life?
And um, I I sometimes talk aboutit as being a really great
(30:02):
emotional intelligence tool.
But I also use this frameworkwith teams and groups.
So helping teams and groups tobe more effective to navigate
conflict and change andtransition, which is just a
thing about life in general.
But right now we're our cultureis going through a lot of change
(30:22):
and transition.
And so with that comes stress.
And so how are we creatingresilience?
Right.
So a lot of my work is on stressand resilience, and how can you
create a lot of um tools foryourself and for others as both
formal leaders and informalleaders?
And then I do a lot of keynotespeaking right now.
(30:44):
And then I have I have anewsletter that I'd always love
people to subscribe to.
But I I write a, I guess youwould call it bi-monthly, twice
a month newsletter that reallytalks about some of the things
that I'm like working through,but how that theme is showing up
in client work or just thingsthat I'm seeing.
And I'm very my my philosophy islike, what are the tools that
(31:05):
you can use that you can likestart implementing right away?
Because that's the other bigthing about coaching that I
would say is somewhat differentthan therapy, depending on the
type of therapist you're goingto is how are you taking forward
action, right?
Whether that's an internal thingor an external thing, but what
is the thing that you'recommitted to to take action?
And then how are you holdingyourself accountable for that?
(31:27):
So yeah, those are some of thethings I'm doing right now.
And always looking to chat withnew people if you're if you're
interested in in any of the typedifferent sections or fields
that I am dabbling in.
SPEAKER_00 (31:40):
Stephanie is such a great guest and a great human
being, and I truly appreciateher.
Get her newsletter.
SPEAKER_02 (31:47):
I'll link it in the show notes with her website,
which is what uh Stephanie, myname, S-T-E-P-H-A-N-I-E-Simps,
S-I-M-P-S O N dot com.
SPEAKER_00 (31:58):
Go reach out to her, go get a newsletter because one
of the things she undersoldcompletely is her immense
vulnerability in hernewsletters, too.
She talks about where she's at,she talks about the difficulties
and the doubts and everythingelse.
And to me, that's what makes itone of the newsletters I look
most forward to because I seethat all the time.
(32:19):
And yes, she then goes intocoaching and explains to you how
it goes and then how you cancontact her.
But to me, we talked aboutvulnerability throughout this
episode.
But you didn't give yourselfenough credit for that
vulnerability that you offerboth on Instagram and um your
LinkedIn.
And I think that that's would beif you want an example of being
(32:40):
vulnerable, Stephanie is exactlythere.
And I really encourage you to gowith that.
SPEAKER_02 (32:45):
Yeah, thank you.
I feel like that was one of thereasons I started the newsletter
over a year ago was I wasfeeling like I wasn't getting to
share in the way that feltauthentic to me, especially
online.
And I also felt like I wantedmore community and like how
could I do that?
And that was really theinspiration and motivation for
(33:06):
the newsletter.
So I'm glad to hear that that'sresonating.
And and thinking about the wordvulnerability, like I really try
to think about vulnerability asa strength and just like
anything else, like a muscle tobuild the strength.
You've you've got to be doing ityourself too.
And and it doesn't mean, I mean,I'm trying to be better at
strength training right now inlife.
(33:26):
And that doesn't mean that whenI pick up those weights, that
it's it gets a little easierdepending on like how well I'm
how consistent I am, but it'sstill heavy, right?
And so it's still hard, it'sstill challenging.
I'm still sweating by the end ofit.
And so I think about that interms of vulnerability that like
while doing it gets easier, itdoesn't mean that it's super
(33:46):
easy every time you're doing it,but it is a strength.
SPEAKER_00 (33:50):
On that happy note, Steph, go to her website, go
subscribe to her newsletter, butStephanie Simpson from the
bottom of my heart.
Love you.
Happy you came on, and I can'twait to have you hat on again.
SPEAKER_02 (34:04):
Thank you.
Love you too.
SPEAKER_00 (34:06):
And maybe one day we'll be able to meet each other
face to face.
SPEAKER_01 (34:09):
I know that still hasn't happened.
SPEAKER_00 (34:11):
Talk to you.
And for those of you who arelistening, uh, thank you very
much for episode 229 and uh joinus for episode 230.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (34:22):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(34:46):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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