November 14, 2025 • 31 mins
Change that lasts doesn’t come from a one-time high or another sleepless night patched by a pill. It comes from disciplined, daily work that your brain can actually keep—paired with leadership that people trust when it matters most. Steve sits down with Marine veteran and CEO Tony Crescenzo to unpack how audio-driven brain signals can turn short-term “state” shifts into month-later “trait” changes, especially for first responders who need real restorative sleep, calmer stress responses, and sharp, on-demand focus.
Tony explains why many sleep aids trade consciousness for quality, and how targeted signals—played on speakers, no headphones required—help nudge your brain into restorative rhythms you can retain. We talk timing and caution with upregulation tools, creative research that mimics ketamine-like EEG states without the drug, and why a practical 28 to 31 day window is fast when you’re aiming for durable change. Therapy isn’t sidelined; it’s strengthened. Cultural competence, honest fit, and doing the work between sessions matter as much as any technology.
Then we move from personal resilience to organizational resilience. Tony draws from the Marine Corps to break down four levels of leadership, from positional authority to field effect, where mission, vision, values, and culture guide action even when you’re not in the room. He favors bad news because it’s actionable, builds systems that surface hard questions, and sets expectations so clearly that people don’t have to guess. Management keeps metrics on track; leadership gives the plan meaning and keeps teams aligned under pressure.
If you’re a first responder, veteran, or leader trying to build a healthier, higher-performing team, this conversation offers tools you can use today and habits you can keep for the long haul. Subscribe, share this episode with a teammate who needs better sleep or better leadership, and leave a review to help others find the show.
How to reach Jonathan:
1) https://www.IntelligentWaves.com
2) https://www.PeakNeuro.com
3) https://www.linkedin.com/in/tonycrescenzo/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:01):
You're listening to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Beastle.
We're here to strengthen firstresponder mental health,
supporting police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics as
they build resilience and thrivein high-stress careers.
Let's dive in.ai.
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You heard me talk about it.
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Get free from even writing your uh transcripts.
Uh use that to your advantage.
Uh free.ai, a great service.
Go to get free.ai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly encourage you to doso.
Well, welcome back to theepisode.
(01:57):
I'm here with Tony Crescenzo,and for those of you who missed
the first part, go back andlisten to it because this
episode 230 is reallyfascinating.
We're talking about differentthings.
We we left off in the firstepisode in regards to we were
talking about how we can this inabout a month works.
You know, the first thought Ihad, and this is with all due
respect to all my guys who arefirst responders at military.
(02:21):
A month's way too long, Tony.
What the hell are you talkingabout?
I gotta get better today.
What the hell, man?
Why am I gonna have to wait amonth?
I know you talked about yoursleep and what I got from that
too.
And please elaborate as youwish, but I think that the other
part too is that you don't, youknow, you take a pill, you're
gonna sleep, but you're notgonna get to the REM sleep,
(02:41):
you're not gonna get therestorative sleep, you're not
gonna get what you want.
But getting back to therestorative sleep is not a
one-day pro like thing.
And I think that a lot of peoplestruggle with that.
So maybe you can expand a littlemore in regards to that.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
No, it's a it's a great question.
And what I meant by uh, I thinkthe average is 28 to 31 days, is
where this becomes what we calltrait level, not state level.
So if you've ever listened toBrain FM or Endel or Calm uh or
what's the other one, Headspace.
I think um Headspace.
One of them is one of them isjust guided meditation, there's
(03:16):
no signals in it.
Or if you listen to the expandapp, um, what you'll you know,
what you'll find is that you'llfeel good for a half hour until
the exercise is over.
And then you go, your brain justsnaps back to the way it was.
Um the difference is is when youuse and you you you you'd have
to dedicate some time to it,it's about a half hour a day.
(03:36):
Uh and if you want to sleep atnight, you just put on the sleep
thing.
You can play it on a stereo.
You don't need uh you don't evenneed headphones.
SPEAKER_00 (03:42):
Uh stereo, you just give away your age.
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
That's okay.
I I don't mind.
You know, we're trying to helppeople here.
I'm not I'm not sellingheadphones anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
I just want to I just wanted to note that because
my kids like stereo, what'sthat?
SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
So you go as long as you play it on a speaker, you'd
be okay.
It sounds like airplane noise,it sounds like white noise.
Um you you feel the effects onday one, but they become
cumulative, and your brainactually changes.
You get what's called, so whenyou do it on day one, you get a
state level change.
30 minutes later, boy, I feelgood for a couple hours.
(04:15):
And on day two, boy, I feel goodfor a couple hours and a few
minutes, and so on and so on,until somewhere around the uh
28th to 31st day, we start tosee these changes occur and they
stick.
Um, as I said, I I haven'tlistened to the sleep signals
for a year and a half, and Istill sleep 50% restorative
(04:37):
because my brain is now changed.
Now, I all you know I'm alsotesting all the new stuff that
we do, and I'm typically intraining uh uh you know at least
once a day anyway, just becauseit's it's the the work that we
do.
But the the difference betweenthis and anything else is that
after about a month, you'regonna find that you don't need
it as much.
It's not something that you haveto live with.
Think of it this way (04:57):
if you want to get fit, you're and
let's say you start with uhbarbell curls, you're gonna get
some big biceps, but yourtriceps are gonna maybe not be
so great, or your chest.
So you'll do that and thenyou'll move on to chest, and
then you move on to somethingelse.
And basically, it's an e it'sreally a never-ending process.
You what I found is you get tothe point where you sleep well,
(05:18):
and then you're like, well, whatelse can I do?
Well, you know, maybe I'd liketo think better, maybe I'd like
my reaction time to be faster,maybe I'd like to upregulate,
you know, to the point that wecan downregulate you
post-trauma.
We can also, you know, we'reworking with uh uh some
classified customers on keepingcombat troops, uh keeping troops
effective, combat effective onthree hours of sleep.
(05:41):
And the way we do that is it's aI won't get into the details
here, but essentially we workbackwards from the problem of
two marine lance corporalssitting in a sitting in a
fighting hole, two hours on, twohours off on watch.
The guy who's two hours offisn't really getting any good
sleep at two hours, but we canmimic in your brain what that
sleep looks like, which is verylow delta, and then increase
(06:03):
your ability to be lucid so ifsomebody comes sneaking up on
your position, you can hear it.
Uh so the ability to up and downregulate are two different
things.
I tested something yesterday, itwas kind of funny.
We do this with an EEG in ourlab, and I was testing some up
upregulation uh technology, andI had a hell of a time going to
sleep last night.
It was like six hours later, andI'm thinking to myself, I always
(06:25):
fall asleep in like threebreaths.
This what's going on?
And I had to run downstairs andgo look at the results of uh the
exercises that I tested.
And I guess good news is theywork and they last for a while.
Bad news is you got to becareful when you use them.
SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
Uh so you know, I want to add a couple of things
here for for the audience tounderstand why change takes that
that time.
There's two things that are wellknown in my field is that it
takes at least 21 days for achange, and the important part
is at least 21.
And I tell people, like, if youdon't give it three weeks, and
that's the bare minimum, you'rea really fast learner if it's
(07:02):
three weeks.
It it's really rare that peopledo it within 21.
The other very important one isit takes at least seven
repetitions of the same thing inorder to really sink into your
brain, and that's not me sayingthat, that's neurology saying
that.
So I think that what I I thinkit was important not only to add
to what you were saying is thatthose two stats are just like
well known, well proven.
(07:23):
So 28 days isn't that that slow.
I I think it's pretty fast.
And you know, coming to therapywith me, and then they come in
for six weeks, and sometimesthey'll be like, Why haven't
changed?
I said, What type of effort haveyou made outside that hour?
And they're like, uh, and I'mlike, exactly.
I mean, I go to therapy myself,but it's not like my therapist,
like I go, all right, I had myone hour, I'm better.
(07:45):
I gotta think about what mytherapist said, put some things
in place.
Some of it works, some of itdoesn't.
And when you're dealing withthis type of uh peak neural
stuff and what you're talkingabout, I think it's fascinating
because it's all good stuff thatreally will bring change.
But I just want to reallyaddress with my audience that
again, knowing your people,cultural competency, yes, it
(08:07):
takes time, but 28 days isn'tthat long.
So just wanted to throw thatout.
SPEAKER_01 (08:12):
Well, if you're a if you're a first responder or a
military veteran, the one thingyou know about is discipline,
and that takes discipline to doit to do it every day for 30
days, it it takes it.
And if you want to change, youcan.
unknown (08:24):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
And you'll do it, you'll do it without drugs,
which is really interesting.
Uh one of the experiments wetried, so we took a veteran on a
ketamine journey.
Uh veterans love uh, I think oneof the one of the uh clear
winners in treating PTSD is ispsychedelics.
It's new, but there are manythat either can't or don't want
to take uh a psychedelic.
(08:46):
So we reverse engineered thebrainwaves of a veteran on
ketamine and put that into uh anentrainment package, and it
actually works.
It takes a couple of tries.
You can't do it on the firstone, or most people can't, but
after two or three of those,man, you you really get the
experience.
It's it's interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
That's perfect.
I really like that because Ithink that that's what we need
to learn to do is to adapt.
I think you talk we talked aboutadaptation the first part.
I always think about adaptationas a need in general for life.
The other part that youmentioned that I, you know, one
of the things that you talkabout that is, you know, you had
a therapist and you know, he hadto take, he's like, you know
(09:24):
what, you're triggering me.
I think that one of the thingsthat I want to share with people
is that I I really like whatPeak Neuro is doing.
But if you do have a therapistthat is being truthful and says
that to you, respect it.
And vice versa, if the therapistis not able to handle it,
respect that and tell them that,okay, great, I'll find someone
else who's culturally competentor someone else who's like that.
Um the reason why I mentionedthat is I see too many military
(09:48):
personnel who you know end up inmy couch eventually.
I'm like, you're this fifth guy,and you seem to be understanding
me more than all the other fourcombined.
And I said, Well, it's becausethey may not have had the
cultural competency, maybe youweren't connected to them, maybe
there's something else that wasgoing on, but ultimately being
very mindful of that.
Um, as you as you talk a lotabout this stuff, maybe it's
(10:10):
time to shift a little bit thegears because I want to know a
couple of things.
You're you when you serve, I Ithink that when you have a
marine background in particular,as much as I make fun of my
marine guys sometimes, I love mymarine guys, but it really
there's a something aboutleadership philosophy and the
work that you got to do with theMarines that sometimes can
(10:32):
really fit into a culture of aworkplace, or it could really,
really, really be bad.
Because you are very muchmethodical and disciplined, as
you mentioned.
What how has that shaped yourphilosophy as a guy who's gone
from venture capitalist to yourtreatment to what you're doing
right now?
SPEAKER_01 (10:49):
That's a that's a great question.
Um, you know, it's interesting.
The Marine Corps is differentthan all of the other branches
of the armed services in one,well, in many ways, but I'll
give you the from a leadershipstandpoint in this way.
SPEAKER_00 (11:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Uh, if you're if you enlist in the Air Force, you may
be in the Air Force for 10 yearsbefore you receive one hour of
leadership training.
If you enlist in the Army, youwill not receive leadership
training until you're an NCO.
Same thing with the Navy.
You could be a chief pettyofficer and not receive
leadership training.
Every Marine private whograduates from boot camp and
(11:23):
every Marine second lieutenantwho graduates from officer
candidate school receive exactlythe same training, same
leadership training.
So while every Marine is arifleman, every Marine is also a
leader, and it is an ongoingdaily, everyday exercise in
learning how to lead others.
(11:43):
Now, the difference I think forsome people is there's a much,
there's a there's a pretty biggap between, say, NCO leadership
and uh how general officerslead.
I have uh I have three uhlieutenant generals on my board
at Intelligent Waves.
Um uh Lieutenant General CameronHolt, he's retired from the
United States Air Force,Lieutenant General John Sattler,
(12:05):
who is a retired United StatesMarine, and the commanding
general of the Second Battle ofFallujah, the largest firefight
since Vietnam.
And his boss, uh LieutenantGeneral Tom Metz from the United
States Army, he was the uh chiefof staff of all forces in Iraq,
and General Metz worked for him.
Um, what I can tell you is that,and people ask me this all the
(12:27):
time, every important thing Iever learned about leadership in
my life, I learned in the MarineCorps.
And the entire rest of my careerhas been a validation exercise.
And what that means is it's notreally, and pardon my French,
but you got first responders onthere, it's not really about
putting your foot in people'sass.
Um, the the Marine Corps it hasa very elegant leadership
(12:48):
philosophy.
In fact, if you go to the UnitedStates Naval Academy, you are
required to write what's calleda leader's compass.
And it is your personalleadership philosophy, and it's
something that I've embraced.
Uh my leader's compass is now300 pages, but I distill it down
to two.
And every employee, everycustomer, every board member,
everyone I interact with gets acopy of that for two reasons.
(13:10):
One, it's kind of a primer onhow to work with me.
What I stand for, what I won'tstand for, what I value, um, and
what I would like you to value.
And that's how I'm going to holdyou accountable.
But it's also how you hold meaccountable.
If I tell you that transparencyis important and I'm not
transparent with you, then youshould be able to hold me
accountable.
It's kind of funny.
(13:30):
There's a uh I'm I'm aboutthree-quarters of the way
through a book on leadershipthat starts with really the four
stages.
So you start with leadershipthat's positional.
Uh I'm a corporal, you're aprivate, you do what I say
because I got that stripe overhere.
SPEAKER_00 (13:43):
Right, the stripe, the stripes and stars, right?
SPEAKER_01 (13:45):
Yeah, that's that's leadership by authority, right?
That's uh that's do it because Isay so.
And then, you know, you get alittle bit better and you start
to realize, man, you know, it'sreally about relationships.
You know, I'm I'm I'm gonnadevelop relationships with
people, I'm gonna care aboutthem, uh, I'm gonna introduce
them to people, I'm gonna helpthem grow.
And that's the second stagewhere you become a relational
leader.
But there are limitations tothat as well.
(14:07):
In particular, I would tell youthat there's something they
teach Marine officers that aretrue for business executives.
And it might not be pleasant tohear, but it's true.
To be a good Marine officer andto be a good business executive,
you have to be able to kill thething you love the most, and
that's the people who work foryou.
They're not your friends, right?
They're just not.
But you are responsible for themand everything that they do, and
(14:28):
everything that they fail to dois on you.
So you have to understand thatthat's really from a
responsibility standpoint.
I I love uh Lieutenant GeneralSattler.
He gives a talk.
I'll give him credit because Idon't want anybody to think I
stole his talk.
He calls it generals eat last.
And when you're in the field oryou're in combat operations, you
could be out for 30 days, nothave a shower, living in the
dirt, eating out of a plasticbag, and then one day the chow
(14:51):
truck shows up with hot food.
And you know who eats first?
Privates.
And then corporals, sergeants,then officers, lieutenants,
captains, colonels.
By the time it gets to thegenerals, there's usually coffee
and cake, and that's about it.
But you know what?
That's the way it should be,because privates fight the war.
And so leaders who lead likethat tend to be very successful.
(15:12):
And leaders who decide that, youknow, I think what did uh I
think it was Napoleon who saidthe general's reward isn't a
bigger tent.
It's it's the privilege ofcommand.
It's it's the trust that peopleput in you.
So you go from relationalleadership, where it's all about
who you know, to strategicleadership, which is really
about growing people and helpingthem achieve what they want to
(15:34):
be.
And then I think the fourthlevel, which a lot of people
never get to, is what I callfield effect leadership, where
you don't even have to be in theroom.
The fact that you have imbued onan organization mission, vision,
values, and culture means thatif you're not there, no one
needs to ask.
You know, the what do I fearmost is people having to ask,
what would Tony do?
(15:55):
What would Tony say?
I don't want him to I don't wanthim to ask, I want them to know.
And if they can see me comingfrom a thousand miles away, it
makes it easier for them tooperate.
Because you know, the number onereason people leave companies is
they don't understand what theirboss wants.
Setting and managingexpectations is one of the most
important things a leader cando.
And to do it compassionately uhis difficult, right?
(16:16):
We're all we're all underpressure.
Uh we're in the we're in themiddle of a government shutdown.
I've got hundreds of employeeswho are at risk right now.
And not just the employees, buttheir families.
And yet, if something aggravatesme, I don't get to bite
somebody's ass off.
I mean, I I might do it foreffect because that's you know,
that's part of leadership too,is understanding uh what someone
(16:36):
needs.
Leadership is a conversation,it's a dialogue between the
leader and the led.
And if you listen, people willtell you what they need.
And most often, they don't needyou to yell at them.
They need you to understandthem, they need you to meet them
where they are, and they needyou to bring them where they
need to go.
Um and that to me is is reallythe essence of leadership.
(16:57):
And the Marine Corps is a lotlike that.
Yes, I, you know, I don't knowif anyone's watched that show
Boots on Netflix.
It's yeah, viral now.
You know, there's some crazystuff in there that doesn't make
sense.
No one ever lets you havealcohol in the Marine Corps boot
camp.
And drill instructors are notnice to you.
They might they might actuallybe nice to you like the last
day, but for the most part, thatthat's pretty real.
But you'll notice in that inthat in that series that there
(17:21):
are times when the drillinstructors are very
compassionate, when theyunderstand what's going on,
because they've been there.
Their job is to make Marines.
And one of the things that Ilearned very early in boot camp
and in officer candidate school,I've been a graduate of both, is
they're gonna beat you until itdoesn't affect you anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (17:39):
And then then they'll leave you alone to go
bother somebody else.
They want to make sure, and Ican tell you, the the mission of
the drill instructors in officercandidate school, they're all
former Paris Island or or SanDiego drill instructors.
They go to officer candidateschool because they have one job
weed out anybody that isn't fitto lead them.
And that, you know, the MarineCorps, everybody thinks it's a
(17:59):
bunch of crazy guys, and it kindof is, but you know that red
stripe on their on their dressblues?
Have you seen that stripe?
Yeah, only officers and NCOswear that.
And what I love about the MarineCorps is that they celebrate
failure.
That stripe uh is in memoriam ofthe Battle of Chapultepec, where
I think 50% of the officers andNCOs were killed by a bunch of
(18:20):
15-year-old kids.
I mean, they really got theirbutts kicked, but they're
willing to look at themselves,right?
They're willing to stop,reflect, and look at what we can
do differently, right?
Uh in the Marine Corps, a hotwash matters.
So the ability to think aboutwhat you're doing, to take
responsibility for your actions,and to admit that you're making
(18:41):
mistakes as a leader.
I mean, you're you're a person,and by the way, everybody knows
you made a mistake.
You're kind of an asshole if youdon't admit it.
Right.
So and trust me, it took me along time to get to this place.
I started out as, you know, theformer Marine Sergeant who was
just putting my foot ineverybody's butt.
Uh, and that that works in acrisis.
It doesn't work with highlyskilled, intelligent
(19:02):
professionals who all want to dowhat's right and what's good.
SPEAKER_00 (19:07):
Well, you bring them a lot of different points.
I didn't know all thoseleadership types, but thank you
for sharing that.
One of the things that I alwaysemphasize with anyone who is uh
particularly in the firstresponder world, I remember a
good friend of mine said, youdon't need stripes and stars to
be a leader.
And I remind that constantlybecause people are like, Well,
(19:29):
you know, my sergeant, mylieutenant, I'm like, wham,
wham, wham.
I'm not quite that bad, butsometimes if it's someone I
really know, I go, wham, wham,wham, what are you doing?
Yeah.
And um I know that people mightsay that's not a very
compassionate statement from atherapist, it's a lot more
compassionate than people know.
Because I think that what youyou know, I tell people that as
a therapist, sometimes peoplesay, Oh, you're like my friend.
(19:51):
I'm like, I'm a paid friend, butyeah, sure, okay, I'm your
friend, and I'm friendly withyou, but that doesn't mean I'm
gonna pull a punch for you.
And I think that that's whereyou know you talked about the
type of leadership, you know, Ireally admire is that
leadership, also the one thingthat I think you do, and correct
me if I'm wrong, don't yes me ifyou don't believe it.
(20:11):
If you believe in what I'msaying, say it.
But if you're just gonna yes meto make me happy, including my
clients, I'm like, no, I'm aflawed human being, I don't know
everything.
Please freaking help me here.
Because if you're like, oh yeah,that's great, and you never
practice it, or you're justfucking annoyed with me, that
doesn't work.
And yeah, you can always swearon this podcast, there's no
problem with that.
But the point is, is I thinkthat what you're talking about
(20:33):
leadership is so importantbecause people don't quite get
it.
Uh being a stars and stripestype of person is one thing, but
if you're not able to takefeedback from people, that's not
the leadership I want to workon.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Exactly.
You know, I I think that'sthat's absolutely uh one of the
core principles of leadershipthat most people gloss over.
Um I I I do a monthly town hallon uh on a Teams call because
we're so geographicallydispersed, we have people
sitting in skiffs all day.
Uh, and I'll take questions inadvance.
And the harder the question, theuh honestly, the the better it
(21:10):
is.
And I actually have oneindividual who challenges me
every month.
I call him my communistagitator.
Uh but as far as I'm concerned,that's a compliment.
You know, it's funny.
Uh I learned uh I I would tellyou, I learned a couple of years
ago a new a new phrase.
It's called professional CEO,right?
There are founder CEOs, and thenthere are professional CEOs.
And someone gave me thecompliment of calling me a
(21:31):
professional CEO.
But I will tell you that thelast thing a professional CEO
hears before he gets fired orshe gets fired is good news.
Good news makes my ass itch.
Bad news is actionable.
Bad news, I can do it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
I know what you're saying, though.
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
Bring me bad, bring me bad news, and I will reward
you.
And when you do that for people,you'd be surprised.
Uh bad bosses are everywhere.
You know, if you can just be anabove-average boss, you will get
loyalty like you you wouldn'tbelieve.
One of the one of the measuresthat I have for my own
leadership, uh, I have this,well, I probably don't have it
anywhere close.
I have an 11 by 14 envelopefilled with thank you cards of
(22:10):
over the last 25 years.
And not a single one is from anemployee.
They're from employee spouses.
When you know you're doing wellwhen somebody's wife or husband
says, Hey, can you make him worklate again?
Because I really enjoyed thereward you gave him.
Or thank you for doing this.
You know, if we have an employeeand your immediate family member
uh gets injured or passes away,we're going to the funeral.
(22:31):
You're gonna see us.
You're gonna, you know, we don'twe don't send birthday cards
that are form letters.
We once a month, the entireleadership team sits down and
writes out uh birthday notes.
Um first year I got here, theChristmas cards had pictures of
the executives on them, likeBrady Butch.
And I called my wife and I said,if you got this, how would you,
what would you feel?
(22:52):
And she's like, that's stupid.
So now all the Christmas cardshave pictures of employees.
I mean, it seems simple, but ifyou're not willing to listen to
people, if you're not willing tosay, tell me what's right here.
Look, I'm I'm 64 years old.
We're not necessarily in thesame age category.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
You I just We're the same generation, though.
SPEAKER_01 (23:09):
Yeah, basically.
I I don't know what it's like.
I mean, I I came up uh as aprogrammer, a DBA, a project
manager.
I've done every job you can haveexcept finance or HR, because no
one believes that I can count asa Marine, and you don't want me
around an HR function.
That's just not going to work.
But every other job I've done,but I don't know what it's like
to sit in a Cube.
I just don't.
(23:29):
So one of the things, one of thetechniques that I've always I've
always used in every companythat I've run is I I create
what's called an employeeadvisory council.
They're like my union shopstores.
They're non-managementemployees, they meet once a
month, they they build their ownagenda, but their job, they have
one mission, and that is to tellme how to make this the best
company in the world to workfor.
(23:50):
Now we may never be, but askingthe question is what matters.
And so things like paternityleave, which we never had, and I
would never think of.
I, you know, my daughter's 29years old.
Why would I be thinking aboutpaternity leave?
But last year our EAC, you know,called me up and said, hey,
listen, we think paternity leavebe important.
We have, you know, a lot ofpeople who are in uh, you know,
they're at the at the age wherethey're having children and we
(24:12):
don't really make room for dadsto get time off and call a CFO
and three weeks later, boom,paternity leave.
Right?
A dialogue, right?
That's what leadership is.
SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
And I would tell you, let me just give you one
last sort of thing that Ilearned in the uh and and I just
I I want you to go with that,but I just want to repeat and
emphasize what you just said.
You are a CEO, you are someonein the executive zone, but
you're willing to take feedback.
And if it's valid, you willvalidate it.
I think that's the other partthat people have to understand.
(24:43):
And this I'm sending out to theleaders that are not listening
to people.
That doesn't mean they're alwaysright, but you need to be able
to receive that feedback.
And I think it's important forme because in the last few
episodes before yours, I've beentelling, like, look, leadership
sometimes fucking sucks.
84% of my first respondersreport that their biggest
stressors is administrationbetrayal because of lack of
(25:05):
communication or listening.
So I want to follow upconstantly about that because
leadership is what makes orbreaks a team, whether it's a
department, a platoon, acompany, I don't really give a
crap where you're talking about.
But if your leadership is notwhat you just described, you are
(25:25):
destined to fail.
And that's for all those headsof departments that tell me,
well, you know, I have thesestripes and I have these stars
and I have blah, blah, blah.
I go, yeah, that's nice.
I have a piece of paper on thewall that says I have a master.
That doesn't make me smart.
So anyway, I'm sorry, I had tointerrupt.
SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
Oh, not at all.
No, no, no.
So I often uh we teachleadership here at IW.
We have a uh and our and we makeour leaders teach leadership.
Um, but one of the questionsalways comes up is well, what's
the difference betweenleadership and management?
And I I don't want to talk aboutthat, right?
Management is nothing more thanminimization of deviation from
plan.
Management is quantitative.
(26:02):
Uh you either make a number oryou don't.
You you meet a deadline or youdon't.
You achieve a goal or you don't.
It's it's normally veryquantitative.
Leadership is about minimizationof deviation from plan.
And what is leadership?
Leadership is about gettingeveryone else so inspired by
your plan that they execute itlike it's theirs.
No one wants to do my plan.
(26:23):
No one cares what I think.
They want to be part of it, theywant to own it, they want to
create something.
People are most people are arecreative and they they want to
be part of something bigger thanthemselves.
Our job is to give them asleaders an opportunity to
actually become something biggerthan themselves, to be a part of
something.
And that's a little difficult,especially now that we have
(26:44):
people geographically dispersedand post uh post-pandemic,
people are you know all over theplace.
My my uh executive leadershipteam, I think if you add it all
up, I think we live in fourdifferent states.
Once a month, we absolutely seeeach other from morning until uh
until dinner.
But other than that, you know,we have to rely on the uh uh
(27:05):
various communication modalitiesor we'll meet each other at a at
a customer location.
But that whole notion ofunderstanding that while
management is very important,look, we're you know, we're a
for-profit business, we have tomake money.
Uh management is a is essentialto that.
But leadership is what makesmanagement meaningful, it's the
context in which managementworks.
SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
And I think you can have and we that it's very
important for people tounderstand that.
And I appreciate you sayingthat.
But as we wrap up here, becausewe're getting close to the hour
uh between the two interviews, Iwould like, you know, I'm gonna
put it all in the show notes howto reach uh, especially for the
app.
I think it's very important.
I'm gonna put the leadfrog linkif I can find it for Amazon, uh,
(27:48):
because I think that's also veryimportant.
SPEAKER_01 (27:50):
Oh, that's unsealed.
SPEAKER_00 (27:51):
Unsealed.
SPEAKER_01 (27:52):
Oh, leadfrog is a show.
Unsealed is a link.
SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
Unsealed.
All right.
Well, how about you tell me whatelse?
Uh, where do you want people tocontact you, be interested in
your products, stuff like that?
SPEAKER_01 (28:03):
Well, I'll tell you a couple of things.
Uh try the try the technology.
Uh go to the website, get thelink to the app store.
It's absolutely free for 30days.
If you like it, you know, youcan purchase different modules.
More importantly, if uh I Ithink I mentioned earlier, we um
we have a process now where wecan collect information from
(28:24):
from your EEG and personalize uhthe the signals for an
individual.
And if you would like to be partof a study, when we're
conducting, we're alwaysconducting studies around this.
We want to make sure that this,you know, we're doing the best
we can for people.
Uh, you can send an email tostudies at peaknoro.com and give
us uh we'll we'll send you areply asking for some
(28:46):
demographic information.
Uh, you know, typically we'relooking for uh as much
homogeneity in a study group aswe can.
Uh so we do studies withmilitary people, we do studies
with first responders.
If you're a first responder,we'd like to know are you a
fireman?
Are you an EMT?
Are you a policeman?
Because those, you know, wereally get down to that level of
detail.
(29:07):
But if if you'd like toparticipate in that, uh it can
be actually pretty interesting.
Get to try some some cool stuff.
And the side effects are alsointeresting as well.
I would tell you that thedifference between having a
resilient psyche and havingcognitive resilience and what a
Tibetan Buddhist monk looks likewhen they're meditating is very
(29:30):
small.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
Right.
I guarantee it.
SPEAKER_01 (29:33):
So you'll you'll enjoy the side effects.
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
Well, I'm I'm happy to put in also the studies at uh
peakneural.com.
I will definitely put that inthe show notes.
But I want to thank you, youknow, Tony.
Again, this is coming out duringuh you know, right around
Veterans Day.
And I hope my veterans who arealso first responders are
listening and I hope they reachout.
I think this peak neural umstuff is extremely important and
(29:59):
that's That is to me when youtalk about psychotherapy versus
pre P Neuro, there's no versesin my opinion.
No, no, no.
They work together.
They work together.
And if one works better than theother, all for it.
And if not both of them togetherworks for you, again, all for
it.
We're not here to discriminate.
But I am a big fan of this and Ireally want to thank you for
your time.
SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
By the way, do you know why Veterans Day is
November 11th?
SPEAKER_00 (30:22):
My dad used it 1111 1918, if I remember correctly.
Is that it?
SPEAKER_01 (30:29):
Nope.
That's that's not my definition.
The Marine Corps birthday, bythe way, it's our 250th.
SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
But I think the Marine Corps is the day before.
SPEAKER_01 (30:36):
That's right.
And so we needed Veterans Day sowe could all get some sleep
because we're out all partyingthe night before.
SPEAKER_00 (30:42):
So that it is true that in training you're bringing
the alcohol in.
That's the that's what you said.
You said that didn't happen, butnow you you just gave it away.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Well, I said we.
That's the that's the generalweight, not necessarily me.
SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
And uh I'll tell you off-air a great story about
Mount Fuji and one of myMarines.
But anyway, I really thank youfor your time.
I will put all this in the shownotes, and I hope uh you get a
lot of feedback from my guys,and uh thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Have a great day.
SPEAKER_02 (31:11):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
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A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
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If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
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If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(31:34):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
You're listening to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Beastle.
We're here to strengthen firstresponder mental health,
supporting police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics as
they build resilience and thrivein high-stress careers.
Let's dive in.ai.
SPEAKER_00 (00:37):
You heard me talk about it.
I'm gonna keep on talking aboutit because I love it.
I've had about a year and ahalf, 18 months practice with
it, and I still enjoy it.
And it saves me time and itsaves me energy.
Free.ai takes your note, makes atrans of what you're talking
about a client, just pressrecord.
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(00:57):
objective with a letter ifneeded for your client and for
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SPEAKER_00 (01:35):
Get free from even writing your uh transcripts.
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Uh free.ai, a great service.
Go to get free.ai and you willget one of the best services
that will save you time andmoney.
And I highly encourage you to doso.
Well, welcome back to theepisode.
(01:57):
I'm here with Tony Crescenzo,and for those of you who missed
the first part, go back andlisten to it because this
episode 230 is reallyfascinating.
We're talking about differentthings.
We we left off in the firstepisode in regards to we were
talking about how we can this inabout a month works.
You know, the first thought Ihad, and this is with all due
respect to all my guys who arefirst responders at military.
(02:21):
A month's way too long, Tony.
What the hell are you talkingabout?
I gotta get better today.
What the hell, man?
Why am I gonna have to wait amonth?
I know you talked about yoursleep and what I got from that
too.
And please elaborate as youwish, but I think that the other
part too is that you don't, youknow, you take a pill, you're
gonna sleep, but you're notgonna get to the REM sleep,
(02:41):
you're not gonna get therestorative sleep, you're not
gonna get what you want.
But getting back to therestorative sleep is not a
one-day pro like thing.
And I think that a lot of peoplestruggle with that.
So maybe you can expand a littlemore in regards to that.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
No, it's a it's a great question.
And what I meant by uh, I thinkthe average is 28 to 31 days, is
where this becomes what we calltrait level, not state level.
So if you've ever listened toBrain FM or Endel or Calm uh or
what's the other one, Headspace.
I think um Headspace.
One of them is one of them isjust guided meditation, there's
(03:16):
no signals in it.
Or if you listen to the expandapp, um, what you'll you know,
what you'll find is that you'llfeel good for a half hour until
the exercise is over.
And then you go, your brain justsnaps back to the way it was.
Um the difference is is when youuse and you you you you'd have
to dedicate some time to it,it's about a half hour a day.
(03:36):
Uh and if you want to sleep atnight, you just put on the sleep
thing.
You can play it on a stereo.
You don't need uh you don't evenneed headphones.
SPEAKER_00 (03:42):
Uh stereo, you just give away your age.
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
That's okay.
I I don't mind.
You know, we're trying to helppeople here.
I'm not I'm not sellingheadphones anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (03:50):
I just want to I just wanted to note that because
my kids like stereo, what'sthat?
SPEAKER_01 (03:55):
So you go as long as you play it on a speaker, you'd
be okay.
It sounds like airplane noise,it sounds like white noise.
Um you you feel the effects onday one, but they become
cumulative, and your brainactually changes.
You get what's called, so whenyou do it on day one, you get a
state level change.
30 minutes later, boy, I feelgood for a couple hours.
(04:15):
And on day two, boy, I feel goodfor a couple hours and a few
minutes, and so on and so on,until somewhere around the uh
28th to 31st day, we start tosee these changes occur and they
stick.
Um, as I said, I I haven'tlistened to the sleep signals
for a year and a half, and Istill sleep 50% restorative
(04:37):
because my brain is now changed.
Now, I all you know I'm alsotesting all the new stuff that
we do, and I'm typically intraining uh uh you know at least
once a day anyway, just becauseit's it's the the work that we
do.
But the the difference betweenthis and anything else is that
after about a month, you'regonna find that you don't need
it as much.
It's not something that you haveto live with.
Think of it this way (04:57):
if you want to get fit, you're and
let's say you start with uhbarbell curls, you're gonna get
some big biceps, but yourtriceps are gonna maybe not be
so great, or your chest.
So you'll do that and thenyou'll move on to chest, and
then you move on to somethingelse.
And basically, it's an e it'sreally a never-ending process.
You what I found is you get tothe point where you sleep well,
(05:18):
and then you're like, well, whatelse can I do?
Well, you know, maybe I'd liketo think better, maybe I'd like
my reaction time to be faster,maybe I'd like to upregulate,
you know, to the point that wecan downregulate you
post-trauma.
We can also, you know, we'reworking with uh uh some
classified customers on keepingcombat troops, uh keeping troops
effective, combat effective onthree hours of sleep.
(05:41):
And the way we do that is it's aI won't get into the details
here, but essentially we workbackwards from the problem of
two marine lance corporalssitting in a sitting in a
fighting hole, two hours on, twohours off on watch.
The guy who's two hours offisn't really getting any good
sleep at two hours, but we canmimic in your brain what that
sleep looks like, which is verylow delta, and then increase
(06:03):
your ability to be lucid so ifsomebody comes sneaking up on
your position, you can hear it.
Uh so the ability to up and downregulate are two different
things.
I tested something yesterday, itwas kind of funny.
We do this with an EEG in ourlab, and I was testing some up
upregulation uh technology, andI had a hell of a time going to
sleep last night.
It was like six hours later, andI'm thinking to myself, I always
(06:25):
fall asleep in like threebreaths.
This what's going on?
And I had to run downstairs andgo look at the results of uh the
exercises that I tested.
And I guess good news is theywork and they last for a while.
Bad news is you got to becareful when you use them.
SPEAKER_00 (06:39):
Uh so you know, I want to add a couple of things
here for for the audience tounderstand why change takes that
that time.
There's two things that are wellknown in my field is that it
takes at least 21 days for achange, and the important part
is at least 21.
And I tell people, like, if youdon't give it three weeks, and
that's the bare minimum, you'rea really fast learner if it's
(07:02):
three weeks.
It it's really rare that peopledo it within 21.
The other very important one isit takes at least seven
repetitions of the same thing inorder to really sink into your
brain, and that's not me sayingthat, that's neurology saying
that.
So I think that what I I thinkit was important not only to add
to what you were saying is thatthose two stats are just like
well known, well proven.
(07:23):
So 28 days isn't that that slow.
I I think it's pretty fast.
And you know, coming to therapywith me, and then they come in
for six weeks, and sometimesthey'll be like, Why haven't
changed?
I said, What type of effort haveyou made outside that hour?
And they're like, uh, and I'mlike, exactly.
I mean, I go to therapy myself,but it's not like my therapist,
like I go, all right, I had myone hour, I'm better.
(07:45):
I gotta think about what mytherapist said, put some things
in place.
Some of it works, some of itdoesn't.
And when you're dealing withthis type of uh peak neural
stuff and what you're talkingabout, I think it's fascinating
because it's all good stuff thatreally will bring change.
But I just want to reallyaddress with my audience that
again, knowing your people,cultural competency, yes, it
(08:07):
takes time, but 28 days isn'tthat long.
So just wanted to throw thatout.
SPEAKER_01 (08:12):
Well, if you're a if you're a first responder or a
military veteran, the one thingyou know about is discipline,
and that takes discipline to doit to do it every day for 30
days, it it takes it.
And if you want to change, youcan.
unknown (08:24):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (08:24):
And you'll do it, you'll do it without drugs,
which is really interesting.
Uh one of the experiments wetried, so we took a veteran on a
ketamine journey.
Uh veterans love uh, I think oneof the one of the uh clear
winners in treating PTSD is ispsychedelics.
It's new, but there are manythat either can't or don't want
to take uh a psychedelic.
(08:46):
So we reverse engineered thebrainwaves of a veteran on
ketamine and put that into uh anentrainment package, and it
actually works.
It takes a couple of tries.
You can't do it on the firstone, or most people can't, but
after two or three of those,man, you you really get the
experience.
It's it's interesting.
SPEAKER_00 (09:02):
That's perfect.
I really like that because Ithink that that's what we need
to learn to do is to adapt.
I think you talk we talked aboutadaptation the first part.
I always think about adaptationas a need in general for life.
The other part that youmentioned that I, you know, one
of the things that you talkabout that is, you know, you had
a therapist and you know, he hadto take, he's like, you know
(09:24):
what, you're triggering me.
I think that one of the thingsthat I want to share with people
is that I I really like whatPeak Neuro is doing.
But if you do have a therapistthat is being truthful and says
that to you, respect it.
And vice versa, if the therapistis not able to handle it,
respect that and tell them that,okay, great, I'll find someone
else who's culturally competentor someone else who's like that.
Um the reason why I mentionedthat is I see too many military
(09:48):
personnel who you know end up inmy couch eventually.
I'm like, you're this fifth guy,and you seem to be understanding
me more than all the other fourcombined.
And I said, Well, it's becausethey may not have had the
cultural competency, maybe youweren't connected to them, maybe
there's something else that wasgoing on, but ultimately being
very mindful of that.
Um, as you as you talk a lotabout this stuff, maybe it's
(10:10):
time to shift a little bit thegears because I want to know a
couple of things.
You're you when you serve, I Ithink that when you have a
marine background in particular,as much as I make fun of my
marine guys sometimes, I love mymarine guys, but it really
there's a something aboutleadership philosophy and the
work that you got to do with theMarines that sometimes can
(10:32):
really fit into a culture of aworkplace, or it could really,
really, really be bad.
Because you are very muchmethodical and disciplined, as
you mentioned.
What how has that shaped yourphilosophy as a guy who's gone
from venture capitalist to yourtreatment to what you're doing
right now?
SPEAKER_01 (10:49):
That's a that's a great question.
Um, you know, it's interesting.
The Marine Corps is differentthan all of the other branches
of the armed services in one,well, in many ways, but I'll
give you the from a leadershipstandpoint in this way.
SPEAKER_00 (11:01):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:01):
Uh, if you're if you enlist in the Air Force, you may
be in the Air Force for 10 yearsbefore you receive one hour of
leadership training.
If you enlist in the Army, youwill not receive leadership
training until you're an NCO.
Same thing with the Navy.
You could be a chief pettyofficer and not receive
leadership training.
Every Marine private whograduates from boot camp and
(11:23):
every Marine second lieutenantwho graduates from officer
candidate school receive exactlythe same training, same
leadership training.
So while every Marine is arifleman, every Marine is also a
leader, and it is an ongoingdaily, everyday exercise in
learning how to lead others.
(11:43):
Now, the difference I think forsome people is there's a much,
there's a there's a pretty biggap between, say, NCO leadership
and uh how general officerslead.
I have uh I have three uhlieutenant generals on my board
at Intelligent Waves.
Um uh Lieutenant General CameronHolt, he's retired from the
United States Air Force,Lieutenant General John Sattler,
(12:05):
who is a retired United StatesMarine, and the commanding
general of the Second Battle ofFallujah, the largest firefight
since Vietnam.
And his boss, uh LieutenantGeneral Tom Metz from the United
States Army, he was the uh chiefof staff of all forces in Iraq,
and General Metz worked for him.
Um, what I can tell you is that,and people ask me this all the
(12:27):
time, every important thing Iever learned about leadership in
my life, I learned in the MarineCorps.
And the entire rest of my careerhas been a validation exercise.
And what that means is it's notreally, and pardon my French,
but you got first responders onthere, it's not really about
putting your foot in people'sass.
Um, the the Marine Corps it hasa very elegant leadership
(12:48):
philosophy.
In fact, if you go to the UnitedStates Naval Academy, you are
required to write what's calleda leader's compass.
And it is your personalleadership philosophy, and it's
something that I've embraced.
Uh my leader's compass is now300 pages, but I distill it down
to two.
And every employee, everycustomer, every board member,
everyone I interact with gets acopy of that for two reasons.
(13:10):
One, it's kind of a primer onhow to work with me.
What I stand for, what I won'tstand for, what I value, um, and
what I would like you to value.
And that's how I'm going to holdyou accountable.
But it's also how you hold meaccountable.
If I tell you that transparencyis important and I'm not
transparent with you, then youshould be able to hold me
accountable.
It's kind of funny.
(13:30):
There's a uh I'm I'm aboutthree-quarters of the way
through a book on leadershipthat starts with really the four
stages.
So you start with leadershipthat's positional.
Uh I'm a corporal, you're aprivate, you do what I say
because I got that stripe overhere.
SPEAKER_00 (13:43):
Right, the stripe, the stripes and stars, right?
SPEAKER_01 (13:45):
Yeah, that's that's leadership by authority, right?
That's uh that's do it because Isay so.
And then, you know, you get alittle bit better and you start
to realize, man, you know, it'sreally about relationships.
You know, I'm I'm I'm gonnadevelop relationships with
people, I'm gonna care aboutthem, uh, I'm gonna introduce
them to people, I'm gonna helpthem grow.
And that's the second stagewhere you become a relational
leader.
But there are limitations tothat as well.
(14:07):
In particular, I would tell youthat there's something they
teach Marine officers that aretrue for business executives.
And it might not be pleasant tohear, but it's true.
To be a good Marine officer andto be a good business executive,
you have to be able to kill thething you love the most, and
that's the people who work foryou.
They're not your friends, right?
They're just not.
But you are responsible for themand everything that they do, and
(14:28):
everything that they fail to dois on you.
So you have to understand thatthat's really from a
responsibility standpoint.
I I love uh Lieutenant GeneralSattler.
He gives a talk.
I'll give him credit because Idon't want anybody to think I
stole his talk.
He calls it generals eat last.
And when you're in the field oryou're in combat operations, you
could be out for 30 days, nothave a shower, living in the
dirt, eating out of a plasticbag, and then one day the chow
(14:51):
truck shows up with hot food.
And you know who eats first?
Privates.
And then corporals, sergeants,then officers, lieutenants,
captains, colonels.
By the time it gets to thegenerals, there's usually coffee
and cake, and that's about it.
But you know what?
That's the way it should be,because privates fight the war.
And so leaders who lead likethat tend to be very successful.
(15:12):
And leaders who decide that, youknow, I think what did uh I
think it was Napoleon who saidthe general's reward isn't a
bigger tent.
It's it's the privilege ofcommand.
It's it's the trust that peopleput in you.
So you go from relationalleadership, where it's all about
who you know, to strategicleadership, which is really
about growing people and helpingthem achieve what they want to
(15:34):
be.
And then I think the fourthlevel, which a lot of people
never get to, is what I callfield effect leadership, where
you don't even have to be in theroom.
The fact that you have imbued onan organization mission, vision,
values, and culture means thatif you're not there, no one
needs to ask.
You know, the what do I fearmost is people having to ask,
what would Tony do?
(15:55):
What would Tony say?
I don't want him to I don't wanthim to ask, I want them to know.
And if they can see me comingfrom a thousand miles away, it
makes it easier for them tooperate.
Because you know, the number onereason people leave companies is
they don't understand what theirboss wants.
Setting and managingexpectations is one of the most
important things a leader cando.
And to do it compassionately uhis difficult, right?
(16:16):
We're all we're all underpressure.
Uh we're in the we're in themiddle of a government shutdown.
I've got hundreds of employeeswho are at risk right now.
And not just the employees, buttheir families.
And yet, if something aggravatesme, I don't get to bite
somebody's ass off.
I mean, I I might do it foreffect because that's you know,
that's part of leadership too,is understanding uh what someone
(16:36):
needs.
Leadership is a conversation,it's a dialogue between the
leader and the led.
And if you listen, people willtell you what they need.
And most often, they don't needyou to yell at them.
They need you to understandthem, they need you to meet them
where they are, and they needyou to bring them where they
need to go.
Um and that to me is is reallythe essence of leadership.
(16:57):
And the Marine Corps is a lotlike that.
Yes, I, you know, I don't knowif anyone's watched that show
Boots on Netflix.
It's yeah, viral now.
You know, there's some crazystuff in there that doesn't make
sense.
No one ever lets you havealcohol in the Marine Corps boot
camp.
And drill instructors are notnice to you.
They might they might actuallybe nice to you like the last
day, but for the most part, thatthat's pretty real.
But you'll notice in that inthat in that series that there
(17:21):
are times when the drillinstructors are very
compassionate, when theyunderstand what's going on,
because they've been there.
Their job is to make Marines.
And one of the things that Ilearned very early in boot camp
and in officer candidate school,I've been a graduate of both, is
they're gonna beat you until itdoesn't affect you anymore.
SPEAKER_00 (17:39):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (17:39):
And then then they'll leave you alone to go
bother somebody else.
They want to make sure, and Ican tell you, the the mission of
the drill instructors in officercandidate school, they're all
former Paris Island or or SanDiego drill instructors.
They go to officer candidateschool because they have one job
weed out anybody that isn't fitto lead them.
And that, you know, the MarineCorps, everybody thinks it's a
(17:59):
bunch of crazy guys, and it kindof is, but you know that red
stripe on their on their dressblues?
Have you seen that stripe?
Yeah, only officers and NCOswear that.
And what I love about the MarineCorps is that they celebrate
failure.
That stripe uh is in memoriam ofthe Battle of Chapultepec, where
I think 50% of the officers andNCOs were killed by a bunch of
(18:20):
15-year-old kids.
I mean, they really got theirbutts kicked, but they're
willing to look at themselves,right?
They're willing to stop,reflect, and look at what we can
do differently, right?
Uh in the Marine Corps, a hotwash matters.
So the ability to think aboutwhat you're doing, to take
responsibility for your actions,and to admit that you're making
(18:41):
mistakes as a leader.
I mean, you're you're a person,and by the way, everybody knows
you made a mistake.
You're kind of an asshole if youdon't admit it.
Right.
So and trust me, it took me along time to get to this place.
I started out as, you know, theformer Marine Sergeant who was
just putting my foot ineverybody's butt.
Uh, and that that works in acrisis.
It doesn't work with highlyskilled, intelligent
(19:02):
professionals who all want to dowhat's right and what's good.
SPEAKER_00 (19:07):
Well, you bring them a lot of different points.
I didn't know all thoseleadership types, but thank you
for sharing that.
One of the things that I alwaysemphasize with anyone who is uh
particularly in the firstresponder world, I remember a
good friend of mine said, youdon't need stripes and stars to
be a leader.
And I remind that constantlybecause people are like, Well,
(19:29):
you know, my sergeant, mylieutenant, I'm like, wham,
wham, wham.
I'm not quite that bad, butsometimes if it's someone I
really know, I go, wham, wham,wham, what are you doing?
Yeah.
And um I know that people mightsay that's not a very
compassionate statement from atherapist, it's a lot more
compassionate than people know.
Because I think that what youyou know, I tell people that as
a therapist, sometimes peoplesay, Oh, you're like my friend.
(19:51):
I'm like, I'm a paid friend, butyeah, sure, okay, I'm your
friend, and I'm friendly withyou, but that doesn't mean I'm
gonna pull a punch for you.
And I think that that's whereyou know you talked about the
type of leadership, you know, Ireally admire is that
leadership, also the one thingthat I think you do, and correct
me if I'm wrong, don't yes me ifyou don't believe it.
(20:11):
If you believe in what I'msaying, say it.
But if you're just gonna yes meto make me happy, including my
clients, I'm like, no, I'm aflawed human being, I don't know
everything.
Please freaking help me here.
Because if you're like, oh yeah,that's great, and you never
practice it, or you're justfucking annoyed with me, that
doesn't work.
And yeah, you can always swearon this podcast, there's no
problem with that.
But the point is, is I thinkthat what you're talking about
(20:33):
leadership is so importantbecause people don't quite get
it.
Uh being a stars and stripestype of person is one thing, but
if you're not able to takefeedback from people, that's not
the leadership I want to workon.
SPEAKER_01 (20:47):
Exactly.
You know, I I think that'sthat's absolutely uh one of the
core principles of leadershipthat most people gloss over.
Um I I I do a monthly town hallon uh on a Teams call because
we're so geographicallydispersed, we have people
sitting in skiffs all day.
Uh, and I'll take questions inadvance.
And the harder the question, theuh honestly, the the better it
(21:10):
is.
And I actually have oneindividual who challenges me
every month.
I call him my communistagitator.
Uh but as far as I'm concerned,that's a compliment.
You know, it's funny.
Uh I learned uh I I would tellyou, I learned a couple of years
ago a new a new phrase.
It's called professional CEO,right?
There are founder CEOs, and thenthere are professional CEOs.
And someone gave me thecompliment of calling me a
(21:31):
professional CEO.
But I will tell you that thelast thing a professional CEO
hears before he gets fired orshe gets fired is good news.
Good news makes my ass itch.
Bad news is actionable.
Bad news, I can do it.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
I know what you're saying, though.
SPEAKER_01 (21:47):
Bring me bad, bring me bad news, and I will reward
you.
And when you do that for people,you'd be surprised.
Uh bad bosses are everywhere.
You know, if you can just be anabove-average boss, you will get
loyalty like you you wouldn'tbelieve.
One of the one of the measuresthat I have for my own
leadership, uh, I have this,well, I probably don't have it
anywhere close.
I have an 11 by 14 envelopefilled with thank you cards of
(22:10):
over the last 25 years.
And not a single one is from anemployee.
They're from employee spouses.
When you know you're doing wellwhen somebody's wife or husband
says, Hey, can you make him worklate again?
Because I really enjoyed thereward you gave him.
Or thank you for doing this.
You know, if we have an employeeand your immediate family member
uh gets injured or passes away,we're going to the funeral.
(22:31):
You're gonna see us.
You're gonna, you know, we don'twe don't send birthday cards
that are form letters.
We once a month, the entireleadership team sits down and
writes out uh birthday notes.
Um first year I got here, theChristmas cards had pictures of
the executives on them, likeBrady Butch.
And I called my wife and I said,if you got this, how would you,
what would you feel?
(22:52):
And she's like, that's stupid.
So now all the Christmas cardshave pictures of employees.
I mean, it seems simple, but ifyou're not willing to listen to
people, if you're not willing tosay, tell me what's right here.
Look, I'm I'm 64 years old.
We're not necessarily in thesame age category.
SPEAKER_00 (23:06):
You I just We're the same generation, though.
SPEAKER_01 (23:09):
Yeah, basically.
I I don't know what it's like.
I mean, I I came up uh as aprogrammer, a DBA, a project
manager.
I've done every job you can haveexcept finance or HR, because no
one believes that I can count asa Marine, and you don't want me
around an HR function.
That's just not going to work.
But every other job I've done,but I don't know what it's like
to sit in a Cube.
I just don't.
(23:29):
So one of the things, one of thetechniques that I've always I've
always used in every companythat I've run is I I create
what's called an employeeadvisory council.
They're like my union shopstores.
They're non-managementemployees, they meet once a
month, they they build their ownagenda, but their job, they have
one mission, and that is to tellme how to make this the best
company in the world to workfor.
(23:50):
Now we may never be, but askingthe question is what matters.
And so things like paternityleave, which we never had, and I
would never think of.
I, you know, my daughter's 29years old.
Why would I be thinking aboutpaternity leave?
But last year our EAC, you know,called me up and said, hey,
listen, we think paternity leavebe important.
We have, you know, a lot ofpeople who are in uh, you know,
they're at the at the age wherethey're having children and we
(24:12):
don't really make room for dadsto get time off and call a CFO
and three weeks later, boom,paternity leave.
Right?
A dialogue, right?
That's what leadership is.
SPEAKER_00 (24:21):
And I would tell you, let me just give you one
last sort of thing that Ilearned in the uh and and I just
I I want you to go with that,but I just want to repeat and
emphasize what you just said.
You are a CEO, you are someonein the executive zone, but
you're willing to take feedback.
And if it's valid, you willvalidate it.
I think that's the other partthat people have to understand.
(24:43):
And this I'm sending out to theleaders that are not listening
to people.
That doesn't mean they're alwaysright, but you need to be able
to receive that feedback.
And I think it's important forme because in the last few
episodes before yours, I've beentelling, like, look, leadership
sometimes fucking sucks.
84% of my first respondersreport that their biggest
stressors is administrationbetrayal because of lack of
(25:05):
communication or listening.
So I want to follow upconstantly about that because
leadership is what makes orbreaks a team, whether it's a
department, a platoon, acompany, I don't really give a
crap where you're talking about.
But if your leadership is notwhat you just described, you are
(25:25):
destined to fail.
And that's for all those headsof departments that tell me,
well, you know, I have thesestripes and I have these stars
and I have blah, blah, blah.
I go, yeah, that's nice.
I have a piece of paper on thewall that says I have a master.
That doesn't make me smart.
So anyway, I'm sorry, I had tointerrupt.
SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
Oh, not at all.
No, no, no.
So I often uh we teachleadership here at IW.
We have a uh and our and we makeour leaders teach leadership.
Um, but one of the questionsalways comes up is well, what's
the difference betweenleadership and management?
And I I don't want to talk aboutthat, right?
Management is nothing more thanminimization of deviation from
plan.
Management is quantitative.
(26:02):
Uh you either make a number oryou don't.
You you meet a deadline or youdon't.
You achieve a goal or you don't.
It's it's normally veryquantitative.
Leadership is about minimizationof deviation from plan.
And what is leadership?
Leadership is about gettingeveryone else so inspired by
your plan that they execute itlike it's theirs.
No one wants to do my plan.
(26:23):
No one cares what I think.
They want to be part of it, theywant to own it, they want to
create something.
People are most people are arecreative and they they want to
be part of something bigger thanthemselves.
Our job is to give them asleaders an opportunity to
actually become something biggerthan themselves, to be a part of
something.
And that's a little difficult,especially now that we have
(26:44):
people geographically dispersedand post uh post-pandemic,
people are you know all over theplace.
My my uh executive leadershipteam, I think if you add it all
up, I think we live in fourdifferent states.
Once a month, we absolutely seeeach other from morning until uh
until dinner.
But other than that, you know,we have to rely on the uh uh
(27:05):
various communication modalitiesor we'll meet each other at a at
a customer location.
But that whole notion ofunderstanding that while
management is very important,look, we're you know, we're a
for-profit business, we have tomake money.
Uh management is a is essentialto that.
But leadership is what makesmanagement meaningful, it's the
context in which managementworks.
SPEAKER_00 (27:26):
And I think you can have and we that it's very
important for people tounderstand that.
And I appreciate you sayingthat.
But as we wrap up here, becausewe're getting close to the hour
uh between the two interviews, Iwould like, you know, I'm gonna
put it all in the show notes howto reach uh, especially for the
app.
I think it's very important.
I'm gonna put the leadfrog linkif I can find it for Amazon, uh,
(27:48):
because I think that's also veryimportant.
SPEAKER_01 (27:50):
Oh, that's unsealed.
SPEAKER_00 (27:51):
Unsealed.
SPEAKER_01 (27:52):
Oh, leadfrog is a show.
Unsealed is a link.
SPEAKER_00 (27:55):
Unsealed.
All right.
Well, how about you tell me whatelse?
Uh, where do you want people tocontact you, be interested in
your products, stuff like that?
SPEAKER_01 (28:03):
Well, I'll tell you a couple of things.
Uh try the try the technology.
Uh go to the website, get thelink to the app store.
It's absolutely free for 30days.
If you like it, you know, youcan purchase different modules.
More importantly, if uh I Ithink I mentioned earlier, we um
we have a process now where wecan collect information from
(28:24):
from your EEG and personalize uhthe the signals for an
individual.
And if you would like to be partof a study, when we're
conducting, we're alwaysconducting studies around this.
We want to make sure that this,you know, we're doing the best
we can for people.
Uh, you can send an email tostudies at peaknoro.com and give
us uh we'll we'll send you areply asking for some
(28:46):
demographic information.
Uh, you know, typically we'relooking for uh as much
homogeneity in a study group aswe can.
Uh so we do studies withmilitary people, we do studies
with first responders.
If you're a first responder,we'd like to know are you a
fireman?
Are you an EMT?
Are you a policeman?
Because those, you know, wereally get down to that level of
detail.
(29:07):
But if if you'd like toparticipate in that, uh it can
be actually pretty interesting.
Get to try some some cool stuff.
And the side effects are alsointeresting as well.
I would tell you that thedifference between having a
resilient psyche and havingcognitive resilience and what a
Tibetan Buddhist monk looks likewhen they're meditating is very
(29:30):
small.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
Right.
I guarantee it.
SPEAKER_01 (29:33):
So you'll you'll enjoy the side effects.
SPEAKER_00 (29:35):
Well, I'm I'm happy to put in also the studies at uh
peakneural.com.
I will definitely put that inthe show notes.
But I want to thank you, youknow, Tony.
Again, this is coming out duringuh you know, right around
Veterans Day.
And I hope my veterans who arealso first responders are
listening and I hope they reachout.
I think this peak neural umstuff is extremely important and
(29:59):
that's That is to me when youtalk about psychotherapy versus
pre P Neuro, there's no versesin my opinion.
No, no, no.
They work together.
They work together.
And if one works better than theother, all for it.
And if not both of them togetherworks for you, again, all for
it.
We're not here to discriminate.
But I am a big fan of this and Ireally want to thank you for
your time.
SPEAKER_01 (30:19):
By the way, do you know why Veterans Day is
November 11th?
SPEAKER_00 (30:22):
My dad used it 1111 1918, if I remember correctly.
Is that it?
SPEAKER_01 (30:29):
Nope.
That's that's not my definition.
The Marine Corps birthday, bythe way, it's our 250th.
SPEAKER_00 (30:34):
But I think the Marine Corps is the day before.
SPEAKER_01 (30:36):
That's right.
And so we needed Veterans Day sowe could all get some sleep
because we're out all partyingthe night before.
SPEAKER_00 (30:42):
So that it is true that in training you're bringing
the alcohol in.
That's the that's what you said.
You said that didn't happen, butnow you you just gave it away.
SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
Well, I said we.
That's the that's the generalweight, not necessarily me.
SPEAKER_00 (30:54):
And uh I'll tell you off-air a great story about
Mount Fuji and one of myMarines.
But anyway, I really thank youfor your time.
I will put all this in the shownotes, and I hope uh you get a
lot of feedback from my guys,and uh thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Have a great day.
SPEAKER_02 (31:11):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(31:34):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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