December 9, 2025 • 29 mins
What does it take to build mental health care that first responders actually trust? We sit down with former Revere police officer Joe Rizzuti, whose journey from stacked line-of-duty trauma and alcohol use to peer support leadership strips away the clichés and gets to what works. Joe’s story starts with a tough childhood, a military turnaround, and a policing career shaped by high-stakes cases and a deep love for community. It also includes administrative betrayals, devastating calls, and the moment he walked into On-Site Academy expecting a firearms range and found a lifeline instead.
From there, Joe breaks down how cultural competence changes outcomes. If a clinician doesn’t understand roll call, shift work, gallows humor, and the weight of cumulative stress, trust collapses. He explains how he vets treatment programs—On-Site for acute resets, First Responder Wellness in California for intensive trauma work, and union-aligned options like IAFF Centers of Excellence—while calling out profit-first models that fail responders. We talk insurance constraints, travel realities, and why credibility is earned one referral at a time.
We also tackle the retiree cliff and why too many officers and firefighters struggle within five years of leaving the job. Joe’s answer: a coaching model adapted from recovery support that restores purpose, routine, and community long before the badge comes off. The takeaway is clear—care must be team-driven, ego-free, and relentlessly practical. If you lead, remove barriers. If you treat, learn the culture. If you’re a peer, keep checking in long after the headlines fade.
If you are interested, please visit the Onsite academy at https://onsiteacademy.org/
Visit the NEPBA at https://www.nepba.org/
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development and
Action with Steve Beast Home.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police hire EMS,discounters, and parametics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
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(00:51):
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Well, hi, and welcome to episode233 of Resilience Development in
(01:12):
Action.
If you haven't been listening,episode 232 is with Douglas
Wyman.
I don't know if you know him,but uh he's a police chief,
correctional staff guy.
He's a trainer, he's been in themilitary, he's got all this
experience, so it's really cool.
Uh so I hope you enjoyed thatepisode.
But episode 233 is going to bewith Joe Rizzutti.
Joe, Joe and I have been tryingto get in contact for years.
(01:35):
Yeah.
Three years.
We've known each other.
And you know what's funny is I Ishare this story because I think
it's funny.
Um, they they say the same thingabout me, so that's why I like
that.
I was like, here's Joe's number.
He's a little rough around theedges, but you can give him a
call.
Yeah.
And I'm like, oh okay, that'snot a good presentation.
I call you up, and we had aconversation for 30 minutes the
first time without evenstopping.
SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
Uh so for me, I always think like, do people
really like pay attention?
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
Because like I I I wear it as a badge of honor.
I grew up in the city ofRiviera.
I was a Riviera police officer,one of the greatest police
departments, I think, in thecountry.
I've been through a lot in mylife.
Um, I got into mental health tohelp the first responders.
Um, not a big fan of some of thepeople in your profession.
Okay.
And the way they look at ourprofession.
And uh I'm not gonna change whoI am.
(02:23):
That's who makes me who I am,and I think I'm pretty effective
of staying true to myself.
And that's what we're teachingpeople, so that's why I am not
I'm not gonna change.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
Whenever you get it, well, after this, because I this
is a private conversation I hadwith someone, I'll explain how
some of these therapists arecompletely clueless as to what
you guys do.
We need them and we love them,but I don't want to put someone
on the spot because I know theylisten, so if you know who you
are, then you can yell at me,but I'm not sharing the story
here.
Uh, but Joe, you know, I feellike I've got to know you.
(02:53):
We just had like 30 minutes ofconversation, we're not even
trying.
But uh, I don't think myaudience knows who you are, so
can you introduce yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
So you know, I grew up uh you know Italian American
in if you think of the Sopranos,um that you that's not too much
power what Rivera was.
Uh I grew up in the 70s.
Uh dad walked out, two-bit wiseguy, you know.
Um, and uh, you know, mygrandfather who worked for the
DPW, great uh great guy.
(03:19):
My uncle, one of my heroes, wasa firefighter.
Um, I wanted to be afirefighter.
I don't do heights.
Um, and uh my stepdad was in themilitary, he was a career army
soldier.
Uh I had a learning disabilitysevere growing up as a kid.
I was the fresh kid, um, alwaysin trouble.
Um arrested at a building 19 forshoplifting.
(03:41):
Uh and thank God that you knowum it was a stupid thing, but
alcohol is involved as a kid.
Um, and then the grades werehorrible.
Um, and then I had this amazingteacher who's a World War II
veteran that I connected with,and uh a woman named Mrs.
Racer and her husband VinnyMoleco, who was um the
psychologist for the city, whothey believed in me.
(04:02):
And uh there was other teachersthat you know they seen
something to me.
And it wasn't until my uh mysenior year where um they had
this gentleman come in, helooked like Jesus Christ with a
satchel.
And um he was uh from myneighborhood, you know, he was
an undercover mass statetrooper.
Um one of the two brothers, theMichelle brothers, I'll never
forget it.
And then as a kid, I remember ummy mom uh introducing me to an
(04:26):
old MDC uh cop named Red Dog,and and I was always intrigued
about policing, but I was told Iwould never amount to any you
couldn't do it because you getyou can't spell.
And then this one teacher toldme, Why quitting you?
And that was it.
And uh I actually went in themilitary and uh it changed my it
changed my life.
Literally, literally changed mylife.
(04:47):
And uh that's where it started.
Yeah, and it was hard.
I I was the worst soldier going.
If you if I barely made it outof the police academy, I went in
as an MP.
My dad uh was a National Guardrecruiter, and it's a funny
story.
I think he wanted to get hisquota, but he wanted me to do
like mechanic work or somethinglike that.
But I s no, I was determined tochange my life.
(05:08):
I wanted to get into lawenforcement.
And um I come home and hestarted laughing, and he said
they're gonna kick your rearend, and then went down there
and they kicked my rear end.
And I was the last to graduate,but it was such an
accomplishment for me that it Icome home, went on to set
records with the mass.
I got a job working for theguard full-time.
(05:29):
Okay.
Um, I became a National Guardrecruiter at the old Cornwall
Towery.
I was the youngest recruiter inguard history at 20 years old.
Um, I did really well for myselfwith them.
Um, but always had my eye on theprize.
And I was still working with themilitary police units.
Uh I kept my my my school setup, and that was it.
And then I finally got my break.
(05:49):
And uh I could have gone to thestate, I could have gone to any
police department, but it wasjust something unique about
Revere in the way um it matchedmy personality, and it was the
best thing I ever did.
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
I was actually going to say exactly that.
And for those of you who are notfrom the Massachusetts area,
yes, Revere.
SPEAKER_02 (06:09):
Yeah, it's it's it's the people are just amazing,
they're colorful, they'recharacters, hearts of gold, and
it just uh working there and thethe job was really I call it no
adult supervision.
We were able to do whatever wewanted to, which is good and
bad, but we're able to do policework.
And I was exposed to some of themost craziest cases.
(06:29):
Um, I carry one of those casesin retirement.
I'm working a cold case now, avery high-profile cold case.
Yeah, Susan Taraskowitz.
I'm working with a retired statetrooper, MDC cop.
I came from old MDC Matt and uhmy partner Sean, and we're we're
very hopeful we're gonna getthis thing.
And uh so it's coming close.
You'll see some stuff come outin the paper, and there's gonna
(06:49):
be a book done, and we'reworking hard on that one.
That's my that's my real passionright now is to get a case
solved for the family.
I really haven't talked to thefamily.
This is something that we'vebeen doing on the side.
I've been passionate about itfor like the people who know me
know that this has been apassion for 25 years.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (07:06):
So that's who I am.
Well, you're a little more thanthat, Joe.
Yeah, well, yeah.
You know, um, you know, I Iright before the interview we
were talking about getting introuble when you were the
National Guard.
Uh but yeah, I think that what II'm fascinated by is that you've
made an omission about somethingas near and dear to my heart,
just like it is to you.
(07:26):
Not only are you working on thatcold case, and I know that cold
case, so I'm happy you'reworking on it.
Um you're you are someone whohas advocated not only for
people with mental health issuesin in the serv like service and
uh the first responder emergencyresponder world, you made a
mission to spread as far as youcan.
SPEAKER_02 (07:46):
Yeah, and and it hasn't been easy.
I am very, very, very blessed.
Uh 14 years ago, I, you know, umwell back up, the way I got into
it was I had a series oftraumas.
And yeah, I was gonna I wasgonna say there's gotta be a
story.
Yeah, it's a great story inRevere being Revere.
Um the the first one, believe itor not, and uh we'll get into
(08:09):
onsite in a minute.
I w worked a year without anacademy, because they did that
back then.
Responded to my grandfather'scode, a guy that raised me, hit
the dual running.
Um, because I was an MP, I wassupposed to know what I was
doing.
And uh sorry, there's nothing Icould do.
He had a master's aneurysm.
He lived for a couple of days.
But I didn't think that affectedme.
(08:30):
Then I had the betrayal of thedepartment where they wanted to
send me to the pre-screen forthe academy the day of his wake.
And thank God I had this onejerk.
Um I only had one jerk in theRivera Police Department,
believe it or not, and we helpedget rid of him out of the job.
He was a and and I feel bad forhim because I found out later
he's a nasty alcohol, it was anuh issue with alcohol.
(08:50):
But um, and the mayor said no.
I mean, his grandfather was partof the city, Joe's gonna go to
the academy at a later date.
Um, and that was my firstadministrative betrayal, you
know.
I thought this was supposed tobe family.
Um and the news was a greatdepartment, up to that one
person who busted my stones fora good bit while I was there
until we got rid of him.
Um, and then uh I had a seriesof events where I had a uh uh a
(09:16):
three-year-old who I knew thefamily that was um sexually
assaulted, and no, couldn't getanyone to come out to help me.
I had to handle the uh SA myselfas a brand new patrolman.
Oh wow.
And I carried, we had Polaroidcameras back then, and I had the
um well camera adds 70 pounds.
Um I gotta lose this weight.
Um so I'll stick out my belt ifit makes it feel better.
(09:38):
Um so I, you know, we hadPolaroids, and and thank God I
had someone say to me, you know,what are you doing?
I'm looking you know, I waslooking at the Polaroids, and so
they sent me back then.
Um I knew I had to talk tosomebody.
Um they sent me to John Barry,who was the founding father of
this whole movement of bearsupport with the boss of PD.
And back then he was like 110,great guy, Marine.
(10:00):
And they sent me up there, andI'll never forget it was the old
armory building in Stoneham.
I go up and meet with them, andhis wife was the secretary.
And he, Kate, what's going on?
And I was like, I won't you knowtell him and he was kind of old
school and he, you know, made mewrite a and I I can't write.
I get always had somebody helpme.
And he makes me write somethingout and makes me draw a picture
(10:21):
of a bike.
And he's why is this guysmiling?
Because he got the bike for hisbirthday.
I'm like, I'm not being a wiseass, he's asking me.
So finally he's berating me onmy spelling.
And you know, at the point, Igo, wait a minute.
This is in my mind, I go, thisis a test, right?
I'm gonna I want to jump overthe desk and beat him.
And I go, I can't do that.
And he was just old school, andbut a wonderful individual, and
(10:41):
we owe a lot to John Barry.
Uh his brother goes on to becomethe public safety commissioner
at Mass, too.
Um, so he says he does thisplace up in Gardner that just
opened up with these twohippies, exactly how it said it
was called the On-Site Academy.
So I'm thinking Academy, mydepartment's thinking academy.
They send me up there withanother, it's a true story.
Undercover car, guns, ammo,everything.
(11:02):
And Hayden, Dr.
Doug will tell you the storytoo.
And I pull around, I'm lookingfor this place.
The time was a duplex up inGardner on Mill Street.
I pull in, it was like somethingyou see one out of one flew out
of the cook design.
There's a bunch of peoplesmoking cigarettes, and I'm
like, hey, is this the onsite?
There's a little sign, andthey're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
come on in.
And I go get the stuff.
Like, hi there, what are youdoing?
I'm like, well, where's theranges?
(11:22):
This is an academy.
No, you you've been screwedover.
This is mental health, and Iwanted out of there.
And then I meet this, you know,I come in, they feed me, the
food was amazing.
And uh then I meet this amazing,amazing individual who changed
my life.
It was Dr.
Hayden Duggan.
And uh he calls me into hisoffice and how you doing.
I said, I made the mistake ofsaying fine, which you never do
(11:43):
to Dr.
Duggan.
And uh he realized that wow,this is gonna be my career, and
I love this guy.
And it was that time that heoffered me to come back for a
week and to get involved withpair support.
We were it was 96 and we werejust getting the Mitchell model
going to hair and mass.
So I paid for it out of mypocket.
Well, back up.
I go to the Revere PoliceDepartment and say, hey, listen,
(12:05):
I want to go up there, and theytold me, no, you don't have a
problem.
Mind your own business.
I took vacation and went upthere and got trained myself,
and I interceded with the unionand became the uh the pair
support person.
Went over to Boston PD, whichwas the the founding fathers of
this movement, and I hooked upwith them, and that was and
that's how we started.
And I've been and I never lookedback.
(12:27):
And when I retired, um, I'verealized I had an issue with the
bottle.
Um, you know, and I got soberthanks to Boston, and I stuck
with On site.
I was volunteering, then I wenton staff with them.
Uh I got my license.
I didn't want to do what youwere doing, I didn't want the
LCSW.
Um, I liked more of the criticalincident, and I like dealing
with the substance abuse.
I know we need to have an issuewith it in our field.
(12:49):
So um I wanted to be like thisMike Miles, who's one of the
founding fathers of thatmovement up in Lowell, one of my
mentors, and uh and that's how Istarted.
And uh 14 about three years ago,I'm doing a training.
Uh and well, back up, I meetthis uh I didn't know what to
take over when the first time Imet her.
(13:10):
She was very passionate, was mypartner Jane.
And we helped somebody, and weactually law I ended up losing
this person to an addictionafter about a year working.
We and we didn't see each otherfor probably 11 years.
We we talked here and there, weknew each other, and then we
reconnected at a training, andon site happened to say we
needed a clinician.
She had a great practice, Ididn't know why she wanted to
(13:30):
come up there, and then when shecame to work at us at OnSite, I
was taken back.
I never met a clinician thatdynamic.
Um, and then we she brought meinto NEBPA, which is the big
police union, and uh, and thenwe opened a small practice with
uh her partner Amy tooling, anduh here I am two and a half
years later, closer to two yearslater, it and we're growing, and
(13:52):
I've it's a dream, it's been adream control.
Before you forget, what's thename of the agency you guys work
with?
Well, it's first respond towellness of Merrimack Valley.
I want to make sure people knowthat.
Yeah, and if we help anybody,it's not about the money with
us.
Um any BPA, uh, and and I'm Iwas with the FOP prior to that,
and I still do a lot with FOPfraternally on the national.
I think Sherry Martin isprobably the most influential
(14:15):
person in law enforcement uh uhsupport mental health that's out
there.
Uh I don't think she gets enoughcredit for the work she does.
And uh so um yeah, I I've beenblessed.
And the the union has given me alot of opportunities to to help
people.
SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
And I know that you've helped a lot of people
because I've heard of it.
Um I mean I wouldn't be hittalking to you if you do what
you do.
You know, there's so many placesI want to go.
The first thing I'm gonna say iswhile we're doing it on video,
um afterwards I'm gonna shakeyour hand, not only for your
service for this country, and Ido appreciate that more than you
(14:56):
know.
I also want to shake your handon your sobriety, but it's a
little awkward in the studio soI appreciate that.
But I really appreciate thatpersonally because I think that
those are little things thatpeople don't understand, that
these low recognitions are soimportant.
And you know, it's not aboutbragging or anything like that,
because that ain't in that's notwithin your DNA, and I know you.
Yeah, but I wanted to say I wantto make sure.
SPEAKER_02 (15:18):
I appreciate that, but it's team.
Like I come from a team concept,it's not an I concept.
I can't do my work without Steveand Jane and Amy and Hayden.
And if if this is why I I almostgot fired from on-site, and I
people who know me, I don't I'llspeak up and I will if you're
disrespecting our firstresponders and you're out here
(15:39):
for the money, I will open up acan of whip ass and I will
expose you.
And I've had my mouth gets me introuble.
Jane has to reel me in all thetime, but I'm still a street
cop, and I'll never forget whereI came from.
SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
Bingo.
That's exactly where I wasgoing.
What I think happens a lot ispeople don't for they forget
where they came from.
And you then, and uh, we cantalk a little later on about the
other stuff too, but I someonewe both know, Tommy Turko.
Another guy who remembers wherehe came from, and shout out to
Tommy, I'm sure that he'lllisten.
SPEAKER_02 (16:12):
It's he, you know, I've known him for a while
because I I had I I was alobbyist for the FOP assisting
lobbyist, and his, you know,working for he's he's one of us,
he's from the business.
Um, he's got skin in the game inthe business, but he's such a
you know, I gotta give credit toJerry Flynn that came before him
to set the groundwork, right?
Jerry sets the groundwork, butTommy just came into our agency
(16:34):
and has given us Card Blanche Band Jane.
And he's our primary focus onNEPPA, we just had a convention,
is working with our retirees andworking with mental health.
And we're the only union, uh,police union that has a
full-time staff dedicated tocrisis intervention and drug and
alcohol.
(16:55):
Now we're going into the retireefield, which was much needed.
And that's an understatement.
I I the only problem I have, andand my partner's Jane, and I
will tell you, is I gotta washmyself that, you know, I have
that work-life balance.
Because I'll I there was came atime where I was, they they told
me they weren't gonna send meout any calls, so I had to take
(17:15):
time out.
I'm not used to taking time out.
Um first respond, I had this,I'm not gonna get into it, but I
had a uh a person who was asupervisor at on site, and she's
no longer there, and I don'treally don't care.
Um she she didn't come from ourworld, and she's trying to say,
you gotta slow down.
I'm like, first responders youdon't understand, can't go from
(17:37):
a hundred miles an hour to zero.
It's a bad spot.
I can go to 60, recharge, andcome back up and get into the
fight.
And uh that's why sometimes Ihave a little bit of heartburn
with some of the the folks thatcome out of these, you know,
high-end schools that don'tunderstand.
They oh I know how to where thefirst responder is.
(17:58):
If you don't know what it's liketo go to a roll call, you don't
know what it's like to to betired to go to work and pray
that you drive the car into theget back to the station to take
a nap because you have to.
But if it was it wasn't for mypartner, she she called me on my
shit and she says, You got ahouse in New Hampshire and you
(18:19):
got a boat, what are you doing?
Right.
And you know, I have a bad habitof smoking cigars, it's my only
vice.
But I learned I could take twocalls on the boat and spend the
rest of the day on the lake.
Right.
And it was the best thing.
And I got back, I lost my justlike any retiree, I lost my my
hobbies.
Um, and I could do have afamily.
Um, I got back into you knowsport and clay shooting, and you
(18:41):
know, you us Italians, we don'tdo golf.
You haven't heard of uh anItalian Winter Masters, right?
No, uh that's it.
So we we do Italian shotguns andwe eat a lot, but yeah, so
that's where I'm at now.
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
I'm a lefty, so that's why I'm bad at golf.
So yeah, no.
So but no, I think that one ofthe things you brought in so
many good points, and I don'tknow where to start.
Pick one.
But I will go with a couple ofthings.
Hayden's Hayden's been on mypodcast.
Hayden is gonna be back on mypodcast, amazing guy.
And on-site is one of the bestservices we have in the area,
(19:13):
you know.
And I think that for me, one ofthe things that we can you we
can go in so many directionsright now.
But one of the things is thetreatment part.
Because the other part that'sreally important to me, and if
you've ever listened to mypodcast, you've heard me say
this constantly.
Cultural competency is the keyfor therapists.
And unfortunately, therapiststhink that you can read what
(19:35):
roll call is in a book.
SPEAKER_02 (19:37):
We don't have enough time.
Um, I know.
SPEAKER_01 (19:39):
No, but hey, doesn't mean you were limited to one
episode, man.
SPEAKER_02 (19:42):
Listen, uh, you know, these programs that are
coming out, they all want tohang up the shingle and say
we're the best.
They want to buy you.
Um Hayden on site is a greatprogram, but it's not enough
sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
And I'll I'll interrupt you if you don't mind.
It's it's a good program, but wecan't have Only one good
program.
SPEAKER_02 (20:01):
There's only six bets.
SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
That's what I mean.
SPEAKER_02 (20:05):
He's going into the right direction.
He's finally going to go intothe retiree and family.
We've me and Jane we veteverybody we sent to.
We tortured these people.
Dr.
Odom took the onsite out inFirst Respondent of Wellness of
California.
My brother-in-law is a uhfirefighter.
He's my hero.
Kid's amazing.
He's LA County firefighter, um,marine, badass, you know.
(20:29):
But they use first responderwellness of California, it's
about six years old.
They took the onsite cartconcept and put it on steroids.
And I have the greatest success.
They're full first responder.
Um, they're coming actuallycoming up this week to speak in
Boston.
Um, we're trying to use them.
Um, they have a retiree programthat's a 30-day program.
Uh, but again, you it's you haveto get somebody on a plane to
(20:51):
get down to California, whichit's beautiful.
It's a long beach.
The program's amazing.
So, but we're not exclusive.
We use, I get three or four thatI use.
There's people that used to begood that I won't send anybody
to.
Right.
Um, there's one at home programwith the rep I can't stand.
I will not send people to thisperson uh because they
disrespected me and theydisrespected uh I don't think
(21:14):
they do a good job.
Right.
Um, there's another couple otherprograms, and I'm not gonna go
on online and tell you who theyare, but you can see that that
they they're all about the thethe the old money dollar and
they're not about taking care ofthe person.
And uh we have to and we vetthem.
That's why I get one shot tosome I get one shot to send
(21:36):
somebody away.
And if they go down there andthey don't have a good time,
right?
We're done in my credibility.
So it's we have uh probablythree or four places uh that we
use that we constantly vet.
One just changed.
I went up and physically seenthe place, and the rep said you
know you're not gonna use usanymore because we changed.
I go, you're right.
You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:55):
But I think that that's the problem, is that we
need to vet these things.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
You have to hold people accountable.
SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
Right.
And I think that that's why likeI'm gonna go down.
Um, this will come out probablyin late November, early
December, and I'm going down inJanuary to the IAFF uh Center of
Excellence now.
SPEAKER_02 (22:08):
I'm on the way let me know.
I'll probably go with youbecause uh Hannah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
Uh you're in touch with Hannah?
Hiernah's I talk to Hannah oncea week.
She she's been on my podcast twoweeks ago.
Like I was about two months ago.
SPEAKER_02 (22:19):
And she's a phenomenal program, right?
She's so amazing.
But they they get the fo forfolks that don't know, that's
the International BrotherhoodFirefighters, that's who they
use.
But again, we can't be justexclusive to them because of
insurance.
I'll give you one.
I'll give you a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
But let's let's cut let's cut all this.
I'm gonna cut the BS because I Idon't like this, and I'll tell
you why.
I hate that we need to becareful of what we say because
it's not silos.
Hayden can't do it on his own.
I can't do it on his own.
No, we need T.
You can't do it on.
I don't care who get gives thehelp, I don't care who wins the
money as long as they'recompetent and the person gets
help.
(22:53):
That's all I care about.
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
That's an even and and that's the key, right?
And you have to you have to havemultiple sources.
Right.
Right?
Because no, it's not one sizefits all.
No.
Um we had an issue where I likefutures recovery down in
Florida.
Uh Stacy Charter, Ed, used towork for Genesis House.
We were the only game in town atone point, right?
Right.
(23:15):
So they do the NFL and HHLD havePTOT.
I had a, you know, I gave acontract with the Lowell
Firefighter uh union.
Well, you have somebody that canchart.
All these places that we talkabout, they don't can't do PTOT.
They have to outsource, right?
Well, guess what?
They have a first responderprogram that does real good work
down there.
Um, I love the program, but youcan take a first responder who's
(23:37):
suffering physically, put themdown there, and they're getting
treatment for their occupationalinjury, which might not, where
they might not be able to goback to work, or they might be
stuck going back to work.
So we have them as a tool,right?
Correct.
No, and we have to have, we knowwho does strong, like strong
mental health work just forfirst responders.
(23:58):
We know that California Dr.
Odom is probably right nowoutside of on site, which is
only a week, probably the bestin the business.
Right.
Um, I'm you know, I'm talking,you know, I put 25, I think 20
people out there last year toCalifornia.
You know, and uh and I putpeople all over the place, but
when you're talking mentalhealth, they do a good job.
(24:19):
And they're also theirtherapists, here's the secret
they're culturally competent.
He whole they're coming from thefield.
Right.
He hires them.
You talk to a therapist outthere, I was a cop, I was a
firefighter.
Um, you know, and so can theychange?
Absolutely.
Our job is to keep on top ofthem.
SPEAKER_01 (24:39):
Right.
That's all we know.
And I think that's the that'sthe the mentality that I want to
change.
This is some of the stuff I wentpretty quick.
Oh no, well, I mean, um, I'dlove to keep you on, but uh
we'll see what we can do.
Uh but bottom line for me isthat what people don't
understand is that the culturalcompetency is what people want.
Uh the guys, you know, come inand I I know what's what's funny
(25:02):
is that people don't get that inmy profession sometimes.
Most of the guys will come in,they're either super serious
because they got somethingthey're really on their mind, or
they'll bust my balls right awaybecause I'm a Montreal Canadiens
fan or whatever.
And I know when they busted myballs, I'm like, oh okay,
they're already open to me.
SPEAKER_02 (25:19):
Chris Stylin, that's all I'm gonna say.
But I think that people don'tget that brother-in-law was line
of duty death.
People don't know that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:25):
Oh, I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_02 (25:27):
People don't realize that he's done a lot for
constructions if we survivedthis.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
So But I think that that's what it you know, you
what you're talking about is soimportant.
And one of the things that, youknow, there's a few things I I
love is that, and we we gottawork together on this.
We have uh Behind the Badge andBeyond that we do as a group
here, and we hope to expand itone day to very to train
therapists, to train firstresponders on mental health with
the right cultural competency.
(25:51):
But I think that the bottom lineis that we've for too long in
this field, and you correct meif I'm wrong, people were
siloed.
Oh, this is my referrals, theseare my things, these are at I
don't care.
Like Joe, you you make millionsof dollars.
I don't care.
Yeah, you know, but I and I knowthat's not your goal.
I'm just giving an example.
And I think that's the otherpart that I find is frustrating.
(26:11):
Thank you, New England, andparticularly Massachusetts, and
I calling out everyone.
I don't care who gets theresource, who gets the referral,
who like as long as they'recompetent and the person gets.
SPEAKER_02 (26:21):
Well, you the reason why I love working with you, you
don't have an ego.
And and the ego is what is whatkills this business.
And I, you know, I could talkfor hours on that with the with
some of the leaders on lawenforcement, and that they hurt
our people.
Um, but yeah, I want to be rightsized.
As soon as I get out of rightbeing right sized, um, that's
when I I go back to selling hotdogs.
Um which I I mean I want to dothis for five years.
(26:44):
I want to have an end game.
You know, I I'm fortunate tostill have retirement 13 years.
Um I got a 17-year-old greatson, he's gonna be going to
college.
Um, I want to have an end game.
SPEAKER_01 (26:58):
I think that that's the other part too, is I talk a
lot, and again, another thing wecan go to, you talk about
retirees.
That's whole concepts.
Uh, but you know, like how manytimes did I read the stat that
was it like five years.
Yeah, five years.
Still the same.
And I I tell these guys who Ihave a couple of guys getting
close to retirement right now,and I said to them, we're gonna
(27:19):
start talking about it.
Well, it's in two years.
I'm like, it's time to talkabout it.
Well, we can do a whole segmenton our program, but we just had
a chief from Bolton just droppedoff a heart attack.
I know, I just saw that.
SPEAKER_02 (27:29):
Great guy.
Um, he you know, so And he's acommunity guy, which is Yeah,
you know, if you don't have aplan and a purpose, we're we're
adapting the recovery coachmodel to retiree coaching with
NEVPA.
And Tom Turkl's the key.
If it was Tom Trekle's the guythat said, hey, this is gonna be
done, let's do it and go goodand done it.
So we're we're you know, I'lltell you later, I'll tell you
(27:49):
off camera what we're doing withthat.
Um, but yeah, you know, we'regonna be people can retire, you
can be on the job a week and gethurt and have to retire.
So it's important that we exposethat to everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
You expose everyone, and you know, one of the my
first interventions, I wasworking with a uh Mass State
police who uh someone told methere was a some line of duty
death, and everyone was checkingon him for the first couple of
weeks.
He's like, I don't know what todo anymore.
I said, That's the problem.
You can't like two weeks, peoplelike grief does not have a
(28:22):
timeline, it's not like twoweeks, you're good.
And he said he continuedfollowing up until well, I had I
don't know, I'm I'm assuming hestill is, and he's like, that
changed that that partner'slife, that woman's life.
SPEAKER_02 (28:34):
As we end this, I could say is if you have
somebody going on internalinvestigations or you can see an
entry, check on them.
Just keep checking on them, getthem to Steve, get the reach out
to me, Rich, Mass Pair SupportNetwork, call on site, check on
them, check on them, check onthem.
SPEAKER_01 (28:49):
Well, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say, let's
finish the episode here.
And I thank you for your time.
Simple quick output all yourlate too.
Too quick.
No, no, it's not gonna be tooquick.
We're gonna do this again.
SPEAKER_02 (28:58):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (28:58):
All right.
And um, for those of you who aregonna be joining us for uh
episode 233, uh 234, I'm lookingforward to it, and I'll talk to
you then.
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(29:33):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development and
Action with Steve Beast Home.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police hire EMS,discounters, and parametics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:29):
You know you've heard me talk about this before.
Get free.ai.
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(00:51):
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Well, hi, and welcome to episode233 of Resilience Development in
(01:12):
Action.
If you haven't been listening,episode 232 is with Douglas
Wyman.
I don't know if you know him,but uh he's a police chief,
correctional staff guy.
He's a trainer, he's been in themilitary, he's got all this
experience, so it's really cool.
Uh so I hope you enjoyed thatepisode.
But episode 233 is going to bewith Joe Rizzutti.
Joe, Joe and I have been tryingto get in contact for years.
(01:35):
Yeah.
Three years.
We've known each other.
And you know what's funny is I Ishare this story because I think
it's funny.
Um, they they say the same thingabout me, so that's why I like
that.
I was like, here's Joe's number.
He's a little rough around theedges, but you can give him a
call.
Yeah.
And I'm like, oh okay, that'snot a good presentation.
I call you up, and we had aconversation for 30 minutes the
first time without evenstopping.
SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (01:57):
Uh so for me, I always think like, do people
really like pay attention?
SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
Because like I I I wear it as a badge of honor.
I grew up in the city ofRiviera.
I was a Riviera police officer,one of the greatest police
departments, I think, in thecountry.
I've been through a lot in mylife.
Um, I got into mental health tohelp the first responders.
Um, not a big fan of some of thepeople in your profession.
Okay.
And the way they look at ourprofession.
And uh I'm not gonna change whoI am.
(02:23):
That's who makes me who I am,and I think I'm pretty effective
of staying true to myself.
And that's what we're teachingpeople, so that's why I am not
I'm not gonna change.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
Whenever you get it, well, after this, because I this
is a private conversation I hadwith someone, I'll explain how
some of these therapists arecompletely clueless as to what
you guys do.
We need them and we love them,but I don't want to put someone
on the spot because I know theylisten, so if you know who you
are, then you can yell at me,but I'm not sharing the story
here.
Uh, but Joe, you know, I feellike I've got to know you.
(02:53):
We just had like 30 minutes ofconversation, we're not even
trying.
But uh, I don't think myaudience knows who you are, so
can you introduce yourself?
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
So you know, I grew up uh you know Italian American
in if you think of the Sopranos,um that you that's not too much
power what Rivera was.
Uh I grew up in the 70s.
Uh dad walked out, two-bit wiseguy, you know.
Um, and uh, you know, mygrandfather who worked for the
DPW, great uh great guy.
(03:19):
My uncle, one of my heroes, wasa firefighter.
Um, I wanted to be afirefighter.
I don't do heights.
Um, and uh my stepdad was in themilitary, he was a career army
soldier.
Uh I had a learning disabilitysevere growing up as a kid.
I was the fresh kid, um, alwaysin trouble.
Um arrested at a building 19 forshoplifting.
(03:41):
Uh and thank God that you knowum it was a stupid thing, but
alcohol is involved as a kid.
Um, and then the grades werehorrible.
Um, and then I had this amazingteacher who's a World War II
veteran that I connected with,and uh a woman named Mrs.
Racer and her husband VinnyMoleco, who was um the
psychologist for the city, whothey believed in me.
(04:02):
And uh there was other teachersthat you know they seen
something to me.
And it wasn't until my uh mysenior year where um they had
this gentleman come in, helooked like Jesus Christ with a
satchel.
And um he was uh from myneighborhood, you know, he was
an undercover mass statetrooper.
Um one of the two brothers, theMichelle brothers, I'll never
forget it.
And then as a kid, I remember ummy mom uh introducing me to an
(04:26):
old MDC uh cop named Red Dog,and and I was always intrigued
about policing, but I was told Iwould never amount to any you
couldn't do it because you getyou can't spell.
And then this one teacher toldme, Why quitting you?
And that was it.
And uh I actually went in themilitary and uh it changed my it
changed my life.
Literally, literally changed mylife.
(04:47):
And uh that's where it started.
Yeah, and it was hard.
I I was the worst soldier going.
If you if I barely made it outof the police academy, I went in
as an MP.
My dad uh was a National Guardrecruiter, and it's a funny
story.
I think he wanted to get hisquota, but he wanted me to do
like mechanic work or somethinglike that.
But I s no, I was determined tochange my life.
(05:08):
I wanted to get into lawenforcement.
And um I come home and hestarted laughing, and he said
they're gonna kick your rearend, and then went down there
and they kicked my rear end.
And I was the last to graduate,but it was such an
accomplishment for me that it Icome home, went on to set
records with the mass.
I got a job working for theguard full-time.
(05:29):
Okay.
Um, I became a National Guardrecruiter at the old Cornwall
Towery.
I was the youngest recruiter inguard history at 20 years old.
Um, I did really well for myselfwith them.
Um, but always had my eye on theprize.
And I was still working with themilitary police units.
Uh I kept my my my school setup, and that was it.
And then I finally got my break.
(05:49):
And uh I could have gone to thestate, I could have gone to any
police department, but it wasjust something unique about
Revere in the way um it matchedmy personality, and it was the
best thing I ever did.
SPEAKER_01 (06:02):
I was actually going to say exactly that.
And for those of you who are notfrom the Massachusetts area,
yes, Revere.
SPEAKER_02 (06:09):
Yeah, it's it's it's the people are just amazing,
they're colorful, they'recharacters, hearts of gold, and
it just uh working there and thethe job was really I call it no
adult supervision.
We were able to do whatever wewanted to, which is good and
bad, but we're able to do policework.
And I was exposed to some of themost craziest cases.
(06:29):
Um, I carry one of those casesin retirement.
I'm working a cold case now, avery high-profile cold case.
Yeah, Susan Taraskowitz.
I'm working with a retired statetrooper, MDC cop.
I came from old MDC Matt and uhmy partner Sean, and we're we're
very hopeful we're gonna getthis thing.
And uh so it's coming close.
You'll see some stuff come outin the paper, and there's gonna
(06:49):
be a book done, and we'reworking hard on that one.
That's my that's my real passionright now is to get a case
solved for the family.
I really haven't talked to thefamily.
This is something that we'vebeen doing on the side.
I've been passionate about itfor like the people who know me
know that this has been apassion for 25 years.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (07:06):
So that's who I am.
Well, you're a little more thanthat, Joe.
Yeah, well, yeah.
You know, um, you know, I Iright before the interview we
were talking about getting introuble when you were the
National Guard.
Uh but yeah, I think that what II'm fascinated by is that you've
made an omission about somethingas near and dear to my heart,
just like it is to you.
(07:26):
Not only are you working on thatcold case, and I know that cold
case, so I'm happy you'reworking on it.
Um you're you are someone whohas advocated not only for
people with mental health issuesin in the serv like service and
uh the first responder emergencyresponder world, you made a
mission to spread as far as youcan.
SPEAKER_02 (07:46):
Yeah, and and it hasn't been easy.
I am very, very, very blessed.
Uh 14 years ago, I, you know, umwell back up, the way I got into
it was I had a series oftraumas.
And yeah, I was gonna I wasgonna say there's gotta be a
story.
Yeah, it's a great story inRevere being Revere.
Um the the first one, believe itor not, and uh we'll get into
(08:09):
onsite in a minute.
I w worked a year without anacademy, because they did that
back then.
Responded to my grandfather'scode, a guy that raised me, hit
the dual running.
Um, because I was an MP, I wassupposed to know what I was
doing.
And uh sorry, there's nothing Icould do.
He had a master's aneurysm.
He lived for a couple of days.
But I didn't think that affectedme.
(08:30):
Then I had the betrayal of thedepartment where they wanted to
send me to the pre-screen forthe academy the day of his wake.
And thank God I had this onejerk.
Um I only had one jerk in theRivera Police Department,
believe it or not, and we helpedget rid of him out of the job.
He was a and and I feel bad forhim because I found out later
he's a nasty alcohol, it was anuh issue with alcohol.
(08:50):
But um, and the mayor said no.
I mean, his grandfather was partof the city, Joe's gonna go to
the academy at a later date.
Um, and that was my firstadministrative betrayal, you
know.
I thought this was supposed tobe family.
Um and the news was a greatdepartment, up to that one
person who busted my stones fora good bit while I was there
until we got rid of him.
Um, and then uh I had a seriesof events where I had a uh uh a
(09:16):
three-year-old who I knew thefamily that was um sexually
assaulted, and no, couldn't getanyone to come out to help me.
I had to handle the uh SA myselfas a brand new patrolman.
Oh wow.
And I carried, we had Polaroidcameras back then, and I had the
um well camera adds 70 pounds.
Um I gotta lose this weight.
Um so I'll stick out my belt ifit makes it feel better.
(09:38):
Um so I, you know, we hadPolaroids, and and thank God I
had someone say to me, you know,what are you doing?
I'm looking you know, I waslooking at the Polaroids, and so
they sent me back then.
Um I knew I had to talk tosomebody.
Um they sent me to John Barry,who was the founding father of
this whole movement of bearsupport with the boss of PD.
And back then he was like 110,great guy, Marine.
(10:00):
And they sent me up there, andI'll never forget it was the old
armory building in Stoneham.
I go up and meet with them, andhis wife was the secretary.
And he, Kate, what's going on?
And I was like, I won't you knowtell him and he was kind of old
school and he, you know, made mewrite a and I I can't write.
I get always had somebody helpme.
And he makes me write somethingout and makes me draw a picture
(10:21):
of a bike.
And he's why is this guysmiling?
Because he got the bike for hisbirthday.
I'm like, I'm not being a wiseass, he's asking me.
So finally he's berating me onmy spelling.
And you know, at the point, Igo, wait a minute.
This is in my mind, I go, thisis a test, right?
I'm gonna I want to jump overthe desk and beat him.
And I go, I can't do that.
And he was just old school, andbut a wonderful individual, and
(10:41):
we owe a lot to John Barry.
Uh his brother goes on to becomethe public safety commissioner
at Mass, too.
Um, so he says he does thisplace up in Gardner that just
opened up with these twohippies, exactly how it said it
was called the On-Site Academy.
So I'm thinking Academy, mydepartment's thinking academy.
They send me up there withanother, it's a true story.
Undercover car, guns, ammo,everything.
(11:02):
And Hayden, Dr.
Doug will tell you the storytoo.
And I pull around, I'm lookingfor this place.
The time was a duplex up inGardner on Mill Street.
I pull in, it was like somethingyou see one out of one flew out
of the cook design.
There's a bunch of peoplesmoking cigarettes, and I'm
like, hey, is this the onsite?
There's a little sign, andthey're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
come on in.
And I go get the stuff.
Like, hi there, what are youdoing?
I'm like, well, where's theranges?
(11:22):
This is an academy.
No, you you've been screwedover.
This is mental health, and Iwanted out of there.
And then I meet this, you know,I come in, they feed me, the
food was amazing.
And uh then I meet this amazing,amazing individual who changed
my life.
It was Dr.
Hayden Duggan.
And uh he calls me into hisoffice and how you doing.
I said, I made the mistake ofsaying fine, which you never do
(11:43):
to Dr.
Duggan.
And uh he realized that wow,this is gonna be my career, and
I love this guy.
And it was that time that heoffered me to come back for a
week and to get involved withpair support.
We were it was 96 and we werejust getting the Mitchell model
going to hair and mass.
So I paid for it out of mypocket.
Well, back up.
I go to the Revere PoliceDepartment and say, hey, listen,
(12:05):
I want to go up there, and theytold me, no, you don't have a
problem.
Mind your own business.
I took vacation and went upthere and got trained myself,
and I interceded with the unionand became the uh the pair
support person.
Went over to Boston PD, whichwas the the founding fathers of
this movement, and I hooked upwith them, and that was and
that's how we started.
And I've been and I never lookedback.
(12:27):
And when I retired, um, I'verealized I had an issue with the
bottle.
Um, you know, and I got soberthanks to Boston, and I stuck
with On site.
I was volunteering, then I wenton staff with them.
Uh I got my license.
I didn't want to do what youwere doing, I didn't want the
LCSW.
Um, I liked more of the criticalincident, and I like dealing
with the substance abuse.
I know we need to have an issuewith it in our field.
(12:49):
So um I wanted to be like thisMike Miles, who's one of the
founding fathers of thatmovement up in Lowell, one of my
mentors, and uh and that's how Istarted.
And uh 14 about three years ago,I'm doing a training.
Uh and well, back up, I meetthis uh I didn't know what to
take over when the first time Imet her.
(13:10):
She was very passionate, was mypartner Jane.
And we helped somebody, and weactually law I ended up losing
this person to an addictionafter about a year working.
We and we didn't see each otherfor probably 11 years.
We we talked here and there, weknew each other, and then we
reconnected at a training, andon site happened to say we
needed a clinician.
She had a great practice, Ididn't know why she wanted to
(13:30):
come up there, and then when shecame to work at us at OnSite, I
was taken back.
I never met a clinician thatdynamic.
Um, and then we she brought meinto NEBPA, which is the big
police union, and uh, and thenwe opened a small practice with
uh her partner Amy tooling, anduh here I am two and a half
years later, closer to two yearslater, it and we're growing, and
(13:52):
I've it's a dream, it's been adream control.
Before you forget, what's thename of the agency you guys work
with?
Well, it's first respond towellness of Merrimack Valley.
I want to make sure people knowthat.
Yeah, and if we help anybody,it's not about the money with
us.
Um any BPA, uh, and and I'm Iwas with the FOP prior to that,
and I still do a lot with FOPfraternally on the national.
I think Sherry Martin isprobably the most influential
(14:15):
person in law enforcement uh uhsupport mental health that's out
there.
Uh I don't think she gets enoughcredit for the work she does.
And uh so um yeah, I I've beenblessed.
And the the union has given me alot of opportunities to to help
people.
SPEAKER_01 (14:35):
And I know that you've helped a lot of people
because I've heard of it.
Um I mean I wouldn't be hittalking to you if you do what
you do.
You know, there's so many placesI want to go.
The first thing I'm gonna say iswhile we're doing it on video,
um afterwards I'm gonna shakeyour hand, not only for your
service for this country, and Ido appreciate that more than you
(14:56):
know.
I also want to shake your handon your sobriety, but it's a
little awkward in the studio soI appreciate that.
But I really appreciate thatpersonally because I think that
those are little things thatpeople don't understand, that
these low recognitions are soimportant.
And you know, it's not aboutbragging or anything like that,
because that ain't in that's notwithin your DNA, and I know you.
Yeah, but I wanted to say I wantto make sure.
SPEAKER_02 (15:18):
I appreciate that, but it's team.
Like I come from a team concept,it's not an I concept.
I can't do my work without Steveand Jane and Amy and Hayden.
And if if this is why I I almostgot fired from on-site, and I
people who know me, I don't I'llspeak up and I will if you're
disrespecting our firstresponders and you're out here
(15:39):
for the money, I will open up acan of whip ass and I will
expose you.
And I've had my mouth gets me introuble.
Jane has to reel me in all thetime, but I'm still a street
cop, and I'll never forget whereI came from.
SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
Bingo.
That's exactly where I wasgoing.
What I think happens a lot ispeople don't for they forget
where they came from.
And you then, and uh, we cantalk a little later on about the
other stuff too, but I someonewe both know, Tommy Turko.
Another guy who remembers wherehe came from, and shout out to
Tommy, I'm sure that he'lllisten.
SPEAKER_02 (16:12):
It's he, you know, I've known him for a while
because I I had I I was alobbyist for the FOP assisting
lobbyist, and his, you know,working for he's he's one of us,
he's from the business.
Um, he's got skin in the game inthe business, but he's such a
you know, I gotta give credit toJerry Flynn that came before him
to set the groundwork, right?
Jerry sets the groundwork, butTommy just came into our agency
(16:34):
and has given us Card Blanche Band Jane.
And he's our primary focus onNEPPA, we just had a convention,
is working with our retirees andworking with mental health.
And we're the only union, uh,police union that has a
full-time staff dedicated tocrisis intervention and drug and
alcohol.
(16:55):
Now we're going into the retireefield, which was much needed.
And that's an understatement.
I I the only problem I have, andand my partner's Jane, and I
will tell you, is I gotta washmyself that, you know, I have
that work-life balance.
Because I'll I there was came atime where I was, they they told
me they weren't gonna send meout any calls, so I had to take
(17:15):
time out.
I'm not used to taking time out.
Um first respond, I had this,I'm not gonna get into it, but I
had a uh a person who was asupervisor at on site, and she's
no longer there, and I don'treally don't care.
Um she she didn't come from ourworld, and she's trying to say,
you gotta slow down.
I'm like, first responders youdon't understand, can't go from
(17:37):
a hundred miles an hour to zero.
It's a bad spot.
I can go to 60, recharge, andcome back up and get into the
fight.
And uh that's why sometimes Ihave a little bit of heartburn
with some of the the folks thatcome out of these, you know,
high-end schools that don'tunderstand.
They oh I know how to where thefirst responder is.
(17:58):
If you don't know what it's liketo go to a roll call, you don't
know what it's like to to betired to go to work and pray
that you drive the car into theget back to the station to take
a nap because you have to.
But if it was it wasn't for mypartner, she she called me on my
shit and she says, You got ahouse in New Hampshire and you
(18:19):
got a boat, what are you doing?
Right.
And you know, I have a bad habitof smoking cigars, it's my only
vice.
But I learned I could take twocalls on the boat and spend the
rest of the day on the lake.
Right.
And it was the best thing.
And I got back, I lost my justlike any retiree, I lost my my
hobbies.
Um, and I could do have afamily.
Um, I got back into you knowsport and clay shooting, and you
(18:41):
know, you us Italians, we don'tdo golf.
You haven't heard of uh anItalian Winter Masters, right?
No, uh that's it.
So we we do Italian shotguns andwe eat a lot, but yeah, so
that's where I'm at now.
SPEAKER_01 (18:51):
I'm a lefty, so that's why I'm bad at golf.
So yeah, no.
So but no, I think that one ofthe things you brought in so
many good points, and I don'tknow where to start.
Pick one.
But I will go with a couple ofthings.
Hayden's Hayden's been on mypodcast.
Hayden is gonna be back on mypodcast, amazing guy.
And on-site is one of the bestservices we have in the area,
(19:13):
you know.
And I think that for me, one ofthe things that we can you we
can go in so many directionsright now.
But one of the things is thetreatment part.
Because the other part that'sreally important to me, and if
you've ever listened to mypodcast, you've heard me say
this constantly.
Cultural competency is the keyfor therapists.
And unfortunately, therapiststhink that you can read what
(19:35):
roll call is in a book.
SPEAKER_02 (19:37):
We don't have enough time.
Um, I know.
SPEAKER_01 (19:39):
No, but hey, doesn't mean you were limited to one
episode, man.
SPEAKER_02 (19:42):
Listen, uh, you know, these programs that are
coming out, they all want tohang up the shingle and say
we're the best.
They want to buy you.
Um Hayden on site is a greatprogram, but it's not enough
sometimes.
SPEAKER_01 (19:54):
And I'll I'll interrupt you if you don't mind.
It's it's a good program, but wecan't have Only one good
program.
SPEAKER_02 (20:01):
There's only six bets.
SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
That's what I mean.
SPEAKER_02 (20:05):
He's going into the right direction.
He's finally going to go intothe retiree and family.
We've me and Jane we veteverybody we sent to.
We tortured these people.
Dr.
Odom took the onsite out inFirst Respondent of Wellness of
California.
My brother-in-law is a uhfirefighter.
He's my hero.
Kid's amazing.
He's LA County firefighter, um,marine, badass, you know.
(20:29):
But they use first responderwellness of California, it's
about six years old.
They took the onsite cartconcept and put it on steroids.
And I have the greatest success.
They're full first responder.
Um, they're coming actuallycoming up this week to speak in
Boston.
Um, we're trying to use them.
Um, they have a retiree programthat's a 30-day program.
Uh, but again, you it's you haveto get somebody on a plane to
(20:51):
get down to California, whichit's beautiful.
It's a long beach.
The program's amazing.
So, but we're not exclusive.
We use, I get three or four thatI use.
There's people that used to begood that I won't send anybody
to.
Right.
Um, there's one at home programwith the rep I can't stand.
I will not send people to thisperson uh because they
disrespected me and theydisrespected uh I don't think
(21:14):
they do a good job.
Right.
Um, there's another couple otherprograms, and I'm not gonna go
on online and tell you who theyare, but you can see that that
they they're all about the thethe the old money dollar and
they're not about taking care ofthe person.
And uh we have to and we vetthem.
That's why I get one shot tosome I get one shot to send
(21:36):
somebody away.
And if they go down there andthey don't have a good time,
right?
We're done in my credibility.
So it's we have uh probablythree or four places uh that we
use that we constantly vet.
One just changed.
I went up and physically seenthe place, and the rep said you
know you're not gonna use usanymore because we changed.
I go, you're right.
You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (21:55):
But I think that that's the problem, is that we
need to vet these things.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
You have to hold people accountable.
SPEAKER_01 (21:59):
Right.
And I think that that's why likeI'm gonna go down.
Um, this will come out probablyin late November, early
December, and I'm going down inJanuary to the IAFF uh Center of
Excellence now.
SPEAKER_02 (22:08):
I'm on the way let me know.
I'll probably go with youbecause uh Hannah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:11):
Uh you're in touch with Hannah?
Hiernah's I talk to Hannah oncea week.
She she's been on my podcast twoweeks ago.
Like I was about two months ago.
SPEAKER_02 (22:19):
And she's a phenomenal program, right?
She's so amazing.
But they they get the fo forfolks that don't know, that's
the International BrotherhoodFirefighters, that's who they
use.
But again, we can't be justexclusive to them because of
insurance.
I'll give you one.
I'll give you a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01 (22:33):
But let's let's cut let's cut all this.
I'm gonna cut the BS because I Idon't like this, and I'll tell
you why.
I hate that we need to becareful of what we say because
it's not silos.
Hayden can't do it on his own.
I can't do it on his own.
No, we need T.
You can't do it on.
I don't care who get gives thehelp, I don't care who wins the
money as long as they'recompetent and the person gets
help.
(22:53):
That's all I care about.
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
That's an even and and that's the key, right?
And you have to you have to havemultiple sources.
Right.
Right?
Because no, it's not one sizefits all.
No.
Um we had an issue where I likefutures recovery down in
Florida.
Uh Stacy Charter, Ed, used towork for Genesis House.
We were the only game in town atone point, right?
Right.
(23:15):
So they do the NFL and HHLD havePTOT.
I had a, you know, I gave acontract with the Lowell
Firefighter uh union.
Well, you have somebody that canchart.
All these places that we talkabout, they don't can't do PTOT.
They have to outsource, right?
Well, guess what?
They have a first responderprogram that does real good work
down there.
Um, I love the program, but youcan take a first responder who's
(23:37):
suffering physically, put themdown there, and they're getting
treatment for their occupationalinjury, which might not, where
they might not be able to goback to work, or they might be
stuck going back to work.
So we have them as a tool,right?
Correct.
No, and we have to have, we knowwho does strong, like strong
mental health work just forfirst responders.
(23:58):
We know that California Dr.
Odom is probably right nowoutside of on site, which is
only a week, probably the bestin the business.
Right.
Um, I'm you know, I'm talking,you know, I put 25, I think 20
people out there last year toCalifornia.
You know, and uh and I putpeople all over the place, but
when you're talking mentalhealth, they do a good job.
(24:19):
And they're also theirtherapists, here's the secret
they're culturally competent.
He whole they're coming from thefield.
Right.
He hires them.
You talk to a therapist outthere, I was a cop, I was a
firefighter.
Um, you know, and so can theychange?
Absolutely.
Our job is to keep on top ofthem.
SPEAKER_01 (24:39):
Right.
That's all we know.
And I think that's the that'sthe the mentality that I want to
change.
This is some of the stuff I wentpretty quick.
Oh no, well, I mean, um, I'dlove to keep you on, but uh
we'll see what we can do.
Uh but bottom line for me isthat what people don't
understand is that the culturalcompetency is what people want.
Uh the guys, you know, come inand I I know what's what's funny
(25:02):
is that people don't get that inmy profession sometimes.
Most of the guys will come in,they're either super serious
because they got somethingthey're really on their mind, or
they'll bust my balls right awaybecause I'm a Montreal Canadiens
fan or whatever.
And I know when they busted myballs, I'm like, oh okay,
they're already open to me.
SPEAKER_02 (25:19):
Chris Stylin, that's all I'm gonna say.
But I think that people don'tget that brother-in-law was line
of duty death.
People don't know that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:25):
Oh, I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_02 (25:27):
People don't realize that he's done a lot for
constructions if we survivedthis.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
So But I think that that's what it you know, you
what you're talking about is soimportant.
And one of the things that, youknow, there's a few things I I
love is that, and we we gottawork together on this.
We have uh Behind the Badge andBeyond that we do as a group
here, and we hope to expand itone day to very to train
therapists, to train firstresponders on mental health with
the right cultural competency.
(25:51):
But I think that the bottom lineis that we've for too long in
this field, and you correct meif I'm wrong, people were
siloed.
Oh, this is my referrals, theseare my things, these are at I
don't care.
Like Joe, you you make millionsof dollars.
I don't care.
Yeah, you know, but I and I knowthat's not your goal.
I'm just giving an example.
And I think that's the otherpart that I find is frustrating.
(26:11):
Thank you, New England, andparticularly Massachusetts, and
I calling out everyone.
I don't care who gets theresource, who gets the referral,
who like as long as they'recompetent and the person gets.
SPEAKER_02 (26:21):
Well, you the reason why I love working with you, you
don't have an ego.
And and the ego is what is whatkills this business.
And I, you know, I could talkfor hours on that with the with
some of the leaders on lawenforcement, and that they hurt
our people.
Um, but yeah, I want to be rightsized.
As soon as I get out of rightbeing right sized, um, that's
when I I go back to selling hotdogs.
Um which I I mean I want to dothis for five years.
(26:44):
I want to have an end game.
You know, I I'm fortunate tostill have retirement 13 years.
Um I got a 17-year-old greatson, he's gonna be going to
college.
Um, I want to have an end game.
SPEAKER_01 (26:58):
I think that that's the other part too, is I talk a
lot, and again, another thing wecan go to, you talk about
retirees.
That's whole concepts.
Uh, but you know, like how manytimes did I read the stat that
was it like five years.
Yeah, five years.
Still the same.
And I I tell these guys who Ihave a couple of guys getting
close to retirement right now,and I said to them, we're gonna
(27:19):
start talking about it.
Well, it's in two years.
I'm like, it's time to talkabout it.
Well, we can do a whole segmenton our program, but we just had
a chief from Bolton just droppedoff a heart attack.
I know, I just saw that.
SPEAKER_02 (27:29):
Great guy.
Um, he you know, so And he's acommunity guy, which is Yeah,
you know, if you don't have aplan and a purpose, we're we're
adapting the recovery coachmodel to retiree coaching with
NEVPA.
And Tom Turkl's the key.
If it was Tom Trekle's the guythat said, hey, this is gonna be
done, let's do it and go goodand done it.
So we're we're you know, I'lltell you later, I'll tell you
(27:49):
off camera what we're doing withthat.
Um, but yeah, you know, we'regonna be people can retire, you
can be on the job a week and gethurt and have to retire.
So it's important that we exposethat to everyone.
SPEAKER_01 (28:02):
You expose everyone, and you know, one of the my
first interventions, I wasworking with a uh Mass State
police who uh someone told methere was a some line of duty
death, and everyone was checkingon him for the first couple of
weeks.
He's like, I don't know what todo anymore.
I said, That's the problem.
You can't like two weeks, peoplelike grief does not have a
(28:22):
timeline, it's not like twoweeks, you're good.
And he said he continuedfollowing up until well, I had I
don't know, I'm I'm assuming hestill is, and he's like, that
changed that that partner'slife, that woman's life.
SPEAKER_02 (28:34):
As we end this, I could say is if you have
somebody going on internalinvestigations or you can see an
entry, check on them.
Just keep checking on them, getthem to Steve, get the reach out
to me, Rich, Mass Pair SupportNetwork, call on site, check on
them, check on them, check onthem.
SPEAKER_01 (28:49):
Well, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna say, let's
finish the episode here.
And I thank you for your time.
Simple quick output all yourlate too.
Too quick.
No, no, it's not gonna be tooquick.
We're gonna do this again.
SPEAKER_02 (28:58):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (28:58):
All right.
And um, for those of you who aregonna be joining us for uh
episode 233, uh 234, I'm lookingforward to it, and I'll talk to
you then.
SPEAKER_00 (29:10):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(29:33):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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