December 16, 2025 • 28 mins
Crises rarely look like TV. Most calls aren’t bank robberies; they’re frantic welfare checks, neighbor standoffs over fences, a parent terrified for a missing teen, or someone hearing voices at 2 a.m. We sit down with Dr. Sarah Abbott, a pioneer of the police–clinician co-response model, to unpack how pairing a trained clinician with officers at the point of contact reshapes outcomes: fewer arrests, fewer injuries, and far more dignity for the person in distress.
Sarah shares the origin story from Massachusetts, where “jail diversion” began as a humane alternative for low-level offenses tangled with mental illness and grew into a comprehensive crisis response approach now spreading nationally and internationally. We get honest about the early skepticism and what changed minds: consistent data, strong command support, and the day-to-day reality that most police work involves behavioral health, not crime. We also go inside Section 12—involuntary transport in Massachusetts—and why sending officers with little background information is risky for everyone. The fix is coordination and clarity: share what you legally can, add a clinician to the response, and approach the door with a plan rooted in safety and rapport.
Training is the force multiplier. Sarah breaks down how academy curricula evolved to center practical de-escalation and communication, then explains why the biggest gains come later with advanced, scenario-driven refreshers once officers have real street context. We talk tactics for engaging someone in psychosis without lying or escalating, why 988 is essential but not a complete substitute, and how blending 988, CIT, and co-response builds a smarter, safer safety net. We close with Sarah’s work at William James College and the new Center for Crisis Response and Behavioral Health, designed to scale what works across departments and borders.
If you care about first responder mental health, public safety, and better outcomes for people in crisis, this conversation offers a clear roadmap. Listen, share it with your team, and leave a review so more agencies can find these tools and put them to work in their communities.
To reach Sarah, please visit her website at: https://www.abbottsolutionsforjustice.com
Sarah can also befound on LinkedIn at: https://www.linkedin.com/company/abbott-solutions-for-justice-llc/?viewAsMember=true
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Beast Home.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_04 (00:29):
You know you've heard me talk about this before.
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(00:51):
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Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 234.
If you haven't listened toepisode 233 A and B, or one or
(01:14):
two, depending on how you lookat it, it was Joe Rizzotti.
He's one character and a half.
Really great guy.
I hope you listen to his stuff.
He has a lot of stories.
He believes in the mental healthand protecting the first
responder world and havingpeople who are culturally
competent, which is all up myalley.
So go listen to that.
But episode 234 is personal.
And what I mean by that is this.
(01:35):
When I came to this country, Igot lucky enough to work on a
crisis team within 10 months.
And one of the first people whotrained me in my triage job at
that crisis work was the myguest today.
She was supportive then.
And then when she innovatedsomething that I know we're
going to talk about, she alsoinvited me to those meetings and
even let me co-respond a fewtimes.
(01:57):
She's a very important person.
I don't know if she's ever knownhow important she is to me.
So maybe this is a shock to her,but I thought I think about her
regularly.
Absolutely adore this woman.
Dr.
Sarah Abbott, welcome toResilience Development
Investments.
SPEAKER_01 (02:12):
Wow, Steve, thank you.
That's a great welcome.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_04 (02:16):
Well, it's a truthful one.
SPEAKER_01 (02:17):
Well, thank you.
I appreciate that.
It seems like a long time ago.
SPEAKER_04 (02:20):
I mean, we were both kids.
Kids.
I remember like telling youtelling me, you know, I'm a kid
and I'm teaching you how to dothat.
SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
Um, I think I was 27.
SPEAKER_04 (02:31):
Yeah, and I was like 24.
SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (02:33):
And I was gonna change the world.
Same.
Look at me now, nothing.
Um but no, I I really, you know,you were really helpful because
we had, um, for those of you whowill know us, there's the
dreadful care track to manage.
The sorry I didn't brought upPTSD.
It's too early.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
It's been a long time since I've thought about
that system, but yeah, we had tomanage that database and teach
others how to use it and beexcited about it at the same
time.
So, yeah, we've come a long way.
We have AI now, which is writingnotes for people.
So we have seen uh quite a bitof improvement in uh documenting
(03:15):
and and keeping records.
SPEAKER_04 (03:17):
Well, I I I promote my own herefree.ai that I
absolutely love.
Yep.
But I remember that DOS caretrack.
Yeah.
Press enter on this one, butdon't press enter on this one.
This is tab.
And it's tab twice, not once onthis one, and this one is three
times, and then enter.
SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
Yeah.
And you're like while taking ahundred phone calls.
SPEAKER_04 (03:38):
Oh, yeah, but suicidal with a plan and get a
section 12.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
Right, that's right.
Let me just figure out how toenter this.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (03:45):
But I have a lot of fond memories of our work
together.
Um, we have a few people thatare in common that are friends.
Yep.
Um, and a few people who've beenon here, including Jay Ball,
obviously, and uh Sarah Cloud.
Yeah, yeah, uh, who's been onhere, but they don't know who
Sarah Abbott is.
If they don't know, I'm a littlesad, but I'd like them to learn
(04:08):
learn more about who you are.
SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
Okay.
So I'm Sarah Abbott.
I came to the United States in1992 to work for a company at
the time that was called theBridge of Central Mass.
Um, yeah, and they brought overpeople from the UK uh in the 90s
to work in uh the residentialtreatment programs and to uh
(04:30):
really address a workforceshortage that we had here.
I know they went to Canada too.
Um I met Jay Ball's wife, uhDonna Marie, also at our
previous job.
And uh we were all on similarvisas, came here to work uh and
to help the economy and to helppeople in need.
(04:52):
And we got thrown right in atthe deep end.
In uh I was an awake overnightperson, uh, which was uh is
ironic because I remember those.
I cannot be awake at night now,and um I really felt you know
fell in love with uh crisis, asyou know, working in in
residential programs.
Um I feel like you learned somuch about systems, about
(05:15):
people's illness and conditionand hope.
Um, the hope that people havefor the future, and I really
enjoyed most of all the crisiswork.
I enjoyed when people um, youknow, I didn't love that people
were in crisis, but I enjoyedbeing able to help.
Uh, we did many trips to uh PESto see people in crisis and uh
(05:40):
the emergency department, andsometimes people would come to
the program, and that was reallymy first exposure to um the
complexities of crisis, thedynamics of crisis, and um how
to best respond to it.
Uh from there I went toAdvocates where I met you and
others.
That was in 1997, and uh reallyspent the bulk of my career to
(06:04):
date in that organization.
Uh, five years on the crisisteam in Framingham, and then um
to date 22 and a half years uhworking with the Framingham
Police Department, where I gotto be the first uh person in um,
one of the first in the country,but definitely the first in
Massachusetts, to ride alongsidepolice officers to calls for
(06:29):
service for people in crisis.
We uh called it jail diversionthen, uh, because the purpose at
that time was really to divertpeople who were committing
nuisance low-level offenses anddivert them to hospital or to
divert them from arrest in thosemoments.
(06:49):
And um that changed my life.
Um walking into that departmentand uh being part of a movement
to improve uh police responsesto people in crisis, to ensure
that police have the tools thatthey need on calls, and they're
not prepared or what or trainedappropriately to respond to
(07:12):
people in crisis, although thatis uh a large part of what they
do.
So this model really made sensebecause of that.
It's been incredibly successfulin Massachusetts nationally and
internationally.
Uh been doing some work forabout almost five years now with
Angada Shikana, the Irish PoliceAgency, who are replicating the
(07:36):
Framing and Police co-responsemodel, and launched a pilot of
that in Limerick this year inJanuary.
So kind of, you know, been doinga lot of reflecting as I think
about my career, as I hopefullywork towards my um my last
(07:56):
decade of work.
Um, what have I learned?
What have um what do otherpeople need to know?
And um the role of resilience.
So, you know, I think I'm reallyhappy that you invited me to
speak about resilience inparticular today, uh, because
it's been one of the themesthroughout my career and uh the
(08:16):
work that I've done.
SPEAKER_04 (08:18):
Well, I think that you're all also not even uh not
doing enough justice to all thegreat work you've done.
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (08:25):
Um I remember going into those meetings with you.
And we had everyone on board onthe leadership side.
Yeah, and then we had otherpeople who saw us as the
hug-a-tug program.
SPEAKER_01 (08:38):
Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_04 (08:39):
And we converted, I should say you mostly, but we
and our team.
Yeah, uh, I go back to Abby andAmanda and uh Caitlin and we
were talking about Caitlin.
Um and I was actually out nottoo late, like yeah, like a few
hours ago with uh CatherineBranca.
SPEAKER_01 (08:57):
Oh, no kidding.
SPEAKER_04 (08:58):
So all people you know small world, and I think
about how we changed.
I know I give you more creditthan the others because you were
there for all that time, but wechanged the view of mental
health in such a dramatic waythat you know it's become not
only you say nationally, I thinkMassachusetts has adapted it
(09:21):
nationally, internationally, andwe changed the way to see the
CIT program as the only answer.
The co-response model being theycan work hand in hand.
It was not a one versus theother, yeah, but CIT was the way
to go across the country for solong.
Yeah, yeah.
So I think that I you changingthat and seeing that state to
state.
(09:41):
Yeah.
And I was in California at onepoint a couple of years ago, and
they had a co-response modelthere.
And I'm like, does Sarah knowabout this?
Um but yeah, I think that that'sthe stuff.
And sitting there with um, Iremember with Paul uh and Craig,
and they would be like, You gotcarte blanche, go ahead.
(10:02):
Yeah, and we just had a greatsupport system and framing hand
that just made it go so well.
Yeah, and I think about all thegreat work you did.
So you don't give yourselfenough credit.
This is a it was groundbreaking.
Um, I was I was proud to be partof it, even as a small part of
it.
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
Yep, my Saturday guy.
SPEAKER_04 (10:21):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (10:21):
That's that's what I was, which was great.
We needed coverage, you know,and you were great at it.
SPEAKER_04 (10:27):
And after a couple of years, they became so used to
us, they'd be like, you don'thave anyone on.
SPEAKER_01 (10:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (10:32):
I remember the next level would go off.
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
We are aging ourselves for Next
Linefficience.
We that it was like awhoppy-talkie, yeah, and it was
fantastic in our role becauseyou didn't have to call and wait
for someone to answer, you justgot right through.
Um, and we used it uhextensively in the field, right?
That was such a good innovation.
Um, you know, I think when youtalk about the longevity of
(11:01):
working with this model ofcarrying it through uh some
challenging times, uh there isan arc of kind of resilience
related to that because, asyou're right, you know, when
this first started, we didn'treally know what we were doing.
We just knew that we needed thatthe the police knew, and this is
(11:22):
a police-led model, um they knewthat they had were constantly
arresting people um for thingsthat they wouldn't arrest um
other people for if they didn'thave a mental health condition
because they had to stop thebehavior, they have to respond
to the community, and they umhave limited time.
SPEAKER_03 (11:43):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:43):
So, you know, I feel that over time the model has
come under scrutiny, has comeunder uh skepticism, um, and and
you know, staying with it,knowing what we know, knowing
that it uh is the most effectivework I've ever been part of, and
I've seen it through my researchand others change department
(12:06):
culture, change officerbehavior, reduce force, reduce
injuries.
Um I think you know, when youhave a model like that, uh
people have sometimes, you know,said, well, you know, you being
there on these, on the crew inthe cruiser, on in the
department actually enhances thelikelihood that police are going
(12:29):
to get a call for servicebecause you're there.
And I think that that's amisunderstanding.
SPEAKER_03 (12:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:36):
Um we do we have no control over the calls that come
in.
And one of the biggest shocks tome coming here, coming to a
department, seeing inside thedoor what was going on was the
number of calls police go tothat have nothing to do with a
crime.
And so it's really been part ofmy mission to make sure if we're
(12:58):
going to send police to thesecalls, if we're going to call
well-being checks in, um, thepolice need to be prepared and
equipped to respond to that.
That is not a criminal matter.
Um, but after five, um, there'sno one really around to do this.
And, you know, people use thepolice for all sorts of things,
(13:19):
which blew me away.
I didn't have any idea thenumber of social issues that
police are asked to get involvedwith.
Some of the cause I can recall,you know, there was a neighbor
dispute about offense.
And I was shocked at how upsetpeople got about offense.
But they did.
And it this was going on for along time, and there was
(13:40):
violence threatened andrestraining orders, and we're
talking about the the placementof offense.
So underneath all that was a lotof anger and a lot of um uh
inability to kind of cope withwith their emotions, which made
it a call that I could behelpful on.
But I was thinking, why are wecalling the police to this?
(14:01):
You know, why can't we resolveour own problems?
But we are overdependent uponthem.
And, you know, 988 coming out umhas been, you know, an attempt
to redirect calls from thepolice, but and they continue to
get them, and as long as theycontinue to get them, I think a
(14:22):
social worker should be present.
SPEAKER_04 (14:25):
That's exactly what I was gonna say.
One of the things that I've seenin other places, they're like,
oh, we'll let social workers ormental health counselors answer
alone these calls.
That's not the answer either.
I think it's the co-responsethat's key and that you really
pushed for.
SPEAKER_03 (14:42):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (14:42):
You know, I I remember getting a lot of, you
know, we talked about Sarah, butyou know, I go back to even Bill
Taylor, the late great Bill BillTaylor, yeah, who's like, I
don't want to be a movie prop, Iwant to help these, and your
idea is great.
And we had so much support evenwith the resistance that really
helped.
SPEAKER_03 (14:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (14:59):
Um and I think that's the stuff that we we
needed to see, and then we sawthe use.
You started writing down thestats, and you know, lo and
behold, the state ofMassachusetts or Commonwealth, I
should say, paid attention toit.
Yep, yep.
And I think that's all again thestuff that you'd shown that we
had maybe to have police there,but that could have been clearly
(15:21):
something we could handle, wedidn't need anyone else.
And then there's times where wego to a call that's like
suicidal, they might haveweapons.
Yeah, it's good to have a copthere in case.
But ultimately, if you we cancalm the situation down and not
have it ended peacefully becausewe have skills that we can show
the police, but also useourselves.
(15:41):
I think that collaboration waskey because that was just
another tool in our tool belt.
Yeah, and for us, learning howthe other side lives was so
important because I rememberagain in '99 sitting in the
triage right in the middle ofthe night.
Yeah.
And I'm like, huh, that sectionagain or whatever.
And then I'd be like, Why arethey so annoyed by that?
SPEAKER_03 (16:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (16:01):
And then you ride along and you're like, ah, yeah,
I get it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Yep.
Yeah, I'm glad you raised theSection 12 issue, which is the
Massachusetts commitment uhstatute for involuntary uh trans
section 12A transport to the ERfor further assessment.
Um, police are routinely askedto serve Section 12s uh with
limited information.
(16:26):
A lot of the training that we'vebeen doing recently with police
and co-responders is aroundevaluating the Section 12 and
getting more information beforeyou go out.
Because sometimes these come inoff the fax machine, an officer
is sent, and uh we've seenacross the country how uh these
(16:50):
types of calls can go reallybadly.
SPEAKER_03 (16:52):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
And um if, for example, if the person doesn't
answer, are we kicking in thedoor?
Are they uh walking away?
Liability risk, all of thatfalls on law enforcement from
this one piece of paper thatsomebody faxed over to them.
So we do need to be morecognizant about our utilization
(17:14):
of the police, and when we havemore information, I think in an
emergency, you're allowed toshare that information, and a
section 12 is an emergency, thenwe should be providing police
with all of the valuableinformation that we have instead
of seeing them as our uh youknow, the delivery of this piece
(17:36):
of paper, this is taking awaysomeone's Fourth Amendment
rights, this is removing themfrom their home and their
environment involuntarily.
And when and if people get hurtor the police get hurt, or if
force is used, or um, you know,people witness this, um, it has
to, it has to really fall on theperson that's issuing it to make
(18:01):
sure that it's uh legit and umnot just we well, we'd like to
see them and we can't get themto go voluntarily.
These Section 12s um are uhprolifically flying around the
state, and uh police are goingout and serving them and uh
think a co-responder should bewith them.
(18:22):
I think if they want aco-responder, if they want a
clinical person with them, everypolice officer in the
Commonwealth should have accessto that.
That's part of my mission, theorganization that I founded, our
mission, but also to go beyondthat.
Um, and as you said, you go toCalifornia and they have
co-responders.
(18:42):
I was in Texas visiting myhusband's sister, and I was in
the coffee shop and I wasstanding behind a police
officer, and we just it was inAustin, and we just said hi, and
I just asked him, like, youknow, how do you manage mental
health cause?
He's like, we have aco-responder.
I'm like, of course you do,that's fantastic.
(19:02):
Um, but that's when I started torealize, wow, this is really
shifting, um, and departmentsare seeing this as a win-win,
and uh the community isbenefiting from this
partnership.
SPEAKER_04 (19:16):
But I think we bring a special touch when you're not
a police officer is a differenttouch, right?
Yeah.
Um there's a few things I wantto say to that.
SPEAKER_03 (19:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (19:25):
Because in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts,
which I just praised, but now Iwill criticize, a police officer
can sign a section 12A.
A licensed mental healthcounselor cannot.
unknown (19:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (19:38):
And I've had too many police officers who come to
my like as individual sessionswith me, like, how in the bloody
hell does that make sense?
And I'm like, that's a goodquestion.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then one of the things,which brings me to my other
point.
When I think about particularlymass state police, but I know
like other um why am I blankingon the name?
(19:58):
Um, trainings.
Academies.
Thank you very much.
Well, I don't know why I wasblanking.
Um But with the academies, youdid something too that you know
you didn't toot your own hornabout, but you helped bring the
mental health part be longer forthose trainings so they're more
aware of how it works, whetherthey had a co-response model or
(20:20):
not.
And that's something I wanted totouch base, is because I don't
think the police officers didn'twant to know, they just didn't
know because it was what eighthours, I think.
When I remember sitting in themeetings and be like, it's eight
hours.
SPEAKER_01 (20:32):
Eight hours out of 26, 27 weeks.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (20:35):
And you changed that.
I just wanted also talk a littlebit about that and how that also
changed the way police officerssee our job.
SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
Yeah, and I, you know, it's still not long
enough.
I I don't think anybody wouldargue with that.
Um, but I also, yes, we wereinvolved in uh doubling uh the
curriculum time, uh, but alsothe focus of it.
And you know, when I I used toteach at the MBTA Academy many,
(21:02):
many years ago, and at that timeit was eight hours, and it, you
know, the curriculum that I hadhad been used before was really
about uh contained a lot ofmyths about people with mental
health conditions, and so wewere asked to be part of a team
that redeveloped that curriculumto think more about how we can
(21:26):
help uh de-escalate instead ofum assuming we're gonna need
force, assuming that um peoplewith a mental health condition
are more dangerous, whichthey're not, we know, then um
really thinking about what ourrole in this is and helping with
de-escalation and um further, II do believe that it
(21:49):
de-escalation, I know it it's ait's got it's bandied around a
lot, but in its true sense, youknow, I think that de-escalation
should be weaved uh throughoutthe entire curriculum and that
it's not a standalone topicbecause it shows up in all
police calls, the ability tode-escalate is there probably
(22:10):
80% of the time, whether it's amental health call or whether
it's a car accident andsomeone's very upset, um,
whether someone was arrested andnow they're very upset, you
know, it permeates the wholerole.
And being able to uh understandgiving time and space and
(22:31):
building rapport with people canactually prevent needing to use
force, can actually move theneedle and get people where we
want them to be.
So the curriculum is important.
Um, also, they're new recruits.
My experience of it when Itaught that was, you know, many
of them kind of were zoning outa little bit.
(22:52):
And I said, you know, youprobably don't think that this
is gonna impact you.
You probably think that you'regoing to be going to bank
robberies and uh car chases andum murders, right?
But you're working in, you know,in enter small town name,
chances are you're not going tobe doing a lot of that.
(23:13):
Um, so you might want to listenbecause you are gonna be doing a
lot of this, and they didn'treally even believe me.
They didn't really even thinkthat once that, you know, that
their first few calls may besomeone in a mental health
crisis or someone usingsubstances or someone whose kid
is missing, and they'recompletely hysterical, right,
and how to manage that.
(23:34):
So um I do think that there's auh the space for that in the
academy, but I think the theongoing uh advanced training
that we've been involved in,that I've been developing over
the last four years at WilliamJames College actually builds
upon the the experience thatthey have on the street.
(23:56):
So they in the academy theydon't know what they don't know,
they have no context for itusually, they um aren't really
even sure what their communityuh is going to be like to work
in.
So I feel that having them comeback after the academy, maybe a
year or two years out, and getinvolved in some more advanced
(24:16):
training, uh, they're much morereceptive to it.
They're like, you were right,we're doing more of the I mean,
six estimates are 60, 70 percentof police work has nothing to do
with policing.
SPEAKER_03 (24:28):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
Um, but they are the default providers of behavioral
health services uh after hours,unfortunately.
SPEAKER_04 (24:35):
100%.
Yeah.
You know, I even um you know,recently I I I did feel like I
was cheating on you.
I did a lot of trainings forCITs.
SPEAKER_01 (24:44):
That's not cheating.
There's room for both.
I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding.
Just wanted to make you laugh.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (24:49):
But I you know, I think there's room for both, and
that's certainly something thathas changed in my thought
process in the last 10 years orso.
Yeah.
But doing that CIT training,they would bring in more
seasoned Right, right.
As well as the younger guys.
Yeah.
And it was fascinating to hearthese preconceived notion, even
for people who've been done thatin like 10, 15 years.
(25:12):
And we're giving an example ofschizophrenia at one point.
I had shared.
I'm like, look, if you're right,we're gonna prove them right.
So just get on the, you know,just get get on the gurney and
we'll we'll get you to thehospital.
And someone said, Well, didn'tyou just validate that they were
right?
I'm like, I didn't make anypromises.
And I said, That's the importantpart.
I didn't say I'm gonna get youoff.
(25:33):
But a lot of them are like, Oh,you can do that.
I'm like, Yeah, you if youchallenge the the the illusion,
you're you're done.
unknown (25:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (25:40):
And if you just feed into it a little bit without
making any promises, you'refine.
So that's the thin line that'sreally hard to explain for
mental health people, frankly,yeah, as well as law enforcement
people.
SPEAKER_01 (25:52):
Yeah, I mean, we're in, you know, we're you know, in
training as young clinicians, wewe have um, you know, a very
clear set of ethics andboundaries, and one of those is
you know, you don't lie to yourpatients, right?
And we and we shouldn't lie topeople, um, but also, and it
reminds me of one of the firstdays I was at the department,
(26:14):
somebody walked into the stationuh to report a crime, and they
were like, Okay, what's thecrime?
Well, it was theft, somebodystole my checkbook, um, and
they're writing checks.
Okay, all right, we'll get adetective down, so they get a
detective down.
I was in dispatch at the time,so I was hearing all this play
out, and it sounded very, youknow, routine type of call.
(26:36):
And the detective came down andhe said, Do you have any idea
who might be doing this?
And the individual was like,Well, yeah, it's Adolf Hitler.
And the officer said, Um, well,that can't be true.
Adolf Hitler died in a bunker,and and I'm like, Well, yes, and
and you know, you get it, right?
(26:58):
You you you want you get why umnot just law enforcement, lots
of people think that they cancorrect that.
Um, but but what's the what'sthe end goal, right?
Do you are you trying to beright?
Are you trying to prove themwrong?
That's not building rapport,right?
It's actually kind of um callingout something.
(27:18):
So uh even in moments like that,to your point, I recognize that
just to re reframe that um isvery powerful.
And it's like that you you don'tneed to, you know, there's no
um, you know, com winning thatargument with someone who's not
reality testing, right?
SPEAKER_04 (27:37):
Well, I want to wrap up by saying that William James
uh college has not only offereda lot of great trainings on the
subject, they now have uh partof it where you have created a
um, I don't know what to callit, program.
A center.
SPEAKER_01 (27:51):
A center for crisis response and behavioral health.
SPEAKER_04 (27:53):
Yep.
And I want to give you a littlechance to talk about it.
You want to stay for another 20minutes?
I know you're on a timeline, butwe would love to keep you down
for another 20 minutes.
That's fine.
Just finish off on the JDP slashco-response model.
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(28:31):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
Welcome to Resilience Development in Action
with Steve Beast Home.
This is the podcast dedicated tofirst responder mental health,
helping police, fire, EMS,dispatchers, and paramedics
create better growthenvironments for themselves and
their teams.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_04 (00:29):
You know you've heard me talk about this before.
Get free.ai.
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(00:51):
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Well, hi everyone, and welcometo episode 234.
If you haven't listened toepisode 233 A and B, or one or
(01:14):
two, depending on how you lookat it, it was Joe Rizzotti.
He's one character and a half.
Really great guy.
I hope you listen to his stuff.
He has a lot of stories.
He believes in the mental healthand protecting the first
responder world and havingpeople who are culturally
competent, which is all up myalley.
So go listen to that.
But episode 234 is personal.
And what I mean by that is this.
(01:35):
When I came to this country, Igot lucky enough to work on a
crisis team within 10 months.
And one of the first people whotrained me in my triage job at
that crisis work was the myguest today.
She was supportive then.
And then when she innovatedsomething that I know we're
going to talk about, she alsoinvited me to those meetings and
even let me co-respond a fewtimes.
(01:57):
She's a very important person.
I don't know if she's ever knownhow important she is to me.
So maybe this is a shock to her,but I thought I think about her
regularly.
Absolutely adore this woman.
Dr.
Sarah Abbott, welcome toResilience Development
Investments.
SPEAKER_01 (02:12):
Wow, Steve, thank you.
That's a great welcome.
It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_04 (02:16):
Well, it's a truthful one.
SPEAKER_01 (02:17):
Well, thank you.
I appreciate that.
It seems like a long time ago.
SPEAKER_04 (02:20):
I mean, we were both kids.
Kids.
I remember like telling youtelling me, you know, I'm a kid
and I'm teaching you how to dothat.
SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
Um, I think I was 27.
SPEAKER_04 (02:31):
Yeah, and I was like 24.
SPEAKER_02 (02:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (02:33):
And I was gonna change the world.
Same.
Look at me now, nothing.
Um but no, I I really, you know,you were really helpful because
we had, um, for those of you whowill know us, there's the
dreadful care track to manage.
The sorry I didn't brought upPTSD.
It's too early.
SPEAKER_01 (02:52):
It's been a long time since I've thought about
that system, but yeah, we had tomanage that database and teach
others how to use it and beexcited about it at the same
time.
So, yeah, we've come a long way.
We have AI now, which is writingnotes for people.
So we have seen uh quite a bitof improvement in uh documenting
(03:15):
and and keeping records.
SPEAKER_04 (03:17):
Well, I I I promote my own herefree.ai that I
absolutely love.
Yep.
But I remember that DOS caretrack.
Yeah.
Press enter on this one, butdon't press enter on this one.
This is tab.
And it's tab twice, not once onthis one, and this one is three
times, and then enter.
SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
Yeah.
And you're like while taking ahundred phone calls.
SPEAKER_04 (03:38):
Oh, yeah, but suicidal with a plan and get a
section 12.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
Right, that's right.
Let me just figure out how toenter this.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (03:45):
But I have a lot of fond memories of our work
together.
Um, we have a few people thatare in common that are friends.
Yep.
Um, and a few people who've beenon here, including Jay Ball,
obviously, and uh Sarah Cloud.
Yeah, yeah, uh, who's been onhere, but they don't know who
Sarah Abbott is.
If they don't know, I'm a littlesad, but I'd like them to learn
(04:08):
learn more about who you are.
SPEAKER_01 (04:09):
Okay.
So I'm Sarah Abbott.
I came to the United States in1992 to work for a company at
the time that was called theBridge of Central Mass.
Um, yeah, and they brought overpeople from the UK uh in the 90s
to work in uh the residentialtreatment programs and to uh
(04:30):
really address a workforceshortage that we had here.
I know they went to Canada too.
Um I met Jay Ball's wife, uhDonna Marie, also at our
previous job.
And uh we were all on similarvisas, came here to work uh and
to help the economy and to helppeople in need.
(04:52):
And we got thrown right in atthe deep end.
In uh I was an awake overnightperson, uh, which was uh is
ironic because I remember those.
I cannot be awake at night now,and um I really felt you know
fell in love with uh crisis, asyou know, working in in
residential programs.
Um I feel like you learned somuch about systems, about
(05:15):
people's illness and conditionand hope.
Um, the hope that people havefor the future, and I really
enjoyed most of all the crisiswork.
I enjoyed when people um, youknow, I didn't love that people
were in crisis, but I enjoyedbeing able to help.
Uh, we did many trips to uh PESto see people in crisis and uh
(05:40):
the emergency department, andsometimes people would come to
the program, and that was reallymy first exposure to um the
complexities of crisis, thedynamics of crisis, and um how
to best respond to it.
Uh from there I went toAdvocates where I met you and
others.
That was in 1997, and uh reallyspent the bulk of my career to
(06:04):
date in that organization.
Uh, five years on the crisisteam in Framingham, and then um
to date 22 and a half years uhworking with the Framingham
Police Department, where I gotto be the first uh person in um,
one of the first in the country,but definitely the first in
Massachusetts, to ride alongsidepolice officers to calls for
(06:29):
service for people in crisis.
We uh called it jail diversionthen, uh, because the purpose at
that time was really to divertpeople who were committing
nuisance low-level offenses anddivert them to hospital or to
divert them from arrest in thosemoments.
(06:49):
And um that changed my life.
Um walking into that departmentand uh being part of a movement
to improve uh police responsesto people in crisis, to ensure
that police have the tools thatthey need on calls, and they're
not prepared or what or trainedappropriately to respond to
(07:12):
people in crisis, although thatis uh a large part of what they
do.
So this model really made sensebecause of that.
It's been incredibly successfulin Massachusetts nationally and
internationally.
Uh been doing some work forabout almost five years now with
Angada Shikana, the Irish PoliceAgency, who are replicating the
(07:36):
Framing and Police co-responsemodel, and launched a pilot of
that in Limerick this year inJanuary.
So kind of, you know, been doinga lot of reflecting as I think
about my career, as I hopefullywork towards my um my last
(07:56):
decade of work.
Um, what have I learned?
What have um what do otherpeople need to know?
And um the role of resilience.
So, you know, I think I'm reallyhappy that you invited me to
speak about resilience inparticular today, uh, because
it's been one of the themesthroughout my career and uh the
(08:16):
work that I've done.
SPEAKER_04 (08:18):
Well, I think that you're all also not even uh not
doing enough justice to all thegreat work you've done.
SPEAKER_02 (08:24):
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (08:25):
Um I remember going into those meetings with you.
And we had everyone on board onthe leadership side.
Yeah, and then we had otherpeople who saw us as the
hug-a-tug program.
SPEAKER_01 (08:38):
Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_04 (08:39):
And we converted, I should say you mostly, but we
and our team.
Yeah, uh, I go back to Abby andAmanda and uh Caitlin and we
were talking about Caitlin.
Um and I was actually out nottoo late, like yeah, like a few
hours ago with uh CatherineBranca.
SPEAKER_01 (08:57):
Oh, no kidding.
SPEAKER_04 (08:58):
So all people you know small world, and I think
about how we changed.
I know I give you more creditthan the others because you were
there for all that time, but wechanged the view of mental
health in such a dramatic waythat you know it's become not
only you say nationally, I thinkMassachusetts has adapted it
(09:21):
nationally, internationally, andwe changed the way to see the
CIT program as the only answer.
The co-response model being theycan work hand in hand.
It was not a one versus theother, yeah, but CIT was the way
to go across the country for solong.
Yeah, yeah.
So I think that I you changingthat and seeing that state to
state.
(09:41):
Yeah.
And I was in California at onepoint a couple of years ago, and
they had a co-response modelthere.
And I'm like, does Sarah knowabout this?
Um but yeah, I think that that'sthe stuff.
And sitting there with um, Iremember with Paul uh and Craig,
and they would be like, You gotcarte blanche, go ahead.
(10:02):
Yeah, and we just had a greatsupport system and framing hand
that just made it go so well.
Yeah, and I think about all thegreat work you did.
So you don't give yourselfenough credit.
This is a it was groundbreaking.
Um, I was I was proud to be partof it, even as a small part of
it.
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
Yep, my Saturday guy.
SPEAKER_04 (10:21):
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02 (10:21):
That's that's what I was, which was great.
We needed coverage, you know,and you were great at it.
SPEAKER_04 (10:27):
And after a couple of years, they became so used to
us, they'd be like, you don'thave anyone on.
SPEAKER_01 (10:32):
Right.
SPEAKER_04 (10:32):
I remember the next level would go off.
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
We are aging ourselves for Next
Linefficience.
We that it was like awhoppy-talkie, yeah, and it was
fantastic in our role becauseyou didn't have to call and wait
for someone to answer, you justgot right through.
Um, and we used it uhextensively in the field, right?
That was such a good innovation.
Um, you know, I think when youtalk about the longevity of
(11:01):
working with this model ofcarrying it through uh some
challenging times, uh there isan arc of kind of resilience
related to that because, asyou're right, you know, when
this first started, we didn'treally know what we were doing.
We just knew that we needed thatthe the police knew, and this is
(11:22):
a police-led model, um they knewthat they had were constantly
arresting people um for thingsthat they wouldn't arrest um
other people for if they didn'thave a mental health condition
because they had to stop thebehavior, they have to respond
to the community, and they umhave limited time.
SPEAKER_03 (11:43):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (11:43):
So, you know, I feel that over time the model has
come under scrutiny, has comeunder uh skepticism, um, and and
you know, staying with it,knowing what we know, knowing
that it uh is the most effectivework I've ever been part of, and
I've seen it through my researchand others change department
(12:06):
culture, change officerbehavior, reduce force, reduce
injuries.
Um I think you know, when youhave a model like that, uh
people have sometimes, you know,said, well, you know, you being
there on these, on the crew inthe cruiser, on in the
department actually enhances thelikelihood that police are going
(12:29):
to get a call for servicebecause you're there.
And I think that that's amisunderstanding.
SPEAKER_03 (12:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:36):
Um we do we have no control over the calls that come
in.
And one of the biggest shocks tome coming here, coming to a
department, seeing inside thedoor what was going on was the
number of calls police go tothat have nothing to do with a
crime.
And so it's really been part ofmy mission to make sure if we're
(12:58):
going to send police to thesecalls, if we're going to call
well-being checks in, um, thepolice need to be prepared and
equipped to respond to that.
That is not a criminal matter.
Um, but after five, um, there'sno one really around to do this.
And, you know, people use thepolice for all sorts of things,
(13:19):
which blew me away.
I didn't have any idea thenumber of social issues that
police are asked to get involvedwith.
Some of the cause I can recall,you know, there was a neighbor
dispute about offense.
And I was shocked at how upsetpeople got about offense.
But they did.
And it this was going on for along time, and there was
(13:40):
violence threatened andrestraining orders, and we're
talking about the the placementof offense.
So underneath all that was a lotof anger and a lot of um uh
inability to kind of cope withwith their emotions, which made
it a call that I could behelpful on.
But I was thinking, why are wecalling the police to this?
(14:01):
You know, why can't we resolveour own problems?
But we are overdependent uponthem.
And, you know, 988 coming out umhas been, you know, an attempt
to redirect calls from thepolice, but and they continue to
get them, and as long as theycontinue to get them, I think a
(14:22):
social worker should be present.
SPEAKER_04 (14:25):
That's exactly what I was gonna say.
One of the things that I've seenin other places, they're like,
oh, we'll let social workers ormental health counselors answer
alone these calls.
That's not the answer either.
I think it's the co-responsethat's key and that you really
pushed for.
SPEAKER_03 (14:42):
Yep.
SPEAKER_04 (14:42):
You know, I I remember getting a lot of, you
know, we talked about Sarah, butyou know, I go back to even Bill
Taylor, the late great Bill BillTaylor, yeah, who's like, I
don't want to be a movie prop, Iwant to help these, and your
idea is great.
And we had so much support evenwith the resistance that really
helped.
SPEAKER_03 (14:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (14:59):
Um and I think that's the stuff that we we
needed to see, and then we sawthe use.
You started writing down thestats, and you know, lo and
behold, the state ofMassachusetts or Commonwealth, I
should say, paid attention toit.
Yep, yep.
And I think that's all again thestuff that you'd shown that we
had maybe to have police there,but that could have been clearly
(15:21):
something we could handle, wedidn't need anyone else.
And then there's times where wego to a call that's like
suicidal, they might haveweapons.
Yeah, it's good to have a copthere in case.
But ultimately, if you we cancalm the situation down and not
have it ended peacefully becausewe have skills that we can show
the police, but also useourselves.
(15:41):
I think that collaboration waskey because that was just
another tool in our tool belt.
Yeah, and for us, learning howthe other side lives was so
important because I rememberagain in '99 sitting in the
triage right in the middle ofthe night.
Yeah.
And I'm like, huh, that sectionagain or whatever.
And then I'd be like, Why arethey so annoyed by that?
SPEAKER_03 (16:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (16:01):
And then you ride along and you're like, ah, yeah,
I get it.
SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Yep.
Yeah, I'm glad you raised theSection 12 issue, which is the
Massachusetts commitment uhstatute for involuntary uh trans
section 12A transport to the ERfor further assessment.
Um, police are routinely askedto serve Section 12s uh with
limited information.
(16:26):
A lot of the training that we'vebeen doing recently with police
and co-responders is aroundevaluating the Section 12 and
getting more information beforeyou go out.
Because sometimes these come inoff the fax machine, an officer
is sent, and uh we've seenacross the country how uh these
(16:50):
types of calls can go reallybadly.
SPEAKER_03 (16:52):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:53):
And um if, for example, if the person doesn't
answer, are we kicking in thedoor?
Are they uh walking away?
Liability risk, all of thatfalls on law enforcement from
this one piece of paper thatsomebody faxed over to them.
So we do need to be morecognizant about our utilization
(17:14):
of the police, and when we havemore information, I think in an
emergency, you're allowed toshare that information, and a
section 12 is an emergency, thenwe should be providing police
with all of the valuableinformation that we have instead
of seeing them as our uh youknow, the delivery of this piece
(17:36):
of paper, this is taking awaysomeone's Fourth Amendment
rights, this is removing themfrom their home and their
environment involuntarily.
And when and if people get hurtor the police get hurt, or if
force is used, or um, you know,people witness this, um, it has
to, it has to really fall on theperson that's issuing it to make
(18:01):
sure that it's uh legit and umnot just we well, we'd like to
see them and we can't get themto go voluntarily.
These Section 12s um are uhprolifically flying around the
state, and uh police are goingout and serving them and uh
think a co-responder should bewith them.
(18:22):
I think if they want aco-responder, if they want a
clinical person with them, everypolice officer in the
Commonwealth should have accessto that.
That's part of my mission, theorganization that I founded, our
mission, but also to go beyondthat.
Um, and as you said, you go toCalifornia and they have
co-responders.
(18:42):
I was in Texas visiting myhusband's sister, and I was in
the coffee shop and I wasstanding behind a police
officer, and we just it was inAustin, and we just said hi, and
I just asked him, like, youknow, how do you manage mental
health cause?
He's like, we have aco-responder.
I'm like, of course you do,that's fantastic.
(19:02):
Um, but that's when I started torealize, wow, this is really
shifting, um, and departmentsare seeing this as a win-win,
and uh the community isbenefiting from this
partnership.
SPEAKER_04 (19:16):
But I think we bring a special touch when you're not
a police officer is a differenttouch, right?
Yeah.
Um there's a few things I wantto say to that.
SPEAKER_03 (19:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (19:25):
Because in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts,
which I just praised, but now Iwill criticize, a police officer
can sign a section 12A.
A licensed mental healthcounselor cannot.
unknown (19:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (19:38):
And I've had too many police officers who come to
my like as individual sessionswith me, like, how in the bloody
hell does that make sense?
And I'm like, that's a goodquestion.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then one of the things,which brings me to my other
point.
When I think about particularlymass state police, but I know
like other um why am I blankingon the name?
(19:58):
Um, trainings.
Academies.
Thank you very much.
Well, I don't know why I wasblanking.
Um But with the academies, youdid something too that you know
you didn't toot your own hornabout, but you helped bring the
mental health part be longer forthose trainings so they're more
aware of how it works, whetherthey had a co-response model or
(20:20):
not.
And that's something I wanted totouch base, is because I don't
think the police officers didn'twant to know, they just didn't
know because it was what eighthours, I think.
When I remember sitting in themeetings and be like, it's eight
hours.
SPEAKER_01 (20:32):
Eight hours out of 26, 27 weeks.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (20:35):
And you changed that.
I just wanted also talk a littlebit about that and how that also
changed the way police officerssee our job.
SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
Yeah, and I, you know, it's still not long
enough.
I I don't think anybody wouldargue with that.
Um, but I also, yes, we wereinvolved in uh doubling uh the
curriculum time, uh, but alsothe focus of it.
And you know, when I I used toteach at the MBTA Academy many,
(21:02):
many years ago, and at that timeit was eight hours, and it, you
know, the curriculum that I hadhad been used before was really
about uh contained a lot ofmyths about people with mental
health conditions, and so wewere asked to be part of a team
that redeveloped that curriculumto think more about how we can
(21:26):
help uh de-escalate instead ofum assuming we're gonna need
force, assuming that um peoplewith a mental health condition
are more dangerous, whichthey're not, we know, then um
really thinking about what ourrole in this is and helping with
de-escalation and um further, II do believe that it
(21:49):
de-escalation, I know it it's ait's got it's bandied around a
lot, but in its true sense, youknow, I think that de-escalation
should be weaved uh throughoutthe entire curriculum and that
it's not a standalone topicbecause it shows up in all
police calls, the ability tode-escalate is there probably
(22:10):
80% of the time, whether it's amental health call or whether
it's a car accident andsomeone's very upset, um,
whether someone was arrested andnow they're very upset, you
know, it permeates the wholerole.
And being able to uh understandgiving time and space and
(22:31):
building rapport with people canactually prevent needing to use
force, can actually move theneedle and get people where we
want them to be.
So the curriculum is important.
Um, also, they're new recruits.
My experience of it when Itaught that was, you know, many
of them kind of were zoning outa little bit.
(22:52):
And I said, you know, youprobably don't think that this
is gonna impact you.
You probably think that you'regoing to be going to bank
robberies and uh car chases andum murders, right?
But you're working in, you know,in enter small town name,
chances are you're not going tobe doing a lot of that.
(23:13):
Um, so you might want to listenbecause you are gonna be doing a
lot of this, and they didn'treally even believe me.
They didn't really even thinkthat once that, you know, that
their first few calls may besomeone in a mental health
crisis or someone usingsubstances or someone whose kid
is missing, and they'recompletely hysterical, right,
and how to manage that.
(23:34):
So um I do think that there's auh the space for that in the
academy, but I think the theongoing uh advanced training
that we've been involved in,that I've been developing over
the last four years at WilliamJames College actually builds
upon the the experience thatthey have on the street.
(23:56):
So they in the academy theydon't know what they don't know,
they have no context for itusually, they um aren't really
even sure what their communityuh is going to be like to work
in.
So I feel that having them comeback after the academy, maybe a
year or two years out, and getinvolved in some more advanced
(24:16):
training, uh, they're much morereceptive to it.
They're like, you were right,we're doing more of the I mean,
six estimates are 60, 70 percentof police work has nothing to do
with policing.
SPEAKER_03 (24:28):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (24:28):
Um, but they are the default providers of behavioral
health services uh after hours,unfortunately.
SPEAKER_04 (24:35):
100%.
Yeah.
You know, I even um you know,recently I I I did feel like I
was cheating on you.
I did a lot of trainings forCITs.
SPEAKER_01 (24:44):
That's not cheating.
There's room for both.
I'm just kidding.
I'm just kidding.
Just wanted to make you laugh.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_04 (24:49):
But I you know, I think there's room for both, and
that's certainly something thathas changed in my thought
process in the last 10 years orso.
Yeah.
But doing that CIT training,they would bring in more
seasoned Right, right.
As well as the younger guys.
Yeah.
And it was fascinating to hearthese preconceived notion, even
for people who've been done thatin like 10, 15 years.
(25:12):
And we're giving an example ofschizophrenia at one point.
I had shared.
I'm like, look, if you're right,we're gonna prove them right.
So just get on the, you know,just get get on the gurney and
we'll we'll get you to thehospital.
And someone said, Well, didn'tyou just validate that they were
right?
I'm like, I didn't make anypromises.
And I said, That's the importantpart.
I didn't say I'm gonna get youoff.
(25:33):
But a lot of them are like, Oh,you can do that.
I'm like, Yeah, you if youchallenge the the the illusion,
you're you're done.
unknown (25:39):
Yes.
SPEAKER_04 (25:40):
And if you just feed into it a little bit without
making any promises, you'refine.
So that's the thin line that'sreally hard to explain for
mental health people, frankly,yeah, as well as law enforcement
people.
SPEAKER_01 (25:52):
Yeah, I mean, we're in, you know, we're you know, in
training as young clinicians, wewe have um, you know, a very
clear set of ethics andboundaries, and one of those is
you know, you don't lie to yourpatients, right?
And we and we shouldn't lie topeople, um, but also, and it
reminds me of one of the firstdays I was at the department,
(26:14):
somebody walked into the stationuh to report a crime, and they
were like, Okay, what's thecrime?
Well, it was theft, somebodystole my checkbook, um, and
they're writing checks.
Okay, all right, we'll get adetective down, so they get a
detective down.
I was in dispatch at the time,so I was hearing all this play
out, and it sounded very, youknow, routine type of call.
(26:36):
And the detective came down andhe said, Do you have any idea
who might be doing this?
And the individual was like,Well, yeah, it's Adolf Hitler.
And the officer said, Um, well,that can't be true.
Adolf Hitler died in a bunker,and and I'm like, Well, yes, and
and you know, you get it, right?
(26:58):
You you you want you get why umnot just law enforcement, lots
of people think that they cancorrect that.
Um, but but what's the what'sthe end goal, right?
Do you are you trying to beright?
Are you trying to prove themwrong?
That's not building rapport,right?
It's actually kind of um callingout something.
(27:18):
So uh even in moments like that,to your point, I recognize that
just to re reframe that um isvery powerful.
And it's like that you you don'tneed to, you know, there's no
um, you know, com winning thatargument with someone who's not
reality testing, right?
SPEAKER_04 (27:37):
Well, I want to wrap up by saying that William James
uh college has not only offereda lot of great trainings on the
subject, they now have uh partof it where you have created a
um, I don't know what to callit, program.
A center.
SPEAKER_01 (27:51):
A center for crisis response and behavioral health.
SPEAKER_04 (27:53):
Yep.
And I want to give you a littlechance to talk about it.
You want to stay for another 20minutes?
I know you're on a timeline, butwe would love to keep you down
for another 20 minutes.
That's fine.
Just finish off on the JDP slashco-response model.
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
Please like, subscribe, and follow this
podcast on your favoriteplatform.
A glowing review is alwayshelpful.
And as a reminder, this podcastis for informational,
educational, and entertainmentpurposes only.
If you're struggling with amental health or substance abuse
issue, please reach out to aprofessional counselor for
consultation.
If you are in a mental healthcrisis, call 988 for assistance.
(28:31):
This number is available in theUnited States and Canada.
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