July 19, 2022 • 60 mins
In this episode, I have a very animated and informative conversation with Susan Roggendorf. We discuss a variety of subjects, including heterosexual norms, LGBTQIA+ community, as well as first responders and her work with this population. We talk about our experiences in the ER, Susan explains how she has decided to challenge all the norms so that she can be herself. We also discuss the current political issues going on currently and how to be more hands on and can make a difference via social justice.
Susan Roggendorf is a Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor in Illinois and a Licensed Mental Health Counselor in Iowa. She's the LGBTQ+ owner of Coffelt Counseling Services in the Quad Cities. Susan works with folks living with anxiety in her LGBTQIA2s+ community. and with First Responders grappling with anxiety as well as other life issues. When not in her garden or busy annoying her adult kids, she's hosting and producing her own podcast, F*ck The Rules.
You can find her podcast here.
You can reach her practice here.
You can find her Instagram here.
Finally, you can visually see this interview here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Steve Bisson (00:01):
Hi and welcome to finding your way through
therapy. I am your host, SteveBisson. I'm an author and mental
health counselor. Are youcurious about therapy? Do you
feel there is a lot of mysteryabout there? Do you wonder what
your therapist is doing and why?
The goal of this podcast is tomake therapy and psychology
accessible to all by using reallanguage and straight to the
(00:22):
point discussions. This podcastwants to remind you to take care
of your mental health, just likeyou would your physical health.
therapy should not beintimidating. It should be a
great way to better help. I willdemystify what happens in
counseling, discuss topicsrelated to mental health and
discussions you can have whatyour thoughts I also want to
introduce psychology in everydaylife. As I feel most of our
(00:44):
lives are enmeshed inpsychology. I want to introduce
the subtle and not so subtle waypsychology plays a factor in our
lives. It will be my own mix ofthoughts as well as special
guests. So join me on thisdiscovery of therapy and
psychology. Hi, and welcome toepisode 58 of finding your way
through therapy. I am Steve B.
(01:07):
So if you haven't listenedepisode 57 yet, please do so
Stephanie Simpson was veryinteresting. talk a lot about
informed leadership, herexperience with therapy and art
therapy and I thought was agreat conversation. So please go
back and listen to that if youhaven't done so. But episode 58
will be with Susan Rogen doors.
And I hope I got her name right.
Susan is a Licensed ClinicalProfessional Counselor in
(01:29):
Illinois, and the licensedmental health counselor in Iowa.
She's the LGBTQ plus owner ofcofell counseling services in
the Quad City Susan works withfolks living with anxiety in the
community as well as firstresponders, when not in her
garden are busy annoying heradult kids she's hosting and
producing our own podcast fuckthe rules. I've been on that
(01:51):
podcast before. So I'm surethat's going to come up in our
conversation. But here is theinterview. Hi, and welcome to
episode 58 of finding your waythrough therapy. It's also
YouTube channel. That's going tobe the number eight episode
that's going to be on yourYouTube channel. And I'm very
happy to have Susan Roggendorf.
So Susan is someone I'veactually listened to her
(02:12):
podcast, fuck the rules. And Ireally have enjoyed it. And we
connected. She said I waslooking for a guest. She sent me
from the swearing therapiststhat she was going to be a
guest. I'm like, Oh, that'sgreat. So you should listen to
fuck the rules or something likethat. It's like I think you're
missing then I'm the sameperson. So I'm like, Ah, shit.
So Susan, someone I reallyenjoyed listening to I've
(02:33):
obviously follow her onInstagram and everything else.
And I will be or have been ontheir podcast will be will be by
debt. All right, great. Sohopefully I'll put that in the
show notes too. So you can golisten to my appearance in our
zoom issued infested bullshit.
That happened again today. So Ijust think the world's against
(02:56):
us is,
Susan Roggendorf (02:57):
like you said they're afraid and they should
be. We got some great shit.
Steve Bisson (03:01):
I think that that's why because we don't fuck
around. And they don't likethat.
Susan Roggendorf (03:05):
Exactly. And if more people did like we did
we I think we all have a lotbetter place than we are right
now. That's for sure. Well,maybe it's
Steve Bisson (03:13):
good, because now I feel like I know you because
we've talked a couple of timesnow. But it might be important
for my audience here and findingyour way through therapy to kind
of know you. So tell me a littlebit about yourself.
Susan Roggendorf (03:23):
Sure. My name is Susan Rabindra. I am a
Licensed Clinical ProfessionalCounselor in the state of
Illinois. I am in privatepractice now. But I started out
doing er work doing a crisisclinician through the crisis
stabilization can it's in theplus cities. And that taught me
a lot about the nature oftherapy, the nature of crisis,
(03:44):
the nature of emergency care. Ihave family and friends who were
just about in every area offirst responders that I can
think of I mean, whether that'sEMS paramedic, in the ER in the
hospital work, whether they'relaw enforcement, military, I've
been married to military, soit's just, I've pretty much had
(04:06):
a lifelong experience exposed tothat cohort that I actually
provide therapy for to. I'm alsoqueer, I came out when I was
4644, something like that. Iknew I was pretty lonely. It was
age seven just didn't have aword for it. I just knew I liked
girls as much as I like boys,then as a teenager bisexual was
the label that was thrown outthere. I went with that for a
(04:29):
long time. But then, in my 30s,late 30s, early 40s, I realized
I really didn't care about whatwe call the party favors their
bringing to the party. I justliked the person. So whatever
technical box you got, I don'treally give a shit. I just want
to know you as the person. Sothen I decided that the real
descriptor would be pansexual.
So, in case anybody's wonderingout there, it's always about
(04:52):
copper paths for me, okay, I'mjust gonna put it out there.
That means because that's thejoke, you know, so you'd like
pants. Yes, the copper bottomsare best you know, they're of
course more expensive. That'sthat's sort of where I am, I
graduated in 2013 with my degreeand got licensed, spent a long
(05:12):
time in the ER, working witheverybody from those that were
anxious and depressed to thosepersons who have made thought
about suicide to those whoactually attempted and
thankfully did not complete topersons that are were having
active psychosis either throughpsychological issues and or
substance use. So I've nothingsays you're you've arrived when
(05:38):
you put into basically aheadlock and there's being feces
thrown around. You know, that'snot the family gatherings I go
to that was.
Steve Bisson (05:51):
That's, that's a spent er special, right? That's
Susan Roggendorf (05:54):
right. So and I will say that, now that I am
practice, full time, privatepractice, I do miss my crew. And
I don't miss a lot of thebullshit that went along with
the work that we did there. ButI will say that my er crew, and
especially the overnights that Istarted out in for several
years, they were some of thebest people I've ever met. And
(06:15):
they were just as black heartedinto humor as I was. So it just,
it was a really good crew. Andthen just I finally got burnt to
a crisp, I couldn't take anymore of the stress, mainly
because of the bullshit that wassurrounding what we did. And you
and I have kind of talked in thepast about what that is, and
just decided that I need to gointo private practice. And
(06:39):
finally, I just decided thateven though everybody says, Oh,
you're gonna have to file forbankruptcy, you can't do private
practice on your own, said, Fuckit. And here I am. Well,
Steve Bisson (06:49):
I like that your career has been single, we have
parallel careers. I think wetalked about this before. And
for me having the fuck it'sabout whenever people say Who
gives a shit, I feel that forfrom you, and certainly
something that we related to. SoI think that's why people are
afraid because we're told to notdo certain things or like, I'll
do it twice. Just to fuck withyou.
Susan Roggendorf (07:09):
Yes, exactly.
Steve Bisson (07:12):
And somebody good things came out of that, because
I did just your quick intro.
Going into private practiceafter doing all that stuff. What
brought you to private practiceother than burnout from er work?
And by the way, it's smearingfeces with their names on the
wall. That's really my top storyfrom the
Susan Roggendorf (07:32):
Okay, well, you know, we each have a feces
story. We're just as interestingas mine. So, yeah, we'll have to
do some comparisons later.
Steve Bisson (07:40):
I've got jail stories, too. So I imagined
those, oh,
Susan Roggendorf (07:43):
well, you're gonna you're gonna tap me on
that because I have not donejail, any kind of jail work. I
won't, I won't have anything. Soyou'll win that that group of
story so but if we can comparethe work,
Steve Bisson (07:52):
we'll get on that because I got a couple of
doozies.
Susan Roggendorf (07:58):
Um, so it was the question again, I got lost
in the PC stories.
Steve Bisson (08:02):
So we we know a little bit about you're getting
burned out. But er, and we canalways share that with the
audience here who haven'tlistened to our podcast that I
did on yours. But I also thinkthat there must be other reasons
why you go into private practiceother than just being
Susan Roggendorf (08:16):
burned out?
Well, I think it's because it'snot that I didn't like the
patients I was working with. ButI also wasn't reaching that
group of persons, I really feltmost strongly needed the
support, and that is firstresponders, and law enforcement,
because there are those personsin law enforcement that aren't
part of first responder work,like jail, county, prisons,
(08:39):
things like that, as well ashospital staff, hospital staff
don't get the support either.
And having family and friendsand co workers in all of those
fields, I really want to be ableto fucking stump that stigma out
to say that just because youneed help, doesn't mean you're
fucking weak. If anything, itmeans that you have the courage
(09:02):
to say something isn't working,I need to talk to somebody who
knows what this can be like, orknows what I'm talking about.
And I don't have to educatethem. I could just go in and
say, This is the shit that'sgoing down and I am over it, I
can't do this anymore. And Iwant to, I want to be able to
break that stigma and say, youknow, get your answers into the
office, see somebody that canhelp you get to the next point
(09:25):
of getting this, if not takencare of at least managed
wellness so you can go back toyour life. And then the LGBTQ
plus community that I belong in,we've always needed that kind of
support. There are persons thatchoose not to work with that
group. And that's and that'stheir gig. You know, I'm not
gonna put them down. Everybodygoes into their own niche,
(09:47):
right, but I wanted to be thereto support persons to continue
the work that had started me onthe path of being able to be who
I was, and that came throughtherapy as well was someone who
was very formative was a part ofthe country Indeed, very
informative, very safe to bearound. And I wanted to be a
part of that kind of cohort oftherapists that could do that
for our community. So that'skind of why I got into private
(10:10):
practice, aside from theburnout.
Steve Bisson (10:12):
Okay. And I certainly hear a lot of
different things I want to askyou about, you said, your own
therapy, which is alwaysinteresting to me, because
finding your way through therapyis exactly that. I tell people
that being in therapy isactually a sign of strength, not
a weakness. What made you reachout to therapy would help the
most. And maybe I think theother part that I really find
interesting is, you know, I'm,Mr. privilege, I'm a white
(10:36):
heterosexual male. In thisworld, I'm getting older, so I'm
almost there to for that oldpart. But there is never going
to be a time where I will not bean ally, to our LGBTQ i A plus
community never will changethat. But I think that how do we
also help being had gettingheterosexuals on board so to
(10:58):
speak, I don't like the wholepride month thing, not because I
don't believe in pride. Ibelieve that pride is 12 months
a year. You know, if you'reattractive, I, when people tell
me that they're gay, I always golike, Great, I'm happy for you.
But to me, that's notconsequential unless it's
affected you negatively, and Iwill do the therapy about that.
But to me, it's like good foryou. I think there's so many
(11:19):
questions that come with that.
So how do we become an ally?
Number one, and number two, theother thing I would love to hear
is more about your experience intherapy and how it changed, did
it help you get out of thecloset, so to speak,
Susan Roggendorf (11:31):
okay, to speak to the first part, which is
becoming an ally, a lot of timesyou and I find that persons are
afraid of things they don'tknow. And that's hard to
believe, even in 2022 thatpeople don't know about what it
means to be gay. What it meansto be someone who might be now
non binary, right? What it meansto be a gender fluid. And what
(11:55):
does it mean to be sis which isthat gender you're assigned at
birth? I identify as sis female?
Well, I have no problem with thegirly, jiggly bits. They're part
of who I am. And that's just me.
Steve Bisson (12:06):
But if someone doesn't know what CES is, can
you explain that?
Susan Roggendorf (12:10):
CES is basically the gender of signed,
when you're born, it's not yoursex, it's you know, you're seen
as female. And I wish I couldremember what ces means right
now. And I can't come up withthe abdomen. And there is and
they can't Yeah, so menopausebrain right now it just right
through the head. But to saythat your your sis means that's
(12:32):
the gender you were assigned atbirth, because that's what was
recognized as one binary or theother, either male or female,
right. And as we have grown ashuman beings, we realize that
some persons internally do notmatch what they've been assigned
outside. And to be an ally, isto be educated and have been
(12:53):
taking, you know, workshops anddiving, diving deep into
coursework and things like that.
It means reading informationfrom reliable sources. There's
the Trevor Project that workswith teams, that is hugely
important because they providesupport for teens who are
feeling either caught inenvironments where they can't
(13:13):
express who they are, or they'vebeen victimized because of who
they are as teams, basicallytrying to save lives for teens
who are suicidal, because theycan't get that support as part
of our community, LGBTQ plus.
We've got all kinds of otherorganizations out there,
including like free mom hugs,that talks to parents who may
(13:34):
not be in the communitythemselves, but they have
children who are part of that.
There's also the free dad hugs,who are part of that
organization as well. You'll seepersons including myself out in
different events that thataround the LGBTQ plus community
wearing shirts that say free momhugs, or we have shirts, like
one of my other shirts that saysif your mother or father doesn't
(13:54):
want you, you're my child now,right? And I'm going to be that
support for you, I will help youget to that next step of helping
you have a healthy life. So youwant to get into things like
that locally, you might havestuff, we have the project of
the class cities here, thatprovides a lot of information.
There are now clinics like theLGBTQ plus clinic in Iowa City
through the University of IowaHospitals. So you just have to
(14:17):
take a look around locally,depending on where you're at, on
what organizations will have themost reliable information. If
it's a fringe group that is benttowards one specific view. I do
not recommend those obviously.
Because the bigger organizationsthat can recognize as reliable
won't be able to present you notjust the information about LGBTQ
(14:40):
plus community, but give you thehistory of it. And where are we
going? How can you supportpersons, whether you're in the
community or not? So to be anally and educate yourself?
That's number one. Number two, Ijust think it's about accepting
people for being a human being.
Right? I don't know how fuckingelse to say that. I mean, cuz I
don't I don't care if you're asis white male, what I care
(15:02):
about is, are you a good person,meaning you're not actively
setting out to harm personsbecause they don't look like you
sound like they were looked likeyou right? Now so what if they
don't love like you do as longas it is not harming anyone,
right? What's the big deal. Andthe Gay Agenda is just to be
human. There I said it, I gaveit away, my toaster away now
(15:23):
because it gave away the secret
Steve Bisson (15:28):
of finding your way through therapy exclusive,
please
Susan Roggendorf (15:31):
note, the loop my toaster,
Steve Bisson (15:37):
you're gonna lose that gift bag they also gave
you,
Susan Roggendorf (15:40):
oh, I didn't get a gift bag. I just wanted
the toaster. And that's what I
Steve Bisson (15:43):
see Bagley around here in Boston at least gives
you a gift bag with that too.
All right.
Susan Roggendorf (15:52):
I mean, that's the gay agenda. We just want to
be accepted as humans, we wantrights the same as everybody
else does. Right? So that's thefirst question of being an ally.
The second one is about my owntherapy. And I am not shy about
it. I'm not ashamed of it. I wasin my 20s. And I was having a
really difficult time being amom. Right? I came from trauma.
(16:15):
And I was having difficultiesbeing a mom, I was having
difficulties. In my thirdmarriage, I've been married
three times, because you know,I've got to fit that
heteronormative ideal of what itmeans to be a woman in our
society. And I started going toa couple therapists, I did not
click, and I talked about thisto family, friends, clients
patients, that the first personisn't necessarily going to be
(16:38):
the therapist for you. Becauseit's like anything else, it's
about meeting with someone thatyou're going to be comfortable
enough to be vulnerable and feelsafe to share things you've not
sent to anyone else. Forwhatever reason. And it was my
third try. When I finally foundLinda Jones, she was through the
Employee Assistance Program ofthe place that I was working at
(17:00):
before they were contractedthrough a local hospital,
Community Mental Health WellnessProgram. And it's because of
Lynda, that, over the course ofoften on of about 10 years,
there was a lot of shit for meto go through, we would start
with one thing work through it,I would need a fucking break.
(17:23):
And then something else wouldcome up and we'd work on that.
And it's because of her work andher ability to make me feel safe
and heard that I could saythings I hadn't been able to say
before, which included I fuckingdig chicks as much as I dig
dudes. So what does that makeme? Other than bisexual? And is
(17:46):
it is it allowed? And what doesthat mean to be mom? And how do
I model this for my kid? Or do Imodel this for my kid? And oh my
god, what is the fallout from myfamily? When they find out? Do I
say anything to my family? Itwas a lot of pulling things away
that had been layered on me asexpectations and the idealized
perception of who Susan was thatI accepted as my own, that I had
(18:09):
to pull that shit off of me andsee me for who I really was for
myself. Right? And I certainlywasn't the squarey don't give a
shit attitude back then than Iam now. That's been a work in
progress for like 2530 years. Soit was the best thing I've ever
fucking done other than havingmy kids. So they don't give
Steve Bisson (18:29):
a shit attitude is more like 20 to 30 years old
now.
Susan Roggendorf (18:33):
It's more like 15 years old. I mean, I mean to
really live that I don't give afuck anymore. That's about 15
years. Okay, and especially inthe last five, where I know I'm
over 50 Fuck you. I'm notdealing with for your your kick
ideas of how things are supposedto be. No, no, I'm not doing
(18:53):
that I have. I have so muchthing I have so many things to
do in such a short time before Itake the big old dirt nap, suck
your shit. I'm not I'm notdealing with you. I'm going to
deal with my own so I can figureout how I can achieve the things
I want to do before I grew upthat I got shit to do get out of
my way.
Steve Bisson (19:09):
And you bet you've had to repress where you were
for so long, too. So there's alot of shit that catch up if you
ask me. Absolutely. But one ofthe things that you said that I
really push on this podcastregularly and I'm gonna say just
what you said and I reallyappreciate what you said is that
it you know, took about threedifferent tries before finding
the right therapist. And I tellpeople like it's not CBT it's
(19:31):
not DBT it's not whateverfucking type of therapy you
think it is. It's thetherapeutic alliance that works.
And there's nothing else. Andtherapy is also something that's
messy. I think that a lot ofpeople don't understand. And
also you're trained in firstresponders like both of us were
kind of done for a long time.
That doesn't mean I have afucking magic wand in the back
(19:53):
of my fucking truck.
Susan Roggendorf (19:57):
Oh yeah, wouldn't be nice witness.
Steve Bisson (19:59):
Oh, look First responders. Let me get the right
magic.
Susan Roggendorf (20:04):
Just a minute, I've got this box.
Steve Bisson (20:07):
And I think that that's the stuff that I really
appreciate what you said, youwent back and forth with I can't
remember her name that Linda wasa great therapist. Fantastic.
How do you communicate that withyour clients today because I,
especially first responders, Ilove my first responders. That's
one of my passions. But a lot ofthem are looking for the magic
one sometimes. And I know Idon't carry it. And if there was
(20:30):
one that was taught to me at mycollege, when I was doing this
training, I was fucking sickthat day or something?
Susan Roggendorf (20:38):
Well, I don't think that any of us get the
magic wand during our training,because somebody somewhere has
to have had it. And there's onething that is therapists we'd
like to do is let other peopleknow this shit works. Try this,
right. So nobody has that magicwand. Basically, when I tell my
clients, especially my firstresponders, who I love working
with them, and as well ashospital persons, and other law
(21:00):
enforcement, is that unlike whatyou see in fucking media, which
just perpetuates the stereotypeof this aha moment, and
everything's blissful, and theygo off into center, and
everything's great, that's a lotof shit, right? In my therapy,
things got uncomfortable.
Sometimes they were so painful,I would stand up in the middle
(21:21):
of search and tell my therapist,go Buck yourself and walk out
and come back the next week,right? Because I was processing
all that. And we found a betterway for me to be able to handle
those horrible feelings. Otherthan saying Fuck you, and
walking out, sometimes it wasjust fuck you. And she'd give me
10 minutes to settle down orwhatever. And then we continue.
But I tell my clients,especially my first responders,
(21:42):
at all that you can tell me tofuck off, I'm not gonna take it
personally, that's a response tome that says we're getting close
to something, right. And that ifyou need space, I will give you
that space. And we may notpursue it for the rest of the
session, but we will revisit itin a future session. And it's
frustrating, it's so fuckingfrustrating because they have so
(22:04):
much to do. And sometimesthey're coming in at the
direction of their department ortheir manager or their
supervisor, whatever. Now, I donot have the training to do for
evaluation. For dutyevaluations, I just don't do
that. I don't think it's my jobto do that. And I leave it to
other persons to pick up thatduty. So that's one thing that
helps ease some of the tensionwhen my first responders come in
(22:27):
knowing that I am not doing afit for duty, which is a
different set of evaluations.
Mine is just talking about whatthe fuck is going on? Why is
this not working for youanymore? What happens? And what
is it that's getting in yourway, and it's going to take a
little bit of time, it's goingto get maybe some really ugly
awful feelings at times, but I'mhere, I'm sure shit not going to
(22:50):
flinch. Because believe me, I'vebeen through a lot of shit. But
I'm here to to keep this spaceavailable so they can explore
what the fuck is going on.
Steve Bisson (23:00):
And I think you've said a lot of good things in
regards to for me when you're intherapy, I have a board in my
office, then I think I've sharedthis on my podcast, we'll share
it again, because it's a goodstory. There's a FAQ board on my
wall. And every time someonetells me to fuck off, I go check
off the board. If insurancecompanies are listening, fu
stands for follow up just forthe record. But for the rest of
(23:23):
you, it leaves pluck off and Itell people that's the ultimate
compliment you can give me and Itell them that if you trust me
and you tell me to fuck off,that means I got you. And to me,
that's not a you need fiveminutes to go to the bathroom,
calm yourself, whatever, I don'tcare, we'll do that. But to me,
it's the ultimate complimentbecause that is not a detriment
(23:45):
to our relationship. In fact, ithelps the relationship. I don't
know what you think about that,but,
Susan Roggendorf (23:50):
but it shows trust. It shows that there is a
point that you've gotten to anarea that is so dark and ugly
and wiggly, and it's just shit.
And you've been able to ignoreit, ignore it, ignore it. Now
it's in the middle of the room,and you have trusted me enough
to put it in the middle of theroom. Now, you recognize it for
what it is you tell me to gofuck off. Okay, okay, well put
(24:11):
the shit in the box if you wantto deal with it later in the
session, right? If not, we willaddress it and then in a future
session. I'm cool with that. Butfor you to tell me to fuck off
to tell me to go fuck yourselfor whatever the fuck phrase of
your choice is. It's a trustthing. I know that you've
trusted me enough to feel thatyou can say exactly how you're
(24:32):
feeling at that moment and it'snot pre rehearsed from when you
just came in through the door.
Steve Bisson (24:40):
I always like the fact that some of my clients are
so used to it. They're like, Oh,get ready to go put a checkmark
on your board.
Susan Roggendorf (24:48):
I think I might have board envy I may have
to go do that.
Steve Bisson (24:51):
As I like that because it's literally I have
like three or four clients andliterally go fucking board on
yours is gonna get anothercheckmark here. Like that's
great. But they created so muchtrust and openness to using that
language and all that, becausewhat are the other things that I
kind of wanted to? I wasthinking about it while we were
saying that a lot of people areafraid of that language. And I
(25:11):
think that first responders inparticular, that's the language
sometimes they can use in orderto express very difficult stuff.
I certainly see that also in ER,people, I see that in last
responders with people who workthe medical examiner's and
forensic people, I will neverI'll never forget my court
people either. But do you feelthat you know that that's part
(25:33):
of what we need to be more opento and let people have that
language and make it comfortablefor them?
Susan Roggendorf (25:40):
Absolutely, because I think part of that
issue, and I'm a language nerdabout how language develops and
how we use it to expressourselves. And that was one of
my studies in my undergrad. Andthe word McHugh is a very
aggressive term. And I mean,it's something that for some
people, it puts them on thedefensive, they don't want to do
(26:00):
conflict, but if you come atthem with a fuck you, that's
usually a sign that shits gonnago down, right. And in those
occupations, where shit goesdown all the time, that's going
to be part of the lexicon. Now,not everybody in those careers,
has that extensive of swearlanguage, like what we do. Some,
(26:22):
some of them feel perfectlyadequate, using other terms. And
that's funny. But I don't thinkyou should be seen as something
horrible and taboo, if that'swhat it takes to help you
express how you're trulyfeeling. And that can be
everything from excitement, tosexiness to anger, by all means
(26:43):
use it. Right, I don't see aproblem, as long as there's an
opportunity to explore them alittle bit to find out what that
fucky really means. If you don'tknow what it means being able to
ask for clarification,
Steve Bisson (26:55):
right. And I think that sometimes what one of the
first responders I've workedwith, has said to me, sometimes
there's no word fuck you fitsperfectly, when you don't even
know how to get that word out.
It might be 12 words, and it'stoo complicated to get all all
of that out. So fuck you worksreally well, or fuck off, or
whatever, I tell people thatit's always important to find a
way to express it no matter howit is. Because if you're going
(27:16):
to be so hung up on the word,then you're probably disturbing
the people that's in front ofyou.
Susan Roggendorf (27:25):
And there are some people that just don't feel
comfortable with it, Steve, andthat's okay. You know, if they
prefer to have an environmentwhere that's not used, they will
attract a certain clientele thatfeel more comfortable with that,
that therapist, and that's fine.
You know, and I've said beforethat, if my, if, as a therapist,
I have a client coming in, andthey don't feel comfortable
swearing, that's cool. I willdump it down. And we will just
(27:47):
talk and that's fine. Right?
I've also had persons who comein the first words out of their
mouth is you're not going tofucking get to me. Okay? I'm not
sure what you mean by that. Youshowed up and you walked in the
door, and he sat in my chair. Somaybe we should talk about why
you're here? Not sure what'sgoing on?
Steve Bisson (28:08):
You're not gonna get me. Okay. What am I supposed
to say to that?
Susan Roggendorf (28:14):
Yeah, he showed up. Let's talk about
that. Right. I don't think thelanguage should be a barrier, I
think it should be utilized in away that makes the therapist
feel comfortable to allow theclients to feel comfortable, if
that means you swear, great. Ifit means you don't suffer,
fantastic, if it means that youhave to use music, to help get
things across perfect. If itmeans you have to use artwork to
(28:35):
help express emotions to that'sperfect. The medium of art is
there to help us tell stories,and that that has to happen in
session to then so be it.
Steve Bisson (28:45):
And I think that you bring up another point is
that art shows up in differentforms. I had a guest a few
episodes ago. And the bestcompliment She said she's a
singer and is also a coach andand I said I can't sing I don't
have a voice I can't sing she'slike, but yet you're on podcasts
on a 45 at that point. So yourvoice is still a gift. And your
(29:07):
the way you express yourself isprobably unique. And that's what
people want to hear. And so Ithink that that's another thing
that I've used since then withmy clients saying, This is how
you express yourself and maybeyou know, that may not be
everyone's cup of tea. In fact,I hope you're not everyone's cup
of tea. But it might also be thewhat someone needed to hear at
the right time. And remindmyself of that, too.
Susan Roggendorf (29:31):
I think that's a very apt phrase. I mean, it's
your voice has meaning forsomeone somewhere, not for
everybody. And that's okay,because I'm not sure I would
want to be accepted by everyone,whatever that term means, I
mean, general populace orwhatever. I just want to make
sure that the persons that I'mreaching understand I'm someone
(29:52):
that they can talk to and if I'mnot the therapist for them, I
will make sure I get themresources so they can find the
most appropriate person
Steve Bisson (30:00):
A little bit of the crisis that we have overall
in this country is the lack oftherapists. And I don't know if
you're finding that in the QuadCities in in your area, but I
know for our area's beendifficult. How do we get more
people in the profession numberone or number two? How do we get
more people to engage moreclients? I mean, it's very
(30:20):
difficult. We also have burnout,we also have issues so
Susan Roggendorf (30:24):
well, I think the last response to the first
which is, we're so burned out,we are so overloaded. That's why
it's hard to find persons tocome into the field because they
hear about this and think, Well,shit, I don't want to go into
something that by 10 years thatI am done with it, I'm moving on
to another career. Right. Theother portion of it is fucking
insurance companies. Oh, my God,oh, my God, I knew you'd get me
(30:47):
there. See, Jenna's Oh, myhealth, I just,
Steve Bisson (30:51):
I opened up on your podcast, it's your turn.
You don't put it on the board.
In the studio, but I will getone for the studio.
Susan Roggendorf (31:07):
It's just that insurance companies started down
as a good idea. And now it'sjust fucked up medical care,
it's fucked up a lot of thingsthat has to do with the care and
health of human beings in ourcountry. You have companies that
one of my guests, Reverend, weshould talk about where you
order a steak and potato andit's appropriate to give you a
(31:28):
fucking peanut butter and jellysandwich, because that's what
the insurance company saysthat's the only thing you
deserve. Fuck you. Correct. Ihave clients that people talk
about going into privatepractice just for cash only now
for some persons that workswherever their market is,
whatever their niche is, formost of us, we can't do that. In
my area, people are heavily inshort here, the employers here,
(31:51):
right to not take insurancereally limits that population
that I have found, I can't doand make a living because you
know, factor likes or tacos, andI like a roof over my head. So
I'm going to I'm going to acceptit some insurance is not
dependent on all of them. Right?
And so when you have somebodywho's a client that pays for
their insurance, they want thosebenefits. But the problem is
(32:11):
with insurance companies, peoplethink, Oh, you pay my insurance
company pays you $145 An hour,if that's your rate for 45
minutes. No, that's what I wouldbill, if you were cash, that's
what would be appropriate tocover costs of overhead rent and
everything else, I have to docontinuing education, keep my
license and all that other goodstuff and eat my tacos. However,
(32:32):
if you're going to be patientwith an insurance company,
they'll say, we'll give you $90For this session, maybe,
depending on the plan of theclient, they may actually only
give you $45. And the clientwon't have a copay. So that's
it, you've gone from 145, downto $45. And you're supposed to
figure out how to make a livingfrom that. That is what keeps a
(32:54):
lot of people out of going intoour field of mental health.
Because not only do you have tofigure out how you're going to
make ends meet by not gettingthe amount that you set in order
to have a decent living, I'mtalking to you know, I'm sure
there are people out there thatmake loads more money than I do,
(33:14):
but not very many, not withoutsidestream income. And how do
you pay for other things thatyou're not going to get in being
employed by someone else, like Ihave to pay for my own
insurance. And around hereyou're looking at for single
person, four to $500 a month,and you have a deductible of
between six and $8,000 for asingle person. So that also gets
(33:34):
in the way. So insurancecompanies once again, stuck in
you. So all of those things arewhat prevent a lot of people
from going into privatepractice. And then you get old
fucks like me to go, you knowwhat, how much worse can it be I
have been poor, I have been onfood stamps, I have worked three
jobs to make ends meet. How muchmore fucking difficult could
(33:58):
this be. And it's something thatI don't want to spend whatever
time left to have, to meburdened with all the paperwork
and bullshit of working in aninstitution or an organization
for mental health. When I can gointo private practice. I do have
to do my paperwork. But it'snificantly less than what I had
(34:19):
to do in a community healthorganization. I can spend the
majority of my time actuallydoing therapy with my clients,
right? I get to see them on aregular basis. And I watched
them progress as they workthrough the therapy. That to me
is worth the pain and effort oftrying to figure out how to make
ends meet as a therapist inprivate practice. battling with
(34:41):
insurance companies battlingwith other shit that's coming
down and making sure my clientsare taken care of.
Steve Bisson (34:50):
Right. And I think that that's your you hit a lot
of things right like the nail onthe head. I mean, I think that's
charging four or $500 Whenyou're in New York City for out
of pocket is not unheard of, orLA or Chicago and parts of
Chicago's anyway. But you gointo rural Iowa or even for us,
I mean, I'm in I'm inMassachusetts, you go from
(35:11):
Boston to Central Mass, it's adifferent story. And I think
that that's the other part thatthe insurance companies have
preyed upon us in regards to alot of this stuff. So I embrace
that completely. Yeah, let meshift gears a little bit so that
you don't tell me to fuck offtoo often. Because I can go on
for insurance companies. But Ithink I went through today a
(35:34):
very good ranting way in yourpodcast, so please go listen to
that. But I want to go back to alittle bit of like, this is
being recorded in June. We'regoing to be released in July.
Recently, we had roe overturned.
Yep. And there's so manyfeelings that I have in regards
to that. But more importantly, Igotta go back to a little bit of
(35:55):
the LGBTQ community, becausewhen you look at what the
Justice Chief Justice ClarenceThomas said, in regards to
looking at to repel otherthings, including gay marriage,
how it is, I know that you can'tspeak for everyone in the LGBTQ
community. I'm not that stupid.
But how is that affectingdifferent people in the
(36:16):
community? Because to me, it'sjust like, We're fucking turning
the clocks back. So much on somany levels. And it's
frustrating, and I'm very sad,actually. But I wanted to know,
if you had any indication howit's affecting a lot of
different people.
Susan Roggendorf (36:32):
I am fucking furious at this. And it's not
enough to have to work forsocial justice continually in
2022 for my friends and familyfor persons of color and come
from marginalized communities.
But now we've got this, which isbullshit, because no sooner was
Roe v. Wade overturned, thenThomas comes out, says, oh, and
we're going to talk about samesex marriage. And we're going to
(36:54):
talk about contraceptives. Andwe're also going to talk about
privacy in the bedroom. Right?
So all the suppose it straightwhite persons that are out there
thinking this can't come for me?
Guess what, if you're kinky inthe bedroom, they're gonna find
out and it's not gonna go wellfor you either. This doesn't
stop with just Roe v. Wade. Andwith the LGBTQ plus community,
the problem is, we just, we justgot some of the basic human
(37:19):
rights everybody else was ableto enjoy. Now we're looking at
the possibility having it takenaway again, what the fuck this
is, What country did I go, Ijust, you know, there are
countries around the world, thatdo not have the benefits that we
do living in the United Statesthat are lightyears ahead of us
in terms of human rights, andtreating people like human
(37:43):
beings. And of course, there arethose in our communities, LGBTQ
plus, that are worried andscared and afraid. I also work
with trans individuals. And Isupport trans persons and trans
rights. I belong to anorganization that our death
threats have just quadrupled,right? Because of the Roe v.
(38:04):
Wade overturned, as like, fuckwere you parasites that suddenly
now it's okay to you know,suddenly come out of the
woodwork and attack is nothinghas changed other than this
overturn. And we're gonna fighton that too, right? But now we
have to be concerned, even moreso than normal about physical
safety of those of us in thecommunity. That's always been a
(38:27):
concern. There's never not beena fucking concern about somebody
coming to beat the shit out ofus or kill us because we aren't
like them. Right? Now. It's evenmore so. Now I'm really
concerned for my clients, myfamily and friends who are part
of our community.
Steve Bisson (38:43):
The fact that we're now going into private
life of people and to me thatthat includes abortion that
includes whatever sex you decideto have I really like in a
meaningless in the most lovingway, I just don't care in the
way that people do. Whateverconsenting adults, I don't care.
I just
Susan Roggendorf (39:01):
do whatever it is you do. But you know what?
Guess what, that's the greatthing about being a mature
adult, is that you can saythat's just not for me, and then
your fucking mind your ownbusiness, right? Oh, there.
That's a concept a lot of peoplethat most of the country are
fine with. That's why thisoverturn is so stupid. Most of
(39:23):
the country does not want thisfrom everything I'm reading in
reliable news sources, sayingthe percentage anywhere from 68
to 74% of the country think thisis stupid, because they want to
just mind their own business andlive their own lives.
Steve Bisson (39:37):
Right? Well, they think that that's what logic
dictates right? Unfortunately,we lost logic a long time ago.
Unfortunately, when we're tryingto regulate people's vaginas are
oh you you don't feel the genderthat you're assigned to and you
want to change will decide thatthat's not right or wrong, who
and again, from the bottom of myheart and mean this in a caring
(39:59):
way. don't give a fuck. Yeah,hopefully it comes off as what I
hope it's not like I don't care,like people's lives or people's
lives. And I think I hatefucking saying this. I do work
with people from the LGBTQcommunity, I always feel like
it's one of those things like,Oh, I have a white black friend,
I hate that shit. But a lot ofthem have been scared since the
(40:22):
leak. And I can feel it fromthat community, in a general
sense, getting worse in the lastweek or so how do we work as
allies for everyone because Iknow I want to be your ally, I
want to be everyone's ally,because I truly don't see where
this country is going to makeany sense of this, because it's
(40:42):
not an abortion is not mybusiness, people's sexual,
whatever they decide in life,it's their choice. If they don't
feel their gender, again, that'stheir choice. And there's a lot
of complexities that go withthat. And I'm not trying to
minimize them. But I just don't,that's not for me to decide.
That's not for me to control.
How do we get to a point wherewe can educate people around?
Susan Roggendorf (41:03):
Well, like I said earlier, which is go to
those organizations that workwith those persons that support
those persons? Mainly, is itabout? Do you want to put first
of all, where your money whereyour mouth is, if you have the
funds available to do so donateto those organizations that are
supporting the groups that arebeing targeted? Right, you know,
(41:23):
the NAACP, I have watched them,and I have followed them, and I
have donated monies to them.
Because again, failing friendswho are persons of color in
marginalized communities, I wantthem to continue having their
rights, even though they'rejeopardized all the fucking
time. Planned Parenthood, again,if there's another organization
that's really good to getinformation from and donate to
(41:43):
or be part of their events andprotests. The other thing is, if
people have been hanging backfor whatever reason, I don't
know. And I'm not going tocriticize because I don't know
the situation. But get involvedwith the political system, for
God's sakes, right. starteducating yourself about who
those public representativesare, that are supposed to be
supportive of your groups andyour member, your member of
(42:07):
society, just being a humanbeing making sure they're human
rights, making sure there's goodhealth care, because guess what,
Roe v Wade isn't going to stopat just the abortion issue. It's
not going to stop atcontraceptives and same sex
marriage and privacy in thebedroom. Pretty soon, they'll
start degrading workers rights.
(42:28):
Right? Unions were alwaysaround, folks. And there are a
lot of things on the books nowthat protect workers, there's
going to be issues with women'srights in that pertain to
anything else, I mean, am Igoing to allow be allowed to
maintain my own business, right,make a living for myself, have
voting rights, everything isopen now to be targeted. And we
(42:50):
have to find ways to safeguardwhat rights we still have and
get those rights back that we'vejust lost. The first thing to
do, again, is go to thoseorganizations that support those
communities you want to be anally with if you're not part of
it. Secondly, start educatingyourself in the political system
of who's a representative thatmirrors the interest and the
rights that you want to haveprotected. Right. It's easier
(43:14):
now than ever. I mean, for fucksake, I'm 55. I remember used to
have to go to the library to getthe books, which, by the way,
love the library, I'm notdenigrating them at all. But
you'd have to go to the library,you'd have to go someplace to
get the information you'd haveto write or make the call. Now,
it's a matter of clicking on theinternet, finding that
representatives page or Congressperson's page, reading about the
(43:36):
things that they voted on whythey voted on it, you can text
you can email, you can call youcan still write letters, those
take a little bit longer, right.
There's still ways to connectwith those representatives that
are supposed to be theresupporting you. So get involved
with that.
Steve Bisson (43:51):
I think that's a great idea. And certainly with
elections coming up in Novemberfor different people. I think
that we need to send a strongmessage in regards to all that.
Absolutely. So I'm not exactlysure what's going to happen
next, but in a good
Susan Roggendorf (44:08):
No, no, no, I don't expect anything but good.
People keep bringing up MargaretAtwood's Handmaid's Tale. I know
it's a series on Hulu. But Iread the book when it came out
originally made. He's scared thebejesus out of me, because it's
talking about the very thingswe're living through. Well,
funnily enough, Margaret Atwoodhas said this in multiple
interviews since the book cameout. She based that book on real
(44:30):
life, historical and currentevents at that time, about how
rights were taken away becausethere was a certain sector
Christian sect that decided thattheir way was the only way and
then we had the Republicanelites. The problem is people
think it's just a work offiction. It's fictionalized
history, meaning that she hasbrought all this in and at the
time, there was still that shithappening in other countries,
(44:52):
right women and minorities, buta lot of people don't understand
is that what's different betweenthe book and the series? The
book? No Buddy, unless you'rewhite, and male, were allowed to
have anything to do with anykind of job or position of
power. In the RepublicanGillean, the series was a little
more open, they tried tomodernize and a little bit more
(45:13):
than what the book had. Sohere's the thing, folks, this
has happened before it canhappen again, we have to get off
their asses and start being moreactive and proactive.
Steve Bisson (45:25):
And I think that what you said earlier, I come
back to something you said, youknow, when you were still young
and trying to beheteronormative. We're going
back to that, and again, this isjust fucked up that we're going
back to the 70s. In the 60s, inthe mentality of what you need
is a boy and a girl. Two and ahalf kids, that SUV and the
(45:47):
white picket fence that weregoing back to that shit. And to
me, that's just the other partthat we need to fight
continuously because I stillhave women who have been dating
for a few years now. Somebody'slike, I don't want any kids. And
I'm like, Okay, you're not upsetand like, it's your choice, but
do I care? And like, do youreally you don't think more or
(46:08):
less? No, I don't give a shit.
And in a good way, you don'tneed to fall in everybody else's
box. But there's, there's a fearfor me that I'm gonna have
become like polygamist, so I canmarry as many gay guys as I can,
so I can bring them to Canadayou and your tribe, okay. It's
(46:29):
just weird. But I had thatconversation with Mike place,
he's like, you're gonna have tolike become a polygamist. So you
can bring us all up to the trainon the train. And I'm like,
Damn, I'm gonna have to have therailroad up the candidate again.
Susan Roggendorf (46:47):
Maybe it may well be. But here's the here's
the thing about theheteronormative thing. You can
be hetero. But why does it haveto be the norm for everyone, if
you are hetero, if that's howyou identify, go, powers be with
you. As long as you're livingthe best life you can and you're
not hurting yourself or anybodyelse. Again, as you said, I mean
(47:09):
this in all sincerity, I reallydon't give a shit good. Because
I'm in a mature adult, where Ihave my own things to do here.
And I'm distracted with dealingwith my kids and making sure I'm
annoying them on a regularbasis, taking care of my garden,
taking care of my clients. Soyou go do who you want to do
however you want to do betweenyou, as long as it's consenting.
(47:30):
Have at it. I don't care. Andthat's what I'm saying is we're
not against being hetero, we'reagainst not being treated like
human beings with basic rights.
Steve Bisson (47:39):
I've never met someone who happens to be in the
LGBTQ i A plus community eversay, You know what, we don't
like you because you'reheterosexual. They don't give a
shit. And I'm like, yeah, don'ttake this the wrong way. I still
don't give a shit about whateveryou do in your private life.
It's fine with me, what can I doto support you? That's more what
(48:00):
we need to do. Absolutely. Butyeah, I think that roe being
overturned is just gonna open acan of worms that I just am
afraid is gonna get worse.
Susan Roggendorf (48:11):
Guess what, Canada has been smashed on the
fucking highway dude, because 13states immediately had trigger
laws that said that you're notallowed to have an abortion now,
immediately, right? Fuckingimmediately, we've got other
states that are considering bansor restrictions that have been
sitting off to the side for sometime now, because there had not
been any kind of support for it,that are now going to suddenly
(48:33):
come on stage to be consideredagain, you've only got a handful
of states, Southwest and West inthe United States that it's
still legal to have an abortion.
Steve Bisson (48:42):
I mean, the northeast, we're very lucky in
that way. And I'm not gonna
Susan Roggendorf (48:47):
well, before before Roe v. Wade in case it
came down in the courts, and itbecame a federal protected right
46 states out of the Union hadhad illegal abortions 36 Were
only one more state than thenthat still allows legal
abortion.
Steve Bisson (49:06):
Yeah, they're talking about 2020 Fucking 22.
How that has come about. I mean,there's, there's, I don't know
how we can always this is goingto be something that pissed off
people. And I'm fine with
Susan Roggendorf (49:18):
that. Oh, honey, we have pissed off people
from the moment you open yourmouth. And so when I
Steve Bisson (49:22):
go back to the speech, I think it's from the
newsroom. And he talks aboutAmerica not being the best
country in the world. maternaldeath is one of the worst
countries. There's somecountries who are less quote
developed that have betternumbers than we do. And then
we're looking at women's rightsand we're gonna be down there
again, too. And we look at ourgay rights. How can we ever say
(49:47):
that this country is the bestcountry in the world because the
opportunity is only for certainpeople.
Susan Roggendorf (49:54):
I know exactly. I'll get in trouble
Steve Bisson (49:55):
for saying that.
But,
Susan Roggendorf (49:56):
but you know what, this also opens up the
conversation about how to Westart putting term limits on the
Supreme Court. These people areappointed for life. And there's
only nine of them. And how cannine persons have a say over the
majority of the country likethis? Because we've allowed it
to happen. It's it was builtthat way. And we've never had we
never had the opportunity ormaybe the motivation to look at
(50:20):
things need to change in thatdirection.
Steve Bisson (50:22):
And maybe perhaps also looking at term limits for
Senators and Representatives.
Fuck yes.
Susan Roggendorf (50:27):
I mean, that's been something I have been on
board with since oh my god in my20s because I thought it was
ludicrous. You can be elected adnauseam. What? If you get enough
people that pay you enough moneyto get you into the right
elections? Or you can redrawyour fucking districts? Of
course, you're always gonna bein power. What? Welcome to the
Middle Ages. I guess you get tohave your fiefdoms.
Steve Bisson (50:48):
Yeah, I can't remember what that the name of
it was when you just redistrictall the time. But it was. It's
based on a case inMassachusetts, no less. I can't
remember the name of it. But howabout we switch? We we kind of
like, go back to something thatmeans a lot to me, which is your
podcast. I've listened like, youknow, people say this on their
podcasts and all that. But I Idon't say things. I don't mean,
(51:11):
I listen to your podcasts everysingle time. Can you tell us
more about your podcasts?
Susan Roggendorf (51:16):
Faster? How much time you might be
Steve Bisson (51:18):
allowed. Go for a walk, go get my coffee.
Susan Roggendorf (51:21):
Go get that board. go to Home Depot. Get
that for it.
Steve Bisson (51:26):
I can't leave the house though. COVID.
Susan Roggendorf (51:29):
Damage, Steve.
call yourself an ally. Come on,man. Damn it. My podcast that
came about because I was a gueston a couple podcasts. And they
allowed me just to be myself.
And I thought that's a lot offun. And I, I never, ever get to
(51:49):
this point in my life, because Ireally felt I didn't have much
to say or put out there. Right.
So then one day, it was abouttrans rights day, that that was
an innocent day compared towhere we are now. But I wanted
to put my voice out therebecause a person's I care about
people I've worked with that. Iwant to make sure that they know
that I am there. And I want tocontinue working to make sure
(52:11):
that they have basic humanrights. And they put out an
Instagram reel. And I felt gooddoing that. And some of the
responses I got I got I got somehate mail, whatever, turned it
over to the right authorities.
Like fuck you I've lived I'velived through trauma, who the
fuck are you. And that's what Ido with all of my hate emails, I
turn it over to authorities likeit, whatever. But the fact that
(52:35):
persons found something in itthat gave them hope, or made
them feel a little moreunderstood or felt like there
was one more voice saying, Thishas to change, and I'm going to
be there to continue helpingfind a way to change it. Because
I'm not trans doesn't mean thatI don't believe in basic human
rights for everybody. So that'swhat started the podcast because
(52:56):
Meg Kelly on her podcast, mentalhealth status. It was about
saying, fuck your rules, becauseI was so burnt out, and I just
had had enough. And it's like,why is this rule because it's
always been rolled, fuck yourrules. And then I thought that's
gonna be my podcast, Doctorrules, because that's what I've
done for the last 30 years isthat I've broken out of all
(53:18):
those expectations, you know,and like I said, I'm not an
anarchist. I like having afunded police department that
protects property and persons.
Could there be improvements?
Absolutely. For everybody inthat regard. Right, right. But I
also like my roads beingrepaired. I like municipalities,
I like my water and myelectricity. And I like the
(53:39):
things that keep me safe. And Ilike environmental protections
being put into place because Ilike clean air and fresh water.
And I like being able to havethe opportunity to support
persons who want to go to eitherpublic or private education. I
mean, I like all those things.
But there are certain rules andtraditions that are sorry, cake,
and we're just doing it becausewe've always done it. Nobody's
(54:00):
examined it before, right. Andthere were persons I really
admired and respected thataren't doing the same old thing
according to whatever rule or orlaw or tradition or whatever.
And said, Fuck the rules. I'mgoing to do it this way. And
yeah, they may have stumbleddemain have had a hard time but
they're getting someplace andthey're happier, and they're
(54:21):
healthier for it. That's why Iwanted to start my podcast. And
that's, I'm in season two nowand I'm just about ready to
start dropping Season Two onJuly 12. But I am so lucky that
there are so many persons likeyourself that I hear your
podcast, I'm like Fuck yeah.
That's that's what we need to betalking about, which is why I
(54:42):
wanted to use one of my guestsbecause I like you. I listened
to your podcast and I find outinformation from you and your
guests that you have, which arephenomenal. And I just want to
make sure there's moreinformation for persons who are
going outside of the expectationthat's been layered on them. I
talked about that before I hadto peel that off of me because
they've been put on me byothers, right? I want people to
(55:03):
have that opportunity to to sayno, I gotta I gotta get this off
of me because that's not reallywho I am. This is who I feel.
And if you get that from mypodcast, and either from me or
from my guests that I have onand it resonates with you, and
you find a resource that allowsyou to continue to grow as a
human being so that you feelbetter and and your life feels
healthier to you. So be it.
Steve Bisson (55:24):
Well, I like your explanation I will share with
you my favorite podcast that youdid was with a former police
officer who became a works withthe mental health community. No,
Grayson, yes. I mean, names arenot friends, you obviously you
obviously saw that right awaywhen we started recording this.
But really, it was so nice tolisten to someone who has been
(55:47):
there done that and looking atit in a different light. And to
me whenever I listened to yourpodcast, I think you had your
want to say your son in law
Susan Roggendorf (55:57):
on it's either Steven or it was John. John is
the mountain climber Stevens,the scientists, the scientists.
Steve Bisson (56:04):
Yes. And bringing science into this shit is also
very important. And I reallyliked that when I could go on
and on. But this is just frombetween you and me. I think that
what you bring to the table alsois that you can be the swearing
therapist, fuck the rules, butalso have structure and both can
(56:25):
coexist. You don't have to be annr kiss. Or socialists you can
be somewhere in between and beable to flex depending on the
situation. I love my firstresponders, my last responders.
Do I want them to be more mentalhealth informed? Do I want them
to learn how to do thingsdifferently? Yes. Do I think
that mental health people whowork in the police first
(56:46):
responder, realm sheriff and allthat? Did they need to change
their fucking attitude? A littlebit? Yeah, damn right. And yet,
that's what I do for a living.
So I think that for me, youbring that balance of not taking
sides that I truly, truly
Susan Roggendorf (56:59):
appreciate.
Well, thank you. I try not to Imean, I'm trying to get as much
perspective in there. Although Ido take sides in the fact that I
believe all human beings shouldhave basic human rights, we and
that includes good health carethat's accessible for what's
needed. That is not dictated bya fucking insurance company that
is not dictated by thegovernment on what you're able
to access as a person based onyour socio economic level.
(57:22):
There's so many things that I dotake a site in, but the biggest
one is that human being shouldhave basic fucking human rights.
Beyond that, I try to bringother persons who have different
perspectives for mine, to seewhat they're thinking and what
they're doing to.
Steve Bisson (57:37):
I'll tell you why say that's not taking sides. I
just fucking logic if you askme. Taking any sides, it's like
I support LGB I don't think aside there. That's just fucking
logical to me. You want to helpfirst responders that's just
logical to me. There's nothere's not a side to be taken.
That's why I said you don't takesides.
Susan Roggendorf (57:56):
I think I think that that's I also know
that there are persons out therethat see it as taking sighs I'm
fine. Fuck it. I'm taking thesign. I'm taking a site for
human beings. There we go.
Steve Bisson (58:04):
Yeah, I feel like I'm going to a UU Church
suddenly. Tony, if you'relistening, and that was for you.
So anyway, I wanted to take youbecause it's already been an
hour went by. Oh my god. Youknow, one of the things that I
truly enjoyed, Susan is thatwe've had a few conversations
we've exchanged. It's always agreat conversation. I have a
(58:27):
couple of ideas that I wouldlove to have you back on at some
point because
Susan Roggendorf (58:31):
Absolutely, well, you're gonna become a back
on to my podcast. You're notgoing away that easy.
Steve Bisson (58:35):
I'm not believe me. i You tell me today in time,
probably that'd be kickback fromthis COVID Shit, then we'll go
from there. And I gotta get thatboard before we do that. But
that's right. But I wanted tothank you so much. Other than
your podcasts, how can peoplereach you or find you? You can
Susan Roggendorf (58:53):
always go to my website for my business. It's
co felt counseling services.comand cofell is spelled C O FFELT.
That is my grandmother's maidenname. And that's who I decided
to name my business after was tohonor her. She was my caregiver
and did a lot of good in theworld. I want her with that.
(59:14):
Another way is finding me onInstagram. I've got three
accounts. I've got the Cobellcounseling one. I've got the
sweaty therapist, and I've gotstuck the rules podcast. And
then you can find FUCK THE RULESpodcast on Spotify, Apple
podcasts, Amazon podcastsStitcher. A couple of other ones
I can't remember right now, but
Steve Bisson (59:34):
if I was brain, I Heart Radio, I'm sure and
Susan Roggendorf (59:37):
I think it's out there and I just Google it.
You'll find me.
Steve Bisson (59:44):
Well, Susan, I can't tell you how much I
appreciated our conversationtoday and I'll talk to you soon.
Susan Roggendorf (59:49):
Okay, thank you Steve for having me again.
It was wonderful conversation.
Steve Bisson (59:53):
Well, this concludes episode 58 of finding
your way through therapy SusanRogan Dorf, and I know I got it
right now. Thank you so much forthe interview really enjoyed it
talking a lot about differentthings including LGBTQ rights,
as well as other stuff,including the political side,
the social justice. I reallythink that it was a great
interview. Episode 59 will bewith Joe Riley. Jill is someone
(01:00:16):
I've been on her podcast.
Posttraumatic faith, and, youknow, seems like a theme right
now about podcasts, but I'mhoping that you join us for that
episode. Please like, subscribeor follow this podcast on your
favorite platform. A glowingreview is always helpful. And as
a reminder, this podcast is forinformation, educational, and
entertainment purposes. Ifyou're struggling with a mental
(01:00:39):
health or substance abuse issue,please reach out to a
professional counselor ortherapist for consultation.
Hi and welcome to finding your way through
therapy. I am your host, SteveBisson. I'm an author and mental
health counselor. Are youcurious about therapy? Do you
feel there is a lot of mysteryabout there? Do you wonder what
your therapist is doing and why?
The goal of this podcast is tomake therapy and psychology
accessible to all by using reallanguage and straight to the
(00:22):
point discussions. This podcastwants to remind you to take care
of your mental health, just likeyou would your physical health.
therapy should not beintimidating. It should be a
great way to better help. I willdemystify what happens in
counseling, discuss topicsrelated to mental health and
discussions you can have whatyour thoughts I also want to
introduce psychology in everydaylife. As I feel most of our
(00:44):
lives are enmeshed inpsychology. I want to introduce
the subtle and not so subtle waypsychology plays a factor in our
lives. It will be my own mix ofthoughts as well as special
guests. So join me on thisdiscovery of therapy and
psychology. Hi, and welcome toepisode 58 of finding your way
through therapy. I am Steve B.
(01:07):
So if you haven't listenedepisode 57 yet, please do so
Stephanie Simpson was veryinteresting. talk a lot about
informed leadership, herexperience with therapy and art
therapy and I thought was agreat conversation. So please go
back and listen to that if youhaven't done so. But episode 58
will be with Susan Rogen doors.
And I hope I got her name right.
Susan is a Licensed ClinicalProfessional Counselor in
(01:29):
Illinois, and the licensedmental health counselor in Iowa.
She's the LGBTQ plus owner ofcofell counseling services in
the Quad City Susan works withfolks living with anxiety in the
community as well as firstresponders, when not in her
garden are busy annoying heradult kids she's hosting and
producing our own podcast fuckthe rules. I've been on that
(01:51):
podcast before. So I'm surethat's going to come up in our
conversation. But here is theinterview. Hi, and welcome to
episode 58 of finding your waythrough therapy. It's also
YouTube channel. That's going tobe the number eight episode
that's going to be on yourYouTube channel. And I'm very
happy to have Susan Roggendorf.
So Susan is someone I'veactually listened to her
(02:12):
podcast, fuck the rules. And Ireally have enjoyed it. And we
connected. She said I waslooking for a guest. She sent me
from the swearing therapiststhat she was going to be a
guest. I'm like, Oh, that'sgreat. So you should listen to
fuck the rules or something likethat. It's like I think you're
missing then I'm the sameperson. So I'm like, Ah, shit.
So Susan, someone I reallyenjoyed listening to I've
(02:33):
obviously follow her onInstagram and everything else.
And I will be or have been ontheir podcast will be will be by
debt. All right, great. Sohopefully I'll put that in the
show notes too. So you can golisten to my appearance in our
zoom issued infested bullshit.
That happened again today. So Ijust think the world's against
(02:56):
us is,
Susan Roggendorf (02:57):
like you said they're afraid and they should
be. We got some great shit.
Steve Bisson (03:01):
I think that that's why because we don't fuck
around. And they don't likethat.
Susan Roggendorf (03:05):
Exactly. And if more people did like we did
we I think we all have a lotbetter place than we are right
now. That's for sure. Well,maybe it's
Steve Bisson (03:13):
good, because now I feel like I know you because
we've talked a couple of timesnow. But it might be important
for my audience here and findingyour way through therapy to kind
of know you. So tell me a littlebit about yourself.
Susan Roggendorf (03:23):
Sure. My name is Susan Rabindra. I am a
Licensed Clinical ProfessionalCounselor in the state of
Illinois. I am in privatepractice now. But I started out
doing er work doing a crisisclinician through the crisis
stabilization can it's in theplus cities. And that taught me
a lot about the nature oftherapy, the nature of crisis,
(03:44):
the nature of emergency care. Ihave family and friends who were
just about in every area offirst responders that I can
think of I mean, whether that'sEMS paramedic, in the ER in the
hospital work, whether they'relaw enforcement, military, I've
been married to military, soit's just, I've pretty much had
(04:06):
a lifelong experience exposed tothat cohort that I actually
provide therapy for to. I'm alsoqueer, I came out when I was
4644, something like that. Iknew I was pretty lonely. It was
age seven just didn't have aword for it. I just knew I liked
girls as much as I like boys,then as a teenager bisexual was
the label that was thrown outthere. I went with that for a
(04:29):
long time. But then, in my 30s,late 30s, early 40s, I realized
I really didn't care about whatwe call the party favors their
bringing to the party. I justliked the person. So whatever
technical box you got, I don'treally give a shit. I just want
to know you as the person. Sothen I decided that the real
descriptor would be pansexual.
So, in case anybody's wonderingout there, it's always about
(04:52):
copper paths for me, okay, I'mjust gonna put it out there.
That means because that's thejoke, you know, so you'd like
pants. Yes, the copper bottomsare best you know, they're of
course more expensive. That'sthat's sort of where I am, I
graduated in 2013 with my degreeand got licensed, spent a long
(05:12):
time in the ER, working witheverybody from those that were
anxious and depressed to thosepersons who have made thought
about suicide to those whoactually attempted and
thankfully did not complete topersons that are were having
active psychosis either throughpsychological issues and or
substance use. So I've nothingsays you're you've arrived when
(05:38):
you put into basically aheadlock and there's being feces
thrown around. You know, that'snot the family gatherings I go
to that was.
Steve Bisson (05:51):
That's, that's a spent er special, right? That's
Susan Roggendorf (05:54):
right. So and I will say that, now that I am
practice, full time, privatepractice, I do miss my crew. And
I don't miss a lot of thebullshit that went along with
the work that we did there. ButI will say that my er crew, and
especially the overnights that Istarted out in for several
years, they were some of thebest people I've ever met. And
(06:15):
they were just as black heartedinto humor as I was. So it just,
it was a really good crew. Andthen just I finally got burnt to
a crisp, I couldn't take anymore of the stress, mainly
because of the bullshit that wassurrounding what we did. And you
and I have kind of talked in thepast about what that is, and
just decided that I need to gointo private practice. And
(06:39):
finally, I just decided thateven though everybody says, Oh,
you're gonna have to file forbankruptcy, you can't do private
practice on your own, said, Fuckit. And here I am. Well,
Steve Bisson (06:49):
I like that your career has been single, we have
parallel careers. I think wetalked about this before. And
for me having the fuck it'sabout whenever people say Who
gives a shit, I feel that forfrom you, and certainly
something that we related to. SoI think that's why people are
afraid because we're told to notdo certain things or like, I'll
do it twice. Just to fuck withyou.
Susan Roggendorf (07:09):
Yes, exactly.
Steve Bisson (07:12):
And somebody good things came out of that, because
I did just your quick intro.
Going into private practiceafter doing all that stuff. What
brought you to private practiceother than burnout from er work?
And by the way, it's smearingfeces with their names on the
wall. That's really my top storyfrom the
Susan Roggendorf (07:32):
Okay, well, you know, we each have a feces
story. We're just as interestingas mine. So, yeah, we'll have to
do some comparisons later.
Steve Bisson (07:40):
I've got jail stories, too. So I imagined
those, oh,
Susan Roggendorf (07:43):
well, you're gonna you're gonna tap me on
that because I have not donejail, any kind of jail work. I
won't, I won't have anything. Soyou'll win that that group of
story so but if we can comparethe work,
Steve Bisson (07:52):
we'll get on that because I got a couple of
doozies.
Susan Roggendorf (07:58):
Um, so it was the question again, I got lost
in the PC stories.
Steve Bisson (08:02):
So we we know a little bit about you're getting
burned out. But er, and we canalways share that with the
audience here who haven'tlistened to our podcast that I
did on yours. But I also thinkthat there must be other reasons
why you go into private practiceother than just being
Susan Roggendorf (08:16):
burned out?
Well, I think it's because it'snot that I didn't like the
patients I was working with. ButI also wasn't reaching that
group of persons, I really feltmost strongly needed the
support, and that is firstresponders, and law enforcement,
because there are those personsin law enforcement that aren't
part of first responder work,like jail, county, prisons,
(08:39):
things like that, as well ashospital staff, hospital staff
don't get the support either.
And having family and friendsand co workers in all of those
fields, I really want to be ableto fucking stump that stigma out
to say that just because youneed help, doesn't mean you're
fucking weak. If anything, itmeans that you have the courage
(09:02):
to say something isn't working,I need to talk to somebody who
knows what this can be like, orknows what I'm talking about.
And I don't have to educatethem. I could just go in and
say, This is the shit that'sgoing down and I am over it, I
can't do this anymore. And Iwant to, I want to be able to
break that stigma and say, youknow, get your answers into the
office, see somebody that canhelp you get to the next point
(09:25):
of getting this, if not takencare of at least managed
wellness so you can go back toyour life. And then the LGBTQ
plus community that I belong in,we've always needed that kind of
support. There are persons thatchoose not to work with that
group. And that's and that'stheir gig. You know, I'm not
gonna put them down. Everybodygoes into their own niche,
(09:47):
right, but I wanted to be thereto support persons to continue
the work that had started me onthe path of being able to be who
I was, and that came throughtherapy as well was someone who
was very formative was a part ofthe country Indeed, very
informative, very safe to bearound. And I wanted to be a
part of that kind of cohort oftherapists that could do that
for our community. So that'skind of why I got into private
(10:10):
practice, aside from theburnout.
Steve Bisson (10:12):
Okay. And I certainly hear a lot of
different things I want to askyou about, you said, your own
therapy, which is alwaysinteresting to me, because
finding your way through therapyis exactly that. I tell people
that being in therapy isactually a sign of strength, not
a weakness. What made you reachout to therapy would help the
most. And maybe I think theother part that I really find
interesting is, you know, I'm,Mr. privilege, I'm a white
(10:36):
heterosexual male. In thisworld, I'm getting older, so I'm
almost there to for that oldpart. But there is never going
to be a time where I will not bean ally, to our LGBTQ i A plus
community never will changethat. But I think that how do we
also help being had gettingheterosexuals on board so to
(10:58):
speak, I don't like the wholepride month thing, not because I
don't believe in pride. Ibelieve that pride is 12 months
a year. You know, if you'reattractive, I, when people tell
me that they're gay, I always golike, Great, I'm happy for you.
But to me, that's notconsequential unless it's
affected you negatively, and Iwill do the therapy about that.
But to me, it's like good foryou. I think there's so many
(11:19):
questions that come with that.
So how do we become an ally?
Number one, and number two, theother thing I would love to hear
is more about your experience intherapy and how it changed, did
it help you get out of thecloset, so to speak,
Susan Roggendorf (11:31):
okay, to speak to the first part, which is
becoming an ally, a lot of timesyou and I find that persons are
afraid of things they don'tknow. And that's hard to
believe, even in 2022 thatpeople don't know about what it
means to be gay. What it meansto be someone who might be now
non binary, right? What it meansto be a gender fluid. And what
(11:55):
does it mean to be sis which isthat gender you're assigned at
birth? I identify as sis female?
Well, I have no problem with thegirly, jiggly bits. They're part
of who I am. And that's just me.
Steve Bisson (12:06):
But if someone doesn't know what CES is, can
you explain that?
Susan Roggendorf (12:10):
CES is basically the gender of signed,
when you're born, it's not yoursex, it's you know, you're seen
as female. And I wish I couldremember what ces means right
now. And I can't come up withthe abdomen. And there is and
they can't Yeah, so menopausebrain right now it just right
through the head. But to saythat your your sis means that's
(12:32):
the gender you were assigned atbirth, because that's what was
recognized as one binary or theother, either male or female,
right. And as we have grown ashuman beings, we realize that
some persons internally do notmatch what they've been assigned
outside. And to be an ally, isto be educated and have been
(12:53):
taking, you know, workshops anddiving, diving deep into
coursework and things like that.
It means reading informationfrom reliable sources. There's
the Trevor Project that workswith teams, that is hugely
important because they providesupport for teens who are
feeling either caught inenvironments where they can't
(13:13):
express who they are, or they'vebeen victimized because of who
they are as teams, basicallytrying to save lives for teens
who are suicidal, because theycan't get that support as part
of our community, LGBTQ plus.
We've got all kinds of otherorganizations out there,
including like free mom hugs,that talks to parents who may
(13:34):
not be in the communitythemselves, but they have
children who are part of that.
There's also the free dad hugs,who are part of that
organization as well. You'll seepersons including myself out in
different events that thataround the LGBTQ plus community
wearing shirts that say free momhugs, or we have shirts, like
one of my other shirts that saysif your mother or father doesn't
(13:54):
want you, you're my child now,right? And I'm going to be that
support for you, I will help youget to that next step of helping
you have a healthy life. So youwant to get into things like
that locally, you might havestuff, we have the project of
the class cities here, thatprovides a lot of information.
There are now clinics like theLGBTQ plus clinic in Iowa City
through the University of IowaHospitals. So you just have to
(14:17):
take a look around locally,depending on where you're at, on
what organizations will have themost reliable information. If
it's a fringe group that is benttowards one specific view. I do
not recommend those obviously.
Because the bigger organizationsthat can recognize as reliable
won't be able to present you notjust the information about LGBTQ
(14:40):
plus community, but give you thehistory of it. And where are we
going? How can you supportpersons, whether you're in the
community or not? So to be anally and educate yourself?
That's number one. Number two, Ijust think it's about accepting
people for being a human being.
Right? I don't know how fuckingelse to say that. I mean, cuz I
don't I don't care if you're asis white male, what I care
(15:02):
about is, are you a good person,meaning you're not actively
setting out to harm personsbecause they don't look like you
sound like they were looked likeyou right? Now so what if they
don't love like you do as longas it is not harming anyone,
right? What's the big deal. Andthe Gay Agenda is just to be
human. There I said it, I gaveit away, my toaster away now
(15:23):
because it gave away the secret
Steve Bisson (15:28):
of finding your way through therapy exclusive,
please
Susan Roggendorf (15:31):
note, the loop my toaster,
Steve Bisson (15:37):
you're gonna lose that gift bag they also gave
you,
Susan Roggendorf (15:40):
oh, I didn't get a gift bag. I just wanted
the toaster. And that's what I
Steve Bisson (15:43):
see Bagley around here in Boston at least gives
you a gift bag with that too.
All right.
Susan Roggendorf (15:52):
I mean, that's the gay agenda. We just want to
be accepted as humans, we wantrights the same as everybody
else does. Right? So that's thefirst question of being an ally.
The second one is about my owntherapy. And I am not shy about
it. I'm not ashamed of it. I wasin my 20s. And I was having a
really difficult time being amom. Right? I came from trauma.
(16:15):
And I was having difficultiesbeing a mom, I was having
difficulties. In my thirdmarriage, I've been married
three times, because you know,I've got to fit that
heteronormative ideal of what itmeans to be a woman in our
society. And I started going toa couple therapists, I did not
click, and I talked about thisto family, friends, clients
patients, that the first personisn't necessarily going to be
(16:38):
the therapist for you. Becauseit's like anything else, it's
about meeting with someone thatyou're going to be comfortable
enough to be vulnerable and feelsafe to share things you've not
sent to anyone else. Forwhatever reason. And it was my
third try. When I finally foundLinda Jones, she was through the
Employee Assistance Program ofthe place that I was working at
(17:00):
before they were contractedthrough a local hospital,
Community Mental Health WellnessProgram. And it's because of
Lynda, that, over the course ofoften on of about 10 years,
there was a lot of shit for meto go through, we would start
with one thing work through it,I would need a fucking break.
(17:23):
And then something else wouldcome up and we'd work on that.
And it's because of her work andher ability to make me feel safe
and heard that I could saythings I hadn't been able to say
before, which included I fuckingdig chicks as much as I dig
dudes. So what does that makeme? Other than bisexual? And is
(17:46):
it is it allowed? And what doesthat mean to be mom? And how do
I model this for my kid? Or do Imodel this for my kid? And oh my
god, what is the fallout from myfamily? When they find out? Do I
say anything to my family? Itwas a lot of pulling things away
that had been layered on me asexpectations and the idealized
perception of who Susan was thatI accepted as my own, that I had
(18:09):
to pull that shit off of me andsee me for who I really was for
myself. Right? And I certainlywasn't the squarey don't give a
shit attitude back then than Iam now. That's been a work in
progress for like 2530 years. Soit was the best thing I've ever
fucking done other than havingmy kids. So they don't give
Steve Bisson (18:29):
a shit attitude is more like 20 to 30 years old
now.
Susan Roggendorf (18:33):
It's more like 15 years old. I mean, I mean to
really live that I don't give afuck anymore. That's about 15
years. Okay, and especially inthe last five, where I know I'm
over 50 Fuck you. I'm notdealing with for your your kick
ideas of how things are supposedto be. No, no, I'm not doing
(18:53):
that I have. I have so muchthing I have so many things to
do in such a short time before Itake the big old dirt nap, suck
your shit. I'm not I'm notdealing with you. I'm going to
deal with my own so I can figureout how I can achieve the things
I want to do before I grew upthat I got shit to do get out of
my way.
Steve Bisson (19:09):
And you bet you've had to repress where you were
for so long, too. So there's alot of shit that catch up if you
ask me. Absolutely. But one ofthe things that you said that I
really push on this podcastregularly and I'm gonna say just
what you said and I reallyappreciate what you said is that
it you know, took about threedifferent tries before finding
the right therapist. And I tellpeople like it's not CBT it's
(19:31):
not DBT it's not whateverfucking type of therapy you
think it is. It's thetherapeutic alliance that works.
And there's nothing else. Andtherapy is also something that's
messy. I think that a lot ofpeople don't understand. And
also you're trained in firstresponders like both of us were
kind of done for a long time.
That doesn't mean I have afucking magic wand in the back
(19:53):
of my fucking truck.
Susan Roggendorf (19:57):
Oh yeah, wouldn't be nice witness.
Steve Bisson (19:59):
Oh, look First responders. Let me get the right
magic.
Susan Roggendorf (20:04):
Just a minute, I've got this box.
Steve Bisson (20:07):
And I think that that's the stuff that I really
appreciate what you said, youwent back and forth with I can't
remember her name that Linda wasa great therapist. Fantastic.
How do you communicate that withyour clients today because I,
especially first responders, Ilove my first responders. That's
one of my passions. But a lot ofthem are looking for the magic
one sometimes. And I know Idon't carry it. And if there was
(20:30):
one that was taught to me at mycollege, when I was doing this
training, I was fucking sickthat day or something?
Susan Roggendorf (20:38):
Well, I don't think that any of us get the
magic wand during our training,because somebody somewhere has
to have had it. And there's onething that is therapists we'd
like to do is let other peopleknow this shit works. Try this,
right. So nobody has that magicwand. Basically, when I tell my
clients, especially my firstresponders, who I love working
with them, and as well ashospital persons, and other law
(21:00):
enforcement, is that unlike whatyou see in fucking media, which
just perpetuates the stereotypeof this aha moment, and
everything's blissful, and theygo off into center, and
everything's great, that's a lotof shit, right? In my therapy,
things got uncomfortable.
Sometimes they were so painful,I would stand up in the middle
(21:21):
of search and tell my therapist,go Buck yourself and walk out
and come back the next week,right? Because I was processing
all that. And we found a betterway for me to be able to handle
those horrible feelings. Otherthan saying Fuck you, and
walking out, sometimes it wasjust fuck you. And she'd give me
10 minutes to settle down orwhatever. And then we continue.
But I tell my clients,especially my first responders,
(21:42):
at all that you can tell me tofuck off, I'm not gonna take it
personally, that's a response tome that says we're getting close
to something, right. And that ifyou need space, I will give you
that space. And we may notpursue it for the rest of the
session, but we will revisit itin a future session. And it's
frustrating, it's so fuckingfrustrating because they have so
(22:04):
much to do. And sometimesthey're coming in at the
direction of their department ortheir manager or their
supervisor, whatever. Now, I donot have the training to do for
evaluation. For dutyevaluations, I just don't do
that. I don't think it's my jobto do that. And I leave it to
other persons to pick up thatduty. So that's one thing that
helps ease some of the tensionwhen my first responders come in
(22:27):
knowing that I am not doing afit for duty, which is a
different set of evaluations.
Mine is just talking about whatthe fuck is going on? Why is
this not working for youanymore? What happens? And what
is it that's getting in yourway, and it's going to take a
little bit of time, it's goingto get maybe some really ugly
awful feelings at times, but I'mhere, I'm sure shit not going to
(22:50):
flinch. Because believe me, I'vebeen through a lot of shit. But
I'm here to to keep this spaceavailable so they can explore
what the fuck is going on.
Steve Bisson (23:00):
And I think you've said a lot of good things in
regards to for me when you're intherapy, I have a board in my
office, then I think I've sharedthis on my podcast, we'll share
it again, because it's a goodstory. There's a FAQ board on my
wall. And every time someonetells me to fuck off, I go check
off the board. If insurancecompanies are listening, fu
stands for follow up just forthe record. But for the rest of
(23:23):
you, it leaves pluck off and Itell people that's the ultimate
compliment you can give me and Itell them that if you trust me
and you tell me to fuck off,that means I got you. And to me,
that's not a you need fiveminutes to go to the bathroom,
calm yourself, whatever, I don'tcare, we'll do that. But to me,
it's the ultimate complimentbecause that is not a detriment
(23:45):
to our relationship. In fact, ithelps the relationship. I don't
know what you think about that,but,
Susan Roggendorf (23:50):
but it shows trust. It shows that there is a
point that you've gotten to anarea that is so dark and ugly
and wiggly, and it's just shit.
And you've been able to ignoreit, ignore it, ignore it. Now
it's in the middle of the room,and you have trusted me enough
to put it in the middle of theroom. Now, you recognize it for
what it is you tell me to gofuck off. Okay, okay, well put
(24:11):
the shit in the box if you wantto deal with it later in the
session, right? If not, we willaddress it and then in a future
session. I'm cool with that. Butfor you to tell me to fuck off
to tell me to go fuck yourselfor whatever the fuck phrase of
your choice is. It's a trustthing. I know that you've
trusted me enough to feel thatyou can say exactly how you're
(24:32):
feeling at that moment and it'snot pre rehearsed from when you
just came in through the door.
Steve Bisson (24:40):
I always like the fact that some of my clients are
so used to it. They're like, Oh,get ready to go put a checkmark
on your board.
Susan Roggendorf (24:48):
I think I might have board envy I may have
to go do that.
Steve Bisson (24:51):
As I like that because it's literally I have
like three or four clients andliterally go fucking board on
yours is gonna get anothercheckmark here. Like that's
great. But they created so muchtrust and openness to using that
language and all that, becausewhat are the other things that I
kind of wanted to? I wasthinking about it while we were
saying that a lot of people areafraid of that language. And I
(25:11):
think that first responders inparticular, that's the language
sometimes they can use in orderto express very difficult stuff.
I certainly see that also in ER,people, I see that in last
responders with people who workthe medical examiner's and
forensic people, I will neverI'll never forget my court
people either. But do you feelthat you know that that's part
(25:33):
of what we need to be more opento and let people have that
language and make it comfortablefor them?
Susan Roggendorf (25:40):
Absolutely, because I think part of that
issue, and I'm a language nerdabout how language develops and
how we use it to expressourselves. And that was one of
my studies in my undergrad. Andthe word McHugh is a very
aggressive term. And I mean,it's something that for some
people, it puts them on thedefensive, they don't want to do
(26:00):
conflict, but if you come atthem with a fuck you, that's
usually a sign that shits gonnago down, right. And in those
occupations, where shit goesdown all the time, that's going
to be part of the lexicon. Now,not everybody in those careers,
has that extensive of swearlanguage, like what we do. Some,
(26:22):
some of them feel perfectlyadequate, using other terms. And
that's funny. But I don't thinkyou should be seen as something
horrible and taboo, if that'swhat it takes to help you
express how you're trulyfeeling. And that can be
everything from excitement, tosexiness to anger, by all means
(26:43):
use it. Right, I don't see aproblem, as long as there's an
opportunity to explore them alittle bit to find out what that
fucky really means. If you don'tknow what it means being able to
ask for clarification,
Steve Bisson (26:55):
right. And I think that sometimes what one of the
first responders I've workedwith, has said to me, sometimes
there's no word fuck you fitsperfectly, when you don't even
know how to get that word out.
It might be 12 words, and it'stoo complicated to get all all
of that out. So fuck you worksreally well, or fuck off, or
whatever, I tell people thatit's always important to find a
way to express it no matter howit is. Because if you're going
(27:16):
to be so hung up on the word,then you're probably disturbing
the people that's in front ofyou.
Susan Roggendorf (27:25):
And there are some people that just don't feel
comfortable with it, Steve, andthat's okay. You know, if they
prefer to have an environmentwhere that's not used, they will
attract a certain clientele thatfeel more comfortable with that,
that therapist, and that's fine.
You know, and I've said beforethat, if my, if, as a therapist,
I have a client coming in, andthey don't feel comfortable
swearing, that's cool. I willdump it down. And we will just
(27:47):
talk and that's fine. Right?
I've also had persons who comein the first words out of their
mouth is you're not going tofucking get to me. Okay? I'm not
sure what you mean by that. Youshowed up and you walked in the
door, and he sat in my chair. Somaybe we should talk about why
you're here? Not sure what'sgoing on?
Steve Bisson (28:08):
You're not gonna get me. Okay. What am I supposed
to say to that?
Susan Roggendorf (28:14):
Yeah, he showed up. Let's talk about
that. Right. I don't think thelanguage should be a barrier, I
think it should be utilized in away that makes the therapist
feel comfortable to allow theclients to feel comfortable, if
that means you swear, great. Ifit means you don't suffer,
fantastic, if it means that youhave to use music, to help get
things across perfect. If itmeans you have to use artwork to
(28:35):
help express emotions to that'sperfect. The medium of art is
there to help us tell stories,and that that has to happen in
session to then so be it.
Steve Bisson (28:45):
And I think that you bring up another point is
that art shows up in differentforms. I had a guest a few
episodes ago. And the bestcompliment She said she's a
singer and is also a coach andand I said I can't sing I don't
have a voice I can't sing she'slike, but yet you're on podcasts
on a 45 at that point. So yourvoice is still a gift. And your
(29:07):
the way you express yourself isprobably unique. And that's what
people want to hear. And so Ithink that that's another thing
that I've used since then withmy clients saying, This is how
you express yourself and maybeyou know, that may not be
everyone's cup of tea. In fact,I hope you're not everyone's cup
of tea. But it might also be thewhat someone needed to hear at
the right time. And remindmyself of that, too.
Susan Roggendorf (29:31):
I think that's a very apt phrase. I mean, it's
your voice has meaning forsomeone somewhere, not for
everybody. And that's okay,because I'm not sure I would
want to be accepted by everyone,whatever that term means, I
mean, general populace orwhatever. I just want to make
sure that the persons that I'mreaching understand I'm someone
(29:52):
that they can talk to and if I'mnot the therapist for them, I
will make sure I get themresources so they can find the
most appropriate person
Steve Bisson (30:00):
A little bit of the crisis that we have overall
in this country is the lack oftherapists. And I don't know if
you're finding that in the QuadCities in in your area, but I
know for our area's beendifficult. How do we get more
people in the profession numberone or number two? How do we get
more people to engage moreclients? I mean, it's very
(30:20):
difficult. We also have burnout,we also have issues so
Susan Roggendorf (30:24):
well, I think the last response to the first
which is, we're so burned out,we are so overloaded. That's why
it's hard to find persons tocome into the field because they
hear about this and think, Well,shit, I don't want to go into
something that by 10 years thatI am done with it, I'm moving on
to another career. Right. Theother portion of it is fucking
insurance companies. Oh, my God,oh, my God, I knew you'd get me
(30:47):
there. See, Jenna's Oh, myhealth, I just,
Steve Bisson (30:51):
I opened up on your podcast, it's your turn.
You don't put it on the board.
In the studio, but I will getone for the studio.
Susan Roggendorf (31:07):
It's just that insurance companies started down
as a good idea. And now it'sjust fucked up medical care,
it's fucked up a lot of thingsthat has to do with the care and
health of human beings in ourcountry. You have companies that
one of my guests, Reverend, weshould talk about where you
order a steak and potato andit's appropriate to give you a
(31:28):
fucking peanut butter and jellysandwich, because that's what
the insurance company saysthat's the only thing you
deserve. Fuck you. Correct. Ihave clients that people talk
about going into privatepractice just for cash only now
for some persons that workswherever their market is,
whatever their niche is, formost of us, we can't do that. In
my area, people are heavily inshort here, the employers here,
(31:51):
right to not take insurancereally limits that population
that I have found, I can't doand make a living because you
know, factor likes or tacos, andI like a roof over my head. So
I'm going to I'm going to acceptit some insurance is not
dependent on all of them. Right?
And so when you have somebodywho's a client that pays for
their insurance, they want thosebenefits. But the problem is
(32:11):
with insurance companies, peoplethink, Oh, you pay my insurance
company pays you $145 An hour,if that's your rate for 45
minutes. No, that's what I wouldbill, if you were cash, that's
what would be appropriate tocover costs of overhead rent and
everything else, I have to docontinuing education, keep my
license and all that other goodstuff and eat my tacos. However,
(32:32):
if you're going to be patientwith an insurance company,
they'll say, we'll give you $90For this session, maybe,
depending on the plan of theclient, they may actually only
give you $45. And the clientwon't have a copay. So that's
it, you've gone from 145, downto $45. And you're supposed to
figure out how to make a livingfrom that. That is what keeps a
(32:54):
lot of people out of going intoour field of mental health.
Because not only do you have tofigure out how you're going to
make ends meet by not gettingthe amount that you set in order
to have a decent living, I'mtalking to you know, I'm sure
there are people out there thatmake loads more money than I do,
(33:14):
but not very many, not withoutsidestream income. And how do
you pay for other things thatyou're not going to get in being
employed by someone else, like Ihave to pay for my own
insurance. And around hereyou're looking at for single
person, four to $500 a month,and you have a deductible of
between six and $8,000 for asingle person. So that also gets
(33:34):
in the way. So insurancecompanies once again, stuck in
you. So all of those things arewhat prevent a lot of people
from going into privatepractice. And then you get old
fucks like me to go, you knowwhat, how much worse can it be I
have been poor, I have been onfood stamps, I have worked three
jobs to make ends meet. How muchmore fucking difficult could
(33:58):
this be. And it's something thatI don't want to spend whatever
time left to have, to meburdened with all the paperwork
and bullshit of working in aninstitution or an organization
for mental health. When I can gointo private practice. I do have
to do my paperwork. But it'snificantly less than what I had
(34:19):
to do in a community healthorganization. I can spend the
majority of my time actuallydoing therapy with my clients,
right? I get to see them on aregular basis. And I watched
them progress as they workthrough the therapy. That to me
is worth the pain and effort oftrying to figure out how to make
ends meet as a therapist inprivate practice. battling with
(34:41):
insurance companies battlingwith other shit that's coming
down and making sure my clientsare taken care of.
Steve Bisson (34:50):
Right. And I think that that's your you hit a lot
of things right like the nail onthe head. I mean, I think that's
charging four or $500 Whenyou're in New York City for out
of pocket is not unheard of, orLA or Chicago and parts of
Chicago's anyway. But you gointo rural Iowa or even for us,
I mean, I'm in I'm inMassachusetts, you go from
(35:11):
Boston to Central Mass, it's adifferent story. And I think
that that's the other part thatthe insurance companies have
preyed upon us in regards to alot of this stuff. So I embrace
that completely. Yeah, let meshift gears a little bit so that
you don't tell me to fuck offtoo often. Because I can go on
for insurance companies. But Ithink I went through today a
(35:34):
very good ranting way in yourpodcast, so please go listen to
that. But I want to go back to alittle bit of like, this is
being recorded in June. We'regoing to be released in July.
Recently, we had roe overturned.
Yep. And there's so manyfeelings that I have in regards
to that. But more importantly, Igotta go back to a little bit of
(35:55):
the LGBTQ community, becausewhen you look at what the
Justice Chief Justice ClarenceThomas said, in regards to
looking at to repel otherthings, including gay marriage,
how it is, I know that you can'tspeak for everyone in the LGBTQ
community. I'm not that stupid.
But how is that affectingdifferent people in the
(36:16):
community? Because to me, it'sjust like, We're fucking turning
the clocks back. So much on somany levels. And it's
frustrating, and I'm very sad,actually. But I wanted to know,
if you had any indication howit's affecting a lot of
different people.
Susan Roggendorf (36:32):
I am fucking furious at this. And it's not
enough to have to work forsocial justice continually in
2022 for my friends and familyfor persons of color and come
from marginalized communities.
But now we've got this, which isbullshit, because no sooner was
Roe v. Wade overturned, thenThomas comes out, says, oh, and
we're going to talk about samesex marriage. And we're going to
(36:54):
talk about contraceptives. Andwe're also going to talk about
privacy in the bedroom. Right?
So all the suppose it straightwhite persons that are out there
thinking this can't come for me?
Guess what, if you're kinky inthe bedroom, they're gonna find
out and it's not gonna go wellfor you either. This doesn't
stop with just Roe v. Wade. Andwith the LGBTQ plus community,
the problem is, we just, we justgot some of the basic human
(37:19):
rights everybody else was ableto enjoy. Now we're looking at
the possibility having it takenaway again, what the fuck this
is, What country did I go, Ijust, you know, there are
countries around the world, thatdo not have the benefits that we
do living in the United Statesthat are lightyears ahead of us
in terms of human rights, andtreating people like human
(37:43):
beings. And of course, there arethose in our communities, LGBTQ
plus, that are worried andscared and afraid. I also work
with trans individuals. And Isupport trans persons and trans
rights. I belong to anorganization that our death
threats have just quadrupled,right? Because of the Roe v.
(38:04):
Wade overturned, as like, fuckwere you parasites that suddenly
now it's okay to you know,suddenly come out of the
woodwork and attack is nothinghas changed other than this
overturn. And we're gonna fighton that too, right? But now we
have to be concerned, even moreso than normal about physical
safety of those of us in thecommunity. That's always been a
(38:27):
concern. There's never not beena fucking concern about somebody
coming to beat the shit out ofus or kill us because we aren't
like them. Right? Now. It's evenmore so. Now I'm really
concerned for my clients, myfamily and friends who are part
of our community.
Steve Bisson (38:43):
The fact that we're now going into private
life of people and to me thatthat includes abortion that
includes whatever sex you decideto have I really like in a
meaningless in the most lovingway, I just don't care in the
way that people do. Whateverconsenting adults, I don't care.
I just
Susan Roggendorf (39:01):
do whatever it is you do. But you know what?
Guess what, that's the greatthing about being a mature
adult, is that you can saythat's just not for me, and then
your fucking mind your ownbusiness, right? Oh, there.
That's a concept a lot of peoplethat most of the country are
fine with. That's why thisoverturn is so stupid. Most of
(39:23):
the country does not want thisfrom everything I'm reading in
reliable news sources, sayingthe percentage anywhere from 68
to 74% of the country think thisis stupid, because they want to
just mind their own business andlive their own lives.
Steve Bisson (39:37):
Right? Well, they think that that's what logic
dictates right? Unfortunately,we lost logic a long time ago.
Unfortunately, when we're tryingto regulate people's vaginas are
oh you you don't feel the genderthat you're assigned to and you
want to change will decide thatthat's not right or wrong, who
and again, from the bottom of myheart and mean this in a caring
(39:59):
way. don't give a fuck. Yeah,hopefully it comes off as what I
hope it's not like I don't care,like people's lives or people's
lives. And I think I hatefucking saying this. I do work
with people from the LGBTQcommunity, I always feel like
it's one of those things like,Oh, I have a white black friend,
I hate that shit. But a lot ofthem have been scared since the
(40:22):
leak. And I can feel it fromthat community, in a general
sense, getting worse in the lastweek or so how do we work as
allies for everyone because Iknow I want to be your ally, I
want to be everyone's ally,because I truly don't see where
this country is going to makeany sense of this, because it's
(40:42):
not an abortion is not mybusiness, people's sexual,
whatever they decide in life,it's their choice. If they don't
feel their gender, again, that'stheir choice. And there's a lot
of complexities that go withthat. And I'm not trying to
minimize them. But I just don't,that's not for me to decide.
That's not for me to control.
How do we get to a point wherewe can educate people around?
Susan Roggendorf (41:03):
Well, like I said earlier, which is go to
those organizations that workwith those persons that support
those persons? Mainly, is itabout? Do you want to put first
of all, where your money whereyour mouth is, if you have the
funds available to do so donateto those organizations that are
supporting the groups that arebeing targeted? Right, you know,
(41:23):
the NAACP, I have watched them,and I have followed them, and I
have donated monies to them.
Because again, failing friendswho are persons of color in
marginalized communities, I wantthem to continue having their
rights, even though they'rejeopardized all the fucking
time. Planned Parenthood, again,if there's another organization
that's really good to getinformation from and donate to
(41:43):
or be part of their events andprotests. The other thing is, if
people have been hanging backfor whatever reason, I don't
know. And I'm not going tocriticize because I don't know
the situation. But get involvedwith the political system, for
God's sakes, right. starteducating yourself about who
those public representativesare, that are supposed to be
supportive of your groups andyour member, your member of
(42:07):
society, just being a humanbeing making sure they're human
rights, making sure there's goodhealth care, because guess what,
Roe v Wade isn't going to stopat just the abortion issue. It's
not going to stop atcontraceptives and same sex
marriage and privacy in thebedroom. Pretty soon, they'll
start degrading workers rights.
(42:28):
Right? Unions were alwaysaround, folks. And there are a
lot of things on the books nowthat protect workers, there's
going to be issues with women'srights in that pertain to
anything else, I mean, am Igoing to allow be allowed to
maintain my own business, right,make a living for myself, have
voting rights, everything isopen now to be targeted. And we
(42:50):
have to find ways to safeguardwhat rights we still have and
get those rights back that we'vejust lost. The first thing to
do, again, is go to thoseorganizations that support those
communities you want to be anally with if you're not part of
it. Secondly, start educatingyourself in the political system
of who's a representative thatmirrors the interest and the
rights that you want to haveprotected. Right. It's easier
(43:14):
now than ever. I mean, for fucksake, I'm 55. I remember used to
have to go to the library to getthe books, which, by the way,
love the library, I'm notdenigrating them at all. But
you'd have to go to the library,you'd have to go someplace to
get the information you'd haveto write or make the call. Now,
it's a matter of clicking on theinternet, finding that
representatives page or Congressperson's page, reading about the
(43:36):
things that they voted on whythey voted on it, you can text
you can email, you can call youcan still write letters, those
take a little bit longer, right.
There's still ways to connectwith those representatives that
are supposed to be theresupporting you. So get involved
with that.
Steve Bisson (43:51):
I think that's a great idea. And certainly with
elections coming up in Novemberfor different people. I think
that we need to send a strongmessage in regards to all that.
Absolutely. So I'm not exactlysure what's going to happen
next, but in a good
Susan Roggendorf (44:08):
No, no, no, I don't expect anything but good.
People keep bringing up MargaretAtwood's Handmaid's Tale. I know
it's a series on Hulu. But Iread the book when it came out
originally made. He's scared thebejesus out of me, because it's
talking about the very thingswe're living through. Well,
funnily enough, Margaret Atwoodhas said this in multiple
interviews since the book cameout. She based that book on real
(44:30):
life, historical and currentevents at that time, about how
rights were taken away becausethere was a certain sector
Christian sect that decided thattheir way was the only way and
then we had the Republicanelites. The problem is people
think it's just a work offiction. It's fictionalized
history, meaning that she hasbrought all this in and at the
time, there was still that shithappening in other countries,
(44:52):
right women and minorities, buta lot of people don't understand
is that what's different betweenthe book and the series? The
book? No Buddy, unless you'rewhite, and male, were allowed to
have anything to do with anykind of job or position of
power. In the RepublicanGillean, the series was a little
more open, they tried tomodernize and a little bit more
(45:13):
than what the book had. Sohere's the thing, folks, this
has happened before it canhappen again, we have to get off
their asses and start being moreactive and proactive.
Steve Bisson (45:25):
And I think that what you said earlier, I come
back to something you said, youknow, when you were still young
and trying to beheteronormative. We're going
back to that, and again, this isjust fucked up that we're going
back to the 70s. In the 60s, inthe mentality of what you need
is a boy and a girl. Two and ahalf kids, that SUV and the
(45:47):
white picket fence that weregoing back to that shit. And to
me, that's just the other partthat we need to fight
continuously because I stillhave women who have been dating
for a few years now. Somebody'slike, I don't want any kids. And
I'm like, Okay, you're not upsetand like, it's your choice, but
do I care? And like, do youreally you don't think more or
(46:08):
less? No, I don't give a shit.
And in a good way, you don'tneed to fall in everybody else's
box. But there's, there's a fearfor me that I'm gonna have
become like polygamist, so I canmarry as many gay guys as I can,
so I can bring them to Canadayou and your tribe, okay. It's
(46:29):
just weird. But I had thatconversation with Mike place,
he's like, you're gonna have tolike become a polygamist. So you
can bring us all up to the trainon the train. And I'm like,
Damn, I'm gonna have to have therailroad up the candidate again.
Susan Roggendorf (46:47):
Maybe it may well be. But here's the here's
the thing about theheteronormative thing. You can
be hetero. But why does it haveto be the norm for everyone, if
you are hetero, if that's howyou identify, go, powers be with
you. As long as you're livingthe best life you can and you're
not hurting yourself or anybodyelse. Again, as you said, I mean
(47:09):
this in all sincerity, I reallydon't give a shit good. Because
I'm in a mature adult, where Ihave my own things to do here.
And I'm distracted with dealingwith my kids and making sure I'm
annoying them on a regularbasis, taking care of my garden,
taking care of my clients. Soyou go do who you want to do
however you want to do betweenyou, as long as it's consenting.
(47:30):
Have at it. I don't care. Andthat's what I'm saying is we're
not against being hetero, we'reagainst not being treated like
human beings with basic rights.
Steve Bisson (47:39):
I've never met someone who happens to be in the
LGBTQ i A plus community eversay, You know what, we don't
like you because you'reheterosexual. They don't give a
shit. And I'm like, yeah, don'ttake this the wrong way. I still
don't give a shit about whateveryou do in your private life.
It's fine with me, what can I doto support you? That's more what
(48:00):
we need to do. Absolutely. Butyeah, I think that roe being
overturned is just gonna open acan of worms that I just am
afraid is gonna get worse.
Susan Roggendorf (48:11):
Guess what, Canada has been smashed on the
fucking highway dude, because 13states immediately had trigger
laws that said that you're notallowed to have an abortion now,
immediately, right? Fuckingimmediately, we've got other
states that are considering bansor restrictions that have been
sitting off to the side for sometime now, because there had not
been any kind of support for it,that are now going to suddenly
(48:33):
come on stage to be consideredagain, you've only got a handful
of states, Southwest and West inthe United States that it's
still legal to have an abortion.
Steve Bisson (48:42):
I mean, the northeast, we're very lucky in
that way. And I'm not gonna
Susan Roggendorf (48:47):
well, before before Roe v. Wade in case it
came down in the courts, and itbecame a federal protected right
46 states out of the Union hadhad illegal abortions 36 Were
only one more state than thenthat still allows legal
abortion.
Steve Bisson (49:06):
Yeah, they're talking about 2020 Fucking 22.
How that has come about. I mean,there's, there's, I don't know
how we can always this is goingto be something that pissed off
people. And I'm fine with
Susan Roggendorf (49:18):
that. Oh, honey, we have pissed off people
from the moment you open yourmouth. And so when I
Steve Bisson (49:22):
go back to the speech, I think it's from the
newsroom. And he talks aboutAmerica not being the best
country in the world. maternaldeath is one of the worst
countries. There's somecountries who are less quote
developed that have betternumbers than we do. And then
we're looking at women's rightsand we're gonna be down there
again, too. And we look at ourgay rights. How can we ever say
(49:47):
that this country is the bestcountry in the world because the
opportunity is only for certainpeople.
Susan Roggendorf (49:54):
I know exactly. I'll get in trouble
Steve Bisson (49:55):
for saying that.
But,
Susan Roggendorf (49:56):
but you know what, this also opens up the
conversation about how to Westart putting term limits on the
Supreme Court. These people areappointed for life. And there's
only nine of them. And how cannine persons have a say over the
majority of the country likethis? Because we've allowed it
to happen. It's it was builtthat way. And we've never had we
never had the opportunity ormaybe the motivation to look at
(50:20):
things need to change in thatdirection.
Steve Bisson (50:22):
And maybe perhaps also looking at term limits for
Senators and Representatives.
Fuck yes.
Susan Roggendorf (50:27):
I mean, that's been something I have been on
board with since oh my god in my20s because I thought it was
ludicrous. You can be elected adnauseam. What? If you get enough
people that pay you enough moneyto get you into the right
elections? Or you can redrawyour fucking districts? Of
course, you're always gonna bein power. What? Welcome to the
Middle Ages. I guess you get tohave your fiefdoms.
Steve Bisson (50:48):
Yeah, I can't remember what that the name of
it was when you just redistrictall the time. But it was. It's
based on a case inMassachusetts, no less. I can't
remember the name of it. But howabout we switch? We we kind of
like, go back to something thatmeans a lot to me, which is your
podcast. I've listened like, youknow, people say this on their
podcasts and all that. But I Idon't say things. I don't mean,
(51:11):
I listen to your podcasts everysingle time. Can you tell us
more about your podcasts?
Susan Roggendorf (51:16):
Faster? How much time you might be
Steve Bisson (51:18):
allowed. Go for a walk, go get my coffee.
Susan Roggendorf (51:21):
Go get that board. go to Home Depot. Get
that for it.
Steve Bisson (51:26):
I can't leave the house though. COVID.
Susan Roggendorf (51:29):
Damage, Steve.
call yourself an ally. Come on,man. Damn it. My podcast that
came about because I was a gueston a couple podcasts. And they
allowed me just to be myself.
And I thought that's a lot offun. And I, I never, ever get to
(51:49):
this point in my life, because Ireally felt I didn't have much
to say or put out there. Right.
So then one day, it was abouttrans rights day, that that was
an innocent day compared towhere we are now. But I wanted
to put my voice out therebecause a person's I care about
people I've worked with that. Iwant to make sure that they know
that I am there. And I want tocontinue working to make sure
(52:11):
that they have basic humanrights. And they put out an
Instagram reel. And I felt gooddoing that. And some of the
responses I got I got I got somehate mail, whatever, turned it
over to the right authorities.
Like fuck you I've lived I'velived through trauma, who the
fuck are you. And that's what Ido with all of my hate emails, I
turn it over to authorities likeit, whatever. But the fact that
(52:35):
persons found something in itthat gave them hope, or made
them feel a little moreunderstood or felt like there
was one more voice saying, Thishas to change, and I'm going to
be there to continue helpingfind a way to change it. Because
I'm not trans doesn't mean thatI don't believe in basic human
rights for everybody. So that'swhat started the podcast because
(52:56):
Meg Kelly on her podcast, mentalhealth status. It was about
saying, fuck your rules, becauseI was so burnt out, and I just
had had enough. And it's like,why is this rule because it's
always been rolled, fuck yourrules. And then I thought that's
gonna be my podcast, Doctorrules, because that's what I've
done for the last 30 years isthat I've broken out of all
(53:18):
those expectations, you know,and like I said, I'm not an
anarchist. I like having afunded police department that
protects property and persons.
Could there be improvements?
Absolutely. For everybody inthat regard. Right, right. But I
also like my roads beingrepaired. I like municipalities,
I like my water and myelectricity. And I like the
(53:39):
things that keep me safe. And Ilike environmental protections
being put into place because Ilike clean air and fresh water.
And I like being able to havethe opportunity to support
persons who want to go to eitherpublic or private education. I
mean, I like all those things.
But there are certain rules andtraditions that are sorry, cake,
and we're just doing it becausewe've always done it. Nobody's
(54:00):
examined it before, right. Andthere were persons I really
admired and respected thataren't doing the same old thing
according to whatever rule or orlaw or tradition or whatever.
And said, Fuck the rules. I'mgoing to do it this way. And
yeah, they may have stumbleddemain have had a hard time but
they're getting someplace andthey're happier, and they're
(54:21):
healthier for it. That's why Iwanted to start my podcast. And
that's, I'm in season two nowand I'm just about ready to
start dropping Season Two onJuly 12. But I am so lucky that
there are so many persons likeyourself that I hear your
podcast, I'm like Fuck yeah.
That's that's what we need to betalking about, which is why I
(54:42):
wanted to use one of my guestsbecause I like you. I listened
to your podcast and I find outinformation from you and your
guests that you have, which arephenomenal. And I just want to
make sure there's moreinformation for persons who are
going outside of the expectationthat's been layered on them. I
talked about that before I hadto peel that off of me because
they've been put on me byothers, right? I want people to
(55:03):
have that opportunity to to sayno, I gotta I gotta get this off
of me because that's not reallywho I am. This is who I feel.
And if you get that from mypodcast, and either from me or
from my guests that I have onand it resonates with you, and
you find a resource that allowsyou to continue to grow as a
human being so that you feelbetter and and your life feels
healthier to you. So be it.
Steve Bisson (55:24):
Well, I like your explanation I will share with
you my favorite podcast that youdid was with a former police
officer who became a works withthe mental health community. No,
Grayson, yes. I mean, names arenot friends, you obviously you
obviously saw that right awaywhen we started recording this.
But really, it was so nice tolisten to someone who has been
(55:47):
there done that and looking atit in a different light. And to
me whenever I listened to yourpodcast, I think you had your
want to say your son in law
Susan Roggendorf (55:57):
on it's either Steven or it was John. John is
the mountain climber Stevens,the scientists, the scientists.
Steve Bisson (56:04):
Yes. And bringing science into this shit is also
very important. And I reallyliked that when I could go on
and on. But this is just frombetween you and me. I think that
what you bring to the table alsois that you can be the swearing
therapist, fuck the rules, butalso have structure and both can
(56:25):
coexist. You don't have to be annr kiss. Or socialists you can
be somewhere in between and beable to flex depending on the
situation. I love my firstresponders, my last responders.
Do I want them to be more mentalhealth informed? Do I want them
to learn how to do thingsdifferently? Yes. Do I think
that mental health people whowork in the police first
(56:46):
responder, realm sheriff and allthat? Did they need to change
their fucking attitude? A littlebit? Yeah, damn right. And yet,
that's what I do for a living.
So I think that for me, youbring that balance of not taking
sides that I truly, truly
Susan Roggendorf (56:59):
appreciate.
Well, thank you. I try not to Imean, I'm trying to get as much
perspective in there. Although Ido take sides in the fact that I
believe all human beings shouldhave basic human rights, we and
that includes good health carethat's accessible for what's
needed. That is not dictated bya fucking insurance company that
is not dictated by thegovernment on what you're able
to access as a person based onyour socio economic level.
(57:22):
There's so many things that I dotake a site in, but the biggest
one is that human being shouldhave basic fucking human rights.
Beyond that, I try to bringother persons who have different
perspectives for mine, to seewhat they're thinking and what
they're doing to.
Steve Bisson (57:37):
I'll tell you why say that's not taking sides. I
just fucking logic if you askme. Taking any sides, it's like
I support LGB I don't think aside there. That's just fucking
logical to me. You want to helpfirst responders that's just
logical to me. There's nothere's not a side to be taken.
That's why I said you don't takesides.
Susan Roggendorf (57:56):
I think I think that that's I also know
that there are persons out therethat see it as taking sighs I'm
fine. Fuck it. I'm taking thesign. I'm taking a site for
human beings. There we go.
Steve Bisson (58:04):
Yeah, I feel like I'm going to a UU Church
suddenly. Tony, if you'relistening, and that was for you.
So anyway, I wanted to take youbecause it's already been an
hour went by. Oh my god. Youknow, one of the things that I
truly enjoyed, Susan is thatwe've had a few conversations
we've exchanged. It's always agreat conversation. I have a
(58:27):
couple of ideas that I wouldlove to have you back on at some
point because
Susan Roggendorf (58:31):
Absolutely, well, you're gonna become a back
on to my podcast. You're notgoing away that easy.
Steve Bisson (58:35):
I'm not believe me. i You tell me today in time,
probably that'd be kickback fromthis COVID Shit, then we'll go
from there. And I gotta get thatboard before we do that. But
that's right. But I wanted tothank you so much. Other than
your podcasts, how can peoplereach you or find you? You can
Susan Roggendorf (58:53):
always go to my website for my business. It's
co felt counseling services.comand cofell is spelled C O FFELT.
That is my grandmother's maidenname. And that's who I decided
to name my business after was tohonor her. She was my caregiver
and did a lot of good in theworld. I want her with that.
(59:14):
Another way is finding me onInstagram. I've got three
accounts. I've got the Cobellcounseling one. I've got the
sweaty therapist, and I've gotstuck the rules podcast. And
then you can find FUCK THE RULESpodcast on Spotify, Apple
podcasts, Amazon podcastsStitcher. A couple of other ones
I can't remember right now, but
Steve Bisson (59:34):
if I was brain, I Heart Radio, I'm sure and
Susan Roggendorf (59:37):
I think it's out there and I just Google it.
You'll find me.
Steve Bisson (59:44):
Well, Susan, I can't tell you how much I
appreciated our conversationtoday and I'll talk to you soon.
Susan Roggendorf (59:49):
Okay, thank you Steve for having me again.
It was wonderful conversation.
Steve Bisson (59:53):
Well, this concludes episode 58 of finding
your way through therapy SusanRogan Dorf, and I know I got it
right now. Thank you so much forthe interview really enjoyed it
talking a lot about differentthings including LGBTQ rights,
as well as other stuff,including the political side,
the social justice. I reallythink that it was a great
interview. Episode 59 will bewith Joe Riley. Jill is someone
(01:00:16):
I've been on her podcast.
Posttraumatic faith, and, youknow, seems like a theme right
now about podcasts, but I'mhoping that you join us for that
episode. Please like, subscribeor follow this podcast on your
favorite platform. A glowingreview is always helpful. And as
a reminder, this podcast is forinformation, educational, and
entertainment purposes. Ifyou're struggling with a mental
(01:00:39):
health or substance abuse issue,please reach out to a
professional counselor ortherapist for consultation.
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