November 2, 2023 • 30 mins
Wondering how Taylor Swift's music can intersect with the Gospel? Join our Pastors Lora East and Dave Carpenter, along with our music director, Nancy Reeves, unpack the surprising and insightful journey of our recent unconventional sermon series - the Gospel According to Taylor Swift. We'll shed light on why this series was chosen, the divine timing around it, and how it sparked deep, meaningful conversations within our worship community. In this faith-filled exploration, we'll also discuss the importance of embracing current pop culture phenomena like Taylor Swift's music to connect with the younger generation and make our services more relatable.
With new concepts come controversies, and we'll share how we navigated through these waters. But it's not all about challenges - we'll also look at the positive influence of integrating elements of modern culture into our faith discussions. Using themes from Taylor Swift's music as a springboard, we encourage dialogues that push boundaries, accept varying perspectives, and create space for discomfort - because growth often happens outside our comfort zones. We passionately believe that these conversations, although tough, have the potential to enrich our faith community's understanding and acceptance. So tune in to hear how our church, with its unique qualities, has become a welcoming space for people of all faith backgrounds and perspectives. Don't miss this episode, for it promises to be as enlightening as it is surprising.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Resilient Faith, the podcast.
Opportunities to find deeperresilience within ourselves can
come when life seems mostchallenging.
This podcast is to help youdevelop that resilience and
connection with God.
Being resilient and havingpower starts with faith.
(00:32):
Welcome, friends, to theResilient Faith podcast
sponsored by BrentwoodPresbyterian Church in West Los
Angeles.
We are sharing our sermons fromour recent series, the Gospel
(00:52):
According to Taylor Swift.
This was a six-week sermonseries in the fall of 2023.
It's important in this day andage to talk about current events
and pop culture in our worshipand be in dialogue with
Christian perspectives andscripture.
Using Taylor Swift's lyrics andsome of her songs as a
(01:15):
launching pad, we are discussingsome of the important issues
and looking through them with aChristian lens.
Thanks for listening and wepray that the Holy Spirit
reaches you through this series.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Hey everyone, welcome .
I'm Janice McQueen.
I'm so excited to be here.
I am the producer for theResilient Faith podcast and I'm
joined with my friends, pastorsLaura East and Dave Carpenter,
and friend Nancy Reeves, who'sour music director, and they are
just such wonderful people andI'm so excited to be part of
this faith community.
(01:52):
We're here today to talk aboutthe Gospel According to Taylor
Swift.
It's our new sermon series andI know that I'm excited.
But I wanted to first askeveryone's opinion about this
particular sermon series.
What is the reason that youchose this as a topic for a
sermon series?
Because it's a pretty excitingtopic.
(02:14):
Let's start with you, laura.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Okay, well, janice, thank you so much for bringing
us together, Thank you forproducing this podcast.
It has really been such a giftand a great form of outreach for
our community, and it's reallya pleasure to gather today and
have this conversation.
We have been talking about thisand been looking forward to it,
and it's an opportunity toreport back on what our
(02:40):
experience has been since welaunched this series and then
just completed it a week or twoago.
So this actually came up earlyin the year, maybe in April, and
Dave was going away onsabbatical this summer.
His family was going to be awayfor three months and so he
(03:03):
needed to do sermon planningwell before that.
And so in April he comes intomy office and he says so, any
ideas, any input, what would youlike to preach on?
He's so good at incorporatingme into these conversations and
saying what would you like topreach on this coming year?
What do you think?
(03:23):
And just kind of as a whim, Isaid, ooh, the gospel according
to Taylor Swift, and myrecollection.
I'd love to hear your versionof the story, but my
recollection of it is he goeshuh, yeah, now that could be fun
.
And I was like okay, but reallyokay, but really because we had
(03:47):
all just had this adventure inLA.
Well, taylor Swift fansworldwide, when the tickets for
the concert went to her concert,her Ares tour, when they all
went on sale in November,everybody had a story to tell,
if they tried to get tickets, onwhat that adventure was like,
and Dave and I were no different.
We had stories to tell ontrying to get tickets to the
(04:10):
Ares tour, and so it had been.
We had been discussing it thenfor a few months and the
excitement with the tour thatwas launching and that it was
coming to LA in August and allof that.
So just sort of saying, in afun, playful, kind of on a whim,
(04:31):
well, what if we did a TaylorSwift sermon series?
And then that that actually,you know, came to fruition and
we saw it through.
I mean, it was just so fun andso awesome in that way.
So that's my recollection ofhow it started.
Now I will say the timing waspurely a God thing, because she
(04:55):
had just been in LA for sixshows at the beginning of August
and we launched our series atthe very end of August, and so
the city was full on TaylorSwift fever and we couldn't have
even predicted that back inApril that that's the vibe of
the city, that we would all be,you know, taylor Swift mania, so
(05:17):
it really felt serendipitousand like a God thing that she
had just been here at thebeginning of August and then we
launched the series at the endof August.
And you know, they say timingis everything and I feel like
the timing for this was justperfect.
It wasn't too soon, it wasn'ttoo late, the timing was really
perfect for where the city was,where our community was, in
(05:40):
terms of her tour just finishingup the city, being crazy about
her, and that she was everywherein the media.
And then for us being able toincorporate that into our
worship just felt timely andrelevant and creative and fun
and quite an adventure.
(06:00):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
I know you're waiting to speak and I mean, we're all
big Swifties here.
Anyhow, we love her, but whychoose Taylor Swift as a sermon
series?
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Well, I think we probably first have to begin by
stepping back and justacknowledging that, while there
are some churches that aremainly about a personal
relationship with Jesus Christand saving souls and getting
people inside the church andkind of secluding themselves
from the rest of the world untilthey get to go to heaven, in
(06:35):
the reform faith and themainline denominations of which
the Presbyterian church is one,we've always been very clear
that we are called to be veryengaged in the community and
what's going on in the world, tobe very much at the front of
these conversations, and so Ithink it was Carl Bart who
originally said we need topreach with the newspaper in one
(06:58):
hand and the Bible in the otherand see how the Bible and our
faith relates to what'shappening, the bigger
conversations that are happeningaround the world.
And I don't know if there isany bigger global phenomenon
right now than Taylor Swift andall that she's causing us to
think about and talk aboutaround the world.
(07:18):
I know for myself.
I knew that my kids were bigSwifties and loved her music,
and so I started hearing thingsthrough them, but then, maybe
even more so, just saw theinfluence that she and her music
was having on them All of heradvocacy for people who are
marginalized and left on theoutside.
(07:38):
My kids were more confident.
My daughter was more confidentbecause of Taylor Swift.
They were starting to becomeconcerned about advocating for
those who are marginalized andpushed to the borders of our
society, and I just startedloving seeing some of the things
that Taylor Swift's music wasdoing in the lives of my
(07:59):
children, so I was becoming moreand more a Swiftie.
We got tickets for this concert,and what a concert it was.
But I would say that, more thananything else, we really do
need to be in the middle of theconversations that the world is
talking about, and I don't knowif there's anyone right now,
unfortunately, between the riftswe see in our politics around
(08:23):
the world and in our nation, therifts we see between faiths and
religion, I don't know ifthere's anyone who's uniting a
bigger swath of our planet rightnow than Taylor Swift, and so I
thought it was imperative forus to be engaged in the
conversations that she israising, and so it was a fun
chance for us to use some of hermusic and some of the issues
(08:45):
she's passionate about to comeand say okay, what is a
Christian approach?
What's the Christian view ofsome of these important topics
that the world is talking aboutright now?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Well, you mentioned, of course, she's a musician, and
very well known one.
So we have to get your opinionon the music part of it, annecy,
because I think that's a wholeother element that is brought
into the conversation whenyou're talking about the fact
that it's a musician.
That is part of the sermonseries.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
Well, yes, definitely .
You know we've used a lot ofpopular music styles within our
church.
You know, the contemporarymusic that we use is very much,
very similar to what Taylorsings and writes about, and so I
(09:35):
, when Dave and Laura came to meabout this idea, I thought to
myself.
Really that was my firstthought.
And then, the more I thoughtabout it, the more I thought
what a fun idea, what it bringssome levity.
You know, we're not all seriouschurch here.
(09:57):
This is a little bit fun.
We're bringing in popularculture and we need to meet
people where they are.
You know, people don't listento Gregorian chant, so they
don't.
They don't, I don't think.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
so that's not on the radio I do sometimes.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
No, I don't think it's trending on Spotify.
No, not at all.
Not at all.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
So I thought, you know, I just I love the idea and
I thought that this was a greatopportunity for us to do
something different and start aconversation that's a little bit
different, which is alwaysgreat.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
That's what I've always loved about this church,
for as long as I have been amember and part of this
community, is the fact that Ifeel we just opened the doors
for everyone, that everyone iswelcome, and that also means
you're welcoming in differentopinions and that's okay.
I think that conversation ishealthy.
It's very important nowadays totalk about how you feel, and I
(11:00):
know that having such a dynamicand modern topic allows people
to feel the lyrics that TaylorSwift writes, but also feel the
change that's happening in theworld.
But it also brings upconversation and it brings up
let's just say it criticism andcontroversy, and I think anytime
(11:24):
you're trying to change theworld, you're trying to make it
a better place and you're tryingto evolve as a person, you can
bring up controversy and you canbring up that conversation that
is difficult to have, and Idon't think that escaped us here
with Presbyterian Church.
So let's just open the floor.
I want you to chime in wheneveryou feel comfortable, but what
(11:48):
is some of the controversy thatyou have faced as a church
community?
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Well, yeah, we've had .
I would start by saying that,overwhelmingly, we have had
positive responses to this.
Our national church reached outto us and wanted to write an
article about it.
We had.
We were hoping that maybe someyoung people who haven't been to
church before would want tocome to hear what we had to say
about some of Taylor Swift'smusic, and that definitely
(12:17):
happened.
We had lots of young peoplefrom around our neighborhood.
We heard from parents who weresaying that their kids were
saying we have to go to churchthis Sunday because the church
on the corner is preaching aboutTaylor Swift.
And we've seen people aretaking stopping on the way to
the farmer's market to takepictures, and people coming back
from the farmer's market whostopped and came into the church
(12:38):
to see what we were doing.
And all of that is what we werehoping for.
And even our older generationmost of them were saying I don't
really know Taylor Swift or hermusic, but boy oh boy, this
seems to really be creating abuzz and it's fun.
The other thing I would say isthat I think there's some people
who felt like that we weresaying, oh, we believe
(13:03):
everything that Taylor Swiftsings about and says is that
we're holding her up as somesort of religious icon.
There are people who arecomplaining that we were
deifying Taylor Swift or that wewere bringing the entertainment
industry into the church, andso, again, I would need to be
(13:25):
really clear that we started theseries by saying, like, we
don't endorse everything thatTaylor Swift says or does, but
she's talking about importantissues that are important to our
whole world and we need to takea look and see what the Bible
says about these things, what wehave to say about these things,
who we were using her music asa launching pad.
I also think that there are somepeople who didn't realize that
(13:49):
this idea of the gospelaccording to so and so is a real
genre within the Christiancommunity.
There are books out there thegospel according to Bart Simpson
or Betty White, the gospelaccording to Vince Lombardi or
Garth Brooks and it doesn't meanthat any of these books or
sermon series or Bible studiesare endorsing everything that
(14:12):
these people say, but sayingthat they are relevant people
talking about important issuesin our world, and we want to use
that as a way to talk aboutthese issues and where we stand
on them, and so, yeah, so we'vehad some people who have
struggled with it a little bit,and we totally understand that,
(14:36):
but we really do believe thatthis is a chance for us to
engage with the things that theworld is talking about in a way
that brings the light of Christand faith and God and God's
kingdom to bear on theseimportant issues.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah, yeah.
I'll add to that that for themost part, even people for whom
this wasn't their favoriteseries or it didn't totally
resonate with them, there wasstill, overall, a very gracious
response that understood wherewe were coming from as the
(15:12):
worship leadership, thatrecognized what good it could do
in the community, that it couldbring some more people in, that
we could talk about Scriptureand faith and the love of God in
a unique and creative anddifferent way, and overall there
(15:33):
was a lot of graciousnessaround it that also said well,
it's only six weeks, so it's notforever, you know there will be
.
you know, we will eventuallymove on to something else, and
also a gracious response thatnot every sermon is for every
person, not every series is forevery person, but that's okay.
(15:57):
That's a part of being in acommunity, a part of trying to
reach different people who aregoing through different things
in life.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I mean I just I think anytime you try to change the
narrative it's a positive thing.
It's going to hopefully reachpeople that may not have thought
about church for a while orthought about coming into the
actual house of God for a while.
Maybe they're listening, but Ithink it's a great thing,
(16:28):
challenges and all, because hermusic and what she's gone
through as a person we canrelate to, no matter what her
generation is, and I see her assomeone who's very resilient,
which is perfect for thispodcast.
Of course she's very resilient.
She's gone through a lot and shesings about it, as most great
musicians do.
They write about it and theysing about it.
(16:49):
Right, but you had another.
You had another thought.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Well, so sort of on that note, thinking about
conflict or controversy or thefact that on everybody would
agree on everything that we sayor do at church is kind of built
into the cake of Christiancommunity, of faith community
and we kept posing the questionis it okay to be uncomfortable
in church?
And what's the purpose ofworship?
(17:20):
Is it always to be comfortable?
Is it always to feel like youknow everything that's going on
and you agree with everythingthat's being said?
Well, probably not.
And so it's okay to beuncomfortable in worship.
It's okay to not agree witheverything that's said, because
(17:40):
that's to me that's informationabout our own faith, our own
beliefs, our own experience.
Wow, I didn't really like that,or it didn't resonate with me,
or I didn't really agree withthat.
Why is that?
What nerve is that touching, orwhat belief is that challenging
, or what perspective do I havethat's different on that, and
(18:04):
where does that come from?
So I think it's also anopportunity to have those
conversations and to acknowledgesometimes we're uncomfortable
in worship and that's okay.
That's a part of it.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
And I think that when you give people that
opportunity to look at somethingthat's different from what they
normally look at, tv radio, ofcourse radio is out with young
people, it's podcasting,podcasting.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Podcasting Showing my age Podcasting.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
But you expand your world and expand your mind and
you learn new things, and Ithink that that's what this
series has brought about too.
It's like I wasn't really aSwifty, but I think I am now.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
It speaks and I can hear her songs when they come on
the radio, so that's good and Iwould add to all of that to say
that since long before Iarrived here, bpc has always
considered itself a big tent,and it's a place where we have a
lot of different people, peoplewho are just beginning to
(19:21):
explore faith, people who'vebeen part of the church since
the day they were born moreconservative, more liberal, more
evangelical, morequasi-agnostic.
We have a large spectrum ofpeople and we are a church.
When people leave here, theyoften try to find another church
like ours, and they can't, andI know that since the time I got
(19:43):
to know BPC long before I wasever here I felt that same way
about BPC.
We often say to people this isnot your parents' Presbyterian
church.
Or we say wherever you are oraren't on your faith journey,
there is a place for you.
You are welcome here, and sowe've never shied away from
talking about the real issuesthat the world is talking about,
(20:07):
and so there's gonna be somecontroversy just in talking
about women's issues and theglass ceiling and women's rights
and misogyny.
There's going to be controversytalking about the gay community
and LGBTQIA plus rights, andthese are important issues that
are at the forefront of ournation right now.
(20:27):
Talking about mental healthissues and depression.
These are never going to beeasy things to talk about, but
one of the things I'm most proudabout our church is it is never
backed away from wading intothese important issues.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
That's an important thing to say too.
I think that's.
I think this is what thethought that came to me as you
guys were talking is that Ithink Taylor Swift because she's
here, she's alive.
Most of the time the church istalking about the scripture.
They're talking about thingsthat happened in the past and
how we've learned from that andhow we take real life into
account from what's happened inthe past and how God leads us.
(21:04):
But she's very current.
She's alive now, she is livingnow, she is making statements
now, she's going through thingsnow and it is a trigger for so
many people from the things thatshe talks about, the things
that she's gone through.
It is a trigger for many people, especially after what we've
lived through the past few years, and I think it's important to
(21:26):
talk about it because it doesallow us to grow.
Everything that you've said isallows us to evolve and grow,
and the church should talk aboutthat.
We should be current.
I think the church should maybeopen that store just a little
bit so that it heals a littlebit better.
So I love the fact that you'reconstantly thinking about unique
ways to engage with everyone,regardless of where they are on
(21:52):
their faith journey.
I know for a fact I've neverfound a church that I love as
much as Brentwood.
There's just something specialabout this church and the
community and the people, and Ihope that you hear some of that
in the podcast and continuelistening through its evolution
and also visit our church asmuch as you can, especially when
(22:14):
you're here in Los Angeles.
But I have to end on a fun note, because Taylor Swift is such a
wonderful musician.
What is your favorite song?
Let's start with you, nancy.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
Well, from the series that I think, for what I know
of Taylor, I think it was Shakeit Off.
It's such a fun song, but italso tells us, whatever other
people are talking about youjust shake it off, that's okay.
Just be yourself and be theperson that God has created.
(22:51):
You are perfect the way you are.
I like that.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Why don't I go next?
Because I'll build on Nancy'sto say that Shake it Off was
probably the one that reallyhooked me when I was watching my
kids and their reaction toTaylor Swift.
There is a section and we also.
We played the videos becausesometimes the videos go much
further than just the lyrics ofthe music does.
(23:18):
And Shake it Off is kind ofabout her and the journey she's
been through and how she justneeds to let go of some of the
criticism she's gotten.
But there's a whole section atthe end of this video where it's
just normal kids of every shape, size and color, some who seem
so awkward and uncoordinated,and they are dancing like
(23:39):
nobody's watching.
They're just going crazy,letting loose, being themselves,
and it really drives home thisidea that God has created you in
the Amago Day exactly as youare, to be who you are and you
don't need to worry about whatanyone else think-sur-sets about
you.
And I saw that getting into theblood of my children and them
(24:01):
taking that on and it was suchit made me so happy for them and
so grateful to Taylor Swift.
But the other one I would sayis I loved preaching about you
need to calm down and LGBTQIAplus rights.
And you know, in my ownevolution I think I've always
been, I've always cared a lotabout this issue.
(24:23):
But just seeing the way thatsociety is changing, my own
views are evolving some of mymost conservative friends to see
how their views and ideas andtheir eyes are opening and
they're seeing new perspectives.
I just to me it's an anthem andI loved that video and I loved
(24:44):
preaching about it.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I thought it might be good for you to finish this off
as our resident Swifty, I know.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Well, I'm wearing two Taylor Swift friendship
bracelets right now that thepodcast cannot see, but one of
them is our song, which is thefirst song that Taylor put out
on the radio that I heard.
I still remember where I wasthe first time I heard this song
, in 2007.
And I was hooked at that point.
(25:13):
So that's like my OG favoritesong.
But my other favorite song isI'm going to answer this in
three parts, okay, my otherfavorite song is All Too Well.
So I always say her red albumgot me through my first year in
seminary.
So I shared this with ourcongregation at some point I
(25:36):
said I am here as your pastorbecause of the Taylor Swift red
album, because that album got methrough my first year in
seminary.
But what I love about the songAll Too Well is it's really this
song about bearing witness towhat happened and what was, and
(26:00):
my friendship bracelet says Iwas there.
And there is this essence ofbearing witness to our lives,
bearing witness to ourrelationships, to our heartache,
to our joys, to our start, allof it.
Bearing witness to what ourlife experience is and saying I
was there, I remember it, Iremember it all too well.
(26:23):
But there's an act of, I think,real grace that comes in when
we bear witness to each other'slives, when we bear witness to
the good news of Jesus Christ,when we are able to walk
alongside one another and say Iwas there when that happened or
you were there for me when thathappened, or just acknowledging
(26:45):
that life is hard and we needone another and we need
community and we really need ourfaith to get us through.
So that's my second answer.
My third answer from the series,at least I think, is antihero,
because in some ways we could doan entire series on depression
(27:07):
and mental health and lonelinessand that epidemic that we have,
that pandemic that we have ofloneliness and mental health
issues and depression andanxiety.
I felt like I could really onlybarely scratch the surface.
But the way that that one songtalks about body issues and
(27:30):
insecurity and not feeling likeyou belong and being depressed
and being lonely and feelinglike you're all alone in this
world and not having anybody,that is just so heartbreakingly
real and true for so many peoplethat it can be talk about
facing things that are hard,that can be really hard to talk
(27:56):
about.
That's not a cheery topic butit's so important.
So many of our young people inour community talk about that.
We have folks who work inschools and it comes up in high
school, it comes up with collegekids.
It's just so prevalent and sodiscussing that, I think, is so
(28:16):
important.
So those are my three favoritesongs at least an answer to your
question right now.
If you ask me tomorrow, I mighthave a different answer.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
No, I appreciate that very much.
I wasn't always a Swiftie.
I loved her music, but I think Ireally, really converted
hearing the stories of peoplethat went to her concert and I
wasn't able to get tickets and Iso hate that I didn't get a
chance to see her live and I'vejust heard so many wonderful
(28:46):
things about her ability topersevere and just to work so
hard and to believe ineverything that she says and
does.
And she's an imperfect, aperfect person, like all of us
are, and I think that is someoneto talk about and that's what
we did.
We talked about her, and I lovethis church for always looking
(29:08):
for topics that make us thinkand make us so relevant and
uncomfortable and, ultimately,part of the community.
And if you're listening and youfeel any of these things that
you need to have a community andyou need to reach out, we are
here for you.
So I want you to know thatthat's why we do this podcast is
(29:28):
because we care about youwherever you live, and we hope
that you'll come visit us andreach out to us really soon.
Thanks, dave, thanks.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Thank you, this has been great.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
It's always so wonderful to see you and talk
with you and everyone.
Please listen to this sermonseries.
There's so much more to come.
We're so excited to have youhere and we're just grateful for
you.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Thank you, janice.
You've been listening toResilient Faith.
The podcast Resilient Faith issponsored by Brentwood
Presbyterian Church in West LosAngeles.
You can follow our church andthis podcast on Facebook at BPC
team and Instagram at BPCunderscore USA.
(30:13):
Make sure to subscribe on yourfavorite podcast platform and
thanks for listening.
Welcome to Resilient Faith, the podcast.
Opportunities to find deeperresilience within ourselves can
come when life seems mostchallenging.
This podcast is to help youdevelop that resilience and
connection with God.
Being resilient and havingpower starts with faith.
(00:32):
Welcome, friends, to theResilient Faith podcast
sponsored by BrentwoodPresbyterian Church in West Los
Angeles.
We are sharing our sermons fromour recent series, the Gospel
(00:52):
According to Taylor Swift.
This was a six-week sermonseries in the fall of 2023.
It's important in this day andage to talk about current events
and pop culture in our worshipand be in dialogue with
Christian perspectives andscripture.
Using Taylor Swift's lyrics andsome of her songs as a
(01:15):
launching pad, we are discussingsome of the important issues
and looking through them with aChristian lens.
Thanks for listening and wepray that the Holy Spirit
reaches you through this series.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Hey everyone, welcome .
I'm Janice McQueen.
I'm so excited to be here.
I am the producer for theResilient Faith podcast and I'm
joined with my friends, pastorsLaura East and Dave Carpenter,
and friend Nancy Reeves, who'sour music director, and they are
just such wonderful people andI'm so excited to be part of
this faith community.
(01:52):
We're here today to talk aboutthe Gospel According to Taylor
Swift.
It's our new sermon series andI know that I'm excited.
But I wanted to first askeveryone's opinion about this
particular sermon series.
What is the reason that youchose this as a topic for a
sermon series?
Because it's a pretty excitingtopic.
(02:14):
Let's start with you, laura.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Okay, well, janice, thank you so much for bringing
us together, Thank you forproducing this podcast.
It has really been such a giftand a great form of outreach for
our community, and it's reallya pleasure to gather today and
have this conversation.
We have been talking about thisand been looking forward to it,
and it's an opportunity toreport back on what our
(02:40):
experience has been since welaunched this series and then
just completed it a week or twoago.
So this actually came up earlyin the year, maybe in April, and
Dave was going away onsabbatical this summer.
His family was going to be awayfor three months and so he
(03:03):
needed to do sermon planningwell before that.
And so in April he comes intomy office and he says so, any
ideas, any input, what would youlike to preach on?
He's so good at incorporatingme into these conversations and
saying what would you like topreach on this coming year?
What do you think?
(03:23):
And just kind of as a whim, Isaid, ooh, the gospel according
to Taylor Swift, and myrecollection.
I'd love to hear your versionof the story, but my
recollection of it is he goeshuh, yeah, now that could be fun
.
And I was like okay, but reallyokay, but really because we had
(03:47):
all just had this adventure inLA.
Well, taylor Swift fansworldwide, when the tickets for
the concert went to her concert,her Ares tour, when they all
went on sale in November,everybody had a story to tell,
if they tried to get tickets, onwhat that adventure was like,
and Dave and I were no different.
We had stories to tell ontrying to get tickets to the
(04:10):
Ares tour, and so it had been.
We had been discussing it thenfor a few months and the
excitement with the tour thatwas launching and that it was
coming to LA in August and allof that.
So just sort of saying, in afun, playful, kind of on a whim,
(04:31):
well, what if we did a TaylorSwift sermon series?
And then that that actually,you know, came to fruition and
we saw it through.
I mean, it was just so fun andso awesome in that way.
So that's my recollection ofhow it started.
Now I will say the timing waspurely a God thing, because she
(04:55):
had just been in LA for sixshows at the beginning of August
and we launched our series atthe very end of August, and so
the city was full on TaylorSwift fever and we couldn't have
even predicted that back inApril that that's the vibe of
the city, that we would all be,you know, taylor Swift mania, so
(05:17):
it really felt serendipitousand like a God thing that she
had just been here at thebeginning of August and then we
launched the series at the endof August.
And you know, they say timingis everything and I feel like
the timing for this was justperfect.
It wasn't too soon, it wasn'ttoo late, the timing was really
perfect for where the city was,where our community was, in
(05:40):
terms of her tour just finishingup the city, being crazy about
her, and that she was everywherein the media.
And then for us being able toincorporate that into our
worship just felt timely andrelevant and creative and fun
and quite an adventure.
(06:00):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
I know you're waiting to speak and I mean, we're all
big Swifties here.
Anyhow, we love her, but whychoose Taylor Swift as a sermon
series?
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Well, I think we probably first have to begin by
stepping back and justacknowledging that, while there
are some churches that aremainly about a personal
relationship with Jesus Christand saving souls and getting
people inside the church andkind of secluding themselves
from the rest of the world untilthey get to go to heaven, in
(06:35):
the reform faith and themainline denominations of which
the Presbyterian church is one,we've always been very clear
that we are called to be veryengaged in the community and
what's going on in the world, tobe very much at the front of
these conversations, and so Ithink it was Carl Bart who
originally said we need topreach with the newspaper in one
(06:58):
hand and the Bible in the otherand see how the Bible and our
faith relates to what'shappening, the bigger
conversations that are happeningaround the world.
And I don't know if there isany bigger global phenomenon
right now than Taylor Swift andall that she's causing us to
think about and talk aboutaround the world.
(07:18):
I know for myself.
I knew that my kids were bigSwifties and loved her music,
and so I started hearing thingsthrough them, but then, maybe
even more so, just saw theinfluence that she and her music
was having on them All of heradvocacy for people who are
marginalized and left on theoutside.
(07:38):
My kids were more confident.
My daughter was more confidentbecause of Taylor Swift.
They were starting to becomeconcerned about advocating for
those who are marginalized andpushed to the borders of our
society, and I just startedloving seeing some of the things
that Taylor Swift's music wasdoing in the lives of my
(07:59):
children, so I was becoming moreand more a Swiftie.
We got tickets for this concert,and what a concert it was.
But I would say that, more thananything else, we really do
need to be in the middle of theconversations that the world is
talking about, and I don't knowif there's anyone right now,
unfortunately, between the riftswe see in our politics around
(08:23):
the world and in our nation, therifts we see between faiths and
religion, I don't know ifthere's anyone who's uniting a
bigger swath of our planet rightnow than Taylor Swift, and so I
thought it was imperative forus to be engaged in the
conversations that she israising, and so it was a fun
chance for us to use some of hermusic and some of the issues
(08:45):
she's passionate about to comeand say okay, what is a
Christian approach?
What's the Christian view ofsome of these important topics
that the world is talking aboutright now?
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Well, you mentioned, of course, she's a musician, and
very well known one.
So we have to get your opinionon the music part of it, annecy,
because I think that's a wholeother element that is brought
into the conversation whenyou're talking about the fact
that it's a musician.
That is part of the sermonseries.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
Well, yes, definitely .
You know we've used a lot ofpopular music styles within our
church.
You know, the contemporarymusic that we use is very much,
very similar to what Taylorsings and writes about, and so I
(09:35):
, when Dave and Laura came to meabout this idea, I thought to
myself.
Really that was my firstthought.
And then, the more I thoughtabout it, the more I thought
what a fun idea, what it bringssome levity.
You know, we're not all seriouschurch here.
(09:57):
This is a little bit fun.
We're bringing in popularculture and we need to meet
people where they are.
You know, people don't listento Gregorian chant, so they
don't.
They don't, I don't think.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
so that's not on the radio I do sometimes.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
No, I don't think it's trending on Spotify.
No, not at all.
Not at all.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
So I thought, you know, I just I love the idea and
I thought that this was a greatopportunity for us to do
something different and start aconversation that's a little bit
different, which is alwaysgreat.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
That's what I've always loved about this church,
for as long as I have been amember and part of this
community, is the fact that Ifeel we just opened the doors
for everyone, that everyone iswelcome, and that also means
you're welcoming in differentopinions and that's okay.
I think that conversation ishealthy.
It's very important nowadays totalk about how you feel, and I
(11:00):
know that having such a dynamicand modern topic allows people
to feel the lyrics that TaylorSwift writes, but also feel the
change that's happening in theworld.
But it also brings upconversation and it brings up
let's just say it criticism andcontroversy, and I think anytime
(11:24):
you're trying to change theworld, you're trying to make it
a better place and you're tryingto evolve as a person, you can
bring up controversy and you canbring up that conversation that
is difficult to have, and Idon't think that escaped us here
with Presbyterian Church.
So let's just open the floor.
I want you to chime in wheneveryou feel comfortable, but what
(11:48):
is some of the controversy thatyou have faced as a church
community?
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Well, yeah, we've had .
I would start by saying that,overwhelmingly, we have had
positive responses to this.
Our national church reached outto us and wanted to write an
article about it.
We had.
We were hoping that maybe someyoung people who haven't been to
church before would want tocome to hear what we had to say
about some of Taylor Swift'smusic, and that definitely
(12:17):
happened.
We had lots of young peoplefrom around our neighborhood.
We heard from parents who weresaying that their kids were
saying we have to go to churchthis Sunday because the church
on the corner is preaching aboutTaylor Swift.
And we've seen people aretaking stopping on the way to
the farmer's market to takepictures, and people coming back
from the farmer's market whostopped and came into the church
(12:38):
to see what we were doing.
And all of that is what we werehoping for.
And even our older generationmost of them were saying I don't
really know Taylor Swift or hermusic, but boy oh boy, this
seems to really be creating abuzz and it's fun.
The other thing I would say isthat I think there's some people
who felt like that we weresaying, oh, we believe
(13:03):
everything that Taylor Swiftsings about and says is that
we're holding her up as somesort of religious icon.
There are people who arecomplaining that we were
deifying Taylor Swift or that wewere bringing the entertainment
industry into the church, andso, again, I would need to be
(13:25):
really clear that we started theseries by saying, like, we
don't endorse everything thatTaylor Swift says or does, but
she's talking about importantissues that are important to our
whole world and we need to takea look and see what the Bible
says about these things, what wehave to say about these things,
who we were using her music asa launching pad.
I also think that there are somepeople who didn't realize that
(13:49):
this idea of the gospelaccording to so and so is a real
genre within the Christiancommunity.
There are books out there thegospel according to Bart Simpson
or Betty White, the gospelaccording to Vince Lombardi or
Garth Brooks and it doesn't meanthat any of these books or
sermon series or Bible studiesare endorsing everything that
(14:12):
these people say, but sayingthat they are relevant people
talking about important issuesin our world, and we want to use
that as a way to talk aboutthese issues and where we stand
on them, and so, yeah, so we'vehad some people who have
struggled with it a little bit,and we totally understand that,
(14:36):
but we really do believe thatthis is a chance for us to
engage with the things that theworld is talking about in a way
that brings the light of Christand faith and God and God's
kingdom to bear on theseimportant issues.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah, yeah.
I'll add to that that for themost part, even people for whom
this wasn't their favoriteseries or it didn't totally
resonate with them, there wasstill, overall, a very gracious
response that understood wherewe were coming from as the
(15:12):
worship leadership, thatrecognized what good it could do
in the community, that it couldbring some more people in, that
we could talk about Scriptureand faith and the love of God in
a unique and creative anddifferent way, and overall there
(15:33):
was a lot of graciousnessaround it that also said well,
it's only six weeks, so it's notforever, you know there will be
.
you know, we will eventuallymove on to something else, and
also a gracious response thatnot every sermon is for every
person, not every series is forevery person, but that's okay.
(15:57):
That's a part of being in acommunity, a part of trying to
reach different people who aregoing through different things
in life.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
I mean I just I think anytime you try to change the
narrative it's a positive thing.
It's going to hopefully reachpeople that may not have thought
about church for a while orthought about coming into the
actual house of God for a while.
Maybe they're listening, but Ithink it's a great thing,
(16:28):
challenges and all, because hermusic and what she's gone
through as a person we canrelate to, no matter what her
generation is, and I see her assomeone who's very resilient,
which is perfect for thispodcast.
Of course she's very resilient.
She's gone through a lot and shesings about it, as most great
musicians do.
They write about it and theysing about it.
(16:49):
Right, but you had another.
You had another thought.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Well, so sort of on that note, thinking about
conflict or controversy or thefact that on everybody would
agree on everything that we sayor do at church is kind of built
into the cake of Christiancommunity, of faith community
and we kept posing the questionis it okay to be uncomfortable
in church?
And what's the purpose ofworship?
(17:20):
Is it always to be comfortable?
Is it always to feel like youknow everything that's going on
and you agree with everythingthat's being said?
Well, probably not.
And so it's okay to beuncomfortable in worship.
It's okay to not agree witheverything that's said, because
(17:40):
that's to me that's informationabout our own faith, our own
beliefs, our own experience.
Wow, I didn't really like that,or it didn't resonate with me,
or I didn't really agree withthat.
Why is that?
What nerve is that touching, orwhat belief is that challenging
, or what perspective do I havethat's different on that, and
(18:04):
where does that come from?
So I think it's also anopportunity to have those
conversations and to acknowledgesometimes we're uncomfortable
in worship and that's okay.
That's a part of it.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
And I think that when you give people that
opportunity to look at somethingthat's different from what they
normally look at, tv radio, ofcourse radio is out with young
people, it's podcasting,podcasting.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Podcasting Showing my age Podcasting.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
But you expand your world and expand your mind and
you learn new things, and Ithink that that's what this
series has brought about too.
It's like I wasn't really aSwifty, but I think I am now.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
It speaks and I can hear her songs when they come on
the radio, so that's good and Iwould add to all of that to say
that since long before Iarrived here, bpc has always
considered itself a big tent,and it's a place where we have a
lot of different people, peoplewho are just beginning to
(19:21):
explore faith, people who'vebeen part of the church since
the day they were born moreconservative, more liberal, more
evangelical, morequasi-agnostic.
We have a large spectrum ofpeople and we are a church.
When people leave here, theyoften try to find another church
like ours, and they can't, andI know that since the time I got
(19:43):
to know BPC long before I wasever here I felt that same way
about BPC.
We often say to people this isnot your parents' Presbyterian
church.
Or we say wherever you are oraren't on your faith journey,
there is a place for you.
You are welcome here, and sowe've never shied away from
talking about the real issuesthat the world is talking about,
(20:07):
and so there's gonna be somecontroversy just in talking
about women's issues and theglass ceiling and women's rights
and misogyny.
There's going to be controversytalking about the gay community
and LGBTQIA plus rights, andthese are important issues that
are at the forefront of ournation right now.
(20:27):
Talking about mental healthissues and depression.
These are never going to beeasy things to talk about, but
one of the things I'm most proudabout our church is it is never
backed away from wading intothese important issues.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
That's an important thing to say too.
I think that's.
I think this is what thethought that came to me as you
guys were talking is that Ithink Taylor Swift because she's
here, she's alive.
Most of the time the church istalking about the scripture.
They're talking about thingsthat happened in the past and
how we've learned from that andhow we take real life into
account from what's happened inthe past and how God leads us.
(21:04):
But she's very current.
She's alive now, she is livingnow, she is making statements
now, she's going through thingsnow and it is a trigger for so
many people from the things thatshe talks about, the things
that she's gone through.
It is a trigger for many people, especially after what we've
lived through the past few years, and I think it's important to
(21:26):
talk about it because it doesallow us to grow.
Everything that you've said isallows us to evolve and grow,
and the church should talk aboutthat.
We should be current.
I think the church should maybeopen that store just a little
bit so that it heals a littlebit better.
So I love the fact that you'reconstantly thinking about unique
ways to engage with everyone,regardless of where they are on
(21:52):
their faith journey.
I know for a fact I've neverfound a church that I love as
much as Brentwood.
There's just something specialabout this church and the
community and the people, and Ihope that you hear some of that
in the podcast and continuelistening through its evolution
and also visit our church asmuch as you can, especially when
(22:14):
you're here in Los Angeles.
But I have to end on a fun note, because Taylor Swift is such a
wonderful musician.
What is your favorite song?
Let's start with you, nancy.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
Well, from the series that I think, for what I know
of Taylor, I think it was Shakeit Off.
It's such a fun song, but italso tells us, whatever other
people are talking about youjust shake it off, that's okay.
Just be yourself and be theperson that God has created.
(22:51):
You are perfect the way you are.
I like that.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Why don't I go next?
Because I'll build on Nancy'sto say that Shake it Off was
probably the one that reallyhooked me when I was watching my
kids and their reaction toTaylor Swift.
There is a section and we also.
We played the videos becausesometimes the videos go much
further than just the lyrics ofthe music does.
(23:18):
And Shake it Off is kind ofabout her and the journey she's
been through and how she justneeds to let go of some of the
criticism she's gotten.
But there's a whole section atthe end of this video where it's
just normal kids of every shape, size and color, some who seem
so awkward and uncoordinated,and they are dancing like
(23:39):
nobody's watching.
They're just going crazy,letting loose, being themselves,
and it really drives home thisidea that God has created you in
the Amago Day exactly as youare, to be who you are and you
don't need to worry about whatanyone else think-sur-sets about
you.
And I saw that getting into theblood of my children and them
(24:01):
taking that on and it was suchit made me so happy for them and
so grateful to Taylor Swift.
But the other one I would sayis I loved preaching about you
need to calm down and LGBTQIAplus rights.
And you know, in my ownevolution I think I've always
been, I've always cared a lotabout this issue.
(24:23):
But just seeing the way thatsociety is changing, my own
views are evolving some of mymost conservative friends to see
how their views and ideas andtheir eyes are opening and
they're seeing new perspectives.
I just to me it's an anthem andI loved that video and I loved
(24:44):
preaching about it.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I thought it might be good for you to finish this off
as our resident Swifty, I know.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Well, I'm wearing two Taylor Swift friendship
bracelets right now that thepodcast cannot see, but one of
them is our song, which is thefirst song that Taylor put out
on the radio that I heard.
I still remember where I wasthe first time I heard this song
, in 2007.
And I was hooked at that point.
(25:13):
So that's like my OG favoritesong.
But my other favorite song isI'm going to answer this in
three parts, okay, my otherfavorite song is All Too Well.
So I always say her red albumgot me through my first year in
seminary.
So I shared this with ourcongregation at some point I
(25:36):
said I am here as your pastorbecause of the Taylor Swift red
album, because that album got methrough my first year in
seminary.
But what I love about the songAll Too Well is it's really this
song about bearing witness towhat happened and what was, and
(26:00):
my friendship bracelet says Iwas there.
And there is this essence ofbearing witness to our lives,
bearing witness to ourrelationships, to our heartache,
to our joys, to our start, allof it.
Bearing witness to what ourlife experience is and saying I
was there, I remember it, Iremember it all too well.
(26:23):
But there's an act of, I think,real grace that comes in when
we bear witness to each other'slives, when we bear witness to
the good news of Jesus Christ,when we are able to walk
alongside one another and say Iwas there when that happened or
you were there for me when thathappened, or just acknowledging
(26:45):
that life is hard and we needone another and we need
community and we really need ourfaith to get us through.
So that's my second answer.
My third answer from the series,at least I think, is antihero,
because in some ways we could doan entire series on depression
(27:07):
and mental health and lonelinessand that epidemic that we have,
that pandemic that we have ofloneliness and mental health
issues and depression andanxiety.
I felt like I could really onlybarely scratch the surface.
But the way that that one songtalks about body issues and
(27:30):
insecurity and not feeling likeyou belong and being depressed
and being lonely and feelinglike you're all alone in this
world and not having anybody,that is just so heartbreakingly
real and true for so many peoplethat it can be talk about
facing things that are hard,that can be really hard to talk
(27:56):
about.
That's not a cheery topic butit's so important.
So many of our young people inour community talk about that.
We have folks who work inschools and it comes up in high
school, it comes up with collegekids.
It's just so prevalent and sodiscussing that, I think, is so
(28:16):
important.
So those are my three favoritesongs at least an answer to your
question right now.
If you ask me tomorrow, I mighthave a different answer.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
No, I appreciate that very much.
I wasn't always a Swiftie.
I loved her music, but I think Ireally, really converted
hearing the stories of peoplethat went to her concert and I
wasn't able to get tickets and Iso hate that I didn't get a
chance to see her live and I'vejust heard so many wonderful
(28:46):
things about her ability topersevere and just to work so
hard and to believe ineverything that she says and
does.
And she's an imperfect, aperfect person, like all of us
are, and I think that is someoneto talk about and that's what
we did.
We talked about her, and I lovethis church for always looking
(29:08):
for topics that make us thinkand make us so relevant and
uncomfortable and, ultimately,part of the community.
And if you're listening and youfeel any of these things that
you need to have a community andyou need to reach out, we are
here for you.
So I want you to know thatthat's why we do this podcast is
(29:28):
because we care about youwherever you live, and we hope
that you'll come visit us andreach out to us really soon.
Thanks, dave, thanks.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Thank you, this has been great.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
It's always so wonderful to see you and talk
with you and everyone.
Please listen to this sermonseries.
There's so much more to come.
We're so excited to have youhere and we're just grateful for
you.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Thank you, janice.
You've been listening toResilient Faith.
The podcast Resilient Faith issponsored by Brentwood
Presbyterian Church in West LosAngeles.
You can follow our church andthis podcast on Facebook at BPC
team and Instagram at BPCunderscore USA.
(30:13):
Make sure to subscribe on yourfavorite podcast platform and
thanks for listening.
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