November 15, 2024 • 36 mins
Tune in to the latest episode of Retail Intel with host Brian Sheehan, our Director of National Accounts, and special guest Bennett Maxwell, Chairman of Dirty Dough. Discover how Dirty Dough is shaking up the cookie game with their super-stuffed cookie bombs! From unique processes to the sweet secrets behind their growth, you don't want to miss this episode!
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Episode Transcript
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Brian Sheehan (00:04):
Welcome to Retail Intel, the podcast where we
dive deep into the dynamic worldof commercial real estate.
I'm your host, brian Sheehan,and I'm thrilled to be your
guide on this journey throughthe bustling streets of retail,
the aisles of shopping centersand the world of commercial
property investment.
With me today is BennettMaxwell, founder of Dirty Dough.
(00:25):
Bennett has an inspiring storyof entrepreneurship and
innovation in the retail space.
Dirty Dough is known for itsdelicious stuffed cookies that
have taken the market by storm.
Bennett and his team havecreated a unique brand that
combines indulgence withcreativity.
I'm excited to learn more abouthis journey and the story
(00:47):
behind what's powering thegrowth of Dirty Dough.
Bennett, welcome.
How are you?
Bennett Maxwell (00:52):
I'm doing really good, brian.
Thanks, how are you doing?
Brian Sheehan (00:54):
Excellent, so I'd love to start with your
background.
Can you tell us more about yourcareer journey and what led you
to start Dirty Dough?
Bennett Maxwell (01:03):
Yeah, background is in sales.
I did Cutco Knives right out ofhigh school for a few months,
got some amazing training on howto ask for referrals and
unapologetically Then I went ona two-year Mormon mission to
Tijuana, mexico, which is twomore years of sales.
Came home.
I grew up in Utah and, becauseof the Mormon culture here and
(01:25):
so many missionaries, you haveall the largest door-to-door
companies in the world in Provo,utah, right next to Brigham
Young University.
So you get home from yourmission and you have like 10
people trying to recruit you.
So you're not applying anywhere.
You're like trying to negotiatea better pay.
You feel like a hotshot.
Anyway, I got into that, didthat for five years.
Every year I transitionedindustries.
(01:47):
I did pest control, then Ichanged to satellite direct TV,
smart home systems, solar, andthen solar was the best out of
all of them.
I loved them all and then Istarted a solar company with my
brother.
This was just in 2020.
We ran it only for 18 months,sold it.
I purchased Dirty Dough when itwas one store at the beginning
(02:08):
of 2021 with the intent tofranchise it.
So a lot of sales.
I think that's the mostvaluable skill that you need in
business.
Maybe not sales, but persuasion, communication, however you
want to call it.
So yeah, that kind of led me upinto Dirty Dough.
I've been running that for thelast three years.
Just until last month I soldout to Craveworthy Brands out of
(02:28):
Chicago.
It's a restaurant portfoliocompany.
We partnered with them at thebeginning of the year and they
fixed all my many mistakes.
I mean not all of them, theyhaven't fixed them all.
They fixed most of my manymistakes that I've done.
So I got the company up.
We've opened up 80 stores inthe last two years We've sold
450 franchises.
But I'm not the guy to fulfillon that.
I know my limits.
And working in a restaurant andmanaging and hiring I mean I
(02:51):
suck at hiring people.
So that kind of fast forwardsme to where I'm at today.
Brian Sheehan (02:56):
Well, that's such an incredible background One.
I didn't realize that we have ashared background in solar.
I didn't know.
You did solar Sweet, and I kindof want to come back to that in
a second.
So, thinking back to when youwere looking at different types
of businesses to acquire, togrow, what was it that attracted
you to Dirty Dill?
(03:17):
How'd you know about them?
What made you think you knowyou could turn that into 450
units?
Bennett Maxwell (03:22):
Yeah, I mean, I didn't ever think I could.
My goal was to open up 30stores in five years.
That was the goal and I wouldhave been happy with that goal.
I'm sure I wasn't looking for abusiness to buy.
I'm always interested in, youknow, investing whatever.
I've invested in some cryptosand a handful of real estate
properties, and I just listenedto a podcast that said true
wealth is built by investinginto real estate, and I'm kind
(03:44):
of like check, at least you knowsome real estate and buying
businesses.
Well, I'd never consideredbuying a business.
Within a few weeks of thathappening, I found out that
Dirty Dough was wanting to sell.
How I got involved with DirtyDough before it was a guy that I
went to high school with movedto Arizona.
He wanted to be the firstgourmet cookie company in
Arizona.
So what do you do?
(04:07):
You start selling them out ofyour apartment because it
doesn't cost any money to startup.
And then he posts on Facebooksaying, hey, I want an investor
to open up the first storefront.
So I actually invested with himin 2019.
And then, at the end of 2020,I'm like, dude, let's franchise
this, I'll be your firstfranchisee in San Diego.
And he said no, I'm actuallythinking about selling.
(04:27):
And that scared me because I'mlike well, who are you going to
sell it to?
Am I going to lose all of mymoney?
Am I going to lose myinvestment?
I have no background in food orfranchising restaurants,
whatever, but I did figure thatthe same principles would apply
and I kind of already not kindof.
I definitely had that mindsetfrom door to door sales, because
you have people knocking doorsthat make a million dollars a
year and it's like, well, whatare they doing that I can't
learn?
You know that that mentalityreally helped me with sales and
(04:48):
I believe the answer is prettymuch nothing.
It's just an acquired skill.
So I applied that to business.
What is it what?
What is crumble doing?
What is Mrs Fields doing that Ican't learn or hire somebody to
know?
So I kind of just rolled thedice.
That's, that's my personality.
Jump in and then figure it out.
Brian Sheehan (05:03):
Hold the dice, that's that's my personality
Jump in and then figure it out.
That's incredible.
Bennett Maxwell (05:11):
So didn't know anything about cookies, other
than maybe some experience withlike a Mrs Fields and a shopping
mall somewhere or crumble oryeah, I mean just buying cookies
never, never making them, neveron the on the restaurant side,
just eating them, just on theeating side.
Brian Sheehan (05:23):
Well, so what is it that you love now that you've
been doing this since what?
2019, what?
What have you found that youlove most about this category
generally and, like that,operating environment?
Bennett Maxwell (05:37):
Maybe a little bit more broad, if that's okay.
I mean, just talk aboutfranchising, because I I had a
solar company.
It was doing well.
I mean, first year we did a fewmillion dollars, but I could
never see it becoming like anational brand where franchising
.
So I had a solar company.
It was doing well.
I mean, first year we did a fewmillion dollars, but I could
never see it becoming like anational brand when franchising.
I was watching Crumble do it.
I'm like man, they're anational brand in one year.
How Well?
There's all these people thatwant to own businesses but they
(05:58):
don't want to come up with aproduct.
They're like me, right, they'renot a baker, but they know how
to maybe run a business.
So they want a game plan and abrand and a product that already
works so they could go toMcDonald's or dirty dough or
crumble whatever.
And it's like, hey, I have themoney and I'm willing to work.
Can you help me out on thebusiness model?
And they say yes, so it's agreat way to go.
(06:19):
You go find a hundred franchisepartners and then you go open
up a hundred stores, rather thangoing and raising $30 million
and doing it yourself.
So by having all of thesepartners on the franchising side
.
It's such a win-win that theyare expanding.
Every franchise that opens ithelps the entire system with
brand awareness, you know,economies of scale and all of
our purchasing.
So I've really liked that.
(06:41):
Food and cookies the best partabsolutely is that I could show
up anywhere at any time with abox of cookies and everybody
will receive me.
I'm not even joking, I could.
I could go to the governor'soffice today with some cookies
and talk with who I need to talkto, cause if you show up with
warm cookies to a secretary andjust you know, shoot the shit
with her for a little bit.
It's like everybody's sowelcoming to you.
(07:03):
So I really, really enjoyedthat being the cookie guy.
Brian Sheehan (07:07):
That makes perfect sense.
You know, when I got started incommercial real estate, that
was your way to open doors inthis world was to bring some
cookies or donuts and somedonuts and cookies.
Bennett Maxwell (07:20):
Yep.
Brian Sheehan (07:20):
Cookies opens doors.
I mean, there you go.
Well, you mentioned about thebusiness model and let's dive in
there a little bit.
And there are some competitorsin the space, but you guys seem
to have a kind of a unique nichein it.
But for anybody that's notfamiliar with Dirty Dough, how
do you explain it to them?
Bennett Maxwell (07:38):
Yeah.
So there's two cookie modelsthat have been around.
One that's been around since1977, both Mrs Fields and Great
American Cookie Company startedin the same year and they make
all of their cookies in acentralized production facility
and ship them out to be bakedfresh on site.
Now they're plain, you knowsmall cookies, they don't have
(08:01):
anything on top, but you knowjust a plain regular cookie.
But that's the model that'slasted almost 50 years.
So centralized production that'swhat I need to do if I want to
withstand the 2008 recession andthe dot-com.
So I knew I wanted to do thecentralized production.
But what Crumble was doing wasthey were opening up a brand new
market of these large gourmetcookies that you could sell them
for $4.50, right.
(08:22):
But what they were doing iseverything is done by hand.
Every franchisee has to ordertheir own flour, sugar, butter,
hire, teenagers and college kidsthat always mess up on your
batches.
There's tons of waste.
And then, after you mixeverything and hopefully it was
done correctly then you have toweigh it by hand and portion it
by hand.
It just takes so long and withlabor these days especially,
(08:45):
like in California, they justpassed that law $20 an hour
minimum If you have over 50units, which we do like, how are
you going to survive?
But I knew I wanted to competewith crumble in the gourmet
cookie category.
So dirty dough is a marriage ofthe two models.
We found machinery that couldmass produce a third of a pound
cookies with that that arestuffed, or three layer cookies,
(09:07):
so it's like a fudge dough onthe outside with a chocolate
chip dough in the middle with acaramel injection.
That's our Brookie cookie.
So it gives us the a veryunique product for us and our
franchisees, while giving us theeconomies of scale and the
quality control of these robustmodels that have been around for
several decades.
So, consumer-facing, we'recompeting with Crumble, but
(09:29):
back-end, we're competing withthose other guys and it seems to
really have come together andattract a lot of franchisees to
that.
Brian Sheehan (09:37):
What a great innovation, right, this business
model that had been proven overmany number of years.
That had been proven over manynumber of years.
And then recognizing theinefficiency of a startup in the
space and how you could createa strategic advantage roughly
Right.
Bennett Maxwell (09:53):
Exactly.
And again, sales background.
Before I franchised it, I askeda hundred people hey, this is
what I'm doing, what do youthink, you know?
So I'm kind of pre-selling andit's like, and the business
model changed a hundred timesduring that.
You know, market research,let's call it.
But by the time I was ready tofranchise it, I I had the
feedback from the market and thefeedback was I want it as low
(10:13):
risk as possible, right,Obviously.
So what's more risky?
Signing a 10 year lease on a2000 square foot spot or 500
square foot spot, right?
So how do you get the squarefootage down?
We'll take out a lot of theequipment.
How do you take out theequipment?
Well, you have to centralize it.
So in order for us to do all ofthat, now it's allowed
franchisees.
You can operate at a 500 squarefeet, one oven, one employee.
(10:36):
So, as the economy goes up anddown and food is always cyclical
, as we hit those downturns, canwe keep our lights on?
Do we have the lowest break,even in the gourmet cookie
category, which I think we do?
Brian Sheehan (10:48):
That's awesome and I want to talk more about
some of those specifics, but Iguess I want to go back to just
the concept generally.
How do you decide on flavorsand you know different options
at Dirty?
Bennett Maxwell (11:02):
Dough yeah, that's, that's been fun.
I mean, sometimes we get socialmedia involved.
You know different options atDirty Dough yeah, that's, that's
been fun.
I mean, sometimes we get socialmedia involved.
You know having people vote onflavors.
We've had people create theirown flavors and we've named it
after them, which is fun.
There's so many different thingsyou can do with cookies, and
then you're also always lookingat the competitors in the space
or donuts Like what do you puton a donut?
(11:22):
Can we do the same things on acookie?
And then you taste test it.
I think a big advantage for anybusiness owner is especially if
it's in the food space or inany space don't be emotionally
attached to your product.
If your grandma's recipe isn'tas good as the baker's recipe
that you hired according to yourtarget demographic, then get
(11:44):
rid of granny's recipe.
Luckily, I didn't have any ofthat emotional attachment
because it was just a company Ibought, so we redid everything
since I bought it, other thanthe name Dirty Dough.
Logos, color branding,messaging, mission statement,
taglines, layout, every recipeit's all been redone.
Brian Sheehan (11:59):
Well, that was going to be my next question is
how do you ensure the experienceremains fresh and engaging for
repeat customers?
You know, understanding thatmaybe there's seasonal flavors
or there's certain things thatyou can do with the menu, but it
sounds like you've really beeninnovative about kind of the
entire footprint.
Bennett Maxwell (12:16):
Speaking on the menu.
I think that is a big thing.
Every week we have four newcookies and then, aside from
that, we're transitioning awayfrom a cookie store into a
cookie-inspired dessert store.
So we're adding edible cookiedough.
I think we just added dirtysodas to 20-something stores
last week, which is like DrPepper, you could put coconut
cream in a raspberry puree orsomething like that.
(12:38):
So we're looking at a handfulof these, these other products.
So when a customer comes in,it's not just a cookie, it's
something that maybe pairsbetter.
And the overall arching, I guess, goal of adding different types
of products is how often, brian, do you want to eat a 600
calorie cookie?
Right, not that often.
(12:59):
You're not going to come inevery day, you're not going to
come in every week.
So, but do you drink coffee,soda, maybe cookie dough, ice
cream, sandwich, a shake?
Right, then it's.
Let's keep everything as simpleas possible, but expand the
product line.
So if I first thing, I did, weadded chocolate and vanilla ice
cream and then we have ourcookies.
Rather than throwing away ourday old cookies, we keep them,
(13:21):
reheat them, put it in a bowl,put two scoops of ice cream.
If I'm offering eight cookieflavors and I have two flavors
of ice cream.
All of a sudden, I have 16flavors of what we call the
dirty scoop.
And then we introduce shakes.
Same thing I didn't need tointroduce anything other than a
blender and now I have 16 shakeflavors, and I'm using day-old
cookies in order to do that.
(13:41):
So, as I'm talking about, likeproduct expansion, we're
expanding while keeping thesimplicity that we've been
pitching ourselves to thefranchisees Like this is one of
the most simplistic foodfranchises to operate.
I send you a cookie dough puck,you put it in the oven and press
start.
Ovens are programmed.
Every cookie is the same.
You put it in the oven andpress start.
(14:02):
Ovens are programmed.
Every cookie is the same.
You could walk into any DirtyDough today across 25 states and
do what I just told you Grabsome cookies, put it on a cookie
sheet, press start.
So that's really what wecontinue to try to advertise
ourselves as, because that'swhat people want, right?
People want simplicity, easy tofollow.
At least I do.
Brian Sheehan (14:20):
It's incredible.
I want to ask you about some ofyour challenges.
But it sounds like and I stilldo but it sounds like it's a
really sustainable businessmodel in terms of you've got
this dead stock inventory callit or product that went unused,
and so you're finding creativeways to build that into another
(14:41):
product offering that you knoweliminates waste stream.
I mean, that's amazing.
Bennett Maxwell (14:46):
Yeah, again, this, that was probably I don't
even remember who, but that wasprobably somebody else's idea
when I'm like, oh yeah, but whatabout waste?
So I'm like, wait, what aboutwaste?
And then I had to identify.
I'm like, okay, where's thewaste happening?
Well, there's like your rawingredient waste.
Well, we've eliminated thatbecause there's not raw
ingredients anymore, right,we're bulk.
And then there's the oh shit, Imessed up a batch waste, which
(15:07):
we've eliminated that.
And then there's the what do Ido with my leftover cookies?
So we just had to eliminatethat last piece of waste.
And I'm sure that was an ideafrom who knows somebody else,
right?
I don't want to say I'm comingup with all these ideas because
I'm smart or anything.
I just ask a lot of people andI take their advice.
Brian Sheehan (15:23):
Yeah, smart enough to listen to them.
What are some of the other bigchallenges that you face when
running Dirty Dough, building itand operating?
Bennett Maxwell (15:33):
it Not being able to sleep, being killed with
stress lawsuits.
Okay, so, before we gotacquired, up until about July,
and we had a few million dollarinvestment come in in
preparation for the acquisitionJune of 2022, till let's call it
June of 2024, we were spending$200,000 more than we were
(15:53):
making every single month.
That is stressful becauseyou're always raising money and
you're always a month or six.
Well, you know, I'm alwayswithin six months of cashflow
and it's like, okay, well, whatif we run out?
Well, you have to go raisemoney again.
Well, what if you can't raisemoney?
Well then then that's it, yougo bankrupt.
And what if the company goesbankrupt?
Then I go bankrupt because Ihave so many personal guarantees
(16:14):
.
So that was probably the biggestis is just the finance side.
I just explained the wholefranchise model, which is great
for the franchisee, and thereason why crumble or these
other cookie companies.
I don't think do it becauseisn't it way easier just to say
Brian, here's my recipe go buyeverything, go make every, hire
everything, do it all yourself,right?
That's way easier.
I had to invest a few millioninto this before we even had a
(16:36):
freaking store open.
I'm trying to get theinfrastructure and everything in
place.
Brian Sheehan (16:40):
That's really why you were in this mode of
constantly needing to raisecapital, because you had such a
major investment at the outsetto centralize production and be
able to support the growth ofyour franchisees around it,
right?
Bennett Maxwell (16:55):
Yeah, and I'm glad we did it because it keeps
out competition, right?
Who else is stupid enough to gospend $2 million before you
open up a freaking store, right?
Only me.
So with doing that, it's likeokay, I took a big risk, but
then luckily it did end uppaying off because we have the
infrastructure there and it wasall about let's serve the
franchisees.
And I hear that like, oh,that's so cool that you're
(17:16):
focusing on franchisees andyou're not selfish or whatever.
And I'm like sure, or I'm justlong term selfish and I know
that if I take care of myfranchisees short term, then
long term it's going to be mostbeneficial.
But the advice that I've alwaysreceived is your franchisees
will make or break your business, so take care of them first.
If you have to give up equityby raising capital, do it.
If you have to do whatever youhave to do to provide them more
(17:38):
support, do it.
And by no means we've beenperfect in doing that, but I
think we've done a mighty goodjob for the rate at which we've
grown.
Brian Sheehan (17:47):
Curious.
So from the outset you're astep back.
You've got one location, you'recoming up with the vision for
how you're going to expand thisconcept and this brand and early
on you realized if I make thatinvestment in centralized
production, if we really focuson eliminating waste in every
(18:07):
store, every unit, that's goingto give us a strategic advantage
in the long run.
You had a long-term vision forthis business, exactly.
Bennett Maxwell (18:15):
And my goal wasn't to centralize the
production per se.
My goal was to streamlineportioning of the cookies,
because that's the highestturnover in the cookie industry,
I think, is.
We call the position the baller.
You come in and you ball doughfor five hours and your back is
just slightly bent over, justenough to make you quit after
(18:37):
two weeks.
Yeah, so my goal is how to getrid of that.
So we paid somebody to likecustom make.
It was like a big clamp, metalclamp that you had clamped, put
all the dough and anyways didn'twork, made another version,
didn't work.
Then I went okay, now we needan actual machine.
And then we found the machine.
And then the thing was I'mgoing to sell franchises in
(18:58):
groups of five.
You buy the first one and it'sa bigger facility and you buy
your own machine.
And then you buy a truck andthen you open up the other five
and you're making all thecookies and then you're
distributing it to yourself.
Right, as a franchisee, youhave to buy five, and that's how
it's going to work.
And then I spoke with JeffFenster, the owner of Everbull.
I just hit him up on Instagram.
He owns Everbulls.
(19:19):
It's another snack dessertspace, 100 locations.
He met up with me and I saidhey, dude, I'm so excited this
is what I'm doing.
And he said you're an idiotthat's going to fail.
He said you can't expect theseguys to buy a $200,000 machine,
know how to run it, maintain itand then forget about having
them do their own deliverieswith a freezer truck.
(19:39):
Are you kidding me on theliabilities?
So instantly I had to change mywhole business model again.
So there was a lot of differentiterations and it was just
pivot pivot, pivot pivot, whichI think comes back to.
They don't become emotionallyattached to any one thing, right
?
I don't care what works, aslong as it works, let's just go
test.
Brian Sheehan (19:57):
That's incredible and kudos to you for being
nimble enough to say hey, youknow, like you said, I'm not so
wedded to this model that I'mgoing to force everybody to go
that route.
Bennett Maxwell (20:10):
Understanding, you know, based on the
experience that you heard fromwith Everbull, yeah, and I think
it's a little bit more inherentif you don't have a background,
right, Because I'm coming inhere and I'm like this is my
plan and he's like that's aterrible plan.
I have a hundred locations.
I'm not going to be like, well,no, I used to work for Buffalo
Wild Wings and we did it thisway.
You know, it's just like okay,okay, I'm not valuing my opinion
(20:30):
that much because I know itdoesn't hold any weight, because
I have no experience.
Brian Sheehan (20:34):
Well, let's talk a little bit about the locations
.
So, from a store design kind ofpoint of view, when you start
planning, or the franchisees areplanning locations I'm not sure
how you guys, how muchinvolvement you have with them
in that but what are some of thekey elements you focus on to
ensure that you know it alignswith the brand's vision?
Bennett Maxwell (20:52):
Yeah, we have all of the metrics of.
You know we want middle tomiddle upper class.
Even though everybody loves theproduct, you know you need a
community that is willing to payfor it.
You need to have enoughpopulation around it.
We're looking at foot traffic.
If we can anchor ourselves nextto a Target or a Costco amazing
, that's our Target demographicright there.
(21:13):
So we're typically in a stripmall.
End units are amazing but wereally never get them because
what I'm after is trying tooperate out of 500, 800, 1,000
square feet and anybody on anend cap wants you to take 2,000
square feet, 4,000 square feet.
So it's really trying to getthat lease as low as possible by
focusing on a small square footspace but getting prime real
(21:35):
estate.
We're looking for B plus Aminus A locations on the real
estate side and we don't want toget too involved with the
franchisee because of legalityof if a store doesn't perform as
expected franchisees.
I guess you know they'll comeout to corporate and say, hey,
corporate, you approve this.
So, like the language, youdon't ever approve locations.
You respond to them and say wehave no objection, like all
(21:58):
these little things, because Iguess it's just there's lawsuits
in every franchisor community.
So it's a lot of it is lawsuitmitigation and some of that
stems from the, the selectingterritories.
Brian Sheehan (22:10):
What are some of the metrics that you find are
most important in measuring thesuccess of those individual
dirty design locations?
Bennett Maxwell (22:19):
Foot traffic or street visibility would
probably be the number one thingthat I would look for.
I mean, obviously you know how.
I forgot what our metric is onhousehold income 80,000 or more,
something like that.
If people try the product,they'll like it.
So if I can step outside of mydirty dough and there's a 200
cars parked in the targetparking lot and I can give out
(22:39):
free samples, what betteradvertising is that?
You know here's a 200 carsparked in the target parking lot
and I can give out free samples, what better advertising is
that?
You know here's a little tinycookie.
If you want more, walk over tothe store.
I'll wait, I'll give you a fullcookie.
If you just download our appand plug in your information, go
get a full cookie over there.
And now you get somebody inyour store and you're paying,
you know, a $12 an hour employeeto go hand out samples.
Or you go flyer the parking lotFree cookie with app download,
right, it's just how do we getpeople in the door?
(23:01):
So having busy parking lots andfoot traffic with a product
that's so easy and relativelycheap to give out as samples has
proven to be the mostsuccessful.
Brian Sheehan (23:12):
How important is the app in the global sales?
View of Dirty Dough.
Bennett Maxwell (23:18):
It's important we're not pushing it as much as.
So.
There's the, the app, and thenwith the app, is the loyalty
point.
So one of the metrics thatwe're monitoring obviously is
app downloads per week.
And then the other thing isloyalty percentage points
applied, or percentage of peoplethat use loyalty points.
So that way I can then measureif my employees, when I'm not in
(23:41):
the store, I know if they'resaying hey, are you a loyalty
member?
And if they say no, oh, let mesign you up.
All I need is your phone number, I'll give you a free cookie.
Or they say, yes, I am, andthey say cool, what's your phone
number?
Let me make sure you get points.
So if I know one employee is ata 30% attachment rate and
another employee is at a 10%attachment rate, then I can make
the decision do I need toretrain that employee or do I
(24:07):
need to find somebody else?
Right?
But I think loyalty percentagepoints is huge because those are
your loyal customers and you'remonitoring them.
How many times are you a memberof Chick-fil-A?
You go to Chick-fil-A.
They don't ask.
You don't use your loyaltypoints.
So the other thing is like alot of people are loyalty
members but they're just notusing them and anytime that you
use them, and then you get thatfree cookie with every 10th
purchase.
Brian Sheehan (24:24):
You know it builds that, I guess, greater
fan following the incentive'scritical, and it's really as
simple as just asking thequestion, yep.
Bennett Maxwell (24:34):
Asking the question and then setting up the
monitoring so I know whichemployees and which stores are
actually asking it or not.
Brian Sheehan (24:40):
That's amazing.
If there's one thing that youcould snap your fingers and
change about your stores, whatwould it be?
Bennett Maxwell (24:49):
We're adding quite a few products and I wish
we would have added those fromthe beginning.
How often does somebody want tocome and buy a 500 calorie
cookie?
It's not every day, so how doyou get them in with other
products?
Right now we're adding dirtysodas, which is like a Dr Pepper
with a coconut cream and araspberry puree.
I think 20 stores just wentlive with that, but we had to
(25:11):
retrofit them.
And now we're doing ediblecookie dough and ice cream
sandwiches.
So I would snap my fingers andhave all of the stores up with
the new products that we'rereally excited about.
Brian Sheehan (25:21):
You talk about how often somebody is buying and
consuming that big caloriecookie, and I think about my
experience as a kid the onlytime you had a giant cookie was
when you had one for yourbirthday that you were going to
share with your friends and Ithink about how far we've come
since then, because every time Igo buy a Dirty Dough there's a
number of customers in the store.
(25:42):
I've never been in one whenit's completely empty, and it
makes me think people are buyingthese cookies a lot more often
than I would have guessed.
Bennett Maxwell (25:50):
Yeah, but there's also the.
I don't know where are youbased?
Out of which store have youseen?
Brian Sheehan (25:55):
Cincinnati, ohio, but I mean I travel all over
the country and you guys arepopping up everywhere, so I
think the last one I was in wasin.
Bennett Maxwell (26:03):
Dallas.
Okay, yeah, we have a handfulin Dallas, but, like Cincinnati,
several million population, youknow, and within a door, dash,
delivery radius, we, you know,you have several hundred
thousand people.
So I still think that and yougo into a store and it's busy,
but I don't think we have a tonof repeat.
I mean, I know our repeatnumbers and it's not crazy high
(26:24):
because of it's just a, you know, it's it's more of a novelty
item.
So we're moving more towardseveryday items on the dessert
side, but while keeping itcookie inspired.
Brian Sheehan (26:34):
I guess talk about your growth goals Now that
you're transitioning into thisnew role.
Where do you want to see DirtyDough be over the next five
years.
Bennett Maxwell (26:44):
So we need to open up another 350 that we've
already sold and haven't openedyet.
And there's a lot because we'repivoting to a little bit more
of the dessert concepts.
We're talking with a lot ofother brands to bring in
different types of dessertproducts, which is super fun.
My goals, more on the personalside, is Craveworthy's other
(27:04):
brands.
Nobody's really pushed them tosell franchises, so I would love
to get all of those otherbrands going.
It works really well becauseit's a whole platform.
So the Dirty Dough owners inDallas maybe want to expand, but
there's no more room for thedirty does, right, so now you
could put a Genghis grill inthere or a wing it on or a bud
(27:25):
long.
I would love to get successfulfranchisees to own multiple
franchises in their sameterritory because typically,
again, if it's only one brand,you fill up your territory.
Then you're like now what do Ido?
Do I move?
Do I hire somebody?
But this way it allows you tostay local and continue to
expand through.
Brian Sheehan (27:44):
So because of the way the menu was built from the
beginning and now it'stransitioning, but you've got
this relatively large radiusaround existing Dirty Dough's
that five stores can service alarge metropolitan area.
Is that going to change overtime as you massage and add more
(28:04):
items on the menu?
Bennett Maxwell (28:06):
Maybe probably not.
There's so much territory inthe country that, like what I've
heard several dozen times oncomplaints about our competitors
crumble, is they oversoldterritories?
And I think we did the samething here in Utah, such a
saturated market.
We looked at the competition,saw how many stores they had
opened, and opened a few lessthan them, but it was just still
(28:29):
too much.
So we want to be overlycautious on providing more area
than less and then the strategyis okay.
After a year or so goes by.
If that store is crushing itand they want to open up a
second territory in their market, go ahead.
But what we don't want to do isthrow somebody else two miles
down the street and then havethem compete.
Brian Sheehan (28:51):
That sounds like great advice.
What's some other advice youwould give to someone that wants
to start a food business orjump into the retail industry?
Bennett Maxwell (29:00):
Yeah, I would get some good advisors and if I
can give you the practicaladvice on that real quick,
because I didn't even know whatan advisor was a few years ago
these are not a board ofdirectors.
They make no decisions in yourcompany, they're just advisors.
And the industry standard toget an advisor is you give them
a half a percent to a percentand a half of equity.
(29:21):
So when I did this, my companywas worth nothing.
I didn't even rent one store.
We were losing money because Istarted hiring corporate
employees and anyways, I got thefirst guy to be my senior
advisor, gave him a percent anda half His company IPO it was
called Infospace for $31 billion.
So I'm like, how the hell wouldthis guy help me for percent
and a half of nothing?
Well, why did he do it?
(29:41):
Because I pitched him on myidea, right, and I sold him on
that.
And then he brought in thesecond advisor, steve Hart, the
owner of the largest propertymanagement franchise in the
nation.
So now I have a franchiseexpert, I have a business expert
and I kind of started with that.
I also hired an experienced CEO, which you can't always do
right off the get-go, but youcan with these advisors and the
expectation is like an hour aweek roughly.
(30:03):
And the cool thing is you alsoset them up subject to vesting a
two-year vesting schedule everysix months, a quarter of their
equity vests.
And what that means is if Ihire somebody as an advisor
which I did and I gave him apercent equity and he was an
all-star for a month and a halfand then he stopped responding
to phone calls, I just sent himan email and said, hey, sorry,
it's not working out.
(30:24):
He doesn't get any of hisequity because six months didn't
go by.
He doesn't get any of hisequity because six months didn't
go by, he didn't fulfill hisagreement.
So you can get these all-starsfor very little percentage
points of your company and stillsubject it to a time-based
performance.
I think that's the biggest thingbecause, aside from the advice
you're going to get, if you'retrying to expand and raise money
, sell franchises whatever.
Nobody wants to invest inBennett Maxwell.
(30:45):
Nobody wants to buy a franchisefrom Bennett Maxwell, but maybe
they do from John Richardsbecause he's done a $30 billion
company, or Steve Hart or a JillSummer Hayes, who's the founder
of Maui Waui.
You know our current CEO hasbeen the CEO of Jimmy John's
during their rapid growth.
Those are the types of peoplethat build confidence in your
prospects.
So, aside from the advice, it'sa very good leverage point from
a sales perspective.
(31:06):
It's a very good leverage pointfrom a sales perspective.
Brian Sheehan (31:08):
That's incredible .
What great advice.
How many locations are therecurrently?
Bennett Maxwell (31:14):
Around 80.
I think there's 70 brick andmortar stores and 18 food
trailers.
Brian Sheehan (31:23):
And we have, I don't know, another 30 or so
under construction right now.
How many more will open in 2025?
75.
And you talked about the sizerequirement.
I just want to get through acouple of the nuts and bolts
here so you can go as small as500 square feet.
1200 square feet is kind of max.
Bennett Maxwell (31:39):
Yeah, I mean, but it's sometimes it's hard to
find spots, even 1200 squarefeet, but yeah, I mean, I would
say 800, if you found 800,perfect.
However, it's just really hard.
So, yeah, some some franchiseeswill sign leases 14, 1500
square feet and then throw likea little office space in the
back or something like that.
We try to get them to be ableto double utilize it if they
(32:00):
have another business orsomething like that.
Brian Sheehan (32:01):
Okay, and the plant?
It's a hundred percentfranchise or are you going to
open some corporate locationsgoing forward, Do you think?
I think we have eight corporatelocations.
Bennett Maxwell (32:10):
We're not going to open up a ton more.
Eight is a good amount becausewe do have them spread across
four different states.
So now we could test, you knowagain we were adding dirty sodas
.
Well, we tested those first,you know, and cookie dough and
coffee and all those things.
So not a big expansion plan onthe corporate side.
Brian Sheehan (32:26):
Okay, code-tenants, you talked about
Target, costco, so groceryanchored centers sound like a
good fit.
Any other?
Bennett Maxwell (32:33):
25 to 55 year old females.
Where do they go?
So Starbucks up there, right,that's a great one to be next to
as well.
Brian Sheehan (32:41):
I wonder if, oddly like, being next to
fitness is somehow a goodco-tenancy.
Bennett Maxwell (32:48):
I think.
So we gained a big fitnessfollowing in Arizona.
For whatever reason,bodybuilders after their shows,
this is the cheat meal.
They don't care, they wantsomething huge and delicious and
filled with calories,especially if they're bulking.
So yeah, we've done CrossFitshows and they love that.
So that's not something that wesuggest the franchisees per se,
(33:09):
but it is something that I have, I guess, seen anecdotally work
.
Brian Sheehan (33:15):
And then are there any other location
requirements that you haven'talready talked about?
Bennett Maxwell (33:21):
Yeah, population as well.
Like we need ideally 100,000people.
Now there's stores doing goodin populations less than that
thousand people.
Now there's stores doing goodin populations less than that.
And I'm talking like if it's anisolated spot, right, and it's
not Plano Texas, but that's partof the Dallas Metro.
I'm talking Chickasha, oklahoma, with 15,000 people, nothing
within a 30 minute drive, causewe tried out that market and
(33:43):
just you have to have 10% of thefreaking population buy from
you every month.
Brian Sheehan (33:50):
So population is a big one.
So you really, you know, keepin mind a hundred thousand
population.
Bennett Maxwell (33:56):
When we're going to metros, it's, it's.
I shoot for 200,000.
So if it's a million, you knowwe'll put four or five stores,
but kind of the lowest we'll goon.
The smaller ones is what we're.
We're.
We're typically right around ahundred thousand.
Brian Sheehan (34:13):
And Ben, what's the easiest way to submit a, you
know, a shopping center, likeif I've got a shopping center
with a space available orthere's a broker that's
listening to the podcast thatwants to submit a site.
They think Dirty Dough would dowell there.
Bennett Maxwell (34:21):
Who should?
Brian Sheehan (34:21):
they send it to.
Bennett Maxwell (34:23):
Our construction and site approval
guy Seth Anderson, seth atDirtyDoughcom and site approval
guy Seth Anderson, seth atdirtydoughcom.
Send them to him and then kindof back to the.
What he will do is he wouldforward those on to the
franchisee Cause.
Again, we try it.
We're trying to keep an armlengths distance from the real
estate side, sure, and we arealso very particular on the
(34:44):
helping franchisees hire andguide on that because we don't
want to be confused as a jointemployer Anyways.
But yeah, seth would pass thaton to that local franchisee and
just connect them that way andthen the broker would be working
with the franchisee directly.
Brian Sheehan (34:58):
Okay, and then maybe the last question is there
.
You talked a little bit aboutthe build out, but is there
anything unusual in terms ofHVAC, electrical water?
It's got one oven.
Bennett Maxwell (35:09):
No, and that oven doesn't require a hood.
So it's pretty.
Yeah, it's pretty basic.
I forgot their electricalrequirements.
I don't know if we've ever raninto it, because it's one oven,
I mean, that's a what is it?
220 volt, and then we have afreezer that's, you know, pulls
quite a bit of energy as well.
So you have walk-in freezer,walk-in Yep, and that's kind of
it.
Yeah, it's.
Our build-outs have been quick,they've been low cost, which is
(35:32):
really nice, cause it's justkind of a counter you put in
your plumbing and you put inyour electrical and then a wall
Throw in a bathroom, if itdoesn't already have one, and
call it good.
Brian Sheehan (35:42):
Low cost and fast .
I mean that sounds like recipefor success right there.
Yeah, I like the pun.
Well, bennett, it was greatspeaking with you today.
Thank you for joining me onRetail Intel.
All right, be sure to check outDirty Dough in person and on
Instagram at Dirty Dough.
Whether you're an aspiring realestate mogul, a seasoned pro or
(36:04):
simply curious about the placeswhere we shop, dine, play and
work, this podcast is yourall-access pass to the world of
commercial real estate.
Connect with me on LinkedIn and, if you're interested in being
a part of the Retail Intelpodcast, send a message to
nationalaccounts atphillipsedisoncom.
If you want to hear more aboutnew and expanding brands like
(36:25):
Dirty Dough, keep tuning in toRetail Intel and please
subscribe, follow, like andrepost.
Talk to you next time.
Welcome to Retail Intel, the podcast where we
dive deep into the dynamic worldof commercial real estate.
I'm your host, brian Sheehan,and I'm thrilled to be your
guide on this journey throughthe bustling streets of retail,
the aisles of shopping centersand the world of commercial
property investment.
With me today is BennettMaxwell, founder of Dirty Dough.
(00:25):
Bennett has an inspiring storyof entrepreneurship and
innovation in the retail space.
Dirty Dough is known for itsdelicious stuffed cookies that
have taken the market by storm.
Bennett and his team havecreated a unique brand that
combines indulgence withcreativity.
I'm excited to learn more abouthis journey and the story
(00:47):
behind what's powering thegrowth of Dirty Dough.
Bennett, welcome.
How are you?
Bennett Maxwell (00:52):
I'm doing really good, brian.
Thanks, how are you doing?
Brian Sheehan (00:54):
Excellent, so I'd love to start with your
background.
Can you tell us more about yourcareer journey and what led you
to start Dirty Dough?
Bennett Maxwell (01:03):
Yeah, background is in sales.
I did Cutco Knives right out ofhigh school for a few months,
got some amazing training on howto ask for referrals and
unapologetically Then I went ona two-year Mormon mission to
Tijuana, mexico, which is twomore years of sales.
Came home.
I grew up in Utah and, becauseof the Mormon culture here and
(01:25):
so many missionaries, you haveall the largest door-to-door
companies in the world in Provo,utah, right next to Brigham
Young University.
So you get home from yourmission and you have like 10
people trying to recruit you.
So you're not applying anywhere.
You're like trying to negotiatea better pay.
You feel like a hotshot.
Anyway, I got into that, didthat for five years.
Every year I transitionedindustries.
(01:47):
I did pest control, then Ichanged to satellite direct TV,
smart home systems, solar, andthen solar was the best out of
all of them.
I loved them all and then Istarted a solar company with my
brother.
This was just in 2020.
We ran it only for 18 months,sold it.
I purchased Dirty Dough when itwas one store at the beginning
(02:08):
of 2021 with the intent tofranchise it.
So a lot of sales.
I think that's the mostvaluable skill that you need in
business.
Maybe not sales, but persuasion, communication, however you
want to call it.
So yeah, that kind of led me upinto Dirty Dough.
I've been running that for thelast three years.
Just until last month I soldout to Craveworthy Brands out of
(02:28):
Chicago.
It's a restaurant portfoliocompany.
We partnered with them at thebeginning of the year and they
fixed all my many mistakes.
I mean not all of them, theyhaven't fixed them all.
They fixed most of my manymistakes that I've done.
So I got the company up.
We've opened up 80 stores inthe last two years We've sold
450 franchises.
But I'm not the guy to fulfillon that.
I know my limits.
And working in a restaurant andmanaging and hiring I mean I
(02:51):
suck at hiring people.
So that kind of fast forwardsme to where I'm at today.
Brian Sheehan (02:56):
Well, that's such an incredible background One.
I didn't realize that we have ashared background in solar.
I didn't know.
You did solar Sweet, and I kindof want to come back to that in
a second.
So, thinking back to when youwere looking at different types
of businesses to acquire, togrow, what was it that attracted
you to Dirty Dill?
(03:17):
How'd you know about them?
What made you think you knowyou could turn that into 450
units?
Bennett Maxwell (03:22):
Yeah, I mean, I didn't ever think I could.
My goal was to open up 30stores in five years.
That was the goal and I wouldhave been happy with that goal.
I'm sure I wasn't looking for abusiness to buy.
I'm always interested in, youknow, investing whatever.
I've invested in some cryptosand a handful of real estate
properties, and I just listenedto a podcast that said true
wealth is built by investinginto real estate, and I'm kind
(03:44):
of like check, at least you knowsome real estate and buying
businesses.
Well, I'd never consideredbuying a business.
Within a few weeks of thathappening, I found out that
Dirty Dough was wanting to sell.
How I got involved with DirtyDough before it was a guy that I
went to high school with movedto Arizona.
He wanted to be the firstgourmet cookie company in
Arizona.
So what do you do?
(04:07):
You start selling them out ofyour apartment because it
doesn't cost any money to startup.
And then he posts on Facebooksaying, hey, I want an investor
to open up the first storefront.
So I actually invested with himin 2019.
And then, at the end of 2020,I'm like, dude, let's franchise
this, I'll be your firstfranchisee in San Diego.
And he said no, I'm actuallythinking about selling.
(04:27):
And that scared me because I'mlike well, who are you going to
sell it to?
Am I going to lose all of mymoney?
Am I going to lose myinvestment?
I have no background in food orfranchising restaurants,
whatever, but I did figure thatthe same principles would apply
and I kind of already not kindof.
I definitely had that mindsetfrom door to door sales, because
you have people knocking doorsthat make a million dollars a
year and it's like, well, whatare they doing that I can't
learn?
You know that that mentalityreally helped me with sales and
(04:48):
I believe the answer is prettymuch nothing.
It's just an acquired skill.
So I applied that to business.
What is it what?
What is crumble doing?
What is Mrs Fields doing that Ican't learn or hire somebody to
know?
So I kind of just rolled thedice.
That's, that's my personality.
Jump in and then figure it out.
Brian Sheehan (05:03):
Hold the dice, that's that's my personality
Jump in and then figure it out.
That's incredible.
Bennett Maxwell (05:11):
So didn't know anything about cookies, other
than maybe some experience withlike a Mrs Fields and a shopping
mall somewhere or crumble oryeah, I mean just buying cookies
never, never making them, neveron the on the restaurant side,
just eating them, just on theeating side.
Brian Sheehan (05:23):
Well, so what is it that you love now that you've
been doing this since what?
2019, what?
What have you found that youlove most about this category
generally and, like that,operating environment?
Bennett Maxwell (05:37):
Maybe a little bit more broad, if that's okay.
I mean, just talk aboutfranchising, because I I had a
solar company.
It was doing well.
I mean, first year we did a fewmillion dollars, but I could
never see it becoming like anational brand where franchising
.
So I had a solar company.
It was doing well.
I mean, first year we did a fewmillion dollars, but I could
never see it becoming like anational brand when franchising.
I was watching Crumble do it.
I'm like man, they're anational brand in one year.
How Well?
There's all these people thatwant to own businesses but they
(05:58):
don't want to come up with aproduct.
They're like me, right, they'renot a baker, but they know how
to maybe run a business.
So they want a game plan and abrand and a product that already
works so they could go toMcDonald's or dirty dough or
crumble whatever.
And it's like, hey, I have themoney and I'm willing to work.
Can you help me out on thebusiness model?
And they say yes, so it's agreat way to go.
(06:19):
You go find a hundred franchisepartners and then you go open
up a hundred stores, rather thangoing and raising $30 million
and doing it yourself.
So by having all of thesepartners on the franchising side
.
It's such a win-win that theyare expanding.
Every franchise that opens ithelps the entire system with
brand awareness, you know,economies of scale and all of
our purchasing.
So I've really liked that.
(06:41):
Food and cookies the best partabsolutely is that I could show
up anywhere at any time with abox of cookies and everybody
will receive me.
I'm not even joking, I could.
I could go to the governor'soffice today with some cookies
and talk with who I need to talkto, cause if you show up with
warm cookies to a secretary andjust you know, shoot the shit
with her for a little bit.
It's like everybody's sowelcoming to you.
(07:03):
So I really, really enjoyedthat being the cookie guy.
Brian Sheehan (07:07):
That makes perfect sense.
You know, when I got started incommercial real estate, that
was your way to open doors inthis world was to bring some
cookies or donuts and somedonuts and cookies.
Bennett Maxwell (07:20):
Yep.
Brian Sheehan (07:20):
Cookies opens doors.
I mean, there you go.
Well, you mentioned about thebusiness model and let's dive in
there a little bit.
And there are some competitorsin the space, but you guys seem
to have a kind of a unique nichein it.
But for anybody that's notfamiliar with Dirty Dough, how
do you explain it to them?
Bennett Maxwell (07:38):
Yeah.
So there's two cookie modelsthat have been around.
One that's been around since1977, both Mrs Fields and Great
American Cookie Company startedin the same year and they make
all of their cookies in acentralized production facility
and ship them out to be bakedfresh on site.
Now they're plain, you knowsmall cookies, they don't have
(08:01):
anything on top, but you knowjust a plain regular cookie.
But that's the model that'slasted almost 50 years.
So centralized production that'swhat I need to do if I want to
withstand the 2008 recession andthe dot-com.
So I knew I wanted to do thecentralized production.
But what Crumble was doing wasthey were opening up a brand new
market of these large gourmetcookies that you could sell them
for $4.50, right.
(08:22):
But what they were doing iseverything is done by hand.
Every franchisee has to ordertheir own flour, sugar, butter,
hire, teenagers and college kidsthat always mess up on your
batches.
There's tons of waste.
And then, after you mixeverything and hopefully it was
done correctly then you have toweigh it by hand and portion it
by hand.
It just takes so long and withlabor these days especially,
(08:45):
like in California, they justpassed that law $20 an hour
minimum If you have over 50units, which we do like, how are
you going to survive?
But I knew I wanted to competewith crumble in the gourmet
cookie category.
So dirty dough is a marriage ofthe two models.
We found machinery that couldmass produce a third of a pound
cookies with that that arestuffed, or three layer cookies,
(09:07):
so it's like a fudge dough onthe outside with a chocolate
chip dough in the middle with acaramel injection.
That's our Brookie cookie.
So it gives us the a veryunique product for us and our
franchisees, while giving us theeconomies of scale and the
quality control of these robustmodels that have been around for
several decades.
So, consumer-facing, we'recompeting with Crumble, but
(09:29):
back-end, we're competing withthose other guys and it seems to
really have come together andattract a lot of franchisees to
that.
Brian Sheehan (09:37):
What a great innovation, right, this business
model that had been proven overmany number of years.
That had been proven over manynumber of years.
And then recognizing theinefficiency of a startup in the
space and how you could createa strategic advantage roughly
Right.
Bennett Maxwell (09:53):
Exactly.
And again, sales background.
Before I franchised it, I askeda hundred people hey, this is
what I'm doing, what do youthink, you know?
So I'm kind of pre-selling andit's like, and the business
model changed a hundred timesduring that.
You know, market research,let's call it.
But by the time I was ready tofranchise it, I I had the
feedback from the market and thefeedback was I want it as low
(10:13):
risk as possible, right,Obviously.
So what's more risky?
Signing a 10 year lease on a2000 square foot spot or 500
square foot spot, right?
So how do you get the squarefootage down?
We'll take out a lot of theequipment.
How do you take out theequipment?
Well, you have to centralize it.
So in order for us to do all ofthat, now it's allowed
franchisees.
You can operate at a 500 squarefeet, one oven, one employee.
(10:36):
So, as the economy goes up anddown and food is always cyclical
, as we hit those downturns, canwe keep our lights on?
Do we have the lowest break,even in the gourmet cookie
category, which I think we do?
Brian Sheehan (10:48):
That's awesome and I want to talk more about
some of those specifics, but Iguess I want to go back to just
the concept generally.
How do you decide on flavorsand you know different options
at Dirty?
Bennett Maxwell (11:02):
Dough yeah, that's, that's been fun.
I mean, sometimes we get socialmedia involved.
You know different options atDirty Dough yeah, that's, that's
been fun.
I mean, sometimes we get socialmedia involved.
You know having people vote onflavors.
We've had people create theirown flavors and we've named it
after them, which is fun.
There's so many different thingsyou can do with cookies, and
then you're also always lookingat the competitors in the space
or donuts Like what do you puton a donut?
(11:22):
Can we do the same things on acookie?
And then you taste test it.
I think a big advantage for anybusiness owner is especially if
it's in the food space or inany space don't be emotionally
attached to your product.
If your grandma's recipe isn'tas good as the baker's recipe
that you hired according to yourtarget demographic, then get
(11:44):
rid of granny's recipe.
Luckily, I didn't have any ofthat emotional attachment
because it was just a company Ibought, so we redid everything
since I bought it, other thanthe name Dirty Dough.
Logos, color branding,messaging, mission statement,
taglines, layout, every recipeit's all been redone.
Brian Sheehan (11:59):
Well, that was going to be my next question is
how do you ensure the experienceremains fresh and engaging for
repeat customers?
You know, understanding thatmaybe there's seasonal flavors
or there's certain things thatyou can do with the menu, but it
sounds like you've really beeninnovative about kind of the
entire footprint.
Bennett Maxwell (12:16):
Speaking on the menu.
I think that is a big thing.
Every week we have four newcookies and then, aside from
that, we're transitioning awayfrom a cookie store into a
cookie-inspired dessert store.
So we're adding edible cookiedough.
I think we just added dirtysodas to 20-something stores
last week, which is like DrPepper, you could put coconut
cream in a raspberry puree orsomething like that.
(12:38):
So we're looking at a handfulof these, these other products.
So when a customer comes in,it's not just a cookie, it's
something that maybe pairsbetter.
And the overall arching, I guess, goal of adding different types
of products is how often, brian, do you want to eat a 600
calorie cookie?
Right, not that often.
(12:59):
You're not going to come inevery day, you're not going to
come in every week.
So, but do you drink coffee,soda, maybe cookie dough, ice
cream, sandwich, a shake?
Right, then it's.
Let's keep everything as simpleas possible, but expand the
product line.
So if I first thing, I did, weadded chocolate and vanilla ice
cream and then we have ourcookies.
Rather than throwing away ourday old cookies, we keep them,
(13:21):
reheat them, put it in a bowl,put two scoops of ice cream.
If I'm offering eight cookieflavors and I have two flavors
of ice cream.
All of a sudden, I have 16flavors of what we call the
dirty scoop.
And then we introduce shakes.
Same thing I didn't need tointroduce anything other than a
blender and now I have 16 shakeflavors, and I'm using day-old
cookies in order to do that.
(13:41):
So, as I'm talking about, likeproduct expansion, we're
expanding while keeping thesimplicity that we've been
pitching ourselves to thefranchisees Like this is one of
the most simplistic foodfranchises to operate.
I send you a cookie dough puck,you put it in the oven and press
start.
Ovens are programmed.
Every cookie is the same.
You put it in the oven andpress start.
(14:02):
Ovens are programmed.
Every cookie is the same.
You could walk into any DirtyDough today across 25 states and
do what I just told you Grabsome cookies, put it on a cookie
sheet, press start.
So that's really what wecontinue to try to advertise
ourselves as, because that'swhat people want, right?
People want simplicity, easy tofollow.
At least I do.
Brian Sheehan (14:20):
It's incredible.
I want to ask you about some ofyour challenges.
But it sounds like and I stilldo but it sounds like it's a
really sustainable businessmodel in terms of you've got
this dead stock inventory callit or product that went unused,
and so you're finding creativeways to build that into another
(14:41):
product offering that you knoweliminates waste stream.
I mean, that's amazing.
Bennett Maxwell (14:46):
Yeah, again, this, that was probably I don't
even remember who, but that wasprobably somebody else's idea
when I'm like, oh yeah, but whatabout waste?
So I'm like, wait, what aboutwaste?
And then I had to identify.
I'm like, okay, where's thewaste happening?
Well, there's like your rawingredient waste.
Well, we've eliminated thatbecause there's not raw
ingredients anymore, right,we're bulk.
And then there's the oh shit, Imessed up a batch waste, which
(15:07):
we've eliminated that.
And then there's the what do Ido with my leftover cookies?
So we just had to eliminatethat last piece of waste.
And I'm sure that was an ideafrom who knows somebody else,
right?
I don't want to say I'm comingup with all these ideas because
I'm smart or anything.
I just ask a lot of people andI take their advice.
Brian Sheehan (15:23):
Yeah, smart enough to listen to them.
What are some of the other bigchallenges that you face when
running Dirty Dough, building itand operating?
Bennett Maxwell (15:33):
it Not being able to sleep, being killed with
stress lawsuits.
Okay, so, before we gotacquired, up until about July,
and we had a few million dollarinvestment come in in
preparation for the acquisitionJune of 2022, till let's call it
June of 2024, we were spending$200,000 more than we were
(15:53):
making every single month.
That is stressful becauseyou're always raising money and
you're always a month or six.
Well, you know, I'm alwayswithin six months of cashflow
and it's like, okay, well, whatif we run out?
Well, you have to go raisemoney again.
Well, what if you can't raisemoney?
Well then then that's it, yougo bankrupt.
And what if the company goesbankrupt?
Then I go bankrupt because Ihave so many personal guarantees
(16:14):
.
So that was probably the biggestis is just the finance side.
I just explained the wholefranchise model, which is great
for the franchisee, and thereason why crumble or these
other cookie companies.
I don't think do it becauseisn't it way easier just to say
Brian, here's my recipe go buyeverything, go make every, hire
everything, do it all yourself,right?
That's way easier.
I had to invest a few millioninto this before we even had a
(16:36):
freaking store open.
I'm trying to get theinfrastructure and everything in
place.
Brian Sheehan (16:40):
That's really why you were in this mode of
constantly needing to raisecapital, because you had such a
major investment at the outsetto centralize production and be
able to support the growth ofyour franchisees around it,
right?
Bennett Maxwell (16:55):
Yeah, and I'm glad we did it because it keeps
out competition, right?
Who else is stupid enough to gospend $2 million before you
open up a freaking store, right?
Only me.
So with doing that, it's likeokay, I took a big risk, but
then luckily it did end uppaying off because we have the
infrastructure there and it wasall about let's serve the
franchisees.
And I hear that like, oh,that's so cool that you're
(17:16):
focusing on franchisees andyou're not selfish or whatever.
And I'm like sure, or I'm justlong term selfish and I know
that if I take care of myfranchisees short term, then
long term it's going to be mostbeneficial.
But the advice that I've alwaysreceived is your franchisees
will make or break your business, so take care of them first.
If you have to give up equityby raising capital, do it.
If you have to do whatever youhave to do to provide them more
(17:38):
support, do it.
And by no means we've beenperfect in doing that, but I
think we've done a mighty goodjob for the rate at which we've
grown.
Brian Sheehan (17:47):
Curious.
So from the outset you're astep back.
You've got one location, you'recoming up with the vision for
how you're going to expand thisconcept and this brand and early
on you realized if I make thatinvestment in centralized
production, if we really focuson eliminating waste in every
(18:07):
store, every unit, that's goingto give us a strategic advantage
in the long run.
You had a long-term vision forthis business, exactly.
Bennett Maxwell (18:15):
And my goal wasn't to centralize the
production per se.
My goal was to streamlineportioning of the cookies,
because that's the highestturnover in the cookie industry,
I think, is.
We call the position the baller.
You come in and you ball doughfor five hours and your back is
just slightly bent over, justenough to make you quit after
(18:37):
two weeks.
Yeah, so my goal is how to getrid of that.
So we paid somebody to likecustom make.
It was like a big clamp, metalclamp that you had clamped, put
all the dough and anyways didn'twork, made another version,
didn't work.
Then I went okay, now we needan actual machine.
And then we found the machine.
And then the thing was I'mgoing to sell franchises in
(18:58):
groups of five.
You buy the first one and it'sa bigger facility and you buy
your own machine.
And then you buy a truck andthen you open up the other five
and you're making all thecookies and then you're
distributing it to yourself.
Right, as a franchisee, youhave to buy five, and that's how
it's going to work.
And then I spoke with JeffFenster, the owner of Everbull.
I just hit him up on Instagram.
He owns Everbulls.
(19:19):
It's another snack dessertspace, 100 locations.
He met up with me and I saidhey, dude, I'm so excited this
is what I'm doing.
And he said you're an idiotthat's going to fail.
He said you can't expect theseguys to buy a $200,000 machine,
know how to run it, maintain itand then forget about having
them do their own deliverieswith a freezer truck.
(19:39):
Are you kidding me on theliabilities?
So instantly I had to change mywhole business model again.
So there was a lot of differentiterations and it was just
pivot pivot, pivot pivot, whichI think comes back to.
They don't become emotionallyattached to any one thing, right
?
I don't care what works, aslong as it works, let's just go
test.
Brian Sheehan (19:57):
That's incredible and kudos to you for being
nimble enough to say hey, youknow, like you said, I'm not so
wedded to this model that I'mgoing to force everybody to go
that route.
Bennett Maxwell (20:10):
Understanding, you know, based on the
experience that you heard fromwith Everbull, yeah, and I think
it's a little bit more inherentif you don't have a background,
right, Because I'm coming inhere and I'm like this is my
plan and he's like that's aterrible plan.
I have a hundred locations.
I'm not going to be like, well,no, I used to work for Buffalo
Wild Wings and we did it thisway.
You know, it's just like okay,okay, I'm not valuing my opinion
(20:30):
that much because I know itdoesn't hold any weight, because
I have no experience.
Brian Sheehan (20:34):
Well, let's talk a little bit about the locations
.
So, from a store design kind ofpoint of view, when you start
planning, or the franchisees areplanning locations I'm not sure
how you guys, how muchinvolvement you have with them
in that but what are some of thekey elements you focus on to
ensure that you know it alignswith the brand's vision?
Bennett Maxwell (20:52):
Yeah, we have all of the metrics of.
You know we want middle tomiddle upper class.
Even though everybody loves theproduct, you know you need a
community that is willing to payfor it.
You need to have enoughpopulation around it.
We're looking at foot traffic.
If we can anchor ourselves nextto a Target or a Costco amazing
, that's our Target demographicright there.
(21:13):
So we're typically in a stripmall.
End units are amazing but wereally never get them because
what I'm after is trying tooperate out of 500, 800, 1,000
square feet and anybody on anend cap wants you to take 2,000
square feet, 4,000 square feet.
So it's really trying to getthat lease as low as possible by
focusing on a small square footspace but getting prime real
(21:35):
estate.
We're looking for B plus Aminus A locations on the real
estate side and we don't want toget too involved with the
franchisee because of legalityof if a store doesn't perform as
expected franchisees.
I guess you know they'll comeout to corporate and say, hey,
corporate, you approve this.
So, like the language, youdon't ever approve locations.
You respond to them and say wehave no objection, like all
(21:58):
these little things, because Iguess it's just there's lawsuits
in every franchisor community.
So it's a lot of it is lawsuitmitigation and some of that
stems from the, the selectingterritories.
Brian Sheehan (22:10):
What are some of the metrics that you find are
most important in measuring thesuccess of those individual
dirty design locations?
Bennett Maxwell (22:19):
Foot traffic or street visibility would
probably be the number one thingthat I would look for.
I mean, obviously you know how.
I forgot what our metric is onhousehold income 80,000 or more,
something like that.
If people try the product,they'll like it.
So if I can step outside of mydirty dough and there's a 200
cars parked in the targetparking lot and I can give out
(22:39):
free samples, what betteradvertising is that?
You know here's a 200 carsparked in the target parking lot
and I can give out free samples, what better advertising is
that?
You know here's a little tinycookie.
If you want more, walk over tothe store.
I'll wait, I'll give you a fullcookie.
If you just download our appand plug in your information, go
get a full cookie over there.
And now you get somebody inyour store and you're paying,
you know, a $12 an hour employeeto go hand out samples.
Or you go flyer the parking lotFree cookie with app download,
right, it's just how do we getpeople in the door?
(23:01):
So having busy parking lots andfoot traffic with a product
that's so easy and relativelycheap to give out as samples has
proven to be the mostsuccessful.
Brian Sheehan (23:12):
How important is the app in the global sales?
View of Dirty Dough.
Bennett Maxwell (23:18):
It's important we're not pushing it as much as.
So.
There's the, the app, and thenwith the app, is the loyalty
point.
So one of the metrics thatwe're monitoring obviously is
app downloads per week.
And then the other thing isloyalty percentage points
applied, or percentage of peoplethat use loyalty points.
So that way I can then measureif my employees, when I'm not in
(23:41):
the store, I know if they'resaying hey, are you a loyalty
member?
And if they say no, oh, let mesign you up.
All I need is your phone number, I'll give you a free cookie.
Or they say, yes, I am, andthey say cool, what's your phone
number?
Let me make sure you get points.
So if I know one employee is ata 30% attachment rate and
another employee is at a 10%attachment rate, then I can make
the decision do I need toretrain that employee or do I
(24:07):
need to find somebody else?
Right?
But I think loyalty percentagepoints is huge because those are
your loyal customers and you'remonitoring them.
How many times are you a memberof Chick-fil-A?
You go to Chick-fil-A.
They don't ask.
You don't use your loyaltypoints.
So the other thing is like alot of people are loyalty
members but they're just notusing them and anytime that you
use them, and then you get thatfree cookie with every 10th
purchase.
Brian Sheehan (24:24):
You know it builds that, I guess, greater
fan following the incentive'scritical, and it's really as
simple as just asking thequestion, yep.
Bennett Maxwell (24:34):
Asking the question and then setting up the
monitoring so I know whichemployees and which stores are
actually asking it or not.
Brian Sheehan (24:40):
That's amazing.
If there's one thing that youcould snap your fingers and
change about your stores, whatwould it be?
Bennett Maxwell (24:49):
We're adding quite a few products and I wish
we would have added those fromthe beginning.
How often does somebody want tocome and buy a 500 calorie
cookie?
It's not every day, so how doyou get them in with other
products?
Right now we're adding dirtysodas, which is like a Dr Pepper
with a coconut cream and araspberry puree.
I think 20 stores just wentlive with that, but we had to
(25:11):
retrofit them.
And now we're doing ediblecookie dough and ice cream
sandwiches.
So I would snap my fingers andhave all of the stores up with
the new products that we'rereally excited about.
Brian Sheehan (25:21):
You talk about how often somebody is buying and
consuming that big caloriecookie, and I think about my
experience as a kid the onlytime you had a giant cookie was
when you had one for yourbirthday that you were going to
share with your friends and Ithink about how far we've come
since then, because every time Igo buy a Dirty Dough there's a
number of customers in the store.
(25:42):
I've never been in one whenit's completely empty, and it
makes me think people are buyingthese cookies a lot more often
than I would have guessed.
Bennett Maxwell (25:50):
Yeah, but there's also the.
I don't know where are youbased?
Out of which store have youseen?
Brian Sheehan (25:55):
Cincinnati, ohio, but I mean I travel all over
the country and you guys arepopping up everywhere, so I
think the last one I was in wasin.
Bennett Maxwell (26:03):
Dallas.
Okay, yeah, we have a handfulin Dallas, but, like Cincinnati,
several million population, youknow, and within a door, dash,
delivery radius, we, you know,you have several hundred
thousand people.
So I still think that and yougo into a store and it's busy,
but I don't think we have a tonof repeat.
I mean, I know our repeatnumbers and it's not crazy high
(26:24):
because of it's just a, you know, it's it's more of a novelty
item.
So we're moving more towardseveryday items on the dessert
side, but while keeping itcookie inspired.
Brian Sheehan (26:34):
I guess talk about your growth goals Now that
you're transitioning into thisnew role.
Where do you want to see DirtyDough be over the next five
years.
Bennett Maxwell (26:44):
So we need to open up another 350 that we've
already sold and haven't openedyet.
And there's a lot because we'repivoting to a little bit more
of the dessert concepts.
We're talking with a lot ofother brands to bring in
different types of dessertproducts, which is super fun.
My goals, more on the personalside, is Craveworthy's other
(27:04):
brands.
Nobody's really pushed them tosell franchises, so I would love
to get all of those otherbrands going.
It works really well becauseit's a whole platform.
So the Dirty Dough owners inDallas maybe want to expand, but
there's no more room for thedirty does, right, so now you
could put a Genghis grill inthere or a wing it on or a bud
(27:25):
long.
I would love to get successfulfranchisees to own multiple
franchises in their sameterritory because typically,
again, if it's only one brand,you fill up your territory.
Then you're like now what do Ido?
Do I move?
Do I hire somebody?
But this way it allows you tostay local and continue to
expand through.
Brian Sheehan (27:44):
So because of the way the menu was built from the
beginning and now it'stransitioning, but you've got
this relatively large radiusaround existing Dirty Dough's
that five stores can service alarge metropolitan area.
Is that going to change overtime as you massage and add more
(28:04):
items on the menu?
Bennett Maxwell (28:06):
Maybe probably not.
There's so much territory inthe country that, like what I've
heard several dozen times oncomplaints about our competitors
crumble, is they oversoldterritories?
And I think we did the samething here in Utah, such a
saturated market.
We looked at the competition,saw how many stores they had
opened, and opened a few lessthan them, but it was just still
(28:29):
too much.
So we want to be overlycautious on providing more area
than less and then the strategyis okay.
After a year or so goes by.
If that store is crushing itand they want to open up a
second territory in their market, go ahead.
But what we don't want to do isthrow somebody else two miles
down the street and then havethem compete.
Brian Sheehan (28:51):
That sounds like great advice.
What's some other advice youwould give to someone that wants
to start a food business orjump into the retail industry?
Bennett Maxwell (29:00):
Yeah, I would get some good advisors and if I
can give you the practicaladvice on that real quick,
because I didn't even know whatan advisor was a few years ago
these are not a board ofdirectors.
They make no decisions in yourcompany, they're just advisors.
And the industry standard toget an advisor is you give them
a half a percent to a percentand a half of equity.
(29:21):
So when I did this, my companywas worth nothing.
I didn't even rent one store.
We were losing money because Istarted hiring corporate
employees and anyways, I got thefirst guy to be my senior
advisor, gave him a percent anda half His company IPO it was
called Infospace for $31 billion.
So I'm like, how the hell wouldthis guy help me for percent
and a half of nothing?
Well, why did he do it?
(29:41):
Because I pitched him on myidea, right, and I sold him on
that.
And then he brought in thesecond advisor, steve Hart, the
owner of the largest propertymanagement franchise in the
nation.
So now I have a franchiseexpert, I have a business expert
and I kind of started with that.
I also hired an experienced CEO, which you can't always do
right off the get-go, but youcan with these advisors and the
expectation is like an hour aweek roughly.
(30:03):
And the cool thing is you alsoset them up subject to vesting a
two-year vesting schedule everysix months, a quarter of their
equity vests.
And what that means is if Ihire somebody as an advisor
which I did and I gave him apercent equity and he was an
all-star for a month and a halfand then he stopped responding
to phone calls, I just sent himan email and said, hey, sorry,
it's not working out.
(30:24):
He doesn't get any of hisequity because six months didn't
go by.
He doesn't get any of hisequity because six months didn't
go by, he didn't fulfill hisagreement.
So you can get these all-starsfor very little percentage
points of your company and stillsubject it to a time-based
performance.
I think that's the biggest thingbecause, aside from the advice
you're going to get, if you'retrying to expand and raise money
, sell franchises whatever.
Nobody wants to invest inBennett Maxwell.
(30:45):
Nobody wants to buy a franchisefrom Bennett Maxwell, but maybe
they do from John Richardsbecause he's done a $30 billion
company, or Steve Hart or a JillSummer Hayes, who's the founder
of Maui Waui.
You know our current CEO hasbeen the CEO of Jimmy John's
during their rapid growth.
Those are the types of peoplethat build confidence in your
prospects.
So, aside from the advice, it'sa very good leverage point from
a sales perspective.
(31:06):
It's a very good leverage pointfrom a sales perspective.
Brian Sheehan (31:08):
That's incredible .
What great advice.
How many locations are therecurrently?
Bennett Maxwell (31:14):
Around 80.
I think there's 70 brick andmortar stores and 18 food
trailers.
Brian Sheehan (31:23):
And we have, I don't know, another 30 or so
under construction right now.
How many more will open in 2025?
75.
And you talked about the sizerequirement.
I just want to get through acouple of the nuts and bolts
here so you can go as small as500 square feet.
1200 square feet is kind of max.
Bennett Maxwell (31:39):
Yeah, I mean, but it's sometimes it's hard to
find spots, even 1200 squarefeet, but yeah, I mean, I would
say 800, if you found 800,perfect.
However, it's just really hard.
So, yeah, some some franchiseeswill sign leases 14, 1500
square feet and then throw likea little office space in the
back or something like that.
We try to get them to be ableto double utilize it if they
(32:00):
have another business orsomething like that.
Brian Sheehan (32:01):
Okay, and the plant?
It's a hundred percentfranchise or are you going to
open some corporate locationsgoing forward, Do you think?
I think we have eight corporatelocations.
Bennett Maxwell (32:10):
We're not going to open up a ton more.
Eight is a good amount becausewe do have them spread across
four different states.
So now we could test, you knowagain we were adding dirty sodas
.
Well, we tested those first,you know, and cookie dough and
coffee and all those things.
So not a big expansion plan onthe corporate side.
Brian Sheehan (32:26):
Okay, code-tenants, you talked about
Target, costco, so groceryanchored centers sound like a
good fit.
Any other?
Bennett Maxwell (32:33):
25 to 55 year old females.
Where do they go?
So Starbucks up there, right,that's a great one to be next to
as well.
Brian Sheehan (32:41):
I wonder if, oddly like, being next to
fitness is somehow a goodco-tenancy.
Bennett Maxwell (32:48):
I think.
So we gained a big fitnessfollowing in Arizona.
For whatever reason,bodybuilders after their shows,
this is the cheat meal.
They don't care, they wantsomething huge and delicious and
filled with calories,especially if they're bulking.
So yeah, we've done CrossFitshows and they love that.
So that's not something that wesuggest the franchisees per se,
(33:09):
but it is something that I have, I guess, seen anecdotally work
.
Brian Sheehan (33:15):
And then are there any other location
requirements that you haven'talready talked about?
Bennett Maxwell (33:21):
Yeah, population as well.
Like we need ideally 100,000people.
Now there's stores doing goodin populations less than that
thousand people.
Now there's stores doing goodin populations less than that.
And I'm talking like if it's anisolated spot, right, and it's
not Plano Texas, but that's partof the Dallas Metro.
I'm talking Chickasha, oklahoma, with 15,000 people, nothing
within a 30 minute drive, causewe tried out that market and
(33:43):
just you have to have 10% of thefreaking population buy from
you every month.
Brian Sheehan (33:50):
So population is a big one.
So you really, you know, keepin mind a hundred thousand
population.
Bennett Maxwell (33:56):
When we're going to metros, it's, it's.
I shoot for 200,000.
So if it's a million, you knowwe'll put four or five stores,
but kind of the lowest we'll goon.
The smaller ones is what we're.
We're.
We're typically right around ahundred thousand.
Brian Sheehan (34:13):
And Ben, what's the easiest way to submit a, you
know, a shopping center, likeif I've got a shopping center
with a space available orthere's a broker that's
listening to the podcast thatwants to submit a site.
They think Dirty Dough would dowell there.
Bennett Maxwell (34:21):
Who should?
Brian Sheehan (34:21):
they send it to.
Bennett Maxwell (34:23):
Our construction and site approval
guy Seth Anderson, seth atDirtyDoughcom and site approval
guy Seth Anderson, seth atdirtydoughcom.
Send them to him and then kindof back to the.
What he will do is he wouldforward those on to the
franchisee Cause.
Again, we try it.
We're trying to keep an armlengths distance from the real
estate side, sure, and we arealso very particular on the
(34:44):
helping franchisees hire andguide on that because we don't
want to be confused as a jointemployer Anyways.
But yeah, seth would pass thaton to that local franchisee and
just connect them that way andthen the broker would be working
with the franchisee directly.
Brian Sheehan (34:58):
Okay, and then maybe the last question is there
.
You talked a little bit aboutthe build out, but is there
anything unusual in terms ofHVAC, electrical water?
It's got one oven.
Bennett Maxwell (35:09):
No, and that oven doesn't require a hood.
So it's pretty.
Yeah, it's pretty basic.
I forgot their electricalrequirements.
I don't know if we've ever raninto it, because it's one oven,
I mean, that's a what is it?
220 volt, and then we have afreezer that's, you know, pulls
quite a bit of energy as well.
So you have walk-in freezer,walk-in Yep, and that's kind of
it.
Yeah, it's.
Our build-outs have been quick,they've been low cost, which is
(35:32):
really nice, cause it's justkind of a counter you put in
your plumbing and you put inyour electrical and then a wall
Throw in a bathroom, if itdoesn't already have one, and
call it good.
Brian Sheehan (35:42):
Low cost and fast .
I mean that sounds like recipefor success right there.
Yeah, I like the pun.
Well, bennett, it was greatspeaking with you today.
Thank you for joining me onRetail Intel.
All right, be sure to check outDirty Dough in person and on
Instagram at Dirty Dough.
Whether you're an aspiring realestate mogul, a seasoned pro or
(36:04):
simply curious about the placeswhere we shop, dine, play and
work, this podcast is yourall-access pass to the world of
commercial real estate.
Connect with me on LinkedIn and, if you're interested in being
a part of the Retail Intelpodcast, send a message to
nationalaccounts atphillipsedisoncom.
If you want to hear more aboutnew and expanding brands like
(36:25):
Dirty Dough, keep tuning in toRetail Intel and please
subscribe, follow, like andrepost.
Talk to you next time.
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