June 5, 2025 • 31 mins
Join Brian Sheehan and special guest Michael Ruvolo, Co-Chief Executive Officer of X-Golf, on the latest episode of Retail Intel!
Dive into an insightful discussion about the ins and outs of retail and uncover how X-Golf is redefining the game. Whether you're in the industry or simply curious about the innovative intersection of retail and sports, this episode is for you.
🎧 Tune in now and elevate your understanding of retail today!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brian Sheehan (00:04):
Welcome to Retail Intel, the podcast where we
dive deep into the dynamic worldof commercial real estate.
I'm your host, brian Sheehan,and I'm thrilled to be your
guide on this journey throughthe bustling streets of retail,
the aisles of shopping centersand the world of commercial
property investment.
Today, I'm excited to haveMichael Ruvalo, president and
(00:25):
CEO of X-Golf America with us.
Michael has an inspiring storyof entrepreneurship and
innovation in the experientialretail space.
X-golf America is known for itscutting-edge indoor golf
simulators and entertainmentvenues combining technology and
fun to create an exceptionalexperience for golf enthusiasts.
(00:48):
I'm eager to learn more abouthis journey and the story behind
X-Golf America.
Well, Michael, I'd love tostart with your background.
Can you tell me more about yourcareer journey and what led you
to become president and CEO ofX-Golf America?
What led you to becomepresident and CEO of X-Golf
America?
Michael Ruvolo (01:05):
Yeah, so I came from typically a sports
background in general.
I started my career off aftercollege in minor league baseball
, minor league sports so out inthe western slope of Colorado,
came back over, did somecorporate finance for a little
bit and then I ended up back insports again with the athletic
(01:30):
department at Colorado StateUniversity and a buddy of mine
told me hey, there's this reallycool indoor golf thing.
I think you should check it out.
So I got in the car, drove overto Grand Junction actually at
the time, colorado and I checkedit out.
I thought it was a really coolconcept and talked to a friend
of mine who was working with meat the time and said hey, what
do you think about us startingthis up, getting going on?
It Made my first email toX-Golf America at the time it
(01:51):
was a new franchise and got myfirst store opened in May of
2019.
So my background started thereand when I originally called
them, I was like, hey, I want todo a store in Fort Collins,
colorado.
What does it look like?
I would like to eventually domultiple stores.
And you know they said, sure,that's great, we have another
(02:15):
opportunity to do some largerinvestment in the company
because we are going to takethis to a franchise model that
year, and so I proceeded to dothat as well and at the same
time, in the next so six or fiveyears, I ended up opening five
stores, including that one,obviously in Fort Collins, which
at the time was the 13th storein America opened.
And then, when it came time thissummer, this past summer I was
(02:38):
approached that there was achange in leadership potentially
coming and would I beinterested in that position.
And I said, sure, I just needto understand what it is and
what it entails.
And yeah, I'm definitelyinterested.
And came November of this yearthe board of directors made that
decision that they were goingto move forward, with me being
(02:59):
the CEO and president.
And here we are six monthslater, I guess right.
So it's been a little bit of awhirlwind.
It's a new position for me, butI've been managing five
locations.
Obviously I've treated that asmy own little tiny franchise.
Now I've obviously come into abigger scale with 130 locations
and growing a lot faster than Iwas five.
(03:21):
So that's kind of how I got tothis position and it's been a
fun journey, but I think it'sthe future does look pretty
bright.
Brian Sheehan (03:28):
Yeah, it's incredible and congratulations.
By the way, what inspired you?
What made you want to take onthis role?
I mean, presumably you're doingwell with the locations that
you have.
What was it about the role?
That sounded interesting andyou know what's your vision, I
guess, for the role both asbeing a franchisor and
franchisee.
Michael Ruvolo (03:48):
Yeah, it's a really good question.
So what inspired me was I am,like, the most competitive
person in the world, like I justwant to be the best at
everything I've done.
I played Division One collegebaseball and our team wasn't the
best, but every day we thoughtthat we could be the best Right
day we thought that we could bethe best Right, and so that's
kind of how I grew up.
That's the mentality I grew upand my stores were doing
(04:11):
extremely well and that's why Ithink I was approached in large
part for this position.
I was doing great, I could sitback and golf every day outside
if I wanted to and I wouldn'thave to worry about a thing.
But what inspired me was mostlyis the success of other people
really fuels me, the success ofother people within my
(04:31):
organization.
So if I have five stores of myown, the success of each
individual location reallyfueled me.
So I thought shoot man, on agrander scale, let's do 130
locations, and the success ofeach individual location will
fuel me that much more and makeit that much more enjoyable and,
(04:52):
to be honest, it really has.
I have now taken a step backfrom my locations because on a
grander scale I have a muchbigger responsibility.
My locations can run.
I have a very good team that'sbeen established for the last
five years.
They can run on their own.
They don't really need myassistance and my I guess, quote
, unquote expertise.
(05:12):
That my success, I hope, bleedsinto the new stores and the old
stores that might've not seenthe level of support that they
wanted in the past.
And that was my main goal when Icame into this.
It was, hey, how do I get allthese stores?
For the first four months waswe're going to focus on the
current franchisees that we haveand how do I get them up to the
(05:35):
level of success that my storesare seeing?
Because, at the end of the day,if we have a store that is not
as successful as the others,that's what people are going to
look at.
Right, when we want to expandand we want to do new stores,
they're going to say, well, thisstore and so-and-so is not
doing well.
They don't really care that thestore in Denver or the store in
Fort Collins is doing extremelywell.
(05:55):
They're only going to look atwhat's the worst case scenario
for themselves.
And so my goal was hey, let'sget as many stores as we
currently have.
Let's hit a pause almost on theexpansion because we expanded
so fast.
I mean 2019, I was the 13thstore in America.
Now we have 130 in 2025.
That goes with a three-month tosix-month stoppage during COVID
(06:19):
, right, and I'm sure we'll getinto that.
But that was my goal and so nowthat we've got, we feel we're
doing extremely well throughwhat we call our busy time being
January, february, march.
Essentially we are up 33% yearover year on same store sales,
which is a crazy jump for us.
But to that point, you know, mystores might be down a little
(06:42):
bit compared to what they are.
I'm okay with that.
As now the CEO of X GolfAmerica, my success is now going
to be judged off the entirecompany.
I don't really want to focusnecessarily on Colorado stores
or Nebraska stores, but I stillgive them the focus.
But now it's on the 130 stores.
So getting them up to viability, getting them up to success and
(07:03):
then from there now we're goingto start looking at expansion.
So we're in a really good spot.
So now we're going to reallystart hitting that expansion
meter.
Brian Sheehan (07:12):
Well, so X-Golf America.
How do you explain it to peoplewho are unfamiliar with your
brand and the concept?
Michael Ruvolo (07:20):
Yeah, I think it's a very I've heard it
described in many different waysAt the end of the day, it is a
rugged environment forcompetitive nature of both men
and women.
With a bar right, I mean, thisis what we do.
We have a lot of fun, we have alot of competitions,
(07:45):
competitions, and it's also anenvironment where you don't have
to feel pressured atnecessarily the golf course,
where you have a time clock onyou right, so you better get
that round completed in four anda half hours, or the person
behind you is going to get mador the marshal is going to get
mad at you.
You come into X-Golf, that bayis your bay for whatever time
you decided that you're going toplay it on.
So there's no pressure in it.
(08:05):
We get a lot of beginners butwe also get a lot of very, very
good golfers.
We have national tournaments, wegot national leagues, so it's a
competitive environment, but atthe same time I equate it
similarly to bowling mixed withjust golf.
It's a golf bowling alley, butyou just have really a lot of
fun.
It's kind of new age, it's likea big kids arcade almost as
(08:28):
well.
So that's what we kind ofstrive for.
We're in the entertainmentbusiness.
We're in the customer servicebusiness.
We're never going to be ratedas the best golf course in
America, but what we can be iswe have amazing technology
provided to us so we have anopportunity to be the best
customer service people inAmerica.
So we strive for that.
We strive for it to be almostlike your hometown bar that you
(08:51):
guys can go and hang out andhave fun at Not necessarily a
country club vibe, but more ofan all-inclusive Everybody can
come in, have fun, no dresscodes, stuff like that.
Brian Sheehan (09:03):
It's interesting.
A friend of mine and there's aneighborhood pub down the street
sometimes refers to this pub askind of a country club, like
environment, and there've beentimes I've been in there.
You know, having a beer,shooting the breeze, thinking
gosh, it'd be so fun if therewas a simulator in here.
You know, take a few swings,work on your swing, your swing,
(09:25):
whatever it is, but you knowit's still so.
The indoor golf simulator thenyou still pretty new.
This is a interesting niche andI'm curious what some of your
biggest challenges have beentaking it from one location to
130 locations, or five or 13,whenever you started.
Michael Ruvolo (09:46):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So the biggest challenge wassimulators are different.
Right, there's a differentsimulator everywhere everybody
goes.
But that's why we as a groupeverybody that's involved with
X-Golf did X-Golf because oursimulators are different.
But we strive for the shortgame aspect of things you can
fully put out on our simulators.
Our short game is justsignificantly better than every
(10:09):
other simulator.
The only area that I would saythat we probably lack in right
now which we are improving eventhis week and next week we're
actually rolling out a newupdate is the lack of courses.
Compared to, say, the Trackmansor the Foresights, they just
have access to a little bit morecourses right now, but we are
improving that and by the end ofthe year I see a significant
increase in courses for us.
(10:30):
But the hardest part wasexplaining to people what X-Golf
is, because there's so many momand pop shots that come up
right now as far as simulators,and they all have, you know,
some kind of simulator in theirname, and so we get people to
this day, five and a half yearslater, of opening a store that,
oh, I thought this was a golfretail store.
Well, we don't really do a lotof retail.
(10:51):
We're essentially a golf coursewith a bar that you don't ever
have to travel to because thecart person is always at your
hole, right?
So it is that explanation.
We need to do a better job on abrand awareness factor in the
nation and we're starting toreally develop that.
The brand awareness isincreasing in the United States.
We're in 38 states right now,including Washington DC, which I
(11:13):
know we'll get into in a littlebit, but we are expanding and
we're essentially a global brand.
X-golf America is its own armof it, but X-Golf was started in
South Korea, but they're notgoing to do a lot of brand
awareness right here in America,right?
So it's our job in America andCanada to do that brand
awareness right here in America,right?
So we're good.
It's our job in America andCanada to do that brand
awareness, and so that is ournumber one marketing goal right
(11:35):
now.
Brian Sheehan (11:35):
You mentioned the number of courses you can play.
I'm curious how many do youhave now?
What's the goal?
How many courses do you want toultimately be able to play?
Michael Ruvolo (11:45):
Yeah, right now we have about 50.
We've got Pebble Beach, we gotSt Andrews, we have Bethpage,
which is the site of the RyderCup this year.
We've got Oakmont, which is thesite of the US Open this year.
So it's actually a big year forus.
As far as the courses on oursimulators, we've got PGA
National, we've got a bunch ofPGA courses as well, but we also
(12:06):
have a large collective ofSouth Korean courses because of
our technology coming from SouthKorea.
But to answer your question, thenumber of courses, I'd like as
many as possible.
I just want to give ourcustomers the options to choose
whatever course they want.
But at the end of the day, themost heavily played courses are
Pebble Beach, st Andrews.
We have Kapalua.
That's a very, very heavilyplayed course as well.
(12:28):
But so I would say the goal isby the end of this year to be up
upwards of 60, 65, and thencontinue to grow that with our
Korean counterparts they'rehelping us develop, that we do
have a development team as well,but they'll help us develop
that I would feel comfortable ifwe get anywhere between 100 and
150 courses while continuing togrow.
(12:48):
But once we get, we're going tostrive to get to that point
within the next probably threeyears, two to three years.
Brian Sheehan (12:55):
Thinking about the design of each location, and
you've been involved withX-Golf for a number of years.
I'm curious how you approachthe design of it.
I'm really thinking about howhas the design changed over time
?
Has it changed much since youfirst became involved with it?
(13:16):
Has it evolved in anysignificant way?
Michael Ruvolo (13:19):
Yeah, I think the answer to that is we leave
the design of each store we havein the past up to the
franchisees, right?
So like the franchisees canpick their design, they give it
to us for approval.
We're going to help them withthat, because the successful
stores, the high, high,successful stores that we've
seen, they don't have likeprivate rooms per se.
(13:41):
Everybody wants to be togetherin this environment.
That for leagues andtournaments, that they could see
what the other bay is doing,they can see what everybody else
is doing.
They're interacting witheverybody else.
You can still block them off,like with curtains or whatever,
for private parties and stufflike that.
They only want to rent outthree simulators, but we don't
really want to have someexclusive area and in the past
(14:03):
the past group, before I got inhere, my predecessor, would say
that they kind of wanted to doas many simulators as possible
in each location.
I have a different philosophyin that aspect.
So I think that when I look atthe numbers of each store, and
without getting into thespecifics of the numbers, the
best stores reside within thatsix to eight simulator range.
(14:25):
Mostly, to be honest with you,seven has been a perfect number
for simulators.
That either keeps your rentdown, which I'm sure you've
talked about a lot in the pastwith this being a retail podcast
but keeping that rent down,keeping your overhead down,
while also maximizing yourrevenue.
And the maximization of revenueis having some kind of demand
(14:46):
for your product.
If you get up into nine, 10, 11simulators, it's hard to have
that demand, especially in thesummer when our numbers do
significantly drop because weare a little bit seasonal but
we're a lot seasonal, to behonest with you, but we are
making strides to improve that.
But you don't want yoursimulators just sitting there
not being used during the summer.
Which seven simulators youmight get used, seven during
(15:09):
June or July, maybe once ortwice a month at the same time.
But you know, obviously comeOctober through March, we
usually have about a three-daywaiting period before you can
get into our facility.
So if you don't make aappointment out three days in
advance, you're very hardpressed to get a time.
So my philosophy has been keepit to that six to eight
simulators, keep it between, youknow, 5,500 to 7,500 square
(15:35):
feet, keep the bar a relativelygood size.
There's not a ton of peoplejust coming in to drink beer and
sit at the bar and that's thelessons that I learned
personally on a franchisee level, right?
So my first store had 40 seatsaround the bar and I was like,
oh, we're going to get people inhere for bars and blah, blah,
blah.
It just didn't happen.
And that's okay.
(15:55):
That store does very well.
But I made the adjustment inthe next store to make the bar a
lot smaller while not takingaway the type of space that I
needed for taps.
So I still have 12 taps, butthe bar is eight seats in Denver
.
And then I adjust it from there, and Omaha is a little
different, colorado Springs evena little bit different.
(16:16):
And now I'm using that knowledge, and my team is using that
knowledge, to go hey, this iswhat we've seen successful in
the past.
Where do you put the barcompared to the simulators?
When you walk in the door, youwant the bar and the simulators
to hit you in the face.
So you want people to know whatit is when they walk in the
door, because a lot of ourwindows need to be blacked out
because of the sun affecting thepicture on the screen.
(16:39):
So you want that bar and thatsimulator to hit you in the face
.
Then people walk in and go.
Okay, I know what this is now,so it's a good concept.
Brian Sheehan (16:49):
Do you find there's a substantial portion of
your customer base that viewsthis as a neighborhood pub?
I mean, do you get people thatjust come in that just want to
sit around talk about golf?
Watch golf on TV, maybe, anddon't use the simulators?
Michael Ruvolo (17:06):
Yes, I would say that probably ranges by
location and, to be honest withyou, the involvement of the
owner of the franchisee or thegeneral manager, and what kind
of relationship he has with hislocal people.
At my stores we strive for thatcommunity-based relationship
and we're trying to breed thatamongst all the rest of the
franchisees, and they're doing agreat job of it.
(17:27):
Right now I have probably 10%to 15% of our customers that'll
come in and just hang out, watchbeer and watch other people
play.
So that's a great thing to have, obviously, but at the end of
the day, your main revenue isgoing to come from those
simulators.
Brian Sheehan (17:40):
Sure, I'm curious .
You talked a little bit aboutretail and we obviously focus a
lot on this podcast about that.
How important are the retailsales in any store's location,
and do you want this to be aplace where people are coming in
for club fittings?
You know they're going to buyequipment, balls, apparel, those
(18:02):
types of things.
Michael Ruvolo (18:03):
Yeah, we don't heavily focus on it.
To be honest with you, it'sprobably about 5% of our
business, depending on the store, depending on the pro that you
have for club fittings and stufflike that.
We just do custom club fittingsat% of our business, depending
on the store, depending on thepro that you have for club
fittings and stuff like that.
We just do custom club fittingsat most of our locations If
they have a pro on staff thatgives lessons and does club
fittings.
I have a pro on staff in two ofmy five locations.
(18:24):
So no, they can move back andforth to different locations and
stuff like that, but I thinkthat we probably have.
You know, lesson sales areabout 2% of our business, so
they're not a huge part of ourbusiness, but lesson sales drive
everything else within ourbusiness.
So if you get someone in forlessons, they're going to see
the environment, they're goingto see that they want to play
(18:44):
league, they're going to seethat they want to play
tournaments.
They're going to see that theywant to have just a lot of fun.
As far as the retail goes, wedon't do a whole lot of retail.
I'm wearing a hat that I boughtat my store right now, but
we've done a little bit ofretail.
The ones that I see that do thebest are probably hats and
gloves, and we get our glovesfrom a manufacturer through our
(19:04):
corporate office, but peopleforget their gloves and they'll
come in.
Hey, I need a glove, and okay,we got those gloves for you here
.
I think some stores try to dothe bad birdies and the shirts
that are embroidered with X-Golf.
It's a tough business.
You know that Buying all thatoverhead is always a tough ask
for some of these stores,because then the models change
(19:25):
and the styles change every year.
And because we are, you know,these stores also are obligated
for a royalty which, and becausewe are, you know, these stores
also are obligated for a royaltywhich.
Our royalty is 7% and then a 1%marketing fee.
So 8% of everything that theysell out of their store has to
go to the corporate office.
So when you have to put thosethings on sale, it cuts down on
your margin and it just takes upspace in the facility.
(19:46):
So I encourage it to have it,but I also encourage it to be on
a limited basis, just becauseof the space.
I want the space to be filledup with those simulators because
they are not cheap and that istheir biggest investment for
each of these franchisees.
But it is also good to havefunny shirts that are tailored
(20:06):
towards your store, and we givethem the freedom to do that as
well.
Brian Sheehan (20:10):
I wanted to ask you about.
So when I'm at the drivingrange, I see more and more
people integrating technologyinto their sessions, and I'm
curious how you think about that.
Is this it's not necessarilycompetition for what you're
(20:31):
providing, but maybe in someways it is.
How do you think about it?
Michael Ruvolo (20:34):
Yeah, with the launch monitors.
The launch monitors is a greatquestion, right, the technology
aspect of the launch monitorshas only grown.
Golf, and you know, I thinkit's a benefit to us If you want
to go out.
I belong to a country club aswell, so I'm not one of these
guys that says, oh no, you can'tgo outside anymore because I'm
(20:54):
the indoor golf guy and I golfoutside all the time.
If the weather's great, yeah, Iwould definitely prefer to golf
outside.
We all get that, we allunderstand that, but we have to
find ways to drive them in.
As far as the data analyticspart of things on the launch
monitor, I think that that'swhere sports has gone over the
(21:15):
last 15, 20 years.
You know my involvement in prosports since then has ever since
.
My whole career has beeninvolved with data analytics of
swings or baseball and that'swhat they use.
Everything is Everything isdata analytics driven.
Everybody's got a dataanalytics team.
We have a data analytics team.
We use a data analytics systemto find locations for
franchisees, so I'm all for asmuch data as you want.
(21:38):
Now we do have a driving rangeon our simulators and it could
provide data for you, and wehave an app that hooks up.
We're improving that app.
We need to improve that app Bethe first person to say that so
that actually gives you correctdata for that instance of your,
your range session.
If people want to come in andfind their their numbers, they
don't just have to remember themin their head.
(21:58):
They're going to have them ontheir app or they're going to
have it on a piece of paper.
We have to figure out ways toprint that out for them.
But I'm all for launch monitors.
They're great, you know, Ithink, without getting too much
into it, but the biggest.
I think we'll probably get intoit a little bit, but you know,
our biggest supporter, in anlike a you know weird way, the
(22:20):
biggest thing for golf wasTopgolf.
In my opinion, for the, thenon-outdoor side of golf, right,
topgolf is fantastic and I theydeserve so much.
They are a fantasticorganization that we strive to
be half as good as them.
That would be awesome.
But they've done such a goodjob of identifying what the
average golfer wants.
They just want fun.
(22:41):
I mean, my wife loved Topgolfbecause she can barely hit a
ball, but she'll go out thereand she'll miss a ball, but
it'll go into some random holeand she gets 10 points for it,
right?
So those kind of interactivegames For sure, with the launch
monitors.
We're talking about the very,very dialed in golfers, and heck
, we want those guys ascustomers too.
(23:01):
And we do get those guys in thewinter, especially right In the
colder areas or even in some ofour warmer locations.
I bet you they get them in thesummer because, to be frank, I
don't know if I want to playwithin 115 degrees in Dallas,
texas, in June or July.
That's a tough ask, I think,when you can play 18 holes in an
hour inside or you can go sweatto death outside and not see
(23:25):
the cart grow for five holes.
So it's a tough ask, but that'show we have to combat it a
little bit.
So it's a tough ask, but that'show we have to combat it a
little bit.
Brian Sheehan (23:32):
Thinking about the future.
Where do you want to see X-GolfAmerica five years from now?
Michael Ruvolo (23:39):
What are your growth goals.
Yeah, we expect to be at 300franchise locations with before,
so January of 2031, right, soJanuary 2031,.
We expect to be at 300locations.
We're currently at 130, withanother 15 signed up, and we
also would expect to be anywherebetween 20 to 35 franchise
(24:01):
owned locations, which we arecurrently at five.
So we do see a very expansivegrowth, very quick, expansive
growth, very quick.
These simulator stores can getup between anywhere between six
to nine months, depending on,you know, liquor licenses and
stuff like that.
But that's where we kind of seethe future going.
Then, from there, we hope to bein all 50 states by then as
(24:22):
well.
So we got another 12 to go.
Brian Sheehan (24:25):
That's awesome.
What advice would you give tosomeone looking to start a
business in the call itentertainment or sports retail
sector?
Michael Ruvolo (24:36):
When I looked at it and that's where I can give
my advice is how I did it.
I looked at where can I havethe freedom to do a little bit
of what I wanted while alsogetting the best technology?
The reason I did the franchisemodel is because X-Colf has the
best technology and I also wantto know that I'm going to get a
support.
Because what am I paying aroyalty for if I'm not going to
(24:57):
get a support from the franchiseitself?
If they're just going to openthe doors and say, hey, good
luck, pay me my money at the endof the month, I don't think
that that's fair, and so that'swhy my focus was how can I
support these franchisees?
Right when I got in here.
But I also want to look at theindustry.
Like, what industry are yougoing into?
I want to say I got a little bitlucky with X-Golf, with the
(25:20):
golf industry essentially takingoff during COVID.
I mean it was doing wellbeforehand, but then COVID hits
and bam, I can't get a tee timeoutside, so I go inside.
It's wild, but that has helpedthe golf industry immensely.
But I just want to look at doyour research on the competition
.
I've researched everycompetitor alive before I opened
(25:44):
my X-Golfs and I could do thatresearch again, and it takes a
couple of weeks, but it's notthat hard.
Go visit the sites.
Make sure it's something thatyou want to dedicate your time
to, too.
I'm all in.
If it was this or a McDonald'sor whatever, I was going to be
all in, and I don't thinkthere's ever a get rich quick
(26:06):
scheme.
I really don't, and I thinkthat some people might have this
concept that I'm just going toopen the doors and let somebody
else do it, and I really like todo it myself.
I like to be in there.
I was pouring beers for twoyears and I was, you know,
cleaning bathrooms and sweepingfloors, so you know as much all
in as you can be.
I think that's the biggest caseas well that we've seen for
(26:28):
people to be successful.
Brian Sheehan (26:30):
I'm curious how much of an impact, if any, the
Tiger Woods Golf League indoorstadium simulator has had on
your business.
Michael Ruvolo (26:42):
To be 100% honest, significant impact.
They don't use the samesimulators as us, which is fine,
but every time that one ofthose I enjoyed it, by the way,
I really did enjoy it.
I think that they did anamazing job with it.
They got the players to buy in,which was amazing they
definitely did.
Every time that it aired onESPN the next day, we would have
(27:05):
20 to 25 inquiries of newfranchisees on our website.
We weren't doing any marketingat the time of trying to get new
franchisees.
We would have 20 to 25 the nextday.
Every other day we're gettingyou know between two to five, to
be honest with you, but everytime that aired, we would have
20 to 25.
And so it is a great thing forgolf and a big driver.
(27:28):
Huge driver and shoot Tiger andRory.
Those guys are on another levelof smart than me, so I'm not
ashamed that I will tail anybodythat is smarter than me.
I am definitely not thesmartest person in X-Golf
America.
I have surrounded myself withvery, very smart people that are
very, very good at their jobs,and I think that that's what
(27:49):
every good leader should striveto do is admit when they're not
the smartest person in the world, and I really, really feel that
way.
Our team is amazing.
We're a smaller team right now,but we are getting bigger, but
they really are some geniuses.
I just hope they don't listento this, actually, because they
might come at me a little bitmore, but no, it's great and,
(28:10):
yeah, it was great for us.
Brian Sheehan (28:12):
Michael, before I let you go here, I want to run
through just some real estatequestions with you quickly.
Please Remind me again what arethe size requirements for an
X-Golf?
Michael Ruvolo (28:23):
We strive to stay between 5,500 and 7,500
square feet, between six toeight simulators.
We can finagle them to fit inanywhere you want, pretty much
with a bar, and then just theability to obtain a liquor
license is kind of ourrequirements.
We also like a parking lotclose because 95% of the people
bring their clubs.
So a parking lot close isreally good, so people can just
(28:46):
access your store with theirclubs very easily.
Brian Sheehan (28:49):
And you're opening both corporate and
franchise locations.
Michael Ruvolo (28:53):
Yep, yep, we're currently have four opened
franchise franchise or locations, with one on the way, and then
we currently are as wellexpanding more on the franchisee
side of things right now.
In the next two to three yearswe'll probably open more
franchise or stores as well, butcurrent focus would be on
franchisee stores.
Brian Sheehan (29:13):
And then, who do you look for in terms of
co-tenants?
What do you want to be near?
Michael Ruvolo (29:18):
Yeah, I think that we've seen a lot of success
in a relatively close proximityto Topgolf I know I've
mentioned them before as well asmovie theaters have been a very
, very high success rate beingaround them, and I think the
reason for that is people walkby and before they go in the
movie they come into X-Golf andthey're like, oh, I didn't know
what this was, but now we got it.
So that goes back to our brandawareness thing.
(29:39):
And then big box stores.
You know Target's great becauseyou get a lot of walking
traffic.
We have a system called Buxtonand I'm sure you're aware of
Buxton, but we use Buxton aswell to tell where the success
we see, the success of stores,and where the next successful
store is compared to thosecharacteristics, and a lot of
mobile data and stuff like that.
It's kind of creepy but it's.
(30:00):
It's really good data.
Brian Sheehan (30:01):
I imagine you're looking for, you know, a lot of
golfers in a trade area.
Maybe not, but are there anyother demographic requirements
that you're looking for?
Michael Ruvolo (30:11):
Yeah, golfers, I think between the ages of 25
and 55, with the good amount ofan expendable income.
Obviously, because it is funentertainment.
It is cheaper than outdoor golf, but it's still golf.
So it's still not the cheapest,obviously, but we strive to
keep those prices manageable.
But the bays are per hour, notper person, so you can have up
(30:33):
to six people on a bay and it'sonly, you know, 50 bucks an hour
.
You're only paying nine bucks abay, or nine bucks a person per
hour or whatever.
So that kind of thing, yeah,golf courses nearby are very
good as well.
You know popular golf courses.
Those also help as well.
Brian Sheehan (30:47):
Well, michael, it was great speaking with you
today.
Thank you for joining me onRetail Intel.
Be sure to check out XGolfAmerica in person and on
Instagram at XGolf America.
Whether you're an aspiring realestate mogul, a seasoned pro or
simply curious about the placeswhere we shop, dine, play and
(31:08):
work, this podcast is yourall-access pass to the world of
commercial real estate.
Connect with me on LinkedIn and, if you're interested in being
a part of the Retail Intelpodcast, send a message to
nationalaccounts atphillipsedisoncom.
If you want to hear more aboutnew and expanding brands like
X-Golf America, keep tuning into Retail Intel and please
(31:32):
subscribe, follow, like andrepost.
Talk to you next time.
Welcome to Retail Intel, the podcast where we
dive deep into the dynamic worldof commercial real estate.
I'm your host, brian Sheehan,and I'm thrilled to be your
guide on this journey throughthe bustling streets of retail,
the aisles of shopping centersand the world of commercial
property investment.
Today, I'm excited to haveMichael Ruvalo, president and
(00:25):
CEO of X-Golf America with us.
Michael has an inspiring storyof entrepreneurship and
innovation in the experientialretail space.
X-golf America is known for itscutting-edge indoor golf
simulators and entertainmentvenues combining technology and
fun to create an exceptionalexperience for golf enthusiasts.
(00:48):
I'm eager to learn more abouthis journey and the story behind
X-Golf America.
Well, Michael, I'd love tostart with your background.
Can you tell me more about yourcareer journey and what led you
to become president and CEO ofX-Golf America?
What led you to becomepresident and CEO of X-Golf
America?
Michael Ruvolo (01:05):
Yeah, so I came from typically a sports
background in general.
I started my career off aftercollege in minor league baseball
, minor league sports so out inthe western slope of Colorado,
came back over, did somecorporate finance for a little
bit and then I ended up back insports again with the athletic
(01:30):
department at Colorado StateUniversity and a buddy of mine
told me hey, there's this reallycool indoor golf thing.
I think you should check it out.
So I got in the car, drove overto Grand Junction actually at
the time, colorado and I checkedit out.
I thought it was a really coolconcept and talked to a friend
of mine who was working with meat the time and said hey, what
do you think about us startingthis up, getting going on?
It Made my first email toX-Golf America at the time it
(01:51):
was a new franchise and got myfirst store opened in May of
2019.
So my background started thereand when I originally called
them, I was like, hey, I want todo a store in Fort Collins,
colorado.
What does it look like?
I would like to eventually domultiple stores.
And you know they said, sure,that's great, we have another
(02:15):
opportunity to do some largerinvestment in the company
because we are going to takethis to a franchise model that
year, and so I proceeded to dothat as well and at the same
time, in the next so six or fiveyears, I ended up opening five
stores, including that one,obviously in Fort Collins, which
at the time was the 13th storein America opened.
And then, when it came time thissummer, this past summer I was
(02:38):
approached that there was achange in leadership potentially
coming and would I beinterested in that position.
And I said, sure, I just needto understand what it is and
what it entails.
And yeah, I'm definitelyinterested.
And came November of this yearthe board of directors made that
decision that they were goingto move forward, with me being
(02:59):
the CEO and president.
And here we are six monthslater, I guess right.
So it's been a little bit of awhirlwind.
It's a new position for me, butI've been managing five
locations.
Obviously I've treated that asmy own little tiny franchise.
Now I've obviously come into abigger scale with 130 locations
and growing a lot faster than Iwas five.
(03:21):
So that's kind of how I got tothis position and it's been a
fun journey, but I think it'sthe future does look pretty
bright.
Brian Sheehan (03:28):
Yeah, it's incredible and congratulations.
By the way, what inspired you?
What made you want to take onthis role?
I mean, presumably you're doingwell with the locations that
you have.
What was it about the role?
That sounded interesting andyou know what's your vision, I
guess, for the role both asbeing a franchisor and
franchisee.
Michael Ruvolo (03:48):
Yeah, it's a really good question.
So what inspired me was I am,like, the most competitive
person in the world, like I justwant to be the best at
everything I've done.
I played Division One collegebaseball and our team wasn't the
best, but every day we thoughtthat we could be the best Right
day we thought that we could bethe best Right, and so that's
kind of how I grew up.
That's the mentality I grew upand my stores were doing
(04:11):
extremely well and that's why Ithink I was approached in large
part for this position.
I was doing great, I could sitback and golf every day outside
if I wanted to and I wouldn'thave to worry about a thing.
But what inspired me was mostlyis the success of other people
really fuels me, the success ofother people within my
(04:31):
organization.
So if I have five stores of myown, the success of each
individual location reallyfueled me.
So I thought shoot man, on agrander scale, let's do 130
locations, and the success ofeach individual location will
fuel me that much more and makeit that much more enjoyable and,
(04:52):
to be honest, it really has.
I have now taken a step backfrom my locations because on a
grander scale I have a muchbigger responsibility.
My locations can run.
I have a very good team that'sbeen established for the last
five years.
They can run on their own.
They don't really need myassistance and my I guess, quote
, unquote expertise.
(05:12):
That my success, I hope, bleedsinto the new stores and the old
stores that might've not seenthe level of support that they
wanted in the past.
And that was my main goal when Icame into this.
It was, hey, how do I get allthese stores?
For the first four months waswe're going to focus on the
current franchisees that we haveand how do I get them up to the
(05:35):
level of success that my storesare seeing?
Because, at the end of the day,if we have a store that is not
as successful as the others,that's what people are going to
look at.
Right, when we want to expandand we want to do new stores,
they're going to say, well, thisstore and so-and-so is not
doing well.
They don't really care that thestore in Denver or the store in
Fort Collins is doing extremelywell.
(05:55):
They're only going to look atwhat's the worst case scenario
for themselves.
And so my goal was hey, let'sget as many stores as we
currently have.
Let's hit a pause almost on theexpansion because we expanded
so fast.
I mean 2019, I was the 13thstore in America.
Now we have 130 in 2025.
That goes with a three-month tosix-month stoppage during COVID
(06:19):
, right, and I'm sure we'll getinto that.
But that was my goal and so nowthat we've got, we feel we're
doing extremely well throughwhat we call our busy time being
January, february, march.
Essentially we are up 33% yearover year on same store sales,
which is a crazy jump for us.
But to that point, you know, mystores might be down a little
(06:42):
bit compared to what they are.
I'm okay with that.
As now the CEO of X GolfAmerica, my success is now going
to be judged off the entirecompany.
I don't really want to focusnecessarily on Colorado stores
or Nebraska stores, but I stillgive them the focus.
But now it's on the 130 stores.
So getting them up to viability, getting them up to success and
(07:03):
then from there now we're goingto start looking at expansion.
So we're in a really good spot.
So now we're going to reallystart hitting that expansion
meter.
Brian Sheehan (07:12):
Well, so X-Golf America.
How do you explain it to peoplewho are unfamiliar with your
brand and the concept?
Michael Ruvolo (07:20):
Yeah, I think it's a very I've heard it
described in many different waysAt the end of the day, it is a
rugged environment forcompetitive nature of both men
and women.
With a bar right, I mean, thisis what we do.
We have a lot of fun, we have alot of competitions,
(07:45):
competitions, and it's also anenvironment where you don't have
to feel pressured atnecessarily the golf course,
where you have a time clock onyou right, so you better get
that round completed in four anda half hours, or the person
behind you is going to get mador the marshal is going to get
mad at you.
You come into X-Golf, that bayis your bay for whatever time
you decided that you're going toplay it on.
So there's no pressure in it.
(08:05):
We get a lot of beginners butwe also get a lot of very, very
good golfers.
We have national tournaments, wegot national leagues, so it's a
competitive environment, but atthe same time I equate it
similarly to bowling mixed withjust golf.
It's a golf bowling alley, butyou just have really a lot of
fun.
It's kind of new age, it's likea big kids arcade almost as
(08:28):
well.
So that's what we kind ofstrive for.
We're in the entertainmentbusiness.
We're in the customer servicebusiness.
We're never going to be ratedas the best golf course in
America, but what we can be iswe have amazing technology
provided to us so we have anopportunity to be the best
customer service people inAmerica.
So we strive for that.
We strive for it to be almostlike your hometown bar that you
(08:51):
guys can go and hang out andhave fun at Not necessarily a
country club vibe, but more ofan all-inclusive Everybody can
come in, have fun, no dresscodes, stuff like that.
Brian Sheehan (09:03):
It's interesting.
A friend of mine and there's aneighborhood pub down the street
sometimes refers to this pub askind of a country club, like
environment, and there've beentimes I've been in there.
You know, having a beer,shooting the breeze, thinking
gosh, it'd be so fun if therewas a simulator in here.
You know, take a few swings,work on your swing, your swing,
(09:25):
whatever it is, but you knowit's still so.
The indoor golf simulator thenyou still pretty new.
This is a interesting niche andI'm curious what some of your
biggest challenges have beentaking it from one location to
130 locations, or five or 13,whenever you started.
Michael Ruvolo (09:46):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So the biggest challenge wassimulators are different.
Right, there's a differentsimulator everywhere everybody
goes.
But that's why we as a groupeverybody that's involved with
X-Golf did X-Golf because oursimulators are different.
But we strive for the shortgame aspect of things you can
fully put out on our simulators.
Our short game is justsignificantly better than every
(10:09):
other simulator.
The only area that I would saythat we probably lack in right
now which we are improving eventhis week and next week we're
actually rolling out a newupdate is the lack of courses.
Compared to, say, the Trackmansor the Foresights, they just
have access to a little bit morecourses right now, but we are
improving that and by the end ofthe year I see a significant
increase in courses for us.
(10:30):
But the hardest part wasexplaining to people what X-Golf
is, because there's so many momand pop shots that come up
right now as far as simulators,and they all have, you know,
some kind of simulator in theirname, and so we get people to
this day, five and a half yearslater, of opening a store that,
oh, I thought this was a golfretail store.
Well, we don't really do a lotof retail.
(10:51):
We're essentially a golf coursewith a bar that you don't ever
have to travel to because thecart person is always at your
hole, right?
So it is that explanation.
We need to do a better job on abrand awareness factor in the
nation and we're starting toreally develop that.
The brand awareness isincreasing in the United States.
We're in 38 states right now,including Washington DC, which I
(11:13):
know we'll get into in a littlebit, but we are expanding and
we're essentially a global brand.
X-golf America is its own armof it, but X-Golf was started in
South Korea, but they're notgoing to do a lot of brand
awareness right here in America,right?
So it's our job in America andCanada to do that brand
awareness right here in America,right?
So we're good.
It's our job in America andCanada to do that brand
awareness, and so that is ournumber one marketing goal right
(11:35):
now.
Brian Sheehan (11:35):
You mentioned the number of courses you can play.
I'm curious how many do youhave now?
What's the goal?
How many courses do you want toultimately be able to play?
Michael Ruvolo (11:45):
Yeah, right now we have about 50.
We've got Pebble Beach, we gotSt Andrews, we have Bethpage,
which is the site of the RyderCup this year.
We've got Oakmont, which is thesite of the US Open this year.
So it's actually a big year forus.
As far as the courses on oursimulators, we've got PGA
National, we've got a bunch ofPGA courses as well, but we also
(12:06):
have a large collective ofSouth Korean courses because of
our technology coming from SouthKorea.
But to answer your question, thenumber of courses, I'd like as
many as possible.
I just want to give ourcustomers the options to choose
whatever course they want.
But at the end of the day, themost heavily played courses are
Pebble Beach, st Andrews.
We have Kapalua.
That's a very, very heavilyplayed course as well.
(12:28):
But so I would say the goal isby the end of this year to be up
upwards of 60, 65, and thencontinue to grow that with our
Korean counterparts they'rehelping us develop, that we do
have a development team as well,but they'll help us develop
that I would feel comfortable ifwe get anywhere between 100 and
150 courses while continuing togrow.
(12:48):
But once we get, we're going tostrive to get to that point
within the next probably threeyears, two to three years.
Brian Sheehan (12:55):
Thinking about the design of each location, and
you've been involved withX-Golf for a number of years.
I'm curious how you approachthe design of it.
I'm really thinking about howhas the design changed over time
?
Has it changed much since youfirst became involved with it?
(13:16):
Has it evolved in anysignificant way?
Michael Ruvolo (13:19):
Yeah, I think the answer to that is we leave
the design of each store we havein the past up to the
franchisees, right?
So like the franchisees canpick their design, they give it
to us for approval.
We're going to help them withthat, because the successful
stores, the high, high,successful stores that we've
seen, they don't have likeprivate rooms per se.
(13:41):
Everybody wants to be togetherin this environment.
That for leagues andtournaments, that they could see
what the other bay is doing,they can see what everybody else
is doing.
They're interacting witheverybody else.
You can still block them off,like with curtains or whatever,
for private parties and stufflike that.
They only want to rent outthree simulators, but we don't
really want to have someexclusive area and in the past
(14:03):
the past group, before I got inhere, my predecessor, would say
that they kind of wanted to doas many simulators as possible
in each location.
I have a different philosophyin that aspect.
So I think that when I look atthe numbers of each store, and
without getting into thespecifics of the numbers, the
best stores reside within thatsix to eight simulator range.
(14:25):
Mostly, to be honest with you,seven has been a perfect number
for simulators.
That either keeps your rentdown, which I'm sure you've
talked about a lot in the pastwith this being a retail podcast
but keeping that rent down,keeping your overhead down,
while also maximizing yourrevenue.
And the maximization of revenueis having some kind of demand
(14:46):
for your product.
If you get up into nine, 10, 11simulators, it's hard to have
that demand, especially in thesummer when our numbers do
significantly drop because weare a little bit seasonal but
we're a lot seasonal, to behonest with you, but we are
making strides to improve that.
But you don't want yoursimulators just sitting there
not being used during the summer.
Which seven simulators youmight get used, seven during
(15:09):
June or July, maybe once ortwice a month at the same time.
But you know, obviously comeOctober through March, we
usually have about a three-daywaiting period before you can
get into our facility.
So if you don't make aappointment out three days in
advance, you're very hardpressed to get a time.
So my philosophy has been keepit to that six to eight
simulators, keep it between, youknow, 5,500 to 7,500 square
(15:35):
feet, keep the bar a relativelygood size.
There's not a ton of peoplejust coming in to drink beer and
sit at the bar and that's thelessons that I learned
personally on a franchisee level, right?
So my first store had 40 seatsaround the bar and I was like,
oh, we're going to get people inhere for bars and blah, blah,
blah.
It just didn't happen.
And that's okay.
(15:55):
That store does very well.
But I made the adjustment inthe next store to make the bar a
lot smaller while not takingaway the type of space that I
needed for taps.
So I still have 12 taps, butthe bar is eight seats in Denver
.
And then I adjust it from there, and Omaha is a little
different, colorado Springs evena little bit different.
(16:16):
And now I'm using that knowledge, and my team is using that
knowledge, to go hey, this iswhat we've seen successful in
the past.
Where do you put the barcompared to the simulators?
When you walk in the door, youwant the bar and the simulators
to hit you in the face.
So you want people to know whatit is when they walk in the
door, because a lot of ourwindows need to be blacked out
because of the sun affecting thepicture on the screen.
(16:39):
So you want that bar and thatsimulator to hit you in the face
.
Then people walk in and go.
Okay, I know what this is now,so it's a good concept.
Brian Sheehan (16:49):
Do you find there's a substantial portion of
your customer base that viewsthis as a neighborhood pub?
I mean, do you get people thatjust come in that just want to
sit around talk about golf?
Watch golf on TV, maybe, anddon't use the simulators?
Michael Ruvolo (17:06):
Yes, I would say that probably ranges by
location and, to be honest withyou, the involvement of the
owner of the franchisee or thegeneral manager, and what kind
of relationship he has with hislocal people.
At my stores we strive for thatcommunity-based relationship
and we're trying to breed thatamongst all the rest of the
franchisees, and they're doing agreat job of it.
(17:27):
Right now I have probably 10%to 15% of our customers that'll
come in and just hang out, watchbeer and watch other people
play.
So that's a great thing to have, obviously, but at the end of
the day, your main revenue isgoing to come from those
simulators.
Brian Sheehan (17:40):
Sure, I'm curious .
You talked a little bit aboutretail and we obviously focus a
lot on this podcast about that.
How important are the retailsales in any store's location,
and do you want this to be aplace where people are coming in
for club fittings?
You know they're going to buyequipment, balls, apparel, those
(18:02):
types of things.
Michael Ruvolo (18:03):
Yeah, we don't heavily focus on it.
To be honest with you, it'sprobably about 5% of our
business, depending on the store, depending on the pro that you
have for club fittings and stufflike that.
We just do custom club fittingsat% of our business, depending
on the store, depending on thepro that you have for club
fittings and stuff like that.
We just do custom club fittingsat most of our locations If
they have a pro on staff thatgives lessons and does club
fittings.
I have a pro on staff in two ofmy five locations.
(18:24):
So no, they can move back andforth to different locations and
stuff like that, but I thinkthat we probably have.
You know, lesson sales areabout 2% of our business, so
they're not a huge part of ourbusiness, but lesson sales drive
everything else within ourbusiness.
So if you get someone in forlessons, they're going to see
the environment, they're goingto see that they want to play
(18:44):
league, they're going to seethat they want to play
tournaments.
They're going to see that theywant to have just a lot of fun.
As far as the retail goes, wedon't do a whole lot of retail.
I'm wearing a hat that I boughtat my store right now, but
we've done a little bit ofretail.
The ones that I see that do thebest are probably hats and
gloves, and we get our glovesfrom a manufacturer through our
(19:04):
corporate office, but peopleforget their gloves and they'll
come in.
Hey, I need a glove, and okay,we got those gloves for you here
.
I think some stores try to dothe bad birdies and the shirts
that are embroidered with X-Golf.
It's a tough business.
You know that Buying all thatoverhead is always a tough ask
for some of these stores,because then the models change
(19:25):
and the styles change every year.
And because we are, you know,these stores also are obligated
for a royalty which, and becausewe are, you know, these stores
also are obligated for a royaltywhich.
Our royalty is 7% and then a 1%marketing fee.
So 8% of everything that theysell out of their store has to
go to the corporate office.
So when you have to put thosethings on sale, it cuts down on
your margin and it just takes upspace in the facility.
(19:46):
So I encourage it to have it,but I also encourage it to be on
a limited basis, just becauseof the space.
I want the space to be filledup with those simulators because
they are not cheap and that istheir biggest investment for
each of these franchisees.
But it is also good to havefunny shirts that are tailored
(20:06):
towards your store, and we givethem the freedom to do that as
well.
Brian Sheehan (20:10):
I wanted to ask you about.
So when I'm at the drivingrange, I see more and more
people integrating technologyinto their sessions, and I'm
curious how you think about that.
Is this it's not necessarilycompetition for what you're
(20:31):
providing, but maybe in someways it is.
How do you think about it?
Michael Ruvolo (20:34):
Yeah, with the launch monitors.
The launch monitors is a greatquestion, right, the technology
aspect of the launch monitorshas only grown.
Golf, and you know, I thinkit's a benefit to us If you want
to go out.
I belong to a country club aswell, so I'm not one of these
guys that says, oh no, you can'tgo outside anymore because I'm
(20:54):
the indoor golf guy and I golfoutside all the time.
If the weather's great, yeah, Iwould definitely prefer to golf
outside.
We all get that, we allunderstand that, but we have to
find ways to drive them in.
As far as the data analyticspart of things on the launch
monitor, I think that that'swhere sports has gone over the
(21:15):
last 15, 20 years.
You know my involvement in prosports since then has ever since
.
My whole career has beeninvolved with data analytics of
swings or baseball and that'swhat they use.
Everything is Everything isdata analytics driven.
Everybody's got a dataanalytics team.
We have a data analytics team.
We use a data analytics systemto find locations for
franchisees, so I'm all for asmuch data as you want.
(21:38):
Now we do have a driving rangeon our simulators and it could
provide data for you, and wehave an app that hooks up.
We're improving that app.
We need to improve that app Bethe first person to say that so
that actually gives you correctdata for that instance of your,
your range session.
If people want to come in andfind their their numbers, they
don't just have to remember themin their head.
(21:58):
They're going to have them ontheir app or they're going to
have it on a piece of paper.
We have to figure out ways toprint that out for them.
But I'm all for launch monitors.
They're great, you know, Ithink, without getting too much
into it, but the biggest.
I think we'll probably get intoit a little bit, but you know,
our biggest supporter, in anlike a you know weird way, the
(22:20):
biggest thing for golf wasTopgolf.
In my opinion, for the, thenon-outdoor side of golf, right,
topgolf is fantastic and I theydeserve so much.
They are a fantasticorganization that we strive to
be half as good as them.
That would be awesome.
But they've done such a goodjob of identifying what the
average golfer wants.
They just want fun.
(22:41):
I mean, my wife loved Topgolfbecause she can barely hit a
ball, but she'll go out thereand she'll miss a ball, but
it'll go into some random holeand she gets 10 points for it,
right?
So those kind of interactivegames For sure, with the launch
monitors.
We're talking about the very,very dialed in golfers, and heck
, we want those guys ascustomers too.
(23:01):
And we do get those guys in thewinter, especially right In the
colder areas or even in some ofour warmer locations.
I bet you they get them in thesummer because, to be frank, I
don't know if I want to playwithin 115 degrees in Dallas,
texas, in June or July.
That's a tough ask, I think,when you can play 18 holes in an
hour inside or you can go sweatto death outside and not see
(23:25):
the cart grow for five holes.
So it's a tough ask, but that'show we have to combat it a
little bit.
So it's a tough ask, but that'show we have to combat it a
little bit.
Brian Sheehan (23:32):
Thinking about the future.
Where do you want to see X-GolfAmerica five years from now?
Michael Ruvolo (23:39):
What are your growth goals.
Yeah, we expect to be at 300franchise locations with before,
so January of 2031, right, soJanuary 2031,.
We expect to be at 300locations.
We're currently at 130, withanother 15 signed up, and we
also would expect to be anywherebetween 20 to 35 franchise
(24:01):
owned locations, which we arecurrently at five.
So we do see a very expansivegrowth, very quick, expansive
growth, very quick.
These simulator stores can getup between anywhere between six
to nine months, depending on,you know, liquor licenses and
stuff like that.
But that's where we kind of seethe future going.
Then, from there, we hope to bein all 50 states by then as
(24:22):
well.
So we got another 12 to go.
Brian Sheehan (24:25):
That's awesome.
What advice would you give tosomeone looking to start a
business in the call itentertainment or sports retail
sector?
Michael Ruvolo (24:36):
When I looked at it and that's where I can give
my advice is how I did it.
I looked at where can I havethe freedom to do a little bit
of what I wanted while alsogetting the best technology?
The reason I did the franchisemodel is because X-Colf has the
best technology and I also wantto know that I'm going to get a
support.
Because what am I paying aroyalty for if I'm not going to
(24:57):
get a support from the franchiseitself?
If they're just going to openthe doors and say, hey, good
luck, pay me my money at the endof the month, I don't think
that that's fair, and so that'swhy my focus was how can I
support these franchisees?
Right when I got in here.
But I also want to look at theindustry.
Like, what industry are yougoing into?
I want to say I got a little bitlucky with X-Golf, with the
(25:20):
golf industry essentially takingoff during COVID.
I mean it was doing wellbeforehand, but then COVID hits
and bam, I can't get a tee timeoutside, so I go inside.
It's wild, but that has helpedthe golf industry immensely.
But I just want to look at doyour research on the competition
.
I've researched everycompetitor alive before I opened
(25:44):
my X-Golfs and I could do thatresearch again, and it takes a
couple of weeks, but it's notthat hard.
Go visit the sites.
Make sure it's something thatyou want to dedicate your time
to, too.
I'm all in.
If it was this or a McDonald'sor whatever, I was going to be
all in, and I don't thinkthere's ever a get rich quick
(26:06):
scheme.
I really don't, and I thinkthat some people might have this
concept that I'm just going toopen the doors and let somebody
else do it, and I really like todo it myself.
I like to be in there.
I was pouring beers for twoyears and I was, you know,
cleaning bathrooms and sweepingfloors, so you know as much all
in as you can be.
I think that's the biggest caseas well that we've seen for
(26:28):
people to be successful.
Brian Sheehan (26:30):
I'm curious how much of an impact, if any, the
Tiger Woods Golf League indoorstadium simulator has had on
your business.
Michael Ruvolo (26:42):
To be 100% honest, significant impact.
They don't use the samesimulators as us, which is fine,
but every time that one ofthose I enjoyed it, by the way,
I really did enjoy it.
I think that they did anamazing job with it.
They got the players to buy in,which was amazing they
definitely did.
Every time that it aired onESPN the next day, we would have
(27:05):
20 to 25 inquiries of newfranchisees on our website.
We weren't doing any marketingat the time of trying to get new
franchisees.
We would have 20 to 25 the nextday.
Every other day we're gettingyou know between two to five, to
be honest with you, but everytime that aired, we would have
20 to 25.
And so it is a great thing forgolf and a big driver.
(27:28):
Huge driver and shoot Tiger andRory.
Those guys are on another levelof smart than me, so I'm not
ashamed that I will tail anybodythat is smarter than me.
I am definitely not thesmartest person in X-Golf
America.
I have surrounded myself withvery, very smart people that are
very, very good at their jobs,and I think that that's what
(27:49):
every good leader should striveto do is admit when they're not
the smartest person in the world, and I really, really feel that
way.
Our team is amazing.
We're a smaller team right now,but we are getting bigger, but
they really are some geniuses.
I just hope they don't listento this, actually, because they
might come at me a little bitmore, but no, it's great and,
(28:10):
yeah, it was great for us.
Brian Sheehan (28:12):
Michael, before I let you go here, I want to run
through just some real estatequestions with you quickly.
Please Remind me again what arethe size requirements for an
X-Golf?
Michael Ruvolo (28:23):
We strive to stay between 5,500 and 7,500
square feet, between six toeight simulators.
We can finagle them to fit inanywhere you want, pretty much
with a bar, and then just theability to obtain a liquor
license is kind of ourrequirements.
We also like a parking lotclose because 95% of the people
bring their clubs.
So a parking lot close isreally good, so people can just
(28:46):
access your store with theirclubs very easily.
Brian Sheehan (28:49):
And you're opening both corporate and
franchise locations.
Michael Ruvolo (28:53):
Yep, yep, we're currently have four opened
franchise franchise or locations, with one on the way, and then
we currently are as wellexpanding more on the franchisee
side of things right now.
In the next two to three yearswe'll probably open more
franchise or stores as well, butcurrent focus would be on
franchisee stores.
Brian Sheehan (29:13):
And then, who do you look for in terms of
co-tenants?
What do you want to be near?
Michael Ruvolo (29:18):
Yeah, I think that we've seen a lot of success
in a relatively close proximityto Topgolf I know I've
mentioned them before as well asmovie theaters have been a very
, very high success rate beingaround them, and I think the
reason for that is people walkby and before they go in the
movie they come into X-Golf andthey're like, oh, I didn't know
what this was, but now we got it.
So that goes back to our brandawareness thing.
(29:39):
And then big box stores.
You know Target's great becauseyou get a lot of walking
traffic.
We have a system called Buxtonand I'm sure you're aware of
Buxton, but we use Buxton aswell to tell where the success
we see, the success of stores,and where the next successful
store is compared to thosecharacteristics, and a lot of
mobile data and stuff like that.
It's kind of creepy but it's.
(30:00):
It's really good data.
Brian Sheehan (30:01):
I imagine you're looking for, you know, a lot of
golfers in a trade area.
Maybe not, but are there anyother demographic requirements
that you're looking for?
Michael Ruvolo (30:11):
Yeah, golfers, I think between the ages of 25
and 55, with the good amount ofan expendable income.
Obviously, because it is funentertainment.
It is cheaper than outdoor golf, but it's still golf.
So it's still not the cheapest,obviously, but we strive to
keep those prices manageable.
But the bays are per hour, notper person, so you can have up
(30:33):
to six people on a bay and it'sonly, you know, 50 bucks an hour
.
You're only paying nine bucks abay, or nine bucks a person per
hour or whatever.
So that kind of thing, yeah,golf courses nearby are very
good as well.
You know popular golf courses.
Those also help as well.
Brian Sheehan (30:47):
Well, michael, it was great speaking with you
today.
Thank you for joining me onRetail Intel.
Be sure to check out XGolfAmerica in person and on
Instagram at XGolf America.
Whether you're an aspiring realestate mogul, a seasoned pro or
simply curious about the placeswhere we shop, dine, play and
(31:08):
work, this podcast is yourall-access pass to the world of
commercial real estate.
Connect with me on LinkedIn and, if you're interested in being
a part of the Retail Intelpodcast, send a message to
nationalaccounts atphillipsedisoncom.
If you want to hear more aboutnew and expanding brands like
X-Golf America, keep tuning into Retail Intel and please
(31:32):
subscribe, follow, like andrepost.
Talk to you next time.
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