In this episode, Dale dives into discussion with Rick Spicer, part-owner of the Pack Rat Outdoor Center in Fayetteville, Arkansas. Rick shares his fascinating journey from college student to outdoor retail veteran, with over 25 years of experience in the business. Together, they dive into the art of community building through unique events like the Brewhouse Bushwhack, the intricacies of transitioning ownership in a small business, and the lessons learned in managing people and inventory. Rick candidly reflects on challenges in the outdoor retail world, shares actionable advice for new retailers, and highlights the importance of leaning into passions and embracing collaboration.
Whether you’re an outdoor enthusiast or an aspiring retailer, this episode is packed with insights to inspire and inform.
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Episode Transcript
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Intro (00:02):
Welcome to the Adventure Retail Podcast, your go-to
destination for all thingsoutdoor retail.
Join us as we embark on ajourney through the captivating
world of outdoor gear shops,exploring retail triumphs,
challenges and everything inbetween, from product sourcing
to customer engagementstrategies.
We're here to support andempower outdoor gear retailers
every step of the way.
Dale (00:23):
Rick, thanks for making the time to meet with me today.
Rick (00:27):
It's great.
I'm happy to be here, thank you.
Dale (00:29):
Cool, all right, so we're going to jump right in.
I want you to give us anoverview of what got you here,
so you have well, maybe firstoff your store name and then how
you ended up being in retail.
Rick (00:42):
Yeah, so my shop is called the Pack Rat Outdoor Center.
It's located in Fayetteville,arkansas, and we're just one
door, but we are 51 years old.
We were originally started byScott and Carolyn Crook, and
Carolyn is still very much apart of the business here nearly
daily.
And I got my start when I wasactually in college.
(01:04):
I was in the University ofArkansas working on getting a
degree in environmental, soiland water science, but I was a
lot more interested in rockclimbing and backpacking and
that type of stuff back then andI heard that PACRAP might be
looking for some help at thattime and so I filled out an
application and got a job here,and so I was very much in the
(01:26):
middle of my school when Istarted working here and it was
sort of one of those situations,kind of right place at the
right time, because I never left.
I've been here ever since andthat was 25 years ago, so yeah,
so at what point?
Dale (01:43):
what's your current, what's your current position
then?
What's your, what's your rolein the shop today?
Rick (01:49):
Yeah, I guess the easiest way you could describe my
position.
So I'm a part owner of thebusiness now I'm also the
equipment buyer and I'm I guessyou could say I'm the general
manager as well, although I havetwo other employees that are
really the floor managers.
I don't manage the floor muchor the schedule or anything.
(02:10):
It's mostly you know the typesof things that owners would deal
with and then managing theinventory and the buying process
for the equipment.
Those are my primary jobs andthen in addition to that, I do a
lot of event work and a lot ofeducational work.
I've been an outdoor educatorfor 20 years.
I was a climbing instructorwith the American Mountain Guide
(02:33):
Association for an SBI.
I taught climbing for 15 yearsand outside of that I'm
currently actually a survivalinstructor for the school in
Utah called Boulder OutdoorSurvival School.
I'm a wilderness firstresponder, so I always had a
strong kind of interest andwillingness to introduce other
(02:55):
people to the outdoors and getthem excited about learning
about it.
Dale (03:00):
Yeah, wow.
So you teach for a school basedin Utah?
Rick (03:04):
Yeah, wow so you teach for a school based in Utah?
I do.
Yeah, I don't get to do itnearly as much as I'd like, but
it was a school that Ipersonally wanted to attend for
years and I finally, many yearsago, had an opportunity to do
that.
And the way you become aninstructor there is you get
asked to come back after acourse, and I was asked to come
back and it took me severalseasons of going out there for a
(03:27):
few weeks at a time, buteventually I became an
instructor there, and so when Ican, I'll go out and I'll.
I'll spend anywhere from two tofour weeks a season out there
trying to help run theseimmersive wilderness programs
that are in the EscalanteMonument area in southern Utah.
Dale (03:46):
Wow.
So you know I would love topartner with you to host some
sort of event.
Let's start with a survivalevent in Utah.
I could be a well and I want todig into that for you.
Like you've really leveragedyour expertise and your love of
(04:11):
the outdoors and survival in inbranding your business and
building community.
Rick (04:17):
I've certainly done my best to do that.
I'm still learning all the time.
I mean I'm not an expert inanything.
I'm still learning all the time.
I mean I'm I'm not an expert inanything.
I think my, my special power ismy stubbornness and my
unwillingness to sort of quit atanything, and so a lot of it
just comes from trying stuff andyou know that doesn't work.
So you try something differentbut you don't give up.
But building community issomething that's been really
(04:40):
important to Packer at for yearsand years now, and you know we
do everything we do.
We host six pint nights a yearand the last one that we did
this spring we raised about$5,000 in one evening for a
local nonprofit group, a RaptorRehabilitation, veterinary
(05:02):
Operation, and so you know we'rereal proud of the partnerships
that we've been able to do thereand kind of reinvest in our
community.
Dale (05:10):
Yeah, okay.
So I've got a couple ofquestions based on I'd love to
learn more about how you kind ofbought into the business and
just there there are a lot ofpeople who are either later on
in the path, maybe similar tothe owner that started it 30
years before you came on board,and then they see a promising
(05:32):
employee and they kind ofintegrate them in.
I've chatted with severalretailers that kind of have done
that.
It'd be interesting to hear alittle bit more about that path,
and then, after I want to gointo your event strategy with
the Brewhouse Bushwhack andmaybe dig into that a little bit
more.
So first, though, how did thatgo?
(05:54):
And maybe any advice for peoplethat are getting into a shop
that might take it over or might, you know, want to buy in?
Rick (06:06):
Yeah, I mean it really when you're when it's a small,
local kind of nonprofit notnonprofit, excuse me
independently owned type ofbusiness.
What I learned about it is thatthe process is quite
complicated, and so there was alot of legal processes involved,
(06:28):
and so this was a vision thatScott and Carolyn had probably
20 years yeah, at this point I'dsay 20 years ago because they
recognized that after they weregone, they wanted the pack rat
to continue to be what it wasand what they built it into.
To continue to be what it wasand what they built it into.
And so, in our case at the time, there were three long-term
(06:50):
managers that had been here, andin order to qualify for the
program, you had to be here aminimum of five years, and then
at that point, they basicallybuilt into our compensation.
We had the opportunity to workoff our ownership, or sort of
buy into it through our as partof our, our wages, if you will.
(07:17):
Now, obviously, that had to bedrawn up legally, and Carolyn
could speak to that much betterthan I can in terms of exactly
how that was done, but what theway it worked is that we gained
a certain percentage, as anindividual, of ownership per
year through a period of fiveyears, and at the end of five
(07:39):
years it was left, so thatCarolyn still owned the majority
she still owns about 55% of thebusiness and then the other
three managers split.
The other 45 was split amongstthe three.
One of those people has sinceleft.
She decided that she was readyto go a different way in life,
(08:04):
and she was, at the time, ourlongest tenured employee other
than Carolyn, and so now it'sjust Kevin and I and so, and of
course, carolyn, who's stillhere all the time, and so I
think what it did for I mean, Ican't speak for everyone exactly
, but I think I know what it didfor me and I have a hunch.
(08:25):
What it did for them is to,which is exactly what Scott and
Carolyn wanted it to do was tocreate this sense of ownership,
and this like directparticipation in the process of
what the business was becomingand what direction it was going
to go, and so we very muchbelieve in making decisions
(08:46):
based on consensus.
Everyone has a say Ultimately.
Carolyn still owns most of thebusiness.
She owns the building.
It's her final say, but she'salways been really receptive to
our feedback and the types ofthings that we think are
important for the direction thatPacker Eye wants to go, and a
huge part of that is community.
(09:07):
It's not always aboutprofitability per se.
None of us are doing thisbecause it's the way to make the
most money in life.
If that's your thing, it'sprobably not the job you want to
be in.
Dale (09:21):
Maybe consider getting into commercial real estate.
Rick (09:24):
Right, exactly, there's other things you could do, but I
think we're all very passionateabout the outdoors, we're all
very passionate about protectingthe environment, conservation,
and this is a way that we can beinvolved in those things, build
community and make a livingwhile we do it, and so yeah, I
love it.
Dale (09:43):
And you guys, in our conversation before we started
recording, we talk about how doyou compete against Amazon, and
you guys have put a lot ofenergy into building community.
Could you maybe and you're 10years into this Bruja Bushwhack,
(10:05):
give or take, right, you'regoing on your 10th year, so
you're there.
How does someone could you tellus a little bit more about,
maybe, some of the uncertainty?
And well, first off, you havewhat you said you get 400 people
to that.
Rick (10:25):
Yeah, on average it could be a little more or a little
less, but on average it'sprobably 400 people.
Dale (10:48):
So that's a success.
You're known for that.
People enjoy it.
It sells out have tripped youup.
That a lot of people you know,because there's a lot of this,
is a rare thing for you to comeup with an event and be on year
10.
That doesn't happen every day.
Rick (11:03):
Right, yeah, I mean I'm not going to lie Like this event
is complicated and it's apassion project for sure.
It takes a lot of really highqualified volunteers and people
that that I can trust to pull itoff.
I mean that's one of the thingsI want to emphasize is like
this thing is not just me, it'snot me doing all of this, it's a
(11:26):
big crew of of people that theycare a lot about doing it and
that's what makes it work.
Um and so um, you know, in thebeginning it's funny, it
happened almost by accident oneof the guys in town that owns
one of our local breweries this,the shop called fossilossil
Cove, or a brewery called FossilCove that we've had a really
(11:49):
long-term good relationship with, was in the store one day and
it was me and a couple other ofthe staff at the time and it was
literally by accident.
We started like brainstormingthis thing because it was slow
that day and the more we talkedabout it, the more I was like
this sounds incredible and Ihave a background too in
adventure racing.
I used to.
(12:09):
I've competed in otheradventure races and I've also.
I was a rigger for ropescourses for adventure through
other adventure races,specifically one called the
Ozark Challenge.
That was very popular here inthe 90s and you know, adventure
racing, like a lot of sports,goes through its ups and downs
and in the early 2000s or maybeyou know, mid 2000s, adventure
(12:32):
racing, from my perspectiveanyway, really was kind of dead.
There wasn't a lot happening inthe traditional sense like the
Eco Challenge and those types ofraces.
What was popular were theSpartan races and the Tough
Mudders and all that and I wascompeting and doing those just
for fun, you know athleticevents but I always felt like
(12:52):
something was missing from thoseand I really love that old
school idea of you know, goingout and orienteering and doing
all that.
But you know, to me I don't knowif I'm going to do something.
I don't want to do what's beendone before.
I want to make things uniqueand interesting and provide an
experience that maybe peopledon't have an opportunity to do
(13:15):
in other places skills andnature, identification and all
that type of stuff and so sortof selfishly, I just was like
what, what would be like anawesome day in the woods?
It'd be like really cool to goout and use a map and compass
(13:37):
and do a bunch of hiking, maybepaddle a canoe, go, you know,
look for animal sign, do somefirst aid scenarios, get some
rope course scenario involved inthere.
I mean just all the stuff thatI love to do, and it turns out a
whole bunch of other peoplelove to do that stuff too.
And the other thing I guessabout it is like I've made a ton
(13:58):
of mistakes over the years.
You can't be afraid.
You can't not do somethingbecause you're afraid of making
mistakes, because you're goingto make them.
That's just part of it.
What's important is empoweringother people around you to sort
of be able to problem solve andfix those.
And you know, learn from yourmistakes and move forward, you
(14:18):
know so yeah, so you're this.
Dale (14:22):
This is an embodiment.
This event is an embodiment ofyour past experience that you
were kind of expert in.
So it's uh not that somebodycouldn't do it, they didn't have
that skill but you're very muchgoing with your existing
tailwind to say, hey look, I'vedone adventure races, I've done
the tough mudders.
I teach you these things.
How can I build, uh, an eventaround all of these passions?
Rick (14:46):
Yeah, I mean pretty much.
But at the same time it waslike that, combined with me
knowing a lot of great A, havinga staff that bought into it,
then that was excited as I wasabout doing it, and then also
having a bunch of people in ourcommunity that either remembered
(15:08):
some of that those oldadventure race like the ozark
challenge or was just like youknow what.
This sounds cool.
And the other neat thing aboutthis event is like we'll have
people sign up and do the raceand then maybe a few years later
they become volunteers.
Um, and, and there's, I've hadso many people be like you know
(15:29):
what I may not race, but I wantto be involved in this as long
as I can be, and so if I'm notracing, I'm going to be a
volunteer, and then sometimesvolunteers, they learn stuff and
they get experience and thenthey become racers and it goes
both ways and I think it'sawesome.
Dale (15:43):
So so is it kind of like a spartan race and like a
bushcraft, you know, field daylike kind of thing like is it a?
Rick (15:53):
mix, except it's really, it's spread out, I guess, like
the thing about a spartan raceis different.
Well, first of all, it's notnearly as athletic, there's you
know.
So our slogan is you race forpoints, not for time on this
thing, and so you can come inlast and win.
Being fast and being strongonly helps you in the sense that
you can move faster from pointA to point B to complete the
(16:17):
challenges.
Dale (16:19):
So you've weighted down athleticism, so it's like it may
help, but it's not going to bea factor, it's not going to be
the driving factor.
Rick (16:26):
Correct.
Now.
Undoubtedly the teams thatusually place high are very
athletic teams because they canmove fast.
The one we just did in April,the winning team, I think they
went about 14 miles in sevenhours and that's on top of doing
a ton of skill work andchallenges shooting a bow and
(16:48):
arrow, doing first aid scenarios, paddling a canoe, doing
friction fire, all kinds ofstuff.
These are really skilled peoplethat are coming out and doing
this stuff.
Especially the last maybe fouror five years.
It's become very competitiveand you see these same teams
(17:09):
just neck and neck trying tooutdo each other every year.
And this team this year, a teamthat had been in the top three
for like oh, I forget maybe two,three years, now they, they
came up in one and I was.
It was awesome, I was so happyyeah.
Dale (17:24):
Dang, that sounds, that sounds so cool.
Yeah, I love it.
So yeah, you, you leveraged alot of your experience.
So maybe for other shop ownersand other you know other people
in your situations how can Ibuild community?
What kind of event could I do?
Maybe you'd look what are mypassions, what am I?
Rick (17:47):
skilled at absolutely, I think, leaning into your
personal, your own strengths andand what you love to do.
I mean to me it's if you don'tlike doing it, it's probably not
worth doing.
I mean, that's kind of whereI'm at too.
It's like I have very limitedamount of time.
I mean I have a family, twokids.
I, you know, run packer out.
I have another small businessthat I personally own, so I mean
(18:08):
I'm a busy guy and so to meit's like I'm really only
interested in getting putting myenergy and getting involved in
things that I enjoy doing andthat I think that others see
value in.
So lean into your strengths andnot just your own strengths, but
like look around in your staffor your friends, your community,
and like recognize thestrengths of the people around
(18:30):
you.
I mean there's all kinds ofpeople that help out with this
thing and other events that wedo, that are just very generous
people, but they're also highlyskilled people, whether that's,
you know, uh, medical, you knowEMTs, search and rescue, first
responder, that type of stuff.
Sometimes they're swift waterpeople.
I mean, you know, that's theawesome thing about the outdoor
(18:51):
community, I think, is that youdon't have to look very far to
find people that are, a willingto help and, b that are really
legitimately skilled people thatyou know, if you create that
community around it, a lot oftimes they're very willing to
help.
Dale (19:15):
Love it Cool.
Well, I'm going to hit you upbecause I want to have an
adventure challenge for a lot ofdifferent reasons.
Rick (19:20):
Cool In Utah, so yeah, let's talk.
Dale (19:21):
We should absolutely talk.
I think I love that Cool.
Well, and I and I do want tomake a I need to find a way to
come out to one of yours.
That'd be awesome.
Ok, so tell me what you know.
(19:45):
Let's go to two directions.
So first, if you were actuallyno, let's go to this other thing
.
First, management, just generalbusiness management, right, so
you've been in, you've beeninvolved in PACRAP for what?
20 years?
I've been here 25 years.
(20:09):
Like management principle ortechnique that you think has
helped you a lot, that you maybewere a part of, like pre it
being implemented, and then post, like whether that's employee
reviews or a different way totrack metrics or a different way
to manage your sales floor.
Is there something that youhave that you're doing a lot
(20:32):
differently now and seeing goodresults from that you didn't do,
say, 15 years ago?
Rick (20:38):
Golly, that's a really good question.
I think there's probably awhole lot of like small things
that end up collectively makinga big difference.
Okay, um, I know that.
You know, for me, stayingorganized is really critical.
If you're super busy, it's soeasy for something to get away
(21:00):
from you.
You know, maybe there's peoplein your staff that need
something from you and you'relike, yeah, I'll get to it.
And then time goes by and youstill haven't gotten to it, but
you owe that thing to thosepeople by, and you still haven't
gotten to it, but you owe thatthing to those people.
And so, you know, finding a wayto stay organized and be on a
(21:21):
timeline and if you tell yourstaff you're going to do
something, doing your best tofollow through with that thing
by when you said you were, isreally important.
And if you're, if you can't,like, letting them know you can
and why, and just being gettingin front of that, because you
know, I think that, again, beinga trustworthy person and being
someone that like is looked atas as, uh, the type of person
(21:45):
that is going to do what theyfollowed through, what they said
they were going to do on for me, I think, is just a really like
core principle of the type ofperson I try to be and I think
that you, you get more respectout of people if you behave that
way.
And and I know that becauseI've made mistakes in the past
you know, uh, I, I something,somebody needed something and
(22:07):
and there was maybe not as big apriority to me and I didn't
realize how big a priority itwas to that person.
And then you know it's justagain, it's just a time thing,
uh, when you're so busy.
But, um, I think, if you sayyou're going to do something
following through on it which Iknow that's really broad, but I
think it's really important,it's true, um, and then, um, I
(22:30):
think my biggest thing mostrecently that I'm like in the
middle of working on right nowthat I'm really bad at, is
delegating.
Um, I have had experiences inthe past where I tried to give
responsibility to other peopleand that didn't go so well.
And then I, my response in myown head was basically like,
(22:51):
okay, yeah, that's why I didn'tdo it in the first place.
Then you take it back and younever get anywhere and you just
keep adding to your to-do list,but then that causes all kinds
of other problems.
And so, you know, we have gonethrough a lot of change.
We have a very young staffrelative to what Packrat has
traditionally had right now,after we, one of our owners left
(23:19):
and our main floor manager left, and all that happened just
over a year ago, and so, buteven though sometimes in the
moment those things are painful,I think we're in a really good
spot because of the freshness ofperspective that we have and
allowing some other people'svoices to kind of come in and
play a bigger role in sort ofthe, the, the culture, internal
(23:41):
culture of the store and, andyou know, doing our best to be
transparent with our people and,um, being like, hey, look,
we're all in this together and,at the end of the day, what I
want most is for people to cometo work and feel respected and
enjoy their job as much as theycan, and so, you know, taking
feedback and implementing thatas often as you can.
(24:02):
There's going to be plenty oftimes when you were going to get
feedback and you're like, hey,I get it.
That would be great if we coulddo that, but it's just not
where we're at right now, foryou know, whatever it may be, um
but, if you can't um just behaving an honest conversation
about it, I think is superimportant.
Dale (24:22):
Mm-hmm, I love it.
Uh, you know it's.
Is there anything that you'vedone specifically, or like a
tool or book you read, orresource or somebody else's
example to help you realize thatyou weren't as organized as you
should be?
Rick (24:39):
I actually I had an opportunity.
So I was part of anentrepreneur program here in
Northwest Arkansas recently,this spring.
It was up in Bentonville.
There's a program calledGreenhouse Center for
Entrepreneur Development.
It's GORP is the name of it andit was actually for another
(25:01):
small business that I'm running.
But through that program, kindof unexpectedly, I had an
opportunity to take a veryin-depth personality assessment
and I don't want to get it allwrong, I don't want to say it
wrong, but I can get you thedetails of that and even the
(25:23):
person that administered thetest.
But it was about a three-hourwritten test that I took.
It was followed up with aseries of meetings.
One was in person, where thisindividual he's a professor at
the University of Arkansas andhe went through what all the
(25:45):
metrics of the personalityassessment meant and didn't open
anyone's actual report.
And then, individually, we wemet with him, um, and it was
very eye opening for me.
I mean none of it, I would say,was a surprise.
Uh, everything you read it waslike, okay, that tracks, this
(26:05):
track, so on and so forth.
But the things that he pulledout, um, when we had our
one-on-one discussion about,like, what the things that I
struggle with are and the waythat my decision-making process
works, was pretty eye-opening,and one of the best pieces of
advice that he gave to me wasthat you need to ask for help
(26:30):
sooner than you think and youneed to give when you, when you
delegate, you need to giveresponsibilities away very
slowly because of your the past.
You have where, with that kindof blow it up in your face a
little bit, and so I have begunbeen working out pretty well,
(26:53):
and so I think I you know, as aalmost 45 year old guy, I think
that sometimes, for me anyway, Ijust put my head down and I
just keep pushing, keep drivingand trying to be like you know,
I can, I can.
If I just work hard enough,I'll get all of this done,
(27:14):
everything that I need to do.
But I think it's important toknow where your your limits are
and where you need to ask forhelp, because there's other
people that are smarter than youor understand things better
than you.
And then the other part of thatis that it's actually learning
to ask for help and things.
It's not a weakness, it's astrength.
You know it's.
(27:35):
It's learning to you know thatnot everybody knows everything,
and I'll be the first one toadmit that.
I mean, even in retail I've beendoing this 25 years there's all
kinds of I learned stuff allthe time and there's all sorts
of things that either a I don't,I may, I'm not as good at it as
(27:58):
some people or B quite frankly,it's just not that interesting
to me and I would rather havesomeone else who's better at it
or more interested in it beworking on that component of the
business with the stuff that Ilove the community building, the
, you know the skills, you knowthose types of things that I
(28:19):
really love that make my shopwhat it is and make it unique.
And then, when it comes to youknow, marketing and bookkeeping
and a lot of these other things,like, go find other people that
can lean into those things thatare way better at it than I am.
Dale (28:30):
Anyway, yeah, or or a a 90 minute line review of a new
apparel line with the differentcolors and things.
You might like hard goodsbetter.
Rick (28:39):
Yeah, exactly yeah, I'm only a buyer because I can buy
hard goods.
Yeah, if I had a bag on yourfootwear, I would probably not
be that's how I was too.
Dale (28:51):
I'm like I do not want to sit through and look at any of
this clothing.
I know the colors change and Ican't dress myself anyways Like
I'm not the guy to do this.
Rick (28:59):
Me neither.
I wear a t-shirt and a hatevery single day of my life.
Dale (29:04):
Yeah Well, I wore a collared shirt for you today.
So, yeah, the.
You know, it's funny that youmention the just becoming more
reliable at the end of the dayand every project that I've done
.
Yeah, when you can work withpeople who say, oh, I haven't
done that yet, or I can't dothat, or I don't know the right,
(29:27):
like just being very clearabout, yes, I'll do that for you
, but not this week, I'll do itnext week.
Oh, I can't do that today, I'mtoo busy, I will do that
tomorrow.
Um, I, I work with my brother,bruce, and I, I I trust him and
everybody else trusts himbecause he's very good at just,
he has a list and everything heever commits to.
You know that it's in his worldand it won't.
(29:51):
It made it to the list where, inmy first business, I had an
aunt that worked for me, whowould, who showed me that I
wasn't actually very reliablebecause, you know, working with
her for a long time she's a deal.
Did you do this yet?
Oh, no, not.
Yet she comes back two hourslater.
Did you get that done?
I need that done, oh, okay, ok,no one's done that to me as the
(30:11):
boss before, right, but she wasmy aunt, you know, right, and,
and it was cool to work in thathigher level of accountability.
Yeah, and everything goesbetter when people are just
straight up.
Rick (30:25):
No, it's true.
I mean, accountability isimportant and you know, again,
I'm not immune from makingmistakes and forgetting things.
But I know that about myself.
And if I, I don't love the factthat I have to do it, but I
live and die by my calendar andif it doesn't get written on my
calendar it's kind of not realto me.
Dale (30:44):
And I know that about me because you emailed me earlier
this morning to say I didn't geta confirmation here what's the
meeting, what time.
This was four hours before andand I can tell that, yeah,
that's a, that's a strength ofyours for sure.
Rick (31:01):
Cool.
Dale (31:02):
Awesome One QBP quality bike products.
They had a.
They had this like personnel orit was like a management matrix
of of like they called itbehaviors, personal
responsibilities, managementmatrix of of like they called it
behaviors, personalresponsibilities and one of them
.
One of the things they wantedpeople to realize was that your
perspective is only one of manyperspectives, and I think that's
(31:24):
a bit of what you're saying,like it's not right or wrong.
Your perspective is,perspective is one of many.
Rick (31:31):
Yeah, absolutely yeah, and and I I remembered it, the the
assessment that I took is calledthe Hogan assessment.
Dale (31:38):
Ah see, I've heard of that one.
Rick (31:39):
Yeah, I didn't want to say it wrong, but I remembered it
so, um, so, if you know, ifanyone watches this and they
have any questions, they'rewelcome to send me an email
about that, because I it reallywas a pretty eyeopening process,
um, and I could, and I coulddirect them to some additional
resources related to that ifthey're interested, but it is a
(32:00):
time-consuming commitment to gothrough it.
Dale (32:05):
Well, you're in it 25 years, so it sounds like that's
made a meaningful difference inyour trajectory.
Rick (32:10):
Yeah, and I've actually turned other people on to it
since then and they have givenme similar feedback that they
were like hey, thanks fortelling me about this trajectory
.
Yeah, and I've actually turnedother people on to it since then
and I've had they have given mesimilar feedback that they were
like hey, thanks for telling meabout this.
I found a lot of value in it.
Dale (32:21):
So Love it Okay, so we're at time.
We have time for one morequestion.
Cause I'm going to go?
Cause I asked permission if Icould go a couple minutes over,
yeah.
That's what we're doing um, soyou could your uh advice that
you'd give to a new retailerstarting up oh golly, uh, yeah
(32:44):
and you'd mention that not beingthe specialized piece yeah, for
sure.
Rick (32:49):
I mean, don't be afraid to specialize.
But I think the first questionI'd ask him is like what, what
is it that you're trying to getout of becoming an outdoor
retailer?
Like what's what's the end goalthere, um, for you?
And like, what are you gonna dothat isn't already being done
100 other places with peoplethat probably have more
resources and assets than you do?
Um, and that's not to scareanyone away, but it's just a
(33:12):
kind of like, bring in thisawareness of, like, what you're
up against right now, like thisis a very challenging.
I mean again been doing this along time.
I've never it's never been ascomplicated as it is now and
it's never been as hard andchallenging as it is right now.
And you know we have a lot ofthings going for us.
You know, being where we are,um, with the great crew that we
(33:36):
have, the history 51 years inbusiness that we have, um, we
have an amazing facility 15,000square foot log cabin.
I mean we're, we're in like a,we have a lot of great things
going for us and all thosethings.
It's still hard, um, and so youknow I I kind of half joking,
half jokingly, but not reallyI'm like man, I'm working twice
(33:58):
as hard as I was, you know, twoyears ago, making less money
right now.
It's like this is kind of whatit is, and if you can't laugh
about that then you probablyshouldn't become a retailer.
Yeah, it's kind of how I lookat it.
But at the same time, I thinkthe benefits of it are the
people, the relationships andthe opportunities, and so if you
(34:19):
value those types of things alot, then I think you can find a
way to make a living doing thisand you know it's going to be
worthwhile.
But if you're doing it because,oh, outdoor gear is cool and I
could, you know, make a lot ofmoney doing that, I would, I
would think real hard.
Uh, before you, you know,wanted to.
(34:39):
If that was your reasoning, soto speak.
Dale (34:41):
Yeah, Love it.
Tell me one one little bitabout.
You said uh, another thing youadded that I thought was really
interesting and that you'velived out really well in your
business was don't be afraid tospecialize and also, um it, you
know, don't be afraid of justbeing a little weird trying for
(35:02):
sure.
Rick (35:03):
Well, don't be afraid of being a weird in the sense that,
like you know, again, my, myversion of that is you come in
here in a in a very much atraditional outdoor shop.
You, you know, we got Patagonia, we got Yakum, we got Osprey,
we got all those things that youexpect to see in a shop like
this.
But we also have, like, somereally interesting niche
(35:24):
American made stuff which I'msuper proud of.
We have traditional bows andarrows, we have a bushcraft
knives.
You know, we have some uniqueitems that you're not going to
find in a lot of other types ofshops.
And the other thing I think togo along with that is like
listen to your people.
Like, if you've got key staffthat are on your sales floor,
(35:47):
they're having moreconversations with your
customers than you probably are,and so if you're not taking
their advice, then you'reselling yourself short, and, and
so you need to routinely haveconversations with the people
that are selling the stuff thatyou're buying or that you're
bringing in your store.
Just like, just the other day,one of my guys actually not just
multiple of my employees werelike hey, we're getting a lot of
(36:11):
people asking for outdoorquilts, like I had tried quilts
in the past and never had awhole lot of success for them
with them, and but I was likeyou know what.
It's been a while since wereally did much with quilts,
like let's bring them in, let'ssee what happened or what
happens with them.
We haven't had many for a whilejust yet they're still kind of
(36:32):
new in the store.
But I think that does two things.
One is it shows that employeethat you were listening to their
feedback and you're actuallydoing something based upon what
they told you to do.
And then if it sells, that'sgreat for you.
And if it doesn't sell, thatshows them that hey, I listened
(36:54):
and it didn't work out andthat's OK, but we'll, we'll look
, we'll find the next one.
But if you just tell people noall the time and you shut them
down after a while, they'regoing to stop coming to you with
ideas and that's not going tohelp you either.
And so I think listening is,you know, which is, again, it's
sort of a cliche, but, like alot of people say, it's one
(37:15):
thing, say it's another thing todo it and to act upon the
feedback you get from listeningto people.
And so, again, every decisionyou make can always be about the
bottom line, and if that's theway you look at it, maybe being
an outdoor retailer is not theright place for you.
Dale (37:35):
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome Cool.
Well, it's really been great tochat with you today.
Rick (37:41):
Likewise.
Dale (37:42):
I'm excited to announce our new adventure someday.
So we'll figure it out, stay intouch.
Send me an email, we'll talkabout it.
Awesome, thanks so much.
All right, thanks Dale.
Outro (37:52):
Thank you for joining us on the Adventure Retail Podcast.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep innovating and remember
you're not alone on this retailjourney.
See you on the trail.
Welcome to the Adventure Retail Podcast, your go-to
destination for all thingsoutdoor retail.
Join us as we embark on ajourney through the captivating
world of outdoor gear shops,exploring retail triumphs,
challenges and everything inbetween, from product sourcing
to customer engagementstrategies.
We're here to support andempower outdoor gear retailers
every step of the way.
Dale (00:23):
Rick, thanks for making the time to meet with me today.
Rick (00:27):
It's great.
I'm happy to be here, thank you.
Dale (00:29):
Cool, all right, so we're going to jump right in.
I want you to give us anoverview of what got you here,
so you have well, maybe firstoff your store name and then how
you ended up being in retail.
Rick (00:42):
Yeah, so my shop is called the Pack Rat Outdoor Center.
It's located in Fayetteville,arkansas, and we're just one
door, but we are 51 years old.
We were originally started byScott and Carolyn Crook, and
Carolyn is still very much apart of the business here nearly
daily.
And I got my start when I wasactually in college.
(01:04):
I was in the University ofArkansas working on getting a
degree in environmental, soiland water science, but I was a
lot more interested in rockclimbing and backpacking and
that type of stuff back then andI heard that PACRAP might be
looking for some help at thattime and so I filled out an
application and got a job here,and so I was very much in the
(01:26):
middle of my school when Istarted working here and it was
sort of one of those situations,kind of right place at the
right time, because I never left.
I've been here ever since andthat was 25 years ago, so yeah,
so at what point?
Dale (01:43):
what's your current, what's your current position
then?
What's your, what's your rolein the shop today?
Rick (01:49):
Yeah, I guess the easiest way you could describe my
position.
So I'm a part owner of thebusiness now I'm also the
equipment buyer and I'm I guessyou could say I'm the general
manager as well, although I havetwo other employees that are
really the floor managers.
I don't manage the floor muchor the schedule or anything.
(02:10):
It's mostly you know the typesof things that owners would deal
with and then managing theinventory and the buying process
for the equipment.
Those are my primary jobs andthen in addition to that, I do a
lot of event work and a lot ofeducational work.
I've been an outdoor educatorfor 20 years.
I was a climbing instructorwith the American Mountain Guide
(02:33):
Association for an SBI.
I taught climbing for 15 yearsand outside of that I'm
currently actually a survivalinstructor for the school in
Utah called Boulder OutdoorSurvival School.
I'm a wilderness firstresponder, so I always had a
strong kind of interest andwillingness to introduce other
(02:55):
people to the outdoors and getthem excited about learning
about it.
Dale (03:00):
Yeah, wow.
So you teach for a school basedin Utah?
Rick (03:04):
Yeah, wow so you teach for a school based in Utah?
I do.
Yeah, I don't get to do itnearly as much as I'd like, but
it was a school that Ipersonally wanted to attend for
years and I finally, many yearsago, had an opportunity to do
that.
And the way you become aninstructor there is you get
asked to come back after acourse, and I was asked to come
back and it took me severalseasons of going out there for a
(03:27):
few weeks at a time, buteventually I became an
instructor there, and so when Ican, I'll go out and I'll.
I'll spend anywhere from two tofour weeks a season out there
trying to help run theseimmersive wilderness programs
that are in the EscalanteMonument area in southern Utah.
Dale (03:46):
Wow.
So you know I would love topartner with you to host some
sort of event.
Let's start with a survivalevent in Utah.
I could be a well and I want todig into that for you.
Like you've really leveragedyour expertise and your love of
(04:11):
the outdoors and survival in inbranding your business and
building community.
Rick (04:17):
I've certainly done my best to do that.
I'm still learning all the time.
I mean I'm not an expert inanything.
I'm still learning all the time.
I mean I'm I'm not an expert inanything.
I think my, my special power ismy stubbornness and my
unwillingness to sort of quit atanything, and so a lot of it
just comes from trying stuff andyou know that doesn't work.
So you try something differentbut you don't give up.
But building community issomething that's been really
(04:40):
important to Packer at for yearsand years now, and you know we
do everything we do.
We host six pint nights a yearand the last one that we did
this spring we raised about$5,000 in one evening for a
local nonprofit group, a RaptorRehabilitation, veterinary
(05:02):
Operation, and so you know we'rereal proud of the partnerships
that we've been able to do thereand kind of reinvest in our
community.
Dale (05:10):
Yeah, okay.
So I've got a couple ofquestions based on I'd love to
learn more about how you kind ofbought into the business and
just there there are a lot ofpeople who are either later on
in the path, maybe similar tothe owner that started it 30
years before you came on board,and then they see a promising
(05:32):
employee and they kind ofintegrate them in.
I've chatted with severalretailers that kind of have done
that.
It'd be interesting to hear alittle bit more about that path,
and then, after I want to gointo your event strategy with
the Brewhouse Bushwhack andmaybe dig into that a little bit
more.
So first, though, how did thatgo?
(05:54):
And maybe any advice for peoplethat are getting into a shop
that might take it over or might, you know, want to buy in?
Rick (06:06):
Yeah, I mean it really when you're when it's a small,
local kind of nonprofit notnonprofit, excuse me
independently owned type ofbusiness.
What I learned about it is thatthe process is quite
complicated, and so there was alot of legal processes involved,
(06:28):
and so this was a vision thatScott and Carolyn had probably
20 years yeah, at this point I'dsay 20 years ago because they
recognized that after they weregone, they wanted the pack rat
to continue to be what it wasand what they built it into.
To continue to be what it wasand what they built it into.
And so, in our case at the time, there were three long-term
(06:50):
managers that had been here, andin order to qualify for the
program, you had to be here aminimum of five years, and then
at that point, they basicallybuilt into our compensation.
We had the opportunity to workoff our ownership, or sort of
buy into it through our as partof our, our wages, if you will.
(07:17):
Now, obviously, that had to bedrawn up legally, and Carolyn
could speak to that much betterthan I can in terms of exactly
how that was done, but what theway it worked is that we gained
a certain percentage, as anindividual, of ownership per
year through a period of fiveyears, and at the end of five
(07:39):
years it was left, so thatCarolyn still owned the majority
she still owns about 55% of thebusiness and then the other
three managers split.
The other 45 was split amongstthe three.
One of those people has sinceleft.
She decided that she was readyto go a different way in life,
(08:04):
and she was, at the time, ourlongest tenured employee other
than Carolyn, and so now it'sjust Kevin and I and so, and of
course, carolyn, who's stillhere all the time, and so I
think what it did for I mean, Ican't speak for everyone exactly
, but I think I know what it didfor me and I have a hunch.
(08:25):
What it did for them is to,which is exactly what Scott and
Carolyn wanted it to do was tocreate this sense of ownership,
and this like directparticipation in the process of
what the business was becomingand what direction it was going
to go, and so we very muchbelieve in making decisions
(08:46):
based on consensus.
Everyone has a say Ultimately.
Carolyn still owns most of thebusiness.
She owns the building.
It's her final say, but she'salways been really receptive to
our feedback and the types ofthings that we think are
important for the direction thatPacker Eye wants to go, and a
huge part of that is community.
(09:07):
It's not always aboutprofitability per se.
None of us are doing thisbecause it's the way to make the
most money in life.
If that's your thing, it'sprobably not the job you want to
be in.
Dale (09:21):
Maybe consider getting into commercial real estate.
Rick (09:24):
Right, exactly, there's other things you could do, but I
think we're all very passionateabout the outdoors, we're all
very passionate about protectingthe environment, conservation,
and this is a way that we can beinvolved in those things, build
community and make a livingwhile we do it, and so yeah, I
love it.
Dale (09:43):
And you guys, in our conversation before we started
recording, we talk about how doyou compete against Amazon, and
you guys have put a lot ofenergy into building community.
Could you maybe and you're 10years into this Bruja Bushwhack,
(10:05):
give or take, right, you'regoing on your 10th year, so
you're there.
How does someone could you tellus a little bit more about,
maybe, some of the uncertainty?
And well, first off, you havewhat you said you get 400 people
to that.
Rick (10:25):
Yeah, on average it could be a little more or a little
less, but on average it'sprobably 400 people.
Dale (10:48):
So that's a success.
You're known for that.
People enjoy it.
It sells out have tripped youup.
That a lot of people you know,because there's a lot of this,
is a rare thing for you to comeup with an event and be on year
10.
That doesn't happen every day.
Rick (11:03):
Right, yeah, I mean I'm not going to lie Like this event
is complicated and it's apassion project for sure.
It takes a lot of really highqualified volunteers and people
that that I can trust to pull itoff.
I mean that's one of the thingsI want to emphasize is like
this thing is not just me, it'snot me doing all of this, it's a
(11:26):
big crew of of people that theycare a lot about doing it and
that's what makes it work.
Um and so um, you know, in thebeginning it's funny, it
happened almost by accident oneof the guys in town that owns
one of our local breweries this,the shop called fossilossil
Cove, or a brewery called FossilCove that we've had a really
(11:49):
long-term good relationship with, was in the store one day and
it was me and a couple other ofthe staff at the time and it was
literally by accident.
We started like brainstormingthis thing because it was slow
that day and the more we talkedabout it, the more I was like
this sounds incredible and Ihave a background too in
adventure racing.
I used to.
(12:09):
I've competed in otheradventure races and I've also.
I was a rigger for ropescourses for adventure through
other adventure races,specifically one called the
Ozark Challenge.
That was very popular here inthe 90s and you know, adventure
racing, like a lot of sports,goes through its ups and downs
and in the early 2000s or maybeyou know, mid 2000s, adventure
(12:32):
racing, from my perspectiveanyway, really was kind of dead.
There wasn't a lot happening inthe traditional sense like the
Eco Challenge and those types ofraces.
What was popular were theSpartan races and the Tough
Mudders and all that and I wascompeting and doing those just
for fun, you know athleticevents but I always felt like
(12:52):
something was missing from thoseand I really love that old
school idea of you know, goingout and orienteering and doing
all that.
But you know, to me I don't knowif I'm going to do something.
I don't want to do what's beendone before.
I want to make things uniqueand interesting and provide an
experience that maybe peopledon't have an opportunity to do
(13:15):
in other places skills andnature, identification and all
that type of stuff and so sortof selfishly, I just was like
what, what would be like anawesome day in the woods?
It'd be like really cool to goout and use a map and compass
(13:37):
and do a bunch of hiking, maybepaddle a canoe, go, you know,
look for animal sign, do somefirst aid scenarios, get some
rope course scenario involved inthere.
I mean just all the stuff thatI love to do, and it turns out a
whole bunch of other peoplelove to do that stuff too.
And the other thing I guessabout it is like I've made a ton
(13:58):
of mistakes over the years.
You can't be afraid.
You can't not do somethingbecause you're afraid of making
mistakes, because you're goingto make them.
That's just part of it.
What's important is empoweringother people around you to sort
of be able to problem solve andfix those.
And you know, learn from yourmistakes and move forward, you
(14:18):
know so yeah, so you're this.
Dale (14:22):
This is an embodiment.
This event is an embodiment ofyour past experience that you
were kind of expert in.
So it's uh not that somebodycouldn't do it, they didn't have
that skill but you're very muchgoing with your existing
tailwind to say, hey look, I'vedone adventure races, I've done
the tough mudders.
I teach you these things.
How can I build, uh, an eventaround all of these passions?
Rick (14:46):
Yeah, I mean pretty much.
But at the same time it waslike that, combined with me
knowing a lot of great A, havinga staff that bought into it,
then that was excited as I wasabout doing it, and then also
having a bunch of people in ourcommunity that either remembered
(15:08):
some of that those oldadventure race like the ozark
challenge or was just like youknow what.
This sounds cool.
And the other neat thing aboutthis event is like we'll have
people sign up and do the raceand then maybe a few years later
they become volunteers.
Um, and, and there's, I've hadso many people be like you know
(15:29):
what I may not race, but I wantto be involved in this as long
as I can be, and so if I'm notracing, I'm going to be a
volunteer, and then sometimesvolunteers, they learn stuff and
they get experience and thenthey become racers and it goes
both ways and I think it'sawesome.
Dale (15:43):
So so is it kind of like a spartan race and like a
bushcraft, you know, field daylike kind of thing like is it a?
Rick (15:53):
mix, except it's really, it's spread out, I guess, like
the thing about a spartan raceis different.
Well, first of all, it's notnearly as athletic, there's you
know.
So our slogan is you race forpoints, not for time on this
thing, and so you can come inlast and win.
Being fast and being strongonly helps you in the sense that
you can move faster from pointA to point B to complete the
(16:17):
challenges.
Dale (16:19):
So you've weighted down athleticism, so it's like it may
help, but it's not going to bea factor, it's not going to be
the driving factor.
Rick (16:26):
Correct.
Now.
Undoubtedly the teams thatusually place high are very
athletic teams because they canmove fast.
The one we just did in April,the winning team, I think they
went about 14 miles in sevenhours and that's on top of doing
a ton of skill work andchallenges shooting a bow and
(16:48):
arrow, doing first aid scenarios, paddling a canoe, doing
friction fire, all kinds ofstuff.
These are really skilled peoplethat are coming out and doing
this stuff.
Especially the last maybe fouror five years.
It's become very competitiveand you see these same teams
(17:09):
just neck and neck trying tooutdo each other every year.
And this team this year, a teamthat had been in the top three
for like oh, I forget maybe two,three years, now they, they
came up in one and I was.
It was awesome, I was so happyyeah.
Dale (17:24):
Dang, that sounds, that sounds so cool.
Yeah, I love it.
So yeah, you, you leveraged alot of your experience.
So maybe for other shop ownersand other you know other people
in your situations how can Ibuild community?
What kind of event could I do?
Maybe you'd look what are mypassions, what am I?
Rick (17:47):
skilled at absolutely, I think, leaning into your
personal, your own strengths andand what you love to do.
I mean to me it's if you don'tlike doing it, it's probably not
worth doing.
I mean, that's kind of whereI'm at too.
It's like I have very limitedamount of time.
I mean I have a family, twokids.
I, you know, run packer out.
I have another small businessthat I personally own, so I mean
(18:08):
I'm a busy guy and so to meit's like I'm really only
interested in getting putting myenergy and getting involved in
things that I enjoy doing andthat I think that others see
value in.
So lean into your strengths andnot just your own strengths, but
like look around in your staffor your friends, your community,
and like recognize thestrengths of the people around
(18:30):
you.
I mean there's all kinds ofpeople that help out with this
thing and other events that wedo, that are just very generous
people, but they're also highlyskilled people, whether that's,
you know, uh, medical, you knowEMTs, search and rescue, first
responder, that type of stuff.
Sometimes they're swift waterpeople.
I mean, you know, that's theawesome thing about the outdoor
(18:51):
community, I think, is that youdon't have to look very far to
find people that are, a willingto help and, b that are really
legitimately skilled people thatyou know, if you create that
community around it, a lot oftimes they're very willing to
help.
Dale (19:15):
Love it Cool.
Well, I'm going to hit you upbecause I want to have an
adventure challenge for a lot ofdifferent reasons.
Rick (19:20):
Cool In Utah, so yeah, let's talk.
Dale (19:21):
We should absolutely talk.
I think I love that Cool.
Well, and I and I do want tomake a I need to find a way to
come out to one of yours.
That'd be awesome.
Ok, so tell me what you know.
(19:45):
Let's go to two directions.
So first, if you were actuallyno, let's go to this other thing
.
First, management, just generalbusiness management, right, so
you've been in, you've beeninvolved in PACRAP for what?
20 years?
I've been here 25 years.
(20:09):
Like management principle ortechnique that you think has
helped you a lot, that you maybewere a part of, like pre it
being implemented, and then post, like whether that's employee
reviews or a different way totrack metrics or a different way
to manage your sales floor.
Is there something that youhave that you're doing a lot
(20:32):
differently now and seeing goodresults from that you didn't do,
say, 15 years ago?
Rick (20:38):
Golly, that's a really good question.
I think there's probably awhole lot of like small things
that end up collectively makinga big difference.
Okay, um, I know that.
You know, for me, stayingorganized is really critical.
If you're super busy, it's soeasy for something to get away
(21:00):
from you.
You know, maybe there's peoplein your staff that need
something from you and you'relike, yeah, I'll get to it.
And then time goes by and youstill haven't gotten to it, but
you owe that thing to thosepeople by, and you still haven't
gotten to it, but you owe thatthing to those people.
And so, you know, finding a wayto stay organized and be on a
(21:21):
timeline and if you tell yourstaff you're going to do
something, doing your best tofollow through with that thing
by when you said you were, isreally important.
And if you're, if you can't,like, letting them know you can
and why, and just being gettingin front of that, because you
know, I think that, again, beinga trustworthy person and being
someone that like is looked atas as, uh, the type of person
(21:45):
that is going to do what theyfollowed through, what they said
they were going to do on for me, I think, is just a really like
core principle of the type ofperson I try to be and I think
that you, you get more respectout of people if you behave that
way.
And and I know that becauseI've made mistakes in the past
you know, uh, I, I something,somebody needed something and
(22:07):
and there was maybe not as big apriority to me and I didn't
realize how big a priority itwas to that person.
And then you know it's justagain, it's just a time thing,
uh, when you're so busy.
But, um, I think, if you sayyou're going to do something
following through on it which Iknow that's really broad, but I
think it's really important,it's true, um, and then, um, I
(22:30):
think my biggest thing mostrecently that I'm like in the
middle of working on right nowthat I'm really bad at, is
delegating.
Um, I have had experiences inthe past where I tried to give
responsibility to other peopleand that didn't go so well.
And then I, my response in myown head was basically like,
(22:51):
okay, yeah, that's why I didn'tdo it in the first place.
Then you take it back and younever get anywhere and you just
keep adding to your to-do list,but then that causes all kinds
of other problems.
And so, you know, we have gonethrough a lot of change.
We have a very young staffrelative to what Packrat has
traditionally had right now,after we, one of our owners left
(23:19):
and our main floor manager left, and all that happened just
over a year ago, and so, buteven though sometimes in the
moment those things are painful,I think we're in a really good
spot because of the freshness ofperspective that we have and
allowing some other people'svoices to kind of come in and
play a bigger role in sort ofthe, the, the culture, internal
(23:41):
culture of the store and, andyou know, doing our best to be
transparent with our people and,um, being like, hey, look,
we're all in this together and,at the end of the day, what I
want most is for people to cometo work and feel respected and
enjoy their job as much as theycan, and so, you know, taking
feedback and implementing thatas often as you can.
(24:02):
There's going to be plenty oftimes when you were going to get
feedback and you're like, hey,I get it.
That would be great if we coulddo that, but it's just not
where we're at right now, foryou know, whatever it may be, um
but, if you can't um just behaving an honest conversation
about it, I think is superimportant.
Dale (24:22):
Mm-hmm, I love it.
Uh, you know it's.
Is there anything that you'vedone specifically, or like a
tool or book you read, orresource or somebody else's
example to help you realize thatyou weren't as organized as you
should be?
Rick (24:39):
I actually I had an opportunity.
So I was part of anentrepreneur program here in
Northwest Arkansas recently,this spring.
It was up in Bentonville.
There's a program calledGreenhouse Center for
Entrepreneur Development.
It's GORP is the name of it andit was actually for another
(25:01):
small business that I'm running.
But through that program, kindof unexpectedly, I had an
opportunity to take a veryin-depth personality assessment
and I don't want to get it allwrong, I don't want to say it
wrong, but I can get you thedetails of that and even the
(25:23):
person that administered thetest.
But it was about a three-hourwritten test that I took.
It was followed up with aseries of meetings.
One was in person, where thisindividual he's a professor at
the University of Arkansas andhe went through what all the
(25:45):
metrics of the personalityassessment meant and didn't open
anyone's actual report.
And then, individually, we wemet with him, um, and it was
very eye opening for me.
I mean none of it, I would say,was a surprise.
Uh, everything you read it waslike, okay, that tracks, this
(26:05):
track, so on and so forth.
But the things that he pulledout, um, when we had our
one-on-one discussion about,like, what the things that I
struggle with are and the waythat my decision-making process
works, was pretty eye-opening,and one of the best pieces of
advice that he gave to me wasthat you need to ask for help
(26:30):
sooner than you think and youneed to give when you, when you
delegate, you need to giveresponsibilities away very
slowly because of your the past.
You have where, with that kindof blow it up in your face a
little bit, and so I have begunbeen working out pretty well,
(26:53):
and so I think I you know, as aalmost 45 year old guy, I think
that sometimes, for me anyway, Ijust put my head down and I
just keep pushing, keep drivingand trying to be like you know,
I can, I can.
If I just work hard enough,I'll get all of this done,
(27:14):
everything that I need to do.
But I think it's important toknow where your your limits are
and where you need to ask forhelp, because there's other
people that are smarter than youor understand things better
than you.
And then the other part of thatis that it's actually learning
to ask for help and things.
It's not a weakness, it's astrength.
You know it's.
(27:35):
It's learning to you know thatnot everybody knows everything,
and I'll be the first one toadmit that.
I mean, even in retail I've beendoing this 25 years there's all
kinds of I learned stuff allthe time and there's all sorts
of things that either a I don't,I may, I'm not as good at it as
(27:58):
some people or B quite frankly,it's just not that interesting
to me and I would rather havesomeone else who's better at it
or more interested in it beworking on that component of the
business with the stuff that Ilove the community building, the
, you know the skills, you knowthose types of things that I
(28:19):
really love that make my shopwhat it is and make it unique.
And then, when it comes to youknow, marketing and bookkeeping
and a lot of these other things,like, go find other people that
can lean into those things thatare way better at it than I am.
Dale (28:30):
Anyway, yeah, or or a a 90 minute line review of a new
apparel line with the differentcolors and things.
You might like hard goodsbetter.
Rick (28:39):
Yeah, exactly yeah, I'm only a buyer because I can buy
hard goods.
Yeah, if I had a bag on yourfootwear, I would probably not
be that's how I was too.
Dale (28:51):
I'm like I do not want to sit through and look at any of
this clothing.
I know the colors change and Ican't dress myself anyways Like
I'm not the guy to do this.
Rick (28:59):
Me neither.
I wear a t-shirt and a hatevery single day of my life.
Dale (29:04):
Yeah Well, I wore a collared shirt for you today.
So, yeah, the.
You know, it's funny that youmention the just becoming more
reliable at the end of the dayand every project that I've done
.
Yeah, when you can work withpeople who say, oh, I haven't
done that yet, or I can't dothat, or I don't know the right,
(29:27):
like just being very clearabout, yes, I'll do that for you
, but not this week, I'll do itnext week.
Oh, I can't do that today, I'mtoo busy, I will do that
tomorrow.
Um, I, I work with my brother,bruce, and I, I I trust him and
everybody else trusts himbecause he's very good at just,
he has a list and everything heever commits to.
You know that it's in his worldand it won't.
(29:51):
It made it to the list where, inmy first business, I had an
aunt that worked for me, whowould, who showed me that I
wasn't actually very reliablebecause, you know, working with
her for a long time she's a deal.
Did you do this yet?
Oh, no, not.
Yet she comes back two hourslater.
Did you get that done?
I need that done, oh, okay, ok,no one's done that to me as the
(30:11):
boss before, right, but she wasmy aunt, you know, right, and,
and it was cool to work in thathigher level of accountability.
Yeah, and everything goesbetter when people are just
straight up.
Rick (30:25):
No, it's true.
I mean, accountability isimportant and you know, again,
I'm not immune from makingmistakes and forgetting things.
But I know that about myself.
And if I, I don't love the factthat I have to do it, but I
live and die by my calendar andif it doesn't get written on my
calendar it's kind of not realto me.
Dale (30:44):
And I know that about me because you emailed me earlier
this morning to say I didn't geta confirmation here what's the
meeting, what time.
This was four hours before andand I can tell that, yeah,
that's a, that's a strength ofyours for sure.
Rick (31:01):
Cool.
Dale (31:02):
Awesome One QBP quality bike products.
They had a.
They had this like personnel orit was like a management matrix
of of like they called itbehaviors, personal
responsibilities, managementmatrix of of like they called it
behaviors, personalresponsibilities and one of them
.
One of the things they wantedpeople to realize was that your
perspective is only one of manyperspectives, and I think that's
(31:24):
a bit of what you're saying,like it's not right or wrong.
Your perspective is,perspective is one of many.
Rick (31:31):
Yeah, absolutely yeah, and and I I remembered it, the the
assessment that I took is calledthe Hogan assessment.
Dale (31:38):
Ah see, I've heard of that one.
Rick (31:39):
Yeah, I didn't want to say it wrong, but I remembered it
so, um, so, if you know, ifanyone watches this and they
have any questions, they'rewelcome to send me an email
about that, because I it reallywas a pretty eyeopening process,
um, and I could, and I coulddirect them to some additional
resources related to that ifthey're interested, but it is a
(32:00):
time-consuming commitment to gothrough it.
Dale (32:05):
Well, you're in it 25 years, so it sounds like that's
made a meaningful difference inyour trajectory.
Rick (32:10):
Yeah, and I've actually turned other people on to it
since then and they have givenme similar feedback that they
were like hey, thanks fortelling me about this trajectory
.
Yeah, and I've actually turnedother people on to it since then
and I've had they have given mesimilar feedback that they were
like hey, thanks for telling meabout this.
I found a lot of value in it.
Dale (32:21):
So Love it Okay, so we're at time.
We have time for one morequestion.
Cause I'm going to go?
Cause I asked permission if Icould go a couple minutes over,
yeah.
That's what we're doing um, soyou could your uh advice that
you'd give to a new retailerstarting up oh golly, uh, yeah
(32:44):
and you'd mention that not beingthe specialized piece yeah, for
sure.
Rick (32:49):
I mean, don't be afraid to specialize.
But I think the first questionI'd ask him is like what, what
is it that you're trying to getout of becoming an outdoor
retailer?
Like what's what's the end goalthere, um, for you?
And like, what are you gonna dothat isn't already being done
100 other places with peoplethat probably have more
resources and assets than you do?
Um, and that's not to scareanyone away, but it's just a
(33:12):
kind of like, bring in thisawareness of, like, what you're
up against right now, like thisis a very challenging.
I mean again been doing this along time.
I've never it's never been ascomplicated as it is now and
it's never been as hard andchallenging as it is right now.
And you know we have a lot ofthings going for us.
You know, being where we are,um, with the great crew that we
(33:36):
have, the history 51 years inbusiness that we have, um, we
have an amazing facility 15,000square foot log cabin.
I mean we're, we're in like a,we have a lot of great things
going for us and all thosethings.
It's still hard, um, and so youknow I I kind of half joking,
half jokingly, but not reallyI'm like man, I'm working twice
(33:58):
as hard as I was, you know, twoyears ago, making less money
right now.
It's like this is kind of whatit is, and if you can't laugh
about that then you probablyshouldn't become a retailer.
Yeah, it's kind of how I lookat it.
But at the same time, I thinkthe benefits of it are the
people, the relationships andthe opportunities, and so if you
(34:19):
value those types of things alot, then I think you can find a
way to make a living doing thisand you know it's going to be
worthwhile.
But if you're doing it because,oh, outdoor gear is cool and I
could, you know, make a lot ofmoney doing that, I would, I
would think real hard.
Uh, before you, you know,wanted to.
(34:39):
If that was your reasoning, soto speak.
Dale (34:41):
Yeah, Love it.
Tell me one one little bitabout.
You said uh, another thing youadded that I thought was really
interesting and that you'velived out really well in your
business was don't be afraid tospecialize and also, um it, you
know, don't be afraid of justbeing a little weird trying for
(35:02):
sure.
Rick (35:03):
Well, don't be afraid of being a weird in the sense that,
like you know, again, my, myversion of that is you come in
here in a in a very much atraditional outdoor shop.
You, you know, we got Patagonia, we got Yakum, we got Osprey,
we got all those things that youexpect to see in a shop like
this.
But we also have, like, somereally interesting niche
(35:24):
American made stuff which I'msuper proud of.
We have traditional bows andarrows, we have a bushcraft
knives.
You know, we have some uniqueitems that you're not going to
find in a lot of other types ofshops.
And the other thing I think togo along with that is like
listen to your people.
Like, if you've got key staffthat are on your sales floor,
(35:47):
they're having moreconversations with your
customers than you probably are,and so if you're not taking
their advice, then you'reselling yourself short, and, and
so you need to routinely haveconversations with the people
that are selling the stuff thatyou're buying or that you're
bringing in your store.
Just like, just the other day,one of my guys actually not just
multiple of my employees werelike hey, we're getting a lot of
(36:11):
people asking for outdoorquilts, like I had tried quilts
in the past and never had awhole lot of success for them
with them, and but I was likeyou know what.
It's been a while since wereally did much with quilts,
like let's bring them in, let'ssee what happened or what
happens with them.
We haven't had many for a whilejust yet they're still kind of
(36:32):
new in the store.
But I think that does two things.
One is it shows that employeethat you were listening to their
feedback and you're actuallydoing something based upon what
they told you to do.
And then if it sells, that'sgreat for you.
And if it doesn't sell, thatshows them that hey, I listened
(36:54):
and it didn't work out andthat's OK, but we'll, we'll look
, we'll find the next one.
But if you just tell people noall the time and you shut them
down after a while, they'regoing to stop coming to you with
ideas and that's not going tohelp you either.
And so I think listening is,you know, which is, again, it's
sort of a cliche, but, like alot of people say, it's one
(37:15):
thing, say it's another thing todo it and to act upon the
feedback you get from listeningto people.
And so, again, every decisionyou make can always be about the
bottom line, and if that's theway you look at it, maybe being
an outdoor retailer is not theright place for you.
Dale (37:35):
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome Cool.
Well, it's really been great tochat with you today.
Rick (37:41):
Likewise.
Dale (37:42):
I'm excited to announce our new adventure someday.
So we'll figure it out, stay intouch.
Send me an email, we'll talkabout it.
Awesome, thanks so much.
All right, thanks Dale.
Outro (37:52):
Thank you for joining us on the Adventure Retail Podcast.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep innovating and remember
you're not alone on this retailjourney.
See you on the trail.
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