April 23, 2025 • 43 mins
What does it take to build a purpose-driven retail business that lasts? In this episode, Dale chats with Marc Sherman of Outdoor Gear Exchange to unpack the real behind-the-scenes work of sustainable growth. From creating vendor co-op programs and curating products with intention, to building trust with customers through simple but strong recommendations, Marc shares how a clear point of view shapes everything.
They dive into the balance between mission and margin, the importance of weekly financial check-ins, and why operational discipline isn’t just for spreadsheets—it’s the backbone of community impact. Marc also opens up about resisting the allure of top-line growth, the power of saying “no” to participation-trophy partnerships, and how candid conversations keep teams aligned.
Whether you’re a shop owner, brand builder, or just someone who wants to lead with integrity, this conversation is a masterclass in grounded entrepreneurship.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Dale (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the
podcast.
Today I've got Mark Shermanfrom Outdoor Gear Exchange and
GearXcom.
Hello Mark, hello Dale, how areyou?
It's good to see you.
Yes, I'm really excited toshare you with everyone and
share your story today.
First question if you could,I'd love to understand, kind of
(00:24):
how you got here to where youare into retail.
So if there are any like stintsor things that you did before
becoming a retailer that mighthave been formative.
Yeah, absolutely, if you couldgive us maybe a 90 second
overview.
Marc (00:39):
Oh, 90 seconds.
That's going to be tough.
But I grew up in the metro NewYork area in New Jersey and was
doing a lot of outdoor thingswith my family.
We camped a lot and I think atthe time a lot of that was
because we it was an affordablefamily vacation at the time.
Skiing was also affordable.
My parents were avid skiers, sowe did a lot of that, spent a
(01:00):
lot of time canoeing in theDelaware river and just enjoying
time outside.
And as I got out of college andmoved into Manhattan for the job
that I thought I was supposedto be having, with a suit and a
tie on, I realized I wasspending more and more time
outside the city and going toseek these adventures in places
like Vermont, which is where Idecided to end up settling
(01:21):
because that's where I wasenjoying myself more than where
I was living.
And over time I moved up hereand, I think, fell in love with
the idea of sharing my love ofthe outdoors with people, and as
friends came to visit, we wouldgo on hikes and camping trips
and I would share gear with themand one day, sitting with a
(01:41):
friend a few friends actually inthe Adirondacks camping,
talking about the fact that weall had a lot more gear than we
needed and we had friends whodidn't have any.
And wouldn't there be a way toconnect those?
And one of the people on thetrip had spent his college years
in San Francisco and there's astore there at one time called
the Wilderness Exchange.
(02:01):
Jerry Jordan ran that store andhe's often referred to as the
godfather of the consignment andcloseout gear shop and I'm
still in touch with himoccasionally.
But he more or less helped uswrite our business plan to get
started.
And then we sat on it for awhile and finally decided let's
give this a shot.
We want to build a gear shopthat we'd like to shop in and
(02:25):
focus on the consumer and try tosort of harness that energy to
make something fun for people tobe in and share our love.
And that worked.
We started out in 800 squarefeet on Main Street in
Burlington in 1995.
And at the time very few brandswould actually sell to us
because another retailer in townhad a lot of the dealerships
(02:47):
locked up and so we foundourselves selling second tier
and third tier and often fourthtier product.
But we loved what we chose tosell and we were able to sell it
because we were able to engagewith our customers and talk
about it, and I just rememberbeing really shocked at the
notion that anyone would bewilling to spend what it cost to
(03:07):
buy a Dana Design Pack at thetime, which was $300 and $400
and more and you know this was30 years ago, so those are real
dollars and it didn't take longto understand that.
You know you're helping peopleto invest in a future and invest
in enjoying themselves morewhen they were outside, and it
(03:28):
became more of an opportunity tohelp someone outfit themselves
for a lifestyle that I valuedand that they obviously valued
enough to come in and shop.
And it became a lot easier andit helped us find new product
and as our name got out there inthe industry, locally and
throughout the various tradeshows and whatnot, I think we
(03:49):
were finding ourselves having aneasier time getting product and
getting brands.
And we were talking you and Iearlier and I didn't get to say
this, but I think part of thereason that these podcasts or
trade shows are really valuableis to be part of the
conversation, and to be part ofa conversation that you're not
sure where it's going, but ifyou can get 20 percent or 30
(04:12):
percent of something out of itor make a contact or a
connection or have like a littlelight bulb moment where you
hear something that someone elseis doing and think oh yeah.
I could modify that to work forwhat we're doing.
That's the value in being partof that conversation, and so we
opened in 1995.
And we opened on May 1.
So we're just starting our 30thyear now and we went to the
(04:37):
first outdoor retailer in Junebecause we felt we needed to be
as part of the industry and wewanted to see what was going on.
And at the time, because wefelt we needed to be as part of
the industry and we wanted tosee what was going on, and at
the time hydration was beginningto be a thing, camelback was
relatively new and at the timeeveryone was drinking out of an
algae bottle and I rememberbeing very skeptical of this new
(04:58):
technology because I likedstopping, sitting down on a rock
, opening up my bottle anddrinking.
And very quickly it was apparentthat you know what I was doing
wasn't necessarily what theindustry was doing and that you
know our job was to sell topeople what the technology was
that was going to work betterand what people wanted.
So it was a combination of thisis how I've always done it and
(05:19):
this is where things are going.
But I find it so interestingthat that first show that I went
to.
We hired my now businesspartner to run the shop while we
were out of town because wedidn't want to close immediately
, but we knew we needed to go.
It was in Reno and I'm excitedthat you know to go back to
another trade show that's inReno.
(05:39):
So the first and next tradeshow that I ever went to were in
the same place.
Dale (05:45):
Yeah, so how I love that.
So you started very much fromthis.
You're passionate about outdoorgear, you're passionate about
the outdoors.
You move from the city toVermont and there's this idea of
a consignment store.
How do we share gear?
Used gear, consignment gear Doyou still have an element of
(06:05):
that in your businessConsignment or used?
Marc (06:08):
Yeah, not just an element, it's a critical element.
It has been for 30 years andcontinues to be 10% to 11% of
our walk-in business every month.
And in fact we recently, inresponse to some market
pressures and foot trafficreductions that we're seeing in
Burlington, closed the basementof our store and consolidated
(06:32):
everything onto the first floor.
And that included movingconsignment onto the first floor
.
And regardless of what wepublicized about it, the one
thing we got, the one comment wekept seeing, was why are you
closing consignment?
And we love consignment and weneeded to be really clear.
We weren't closing it.
(06:55):
In fact we're now about toexpand it again because of the
interest.
People really liked the deal.
We are very careful about whatwe accept.
So people come in and know thatthey're not going to be walking
through a thrift shop rack ofcrappy pants and jackets.
They're looking at brandedclothing that our customer is
looking to sell easily and notnecessarily getting top dollar
for it, but getting what wethink is reasonable.
(07:15):
And for years and years andwe're still Outdoor Gear
Exchange itself is still notopen as a dealer for Patagonia,
but for years Patagonia had beenour number one brand and it was
all consigned products.
Dale (07:29):
Yeah, I love that.
If I were to open up a shoptomorrow, I would have a strong
consignment element.
Consignment speaks to my soulfrom reusing, not having
something go to waste.
There's so much gear inpeople's closets that should be
on trails.
Well, the consignment modeldoes so much more than that.
Marc (07:51):
The consignment model covers everything that we all
value.
One you have a way to take thegear that you once used and put
it in someone else's handsinstead of putting it in the
landfill.
You can help somebody else whomight be just getting started in
their outdoor pursuits buysomething more affordably
because, let's face it, the gearthat we use is expensive.
(08:14):
You know it is.
You are getting outside and thewilderness is mostly free, but
the gear isn't, and that's gonein the wrong direction in some
ways, as things have gotten morecomplicated.
So we take the gear that wehave and we pass it on to
somebody else Gives us anopportunity to turn what we have
into some money so that we canbuy new gear.
(08:35):
And we keep the gear out of thelandfill and we get that cycle
going and it's repetitive.
We'll sell the same item fivetimes.
Because one person buys it new,they sell it used from.
Someone buys it used, they useit for a while, they realize
they actually do really lovebackpacking and now they want to
go buy a brand new backpack.
Well, they sell that usedbackpack because it typically
(08:57):
people don't use their gearenough for it to be unsellable
even if it starts out used yeah,that's awesome, it's, it's
a it.
That's awesome.
It's reuse and recycle and, Iguess, in that sense, reduce
because you're buying less stuff.
Yeah, it really speaks to allof what we love.
And when I work on the salesfloor at any given time, I
(09:20):
continue to be amazed at theamount of consignment product
that comes in.
To be amazed at the amount ofconsignment product that comes
in to be bought.
And, to be clear, when I saywe're at 10% to 11% of our sales
, that's at 10% to 11% of oursales in dollars and when you
consider the lower price forthose items, that's the
equivalent probably of more like20% in units.
Dale (09:41):
Yeah, that's interesting, I love it.
20% units Hmm, yeah, that'sinteresting, I love it.
Um, what uh has that?
Has that influenced a lot ofyour, your brand, this, this
mission of getting gear intopeople's hands and it happens to
happen through consignment wasthe main vehicle.
Has that spilled into your restof your?
Marc (10:05):
brand.
Yeah, I wouldn't say mainvehicle.
I mean, when we started we wereselling all used, all
consignment, and then someaccessories that we're buying
through at, you know, peregrineOutfitters at the time, now
owned by Liberty Mountain Sports.
And as we realized that ourcustomers were going to stores
(10:25):
like EMS to buy a product thatwe couldn't sell them used, we
started reaching out anddeciding well, why would we send
someone away after they stoppedby us first to buy something
used?
Let's make sure we have thatitem for them one way or the
other.
And that's the challenge in aconsignment or a used business
is you don't have as muchcontrol over what you have to
offer your customer.
(10:45):
So we created this sort ofhybrid model and it was really.
It was well-received.
We always sold full priceproduct next to discounted
product and it's always worked,because some people want the
newest and the greatest, Somepeople want the least expensive,
some people want somethingright in the middle and some
people just love a deal and loveto find something on a rack
(11:07):
that they didn't think they weregoing to find and wow, I'm
going to pick this up.
I've been looking for this.
I actually just picked up apack on consignment that I saw
and said, wow, I haven't seenthis anywhere.
It's three years old, it's notbeing made anymore.
I'm going to pick this pack upnow.
I'm going to pick this pack upnow and it's usually a pretty
quick discussion because they'reall one-offs.
You know it's not going to bethere in a week.
(11:28):
And we found that mostconsignment items either sell
within 30 days of getting on therack or they'll sit around for
a year and then they get donated.
But the good stuff goes quicklyand the other stuff just sits
there.
Dale (11:41):
Hmm, okay, awesome.
So you've been doing this since19.
So you're beginning your 30thyear May 1st.
You started 95.
And well, actually one point.
And then I've got a question.
But I love that you said thatyou started and then you felt
(12:03):
like you needed to be involvedin the industry.
So you go to Reno, to the tradeshow, yeah, and I, yeah, I
don't know if, I don't know whowouldn't benefit from that kind
of just industry involvement.
That was a big part of a lot ofthe major shifts that I made as
(12:27):
a retailer came from going totrade shows and meeting people
and as a bike retailer, I wentto, I went to interbike and I
went to Eurobike and I went toTaipei show and I can't really,
uh, so many of the major changeswe made.
The value of leaving thebusiness, being with industry
peers and just being out thereand going back to the business
was super valuable, absolutely.
(12:49):
Had you made that a practicefor your whole, for the life of
outdoor gear exchange, ofstaying connected to the
industry.
Marc (12:57):
Yeah, and I think that's that.
We love our customers.
We love the gear that we selland the activities we engage in,
but we also.
The outdoor industry is magical.
It is filled with passionatesouls.
Obviously, trade shows are alot of salespeople, and
salespeople are gregarious andfun to hang out with, but making
(13:19):
relationships is what all ofthis is about, whether it's with
our customers, with our staffor with our brands.
Those relationships are whatmake what we do more than just a
job, and so going to thosetrade shows twice a year was a
piece of what we did.
I think up until the pandemic, Ididn't miss a single OR summer
(13:40):
show, and once we startedselling snow gear, I didn't miss
a single OR snow show.
And once we started sellingsnow snow gear, we are.
I didn't miss a single or snowshow, um, and so that cycle even
though it wasn't always at themost convenient time it wasn't
always super cheap to go Um, itwas really important because if
you're not getting a pulse ofthe industry, it's kind of hard
to know what what's going on Um,and so I found that really
(14:03):
valuable and and that's shifteda little to the grassroots
outdoor show, but it's still.
It's a group of close friends,and I have friends who have left
the industry.
I was just on the phone with asales manager from a company
that we had been working withand before that he was with
another company and it'ssomebody we met years and years
and years ago when he was oursalesperson at Liberty Mountain
(14:25):
Sports, and he's not in theindustry anymore and we still
stay in touch.
We're still close friends and Ithink those friendships are not
infrequent in this industry andI've tried to explain this to
my wife and that the trade showpeople that we see, they know
what's going on in my life, eventhough I see them six times or
(14:47):
every once every six months, andyou know when you see them,
they they ask how's your sondoing what?
Why are you going on a trip?
How did that turn out?
And and yes, again, we'retalking about salespeople and
this is what we all do is keeptrack of what the people we talk
to are doing, so that we canconnect.
But that feels like a separatecommunity and I think one of the
(15:09):
things that's cool about it isit's a separate community,
really separate, like I seepeople.
I see you once every six months, yet I know you know what your
last family adventure was onyour bikes and you know what
you're doing and when we connectit's not without some awareness
of who we are and that's reallyhelpful and it's warm and
(15:30):
welcoming.
And I'll say, you know I'vebeen to trade shows and
obviously you know we've talked.
Last November went to a tradeshow Things were really
struggling with with my businessand and some of the
relationships we had and it wasso welcoming and and warmly
welcoming to be at that show andbe amongst friends who
understood and were in aposition and interest of helping
(15:51):
make sure that we continuethose relationships and and
that's so invaluable and hasreally, you know, I've had
people look at that and say, wow, you guys, you have an amazing
thing going on the industry andwhatnot.
You have an amazing thing goingon the industry and whatnot.
And we have a friend who usedto be the commissioner of Forest
(16:19):
Parks and Recreation in Vermontand he came out make a
difference and make sure thatthings continued positively in
the outdoors and with our retailpositions and came back and we
started the Vermont OutdoorRecreation Economic
Collaborative, which was one ofthe many state-based outdoor
economic groups that was sort ofbuilt on understanding the
(16:43):
economic vitality in the outdoorindustry and you know, in Utah
you had Tom Adams doing that fora while and there was I forget
who the Colorado guy was.
But you know the states thathave a big investment in the
outdoors saw that value and sodid the commissioner of forest
parks and recreation and thatwas a.
You know it was a pleasure tobe part of forming that
(17:04):
organization and being involvedin that and seeing it to the
next step and moving on, and nowI'm in a different, similar but
non-governmental basedorganization for it.
Dale (17:13):
Yeah, awesome.
So the connection and thecamaraderie that comes from it.
And then, yeah, I always foundthat I had so many good ideas
coming back from a trade showfor my business that I didn't
have sitting, you know, sittingat HQ Right Things.
I wasn't thinking of meetingpeople like you that you know
(17:36):
might be doing somethingdifferent or better that I
hadn't considered so awesome.
Marc (17:42):
I love that, well, I think you know, we've been doing
business with Grand Trunks since, I think, the first year that
your company was in business.
Okay, Long before you bought it.
And that's because of therelationships we have with our
sales reps.
And you know sales reps arereally important in this
industry and we've seen brandspresence in our store go up and
down as sales reps change andyou know the relationship
(18:05):
building that goes with oneperson versus another and how
they see the business and whattheir view of partnership is,
and it's incredibly valuable andit makes a really big
difference.
But but those things happen ina trade show Cause, like you
said, you get out of HQ, you'renot, the phone's not ringing,
you're not getting texts oremails or or staff coming in and
(18:27):
asking questions about someurgent matter that's urgent in
their mind, whether it is or itisn't, and you need to step in
and do that.
And so you get to be aroundother people who are focused on
the industry and become thoughtpartners.
And I've got an ADD mind and Ifind that if I can sit, I get
the most ideas when I'm sittingin a board meeting, not around
(18:50):
necessarily what the boardmeeting is being talked about,
but my mind, when it getsfocused on something like that,
starts drilling down ideas.
And I think the same thinghappens to trade shows.
You're in there you're focusedon the trade show and lots of
ideas start pouring in and youjust have to write them down and
go back and sort through themand even if only 10% of them are
useful, that 10% might not havecome up without that
(19:13):
environment to be in 100%.
Dale (19:16):
I love that.
So one question, and this hasto do, I guess, me as a brand
kind of putting my brand hat onand then thinking about it to
better understand yourperspective as a retailer.
But in talking internally atGrand Trunk, sometimes I ask the
(19:39):
question if these retailerswere owned by our favorite uncle
and we're the favorite nephew,or if I'm your high school
friend and you're the bestfriend and you want everything
good in the world for me and I'mthe brand, how do you as a
retailer partner with me?
So kind of?
(20:08):
I'd love to explore both sidesa little bit how do you deeply
connect with and work with abrand and how would a brand
deeply with and work with abrand?
And how would a brand deeplyconnect and work with with you?
Cause you have a few sorry toElke before you've been pretty
creative in working with brandsand having ways.
(20:30):
A lot of people will say, hey,let me know if there's anything
we can do to deep more.
It's almost like it's a.
It's the right thing to say.
Let me know if there's anythingthat we can do to support you.
Where you have actually come upwith legitimate programs.
Oh well, great, we have thisstore for you can sponsor the
storefront.
You have these programs inplace, but I'd love to just
explore that, this question,with you.
Marc (20:52):
Yeah, no, that's a great point.
I mean, first of all, um, Ithink the one thing that we've
taken as our focus from thebeginning is you can do business
with people who are easy to dobusiness with.
You can do business with peoplewho are hard to do business
with, and if you have to choose,you're always going to choose
the one that's easy to dobusiness with.
Obviously, dollars matter, butsame playing ground.
(21:16):
We try to be easy to dobusiness with, we try to place
our orders on time, we try tofollow through, we try to look
at what's new and try to sellsome of that.
And really larger, largerplayers in the field who have a
profit center on chargebacks,you know, did the pallet come in
with the right kind ofstrapping?
Was it two days late?
(21:43):
Was it 10%?
Too few items?
And you know we're going tocharge you a percentage on that,
and their orders volume is bigenough to justify that, and you
as a brand are like well, weneed this order, we're going to
suffer through these charges.
Yet at the same time, we'vebeen told by industry partners
(22:06):
that we don't ask for enough ofthat.
But that's a whole differentdiscussion and I've certainly
asked for a lot from people thisyear and found the support to
be incredible.
And when I look at what you'retalking about, you know, with
co-op programs, a lot of brandslike Grand Trunk have a co-op
program or at least a co-opconcept.
We'd like to support you toadvertise Grand Trunk in your
(22:29):
store, but we need to tell youwhat we're going to do.
And I found that I was going totrade shows and I wasn't doing
any buying anymore.
We had a buying team and so Iwould sit in on some of those
meetings but my mind wouldwander and people would joke
yeah, if Duck's going to sit inthe meeting, there's going to be
a lot of jokes and distractions.
That's my ADD mind operating,but I think that my nickname is
(22:55):
Duck.
I realize that might not havebeen clear, but I started sort
of thinking okay, how this isvaluable time.
I've got a family, I've got ahome I like to care for.
I've got friends at home.
I'm busy.
How do I make this trip to thetrade show meaningful beyond
just sitting through meetingsthat are on the calendar?
And I started thinking about mywork with the marketing that we
(23:17):
do.
And, okay, how do we work withour brands to give them value
with the co-op dollars that wecan spend.
And we started.
We came up with, essentially, aco-op program, very formalized
and printed out in Google formin a slideshow presentation that
had real dollars on it, so thatwe can say, yeah, we can do
(23:40):
this, this is what it costs,this is what you get, and we'd
love to get you involved.
And we very quickly found that,thanks to an incredibly
creative woman that worked forus doing our windows, that the
windows that we have on ChurchStreet which, for those who
don't know Burlington, windowsthat we have on church street
which, for those who don't knowburlington but might know
boulder better, it's similar topearl street and boulder um, we
(24:02):
have windows that we needed toset up and have as displays, and
so we basically started sellingthose windows and the
creativity of liza, who wasdoing them, was so good and now
lindsey's doing them and she'sstepped in really well that
those windows became acornerstone to our marketing
(24:23):
program.
And I would come to a tradeshow and people would want to do
one and I'd be telling themwell, you can't, we're pretty
much they're all taken for thenext 15 months and it became
such a demand and you know it'sbrand building.
It's not just about Outdoor GearExchange.
If you're walking down ChurchStreet and you see a window with
(24:43):
Grand Trunk product in it, withmannequins hanging around and a
nice tailgate scene or ahammocking scene, you're seeing
the brand.
You're not just seeing thebrand in Outdoor Gear Exchange's
window and you may or may notstop in at OGE, but when you
walk by that brand is imprintedand the next time you see an ad
(25:05):
in Outside Magazine or aFacebook posting from Grand
Trunk, that imprint is magnifiedand amplified and that's
incredibly valuable and it'salso made those trade shows
really fun and enjoyable becauseI get to talk to lots of
different people.
It's not just about buyingthings.
It's about talking about ourbusinesses and how we can
collaborate and yes, there'smoney involved, but it's
(25:26):
business and that's how it works.
But it's still been rewarding tosee how that's helped us
develop our program and we'rerevising that this year based on
a lot of what's going on, butespecially the challenges in
having monobranded windows andwhere that puts us in terms of
logistics.
And so we're not going to, we'renot doing away with our windows
(25:48):
, but we're changing how we'redoing it and you know that gets
to what you and I talked about alittle earlier, which is, you
know, tomorrow may not look liketoday, and it's our job to keep
a focus.
One of our partners I think theowner of Darn Tough Vermont has
said what got us here will nottake us to the next level, but
(26:11):
we can't forget what's got ushere, and so it really is a
blending of looking backwardsand looking forwards and knowing
that the future is not going tolook like the past, but we got
here for a reason and we need tofocus on those core things, and
that's sort of what we talkedabout earlier in terms of making
sure we're outfitting peoplefor the outdoors and being
respectful of their financialconstraints, and the need to
(26:35):
move gear around and get newpeople involved, as well as
outfit the people who've beendoing it for two decades.
Dale (26:42):
Yeah, so that.
So you've got ways for brandsto deeply part, to partner in a
big, in a meaningful way withyou guys through your co-op
program.
So you've kind of created that.
And when people say, hey, letus know how we can, you know, be
more involved, you have a sheetthat you can hand over.
Well, here's the way that youcan be.
(27:02):
If you really want to beengaged, then do that.
I think a lot of shops canlearn from that.
Marc (27:09):
Yep, summit Hut out of Arizona does the same thing and
they've got a great program andI think it's there are a few
shops that do it and it takeswork and it takes focus.
And if you've got a shop that'sonly got one person going to
the trade show, it's kind ofhard to get that done.
(27:29):
And so we're in a uniqueposition where we have the staff
to do it and our business hasdefinitely gotten a little bit
smaller in terms of headcount,but we're still going to the
trade show with the full teamand I think that's really
important because it is you know, that those are investments in
the future and investment inthose relationships.
But, to your point, how manytimes does someone say, well,
(27:51):
what can I do for you?
And you don't have an answer?
When we go back to our customerbase, when we started, we began
setting up these gift lists forChristmas and they would be
organized on one side by priceand another side by activity and
we'd hand them out to ourcustomers.
We put them in shopping baskets, they would be in a display as
(28:11):
you walked in and I would ask mystaff to just say you know what
are your go-tos and you know ifsomeone comes in and says I'm,
I'm going to a graduation.
I have no idea what to get thisperson.
What would you suggest?
And you know I'll say that forgraduation my number one
suggestion is a hammock, and andat Christmas it's often a
(28:32):
headlamp.
But to have something, so thatwhen a friend said friend said
when I started the business, Isaid just have an opinion.
If someone's coming into yourstore to ask you a question and
to shop, they want to know whatyou think.
And so if someone says to youdo you have any ideas on what I
could get this person who likesto be outside for this event
coming up?
(28:53):
Well, you need to have ananswer ready and the answer can
start with a question Well, whatare they into?
But if you're in a timesensitive moment, it's great to
have a couple go-tos and I don'tpick, they're not picked up in
air.
I can honestly say that I don'tgo anywhere without a hammock in
my bag, because I just I likesetting up between two trees and
(29:16):
hanging out, even if I justhave a half an hour to do it,
and and it doesn't take up a lotof space.
But so for me, making thatrecommendation is really easy
because it's what I believe inprogram.
Dale (29:38):
It's so smart.
When I saw you present it fouryears ago at GOA I'm like, well,
he's got it together.
That is a pretty you know.
Yeah, I was really impressed bythat For a if you had, if I'm
your, if I am a brand owner andin this case I am at Grand Trunk
and you were, and we were bestfriends growing up and you
wanted everything.
Um, you wanted to do everythingpossible for my success as a
(30:02):
store owner and and I had that,as there were certain reps that
I really liked I'm arelationship guy and people that
I like I want to help.
So, um, if, if somebody, if arep comes in that I really care
about and they bring a newproduct in, I'm going to go out
on a limb to try to make themsuccessful.
(30:22):
But what kinds of things?
As a shop, if you need to liketurn up the effort or turn up
the heat for a brand, what kindsof things do you do?
Marc (30:34):
I mean, I think we can lean into the marketing program
and add things to it.
I think we can talk aboutdisplays in the store which are
incredibly valuable and makesure that our offering is fresh.
So you know, it's a give and atake.
So we might sort of suggest hey, we've got a product, I think
you've got some new items comingout.
(30:54):
Can we swap this out so thatwhat we have on the shelf is
what you're interested in ourcustomers seeing is what you're
interested in our customersseeing?
We're also really honest.
One of the things we did when westarted was, instead of selling
everything that the brandwanted us to sell, and becoming
essentially a concept shop forthat brand, we picked and we
(31:16):
chose from each differentoffering to make sure that we
were looking at what thecustomer needed.
But being honest with ourbrands and giving feedback is
really important.
We had a now former footwearbuyer who was brought out to
multiple of our footwear brandsfor focus groups to look at new
(31:37):
lines and sort of give feedbackon colors and design and
features, because we are able totalk about that and we're
willing to and that's apartnership.
So, yeah, I want to support youas my best friend from high
school, but I don't want to giveyou a participation trophy by
having a spot in the shop.
I want to help you help mewhile helping you get your
(31:58):
product out there, but itdoesn't do any of us any good
for me to fill a rack full ofstuff that's not going to sell.
Dale (32:05):
Yeah, 100%.
Marc (32:07):
So, as you can tell, even in this podcast, I'm not doing
it disingenuously, but I knowyou sell hammocks.
Focus on that.
I know what's important to youand I think that's part of that
conversation.
Dale (33:07):
And I think that's part of that conversation yes, me
compared to other, randomized ornot.
It was all anonymous data thatcompared me to other shops and
online outfits that were like me, and it blew my mind the
different ratios and things thathe was telling me about.
So how do you look at yourfinancial accounting for a
company like yours?
Marc (33:22):
Well, I think for years we were in a massive growth mode.
So I mentioned, we started in800 square feet in 1995.
And I think at one point we, asI said, closed our basement but
at one point we had 30,000square feet of retail space a
year or so ago.
And so that growth funded a lotof ignorance and we focused
(33:47):
entirely on top line sales andnot gross profit margin and not
necessarily terms and notnecessarily inventory health.
And I think it's really easy asan entrepreneur to focus on
sales, and we're sales people.
We want to see sales.
Someone just bought this, that'sgreat, but in the end, what did
(34:07):
it cost to sell it and whatdoes your balance sheet look
like?
That's to me, balance sheet andcashflow have become far more
important than profit and loss.
Not to say that profit and lossisn't important, but making
sure that the traditionalmetrics that are used in the
financial industry to analyze aloan are things that you look at
(34:27):
for your business.
There's a reason why the banksare looking at those and asking
for those figures and it'sbecause those are the quickest
way to assess the health of yourbusiness.
And so if you eschew thosekinds of metrics because they
get in the way, or they're notcomfortable or they're not fun.
You're kind of saying you don'twant to focus on the things
(34:49):
that really do matter in termsof the financial health of the
business.
(35:15):
One of the messages that wetalked about last November at
GOA and I talked about with alot of our brands and you know
how things had changed a littlefor us is't talk about that yet.
But you know, og has alwaysbeen supporting nonprofits and
trying to figure out how to getfunds into nonprofits that we
support and give opportunitiesand be part of events and and
create that community and bepart of the community.
Um, but if we aren'toperationally successful, then
(35:39):
all of that's for not because wewon't be here in a year.
So I think that that's thepiece is to really remember that
it's not one or the other.
It's got to be both.
You know, running a businessthat's just about profit is
boring.
It's not.
You know it's not engaging.
It may be for some.
I mean, there are, there areplenty of people who who start a
(36:01):
business or buy a business sothat they can turn it into
something a little bit more andsell it, and that's the end goal
.
That's not my end goal it neverhas been is a means to a
lifestyle.
The business itself is a meansto connection and a way to
(36:24):
support other people gettingthere and bringing people into
the industry.
We've got folks all over ourpartner industry brands that
started at OGE decades ago.
Our contact at gregory mountainis a former um administration
(36:47):
and salesperson here at oge, um,the I think he's the ceo or our
vice president or something ofexpert voice used to work at oge
and you he.
These are careers that beganhere and we introduce people to
the industry.
And that's also important for mebecause it is something that I
(37:08):
love, and I do want people to bepart of it and see the magic in
it.
Dale (37:12):
Yeah, I love that.
What kind of and kind of toclose up and staying on that on
the financial topic, and I likethat idea of like, hey, margin
mission, both important, but youcan't have a mission without a
margin, without any margin.
Well, you can, but then you'rea nonprofit.
(37:33):
Yeah, yeah, and even nonprofitshave to keep money coming in and
and focus on finances and where.
What kind of regular discipline, um, did you maybe not have at
the beginning, that you that youdeveloped, that helped you a
lot in terms of, uh, financialaccountability, um.
Marc (38:00):
I'm not known for my discipline Uh, in fact, I've.
I've often thought that I'vebuilt my life around not having
to need any.
That just isn't true, and so Ithink, as our business scaled,
that became more on cashflowforecasts and making sure we're
checking in on things every weekand modifying and adjusting
what's going on to what we'reseeing, so weekly accounting
(38:33):
check-ins where the truth ishitting you every week.
Yep, and we've gone to having aweekly open to buy meeting with
our buying director, our seniordirector of sales strategy and
my business partner to just makesure that we're buying the
right things and we're buying ata level that the business can
support.
And that means adjusting nextweek's open to buy based on last
(38:56):
week's sales and trying toavoid making an excuse for why
you had a bad weekend or why youhad a bad month or why you had
a bad week and accepting well,there isn't an excuse, it's just
that's what happened and itdoesn't matter why.
We just need to react to it.
Dale (39:12):
Yeah Cool.
Marc (39:14):
Because it's very easy to get caught up in believing in
what you want to believe and notpaying attention to the signs
around you that suggest thatyour belief may be flawed, and I
think that's really hard to do.
And that's where having ameeting with four people instead
of sitting in a desk alonedoing it, is helpful, because
(39:34):
you get those other inputs andyou get an idea of where your
logic makes sense and where itdoesn't, and you have to be open
to that.
There's no sense in asking forfeedback if you're just going to
tell people that's not.
There's a reason why what youjust said doesn't make sense.
There may be you know there maybe a reason why it doesn't make
(39:55):
sense, but if you say that youstop getting feedback and you
know the expression that thereare, if you've ever gone to a
brainstorming discussion or youtalk to your kids about
questions in school there's nosuch thing as a dumb question or
a dumb idea.
There are some pretty dumbquestions and some pretty dumb
ideas, but the idea in thatstatement is don't be afraid to
ask, Don't be afraid to saysomething, because there's
(40:18):
probably some value in it andthere's probably somebody else
who's thinking the same thing.
Yeah, how many times have youbeen in a place where someone's
asked a question or made acomment and you've said oh, I
was thinking the same thing, butI wasn't really comfortable
saying it.
Well, there's probably 10 otherpeople in the room.
Dale (40:34):
And sometimes the dumb question opens up and gives
permission and leads to the goodquestion you know, building on
that, you're.
You're talking about justtransparency and and candor and
being immersed in the reality ofwhere you are instead of, you
(40:56):
know, dealing with it on yourown, but bringing the partners
in and that's cool.
Marc (41:02):
Yeah, and at the same time , I've recently read that one of
the biggest complaints aboutthe modern workplace is the
amount of collaboration that'srequired, and so I think, with
everything, it's all aboutmoderation and threading the
needle between too much and toolittle, but if you can't make a
decision without getting a signoff from six people, you stop
(41:22):
wanting to make decisions.
So there's there's somewhere inthe middle, and so I do.
I do think getting feedback andinput is important, but only if
you're going to be able to takeit, and only if it's done when
needed and not when not needed.
Dale (41:36):
Man if we had 20 more minutes to discuss that.
Yeah, I agree 100%.
I very much disagreed with thissentiment when I heard it.
But one of my good friends, hesold six businesses and he's
been very successful.
He's had hundreds of employeesin certain businesses and he's
very successful in terms ofexecuting, getting stuff done
(42:03):
and making stuff happen.
It may not always be in the bestyou know ways, but and his he
said a dictatorship beats ademocracy every day and for me,
I'm like, well, short term, andnow this or that or the other,
but this, his sentiment is makethe decision.
You know, and he's verydecisive and I think that you
(42:24):
know speed, I've heard speed isthe currency of business, you
know, and a lot of timesindecision is slow, where, when
you have to counsel, when youhave to engage too much with
other people, I think that killsa lot of us.
You know me included indifferent projects I'm in I have
to.
Really, I love collaboration.
Naturally, I love it.
I love collaborating andgetting other people's
(42:45):
perspectives, but I think I errtoo much on some of that when I
was running my own stuff.
I just make the decision andmove on.
Marc (42:55):
I mean, in a sense, the government that most people want
is a benevolent dictatorship.
The problem is there isn't alot of benevolency in dictators,
and so then you want, you wantto say, and if your say isn't
heard, then it feels like youreally have a malevolent
dictator.
Oh, you asked me my opinion,but you're not doing it.
That's worse than not asking anopinion.
Dale (43:17):
Yeah, that's interesting.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Well, I'm going to keep onthinking about that element.
Too much or too muchcollaboration, a common
complaint?
Now, I can see that for sure.
Mark, it's really great to havetime with you.
Marc (43:32):
Yeah, great, and I look forward to seeing you in Reno
shortly.
Dale (43:35):
Yes, yeah, we'll see you in a few weeks.
Marc (43:38):
Yes, okay, thanks for taking the time, see you.
Yeah, have a great afternoon.
Okay, thank you.
Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the
podcast.
Today I've got Mark Shermanfrom Outdoor Gear Exchange and
GearXcom.
Hello Mark, hello Dale, how areyou?
It's good to see you.
Yes, I'm really excited toshare you with everyone and
share your story today.
First question if you could,I'd love to understand, kind of
(00:24):
how you got here to where youare into retail.
So if there are any like stintsor things that you did before
becoming a retailer that mighthave been formative.
Yeah, absolutely, if you couldgive us maybe a 90 second
overview.
Marc (00:39):
Oh, 90 seconds.
That's going to be tough.
But I grew up in the metro NewYork area in New Jersey and was
doing a lot of outdoor thingswith my family.
We camped a lot and I think atthe time a lot of that was
because we it was an affordablefamily vacation at the time.
Skiing was also affordable.
My parents were avid skiers, sowe did a lot of that, spent a
(01:00):
lot of time canoeing in theDelaware river and just enjoying
time outside.
And as I got out of college andmoved into Manhattan for the job
that I thought I was supposedto be having, with a suit and a
tie on, I realized I wasspending more and more time
outside the city and going toseek these adventures in places
like Vermont, which is where Idecided to end up settling
(01:21):
because that's where I wasenjoying myself more than where
I was living.
And over time I moved up hereand, I think, fell in love with
the idea of sharing my love ofthe outdoors with people, and as
friends came to visit, we wouldgo on hikes and camping trips
and I would share gear with themand one day, sitting with a
(01:41):
friend a few friends actually inthe Adirondacks camping,
talking about the fact that weall had a lot more gear than we
needed and we had friends whodidn't have any.
And wouldn't there be a way toconnect those?
And one of the people on thetrip had spent his college years
in San Francisco and there's astore there at one time called
the Wilderness Exchange.
(02:01):
Jerry Jordan ran that store andhe's often referred to as the
godfather of the consignment andcloseout gear shop and I'm
still in touch with himoccasionally.
But he more or less helped uswrite our business plan to get
started.
And then we sat on it for awhile and finally decided let's
give this a shot.
We want to build a gear shopthat we'd like to shop in and
(02:25):
focus on the consumer and try tosort of harness that energy to
make something fun for people tobe in and share our love.
And that worked.
We started out in 800 squarefeet on Main Street in
Burlington in 1995.
And at the time very few brandswould actually sell to us
because another retailer in townhad a lot of the dealerships
(02:47):
locked up and so we foundourselves selling second tier
and third tier and often fourthtier product.
But we loved what we chose tosell and we were able to sell it
because we were able to engagewith our customers and talk
about it, and I just rememberbeing really shocked at the
notion that anyone would bewilling to spend what it cost to
(03:07):
buy a Dana Design Pack at thetime, which was $300 and $400
and more and you know this was30 years ago, so those are real
dollars and it didn't take longto understand that.
You know you're helping peopleto invest in a future and invest
in enjoying themselves morewhen they were outside, and it
(03:28):
became more of an opportunity tohelp someone outfit themselves
for a lifestyle that I valuedand that they obviously valued
enough to come in and shop.
And it became a lot easier andit helped us find new product
and as our name got out there inthe industry, locally and
throughout the various tradeshows and whatnot, I think we
(03:49):
were finding ourselves having aneasier time getting product and
getting brands.
And we were talking you and Iearlier and I didn't get to say
this, but I think part of thereason that these podcasts or
trade shows are really valuableis to be part of the
conversation, and to be part ofa conversation that you're not
sure where it's going, but ifyou can get 20 percent or 30
(04:12):
percent of something out of itor make a contact or a
connection or have like a littlelight bulb moment where you
hear something that someone elseis doing and think oh yeah.
I could modify that to work forwhat we're doing.
That's the value in being partof that conversation, and so we
opened in 1995.
And we opened on May 1.
So we're just starting our 30thyear now and we went to the
(04:37):
first outdoor retailer in Junebecause we felt we needed to be
as part of the industry and wewanted to see what was going on.
And at the time, because wefelt we needed to be as part of
the industry and we wanted tosee what was going on, and at
the time hydration was beginningto be a thing, camelback was
relatively new and at the timeeveryone was drinking out of an
algae bottle and I rememberbeing very skeptical of this new
(04:58):
technology because I likedstopping, sitting down on a rock
, opening up my bottle anddrinking.
And very quickly it was apparentthat you know what I was doing
wasn't necessarily what theindustry was doing and that you
know our job was to sell topeople what the technology was
that was going to work betterand what people wanted.
So it was a combination of thisis how I've always done it and
(05:19):
this is where things are going.
But I find it so interestingthat that first show that I went
to.
We hired my now businesspartner to run the shop while we
were out of town because wedidn't want to close immediately
, but we knew we needed to go.
It was in Reno and I'm excitedthat you know to go back to
another trade show that's inReno.
(05:39):
So the first and next tradeshow that I ever went to were in
the same place.
Dale (05:45):
Yeah, so how I love that.
So you started very much fromthis.
You're passionate about outdoorgear, you're passionate about
the outdoors.
You move from the city toVermont and there's this idea of
a consignment store.
How do we share gear?
Used gear, consignment gear Doyou still have an element of
(06:05):
that in your businessConsignment or used?
Marc (06:08):
Yeah, not just an element, it's a critical element.
It has been for 30 years andcontinues to be 10% to 11% of
our walk-in business every month.
And in fact we recently, inresponse to some market
pressures and foot trafficreductions that we're seeing in
Burlington, closed the basementof our store and consolidated
(06:32):
everything onto the first floor.
And that included movingconsignment onto the first floor
.
And regardless of what wepublicized about it, the one
thing we got, the one comment wekept seeing, was why are you
closing consignment?
And we love consignment and weneeded to be really clear.
We weren't closing it.
(06:55):
In fact we're now about toexpand it again because of the
interest.
People really liked the deal.
We are very careful about whatwe accept.
So people come in and know thatthey're not going to be walking
through a thrift shop rack ofcrappy pants and jackets.
They're looking at brandedclothing that our customer is
looking to sell easily and notnecessarily getting top dollar
for it, but getting what wethink is reasonable.
(07:15):
And for years and years andwe're still Outdoor Gear
Exchange itself is still notopen as a dealer for Patagonia,
but for years Patagonia had beenour number one brand and it was
all consigned products.
Dale (07:29):
Yeah, I love that.
If I were to open up a shoptomorrow, I would have a strong
consignment element.
Consignment speaks to my soulfrom reusing, not having
something go to waste.
There's so much gear inpeople's closets that should be
on trails.
Well, the consignment modeldoes so much more than that.
Marc (07:51):
The consignment model covers everything that we all
value.
One you have a way to take thegear that you once used and put
it in someone else's handsinstead of putting it in the
landfill.
You can help somebody else whomight be just getting started in
their outdoor pursuits buysomething more affordably
because, let's face it, the gearthat we use is expensive.
(08:14):
You know it is.
You are getting outside and thewilderness is mostly free, but
the gear isn't, and that's gonein the wrong direction in some
ways, as things have gotten morecomplicated.
So we take the gear that wehave and we pass it on to
somebody else Gives us anopportunity to turn what we have
into some money so that we canbuy new gear.
(08:35):
And we keep the gear out of thelandfill and we get that cycle
going and it's repetitive.
We'll sell the same item fivetimes.
Because one person buys it new,they sell it used from.
Someone buys it used, they useit for a while, they realize
they actually do really lovebackpacking and now they want to
go buy a brand new backpack.
Well, they sell that usedbackpack because it typically
(08:57):
people don't use their gearenough for it to be unsellable
even if it starts out used yeah,that's awesome, it's, it's
a it.
That's awesome.
It's reuse and recycle and, Iguess, in that sense, reduce
because you're buying less stuff.
Yeah, it really speaks to allof what we love.
And when I work on the salesfloor at any given time, I
(09:20):
continue to be amazed at theamount of consignment product
that comes in.
To be amazed at the amount ofconsignment product that comes
in to be bought.
And, to be clear, when I saywe're at 10% to 11% of our sales
, that's at 10% to 11% of oursales in dollars and when you
consider the lower price forthose items, that's the
equivalent probably of more like20% in units.
Dale (09:41):
Yeah, that's interesting, I love it.
20% units Hmm, yeah, that'sinteresting, I love it.
Um, what uh has that?
Has that influenced a lot ofyour, your brand, this, this
mission of getting gear intopeople's hands and it happens to
happen through consignment wasthe main vehicle.
Has that spilled into your restof your?
Marc (10:05):
brand.
Yeah, I wouldn't say mainvehicle.
I mean, when we started we wereselling all used, all
consignment, and then someaccessories that we're buying
through at, you know, peregrineOutfitters at the time, now
owned by Liberty Mountain Sports.
And as we realized that ourcustomers were going to stores
(10:25):
like EMS to buy a product thatwe couldn't sell them used, we
started reaching out anddeciding well, why would we send
someone away after they stoppedby us first to buy something
used?
Let's make sure we have thatitem for them one way or the
other.
And that's the challenge in aconsignment or a used business
is you don't have as muchcontrol over what you have to
offer your customer.
(10:45):
So we created this sort ofhybrid model and it was really.
It was well-received.
We always sold full priceproduct next to discounted
product and it's always worked,because some people want the
newest and the greatest, Somepeople want the least expensive,
some people want somethingright in the middle and some
people just love a deal and loveto find something on a rack
(11:07):
that they didn't think they weregoing to find and wow, I'm
going to pick this up.
I've been looking for this.
I actually just picked up apack on consignment that I saw
and said, wow, I haven't seenthis anywhere.
It's three years old, it's notbeing made anymore.
I'm going to pick this pack upnow.
I'm going to pick this pack upnow and it's usually a pretty
quick discussion because they'reall one-offs.
You know it's not going to bethere in a week.
(11:28):
And we found that mostconsignment items either sell
within 30 days of getting on therack or they'll sit around for
a year and then they get donated.
But the good stuff goes quicklyand the other stuff just sits
there.
Dale (11:41):
Hmm, okay, awesome.
So you've been doing this since19.
So you're beginning your 30thyear May 1st.
You started 95.
And well, actually one point.
And then I've got a question.
But I love that you said thatyou started and then you felt
(12:03):
like you needed to be involvedin the industry.
So you go to Reno, to the tradeshow, yeah, and I, yeah, I
don't know if, I don't know whowouldn't benefit from that kind
of just industry involvement.
That was a big part of a lot ofthe major shifts that I made as
(12:27):
a retailer came from going totrade shows and meeting people
and as a bike retailer, I wentto, I went to interbike and I
went to Eurobike and I went toTaipei show and I can't really,
uh, so many of the major changeswe made.
The value of leaving thebusiness, being with industry
peers and just being out thereand going back to the business
was super valuable, absolutely.
(12:49):
Had you made that a practicefor your whole, for the life of
outdoor gear exchange, ofstaying connected to the
industry.
Marc (12:57):
Yeah, and I think that's that.
We love our customers.
We love the gear that we selland the activities we engage in,
but we also.
The outdoor industry is magical.
It is filled with passionatesouls.
Obviously, trade shows are alot of salespeople, and
salespeople are gregarious andfun to hang out with, but making
(13:19):
relationships is what all ofthis is about, whether it's with
our customers, with our staffor with our brands.
Those relationships are whatmake what we do more than just a
job, and so going to thosetrade shows twice a year was a
piece of what we did.
I think up until the pandemic, Ididn't miss a single OR summer
(13:40):
show, and once we startedselling snow gear, I didn't miss
a single OR snow show.
And once we started sellingsnow snow gear, we are.
I didn't miss a single or snowshow, um, and so that cycle even
though it wasn't always at themost convenient time it wasn't
always super cheap to go Um, itwas really important because if
you're not getting a pulse ofthe industry, it's kind of hard
to know what what's going on Um,and so I found that really
(14:03):
valuable and and that's shifteda little to the grassroots
outdoor show, but it's still.
It's a group of close friends,and I have friends who have left
the industry.
I was just on the phone with asales manager from a company
that we had been working withand before that he was with
another company and it'ssomebody we met years and years
and years ago when he was oursalesperson at Liberty Mountain
(14:25):
Sports, and he's not in theindustry anymore and we still
stay in touch.
We're still close friends and Ithink those friendships are not
infrequent in this industry andI've tried to explain this to
my wife and that the trade showpeople that we see, they know
what's going on in my life, eventhough I see them six times or
(14:47):
every once every six months, andyou know when you see them,
they they ask how's your sondoing what?
Why are you going on a trip?
How did that turn out?
And and yes, again, we'retalking about salespeople and
this is what we all do is keeptrack of what the people we talk
to are doing, so that we canconnect.
But that feels like a separatecommunity and I think one of the
(15:09):
things that's cool about it isit's a separate community,
really separate, like I seepeople.
I see you once every six months, yet I know you know what your
last family adventure was onyour bikes and you know what
you're doing and when we connectit's not without some awareness
of who we are and that's reallyhelpful and it's warm and
(15:30):
welcoming.
And I'll say, you know I'vebeen to trade shows and
obviously you know we've talked.
Last November went to a tradeshow Things were really
struggling with with my businessand and some of the
relationships we had and it wasso welcoming and and warmly
welcoming to be at that show andbe amongst friends who
understood and were in aposition and interest of helping
(15:51):
make sure that we continuethose relationships and and
that's so invaluable and hasreally, you know, I've had
people look at that and say, wow, you guys, you have an amazing
thing going on the industry andwhatnot.
You have an amazing thing goingon the industry and whatnot.
And we have a friend who usedto be the commissioner of Forest
(16:19):
Parks and Recreation in Vermontand he came out make a
difference and make sure thatthings continued positively in
the outdoors and with our retailpositions and came back and we
started the Vermont OutdoorRecreation Economic
Collaborative, which was one ofthe many state-based outdoor
economic groups that was sort ofbuilt on understanding the
(16:43):
economic vitality in the outdoorindustry and you know, in Utah
you had Tom Adams doing that fora while and there was I forget
who the Colorado guy was.
But you know the states thathave a big investment in the
outdoors saw that value and sodid the commissioner of forest
parks and recreation and thatwas a.
You know it was a pleasure tobe part of forming that
(17:04):
organization and being involvedin that and seeing it to the
next step and moving on, and nowI'm in a different, similar but
non-governmental basedorganization for it.
Dale (17:13):
Yeah, awesome.
So the connection and thecamaraderie that comes from it.
And then, yeah, I always foundthat I had so many good ideas
coming back from a trade showfor my business that I didn't
have sitting, you know, sittingat HQ Right Things.
I wasn't thinking of meetingpeople like you that you know
(17:36):
might be doing somethingdifferent or better that I
hadn't considered so awesome.
Marc (17:42):
I love that, well, I think you know, we've been doing
business with Grand Trunks since, I think, the first year that
your company was in business.
Okay, Long before you bought it.
And that's because of therelationships we have with our
sales reps.
And you know sales reps arereally important in this
industry and we've seen brandspresence in our store go up and
down as sales reps change andyou know the relationship
(18:05):
building that goes with oneperson versus another and how
they see the business and whattheir view of partnership is,
and it's incredibly valuable andit makes a really big
difference.
But but those things happen ina trade show Cause, like you
said, you get out of HQ, you'renot, the phone's not ringing,
you're not getting texts oremails or or staff coming in and
(18:27):
asking questions about someurgent matter that's urgent in
their mind, whether it is or itisn't, and you need to step in
and do that.
And so you get to be aroundother people who are focused on
the industry and become thoughtpartners.
And I've got an ADD mind and Ifind that if I can sit, I get
the most ideas when I'm sittingin a board meeting, not around
(18:50):
necessarily what the boardmeeting is being talked about,
but my mind, when it getsfocused on something like that,
starts drilling down ideas.
And I think the same thinghappens to trade shows.
You're in there you're focusedon the trade show and lots of
ideas start pouring in and youjust have to write them down and
go back and sort through themand even if only 10% of them are
useful, that 10% might not havecome up without that
(19:13):
environment to be in 100%.
Dale (19:16):
I love that.
So one question, and this hasto do, I guess, me as a brand
kind of putting my brand hat onand then thinking about it to
better understand yourperspective as a retailer.
But in talking internally atGrand Trunk, sometimes I ask the
(19:39):
question if these retailerswere owned by our favorite uncle
and we're the favorite nephew,or if I'm your high school
friend and you're the bestfriend and you want everything
good in the world for me and I'mthe brand, how do you as a
retailer partner with me?
So kind of?
(20:08):
I'd love to explore both sidesa little bit how do you deeply
connect with and work with abrand and how would a brand
deeply with and work with abrand?
And how would a brand deeplyconnect and work with with you?
Cause you have a few sorry toElke before you've been pretty
creative in working with brandsand having ways.
(20:30):
A lot of people will say, hey,let me know if there's anything
we can do to deep more.
It's almost like it's a.
It's the right thing to say.
Let me know if there's anythingthat we can do to support you.
Where you have actually come upwith legitimate programs.
Oh well, great, we have thisstore for you can sponsor the
storefront.
You have these programs inplace, but I'd love to just
explore that, this question,with you.
Marc (20:52):
Yeah, no, that's a great point.
I mean, first of all, um, Ithink the one thing that we've
taken as our focus from thebeginning is you can do business
with people who are easy to dobusiness with.
You can do business with peoplewho are hard to do business
with, and if you have to choose,you're always going to choose
the one that's easy to dobusiness with.
Obviously, dollars matter, butsame playing ground.
(21:16):
We try to be easy to dobusiness with, we try to place
our orders on time, we try tofollow through, we try to look
at what's new and try to sellsome of that.
And really larger, largerplayers in the field who have a
profit center on chargebacks,you know, did the pallet come in
with the right kind ofstrapping?
Was it two days late?
(21:43):
Was it 10%?
Too few items?
And you know we're going tocharge you a percentage on that,
and their orders volume is bigenough to justify that, and you
as a brand are like well, weneed this order, we're going to
suffer through these charges.
Yet at the same time, we'vebeen told by industry partners
(22:06):
that we don't ask for enough ofthat.
But that's a whole differentdiscussion and I've certainly
asked for a lot from people thisyear and found the support to
be incredible.
And when I look at what you'retalking about, you know, with
co-op programs, a lot of brandslike Grand Trunk have a co-op
program or at least a co-opconcept.
We'd like to support you toadvertise Grand Trunk in your
(22:29):
store, but we need to tell youwhat we're going to do.
And I found that I was going totrade shows and I wasn't doing
any buying anymore.
We had a buying team and so Iwould sit in on some of those
meetings but my mind wouldwander and people would joke
yeah, if Duck's going to sit inthe meeting, there's going to be
a lot of jokes and distractions.
That's my ADD mind operating,but I think that my nickname is
(22:55):
Duck.
I realize that might not havebeen clear, but I started sort
of thinking okay, how this isvaluable time.
I've got a family, I've got ahome I like to care for.
I've got friends at home.
I'm busy.
How do I make this trip to thetrade show meaningful beyond
just sitting through meetingsthat are on the calendar?
And I started thinking about mywork with the marketing that we
(23:17):
do.
And, okay, how do we work withour brands to give them value
with the co-op dollars that wecan spend.
And we started.
We came up with, essentially, aco-op program, very formalized
and printed out in Google formin a slideshow presentation that
had real dollars on it, so thatwe can say, yeah, we can do
(23:40):
this, this is what it costs,this is what you get, and we'd
love to get you involved.
And we very quickly found that,thanks to an incredibly
creative woman that worked forus doing our windows, that the
windows that we have on ChurchStreet which, for those who
don't know Burlington, windowsthat we have on church street
which, for those who don't knowburlington but might know
boulder better, it's similar topearl street and boulder um, we
(24:02):
have windows that we needed toset up and have as displays, and
so we basically started sellingthose windows and the
creativity of liza, who wasdoing them, was so good and now
lindsey's doing them and she'sstepped in really well that
those windows became acornerstone to our marketing
(24:23):
program.
And I would come to a tradeshow and people would want to do
one and I'd be telling themwell, you can't, we're pretty
much they're all taken for thenext 15 months and it became
such a demand and you know it'sbrand building.
It's not just about Outdoor GearExchange.
If you're walking down ChurchStreet and you see a window with
(24:43):
Grand Trunk product in it, withmannequins hanging around and a
nice tailgate scene or ahammocking scene, you're seeing
the brand.
You're not just seeing thebrand in Outdoor Gear Exchange's
window and you may or may notstop in at OGE, but when you
walk by that brand is imprintedand the next time you see an ad
(25:05):
in Outside Magazine or aFacebook posting from Grand
Trunk, that imprint is magnifiedand amplified and that's
incredibly valuable and it'salso made those trade shows
really fun and enjoyable becauseI get to talk to lots of
different people.
It's not just about buyingthings.
It's about talking about ourbusinesses and how we can
collaborate and yes, there'smoney involved, but it's
(25:26):
business and that's how it works.
But it's still been rewarding tosee how that's helped us
develop our program and we'rerevising that this year based on
a lot of what's going on, butespecially the challenges in
having monobranded windows andwhere that puts us in terms of
logistics.
And so we're not going to, we'renot doing away with our windows
(25:48):
, but we're changing how we'redoing it and you know that gets
to what you and I talked about alittle earlier, which is, you
know, tomorrow may not look liketoday, and it's our job to keep
a focus.
One of our partners I think theowner of Darn Tough Vermont has
said what got us here will nottake us to the next level, but
(26:11):
we can't forget what's got ushere, and so it really is a
blending of looking backwardsand looking forwards and knowing
that the future is not going tolook like the past, but we got
here for a reason and we need tofocus on those core things, and
that's sort of what we talkedabout earlier in terms of making
sure we're outfitting peoplefor the outdoors and being
respectful of their financialconstraints, and the need to
(26:35):
move gear around and get newpeople involved, as well as
outfit the people who've beendoing it for two decades.
Dale (26:42):
Yeah, so that.
So you've got ways for brandsto deeply part, to partner in a
big, in a meaningful way withyou guys through your co-op
program.
So you've kind of created that.
And when people say, hey, letus know how we can, you know, be
more involved, you have a sheetthat you can hand over.
Well, here's the way that youcan be.
(27:02):
If you really want to beengaged, then do that.
I think a lot of shops canlearn from that.
Marc (27:09):
Yep, summit Hut out of Arizona does the same thing and
they've got a great program andI think it's there are a few
shops that do it and it takeswork and it takes focus.
And if you've got a shop that'sonly got one person going to
the trade show, it's kind ofhard to get that done.
(27:29):
And so we're in a uniqueposition where we have the staff
to do it and our business hasdefinitely gotten a little bit
smaller in terms of headcount,but we're still going to the
trade show with the full teamand I think that's really
important because it is you know, that those are investments in
the future and investment inthose relationships.
But, to your point, how manytimes does someone say, well,
(27:51):
what can I do for you?
And you don't have an answer?
When we go back to our customerbase, when we started, we began
setting up these gift lists forChristmas and they would be
organized on one side by priceand another side by activity and
we'd hand them out to ourcustomers.
We put them in shopping baskets, they would be in a display as
(28:11):
you walked in and I would ask mystaff to just say you know what
are your go-tos and you know ifsomeone comes in and says I'm,
I'm going to a graduation.
I have no idea what to get thisperson.
What would you suggest?
And you know I'll say that forgraduation my number one
suggestion is a hammock, and andat Christmas it's often a
(28:32):
headlamp.
But to have something, so thatwhen a friend said friend said
when I started the business, Isaid just have an opinion.
If someone's coming into yourstore to ask you a question and
to shop, they want to know whatyou think.
And so if someone says to youdo you have any ideas on what I
could get this person who likesto be outside for this event
coming up?
(28:53):
Well, you need to have ananswer ready and the answer can
start with a question Well, whatare they into?
But if you're in a timesensitive moment, it's great to
have a couple go-tos and I don'tpick, they're not picked up in
air.
I can honestly say that I don'tgo anywhere without a hammock in
my bag, because I just I likesetting up between two trees and
(29:16):
hanging out, even if I justhave a half an hour to do it,
and and it doesn't take up a lotof space.
But so for me, making thatrecommendation is really easy
because it's what I believe inprogram.
Dale (29:38):
It's so smart.
When I saw you present it fouryears ago at GOA I'm like, well,
he's got it together.
That is a pretty you know.
Yeah, I was really impressed bythat For a if you had, if I'm
your, if I am a brand owner andin this case I am at Grand Trunk
and you were, and we were bestfriends growing up and you
wanted everything.
Um, you wanted to do everythingpossible for my success as a
(30:02):
store owner and and I had that,as there were certain reps that
I really liked I'm arelationship guy and people that
I like I want to help.
So, um, if, if somebody, if arep comes in that I really care
about and they bring a newproduct in, I'm going to go out
on a limb to try to make themsuccessful.
(30:22):
But what kinds of things?
As a shop, if you need to liketurn up the effort or turn up
the heat for a brand, what kindsof things do you do?
Marc (30:34):
I mean, I think we can lean into the marketing program
and add things to it.
I think we can talk aboutdisplays in the store which are
incredibly valuable and makesure that our offering is fresh.
So you know, it's a give and atake.
So we might sort of suggest hey, we've got a product, I think
you've got some new items comingout.
(30:54):
Can we swap this out so thatwhat we have on the shelf is
what you're interested in ourcustomers seeing is what you're
interested in our customersseeing?
We're also really honest.
One of the things we did when westarted was, instead of selling
everything that the brandwanted us to sell, and becoming
essentially a concept shop forthat brand, we picked and we
(31:16):
chose from each differentoffering to make sure that we
were looking at what thecustomer needed.
But being honest with ourbrands and giving feedback is
really important.
We had a now former footwearbuyer who was brought out to
multiple of our footwear brandsfor focus groups to look at new
(31:37):
lines and sort of give feedbackon colors and design and
features, because we are able totalk about that and we're
willing to and that's apartnership.
So, yeah, I want to support youas my best friend from high
school, but I don't want to giveyou a participation trophy by
having a spot in the shop.
I want to help you help mewhile helping you get your
(31:58):
product out there, but itdoesn't do any of us any good
for me to fill a rack full ofstuff that's not going to sell.
Dale (32:05):
Yeah, 100%.
Marc (32:07):
So, as you can tell, even in this podcast, I'm not doing
it disingenuously, but I knowyou sell hammocks.
Focus on that.
I know what's important to youand I think that's part of that
conversation.
Dale (33:07):
And I think that's part of that conversation yes, me
compared to other, randomized ornot.
It was all anonymous data thatcompared me to other shops and
online outfits that were like me, and it blew my mind the
different ratios and things thathe was telling me about.
So how do you look at yourfinancial accounting for a
company like yours?
Marc (33:22):
Well, I think for years we were in a massive growth mode.
So I mentioned, we started in800 square feet in 1995.
And I think at one point we, asI said, closed our basement but
at one point we had 30,000square feet of retail space a
year or so ago.
And so that growth funded a lotof ignorance and we focused
(33:47):
entirely on top line sales andnot gross profit margin and not
necessarily terms and notnecessarily inventory health.
And I think it's really easy asan entrepreneur to focus on
sales, and we're sales people.
We want to see sales.
Someone just bought this, that'sgreat, but in the end, what did
(34:07):
it cost to sell it and whatdoes your balance sheet look
like?
That's to me, balance sheet andcashflow have become far more
important than profit and loss.
Not to say that profit and lossisn't important, but making
sure that the traditionalmetrics that are used in the
financial industry to analyze aloan are things that you look at
(34:27):
for your business.
There's a reason why the banksare looking at those and asking
for those figures and it'sbecause those are the quickest
way to assess the health of yourbusiness.
And so if you eschew thosekinds of metrics because they
get in the way, or they're notcomfortable or they're not fun.
You're kind of saying you don'twant to focus on the things
(34:49):
that really do matter in termsof the financial health of the
business.
(35:15):
One of the messages that wetalked about last November at
GOA and I talked about with alot of our brands and you know
how things had changed a littlefor us is't talk about that yet.
But you know, og has alwaysbeen supporting nonprofits and
trying to figure out how to getfunds into nonprofits that we
support and give opportunitiesand be part of events and and
create that community and bepart of the community.
Um, but if we aren'toperationally successful, then
(35:39):
all of that's for not because wewon't be here in a year.
So I think that that's thepiece is to really remember that
it's not one or the other.
It's got to be both.
You know, running a businessthat's just about profit is
boring.
It's not.
You know it's not engaging.
It may be for some.
I mean, there are, there areplenty of people who who start a
(36:01):
business or buy a business sothat they can turn it into
something a little bit more andsell it, and that's the end goal
.
That's not my end goal it neverhas been is a means to a
lifestyle.
The business itself is a meansto connection and a way to
(36:24):
support other people gettingthere and bringing people into
the industry.
We've got folks all over ourpartner industry brands that
started at OGE decades ago.
Our contact at gregory mountainis a former um administration
(36:47):
and salesperson here at oge, um,the I think he's the ceo or our
vice president or something ofexpert voice used to work at oge
and you he.
These are careers that beganhere and we introduce people to
the industry.
And that's also important for mebecause it is something that I
(37:08):
love, and I do want people to bepart of it and see the magic in
it.
Dale (37:12):
Yeah, I love that.
What kind of and kind of toclose up and staying on that on
the financial topic, and I likethat idea of like, hey, margin
mission, both important, but youcan't have a mission without a
margin, without any margin.
Well, you can, but then you'rea nonprofit.
(37:33):
Yeah, yeah, and even nonprofitshave to keep money coming in and
and focus on finances and where.
What kind of regular discipline, um, did you maybe not have at
the beginning, that you that youdeveloped, that helped you a
lot in terms of, uh, financialaccountability, um.
Marc (38:00):
I'm not known for my discipline Uh, in fact, I've.
I've often thought that I'vebuilt my life around not having
to need any.
That just isn't true, and so Ithink, as our business scaled,
that became more on cashflowforecasts and making sure we're
checking in on things every weekand modifying and adjusting
what's going on to what we'reseeing, so weekly accounting
(38:33):
check-ins where the truth ishitting you every week.
Yep, and we've gone to having aweekly open to buy meeting with
our buying director, our seniordirector of sales strategy and
my business partner to just makesure that we're buying the
right things and we're buying ata level that the business can
support.
And that means adjusting nextweek's open to buy based on last
(38:56):
week's sales and trying toavoid making an excuse for why
you had a bad weekend or why youhad a bad month or why you had
a bad week and accepting well,there isn't an excuse, it's just
that's what happened and itdoesn't matter why.
We just need to react to it.
Dale (39:12):
Yeah Cool.
Marc (39:14):
Because it's very easy to get caught up in believing in
what you want to believe and notpaying attention to the signs
around you that suggest thatyour belief may be flawed, and I
think that's really hard to do.
And that's where having ameeting with four people instead
of sitting in a desk alonedoing it, is helpful, because
(39:34):
you get those other inputs andyou get an idea of where your
logic makes sense and where itdoesn't, and you have to be open
to that.
There's no sense in asking forfeedback if you're just going to
tell people that's not.
There's a reason why what youjust said doesn't make sense.
There may be you know there maybe a reason why it doesn't make
(39:55):
sense, but if you say that youstop getting feedback and you
know the expression that thereare, if you've ever gone to a
brainstorming discussion or youtalk to your kids about
questions in school there's nosuch thing as a dumb question or
a dumb idea.
There are some pretty dumbquestions and some pretty dumb
ideas, but the idea in thatstatement is don't be afraid to
ask, Don't be afraid to saysomething, because there's
(40:18):
probably some value in it andthere's probably somebody else
who's thinking the same thing.
Yeah, how many times have youbeen in a place where someone's
asked a question or made acomment and you've said oh, I
was thinking the same thing, butI wasn't really comfortable
saying it.
Well, there's probably 10 otherpeople in the room.
Dale (40:34):
And sometimes the dumb question opens up and gives
permission and leads to the goodquestion you know, building on
that, you're.
You're talking about justtransparency and and candor and
being immersed in the reality ofwhere you are instead of, you
(40:56):
know, dealing with it on yourown, but bringing the partners
in and that's cool.
Marc (41:02):
Yeah, and at the same time , I've recently read that one of
the biggest complaints aboutthe modern workplace is the
amount of collaboration that'srequired, and so I think, with
everything, it's all aboutmoderation and threading the
needle between too much and toolittle, but if you can't make a
decision without getting a signoff from six people, you stop
(41:22):
wanting to make decisions.
So there's there's somewhere inthe middle, and so I do.
I do think getting feedback andinput is important, but only if
you're going to be able to takeit, and only if it's done when
needed and not when not needed.
Dale (41:36):
Man if we had 20 more minutes to discuss that.
Yeah, I agree 100%.
I very much disagreed with thissentiment when I heard it.
But one of my good friends, hesold six businesses and he's
been very successful.
He's had hundreds of employeesin certain businesses and he's
very successful in terms ofexecuting, getting stuff done
(42:03):
and making stuff happen.
It may not always be in the bestyou know ways, but and his he
said a dictatorship beats ademocracy every day and for me,
I'm like, well, short term, andnow this or that or the other,
but this, his sentiment is makethe decision.
You know, and he's verydecisive and I think that you
(42:24):
know speed, I've heard speed isthe currency of business, you
know, and a lot of timesindecision is slow, where, when
you have to counsel, when youhave to engage too much with
other people, I think that killsa lot of us.
You know me included indifferent projects I'm in I have
to.
Really, I love collaboration.
Naturally, I love it.
I love collaborating andgetting other people's
(42:45):
perspectives, but I think I errtoo much on some of that when I
was running my own stuff.
I just make the decision andmove on.
Marc (42:55):
I mean, in a sense, the government that most people want
is a benevolent dictatorship.
The problem is there isn't alot of benevolency in dictators,
and so then you want, you wantto say, and if your say isn't
heard, then it feels like youreally have a malevolent
dictator.
Oh, you asked me my opinion,but you're not doing it.
That's worse than not asking anopinion.
Dale (43:17):
Yeah, that's interesting.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Well, I'm going to keep onthinking about that element.
Too much or too muchcollaboration, a common
complaint?
Now, I can see that for sure.
Mark, it's really great to havetime with you.
Marc (43:32):
Yeah, great, and I look forward to seeing you in Reno
shortly.
Dale (43:35):
Yes, yeah, we'll see you in a few weeks.
Marc (43:38):
Yes, okay, thanks for taking the time, see you.
Yeah, have a great afternoon.
Okay, thank you.
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