September 10, 2024 • 37 mins
Ever wondered what it takes to thrive in the outdoor retail industry? Join us as we chat with Steve Cross from Revy Outdoors, who shares his incredible journey from working with major brands like Patagonia to owning a chain of shops in the 80s, and finally setting up shop in Revelstoke, Canada. Tune in to uncover his practical strategies for adapting to local markets and engaging customers in a user-focused environment. Steve’s extensive experience in specialty retail offers a treasure trove of insights into the complexities and challenges unique to this sector.
Steve also dives into the importance of building capacity in employees through personalized communication and thoughtful leadership. He shares a compelling example from his time at MEC, where handling community funding requests personally—even when saying no—led to positive outcomes. We also tackle the difficulties entrepreneurs face in accepting advice, with anecdotes on the significance of finding the right mentors. This episode is packed with valuable lessons for anyone interested in outdoor retail or entrepreneurial success. Don’t miss Steve’s seasoned expertise and actionable advice that could transform your approach to retail and leadership!
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Intro (00:04):
Welcome to the Adventure Retail Podcast, your go-to
destination for all thingsoutdoor retail.
Join us as we embark on ajourney through the captivating
world of outdoor gear shops,exploring retail triumphs,
challenges and everything inbetween, from product sourcing
to customer engagementstrategies.
We're here to support andempower outdoor gear retailers
every step of the way.
Dale (00:26):
Steven, it is great to have you on the show today.
Steve (00:29):
Well, thanks, Dale, nice to be here.
Dale (00:32):
So everyone, today this is Steve Cross from Revy Outdoors
in Revelstoke, Canada, and thisis his latest venture and we're
going to go through kind of hiswhole story and kind of what
brought him here and hisexpertise in retail.
Steve (00:47):
So if you could.
Dale (00:51):
Most days it's an expertise.
Well, it was really great tohave our conversation before,
just to understand the depth andbreadth of experience working
with brands like Patagonia, youknow, being the first to bring
them into Canada, your differentconsulting roles, working at
(01:12):
MEC, having your own chain ofshops.
There's a lot of.
There's a very holistic view ofretail that I'm excited for
everybody to be able to learn,to learn from.
Steve (01:24):
Yeah, well, happy to share it's.
In my case it's definitely theschool of hard knocks,
interspersed with some realeducation at times.
So you get to a point where youyou feel like you're putting it
together pretty well.
But you know, retail is not forthe faint hearted.
It's not easy.
It's one of the morecomplicated things to do in
(01:45):
today's world, especially as aspecialty retailer, because
there's so much out there that,for want of a better phraseology
, is working against you.
Dale (01:55):
Yeah, absolutely Well, and we are here today because of an
email exchange we had.
That wasn't the most warm andfuzzy thing in the world that I
experienced on a Saturdayevening, but I was really
excited.
You shared some very validpoints on you know, as I was
representing my brand, GrandTrunk, talking about things
(02:17):
you're like, hey, I think youguys should do this differently
and what are you doing with this, and whatever, and I'm really
happy that we get to have thisconversation.
Um, and the thing that I mostadmired from your email and the
subsequent back and forth thatwe had were it wasn't just a
complaint, it was.
It was a complaint and noticingsomething, but then also saying
(02:39):
um, you know, if you're here aremultiple options, that if
you're going to run your brandlike this, then then go this way
, or if you're going to do this,go the other way.
And I just loved your way ofthinking and that was a lot of
my motivation for being able tohave you share your perspective
here on the podcast.
(03:00):
So thank you for thank you forresponding and initiating that
dialogue, but then also beingwilling to have a good
conversation.
Steve (03:07):
Well, it ended up being a pleasure.
I mean, it's, you know, asurreptitious route to get us
here today.
But you know, I mean that'swhat can happen when you stay in
a conversation and you tradeviews and ideas right in a
serious way, not a superficialway.
Dale (03:23):
Yeah, absolutely, ideas right, in a serious way, not a
superficial way.
Yeah, absolutely so.
If you could, if you could tellus how, maybe in two minutes,
the timeline, your retailtimeline, like right now you own
an outdoor shop in Revelstoke,canada, and you know what, what
brought you here?
Steve (03:42):
you here.
I started in the outdoorindustry quite young, at 20, and
I'm a lot older now, so youknow I've worked for chains,
I've worked for big boxspecialty, I've worked for very
large brands at times and thenonce in a while, I've had my own
company.
All of them successful in theirown way, but some bad endings
(04:08):
for lots of different reasons.
So I've made a lot of money,not a lot of money.
I've made decent money and I'vealso lost decent money at times
.
We made the decision to move toRevelstoke 10 years ago because
our family, we just realized weneeded to live in the mountains
instead of just traveling to themountains six, seven times a
year.
And so Revy Outdoors is comingup to its 10th anniversary, this
(04:31):
Saturday actually and it'sgreat, we love it here because
it takes me back to my roots,when I started a specialty store
, way back, and it's nice, youknow.
I have to say it's it's.
You know where your store islocated really changes or
dictates or gives you a field ofplay that you have to pay
(04:53):
attention to.
Whatever you want it to be, ithas to be what people want in
that area and it's really nicebeing in a what I would call a
user market, but it's been verybeing in what I would call a
user market, but it's been verychallenging.
Dale (05:14):
Without a doubt, opening Revy Outdoors and Rebel Soak was
the biggest challenge I've hadin my retail career, and you
also had a chain of shops.
For a while you had a chain offive shops In the 80s?
Steve (05:26):
yeah, in the 80s you had a chain of shops.
Dale (05:28):
For a while you had a chain of five shops In the 80s
yeah, In the 80s you had a chainof five shops, and then you
were at MEC for eight years, soyou worked with a large retailer
for eight years.
Steve (05:37):
Yeah, for those who might not know, mec is basically like
REI, the Canadian version.
Yeah, my store in Toronto was45,000 square feet, 200 staff,
10,000 people a week through thedoor Back then.
Yeah, it was a different.
You know it was a leadershiprole as opposed to a technical
(05:58):
role.
My job was coaching the teamleaders and senior staff with
dealing with their teams anddelivering good service in a big
box environment, big boxspecialty, which is interesting.
So I did that and I've donefreelance work in the
not-for-profit sustainabilitysector.
(06:18):
Yeah, we've always tried tohelp entrepreneurs and others.
And, yeah, we've always triedto help entrepreneurs and others
.
The not-for-profit sector hasalways interested me because the
mission is more complicated.
You know, if you have afor-profit business, at the end
of the day the goal of thebusiness is to make money,
(06:38):
whereas not-for-profit has verycomplicated missions.
So that's been fun work too.
Through my career Done a lot ofthings, reached that point
where where, yeah, just done alot of things in life.
Dale (06:48):
yeah, happy to share what might be useful yeah, on our in
our conversation earlier youwere talking about.
You know, I've got five shopsand my employees are wanting
more of a set policy manual.
But I'm not really big onpolicy, I'm.
You know.
Your philosophy is use yourbest judgment.
How did you reconcile that witheight years working at MEC,
(07:12):
where clearly there's policy?
How did how did that and whatdid you?
Maybe, what did you maybe takefrom that perspective that that
you would have taken back toyour shop before?
Would you have melded it?
Or if you could talk a littlebit about that, Sure Interesting
topic.
Steve (07:32):
Ultimately, it's about building capacity in your
culture Capacity for grayness,for lack of clarity.
So back in the 80s, when I hadthose five stores, my store
managers were clamoring forpolicies and I didn't have any.
(07:53):
And I brought them all into abig meeting and there was
binders on the table and, longstory short, I said, ok, here's
your policy manual.
And they opened it and therewas a single uh the.
The first page said at alltimes, use your best judgment.
And all the other pages wereblank.
And then we spent a whole therest of that day talking about
(08:13):
what that meant, um, and how todo it.
So when you do that as a leaderor you build capacity in your
culture, you have to be willingto suffer the consequences of
learning right Like.
One of my best stories from theMBA program I did at Queens back
in the late 90s was the storyof Henry Ford Jr, and this is a
(08:38):
true story.
He had an engineer who made aserious mistake, cost Ford a lot
of money.
The engineer got called into ameeting with Henry Ford Jr, who
he'd never met, and he goes intothe meeting and, as the story
goes, henry Ford Jr said to himdo you know why you're here?
And the young engineer says yes, I do, you're OK.
(09:01):
Why are you here?
Well, you're going to fire mebecause I made a huge mistake
that cost the company millionsof dollars.
And Henry Ford Jr looked at himand said fire you.
Why would I fire you?
I just invested millions inyour education and I love that
story.
What what you're here for is totell me why it happened and why
(09:21):
it's never going to happenagain is to tell me why it
happened and why it's nevergoing to happen again.
So you do the same thing whenyou build capacity.
In the 80s, one of my storemanagers made a judgment call on
a refund situation.
Someone had bought a.
As it happens, it was aPatagonia fleece or shell, I
can't remember.
(09:42):
It left it on the white leatherseats of their convertible in a
rainstorm and it bled dye reddye into the white leather seats
, and so I didn't know aboutthis, and one day I get a
receipt from this manager in theoffice for $1,100.
We're talking 1988 for havingthis leather problem dealt with,
(10:04):
and so we ended up in a longconversation of well, you made
the right call, but you know,maybe we, maybe there was more
to it and stuff.
So you have to be willing tosuffer the consequences.
But the but the main thing I'mtrying to address is building
capacity.
Is is time consuming and it'shard on leaders who, you know,
want to have clarity.
So you asked me how does thattranslate to a culture like MEC,
(10:28):
where there would be setpolicies and so forth?
Yep, so in that situation, youknow, mec had a lot more
latitude in its policies inthose days than people might
think, but but they still hadpretty firm policies.
So in that sense, the challengefor the leader or manager or
owner is to have staff deliverthose policies in a way which
(10:52):
feels like they don't havepolicies.
So the worst thing you can doin a business is say our policy
is we don't, we're not going todo what you're asking us to do
to the customer.
Now you know why would you dothat?
I mean, it's easy to do.
You shut down a complaint oryou shut down an annoying
(11:14):
customer.
You shut down a good customerwho just isn't within the policy
framework.
So the challenge for leadersand managers is to end staff.
The biggest challenge is forstaff who need to learn and
adapt and grow so that they canhandle a conversation and have
that person walking away feelinggreat about the outcome.
Another example at MEC I had abunch of admin assistants, cause
(11:38):
I always.
They always got promoted.
So in eight years I think, Ihad three or four admin
assistants and one of the jobsthey had to do was deal with the
plethora sometimes as many as10 to 20 a week or more requests
for community funding orcommunity support.
And I had this.
(11:58):
One person got hired, verysmart, and she came to me and
said you know, why don't we do aform letter for this?
She was like two weeks in thejob and had all these requests
she had to answer.
Why don't we do a form letter?
And I said no, can't do that.
And she said why not?
And I said because at the endof the day, no one cares how we
(12:19):
say yes, including our children,but everybody cares deeply how
we say no, yeah, including ourchildren.
But everybody cares deeply howwe say no, yeah, yeah.
And she said, well, I have noidea what you're talking about.
And I said I'll show you.
So I we spend an hour togethertalking about a letter and I
said I'll write a few with youand then you.
(12:39):
You know you can, you can runfrom there, right, you'll,
you'll build the.
And so she did that.
And about a month or two later,this fellow shows up at my door
from an organization that we hadsaid no to.
I didn't know that at the time.
He showed up at my office doorand he said are you the manager?
(13:00):
You know the general managerand yeah, he's, I just want to.
You know, I was in the storeshopping.
I just wanted to drop by andtell you.
You guys wrote me a lettertelling me you wouldn't support
what I was doing, and I saidokay.
And he goes that was the bestno I've ever gotten in my life.
I love you guys.
I like you more because you,even though you said no, and he
(13:22):
came over and shook my hand andsaid some other things and that
was that.
Yeah.
Dale (13:30):
So the investment of I haven't heard it put that way
before, but I like that a lotBuilding capacity, building
capacity in your employees to sois that to make a lot of the
decisions on their own and tojust use good judgment, you're
building those capabilities inthem to be agents working on
(13:51):
your behalf, instead of sayinghere's the policy book, do this,
follow this, no questions asked.
Just do my bidding.
Steve (13:58):
Well, exactly, and you used to use the wording on my
behalf, but I would kick it up anotch and say on behalf of the
mission of the organization.
Yeah, you know, I want peopleinvested in the mission of the
organization more than I wantthem invested to me.
Dale (14:15):
Yeah Well, and that's what I and I guess I'm saying that
coming from the other directionof we don't want it to just be
just do what I say.
It's you tap into the missionof the organization and use your
best judgment to execute that.
And you're saying that you know, long-term, you know that's
going to be more valuable thansomeone who just give me the
(14:36):
policy, tell me what you wantedme to do and I'll do it.
Steve (14:40):
Well, exactly, and when you look at marketing costs and
how much money your typical,even small companies like my
business spends on marketing,what's the?
You know it's funny.
You'll make a mistake with anad or do an ad or some media
thing or some marketing thingthat costs thousands and it
doesn't work.
And you have one reaction andone of your staff makes a
(15:01):
mistake that costs you $100 andyou have another reaction.
Yeah, that typically thosereactions are out of skew with
the reality of the moment.
And, more importantly, you know, if the hundred dollar mistake
the staff person made was on theright side of capacity building
and the right side of judgment,then really you just spend a
(15:22):
hundred dollars to keep acustomer acquired yeah which you
would gladly spend to get acustomer.
Dale (15:31):
Yeah, yeah.
I like that.
I like that perspective and alot of my as I had employees it.
Yeah, keeping employeeslong-term.
It's really hard to lose peopleand this I don't want to go
from.
But yeah, if you have, if youcan keep that capacity, and then
(15:51):
if that capacity can stay onyour team long-term, that's so
much more valuable than the,than the having someone.
It's really expensive to havesomeone for a year and a half in
certain.
Steve (16:03):
in certain ways it's brutal.
We, you know, in a resortcommunity, we've, you know, in
10 years I've probably gonethrough 60 staff, 70 staff.
We've grown the business.
We have a current staff of 10,including myself, but and my
store manager has been with mefrom pretty much day one 10
years.
But other than that we have aheck of a time.
People come to a mountaincommunity like Revelstoke for a
(16:26):
good time, not a long timetypically.
Dale (16:28):
Yeah.
Steve (16:29):
And it's been a super big challenge, very big challenge,
not only to train peopletechnically, because we cover
the full gamut from hiking andbackpacking and camping to
skiing, to touring, avalanchesafety, climbing, you know,
there's another category.
It's just a lot for any oneperson to know and have
(16:53):
technical expertise in and fieldexperience in, because we want
experience-based advice, giventhat people not you know there's
book knowledge and there's realknowledge of use.
So we try to achieve that too.
So, yeah, it's been a hugechallenge for us.
We, like you know I spend a lotof time talking and teaching
(17:14):
and training.
Yeah, so do you is.
Dale (17:18):
Is there a balance of a certain positions?
When you know something, is youknow someone's there for the
season that you say, look,there's a lot more clarity given
and less investment intocapacity.
Steve (17:29):
Absolutely.
Dale (17:31):
So there's that scale.
With your manager, you may havea very high capacity
perspective around.
Hey, you're here, you're thelifer here and we are building
your capacity.
And I'm going to let you wanderin a really broad way where an
employee that's there for theseason you might say, oh, we're
going to be a little moredeliberate.
Steve (17:52):
Yeah, we don't actually put it that way, but they kind
of know it doesn't actually workin a command and control sense.
I guess it goes back to how wehire.
We search for certain kinds ofpersonalities.
When we hire, the biggest thingwe look for is someone whose
heart is in the right place andhas a high mission of service
ethos.
(18:13):
The feeling from the businessperspective is they're not going
to do any damage.
For many decades the researchon customer behavior is showing
most complaints about serviceare based are about perceived
(18:36):
inattention, perceived slight.
Dale (18:38):
Huh.
Steve (18:39):
You know.
So if you've got a cash line,that's too long a wait.
The customer feels that theydon't matter.
We've all been there.
I mean, there's no time longerthan waiting to pay or waiting
to get our money out of the bankin the old days when there was
lineups, right like, one minutein a cash line is 10 minutes,
(19:01):
mentally yeah um, so you have tounderstand that and and you try
and build capacity around thepeople.
You want to hire people who getthat part of it Okay.
Interesting Someone that wehire would probably more likely
default to knowing they'rehelping someone with the cash.
(19:24):
They look up, there's two orthree people waiting and they go
.
You know what?
I'll be with you in just aminute.
Sorry for the wait.
Big difference, right?
Yeah, so that that kind ofperson is important to hire and
that kind of person is usually,in our experience, more
coachable and more interested inthe broader you know, the
(19:46):
broader concept of service andhuman behavior and doing it
excellent.
I mean, one of the things I'vehated about the retail industry
my chosen profession is itdoesn't get any respect.
People think retail is easy,people think retail isn't a real
job and the fact that the wayit's done in North America at
(20:09):
least retailers can't or won'tpay real good money although
COVID changed that to somedegree has helped license that.
I think your average retailperson in a technical outdoor
shop doing a really good job hasto have more skills than a lot
of people in other jobs makingthree times as much money.
(20:32):
Three and four times as muchmoney.
Yeah, and that's the truth ofit.
Yeah, so in my business I pay asmuch as I can.
Sadly, you know, we've justlearned we can't open the vaults
out of the gate because peopleleave so much that you know
you're paying overpaying for asix-month stint or a one year
stint.
We actually don't hire seasonalanymore.
(20:53):
I just refuse.
I'll close the store a day aweek if I have to, or I'll work
seven days for a short period oftime until we get a person
coming along who's going to bewith us at least a year.
Dale (21:04):
You know, ostensibly Do you have an ideal and I know
that there's different factorson different people's businesses
, but on a previous call wetalked about another owner and I
talked about just the payrollas a percentage of sales.
Do you track your business in away to kind of keep that in a
(21:26):
certain area?
Steve (21:27):
We track everything.
Keep that in a certain area.
Dale (21:32):
Oh, we track everything you know I'm.
I'm like for someone.
If you could give a minute longuh finance lesson for like hey,
you know, if you want to seethe levers of your business from
a high level, you know, look atthese couple things and they're
going to steer you.
What would you say?
Steve (21:49):
Well, the most important thing for an entrepreneur to
track is cashflow.
You know, very few, very, veryfew have a good sense of how to
actually create a cashflowspreadsheet or use cashflow out
of an accounting program.
Even bookkeepers, who aretrained, rarely train, rarely
have that sense of cash flow.
Um, you know, I have a cashflow that tracks every week.
(22:12):
Um, so that's the number onething.
And then in terms of ratiomanagement cause what you're
really talking about is your keyratios- yeah.
Yeah, and you know rent shouldbe.
You know the accepted wisdom isrent and occupancy costs
shouldn't exceed 10% of yourgross sales.
(22:33):
And the same thing with payroll.
The old saw was 10%.
Pretty tough in a specialtystore to keep that to 10%.
Dale (22:42):
Yeah.
Steve (22:44):
You're probably running closer to 15%, if not a little
higher, yeah.
Dale (22:49):
When I was running my online business, we were 13 to
14.
Steve (22:53):
Yeah, yeah, 15 is probably where it's mostly at
these days, and then you alsohave ebbs and flows, so you know
you'll have.
We've often had a situationlike right now.
We're in a situation wherewe've grown so much we've had to
expand full-time staffing,which drives up payroll, and
we're paying more because we'recapacity building.
But you know, the sales aren't.
(23:14):
They're still climbing, butthey're not where they need to
be for the sweet spot of thatexpense.
Intro (23:20):
Yeah.
Steve (23:21):
And that's where you're keeping your eye on your ratios
and understanding why it's going, because if you're going to
just look at it and go, oh it'stoo high, I got to cut.
It's going because if you'regoing to just look at it and go,
oh it's too high, I gotta cut.
You know, I gotta pay peopleless or cut.
Well, that's not the rightattitude.
Why is it high?
And is this an investment inthe future?
If it is, well, then just makesure you're you know what's
lining up with that investmentin staff that's going to make
(23:41):
the sales climb in a good way.
Yeah, you can always buy saleswith with advertising campaigns
that are short lived, but youreally, what you really want is
what I call organic growth, real, solid growth.
That'll be there next year aswell.
Dale (23:56):
Yeah.
Steve (23:56):
Yeah.
Dale (23:57):
Awesome, what?
What is one thing that maybe 20years ago or in your first, um
uh, shop experience, you didn'tbelieve about retail, retail.
But you've come to change yourmind.
You know now that it'sdifferent.
Is there anything that comes tomind of?
(24:18):
I fought this for a long timeand now I, you know?
Steve (24:23):
well, that's a yeah.
Let me think for a minutesomething I didn't believe or
did believe, which is now theother way, untrue or or totally
true.
Dale (24:35):
And I'll let you think about that for a second.
I want to go back, so thinkabout it, hold it and, if
something comes up, the we weretalking about entrepreneurs
inability.
So for those shop owners outthere that are maybe, you know,
just very slanted towards thatentrepreneurial side, you've
talked about how you and yourwife does coaches entrepreneurs
(24:56):
and and provides resources toentrepreneurs.
You guys have have made apractice of that and you
mentioned before, before ourcall, a lot of entrepreneurs
have a hard time taking advice,and that's the blessing and the
curse is they see something soclearly ahead but then they'll
also just miss everything.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that?
Steve (25:19):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
I mean, I think entrepreneursgood ones are, you know, so
right, most of the time thatwhen they're wrong it's massive,
it's a huge consequencetypically.
And uh, you know what makes anentrepreneur someone who wants
to put their own stamp on theworld, someone who wants
independence?
Um, so they're not gonna.
You know they're not prone tolistening to advice.
(25:41):
Uh, that not so much Right.
And when we've coached a lot ofentrepreneurs, we've seen that
where they're just so sure youknow that this person they want
to do a partnership with is theright person, or they're so sure
that this expansion withintheir store is going to work, to
(26:06):
work, and they're so sure ofother things that you know, even
in the face of adviceexperienced advice that says me
I wouldn't recommend you do this.
They go ahead anyway.
And part of that is, you know,we spend our lives growing up in
a world where you're gettingadvice from lots so-called
(26:26):
advice from lots of people.
You know our big banks aregreat at saying they give advice
.
They run ads saying, oh, trustus with your investments and
stuff.
But when you get in thosemeetings, quite frankly, from my
perspective they're prettyvanilla and they're pretty
germane and they're prettyuninteresting about investment.
So you know, and that's likeeverything, and when you break
down your life to get to be 20,25, by then your entrepreneurial
(26:49):
instincts are building and yougo the world doesn't know, you
know jack shit.
So I got to do it my way.
And the big successes inentrepreneurial world I mean
look at Yvonne Schoenert withPatagonia right, he just refused
to accept the world the way itwas and kept making these
decisions and changes and movingthings forward in a very unique
(27:11):
way.
And I had the pleasure ofspending time with Yvonne in the
80s when I was building myfirst company and learned from
him and yeah, so we're kind ofwired to not take advice.
So the challenge for advisors isto learn how to talk to
entrepreneurs in a way that theycan relate to and actually
embrace.
I kind of understood that earlyin my life because my first
(27:36):
business that I created formyself in 86, when I went to
incorporate it, I went to a lawfirm that I knew from a friend
and I got a lawyer who wasjunior and a lovely person did
the paperwork for theincorporation.
But I went home not happy.
So I made an effort a weeklater to get in touch with one
(28:03):
of the main partners in that lawfirm and I said can I have a
meeting with you?
And he said what about?
And I said, well, just give me30 minutes.
So I paid for the meeting, whichwas a lot of money.
And he said so what's up?
And I said well, you know, yourfirm did my incorporation a
week ago and I had a okayexperience with that, because
it's pretty mundane.
But he but I said, I want youas my lawyer and he goes why?
(28:26):
And I said well, because you'rethe senior partner and I know
my propensity for getting introuble and I want someone who's
going to give me advice thatI'm willing to listen to.
He said well, do you have anyproblems right now?
And I said, no, that's thepoint, I don't want to have him.
Yeah, and that lawyer became afriend and, as it turned out,
(28:49):
three or four years later I didhave some big issues that I
needed legal advice on and hewas quite good.
So you know, sometimes you gotto know yourself too where you
can get in trouble and bewilling to listen struck a chord
(29:13):
with me because I'm goingthrough a deal that's not
turning out as well as it shouldhave.
Dale (29:16):
And I look back and, as I do the postmortem, realizing all
the different things I missedalong the way and thinking.
And even in a conversation lastweek, my brother said, oh, I'd
pay a hundred grand to go backtwo years to have a conversation
with ourselves.
I'm like, oh, you know, yeah,I'm sure that we could probably
pay a few hundred grand, youknow, and most business owners
(29:38):
unfortunately, any, any mostbusinesses it would be a steal
if they could go back five yearsfor a hundred thousand dollars
just to give themselves a littleroadmap adjustment.
You know.
Steve (29:51):
Oh yeah.
Dale (29:51):
Hey, with this employee you know that direction, or with
this strategy or thatacquisition, whatever, there's
just so much money where.
Why is it that?
Yeah, I'm trying to develop myskill set around.
Let me just pay 5K today.
Let me just pay that.
Not even the money, but justthe attention towards some of
(30:13):
that where a lot of us are sofocused on plowing forward into
the future.
Well, I've.
Steve (30:20):
I've done it.
I've you know when.
Yeah, I hate to say it, but thelast time I didn't listen to
someone who I should havelistened to, and you know it
costs me half a million dollarssomeone who I should have
listened to, and you know itcost me half a million dollars.
Yeah, yeah, and I look back onthat moment and think you stupid
, idiot, how could you do that?
Yeah, and uh, yeah, yeah, it'spainful.
(30:43):
I still still have moments inthe shower thinking about that
moment and it hinged on a moment.
Yeah, I just looked back on it,but at that time that person
who I very much trusted justwasn't speaking in a way that I
could understand or embrace.
Right, I've had many accounts.
(31:05):
I come from a line ofaccountants, actually, and I
have three years on theprofessional accounting trading.
I never took my certificationbecause I realized, working in
my dad's practice for a while, Ididn't want to do that One of
the stops in my life and anyway.
But I've had a lot ofaccountants work for me.
But I've had a lot ofaccountants work for me, but
(31:32):
I've rarely had one that Ireally completely and utterly
respected.
I have that now, which is youknow, and is that because I'm at
the point in life where I'm at,or is that because this person
is truly exceptional?
I happen to think it's thelatter, because I've always been
willing to listen to accountingpeople.
But it's like any profession.
That's the 80-20 rule 20% ofpeople doctors, I don't care who
(31:54):
they are you get a shingle, youget a degree, that's fine.
20% of the people getting thatare exceptional at what they do,
20% probably shouldn't have gotthe degree or the shingle and
the other 60 are good at whatthey do, but not exceptional.
I mean, I just think that'strue in life period.
Yeah, so as an entrepreneur, itreally behooves you to find the
(32:19):
exceptional advisors.
One or two of them really payattention to numbers.
Cash flow is king king in anysmall business any business
really, but any small businessin particular and looking after
your you know building capacityand your staff don't short sell
them.
You know, one of the problemswith a lot of younger people
(32:44):
today is they are smart andthey've grown up in a world
where they learn faster and theyknow more than, say, I did at
age 20 about a lot of things.
That can lead them to believethey know more than they think
they know.
And then if you're an educatortype like myself, you know how
(33:04):
again I'm challenged with how doI speak to younger people in a
way that they can understand,you know, and I'm not just the
old shop owner who happens tohave a particular way of doing
things.
Dale (33:15):
Yeah.
Steve (33:16):
You know.
So that's always a leadershipchallenge, I think most days,
like I said at the top of theshow, most days I seem to know
what I'm doing, but the odd dayI questioned that top of the
show.
Dale (33:27):
Most days I seem to know what I'm doing, but the odd day
I question that.
But yeah, I love it so bychance and and I'm really glad
we took that direction.
But is there anything else?
Is there anything where you sayyou know a belief you had about
retail that maybe you'veswapped on?
Steve (33:42):
you know my core.
I was running that trackbecause I knew you were going to
circle back, as any goodfacilitator would.
My core beliefs in retailhaven't changed since I was 15,
selling greeting cards door todoor.
I learned a lot that summer andmy core beliefs haven't changed
(34:05):
.
Lot that summer and my corebeliefs haven't changed.
But what has changed?
I used to think when I was inbusiness and I was doing a lot
of business with a particularbrand, that we would be, you
know, friends, and it's not true.
You can be friendly with people.
Brands are never friends.
(34:26):
Brands are an entity ofbusiness and you know, life
moves along.
Sales managers change, thingschange dramatically and a lot of
brands we all do business withare owned by large entities and
(34:47):
they're not necessarily.
You know, I started in abusiness in the 70s and 80s when
companies all brands werestartups.
They were all owned by amazingindividuals who were trying to
do something special.
Well, that's changeddramatically now.
(35:08):
Now, and even brands like Imostly try to only do business
with brands that are smaller, alittle lesser known have have a
unique story, because we'vebuilt our business based on
uniqueness in many dimensions,one of which is the selection we
offer and the curatorship weoffer within those brands and
and the service, and there's along list of things that we
strive for uniqueness in and wehave, you know, in our strategic
(35:30):
plan.
We have ways we're doing that,but yeah, it's business.
At the end of the day it isbusiness.
So you know, that changed fromwhen I had my first business in
the 80s, for sure, and it's aschool of hard knocks because
I'm a pretty loyal guy to abrand I don't believe in.
You know, brands go throughhard times too and there's no
(35:54):
problem that's not solvable ifthere's dialogue and honest
intentions.
Dale (35:59):
Yeah, I love that.
I've really appreciated yourperspective on, well, just a lot
of this building capacity andemployees but I think that your
view towards people is admirableand healthy and I think will
get you better results.
And if we had lots more timewe're out of time now, but if we
(36:21):
had more time, man, I'd love to.
More time, man, I'd love to.
I think the it's I.
I would love to see yourstrategic plan at some point, or
even a template, because Ithink that's where a lot of
retailers maybe struggle,because a lot of people see
strategy differently, like, hey,we need a strategic plan, you
know, and that can mean adifferent thing to a lot of you
know, that can mean differentthings to people.
Steve (36:40):
Um, so oh, yeah, yeah, we'll have to have another
conversation someday or, youknow, if you're ever.
Dale (36:47):
I'd actually love to see any sort of template.
If you'd be willing to sharethat, I think long term and I
can I think that'd be a coolthing to provide on our on the
podcast website as well.
Just some of those resources,because your, your experience
would prepare you very well tocreate a strategic plan for what
(37:08):
you're doing now, having seenall those paths.
Steve (37:14):
I'll give that some thought.
Dale (37:16):
Think about it, hey, stephen, thank you so much.
It's been awesome to spend timewith you.
Steve (37:23):
It's been lovely, Dale.
A rather nasty email I sent youNot nasty, stinging,
hard-hitting Goes to show youJust lovely Thank you.
So much, awesome Thank you.
Outro (37:35):
Thank you for joining us on the Adventure Retail Podcast.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep innovating and remember
you're not alone on this retailjourney.
See you on the trail.
Welcome to the Adventure Retail Podcast, your go-to
destination for all thingsoutdoor retail.
Join us as we embark on ajourney through the captivating
world of outdoor gear shops,exploring retail triumphs,
challenges and everything inbetween, from product sourcing
to customer engagementstrategies.
We're here to support andempower outdoor gear retailers
every step of the way.
Dale (00:26):
Steven, it is great to have you on the show today.
Steve (00:29):
Well, thanks, Dale, nice to be here.
Dale (00:32):
So everyone, today this is Steve Cross from Revy Outdoors
in Revelstoke, Canada, and thisis his latest venture and we're
going to go through kind of hiswhole story and kind of what
brought him here and hisexpertise in retail.
Steve (00:47):
So if you could.
Dale (00:51):
Most days it's an expertise.
Well, it was really great tohave our conversation before,
just to understand the depth andbreadth of experience working
with brands like Patagonia, youknow, being the first to bring
them into Canada, your differentconsulting roles, working at
(01:12):
MEC, having your own chain ofshops.
There's a lot of.
There's a very holistic view ofretail that I'm excited for
everybody to be able to learn,to learn from.
Steve (01:24):
Yeah, well, happy to share it's.
In my case it's definitely theschool of hard knocks,
interspersed with some realeducation at times.
So you get to a point where youyou feel like you're putting it
together pretty well.
But you know, retail is not forthe faint hearted.
It's not easy.
It's one of the morecomplicated things to do in
(01:45):
today's world, especially as aspecialty retailer, because
there's so much out there that,for want of a better phraseology
, is working against you.
Dale (01:55):
Yeah, absolutely Well, and we are here today because of an
email exchange we had.
That wasn't the most warm andfuzzy thing in the world that I
experienced on a Saturdayevening, but I was really
excited.
You shared some very validpoints on you know, as I was
representing my brand, GrandTrunk, talking about things
(02:17):
you're like, hey, I think youguys should do this differently
and what are you doing with this, and whatever, and I'm really
happy that we get to have thisconversation.
Um, and the thing that I mostadmired from your email and the
subsequent back and forth thatwe had were it wasn't just a
complaint, it was.
It was a complaint and noticingsomething, but then also saying
(02:39):
um, you know, if you're here aremultiple options, that if
you're going to run your brandlike this, then then go this way
, or if you're going to do this,go the other way.
And I just loved your way ofthinking and that was a lot of
my motivation for being able tohave you share your perspective
here on the podcast.
(03:00):
So thank you for thank you forresponding and initiating that
dialogue, but then also beingwilling to have a good
conversation.
Steve (03:07):
Well, it ended up being a pleasure.
I mean, it's, you know, asurreptitious route to get us
here today.
But you know, I mean that'swhat can happen when you stay in
a conversation and you tradeviews and ideas right in a
serious way, not a superficialway.
Dale (03:23):
Yeah, absolutely, ideas right, in a serious way, not a
superficial way.
Yeah, absolutely so.
If you could, if you could tellus how, maybe in two minutes,
the timeline, your retailtimeline, like right now you own
an outdoor shop in Revelstoke,canada, and you know what, what
brought you here?
Steve (03:42):
you here.
I started in the outdoorindustry quite young, at 20, and
I'm a lot older now, so youknow I've worked for chains,
I've worked for big boxspecialty, I've worked for very
large brands at times and thenonce in a while, I've had my own
company.
All of them successful in theirown way, but some bad endings
(04:08):
for lots of different reasons.
So I've made a lot of money,not a lot of money.
I've made decent money and I'vealso lost decent money at times
.
We made the decision to move toRevelstoke 10 years ago because
our family, we just realized weneeded to live in the mountains
instead of just traveling to themountains six, seven times a
year.
And so Revy Outdoors is comingup to its 10th anniversary, this
(04:31):
Saturday actually and it'sgreat, we love it here because
it takes me back to my roots,when I started a specialty store
, way back, and it's nice, youknow.
I have to say it's it's.
You know where your store islocated really changes or
dictates or gives you a field ofplay that you have to pay
(04:53):
attention to.
Whatever you want it to be, ithas to be what people want in
that area and it's really nicebeing in a what I would call a
user market, but it's been verybeing in what I would call a
user market, but it's been verychallenging.
Dale (05:14):
Without a doubt, opening Revy Outdoors and Rebel Soak was
the biggest challenge I've hadin my retail career, and you
also had a chain of shops.
For a while you had a chain offive shops In the 80s?
Steve (05:26):
yeah, in the 80s you had a chain of shops.
Dale (05:28):
For a while you had a chain of five shops In the 80s
yeah, In the 80s you had a chainof five shops, and then you
were at MEC for eight years, soyou worked with a large retailer
for eight years.
Steve (05:37):
Yeah, for those who might not know, mec is basically like
REI, the Canadian version.
Yeah, my store in Toronto was45,000 square feet, 200 staff,
10,000 people a week through thedoor Back then.
Yeah, it was a different.
You know it was a leadershiprole as opposed to a technical
(05:58):
role.
My job was coaching the teamleaders and senior staff with
dealing with their teams anddelivering good service in a big
box environment, big boxspecialty, which is interesting.
So I did that and I've donefreelance work in the
not-for-profit sustainabilitysector.
(06:18):
Yeah, we've always tried tohelp entrepreneurs and others.
And, yeah, we've always triedto help entrepreneurs and others
.
The not-for-profit sector hasalways interested me because the
mission is more complicated.
You know, if you have afor-profit business, at the end
of the day the goal of thebusiness is to make money,
(06:38):
whereas not-for-profit has verycomplicated missions.
So that's been fun work too.
Through my career Done a lot ofthings, reached that point
where where, yeah, just done alot of things in life.
Dale (06:48):
yeah, happy to share what might be useful yeah, on our in
our conversation earlier youwere talking about.
You know, I've got five shopsand my employees are wanting
more of a set policy manual.
But I'm not really big onpolicy, I'm.
You know.
Your philosophy is use yourbest judgment.
How did you reconcile that witheight years working at MEC,
(07:12):
where clearly there's policy?
How did how did that and whatdid you?
Maybe, what did you maybe takefrom that perspective that that
you would have taken back toyour shop before?
Would you have melded it?
Or if you could talk a littlebit about that, Sure Interesting
topic.
Steve (07:32):
Ultimately, it's about building capacity in your
culture Capacity for grayness,for lack of clarity.
So back in the 80s, when I hadthose five stores, my store
managers were clamoring forpolicies and I didn't have any.
(07:53):
And I brought them all into abig meeting and there was
binders on the table and, longstory short, I said, ok, here's
your policy manual.
And they opened it and therewas a single uh the.
The first page said at alltimes, use your best judgment.
And all the other pages wereblank.
And then we spent a whole therest of that day talking about
(08:13):
what that meant, um, and how todo it.
So when you do that as a leaderor you build capacity in your
culture, you have to be willingto suffer the consequences of
learning right Like.
One of my best stories from theMBA program I did at Queens back
in the late 90s was the storyof Henry Ford Jr, and this is a
(08:38):
true story.
He had an engineer who made aserious mistake, cost Ford a lot
of money.
The engineer got called into ameeting with Henry Ford Jr, who
he'd never met, and he goes intothe meeting and, as the story
goes, henry Ford Jr said to himdo you know why you're here?
And the young engineer says yes, I do, you're OK.
(09:01):
Why are you here?
Well, you're going to fire mebecause I made a huge mistake
that cost the company millionsof dollars.
And Henry Ford Jr looked at himand said fire you.
Why would I fire you?
I just invested millions inyour education and I love that
story.
What what you're here for is totell me why it happened and why
(09:21):
it's never going to happenagain is to tell me why it
happened and why it's nevergoing to happen again.
So you do the same thing whenyou build capacity.
In the 80s, one of my storemanagers made a judgment call on
a refund situation.
Someone had bought a.
As it happens, it was aPatagonia fleece or shell, I
can't remember.
(09:42):
It left it on the white leatherseats of their convertible in a
rainstorm and it bled dye reddye into the white leather seats
, and so I didn't know aboutthis, and one day I get a
receipt from this manager in theoffice for $1,100.
We're talking 1988 for havingthis leather problem dealt with,
(10:04):
and so we ended up in a longconversation of well, you made
the right call, but you know,maybe we, maybe there was more
to it and stuff.
So you have to be willing tosuffer the consequences.
But the but the main thing I'mtrying to address is building
capacity.
Is is time consuming and it'shard on leaders who, you know,
want to have clarity.
So you asked me how does thattranslate to a culture like MEC,
(10:28):
where there would be setpolicies and so forth?
Yep, so in that situation, youknow, mec had a lot more
latitude in its policies inthose days than people might
think, but but they still hadpretty firm policies.
So in that sense, the challengefor the leader or manager or
owner is to have staff deliverthose policies in a way which
(10:52):
feels like they don't havepolicies.
So the worst thing you can doin a business is say our policy
is we don't, we're not going todo what you're asking us to do
to the customer.
Now you know why would you dothat?
I mean, it's easy to do.
You shut down a complaint oryou shut down an annoying
(11:14):
customer.
You shut down a good customerwho just isn't within the policy
framework.
So the challenge for leadersand managers is to end staff.
The biggest challenge is forstaff who need to learn and
adapt and grow so that they canhandle a conversation and have
that person walking away feelinggreat about the outcome.
Another example at MEC I had abunch of admin assistants, cause
(11:38):
I always.
They always got promoted.
So in eight years I think, Ihad three or four admin
assistants and one of the jobsthey had to do was deal with the
plethora sometimes as many as10 to 20 a week or more requests
for community funding orcommunity support.
And I had this.
(11:58):
One person got hired, verysmart, and she came to me and
said you know, why don't we do aform letter for this?
She was like two weeks in thejob and had all these requests
she had to answer.
Why don't we do a form letter?
And I said no, can't do that.
And she said why not?
And I said because at the endof the day, no one cares how we
(12:19):
say yes, including our children,but everybody cares deeply how
we say no, yeah, including ourchildren.
But everybody cares deeply howwe say no, yeah, yeah.
And she said, well, I have noidea what you're talking about.
And I said I'll show you.
So I we spend an hour togethertalking about a letter and I
said I'll write a few with youand then you.
(12:39):
You know you can, you can runfrom there, right, you'll,
you'll build the.
And so she did that.
And about a month or two later,this fellow shows up at my door
from an organization that we hadsaid no to.
I didn't know that at the time.
He showed up at my office doorand he said are you the manager?
(13:00):
You know the general managerand yeah, he's, I just want to.
You know, I was in the storeshopping.
I just wanted to drop by andtell you.
You guys wrote me a lettertelling me you wouldn't support
what I was doing, and I saidokay.
And he goes that was the bestno I've ever gotten in my life.
I love you guys.
I like you more because you,even though you said no, and he
(13:22):
came over and shook my hand andsaid some other things and that
was that.
Yeah.
Dale (13:30):
So the investment of I haven't heard it put that way
before, but I like that a lotBuilding capacity, building
capacity in your employees to sois that to make a lot of the
decisions on their own and tojust use good judgment, you're
building those capabilities inthem to be agents working on
(13:51):
your behalf, instead of sayinghere's the policy book, do this,
follow this, no questions asked.
Just do my bidding.
Steve (13:58):
Well, exactly, and you used to use the wording on my
behalf, but I would kick it up anotch and say on behalf of the
mission of the organization.
Yeah, you know, I want peopleinvested in the mission of the
organization more than I wantthem invested to me.
Dale (14:15):
Yeah Well, and that's what I and I guess I'm saying that
coming from the other directionof we don't want it to just be
just do what I say.
It's you tap into the missionof the organization and use your
best judgment to execute that.
And you're saying that you know, long-term, you know that's
going to be more valuable thansomeone who just give me the
(14:36):
policy, tell me what you wantedme to do and I'll do it.
Steve (14:40):
Well, exactly, and when you look at marketing costs and
how much money your typical,even small companies like my
business spends on marketing,what's the?
You know it's funny.
You'll make a mistake with anad or do an ad or some media
thing or some marketing thingthat costs thousands and it
doesn't work.
And you have one reaction andone of your staff makes a
(15:01):
mistake that costs you $100 andyou have another reaction.
Yeah, that typically thosereactions are out of skew with
the reality of the moment.
And, more importantly, you know, if the hundred dollar mistake
the staff person made was on theright side of capacity building
and the right side of judgment,then really you just spend a
(15:22):
hundred dollars to keep acustomer acquired yeah which you
would gladly spend to get acustomer.
Dale (15:31):
Yeah, yeah.
I like that.
I like that perspective and alot of my as I had employees it.
Yeah, keeping employeeslong-term.
It's really hard to lose peopleand this I don't want to go
from.
But yeah, if you have, if youcan keep that capacity, and then
(15:51):
if that capacity can stay onyour team long-term, that's so
much more valuable than the,than the having someone.
It's really expensive to havesomeone for a year and a half in
certain.
Steve (16:03):
in certain ways it's brutal.
We, you know, in a resortcommunity, we've, you know, in
10 years I've probably gonethrough 60 staff, 70 staff.
We've grown the business.
We have a current staff of 10,including myself, but and my
store manager has been with mefrom pretty much day one 10
years.
But other than that we have aheck of a time.
People come to a mountaincommunity like Revelstoke for a
(16:26):
good time, not a long timetypically.
Dale (16:28):
Yeah.
Steve (16:29):
And it's been a super big challenge, very big challenge,
not only to train peopletechnically, because we cover
the full gamut from hiking andbackpacking and camping to
skiing, to touring, avalanchesafety, climbing, you know,
there's another category.
It's just a lot for any oneperson to know and have
(16:53):
technical expertise in and fieldexperience in, because we want
experience-based advice, giventhat people not you know there's
book knowledge and there's realknowledge of use.
So we try to achieve that too.
So, yeah, it's been a hugechallenge for us.
We, like you know I spend a lotof time talking and teaching
(17:14):
and training.
Yeah, so do you is.
Dale (17:18):
Is there a balance of a certain positions?
When you know something, is youknow someone's there for the
season that you say, look,there's a lot more clarity given
and less investment intocapacity.
Steve (17:29):
Absolutely.
Dale (17:31):
So there's that scale.
With your manager, you may havea very high capacity
perspective around.
Hey, you're here, you're thelifer here and we are building
your capacity.
And I'm going to let you wanderin a really broad way where an
employee that's there for theseason you might say, oh, we're
going to be a little moredeliberate.
Steve (17:52):
Yeah, we don't actually put it that way, but they kind
of know it doesn't actually workin a command and control sense.
I guess it goes back to how wehire.
We search for certain kinds ofpersonalities.
When we hire, the biggest thingwe look for is someone whose
heart is in the right place andhas a high mission of service
ethos.
(18:13):
The feeling from the businessperspective is they're not going
to do any damage.
For many decades the researchon customer behavior is showing
most complaints about serviceare based are about perceived
(18:36):
inattention, perceived slight.
Dale (18:38):
Huh.
Steve (18:39):
You know.
So if you've got a cash line,that's too long a wait.
The customer feels that theydon't matter.
We've all been there.
I mean, there's no time longerthan waiting to pay or waiting
to get our money out of the bankin the old days when there was
lineups, right like, one minutein a cash line is 10 minutes,
(19:01):
mentally yeah um, so you have tounderstand that and and you try
and build capacity around thepeople.
You want to hire people who getthat part of it Okay.
Interesting Someone that wehire would probably more likely
default to knowing they'rehelping someone with the cash.
(19:24):
They look up, there's two orthree people waiting and they go
.
You know what?
I'll be with you in just aminute.
Sorry for the wait.
Big difference, right?
Yeah, so that that kind ofperson is important to hire and
that kind of person is usually,in our experience, more
coachable and more interested inthe broader you know, the
(19:46):
broader concept of service andhuman behavior and doing it
excellent.
I mean, one of the things I'vehated about the retail industry
my chosen profession is itdoesn't get any respect.
People think retail is easy,people think retail isn't a real
job and the fact that the wayit's done in North America at
(20:09):
least retailers can't or won'tpay real good money although
COVID changed that to somedegree has helped license that.
I think your average retailperson in a technical outdoor
shop doing a really good job hasto have more skills than a lot
of people in other jobs makingthree times as much money.
(20:32):
Three and four times as muchmoney.
Yeah, and that's the truth ofit.
Yeah, so in my business I pay asmuch as I can.
Sadly, you know, we've justlearned we can't open the vaults
out of the gate because peopleleave so much that you know
you're paying overpaying for asix-month stint or a one year
stint.
We actually don't hire seasonalanymore.
(20:53):
I just refuse.
I'll close the store a day aweek if I have to, or I'll work
seven days for a short period oftime until we get a person
coming along who's going to bewith us at least a year.
Dale (21:04):
You know, ostensibly Do you have an ideal and I know
that there's different factorson different people's businesses
, but on a previous call wetalked about another owner and I
talked about just the payrollas a percentage of sales.
Do you track your business in away to kind of keep that in a
(21:26):
certain area?
Steve (21:27):
We track everything.
Keep that in a certain area.
Dale (21:32):
Oh, we track everything you know I'm.
I'm like for someone.
If you could give a minute longuh finance lesson for like hey,
you know, if you want to seethe levers of your business from
a high level, you know, look atthese couple things and they're
going to steer you.
What would you say?
Steve (21:49):
Well, the most important thing for an entrepreneur to
track is cashflow.
You know, very few, very, veryfew have a good sense of how to
actually create a cashflowspreadsheet or use cashflow out
of an accounting program.
Even bookkeepers, who aretrained, rarely train, rarely
have that sense of cash flow.
Um, you know, I have a cashflow that tracks every week.
(22:12):
Um, so that's the number onething.
And then in terms of ratiomanagement cause what you're
really talking about is your keyratios- yeah.
Yeah, and you know rent shouldbe.
You know the accepted wisdom isrent and occupancy costs
shouldn't exceed 10% of yourgross sales.
(22:33):
And the same thing with payroll.
The old saw was 10%.
Pretty tough in a specialtystore to keep that to 10%.
Dale (22:42):
Yeah.
Steve (22:44):
You're probably running closer to 15%, if not a little
higher, yeah.
Dale (22:49):
When I was running my online business, we were 13 to
14.
Steve (22:53):
Yeah, yeah, 15 is probably where it's mostly at
these days, and then you alsohave ebbs and flows, so you know
you'll have.
We've often had a situationlike right now.
We're in a situation wherewe've grown so much we've had to
expand full-time staffing,which drives up payroll, and
we're paying more because we'recapacity building.
But you know, the sales aren't.
(23:14):
They're still climbing, butthey're not where they need to
be for the sweet spot of thatexpense.
Intro (23:20):
Yeah.
Steve (23:21):
And that's where you're keeping your eye on your ratios
and understanding why it's going, because if you're going to
just look at it and go, oh it'stoo high, I got to cut.
It's going because if you'regoing to just look at it and go,
oh it's too high, I gotta cut.
You know, I gotta pay peopleless or cut.
Well, that's not the rightattitude.
Why is it high?
And is this an investment inthe future?
If it is, well, then just makesure you're you know what's
lining up with that investmentin staff that's going to make
(23:41):
the sales climb in a good way.
Yeah, you can always buy saleswith with advertising campaigns
that are short lived, but youreally, what you really want is
what I call organic growth, real, solid growth.
That'll be there next year aswell.
Dale (23:56):
Yeah.
Steve (23:56):
Yeah.
Dale (23:57):
Awesome, what?
What is one thing that maybe 20years ago or in your first, um
uh, shop experience, you didn'tbelieve about retail, retail.
But you've come to change yourmind.
You know now that it'sdifferent.
Is there anything that comes tomind of?
(24:18):
I fought this for a long timeand now I, you know?
Steve (24:23):
well, that's a yeah.
Let me think for a minutesomething I didn't believe or
did believe, which is now theother way, untrue or or totally
true.
Dale (24:35):
And I'll let you think about that for a second.
I want to go back, so thinkabout it, hold it and, if
something comes up, the we weretalking about entrepreneurs
inability.
So for those shop owners outthere that are maybe, you know,
just very slanted towards thatentrepreneurial side, you've
talked about how you and yourwife does coaches entrepreneurs
(24:56):
and and provides resources toentrepreneurs.
You guys have have made apractice of that and you
mentioned before, before ourcall, a lot of entrepreneurs
have a hard time taking advice,and that's the blessing and the
curse is they see something soclearly ahead but then they'll
also just miss everything.
Can you talk a little bit moreabout that?
Steve (25:19):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
I mean, I think entrepreneursgood ones are, you know, so
right, most of the time thatwhen they're wrong it's massive,
it's a huge consequencetypically.
And uh, you know what makes anentrepreneur someone who wants
to put their own stamp on theworld, someone who wants
independence?
Um, so they're not gonna.
You know they're not prone tolistening to advice.
(25:41):
Uh, that not so much Right.
And when we've coached a lot ofentrepreneurs, we've seen that
where they're just so sure youknow that this person they want
to do a partnership with is theright person, or they're so sure
that this expansion withintheir store is going to work, to
(26:06):
work, and they're so sure ofother things that you know, even
in the face of adviceexperienced advice that says me
I wouldn't recommend you do this.
They go ahead anyway.
And part of that is, you know,we spend our lives growing up in
a world where you're gettingadvice from lots so-called
(26:26):
advice from lots of people.
You know our big banks aregreat at saying they give advice
.
They run ads saying, oh, trustus with your investments and
stuff.
But when you get in thosemeetings, quite frankly, from my
perspective they're prettyvanilla and they're pretty
germane and they're prettyuninteresting about investment.
So you know, and that's likeeverything, and when you break
down your life to get to be 20,25, by then your entrepreneurial
(26:49):
instincts are building and yougo the world doesn't know, you
know jack shit.
So I got to do it my way.
And the big successes inentrepreneurial world I mean
look at Yvonne Schoenert withPatagonia right, he just refused
to accept the world the way itwas and kept making these
decisions and changes and movingthings forward in a very unique
(27:11):
way.
And I had the pleasure ofspending time with Yvonne in the
80s when I was building myfirst company and learned from
him and yeah, so we're kind ofwired to not take advice.
So the challenge for advisors isto learn how to talk to
entrepreneurs in a way that theycan relate to and actually
embrace.
I kind of understood that earlyin my life because my first
(27:36):
business that I created formyself in 86, when I went to
incorporate it, I went to a lawfirm that I knew from a friend
and I got a lawyer who wasjunior and a lovely person did
the paperwork for theincorporation.
But I went home not happy.
So I made an effort a weeklater to get in touch with one
(28:03):
of the main partners in that lawfirm and I said can I have a
meeting with you?
And he said what about?
And I said, well, just give me30 minutes.
So I paid for the meeting, whichwas a lot of money.
And he said so what's up?
And I said well, you know, yourfirm did my incorporation a
week ago and I had a okayexperience with that, because
it's pretty mundane.
But he but I said, I want youas my lawyer and he goes why?
(28:26):
And I said well, because you'rethe senior partner and I know
my propensity for getting introuble and I want someone who's
going to give me advice thatI'm willing to listen to.
He said well, do you have anyproblems right now?
And I said, no, that's thepoint, I don't want to have him.
Yeah, and that lawyer became afriend and, as it turned out,
(28:49):
three or four years later I didhave some big issues that I
needed legal advice on and hewas quite good.
So you know, sometimes you gotto know yourself too where you
can get in trouble and bewilling to listen struck a chord
(29:13):
with me because I'm goingthrough a deal that's not
turning out as well as it shouldhave.
Dale (29:16):
And I look back and, as I do the postmortem, realizing all
the different things I missedalong the way and thinking.
And even in a conversation lastweek, my brother said, oh, I'd
pay a hundred grand to go backtwo years to have a conversation
with ourselves.
I'm like, oh, you know, yeah,I'm sure that we could probably
pay a few hundred grand, youknow, and most business owners
(29:38):
unfortunately, any, any mostbusinesses it would be a steal
if they could go back five yearsfor a hundred thousand dollars
just to give themselves a littleroadmap adjustment.
You know.
Steve (29:51):
Oh yeah.
Dale (29:51):
Hey, with this employee you know that direction, or with
this strategy or thatacquisition, whatever, there's
just so much money where.
Why is it that?
Yeah, I'm trying to develop myskill set around.
Let me just pay 5K today.
Let me just pay that.
Not even the money, but justthe attention towards some of
(30:13):
that where a lot of us are sofocused on plowing forward into
the future.
Well, I've.
Steve (30:20):
I've done it.
I've you know when.
Yeah, I hate to say it, but thelast time I didn't listen to
someone who I should havelistened to, and you know it
costs me half a million dollarssomeone who I should have
listened to, and you know itcost me half a million dollars.
Yeah, yeah, and I look back onthat moment and think you stupid
, idiot, how could you do that?
Yeah, and uh, yeah, yeah, it'spainful.
(30:43):
I still still have moments inthe shower thinking about that
moment and it hinged on a moment.
Yeah, I just looked back on it,but at that time that person
who I very much trusted justwasn't speaking in a way that I
could understand or embrace.
Right, I've had many accounts.
(31:05):
I come from a line ofaccountants, actually, and I
have three years on theprofessional accounting trading.
I never took my certificationbecause I realized, working in
my dad's practice for a while, Ididn't want to do that One of
the stops in my life and anyway.
But I've had a lot ofaccountants work for me.
But I've had a lot ofaccountants work for me, but
(31:32):
I've rarely had one that Ireally completely and utterly
respected.
I have that now, which is youknow, and is that because I'm at
the point in life where I'm at,or is that because this person
is truly exceptional?
I happen to think it's thelatter, because I've always been
willing to listen to accountingpeople.
But it's like any profession.
That's the 80-20 rule 20% ofpeople doctors, I don't care who
(31:54):
they are you get a shingle, youget a degree, that's fine.
20% of the people getting thatare exceptional at what they do,
20% probably shouldn't have gotthe degree or the shingle and
the other 60 are good at whatthey do, but not exceptional.
I mean, I just think that'strue in life period.
Yeah, so as an entrepreneur, itreally behooves you to find the
(32:19):
exceptional advisors.
One or two of them really payattention to numbers.
Cash flow is king king in anysmall business any business
really, but any small businessin particular and looking after
your you know building capacityand your staff don't short sell
them.
You know, one of the problemswith a lot of younger people
(32:44):
today is they are smart andthey've grown up in a world
where they learn faster and theyknow more than, say, I did at
age 20 about a lot of things.
That can lead them to believethey know more than they think
they know.
And then if you're an educatortype like myself, you know how
(33:04):
again I'm challenged with how doI speak to younger people in a
way that they can understand,you know, and I'm not just the
old shop owner who happens tohave a particular way of doing
things.
Dale (33:15):
Yeah.
Steve (33:16):
You know.
So that's always a leadershipchallenge, I think most days,
like I said at the top of theshow, most days I seem to know
what I'm doing, but the odd dayI questioned that top of the
show.
Dale (33:27):
Most days I seem to know what I'm doing, but the odd day
I question that.
But yeah, I love it so bychance and and I'm really glad
we took that direction.
But is there anything else?
Is there anything where you sayyou know a belief you had about
retail that maybe you'veswapped on?
Steve (33:42):
you know my core.
I was running that trackbecause I knew you were going to
circle back, as any goodfacilitator would.
My core beliefs in retailhaven't changed since I was 15,
selling greeting cards door todoor.
I learned a lot that summer andmy core beliefs haven't changed
(34:05):
.
Lot that summer and my corebeliefs haven't changed.
But what has changed?
I used to think when I was inbusiness and I was doing a lot
of business with a particularbrand, that we would be, you
know, friends, and it's not true.
You can be friendly with people.
Brands are never friends.
(34:26):
Brands are an entity ofbusiness and you know, life
moves along.
Sales managers change, thingschange dramatically and a lot of
brands we all do business withare owned by large entities and
(34:47):
they're not necessarily.
You know, I started in abusiness in the 70s and 80s when
companies all brands werestartups.
They were all owned by amazingindividuals who were trying to
do something special.
Well, that's changeddramatically now.
(35:08):
Now, and even brands like Imostly try to only do business
with brands that are smaller, alittle lesser known have have a
unique story, because we'vebuilt our business based on
uniqueness in many dimensions,one of which is the selection we
offer and the curatorship weoffer within those brands and
and the service, and there's along list of things that we
strive for uniqueness in and wehave, you know, in our strategic
(35:30):
plan.
We have ways we're doing that,but yeah, it's business.
At the end of the day it isbusiness.
So you know, that changed fromwhen I had my first business in
the 80s, for sure, and it's aschool of hard knocks because
I'm a pretty loyal guy to abrand I don't believe in.
You know, brands go throughhard times too and there's no
(35:54):
problem that's not solvable ifthere's dialogue and honest
intentions.
Dale (35:59):
Yeah, I love that.
I've really appreciated yourperspective on, well, just a lot
of this building capacity andemployees but I think that your
view towards people is admirableand healthy and I think will
get you better results.
And if we had lots more timewe're out of time now, but if we
(36:21):
had more time, man, I'd love to.
More time, man, I'd love to.
I think the it's I.
I would love to see yourstrategic plan at some point, or
even a template, because Ithink that's where a lot of
retailers maybe struggle,because a lot of people see
strategy differently, like, hey,we need a strategic plan, you
know, and that can mean adifferent thing to a lot of you
know, that can mean differentthings to people.
Steve (36:40):
Um, so oh, yeah, yeah, we'll have to have another
conversation someday or, youknow, if you're ever.
Dale (36:47):
I'd actually love to see any sort of template.
If you'd be willing to sharethat, I think long term and I
can I think that'd be a coolthing to provide on our on the
podcast website as well.
Just some of those resources,because your, your experience
would prepare you very well tocreate a strategic plan for what
(37:08):
you're doing now, having seenall those paths.
Steve (37:14):
I'll give that some thought.
Dale (37:16):
Think about it, hey, stephen, thank you so much.
It's been awesome to spend timewith you.
Steve (37:23):
It's been lovely, Dale.
A rather nasty email I sent youNot nasty, stinging,
hard-hitting Goes to show youJust lovely Thank you.
So much, awesome Thank you.
Outro (37:35):
Thank you for joining us on the Adventure Retail Podcast.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep innovating and remember
you're not alone on this retailjourney.
See you on the trail.
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