September 26, 2024 • 34 mins
What happens when you mix high-energy marketing genius with raw authenticity? You get Doug Zarkin. Today, we're bringing you an inspiring conversation with Doug Zarkin, the marketing mastermind behind heavy-hitting brands like Pearl Vision and Victoria's Secret. Doug opens up about navigating the peaks and valleys of his career journey, from high school rejections to pivotal career decisions. He takes us behind the scenes of writing his book, "Moving Your Brand Out of the Friend Zone," sharing his unique blend of art and science in marketing and how his education at George Washington University shaped his path. Doug's stories and insights are for aspiring marketers and anyone looking to make a meaningful impact.
Are loyalty programs transforming customer experiences or just another gimmick? Discover Doug's perspective on the evolving landscape of brand loyalty and innovation as we discuss standout programs like Marriott's Bonvoy and Delta's service enhancements. Doug shares how Marriott's flexible check-out times and Delta’s improved service offerings are setting new standards in customer satisfaction. We also touch on the balance between technological innovation and practical customer service solutions, highlighting the future of CRM systems in creating more human-centric business practices.
Authenticity and vulnerability in leadership? Yes, please. Doug’s candid discussion on company culture offers a fresh perspective on first impressions during the interview process and the role of real-time feedback. From self-deprecating leadership to the quirks of daily life, Doug's anecdotes reveal the importance of balancing professional and personal life with humor and relatability. He leaves us with powerful advice on embracing authenticity and using setbacks as stepping stones for success. Tune in for a treasure trove of wisdom from a marketing leader who truly walks the talk.
Doug Zarkin Biography:
Doug Zarkin is a renowned Chief Marketing Officer celebrated for his strategic acumen in brand revitalization, team leadership, and driving significant growth across multiple sectors. With a career that began in advertising, Doug co-founded G-WHiZ!, Grey Advertising’s division focused on youth, entertainment, and lifestyle marketing, crafting campaigns that captivated audiences nationwide. His tenure at Avon Products marked the launch of the “Mark.” brand, achieving $118 million in revenue within 18 months. At Victoria’s Secret PINK, as Vice President of Marketing, he transformed it into a $400 million brand, showcasing his ability to scale brands significantly. Doug’s impactful roles at global apparel giants Warnaco and Kellwood further underscored his marketing prowess. Doug is currently the Chief Customer Officer at Good Feet Holdings and previously served as the Chief Marketing Officer for Luxottica’s Pearle Vision, where he led a transformative brand overhaul that not only changed the company's market perception from discount to quality care but also sustained double-digit profit growth over eight years. This repositioning helped place Pearle Vision at the top of Entrepreneur’s Top 500 Franchise list. His leadership has earned him multiple Effie and Clio awards and a place in a Harvard Business School case study on brand revival. Doug is also the author of "Moving Your Brand Out of the Friend Zone," encapsulating his expertise in crafting influential brand narratives and fostering deep consumer connections.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dougzarkin/
To purchase "Moving Your Brand Out of The Friend Zone", visit:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CKD7F4S4
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rich (00:00):
I'm about to introduce Doug Zarkin to you guys and I've
known Doug for a few years.
I knew Doug when he was withKellwood.
I knew Doug when he was the CMOof Pearl Vision.
He's just written a book whichI'm halfway through right now.
Doug is.
If I were to pick one word todescribe him, it's energy.
I don't think I've had aconversation with him in the
(00:24):
last.
However many years I've knownhim where his energy level isn't
on ultra high.
Gautham (00:31):
I'm going to be the marketing professor in this call
, right, so I'm just going to beexcited to see what he has to
say when it comes to howmarketers can retain consumers'
attention and build a brand.
Can retain consumers' attentionand build a brand like get them
out of the friend zone andactually build a brand when we
are dealing with an attentiondeficit environment.
Paula (00:52):
Yeah, well, let's get Doug out of the friend zone.
And how about we take a listen?
Our guest today is Doug Zarkin.
Doug is an accomplished chiefmarketing officer, skilled in
team leadership, talentdevelopment, brand
revitalization and growth.
Beginning in advertising, dougco-founded G-Wiz Gray's
Advertising Youth.
Doug joined Avon Products Incas director of marketing,
(01:14):
launching the successful Markbrand, generating over $100
million in 18 months.
As vice president of marketing,he transformed Victoria's
Secret's pink into a $400million cross-category national
brand.
Doug then held pivotal roles atglobal apparel giants Warnocko
and Kellwood 2012,.
Doug became Chief MarketingOfficer for Pearl Vision,
(01:35):
driving the brand transformationof their global healthcare,
premium, omni-channel retail andfranchising businesses.
Author of Moving your Brand Outof the Friend Zone Fantastic
title, by the way.
Doug, welcome to the program.
We are excited to introduce youto our audience of
up-and-coming retailers andmarketers.
Doug (01:53):
If only my dad understood any of that introduction.
He still just thinks I make adsfor a living.
It's incredibly frustrating.
Paula (02:01):
It's adorable, though, thank you, thank you.
Very, very sweet.
Rich (02:05):
As you guys know, Gautham, maybe you and I can have our
students do a letter writingcampaign to Doug's dad and tell
him Great, yeah, yeah.
Doug (02:12):
He, finally, he finally, he finally realized who I worked
for.
And now I don't work for themanymore.
I'm now the chief brand officerat Goodfeet Holdings.
So the other day he calls me.
He says, doug, he's like youknow I was going to the eye
doctor.
He's like can you get me a pairof glasses?
I'm like, dad, I don't work forPerlany.
He's like you don't.
(02:37):
He's 82.
I'm like, no, I'm like younever listen.
And he didn't listen when hewas 42.
So you know anything yourstudents can do to help me.
Guys, thanks for having me, Iappreciate it.
Rich (02:45):
So I'm going to jump in and, given Paula's introduction
and we're going to clip a largerbio to this I want to take a
little bit of a differentapproach.
So, if you think back over thecourse of your career and you
can even go to your entire lifewhat are three experiences,
decisions or pivotal momentsthat you think has brought you
to where you are?
Doug (03:04):
today.
So first moment was senior yearin high school, getting
rejected from my top 11 choicesto go to college.
Gw, where I'm a proud alum, wasnot my first choice, it wasn't
my second choice.
I think I hold the record in myhigh school for the fastest
rejection from the University ofMichigan.
This was before it was electric.
I'm convinced they got theletter, held it up to the light
(03:26):
and were like nope, it was likesix days and that was the first
reality check that I had in mylife that I couldn't fake it any
, because up to that point Idon't think I ever opened a book
.
I didn't know how to study, Ijust would cram and would get
like high eighties, low ninetiesand I threw away a lot of
opportunities.
That was probably the first.
Second was I was 27 years old.
I got recruited by Pepsi to bethe brand manager on a new
(03:51):
product called Pepsi One and atthe same time I was approached
by the chairman of GrayAdvertising to start G-Wiz and I
decided to stay agency side.
So that was definitely apivotal moment.
And then I think probably thethird was making the decision to
step away from Pearl Visionafter 11 years, which I did last
summer to write my book Movingyour Brand Out of the Friend
(04:13):
Zone and then eventually startedin October as the chief brand
officer of Goodfeet Worldwide.
Rich (04:18):
So I'm going to ask the first interim question that
isn't on the script.
How long did it take you?
16 weeks.
Doug (04:23):
I had.
Yeah, well, it's funny, I madethe decision to write it May 1.
I had the outline and the nameof the book in 15 minutes, but
it took me 16 weeks.
I spent the entire summer Lastsummer.
I worked harder last summerthan I think I've worked in 20
years.
I would write six or sevenhours a day edit, rewrite.
But yeah, I wrote it in 16weeks.
Rich (04:41):
Well, I have a feeling when we ask you what advice
you're going to give to thoseout there Don't write a book,
don't write a book.
Don't write a book, all right.
So when you were in the processof getting rejected from 11
schools, did you see this asyour career path or did you have
a completely different-?
Doug (04:57):
Oh no, I wanted to be Bud Fox For anybody who's my age.
You saw Wall Street.
You wanted to be the nextGordon Gekko, Bud Fox, and then
I realized that very quicklythat my DNA was more adept for
something that was a little bitmore art and science than pure
numbers.
I use a lot of analyticalskills in what I do now, but I
(05:18):
very quickly realized I didn'twant to be a fixed income trader
.
Then I went to graduate schoolright after I graduated
undergrad, on Sundayno-transcript.
Gautham (05:55):
Gw is an amazing place.
How did you deal with it?
What's the secret for people tomanage?
Doug (06:01):
that moving forward.
So I remember I was on springbreak in high school with my
best friend who went to adifferent high school and every
school I got rejected from hehappened to get into.
We were at his grandparents'house in Florida, we were in
Boca, spending spring break inBoca, and every day my parents
would call me and give me anupdate.
It was a punch in the face.
I remember listening to my momjust so disappointed that I blew
(06:24):
it Because some of theseschools I was on the edge of
being accepted and I blew it.
I just didn't put the effort inmy second semester, junior year
, and I just absolutely blew it.
I was waitlisted, my number onechoice.
I was waitlisted when I appliedearly and they specifically
(06:46):
told me that I had to get onegrade up one and I was going to
get in and I didn't do it.
I didn't do it.
I had nobody to blame butmyself.
That kind of intellectual chipon my shoulder has stayed with
me my entire career.
I am not somebody who has beenlucky.
I believe in luck, but I justdon't have it.
I've worked my ass off.
I try to work harder andsmarter than everybody and that
doesn't mean that I'm smarterthan everybody, but I try to
pride myself on working harderand smarter than everybody.
(07:08):
I will never be outworked and Itry to not be out thought I
care so much about what I do.
Now it's such a big part of whoI am because I know what it's
like to not get and it sucks.
And as a parent, my daughter's ajunior in high school and I'm
going through the same thingwith her.
She's brilliant.
I tell her every day.
I'm like don't blow it, don'tblow it.
(07:29):
I know you want to go out, juststudy for an extra hour and
then go out, prioritize.
Don't make the mistakes I made.
I turned out okay, I guess, butI could have had it so much
easier I could have.
There's so many things I couldhave done and even in my career
I've made horrific mistakes, butI've tried to not make the same
(07:51):
mistake twice.
Rich (07:52):
But I don't want to start with a failure before going to
accomplishments.
But is there a failure that youhad that sticks out, that you
learned Professionally?
Doug (08:11):
100% when I went to.
So I was at Avon, so you'retalking to one of the few guys
that was an Avon lady.
You know, insert side jokesthere, I can still sell the shit
out of a lip gloss.
So all of you that are watchingmy daughter is really freaked
out when I take her to Sephoraand I her watching my daughter
is really freaked out when Itake her to Sephora and I'm like
you know you should look atthat shade.
I can also fit a bra.
(08:31):
I've never done with her, butto know that I can freaks her
out, that alone was worth it.
I was very fortunate when I wentto Avon in that the work that I
did in creating an entire newbusiness for the company
generated a significant amountof attention.
Not only did the plan that Ideveloped win Women's Wear Daily
Best Executed Launch StrategyAward, but I was awarded by
Brand Week as marketer of thenext generation.
And then, for the first time inmy career, I actually had luck.
(08:54):
That shone upon me and Istarted to get recruited by
companies like the Centerfielderfor the Yankees and Victoria's
Secret recruited me like theCenterfielder for the Yankees.
They threw a ton of money at meprivate jets.
I didn't have to relocate, Icould commute via the private G5
that they had at Teterboro, etcetera, et cetera.
It was the best, worst decisionI ever made.
(09:14):
I spent a little less than twoyears there, completely flamed
out, because I did not read thetea leaves on what the culture
of the company was.
You guys have all read countlessstories about what it was to
work at Limited and I will tellyou.
They're all true.
I ended up spending three daysa week going back and forth to
Ohio, even though we were basedin New York.
My entire team was really inOhio.
(09:35):
I wasn't going to relocate.
My wife and I were trying toget pregnant at the time.
It was just a culturally wrongfit.
It was working for a companywhere nobody's opinion mattered
other than the founder, and itdidn't matter how much time or
money or thought or strategy.
He wanted something purple.
It became purple and everythingstopped and it was just such a
toxic environment for me that,um, I left and it it sort of
(10:01):
stuttered my career a bit andthen I got myself back on my
feet and, you know, had somesuccesses.
But, yes, they paid for myapartment in Manhattan, but it
was, um, it was.
I always wonder what would havehappened if I had stayed at
Avon and been a little bit moreloyal.
The lesson are a guru from anintegrated brand perspective.
Rich (10:29):
How do you think consumer behavior has changed over the
course of your career.
Doug (10:34):
I think brands have started to need to appreciate
and that's part of the reasonwhy I wrote the book that they
are in the business now ofbuilding relationships with
their consumers.
You read textbooks.
What is the purpose ofmarketing?
And oh, marketing's blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
Marketing's job, full stop, isto motivate the consumer to do
what you want them to do whenyou want them to do it.
(10:55):
But that's not selling product,that's about consumer behavior
and that has taken brandsdecades to appreciate.
No-transcript.
(11:33):
I think that has changedradically and now more than ever
, with this push ofpersonalization and being able
to get not 52 flavors of icecream but 152 flavors, brands
have to work even harder tocultivate a connection.
Rich (11:47):
A couple of examples of brands or retailers that you
think are doing it well or ontheir way right now.
Doug (11:51):
I got to tell you I love what Marriott's doing.
I think what they've done withtheir Bonvoy program is
spectacular.
The hotel business wasdecimated during COVID but they
pivoted so smartly they madetheir loyalty program really a
loyalty program and the valuecreation that it gives you if
you're a frequent member ispretty amazing.
Something incredibly small likebeing able to check out of your
(12:13):
room at two o'clock, not 11 am,is a really big, freaking deal
For me.
Being able to check out at fourbecause of the status that I
have on Marriott's program iseven better.
That means I can do a day, runback to my hotel room, grab my
bags and go as an example.
Or when I'm with my family andit's a late night flight, we're
not spending the entire day atthe pool in our travel clothes.
(12:34):
Things like that are such smallwins.
A complimentary upgrade to abigger room, even if it's for
one night, you don't really care.
I'm the king of.
Hey, let's upgrade you to thepresidential suite and you're
only in town for 24 hours.
I I can't even tell you howmany overnight flights where I
get to the hotel at 11 o'clockI've gotten upgraded to like the
super mcgillis suite and I'mlike there's six bathrooms in
(12:55):
here so I got to use every towelin the entire entire room.
I don't feel good if I don't, soI'll take a shower in one, a
bath in the other, just to beable to experience it, and then,
when, when I need it, it's like, oh well, it's not available.
But I think Marriott and theirBon Voyage program is a great,
great example, I think.
Another good example Delta,another service provider that I
(13:15):
use religiously the lack ofchange fees, the lack of drama
that exists now versus whathappened pre-COVID.
I think they've just gottenbetter and smarter and realized
that consumer loyalty is aprivilege, not a right.
So those are a couple that Ithink, just off the top of my
head.
Gautham (13:30):
Doug, can I double click on a point that you made
that resonated a lot with me,which was the point of
connections right In a worldwhere we have increasingly
proliferate product choices,where attention span lasts 15
seconds at best and wherecompetition and price and other
levers happens, how do brandsstay connected?
Doug (13:53):
Oh my God, that is such a softball question, and I
appreciate it, and I'll tell you.
There's an entire chapter inthe book that talks about the
brand value equation.
But at the essence of the book,and at the essence of what I am
as a leader and who I am as amarketer, it is the notion of
what I call thinking human, andthinking human comes down to a
simple principle, and it is thisIf you treat every customer as
(14:16):
if they were your only customer,what would your entire business
model look like, from customerservice to refund and warranty,
to product curation, to CRM, torefund and warranty, to product
curation to CRM?
The challenge businesses havetoday is they get too big and
they forget the fundamentals.
And when you see brands thatonce were thought to be
(14:36):
untouchable, all of a sudden andlook, we're dealing with it
right now Apple just launched anew commercial for their iPad,
unbelievably tone deaf.
Great strategy behind it thatthis iPad does all of this stuff
, but instead of talking aboutit as a value creation, what
they did is they basically saidyou don't need all this crap,
you have this.
They flipped it on the negativeas opposed to the positive, and
(14:58):
consumers are not happy.
Think about what's happenedwith the backlash to even brands
like Amazon with Prime and thedrama that's happening there.
Not just Prime, the shipping,but Prime the video content
sharing passwords, et cetera.
That's happening at Netflix aswell.
Brands that were untouchableare now starting to come back
(15:20):
down to earth when they forgetto treat every customer as if
they were your only customer.
Rich (15:25):
What I love about what you're saying is that you're
mixing in innovation with whatI'll call just common sense
customer service and taking careof someone as a Bonvoy customer
.
One of the and it's a subtleinnovation that I like is the
ability to chat.
I don't have to call, I don'thave to go down to the front
desk, I can just send a chat tothe front desk and ask for
(15:47):
something.
If you think about it from aretail, from a marketing, from a
brand perspective, whatinnovation stands out for you
and I'm going to give you thepart two to that what do you
hope gets innovated in the next10 years?
Doug (15:59):
I think what innovation stands out for me is the
suggestions that come when youfill your cart.
I'm thinking mainly e-commerceFor those that do it well.
They do it really really well,and most of those are like micro
brands, brands that start onInstagram or that don't have
huge marketing budgets.
Their suggested add-onsfeatures seem to be really good.
Like, the algorithm seems to bereally sharp.
(16:21):
Where I am hoping there isimprovement, ironically, is in
things like CRM.
I'll buy my wife jewelry andI'll get an email that says dear
Doug, I hope you're enjoyingthe earrings and necklace you
bought.
I didn't buy it, genius.
I bought it for her.
You should be able to discernit.
It should be a code that it wasa gift.
If I had the thing gift wrapped, which I did, you should be
(16:43):
able to flag that in your CRMsystem.
When you get emails from thecompany that are saying, hey, I
hope you're enjoying versus hey,I hope the person you bought it
for is enjoying.
To me that's a huge myth,because I can't even tell you
how many unsubscribes that I dofor just stuff.
I'm not interested.
I'm simply not interested, andit annoys me because email has
become such an intrusive part ofour life.
(17:03):
Even as we're talking right now, I'm getting like 30 emails pop
up on my phone and most of themare spam.
We have gone so much to thesimple, easy and forgotten the
humanity of what we do.
Work a little harder.
Appreciate that somebody gaveyou their contact information.
Don't be a jackass.
Take a couple minutes andreally think about what you're
doing.
Sorry, kids, Don't mean to usesaucy language, but I'm
(17:24):
passionate.
Rich (17:25):
No, that's okay.
They love that.
It's a good thing, All right.
So let's pivot a little bittowards those that are going to
take over for you at some point.
Thanks for that, Richard.
I got two kids Well.
Thanks, Matt.
Yeah, I know I didn't mean todo that to you, but I'm facing
that myself.
But I know you've had mentorsand advisors along the way.
Is there one in particular thatcomes to mind and a piece of
(17:48):
advice that you've held on to?
Doug (17:49):
Yeah, I mean, I have been very fortunate and you're going
to laugh when I finish thesentence to work for some pretty
shitty people.
I have learned so much frompeople that I have worked for
that I didn't respect.
I have also been blessed towork for.
Amazing.
One I write about in my book wasmy partner and co-founding,
g-wiz, and her name is Barb.
(18:11):
She, very early on in mydevelopment, realized that I had
something, but I needed thatsomething to be refined.
And do I think it's fullyrefined today?
No, but she gave me enough ropeto climb, and just enough rope
to start to choke myself outwithout fully doing the deed.
The lesson for me there wasabout perspective.
(18:34):
She taught me perspective.
She helped me understand whatsuccess really looked like, and
it wasn't always when we won theaccount on the agency side.
Success could be aboutconnecting with somebody.
Success could be about how.
She really helped me understandthat the how was as important
as the what design.
Success could be aboutconnecting with somebody.
Success could be about how.
She really helped me understandthat the how was as important
(18:54):
as the what.
On the other hand, I worked forsomebody and I won't give the
company because it'll identifywho the person is who had the
audacity to stand in front ofthousands of people and take
credit for my work.
I was sitting in the audiencewatching this person present my
work.
This wasn't even like it was ateam effort this was my work and
take credit for it and didn'thave even the mindset to
(19:16):
recognize me from the stage.
I was devastated, devastated,and it was at that point that I
made the decision that I was notgoing to work for that person
much longer.
Paula (19:25):
How did you deal with that situation?
I know you just talked throughit.
You can talk through it again,as if you didn't explain it.
Doug (19:31):
Not my finest moment.
I actually broke down and criedin my seat in the audience
watching and I had to leave theauditorium and collect myself,
and it took me a good 24 hoursbefore I could say what I needed
to say, and I tried to say itcalmly, but even as I tell the
story now I get just so angryit's.
One of my biggest pet peeves iswhen people stand up and take
credit for other people's work.
The true mark of a leader ishow you celebrate the people
(19:52):
that help you become a leader,not when you stand up and you
tell everyone that you did it.
You have an obligation as aleader to lead, but if you don't
lead the right way, people willnot follow, and I think at some
point you have to advocate foryourself as a human being.
That's why I really try to pridemyself on always having the
best intent.
I may not have the bestdelivery, I may not always do it
(20:13):
the right way or say it theright way, but what I can say
without reservation orhesitation is that my intent is
always well known, which is Iwant to help.
I don't talk unless I think Ihave the right thing to say or I
can make a meaningfulcontribution.
But like anybody, I want to betold I'm doing a great job, just
like the next person.
(20:33):
It doesn't change.
There's a reason why presidentslive and die by approval polls.
They stand up and say I don'tlook at polls.
Of course you do.
Of course you do.
Validation is a big part oflife.
Rich (20:43):
It's also a big part of leadership.
So what advice do you give tosomebody in that situation,
someone who is coming up throughthe ranks and feels that they
didn't get the recognition basedon how you felt in?
Doug (20:55):
that situation.
So you give advice that youprobably won't take yourself,
which is why it's called advice,right?
If it's not, it would probablybe called decisions, but it's
called advice.
I think you have to askyourself is the juice worth the
squeeze?
You just learned somethingincredibly valuable about that
person.
Let it shape the way you behavearound that person.
Going forward, however,insanity is doing the same exact
(21:18):
thing over and over andexpecting a different response.
There comes a point where youhave to put on your big boy
pants or big girl pants, and yougot to step up to the plate and
be like no, not more.
Own your space, don't expectsomeone to hand it to you.
Take your development in yourown hands, take your growth in
your own hands, take yourself-worth in your own hands,
(21:39):
but not everything in life is acatastrophe.
You got to be mindful.
How you allow people to treatyou says more about you than it
does about them?
Rich (21:48):
Fair point, all right.
So I have two more questionsbefore we go to a rapid fire.
And I'm actually debating, andGotham and Paula may jump in,
but I'm debating what order Iwant to ask them in, so I'm just
going to shoot.
What do you think is the mostunderrated skill set today?
Or undervalued the size of us?
Now see, I love the fact thatyou said that one word answer.
(22:09):
You paused, it was decisive andit was awesome.
What do you enjoy most aboutwhat you do?
What do you really love.
Doug (22:17):
I love that I get to make a difference, not as a CBO, not
as a CMO, not as a head ofmarketing, but as a human being.
I can look at the businessesand brands that I've been a part
of and I can show you where myfingerprints are on them, and
that is really cool, Awesome.
Rich (22:33):
All right, paula Gotham.
Anything else before I headinto a rapid fire.
Gautham (22:36):
Let me ask you a question, doug, if you don't
mind entertaining me, somethingthat another point that stood
out was you.
When you talk about beingflamed out in your best, worst
decision and you talk about andI'm talking with students for
the past 12, 15 years it'salmost always the first factor
that they look to when theydecide which company to work for
(22:58):
.
At the same time, knowing theculture from outside in is
difficult.
So how would someone who's newto this environment navigate,
figuring out what are thesignals that they can draw.
Doug (23:10):
Oh, it's such a great question, and if you only had a
crystal ball and you couldreally get a sense of you.
Don't get a sense of cultureuntil you actually experience it
right.
It's like you don't know howgood something actually tastes
until you taste it.
I think how you're treated inthe interview process says a lot
.
Does the person interviewingyou use your first name?
Are they on time?
Do they ask you about you?
Do they listen?
(23:32):
Are they receptive to yourquestions?
You get a sense of culturethere.
You get a sense of culture notjust of the culture, not just
about how your boss treats you,but how your boss's boss
understands you.
Does he, she or they take thetime to get to know you as a
person?
One of the things that I pridemyself on and I am really
focused on it is I'm a real-timefeedback leader.
(23:53):
If you're in a meeting with meand it goes well, I'm going to
send you a note and be, like you, crushed it.
Rich (23:57):
So sometimes for managers, giving feedback when somebody's
done something positive isthat's the fun part, that's the
easy part.
What about when somebody hasdisappointed you or they haven't
done as good of a job?
What are you doing then?
Doug (24:11):
I had a meeting yesterday with one of my direct reports
and he sent me a note after themeeting say hey, you know I'm
sorry, I know I was in themeeting, I was a little
confrontational but you know Ithink your vision's great and
you know I hope I didn't rub youthe wrong way.
And my note to him back was youactually came across really
negative and not solutionsfocused.
And while I love a good debate,at some point understand that
(24:33):
there's a lot of fun in figuringout how to do something versus
spending the time talking to us,talking to me, about what can't
be done.
And he's like I appreciate thefeedback, I take it to heart.
He may not be pleased with whatI said, but it's how I felt.
I would much rather do thatthan six months from now and be
like remember that meeting wehad in April or May.
You were a real jerk who wantsto hear that.
(24:54):
It's ridiculous.
I think things like that.
And is your leader?
Does your leader have a degreeof self-deprecation?
I make more fun of myself infront of my team than probably
anybody else.
You're not making fun of thepeople.
You're having fun with thepeople and you got to be careful
, but you also have to know thatyou have the cultural
permission, and the way you havethe cultural permission is to
start with you.
(25:14):
My life is like a terriblesitcom.
I'm a husband and married 21years.
I have two kids a daughterwho's 16, my son's 14.
I have two dogs.
I never thought I'd be the guywho has two dogs, but we just
rescued a dog, so we have twodogs.
My life is is is on.
Any given weekend is a completetrain smash, going from travel
baseball to my personal tennisto driving my daughter doing
(25:35):
driving lessons.
And if you can't laugh at that,if you can't have fun with that
and share that with your team,you lower the wall.
Yes, I'm not worried that theydon't respect.
I ensure that that exists.
They don't.
I don't want them to fear meand I want them to like me.
I'd much rather be respectedthan liked, but it's kind of
nice to be both All right.
Rich (25:53):
So rapid fire.
First sports or concertexperience that you remember
Concert experience.
Doug (26:00):
Jones Beach I was 16 years old.
There was a girl I really likedwhose mom happened to be a DJ
at one of the local stations,and we went to see Chicago at
Jones Beach and it was the firsttime that my parents let me
drive on the Long IslandExpressway.
I was terrified and this was aworld before Waze or MapQuest.
(26:23):
So it was printed outhandwritten directions and God
forbid, because like most men, Idon't have a sense of direction
If I missed the wrong exit Iwould have ended up, guy,
probably in Montauk.
But yeah, I remember thatvividly.
Rich (26:35):
Do you have a and we debated this one yesterday but
do you have a walk-on song or doyou have a?
Doug (26:41):
favorite, oh yeah, the walk-on song, the Imperial Death
March from Star Wars.
I love it, love it, I love it,I love it, I love it.
It just takes you know what, asa chief brand officer in
franchise Businesses, you justhave to own it.
Rich (26:57):
So just own it.
If you could automate one partOf your life, what would it be?
Doug (27:02):
Automate one part of my life.
What would it be?
Oh easy, the morning andevening walks with the dogs I
start.
Any leader who ever thinksthey're too big for their
britches have dogs.
You start your morning pickingup shit and you end your night
picking up shit.
So if I could automate thosetwo things, let me tell you I
have made more deals with theman above on a rainy night for
(27:25):
my dogs go to the bathroom.
I think I've sold my soul toMephistopheles like 20 times
over for this little 20 pounddog to please just go to the
bathroom.
I think I've sold my soul toMephistopheles like 20 times
over for this little 20 pounddog to please just go to the
bathroom so that I can go insideand get dry or go to sleep.
Love it.
Rich (27:37):
All right, I'm going to try one more Favorite comfort
food.
Tough day at the office.
What's the one thing that youwant?
Doug (27:44):
I happen to like a really good chocolate chip, a really
really good chocolate chip.
But it can't be fresh, it's gotto be like one or two days old.
So it's like crunchy on theoutside, still a little bit soft
on the inside, but like a goodlike diner, like east coast
diner.
Chocolate chip cookie is prettydamn good I'm gonna ask you a
question.
Gautham (28:03):
I heard you say a private tennis, so it looks
sounds like you're a tennis.
Doug (28:07):
I am, I am.
I play what's your favorite umI love.
I love tennis myself so who?
Gautham (28:10):
you're a tennis player?
I am, I am, I play, I lovetennis myself.
So who's your favorite tennisplayer that you would like to do
?
Oh yeah, nick, kyrgios, nick.
Doug (28:18):
Kyrgios.
I don't even have to thinktwice about it, really, I don't
even have to think twice aboutit.
I had the privilege of workingwith Billie Jean King for a
couple of years when I was atPearl.
But, nick, if I could, if Icould spend a weekend with him
not only just hitting on theboard, nick, cause he's, he's
nuts, he is just certifiablynuts, but he is probably the
(28:43):
most naturally gifted tennisplayer I've ever seen.
And to understand his mindset,um, I had the pleasure of
watching him play live Wow.
I had the pleasure of watchinghim play live Wow.
I could do what he doesPhenomenal.
Gautham (28:54):
I'll agree with that.
Rich (28:56):
That's a great way to wrap it up.
All right, doug.
I want to thank you foragreeing to come on to Retail
Relates today.
Absolutely fantastic.
When we were first gettingtogether and making a list of
guests that we wanted to kick usoff, you were right at the top
of the list and now I know why.
Hey, I appreciate you andappreciate all the love.
Doug (29:16):
I wish you, I wish your students most importantly.
I have one parting piece ofadvice for you Stop worrying
about the right way.
There is no such thing as aright way.
There's no such thing as awrong way.
It's a way.
Figure out a way and enjoy it.
Stop worrying about being wrong.
Gautham (29:34):
I mean again.
That probably wraps up our weekguys.
Doug (29:42):
Guys, it was great seeing you.
Thank you so much for your time.
Rich (29:44):
I appreciate it.
I don't know that I can matchthe energy that we just
witnessed for the last 40minutes 35 minutes so I'm going
to catch my breath and let youguys comment what you absorbed
from Doug.
Paula (29:57):
One word answers decisiveness.
So that's the only way I'mtalking now, only because I
really like it and I think it'sefficient.
So thank you, doug, I feelinspired.
Gautham (30:08):
What stood out to me was the initial part of the
conversation actually right.
So when he talked about how hissetbacks not getting admitted
into the top schools actuallylit a fire and propelled him to
newer heights, I think that'svery important right.
Like many a time, I never gotinto my first option, but it's
(30:28):
how you deal with thesecircumstances that actually
matters, and it was.
It was good to hear him speakabout that in such a passionate
way and, man, if I can matchthat energy of his, if I can
bring that to my classroom foreven 15 minutes, I'll be a rock
star.
Paula (30:42):
I think Doug is a clear example of someone that can use
his emotions to his advantageand has learned how to master
them to an extent that it isadvantageous.
It's a value add.
Rich (30:53):
I think and this is something I've actually learned
from my daughter there's a levelof realness when it comes to
that in that, as leaders,sometimes people want to see you
and they want to follow you,but that there are times where
you can express a degree ofvulnerability, like Doug did in
that situation, and I think youcan learn as much from that as
you do from anything else.
Gautham (31:14):
I'll take it a little bit differently, in the sense
that I thought it was more aboutbeing authentic to who.
You are right, and the way Isaw it was that that's him Like.
In his years of experience hehas discovered that that's him
and he is just owning that spaceand for me that was the biggest
(31:35):
thing right, and it's been astruggle for me to really be
authentic to myself and it'sonly been recently that I got to
that stage, so it was reallynice to see somebody saying like
, yeah, it's okay.
Rich (31:39):
It was interesting because he was making the point about
getting to know him as acustomer and the gift that he
bought for his wife.
And shouldn't you know that?
I was envisioning how much AIor technology is going to end up
learning about you and at whatpoint does it become too much.
But I think he simplified itand said look, if you saw that I
(31:59):
gift wrap it and it wasn't forme, that should be enough for at
least you to recognize that itwas a gift, and don't ask me how
I'm enjoying it, and show methat you care.
Gautham (32:10):
I will say that when Doug talked about brands, what
is the secret for brands to havelongevity?
That contact with the customer,staying true to the customer,
respecting the customer.
It's a very, very, very simpleconcept, but at the same time it
is the essence of marketing.
(32:31):
And when today we have aproliferation of options and
technology doing a lot of ourjobs, how do we stay in touch?
A simple enough idea, butgetting more and more
complicated.
Paula (32:42):
That was good.
I'm about to introduce Doug Zarkin to you guys and I've
known Doug for a few years.
I knew Doug when he was withKellwood.
I knew Doug when he was the CMOof Pearl Vision.
He's just written a book whichI'm halfway through right now.
Doug is.
If I were to pick one word todescribe him, it's energy.
I don't think I've had aconversation with him in the
(00:24):
last.
However many years I've knownhim where his energy level isn't
on ultra high.
Gautham (00:31):
I'm going to be the marketing professor in this call
, right, so I'm just going to beexcited to see what he has to
say when it comes to howmarketers can retain consumers'
attention and build a brand.
Can retain consumers' attentionand build a brand like get them
out of the friend zone andactually build a brand when we
are dealing with an attentiondeficit environment.
Paula (00:52):
Yeah, well, let's get Doug out of the friend zone.
And how about we take a listen?
Our guest today is Doug Zarkin.
Doug is an accomplished chiefmarketing officer, skilled in
team leadership, talentdevelopment, brand
revitalization and growth.
Beginning in advertising, dougco-founded G-Wiz Gray's
Advertising Youth.
Doug joined Avon Products Incas director of marketing,
(01:14):
launching the successful Markbrand, generating over $100
million in 18 months.
As vice president of marketing,he transformed Victoria's
Secret's pink into a $400million cross-category national
brand.
Doug then held pivotal roles atglobal apparel giants Warnocko
and Kellwood 2012,.
Doug became Chief MarketingOfficer for Pearl Vision,
(01:35):
driving the brand transformationof their global healthcare,
premium, omni-channel retail andfranchising businesses.
Author of Moving your Brand Outof the Friend Zone Fantastic
title, by the way.
Doug, welcome to the program.
We are excited to introduce youto our audience of
up-and-coming retailers andmarketers.
Doug (01:53):
If only my dad understood any of that introduction.
He still just thinks I make adsfor a living.
It's incredibly frustrating.
Paula (02:01):
It's adorable, though, thank you, thank you.
Very, very sweet.
Rich (02:05):
As you guys know, Gautham, maybe you and I can have our
students do a letter writingcampaign to Doug's dad and tell
him Great, yeah, yeah.
Doug (02:12):
He, finally, he finally, he finally realized who I worked
for.
And now I don't work for themanymore.
I'm now the chief brand officerat Goodfeet Holdings.
So the other day he calls me.
He says, doug, he's like youknow I was going to the eye
doctor.
He's like can you get me a pairof glasses?
I'm like, dad, I don't work forPerlany.
He's like you don't.
(02:37):
He's 82.
I'm like, no, I'm like younever listen.
And he didn't listen when hewas 42.
So you know anything yourstudents can do to help me.
Guys, thanks for having me, Iappreciate it.
Rich (02:45):
So I'm going to jump in and, given Paula's introduction
and we're going to clip a largerbio to this I want to take a
little bit of a differentapproach.
So, if you think back over thecourse of your career and you
can even go to your entire lifewhat are three experiences,
decisions or pivotal momentsthat you think has brought you
to where you are?
Doug (03:04):
today.
So first moment was senior yearin high school, getting
rejected from my top 11 choicesto go to college.
Gw, where I'm a proud alum, wasnot my first choice, it wasn't
my second choice.
I think I hold the record in myhigh school for the fastest
rejection from the University ofMichigan.
This was before it was electric.
I'm convinced they got theletter, held it up to the light
(03:26):
and were like nope, it was likesix days and that was the first
reality check that I had in mylife that I couldn't fake it any
, because up to that point Idon't think I ever opened a book
.
I didn't know how to study, Ijust would cram and would get
like high eighties, low ninetiesand I threw away a lot of
opportunities.
That was probably the first.
Second was I was 27 years old.
I got recruited by Pepsi to bethe brand manager on a new
(03:51):
product called Pepsi One and atthe same time I was approached
by the chairman of GrayAdvertising to start G-Wiz and I
decided to stay agency side.
So that was definitely apivotal moment.
And then I think probably thethird was making the decision to
step away from Pearl Visionafter 11 years, which I did last
summer to write my book Movingyour Brand Out of the Friend
(04:13):
Zone and then eventually startedin October as the chief brand
officer of Goodfeet Worldwide.
Rich (04:18):
So I'm going to ask the first interim question that
isn't on the script.
How long did it take you?
16 weeks.
Doug (04:23):
I had.
Yeah, well, it's funny, I madethe decision to write it May 1.
I had the outline and the nameof the book in 15 minutes, but
it took me 16 weeks.
I spent the entire summer Lastsummer.
I worked harder last summerthan I think I've worked in 20
years.
I would write six or sevenhours a day edit, rewrite.
But yeah, I wrote it in 16weeks.
Rich (04:41):
Well, I have a feeling when we ask you what advice
you're going to give to thoseout there Don't write a book,
don't write a book.
Don't write a book, all right.
So when you were in the processof getting rejected from 11
schools, did you see this asyour career path or did you have
a completely different-?
Doug (04:57):
Oh no, I wanted to be Bud Fox For anybody who's my age.
You saw Wall Street.
You wanted to be the nextGordon Gekko, Bud Fox, and then
I realized that very quicklythat my DNA was more adept for
something that was a little bitmore art and science than pure
numbers.
I use a lot of analyticalskills in what I do now, but I
(05:18):
very quickly realized I didn'twant to be a fixed income trader
.
Then I went to graduate schoolright after I graduated
undergrad, on Sundayno-transcript.
Gautham (05:55):
Gw is an amazing place.
How did you deal with it?
What's the secret for people tomanage?
Doug (06:01):
that moving forward.
So I remember I was on springbreak in high school with my
best friend who went to adifferent high school and every
school I got rejected from hehappened to get into.
We were at his grandparents'house in Florida, we were in
Boca, spending spring break inBoca, and every day my parents
would call me and give me anupdate.
It was a punch in the face.
I remember listening to my momjust so disappointed that I blew
(06:24):
it Because some of theseschools I was on the edge of
being accepted and I blew it.
I just didn't put the effort inmy second semester, junior year
, and I just absolutely blew it.
I was waitlisted, my number onechoice.
I was waitlisted when I appliedearly and they specifically
(06:46):
told me that I had to get onegrade up one and I was going to
get in and I didn't do it.
I didn't do it.
I had nobody to blame butmyself.
That kind of intellectual chipon my shoulder has stayed with
me my entire career.
I am not somebody who has beenlucky.
I believe in luck, but I justdon't have it.
I've worked my ass off.
I try to work harder andsmarter than everybody and that
doesn't mean that I'm smarterthan everybody, but I try to
pride myself on working harderand smarter than everybody.
(07:08):
I will never be outworked and Itry to not be out thought I
care so much about what I do.
Now it's such a big part of whoI am because I know what it's
like to not get and it sucks.
And as a parent, my daughter's ajunior in high school and I'm
going through the same thingwith her.
She's brilliant.
I tell her every day.
I'm like don't blow it, don'tblow it.
(07:29):
I know you want to go out, juststudy for an extra hour and
then go out, prioritize.
Don't make the mistakes I made.
I turned out okay, I guess, butI could have had it so much
easier I could have.
There's so many things I couldhave done and even in my career
I've made horrific mistakes, butI've tried to not make the same
(07:51):
mistake twice.
Rich (07:52):
But I don't want to start with a failure before going to
accomplishments.
But is there a failure that youhad that sticks out, that you
learned Professionally?
Doug (08:11):
100% when I went to.
So I was at Avon, so you'retalking to one of the few guys
that was an Avon lady.
You know, insert side jokesthere, I can still sell the shit
out of a lip gloss.
So all of you that are watchingmy daughter is really freaked
out when I take her to Sephoraand I her watching my daughter
is really freaked out when Itake her to Sephora and I'm like
you know you should look atthat shade.
I can also fit a bra.
(08:31):
I've never done with her, butto know that I can freaks her
out, that alone was worth it.
I was very fortunate when I wentto Avon in that the work that I
did in creating an entire newbusiness for the company
generated a significant amountof attention.
Not only did the plan that Ideveloped win Women's Wear Daily
Best Executed Launch StrategyAward, but I was awarded by
Brand Week as marketer of thenext generation.
And then, for the first time inmy career, I actually had luck.
(08:54):
That shone upon me and Istarted to get recruited by
companies like the Centerfielderfor the Yankees and Victoria's
Secret recruited me like theCenterfielder for the Yankees.
They threw a ton of money at meprivate jets.
I didn't have to relocate, Icould commute via the private G5
that they had at Teterboro, etcetera, et cetera.
It was the best, worst decisionI ever made.
(09:14):
I spent a little less than twoyears there, completely flamed
out, because I did not read thetea leaves on what the culture
of the company was.
You guys have all read countlessstories about what it was to
work at Limited and I will tellyou.
They're all true.
I ended up spending three daysa week going back and forth to
Ohio, even though we were basedin New York.
My entire team was really inOhio.
(09:35):
I wasn't going to relocate.
My wife and I were trying toget pregnant at the time.
It was just a culturally wrongfit.
It was working for a companywhere nobody's opinion mattered
other than the founder, and itdidn't matter how much time or
money or thought or strategy.
He wanted something purple.
It became purple and everythingstopped and it was just such a
toxic environment for me that,um, I left and it it sort of
(10:01):
stuttered my career a bit andthen I got myself back on my
feet and, you know, had somesuccesses.
But, yes, they paid for myapartment in Manhattan, but it
was, um, it was.
I always wonder what would havehappened if I had stayed at
Avon and been a little bit moreloyal.
The lesson are a guru from anintegrated brand perspective.
Rich (10:29):
How do you think consumer behavior has changed over the
course of your career.
Doug (10:34):
I think brands have started to need to appreciate
and that's part of the reasonwhy I wrote the book that they
are in the business now ofbuilding relationships with
their consumers.
You read textbooks.
What is the purpose ofmarketing?
And oh, marketing's blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
Marketing's job, full stop, isto motivate the consumer to do
what you want them to do whenyou want them to do it.
(10:55):
But that's not selling product,that's about consumer behavior
and that has taken brandsdecades to appreciate.
No-transcript.
(11:33):
I think that has changedradically and now more than ever
, with this push ofpersonalization and being able
to get not 52 flavors of icecream but 152 flavors, brands
have to work even harder tocultivate a connection.
Rich (11:47):
A couple of examples of brands or retailers that you
think are doing it well or ontheir way right now.
Doug (11:51):
I got to tell you I love what Marriott's doing.
I think what they've done withtheir Bonvoy program is
spectacular.
The hotel business wasdecimated during COVID but they
pivoted so smartly they madetheir loyalty program really a
loyalty program and the valuecreation that it gives you if
you're a frequent member ispretty amazing.
Something incredibly small likebeing able to check out of your
(12:13):
room at two o'clock, not 11 am,is a really big, freaking deal
For me.
Being able to check out at fourbecause of the status that I
have on Marriott's program iseven better.
That means I can do a day, runback to my hotel room, grab my
bags and go as an example.
Or when I'm with my family andit's a late night flight, we're
not spending the entire day atthe pool in our travel clothes.
(12:34):
Things like that are such smallwins.
A complimentary upgrade to abigger room, even if it's for
one night, you don't really care.
I'm the king of.
Hey, let's upgrade you to thepresidential suite and you're
only in town for 24 hours.
I I can't even tell you howmany overnight flights where I
get to the hotel at 11 o'clockI've gotten upgraded to like the
super mcgillis suite and I'mlike there's six bathrooms in
(12:55):
here so I got to use every towelin the entire entire room.
I don't feel good if I don't, soI'll take a shower in one, a
bath in the other, just to beable to experience it, and then,
when, when I need it, it's like, oh well, it's not available.
But I think Marriott and theirBon Voyage program is a great,
great example, I think.
Another good example Delta,another service provider that I
(13:15):
use religiously the lack ofchange fees, the lack of drama
that exists now versus whathappened pre-COVID.
I think they've just gottenbetter and smarter and realized
that consumer loyalty is aprivilege, not a right.
So those are a couple that Ithink, just off the top of my
head.
Gautham (13:30):
Doug, can I double click on a point that you made
that resonated a lot with me,which was the point of
connections right In a worldwhere we have increasingly
proliferate product choices,where attention span lasts 15
seconds at best and wherecompetition and price and other
levers happens, how do brandsstay connected?
Doug (13:53):
Oh my God, that is such a softball question, and I
appreciate it, and I'll tell you.
There's an entire chapter inthe book that talks about the
brand value equation.
But at the essence of the book,and at the essence of what I am
as a leader and who I am as amarketer, it is the notion of
what I call thinking human, andthinking human comes down to a
simple principle, and it is thisIf you treat every customer as
(14:16):
if they were your only customer,what would your entire business
model look like, from customerservice to refund and warranty,
to product curation, to CRM, torefund and warranty, to product
curation to CRM?
The challenge businesses havetoday is they get too big and
they forget the fundamentals.
And when you see brands thatonce were thought to be
(14:36):
untouchable, all of a sudden andlook, we're dealing with it
right now Apple just launched anew commercial for their iPad,
unbelievably tone deaf.
Great strategy behind it thatthis iPad does all of this stuff
, but instead of talking aboutit as a value creation, what
they did is they basically saidyou don't need all this crap,
you have this.
They flipped it on the negativeas opposed to the positive, and
(14:58):
consumers are not happy.
Think about what's happenedwith the backlash to even brands
like Amazon with Prime and thedrama that's happening there.
Not just Prime, the shipping,but Prime the video content
sharing passwords, et cetera.
That's happening at Netflix aswell.
Brands that were untouchableare now starting to come back
(15:20):
down to earth when they forgetto treat every customer as if
they were your only customer.
Rich (15:25):
What I love about what you're saying is that you're
mixing in innovation with whatI'll call just common sense
customer service and taking careof someone as a Bonvoy customer
.
One of the and it's a subtleinnovation that I like is the
ability to chat.
I don't have to call, I don'thave to go down to the front
desk, I can just send a chat tothe front desk and ask for
(15:47):
something.
If you think about it from aretail, from a marketing, from a
brand perspective, whatinnovation stands out for you
and I'm going to give you thepart two to that what do you
hope gets innovated in the next10 years?
Doug (15:59):
I think what innovation stands out for me is the
suggestions that come when youfill your cart.
I'm thinking mainly e-commerceFor those that do it well.
They do it really really well,and most of those are like micro
brands, brands that start onInstagram or that don't have
huge marketing budgets.
Their suggested add-onsfeatures seem to be really good.
Like, the algorithm seems to bereally sharp.
(16:21):
Where I am hoping there isimprovement, ironically, is in
things like CRM.
I'll buy my wife jewelry andI'll get an email that says dear
Doug, I hope you're enjoyingthe earrings and necklace you
bought.
I didn't buy it, genius.
I bought it for her.
You should be able to discernit.
It should be a code that it wasa gift.
If I had the thing gift wrapped, which I did, you should be
(16:43):
able to flag that in your CRMsystem.
When you get emails from thecompany that are saying, hey, I
hope you're enjoying versus hey,I hope the person you bought it
for is enjoying.
To me that's a huge myth,because I can't even tell you
how many unsubscribes that I dofor just stuff.
I'm not interested.
I'm simply not interested, andit annoys me because email has
become such an intrusive part ofour life.
(17:03):
Even as we're talking right now, I'm getting like 30 emails pop
up on my phone and most of themare spam.
We have gone so much to thesimple, easy and forgotten the
humanity of what we do.
Work a little harder.
Appreciate that somebody gaveyou their contact information.
Don't be a jackass.
Take a couple minutes andreally think about what you're
doing.
Sorry, kids, Don't mean to usesaucy language, but I'm
(17:24):
passionate.
Rich (17:25):
No, that's okay.
They love that.
It's a good thing, All right.
So let's pivot a little bittowards those that are going to
take over for you at some point.
Thanks for that, Richard.
I got two kids Well.
Thanks, Matt.
Yeah, I know I didn't mean todo that to you, but I'm facing
that myself.
But I know you've had mentorsand advisors along the way.
Is there one in particular thatcomes to mind and a piece of
(17:48):
advice that you've held on to?
Doug (17:49):
Yeah, I mean, I have been very fortunate and you're going
to laugh when I finish thesentence to work for some pretty
shitty people.
I have learned so much frompeople that I have worked for
that I didn't respect.
I have also been blessed towork for.
Amazing.
One I write about in my book wasmy partner and co-founding,
g-wiz, and her name is Barb.
(18:11):
She, very early on in mydevelopment, realized that I had
something, but I needed thatsomething to be refined.
And do I think it's fullyrefined today?
No, but she gave me enough ropeto climb, and just enough rope
to start to choke myself outwithout fully doing the deed.
The lesson for me there wasabout perspective.
(18:34):
She taught me perspective.
She helped me understand whatsuccess really looked like, and
it wasn't always when we won theaccount on the agency side.
Success could be aboutconnecting with somebody.
Success could be about how.
She really helped me understandthat the how was as important
as the what design.
Success could be aboutconnecting with somebody.
Success could be about how.
She really helped me understandthat the how was as important
(18:54):
as the what.
On the other hand, I worked forsomebody and I won't give the
company because it'll identifywho the person is who had the
audacity to stand in front ofthousands of people and take
credit for my work.
I was sitting in the audiencewatching this person present my
work.
This wasn't even like it was ateam effort this was my work and
take credit for it and didn'thave even the mindset to
(19:16):
recognize me from the stage.
I was devastated, devastated,and it was at that point that I
made the decision that I was notgoing to work for that person
much longer.
Paula (19:25):
How did you deal with that situation?
I know you just talked throughit.
You can talk through it again,as if you didn't explain it.
Doug (19:31):
Not my finest moment.
I actually broke down and criedin my seat in the audience
watching and I had to leave theauditorium and collect myself,
and it took me a good 24 hoursbefore I could say what I needed
to say, and I tried to say itcalmly, but even as I tell the
story now I get just so angryit's.
One of my biggest pet peeves iswhen people stand up and take
credit for other people's work.
The true mark of a leader ishow you celebrate the people
(19:52):
that help you become a leader,not when you stand up and you
tell everyone that you did it.
You have an obligation as aleader to lead, but if you don't
lead the right way, people willnot follow, and I think at some
point you have to advocate foryourself as a human being.
That's why I really try to pridemyself on always having the
best intent.
I may not have the bestdelivery, I may not always do it
(20:13):
the right way or say it theright way, but what I can say
without reservation orhesitation is that my intent is
always well known, which is Iwant to help.
I don't talk unless I think Ihave the right thing to say or I
can make a meaningfulcontribution.
But like anybody, I want to betold I'm doing a great job, just
like the next person.
(20:33):
It doesn't change.
There's a reason why presidentslive and die by approval polls.
They stand up and say I don'tlook at polls.
Of course you do.
Of course you do.
Validation is a big part oflife.
Rich (20:43):
It's also a big part of leadership.
So what advice do you give tosomebody in that situation,
someone who is coming up throughthe ranks and feels that they
didn't get the recognition basedon how you felt in?
Doug (20:55):
that situation.
So you give advice that youprobably won't take yourself,
which is why it's called advice,right?
If it's not, it would probablybe called decisions, but it's
called advice.
I think you have to askyourself is the juice worth the
squeeze?
You just learned somethingincredibly valuable about that
person.
Let it shape the way you behavearound that person.
Going forward, however,insanity is doing the same exact
(21:18):
thing over and over andexpecting a different response.
There comes a point where youhave to put on your big boy
pants or big girl pants, and yougot to step up to the plate and
be like no, not more.
Own your space, don't expectsomeone to hand it to you.
Take your development in yourown hands, take your growth in
your own hands, take yourself-worth in your own hands,
(21:39):
but not everything in life is acatastrophe.
You got to be mindful.
How you allow people to treatyou says more about you than it
does about them?
Rich (21:48):
Fair point, all right.
So I have two more questionsbefore we go to a rapid fire.
And I'm actually debating, andGotham and Paula may jump in,
but I'm debating what order Iwant to ask them in, so I'm just
going to shoot.
What do you think is the mostunderrated skill set today?
Or undervalued the size of us?
Now see, I love the fact thatyou said that one word answer.
(22:09):
You paused, it was decisive andit was awesome.
What do you enjoy most aboutwhat you do?
What do you really love.
Doug (22:17):
I love that I get to make a difference, not as a CBO, not
as a CMO, not as a head ofmarketing, but as a human being.
I can look at the businessesand brands that I've been a part
of and I can show you where myfingerprints are on them, and
that is really cool, Awesome.
Rich (22:33):
All right, paula Gotham.
Anything else before I headinto a rapid fire.
Gautham (22:36):
Let me ask you a question, doug, if you don't
mind entertaining me, somethingthat another point that stood
out was you.
When you talk about beingflamed out in your best, worst
decision and you talk about andI'm talking with students for
the past 12, 15 years it'salmost always the first factor
that they look to when theydecide which company to work for
(22:58):
.
At the same time, knowing theculture from outside in is
difficult.
So how would someone who's newto this environment navigate,
figuring out what are thesignals that they can draw.
Doug (23:10):
Oh, it's such a great question, and if you only had a
crystal ball and you couldreally get a sense of you.
Don't get a sense of cultureuntil you actually experience it
right.
It's like you don't know howgood something actually tastes
until you taste it.
I think how you're treated inthe interview process says a lot
.
Does the person interviewingyou use your first name?
Are they on time?
Do they ask you about you?
Do they listen?
(23:32):
Are they receptive to yourquestions?
You get a sense of culturethere.
You get a sense of culture notjust of the culture, not just
about how your boss treats you,but how your boss's boss
understands you.
Does he, she or they take thetime to get to know you as a
person?
One of the things that I pridemyself on and I am really
focused on it is I'm a real-timefeedback leader.
(23:53):
If you're in a meeting with meand it goes well, I'm going to
send you a note and be, like you, crushed it.
Rich (23:57):
So sometimes for managers, giving feedback when somebody's
done something positive isthat's the fun part, that's the
easy part.
What about when somebody hasdisappointed you or they haven't
done as good of a job?
What are you doing then?
Doug (24:11):
I had a meeting yesterday with one of my direct reports
and he sent me a note after themeeting say hey, you know I'm
sorry, I know I was in themeeting, I was a little
confrontational but you know Ithink your vision's great and
you know I hope I didn't rub youthe wrong way.
And my note to him back was youactually came across really
negative and not solutionsfocused.
And while I love a good debate,at some point understand that
(24:33):
there's a lot of fun in figuringout how to do something versus
spending the time talking to us,talking to me, about what can't
be done.
And he's like I appreciate thefeedback, I take it to heart.
He may not be pleased with whatI said, but it's how I felt.
I would much rather do thatthan six months from now and be
like remember that meeting wehad in April or May.
You were a real jerk who wantsto hear that.
(24:54):
It's ridiculous.
I think things like that.
And is your leader?
Does your leader have a degreeof self-deprecation?
I make more fun of myself infront of my team than probably
anybody else.
You're not making fun of thepeople.
You're having fun with thepeople and you got to be careful
, but you also have to know thatyou have the cultural
permission, and the way you havethe cultural permission is to
start with you.
(25:14):
My life is like a terriblesitcom.
I'm a husband and married 21years.
I have two kids a daughterwho's 16, my son's 14.
I have two dogs.
I never thought I'd be the guywho has two dogs, but we just
rescued a dog, so we have twodogs.
My life is is is on.
Any given weekend is a completetrain smash, going from travel
baseball to my personal tennisto driving my daughter doing
(25:35):
driving lessons.
And if you can't laugh at that,if you can't have fun with that
and share that with your team,you lower the wall.
Yes, I'm not worried that theydon't respect.
I ensure that that exists.
They don't.
I don't want them to fear meand I want them to like me.
I'd much rather be respectedthan liked, but it's kind of
nice to be both All right.
Rich (25:53):
So rapid fire.
First sports or concertexperience that you remember
Concert experience.
Doug (26:00):
Jones Beach I was 16 years old.
There was a girl I really likedwhose mom happened to be a DJ
at one of the local stations,and we went to see Chicago at
Jones Beach and it was the firsttime that my parents let me
drive on the Long IslandExpressway.
I was terrified and this was aworld before Waze or MapQuest.
(26:23):
So it was printed outhandwritten directions and God
forbid, because like most men, Idon't have a sense of direction
If I missed the wrong exit Iwould have ended up, guy,
probably in Montauk.
But yeah, I remember thatvividly.
Rich (26:35):
Do you have a and we debated this one yesterday but
do you have a walk-on song or doyou have a?
Doug (26:41):
favorite, oh yeah, the walk-on song, the Imperial Death
March from Star Wars.
I love it, love it, I love it,I love it, I love it.
It just takes you know what, asa chief brand officer in
franchise Businesses, you justhave to own it.
Rich (26:57):
So just own it.
If you could automate one partOf your life, what would it be?
Doug (27:02):
Automate one part of my life.
What would it be?
Oh easy, the morning andevening walks with the dogs I
start.
Any leader who ever thinksthey're too big for their
britches have dogs.
You start your morning pickingup shit and you end your night
picking up shit.
So if I could automate thosetwo things, let me tell you I
have made more deals with theman above on a rainy night for
(27:25):
my dogs go to the bathroom.
I think I've sold my soul toMephistopheles like 20 times
over for this little 20 pounddog to please just go to the
bathroom.
I think I've sold my soul toMephistopheles like 20 times
over for this little 20 pounddog to please just go to the
bathroom so that I can go insideand get dry or go to sleep.
Love it.
Rich (27:37):
All right, I'm going to try one more Favorite comfort
food.
Tough day at the office.
What's the one thing that youwant?
Doug (27:44):
I happen to like a really good chocolate chip, a really
really good chocolate chip.
But it can't be fresh, it's gotto be like one or two days old.
So it's like crunchy on theoutside, still a little bit soft
on the inside, but like a goodlike diner, like east coast
diner.
Chocolate chip cookie is prettydamn good I'm gonna ask you a
question.
Gautham (28:03):
I heard you say a private tennis, so it looks
sounds like you're a tennis.
Doug (28:07):
I am, I am.
I play what's your favorite umI love.
I love tennis myself so who?
Gautham (28:10):
you're a tennis player?
I am, I am, I play, I lovetennis myself.
So who's your favorite tennisplayer that you would like to do
?
Oh yeah, nick, kyrgios, nick.
Doug (28:18):
Kyrgios.
I don't even have to thinktwice about it, really, I don't
even have to think twice aboutit.
I had the privilege of workingwith Billie Jean King for a
couple of years when I was atPearl.
But, nick, if I could, if Icould spend a weekend with him
not only just hitting on theboard, nick, cause he's, he's
nuts, he is just certifiablynuts, but he is probably the
(28:43):
most naturally gifted tennisplayer I've ever seen.
And to understand his mindset,um, I had the pleasure of
watching him play live Wow.
I had the pleasure of watchinghim play live Wow.
I could do what he doesPhenomenal.
Gautham (28:54):
I'll agree with that.
Rich (28:56):
That's a great way to wrap it up.
All right, doug.
I want to thank you foragreeing to come on to Retail
Relates today.
Absolutely fantastic.
When we were first gettingtogether and making a list of
guests that we wanted to kick usoff, you were right at the top
of the list and now I know why.
Hey, I appreciate you andappreciate all the love.
Doug (29:16):
I wish you, I wish your students most importantly.
I have one parting piece ofadvice for you Stop worrying
about the right way.
There is no such thing as aright way.
There's no such thing as awrong way.
It's a way.
Figure out a way and enjoy it.
Stop worrying about being wrong.
Gautham (29:34):
I mean again.
That probably wraps up our weekguys.
Doug (29:42):
Guys, it was great seeing you.
Thank you so much for your time.
Rich (29:44):
I appreciate it.
I don't know that I can matchthe energy that we just
witnessed for the last 40minutes 35 minutes so I'm going
to catch my breath and let youguys comment what you absorbed
from Doug.
Paula (29:57):
One word answers decisiveness.
So that's the only way I'mtalking now, only because I
really like it and I think it'sefficient.
So thank you, doug, I feelinspired.
Gautham (30:08):
What stood out to me was the initial part of the
conversation actually right.
So when he talked about how hissetbacks not getting admitted
into the top schools actuallylit a fire and propelled him to
newer heights, I think that'svery important right.
Like many a time, I never gotinto my first option, but it's
(30:28):
how you deal with thesecircumstances that actually
matters, and it was.
It was good to hear him speakabout that in such a passionate
way and, man, if I can matchthat energy of his, if I can
bring that to my classroom foreven 15 minutes, I'll be a rock
star.
Paula (30:42):
I think Doug is a clear example of someone that can use
his emotions to his advantageand has learned how to master
them to an extent that it isadvantageous.
It's a value add.
Rich (30:53):
I think and this is something I've actually learned
from my daughter there's a levelof realness when it comes to
that in that, as leaders,sometimes people want to see you
and they want to follow you,but that there are times where
you can express a degree ofvulnerability, like Doug did in
that situation, and I think youcan learn as much from that as
you do from anything else.
Gautham (31:14):
I'll take it a little bit differently, in the sense
that I thought it was more aboutbeing authentic to who.
You are right, and the way Isaw it was that that's him Like.
In his years of experience hehas discovered that that's him
and he is just owning that spaceand for me that was the biggest
(31:35):
thing right, and it's been astruggle for me to really be
authentic to myself and it'sonly been recently that I got to
that stage, so it was reallynice to see somebody saying like
, yeah, it's okay.
Rich (31:39):
It was interesting because he was making the point about
getting to know him as acustomer and the gift that he
bought for his wife.
And shouldn't you know that?
I was envisioning how much AIor technology is going to end up
learning about you and at whatpoint does it become too much.
But I think he simplified itand said look, if you saw that I
(31:59):
gift wrap it and it wasn't forme, that should be enough for at
least you to recognize that itwas a gift, and don't ask me how
I'm enjoying it, and show methat you care.
Gautham (32:10):
I will say that when Doug talked about brands, what
is the secret for brands to havelongevity?
That contact with the customer,staying true to the customer,
respecting the customer.
It's a very, very, very simpleconcept, but at the same time it
is the essence of marketing.
(32:31):
And when today we have aproliferation of options and
technology doing a lot of ourjobs, how do we stay in touch?
A simple enough idea, butgetting more and more
complicated.
Paula (32:42):
That was good.
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