October 29, 2025 • 52 mins
What makes a store truly memorable - and why do some spaces feel alive while others feel transactional?
In this episode of Retail Relates, we have a conversation with Elisa Servais, a retail design expert, researcher, and consultant whose journey has taken her from Shanghai, London, and Brussels. Elisa’s work bridges academia and practice, exploring what makes in-store experiences valuable and how design can foster empathy, connection, and inclusion.
She shares how cultural awareness shapes global retail, why copying trends comes at the cost of essence, and how AI can enhance - not replace - human creativity. From luxury houses like Hermès to Belgian icons like Maison Dandoy, Elisa explains how the best retail environments blend local authenticity with global coherence.
It’s a conversation about creativity, purpose, and the human side of commerce - where design becomes a language of empathy.
About Elisa Servais:
Elisa Servais is a retail design expert, educator, and researcher whose work bridges practice and academia across three continents. Trained as an interior architect, Elisa began her career at Levi Strauss & Co., where she discovered her passion for retail design and the ways space can influence human behavior. Over more than a decade, she has worked in Shanghai, London, and Brussels, contributing to projects that range from global rollouts and flagship stores to mixed-use developments and city revitalization initiatives. Her design experience spans industries including fashion, food, and beauty—each reinforcing her belief that meaningful design begins with empathy and a deep understanding of people.
Elisa earned her PhD in Retail Design from Hasselt University, one of the few programs worldwide dedicated to this discipline. Her doctoral research, The Value of Experiential Retail Environments, explored how in-store experiences create value for both customers and brands—and how designers can better craft them. Today, through her Brussels-based consultancy, Elisa combines her academic rigor with real-world insight, helping companies and educators adopt a more strategic, inclusive, and human-centered approach to retail design. Recognized for her cross-cultural expertise and thoughtful perspective, she continues to advocate for a retail future where design, strategy, and emotion work hand in hand to connect people and place.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rich H (00:46):
What happens when a designer turns research into
empathy?
For Elisa Servais, retaildesign isn't about decorating
spaces, it's about creatingenvironments that connect
people, cultures, and emotions.
Hi, I'm Rachani Ball, and I'mjoined today by co-hosts Judy
Sedjini and Guy Courtin for aconversation that spans
continents, creativity, andcuriosity. Elisa's journey has
(01:06):
taken her from Brussels, toShanghai, to London and back
again, working with globalbrands like Levi Strauss and
Company before earning her PhDin retail design and teaching
one of the only programs of itskind at Hasselt University in
Belgium.
In practice, she's deliveredeverything from shop and shops
to rollout programs to flagshipconcepts and city center
rejuvenations across food,fashion, and beauty.
(01:28):
In academia, her doctoral workcentered on the value of
experiential retail and producedpractical frameworks and how-to
tools that designers andretailers apply on the ground.
Today, through herBrussels-based consultancy, she
blends design thinking,behavioral research, and brand
strategy to help brands take amore strategy-driven,
omnichannel, collaborative, andinclusive approach to retail
(01:51):
design.
She approaches every projectwith two essential questions in
focus.
What makes an in-storeexperience valuable and how can
we design it?
In this episode, Alisa shareslessons on adaptability,
empathy, and what she calls thecost of essence, the risk
retailers take when they chasetrends instead of staying true
to who they are.
She reminds us that designisn't just about how a space
(02:14):
looks, it's about how it feelsand how it connects people to
purpose.
From Shanghai skylines toBelgian biscuit boutiques, Alisa
helps us to see retail designas a mirror of human behavior
and a tool for reconnection inan increasingly digital world.
Stay tuned for a conversationthat blends art, analysis, and
authenticity and explores howgreat design doesn't just shape
(02:36):
space, it shapes experience.
So let's get started with thisepisode of Retail Relates, an
exciting uh lineup today andtopic.
I'm joined by our co-host,Judy, of course a star student
and graduate of George Mason,and Guy Cortan, who is the
(02:57):
'chatter in chief', I guess.
That title is a new one, and Ikind of like it.
How are you guys doing today?
Guy C (03:03):
Doing good, Rich.
Rich H (03:04):
How are you guys doing?
Judy, what time is it overwhere you are?
Judy S (03:07):
It's 4 p.m.
right now.
Rich H (03:09):
And I'm gonna introduce uh our guest today,
Elisa Servais who we just readher bio.
Terrific background.
Elisa and I have had uh manyconversations via via WhatsApp
and LinkedIn.
Elisa, where where is it?
Uh what time is it where youare?
Elisa S (03:23):
Well, I'm in I'm on holiday at the seaside in
Calais, in France, so it's threeo'clock here.
Rich H (03:28):
Well, that's one of the beauties to podcasting and to
being able to connect virtually,if not in person.
So let's get started with thisuh with this episode.
I'm excited for this topic.
You have a very impressivebackground, a very unique
background.
What we want to get startedwith is a question that we ask
of all of our guests.
We'd like you to start withsharing three pivotal moments.
(03:52):
It can be personal orprofessional, that shaped your
path and brought you to whereyou are today.
Elisa S (03:58):
Well, I think the first one would be that I uh moved
with my family to the UnitedStates when I was uh a teenager,
13, I believe.
Um, and that was the first uhinternational experience at a
very young age, and that helpedto reinforce some of my natural
traits like curiosity andopen-mindedness that was already
(04:19):
there, but I think having toadapt to a new country at that
young age really helped.
Um, but I think it also helpedme develop essential skills that
maybe weren't so natural.
I had to learn to be veryflexible, to be very adaptable,
and that has helped me immenselyin my in my career.
And it also was a great way forme to discover people watching
(04:42):
and cultural watching, liketrying to understand cultural
differences.
Okay, I'm from Belgium, they'reAmericans.
I lived in a very internationalcity, so it was also okay,
well, they're from there, andthat's how they do things.
Um, and that's also been like agreat tool in my career.
That would be the first one, Ithink.
Uh, second pivotal moment wasmy first job, which was working
(05:04):
for Levi Straussenko.
And so for the little story,I'm trained as an interior
architect.
Um, there's not a lot of retaildesign education in the world.
This is a topic which Istrongly advocate is for more
retail design education becausemost um retail designers end up
being trained as interiorarchitects uh with no marketing
(05:24):
training whatsoever.
So um either you're gonna loveit or you're gonna hate it.
Uh obviously, uh Levi's was myintroduction to uh the retail
world and marketing, andobviously I loved it, I'm still
here, but it was a beautiful wayfor me to grasp this idea of a
brand as a person, a brand withpersonality traits, with values,
(05:47):
and how like a collective ofpeople comes together to bring
that idea or that person alive,and I just thought this is so
beautiful.
Like we're all workingcollectively around these shared
values that Levi's has.
And obviously, Levi's hasbeautiful values of you know,
integrity and inclusion, and soobviously, it was a great
(06:08):
introduction to retail, um, andI really loved it, and it's
still here today, as you cansee.
And then the third pivotalmoment would be my PhD, so that
was not planned, that was quiteunexpected, but it really
brought me so much in terms ofgaining a more holistic analytic
and analytical way of thinking.
I I have always been ananalytical thinker, but it just
(06:32):
deepened it because this wholeacademic approach where you have
to first identify a problem oran opportunity, and then you
have to build specific researchquestions that you want
answered.
It really helps to frameeverything.
And I really strongly believethat in the way retail is moving
today, where you can't bedesigning physical stores as you
(06:56):
did before in silo, but youreally need to be designing them
with like this analyticalthinking of where does it enter
in an omnichannel strategy,what's going to be the specific
goal here, you end up havingthis analytical reflection of
what's the problem, what's theopportunity, what am I trying to
answer?
So I really think that in termsof what it brought me, with the
(07:19):
experience that I already hadin practice, and now this way of
thinking that actually is goingin the direction of where
retail is going, it makes mequite a unique profile.
And I'd like to think that ithas armed me for the future of
our practice, if that makessense.
Rich H (07:34):
It does.
Is this what you imagined whenyou were younger that this is
the path you would take?
Elisa S (07:39):
Not at all.
It's really come as a bigsurprise.
Lots of surprises along theway.
I didn't think that I'd bemoving around the world so much.
I didn't think that I uh Ithink the PhD was definitely the
biggest surprise.
And at the same time, it's beena wonderful surprise, I would
say.
Rich H (07:56):
What's a challenge that you have faced in at any point
in your career that you tooksomething away from that has
stayed with you?
Elisa S (08:04):
I've had a lot of personal uh challenges, lots of
things related to family.
Um, I also was diagnosed withrheumatoid arthritis at some
point, which is actually why Iended up doing the PhD, because
I just couldn't necessarilypractice as a retail designer
anymore full-time.
So I was thinking, okay, well,at first I'm gonna look for
(08:26):
teaching, ended up doing a PhD.
So again, it was quiteunexpected and a surprise.
Some of these life decisionsthat impacted my career path
were self-imposed.
I decided, for example, alsothat I wanted to have a child on
my own at one point, and thatobviously also has impact still
today on what I can do and can'tdo professionally.
(08:48):
Um, but the rheumatoidarthritis, for example, they
just kind of landed on me.
And so that I would say was achallenge, but again, it has
taught me adaptability and ithas taught me to pivot.
Okay, so I'm not gonna beworking as a retail designer
full-time.
What do I want to do?
I want to teach.
Here is somebody offering me todo a PhD, and at first I was
(09:10):
like, no way, I can't do that,be on my own for four years in
my head, I'm gonna die.
And then in the end, it endedup being such a great
opportunity, and so I thinkagain, this brings us back to
this idea of open-mindedness umand being open also to
opportunities that come that youdidn't necessarily expect.
(09:30):
And now I look at my plan whereI well, I didn't necessarily
have a plan, but I kind of Ithink like everybody, you have
an idea of where life, what yourlife is gonna be.
You know, I'm gonna be married,have two kids, have a house,
have this wonderful designcareer, I'm gonna be in
magazines.
And now I look at where I amand I think of this plan, and
I'm like, yeah, no, thatwouldn't have actually worked
(09:51):
for me.
So I think there's also thisself-reflection.
Uh, it's it's helped me toself-reflect and to be critical
and to go, you know what?
Actually, the life I have nowis better than the life that I
thought I wanted, if that makessense.
Um, and so challenges actuallyend up helping you grow and
realize your potential andrealize your happiness points,
(10:12):
if that makes sense.
Rich H (10:13):
It makes all the sense in the world.
And actually, with our audiencein general, but definitely the
students that are listening tothis, I would footnote this and
play it over and over againbecause I don't think there's
anybody that's our age, whateverour age happens to be, other
than Judy, who have been througha relatively long career that
(10:35):
have enjoyed it, that this iswhere we imagined we would be.
And if we go back and look atwhat we thought we wanted to be
in the beginning of our journey,we might not have been happy.
We likely wouldn't have beenhappy.
We wound up where we weresupposed to wind up.
Elisa S (10:48):
Exactly.
And I think I would also addthat it's still a challenge
today.
I'm still today dealing withthe challenge of work-life
balance because again, I have afour-year-old, I'm a single mom,
I love my kid to death, but I'mstill have all of these
ambitions.
Um, and it's so it's still achallenge today.
And I think that you have toaccept that life is always kind
of a challenge, and that'sactually what keeps it
(11:09):
interesting is that in yourcareer, you are constantly gonna
have these challenges, and it'sconstantly gonna be growth, and
don't just expect it to settleat one point.
Um, what makes it interestingis the continuous challenges.
Judy S (11:22):
It's really comforting to hear as a newly graduate that
you know there isn't really asolid plan because sometimes I
wish I had, you know, a certainplan with steps that I could do.
It's good to hear that, youknow, life just works out how
it's supposed to.
Elisa S (11:33):
I think, I mean, we'll get to it, I think, in some of
the future questions, which areabout some tips and tricks.
Um, but for me, it's aboutopen-mindedness, flexibility.
Uh, yes, have some thoughts asto the direction you want to go,
but maybe don't be set in thatbecause you might lose out on
opportunities that will actuallyarise that will be better
suited for you.
So it's about having like apath A, but being open to path B
(11:58):
happening and maybe coming backto path A if you realize that
path B doesn't suit you.
Nothing is set in stone,really, basically.
Guy C (12:05):
Yeah, no, at least I I appreciate that because I I
think in what Rich just saidtoo, and and Judy, for your your
sake, like if you had asked thethe 10-year-old guy what he
wanted to do, um, you know,firefighter, policeman was
probably top of the list.
Supply chain was number 175 ona list of 50, right?
So uh, and here I am.
I've been in this for over 25years now, and I love it.
(12:27):
But to your point, Lisa, it itit, you know, like I said, when
I started out after college andgraduate school, I I didn't know
what's supply chain.
I couldn't spell your supplychain, all the letters.
So I I had one question, if Imay to, because I think it's
really interesting for me tohear, you know, sort of your
pivots, and and it's I thinkit's to Judy's point, really
encouraging to hear that you cando that.
But in when you look back onit, I mean that's that took a
(12:48):
lot of courage, right?
To to take a PhD, to toobviously have a child, you
know, all the things you'vedone.
What do you think?
And you mentioned sort of thatfirst experience moving to the
US, like for for folks out therewho are listening, like how do
they know like when is it to getuncomfortable, right?
And how to get out of theirtheir path, right?
Like you said, I got path A,but maybe I should go to path B
(13:09):
or C or D or you know X, Y, Z.
But what do you think it ittakes for someone to do that,
you know, whether they're 22 orwhether they're 62?
Elisa S (13:20):
I think it's definitely easier when you're younger.
So I would definitely encouragepeople in their younger years
to do it.
I think for the simple reasonsthat you don't yet have uh
certain framed life things thatare there, like you don't have a
house yet, you don't have a uhuh maybe a partner yet, you
don't have a kid yet.
So for me, moving to China wasvery simple.
(13:41):
I didn't have any anythingholding me back in a sense.
So it was just when I moved toShanghai, I just moved to
Shanghai and that was it.
And it was just very simple.
There was like, what do I haveto lose?
I'm just gonna go try it.
I don't like it, I come back.
There's nothing, nobody else isgonna be impacted except me.
So I do think at that age, justdo it, just jump.
(14:02):
Um, and that's easier.
It gets harder, obviously, whenyou have uh children, because
there are then consequences onother people than yourself.
That being said, I think it'sall about considering your
entire situation.
Okay, so am I with somebodyelse who can potentially support
me while I try this?
(14:22):
Because I really do need to trythis.
I really would highly recommendpeople to not have regrets.
So if there's something thatyou really want to try, if an
opportunity arises that you kindof want to explore, it's about
seeing the feasibility of it.
So just kind of again,analytical thinking, critical
overall thinking.
What can I afford to do?
(14:44):
But also what do I want to doand long term, will I have
regrets or not?
This opportunity is notsomething that I expected, or
um, this life thing is fallingon my head.
So I think it depends on thesituation.
But for me, for example, therheumatoid arthritis, it just
landed on me, and it then okay,it's not something that I want,
but it's something I have toaccept, and then from there I
(15:06):
can pivot.
The first step in case it'ssomething that lands on you is
about acceptance.
So, okay, this thing justlanded on me, accepting it.
Now, what do I do?
What's the pivot?
Let's explore what do I like todo?
I like to teach.
Boom.
Okay, so I went to seekuniversities and then they told
me PhD.
And then I was like, okay, notnecessarily, but again, the
(15:26):
open, keep the keep the openmind.
Okay, so maybe I will be on myown, and that's not necessarily
something I'm comfortable withat the moment.
But at the same time, I'm doingthe pros and cons.
You know, I'm gonna be on myown, but at the same time, for
four years I'm getting paid toreally dig deep into a topic
that I'm passionate about, andthat when you're in practice,
you don't have time to dig deepinto.
(15:47):
Okay, that actually soundsreally nice.
And at the same time, I get toteach as part of the PhD.
So it's like weighing out, Ithink, the pros and cons, the
feasibility.
And in this case, it was kindof a golden, like when I did the
pros and cons, it just ended upbeing a golden package because
I was getting paid.
So the financial security thatI needed from my family
(16:07):
situation was there.
It was something a bit, yeah,it made me uncomfortable, but at
the same time, I was thinking,well, you try.
And there were like, I alsochecked, you know, like, what am
I getting myself into in thiscase?
Like, what if I fail, or whatif I have to quit in the middle?
Do I have to give the moneyback?
I was reassured that I didn'thave to, you know.
So I mean, I I did my gooddiligence of also checking what
(16:29):
there was to gain versus whatthe risks were.
So it's like risk assessment ina sense.
And I think my advice would bethat a lot of the time we
overestimate risks.
We tend to be thinking toonegatively.
And again, my mind is trustlife.
Something always works out.
It's very rare that things goreally, really, really wrong
when you're well-intentioned.
Rich H (16:50):
So that actually is an interesting pivot because I
wanted to ask (16:53):
you have this intersection between your
academic research and youracademic life and then
re-real-world retail design.
What's a lesson that you'vetaken from your doctoral
research on experiential retailenvironments?
And where do you think brandsand retailers are getting it?
I can phrase it as getting itwrong, or have the opportunity
(17:14):
to improve?
Elisa S (17:15):
For me, there's two big things happening at the moment.
Uh, the first one would be thatI think most retailers are
aware that we need to be in anomni-channel way of working and
thinking, but that in practicethey are still a bit stuck in
their old ways of working, andthat makes sense because you
know, like operation side, ittakes a lot of efforts to make
(17:38):
shifts and changes.
And so, in reality, they knowthey need to have omni-channel
thinking, but in practice theyare still a bit working uh
channels in silo that is notaligned then with what customers
expect.
Customers today they expectseamless experience throughout
all the channels, right?
So they want something.
(17:59):
I'm gonna be on my phone, on myon the on the mobile app of
this uh retailer, and then inthe store, I want something
that's just gonna workseamlessly within that in terms
of communication, in terms ofproduct experience, in terms of
product delivery, etc.
etc.
And at the moment, mostretailers know that that needs
to happen, but implementing itis still a bit difficult.
(18:20):
So there's definitely somethingthere that needs to be moving a
bit faster.
And then the second thing forme is that a lot of retailers
are getting carried away withtrends at the cost of essence,
as I call it.
So there's this call to be thefirst to be or to follow what's
is surfing right now, or youknow, so there's a big call for
(18:42):
digital integration, AI use, etcetera, et cetera.
And I'm not saying that that'swrong, but I think a lot of the
times they're copying whatothers are doing, or they're
just falling into the trap ofwhat a supplier is telling them.
So Walgreens, the fridges, youknow, like a big disaster of
millions of dollars lost becausethey didn't really focus on key
(19:03):
essential questions.
And so for me, if I have onetip for retailers right now,
it's to use the three keyquestions that I use and which
are like very uh strategicthinking based.
Question number one is alwaysdoes it make sense for my brand?
Who am I?
What are my values?
(19:24):
What is my mission statement?
Go back to that.
That's your essence, that's thecore.
Every decision you make shouldbe aligned with who you are as a
brand.
Question number two, does itadd something to my target
customer's experience?
Again, while green fridges thatshow you what's inside of the
fridge, which the glass doorused to do, that doesn't add
(19:45):
anything.
So don't make that mistake.
Question number three (19:47):
what is the role of each specific store
in your overall strategy?
Are we brand building?
Are we selling product?
And in whichever case, whetheryou're selling products or
whether you're trying to buildyour brand, how does what you're
doing in this physical storecomplement what you're already
(20:07):
doing in your other channels?
Because otherwise, people haveno reason to come to this
specific store.
So those for me are the threekey questions that I ask my uh
clients at every single firstmeeting.
If I don't understand who yourbrand is, if I don't understand
who your target customer is, andif I don't understand the
omnichannel strategy and howthis specific store contributes
(20:29):
to it, then I'm not gonna beable to really deliver the most
valuable store experience that Ican.
Guy C (20:35):
That makes a lot of sense.
And I I really appreciate that,Lisa.
And I'd like to dig in a littledeeper on that because I think
what's interesting is what I'mhearing is a lot of your
customers are sort of stuck in,well, stores are stores are
stores.
So I just, you know, put upfour walls and some aisles and a
cash register and put myinventory in there and you know,
stack it high and let it fly,right?
As they said in Seinfeld yearsand years ago.
(20:55):
But obviously, as you've said,you know, retail is obviously
dynamic, it's changing.
There's a whole omnichannel, Idon't even call it omnichannel,
it's just retail, whether I'm onmy phone, my watch, my tablet.
Are you seeing the mature, orare some of your more mature
customers, are they alsounderstanding, like, hey, my
store that's in, you know,downtown Brussels is going to
look very different than mystore in Bruges, and it's gonna
(21:16):
be very different than my storein Lille.
Are they at that level ofsophistication or are they
still, you know, still with yourthree questions sort of stuck?
Can't we get through those yetbefore really being
sophisticated on their view onindividual stores?
Elisa S (21:29):
My own experience of my own clients is that I still
need to work through the basicthree questions.
That being said, I do know ofretailers and even local
retailers that have thatmaturity, and that's why they
don't need my help.
So I'm very happy to also notbe needed, to be honest.
Um, yes, of course, you alwayswant to be needed, but it's nice
(21:52):
to see examples of cases whereyou don't need to be there to
help because people are gettingit so right, and that then
becomes an example for theothers.
So in Belgium, we have aretailer, my favorite retailer
at the moment, because they'regetting it so right on all
levels.
I don't know if you know of thespeculos.
It's a Belgian biscuit.
You guys all know the you youknow the little biscuff, yeah.
Guy C (22:16):
So just just full disclosure, Lisa, my my
grandmother's Belge, so I'm I'mpart Belge myself.
Elisa S (22:22):
There you go.
Guy C (22:22):
So I love speculos.
Elisa S (22:23):
You know speculos.
A lot of people know of uh thelittle red speculos that you
biscuits that you have with yourcoffee in a lot of coffee
shops, uh which are now calledbiscoff, which they used to be
called something else, and allBelgians are going, why did you
change your name?
We don't get it.
But that's another topic.
But, anyways, the one of theoldest houses that make speculos
in Belgium is called Maisond'Andois.
(22:45):
And Maison d'Andois um gets itright on a lot of levels in
terms of their retail strategyoverall.
They've decided to recenter ontheir core values.
So they've really like it's ait's a family business and
they're like their fourthgeneration, I think.
And they really decided to dolike a whole, you can tell
they've done a whole exercise ofrefocusing on their brand
(23:05):
identity.
Who are we?
What are our values?
And right now their values arereally anchored into like
sustainability, localization.
So they've actually used tohave stores in New York, for
example, which they decided toall close down because for them,
again, it doesn't make sense tobe like sending products all
the way across the world.
They prefer to focus on theirlocal market of Belgium, maybe a
(23:27):
little bit France and Holland.
And then every decision thatthey make in terms of even
product collaborations are alldone with like local chefs to
try and do this and do that.
One of my favorite products isactually like a cookie that is
made with 20% food waste becauseit's made from like the apple
uh waste that they make into uha sort of compote, like um uh
(23:48):
you know, like paste, and thenthey put that in the cookie.
And when you eat it, I swearyou you feel like you're eating
apple pie, but in a biscuit.
It's crazy how good it is, andit's got 20% food waste in it.
So, anyways, that's the productside.
But in terms of retail design,what I love is they have tons of
stores in Brussels, not tons,but like at least 10, 12, and
each one is completely uniqueand anchored into the aesthetic
(24:13):
that makes sense for theneighborhood that they're in.
So they have three even in thevicinity of the Grand Place,
which is our main square inBrussels, and each one is
completely like if you enter,you know it's them.
It's like the ASOP, basically.
They're the the biscuit ASOP ofBelgium.
I don't know how to put itbetter, but you know ASOP has
this beautiful retail designformula of like each store looks
(24:36):
completely different in theirdesign, but at the same time you
can identify always that it'sASOP.
I feel the same way aboutDandois.
I walk into each of theirstores, I can tell it's them,
but each store is a completelydifferent universe because
they've anchored it into thelocal context.
So there are beautifulexamples.
Guy C (24:53):
How far do you think retailers should go with this,
right?
Because then there's also thethe theory of, you know, if I go
to McDonald's in New York Cityand then I go to McDonald's in
Johannesburg, I should get thesame Big Mac fries and Coke, and
I sort of the layout shouldfeel this air quote same, right?
So there's sort of that, butthere's some all I know there's
always some likeregionalization, but it's always
(25:15):
it's like or or Starbucks,right?
Hey, Starbucks is Starbucks isStarbucks.
From your sense, you know,especially I I I love your I
your opinion from the designside, you know, for retailers,
where's that line, right?
Do you want to be so it's allstandardized experiences?
Or to your point, which I love,it's like if if I'm in Brussels
and I go to one store to getspeculos and they go to the same
one, but the it's it feels likeit's part of the neighborhood,
(25:37):
like that's part of theexperience.
It's not just the speculos,it's the whole you know, store.
But for some retailers, how doyou see that sort of that that
balancing act?
Elisa S (25:44):
Uh well, first of all, I'd like to say that using a bit
of local anchoring helps boththe locals, uh, but also helps
with the tourists.
Because when then you become abrand fan, you end up wanting to
travel the world to see all ofthe stores because you want to
see how localized it has beenmade.
So again, ASOP is wonderfulwith their target audience of
(26:05):
people who are very retaildesign oriented, because we're
gonna make a point of going toevery single store.
When we know there's a store inthe city, we make a point of
going.
Uh, I'm a fan of Dondois, now Igo and see every single one of
their stores because I want to Iwant to see.
I know that I have somefriends, I know it sounds crazy,
that are friends of Starbucks,and they make a point of seeing
what's unique in this Starbucks.
(26:26):
Uh, what mug can I get here?
So, to answer your question, Ithink for me it's about
understanding what are the coreelements that always need to be
replicated, and understandingthe percentage of flexibility.
And that will vary from brandto brand because it depends on
(26:46):
how big fans your customers are.
So when you're a brand that canhave really fans, you know,
like obsessive fans, then themargin of the percentage of
flexibility that you havelocally can be very big.
So, for example, Nike, they cango really crazy because people
(27:07):
are really brand fans.
So they can keep just like 20%of their core identity and the
fixed, whatever fixed elementsyou decide, whether it's
product-based, retail designbased, whatever.
You keep 20%, you can go 80%crazy locally because people are
so Nike is so well known, it'sso well anchored in terms of
brand identity, and customersare really truly, truly fans.
(27:28):
When you're a brand that's alittle bit more both
convenience, I want to say, andfan-based, like Starbucks is a
little bit in the in between,right?
So, yes, you have fans ofStarbucks, but you also have a
lot of people who abroad go toStarbucks just for the comfort
of I know this brand.
It's not that they're fans, butit's more the reassurance, if
that makes sense.
And there your margin becomes abit smaller because there you
(27:52):
need to make sure that you tapinto that reassurance.
So people are the people whoare looking for the reassurance,
they want to be able to findwhat they are expecting to find.
Otherwise, you're gonnafrustrate them.
Frustration is the worst enemyof retail.
And then you can have that 40or maybe 50% of flexibility
locally for the more fans or theones who want to maybe explore
(28:15):
the locality.
And I think it's a bit of a hitand miss game, to be honest.
And Starbucks is really greatat that.
They just try, and that'sanother tip that I was gonna
share is just try.
I mean, retail is all abouttrying and failing and learning
from your failures and thenbouncing back.
And what I really love withStarbucks is that is that they
do they try things, andsometimes there are retail
(28:36):
design mistakes that I feelthey've made.
Like, for example, a few oftheir locations in Asia, I feel
they went a little bit too far,localizing and losing a bit of
their identity, but that's verypersonal for me.
Like I didn't, I it looked morelike a tea house than
Starbucks, and then I startgoing, well, for the people who
are looking for reassurance,there maybe you went a bit too
far.
Because I don't know that if Iwas entering this, I would feel
(28:58):
comforted that I'm at myStarbucks.
I would feel maybe a bit toofar.
So I do think there are a fewexamples where they went a bit
far, but in most cases they tendto, for me, get it right in
terms of understanding thatbalance.
Guy C (29:11):
Yeah, no, I love I love the the notion of you know how
strong is your brand gives youmore leeway, right?
Because you're absolutelyright.
Like if I'm a Adidas or a Nike,like people knew who I am, so I
can go a little bit moreunique, if I should shall I say,
than if I'm just you know a momand pop, you know, selling
diapers everywhere.
Well, I just want to go in, no,I can buy the diapers and go
(29:33):
out.
So whether I'm in Bangladesh orwherever, it's interesting.
I could picture my head sort ofthe slide.
If it's 20% if I'm a big brand,I could slide it over this way
to have more flexibility.
If I'm not, then I need toslide and your your talk about
convenience, I think, isabsolutely spot on too.
Like if I just want to come inwith 7-Eleven and get my
Slurpee, I want to just come inand get my Slurpee.
I don't need it to be lookinglike the region.
Elisa S (29:53):
Well, for me, again, like the slide if you're going
fashion is gonna be PrimarkNike.
You know, Primark is the theone that you can't change really
locally because people justwant a cheap, you know, whatever
cheapest thing.
No, but it's true.
We just go we go to like notthat I don't shop at Primark.
I will shop at Primark becauseI have a four-year-old who
outgrows things in three months.
And so even though I don'tnecessarily like encourage this
(30:15):
idea of overconsumption, there'sjust also the life reality of
like her pants, you know, break,she grows out of them in three
months.
I don't know.
She has gross birds, okay.
Here I am buying pants again.
It just sometimes makes moresense.
And then I'm sorry, but youjust want to get in, be able to
find your thing immediately, getout, and you don't want to
(30:37):
explore things.
That's not what Primark is forin most cases.
Then you have the other hand,where personally my love brand
is Converse, I'm addicted, andthen.
It's a completely differentuniverse.
You know, like if they build abeautiful store with like they
don't need a lot of codes thatare their own to make me feel
like it's my environment andthat I'm there to enjoy it.
Rich H (30:59):
Well, you said it in the beginning, and um I'm gonna
emphasize it in two ways.
One, that authentic connectionto the customer matters, and one
of the problems that manyretailers have today is copy the
leader.
If you're just following whatyou deem to be best in class,
then everybody's trying to addthis local flavor in, but it's
(31:24):
the ones that have the authenticconnection with the customer,
and it's part of their brandwhere it's going to make sense,
as opposed to where it's forced.
And customers are figuring thatout more and more.
I'll use that to pivot to aquestion.
I'm um surprised it took usthis long in the podcast to ask
the digital and the AI question,but I I have to.
(31:45):
The immersion of digital and AIin retail today in both uh the
the back end and the front line.
How do you think that isimpacting retail and how do you
believe it should?
Elisa S (31:58):
First of all, I'm a strong advocate for embracing
it.
I think it's all aboutaccepting the fact that society
evolves, like we, you know,society has always evolved.
There's always been shifts, andin retail that's the same.
So it's about againunderstanding customer
perspectives.
Okay, what do customers see asthe benefit of digital
(32:21):
integration, technologydevelopments, and AI?
And then from theirperspective, trying to
understand what then that meansfor the role of the physical.
And for me, the question whenpeople ask me, okay, well, what
becomes of the physical store?
Well, again, from thecustomer's perspective, what
does AI do for them and whatdoes it not do for them?
(32:43):
And then you have your answerfor the role of the physical
store.
So it needs to be seen as acomplementary.
Like for me, I think a lot ofpeople still seem to think that
it's like AI or tech versusphysical.
No, they're partners.
Like, why can't we just againhave an holistic view of the
overall strategy and just lookat them as complementary pieces
(33:06):
of a puzzle?
It's about having this overalllike meta-level um perspective,
looking at it from thecustomer's perspective again,
and considering, okay, so we'regonna have AI for this, we're
gonna then that means that thenthe physical store should do
this, and that means that thenthe web shop should do this, you
know what I mean.
Like it's about understandinghow each of the puzzle pieces
(33:30):
can be coherent butcomplementary.
So it's not about beingconsistent.
And for me, at the moment, if Ihad to answer the question as
to what can the physical storeadd to the story, it's clearly
two things it's 360 sensoryexperiences.
So at the moment, technologystill cannot immerse you in a
(33:51):
fully sensory branded universe.
So, in terms of like immersingpeople, customers into your
brand's values, your brand'smission statement, and all of
that, the personality, all ofthe things we've been talking
about, the physical space isstill the best tool to do that.
You can really fully play ontouch, sense, sound, and that
(34:11):
helps people create thestrongest memory in their brain
of your brand.
And then I think the way thatwe're seeing society change, we
see that people, although we'remore connected than ever, people
feel more and moredisconnected, uh, disconnected
from each other, disconnectedfrom the world, but also
disconnected from themselves.
And so I'm seeing a lot ofshifts in physical retailing
(34:33):
that are focusing onreconnection.
So community building is a bigtheme in terms of physical
retailing at the moment.
We see a lot of brands workingon this idea of communities.
And then we're also seeing alot of uh retail places now that
are focusing on reconnecting tothe to the heritage, to the
place.
And the third thing is we'realso seeing a lot of places that
(34:54):
are focusing on mindfulness,self-development.
So reconnecting with myself.
And that again, I don'tnecessarily think that an AI can
do on their own.
They could do it in combinationwith a physical space.
So again, this is where you canyou should be critical of how
can we work together versusseeing each other as in in
(35:15):
competition.
I don't understand this notionof competition.
The idea is just to give peoplethe best experience possible.
How can we do that using allthe tools?
Rich H (35:24):
Well, automation has always been scary.
I you've seen it from a supplychain perspective.
You go to some areas of theworld and start talking about
supply chain automation, and youwill have people that will
worry about jobs.
If you look at it in a certainview, they are correct.
But it can also mean theadvancing of jobs, the advancing
(35:47):
of opportunity.
Guy C (35:48):
Yeah, no, I agree.
And I I think to Lisa's point,I think you're absolutely right.
I I think there's this strangedivide where it's you know, it's
like a zero-sum game whereeither we're digital and AI and
automation or we're old schoolphysical store, where I think
what you said, Lisa makes is iswhere it should be, which is
really it's retail.
So the experience, right?
(36:09):
The the 360 immersiveness, uh,the embracing of things like
different technologies.
To your point, Rich.
You know, I think it's one ofthe things we look at in the
supply chain side with roboticsis that we've had, as you said,
Alisa, communities, you know,society has evolved.
Like that, that that is oneconstant.
Things evolve.
So robots are just there as atool.
Yes, you're gonna lose somejobs, but you're gonna gain
(36:30):
others.
You're gonna lose some thingsfrom the past, but you're gonna
gain new experiences, which, youknow, some might like better
than others, which is great.
And I think that's the partthat's a challenge.
And I think I guess, you know,pivoting to that too, Lisa.
My question to you is when yousee this sort of resistance, do
you think, or are you seeing,are there specific retail
sub-industries that are moreopen to saying we're gonna marry
(36:52):
digital and AI with our overallexperience in the store?
Like Adidas, I'm in Boston.
They had uh a reallyinteresting uh store right by
the marathon, the BostonMarathon, and they married a lot
of digital with the physical.
Back to your earlier pointabout making it local.
Like that store was really allaround the Boston Marathon, the
history and all this, and theyhad all these digital exhibits
(37:13):
you could see.
They had like even a treadmillthat you could actually air
quotes run the marathon route,you know, looking at a screen.
But it was a great example ofdigital, physical, you know,
using some AI.
And to back to your pointearlier, they have great brand
value so they can do this.
But do you see, or are youseeing, are there specific
sub-retailers that are doing abetter job marrying these two?
Elisa S (37:32):
I'm gonna bring it back to my three questions.
I think that what I'm seeing isthat people struggle to answer
these three questions.
Um, and so again, some aregetting it right, but a lot of
people are just going, I need tohave tech.
I need to have digital.
I've seen this great screenagain.
I had I had a meeting not twoweeks ago with a client going, I
saw at rituals that they had ascreen above their till, so I
(37:54):
want to have a screen behind mytill at my store.
And that was the briefingmeeting.
I I mean, I didn't even like Ihadn't even asked questions
about their brand yet.
I hadn't asked questions abouttheir customers yet, and I'm
already being told that I needto put a digital screen behind
the till.
Like, whoa, calm down.
Can we go back to the basics?
Who are you as a brand?
(38:14):
Does it make sense for yourbrand?
Who are your target customers?
Will this bring something totheir experience?
And number three, what is thegoal of this store?
Now let's rethink this idea ofdigital screen.
You want tech integration?
Let's think about how it'sgonna work for what we just
talked about.
Like I see great examples inall sectors and I see bad
examples in all sectors.
(38:35):
I think it's again more aboutthe retailer's ability to be
aware of what's going on, but becritical about how that answers
the three questions.
And I think there are brandsthat really get it right.
Adidas does a great job.
Nike, at the moment, I'm a bitsometimes it's a hit and miss at
the moment, my personalopinion, but I think Adidas is
(38:55):
doing better than Nike at themoment in that regard.
Some of the luxury brands aredoing great.
Like Hermes for me is one ofthe best at being very critical
and being like innovativebecause they're doing things
that only work for them.
So there was this greatactivation around um, there's
like an equestrian event inParis every year that takes
place in the Grand Palais.
(39:16):
And of course, Hermes, hello,that makes sense for them,
right?
That's like, you know, wherethe brand started.
And so, you know, theirbeautiful store in Paris that
has like these beautiful shapesand the coffee shop, blah blah
blah.
Um, in there, they hadinstalled in one of the
beautiful little uh wooden uhlattice modules, they had
installed a trampoline with adigital screen that was mocking,
(39:37):
so you were jumping on thetrampoline and it's mocking you
riding a horse.
Very simple when you thinkabout it, and it is tech
integration, and it's like thiscan only work for her maids.
So for me, this is like aperfect example of how you can
do fidgetal because they'reusing tech for their purpose and
only for something that canwork for them.
(39:58):
Nobody else could have donethis and it would have worked.
Adidas couldn't have done this,you know, like le sauthermes.
They called it le sodermes andit was perfect.
So for me, again, it's aboutlike there are examples out
there of great brands that arereally getting it, you know,
like really being, huh?
Okay, how can we use tech tosell our story and only our
(40:19):
story?
And those for me are the onesthat are getting it so perfectly
right.
And I think as Rich saidbefore, a lot of people tend to
fall into the trap of copycats.
They're doing this, so we'regonna do the same.
But again, as you said, Rich,like people catch on, customers
aren't fooled.
What they want is they want tobe able to connect to your
specific brand.
So be clear on who you areyourself and create something
(40:42):
that is unique to you and thatwill help customers to create
that connection only with you.
Guy C (40:47):
So sorry, I was I was laughing, Elisa, as you told the
story about the digital screen.
So I worked at ForestryResearch in the late 90s, right?
Dot com boom and and quickstory, Colo Gun Water, right?
They here in the United States,they ship water.
And we literally had them comein and tell told us our CEO read
an article in the Wall StreetJournal about Amazon.
So now we want to be likeAmazon and we want to ship water
(41:09):
direct to the consumer.
And we literally looked at themand said, You have to be
kidding me.
It makes zero sense for yourbrand and your logistics.
But they were like, we have allthis money, we're gonna start
shipping water to people.
It failed.
I'll just leave it at that.
No surprise.
Judy S (41:22):
But yeah, exactly.
Going back to what youmentioned about AI and combining
both AI and like the physicalworld, what advice do you have
for those like me who are aboutto enter the um retail industry
that has become so tech-drivenrecently?
How can we leverage um those AItools to stand out?
Elisa S (41:38):
I think again, it's about first of all being
self-reflective.
Uh, it's funny because I had aLinkedIn post a little bit
around this topic.
I got really self-aware becausea customer client, uh retailer
client, came to me again in thebriefing meeting with an AI
image of the store she wanted.
And this was the briefingmeeting.
I knew it was gonna happen.
I knew it was gonna happensomeday.
(41:59):
I should have been prepared,but it still took me a little
bit by surprise.
Because she's a youngentrepreneur, we had uh
negotiated very few hours on heron her scope, uh, with me
focusing only on like a conceptsketch.
So not like a detailed designwhere I would be able myself to
build a 3D.
So I wasn't self-aware of like,can I design just as well as
(42:20):
AI?
I know I can design better thanAI.
I got self-aware about thevisualization because I thought,
okay, well, she came to me witha beautiful AI visual.
I'm gonna come to her with ahand sketch because that's all I
have time and money for interms of our scope.
The lesson I want to share hereis that actually the customer
loved it because she was awareenough, she was able enough to
(42:45):
understand the conceptual ideasthat I was trying to represent
in my sketch.
And actually, funny enough, intoday's day and age, people who
hand sketch are more valued bysome than AI images because AI
images have become a little bittoo common in a way.
So the lesson I got from thisare there's multiple lessons,
but the the main lesson I gotfor myself was me as a creative,
(43:09):
as a as a retail designer, howdo I want to communicate my
ideas?
What is the thing that how whatis my process?
And my personal process is thatI do my analytical research, as
you guys have understood,that's like groundwork.
And then I do my conceptualvisualization, and that for to
do that, I actually stillpersonally like to hand sketch
(43:31):
because I actually design as Isketch and I sketch faster than
I prompt.
That's very personal.
That's just me, that's how Iam.
I I sketch faster, my handworks faster than I talk,
because when I talk, I say toomuch, as you guys may have
already gathered.
Whereas when I sketch, I'mlimited by the speed of my hand.
So that's my personalpreference, and also experience
(43:51):
has taught me that a sketchleaves room for interpretation
in terms of finishes, and so thecustomer tends to focus more on
the big ideas versus if I showthem a finished sketch at the
beginning, they're gonna go, Idon't like that flower pot.
That's not what I'm asking youat this point.
We're not at the finishingstage, we're the conceptual
stage.
Then I move to AI or to like 3Dvisuals for the finishing.
(44:17):
That's my personal process.
And so everybody has theirpersonal process, and I think
that's the first that that's theadvice that I would have for
you is think about yourself.
Does AI again make sense foryou if it helps you in your
process and where in yourprocess it can help you?
I know that for me, AI doesn'tnecessarily it helps me a little
(44:38):
bit in my analysis, but not somuch.
I don't necessarily use it forsketching because I just like to
get my juices flowing, but thenI tend to really need it for
like certain things like colorpalettes, because I do know
that, for example, that's one ofmy weaker points.
I struggle to put colorstogether.
And there, that's where I getdigital tools to help me.
And so it's about understandingyourself and your strength and
(45:00):
understanding where um thosetools can help you on maybe the
things that you feel a bit lesscomfortable with.
Judy S (45:06):
Yeah, that's great advice.
Thank you.
I definitely agree with AI, youknow, backing up your
weaknesses and then with yourown strength.
I think that creates amazingwork.
So thank you for that.
Elisa S (45:14):
Exactly.
I think for me it's the same aswhen you do uh any sort of
teamwork, actually.
It's about understanding thestrengths and weaknesses of the
entire set of tools, whetherthey are human or whether they
are human and tech.
I love teamwork because I thinkteamwork help gets like the
best out of everyone.
So again, don't be so proudthat you can't accept what your
(45:37):
weaknesses are.
Like be smart enough for thesake of the project to
understand this is where I'mgood, this is where I need help,
and then you get whichever helpyou need to work on that.
Rich H (45:49):
It's a good segue into the advice part before we jump
into the rapid fire round.
What do you think in today'sjob market is an underrated
skill?
Elisa S (46:01):
Empathy.
I think, especially in theretail world, it's extremely
important to understandcustomers.
As a retail designer, even moreso.
It's all for me, everything isdesigned around the customer
journey.
And that begins, of course,with again the omnichannel.
So, how did they even come tothe physical store?
So I need to understand whatthey were faced with in terms of
(46:22):
your brand communication beforecoming to the physical store.
And so it's about puttingmyself in the like in that
customer's shoes and looking atthe socials, looking at the
website, and just giving myselfa mission.
Okay, what does this retailersell?
They sell sofas.
Okay, I'm gonna need a sofa.
And then I put myself in thisposition of looking at the
(46:43):
socials, looking at the website,trying to understand what
they're saying about themselves,blah, blah, blah.
And then same in the physicalstore.
So with all my clients, wealways act out a sales scenario.
I always ask them typicalquestions.
Okay, what's the most commonneed that people come to you
for?
What is the typical targetcustomer profile?
And then I literally get asalesperson to act out the
(47:04):
scenario, and I'm acting as thecustomer.
And that again gives me thisopportunity to emphasize, to
really understand uh what workswell, but also what are the pain
points.
And I think that that'ssomething that is a natural
skill.
Some people have it, somepeople don't.
I think it's a skill that youcan, however, learn and develop,
(47:24):
and that I would encouragepeople to dig deep into.
Rich H (47:28):
So this is the part where it's the toughest because
I know that we could go on foranother hour or two and just
have this conversation.
We will have to find anotheropportunity and a topic to bring
you back.
But I am going to ask E you tokick off the rapid fire round.
And at Lisa, it's just thefirst thing that pops into your
head.
Judy, you're next, and then Iwill close up.
Guy C (47:51):
Okay.
I will fully admit I'm gonnamake this on uh on the fly, but
I I you know you talked about alot of different places you
live.
So rapid fire, like where'syour favorite place to live and
why?
Elisa S (48:00):
My favorite in Brussels now, because it has all of the
advantages of all of the otherplaces I've lived, as in like it
has all of the advantages ofcities like London, Shanghai,
for the culture, the food, themix of people.
Um it's actually you know thatit actually is, I think, the top
number one or number two interms of uh being the most
(48:21):
cosmopolite, as we say,cosmopolite uh in the world.
So for me, like I'mcosmopolitan.
Cosmopolitan.
Um, so I've got all of that,but it's human scale.
So I feel like I have all ofthe advantages and I'm still in
a big village.
Judy S (48:36):
If you could travel anywhere in the world just for
24 hours and you didn't have toworry about transport, where
would you go?
I would go back to Shanghai.
Elisa S (48:44):
My daughter is four now, and we haven't been back.
Well, she's never been, and Ilived there for two and a half
years, and I still have a lot offriends there that haven't met
her because obviously China isnot also the easiest to come
from.
So I would really love to goback, and also for retail design
purposes.
Hello, Louis Vuitton ship.
I mean, do we need to talkabout how there's a lot going on
(49:06):
in Shanghai and I would love tosee it.
So both personal andprofessional reasons.
Rich H (49:14):
I'll have to send you a picture of the travel teddy bear
I have getting a custom jacketmade at the South Bund fabric
market.
True story, but that's for adifferent time.
So I'm gonna close with spaceis very important to you, and
I'm gonna take home off thetable because that's a natural
answer.
Where do you go when you justwant to be surrounded with a
(49:37):
great space that you candecompress, that you can think,
that you can be creative?
Elisa S (49:42):
That is not home.
I'm a big cultural buff, and Ifind the moment a lot of
inspiration in exhibitiondesign, especially for retail
design.
So I think because also of therange of what there is, it's a
perfect setting for me,depending on my moods.
If I want to be alone, I can gosee like an exhibition that's
(50:03):
more about, you know,self-reflection or that's only
for an interest that I havemyself.
If I want to spend time with mydaughter or with my friends,
then I can also pick anexhibition right now.
They do a lot of kid-friendlyexhibitions, so I can go and
enjoy that with them.
And also, it's a topic wehaven't touched upon, but that's
really important for me.
Neurodivergence.
So I am gifted and I strugglesometimes with like
(50:26):
overstimulation, which is anissue for me because as a retail
designer, I'm being asked moreand more to design spaces that
are more experiential, so morestimulating.
And I find a lot of inspirationright now in exhibition design
because they have mastered theart of stimulating in waves.
And that's things that I wantto take notes from because I I
(50:48):
really want to bring that moreinto the retail design
practices.
I can see a little bit ofinterest growing, but it's very
slow.
And so I want to educate myselfon that so that I can also help
educate the future generationon it.
Yes, let's build experiencesthat are fully stimulating, but
can we do it in a way that iscomfortable for everybody,
(51:11):
including the one in five of thepopulation that may struggle
with overstimulation?
So for me, exhibition, likegoing to exhibitions, it's
really the perfect combo offinding creativity for my work,
finding that mindfulness momentfor me, and finding the
connection with the people Ilove.
Rich H (51:28):
Love that answer.
And that's actually a goodtopic to bring you back forward,
maybe have a panel.
Lisa, it was an absolutepleasure having the conversation
with you.
Judy, Gee, pleasure having yourperspective as well from around
the world.
And we appreciate everybodyjoining us on Retail Relates.
But Lisa, thank you very muchfor for coming in today.
Elisa S (51:49):
Thank you for having me and for these wonderful
questions and for sharing yourexperiences, both Guy and Judy.
I really appreciated that.
What happens when a designer turns research into
empathy?
For Elisa Servais, retaildesign isn't about decorating
spaces, it's about creatingenvironments that connect
people, cultures, and emotions.
Hi, I'm Rachani Ball, and I'mjoined today by co-hosts Judy
Sedjini and Guy Courtin for aconversation that spans
continents, creativity, andcuriosity. Elisa's journey has
(01:06):
taken her from Brussels, toShanghai, to London and back
again, working with globalbrands like Levi Strauss and
Company before earning her PhDin retail design and teaching
one of the only programs of itskind at Hasselt University in
Belgium.
In practice, she's deliveredeverything from shop and shops
to rollout programs to flagshipconcepts and city center
rejuvenations across food,fashion, and beauty.
(01:28):
In academia, her doctoral workcentered on the value of
experiential retail and producedpractical frameworks and how-to
tools that designers andretailers apply on the ground.
Today, through herBrussels-based consultancy, she
blends design thinking,behavioral research, and brand
strategy to help brands take amore strategy-driven,
omnichannel, collaborative, andinclusive approach to retail
(01:51):
design.
She approaches every projectwith two essential questions in
focus.
What makes an in-storeexperience valuable and how can
we design it?
In this episode, Alisa shareslessons on adaptability,
empathy, and what she calls thecost of essence, the risk
retailers take when they chasetrends instead of staying true
to who they are.
She reminds us that designisn't just about how a space
(02:14):
looks, it's about how it feelsand how it connects people to
purpose.
From Shanghai skylines toBelgian biscuit boutiques, Alisa
helps us to see retail designas a mirror of human behavior
and a tool for reconnection inan increasingly digital world.
Stay tuned for a conversationthat blends art, analysis, and
authenticity and explores howgreat design doesn't just shape
(02:36):
space, it shapes experience.
So let's get started with thisepisode of Retail Relates, an
exciting uh lineup today andtopic.
I'm joined by our co-host,Judy, of course a star student
and graduate of George Mason,and Guy Cortan, who is the
(02:57):
'chatter in chief', I guess.
That title is a new one, and Ikind of like it.
How are you guys doing today?
Guy C (03:03):
Doing good, Rich.
Rich H (03:04):
How are you guys doing?
Judy, what time is it overwhere you are?
Judy S (03:07):
It's 4 p.m.
right now.
Rich H (03:09):
And I'm gonna introduce uh our guest today,
Elisa Servais who we just readher bio.
Terrific background.
Elisa and I have had uh manyconversations via via WhatsApp
and LinkedIn.
Elisa, where where is it?
Uh what time is it where youare?
Elisa S (03:23):
Well, I'm in I'm on holiday at the seaside in
Calais, in France, so it's threeo'clock here.
Rich H (03:28):
Well, that's one of the beauties to podcasting and to
being able to connect virtually,if not in person.
So let's get started with thisuh with this episode.
I'm excited for this topic.
You have a very impressivebackground, a very unique
background.
What we want to get startedwith is a question that we ask
of all of our guests.
We'd like you to start withsharing three pivotal moments.
(03:52):
It can be personal orprofessional, that shaped your
path and brought you to whereyou are today.
Elisa S (03:58):
Well, I think the first one would be that I uh moved
with my family to the UnitedStates when I was uh a teenager,
13, I believe.
Um, and that was the first uhinternational experience at a
very young age, and that helpedto reinforce some of my natural
traits like curiosity andopen-mindedness that was already
(04:19):
there, but I think having toadapt to a new country at that
young age really helped.
Um, but I think it also helpedme develop essential skills that
maybe weren't so natural.
I had to learn to be veryflexible, to be very adaptable,
and that has helped me immenselyin my in my career.
And it also was a great way forme to discover people watching
(04:42):
and cultural watching, liketrying to understand cultural
differences.
Okay, I'm from Belgium, they'reAmericans.
I lived in a very internationalcity, so it was also okay,
well, they're from there, andthat's how they do things.
Um, and that's also been like agreat tool in my career.
That would be the first one, Ithink.
Uh, second pivotal moment wasmy first job, which was working
(05:04):
for Levi Straussenko.
And so for the little story,I'm trained as an interior
architect.
Um, there's not a lot of retaildesign education in the world.
This is a topic which Istrongly advocate is for more
retail design education becausemost um retail designers end up
being trained as interiorarchitects uh with no marketing
(05:24):
training whatsoever.
So um either you're gonna loveit or you're gonna hate it.
Uh obviously, uh Levi's was myintroduction to uh the retail
world and marketing, andobviously I loved it, I'm still
here, but it was a beautiful wayfor me to grasp this idea of a
brand as a person, a brand withpersonality traits, with values,
(05:47):
and how like a collective ofpeople comes together to bring
that idea or that person alive,and I just thought this is so
beautiful.
Like we're all workingcollectively around these shared
values that Levi's has.
And obviously, Levi's hasbeautiful values of you know,
integrity and inclusion, and soobviously, it was a great
(06:08):
introduction to retail, um, andI really loved it, and it's
still here today, as you cansee.
And then the third pivotalmoment would be my PhD, so that
was not planned, that was quiteunexpected, but it really
brought me so much in terms ofgaining a more holistic analytic
and analytical way of thinking.
I I have always been ananalytical thinker, but it just
(06:32):
deepened it because this wholeacademic approach where you have
to first identify a problem oran opportunity, and then you
have to build specific researchquestions that you want
answered.
It really helps to frameeverything.
And I really strongly believethat in the way retail is moving
today, where you can't bedesigning physical stores as you
(06:56):
did before in silo, but youreally need to be designing them
with like this analyticalthinking of where does it enter
in an omnichannel strategy,what's going to be the specific
goal here, you end up havingthis analytical reflection of
what's the problem, what's theopportunity, what am I trying to
answer?
So I really think that in termsof what it brought me, with the
(07:19):
experience that I already hadin practice, and now this way of
thinking that actually is goingin the direction of where
retail is going, it makes mequite a unique profile.
And I'd like to think that ithas armed me for the future of
our practice, if that makessense.
Rich H (07:34):
It does.
Is this what you imagined whenyou were younger that this is
the path you would take?
Elisa S (07:39):
Not at all.
It's really come as a bigsurprise.
Lots of surprises along theway.
I didn't think that I'd bemoving around the world so much.
I didn't think that I uh Ithink the PhD was definitely the
biggest surprise.
And at the same time, it's beena wonderful surprise, I would
say.
Rich H (07:56):
What's a challenge that you have faced in at any point
in your career that you tooksomething away from that has
stayed with you?
Elisa S (08:04):
I've had a lot of personal uh challenges, lots of
things related to family.
Um, I also was diagnosed withrheumatoid arthritis at some
point, which is actually why Iended up doing the PhD, because
I just couldn't necessarilypractice as a retail designer
anymore full-time.
So I was thinking, okay, well,at first I'm gonna look for
(08:26):
teaching, ended up doing a PhD.
So again, it was quiteunexpected and a surprise.
Some of these life decisionsthat impacted my career path
were self-imposed.
I decided, for example, alsothat I wanted to have a child on
my own at one point, and thatobviously also has impact still
today on what I can do and can'tdo professionally.
(08:48):
Um, but the rheumatoidarthritis, for example, they
just kind of landed on me.
And so that I would say was achallenge, but again, it has
taught me adaptability and ithas taught me to pivot.
Okay, so I'm not gonna beworking as a retail designer
full-time.
What do I want to do?
I want to teach.
Here is somebody offering me todo a PhD, and at first I was
(09:10):
like, no way, I can't do that,be on my own for four years in
my head, I'm gonna die.
And then in the end, it endedup being such a great
opportunity, and so I thinkagain, this brings us back to
this idea of open-mindedness umand being open also to
opportunities that come that youdidn't necessarily expect.
(09:30):
And now I look at my plan whereI well, I didn't necessarily
have a plan, but I kind of Ithink like everybody, you have
an idea of where life, what yourlife is gonna be.
You know, I'm gonna be married,have two kids, have a house,
have this wonderful designcareer, I'm gonna be in
magazines.
And now I look at where I amand I think of this plan, and
I'm like, yeah, no, thatwouldn't have actually worked
(09:51):
for me.
So I think there's also thisself-reflection.
Uh, it's it's helped me toself-reflect and to be critical
and to go, you know what?
Actually, the life I have nowis better than the life that I
thought I wanted, if that makessense.
Um, and so challenges actuallyend up helping you grow and
realize your potential andrealize your happiness points,
(10:12):
if that makes sense.
Rich H (10:13):
It makes all the sense in the world.
And actually, with our audiencein general, but definitely the
students that are listening tothis, I would footnote this and
play it over and over againbecause I don't think there's
anybody that's our age, whateverour age happens to be, other
than Judy, who have been througha relatively long career that
(10:35):
have enjoyed it, that this iswhere we imagined we would be.
And if we go back and look atwhat we thought we wanted to be
in the beginning of our journey,we might not have been happy.
We likely wouldn't have beenhappy.
We wound up where we weresupposed to wind up.
Elisa S (10:48):
Exactly.
And I think I would also addthat it's still a challenge
today.
I'm still today dealing withthe challenge of work-life
balance because again, I have afour-year-old, I'm a single mom,
I love my kid to death, but I'mstill have all of these
ambitions.
Um, and it's so it's still achallenge today.
And I think that you have toaccept that life is always kind
of a challenge, and that'sactually what keeps it
(11:09):
interesting is that in yourcareer, you are constantly gonna
have these challenges, and it'sconstantly gonna be growth, and
don't just expect it to settleat one point.
Um, what makes it interestingis the continuous challenges.
Judy S (11:22):
It's really comforting to hear as a newly graduate that
you know there isn't really asolid plan because sometimes I
wish I had, you know, a certainplan with steps that I could do.
It's good to hear that, youknow, life just works out how
it's supposed to.
Elisa S (11:33):
I think, I mean, we'll get to it, I think, in some of
the future questions, which areabout some tips and tricks.
Um, but for me, it's aboutopen-mindedness, flexibility.
Uh, yes, have some thoughts asto the direction you want to go,
but maybe don't be set in thatbecause you might lose out on
opportunities that will actuallyarise that will be better
suited for you.
So it's about having like apath A, but being open to path B
(11:58):
happening and maybe coming backto path A if you realize that
path B doesn't suit you.
Nothing is set in stone,really, basically.
Guy C (12:05):
Yeah, no, at least I I appreciate that because I I
think in what Rich just saidtoo, and and Judy, for your your
sake, like if you had asked thethe 10-year-old guy what he
wanted to do, um, you know,firefighter, policeman was
probably top of the list.
Supply chain was number 175 ona list of 50, right?
So uh, and here I am.
I've been in this for over 25years now, and I love it.
(12:27):
But to your point, Lisa, it itit, you know, like I said, when
I started out after college andgraduate school, I I didn't know
what's supply chain.
I couldn't spell your supplychain, all the letters.
So I I had one question, if Imay to, because I think it's
really interesting for me tohear, you know, sort of your
pivots, and and it's I thinkit's to Judy's point, really
encouraging to hear that you cando that.
But in when you look back onit, I mean that's that took a
(12:48):
lot of courage, right?
To to take a PhD, to toobviously have a child, you
know, all the things you'vedone.
What do you think?
And you mentioned sort of thatfirst experience moving to the
US, like for for folks out therewho are listening, like how do
they know like when is it to getuncomfortable, right?
And how to get out of theirtheir path, right?
Like you said, I got path A,but maybe I should go to path B
(13:09):
or C or D or you know X, Y, Z.
But what do you think it ittakes for someone to do that,
you know, whether they're 22 orwhether they're 62?
Elisa S (13:20):
I think it's definitely easier when you're younger.
So I would definitely encouragepeople in their younger years
to do it.
I think for the simple reasonsthat you don't yet have uh
certain framed life things thatare there, like you don't have a
house yet, you don't have a uhuh maybe a partner yet, you
don't have a kid yet.
So for me, moving to China wasvery simple.
(13:41):
I didn't have any anythingholding me back in a sense.
So it was just when I moved toShanghai, I just moved to
Shanghai and that was it.
And it was just very simple.
There was like, what do I haveto lose?
I'm just gonna go try it.
I don't like it, I come back.
There's nothing, nobody else isgonna be impacted except me.
So I do think at that age, justdo it, just jump.
(14:02):
Um, and that's easier.
It gets harder, obviously, whenyou have uh children, because
there are then consequences onother people than yourself.
That being said, I think it'sall about considering your
entire situation.
Okay, so am I with somebodyelse who can potentially support
me while I try this?
(14:22):
Because I really do need to trythis.
I really would highly recommendpeople to not have regrets.
So if there's something thatyou really want to try, if an
opportunity arises that you kindof want to explore, it's about
seeing the feasibility of it.
So just kind of again,analytical thinking, critical
overall thinking.
What can I afford to do?
(14:44):
But also what do I want to doand long term, will I have
regrets or not?
This opportunity is notsomething that I expected, or
um, this life thing is fallingon my head.
So I think it depends on thesituation.
But for me, for example, therheumatoid arthritis, it just
landed on me, and it then okay,it's not something that I want,
but it's something I have toaccept, and then from there I
(15:06):
can pivot.
The first step in case it'ssomething that lands on you is
about acceptance.
So, okay, this thing justlanded on me, accepting it.
Now, what do I do?
What's the pivot?
Let's explore what do I like todo?
I like to teach.
Boom.
Okay, so I went to seekuniversities and then they told
me PhD.
And then I was like, okay, notnecessarily, but again, the
(15:26):
open, keep the keep the openmind.
Okay, so maybe I will be on myown, and that's not necessarily
something I'm comfortable withat the moment.
But at the same time, I'm doingthe pros and cons.
You know, I'm gonna be on myown, but at the same time, for
four years I'm getting paid toreally dig deep into a topic
that I'm passionate about, andthat when you're in practice,
you don't have time to dig deepinto.
(15:47):
Okay, that actually soundsreally nice.
And at the same time, I get toteach as part of the PhD.
So it's like weighing out, Ithink, the pros and cons, the
feasibility.
And in this case, it was kindof a golden, like when I did the
pros and cons, it just ended upbeing a golden package because
I was getting paid.
So the financial security thatI needed from my family
(16:07):
situation was there.
It was something a bit, yeah,it made me uncomfortable, but at
the same time, I was thinking,well, you try.
And there were like, I alsochecked, you know, like, what am
I getting myself into in thiscase?
Like, what if I fail, or whatif I have to quit in the middle?
Do I have to give the moneyback?
I was reassured that I didn'thave to, you know.
So I mean, I I did my gooddiligence of also checking what
(16:29):
there was to gain versus whatthe risks were.
So it's like risk assessment ina sense.
And I think my advice would bethat a lot of the time we
overestimate risks.
We tend to be thinking toonegatively.
And again, my mind is trustlife.
Something always works out.
It's very rare that things goreally, really, really wrong
when you're well-intentioned.
Rich H (16:50):
So that actually is an interesting pivot because I
wanted to ask (16:53):
you have this intersection between your
academic research and youracademic life and then
re-real-world retail design.
What's a lesson that you'vetaken from your doctoral
research on experiential retailenvironments?
And where do you think brandsand retailers are getting it?
I can phrase it as getting itwrong, or have the opportunity
(17:14):
to improve?
Elisa S (17:15):
For me, there's two big things happening at the moment.
Uh, the first one would be thatI think most retailers are
aware that we need to be in anomni-channel way of working and
thinking, but that in practicethey are still a bit stuck in
their old ways of working, andthat makes sense because you
know, like operation side, ittakes a lot of efforts to make
(17:38):
shifts and changes.
And so, in reality, they knowthey need to have omni-channel
thinking, but in practice theyare still a bit working uh
channels in silo that is notaligned then with what customers
expect.
Customers today they expectseamless experience throughout
all the channels, right?
So they want something.
(17:59):
I'm gonna be on my phone, on myon the on the mobile app of
this uh retailer, and then inthe store, I want something
that's just gonna workseamlessly within that in terms
of communication, in terms ofproduct experience, in terms of
product delivery, etc.
etc.
And at the moment, mostretailers know that that needs
to happen, but implementing itis still a bit difficult.
(18:20):
So there's definitely somethingthere that needs to be moving a
bit faster.
And then the second thing forme is that a lot of retailers
are getting carried away withtrends at the cost of essence,
as I call it.
So there's this call to be thefirst to be or to follow what's
is surfing right now, or youknow, so there's a big call for
(18:42):
digital integration, AI use, etcetera, et cetera.
And I'm not saying that that'swrong, but I think a lot of the
times they're copying whatothers are doing, or they're
just falling into the trap ofwhat a supplier is telling them.
So Walgreens, the fridges, youknow, like a big disaster of
millions of dollars lost becausethey didn't really focus on key
(19:03):
essential questions.
And so for me, if I have onetip for retailers right now,
it's to use the three keyquestions that I use and which
are like very uh strategicthinking based.
Question number one is alwaysdoes it make sense for my brand?
Who am I?
What are my values?
(19:24):
What is my mission statement?
Go back to that.
That's your essence, that's thecore.
Every decision you make shouldbe aligned with who you are as a
brand.
Question number two, does itadd something to my target
customer's experience?
Again, while green fridges thatshow you what's inside of the
fridge, which the glass doorused to do, that doesn't add
(19:45):
anything.
So don't make that mistake.
Question number three (19:47):
what is the role of each specific store
in your overall strategy?
Are we brand building?
Are we selling product?
And in whichever case, whetheryou're selling products or
whether you're trying to buildyour brand, how does what you're
doing in this physical storecomplement what you're already
(20:07):
doing in your other channels?
Because otherwise, people haveno reason to come to this
specific store.
So those for me are the threekey questions that I ask my uh
clients at every single firstmeeting.
If I don't understand who yourbrand is, if I don't understand
who your target customer is, andif I don't understand the
omnichannel strategy and howthis specific store contributes
(20:29):
to it, then I'm not gonna beable to really deliver the most
valuable store experience that Ican.
Guy C (20:35):
That makes a lot of sense.
And I I really appreciate that,Lisa.
And I'd like to dig in a littledeeper on that because I think
what's interesting is what I'mhearing is a lot of your
customers are sort of stuck in,well, stores are stores are
stores.
So I just, you know, put upfour walls and some aisles and a
cash register and put myinventory in there and you know,
stack it high and let it fly,right?
As they said in Seinfeld yearsand years ago.
(20:55):
But obviously, as you've said,you know, retail is obviously
dynamic, it's changing.
There's a whole omnichannel, Idon't even call it omnichannel,
it's just retail, whether I'm onmy phone, my watch, my tablet.
Are you seeing the mature, orare some of your more mature
customers, are they alsounderstanding, like, hey, my
store that's in, you know,downtown Brussels is going to
look very different than mystore in Bruges, and it's gonna
(21:16):
be very different than my storein Lille.
Are they at that level ofsophistication or are they
still, you know, still with yourthree questions sort of stuck?
Can't we get through those yetbefore really being
sophisticated on their view onindividual stores?
Elisa S (21:29):
My own experience of my own clients is that I still
need to work through the basicthree questions.
That being said, I do know ofretailers and even local
retailers that have thatmaturity, and that's why they
don't need my help.
So I'm very happy to also notbe needed, to be honest.
Um, yes, of course, you alwayswant to be needed, but it's nice
(21:52):
to see examples of cases whereyou don't need to be there to
help because people are gettingit so right, and that then
becomes an example for theothers.
So in Belgium, we have aretailer, my favorite retailer
at the moment, because they'regetting it so right on all
levels.
I don't know if you know of thespeculos.
It's a Belgian biscuit.
You guys all know the you youknow the little biscuff, yeah.
Guy C (22:16):
So just just full disclosure, Lisa, my my
grandmother's Belge, so I'm I'mpart Belge myself.
Elisa S (22:22):
There you go.
Guy C (22:22):
So I love speculos.
Elisa S (22:23):
You know speculos.
A lot of people know of uh thelittle red speculos that you
biscuits that you have with yourcoffee in a lot of coffee
shops, uh which are now calledbiscoff, which they used to be
called something else, and allBelgians are going, why did you
change your name?
We don't get it.
But that's another topic.
But, anyways, the one of theoldest houses that make speculos
in Belgium is called Maisond'Andois.
(22:45):
And Maison d'Andois um gets itright on a lot of levels in
terms of their retail strategyoverall.
They've decided to recenter ontheir core values.
So they've really like it's ait's a family business and
they're like their fourthgeneration, I think.
And they really decided to dolike a whole, you can tell
they've done a whole exercise ofrefocusing on their brand
(23:05):
identity.
Who are we?
What are our values?
And right now their values arereally anchored into like
sustainability, localization.
So they've actually used tohave stores in New York, for
example, which they decided toall close down because for them,
again, it doesn't make sense tobe like sending products all
the way across the world.
They prefer to focus on theirlocal market of Belgium, maybe a
(23:27):
little bit France and Holland.
And then every decision thatthey make in terms of even
product collaborations are alldone with like local chefs to
try and do this and do that.
One of my favorite products isactually like a cookie that is
made with 20% food waste becauseit's made from like the apple
uh waste that they make into uha sort of compote, like um uh
(23:48):
you know, like paste, and thenthey put that in the cookie.
And when you eat it, I swearyou you feel like you're eating
apple pie, but in a biscuit.
It's crazy how good it is, andit's got 20% food waste in it.
So, anyways, that's the productside.
But in terms of retail design,what I love is they have tons of
stores in Brussels, not tons,but like at least 10, 12, and
each one is completely uniqueand anchored into the aesthetic
(24:13):
that makes sense for theneighborhood that they're in.
So they have three even in thevicinity of the Grand Place,
which is our main square inBrussels, and each one is
completely like if you enter,you know it's them.
It's like the ASOP, basically.
They're the the biscuit ASOP ofBelgium.
I don't know how to put itbetter, but you know ASOP has
this beautiful retail designformula of like each store looks
(24:36):
completely different in theirdesign, but at the same time you
can identify always that it'sASOP.
I feel the same way aboutDandois.
I walk into each of theirstores, I can tell it's them,
but each store is a completelydifferent universe because
they've anchored it into thelocal context.
So there are beautifulexamples.
Guy C (24:53):
How far do you think retailers should go with this,
right?
Because then there's also thethe theory of, you know, if I go
to McDonald's in New York Cityand then I go to McDonald's in
Johannesburg, I should get thesame Big Mac fries and Coke, and
I sort of the layout shouldfeel this air quote same, right?
So there's sort of that, butthere's some all I know there's
always some likeregionalization, but it's always
(25:15):
it's like or or Starbucks,right?
Hey, Starbucks is Starbucks isStarbucks.
From your sense, you know,especially I I I love your I
your opinion from the designside, you know, for retailers,
where's that line, right?
Do you want to be so it's allstandardized experiences?
Or to your point, which I love,it's like if if I'm in Brussels
and I go to one store to getspeculos and they go to the same
one, but the it's it feels likeit's part of the neighborhood,
(25:37):
like that's part of theexperience.
It's not just the speculos,it's the whole you know, store.
But for some retailers, how doyou see that sort of that that
balancing act?
Elisa S (25:44):
Uh well, first of all, I'd like to say that using a bit
of local anchoring helps boththe locals, uh, but also helps
with the tourists.
Because when then you become abrand fan, you end up wanting to
travel the world to see all ofthe stores because you want to
see how localized it has beenmade.
So again, ASOP is wonderfulwith their target audience of
(26:05):
people who are very retaildesign oriented, because we're
gonna make a point of going toevery single store.
When we know there's a store inthe city, we make a point of
going.
Uh, I'm a fan of Dondois, now Igo and see every single one of
their stores because I want to Iwant to see.
I know that I have somefriends, I know it sounds crazy,
that are friends of Starbucks,and they make a point of seeing
what's unique in this Starbucks.
(26:26):
Uh, what mug can I get here?
So, to answer your question, Ithink for me it's about
understanding what are the coreelements that always need to be
replicated, and understandingthe percentage of flexibility.
And that will vary from brandto brand because it depends on
(26:46):
how big fans your customers are.
So when you're a brand that canhave really fans, you know,
like obsessive fans, then themargin of the percentage of
flexibility that you havelocally can be very big.
So, for example, Nike, they cango really crazy because people
(27:07):
are really brand fans.
So they can keep just like 20%of their core identity and the
fixed, whatever fixed elementsyou decide, whether it's
product-based, retail designbased, whatever.
You keep 20%, you can go 80%crazy locally because people are
so Nike is so well known, it'sso well anchored in terms of
brand identity, and customersare really truly, truly fans.
(27:28):
When you're a brand that's alittle bit more both
convenience, I want to say, andfan-based, like Starbucks is a
little bit in the in between,right?
So, yes, you have fans ofStarbucks, but you also have a
lot of people who abroad go toStarbucks just for the comfort
of I know this brand.
It's not that they're fans, butit's more the reassurance, if
that makes sense.
And there your margin becomes abit smaller because there you
(27:52):
need to make sure that you tapinto that reassurance.
So people are the people whoare looking for the reassurance,
they want to be able to findwhat they are expecting to find.
Otherwise, you're gonnafrustrate them.
Frustration is the worst enemyof retail.
And then you can have that 40or maybe 50% of flexibility
locally for the more fans or theones who want to maybe explore
(28:15):
the locality.
And I think it's a bit of a hitand miss game, to be honest.
And Starbucks is really greatat that.
They just try, and that'sanother tip that I was gonna
share is just try.
I mean, retail is all abouttrying and failing and learning
from your failures and thenbouncing back.
And what I really love withStarbucks is that is that they
do they try things, andsometimes there are retail
(28:36):
design mistakes that I feelthey've made.
Like, for example, a few oftheir locations in Asia, I feel
they went a little bit too far,localizing and losing a bit of
their identity, but that's verypersonal for me.
Like I didn't, I it looked morelike a tea house than
Starbucks, and then I startgoing, well, for the people who
are looking for reassurance,there maybe you went a bit too
far.
Because I don't know that if Iwas entering this, I would feel
(28:58):
comforted that I'm at myStarbucks.
I would feel maybe a bit toofar.
So I do think there are a fewexamples where they went a bit
far, but in most cases they tendto, for me, get it right in
terms of understanding thatbalance.
Guy C (29:11):
Yeah, no, I love I love the the notion of you know how
strong is your brand gives youmore leeway, right?
Because you're absolutelyright.
Like if I'm a Adidas or a Nike,like people knew who I am, so I
can go a little bit moreunique, if I should shall I say,
than if I'm just you know a momand pop, you know, selling
diapers everywhere.
Well, I just want to go in, no,I can buy the diapers and go
(29:33):
out.
So whether I'm in Bangladesh orwherever, it's interesting.
I could picture my head sort ofthe slide.
If it's 20% if I'm a big brand,I could slide it over this way
to have more flexibility.
If I'm not, then I need toslide and your your talk about
convenience, I think, isabsolutely spot on too.
Like if I just want to come inwith 7-Eleven and get my
Slurpee, I want to just come inand get my Slurpee.
I don't need it to be lookinglike the region.
Elisa S (29:53):
Well, for me, again, like the slide if you're going
fashion is gonna be PrimarkNike.
You know, Primark is the theone that you can't change really
locally because people justwant a cheap, you know, whatever
cheapest thing.
No, but it's true.
We just go we go to like notthat I don't shop at Primark.
I will shop at Primark becauseI have a four-year-old who
outgrows things in three months.
And so even though I don'tnecessarily like encourage this
(30:15):
idea of overconsumption, there'sjust also the life reality of
like her pants, you know, break,she grows out of them in three
months.
I don't know.
She has gross birds, okay.
Here I am buying pants again.
It just sometimes makes moresense.
And then I'm sorry, but youjust want to get in, be able to
find your thing immediately, getout, and you don't want to
(30:37):
explore things.
That's not what Primark is forin most cases.
Then you have the other hand,where personally my love brand
is Converse, I'm addicted, andthen.
It's a completely differentuniverse.
You know, like if they build abeautiful store with like they
don't need a lot of codes thatare their own to make me feel
like it's my environment andthat I'm there to enjoy it.
Rich H (30:59):
Well, you said it in the beginning, and um I'm gonna
emphasize it in two ways.
One, that authentic connectionto the customer matters, and one
of the problems that manyretailers have today is copy the
leader.
If you're just following whatyou deem to be best in class,
then everybody's trying to addthis local flavor in, but it's
(31:24):
the ones that have the authenticconnection with the customer,
and it's part of their brandwhere it's going to make sense,
as opposed to where it's forced.
And customers are figuring thatout more and more.
I'll use that to pivot to aquestion.
I'm um surprised it took usthis long in the podcast to ask
the digital and the AI question,but I I have to.
(31:45):
The immersion of digital and AIin retail today in both uh the
the back end and the front line.
How do you think that isimpacting retail and how do you
believe it should?
Elisa S (31:58):
First of all, I'm a strong advocate for embracing
it.
I think it's all aboutaccepting the fact that society
evolves, like we, you know,society has always evolved.
There's always been shifts, andin retail that's the same.
So it's about againunderstanding customer
perspectives.
Okay, what do customers see asthe benefit of digital
(32:21):
integration, technologydevelopments, and AI?
And then from theirperspective, trying to
understand what then that meansfor the role of the physical.
And for me, the question whenpeople ask me, okay, well, what
becomes of the physical store?
Well, again, from thecustomer's perspective, what
does AI do for them and whatdoes it not do for them?
(32:43):
And then you have your answerfor the role of the physical
store.
So it needs to be seen as acomplementary.
Like for me, I think a lot ofpeople still seem to think that
it's like AI or tech versusphysical.
No, they're partners.
Like, why can't we just againhave an holistic view of the
overall strategy and just lookat them as complementary pieces
(33:06):
of a puzzle?
It's about having this overalllike meta-level um perspective,
looking at it from thecustomer's perspective again,
and considering, okay, so we'regonna have AI for this, we're
gonna then that means that thenthe physical store should do
this, and that means that thenthe web shop should do this, you
know what I mean.
Like it's about understandinghow each of the puzzle pieces
(33:30):
can be coherent butcomplementary.
So it's not about beingconsistent.
And for me, at the moment, if Ihad to answer the question as
to what can the physical storeadd to the story, it's clearly
two things it's 360 sensoryexperiences.
So at the moment, technologystill cannot immerse you in a
(33:51):
fully sensory branded universe.
So, in terms of like immersingpeople, customers into your
brand's values, your brand'smission statement, and all of
that, the personality, all ofthe things we've been talking
about, the physical space isstill the best tool to do that.
You can really fully play ontouch, sense, sound, and that
(34:11):
helps people create thestrongest memory in their brain
of your brand.
And then I think the way thatwe're seeing society change, we
see that people, although we'remore connected than ever, people
feel more and moredisconnected, uh, disconnected
from each other, disconnectedfrom the world, but also
disconnected from themselves.
And so I'm seeing a lot ofshifts in physical retailing
(34:33):
that are focusing onreconnection.
So community building is a bigtheme in terms of physical
retailing at the moment.
We see a lot of brands workingon this idea of communities.
And then we're also seeing alot of uh retail places now that
are focusing on reconnecting tothe to the heritage, to the
place.
And the third thing is we'realso seeing a lot of places that
(34:54):
are focusing on mindfulness,self-development.
So reconnecting with myself.
And that again, I don'tnecessarily think that an AI can
do on their own.
They could do it in combinationwith a physical space.
So again, this is where you canyou should be critical of how
can we work together versusseeing each other as in in
(35:15):
competition.
I don't understand this notionof competition.
The idea is just to give peoplethe best experience possible.
How can we do that using allthe tools?
Rich H (35:24):
Well, automation has always been scary.
I you've seen it from a supplychain perspective.
You go to some areas of theworld and start talking about
supply chain automation, and youwill have people that will
worry about jobs.
If you look at it in a certainview, they are correct.
But it can also mean theadvancing of jobs, the advancing
(35:47):
of opportunity.
Guy C (35:48):
Yeah, no, I agree.
And I I think to Lisa's point,I think you're absolutely right.
I I think there's this strangedivide where it's you know, it's
like a zero-sum game whereeither we're digital and AI and
automation or we're old schoolphysical store, where I think
what you said, Lisa makes is iswhere it should be, which is
really it's retail.
So the experience, right?
(36:09):
The the 360 immersiveness, uh,the embracing of things like
different technologies.
To your point, Rich.
You know, I think it's one ofthe things we look at in the
supply chain side with roboticsis that we've had, as you said,
Alisa, communities, you know,society has evolved.
Like that, that that is oneconstant.
Things evolve.
So robots are just there as atool.
Yes, you're gonna lose somejobs, but you're gonna gain
(36:30):
others.
You're gonna lose some thingsfrom the past, but you're gonna
gain new experiences, which, youknow, some might like better
than others, which is great.
And I think that's the partthat's a challenge.
And I think I guess, you know,pivoting to that too, Lisa.
My question to you is when yousee this sort of resistance, do
you think, or are you seeing,are there specific retail
sub-industries that are moreopen to saying we're gonna marry
(36:52):
digital and AI with our overallexperience in the store?
Like Adidas, I'm in Boston.
They had uh a reallyinteresting uh store right by
the marathon, the BostonMarathon, and they married a lot
of digital with the physical.
Back to your earlier pointabout making it local.
Like that store was really allaround the Boston Marathon, the
history and all this, and theyhad all these digital exhibits
(37:13):
you could see.
They had like even a treadmillthat you could actually air
quotes run the marathon route,you know, looking at a screen.
But it was a great example ofdigital, physical, you know,
using some AI.
And to back to your pointearlier, they have great brand
value so they can do this.
But do you see, or are youseeing, are there specific
sub-retailers that are doing abetter job marrying these two?
Elisa S (37:32):
I'm gonna bring it back to my three questions.
I think that what I'm seeing isthat people struggle to answer
these three questions.
Um, and so again, some aregetting it right, but a lot of
people are just going, I need tohave tech.
I need to have digital.
I've seen this great screenagain.
I had I had a meeting not twoweeks ago with a client going, I
saw at rituals that they had ascreen above their till, so I
(37:54):
want to have a screen behind mytill at my store.
And that was the briefingmeeting.
I I mean, I didn't even like Ihadn't even asked questions
about their brand yet.
I hadn't asked questions abouttheir customers yet, and I'm
already being told that I needto put a digital screen behind
the till.
Like, whoa, calm down.
Can we go back to the basics?
Who are you as a brand?
(38:14):
Does it make sense for yourbrand?
Who are your target customers?
Will this bring something totheir experience?
And number three, what is thegoal of this store?
Now let's rethink this idea ofdigital screen.
You want tech integration?
Let's think about how it'sgonna work for what we just
talked about.
Like I see great examples inall sectors and I see bad
examples in all sectors.
(38:35):
I think it's again more aboutthe retailer's ability to be
aware of what's going on, but becritical about how that answers
the three questions.
And I think there are brandsthat really get it right.
Adidas does a great job.
Nike, at the moment, I'm a bitsometimes it's a hit and miss at
the moment, my personalopinion, but I think Adidas is
(38:55):
doing better than Nike at themoment in that regard.
Some of the luxury brands aredoing great.
Like Hermes for me is one ofthe best at being very critical
and being like innovativebecause they're doing things
that only work for them.
So there was this greatactivation around um, there's
like an equestrian event inParis every year that takes
place in the Grand Palais.
(39:16):
And of course, Hermes, hello,that makes sense for them,
right?
That's like, you know, wherethe brand started.
And so, you know, theirbeautiful store in Paris that
has like these beautiful shapesand the coffee shop, blah blah
blah.
Um, in there, they hadinstalled in one of the
beautiful little uh wooden uhlattice modules, they had
installed a trampoline with adigital screen that was mocking,
(39:37):
so you were jumping on thetrampoline and it's mocking you
riding a horse.
Very simple when you thinkabout it, and it is tech
integration, and it's like thiscan only work for her maids.
So for me, this is like aperfect example of how you can
do fidgetal because they'reusing tech for their purpose and
only for something that canwork for them.
(39:58):
Nobody else could have donethis and it would have worked.
Adidas couldn't have done this,you know, like le sauthermes.
They called it le sodermes andit was perfect.
So for me, again, it's aboutlike there are examples out
there of great brands that arereally getting it, you know,
like really being, huh?
Okay, how can we use tech tosell our story and only our
(40:19):
story?
And those for me are the onesthat are getting it so perfectly
right.
And I think as Rich saidbefore, a lot of people tend to
fall into the trap of copycats.
They're doing this, so we'regonna do the same.
But again, as you said, Rich,like people catch on, customers
aren't fooled.
What they want is they want tobe able to connect to your
specific brand.
So be clear on who you areyourself and create something
(40:42):
that is unique to you and thatwill help customers to create
that connection only with you.
Guy C (40:47):
So sorry, I was I was laughing, Elisa, as you told the
story about the digital screen.
So I worked at ForestryResearch in the late 90s, right?
Dot com boom and and quickstory, Colo Gun Water, right?
They here in the United States,they ship water.
And we literally had them comein and tell told us our CEO read
an article in the Wall StreetJournal about Amazon.
So now we want to be likeAmazon and we want to ship water
(41:09):
direct to the consumer.
And we literally looked at themand said, You have to be
kidding me.
It makes zero sense for yourbrand and your logistics.
But they were like, we have allthis money, we're gonna start
shipping water to people.
It failed.
I'll just leave it at that.
No surprise.
Judy S (41:22):
But yeah, exactly.
Going back to what youmentioned about AI and combining
both AI and like the physicalworld, what advice do you have
for those like me who are aboutto enter the um retail industry
that has become so tech-drivenrecently?
How can we leverage um those AItools to stand out?
Elisa S (41:38):
I think again, it's about first of all being
self-reflective.
Uh, it's funny because I had aLinkedIn post a little bit
around this topic.
I got really self-aware becausea customer client, uh retailer
client, came to me again in thebriefing meeting with an AI
image of the store she wanted.
And this was the briefingmeeting.
I knew it was gonna happen.
I knew it was gonna happensomeday.
(41:59):
I should have been prepared,but it still took me a little
bit by surprise.
Because she's a youngentrepreneur, we had uh
negotiated very few hours on heron her scope, uh, with me
focusing only on like a conceptsketch.
So not like a detailed designwhere I would be able myself to
build a 3D.
So I wasn't self-aware of like,can I design just as well as
(42:20):
AI?
I know I can design better thanAI.
I got self-aware about thevisualization because I thought,
okay, well, she came to me witha beautiful AI visual.
I'm gonna come to her with ahand sketch because that's all I
have time and money for interms of our scope.
The lesson I want to share hereis that actually the customer
loved it because she was awareenough, she was able enough to
(42:45):
understand the conceptual ideasthat I was trying to represent
in my sketch.
And actually, funny enough, intoday's day and age, people who
hand sketch are more valued bysome than AI images because AI
images have become a little bittoo common in a way.
So the lesson I got from thisare there's multiple lessons,
but the the main lesson I gotfor myself was me as a creative,
(43:09):
as a as a retail designer, howdo I want to communicate my
ideas?
What is the thing that how whatis my process?
And my personal process is thatI do my analytical research, as
you guys have understood,that's like groundwork.
And then I do my conceptualvisualization, and that for to
do that, I actually stillpersonally like to hand sketch
(43:31):
because I actually design as Isketch and I sketch faster than
I prompt.
That's very personal.
That's just me, that's how Iam.
I I sketch faster, my handworks faster than I talk,
because when I talk, I say toomuch, as you guys may have
already gathered.
Whereas when I sketch, I'mlimited by the speed of my hand.
So that's my personalpreference, and also experience
(43:51):
has taught me that a sketchleaves room for interpretation
in terms of finishes, and so thecustomer tends to focus more on
the big ideas versus if I showthem a finished sketch at the
beginning, they're gonna go, Idon't like that flower pot.
That's not what I'm asking youat this point.
We're not at the finishingstage, we're the conceptual
stage.
Then I move to AI or to like 3Dvisuals for the finishing.
(44:17):
That's my personal process.
And so everybody has theirpersonal process, and I think
that's the first that that's theadvice that I would have for
you is think about yourself.
Does AI again make sense foryou if it helps you in your
process and where in yourprocess it can help you?
I know that for me, AI doesn'tnecessarily it helps me a little
(44:38):
bit in my analysis, but not somuch.
I don't necessarily use it forsketching because I just like to
get my juices flowing, but thenI tend to really need it for
like certain things like colorpalettes, because I do know
that, for example, that's one ofmy weaker points.
I struggle to put colorstogether.
And there, that's where I getdigital tools to help me.
And so it's about understandingyourself and your strength and
(45:00):
understanding where um thosetools can help you on maybe the
things that you feel a bit lesscomfortable with.
Judy S (45:06):
Yeah, that's great advice.
Thank you.
I definitely agree with AI, youknow, backing up your
weaknesses and then with yourown strength.
I think that creates amazingwork.
So thank you for that.
Elisa S (45:14):
Exactly.
I think for me it's the same aswhen you do uh any sort of
teamwork, actually.
It's about understanding thestrengths and weaknesses of the
entire set of tools, whetherthey are human or whether they
are human and tech.
I love teamwork because I thinkteamwork help gets like the
best out of everyone.
So again, don't be so proudthat you can't accept what your
(45:37):
weaknesses are.
Like be smart enough for thesake of the project to
understand this is where I'mgood, this is where I need help,
and then you get whichever helpyou need to work on that.
Rich H (45:49):
It's a good segue into the advice part before we jump
into the rapid fire round.
What do you think in today'sjob market is an underrated
skill?
Elisa S (46:01):
Empathy.
I think, especially in theretail world, it's extremely
important to understandcustomers.
As a retail designer, even moreso.
It's all for me, everything isdesigned around the customer
journey.
And that begins, of course,with again the omnichannel.
So, how did they even come tothe physical store?
So I need to understand whatthey were faced with in terms of
(46:22):
your brand communication beforecoming to the physical store.
And so it's about puttingmyself in the like in that
customer's shoes and looking atthe socials, looking at the
website, and just giving myselfa mission.
Okay, what does this retailersell?
They sell sofas.
Okay, I'm gonna need a sofa.
And then I put myself in thisposition of looking at the
(46:43):
socials, looking at the website,trying to understand what
they're saying about themselves,blah, blah, blah.
And then same in the physicalstore.
So with all my clients, wealways act out a sales scenario.
I always ask them typicalquestions.
Okay, what's the most commonneed that people come to you
for?
What is the typical targetcustomer profile?
And then I literally get asalesperson to act out the
(47:04):
scenario, and I'm acting as thecustomer.
And that again gives me thisopportunity to emphasize, to
really understand uh what workswell, but also what are the pain
points.
And I think that that'ssomething that is a natural
skill.
Some people have it, somepeople don't.
I think it's a skill that youcan, however, learn and develop,
(47:24):
and that I would encouragepeople to dig deep into.
Rich H (47:28):
So this is the part where it's the toughest because
I know that we could go on foranother hour or two and just
have this conversation.
We will have to find anotheropportunity and a topic to bring
you back.
But I am going to ask E you tokick off the rapid fire round.
And at Lisa, it's just thefirst thing that pops into your
head.
Judy, you're next, and then Iwill close up.
Guy C (47:51):
Okay.
I will fully admit I'm gonnamake this on uh on the fly, but
I I you know you talked about alot of different places you
live.
So rapid fire, like where'syour favorite place to live and
why?
Elisa S (48:00):
My favorite in Brussels now, because it has all of the
advantages of all of the otherplaces I've lived, as in like it
has all of the advantages ofcities like London, Shanghai,
for the culture, the food, themix of people.
Um it's actually you know thatit actually is, I think, the top
number one or number two interms of uh being the most
(48:21):
cosmopolite, as we say,cosmopolite uh in the world.
So for me, like I'mcosmopolitan.
Cosmopolitan.
Um, so I've got all of that,but it's human scale.
So I feel like I have all ofthe advantages and I'm still in
a big village.
Judy S (48:36):
If you could travel anywhere in the world just for
24 hours and you didn't have toworry about transport, where
would you go?
I would go back to Shanghai.
Elisa S (48:44):
My daughter is four now, and we haven't been back.
Well, she's never been, and Ilived there for two and a half
years, and I still have a lot offriends there that haven't met
her because obviously China isnot also the easiest to come
from.
So I would really love to goback, and also for retail design
purposes.
Hello, Louis Vuitton ship.
I mean, do we need to talkabout how there's a lot going on
(49:06):
in Shanghai and I would love tosee it.
So both personal andprofessional reasons.
Rich H (49:14):
I'll have to send you a picture of the travel teddy bear
I have getting a custom jacketmade at the South Bund fabric
market.
True story, but that's for adifferent time.
So I'm gonna close with spaceis very important to you, and
I'm gonna take home off thetable because that's a natural
answer.
Where do you go when you justwant to be surrounded with a
(49:37):
great space that you candecompress, that you can think,
that you can be creative?
Elisa S (49:42):
That is not home.
I'm a big cultural buff, and Ifind the moment a lot of
inspiration in exhibitiondesign, especially for retail
design.
So I think because also of therange of what there is, it's a
perfect setting for me,depending on my moods.
If I want to be alone, I can gosee like an exhibition that's
(50:03):
more about, you know,self-reflection or that's only
for an interest that I havemyself.
If I want to spend time with mydaughter or with my friends,
then I can also pick anexhibition right now.
They do a lot of kid-friendlyexhibitions, so I can go and
enjoy that with them.
And also, it's a topic wehaven't touched upon, but that's
really important for me.
Neurodivergence.
So I am gifted and I strugglesometimes with like
(50:26):
overstimulation, which is anissue for me because as a retail
designer, I'm being asked moreand more to design spaces that
are more experiential, so morestimulating.
And I find a lot of inspirationright now in exhibition design
because they have mastered theart of stimulating in waves.
And that's things that I wantto take notes from because I I
(50:48):
really want to bring that moreinto the retail design
practices.
I can see a little bit ofinterest growing, but it's very
slow.
And so I want to educate myselfon that so that I can also help
educate the future generationon it.
Yes, let's build experiencesthat are fully stimulating, but
can we do it in a way that iscomfortable for everybody,
(51:11):
including the one in five of thepopulation that may struggle
with overstimulation?
So for me, exhibition, likegoing to exhibitions, it's
really the perfect combo offinding creativity for my work,
finding that mindfulness momentfor me, and finding the
connection with the people Ilove.
Rich H (51:28):
Love that answer.
And that's actually a goodtopic to bring you back forward,
maybe have a panel.
Lisa, it was an absolutepleasure having the conversation
with you.
Judy, Gee, pleasure having yourperspective as well from around
the world.
And we appreciate everybodyjoining us on Retail Relates.
But Lisa, thank you very muchfor for coming in today.
Elisa S (51:49):
Thank you for having me and for these wonderful
questions and for sharing yourexperiences, both Guy and Judy.
I really appreciated that.
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