October 1, 2025 • 57 mins
What makes a place unforgettable? For Kevin Kelley, it’s not about style or awards—it’s about how spaces shape human behavior and bring people together.
Kevin Ervin Kelley, AIA, is a behavioral design architect, co-founder of Shook Kelley, and author of Irreplaceable: How to Create Extraordinary Places That Bring People Together. For more than three decades, he has worked with brands like Harley-Davidson, Whole Foods, Kraft, and USAA, as well as cultural institutions like MoMA and global cities from Charlotte to Manila.
In this episode, Kevin shares how childhood lessons, design school debates, and client challenges shaped his mission to “fix the everyday.” From food courts and steakhouses to smart cities and global marketplaces, his work proves that space still matters—and that environment is never neutral.
We explore why malls aren’t dead, how sensory design influences behavior, and why leaders must deliver not just convenience but social bliss. Along the way, Kevin reveals insights every leader can use to avoid sameness and create authentic, human-centered experiences.
Kevin Kelley Bio:
Kevin Ervin Kelley, AIA, is an award-winning behavioral design architect and co-founder of Shook Kelley, a strategic design firm with offices in Charlotte and Los Angeles. For more than three decades, he has worked with leadership teams from global brands—including Harley-Davidson, Whole Foods, Kraft, JM Smucker, USAA, and MoMA—as well as professional sports teams, universities, and urban districts. His expertise lies in understanding how the design of space shapes human behavior, perception, and decision-making, translating these insights into strategies that help organizations, communities, and cultural institutions thrive in an increasingly digital world.
Beyond his client work, Kevin co-founded and led the revitalization of South End in Charlotte, a once-blighted district that has since generated over $1.5 billion in economic development. Today, he continues to advise districts like Santa Monica’s Third Street Promenade and international hubs like Makati in the Philippines. A frequent speaker and educator, Kevin has presented at global conferences, taught at Harvard University and UNC Charlotte, and authored Irreplaceable: How to Create Extraordinary Places That Bring People Together, recognized by The Financial Times and The Next Big Idea Club as a must-read on the future of place and culture.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rich (00:00):
What makes a space unforgettable?
For Kevin Kelly, it's not abouthow it looks in a rendering.
Rather how it shapes the waypeople feel, behave and connect.
A lifelong student of humanbehavior, kevin has built a
career helping brands, citiesand cultural institutions
rethink the role of place in anincreasingly digital age.
(00:21):
In this environment, we unpackthe architecture of experience
why environment is never neutral, how sensory design influences
decisions, why marketplacesstill matter and what leaders
can do to create spaces thatdeliver more than efficiency
they deliver belonging.
I'm Rich Honeyball and I'mco-hosting today with Paula Jean
(00:41):
, our digital marketing andglobal community expert, as we
explore the intersection ofdesign, behavior and commerce.
Kevin Irwin Kelly is abehavioral design architect and
co-founder of Shook Kelly, withoffices in Charlotte and Los
Angeles.
For the last three decades,he's worked with leadership
teams from Arlie Davidson, wholeFoods, kraft, usaa and MoMA, as
(01:05):
well as professional sportsfranchises, universities and
cities across the globe.
He also co-founded South End inCharlotte, a formerly blighted
district which has sincegenerated more than $1.5 billion
in development activity.
His debut book, irreplaceablehow to Create extraordinary
places that bring peopletogether, has been recognized by
the Financial Times and theNext Big Idea Club as a
(01:29):
must-read on the future of place.
Kevin's career is a study incontrast.
From steakhouses to smartcities, food courts to cultural
icons, his work demonstratesthat space is not background,
it's foreground.
In this conversation, we'llhear how his early experiences
shaped his behavioral approachto design, why fixing the
(01:50):
everyday matters more thanchasing flashy projects, and how
leaders can define problemsmore clearly before rushing to
solutions.
You'll also hear practicallessons on how to move beyond
convenience and towards socialbliss, why sameness is the enemy
of great design, and how tomake spaces that people choose
to return to again and again.
(02:11):
So welcome back to anotherepisode of Retail Relates.
I am one of your hosts for RichHoniball, and I'm here with
Paula Gean Hi, Paula.
Paula (02:21):
Hello, thank you for having me.
Rich (02:23):
And we are excited to be joined today by Kevin Kelly, who
is the co-founder of ShookKelly and the author of,
irreplaceable, how to CreateExtraordinary Places that Bring
People Together.
Kevin, how are you doing today?
Kevin (02:37):
I'm doing great, very excited to be here.
I'm a big fan of your podcastsand think you have really
relevant topics that are ofgreat interest to me and the
audiences I serve.
Rich (02:48):
Well, I definitely, we definitely appreciate that we
work hard at it, don't we Paula?
Paula (02:52):
Well, one of us does, and that's Rich, so he works very
hard.
Rich (02:56):
That's great, and I enjoyed the book very much, so I
look forward to getting into it.
We have read your bio and ofcourse, I'm going to post the
extended bio in the show notes.
It's impressive.
But we'd like to start with aquestion that limits the amount
of space you have to tell usabout yourself.
So, if you can, what are thethree pivotal moments?
(03:19):
Personal, professional?
A combination that happened inyour life that brought you to
where you are today?
Kevin (03:26):
Great, I'd start this with.
It's the weird, awkward momentsin your life when your hair
rises on your back of your heador your arms that you start to
realize there's something there,there's some material there.
When I was a young kid, I grewup in a home that wasn't always
safe, and so I had to kind ofworry about certain situations,
(03:49):
and I could tell by the way akey was put in the door or ice
cubes in a glass, whether it bea good day or a bad day.
And at 60 pounds I didn't knowreally what to do, how to manage
those kind of situations, andfor some reason the only
instinct that came to mind wasto adjust the environment, to
turn the lights down or move thefurniture around, put some
(04:11):
music on, and I could turn adifficult situation into a great
situation.
Most people would think of thatas a kind of neurosis, but I
took that neurosis and turned itinto my career, really studying
how environment affectsbehavior.
That's my first observation.
My second everybody obsessabout style and architecture and
aesthetics and kind of what wecall talkitecture, the
(04:49):
intellectualization of design,and I often thought it was just
too much focus on those aspectsand I couldn't understand why we
weren't studying behavior?
Why aren't we looking at howpeople behave as opposed to
looking at these objects thatwe're making?
And one of my professors saidto me.
He said, you know, maybe youshould consider being a
sociologist, and I took a longpause and I thought or maybe
(05:13):
architecture should be moresociological, and that was the
birth of an idea that really ledme down a path.
My third observation happens inmy career.
In the middle of my internship,I was working on a variety of
different types of projects anda lot of my peers dreamed of
doing skyscrapers or civiccenters or fancy, you know,
(05:35):
resort hotels overlooking cliffsof Malibu, and what I couldn't
understand is why we weren'tlooking at the everyday places
of our lives.
The dry cleaners, understand,is why we weren't looking at the
everyday places of our lives,the dry cleaners, the grocery
stores, the gas stations.
Why weren't we looking at allof those types of things that we
all have contact with weeklyand why weren't we empathetic to
that situation?
(05:56):
And why are we focusing so muchin making the wealthy and the
cultural elite hipper and cooler?
Why aren't we working on what astruggling, you know person on
a limited income is trying to do?
And so early in my career of myown firm, starting with my
business partner Terry Shook, Igot a commission to do a steak
buffet chain, which doesn'tsound that exciting, you know,
(06:18):
it certainly wasn't a skyscraper.
Most of the people at thissteak buffet chain, which was a
538 unit steak buffet chain,live off fixed incomes.
So you're looking at mashedpotatoes and macaroni and cheese
and biscuits.
And I remember sitting down witha gentleman and I wrote about
this in the book.
Percy was his name, and Ilearned so much from Percy about
(06:40):
the world and I realized Icould use my talents to make his
life and his time with hisfamily and his week out on his
fixed budget so special, somemorable.
And that, to me, is what weshould be doing as designers is
fixing, addressing and enhancingthe everyday places of our
(07:00):
lives.
Because Percy told me he'd onlybeen to one museum in his life
and that was a stock car racingmuseum.
So he has no awareness ofwhat's going on at MoMA, but he
has a lot of awareness of what'sgoing on in his daily
environment and we need to fixthese things.
And what's happened to us as asociety is that we focus and
(07:20):
design so much on downtowns andso much on suburbia that we
forget all the corridors inbetween, which in almost every
city you'll see a hub and spokesystem, and we just leave that
to other people, the utilitarianpeople, which is nothing wrong
with that either.
But we can fix these places.
There's latent assets, latentcapitalism, latent opportunities
(07:41):
waiting to be developed.
Rich (07:42):
So I have to ask, because I do read the book and I'm
trying to remember the stakeplace.
Well, it was Golden Corral,golden Corral, okay.
So I was trying to remember thestory, because I was trying to.
I grew up with Ponderosa, so Iwas trying to remember and I'm
like, okay, now you know, pauland I both lived in Dallas, so
we know Pappas Brothers and I'mlike I'm not aligning it, I'm
not remembering it.
(08:03):
So yeah, Golden Claw.
Kevin (08:04):
They're amazing, by the way, pappas Brothers.
They do something amazing andyou know, ironically, for a
brief period there, which wasinitially, I got poked by my
peers about this but I was thesteak buffet king, so I went
around and did lots of steakbuffet joints.
They all started culturallyaround Western themes and so
(08:26):
fascinated, and the show Bonanzabegan.
All of these concepts, there'smany others that all come out of
that era and it speaks to howkind of television entertainment
affects culture, which affectsfood and fashion and everything.
Rich (08:42):
So you mentioned architectural.
Is this what you imagined you'dbe doing, or did you have a
different path in life?
I did not imagine.
Kevin (08:48):
I'd be doing this.
I thought I would be, you know,an architect, thinking about
all those cultural elite items.
You know, and I didn't reallyknow that I would almost take a
adversarial position with my ownprofession to say, listen, we
can do more and we need torepresent all of society.
We need to go out and reach outto the masses.
(09:10):
And it's kind of as if all thedoctors want to be plastic
surgeons, you know, and I foundmyself embracing capitalism,
which I didn't expect, and Iwork every day in capitalism and
you know there's thisassumption that architects would
(09:32):
be professionals likeaccountants or lawyers, but
really we're artists, we'retrained as artists.
And capitalism my professoragain I go back to this my
professor said that he describedthat capitalism as the enemy of
architecture and I couldn'tunderstand that.
I thought, well, we shouldstudy it like a force, like we
study termites or earthquakes orwind, and it's a force on
(09:55):
society and we need tounderstand it.
And you know, our presidents,our leaders of our world, are
always talking about GDP andrevenue and income and gross
domestic product.
These are the things that wefocus on and design and our
built environment has to relateto that.
Rich (10:11):
So I'm going to turn it over to Paul in a second.
But I have to ask from a rewardperspective.
You know you mentioned ROI andwe are driven by capitalism, and
if you don't pay the bills, wecan't pay salaries, and so
that's extraordinarily important.
And if you don't pay the bills,we can't pay salaries, and so
that's extraordinarily important.
And when you look at yourexperience with Pappas Brothers,
but then with Golden Corral,was there a moment where you
(10:33):
went into a Golden Corral andjust felt proud?
Kevin (10:37):
Absolutely yeah.
When the owner of well, hewasn't the owner, he was the
president of the chain and hewas also president of National
Restaurant Association.
At the end of the job hebrought me in and I thought he'd
be blown away that we haddoubled the income of their
average unit.
We built many of these thingsand we were doubling it.
Normal Golden Corral would do$38,000 to $42,000 a week.
(10:57):
Ours were doing $89,000 to$92,000 a week.
I thought that's what he'd talkabout and he didn't.
He said just hang on a secondand don't talk.
And so I didn't say anythingand I was like I don't hear
anything and he goes.
That's what I want you tonotice.
He said the customer istreating us better.
He said before it sounded like,you know, a rambunctious
(11:20):
cafeteria, but now it soundslike a place where people are
really bonding, having a goodtime and I felt that difference
that we could make.
Paula (11:29):
Number one.
Thank you for yourvulnerability, because it's not
often that you see leaders thatare willing to talk about how
their upbringing shaped them, soit really does mean a lot.
So thank you first and foremost.
Kevin (11:40):
Thank you.
Paula (11:41):
I love how Rich left me to the expertise questions,
because usually I do the firstpart, but I do want to ask
something which is serving theseunderserved populations.
You talk about how all of yourcolleagues, all your peers, were
going for these.
Of course, these beautifullandscapes, these beautiful
backgrounds, these skyscrapersin these major cities, but you
(12:02):
decided to focus on underservedareas, so places that we visit.
How difficult was that for youto explain to people?
Because when you're the firstone to do something, not a lot
of people understand your vision.
Kevin (12:16):
Yeah, what was even harder?
Great question, I mean.
And what was even harder wasnow it's kind of obvious, but in
1989, 88, moving up to 92 whenwe started our firm what was
much harder was to think about.
Maybe social science has a lotof ideas and I say psychology,
sociology, cultural anthropology.
(12:37):
Maybe they have a lot of ideasthat real estate developers and
retail tenants could benefitfrom.
Real estate developers andretail tenants could benefit
from.
Also combining branding which ismuch more common now but wasn't
at the time with design, andstarting to think about breaking
down the silos, because all ofthose disciplines have very
strict language, and creating awhole new language and getting
(13:00):
out of that language thatarchitects have or sociologists
have or brand strategists have,and really thinking about two
critical things that I'll jumpto, and that is the senses first
is one of the mostmisunderstood, under educated
aspects of retail leaders,business leaders and designers.
So that's shocking is how oursenses help us shape our world.
(13:24):
In fact, there's no idea that'sin your head that doesn't first
come through your senses.
When we describe people asslick, hard-headed, rough on the
edges, it's our senses thatdefine that.
A baby learns through theirsenses first.
Our smell is our most powerfulsense.
A third of our brain isdedicated to our visual sense.
We don't control our eyes,they're involuntary.
(13:44):
So starting with the senses andthen going into perceptions,
which are shaped a lot bysociological and psychological
aspects, and eventually gettingto the design, that was a hard
sell in the beginning.
And so what did I have to do?
And my team and I went to dosome case studies and in fact
that informed.
Our whole approach was doingcase studies proving that
(14:07):
environment affects behavior.
That was my thesis in college.
I should have started with thatand that.
Paula (14:13):
Well, that's helpful.
Kevin (14:14):
How does environment affect behavior?
I hope that that was a hardsell and it's hard to build a
business around that, but wejust kept doing and building
this case study around it andeventually the clients started
recognizing hey, this is a newway to compete.
This gives us a competitiveadvantage over just
straightforward design.
(14:34):
Too much of the retail and realestate world focuses on the
literal.
They look at a building andthey all debate aesthetically do
you like that, do you not likethat?
Instead of really looking atwhat's happening underneath us.
And so one of the questions youmight ask is why aren't we more
aware of our behaviors?
And the reason we're not moreaware of our behavior is it
(14:57):
takes too much energy.
We're running off about a60-watt light bulb all day to
power us through all the thingswe have to do Get the kids ready
, run out the door, drive ourcar, go through a parking lot,
deal with weather, get in theoffice All of those things wear
us down.
They take energy and caloricenergy, and so our brains
(15:17):
delegates, our body delegates.
It says, hey, I don't want todeal with this, and it delegates
that to our senses, and thesenses have a just like your
dreams have a different way ofthinking.
Your senses do, and the sensesare looking for two primary
things enhancements andimpediments to life.
It's looking for things thatare dangerous and things that
will help us.
The second you could.
You could be walking down astreet with thousands of people
(15:40):
and a ball flies out of the airoff of a high rise building.
Your brain will detect it andyou'll either stand to catch it
or move out of the way.
It's a fascinating process.
We can't teach computers torecognize it as well as a human
body can, because the body hasthousands of years of getting
ready.
So that ability is notunderstood anywhere near enough
(16:01):
in real estate.
So when I go meet with a malldeveloper, it says we don't
understand why it's not working.
We go into let's start with thesenses.
Let's get that right.
Then let's go to behaviors andperceptions and decision-making.
Paula (16:13):
I love that because the more sophisticated we get, the
more we realize that it reallyis.
It comes down to those primalfeelings and primal, just the
basics of life.
I hate to simplify it that much.
It sounds simple but it's noteasy.
Kevin (16:28):
Yeah, understanding what motivates people is very hard
and you know it's ironic theplaces you can learn from.
But but a boxer understandsbehavior better than anyone and
I've met with boxers that saywho can just tear you apart in
the ring.
They say, in the ring they go,I'm going to turn you into my
assistant and what they mean isthey're going to get you.
(16:48):
So they hit you on the left.
A kickboxer is even faster.
They hit you on the left.
What do you do?
You move to the right, but theyalready know you're going to
move to the right.
And then they hit you that wayand they know you're going to
move back to the left estateworld we're just trying to
survive against big retailgiants and tech disruptors.
(17:10):
So if we can understandbehavior, it gives us a huge
advantage on how to createplaces that convene and create
the kinds of behaviors we want.
Standard kind of assignmentsover the last 33 years is fixing
projects that aren't working.
I'll go to these entitieswho've spent you know I'm not
(17:31):
kidding 300 million, 600 million, over a billion dollars to
build a large structure, say abig mall.
And they'll say you know, wedon't understand it.
We hired the best design firms,we built this award-winning
project, but it's not performingthe way we want.
Oftentimes, what is not clearis what is the behavior you
wanted?
And when I ask leaders anddesigners what type of behaviors
(17:53):
you want, they go.
What do you mean?
We want people to come here andI'm like what time, what day?
How long do you want them tostay?
What do you want them to lookat?
Do you want them to talk topeople?
Not talk to people?
And the more specific you getas an organization on the types
of behaviors you want, the moreyou can design to those
behaviors.
And that sounds, as you saidearlier, awfully simplistic.
(18:14):
But a lot of times what happensis we build it, we watch people
come and we go.
Huh, did that work?
It's like well, of course itdoesn't work.
What do I want to see out of myaudience that I'm trying to
attract, convene and get toengage in my environment?
Rich (18:30):
Well, and this is parallel , but I was interviewing someone
, the head of design for anorganization I was working with,
and he talked about killing aproject that or restarting I
should say a project, because itwas done very elegantly,
award-winning, but it didn'tachieve what the goal was from a
(18:53):
customer perspective.
And I remember him saying itwasn't about winning an award,
it was about winning the heartof the customer.
And I hired him because itmattered.
And I almost hate to jump tothis question so soon because I
want to delve further into thephysical, but we're living in an
age where digital convenienceis on the rise.
(19:15):
How is that going to impact andwhat role will it play in our
physical gathering places,stores, markets, town centers,
et cetera?
Kevin (19:25):
Yeah, and I'll respond to something you said.
Just to tee that up is that asa young intern and I keep
wanting to reiterate here, foryour audience particularly, that
I didn't have anything figuredout in my life I was just an
obsessive observer, neuroticobserver, and would just decode
and look at all kinds ofpatterns.
(19:46):
And when I was working as anintern I'd watch people go to a
meeting and try to get a clientto do something really exciting.
Run back to their desk afterthe meeting and start drawing
Doodling is what designers do.
So they draw all these littlesketches.
And what drove me crazy was Iwas like you're developing a
solution which you haven'tdefined the problem.
So a classic symptom that wesee is you said it earlier the
(20:09):
elegant solution in search of aproblem to solve.
But I think the more profoundthe problem is, the more
profound your answer will be,and all of us have had that
experience.
We've gone to a doctor whodiagnosed a problem that we're
having, didn't give us asolution, but we felt better
just because they did such agood job diagnosing the problem.
There's a lot of value in beingexceedingly clear.
(20:31):
So we have a test in ouroffices Can we give our client a
big aha just in defining theproblem.
Can we do that now?
And that we are living in thisvery linear, concrete way all
the way around on so many thingsright regarding money and
(20:52):
income, and we're getting whatwe want.
As humans, we have one coredriver that is to acquire things
at the least amount of effortexpense possible.
That is a core driver.
But once we get those needs met, then we have other needs,
which is to bond, to mate, toget the respect of our peers, to
(21:13):
learn to find spirituality, andso what I'm recommending, and
have been recommending for thelast 33 years with my clients,
is we cannot get into thecommodity aspects.
We're not going to win thatbattle.
We weren't going to win it wayback with Walmart.
The commodity aspects we're notgoing to win that battle.
We weren't going to win it wayback with Walmart.
But we can win the social blisspart, the surprise, the delight
(21:33):
, the joy.
Amazon may have a monopoly onprice, but they don't have a
monopoly on joy, and socialbliss is a quality that we
really need in society and it'ssomething people are willing to
pay for.
We see it all the time right.
It's inefficient.
We live in this era where wethink friction is the enemy.
Some friction is good, somefriction, some challenges of
(21:55):
going to a party or going to anevent and go well.
This is not the most efficientway, yet there's something
really powerful about it.
Dating online is trying to getas frictionless and
transactional as it can get, butit's not near as profound as
going to an event you didn'twant to go to and bumping into
somebody who ends up becomingyour wife or husband.
I met my wife in baggage claim,so think of that a very
(22:18):
inefficient way to meet a humanbeing on a flight that I missed
and was irritated, and met thelove of my life in baggage claim
.
Paula (22:24):
That's very sweet.
I actually did leave.
I met my husband through Bumble, but it was the physical
encounter, so the first time wemet, that was it.
Kevin (22:34):
I saw him in the conversation and yeah, well, it
ultimately had to go to a place.
Paula (22:39):
Exactly, you have to have .
Yeah.
Kevin (22:42):
It ultimately has to go to a place because we are wired
that way.
Paula (22:45):
Yeah.
Kevin (22:46):
And while we can do all kinds of things online, the way
we actually get to know peopleis very universal and it's very
profound.
We don't talk to people fromthe back of our head or side of
our head.
We walk a certain way.
These are the things that arevery interesting, and if you
watch couples which we do a lotI'm a professional voyeur.
We should have said that upfront and that we watch people
(23:06):
on dates Very common exercisefor us to go.
What happens to people and howdo they meet?
One of the things we study inall the environments we look at
with our clients is where inyour venue are people most
likely to talk to a stranger andwhere are they least likely to
talk to a stranger?
Because we're trying to figureout how the environment either
(23:27):
encourages or facilitates socialinteraction versus places that
don't.
And so, just as a quick, easyanswer, you know it's
fascinating how many people willtalk to each other at the
butcher department or at theseafood department, how they
won't talk to each other in theaisles, and they definitely
don't like to talk to each otherat checkout, except to complain
about the cashier who's justleft.
(23:49):
And though you know the tendency, of course the knee-jerk
reaction is just make checkoutfaster.
But it's not really aboutmaking it faster, it's about
reducing the anxiety of checkout.
Checkout is a malfunction zonewhere we have aisles dead-ending
to a checkout where people lineup with 250 cart that you get
very upset if that cart touchesyour butt or if there's too big
(24:11):
of a gap, and then, on top ofeverything else, we create a
road cutting across checkout.
So think about the standardModel T grocery store that we
won't change All the aislesdead-end to a crossroad.
That is, of course, going tofail.
That would be like having atoll highway with a residential
road cutting across it.
This social anxiety creates alot of high tension in people
(24:33):
and they don't feel good abouttalking to other people except
to complain or to say close thegap.
And so we're trying, if wechange that experience, to make
the environment less stressful,people behave better and enjoy
their time you know it'sinteresting.
Rich (24:48):
One of the things that I enjoy most is to go into one of
our stores, sit in the commonarea and just work, because I do
well, with a lot of noise butnot a lot of people bothering me
.
It's one of those sensorythings and I like hearing the
conversations, I like seeingwhat people stop at and what
(25:11):
they see.
One of the learnings from COVIDwas, as we were getting back to
normal, we obviously had totake our food courts and
decompress the space and offermore social distancing, and,
because you still had capacityissues and we have some larger
stores, we would put seatingareas in the hallways, in the
(25:38):
main foyer area.
In observing it, what we foundwas that we had people that now
wanted to come in and sit anddidn't feel rushed like they
would in a crammed food court,and when they did that, they had
a tendency to meet with otherpeople and grab something and
spend more time in the store,and so we kind of defaulted our
way into a more human experienceinstead of that crammed food
court.
Kevin (25:57):
Which happens often, by the way, and I think this
post-pandemic period, theimmediate part, if you studied
what was happening to people,they didn't remember their
birthdays, they didn't rememberspecial days, and that's because
every single day was the sameday.
And as humans we need varietyand we actually need sensory
stimulation, no different than adog needs to go out, and a lot
(26:18):
of time.
A dog doesn't need to go outnecessarily to exercise.
All that it needs to go out toactivate its senses, to smell.
It's a very important part ofdogs is smelling, smelling their
neighborhood.
We as humans need the samething and if every day is the
same day, our memories becomeundifferentiated and we don't
remember what happens, whathappens to older people.
So a lot of older people haveundifferentiated memories.
(26:41):
But the danger that we've hadit's kind of like death by a
thousand cuts with nobody,nobody trying to do anything
evil.
But if we're spending seven,eight hours in front of a screen
and teens are approaching ahigher level, that is generally
seven, eight hours of a limitednumber of wake hours, that we're
not interacting with otherpeople, that we're not
(27:01):
socializing with other people,and this has a big impact on us
and so it is so rewarding.
When you go to a food court oryou go to anywhere, really, like
I said, baggage claim and youhave a relationship with
somebody, you connect with them.
It's very therapeutic, it's animportant quality and so you
know, I want to keep relatingthis back to the real world and
(27:22):
getting down to the ROI, what Ishow my clients.
I start when I when I mentionedmy internship years, my
internship years were workingfor a mall design firm.
Okay, so I was designing mallsand designing a lot of food
courts for all the you know bigdevelopers, and back then we
used to develop the anchortenants and the socialization
that happened there was aby-product of developing the
(27:44):
deliberate anchors.
Now it's the other way around.
Now, to create a place that hasthe power to convene, you have
to actually make socializationthe product.
You have to say, hey, I willcreate a physically, socially
and emotionally safe for you tocome around and wander around,
like you've seen in those oldfilms where people just wandered
around, be around other humanbeings and feel like you can
(28:06):
connect with them or not connectwith them.
What you described is a perfectthing that we see all the time
of people saying I don't want totalk to anyone, but I want to
be around people and some peoplesaying, no, I want to talk to
people and it's okay to approachthem.
Those types of behaviors arevery powerful.
And so with my clients, we'resaying you have to develop a
social value proposition, can'tjust be a literal value
(28:27):
proposition, because you'regoing to get beat on the
commoditizing aspects.
The second you have a place.
You're already inefficientbecause now we have to deal with
parking, we got to deal withescalators and elevators, so you
have to create a bigger payoff.
You might remember from the book, we use a statement called the
work payoff ratio and so, nomatter what venue we're going to
(28:48):
, we try to evaluate where themoments that a human feels like
they have to work I mentionedself-checkout or a regular
checkout, either one.
Those are moments where humanshave to work.
They're not enjoying their time, but they may go to a walk
station or a pizza station wherethere's activity and that is
enjoyment.
We're generally trying to breakdown where do people have work
(29:09):
and where do they have joy.
The ideal goal is to create amuch higher payoff than the
amount of work it takes, and sowhen a customer is going well, I
can buy it online withoutgetting out of my pajamas and
staying on the couch, or I candrive down to that place.
So what do I get?
And the customer is very smartgoing how do I win?
How do I win by going to yourplace?
(29:29):
It cannot be price, variety orconvenience.
It's not enough.
You generally have to deliversome type of emotional, social
payoff.
Paula (29:37):
I've got two questions.
One's about your book, but themore pressing question is so
what is going on with mall?
What is your solution to themall?
Is going on with malls?
Kevin (29:47):
What is your solution to the mall?
Well, you know it's interesting.
When I first started working atthis mall design firm, my Dutch
uncle came to me and said youknow, he was in the real estate
industry and he said you shouldget out of this.
Malls are dying.
That was in 1987.
I'm still here in 2025 andthey're still telling me malls
(30:07):
are dying and they have thinneddown.
There's no doubt they'vethinned down, but we're still
working on malls and we're stilldoing them and, in fact, the
younger generation is the onethat is resurrecting malls.
That's what's surprising.
They're the ones coming back.
I think the terminology mall iswhat gets us really tripped up,
because we think of Fast Towntowns, of Ridgemont High, we
(30:29):
think of this thing which reallywe call a form and shape.
Human beings know what aconvenience store looks like, we
know what a department storelooks like, we know what a
coffee shop looks like.
We're really good at that, andso we've kind of got stuck in
this idea of what a mall lookslike, which was generally big,
giant walls, department, nowindows, no being seen, you know
(30:49):
, from the outside, and that isa turnoff to people right now.
We got too much of that.
But a better way to think aboutit is as a central marketplace
and the idea of a centralmarketplace where strangers to
each other can come together andmeander around.
Come together and meanderaround, learn about what's going
(31:10):
on, talk about the fashion ofthe times, enjoy some food,
maybe bump into their neighborsor somebody they've never met
before to see the other.
This central market idea isthousands of years old.
Whether you call it a bazaar,ancient Agora or a mall, that is
universal.
Now, I think the thing thatdevelopers need to do is be
aware of the signals that datedmalls send out.
(31:32):
You know, without getting toodeep in this, there's been eras
in my life my short life wherewe had buildings that didn't
have many windows.
You've seen those buildings,that little what we call gun
turret windows.
That was an era where we wanteddark buildings and old
steakhouses and stuff, becausewe liked that.
Now we've gone to thistransparent look.
We want to see what a building,what's going on in a building,
(31:55):
from the outside.
Malls aren't great at that.
There's many other reasonsthey're not working.
They're trying to be toostylistically, aesthetically hip
, as opposed to being more likea village or a town.
Authentically hip as opposed tobeing more like a village or a
town.
When I go to most communities Idon't see in the surveys that
(32:17):
consumers saying we need a mall,but the one thing we see over
and over is they go.
We wish we had a village or atown.
And what's the differencebetween a village and a town and
a mall?
It really has to do with howthe forms and shapes work and
how people interact.
Paula (32:27):
Community centers.
People still need and wantcommunity centers.
Kevin (32:31):
Yes.
Paula (32:32):
In your book Irreplaceable.
It makes the case that greatplaces can't be replicated by
formula.
In a world where so many brandstry to copy what's working
elsewhere, what core ingredientsactually make a place
irreplaceable, and how canbrands or leaders avoid falling
into the trap of sameness?
Kevin (32:50):
Let's start with the sameness part.
I think one of the things we doand I'm guilty of it I speak at
a lot of conferences and I goto a lot of conferences we end
up learning all the bestpractices of what everybody else
is doing and we share thosethings.
And the next thing you knoweverybody's doing that we're all
doing the same thing and infact, we're over delivering to
the customer.
We're giving the customer allthese benefits without always
(33:13):
getting a premium for thosebenefits, and so I think, just
like humans, I think an entityhas to dig into themselves and
say what makes me unique, whatmakes me a proprietary?
The more awkward you startedout we talked about this before
the show the more eccentric thebetter.
I work with a Mexican grocerystore chain that is off the
(33:37):
charts successful, 600% increasein sales, over 40 stores, what
they do and this new concept iscalled Mercado and it's done by
Northgate Market in Costa Mesa,california.
When I first met with them, myteam and I and we started
looking at their stores, and youknow, most of my clients are
like patients that come to meand they know something's not
(33:58):
right with their body, butthey're not sure what it is.
So when they came to me,they're like we're not sure
we're heading down the rightpath and you know, we want to
know what you think.
My observation was stopprofessionalizing, stop doing
what you're seeing at theconferences.
They were becoming more like aregular grocery store team and
they said well, what should wedo?
And this was after hearing lotsof information from them.
(34:20):
I really encouraged them todouble down on being Mexican.
Create an authentic Mexicanmercado.
That will be your differenceand that that sounds obvious,
but it was a big dare.
This, the concept in Costa Mesa, is unbelievable.
It is an experience I encourageeveryone.
I'll guarantee you I'll payyour money back If you go there
(34:42):
and don't have a phenomenal time.
That's where you don't.
You know and I will say thisthat we designed that concept
right after the pandemic, I meanwhile it was happening and they
said click and collect is thefuture of grocery stores, the
retail apocalypse here andthere'll be no more stores and
tech is the only way to go.
What did we do?
We tripled down on the humanexperience.
(35:04):
We have a bar, we have a lot ofrestaurant seating and these
customers this is a perfectexample of looking at this issue
of convenience versussocializing.
Customers go to Mercado two andthree times a week, sometimes
twice a day, and they don'tthink of it as a chore.
They think of it as a greatsocial payoff.
(35:24):
Chore, they think of it as agreat social payoff.
It's really about having theaudacity to do this different,
this thing that the industryisn't doing and we can all name
the big national, internationalgrocery store chains that could
build 50 of these but instead,what are they doing?
They're trying to merge andlower prices to get into some
slugfest where there is nowinner, or I should say there'll
(35:46):
be two winners.
There'll be two winners andeverybody else will be a loser.
Rich (35:51):
Yeah, the first to market and then the one that perfects
it and maybe brings it down, andthen afterwards you're going to
have the laggards.
And it's interesting you saythat because in my classes what
I will often get is the defaultanswer when students are putting
together the strategies of abrand needs to add more tech,
they need to add more AI, theyneed to lean in.
(36:11):
And when you ask in a differentdiscussion board, tell me about
a brand that you love, a retailstore or grocery that you love
going to.
A significant percentage ofthem will mention Trader Joe's
and my answer will be okay.
Think a percentage of them willmention Trader Joe's and my
answer will be okay.
Where are their self-checkouts?
Where is their digital signage?
Where is their Urban correct?
(36:32):
No delivery, and at some pointthey may have to evolve that
much like everything evolves.
I'm going to ask a personalquestion and hopefully not set
myself up in the process, butyou mentioned Bazaars and Agoras
and the shopping mall and Ithought you were going to say
the shopping mall is dead.
Long lived the shopping mall,but in a different context, and
(36:53):
I love the marketplace idea.
Are you a historian?
Kevin (36:58):
Yes, particularly in architecture, but how cities are
formed and how they evolve, andyou know what made them work
and why does one city do betterthan another city?
Rich (37:08):
Why do you think it's important to understand the
history and the evolution of, inyour case, architecture or
commerce or human behavior?
Kevin (37:20):
You will see how that's.
The most fascinating part isthe center of civilization.
The common assumption,particularly among the elites,
is that it was the church or thegovernment that was the center
of most civilizations.
But it was actually the bazaar,the market, the trade, and
trade has always been there andwhen you look at places that
(37:40):
succeed, it's because of trade.
Historically, geography playeda big role.
A port, a valley, a mountain, acrossroad, those things played
a big role.
But you can create geography,you can create artificial
geographies.
La is one giant artificialgeography.
That to me is fascinating, therole that trade plays in a
(38:00):
thriving life.
Now, I think the fear a lot ofpeople have is when they assume
it's the only thing.
It is not the only thing.
It is one aspect of asuccessful city in the history
of cities.
But we can all think of thirdwell, cities that were once
famous, that are no longer atthe top of their peak because
they tempered trade and temperedcommerce and didn't evolve with
(38:21):
it.
Rich (38:22):
Yeah, and to a certain extent we've gone from public
punishment and scorn to Easterbunnies and Santa Claus is the
draw.
Yes, but there's always beenthat center of successful cities
and communities that drewpeople together, where you got
your news.
You were able to pick upwhatever wares you needed,
(38:44):
whether it was from a localvendor or from someone traveling
from faraway places.
You would listen to politiciansand philosophers.
Kevin (38:51):
As it relates to that and I think you'll connect with
this and again, I'm prettysteeped in my own industry of
architecture.
But if you look at a lot of themost famous old buildings that
they're trying to bring life to,whether they're office workers
or housing people living intheir institutions, the reason
(39:11):
those places don't work is theydon't have newsstands or they
don't have coffee shops or theydon't have cafes.
And the easiest thing to do tofix a place is to bring that
activity in, because you willsee daily people coming and
going.
It can be even something assimple as a dry cleaner.
That conversation you have witha dry cleaner starts to help
you understand other people,other values, other cultures,
(39:33):
and we all have these routines,right.
We all have these places we goto regularly, where we talk to
people, whether it is a cashieror another person, and that's
what animates life is trade.
In some ways, trade is a deviceMuch in the way.
Going to a bar or going to arestaurant to pay the amount of
money we pay for a drinksometimes makes no sense, right?
(39:55):
A beer can be eight to,sometimes twelve dollars in a
bar.
That is completely irrational.
But one of the reasons peopledo.
That is to say it's a device toallow me to now be next to
other people.
Maybe I'll have a conversation,maybe I won't.
The real question to ask iswhat happens when we don't do
that?
What happens when we don't goout and meet the other, which is
happening statistically?
(40:16):
It started happening before thepandemic and started happening
after.
Going back to this, how manyhours we're kind of distracted
on a device?
When we stop going out andbumping into other people, we
start distrusting more.
We start seeing people asenemies.
It's a dangerous factor, and soretail plays a very vital role
in getting people to cometogether around basic things
(40:39):
lawnmowers or lemons.
Rich (40:42):
But I think the danger for brand and you have indicated a
couple of times in thisconversation the danger is when
brands and retailers, grocers etcetera, get lulled into
believing that the actions thata consumer is taking for
convenience is actually loyaltyand they don't continue to
evolve the atmosphere or involvethe engagement, the experience.
(41:05):
I won't name brands, but thereare three or four that would
roll off the tongue right.
Kevin (41:10):
Yeah, it's a no holds barred competition out there,
and so I will tell you up frontI don't expect, want any
handouts from any entity to makelife more social.
We have to prove that the powerof coming together has value.
Period.
We have to prove the value ofbuildings have value.
Now I do that day in and dayout.
(41:30):
The track record I have forconvening people and building
businesses that are not justdoing well but are mega
successful around physical placeis unparalleled.
We have to prove that every day, that this can work, and what I
like about it for my clients isthey don't get themselves into
this horribly low marginslugfest.
(41:53):
They're able to enjoy betterpremiums by giving better
product.
Paula (41:57):
I have a lot of questions .
Kevin (41:59):
You sure?
Paula (42:00):
I mean so many more questions than we have time for.
I don't even know where tobegin.
I'm just going to shoot themoff and then you tell me which
one you want to answer.
The one is about you said wewant to trade, so that's what
people want to do.
I can see a community centerwhere we trade stories, but what
do you think about the futureof retail?
How are we making those trades?
(42:20):
I see these luxury brandsputting restaurants in their
retail center to get people tostay longer and they're trying
to create this environment andsometimes they win.
You know, sometimes it'ssuccessful and sometimes it's
just awkward.
But what's the trade there?
How do we create these spacesof trade and what is that trade
now in this new digital economy?
Kevin (42:39):
That's a great one and you know it is a common thing to
try to say let's put arestaurant inside our space or
bar or cafe.
They're a lot harder to makework than you realize and they
have to be a priority.
They can't be this tangentialthing that you're going to throw
a little effort at.
They have to be very successful.
(42:59):
They have to understand thehuman dynamics again of why
would somebody pay dollars or$14 for a cocktail to go.
What are they getting for that?
And so it is a.
It is no different than makinga film.
You have to really break thespace down into scenes and the
scene as a beginning and amiddle and an end.
There has to be drama.
There has to be a value.
(43:20):
Something has to happen forthat individual to have a payoff
to go.
This is worth paying thispremium.
It is a common exercise for usto go in and put a restaurant
type of venue inside a retailspace.
But we're very clear with ourclients pack your lunch.
This is not easy.
This is a very difficultassignment.
When I go, look at the placesthat don't work.
(43:43):
It's because they got secondarytertiary treatment.
Places that don't work, it'sbecause they got secondary
tertiary treatment.
I think something that might tieinto some of your thoughts here
as well is I think we're asociety obsessed right now with
what's new.
That seems to be everything onour mind, and if I go to one
more conference where 80% of thelectures are on AI, it's just
(44:03):
we're all chasing the same puckagain, and when, instead of
asking what's new, a betterquestion to ask is what are
consumers missing?
This is what we ask them.
We go around regularly and wantto understand, not what are
they, what's the shiny newobject, but what are they
missing in their lives?
And day in and day out,customers say I miss having
neighbors, I miss socializing, Imiss connecting to people,
(44:27):
despite all the advances and theconveniences and the speed we
have.
This is what people aresearching for, and so a
restaurant or a bar venue oreven a retail venue has this
opportunity to bring peopletogether.
A farmer's market does itincredibly well, right?
It's not really about thefreshness of the products at a
farmer's market.
It is really about walkingaround and bumping into people.
Paula (44:49):
Authentic connection.
Kevin (44:51):
It is one of our great crisis of our era and you know,
behind that and this getsawfully esoteric is we have a
crisis of meaning.
You know where people aretrying to figure out.
Religion is not playing thesame role it used to.
It should, but it's not.
We need more places of worshipof all denominations, because
(45:11):
those were places that broughtpeople together in safe ways and
to take care of each other.
They had an important role insociety and still do.
Our institutions outside ofreligious institutions, but
educational institutions aren'table to do the things they used
to do, and so a lot of thingshave fallen on retail, but now
that's been commoditized.
(45:32):
But when we talk to customersover and over, they're telling
us we finally, you know, havegot to a tipping point where
customers are telling us they'rebored of just pushing a button
and buying from a list the samepurchase order over and over.
Right, how many times you go toyour grocery list and it's the
exact same thing.
That makes life pretty boring.
We're looking for a variety,and I'm actually shocked that
(45:55):
online entities haven't figuredout a better way to get people
to have spontaneous purchases,but, other than bribing them to
do it, they haven't had as muchsuccess with that.
Paula (46:06):
They're looking for efficiency, that's it, and they
forget Again.
I mean, that's a fantasticreminder Don't go to where
everyone else is going.
Don't follow the shiny objectGo to where these underserved
places are.
Under-asked questions.
And those are the real gems.
Kevin (46:23):
You know it's interesting , I have a 7-year-old daughter,
just turned seven years old.
I'm kind of late in my life tohave another child.
Paula (46:31):
It's never too late.
Kevin (46:33):
When she was five and really four, about four and a
half five during the pandemic.
Going back a little bit, shewas kind of a homebody.
She liked to stay at home allday and getting her to go places
she'd be like why, why do wehave to do it?
When we were at the restaurant,she couldn't understand why it
took so long to get the food.
She's like I don't understandwhy it takes so long.
(46:53):
But I had a wild idea.
I said let's take her to amovie.
And she had never been to acinema so it's hard to imagine
that.
Right, I took her to the movieand she dangled her feet off the
chair and got a big bag ofpopcorn.
She's somewhat shy.
She had the best time and wasdancing down the aisle as we
went and became this differenthuman being.
I remember telling my wife Iwas like who is this?
(47:15):
And we got in the car and shemade me promise that I would
take her to the movie more oftenand now we go three times a
month.
She just loves going to themovie theater and think, think
about it.
It's not efficient, it's noteasy, she has to dress up, she
has to do certain things, butit's just something about that
primal storytelling, bondingexperience, right, and these are
(47:36):
things we cannot deny.
But I thought of all people.
I thought as a child she's notgoing to see the value in that.
Say the way I do, in nostalgicways, but she sees the value in
that.
Paula (47:46):
That's beautiful.
Kevin (47:54):
Let's go to the best advice you've ever received.
Wow, what is the best adviceI've ever received?
You know I was talking earlierabout this steak buffet chain
and I remember asking Percyabout some of the marketing
slogans and stuff that were onsigns in the building that said
things like home cooking andthings like that he said the
funniest thing to me.
(48:14):
He said I don't even notice thatsign.
It means nothing to me.
He said if I can't touch it, itain't real.
That stuck in my head.
That was early in my career.
If I can't touch it, it ain'treal.
Had that was early in my career.
If I can't touch it, it ain'treal.
So whenever I'm working on aproject and almost all projects
have these inside advantagesfrom the client that can be
things like heritage or familyor community.
(48:35):
But I'm like, how do I touchcommunity?
How do I touch heritage?
And so the assignment I give myhighly creative staff is we
have to manifest esoteric ideasand tangible experiential
mediums where people can touchit, and we give ourselves about
two seconds to get an ideaacross.
In a store we spend a lot oftime studying how the human eye
(48:56):
works, which is one of yourfirst senses that gets on site.
And I don't have 10 minutes.
I don't even have enough timeto ask somebody to read
something other than one bigtitle.
But really we're trying toevoke feelings.
Now we have a system in ourcompany which is seven layers.
We call it signage, but it'sreally.
It's queuing and triggering.
It's seven layers of that, andso we start with the evocative
(49:19):
and we go all the way down tothe whisper which happens at
about six inches from thecustomer.
That's the best advice I'veever heard.
If I can't touch it, it ain'treal.
So whatever you're trying toget across to somebody, make
sure they can touch it.
Rich (49:33):
That's a good one.
So, with the job market the wayit is, what is the single best
piece of advice you think youcan give high school students,
college students, those in theearly stages of their career?
Give high school students,college students, those in the
early stages of their career inwhat is an ever-changing new
normal.
Kevin (49:50):
Well, I, will sound very extreme in this, but I've had
this belief all my life.
I think we delude ourselveswhen we chase happiness.
I think happiness is a myth.
I read Brad Pitt one time saidthat it is an illusion for him
even, and I'm thinking, my gosh,he is everything anybody could
ever ask for.
I think what's more importantand I'm just going to speak
frank to you is find out whatpisses you off.
(50:12):
Find out what makes you mad.
Find out what you'd cut anotherman's ear off over, what you'd
fight for, because that is whatyou'll do for free.
I remember I don't know why Iuse this as a test, but if
you've ever had to go to adinner you didn't want to go to
and your spouse said you got tocome to this dinner, You're like
, okay, and you've kind of makethese blackmail kind of things.
(50:32):
You're like, all right, I'm notgoing to talk, Just going to
let you know.
And you don't talk untilsomebody says that that upsets
you.
And then that is the territorythat I recommend everybody
explore, and I don't think it'san immediate answer.
I don't think you see somethingthat you'd fight for and go.
That's what I should do.
I think it's a clue that startshitting down a path.
So for me that hint was I knowarchitects that will fight about
(50:56):
schools or parking decks.
They will fight about civiccenters and courthouses.
I don't.
But what I would fight overearly in my career was the way a
restaurant was designed.
It drove me crazy when somebodywould design a restaurant bad.
Or if a restaurant didn't careabout taking care of its
customers, didn't care about itssilverware or its glasses or
(51:18):
the napkins or the hostess stand.
Those things mattered to me andI was surprised.
I felt that come up in me.
I never did anything, I didn'tcut anyone's ear off over it, I
didn't fight, but I realizedthere's something about it, and
so when I did my firstrestaurant, it became one of the
top 10 restaurant designs inthe United States, won all kinds
of awards, and it was naturalfor me me and you have to get
(51:47):
down to what is it you'rewilling to fight for, and I
won't get into the details.
I, you know, I just dreamed ofthe enchanted evening as a kid,
because all I ever saw on TVwere these, these old places
where people are going tococktails.
I'd never had a cocktail, butI'd saw everybody dressed up.
My parents were gone and I waslike, oh, I'm going to draw that
place.
Each of us has that kernel,that nugget inside us and it's
(52:08):
normally in some kind of weirdor odd behavior.
It comes out in your kids.
It's the odd things that theydo that really make them
something.
Rich (52:18):
I think that is excellent advice and advice that everyone
should eat.
Okay, I'm going to start us offwith the rapid.
What is it?
The rapid round?
Paula (52:27):
Rapid fire.
That's how stressed you areOkay.
Rich (52:31):
So I'm actually going to put you in a place.
I'm going to put you in agolden corral.
Okay, you're in a golden corral.
You can invite any three peopleto dinner.
They can be living or past,they can be factual or fiction.
Who would those?
Kevin (52:45):
three people be Wow.
Well, I'd love to bring CarlJung.
What I love about him is thathe understood that psychology
isn't just some linear thing,that it has mystical qualities
and soulful qualities andreligious dimensions, and in my
book I really talk about aconcept he talked about, which
is participation, mystique,which means what it's like to be
(53:07):
around other people and there'ssome kind of energy.
I would bring John Prine, oneof my favorite singers and
songwriters, because he has away of capturing life stories in
such powerful mediums thatthey're just amazing.
And it's going to sound like anodd one, but I would bring Coco
(53:28):
Chanel.
I think she's pretty amazing asan individual.
I would like to have aconversation with how she
pioneered her fashion approach.
Paula (53:36):
All right, favorite comfort food.
Kevin (53:40):
I say this over and over, but there is nothing better
than cornbread and grits.
I'm from the South and so whenI go to South Carolina or North
Carolina, cornbread and grits orshrimp and grits, I just it's
everything to me.
I could just live off of it.
Paula (53:56):
It's a good.
Rich (53:56):
Southern man yes, and so I'm going to take the last
question and head to travel.
You can go anywhere in theworld for 24 hours.
You can go thereinstantaneously, come back
instantaneously.
Only I had that power.
Where in the world would you gofor 24 hours?
Kevin (54:17):
Istanbul and go to the markets there, and I'm going to
go next month.
I love learning from themerchants, I think, like a lot
of things.
I'll make it this simple.
You know I dare a lot ofarchitects to name one modern
city that works and theystruggle.
You know Frank Lloyd Wright hadideas, corbu had ideas.
They were miserable.
(54:37):
But I can name hundreds of oldcities like Charleston, savannah
, milan, paris, that weredesigned under a different
system, less intellectual andmore merchants kind of roots,
and I love when I trying to findgreat ideas, I like to just
watch what a merchant does.
Rich (54:54):
They know how to attract people, engage and keep them
interested, and istanbul is justfull of that well, if you need
a recommendation for a greatplace to buy turkish towels, yes
, my wife and I went, went andone of our merchants had given
us a recommendation and theywere dead on.
So I'll send a couple.
Kevin (55:13):
Please, I would love to know that.
Thank you, thank you, thatwould be phenomenal.
Well, I hope I didn't overwhelmyou today with too much
information.
I love what I do.
Rich (55:21):
No, actually Paula said it best when she said she had a
hundred questions and we weregoing to run out of time,
because this was.
This was fascinating, andhopefully we can find a reason
to bring you back and delvefurther into this, but this is
greatly appreciate you spendingtime with us today.
Paula (55:39):
This is very beautiful, thank you.
Kevin (55:41):
Next time I hope I get to ask you questions.
Rich (55:43):
You know what?
That would be a great idea.
We can we can reverse engineerthe podcast.
Thank you very much for beinghere today.
This was absolutely fantastic.
We will definitely figure out away to have you come back and
continue this conversation,because I think it is not only
helpful for those at the entrystages of their career but,
quite frankly, for the everydayconsumer.
(56:04):
So, and with that, thank youvery much for joining us today
and we hope to see you.
What makes a space unforgettable?
For Kevin Kelly, it's not abouthow it looks in a rendering.
Rather how it shapes the waypeople feel, behave and connect.
A lifelong student of humanbehavior, kevin has built a
career helping brands, citiesand cultural institutions
rethink the role of place in anincreasingly digital age.
(00:21):
In this environment, we unpackthe architecture of experience
why environment is never neutral, how sensory design influences
decisions, why marketplacesstill matter and what leaders
can do to create spaces thatdeliver more than efficiency
they deliver belonging.
I'm Rich Honeyball and I'mco-hosting today with Paula Jean
(00:41):
, our digital marketing andglobal community expert, as we
explore the intersection ofdesign, behavior and commerce.
Kevin Irwin Kelly is abehavioral design architect and
co-founder of Shook Kelly, withoffices in Charlotte and Los
Angeles.
For the last three decades,he's worked with leadership
teams from Arlie Davidson, wholeFoods, kraft, usaa and MoMA, as
(01:05):
well as professional sportsfranchises, universities and
cities across the globe.
He also co-founded South End inCharlotte, a formerly blighted
district which has sincegenerated more than $1.5 billion
in development activity.
His debut book, irreplaceablehow to Create extraordinary
places that bring peopletogether, has been recognized by
the Financial Times and theNext Big Idea Club as a
(01:29):
must-read on the future of place.
Kevin's career is a study incontrast.
From steakhouses to smartcities, food courts to cultural
icons, his work demonstratesthat space is not background,
it's foreground.
In this conversation, we'llhear how his early experiences
shaped his behavioral approachto design, why fixing the
(01:50):
everyday matters more thanchasing flashy projects, and how
leaders can define problemsmore clearly before rushing to
solutions.
You'll also hear practicallessons on how to move beyond
convenience and towards socialbliss, why sameness is the enemy
of great design, and how tomake spaces that people choose
to return to again and again.
(02:11):
So welcome back to anotherepisode of Retail Relates.
I am one of your hosts for RichHoniball, and I'm here with
Paula Gean Hi, Paula.
Paula (02:21):
Hello, thank you for having me.
Rich (02:23):
And we are excited to be joined today by Kevin Kelly, who
is the co-founder of ShookKelly and the author of,
irreplaceable, how to CreateExtraordinary Places that Bring
People Together.
Kevin, how are you doing today?
Kevin (02:37):
I'm doing great, very excited to be here.
I'm a big fan of your podcastsand think you have really
relevant topics that are ofgreat interest to me and the
audiences I serve.
Rich (02:48):
Well, I definitely, we definitely appreciate that we
work hard at it, don't we Paula?
Paula (02:52):
Well, one of us does, and that's Rich, so he works very
hard.
Rich (02:56):
That's great, and I enjoyed the book very much, so I
look forward to getting into it.
We have read your bio and ofcourse, I'm going to post the
extended bio in the show notes.
It's impressive.
But we'd like to start with aquestion that limits the amount
of space you have to tell usabout yourself.
So, if you can, what are thethree pivotal moments?
(03:19):
Personal, professional?
A combination that happened inyour life that brought you to
where you are today?
Kevin (03:26):
Great, I'd start this with.
It's the weird, awkward momentsin your life when your hair
rises on your back of your heador your arms that you start to
realize there's something there,there's some material there.
When I was a young kid, I grewup in a home that wasn't always
safe, and so I had to kind ofworry about certain situations,
(03:49):
and I could tell by the way akey was put in the door or ice
cubes in a glass, whether it bea good day or a bad day.
And at 60 pounds I didn't knowreally what to do, how to manage
those kind of situations, andfor some reason the only
instinct that came to mind wasto adjust the environment, to
turn the lights down or move thefurniture around, put some
(04:11):
music on, and I could turn adifficult situation into a great
situation.
Most people would think of thatas a kind of neurosis, but I
took that neurosis and turned itinto my career, really studying
how environment affectsbehavior.
That's my first observation.
My second everybody obsessabout style and architecture and
aesthetics and kind of what wecall talkitecture, the
(04:49):
intellectualization of design,and I often thought it was just
too much focus on those aspectsand I couldn't understand why we
weren't studying behavior?
Why aren't we looking at howpeople behave as opposed to
looking at these objects thatwe're making?
And one of my professors saidto me.
He said, you know, maybe youshould consider being a
sociologist, and I took a longpause and I thought or maybe
(05:13):
architecture should be moresociological, and that was the
birth of an idea that really ledme down a path.
My third observation happens inmy career.
In the middle of my internship,I was working on a variety of
different types of projects anda lot of my peers dreamed of
doing skyscrapers or civiccenters or fancy, you know,
(05:35):
resort hotels overlooking cliffsof Malibu, and what I couldn't
understand is why we weren'tlooking at the everyday places
of our lives.
The dry cleaners, understand,is why we weren't looking at the
everyday places of our lives,the dry cleaners, the grocery
stores, the gas stations.
Why weren't we looking at allof those types of things that we
all have contact with weeklyand why weren't we empathetic to
that situation?
(05:56):
And why are we focusing so muchin making the wealthy and the
cultural elite hipper and cooler?
Why aren't we working on what astruggling, you know person on
a limited income is trying to do?
And so early in my career of myown firm, starting with my
business partner Terry Shook, Igot a commission to do a steak
buffet chain, which doesn'tsound that exciting, you know,
(06:18):
it certainly wasn't a skyscraper.
Most of the people at thissteak buffet chain, which was a
538 unit steak buffet chain,live off fixed incomes.
So you're looking at mashedpotatoes and macaroni and cheese
and biscuits.
And I remember sitting down witha gentleman and I wrote about
this in the book.
Percy was his name, and Ilearned so much from Percy about
(06:40):
the world and I realized Icould use my talents to make his
life and his time with hisfamily and his week out on his
fixed budget so special, somemorable.
And that, to me, is what weshould be doing as designers is
fixing, addressing and enhancingthe everyday places of our
(07:00):
lives.
Because Percy told me he'd onlybeen to one museum in his life
and that was a stock car racingmuseum.
So he has no awareness ofwhat's going on at MoMA, but he
has a lot of awareness of what'sgoing on in his daily
environment and we need to fixthese things.
And what's happened to us as asociety is that we focus and
(07:20):
design so much on downtowns andso much on suburbia that we
forget all the corridors inbetween, which in almost every
city you'll see a hub and spokesystem, and we just leave that
to other people, the utilitarianpeople, which is nothing wrong
with that either.
But we can fix these places.
There's latent assets, latentcapitalism, latent opportunities
(07:41):
waiting to be developed.
Rich (07:42):
So I have to ask, because I do read the book and I'm
trying to remember the stakeplace.
Well, it was Golden Corral,golden Corral, okay.
So I was trying to remember thestory, because I was trying to.
I grew up with Ponderosa, so Iwas trying to remember and I'm
like, okay, now you know, pauland I both lived in Dallas, so
we know Pappas Brothers and I'mlike I'm not aligning it, I'm
not remembering it.
(08:03):
So yeah, Golden Claw.
Kevin (08:04):
They're amazing, by the way, pappas Brothers.
They do something amazing andyou know, ironically, for a
brief period there, which wasinitially, I got poked by my
peers about this but I was thesteak buffet king, so I went
around and did lots of steakbuffet joints.
They all started culturallyaround Western themes and so
(08:26):
fascinated, and the show Bonanzabegan.
All of these concepts, there'smany others that all come out of
that era and it speaks to howkind of television entertainment
affects culture, which affectsfood and fashion and everything.
Rich (08:42):
So you mentioned architectural.
Is this what you imagined you'dbe doing, or did you have a
different path in life?
I did not imagine.
Kevin (08:48):
I'd be doing this.
I thought I would be, you know,an architect, thinking about
all those cultural elite items.
You know, and I didn't reallyknow that I would almost take a
adversarial position with my ownprofession to say, listen, we
can do more and we need torepresent all of society.
We need to go out and reach outto the masses.
(09:10):
And it's kind of as if all thedoctors want to be plastic
surgeons, you know, and I foundmyself embracing capitalism,
which I didn't expect, and Iwork every day in capitalism and
you know there's thisassumption that architects would
(09:32):
be professionals likeaccountants or lawyers, but
really we're artists, we'retrained as artists.
And capitalism my professoragain I go back to this my
professor said that he describedthat capitalism as the enemy of
architecture and I couldn'tunderstand that.
I thought, well, we shouldstudy it like a force, like we
study termites or earthquakes orwind, and it's a force on
(09:55):
society and we need tounderstand it.
And you know, our presidents,our leaders of our world, are
always talking about GDP andrevenue and income and gross
domestic product.
These are the things that wefocus on and design and our
built environment has to relateto that.
Rich (10:11):
So I'm going to turn it over to Paul in a second.
But I have to ask from a rewardperspective.
You know you mentioned ROI andwe are driven by capitalism, and
if you don't pay the bills, wecan't pay salaries, and so
that's extraordinarily important.
And if you don't pay the bills,we can't pay salaries, and so
that's extraordinarily important.
And when you look at yourexperience with Pappas Brothers,
but then with Golden Corral,was there a moment where you
(10:33):
went into a Golden Corral andjust felt proud?
Kevin (10:37):
Absolutely yeah.
When the owner of well, hewasn't the owner, he was the
president of the chain and hewas also president of National
Restaurant Association.
At the end of the job hebrought me in and I thought he'd
be blown away that we haddoubled the income of their
average unit.
We built many of these thingsand we were doubling it.
Normal Golden Corral would do$38,000 to $42,000 a week.
(10:57):
Ours were doing $89,000 to$92,000 a week.
I thought that's what he'd talkabout and he didn't.
He said just hang on a secondand don't talk.
And so I didn't say anythingand I was like I don't hear
anything and he goes.
That's what I want you tonotice.
He said the customer istreating us better.
He said before it sounded like,you know, a rambunctious
(11:20):
cafeteria, but now it soundslike a place where people are
really bonding, having a goodtime and I felt that difference
that we could make.
Paula (11:29):
Number one.
Thank you for yourvulnerability, because it's not
often that you see leaders thatare willing to talk about how
their upbringing shaped them, soit really does mean a lot.
So thank you first and foremost.
Kevin (11:40):
Thank you.
Paula (11:41):
I love how Rich left me to the expertise questions,
because usually I do the firstpart, but I do want to ask
something which is serving theseunderserved populations.
You talk about how all of yourcolleagues, all your peers, were
going for these.
Of course, these beautifullandscapes, these beautiful
backgrounds, these skyscrapersin these major cities, but you
(12:02):
decided to focus on underservedareas, so places that we visit.
How difficult was that for youto explain to people?
Because when you're the firstone to do something, not a lot
of people understand your vision.
Kevin (12:16):
Yeah, what was even harder?
Great question, I mean.
And what was even harder wasnow it's kind of obvious, but in
1989, 88, moving up to 92 whenwe started our firm what was
much harder was to think about.
Maybe social science has a lotof ideas and I say psychology,
sociology, cultural anthropology.
(12:37):
Maybe they have a lot of ideasthat real estate developers and
retail tenants could benefitfrom.
Real estate developers andretail tenants could benefit
from.
Also combining branding which ismuch more common now but wasn't
at the time with design, andstarting to think about breaking
down the silos, because all ofthose disciplines have very
strict language, and creating awhole new language and getting
(13:00):
out of that language thatarchitects have or sociologists
have or brand strategists have,and really thinking about two
critical things that I'll jumpto, and that is the senses first
is one of the mostmisunderstood, under educated
aspects of retail leaders,business leaders and designers.
So that's shocking is how oursenses help us shape our world.
(13:24):
In fact, there's no idea that'sin your head that doesn't first
come through your senses.
When we describe people asslick, hard-headed, rough on the
edges, it's our senses thatdefine that.
A baby learns through theirsenses first.
Our smell is our most powerfulsense.
A third of our brain isdedicated to our visual sense.
We don't control our eyes,they're involuntary.
(13:44):
So starting with the senses andthen going into perceptions,
which are shaped a lot bysociological and psychological
aspects, and eventually gettingto the design, that was a hard
sell in the beginning.
And so what did I have to do?
And my team and I went to dosome case studies and in fact
that informed.
Our whole approach was doingcase studies proving that
(14:07):
environment affects behavior.
That was my thesis in college.
I should have started with thatand that.
Paula (14:13):
Well, that's helpful.
Kevin (14:14):
How does environment affect behavior?
I hope that that was a hardsell and it's hard to build a
business around that, but wejust kept doing and building
this case study around it andeventually the clients started
recognizing hey, this is a newway to compete.
This gives us a competitiveadvantage over just
straightforward design.
(14:34):
Too much of the retail and realestate world focuses on the
literal.
They look at a building andthey all debate aesthetically do
you like that, do you not likethat?
Instead of really looking atwhat's happening underneath us.
And so one of the questions youmight ask is why aren't we more
aware of our behaviors?
And the reason we're not moreaware of our behavior is it
(14:57):
takes too much energy.
We're running off about a60-watt light bulb all day to
power us through all the thingswe have to do Get the kids ready
, run out the door, drive ourcar, go through a parking lot,
deal with weather, get in theoffice All of those things wear
us down.
They take energy and caloricenergy, and so our brains
(15:17):
delegates, our body delegates.
It says, hey, I don't want todeal with this, and it delegates
that to our senses, and thesenses have a just like your
dreams have a different way ofthinking.
Your senses do, and the sensesare looking for two primary
things enhancements andimpediments to life.
It's looking for things thatare dangerous and things that
will help us.
The second you could.
You could be walking down astreet with thousands of people
(15:40):
and a ball flies out of the airoff of a high rise building.
Your brain will detect it andyou'll either stand to catch it
or move out of the way.
It's a fascinating process.
We can't teach computers torecognize it as well as a human
body can, because the body hasthousands of years of getting
ready.
So that ability is notunderstood anywhere near enough
(16:01):
in real estate.
So when I go meet with a malldeveloper, it says we don't
understand why it's not working.
We go into let's start with thesenses.
Let's get that right.
Then let's go to behaviors andperceptions and decision-making.
Paula (16:13):
I love that because the more sophisticated we get, the
more we realize that it reallyis.
It comes down to those primalfeelings and primal, just the
basics of life.
I hate to simplify it that much.
It sounds simple but it's noteasy.
Kevin (16:28):
Yeah, understanding what motivates people is very hard
and you know it's ironic theplaces you can learn from.
But but a boxer understandsbehavior better than anyone and
I've met with boxers that saywho can just tear you apart in
the ring.
They say, in the ring they go,I'm going to turn you into my
assistant and what they mean isthey're going to get you.
(16:48):
So they hit you on the left.
A kickboxer is even faster.
They hit you on the left.
What do you do?
You move to the right, but theyalready know you're going to
move to the right.
And then they hit you that wayand they know you're going to
move back to the left estateworld we're just trying to
survive against big retailgiants and tech disruptors.
(17:10):
So if we can understandbehavior, it gives us a huge
advantage on how to createplaces that convene and create
the kinds of behaviors we want.
Standard kind of assignmentsover the last 33 years is fixing
projects that aren't working.
I'll go to these entitieswho've spent you know I'm not
(17:31):
kidding 300 million, 600 million, over a billion dollars to
build a large structure, say abig mall.
And they'll say you know, wedon't understand it.
We hired the best design firms,we built this award-winning
project, but it's not performingthe way we want.
Oftentimes, what is not clearis what is the behavior you
wanted?
And when I ask leaders anddesigners what type of behaviors
(17:53):
you want, they go.
What do you mean?
We want people to come here andI'm like what time, what day?
How long do you want them tostay?
What do you want them to lookat?
Do you want them to talk topeople?
Not talk to people?
And the more specific you getas an organization on the types
of behaviors you want, the moreyou can design to those
behaviors.
And that sounds, as you saidearlier, awfully simplistic.
(18:14):
But a lot of times what happensis we build it, we watch people
come and we go.
Huh, did that work?
It's like well, of course itdoesn't work.
What do I want to see out of myaudience that I'm trying to
attract, convene and get toengage in my environment?
Rich (18:30):
Well, and this is parallel , but I was interviewing someone
, the head of design for anorganization I was working with,
and he talked about killing aproject that or restarting I
should say a project, because itwas done very elegantly,
award-winning, but it didn'tachieve what the goal was from a
(18:53):
customer perspective.
And I remember him saying itwasn't about winning an award,
it was about winning the heartof the customer.
And I hired him because itmattered.
And I almost hate to jump tothis question so soon because I
want to delve further into thephysical, but we're living in an
age where digital convenienceis on the rise.
(19:15):
How is that going to impact andwhat role will it play in our
physical gathering places,stores, markets, town centers,
et cetera?
Kevin (19:25):
Yeah, and I'll respond to something you said.
Just to tee that up is that asa young intern and I keep
wanting to reiterate here, foryour audience particularly, that
I didn't have anything figuredout in my life I was just an
obsessive observer, neuroticobserver, and would just decode
and look at all kinds ofpatterns.
(19:46):
And when I was working as anintern I'd watch people go to a
meeting and try to get a clientto do something really exciting.
Run back to their desk afterthe meeting and start drawing
Doodling is what designers do.
So they draw all these littlesketches.
And what drove me crazy was Iwas like you're developing a
solution which you haven'tdefined the problem.
So a classic symptom that wesee is you said it earlier the
(20:09):
elegant solution in search of aproblem to solve.
But I think the more profoundthe problem is, the more
profound your answer will be,and all of us have had that
experience.
We've gone to a doctor whodiagnosed a problem that we're
having, didn't give us asolution, but we felt better
just because they did such agood job diagnosing the problem.
There's a lot of value in beingexceedingly clear.
(20:31):
So we have a test in ouroffices Can we give our client a
big aha just in defining theproblem.
Can we do that now?
And that we are living in thisvery linear, concrete way all
the way around on so many thingsright regarding money and
(20:52):
income, and we're getting whatwe want.
As humans, we have one coredriver that is to acquire things
at the least amount of effortexpense possible.
That is a core driver.
But once we get those needs met, then we have other needs,
which is to bond, to mate, toget the respect of our peers, to
(21:13):
learn to find spirituality, andso what I'm recommending, and
have been recommending for thelast 33 years with my clients,
is we cannot get into thecommodity aspects.
We're not going to win thatbattle.
We weren't going to win it wayback with Walmart.
The commodity aspects we're notgoing to win that battle.
We weren't going to win it wayback with Walmart.
But we can win the social blisspart, the surprise, the delight
(21:33):
, the joy.
Amazon may have a monopoly onprice, but they don't have a
monopoly on joy, and socialbliss is a quality that we
really need in society and it'ssomething people are willing to
pay for.
We see it all the time right.
It's inefficient.
We live in this era where wethink friction is the enemy.
Some friction is good, somefriction, some challenges of
(21:55):
going to a party or going to anevent and go well.
This is not the most efficientway, yet there's something
really powerful about it.
Dating online is trying to getas frictionless and
transactional as it can get, butit's not near as profound as
going to an event you didn'twant to go to and bumping into
somebody who ends up becomingyour wife or husband.
I met my wife in baggage claim,so think of that a very
(22:18):
inefficient way to meet a humanbeing on a flight that I missed
and was irritated, and met thelove of my life in baggage claim
.
Paula (22:24):
That's very sweet.
I actually did leave.
I met my husband through Bumble, but it was the physical
encounter, so the first time wemet, that was it.
Kevin (22:34):
I saw him in the conversation and yeah, well, it
ultimately had to go to a place.
Paula (22:39):
Exactly, you have to have .
Yeah.
Kevin (22:42):
It ultimately has to go to a place because we are wired
that way.
Paula (22:45):
Yeah.
Kevin (22:46):
And while we can do all kinds of things online, the way
we actually get to know peopleis very universal and it's very
profound.
We don't talk to people fromthe back of our head or side of
our head.
We walk a certain way.
These are the things that arevery interesting, and if you
watch couples which we do a lotI'm a professional voyeur.
We should have said that upfront and that we watch people
(23:06):
on dates Very common exercisefor us to go.
What happens to people and howdo they meet?
One of the things we study inall the environments we look at
with our clients is where inyour venue are people most
likely to talk to a stranger andwhere are they least likely to
talk to a stranger?
Because we're trying to figureout how the environment either
(23:27):
encourages or facilitates socialinteraction versus places that
don't.
And so, just as a quick, easyanswer, you know it's
fascinating how many people willtalk to each other at the
butcher department or at theseafood department, how they
won't talk to each other in theaisles, and they definitely
don't like to talk to each otherat checkout, except to complain
about the cashier who's justleft.
(23:49):
And though you know the tendency, of course the knee-jerk
reaction is just make checkoutfaster.
But it's not really aboutmaking it faster, it's about
reducing the anxiety of checkout.
Checkout is a malfunction zonewhere we have aisles dead-ending
to a checkout where people lineup with 250 cart that you get
very upset if that cart touchesyour butt or if there's too big
(24:11):
of a gap, and then, on top ofeverything else, we create a
road cutting across checkout.
So think about the standardModel T grocery store that we
won't change All the aislesdead-end to a crossroad.
That is, of course, going tofail.
That would be like having atoll highway with a residential
road cutting across it.
This social anxiety creates alot of high tension in people
(24:33):
and they don't feel good abouttalking to other people except
to complain or to say close thegap.
And so we're trying, if wechange that experience, to make
the environment less stressful,people behave better and enjoy
their time you know it'sinteresting.
Rich (24:48):
One of the things that I enjoy most is to go into one of
our stores, sit in the commonarea and just work, because I do
well, with a lot of noise butnot a lot of people bothering me
.
It's one of those sensorythings and I like hearing the
conversations, I like seeingwhat people stop at and what
(25:11):
they see.
One of the learnings from COVIDwas, as we were getting back to
normal, we obviously had totake our food courts and
decompress the space and offermore social distancing, and,
because you still had capacityissues and we have some larger
stores, we would put seatingareas in the hallways, in the
(25:38):
main foyer area.
In observing it, what we foundwas that we had people that now
wanted to come in and sit anddidn't feel rushed like they
would in a crammed food court,and when they did that, they had
a tendency to meet with otherpeople and grab something and
spend more time in the store,and so we kind of defaulted our
way into a more human experienceinstead of that crammed food
court.
Kevin (25:57):
Which happens often, by the way, and I think this
post-pandemic period, theimmediate part, if you studied
what was happening to people,they didn't remember their
birthdays, they didn't rememberspecial days, and that's because
every single day was the sameday.
And as humans we need varietyand we actually need sensory
stimulation, no different than adog needs to go out, and a lot
(26:18):
of time.
A dog doesn't need to go outnecessarily to exercise.
All that it needs to go out toactivate its senses, to smell.
It's a very important part ofdogs is smelling, smelling their
neighborhood.
We as humans need the samething and if every day is the
same day, our memories becomeundifferentiated and we don't
remember what happens, whathappens to older people.
So a lot of older people haveundifferentiated memories.
(26:41):
But the danger that we've hadit's kind of like death by a
thousand cuts with nobody,nobody trying to do anything
evil.
But if we're spending seven,eight hours in front of a screen
and teens are approaching ahigher level, that is generally
seven, eight hours of a limitednumber of wake hours, that we're
not interacting with otherpeople, that we're not
(27:01):
socializing with other people,and this has a big impact on us
and so it is so rewarding.
When you go to a food court oryou go to anywhere, really, like
I said, baggage claim and youhave a relationship with
somebody, you connect with them.
It's very therapeutic, it's animportant quality and so you
know, I want to keep relatingthis back to the real world and
(27:22):
getting down to the ROI, what Ishow my clients.
I start when I when I mentionedmy internship years, my
internship years were workingfor a mall design firm.
Okay, so I was designing mallsand designing a lot of food
courts for all the you know bigdevelopers, and back then we
used to develop the anchortenants and the socialization
that happened there was aby-product of developing the
(27:44):
deliberate anchors.
Now it's the other way around.
Now, to create a place that hasthe power to convene, you have
to actually make socializationthe product.
You have to say, hey, I willcreate a physically, socially
and emotionally safe for you tocome around and wander around,
like you've seen in those oldfilms where people just wandered
around, be around other humanbeings and feel like you can
(28:06):
connect with them or not connectwith them.
What you described is a perfectthing that we see all the time
of people saying I don't want totalk to anyone, but I want to
be around people and some peoplesaying, no, I want to talk to
people and it's okay to approachthem.
Those types of behaviors arevery powerful.
And so with my clients, we'resaying you have to develop a
social value proposition, can'tjust be a literal value
(28:27):
proposition, because you'regoing to get beat on the
commoditizing aspects.
The second you have a place.
You're already inefficientbecause now we have to deal with
parking, we got to deal withescalators and elevators, so you
have to create a bigger payoff.
You might remember from the book, we use a statement called the
work payoff ratio and so, nomatter what venue we're going to
(28:48):
, we try to evaluate where themoments that a human feels like
they have to work I mentionedself-checkout or a regular
checkout, either one.
Those are moments where humanshave to work.
They're not enjoying their time, but they may go to a walk
station or a pizza station wherethere's activity and that is
enjoyment.
We're generally trying to breakdown where do people have work
(29:09):
and where do they have joy.
The ideal goal is to create amuch higher payoff than the
amount of work it takes, and sowhen a customer is going well, I
can buy it online withoutgetting out of my pajamas and
staying on the couch, or I candrive down to that place.
So what do I get?
And the customer is very smartgoing how do I win?
How do I win by going to yourplace?
(29:29):
It cannot be price, variety orconvenience.
It's not enough.
You generally have to deliversome type of emotional, social
payoff.
Paula (29:37):
I've got two questions.
One's about your book, but themore pressing question is so
what is going on with mall?
What is your solution to themall?
Is going on with malls?
Kevin (29:47):
What is your solution to the mall?
Well, you know it's interesting.
When I first started working atthis mall design firm, my Dutch
uncle came to me and said youknow, he was in the real estate
industry and he said you shouldget out of this.
Malls are dying.
That was in 1987.
I'm still here in 2025 andthey're still telling me malls
(30:07):
are dying and they have thinneddown.
There's no doubt they'vethinned down, but we're still
working on malls and we're stilldoing them and, in fact, the
younger generation is the onethat is resurrecting malls.
That's what's surprising.
They're the ones coming back.
I think the terminology mall iswhat gets us really tripped up,
because we think of Fast Towntowns, of Ridgemont High, we
(30:29):
think of this thing which reallywe call a form and shape.
Human beings know what aconvenience store looks like, we
know what a department storelooks like, we know what a
coffee shop looks like.
We're really good at that, andso we've kind of got stuck in
this idea of what a mall lookslike, which was generally big,
giant walls, department, nowindows, no being seen, you know
(30:49):
, from the outside, and that isa turnoff to people right now.
We got too much of that.
But a better way to think aboutit is as a central marketplace
and the idea of a centralmarketplace where strangers to
each other can come together andmeander around.
Come together and meanderaround, learn about what's going
(31:10):
on, talk about the fashion ofthe times, enjoy some food,
maybe bump into their neighborsor somebody they've never met
before to see the other.
This central market idea isthousands of years old.
Whether you call it a bazaar,ancient Agora or a mall, that is
universal.
Now, I think the thing thatdevelopers need to do is be
aware of the signals that datedmalls send out.
(31:32):
You know, without getting toodeep in this, there's been eras
in my life my short life wherewe had buildings that didn't
have many windows.
You've seen those buildings,that little what we call gun
turret windows.
That was an era where we wanteddark buildings and old
steakhouses and stuff, becausewe liked that.
Now we've gone to thistransparent look.
We want to see what a building,what's going on in a building,
(31:55):
from the outside.
Malls aren't great at that.
There's many other reasonsthey're not working.
They're trying to be toostylistically, aesthetically hip
, as opposed to being more likea village or a town.
Authentically hip as opposed tobeing more like a village or a
town.
When I go to most communities Idon't see in the surveys that
(32:17):
consumers saying we need a mall,but the one thing we see over
and over is they go.
We wish we had a village or atown.
And what's the differencebetween a village and a town and
a mall?
It really has to do with howthe forms and shapes work and
how people interact.
Paula (32:27):
Community centers.
People still need and wantcommunity centers.
Kevin (32:31):
Yes.
Paula (32:32):
In your book Irreplaceable.
It makes the case that greatplaces can't be replicated by
formula.
In a world where so many brandstry to copy what's working
elsewhere, what core ingredientsactually make a place
irreplaceable, and how canbrands or leaders avoid falling
into the trap of sameness?
Kevin (32:50):
Let's start with the sameness part.
I think one of the things we doand I'm guilty of it I speak at
a lot of conferences and I goto a lot of conferences we end
up learning all the bestpractices of what everybody else
is doing and we share thosethings.
And the next thing you knoweverybody's doing that we're all
doing the same thing and infact, we're over delivering to
the customer.
We're giving the customer allthese benefits without always
(33:13):
getting a premium for thosebenefits, and so I think, just
like humans, I think an entityhas to dig into themselves and
say what makes me unique, whatmakes me a proprietary?
The more awkward you startedout we talked about this before
the show the more eccentric thebetter.
I work with a Mexican grocerystore chain that is off the
(33:37):
charts successful, 600% increasein sales, over 40 stores, what
they do and this new concept iscalled Mercado and it's done by
Northgate Market in Costa Mesa,california.
When I first met with them, myteam and I and we started
looking at their stores, and youknow, most of my clients are
like patients that come to meand they know something's not
(33:58):
right with their body, butthey're not sure what it is.
So when they came to me,they're like we're not sure
we're heading down the rightpath and you know, we want to
know what you think.
My observation was stopprofessionalizing, stop doing
what you're seeing at theconferences.
They were becoming more like aregular grocery store team and
they said well, what should wedo?
And this was after hearing lotsof information from them.
(34:20):
I really encouraged them todouble down on being Mexican.
Create an authentic Mexicanmercado.
That will be your differenceand that that sounds obvious,
but it was a big dare.
This, the concept in Costa Mesa, is unbelievable.
It is an experience I encourageeveryone.
I'll guarantee you I'll payyour money back If you go there
(34:42):
and don't have a phenomenal time.
That's where you don't.
You know and I will say thisthat we designed that concept
right after the pandemic, I meanwhile it was happening and they
said click and collect is thefuture of grocery stores, the
retail apocalypse here andthere'll be no more stores and
tech is the only way to go.
What did we do?
We tripled down on the humanexperience.
(35:04):
We have a bar, we have a lot ofrestaurant seating and these
customers this is a perfectexample of looking at this issue
of convenience versussocializing.
Customers go to Mercado two andthree times a week, sometimes
twice a day, and they don'tthink of it as a chore.
They think of it as a greatsocial payoff.
(35:24):
Chore, they think of it as agreat social payoff.
It's really about having theaudacity to do this different,
this thing that the industryisn't doing and we can all name
the big national, internationalgrocery store chains that could
build 50 of these but instead,what are they doing?
They're trying to merge andlower prices to get into some
slugfest where there is nowinner, or I should say there'll
(35:46):
be two winners.
There'll be two winners andeverybody else will be a loser.
Rich (35:51):
Yeah, the first to market and then the one that perfects
it and maybe brings it down, andthen afterwards you're going to
have the laggards.
And it's interesting you saythat because in my classes what
I will often get is the defaultanswer when students are putting
together the strategies of abrand needs to add more tech,
they need to add more AI, theyneed to lean in.
(36:11):
And when you ask in a differentdiscussion board, tell me about
a brand that you love, a retailstore or grocery that you love
going to.
A significant percentage ofthem will mention Trader Joe's
and my answer will be okay.
Think a percentage of them willmention Trader Joe's and my
answer will be okay.
Where are their self-checkouts?
Where is their digital signage?
Where is their Urban correct?
(36:32):
No delivery, and at some pointthey may have to evolve that
much like everything evolves.
I'm going to ask a personalquestion and hopefully not set
myself up in the process, butyou mentioned Bazaars and Agoras
and the shopping mall and Ithought you were going to say
the shopping mall is dead.
Long lived the shopping mall,but in a different context, and
(36:53):
I love the marketplace idea.
Are you a historian?
Kevin (36:58):
Yes, particularly in architecture, but how cities are
formed and how they evolve, andyou know what made them work
and why does one city do betterthan another city?
Rich (37:08):
Why do you think it's important to understand the
history and the evolution of, inyour case, architecture or
commerce or human behavior?
Kevin (37:20):
You will see how that's.
The most fascinating part isthe center of civilization.
The common assumption,particularly among the elites,
is that it was the church or thegovernment that was the center
of most civilizations.
But it was actually the bazaar,the market, the trade, and
trade has always been there andwhen you look at places that
(37:40):
succeed, it's because of trade.
Historically, geography playeda big role.
A port, a valley, a mountain, acrossroad, those things played
a big role.
But you can create geography,you can create artificial
geographies.
La is one giant artificialgeography.
That to me is fascinating, therole that trade plays in a
(38:00):
thriving life.
Now, I think the fear a lot ofpeople have is when they assume
it's the only thing.
It is not the only thing.
It is one aspect of asuccessful city in the history
of cities.
But we can all think of thirdwell, cities that were once
famous, that are no longer atthe top of their peak because
they tempered trade and temperedcommerce and didn't evolve with
(38:21):
it.
Rich (38:22):
Yeah, and to a certain extent we've gone from public
punishment and scorn to Easterbunnies and Santa Claus is the
draw.
Yes, but there's always beenthat center of successful cities
and communities that drewpeople together, where you got
your news.
You were able to pick upwhatever wares you needed,
(38:44):
whether it was from a localvendor or from someone traveling
from faraway places.
You would listen to politiciansand philosophers.
Kevin (38:51):
As it relates to that and I think you'll connect with
this and again, I'm prettysteeped in my own industry of
architecture.
But if you look at a lot of themost famous old buildings that
they're trying to bring life to,whether they're office workers
or housing people living intheir institutions, the reason
(39:11):
those places don't work is theydon't have newsstands or they
don't have coffee shops or theydon't have cafes.
And the easiest thing to do tofix a place is to bring that
activity in, because you willsee daily people coming and
going.
It can be even something assimple as a dry cleaner.
That conversation you have witha dry cleaner starts to help
you understand other people,other values, other cultures,
(39:33):
and we all have these routines,right.
We all have these places we goto regularly, where we talk to
people, whether it is a cashieror another person, and that's
what animates life is trade.
In some ways, trade is a deviceMuch in the way.
Going to a bar or going to arestaurant to pay the amount of
money we pay for a drinksometimes makes no sense, right?
(39:55):
A beer can be eight to,sometimes twelve dollars in a
bar.
That is completely irrational.
But one of the reasons peopledo.
That is to say it's a device toallow me to now be next to
other people.
Maybe I'll have a conversation,maybe I won't.
The real question to ask iswhat happens when we don't do
that?
What happens when we don't goout and meet the other, which is
happening statistically?
(40:16):
It started happening before thepandemic and started happening
after.
Going back to this, how manyhours we're kind of distracted
on a device?
When we stop going out andbumping into other people, we
start distrusting more.
We start seeing people asenemies.
It's a dangerous factor, and soretail plays a very vital role
in getting people to cometogether around basic things
(40:39):
lawnmowers or lemons.
Rich (40:42):
But I think the danger for brand and you have indicated a
couple of times in thisconversation the danger is when
brands and retailers, grocers etcetera, get lulled into
believing that the actions thata consumer is taking for
convenience is actually loyaltyand they don't continue to
evolve the atmosphere or involvethe engagement, the experience.
(41:05):
I won't name brands, but thereare three or four that would
roll off the tongue right.
Kevin (41:10):
Yeah, it's a no holds barred competition out there,
and so I will tell you up frontI don't expect, want any
handouts from any entity to makelife more social.
We have to prove that the powerof coming together has value.
Period.
We have to prove the value ofbuildings have value.
Now I do that day in and dayout.
(41:30):
The track record I have forconvening people and building
businesses that are not justdoing well but are mega
successful around physical placeis unparalleled.
We have to prove that every day, that this can work, and what I
like about it for my clients isthey don't get themselves into
this horribly low marginslugfest.
(41:53):
They're able to enjoy betterpremiums by giving better
product.
Paula (41:57):
I have a lot of questions .
Kevin (41:59):
You sure?
Paula (42:00):
I mean so many more questions than we have time for.
I don't even know where tobegin.
I'm just going to shoot themoff and then you tell me which
one you want to answer.
The one is about you said wewant to trade, so that's what
people want to do.
I can see a community centerwhere we trade stories, but what
do you think about the futureof retail?
How are we making those trades?
(42:20):
I see these luxury brandsputting restaurants in their
retail center to get people tostay longer and they're trying
to create this environment andsometimes they win.
You know, sometimes it'ssuccessful and sometimes it's
just awkward.
But what's the trade there?
How do we create these spacesof trade and what is that trade
now in this new digital economy?
Kevin (42:39):
That's a great one and you know it is a common thing to
try to say let's put arestaurant inside our space or
bar or cafe.
They're a lot harder to makework than you realize and they
have to be a priority.
They can't be this tangentialthing that you're going to throw
a little effort at.
They have to be very successful.
(42:59):
They have to understand thehuman dynamics again of why
would somebody pay dollars or$14 for a cocktail to go.
What are they getting for that?
And so it is a.
It is no different than makinga film.
You have to really break thespace down into scenes and the
scene as a beginning and amiddle and an end.
There has to be drama.
There has to be a value.
(43:20):
Something has to happen forthat individual to have a payoff
to go.
This is worth paying thispremium.
It is a common exercise for usto go in and put a restaurant
type of venue inside a retailspace.
But we're very clear with ourclients pack your lunch.
This is not easy.
This is a very difficultassignment.
When I go, look at the placesthat don't work.
(43:43):
It's because they got secondarytertiary treatment.
Places that don't work, it'sbecause they got secondary
tertiary treatment.
I think something that might tieinto some of your thoughts here
as well is I think we're asociety obsessed right now with
what's new.
That seems to be everything onour mind, and if I go to one
more conference where 80% of thelectures are on AI, it's just
(44:03):
we're all chasing the same puckagain, and when, instead of
asking what's new, a betterquestion to ask is what are
consumers missing?
This is what we ask them.
We go around regularly and wantto understand, not what are
they, what's the shiny newobject, but what are they
missing in their lives?
And day in and day out,customers say I miss having
neighbors, I miss socializing, Imiss connecting to people,
(44:27):
despite all the advances and theconveniences and the speed we
have.
This is what people aresearching for, and so a
restaurant or a bar venue oreven a retail venue has this
opportunity to bring peopletogether.
A farmer's market does itincredibly well, right?
It's not really about thefreshness of the products at a
farmer's market.
It is really about walkingaround and bumping into people.
Paula (44:49):
Authentic connection.
Kevin (44:51):
It is one of our great crisis of our era and you know,
behind that and this getsawfully esoteric is we have a
crisis of meaning.
You know where people aretrying to figure out.
Religion is not playing thesame role it used to.
It should, but it's not.
We need more places of worshipof all denominations, because
(45:11):
those were places that broughtpeople together in safe ways and
to take care of each other.
They had an important role insociety and still do.
Our institutions outside ofreligious institutions, but
educational institutions aren'table to do the things they used
to do, and so a lot of thingshave fallen on retail, but now
that's been commoditized.
(45:32):
But when we talk to customersover and over, they're telling
us we finally, you know, havegot to a tipping point where
customers are telling us they'rebored of just pushing a button
and buying from a list the samepurchase order over and over.
Right, how many times you go toyour grocery list and it's the
exact same thing.
That makes life pretty boring.
We're looking for a variety,and I'm actually shocked that
(45:55):
online entities haven't figuredout a better way to get people
to have spontaneous purchases,but, other than bribing them to
do it, they haven't had as muchsuccess with that.
Paula (46:06):
They're looking for efficiency, that's it, and they
forget Again.
I mean, that's a fantasticreminder Don't go to where
everyone else is going.
Don't follow the shiny objectGo to where these underserved
places are.
Under-asked questions.
And those are the real gems.
Kevin (46:23):
You know it's interesting , I have a 7-year-old daughter,
just turned seven years old.
I'm kind of late in my life tohave another child.
Paula (46:31):
It's never too late.
Kevin (46:33):
When she was five and really four, about four and a
half five during the pandemic.
Going back a little bit, shewas kind of a homebody.
She liked to stay at home allday and getting her to go places
she'd be like why, why do wehave to do it?
When we were at the restaurant,she couldn't understand why it
took so long to get the food.
She's like I don't understandwhy it takes so long.
(46:53):
But I had a wild idea.
I said let's take her to amovie.
And she had never been to acinema so it's hard to imagine
that.
Right, I took her to the movieand she dangled her feet off the
chair and got a big bag ofpopcorn.
She's somewhat shy.
She had the best time and wasdancing down the aisle as we
went and became this differenthuman being.
I remember telling my wife Iwas like who is this?
(47:15):
And we got in the car and shemade me promise that I would
take her to the movie more oftenand now we go three times a
month.
She just loves going to themovie theater and think, think
about it.
It's not efficient, it's noteasy, she has to dress up, she
has to do certain things, butit's just something about that
primal storytelling, bondingexperience, right, and these are
(47:36):
things we cannot deny.
But I thought of all people.
I thought as a child she's notgoing to see the value in that.
Say the way I do, in nostalgicways, but she sees the value in
that.
Paula (47:46):
That's beautiful.
Kevin (47:54):
Let's go to the best advice you've ever received.
Wow, what is the best adviceI've ever received?
You know I was talking earlierabout this steak buffet chain
and I remember asking Percyabout some of the marketing
slogans and stuff that were onsigns in the building that said
things like home cooking andthings like that he said the
funniest thing to me.
(48:14):
He said I don't even notice thatsign.
It means nothing to me.
He said if I can't touch it, itain't real.
That stuck in my head.
That was early in my career.
If I can't touch it, it ain'treal.
Had that was early in my career.
If I can't touch it, it ain'treal.
So whenever I'm working on aproject and almost all projects
have these inside advantagesfrom the client that can be
things like heritage or familyor community.
(48:35):
But I'm like, how do I touchcommunity?
How do I touch heritage?
And so the assignment I give myhighly creative staff is we
have to manifest esoteric ideasand tangible experiential
mediums where people can touchit, and we give ourselves about
two seconds to get an ideaacross.
In a store we spend a lot oftime studying how the human eye
(48:56):
works, which is one of yourfirst senses that gets on site.
And I don't have 10 minutes.
I don't even have enough timeto ask somebody to read
something other than one bigtitle.
But really we're trying toevoke feelings.
Now we have a system in ourcompany which is seven layers.
We call it signage, but it'sreally.
It's queuing and triggering.
It's seven layers of that, andso we start with the evocative
(49:19):
and we go all the way down tothe whisper which happens at
about six inches from thecustomer.
That's the best advice I'veever heard.
If I can't touch it, it ain'treal.
So whatever you're trying toget across to somebody, make
sure they can touch it.
Rich (49:33):
That's a good one.
So, with the job market the wayit is, what is the single best
piece of advice you think youcan give high school students,
college students, those in theearly stages of their career?
Give high school students,college students, those in the
early stages of their career inwhat is an ever-changing new
normal.
Kevin (49:50):
Well, I, will sound very extreme in this, but I've had
this belief all my life.
I think we delude ourselveswhen we chase happiness.
I think happiness is a myth.
I read Brad Pitt one time saidthat it is an illusion for him
even, and I'm thinking, my gosh,he is everything anybody could
ever ask for.
I think what's more importantand I'm just going to speak
frank to you is find out whatpisses you off.
(50:12):
Find out what makes you mad.
Find out what you'd cut anotherman's ear off over, what you'd
fight for, because that is whatyou'll do for free.
I remember I don't know why Iuse this as a test, but if
you've ever had to go to adinner you didn't want to go to
and your spouse said you got tocome to this dinner, You're like
, okay, and you've kind of makethese blackmail kind of things.
(50:32):
You're like, all right, I'm notgoing to talk, Just going to
let you know.
And you don't talk untilsomebody says that that upsets
you.
And then that is the territorythat I recommend everybody
explore, and I don't think it'san immediate answer.
I don't think you see somethingthat you'd fight for and go.
That's what I should do.
I think it's a clue that startshitting down a path.
So for me that hint was I knowarchitects that will fight about
(50:56):
schools or parking decks.
They will fight about civiccenters and courthouses.
I don't.
But what I would fight overearly in my career was the way a
restaurant was designed.
It drove me crazy when somebodywould design a restaurant bad.
Or if a restaurant didn't careabout taking care of its
customers, didn't care about itssilverware or its glasses or
(51:18):
the napkins or the hostess stand.
Those things mattered to me andI was surprised.
I felt that come up in me.
I never did anything, I didn'tcut anyone's ear off over it, I
didn't fight, but I realizedthere's something about it, and
so when I did my firstrestaurant, it became one of the
top 10 restaurant designs inthe United States, won all kinds
of awards, and it was naturalfor me me and you have to get
(51:47):
down to what is it you'rewilling to fight for, and I
won't get into the details.
I, you know, I just dreamed ofthe enchanted evening as a kid,
because all I ever saw on TVwere these, these old places
where people are going tococktails.
I'd never had a cocktail, butI'd saw everybody dressed up.
My parents were gone and I waslike, oh, I'm going to draw that
place.
Each of us has that kernel,that nugget inside us and it's
(52:08):
normally in some kind of weirdor odd behavior.
It comes out in your kids.
It's the odd things that theydo that really make them
something.
Rich (52:18):
I think that is excellent advice and advice that everyone
should eat.
Okay, I'm going to start us offwith the rapid.
What is it?
The rapid round?
Paula (52:27):
Rapid fire.
That's how stressed you areOkay.
Rich (52:31):
So I'm actually going to put you in a place.
I'm going to put you in agolden corral.
Okay, you're in a golden corral.
You can invite any three peopleto dinner.
They can be living or past,they can be factual or fiction.
Who would those?
Kevin (52:45):
three people be Wow.
Well, I'd love to bring CarlJung.
What I love about him is thathe understood that psychology
isn't just some linear thing,that it has mystical qualities
and soulful qualities andreligious dimensions, and in my
book I really talk about aconcept he talked about, which
is participation, mystique,which means what it's like to be
(53:07):
around other people and there'ssome kind of energy.
I would bring John Prine, oneof my favorite singers and
songwriters, because he has away of capturing life stories in
such powerful mediums thatthey're just amazing.
And it's going to sound like anodd one, but I would bring Coco
(53:28):
Chanel.
I think she's pretty amazing asan individual.
I would like to have aconversation with how she
pioneered her fashion approach.
Paula (53:36):
All right, favorite comfort food.
Kevin (53:40):
I say this over and over, but there is nothing better
than cornbread and grits.
I'm from the South and so whenI go to South Carolina or North
Carolina, cornbread and grits orshrimp and grits, I just it's
everything to me.
I could just live off of it.
Paula (53:56):
It's a good.
Rich (53:56):
Southern man yes, and so I'm going to take the last
question and head to travel.
You can go anywhere in theworld for 24 hours.
You can go thereinstantaneously, come back
instantaneously.
Only I had that power.
Where in the world would you gofor 24 hours?
Kevin (54:17):
Istanbul and go to the markets there, and I'm going to
go next month.
I love learning from themerchants, I think, like a lot
of things.
I'll make it this simple.
You know I dare a lot ofarchitects to name one modern
city that works and theystruggle.
You know Frank Lloyd Wright hadideas, corbu had ideas.
They were miserable.
(54:37):
But I can name hundreds of oldcities like Charleston, savannah
, milan, paris, that weredesigned under a different
system, less intellectual andmore merchants kind of roots,
and I love when I trying to findgreat ideas, I like to just
watch what a merchant does.
Rich (54:54):
They know how to attract people, engage and keep them
interested, and istanbul is justfull of that well, if you need
a recommendation for a greatplace to buy turkish towels, yes
, my wife and I went, went andone of our merchants had given
us a recommendation and theywere dead on.
So I'll send a couple.
Kevin (55:13):
Please, I would love to know that.
Thank you, thank you, thatwould be phenomenal.
Well, I hope I didn't overwhelmyou today with too much
information.
I love what I do.
Rich (55:21):
No, actually Paula said it best when she said she had a
hundred questions and we weregoing to run out of time,
because this was.
This was fascinating, andhopefully we can find a reason
to bring you back and delvefurther into this, but this is
greatly appreciate you spendingtime with us today.
Paula (55:39):
This is very beautiful, thank you.
Kevin (55:41):
Next time I hope I get to ask you questions.
Rich (55:43):
You know what?
That would be a great idea.
We can we can reverse engineerthe podcast.
Thank you very much for beinghere today.
This was absolutely fantastic.
We will definitely figure out away to have you come back and
continue this conversation,because I think it is not only
helpful for those at the entrystages of their career but,
quite frankly, for the everydayconsumer.
(56:04):
So, and with that, thank youvery much for joining us today
and we hope to see you.
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