August 27, 2025 • 43 mins
What does it take to evolve from Marine Corps infantry officer to CMO and board leader? In this episode of Retail Relates, Tony Wells shares the lessons that carried him from the Marine Corps to the C-suite.
Tony’s career spans senior roles at Nissan, Visa, Schneider Electric, ADT, 24 Hour Fitness, USAA, and Verizon, where he most recently served as Chief Media Officer. Today, he’s a Venture Partner at AZ-VC and serves on the boards of Yelp, Nexstar, and TripleLift. His journey is filled with pivotal moments - mentorship that opened doors, career risks that paid off, and personal trials that underscored the importance of resilience.
Tony candidly addresses today’s marketing challenges, warning of the over-rotation toward performance at the expense of brand. “Brand answers the question ‘why,’ performance answers ‘why now,’” he explains, outlining a framework for sustainable growth.
From career self-management to board governance, Tony offers practical wisdom and inspiration for professionals at every stage. If you’re navigating change, building a career, or leading teams, this conversation is one you won’t want to miss.
Tony Wells Biography
Marketing Strategy | Brand Leadership | Board Governance
Tony Wells is a strategic marketing and transformation leader with over 25 years of experience driving growth, brand evolution, and digital innovation across leading Fortune 500 companies.
Tony is currently a Venture Partner at AZ-VC, which is Arizona’s largest venture capital fund. Previously, Wells was the Chief Media Officer for Verizon, one of the world’s leading providers of technology and communications services, generating more than $133 billion in revenue and serving more than 120 million customers. Before Verizon, he served as Chief Brand Officer for USAA, the 13-million-member Fortune 100 and +$35 billion revenue financial services company serving America’s military community. His career also spans executive roles at Schneider Electric, ADT, 24 Hour Fitness, and Visa, where he built and led high-performing teams, delivered award-winning campaigns, and championed digital and organizational transformation.
A U.S. Naval Academy graduate and former Marine Corps officer, Tony brings a mission-first, values-driven approach to leadership. Today, he serves as a board member, advisor, and mentor for several organizations including the Association of National Advertisers, focused on advancing innovation, diversity, and the next generation of leaders. Tony is recognized for his commitment to service, inclusion, and meaningful impact in both business and the broader community.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rich H (00:23):
Welcome to Retail Relates, where we connect the
world of retail through realstories, practical lessons and
conversations with today'sindustry experts and influencers
.
I'm one of your co-hosts, RichHoniball, and we're kicking off
a new season with our co-creatorand co-host, Paula Gean, right
here in the studio and, new thisseason, we're going to be
bringing in a roundtable vibewith guest co-hosts to add fresh
(00:46):
context and perspectives.
Joining us also in the studiotoday is Judy Sejini.
She is one of my formerstudents at George Mason
University, a recent graduatejust starting her career, and
our first student guest co-host.
Judy planned to audit this onequietly, but curiosity has a way
of jumping in and, honestly,that's a superpower that we
encourage in the world today.
(01:06):
Our guest this episode is TonyWells, a senior executive
marketer whose path runs fromthe Marine Corps to the C-suite.
He's led some of the mostvisible brand and media
platforms in the country andhe's here to talk about what
really drives growth,opportunity and momentum in
modern commerce and how to takecharge of your own mission, your
career.
A little bit more about Tony.
(01:27):
He is a marketing executiveknown for progressive, agile
leadership.
He's currently a venturepartner at AZ-VC, arizona's
largest venture fund, and mostrecently served as the chief
media officer at Verizon,leading integrated media
strategy for a global technologyand communications leader.
Previously, Tony was the ChiefBrand Officer at USAA and held
(01:47):
senior CMO roles at SnyderElectric, ADT and 24-Hour
Fitness, with senior posts atVisa and Charles Schwab.
He serves on the boards of Yelp, Nexstar and TripleLift.
A US Marine Corps infantryofficer - because you are never
a former Marine - Tony is a USNaval Academy graduate with
executive studies at JohnsHopkins Carey Business School.
(02:09):
To say that Tony's experienceand accomplishments are
impressive would be a vastunderstatement.
In this conversation, Tonythreads together lessons from
the core and from the boardroomwhy the best marketers balance
performance marketing with brandinvestment.
How to articulate the why andthe why now to build connection
and urgency, how our careersevolve and why the skills that
(02:31):
got us to this point may not bethe skills that drive us forward
.
We also get candid about risk,pushing past the fear of the
unknown and how to invest inourselves when the path ahead is
unclear and not guaranteed.
So whether you're just startingout or leading large teams,
planning an award-winning,customer-focused campaign or
your own career roadmap, there'sa lot to learn here.
(02:54):
We think you'll take away somepowerful, practical truths from
this episode, so let's go aheadand jump right in.
So it's my pleasure today towelcome Tony Wells to Retail
Relates.
We've just read Tony's bio.
He has a tremendous amount ofexperience in marketing,
consumer behavior and much more.
Hey, Tony, welcome to theprogram.
Tony W (03:15):
Thanks, Rich, it's great to be here.
Rich H (03:17):
I'm joined by my co-host , Paula Gean.
Paula, great to see you.
Paula G (03:20):
Rich, it's great seeing you, as always.
Thank you Tony, for being on.
Tony W (03:23):
My pleasure!
Rich H (03:24):
Paula normally asks the first question, but I'm going to
go ahead and jump in with thisone.
We've read your bio.
You are immensely talented, butone of the questions that has
become a kind of a hallmark toRetail Relates is instead of
going through the linearprogression of your career, what
are the three pivotal momentsin your life that have gotten
(03:44):
you to where you are today?
I think it can be personal,professional, whatever you
choose.
Tony W (03:49):
Well, I'll just, I'll stay career oriented.
I think there's three things.
One was, I think, my time atthe Naval Academy and being
commissioned as a Marineinfantry officer.
I think it had a profoundeffect on me in terms of how I
view the world, how I processinformation, how I attack
(04:12):
problems and how I try to leadas a servant leader.
That would be the first, Ithink.
The second was probably when Iwas at Nissan as a kind of
mid-level manager.
I had an unbelievable boss whoI credit kind of with putting me
on a different trajectory interms of my career.
One by kind of grabbing me fromanother business unit and
(04:35):
bringing me over to work inautomotive retail or at least on
the factory side, and investingin me and challenging me and, I
think, for opening up my eyesthat I could really do more, and
so that idea of boss and mentor.
And I think the third was whenI got the first time to be a CMO
of an organization.
(04:56):
I think making that leap to theC-suite for me was really
impactful and I think itcrystallized for me like hey, I
belong here, I can do this.
And I think, like a lot offolks, I suffer occasionally
from imposter syndrome and itproved to me like hey, you've
got the talent, you have theability to stay here and do this
(05:18):
job and guide a brand towardsuccessful business outcomes.
Paula G (05:24):
I know why Rich is smiling because of the imposter
syndrome.
That's really something we allstruggle with and talk about
here.
Tony, thank you so much forbeing vulnerable and for sharing
that.
You make it sound so easy, asif one day you looked around and
you were just all of a suddenin the C-suite.
But we know it's a difficultjourney.
Is there any particular pointin that journey that stands out
(05:45):
for you?
That taught you a criticallesson?
Whether that be good or bad?
Tony W (05:52):
The first when I was at Visa.
I was a VP level sponsorshipmarketing, a member of the
marketing team, and I knew thatI wanted to be a CMO.
But the challenge at Visa atthat time was that there were a
lot of very tenured folks andwhen I went to the organization
saying hey, I'd like to move toanother role that could get me
(06:13):
there, it just kind of fell ondeaf ears.
It happens in organizationssometimes, and so for me what I
took away from that is like, hey, if I'm going to sit in that
chair one day, I may have to doit at another place, another
company.
And I loved Visa.
It was a great, still it's agreat brand.
I enjoyed my time there but Ileft and went to 24 Hour Fitness
(06:36):
, went to work for CEO CarlLiebert, who I actually shared a
Naval Academy experience with,naval Academy experience with,
but I got my first CMO rolethere.
Much smaller brand.
I went from, you know, anine-figure brand in terms of
(06:56):
marketing spend and investmentdown to a brand that spent at
the peak maybe 60, 65 million.
So in many respects, in terms ofpresence and spend and things
that sometimes marketers gaugeespecially retail marketers
gauge whether they're successfulor impactful enough.
I took a step back in order, Ithink, ultimately to go a step
forward, and you always have tobe worried about confirmation
(07:19):
bias in this that oh, it workedfor me, then it's going to work
for everybody.
And they said, oh, it workedfor me, then it's going to work
for everybody.
That going to another brand, asmaller brand, in order to get a
chance to sit in that seat andto achieve something that was on
my kind of career roadmapturned out to be one of the best
decisions and thankful for myVisa experience.
But going to 24-Hour Fitnessyou know 21,000 employees, you
(07:42):
know 400 locations, did retail,kind of did you know services as
it relates to fitness, openednew stores, private equity, like
, I just learned a lot, and so Iguess the takeaway would be
sometimes you have to take astep back in order to go too
forward.
Paula G (08:01):
The slingshot effect.
Tony W (08:03):
And I would say one other thing in my career, I went
to ADT as the CMO in 2012.
I left 24-Hour Fitness to go toADT.
I was really attracted by thecompany's mission.
I had a great CEO in RainGorsani.
They were spinning off fromTyco, so it was an IPO.
It was just a lot of thingsthat were very attractive.
(08:32):
90 days after I got there, mywife was diagnosed with colon
cancer, and so here we were,moving from California to
Florida, and I said I'm not sureit makes sense to move now.
You know all of her friends,her network, her healthcare was
all based in California and wewould have had to rip all that
out to move across the country.
And so for the next two years Icommuted.
My first year I commuted like50 out of 52 weeks, basically
(08:56):
almost.
I think I maybe missed fourweekends where I didn't fly back
home on a Friday and then takea red-eye Sunday back into
Florida, and so it was verychallenging.
Obviously, the business waschallenging in terms of what was
happening, but the personalside, in terms of just what
you're facing and I think again,the lesson there is like, hey,
(09:17):
your health is your wealth, andso, as a career takeaway is,
like you know, invest inyourself, take care of yourself,
put your oxygen mask on firstbefore you can help others a
little bit.
Because for me that was verytrying time obviously making
sure my wife got through thatand trying to support her, but
during that time I was runningragged.
(09:39):
It was a really aggressive wayto personally kind of have to go
through that.
Put on a bunch of weight, wasdead, tired, but at the end of
the day the balance on that islike you can only do that for so
long until the wheels kind offall off.
So this idea of work-lifebalance making sure you're
taking care of yourself and yourfamily and your loved ones and
(10:00):
those that are important to youthat's the other takeaway.
Rich H (10:06):
You mentioned servant leadership and the importance of
that.
How do you define that and howhave you carried forth what you
learned at the Naval Academy andthe Marine Corps into what you
do today?
Tony W (10:19):
Yeah, I mean, there's a book in fact that I think
embodies this kind of the ethosof a Marine officer, which is
officers eat last, and this is atrue story.
I've been out to the field lotsof times and you may get one
hot meal if you're out oftraining and when you get to the
(10:40):
end of the line there's maybenot as much protein as you.
The mission first, but you haveto be mindful of taking care of
your people and kind of beingin the trenches with them titles
and where I office and allthese things and it's.
It can be really easy to losesight that your your first job
(11:07):
is if you take care of yourpeople and you give them good
direction and you have, you know, good people that they will get
to the outcomes.
But I think a big part of thatis them believing that they know
you will take care of them,that you don't have any hidden
agenda, that you just want toaccomplish the mission, and I
think that has served me well.
(11:27):
I will say that I loved being aMarine.
It was the best job.
There's nothing like being aplatoon commander as a second or
first lieutenant Like it is thebest job.
I think.
Maybe my whole career I've beenchasing a little bit to get
that same esprit de corps, thatsame camaraderie and same focus
on mission.
And you know, maybe I've comeclose a couple of times.
(11:49):
But being a Marine officer wasthe best job I ever had and it's
not one for 60-year-old guyslike me anymore but it did have
big impact in how I look at theworld and the filters that I,
you know, kind of see the worldthrough.
Rich H (12:03):
Well, and you just handled that answer with grace.
And I'm going to point out toPaula what she may have missed,
but I know your background andso I know you were an officer in
the Marines but I went NavalAcademy to Navy and you
gracefully let me off the hookand mentioned your Marine
background.
Of course, Navy and Marinesbeing a - it's one team.
Tony W (12:24):
It's a team.
It's the Navy and Marine Corpsteam.
Rich H (12:26):
But I appreciate how deftly maneuvered that was.
So your background has beenconsumer marketing, performance
marketing.
You've been around theperiphery of retail and at first
glance somebody would look atyour background and say, well,
has he been in retail?
You and I would say absolutely.
How do you define retail andhow would you define it in the
(12:49):
context of your career?
Tony W (12:51):
Wow, that's interesting.
So I'm going to defend that.
I feel like I'm a retailmarketer.
So automotive again, maybe moreon the factory, so if
somebody's at a dealershipthey'll go.
Oh, that's not automotiveretailing or Visa dealing with
thousands of merchants andtransactions 24-hour fitness.
So I think retail is anythingwhere a consumer is looking kind
(13:14):
of come in and make a decision,needs to select from a wide
array of products that theycould potentially select from.
And I also believe for the mostpart there's a physical
experiential nature to it.
All you know, where you havethis tactile ability to touch or
feel or be engaged with a teammember who's helping you
(13:38):
potentially transact or makethat, you know, make that
purchase decision.
So that's how I kind of viewretail.
Rich H (13:46):
So I was hoping you were going to take the bait on that
one, because we've had thatconversation about retail being
a much broader defined industryand we have one of my former
students an A student, I'llmention who is auditing the
podcast today, and Judy'sprobably smiling a little bit
because this hopefully echoeswhat we've been teaching in
class, which is that many timeswhen people think of retail they
(14:09):
think of just the front line orthey may think of buying to a
certain extent marketing but itis a wonderful 360 degree
periphery.
If you are defining the mostcritical metric in marketing
today.
Obviously we always are goingto not default, but we want to
drive sales, we want to driveprofitable revenue.
(14:30):
That's what pays the bills.
But what are the most criticalmetrics that you go into an
organization and say this isreally what I'm looking at.
I know that's a broad question.
I'm giving you a little bit oflatitude here.
Tony W (14:43):
You're putting me on the spot here, Rich.
I'm going to throw in aneditorial comment, maybe
unsolicited at first.
As I look out, I see, from myperspective, a very alarming
trend and that is that I think alot of marketers and brands
have over-rotated towardperformance marketing.
And I get why you're doing it.
(15:03):
You're trying to make the cashregister ring, you're trying to
get a conversion on a website, Iunderstand it.
But I also believe, when youover-rotate and don't invest in
brand, I think you lose marginand pricing power, I think you
lose brand equity.
That when your brand goesthrough a tough time, your
(15:23):
customers kind of give you alittle bit of grace and I think
you get away from many of thetrappings of pricing, and I do
think that today's marketershave kind of overcompensated for
that.
That said, I think you needkind of a nice blend of brand
and performance marketingmetrics.
(15:44):
So if I was coming into a retailorganization, I'd want to know
a little bit around awareness ofthe brand and consideration.
So when unprompted, unaidedawareness?
So not prompting on a piece ofresearch, but saying, hey, who
are the top brands in thiscategory?
And then the next is sayingconsideration.
So you now know that you'rebuying this widget, what are
(16:07):
your top two or three brands?
I want to know that I'm in thatgroup, with a very, very high
degree of likelihood that I'm onthe shopping list.
Next I would be looking attraffic.
So people size Like how big isthe basket?
Are we getting a fair share ofwallets?
(16:35):
So those would be the three tofour and I might put in
something around NPS or OSAT toconnect the loyalty button to
see if they're going to comeback, are they likely to refer
and I know there's a lot ofdebate around JD Power versus
NPS and all these differentmetrics but I do believe that
(16:56):
high referral ability from abrand, from a current customer,
can help reduce your marketingexpense and get that repeat
purchase which I think is soimportant in today's world.
Rich H (17:07):
Yeah, we could have an entire podcast on debating NPS,
and I agree with you, though,and I think it's more about
having consistency in the metric, and not necessarily there's
always going to be differentviewpoints on that satisfaction
metric, but it would be fun tograb a bunch of marketers and
debate it, and we would probablyget nowhere.
Tony W (17:29):
Now rate me there.
Rich, those KPIs.
Do they resonate with you?
Did I forget anything there?
Rich H (17:34):
Oh they absolutely do.
I think traffic and conversionis a critical one.
I think aided and unaidedawareness and I do agree with
you that I think and I washaving this debate at a
conference I was at last week isthat in many respects, and I'll
say industry-widewide, becauseobviously I think we do it well,
but we have fallen victim tothe urgencies that today brings.
(17:59):
And you can see brands andretailers and companies that
aren't investing in their brandand that aren't investing in the
future.
They're very transactionaltowards today because they're
trying to hit a quarter, they'retrying to hit something, and I
think that can weaken the andyou and I have seen brands and
companies that have gone out ofbusiness over time because they
(18:20):
haven't made that investment.
Tony W (18:21):
Yeah, and look, as I said, I think, to me, brand is
around, so let's just pick thelast brand.
I was at Verizon.
Why?
Verizon Performance answers thequestion is why now?
So, hey, at the top withVerizon.
I want to talk about the powerof the network, the reliability,
the dependability, the coverageand potential benefits that you
(18:44):
get as a customer.
Is why now, okay, we've got agreat offer, great price, a free
phone that we can give you andthat tells you come on in now.
And I think you've got todeliver on both of those,
because if you just say I have afree phone, I have a free phone
, I have a free phone, you losethe benefit of like, okay, then
I'm just shopping every two orthree years for a new, you know,
(19:05):
phone, not basing my decisionon the power of the network and
the coverage and the reliabilitythat I give.
Paula G (19:11):
It's value selling or value buying, I guess.
Tony W (19:14):
Value is benefits over price, and if you just focus on
the denominator.
If you just focus on thedenominator, the end game to me
is not very pleasant.
Paula G (19:24):
I want to ask you a question about your career now.
So you've gone from thisexecutive career to sitting on
boards.
At what point in your careerdid you realize that that is
something that you wanted toachieve, or that was a goal of
yours, or it made sense for you,and then how did you actually
make that happen?
So it's not easy to get on someof these corporate boards,
(19:46):
especially.
Tony W (19:48):
Great question, Paula.
I went on my first boardactually a nonprofit board when
I was on the National Board ofMothers Against Drunk Driving
and I was representing Nissan,who was a corporate sponsor, and
that's when I got my firsttaste of governance and managing
risk and helping anorganization get the outcomes.
That gave me the first tasteand I think probably around 2019
(20:13):
, 2020, there was a lot of talkaround CMOs being on boards and
up to that point, I think mostboards really favored a CEO or a
CFO for participation and Ithink there's a lot of new
thinking around this, arounddiversity of who's in the
boardroom, the benefit of havingan IT expert, someone that sat
(20:36):
in the CHRO spot, someone thatsat on the CMO that can help
around growth, and so that'swhen I, around that time,
decided that that's something Iwant to consider, something I
want to do as an evolution of mycareer, and I was very
fortunate to do a bunch ofnonprofit work, which is what I
always tell people who ask mehey, how do you go about it?
(20:58):
Build that.
And then I got my firstopportunity to be on a VC board
for a company, a softwarecompany, and that kind of
brought me into the commercial.
My first public board was Yelpin 2020.
So it's been a remarkablejourney.
I do think more CMO and moreretailers need chief
(21:19):
merchandising officers, chiefdigital officers.
There's a lot of folks that Ican add value in the boardroom
because they talk growth andthey also have a very unique
perspective on kind of theconsumer mindset being the voice
of the customer For me, though.
I will tell you, paula, that Ifound it really, really
rewarding.
I feel so blessed Two years agowhen I left Verizon and decided
(21:41):
that I was no longer going tobe an operating exec.
This Nextar, which does they'rethe largest owner of TV
stations and they own the CWnetwork and News Nation and so
very connected to the space thatI've operated in.
And then TripleLift, which isowned by Vista Equity and
(22:03):
they're a programmatic supplyside ad tech partner, so they've
been a blessing to my career.
It allows me to stay close tobusiness and, trust me, being on
the board is different thanbeing an operating exec.
It's kind of like nose in,hands out.
As much as I sometimes want tolean in heavy, that's not the
role that a board plays, but Ido think it is something that
(22:25):
more and more folks shouldconsider as something that they
want to do in their career.
And then you know, I'll say onefinal thing.
It's a little bit of a pitch.
A great book I read that kind ofhelped guide me.
A friend sent it to me.
It's called "Strength toStrength by Arthur Brooks and
it's this concept that your life, your career, has, you know,
(22:47):
maybe two or three waves to itand what you were successful at
at the beginning of your careermay not be what gets you to the
end and if you try to hold on tothat it may not be as enjoyable
.
So kind of embrace this idea ofmoving past some of the titles
and chasing kind of the egoparts of a career and put that
(23:09):
behind and see what you can donext.
That's going to make a lastinglegacy to you as a person.
So it's an excellent book.
I'd highly recommend it forfolks.
It may be more for people thatare 50 or over who are kind of
getting close to that or not,but I think anybody could
actually benefit from it.
Because in the book he sayssome people actually their first
(23:29):
curve is very, very short.
If you're an athlete you knowmost NFL athletes three or four
years they've got to figure outwhat they're going to do next,
because they're not going to beon the field anymore.
Rich H (23:40):
Well, and I was going to say and I'll turn it back over
to Paula in a second but I wasgoing to jump in and say that
there's probably some brandsthat should be reading that book
because they take that firstbig win that they get thinking
Palm Pilot, talk about them.
They're gone and they ride thatas long as they can without
innovating, and the landscape islittered with brands that had
(24:00):
their first success and didn'tunderstand how to go through
that second.
Tony W (24:04):
You know what I hadn't thought about that parallel Rich
, but it's the same thing.
You know it's Blockbuster, it'sKodak.
You know it's it's Blockbuster,it's Kodak.
You know it's Borders Books.
You know, like you don't pivot,you don't make the change, and
so anyway, great book.
Paula G (24:24):
You have such a rich and diverse background, is there
a strategy that you've had,that you've employed across your
different industries, thatyou've been a part of?
Tony W (24:29):
Look, Paula, it's a very interesting question and at
times I've wondered if thediversity of verticals I've been
in has hurt me or helped me.
And for me personally, I lovedit because I moved to different
industries and go-to-marketstrategies and I think overall
it made me a better marketer, abetter retail market, because
(24:51):
I'd seen so many different waysyou know, brands and companies
express themselves and how theyuse the four Ps to accomplish
the task.
So I found it beneficial.
Now sometimes you're talking toa company you know, let's just
say financial services.
I know I had interviewed for aCMO at a financial services and
I have that in my background,but they were looking for
(25:13):
somebody that had, you know, 30years and you know, five years
of visa and four years at USA,but that doesn't add up to 30
years.
But what I did find is Nissanautomotive retailing working
through a dealer network,franchises like you.
You have to bring them along.
You can't dictate, you know,and so if you're in a retailer
that has franchises like it's adifferent way, you have to
(25:35):
conduct it.
You got to get them on board.
They have a say in advertising.
And then I go to a malldeveloper and like, okay, my job
is to bring traffic to the malland make sure all the merchants
there are successful.
So now I have to put on aslightly different filter.
Then I spend some time in anagency, which is great.
(25:56):
I'm representing a brand but Idon't get to make the decisions.
But I need to come up with lotsof great ideas that they can go
to market.
I go to Visa.
They're not a consumer brand.
They work through issuing banksand acquiring banks and
merchants.
You know so.
Dealer networks or SchneiderElectric, where they have lots
of different go-to markets.
They sell direct, they gothrough Home Depot and retail.
(26:18):
They go through distributors,they go through integrators.
All these things createdcomplexity around how are you
going to get to the number andhow you're going to move product
and services?
And to me, every time Iswitched it did require a little
bit of extra hard work tounderstand the dynamics of how
the business was run, but Ithink it brought me unique
(26:40):
perspectives that made me abetter marketer, made me a
better executive, because I'dbeen in so many different ways
of viewing the world and theyall market slightly different
and it's just worked out welland it may not be for everyone,
but I do see, you know, gen Z,gen X, like a career now is
often, someone said, a junglegym.
(27:01):
It's not a ladder.
You just don't, it doesn't goup.
You bounce around, you go up,you go down a slide, you come
back up, and you know, alltrying to figure it out along
the way.
Rich H (27:12):
So, I will ask the question - is there a strategy
that you deployed at any pointduring your career that didn't
go as planned or that you'd liketo have back?
Because, knowing then, you knownow you might have done a
little bit differently.
probably would point to my timeat ADT.
It was a very challenging time.
(27:35):
I was at ADT from 2012 to 2014.
And that was the exact momentthat all the cable and telco
brands decided to get into thehome security business.
And so you went from a brandthat had 80% share of voice.
All of a sudden you're dealingwith cable networks and wireless
(27:56):
providers that have medianetworks at their disposal.
So we're going up againstComcast.
Well, comcast has cable, so youcan rest assured that the
customers that are in theirfootprint are going to have a
pretty high share of voice.
They're going to be seeing itevery night when they turn on
their television.
So I would say, rich, it's notone thing specific, I think,
meeting that moment.
(28:17):
For me, if I had to do that allover, I would approach it very
differently in terms ofexpectations around share of
voice and how maybe the brandshould have pivoted a slightly
different to meet that moment.
You know ADT got through thatmoment, but it was some
significant headwinds and whenyou're used to being the big dog
(28:38):
you know in the neighborhoodand all of a sudden you've got
multiple brands on a, you knowon a national basis, kind of
coming after a market share.
You know it was tough going.
Paula G (28:48):
To get to where you've been and to see what you've seen
.
Is there any advice that jumpsout at you that really has made
an impact?
Tony W (28:56):
Yeah, one is an approach and one is just advice that I'd
give someone.
The approach would be no one'sgoing to manage your career
better than you and you have tobe vested in it.
And that kind of sounds stupid.
Of course I'm vested in my andthat kind of sounds stupid.
Of course I'm vested in mycareer.
But really, and what do I meanby that?
And I'll give you some examples.
(29:23):
I'm amazed by the number offolks that have worked for me or
have worked in my organizationwho take a semi-annual or annual
review and don't maximize it.
They'll fill out the formthat's in the HR.
You know information systemsand workday or whatever.
They'll fill that out.
Here's all the things I did.
But they won't show up for thatvery important meeting with
their boss with more context,more color, asking for more
(29:44):
support than you would think.
And those are moments.
That's your moment.
You've worked all year.
You should insist that.
You know I want 60 or 90minutes to walk through what I
did.
But, more importantly, rear viewmirror is great, because that's
obviously what you're going toget your mirror, your bonus.
You have to spend time on it,but spend as much time, I would
say, looking forward through thewindshield.
Here's what I want toaccomplish, boss.
(30:07):
Here's some of my careeraspirations.
Here's a couple of stretchgoals.
Be really, really buttoned up,thoughtful, and help your boss.
Help you reach the careeraspirations or the goals that
you have.
Most cases they want to, butthey can't read your mind and
it's not just like well, I wantto go from a manager to a
director, a director to VP yeah,that's part of it, you know.
(30:30):
Go from a manager to a director, a director to VP yeah, that's
part of it.
But you need much, much more interms of tell me how I can get
there.
But another question I would saywhen you're doing a performance
review is ask the force rankyou.
If there are five managers,you're one of five managers.
Ask your boss to say of thosefive, how do I rank?
A lot of organizations may nottell that.
But if you're one or two, allright, you're in the game.
(30:51):
But if they tell you, well,you're four or five, you better
pick up the pace and that's anopportunity to go.
Well, why am I four or five inyour view, and what can I do to
get to two or three, to getfurther?
Sometimes an organization willtell you and send you signals
and you're not picking up on it.
But a conversation like that,when they say, oh, you're five
(31:12):
of five, you're at the bottom,that may mean that you have to
make some tough decisions foryourself.
This might not be theorganization for you, this might
not be the department, thismight not be the role, and if
you think hard about that, youcan make decisions now that are
best for you.
So take the review and themapping of what you want to do
next in your career.
Spend time on it.
Don't just blow by and go.
(31:34):
I got my 3% merit increase andI got my bonus and I'm out the
door.
Thank you very much.
That's super important time andyou need to enlist your boss to
help you on your journey.
And then the second is just moreof a mindset, which is it's a
marine for me carryover, whichis know yourself, know your job
and know your people.
So know yourself in terms ofwhat are your strengths, what
(31:58):
are your weaknesses, what drivesyou and kind of how you relate
in this context.
Know your job that's aroundcompetency, like that is that's
the table stakes.
You have to be competent atyour job and challenge yourself,
and you know, being a lifelonglearner and continuing to
improve your skills.
Lastly is know your people.
What are their strengths andweaknesses?
How do you play to that?
How do you be a servant leaderfor them?
How do you set them up forsuccess, both career wise, but
(32:20):
also obtaining the mission?
And I think if you can do bothof those, I like your odd.
That's when you know hard workmeets luck and good things
happen.
Paula G (32:30):
Yeah, absolutely, and thanks for sharing that.
Something that you talked aboutwas taking control of your
career and, obviously, beingassertive and proactive and also
being data driven.
What are some qualities ortraits that you look for for
people on your team?
Tony W (32:44):
So that first one is competence that they know their
job.
Not that they know everything,but they know their job and kind
of what's expected of them.
The second is tenacity.
I believe hard work,scrappiness, resiliency can make
up for so many things that getthrown into a business
environment.
Like do they have some fire intheir belly?
(33:07):
Can they take a punch and getback up?
Some fire in their belly, canthey take a punch and get back
up?
So I really think that you know, if you know your job and man
you're just you got some fire inyour belly like I'll go to war
with anybody that's got thosetwo things.
I like my odds.
Those are two things I hold inreally high regard in terms of
people that I've worked with orworked for or have worked for me
(33:30):
.
Rich H (33:31):
That's a great perspective.
All right, so I'm going topivot to the rapid fire round,
but before I do, I want to closethis section out with one
question what are you mostexcited about when you look at
marketing and consumer behaviorin general?
Tony W (33:46):
Well, look, I don't think there's ever been a more
exciting time to be in retail ormarketing.
There are a lot of pressures.
There's a lot of opportunities.
When you start to look at AI,even beyond AI, quantum
computing there's just someamazing things that are going to
change the environment thatwe're operating in, the consumer
(34:10):
expectations, and so it's goingto be an exciting time.
It's going to require people tobe super agile and nimble and
athletic in order to meet themoment.
But, man, it's exciting.
This is not a place where youcan just rest on your laurels
and I don't care what brand youare.
I mean, look at Apple, greatproduct, I love Apple.
(34:31):
But, man, they've got a macroenvironment that they're
operating in, that they've gotto be nimble, they've got to be
able to meet the moment.
So I think it's an excitingtime, I think, for somebody
who's at kind of near the end oftheir career versus those that
are coming in it right now, like, man, this is going to be fun.
Tighten your chin strap.
It's going to be fun.
Rich H (34:52):
So that is.
That's outstanding.
I would agree with you, and Ithink a lot of times we have a
tendency to look at the negative, and that is absolutely a
positive.
Judy, did you want to jump inwith a question?
Judy S (35:04):
Oh yeah, I had one really quick question.
I really enjoyed hearing yousay that no one is going to
manage your career like you will, because I feel like that's the
point where I'm at.
I'm graduating college.
It's time for me to, you know,break into the marketing world,
retail world.
I just wanted to ask how youmanaged the change from Verizon
to 24-hour fitness.
Where that in-between feelingof just being anxious of what's
(35:27):
coming next?
Tony W (35:34):
Yeah, you know Judy, I think I had two moments in my
career where, like I was scaredDid I say shitless?
It was when I got out of theMarine Corps and I went from
being an infantry officer totrying to get a job in corporate
America, like and I very, veryfortunate that I landed a job in
Nissan's corporatecommunications department, and
because I had been trained alsoas a public affairs officer in
the Marine Corps as a secondaryMOS.
(35:55):
But I was scared.
There was like a month therewhere I didn't know what I was
going to do.
Everything that I'd been about,you know, I wasn't part of the
team anymore because I had, youknow, my papers.
I got my DD-214.
Like I was out.
Man, I was like that was.
And then I think, leavingVerizon after being an operating
executive for so many years, tosay, hey, I'm going to go do
something totally different.
I'm going to go serve as acorporate board director and I'm
(36:18):
going to get involved with someVC activity Scary moments.
But I think preparation.
One of the things I wouldencourage you know folks like
you, judy, to do is network.
I would encourage you knowfolks like you, judy, to do is
network.
Network is not a bad word.
Sometimes I think when I havethree kids 33, 28, and 27, I'm
like you need to network more.
They're like you know.
(36:41):
I don't know if they view thatas like sucking up or like
asking for something, like it isabout putting good karma out in
the world.
And when you network, youexponentially increase the idea
that you're going to connectwith someone, that you can help
or that they can help you.
So it's not a one way, it's nottransactional.
So put yourself out there, seekto meet folks.
You never know who or why orhow someone will come to meet
(37:05):
you.
I think again, always in thoseopportunities, ask somebody what
you can do for them.
Also, can I help you in any way, so that it's not just I'm
trying to make withdrawals.
You have to make deposits inthis thing called networking,
but it is not a bad word.
You shouldn't feel bad aboutdoing it.
It's a good part of life.
(37:26):
It's like meeting people,trying to understand,
understanding their story andseeing how we can help each
other.
Judy S (37:33):
Yeah, I completely understand how your kids feel,
because that's all the adviceI've been getting lately.
It's to network, network,network and I'm like I'm trying
my best here to network witheverybody.
I really appreciate that advice.
I'm definitely going to try mybest.
Thank you so much.
Tony W (37:47):
Hey, Judy, I got one more.
This one's totally free, I'mnot going to even charge you for
this one.
Hey, do some scary stuff now inyour career, take some chances,
you know, kind of on thetrapeze, leap for the bar
without the safety net a littlebit.
And why do I say that?
I find that once you, as youget older and you end up with a
(38:08):
mortgage and kids and a spouseand like, your tolerance for
risk goes dramatically down.
It's a great time now to go dosome things that are different
and exciting, and you'll figureit out as you go along.
But now's the time to take morerisks because you can start
yourself.
You can keep reinventingyourself.
At this point it's kind of hardfor Rich or Tony Wells to
(38:29):
reinvent themselves.
But, judy, you can do it 10times in the next couple of
years.
Judy S (38:33):
I think that also makes it so much scarier because I
know I have so many options andI can do so much with not having
as much risk.
So I feel like it's so positive, but also sometimes I'm like
this is what makes it scary tome.
I want to know that I'm takingall the chances I have and not
regret it in the future.
Paula G (38:49):
Yeah, whatever choice you make is going to be the
right one for you.
So as soon as you make a choice, just be confident in it.
Judy S (38:55):
Well, thank, you so much for all the advice.
I really appreciate it.
Rich H (38:58):
Well, I can speak for Judy, having had her in class,
that she is good at networkingand figuring things out.
So the good thing with her shehas options that she's
considering.
So, Tony, I'm going to pivot tothe rapid fire round and I'm
going to get it started with oneof my favorite questions, one
that I don't think I can answeror answer consistently, but
let's put you on the hot seat.
(39:19):
What is your walk on song?
Tony W (39:21):
It's called "We Ready by Archie Eversol.
And you know what's so funnyabout this, rich yeah, you're
like that didn't't roll off your.
You're like, oh yeah, I knowthat song, we Ready by Archie
Eversol.
I was actually the other dayreading the Marine Times and
there was a story about, I think, a deployed MEU Marine
Expedition Unit and theymentioned that they were playing
(39:43):
this song on the flight deckbefore they took off to kind of
do some training operation.
And I was like, okay, that's agood go to battle song right
there, like that, you shouldplay it at some point during
this podcast.
So people cause it probablywon't roll off the tongue for
everybody, but it's, it's a goodgo to battle song.
Rich H (40:01):
So We Ready?
I'm adding it to mine.
Paula G (40:10):
Sorry, It was my turn, but I was googling the song and
listening to it, so it was yes,we will have to insert the song
in that awkward silence becausethat was there, you go, put it
in the silence.
So, uh, next rapid fire.
What would be your last meal ifyou could choose?
Tony W (40:23):
Probably pizza, pepperoni, sausage and mushroom
pizza.
That is.
That's my comfort food.
Like I have that and I'm goodto go.
Paula G (40:31):
Okay, what style then?
Tony W (40:33):
That's a good question.
Probably just traditional, justa regular.
You know, not thin, not NewYork, not deep dish, not Detroit
, like you know all thesedifferent pizza styles, but it's
just regular, nice, good crust.
Rich H (40:47):
All right, so I'm going to close it out.
Do you still know how manypush-ups you can do?
Tony W (40:51):
You know, that's funny, Rich.
The other day I was doing aworkout and I got to 20, and I
was hurting, so I'm going to go.
You know, my life depended onit.
I think I could probably do 30,but that's about it.
Rich H (41:03):
Well, that's about 29 more than I can do, you know.
Tony W (41:06):
So at this age you lose so much muscle mass.
That's what I'm blaming you onmy age.
Rich H (41:10):
You're keeping it All right.
So I'm going to the lastquestion.
You can transport yourselfanywhere in the world for 24
hours, instantly there,instantly back, so you don't
have to worry about how longit's going to take you to get
there and come back.
Where would you go?
Tony W (41:24):
Wow, that's a tough one.
I'd probably go to MountEverest.
Just in terms of a grand place,that makes you realize how
small you are in the world, likehow big this thing, planet
Earth, is.
And if you go to the top ofMount Everest I would assume
you'd be reminded of that prettydarn quickly.
And it's funny.
(41:45):
I had a Naval Academy classmatethat was actually doing that
and he's been sending picturesback.
So it's yeah, I'd probably doMount Everest.
Rich H (41:52):
Now I will tell you as many times as we've asked that
question, most people willdefault to someplace they've
been.
It's very seldom that someonegoes someplace they haven't been
and I think you pun intended,have kind of hit the mountaintop
as to where you would go.
Hey, tony, this was an absolutepleasure from beginning to end.
(42:14):
A set of lessons learned.
I greatly appreciate it and I'mactually hoping you come back
and maybe co-host a couple ofthese with us.
What do you say?
Tony W (42:23):
Yeah, Rich, I'd love to do that.
I appreciate that that's anhonor to be asked to do that,
but I definitely enjoyopportunities to kind of convey
and I think at this point, likeI said in my career the ability
to give back and help others,and if there's just one little
nugget in here that helpssomebody along the way, it's
worthwhile.
So thanks for the opportunityto talk to your audience and,
(42:45):
Paula and Judy, it's been great.
Welcome to Retail Relates, where we connect the
world of retail through realstories, practical lessons and
conversations with today'sindustry experts and influencers
.
I'm one of your co-hosts, RichHoniball, and we're kicking off
a new season with our co-creatorand co-host, Paula Gean, right
here in the studio and, new thisseason, we're going to be
bringing in a roundtable vibewith guest co-hosts to add fresh
(00:46):
context and perspectives.
Joining us also in the studiotoday is Judy Sejini.
She is one of my formerstudents at George Mason
University, a recent graduatejust starting her career, and
our first student guest co-host.
Judy planned to audit this onequietly, but curiosity has a way
of jumping in and, honestly,that's a superpower that we
encourage in the world today.
(01:06):
Our guest this episode is TonyWells, a senior executive
marketer whose path runs fromthe Marine Corps to the C-suite.
He's led some of the mostvisible brand and media
platforms in the country andhe's here to talk about what
really drives growth,opportunity and momentum in
modern commerce and how to takecharge of your own mission, your
career.
A little bit more about Tony.
(01:27):
He is a marketing executiveknown for progressive, agile
leadership.
He's currently a venturepartner at AZ-VC, arizona's
largest venture fund, and mostrecently served as the chief
media officer at Verizon,leading integrated media
strategy for a global technologyand communications leader.
Previously, Tony was the ChiefBrand Officer at USAA and held
(01:47):
senior CMO roles at SnyderElectric, ADT and 24-Hour
Fitness, with senior posts atVisa and Charles Schwab.
He serves on the boards of Yelp, Nexstar and TripleLift.
A US Marine Corps infantryofficer - because you are never
a former Marine - Tony is a USNaval Academy graduate with
executive studies at JohnsHopkins Carey Business School.
(02:09):
To say that Tony's experienceand accomplishments are
impressive would be a vastunderstatement.
In this conversation, Tonythreads together lessons from
the core and from the boardroomwhy the best marketers balance
performance marketing with brandinvestment.
How to articulate the why andthe why now to build connection
and urgency, how our careersevolve and why the skills that
(02:31):
got us to this point may not bethe skills that drive us forward
.
We also get candid about risk,pushing past the fear of the
unknown and how to invest inourselves when the path ahead is
unclear and not guaranteed.
So whether you're just startingout or leading large teams,
planning an award-winning,customer-focused campaign or
your own career roadmap, there'sa lot to learn here.
(02:54):
We think you'll take away somepowerful, practical truths from
this episode, so let's go aheadand jump right in.
So it's my pleasure today towelcome Tony Wells to Retail
Relates.
We've just read Tony's bio.
He has a tremendous amount ofexperience in marketing,
consumer behavior and much more.
Hey, Tony, welcome to theprogram.
Tony W (03:15):
Thanks, Rich, it's great to be here.
Rich H (03:17):
I'm joined by my co-host , Paula Gean.
Paula, great to see you.
Paula G (03:20):
Rich, it's great seeing you, as always.
Thank you Tony, for being on.
Tony W (03:23):
My pleasure!
Rich H (03:24):
Paula normally asks the first question, but I'm going to
go ahead and jump in with thisone.
We've read your bio.
You are immensely talented, butone of the questions that has
become a kind of a hallmark toRetail Relates is instead of
going through the linearprogression of your career, what
are the three pivotal momentsin your life that have gotten
(03:44):
you to where you are today?
I think it can be personal,professional, whatever you
choose.
Tony W (03:49):
Well, I'll just, I'll stay career oriented.
I think there's three things.
One was, I think, my time atthe Naval Academy and being
commissioned as a Marineinfantry officer.
I think it had a profoundeffect on me in terms of how I
view the world, how I processinformation, how I attack
(04:12):
problems and how I try to leadas a servant leader.
That would be the first, Ithink.
The second was probably when Iwas at Nissan as a kind of
mid-level manager.
I had an unbelievable boss whoI credit kind of with putting me
on a different trajectory interms of my career.
One by kind of grabbing me fromanother business unit and
(04:35):
bringing me over to work inautomotive retail or at least on
the factory side, and investingin me and challenging me and, I
think, for opening up my eyesthat I could really do more, and
so that idea of boss and mentor.
And I think the third was whenI got the first time to be a CMO
of an organization.
(04:56):
I think making that leap to theC-suite for me was really
impactful and I think itcrystallized for me like hey, I
belong here, I can do this.
And I think, like a lot offolks, I suffer occasionally
from imposter syndrome and itproved to me like hey, you've
got the talent, you have theability to stay here and do this
(05:18):
job and guide a brand towardsuccessful business outcomes.
Paula G (05:24):
I know why Rich is smiling because of the imposter
syndrome.
That's really something we allstruggle with and talk about
here.
Tony, thank you so much forbeing vulnerable and for sharing
that.
You make it sound so easy, asif one day you looked around and
you were just all of a suddenin the C-suite.
But we know it's a difficultjourney.
Is there any particular pointin that journey that stands out
(05:45):
for you?
That taught you a criticallesson?
Whether that be good or bad?
Tony W (05:52):
The first when I was at Visa.
I was a VP level sponsorshipmarketing, a member of the
marketing team, and I knew thatI wanted to be a CMO.
But the challenge at Visa atthat time was that there were a
lot of very tenured folks andwhen I went to the organization
saying hey, I'd like to move toanother role that could get me
(06:13):
there, it just kind of fell ondeaf ears.
It happens in organizationssometimes, and so for me what I
took away from that is like, hey, if I'm going to sit in that
chair one day, I may have to doit at another place, another
company.
And I loved Visa.
It was a great, still it's agreat brand.
I enjoyed my time there but Ileft and went to 24 Hour Fitness
(06:36):
, went to work for CEO CarlLiebert, who I actually shared a
Naval Academy experience with,naval Academy experience with,
but I got my first CMO rolethere.
Much smaller brand.
I went from, you know, anine-figure brand in terms of
(06:56):
marketing spend and investmentdown to a brand that spent at
the peak maybe 60, 65 million.
So in many respects, in terms ofpresence and spend and things
that sometimes marketers gaugeespecially retail marketers
gauge whether they're successfulor impactful enough.
I took a step back in order, Ithink, ultimately to go a step
forward, and you always have tobe worried about confirmation
(07:19):
bias in this that oh, it workedfor me, then it's going to work
for everybody.
And they said, oh, it workedfor me, then it's going to work
for everybody.
That going to another brand, asmaller brand, in order to get a
chance to sit in that seat andto achieve something that was on
my kind of career roadmapturned out to be one of the best
decisions and thankful for myVisa experience.
But going to 24-Hour Fitnessyou know 21,000 employees, you
(07:42):
know 400 locations, did retail,kind of did you know services as
it relates to fitness, openednew stores, private equity, like
, I just learned a lot, and so Iguess the takeaway would be
sometimes you have to take astep back in order to go too
forward.
Paula G (08:01):
The slingshot effect.
Tony W (08:03):
And I would say one other thing in my career, I went
to ADT as the CMO in 2012.
I left 24-Hour Fitness to go toADT.
I was really attracted by thecompany's mission.
I had a great CEO in RainGorsani.
They were spinning off fromTyco, so it was an IPO.
It was just a lot of thingsthat were very attractive.
(08:32):
90 days after I got there, mywife was diagnosed with colon
cancer, and so here we were,moving from California to
Florida, and I said I'm not sureit makes sense to move now.
You know all of her friends,her network, her healthcare was
all based in California and wewould have had to rip all that
out to move across the country.
And so for the next two years Icommuted.
My first year I commuted like50 out of 52 weeks, basically
(08:56):
almost.
I think I maybe missed fourweekends where I didn't fly back
home on a Friday and then takea red-eye Sunday back into
Florida, and so it was verychallenging.
Obviously, the business waschallenging in terms of what was
happening, but the personalside, in terms of just what
you're facing and I think again,the lesson there is like, hey,
(09:17):
your health is your wealth, andso, as a career takeaway is,
like you know, invest inyourself, take care of yourself,
put your oxygen mask on firstbefore you can help others a
little bit.
Because for me that was verytrying time obviously making
sure my wife got through thatand trying to support her, but
during that time I was runningragged.
(09:39):
It was a really aggressive wayto personally kind of have to go
through that.
Put on a bunch of weight, wasdead, tired, but at the end of
the day the balance on that islike you can only do that for so
long until the wheels kind offall off.
So this idea of work-lifebalance making sure you're
taking care of yourself and yourfamily and your loved ones and
(10:00):
those that are important to youthat's the other takeaway.
Rich H (10:06):
You mentioned servant leadership and the importance of
that.
How do you define that and howhave you carried forth what you
learned at the Naval Academy andthe Marine Corps into what you
do today?
Tony W (10:19):
Yeah, I mean, there's a book in fact that I think
embodies this kind of the ethosof a Marine officer, which is
officers eat last, and this is atrue story.
I've been out to the field lotsof times and you may get one
hot meal if you're out oftraining and when you get to the
(10:40):
end of the line there's maybenot as much protein as you.
The mission first, but you haveto be mindful of taking care of
your people and kind of beingin the trenches with them titles
and where I office and allthese things and it's.
It can be really easy to losesight that your your first job
(11:07):
is if you take care of yourpeople and you give them good
direction and you have, you know, good people that they will get
to the outcomes.
But I think a big part of thatis them believing that they know
you will take care of them,that you don't have any hidden
agenda, that you just want toaccomplish the mission, and I
think that has served me well.
(11:27):
I will say that I loved being aMarine.
It was the best job.
There's nothing like being aplatoon commander as a second or
first lieutenant Like it is thebest job.
I think.
Maybe my whole career I've beenchasing a little bit to get
that same esprit de corps, thatsame camaraderie and same focus
on mission.
And you know, maybe I've comeclose a couple of times.
(11:49):
But being a Marine officer wasthe best job I ever had and it's
not one for 60-year-old guyslike me anymore but it did have
big impact in how I look at theworld and the filters that I,
you know, kind of see the worldthrough.
Rich H (12:03):
Well, and you just handled that answer with grace.
And I'm going to point out toPaula what she may have missed,
but I know your background andso I know you were an officer in
the Marines but I went NavalAcademy to Navy and you
gracefully let me off the hookand mentioned your Marine
background.
Of course, Navy and Marinesbeing a - it's one team.
Tony W (12:24):
It's a team.
It's the Navy and Marine Corpsteam.
Rich H (12:26):
But I appreciate how deftly maneuvered that was.
So your background has beenconsumer marketing, performance
marketing.
You've been around theperiphery of retail and at first
glance somebody would look atyour background and say, well,
has he been in retail?
You and I would say absolutely.
How do you define retail andhow would you define it in the
(12:49):
context of your career?
Tony W (12:51):
Wow, that's interesting.
So I'm going to defend that.
I feel like I'm a retailmarketer.
So automotive again, maybe moreon the factory, so if
somebody's at a dealershipthey'll go.
Oh, that's not automotiveretailing or Visa dealing with
thousands of merchants andtransactions 24-hour fitness.
So I think retail is anythingwhere a consumer is looking kind
(13:14):
of come in and make a decision,needs to select from a wide
array of products that theycould potentially select from.
And I also believe for the mostpart there's a physical
experiential nature to it.
All you know, where you havethis tactile ability to touch or
feel or be engaged with a teammember who's helping you
(13:38):
potentially transact or makethat, you know, make that
purchase decision.
So that's how I kind of viewretail.
Rich H (13:46):
So I was hoping you were going to take the bait on that
one, because we've had thatconversation about retail being
a much broader defined industryand we have one of my former
students an A student, I'llmention who is auditing the
podcast today, and Judy'sprobably smiling a little bit
because this hopefully echoeswhat we've been teaching in
class, which is that many timeswhen people think of retail they
(14:09):
think of just the front line orthey may think of buying to a
certain extent marketing but itis a wonderful 360 degree
periphery.
If you are defining the mostcritical metric in marketing
today.
Obviously we always are goingto not default, but we want to
drive sales, we want to driveprofitable revenue.
(14:30):
That's what pays the bills.
But what are the most criticalmetrics that you go into an
organization and say this isreally what I'm looking at.
I know that's a broad question.
I'm giving you a little bit oflatitude here.
Tony W (14:43):
You're putting me on the spot here, Rich.
I'm going to throw in aneditorial comment, maybe
unsolicited at first.
As I look out, I see, from myperspective, a very alarming
trend and that is that I think alot of marketers and brands
have over-rotated towardperformance marketing.
And I get why you're doing it.
(15:03):
You're trying to make the cashregister ring, you're trying to
get a conversion on a website, Iunderstand it.
But I also believe, when youover-rotate and don't invest in
brand, I think you lose marginand pricing power, I think you
lose brand equity.
That when your brand goesthrough a tough time, your
(15:23):
customers kind of give you alittle bit of grace and I think
you get away from many of thetrappings of pricing, and I do
think that today's marketershave kind of overcompensated for
that.
That said, I think you needkind of a nice blend of brand
and performance marketingmetrics.
(15:44):
So if I was coming into a retailorganization, I'd want to know
a little bit around awareness ofthe brand and consideration.
So when unprompted, unaidedawareness?
So not prompting on a piece ofresearch, but saying, hey, who
are the top brands in thiscategory?
And then the next is sayingconsideration.
So you now know that you'rebuying this widget, what are
(16:07):
your top two or three brands?
I want to know that I'm in thatgroup, with a very, very high
degree of likelihood that I'm onthe shopping list.
Next I would be looking attraffic.
So people size Like how big isthe basket?
Are we getting a fair share ofwallets?
(16:35):
So those would be the three tofour and I might put in
something around NPS or OSAT toconnect the loyalty button to
see if they're going to comeback, are they likely to refer
and I know there's a lot ofdebate around JD Power versus
NPS and all these differentmetrics but I do believe that
(16:56):
high referral ability from abrand, from a current customer,
can help reduce your marketingexpense and get that repeat
purchase which I think is soimportant in today's world.
Rich H (17:07):
Yeah, we could have an entire podcast on debating NPS,
and I agree with you, though,and I think it's more about
having consistency in the metric, and not necessarily there's
always going to be differentviewpoints on that satisfaction
metric, but it would be fun tograb a bunch of marketers and
debate it, and we would probablyget nowhere.
Tony W (17:29):
Now rate me there.
Rich, those KPIs.
Do they resonate with you?
Did I forget anything there?
Rich H (17:34):
Oh they absolutely do.
I think traffic and conversionis a critical one.
I think aided and unaidedawareness and I do agree with
you that I think and I washaving this debate at a
conference I was at last week isthat in many respects, and I'll
say industry-widewide, becauseobviously I think we do it well,
but we have fallen victim tothe urgencies that today brings.
(17:59):
And you can see brands andretailers and companies that
aren't investing in their brandand that aren't investing in the
future.
They're very transactionaltowards today because they're
trying to hit a quarter, they'retrying to hit something, and I
think that can weaken the andyou and I have seen brands and
companies that have gone out ofbusiness over time because they
(18:20):
haven't made that investment.
Tony W (18:21):
Yeah, and look, as I said, I think, to me, brand is
around, so let's just pick thelast brand.
I was at Verizon.
Why?
Verizon Performance answers thequestion is why now?
So, hey, at the top withVerizon.
I want to talk about the powerof the network, the reliability,
the dependability, the coverageand potential benefits that you
(18:44):
get as a customer.
Is why now, okay, we've got agreat offer, great price, a free
phone that we can give you andthat tells you come on in now.
And I think you've got todeliver on both of those,
because if you just say I have afree phone, I have a free phone
, I have a free phone, you losethe benefit of like, okay, then
I'm just shopping every two orthree years for a new, you know,
(19:05):
phone, not basing my decisionon the power of the network and
the coverage and the reliabilitythat I give.
Paula G (19:11):
It's value selling or value buying, I guess.
Tony W (19:14):
Value is benefits over price, and if you just focus on
the denominator.
If you just focus on thedenominator, the end game to me
is not very pleasant.
Paula G (19:24):
I want to ask you a question about your career now.
So you've gone from thisexecutive career to sitting on
boards.
At what point in your careerdid you realize that that is
something that you wanted toachieve, or that was a goal of
yours, or it made sense for you,and then how did you actually
make that happen?
So it's not easy to get on someof these corporate boards,
(19:46):
especially.
Tony W (19:48):
Great question, Paula.
I went on my first boardactually a nonprofit board when
I was on the National Board ofMothers Against Drunk Driving
and I was representing Nissan,who was a corporate sponsor, and
that's when I got my firsttaste of governance and managing
risk and helping anorganization get the outcomes.
That gave me the first tasteand I think probably around 2019
(20:13):
, 2020, there was a lot of talkaround CMOs being on boards and
up to that point, I think mostboards really favored a CEO or a
CFO for participation and Ithink there's a lot of new
thinking around this, arounddiversity of who's in the
boardroom, the benefit of havingan IT expert, someone that sat
(20:36):
in the CHRO spot, someone thatsat on the CMO that can help
around growth, and so that'swhen I, around that time,
decided that that's something Iwant to consider, something I
want to do as an evolution of mycareer, and I was very
fortunate to do a bunch ofnonprofit work, which is what I
always tell people who ask mehey, how do you go about it?
(20:58):
Build that.
And then I got my firstopportunity to be on a VC board
for a company, a softwarecompany, and that kind of
brought me into the commercial.
My first public board was Yelpin 2020.
So it's been a remarkablejourney.
I do think more CMO and moreretailers need chief
(21:19):
merchandising officers, chiefdigital officers.
There's a lot of folks that Ican add value in the boardroom
because they talk growth andthey also have a very unique
perspective on kind of theconsumer mindset being the voice
of the customer For me, though.
I will tell you, paula, that Ifound it really, really
rewarding.
I feel so blessed Two years agowhen I left Verizon and decided
(21:41):
that I was no longer going tobe an operating exec.
This Nextar, which does they'rethe largest owner of TV
stations and they own the CWnetwork and News Nation and so
very connected to the space thatI've operated in.
And then TripleLift, which isowned by Vista Equity and
(22:03):
they're a programmatic supplyside ad tech partner, so they've
been a blessing to my career.
It allows me to stay close tobusiness and, trust me, being on
the board is different thanbeing an operating exec.
It's kind of like nose in,hands out.
As much as I sometimes want tolean in heavy, that's not the
role that a board plays, but Ido think it is something that
(22:25):
more and more folks shouldconsider as something that they
want to do in their career.
And then you know, I'll say onefinal thing.
It's a little bit of a pitch.
A great book I read that kind ofhelped guide me.
A friend sent it to me.
It's called "Strength toStrength by Arthur Brooks and
it's this concept that your life, your career, has, you know,
(22:47):
maybe two or three waves to itand what you were successful at
at the beginning of your careermay not be what gets you to the
end and if you try to hold on tothat it may not be as enjoyable
.
So kind of embrace this idea ofmoving past some of the titles
and chasing kind of the egoparts of a career and put that
(23:09):
behind and see what you can donext.
That's going to make a lastinglegacy to you as a person.
So it's an excellent book.
I'd highly recommend it forfolks.
It may be more for people thatare 50 or over who are kind of
getting close to that or not,but I think anybody could
actually benefit from it.
Because in the book he sayssome people actually their first
(23:29):
curve is very, very short.
If you're an athlete you knowmost NFL athletes three or four
years they've got to figure outwhat they're going to do next,
because they're not going to beon the field anymore.
Rich H (23:40):
Well, and I was going to say and I'll turn it back over
to Paula in a second but I wasgoing to jump in and say that
there's probably some brandsthat should be reading that book
because they take that firstbig win that they get thinking
Palm Pilot, talk about them.
They're gone and they ride thatas long as they can without
innovating, and the landscape islittered with brands that had
(24:00):
their first success and didn'tunderstand how to go through
that second.
Tony W (24:04):
You know what I hadn't thought about that parallel Rich
, but it's the same thing.
You know it's Blockbuster, it'sKodak.
You know it's it's Blockbuster,it's Kodak.
You know it's Borders Books.
You know, like you don't pivot,you don't make the change, and
so anyway, great book.
Paula G (24:24):
You have such a rich and diverse background, is there
a strategy that you've had,that you've employed across your
different industries, thatyou've been a part of?
Tony W (24:29):
Look, Paula, it's a very interesting question and at
times I've wondered if thediversity of verticals I've been
in has hurt me or helped me.
And for me personally, I lovedit because I moved to different
industries and go-to-marketstrategies and I think overall
it made me a better marketer, abetter retail market, because
(24:51):
I'd seen so many different waysyou know, brands and companies
express themselves and how theyuse the four Ps to accomplish
the task.
So I found it beneficial.
Now sometimes you're talking toa company you know, let's just
say financial services.
I know I had interviewed for aCMO at a financial services and
I have that in my background,but they were looking for
(25:13):
somebody that had, you know, 30years and you know, five years
of visa and four years at USA,but that doesn't add up to 30
years.
But what I did find is Nissanautomotive retailing working
through a dealer network,franchises like you.
You have to bring them along.
You can't dictate, you know,and so if you're in a retailer
that has franchises like it's adifferent way, you have to
(25:35):
conduct it.
You got to get them on board.
They have a say in advertising.
And then I go to a malldeveloper and like, okay, my job
is to bring traffic to the malland make sure all the merchants
there are successful.
So now I have to put on aslightly different filter.
Then I spend some time in anagency, which is great.
(25:56):
I'm representing a brand but Idon't get to make the decisions.
But I need to come up with lotsof great ideas that they can go
to market.
I go to Visa.
They're not a consumer brand.
They work through issuing banksand acquiring banks and
merchants.
You know so.
Dealer networks or SchneiderElectric, where they have lots
of different go-to markets.
They sell direct, they gothrough Home Depot and retail.
(26:18):
They go through distributors,they go through integrators.
All these things createdcomplexity around how are you
going to get to the number andhow you're going to move product
and services?
And to me, every time Iswitched it did require a little
bit of extra hard work tounderstand the dynamics of how
the business was run, but Ithink it brought me unique
(26:40):
perspectives that made me abetter marketer, made me a
better executive, because I'dbeen in so many different ways
of viewing the world and theyall market slightly different
and it's just worked out welland it may not be for everyone,
but I do see, you know, gen Z,gen X, like a career now is
often, someone said, a junglegym.
(27:01):
It's not a ladder.
You just don't, it doesn't goup.
You bounce around, you go up,you go down a slide, you come
back up, and you know, alltrying to figure it out along
the way.
Rich H (27:12):
So, I will ask the question - is there a strategy
that you deployed at any pointduring your career that didn't
go as planned or that you'd liketo have back?
Because, knowing then, you knownow you might have done a
little bit differently.
probably would point to my timeat ADT.
It was a very challenging time.
(27:35):
I was at ADT from 2012 to 2014.
And that was the exact momentthat all the cable and telco
brands decided to get into thehome security business.
And so you went from a brandthat had 80% share of voice.
All of a sudden you're dealingwith cable networks and wireless
(27:56):
providers that have medianetworks at their disposal.
So we're going up againstComcast.
Well, comcast has cable, so youcan rest assured that the
customers that are in theirfootprint are going to have a
pretty high share of voice.
They're going to be seeing itevery night when they turn on
their television.
So I would say, rich, it's notone thing specific, I think,
meeting that moment.
(28:17):
For me, if I had to do that allover, I would approach it very
differently in terms ofexpectations around share of
voice and how maybe the brandshould have pivoted a slightly
different to meet that moment.
You know ADT got through thatmoment, but it was some
significant headwinds and whenyou're used to being the big dog
(28:38):
you know in the neighborhoodand all of a sudden you've got
multiple brands on a, you knowon a national basis, kind of
coming after a market share.
You know it was tough going.
Paula G (28:48):
To get to where you've been and to see what you've seen
.
Is there any advice that jumpsout at you that really has made
an impact?
Tony W (28:56):
Yeah, one is an approach and one is just advice that I'd
give someone.
The approach would be no one'sgoing to manage your career
better than you and you have tobe vested in it.
And that kind of sounds stupid.
Of course I'm vested in my andthat kind of sounds stupid.
Of course I'm vested in mycareer.
But really, and what do I meanby that?
And I'll give you some examples.
(29:23):
I'm amazed by the number offolks that have worked for me or
have worked in my organizationwho take a semi-annual or annual
review and don't maximize it.
They'll fill out the formthat's in the HR.
You know information systemsand workday or whatever.
They'll fill that out.
Here's all the things I did.
But they won't show up for thatvery important meeting with
their boss with more context,more color, asking for more
(29:44):
support than you would think.
And those are moments.
That's your moment.
You've worked all year.
You should insist that.
You know I want 60 or 90minutes to walk through what I
did.
But, more importantly, rear viewmirror is great, because that's
obviously what you're going toget your mirror, your bonus.
You have to spend time on it,but spend as much time, I would
say, looking forward through thewindshield.
Here's what I want toaccomplish, boss.
(30:07):
Here's some of my careeraspirations.
Here's a couple of stretchgoals.
Be really, really buttoned up,thoughtful, and help your boss.
Help you reach the careeraspirations or the goals that
you have.
Most cases they want to, butthey can't read your mind and
it's not just like well, I wantto go from a manager to a
director, a director to VP yeah,that's part of it, you know.
(30:30):
Go from a manager to a director, a director to VP yeah, that's
part of it.
But you need much, much more interms of tell me how I can get
there.
But another question I would saywhen you're doing a performance
review is ask the force rankyou.
If there are five managers,you're one of five managers.
Ask your boss to say of thosefive, how do I rank?
A lot of organizations may nottell that.
But if you're one or two, allright, you're in the game.
(30:51):
But if they tell you, well,you're four or five, you better
pick up the pace and that's anopportunity to go.
Well, why am I four or five inyour view, and what can I do to
get to two or three, to getfurther?
Sometimes an organization willtell you and send you signals
and you're not picking up on it.
But a conversation like that,when they say, oh, you're five
(31:12):
of five, you're at the bottom,that may mean that you have to
make some tough decisions foryourself.
This might not be theorganization for you, this might
not be the department, thismight not be the role, and if
you think hard about that, youcan make decisions now that are
best for you.
So take the review and themapping of what you want to do
next in your career.
Spend time on it.
Don't just blow by and go.
(31:34):
I got my 3% merit increase andI got my bonus and I'm out the
door.
Thank you very much.
That's super important time andyou need to enlist your boss to
help you on your journey.
And then the second is just moreof a mindset, which is it's a
marine for me carryover, whichis know yourself, know your job
and know your people.
So know yourself in terms ofwhat are your strengths, what
(31:58):
are your weaknesses, what drivesyou and kind of how you relate
in this context.
Know your job that's aroundcompetency, like that is that's
the table stakes.
You have to be competent atyour job and challenge yourself,
and you know, being a lifelonglearner and continuing to
improve your skills.
Lastly is know your people.
What are their strengths andweaknesses?
How do you play to that?
How do you be a servant leaderfor them?
How do you set them up forsuccess, both career wise, but
(32:20):
also obtaining the mission?
And I think if you can do bothof those, I like your odd.
That's when you know hard workmeets luck and good things
happen.
Paula G (32:30):
Yeah, absolutely, and thanks for sharing that.
Something that you talked aboutwas taking control of your
career and, obviously, beingassertive and proactive and also
being data driven.
What are some qualities ortraits that you look for for
people on your team?
Tony W (32:44):
So that first one is competence that they know their
job.
Not that they know everything,but they know their job and kind
of what's expected of them.
The second is tenacity.
I believe hard work,scrappiness, resiliency can make
up for so many things that getthrown into a business
environment.
Like do they have some fire intheir belly?
(33:07):
Can they take a punch and getback up?
Some fire in their belly, canthey take a punch and get back
up?
So I really think that you know, if you know your job and man
you're just you got some fire inyour belly like I'll go to war
with anybody that's got thosetwo things.
I like my odds.
Those are two things I hold inreally high regard in terms of
people that I've worked with orworked for or have worked for me
(33:30):
.
Rich H (33:31):
That's a great perspective.
All right, so I'm going topivot to the rapid fire round,
but before I do, I want to closethis section out with one
question what are you mostexcited about when you look at
marketing and consumer behaviorin general?
Tony W (33:46):
Well, look, I don't think there's ever been a more
exciting time to be in retail ormarketing.
There are a lot of pressures.
There's a lot of opportunities.
When you start to look at AI,even beyond AI, quantum
computing there's just someamazing things that are going to
change the environment thatwe're operating in, the consumer
(34:10):
expectations, and so it's goingto be an exciting time.
It's going to require people tobe super agile and nimble and
athletic in order to meet themoment.
But, man, it's exciting.
This is not a place where youcan just rest on your laurels
and I don't care what brand youare.
I mean, look at Apple, greatproduct, I love Apple.
(34:31):
But, man, they've got a macroenvironment that they're
operating in, that they've gotto be nimble, they've got to be
able to meet the moment.
So I think it's an excitingtime, I think, for somebody
who's at kind of near the end oftheir career versus those that
are coming in it right now, like, man, this is going to be fun.
Tighten your chin strap.
It's going to be fun.
Rich H (34:52):
So that is.
That's outstanding.
I would agree with you, and Ithink a lot of times we have a
tendency to look at the negative, and that is absolutely a
positive.
Judy, did you want to jump inwith a question?
Judy S (35:04):
Oh yeah, I had one really quick question.
I really enjoyed hearing yousay that no one is going to
manage your career like you will, because I feel like that's the
point where I'm at.
I'm graduating college.
It's time for me to, you know,break into the marketing world,
retail world.
I just wanted to ask how youmanaged the change from Verizon
to 24-hour fitness.
Where that in-between feelingof just being anxious of what's
(35:27):
coming next?
Tony W (35:34):
Yeah, you know Judy, I think I had two moments in my
career where, like I was scaredDid I say shitless?
It was when I got out of theMarine Corps and I went from
being an infantry officer totrying to get a job in corporate
America, like and I very, veryfortunate that I landed a job in
Nissan's corporatecommunications department, and
because I had been trained alsoas a public affairs officer in
the Marine Corps as a secondaryMOS.
(35:55):
But I was scared.
There was like a month therewhere I didn't know what I was
going to do.
Everything that I'd been about,you know, I wasn't part of the
team anymore because I had, youknow, my papers.
I got my DD-214.
Like I was out.
Man, I was like that was.
And then I think, leavingVerizon after being an operating
executive for so many years, tosay, hey, I'm going to go do
something totally different.
I'm going to go serve as acorporate board director and I'm
(36:18):
going to get involved with someVC activity Scary moments.
But I think preparation.
One of the things I wouldencourage you know folks like
you, judy, to do is network.
I would encourage you knowfolks like you, judy, to do is
network.
Network is not a bad word.
Sometimes I think when I havethree kids 33, 28, and 27, I'm
like you need to network more.
They're like you know.
(36:41):
I don't know if they view thatas like sucking up or like
asking for something, like it isabout putting good karma out in
the world.
And when you network, youexponentially increase the idea
that you're going to connectwith someone, that you can help
or that they can help you.
So it's not a one way, it's nottransactional.
So put yourself out there, seekto meet folks.
You never know who or why orhow someone will come to meet
(37:05):
you.
I think again, always in thoseopportunities, ask somebody what
you can do for them.
Also, can I help you in any way, so that it's not just I'm
trying to make withdrawals.
You have to make deposits inthis thing called networking,
but it is not a bad word.
You shouldn't feel bad aboutdoing it.
It's a good part of life.
(37:26):
It's like meeting people,trying to understand,
understanding their story andseeing how we can help each
other.
Judy S (37:33):
Yeah, I completely understand how your kids feel,
because that's all the adviceI've been getting lately.
It's to network, network,network and I'm like I'm trying
my best here to network witheverybody.
I really appreciate that advice.
I'm definitely going to try mybest.
Thank you so much.
Tony W (37:47):
Hey, Judy, I got one more.
This one's totally free, I'mnot going to even charge you for
this one.
Hey, do some scary stuff now inyour career, take some chances,
you know, kind of on thetrapeze, leap for the bar
without the safety net a littlebit.
And why do I say that?
I find that once you, as youget older and you end up with a
(38:08):
mortgage and kids and a spouseand like, your tolerance for
risk goes dramatically down.
It's a great time now to go dosome things that are different
and exciting, and you'll figureit out as you go along.
But now's the time to take morerisks because you can start
yourself.
You can keep reinventingyourself.
At this point it's kind of hardfor Rich or Tony Wells to
(38:29):
reinvent themselves.
But, judy, you can do it 10times in the next couple of
years.
Judy S (38:33):
I think that also makes it so much scarier because I
know I have so many options andI can do so much with not having
as much risk.
So I feel like it's so positive, but also sometimes I'm like
this is what makes it scary tome.
I want to know that I'm takingall the chances I have and not
regret it in the future.
Paula G (38:49):
Yeah, whatever choice you make is going to be the
right one for you.
So as soon as you make a choice, just be confident in it.
Judy S (38:55):
Well, thank, you so much for all the advice.
I really appreciate it.
Rich H (38:58):
Well, I can speak for Judy, having had her in class,
that she is good at networkingand figuring things out.
So the good thing with her shehas options that she's
considering.
So, Tony, I'm going to pivot tothe rapid fire round and I'm
going to get it started with oneof my favorite questions, one
that I don't think I can answeror answer consistently, but
let's put you on the hot seat.
(39:19):
What is your walk on song?
Tony W (39:21):
It's called "We Ready by Archie Eversol.
And you know what's so funnyabout this, rich yeah, you're
like that didn't't roll off your.
You're like, oh yeah, I knowthat song, we Ready by Archie
Eversol.
I was actually the other dayreading the Marine Times and
there was a story about, I think, a deployed MEU Marine
Expedition Unit and theymentioned that they were playing
(39:43):
this song on the flight deckbefore they took off to kind of
do some training operation.
And I was like, okay, that's agood go to battle song right
there, like that, you shouldplay it at some point during
this podcast.
So people cause it probablywon't roll off the tongue for
everybody, but it's, it's a goodgo to battle song.
Rich H (40:01):
So We Ready?
I'm adding it to mine.
Paula G (40:10):
Sorry, It was my turn, but I was googling the song and
listening to it, so it was yes,we will have to insert the song
in that awkward silence becausethat was there, you go, put it
in the silence.
So, uh, next rapid fire.
What would be your last meal ifyou could choose?
Tony W (40:23):
Probably pizza, pepperoni, sausage and mushroom
pizza.
That is.
That's my comfort food.
Like I have that and I'm goodto go.
Paula G (40:31):
Okay, what style then?
Tony W (40:33):
That's a good question.
Probably just traditional, justa regular.
You know, not thin, not NewYork, not deep dish, not Detroit
, like you know all thesedifferent pizza styles, but it's
just regular, nice, good crust.
Rich H (40:47):
All right, so I'm going to close it out.
Do you still know how manypush-ups you can do?
Tony W (40:51):
You know, that's funny, Rich.
The other day I was doing aworkout and I got to 20, and I
was hurting, so I'm going to go.
You know, my life depended onit.
I think I could probably do 30,but that's about it.
Rich H (41:03):
Well, that's about 29 more than I can do, you know.
Tony W (41:06):
So at this age you lose so much muscle mass.
That's what I'm blaming you onmy age.
Rich H (41:10):
You're keeping it All right.
So I'm going to the lastquestion.
You can transport yourselfanywhere in the world for 24
hours, instantly there,instantly back, so you don't
have to worry about how longit's going to take you to get
there and come back.
Where would you go?
Tony W (41:24):
Wow, that's a tough one.
I'd probably go to MountEverest.
Just in terms of a grand place,that makes you realize how
small you are in the world, likehow big this thing, planet
Earth, is.
And if you go to the top ofMount Everest I would assume
you'd be reminded of that prettydarn quickly.
And it's funny.
(41:45):
I had a Naval Academy classmatethat was actually doing that
and he's been sending picturesback.
So it's yeah, I'd probably doMount Everest.
Rich H (41:52):
Now I will tell you as many times as we've asked that
question, most people willdefault to someplace they've
been.
It's very seldom that someonegoes someplace they haven't been
and I think you pun intended,have kind of hit the mountaintop
as to where you would go.
Hey, tony, this was an absolutepleasure from beginning to end.
(42:14):
A set of lessons learned.
I greatly appreciate it and I'mactually hoping you come back
and maybe co-host a couple ofthese with us.
What do you say?
Tony W (42:23):
Yeah, Rich, I'd love to do that.
I appreciate that that's anhonor to be asked to do that,
but I definitely enjoyopportunities to kind of convey
and I think at this point, likeI said in my career the ability
to give back and help others,and if there's just one little
nugget in here that helpssomebody along the way, it's
worthwhile.
So thanks for the opportunityto talk to your audience and,
(42:45):
Paula and Judy, it's been great.
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