September 12, 2024 • 47 mins
Can European retailers teach their American counterparts a thing or two about customer service? Join us as we uncover insights from Ghalia Boustani, PhD, a leading retail expert based in Paris, who has a wealth of knowledge about the future of retail. From her early fascination with the industry to becoming a respected author and consultant, Ghalia's journey is nothing short of inspiring. In this episode, she shares her pivotal moments and critical questions that fueled her rise in the retail world.
Navigating the balance between human touch and technology, Ghalia discusses the common pitfalls that retailers face when they over-rely on tech solutions. She illustrates with real-life examples how poor integration can lead to negative customer experiences, such as failed QR code promotions. We also explore the differences between American and European retail practices, highlighting the significance of adapting strategies to local markets and maintaining basic customer service. Ghalia emphasizes the growing trend in Europe towards sustainable consumption and secondhand markets, setting a benchmark for future retail landscapes.
As we delve into the new metrics shaping retail success, Ghalia sheds light on the limitations of traditional KPIs and the necessity of adopting a holistic approach. From the challenges of measuring omni-channel strategies to integrating physical and digital experiences, this episode is packed with valuable insights for anyone in the retail industry. For newcomers, Ghalia offers sage advice on the importance of hands-on experience, teamwork, and keeping a human-centric approach amidst the technological tide. Don't miss this thought-provoking conversation that promises to redefine your understanding of retail.
Ghalia's Bio:
Ghalia Boustani is a multifaceted professional with a diverse skill set encompassing retail consultancy, curation of insights, speaking, authorship, and podcast hosting. Her career in retail gained momentum within the dynamic landscape of the fashion industry, a journey she embarked upon in 2005. Over the years, Ghalia has forged close collaborations with various fashion brands, operating at both retail and management echelons.
Her expertise is centered around ephemeral retail formats, the creation of captivating physical store atmospheres, and a deep understanding of consumer behaviors within omnichannel contexts. At the strategic level, Ghalia excels in guiding brands through transformative processes, contributing to the evolution of their development strategies. On an operational level, she actively engages in formulating procedures, crafting comprehensive training manuals, and conducting impactful team member training sessions.
Ghalia holds a Ph.D. from the prestigious “École Supérieure des Affaires” in Lebanon, a master’s degree from the “London College of Fashion” in London, and a Bachelor of Arts (hons) from the esteemed “Notre Dame University”, along with a diploma from the “École Supérieure des Arts et Techniques de la Mode”. Her academic pursuits manifest in rich research and publications, covering topics ranging from traditional and ephemeral retail to fashion management and customer experiences. Her influence extends globally, as she brings her wealth of knowledge to various educational institutions and business schools in cities such as Beirut, Istanbul, London, and Paris. Since 2011, she has been actively involved in teaching marketing and retail, participating in over 25 conferences and webinars. Through these platforms, Ghalia consistently shares her insights and contributes to the discourse shaping the future of retail.
Connect at:
https://linktr.ee/gboustani
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paula (00:00):
Welcome back to Retail Relate.
Today, we're joined by GhaliaBoustani, PhD, a RETHINK top
retail expert, a lecturer,consultant, speaker and author
based in Paris, France.
Ghalia brings a wealth ofknowledge from her extensive
experience in retail consultancy, consumer insights and
strategic brand transformation.
In this episode, galia willshare her thoughts on the future
(00:21):
of retail in the global context, the challenges that retailers
face in balancing the human andtechnology aspects of the
industry, and offer invaluableadvice on navigating the
complexities of omni-channelstrategies and consumer behavior
.
Plus, she'll delve into thehuman-centric side of retail and
what it means to truly connectwith your customer in an
increasingly digital world.
Stay tuned for an enlighteningdiscussion.
(00:42):
All right, now let's welcome myretail BFFs, Gautham and Rich.
What do you guys think?
Rich (00:48):
I'm excited for this one, and I don't know, Gautham, if
you've met Ghalia before.
I've been having a conversationwith her on LinkedIn and have
been following her stories.
Gautham (00:59):
Yeah, so we have spoken about doing some research a
long time ago, so it's kind offull circle coming back on a
podcast, because we both havethe passion for retail and
academics.
So we're trying to think abouta way to combine our interest
into a paper, which we never gotto do it.
But I look forward to thisconversation.
Rich (01:18):
So, Gautham, you never know, this could result in a
paper.
Know this could result in apaper.
I'm looking forward to herglobal perspective and
understanding her point of viewfrom what she's seeing on the
other side of the world.
Paula (01:31):
Gautham, Rich.
I'm going to be on mute on thisone, but I'm going to be
actively listening, so you guystake it away.
Rich (01:38):
We are excited to welcome Ghalia Bustani to the program
today.
Ghalia is a multifacetedprofessional with an extensive
background in retail consultancy, consumer insights and
strategic brand transformation.
Her journey in the fashionindustry began in 2005, and
since then she has collaboratedclosely with numerous fashion
brands at both retail andmanagement levels.
(01:59):
Ghalia's expertise spansephemeral retail formats, the
creation of captivating physicalstore atmospheres and
understanding consumer behaviorswithin omni-channel contact.
Holding a PhD from theprestigious École Supérieure des
Affaires.
Ghalia (02:18):
Otherwise you can say is that business school?
Rich (02:21):
No, let me try it.
Ghalia (02:22):
All right.
Rich (02:22):
Holding a PhD from the prestigious École Supérieure des
Affaires in Lebanon, a master'sdegree from the London College
of Fashion and multiple otheracademic credentials, galia is
not only a seasoned practitioner, but also a dedicated educator.
She has shared her knowledgeglobally in cities like Beirut,
istanbul, london and Paris,teaching marketing and retail.
(02:43):
Ghalia's insights have beenfeatured at over 25 conferences
and webinars, including majorevents like Paris Retail Week
and the HOP Summit.
Ghalia, welcome to RetailRelates.
We are thrilled to have youwith us today.
Ghalia (02:54):
Thank you so much.
I'm very happy to be with youall and happy to meet you,
because it's always nice to seeand put a face on a name that we
know.
So I'm really happy to be here.
Rich (03:06):
So, Ghalia, you have an impressive resume.
We barely touched on it in theintro.
What we want to do with thenext couple of questions is get
to know a little bit more aboutyou.
We would love to take a littlebit of a different approach.
Can you give us three pivotpoints career, life combination
that have happened, that havebrought you to where you are
(03:26):
today?
Ghalia (03:27):
Yes, and this is a beautiful way to start this
conversation, because manythings that happen to us in life
do forge our professional andpersonal experiences, and I am
one of these people.
Maybe we can start going backto my 17th or 18th birthday.
At a young age, there was thisneed to discover and learn about
(03:52):
the science of an industry thatfascinated me, and I wanted to
understand the what and how ofretail.
And, coming from the MiddleEast and having had the chance
to travel to different countriesat a young age, I have
discovered different retailenvironments and different
consumption patterns, and I waseager to go, learn and decipher
(04:16):
all of these things that I haveseen.
So this was my first pivotalpoint.
Then there was the need to gobeyond the mere task that I was
doing at work.
The first years at work havebeen a great experience.
I learned a lot, whether on thepersonal or professional levels
, but at a certain point Istarted raising more questions,
(04:38):
such as why this and not that,why do it like this and not like
that, and it irritated mymanagers and put me in a
difficult position where I mighthave caused some discomfort at
their end.
This little individual, as theysaw me, who was very sharp and
asked a lot of questions, mighthave become a little bit of a
(05:01):
threat.
So at this point I startedfeeling that in retail we need
to belong to the right flock andI learned to be very pragmatic
and to take decisions and stickto them.
So this was another importantinstance in my retail career.
And the third most importantturning point because life and
(05:23):
career have always gone hand inhand with me is going beyond
what things are today.
I wanted to earn the title ofbecoming an expert, so I believe
that advancing with therelevant studies will allow me
to deepen my knowledge and thatthe day-to-day and on the field
would help me give more meaningand more sense to how theory
(05:45):
translates into practice on onehand, and, on the other hand,
how practice helps in feeding afuture theory.
So I think these were the threemain points that I can
highlight and that make muchsense in my life.
Rich (06:00):
So you mentioned your discovery and appreciation for
retail at a very early age.
Is this the direction that youhad intended your career to go
in?
Did you have another path inmind?
Ghalia (06:10):
No, I think things were very clear since the beginning,
and this is a blessing, I think,because today, if I compare my
life and career path and myvision with the young students
that I meet, things might befluke in their heads, whilst
things were very clear in mine.
I remember the day I went intomy academic advisor's office to
(06:33):
choose my courses for theupcoming semester and I told him
that I have chosen this majorbecause it would set the basis
for knowledge that I need tobuild.
I was doing a Bachelor of Artsin Advertising and Marketing at
this point, so this was 20 yearsago and I insisted that my
courses were taken on NWFMondays, mondays and Fridays.
(06:54):
So why, he asks?
You are still a sophomore.
You are being very demanding,Ghalia.
He says I explained that I hadenrolled in another school to
learn fashion design and patternmaking.
So he was very intrigued and heasks why this choice?
So I told him that I want to beone of the few people who will
(07:15):
come to be a reference in thefashion retail industry.
Therefore, I want to learnabout the business, about
marketing, about advertising,but I need to also learn about
the specifics of the industry.
Excited as he can be.
He tore away a yellow sheet ofpaper from his block note and
together we drew the vision andthe progress of my career, like
(07:35):
where am I today and how I willbe growing in the upcoming years
.
And it took me 15 years to getclose to that point and I think
I want to structure a little bitdifferently.
Rich (08:08):
Do you have a failure that you've learned from, or do you
have a setback that you hit,that you had to work around?
Or was there a point in timeover your journey where you
questioned the path and said youknow what?
I want to reset and go in adifferent direction?
Ghalia (08:23):
Yeah, this is a great question, Rich, and sometimes,
when we are alone, I think thisis the one thing that we take a
lot of time into rethinking andreflecting on, and I can say
that everyday teaches me alesson, but I have also learned
how to be taught these everydaylessons.
(08:45):
There are some important onesand there are less important
ones.
I can say maybe I can recallthree, the most impacting
lessons that I've learned.
First of all, the one relatedto people.
People around us don't comefrom the same backgrounds and
don't share the same values aswe are.
(09:05):
We must understand where theycome from, to understand their
behaviors, and this meant that Ihad to know myself very well
and I had to try to know othersas much as possible, and this
emotional intelligence helped mein navigating many situations
with a lot of ease and with lessconflict.
(09:27):
So this was something that wasreally difficult at the
beginning to learn and tounderstand and to navigate, but
then, after some time, it becamea strength.
Second, I think that at acertain point, I have come to
the realization that I am atrustworthy person and I have
the tendency to trust people andtreat them the way I wanted to
(09:51):
be treated.
However, those whom I havetrusted at the beginning of my
career were the people whobackstabbed me, if I want to use
that term.
So, lesson learned I learned totake time into earning and
giving trust, and I stillbelieve that, with the right
people, trust is the beginningof a beautiful and collegial and
professional relationship.
(10:12):
So I didn't want to leave thatvalue.
I just learned how to use it ina more efficient way.
And finally, I think thehardest point that I had to
really learn and it took a lotof time for me to absorb and
integrate is saying no.
(10:33):
It's knowing when to stop andknowing when to withdraw and
cutting the bleed.
Those are the terms that keeprunning into my mind every time
I go to the workplace.
And the lesson that I learnedthe hard way our emotions should
not get the best of us, even ifwe have put the effort all in
shed, tears, spend sleeplessnights.
(10:54):
We need to weigh the situationbased on the desired result and
see that things are not rightOkay.
And then, if it's far from theobjective, we must be very
pragmatic and take a decision.
This is not the right thing forme.
I've tried everything I can,but now I need to stop and I
need to move on and tounderstand that if this was a
(11:14):
negative thing, it should not beseen as a failure rather than a
learning curve or a lesson, andso I think these are the most
important things that I learnedthe hard way, because they were
not at all part of mypersonality, but that helped me
navigate through the career andunderstand how I should be
(11:36):
treating people and how I wouldlike to be treated in the retail
industry.
Gautham (11:40):
Yeah, what was really nice to share about your lessons
learned and part of our podcastis about, you know, advice to
students.
So these are great advice tostudents.
So before we get into the meatof our podcast, which is the
lesson, if you will just want toask a follow up question, you
talked about, you know, buildingtrust.
Being backstabbed was thespecific word, if I remember
(12:02):
correctly, and I think all of uson the call and audience
probably have had someexperiences.
How do you deal with thosedifficult circumstances?
What is your approach tohandling such situations?
Any advice?
Ghalia (12:16):
Well, there's never a good or a bad advice, because
any situation should be handledwith regards to the situation
itself Right, should be handledwith regards to the situation
itself right.
But I believe that sometimes wehave to learn how to be
tolerant and how to manage ouremotions, because every human
being has the tendency to reactin the way that is related to
(12:38):
his or her comfort zone and thenjust show the natural face.
Actually, our natural facewould show directly with these
types of situations.
So we have to learn how to readpeople, how to understand where
they came from and why theyreacted this way.
This is my philosophy at theend of the day, and sometimes
(12:59):
I'm criticized.
They tell me Galia, you arebeing too nice, galia, you are
very tolerant, so on and soforth.
But this has been done by choice.
Being nice is being able andcapable to elevate yourself to
many situations that areirritating and frustrating, and
trying to understand theenvironment and the people in it
, and finding the best words andways possible to be able to
(13:23):
react correct.
But we also have to be veryrational and pragmatic, and I
use these two words.
Sometimes we come to a dead end, sometimes there are people who
are impossible to deal with.
At least we don't have thechemistry, or the current
doesn't go well.
It's very normal and natural,and this is where you also have
to be the bigger person tosaying, ok, this is how you want
(13:45):
to do it, this is how it willbe done, but I will not be on
board or I can contribute withthis or that.
So we have to have the maturityto be able to know what I am,
what I stand for, what I can doand what type of contribution I
will be doing in that situation,to be able to navigate with
certainty most of the time,let's say not all of the time.
Gautham (14:09):
I love that answer.
There's a lesson there foreveryone.
Let's now move to the lessonsection of our podcast, where we
ask you about the substantivearea of your expertise and try
to get your perspectives.
You have traveled the world,you know, coming from the Middle
East, now in Europe and travelto the US and so forth.
What is it that you see that iscommon amongst all retail,
(14:33):
global retail, and what areinstances of uniqueness?
Ghalia (14:37):
Yeah, this is really interesting and I have been
concentrating a lot of time intothinking and writing about that
, like externalizing my thoughts, because I have been raised in
that generation who has beenvery familiarized with
consumption and overconsumptionand for the past 20 or 30 years
(14:58):
our consumption patterns havebeen formatted in a way to say
that if we want to go to asupermarket, it should be that
way.
If we want to go buy clothesand garments, it should be that
way.
If we want to do this in arestaurant, it should be that
way.
So we have come to a certainunderstanding of codes through
practices that have been givento us, because the market
(15:20):
stabilized around a certainretail pattern and environment
and through globalization, ithas tried to repeat those
patterns in different parts ofthe world.
So, yes, it's true that thescope of work that I did
concentrated mainly on theMiddle Eastern and European
markets, and it was only untilrecently that I discovered the
North American markets Canada,the French part and the US.
(15:44):
The North American markets,canada, the French part and the
US.
During my short visit I had toopen my eyes because things were
shockingly different thesenotions between smaller and
bigger, the notions of customerservice, the notions of
consumption moderatedconsumption, overconsumption,
and the notion of being focusedand customer focused were very
(16:05):
different.
And to summarize this in a fewwords, I think that what caught
my attention is that whatAmerican textbooks promoted and
taught in marketing and retaildoes not translate into the
actual market's reality.
Something went wrong in thepast years and many retail
related notions have beenforgotten or put away.
(16:27):
How many times and I rememberbecause I did an American
curriculum at university when Iwas doing my bachelor's how many
times I've read Philip Kotlerabout marketing and integrating
that notion of service, so onand so forth.
And when I went to the UnitedStates I was shocked.
I did not see any of that and Isaid, ok, what went wrong there
(16:50):
?
What is happening to the market?
Why do these things change?
And then I started goingshopping and I saw that there is
this extra effort put on toliquidating, merchandise,
selling, selling, selling, whichis very American in terms of
consumption, and what we seetoday in Europe is that we
should recycle, we should reselland things are very different,
(17:13):
even though we're living in thesame world, same universe, from
consumption patterns.
So it's interesting to see thattoday.
This notion of localization isvery interesting and it gets you
back to the point that cultureis really interesting in retail
and we need to understand itbecause our local consumption
(17:34):
patterns are very interestingand very important and they
influence a lot the shape ofretail.
I know that I started answeringthis question by saying we have
been formatted for the past 20years into understanding that
consumption had codes and thesecodes were repeated everywhere.
But today retailers came tothat realization that, no, even
(17:56):
though we have or we might adoptprocesses that are similar,
it's very important to adaptthem to the local market and to
the local culture and localconsumption patterns, and this
might reshape the concept andthe way consumers are going to
consume.
So yeah, there are manydifferences today and I think we
(18:18):
are starting to re-celebratethese differences in retail, and
this is a beautiful thingcelebrate these differences in
retail, and this is a beautifulthing.
Gautham (18:26):
We shared the same observations.
There is so much that is saidin our textbooks, but when it
comes to actually applications,it falls away.
What do you think is core toretail?
What should retailers focus ontoday, when customer preferences
are changing?
The need for technologyadoption, basic features, and
(18:47):
then the add-ons, and then thecompletion to what the brand and
the service is and what it aimsto serve, what types of
(19:26):
customers and how, etc.
Ghalia (19:28):
These basics would include the product, the people,
the service, the retailenvironment all the cliché,
actually, that we have beenworking on for forever now.
But then, with the integrationof technology, with the
advancements, retailers werevery excited to say like, yeah,
(19:48):
I want to integrate thistechnology, I want to add on
this surface, I want to do thisand that.
And they started focusing onthese add-ons as being silos,
without integrating themholistically into the system,
and this, if I might use theword, become astray from the
nature of the brand.
They forgot that an add-onshould complete the initial
(20:10):
model, so they forgot aboutexcellence, they forgot about
customer service, they forgotabout how we add value through
delivering our day-to-dayexperiences.
The little things have driftedaway and the people working for
the brand also started losingthat focus.
Like are we doing a day-to-dayjob or are we building a career
(20:35):
or are we part of a brand?
These are different elementsthat we need to address today
and that retailers haveforgotten, and it's a shame.
Today I'm observing a lot ofcustomer services because I'm
shocked.
I cannot believe today going toa restaurant and paying 50, 60
or 100 euros and seeing thewaiter come and throw like a
(20:58):
cutlery in front of me.
I mean, I cannot accept it.
In fast food services they aremore attentive and more
attending.
What is happening today?
I think that today we were veryexcited into saying that we
have lots of things going onwith the brand.
We have the latest technologies, but we don't have the people
(21:20):
knowing how to operate thetechnology and how it links to
all other services that we havein or within our brand, and
that's a shame.
So if we want to be omnichannel, if we want to have the unified
commerce, if we want to use thebest new things that we can add
on to the world, this does notmean that everything essential
and basic and that forms thebasic components of the brand
(21:46):
cannot be left aside and cannotbe invested in, and this is, I
think, the major drawback intoday's retail management
environment.
Rich (21:55):
Not that we go into this with a script, but obviously we
have a set of questions and thishas turned into a very much a
conversation.
And to Paula's point of seeingthe reaction from Gotham and I,
you know he's an academic with acuriosity in retail.
I'm a retail executive with acuriosity for how marketing and
(22:17):
retail are taught, and both ofus have discussed at length
where that gap is and I thinkyou're identifying a lot of it.
I think the first question I'mgoing to ask is you mentioned
technology.
Do you find that retailers areprioritizing adding on new
technology to truly solveproblems, or are they looking to
(22:39):
add technology simply to say Ijust added this and look over,
you come into our store andthere are promotions and you go
(23:05):
into the store, you pick up thatpromotion and he tells you scan
the QR code, download the appand we will give you a 10%
discount, since it's your firstpurchase.
Ghalia (23:16):
And, excited as you might be, you scan that QR code,
you try to open the site and itdoesn't open because you're
underground, there is no 3G, no5G and no Wi-Fi.
And how would you like me toopen and fill in and do the
application when there is noWi-Fi?
Haven't you considered this,dear retailer?
This is the most basic thingand the most frustrating things
(23:40):
that a customer can endure.
Okay, we tell you that we haveself-checkout.
Do it and wave if you have aproblem.
And then you go intoself-checkout and you scan the
items but the scanner is notworking.
And then you call someoneplease can you help?
No, ma'am, we don't have ittill today open, so you have to
(24:02):
do the, turn back again and findanother.
And I mean, like here, you wantto just end your life because
you have been waiting for Godknows.
These are the simple things andsometimes I talk about the
simplest and I say and I quotesimplest details because today,
downloading an app, scanning aQR code, doing self-checkouts
(24:24):
are becoming so basic in retail.
But if retailers cannot payattention to these little
details, if they think that theyare adding value to our
customer journey in-store andonline, they're so wrong,
Because when we are frustrated,it is so negative that we don't
want to see the retailer againand we don't want to come again
(24:46):
to do business with them.
So they have lost more thanthey have gained and you ask
yourself was it worth itinvesting such money and losing
clients instead of getting moreclients on boards?
These are the simple things.
So I believe that today, yeah,there are lots of retailers who
(25:07):
have been excited and we quoteexcited to integrate all of
these technologies, but theyhave failed to holistically
integrate them in the businessmodel and to train employees to
understand how to manipulatethose technologies in order to
add value to the customerjourney that they were hoping
that they would turn into a morepositive one.
Rich (25:29):
You mentioned earlier consumption.
If you look at the non-USmarket and you look at
consumerism and you look atwhere we have built so much on
consumerism, Do you see shiftswithin US retail that are
positive in nature and do youthink they're sustainable?
Ghalia (25:48):
Today.
I think I'm not in a perfectposition to be able to answer
that question concerning the USbecause I haven't spent the
necessary time observing it onthe floor or in situ as I might,
and saying that I might nothave all the answers today, but
I think that the US still liketo promote consumption and still
(26:11):
likes to have a certain type ofreaction from its consumers
based on them coming and payingand doing more business with
them.
But I don't think thatAmericans or the American market
is ready into educating itsconsumers on a different
consumption pattern.
They are not there yet.
(26:32):
Maybe it should take some timeto rethink retail processes in
the US and by finding othertypes of alternatives in which
customers could contribute tothe business positively, but not
necessarily through consumingor buying products.
Would this entail more types ofbusiness integrating services
(26:57):
such as conciergerie, likereparation, bringing in products
, consigning products, investingmore in secondhand markets,
vintage, etc.
Maybe we have seen this flow ona bigger scale in Europe and I
think the US is taking more timeto implement it because the
(27:18):
culture is very much built onconsumption and overconsumption
of the physical product, likethe ownership of the product,
and the Americas like a lot theterm of experience.
However, experiences come in asa secondary add on to the
transactional experience that wewant to put fore and foremost.
(27:39):
This is still my point of viewtoday, and I think I need to
take more time intocorroborating it in the future.
Rich (27:48):
Do you say and I'll ask it from your perspective in the
retailers that you see, do youthink that the consumer is
driving retailer change or thatthe retailers are driving
consumer change?
When you talk about things likecircular commerce and
experience and consumption?
Ghalia (28:05):
I think in Europe that the consumer is starting to play
an important role into changingthe perspective of the retailer
and pushing retailers tointegrate different types of
services to meet thoseconsumers' needs.
But I can tell you thateducation is starting at home
and at school, where there isthis discourse common discourse
(28:26):
and you hear it a lot with theyoungsters about the new
patterns of consumption, theimportance of ownership and
non-ownership, ephemeralownership, etc.
This is becoming very culturaland is promoted a lot at a young
age.
Now, is the US doing the samething with people from school,
(28:50):
at school, educating them ontoconsuming differently and better
?
Or are they just mentioning itfrom time to time?
Because five years from now,the generation that will be
becoming more active andconsumer that will be consuming
actively on the market is theone who is going to be
challenging retailers becausethey are going to be more
(29:11):
demanding or demanding thatthings would be done differently
.
But I think today the markethas not invested in that type of
education yet.
The market has not invested inthat type of education yet.
So the retailer is the onecontrolling what its customers
are going to be doing.
And this is on the US part, andin Europe the dynamic is
(29:32):
becoming a little bit morechallenging because the consumer
and his mindset or her mindset,if you might say is becoming
more challenging to retailers.
They have become very difficultto please in.
Gautham (29:45):
Europe.
Ghalia, let me ask you afollow-up question.
What about metrics ofperformance that companies have?
Won't that lead tooverconsumption as well?
Do you see different companiesin the Middle East and Europe?
Is performance measureddifferently, in contrast to more
public-facing companies here,where it's driven by growth
(30:07):
metrics, profit cost measures?
Ghalia (30:10):
Are we all measuring things in the same way?
Lately there have been somecompanies where managers have
been educated differently, comewith a different type of vision,
where managers have not beenworking in the same retail let's
say, sector or company for thepast 10 or 15 years, people who
have this disruptive mindset,and maybe they have started
(30:34):
calculating things differently.
When we started looking moreinto these questions of unified
commerce in that omni-channelcontext, we said that it would
be very difficult for us toisolate every single channel
that we have and calculate itsKPIs or return on investment.
It might be very reductionistand then we might start
(30:56):
calculating a holistic equation,looking more on return of
experiences and saying, like,how things are evolving here, if
I'm doing a certain action inchannel number one, what is the
effect on channel number two,and so on and so forth.
This would calm down managementa little bit and telling them
(31:16):
okay, I know that we needresults, I know that we need to,
I know that we need to live, Iknow that we need to make money.
But, guys, we are adding on somany things, so many investments
that are heavy, and the resultswould be coming differently and
elsewhere, especially with thecase of those brands who have
highly invested in pop-up storesand events.
(31:37):
I mean, how the hell can youisolate a return on investment
on an event that took one day ortwo and that costed that much
money?
But the returns will be seenelsewhere, on a different
channel, and it's impossible forus to go and isolate and
calculate, to have the maturityinside the company, with our
(32:00):
managers, to retrain our mindsetand think that KPIs and ROIs
are very important.
But we need to find a newformula, a new set of metrics
that will help us understand howthe business model runs
holistically, every integrationthat we have done and every
investment as an action, and howthe reaction will be later on
(32:21):
in terms of visibility, in termsof integration, in terms of
newcomers to the brand and interms of purchase.
This is a different mindset.
I might not have the answertoday because we don't have so
many cases of companies doingthat today, but it's a nice way
to just start educatingourselves in the company within
(32:43):
that new concept that isbecoming our next normal.
Rich (32:46):
With everything that we've talked about.
Is there a retailer or a brandthat you've encountered anywhere
worldwide that does a good jobthat you would use as an example
in how they connect with theircustomers and how they connect
with their customers?
Ghalia (33:00):
I don't think that I have a straight answer to that.
Yes, and I think we're notthere yet.
I think that there are manybrands that try to be, or trying
to become, more holistic interms of their model,
integrating as much physical anddigital.
I don't have one brand in mindthat has perfectly done that,
(33:22):
because it takes a lot of timeto understand what we need, how
we need to integrate it beforebecoming perfect and whole as
much as we expected to betheoretically.
Rich (33:35):
You've spoken about advice you've received throughout your
career and had mentioned acouple of people who I like the
expression kind of tore up theyellow tablet sheet.
If you were and I will tell youI love the passion that you
have for the retail industry Ifyou had the chance to speak to
(33:55):
somebody who was just startingoff in their career journey,
what advice would you give them?
Ghalia (34:00):
I would tell them that retail is both mentally and
physically challenging anddemanding.
If you want to start yourcareer in retail, you must be
prepared to delve into thesmallest details, regardless of
your educational level orbackground.
Excelling in retail meanscounting boxes, cleaning shelves
(34:23):
, spending hours in thestockroom, assisting colleagues
with wiping the floor duringrush hours.
This is a hands-on approachthat should be integrated within
your state of mind and it'scrucial for understanding retail
and being able to demystify theprocess later on.
And I would also tell them thatretail is human-centric and
(34:45):
customer-centric.
It means that any person whowill be working in retail
closely with retailers will bespending hours on the shop floor
, on the floor in the market, atthe heart of the action and
online.
So they have to be observing,examining, participating in the
process in order to deepen theirunderstanding and enriching
(35:07):
their perspective.
Most importantly, any person'svalue lies in the strength of
the team and the people who wework with.
So we have to be very open andvery helpful and very proactive,
and we need to ask for helpwhen it's needed.
And we need to maintain ourhonesty with all people and
(35:28):
during all interactions.
And, most importantly, theadvice that I give everyone and
anyone who will be working inretail, is to stay humble and
committed to continuous learning, and when you think you know
everything, then it's time tostart relearning something new,
and this is the only way thatyou will grow and evolve.
Rich (35:50):
One last question before we jump into the rapid fire
round.
What do you think is the mostunderrated skill set?
Ghalia (35:56):
I think communication, the personal interaction, have
become so overlooked.
We are becoming so sociallyunsocial and I think this is a
major point that all retailersand everyone should stop on to
see what's happening and theextent to which this is
affecting us doing business withretailers, and affecting
(36:20):
retailers who are hiring peopleand not being able to meet their
objectives because they don'thave the drive of the people.
So there is a human problem andwe need to rethink that and try
to put a little bit of heartagain into the process of our
businesses and day-to-day lives.
Like we have to really comeback and be more human.
Rich (36:42):
And I think that's great advice in a day and age where
people are either embracing orworried about AI and the
continual reminder that it's atechnology.
It can be a wonderful thing isa wonderful thing, but it's
humans that matter most.
Ghalia (36:58):
Exactly.
Rich (36:59):
All right, so we are going to go into the rapid fire round
.
Three questions First thingthat pops into your head a
chance to have a little bit offun.
You've spoken worldwide.
Do you have a specific walk-onsong or theme song that defines
you?
Ghalia (37:14):
I love listening to music, right, and it becomes so
natural when we're singing itgoing out of the house under the
shower at the office.
But I think that my heartalways belongs to one song
entitled El Cantante, and thelyrics convey the message that
while the performer is beingcelebrated and adored on stage,
(37:36):
they often face loneliness andhardship and unrecognized
struggles behind the scene, andthey highlight how people only
see success but theyunderestimate all the effort and
the pain and sacrifices that gowith it.
It teaches me every time andreminds me that, ok, maybe today
(37:57):
in retail, in my profession, Imight be known, I might be
addressed as the expert, so onand so forth, but when I go off
that stage I might be a nobodyto everybody.
So it reminds us again to bereally humble and know that
(38:18):
there are other things that alsoneed to make us happy, fulfill
us, and we constantly need to bereminded with that.
Rich (38:29):
Second question if you could automate one part of your
life, what would it be?
Ghalia (38:33):
If I could automate the organization.
It would be great, because I'mthat type of person who has to
have everything around her welldone and on time, and all the
time, from cleaning the house tomaking the bed, to preparing my
luggage, to selecting what towear the next day and planning
my itinerary.
(38:54):
Like the simple things have toalways be perfect with me.
So I wish I could automatethose things and invest more
time in other tasks that I don'talways find the time in doing,
because I have lost already alot with these organization
tasks.
Rich (39:11):
I can definitely relate to that.
Absolutely All right.
You can immediately transportyourself to anywhere in the
world for one day.
You can go there instantly.
No long travel plans.
Where would you go in the worldand what would you look forward
to the most?
Ghalia (39:26):
After much thought to this type of question, I think I
realized that I would be veryhappy to be right here right now
, in my father's garden backhome, and I would eagerly
anticipate listening to him,watching him find joy in the
simplest yet the most fulfillingtasks, such as planting and
(39:46):
harvesting, and this detachmentfrom the burdens of the daily
life would put everything intoperspective and would constantly
remind me and us that the focusshould be on the little things
that truly matter and that addvalue to ourselves and to our
lives.
So there are lots of beautifulthings and places that I would
(40:08):
love to see, but I think thatthis is the one place that I
would love to go to right now.
Rich (40:14):
Ghalia, that is such an amazing way to end this episode
and, on behalf of all of us,thank you very, very much for
participating today.
I cannot wait for our audienceto hear this episode.
Ghalia (40:27):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me, andI'm honored to be in contact
with you today and to have hadthis conversation with all of
you.
Thank you so much.
Paula (40:38):
Man.
There were just a ton ofquestions I wanted to ask her.
She's absolutely fascinating.
Gautham (40:43):
I'm curious to get your thoughts, Rich and Gautham,
Well, I'm going to start off bygetting Rich's perspective,
because she talked abouttextbook versus application and
how we things written in thebooks that are in the 80s are
not executed today.
Rich (40:59):
I knew you were going to ask that question and Paula,
being on mute, was messagingthat she was laughing because
both of us seem to be coming outof our skin.
I mean, I think she's right andyou, but the case studies
become dated very quickly and Idon't know that it does a great
(41:28):
job representing what retailreally is and that it does a
disservice to the retailindustry by not really painting
a good picture of how it's run,how it should be run and where
the opportunities are.
What are your thoughts?
Gautham (41:43):
I took it a different way, in the sense that the way I
heard it was what she wastrying to say.
There's certain core aspects toretail that are covered in many
a book which are not executedand not emphasized as much these
days, be it creating value, beit customer service and so forth
.
So I found the disconnect therebetween what is mentioned in
(42:07):
the textbook versus what isbeing applied and the fear of
missing out when it comes tosome of these emerging features
in retail are something that Iwill take back to my students.
Focus on the fundamentals.
I say I've learned this fromAndy.
I think it was poor concrete,important things to do first
(42:28):
before you can build that castle.
Rich (42:30):
Paula, when you were on mute, what were you going to
jump out of your skin and ask?
Paula (42:36):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I'm always curious aboutthe women perspective and women
in leadership and women inretail and women in retail.
Now that I'm getting morefamiliarized with this industry,
really in an in-depth level,she's got this wealth of
knowledge that I just wanted toknow more about.
We're going to have to do around table with her, absolutely
(42:56):
, or have a LinkedIn live.
So listen, for part two ofGhalia's return to Retail
Relates, I will say one and I'llask you both on this one.
It was an area that I probablycould have spent about 30
minutes.
Rich (43:04):
I'll ask you both on this one.
It was an area that I probablycould have spent about 30
minutes on, and that's the ideaof circular commerce and how she
went through.
In Europe, consumers are reallypushing retailers for it, and
how in this country, we'vebecome so promotionally driven
and, yes, the number oneobjective is profit, but so,
(43:25):
profit driven and growth driven,it is challenging to think that
we're going to get to a pointwhere circular commerce, or
e-commerce or whatever you callit, is going to be important.
Have you guys seen it startingto happen more?
What are your thoughts on whatshe was saying?
Gautham (43:41):
I agree 100% with what she said.
Right, I think in some ways,Europe and the rest of the world
might lead in the context ofcircular economy, but what stood
out to me was her push forchanging the minds of the
leaders within retail to thinkin terms of what are the other
(44:03):
ways to create value.
And circular economy, ore-commerce, whatever you want to
call it, is just that is thatlet's create value by taking a
more holistic, longer termperspective that includes not
just the consumer but also theplanet in some ways.
So I enjoyed the conversation.
I also enjoyed the fact that Ikept trying her on metrics,
(44:23):
because I do think that to makethe change, you need to align
with metrics and evaluate peopleon the metrics.
That was the part ofconversation I enjoyed the most.
Rich (44:33):
Yeah, the metrics are important, but I also think and
it ties back to in this caseit's retailers finding a way to
make a profit at it, to driverevenue, but making the world a
better place.
Paula (44:44):
I think that, regardless of what industry you're in
retail, tech, journalism,medicine, education there is
always a way to give back or toreuse, and it's really nice to
see more people talking aboutcircular economy, about
re-commerce, about sustainablefashion, because these are
(45:06):
things that are impacting us nowand that are also going to
continue to impact, especiallyour children.
Rich (45:13):
It was the one criticism that I had in the first course
that I taught was that I didn'tspend enough time on
sustainability, and maybe that'swhat this generation will be
attracted to in retail is if webring the potential positive
impact on society to life more.
So maybe that's a goal.
Gautham (45:32):
I agree that the students love to hear it, but I
think it's very complex to teachin a classroom setting and I
think the more people we bringand more diverse perspectives we
bring in to the challenges toachieving a sustainable future,
the better off the futuregenerations will be and better
of the planet will be.
Paula (45:51):
Thank you so Ghalia, for joining us today and sharing her
fantastic perspective from herglobal retail experience, and a
big thank you to all ourlisteners for tuning in.
At Retail Relates, we strive tobring you a diversity of voices
and insights that represent a360-degree view of retail from
experts across the globe.
We hope you found today'sconversation as relatable and
inspiring as we did on behalf ofmy podcast BFFs Gautham and
(46:14):
Rich.
This is Paula signing off untilnext time.
Welcome back to Retail Relate.
Today, we're joined by GhaliaBoustani, PhD, a RETHINK top
retail expert, a lecturer,consultant, speaker and author
based in Paris, France.
Ghalia brings a wealth ofknowledge from her extensive
experience in retail consultancy, consumer insights and
strategic brand transformation.
In this episode, galia willshare her thoughts on the future
(00:21):
of retail in the global context, the challenges that retailers
face in balancing the human andtechnology aspects of the
industry, and offer invaluableadvice on navigating the
complexities of omni-channelstrategies and consumer behavior
.
Plus, she'll delve into thehuman-centric side of retail and
what it means to truly connectwith your customer in an
increasingly digital world.
Stay tuned for an enlighteningdiscussion.
(00:42):
All right, now let's welcome myretail BFFs, Gautham and Rich.
What do you guys think?
Rich (00:48):
I'm excited for this one, and I don't know, Gautham, if
you've met Ghalia before.
I've been having a conversationwith her on LinkedIn and have
been following her stories.
Gautham (00:59):
Yeah, so we have spoken about doing some research a
long time ago, so it's kind offull circle coming back on a
podcast, because we both havethe passion for retail and
academics.
So we're trying to think abouta way to combine our interest
into a paper, which we never gotto do it.
But I look forward to thisconversation.
Rich (01:18):
So, Gautham, you never know, this could result in a
paper.
Know this could result in apaper.
I'm looking forward to herglobal perspective and
understanding her point of viewfrom what she's seeing on the
other side of the world.
Paula (01:31):
Gautham, Rich.
I'm going to be on mute on thisone, but I'm going to be
actively listening, so you guystake it away.
Rich (01:38):
We are excited to welcome Ghalia Bustani to the program
today.
Ghalia is a multifacetedprofessional with an extensive
background in retail consultancy, consumer insights and
strategic brand transformation.
Her journey in the fashionindustry began in 2005, and
since then she has collaboratedclosely with numerous fashion
brands at both retail andmanagement levels.
(01:59):
Ghalia's expertise spansephemeral retail formats, the
creation of captivating physicalstore atmospheres and
understanding consumer behaviorswithin omni-channel contact.
Holding a PhD from theprestigious École Supérieure des
Affaires.
Ghalia (02:18):
Otherwise you can say is that business school?
Rich (02:21):
No, let me try it.
Ghalia (02:22):
All right.
Rich (02:22):
Holding a PhD from the prestigious École Supérieure des
Affaires in Lebanon, a master'sdegree from the London College
of Fashion and multiple otheracademic credentials, galia is
not only a seasoned practitioner, but also a dedicated educator.
She has shared her knowledgeglobally in cities like Beirut,
istanbul, london and Paris,teaching marketing and retail.
(02:43):
Ghalia's insights have beenfeatured at over 25 conferences
and webinars, including majorevents like Paris Retail Week
and the HOP Summit.
Ghalia, welcome to RetailRelates.
We are thrilled to have youwith us today.
Ghalia (02:54):
Thank you so much.
I'm very happy to be with youall and happy to meet you,
because it's always nice to seeand put a face on a name that we
know.
So I'm really happy to be here.
Rich (03:06):
So, Ghalia, you have an impressive resume.
We barely touched on it in theintro.
What we want to do with thenext couple of questions is get
to know a little bit more aboutyou.
We would love to take a littlebit of a different approach.
Can you give us three pivotpoints career, life combination
that have happened, that havebrought you to where you are
(03:26):
today?
Ghalia (03:27):
Yes, and this is a beautiful way to start this
conversation, because manythings that happen to us in life
do forge our professional andpersonal experiences, and I am
one of these people.
Maybe we can start going backto my 17th or 18th birthday.
At a young age, there was thisneed to discover and learn about
(03:52):
the science of an industry thatfascinated me, and I wanted to
understand the what and how ofretail.
And, coming from the MiddleEast and having had the chance
to travel to different countriesat a young age, I have
discovered different retailenvironments and different
consumption patterns, and I waseager to go, learn and decipher
(04:16):
all of these things that I haveseen.
So this was my first pivotalpoint.
Then there was the need to gobeyond the mere task that I was
doing at work.
The first years at work havebeen a great experience.
I learned a lot, whether on thepersonal or professional levels
, but at a certain point Istarted raising more questions,
(04:38):
such as why this and not that,why do it like this and not like
that, and it irritated mymanagers and put me in a
difficult position where I mighthave caused some discomfort at
their end.
This little individual, as theysaw me, who was very sharp and
asked a lot of questions, mighthave become a little bit of a
(05:01):
threat.
So at this point I startedfeeling that in retail we need
to belong to the right flock andI learned to be very pragmatic
and to take decisions and stickto them.
So this was another importantinstance in my retail career.
And the third most importantturning point because life and
(05:23):
career have always gone hand inhand with me is going beyond
what things are today.
I wanted to earn the title ofbecoming an expert, so I believe
that advancing with therelevant studies will allow me
to deepen my knowledge and thatthe day-to-day and on the field
would help me give more meaningand more sense to how theory
(05:45):
translates into practice on onehand, and, on the other hand,
how practice helps in feeding afuture theory.
So I think these were the threemain points that I can
highlight and that make muchsense in my life.
Rich (06:00):
So you mentioned your discovery and appreciation for
retail at a very early age.
Is this the direction that youhad intended your career to go
in?
Did you have another path inmind?
Ghalia (06:10):
No, I think things were very clear since the beginning,
and this is a blessing, I think,because today, if I compare my
life and career path and myvision with the young students
that I meet, things might befluke in their heads, whilst
things were very clear in mine.
I remember the day I went intomy academic advisor's office to
(06:33):
choose my courses for theupcoming semester and I told him
that I have chosen this majorbecause it would set the basis
for knowledge that I need tobuild.
I was doing a Bachelor of Artsin Advertising and Marketing at
this point, so this was 20 yearsago and I insisted that my
courses were taken on NWFMondays, mondays and Fridays.
(06:54):
So why, he asks?
You are still a sophomore.
You are being very demanding,Ghalia.
He says I explained that I hadenrolled in another school to
learn fashion design and patternmaking.
So he was very intrigued and heasks why this choice?
So I told him that I want to beone of the few people who will
(07:15):
come to be a reference in thefashion retail industry.
Therefore, I want to learnabout the business, about
marketing, about advertising,but I need to also learn about
the specifics of the industry.
Excited as he can be.
He tore away a yellow sheet ofpaper from his block note and
together we drew the vision andthe progress of my career, like
(07:35):
where am I today and how I willbe growing in the upcoming years
.
And it took me 15 years to getclose to that point and I think
I want to structure a little bitdifferently.
Rich (08:08):
Do you have a failure that you've learned from, or do you
have a setback that you hit,that you had to work around?
Or was there a point in timeover your journey where you
questioned the path and said youknow what?
I want to reset and go in adifferent direction?
Ghalia (08:23):
Yeah, this is a great question, Rich, and sometimes,
when we are alone, I think thisis the one thing that we take a
lot of time into rethinking andreflecting on, and I can say
that everyday teaches me alesson, but I have also learned
how to be taught these everydaylessons.
(08:45):
There are some important onesand there are less important
ones.
I can say maybe I can recallthree, the most impacting
lessons that I've learned.
First of all, the one relatedto people.
People around us don't comefrom the same backgrounds and
don't share the same values aswe are.
(09:05):
We must understand where theycome from, to understand their
behaviors, and this meant that Ihad to know myself very well
and I had to try to know othersas much as possible, and this
emotional intelligence helped mein navigating many situations
with a lot of ease and with lessconflict.
(09:27):
So this was something that wasreally difficult at the
beginning to learn and tounderstand and to navigate, but
then, after some time, it becamea strength.
Second, I think that at acertain point, I have come to
the realization that I am atrustworthy person and I have
the tendency to trust people andtreat them the way I wanted to
(09:51):
be treated.
However, those whom I havetrusted at the beginning of my
career were the people whobackstabbed me, if I want to use
that term.
So, lesson learned I learned totake time into earning and
giving trust, and I stillbelieve that, with the right
people, trust is the beginningof a beautiful and collegial and
professional relationship.
(10:12):
So I didn't want to leave thatvalue.
I just learned how to use it ina more efficient way.
And finally, I think thehardest point that I had to
really learn and it took a lotof time for me to absorb and
integrate is saying no.
(10:33):
It's knowing when to stop andknowing when to withdraw and
cutting the bleed.
Those are the terms that keeprunning into my mind every time
I go to the workplace.
And the lesson that I learnedthe hard way our emotions should
not get the best of us, even ifwe have put the effort all in
shed, tears, spend sleeplessnights.
(10:54):
We need to weigh the situationbased on the desired result and
see that things are not rightOkay.
And then, if it's far from theobjective, we must be very
pragmatic and take a decision.
This is not the right thing forme.
I've tried everything I can,but now I need to stop and I
need to move on and tounderstand that if this was a
(11:14):
negative thing, it should not beseen as a failure rather than a
learning curve or a lesson, andso I think these are the most
important things that I learnedthe hard way, because they were
not at all part of mypersonality, but that helped me
navigate through the career andunderstand how I should be
(11:36):
treating people and how I wouldlike to be treated in the retail
industry.
Gautham (11:40):
Yeah, what was really nice to share about your lessons
learned and part of our podcastis about, you know, advice to
students.
So these are great advice tostudents.
So before we get into the meatof our podcast, which is the
lesson, if you will just want toask a follow up question, you
talked about, you know, buildingtrust.
Being backstabbed was thespecific word, if I remember
(12:02):
correctly, and I think all of uson the call and audience
probably have had someexperiences.
How do you deal with thosedifficult circumstances?
What is your approach tohandling such situations?
Any advice?
Ghalia (12:16):
Well, there's never a good or a bad advice, because
any situation should be handledwith regards to the situation
itself Right, should be handledwith regards to the situation
itself right.
But I believe that sometimes wehave to learn how to be
tolerant and how to manage ouremotions, because every human
being has the tendency to reactin the way that is related to
(12:38):
his or her comfort zone and thenjust show the natural face.
Actually, our natural facewould show directly with these
types of situations.
So we have to learn how to readpeople, how to understand where
they came from and why theyreacted this way.
This is my philosophy at theend of the day, and sometimes
(12:59):
I'm criticized.
They tell me Galia, you arebeing too nice, galia, you are
very tolerant, so on and soforth.
But this has been done by choice.
Being nice is being able andcapable to elevate yourself to
many situations that areirritating and frustrating, and
trying to understand theenvironment and the people in it
, and finding the best words andways possible to be able to
(13:23):
react correct.
But we also have to be veryrational and pragmatic, and I
use these two words.
Sometimes we come to a dead end, sometimes there are people who
are impossible to deal with.
At least we don't have thechemistry, or the current
doesn't go well.
It's very normal and natural,and this is where you also have
to be the bigger person tosaying, ok, this is how you want
(13:45):
to do it, this is how it willbe done, but I will not be on
board or I can contribute withthis or that.
So we have to have the maturityto be able to know what I am,
what I stand for, what I can doand what type of contribution I
will be doing in that situation,to be able to navigate with
certainty most of the time,let's say not all of the time.
Gautham (14:09):
I love that answer.
There's a lesson there foreveryone.
Let's now move to the lessonsection of our podcast, where we
ask you about the substantivearea of your expertise and try
to get your perspectives.
You have traveled the world,you know, coming from the Middle
East, now in Europe and travelto the US and so forth.
What is it that you see that iscommon amongst all retail,
(14:33):
global retail, and what areinstances of uniqueness?
Ghalia (14:37):
Yeah, this is really interesting and I have been
concentrating a lot of time intothinking and writing about that
, like externalizing my thoughts, because I have been raised in
that generation who has beenvery familiarized with
consumption and overconsumptionand for the past 20 or 30 years
(14:58):
our consumption patterns havebeen formatted in a way to say
that if we want to go to asupermarket, it should be that
way.
If we want to go buy clothesand garments, it should be that
way.
If we want to do this in arestaurant, it should be that
way.
So we have come to a certainunderstanding of codes through
practices that have been givento us, because the market
(15:20):
stabilized around a certainretail pattern and environment
and through globalization, ithas tried to repeat those
patterns in different parts ofthe world.
So, yes, it's true that thescope of work that I did
concentrated mainly on theMiddle Eastern and European
markets, and it was only untilrecently that I discovered the
North American markets Canada,the French part and the US.
(15:44):
The North American markets,canada, the French part and the
US.
During my short visit I had toopen my eyes because things were
shockingly different thesenotions between smaller and
bigger, the notions of customerservice, the notions of
consumption moderatedconsumption, overconsumption,
and the notion of being focusedand customer focused were very
(16:05):
different.
And to summarize this in a fewwords, I think that what caught
my attention is that whatAmerican textbooks promoted and
taught in marketing and retaildoes not translate into the
actual market's reality.
Something went wrong in thepast years and many retail
related notions have beenforgotten or put away.
(16:27):
How many times and I rememberbecause I did an American
curriculum at university when Iwas doing my bachelor's how many
times I've read Philip Kotlerabout marketing and integrating
that notion of service, so onand so forth.
And when I went to the UnitedStates I was shocked.
I did not see any of that and Isaid, ok, what went wrong there
(16:50):
?
What is happening to the market?
Why do these things change?
And then I started goingshopping and I saw that there is
this extra effort put on toliquidating, merchandise,
selling, selling, selling, whichis very American in terms of
consumption, and what we seetoday in Europe is that we
should recycle, we should reselland things are very different,
(17:13):
even though we're living in thesame world, same universe, from
consumption patterns.
So it's interesting to see thattoday.
This notion of localization isvery interesting and it gets you
back to the point that cultureis really interesting in retail
and we need to understand itbecause our local consumption
(17:34):
patterns are very interestingand very important and they
influence a lot the shape ofretail.
I know that I started answeringthis question by saying we have
been formatted for the past 20years into understanding that
consumption had codes and thesecodes were repeated everywhere.
But today retailers came tothat realization that, no, even
(17:56):
though we have or we might adoptprocesses that are similar,
it's very important to adaptthem to the local market and to
the local culture and localconsumption patterns, and this
might reshape the concept andthe way consumers are going to
consume.
So yeah, there are manydifferences today and I think we
(18:18):
are starting to re-celebratethese differences in retail, and
this is a beautiful thingcelebrate these differences in
retail, and this is a beautifulthing.
Gautham (18:26):
We shared the same observations.
There is so much that is saidin our textbooks, but when it
comes to actually applications,it falls away.
What do you think is core toretail?
What should retailers focus ontoday, when customer preferences
are changing?
The need for technologyadoption, basic features, and
(18:47):
then the add-ons, and then thecompletion to what the brand and
the service is and what it aimsto serve, what types of
(19:26):
customers and how, etc.
Ghalia (19:28):
These basics would include the product, the people,
the service, the retailenvironment all the cliché,
actually, that we have beenworking on for forever now.
But then, with the integrationof technology, with the
advancements, retailers werevery excited to say like, yeah,
(19:48):
I want to integrate thistechnology, I want to add on
this surface, I want to do thisand that.
And they started focusing onthese add-ons as being silos,
without integrating themholistically into the system,
and this, if I might use theword, become astray from the
nature of the brand.
They forgot that an add-onshould complete the initial
(20:10):
model, so they forgot aboutexcellence, they forgot about
customer service, they forgotabout how we add value through
delivering our day-to-dayexperiences.
The little things have driftedaway and the people working for
the brand also started losingthat focus.
Like are we doing a day-to-dayjob or are we building a career
(20:35):
or are we part of a brand?
These are different elementsthat we need to address today
and that retailers haveforgotten, and it's a shame.
Today I'm observing a lot ofcustomer services because I'm
shocked.
I cannot believe today going toa restaurant and paying 50, 60
or 100 euros and seeing thewaiter come and throw like a
(20:58):
cutlery in front of me.
I mean, I cannot accept it.
In fast food services they aremore attentive and more
attending.
What is happening today?
I think that today we were veryexcited into saying that we
have lots of things going onwith the brand.
We have the latest technologies, but we don't have the people
(21:20):
knowing how to operate thetechnology and how it links to
all other services that we havein or within our brand, and
that's a shame.
So if we want to be omnichannel, if we want to have the unified
commerce, if we want to use thebest new things that we can add
on to the world, this does notmean that everything essential
and basic and that forms thebasic components of the brand
(21:46):
cannot be left aside and cannotbe invested in, and this is, I
think, the major drawback intoday's retail management
environment.
Rich (21:55):
Not that we go into this with a script, but obviously we
have a set of questions and thishas turned into a very much a
conversation.
And to Paula's point of seeingthe reaction from Gotham and I,
you know he's an academic with acuriosity in retail.
I'm a retail executive with acuriosity for how marketing and
(22:17):
retail are taught, and both ofus have discussed at length
where that gap is and I thinkyou're identifying a lot of it.
I think the first question I'mgoing to ask is you mentioned
technology.
Do you find that retailers areprioritizing adding on new
technology to truly solveproblems, or are they looking to
(22:39):
add technology simply to say Ijust added this and look over,
you come into our store andthere are promotions and you go
(23:05):
into the store, you pick up thatpromotion and he tells you scan
the QR code, download the appand we will give you a 10%
discount, since it's your firstpurchase.
Ghalia (23:16):
And, excited as you might be, you scan that QR code,
you try to open the site and itdoesn't open because you're
underground, there is no 3G, no5G and no Wi-Fi.
And how would you like me toopen and fill in and do the
application when there is noWi-Fi?
Haven't you considered this,dear retailer?
This is the most basic thingand the most frustrating things
(23:40):
that a customer can endure.
Okay, we tell you that we haveself-checkout.
Do it and wave if you have aproblem.
And then you go intoself-checkout and you scan the
items but the scanner is notworking.
And then you call someoneplease can you help?
No, ma'am, we don't have ittill today open, so you have to
(24:02):
do the, turn back again and findanother.
And I mean, like here, you wantto just end your life because
you have been waiting for Godknows.
These are the simple things andsometimes I talk about the
simplest and I say and I quotesimplest details because today,
downloading an app, scanning aQR code, doing self-checkouts
(24:24):
are becoming so basic in retail.
But if retailers cannot payattention to these little
details, if they think that theyare adding value to our
customer journey in-store andonline, they're so wrong,
Because when we are frustrated,it is so negative that we don't
want to see the retailer againand we don't want to come again
(24:46):
to do business with them.
So they have lost more thanthey have gained and you ask
yourself was it worth itinvesting such money and losing
clients instead of getting moreclients on boards?
These are the simple things.
So I believe that today, yeah,there are lots of retailers who
(25:07):
have been excited and we quoteexcited to integrate all of
these technologies, but theyhave failed to holistically
integrate them in the businessmodel and to train employees to
understand how to manipulatethose technologies in order to
add value to the customerjourney that they were hoping
that they would turn into a morepositive one.
Rich (25:29):
You mentioned earlier consumption.
If you look at the non-USmarket and you look at
consumerism and you look atwhere we have built so much on
consumerism, Do you see shiftswithin US retail that are
positive in nature and do youthink they're sustainable?
Ghalia (25:48):
Today.
I think I'm not in a perfectposition to be able to answer
that question concerning the USbecause I haven't spent the
necessary time observing it onthe floor or in situ as I might,
and saying that I might nothave all the answers today, but
I think that the US still liketo promote consumption and still
(26:11):
likes to have a certain type ofreaction from its consumers
based on them coming and payingand doing more business with
them.
But I don't think thatAmericans or the American market
is ready into educating itsconsumers on a different
consumption pattern.
They are not there yet.
(26:32):
Maybe it should take some timeto rethink retail processes in
the US and by finding othertypes of alternatives in which
customers could contribute tothe business positively, but not
necessarily through consumingor buying products.
Would this entail more types ofbusiness integrating services
(26:57):
such as conciergerie, likereparation, bringing in products
, consigning products, investingmore in secondhand markets,
vintage, etc.
Maybe we have seen this flow ona bigger scale in Europe and I
think the US is taking more timeto implement it because the
(27:18):
culture is very much built onconsumption and overconsumption
of the physical product, likethe ownership of the product,
and the Americas like a lot theterm of experience.
However, experiences come in asa secondary add on to the
transactional experience that wewant to put fore and foremost.
(27:39):
This is still my point of viewtoday, and I think I need to
take more time intocorroborating it in the future.
Rich (27:48):
Do you say and I'll ask it from your perspective in the
retailers that you see, do youthink that the consumer is
driving retailer change or thatthe retailers are driving
consumer change?
When you talk about things likecircular commerce and
experience and consumption?
Ghalia (28:05):
I think in Europe that the consumer is starting to play
an important role into changingthe perspective of the retailer
and pushing retailers tointegrate different types of
services to meet thoseconsumers' needs.
But I can tell you thateducation is starting at home
and at school, where there isthis discourse common discourse
(28:26):
and you hear it a lot with theyoungsters about the new
patterns of consumption, theimportance of ownership and
non-ownership, ephemeralownership, etc.
This is becoming very culturaland is promoted a lot at a young
age.
Now, is the US doing the samething with people from school,
(28:50):
at school, educating them ontoconsuming differently and better
?
Or are they just mentioning itfrom time to time?
Because five years from now,the generation that will be
becoming more active andconsumer that will be consuming
actively on the market is theone who is going to be
challenging retailers becausethey are going to be more
(29:11):
demanding or demanding thatthings would be done differently
.
But I think today the markethas not invested in that type of
education yet.
The market has not invested inthat type of education yet.
So the retailer is the onecontrolling what its customers
are going to be doing.
And this is on the US part, andin Europe the dynamic is
(29:32):
becoming a little bit morechallenging because the consumer
and his mindset or her mindset,if you might say is becoming
more challenging to retailers.
They have become very difficultto please in.
Gautham (29:45):
Europe.
Ghalia, let me ask you afollow-up question.
What about metrics ofperformance that companies have?
Won't that lead tooverconsumption as well?
Do you see different companiesin the Middle East and Europe?
Is performance measureddifferently, in contrast to more
public-facing companies here,where it's driven by growth
(30:07):
metrics, profit cost measures?
Ghalia (30:10):
Are we all measuring things in the same way?
Lately there have been somecompanies where managers have
been educated differently, comewith a different type of vision,
where managers have not beenworking in the same retail let's
say, sector or company for thepast 10 or 15 years, people who
have this disruptive mindset,and maybe they have started
(30:34):
calculating things differently.
When we started looking moreinto these questions of unified
commerce in that omni-channelcontext, we said that it would
be very difficult for us toisolate every single channel
that we have and calculate itsKPIs or return on investment.
It might be very reductionistand then we might start
(30:56):
calculating a holistic equation,looking more on return of
experiences and saying, like,how things are evolving here, if
I'm doing a certain action inchannel number one, what is the
effect on channel number two,and so on and so forth.
This would calm down managementa little bit and telling them
(31:16):
okay, I know that we needresults, I know that we need to,
I know that we need to live, Iknow that we need to make money.
But, guys, we are adding on somany things, so many investments
that are heavy, and the resultswould be coming differently and
elsewhere, especially with thecase of those brands who have
highly invested in pop-up storesand events.
(31:37):
I mean, how the hell can youisolate a return on investment
on an event that took one day ortwo and that costed that much
money?
But the returns will be seenelsewhere, on a different
channel, and it's impossible forus to go and isolate and
calculate, to have the maturityinside the company, with our
(32:00):
managers, to retrain our mindsetand think that KPIs and ROIs
are very important.
But we need to find a newformula, a new set of metrics
that will help us understand howthe business model runs
holistically, every integrationthat we have done and every
investment as an action, and howthe reaction will be later on
(32:21):
in terms of visibility, in termsof integration, in terms of
newcomers to the brand and interms of purchase.
This is a different mindset.
I might not have the answertoday because we don't have so
many cases of companies doingthat today, but it's a nice way
to just start educatingourselves in the company within
(32:43):
that new concept that isbecoming our next normal.
Rich (32:46):
With everything that we've talked about.
Is there a retailer or a brandthat you've encountered anywhere
worldwide that does a good jobthat you would use as an example
in how they connect with theircustomers and how they connect
with their customers?
Ghalia (33:00):
I don't think that I have a straight answer to that.
Yes, and I think we're notthere yet.
I think that there are manybrands that try to be, or trying
to become, more holistic interms of their model,
integrating as much physical anddigital.
I don't have one brand in mindthat has perfectly done that,
(33:22):
because it takes a lot of timeto understand what we need, how
we need to integrate it beforebecoming perfect and whole as
much as we expected to betheoretically.
Rich (33:35):
You've spoken about advice you've received throughout your
career and had mentioned acouple of people who I like the
expression kind of tore up theyellow tablet sheet.
If you were and I will tell youI love the passion that you
have for the retail industry Ifyou had the chance to speak to
(33:55):
somebody who was just startingoff in their career journey,
what advice would you give them?
Ghalia (34:00):
I would tell them that retail is both mentally and
physically challenging anddemanding.
If you want to start yourcareer in retail, you must be
prepared to delve into thesmallest details, regardless of
your educational level orbackground.
Excelling in retail meanscounting boxes, cleaning shelves
(34:23):
, spending hours in thestockroom, assisting colleagues
with wiping the floor duringrush hours.
This is a hands-on approachthat should be integrated within
your state of mind and it'scrucial for understanding retail
and being able to demystify theprocess later on.
And I would also tell them thatretail is human-centric and
(34:45):
customer-centric.
It means that any person whowill be working in retail
closely with retailers will bespending hours on the shop floor
, on the floor in the market, atthe heart of the action and
online.
So they have to be observing,examining, participating in the
process in order to deepen theirunderstanding and enriching
(35:07):
their perspective.
Most importantly, any person'svalue lies in the strength of
the team and the people who wework with.
So we have to be very open andvery helpful and very proactive,
and we need to ask for helpwhen it's needed.
And we need to maintain ourhonesty with all people and
(35:28):
during all interactions.
And, most importantly, theadvice that I give everyone and
anyone who will be working inretail, is to stay humble and
committed to continuous learning, and when you think you know
everything, then it's time tostart relearning something new,
and this is the only way thatyou will grow and evolve.
Rich (35:50):
One last question before we jump into the rapid fire
round.
What do you think is the mostunderrated skill set?
Ghalia (35:56):
I think communication, the personal interaction, have
become so overlooked.
We are becoming so sociallyunsocial and I think this is a
major point that all retailersand everyone should stop on to
see what's happening and theextent to which this is
affecting us doing business withretailers, and affecting
(36:20):
retailers who are hiring peopleand not being able to meet their
objectives because they don'thave the drive of the people.
So there is a human problem andwe need to rethink that and try
to put a little bit of heartagain into the process of our
businesses and day-to-day lives.
Like we have to really comeback and be more human.
Rich (36:42):
And I think that's great advice in a day and age where
people are either embracing orworried about AI and the
continual reminder that it's atechnology.
It can be a wonderful thing isa wonderful thing, but it's
humans that matter most.
Ghalia (36:58):
Exactly.
Rich (36:59):
All right, so we are going to go into the rapid fire round
.
Three questions First thingthat pops into your head a
chance to have a little bit offun.
You've spoken worldwide.
Do you have a specific walk-onsong or theme song that defines
you?
Ghalia (37:14):
I love listening to music, right, and it becomes so
natural when we're singing itgoing out of the house under the
shower at the office.
But I think that my heartalways belongs to one song
entitled El Cantante, and thelyrics convey the message that
while the performer is beingcelebrated and adored on stage,
(37:36):
they often face loneliness andhardship and unrecognized
struggles behind the scene, andthey highlight how people only
see success but theyunderestimate all the effort and
the pain and sacrifices that gowith it.
It teaches me every time andreminds me that, ok, maybe today
(37:57):
in retail, in my profession, Imight be known, I might be
addressed as the expert, so onand so forth, but when I go off
that stage I might be a nobodyto everybody.
So it reminds us again to bereally humble and know that
(38:18):
there are other things that alsoneed to make us happy, fulfill
us, and we constantly need to bereminded with that.
Rich (38:29):
Second question if you could automate one part of your
life, what would it be?
Ghalia (38:33):
If I could automate the organization.
It would be great, because I'mthat type of person who has to
have everything around her welldone and on time, and all the
time, from cleaning the house tomaking the bed, to preparing my
luggage, to selecting what towear the next day and planning
my itinerary.
(38:54):
Like the simple things have toalways be perfect with me.
So I wish I could automatethose things and invest more
time in other tasks that I don'talways find the time in doing,
because I have lost already alot with these organization
tasks.
Rich (39:11):
I can definitely relate to that.
Absolutely All right.
You can immediately transportyourself to anywhere in the
world for one day.
You can go there instantly.
No long travel plans.
Where would you go in the worldand what would you look forward
to the most?
Ghalia (39:26):
After much thought to this type of question, I think I
realized that I would be veryhappy to be right here right now
, in my father's garden backhome, and I would eagerly
anticipate listening to him,watching him find joy in the
simplest yet the most fulfillingtasks, such as planting and
(39:46):
harvesting, and this detachmentfrom the burdens of the daily
life would put everything intoperspective and would constantly
remind me and us that the focusshould be on the little things
that truly matter and that addvalue to ourselves and to our
lives.
So there are lots of beautifulthings and places that I would
(40:08):
love to see, but I think thatthis is the one place that I
would love to go to right now.
Rich (40:14):
Ghalia, that is such an amazing way to end this episode
and, on behalf of all of us,thank you very, very much for
participating today.
I cannot wait for our audienceto hear this episode.
Ghalia (40:27):
Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me, andI'm honored to be in contact
with you today and to have hadthis conversation with all of
you.
Thank you so much.
Paula (40:38):
Man.
There were just a ton ofquestions I wanted to ask her.
She's absolutely fascinating.
Gautham (40:43):
I'm curious to get your thoughts, Rich and Gautham,
Well, I'm going to start off bygetting Rich's perspective,
because she talked abouttextbook versus application and
how we things written in thebooks that are in the 80s are
not executed today.
Rich (40:59):
I knew you were going to ask that question and Paula,
being on mute, was messagingthat she was laughing because
both of us seem to be coming outof our skin.
I mean, I think she's right andyou, but the case studies
become dated very quickly and Idon't know that it does a great
(41:28):
job representing what retailreally is and that it does a
disservice to the retailindustry by not really painting
a good picture of how it's run,how it should be run and where
the opportunities are.
What are your thoughts?
Gautham (41:43):
I took it a different way, in the sense that the way I
heard it was what she wastrying to say.
There's certain core aspects toretail that are covered in many
a book which are not executedand not emphasized as much these
days, be it creating value, beit customer service and so forth
.
So I found the disconnect therebetween what is mentioned in
(42:07):
the textbook versus what isbeing applied and the fear of
missing out when it comes tosome of these emerging features
in retail are something that Iwill take back to my students.
Focus on the fundamentals.
I say I've learned this fromAndy.
I think it was poor concrete,important things to do first
(42:28):
before you can build that castle.
Rich (42:30):
Paula, when you were on mute, what were you going to
jump out of your skin and ask?
Paula (42:36):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I'm always curious aboutthe women perspective and women
in leadership and women inretail and women in retail.
Now that I'm getting morefamiliarized with this industry,
really in an in-depth level,she's got this wealth of
knowledge that I just wanted toknow more about.
We're going to have to do around table with her, absolutely
(42:56):
, or have a LinkedIn live.
So listen, for part two ofGhalia's return to Retail
Relates, I will say one and I'llask you both on this one.
It was an area that I probablycould have spent about 30
minutes.
Rich (43:04):
I'll ask you both on this one.
It was an area that I probablycould have spent about 30
minutes on, and that's the ideaof circular commerce and how she
went through.
In Europe, consumers are reallypushing retailers for it, and
how in this country, we'vebecome so promotionally driven
and, yes, the number oneobjective is profit, but so,
(43:25):
profit driven and growth driven,it is challenging to think that
we're going to get to a pointwhere circular commerce, or
e-commerce or whatever you callit, is going to be important.
Have you guys seen it startingto happen more?
What are your thoughts on whatshe was saying?
Gautham (43:41):
I agree 100% with what she said.
Right, I think in some ways,Europe and the rest of the world
might lead in the context ofcircular economy, but what stood
out to me was her push forchanging the minds of the
leaders within retail to thinkin terms of what are the other
(44:03):
ways to create value.
And circular economy, ore-commerce, whatever you want to
call it, is just that is thatlet's create value by taking a
more holistic, longer termperspective that includes not
just the consumer but also theplanet in some ways.
So I enjoyed the conversation.
I also enjoyed the fact that Ikept trying her on metrics,
(44:23):
because I do think that to makethe change, you need to align
with metrics and evaluate peopleon the metrics.
That was the part ofconversation I enjoyed the most.
Rich (44:33):
Yeah, the metrics are important, but I also think and
it ties back to in this caseit's retailers finding a way to
make a profit at it, to driverevenue, but making the world a
better place.
Paula (44:44):
I think that, regardless of what industry you're in
retail, tech, journalism,medicine, education there is
always a way to give back or toreuse, and it's really nice to
see more people talking aboutcircular economy, about
re-commerce, about sustainablefashion, because these are
(45:06):
things that are impacting us nowand that are also going to
continue to impact, especiallyour children.
Rich (45:13):
It was the one criticism that I had in the first course
that I taught was that I didn'tspend enough time on
sustainability, and maybe that'swhat this generation will be
attracted to in retail is if webring the potential positive
impact on society to life more.
So maybe that's a goal.
Gautham (45:32):
I agree that the students love to hear it, but I
think it's very complex to teachin a classroom setting and I
think the more people we bringand more diverse perspectives we
bring in to the challenges toachieving a sustainable future,
the better off the futuregenerations will be and better
of the planet will be.
Paula (45:51):
Thank you so Ghalia, for joining us today and sharing her
fantastic perspective from herglobal retail experience, and a
big thank you to all ourlisteners for tuning in.
At Retail Relates, we strive tobring you a diversity of voices
and insights that represent a360-degree view of retail from
experts across the globe.
We hope you found today'sconversation as relatable and
inspiring as we did on behalf ofmy podcast BFFs Gautham and
(46:14):
Rich.
This is Paula signing off untilnext time.
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