September 5, 2024 • 44 mins
What happens when you mix Wall Street savvy with creative retail innovation? In this episode, Melissa Gonzalez, principal at MG2, takes us through her extraordinary career journey. From navigating the aftermath of 9-11 to pioneering the integration of physical and digital retail spaces, Melissa’s story is a testament to resilience and visionary thinking. We'll uncover how she transitioned from finance to spearheading transformative retail strategies and working with major brands to reinvent consumer experiences.
Ever wondered how shifting from a hands-on founder to a visionary coach can revolutionize your business? Melissa breaks it down, emphasizing the importance of understanding where your highest value lies and the evolving landscape of consumer behavior. Younger generations are redefining expectations, pushing the move from product-centric to experience-led retail design. Hear Melissa’s insights on how intuitive technology is becoming crucial for creating seamless, engaging customer journeys, and why pop-up stores are not just a trend but a powerful tool for market testing and consumer connection.
COVID-19 has made brands rethink their real estate strategies, and Melissa provides thought-provoking examples like Dick’s Sporting Goods and Nordstrom, which are leading the way with unique, localized flagship experiences. She also shares personal stories about mentors who've influenced her path, offering sage advice for students and professionals alike. Whether it’s the wisdom of curiosity, the power of mentorship, or the strategic use of technology, Melissa’s insights promise to inspire and educate, making this episode a must-listen for anyone passionate about the future of retail.
Melissa Gonzalez Biography:
Melissa Gonzalez is a principal at MG2, a leading global design and architecture firm, where she heads the MG2 Advisory Group. With a robust background as a Wall Street executive and seasoned entrepreneur, Melissa has become a key advisor to some of the fastest-growing direct-to-consumer companies and well-established brands. Her expertise lies in blending innovative strategies with actionable insights from concept through implementation, continually pushing the boundaries of experiential retail environments. Melissa and her team have pioneered the integration of physical and digital retail spaces, creating cutting-edge concepts that enhance consumer engagement for major brands like Nordstrom, Victoria’s Secret, and Kizik. She is the author of "The Pop-up Paradigm: How Brands Build Human Connections in a Digital Age" and has produced over 200 brick-and-mortar experiences nationwide. These projects focus on creating immersive moments that drive ROI and allow clients to convey compelling stories to their audience. Her significant contributions to the field have garnered prestigious recognitions, including being named one of the Top 10 Executives in New York City to Watch by the New York Business Journal, one of WWD’s “25 Most Influential Women Leaders of 2022”, and consistently recognized as one of the leading ‘Women In Design’ and ‘Top Retail Design Influencers of the Year’. Additionally, Melissa is a prolific speaker and has been featured in publications like The New York Times and Forbes. She is the creator and host of the Retail Refined podcast, which explores future in-store technologies and has spoken at major industry events such as Shoptalk and NRF’s Retail’s Big Show. Melissa finds inspiration in adventurous activities outside her professional pursuits, such as skydiving from 10,000 feet.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paula (00:00):
Hey, my podcast BFF.
Rich (00:02):
Have you figured out?
So you don't want to sayco-hosts, are you landing on
podcast BFFs?
Gautham (00:07):
Pretty much, yeah, okay , I can relate with that, no one
called me BFF, so this isawesome.
Paula (00:13):
I'll make you charm your BFF bracelet and send it to you.
Rich (00:16):
You know it is.
I am laughing because, as muchdeliberation as we went through
as to what to call this and welanded on relates and now it's
like natural that we keep usingit in in different shows in
different ways.
Paula (00:30):
So I think it's become very relatable well, I'm excited
about melissa, first of all asa female.
Anytime we can have a woman,just inspire other women, show
the rope, show that you know awoman is made this far.
Gautham (00:43):
I'm all for that yeah, I'm excited because you know
it's not often that you seesomeone who starts off their
career in finance, moving intoretail and up to more of the
experiential aspects of retailright and an entrepreneur as
well.
So it'll be interesting to seehow that journey evolved, what
were the pivotal points in thattransformation, if you will, and
(01:05):
where she sees retail andcustomer experience heading.
Rich (01:11):
Yeah, I you know she's been a unique influence.
She sees things differently.
When many in the retail worldwere heading towards the digital
space, as this is the death ofphysical retail, she was one of
those that has always championedphysical retail and the
integration, the seamlessintegration with digital and
(01:33):
really focusing on that, whetheryou call it unified commerce or
omni-channel or just thecustomer experience.
So I'm always interested inhearing her perspective on what
is going on in the industry.
Gautham (01:45):
Well.
So I had the good fortune ofactually listening to her speak
when I was running the Centerfor Retail Transformation at
George Mason University.
You know she spoke to a wholebunch of students and it was one
of the most influentialsessions when it came to
influencing students to thinkabout retail in a different
light.
And it's not just because ofher experiences but the way she
(02:08):
presented herself in that30-minute conversation that
always stood out to me.
So I can't wait to see how thisconversation goes.
Paula (02:16):
Fantastic.
So shall we get into it,gentlemen?
Hi, melissa.
We are excited to welcomeMelissa Gonzalez to the program
today at Retail Relate.
Melissa is a principal at MG2and leads their MG2 advisory
group, where she mergesinnovative strategies with deep
industry insights to transformretail environments.
She has pioneered significantadvancements of integrating
(02:38):
physical and digital spaces formajor brands like Nordstrom and
Victoria's Secret.
Recognized as one of the top 10executives in New York City to
watch, and consistently listedamong WWD's 2025 most
influential women leaders,melissa's impact on retail
design is absolutely profound.
For those interested inexploring her extensive
contributions to the field,melissa's biography is available
(03:00):
on our show link.
So, melissa, thank you so muchfor joining us.
Yes, thank you so much forhaving me.
Melissa (03:06):
It's always nice to hear an introduction of yourself
.
Paula (03:11):
I appreciate it.
Well, you're lucky because Ionly gave the short version, so
I'm going to read your bio atanother time.
So this is where we want to getto know you a little bit more,
not your entire resume, but whatled you to where you are today.
That's what we really want toknow.
If retail relates, is whatmakes you so relatable, and also
how can other people relate toyou and get to where you're
(03:32):
going?
What were the three mostpivotal moments or points in
your career, that or life thathave led you to where you are
today?
Melissa (03:40):
Well, I started my career on Wall Street and I was
there sitting at the trainingdesk when 9-11 happened.
So I would have to say that'sprobably the first pivotal.
I knew what we had to do in themoment, but I think it was the
first time I really questionedlike, what is my bigger mission
when something so substantial ishappening around you?
And then that's when I firststarted to explore other avenues
(04:02):
outside of finance.
My second would be, I guess, 10years later, in 2009, where I
officially left finance, and Ithink the pivotal moment was I
had an amazing boss at the timewho was an incredible mentor,
who always pushed me for more.
And when I realized I was insuch an advantageous position to
have a boss like that right,who's like always pushing you to
(04:24):
be more, then my heart wasn'tthere.
So to have a boss like thatright, who's like always pushing
you to be more, but my heartwasn't there.
So it was a recognition of thatand I actually, in a meeting,
when he sat me down to promoteme, I asked him to fire me
instead.
So it was an interestingconversation.
He was in shock but supersupportive, came back to me by
the end of the day with packageand so it gave me so much runway
(04:44):
to explore what I could be.
And then I think the next, thelast and that third spectrum
would be my realization, becausewhen I left I didn't really
have a clear plan of where I wasgoing to go.
I just knew I wanted to pursuesomething a bit more creative.
Really didn't know it'd be inretail, but it was the epiphany
(05:08):
that happened that helped merealize why I enjoyed it so much
was my third, and it was thishappy kind of marriage, bringing
my business background butbeing able to always be in
creative conversations and sobeing able to have that hybrid
dynamic in my career was mythird kind of like pivotal
moment when that aha happened.
Paula (05:29):
Tell us a little bit more about that.
What?
Where you're doing now?
So you're saying you beingbeing able to merge these two
elements in your life.
What does it?
What does your day-to-day looklike?
Melissa (05:39):
I don't know.
The day-to-day though isdifferent, because I have kind
of an external role and aninternal role at our
organization, but I would saythe commonality is strategy and
innovation, whether we'rethinking that through for our
clients or how that happensinternally in the way in which
we work.
So a day to day or week to weekis a mix of that the internal
lens and the external journaland I would say for me it's
(06:02):
always being constantly curiousand kind of not just reading and
observing, but I'm alwaysthinking through what does this
mean?
What does this signify Like?
What evolution is happeningthat we need to pay attention to
?
What opportunity is thatopening up for us?
And I think I bring that frombeing on a trading desk for so
many years in the earlier partsof my career, where like
(06:24):
real-time analysis kind ofalways had to happen, because I
had news coming in at our 7 40am meeting from all of our
research analysts telling uswhat they were thinking and
asking questions.
Then you had the news going onin the background.
Then I had other people on thetrading desk.
I was on the sales side, liketalking through and we had to
make market and all this stuff.
So you always had to be quicklyabsorbing information,
(06:46):
connecting dots and findingopportunities.
And so I bring that mindset totoday.
And so I'm thinking about, youknow, overarching trends and how
consumers are evolving, howtechnology is evolving, and
trying to extract insight out ofthat.
And then working closely witheither our design teams or our
client creative teams, beingthat kind of positive agitator,
(07:10):
thinking you're like okay, howcould those learnings help us
think different?
Or pierce complacency?
Or you know, a lot of the timespeople want to evolve but an
evolution ends up being theychange a fixture, but that's not
really evolutionary.
So, taking that mindset to ourclients, to our design team, and
then also internally beingexplorative in the way in which
(07:33):
we approach the work, and Iwould say most actively now.
It's like that exploration inAI and what that's going to mean
for our industry.
Rich (07:41):
Do you have a trademark?
Positive agitator.
Melissa (07:44):
I have that could be my Melissa Gonzalez positive
agitator, trademark.
Rich (07:48):
I like it.
Melissa (07:49):
I have not.
Paula (07:51):
Yeah, that's hilarious.
I like to say positivelypersistent.
That's what I tell my bosseswhen they ask me if I can get
something done.
I'm like you would be surprisedhow you get things done when
you are positively persistent.
I'm going to ask one morequestion and then I'm going to
open it up to Gotham and Rich,but I'm curious to learn more
about you as a woman in thatposition.
So you came from Wall Street.
(08:11):
I'm envisioning a female wolfof Wall Street for some reason
in my mind and in transition tothis very detailed human-centric
role which you know Wall StreetI don't know, I've only seen
the movies, but it seems verycutthroat and to go to something
where you have to be veryempathetic and intuitive into
what the consumer wants and whatthey need.
(08:32):
So how are you able to makethat transition and how are you
able it's kind of a two parterto be such a strong woman
amongst all those men?
Melissa (08:42):
because as half the men have the call today as men yeah
.
Paula (08:47):
Yeah, but if you're a strong woman, in any field, it
doesn't matter.
They label you as a bitch.
If you're a people pleaser, Imean, you're called a doormat,
right.
So I'm curious to understandmore, and for our listeners as
well.
You know we will have a goodbit of women that are coming up.
What does that look like?
How were you able to navigatethat?
Take what you had learned, makethat transition, but also be
(09:09):
that strong female in both ofthose arenas.
Melissa (09:12):
Yeah well, I was well trained in being the female in
the arena by having fourbrothers and also starting Make
Green Wall Street.
Because Wall Street?
Because back then there was notas many women as there are
today.
I would say I was veryfortunate when I worked on Wall
Street where I didn't have asmuch of an uphill battle of how
(09:36):
do I get into the boys club.
I had really strong women withme on the desk and you did have
to learn how to navigate that alittle bit, but they were more
like big brother approaches tome too.
So I was, I was fortunate inthat aspect and I had a lot of
advocate.
But a couple of things I learnedover time is it's all about
approach.
You know.
I mean I don't think we'regonna come in close to ever
(09:59):
fully changing like the dynamicsof different genders.
We're always going to be a bitdifferent.
We're just wired different.
I see the difference, like evenat my daughter's age and eight,
at eight years old, and how shealready thinks as a female
versus a male.
So there's just some things inthat.
But I think it's it is factual.
We have to approach differentlyhow we express certain things
(10:22):
because we are given differentconnotations.
I could sit in a call with mymale counterpart, who could very
directly give somebody amessage that I find to be pretty
harsh and inappropriate, but itis well received by a man on
the other side because that'show they talk to each other.
If I delivered the message thesame exact way, yes, I'd
probably be a bitch, but I knowthat, and so, instead of being
(10:45):
bothered by it, I take theapproach of I'm smarter because
I know that and understand that,and so I'm going to deliver the
same exact message and I'mgoing to do it with finesse, and
it's going to land probablyeven more effectively.
And so it's an art a little bit, you know.
But I and I've read a lot ofbooks and I could recommend some
of those books.
(11:07):
I give those books to my teamsactually to read, depending
where they are at in theircareer path.
One is called impact player,another one's called the
multipliers, and depending whereyou're at in your career
trajectory, different books willbe appropriate, because where
you're at and what kind of teamsyou're managing Like are you
individual performer, are youmanaging teams, et cetera.
(11:33):
But I think when you can kindof open up the dialogue with
disarming the person on theother side.
You can deliver a lot moreinformation that way.
Fantastic, thank you, yeah, so Ican give you an example where I
might say hey, I want to talkto you about something, because
I know that we mutually want tobe really successful at this,
and so I have a couple of ideasthat I'd like to talk through
with you of how I think we couldmore effectively get there and
(11:54):
so open it up more that way.
So it opens up the dialoguedifferently than being like
you're doing this wrong and yousuck at this because I can't
stand it.
You know it's essentially, I'mstill saying those things, but
I'm delivering it in a differentway.
Paula (12:09):
Yeah, yeah, it's all about how you say it and I what
you said resonates with me.
Right, you've got to learn therules of the game in order to
play them, so why get upset?
At least you've got the rulebook.
A lot of people don't even getthat.
Yeah, I'm going to take a pause.
Gotham Rich.
Gautham (12:25):
It's difficult to follow up with that, but I'm
going to try and follow up onthat.
You worked in a male-dominatedindustry, right, and your
accomplishments are wide, andmany Just talk about one of
those accomplishments thatyou're most proud of and why,
right, like a lot of this is alearning experience for students
(12:46):
and future retailers.
So just give us a snippet ofhow Melissa thinks and what
makes success for you.
Melissa (12:54):
Well, I would say one of the things kind of more
recently on my journey that I'mproud of is my personal growth
as a founder who was acquired bya larger organization and
finding my way within adifferent infrastructure and
figuring out how you navigatethat forward relationships and
(13:14):
also learn a lot about in orderto grow where you have to let go
, and it's been a big learning.
But I'm proud of seeing if Ilook back and sometimes I think
it's very easy to forget to lookback at what you've achieved
and take a moment and pause andsee that, because you're always
like looking at the present andcriticizing yourself for that.
(13:37):
But if I look back from when weannounced the acquisition to
today, I personally think I'vegrown a lot in understanding.
As a founder with a certainvision, you're not always meant
to be a doer as much as you aremeant to be like a big picture
thinker who facilitates andcoaches.
And my transition of being adoer to a coach has been one
(14:01):
where I think you know I stillhave more growth there.
But when I look back, I thinkI'm proud of being able to
invest the energy I needed tounderstand how can I get to that
point, because I do think a lotof founders struggle at certain
points to grow, especiallythrough an acquisition, because
(14:21):
they can't give up certainthings.
Eventually you learn if youcan't give those things up, then
maybe you don't have the rightteam.
Gautham (14:28):
Can I double click on that question?
How do you know when to let go,right?
I mean, for all of us, that'salways a very personal challenge
figuring out when to let go ofan issue, of a project.
What's your thoughts on when,or what are your heuristics on
when to let go?
Melissa (14:46):
I think if you have the right team right, you will set
the table and you will givedirection and you can program
your check-ins.
But I'm saying to myselfespecially leaders, you're super
busy and pulled into a lot morethings and you tend to be a lot
more horizontal than vertical,and so the only way you can be
(15:08):
successful at that isrecognizing where your highest
value is.
So I try to say, okay, where'smy highest value?
If I can determine that andthen make sure I have the right
team supporting what needs to beexecuted around that, then I'm
in a position to let go Fromclient to client or project to
project.
I kind of have to still gutcheck that assessment a little
bit, but to me that's how Ilearned over time when I started
(15:32):
to go through my days.
And just because you're busydoesn't mean you're impactful.
It might just mean you're busy.
And so I was like, okay, if Ilook through my days and my
weeks, am I where I can have thebest, the most effective impact
?
If I am, then that's where Ishould be, but if I'm not, then
that's where I really should beable to let go.
Gautham (15:50):
And you do that every day.
Melissa (15:52):
I mean, I do it week to week.
I don't do it every day, butsometimes in a day I have to
rejigger my day and I'm like, doI really need to be there?
Do somebody on my team?
You don't need me, you guys gotthis, just circle back what I
need to know, and it's anexercise.
It takes practice andrepetition, I think, to more
consistently do it.
Rich (16:19):
So I wrote down obviously, professional, positive agitator
.
If there was if I'm asking youto define in three words or four
words your core expertise thatslogan or headline, what would
it be?
Melissa (16:26):
I think my expertise is the ability to listen and find
the white space opportunity.
I think listening isunderestimated, and often people
try to problem solve as soon asa conversation starts.
So I've learned the power oflistening and so I try to listen
as much as I can and thenilluminate.
(16:47):
Well, have we thought aboutthis?
Have we considered this?
I see an opportunity there.
Rich (16:51):
So take that into consumer behavior and physical retail.
You've obviously applied thoseskills.
How has consumer behaviorchanged over the course of your
career and how have you evolvedwith it?
Melissa (17:04):
Yeah, I mean so much.
I mean the consumer is savvyand savvier every day and I
think that crosses generations.
I've learned to actively studythe younger generations because
they're often the early adoptersof change and then you know it
filters through and then I tryto.
I see more and more of theinfluence that younger
(17:25):
generations have to oldergenerations.
So I'm always studying that andI think there are so many
things that would kickstart aconversation in design before
that were more how many SKUs canwe fit per square foot, and
like there's a lot of spaceplanning first and experiential
kind of followed and it'sflipped on its head a little bit
where I think experience leadsand we understand through the
(17:49):
evolution of the consumer andtechnology that the way we think
about inventory and like howmany products for Squarefoot has
different opportunities now.
So that was one major thing.
I think that the way wekickstart, the way we think of
an environment is a little bitdifferent, because the
opportunities of engagement andtechnology integration and
(18:13):
product fulfillment and endlessaisle and product fulfillment
and endless aisle they wereconversations maybe 10 years ago
, but now there's a differentfluency that the consumer has
and the way in which theyinteract with technology.
That has created a new normal,and what makes technology
integration successful is itsintuitive aspects.
(18:36):
So I'm always studying howwe're evolving, because that
changes what behaviors areintuitive to us as people and as
consumers, which changes theopportunities of how store
environments can be created andlaid out, and even the sales
team you know, the brandambassador is also too like how
they can operate and what's attheir fingertips.
Gautham (18:57):
Melissa, you talked a lot of technology integration in
this conversation and youtalked about younger generation,
right, I'm going to try anddovetail those two elements into
one question, and the questionis I see a lot of people
deploying technology for thesake of technology instead of
actually experience.
Now take it to the youngergeneration, where you've studied
(19:21):
a lot.
How do younger generationsdeploy technology and how do you
think retailers can deploytechnology for a better
experience, right, nottechnology safe?
Melissa (19:32):
For sure.
I'm always asking for the usecase and the why and where it
flows in the journey of thecustomer, because I do think a
lot of the times brands can beseduced by this is what all the
other brands are doing, or whatthey see on the swipe, and we
want to do that too.
So we always have to ask thewhy, what is it facilitating,
how is it in the journey?
(19:54):
Because then that makes itintuitive and not every brand
can answer that the same way,like I think what Nike could do
is very different than a lot ofother brands, because they have
this interactive app and theyhave this audience that's
already interacting with themthat way.
So then to connect it to thein-store experience is natural
and intuitive, right to theirconsumer.
They don't have to downloadsome new app, they're already
(20:16):
engaging that way.
So I always you know we alwayshave to think of the use case,
and the use case can't be abucket answer.
The use case can't be we wantAR, right?
Why Right?
Why?
What is it facilitating?
What problem is it solving?
What is it being additive to?
And then we do have to behonest around your internal
(20:37):
infrastructure and your abilityto keep up with the technology
and the content creation andeverything like that, because
consumers do have a higherexpectations around what those
experiences would be like.
You have to be ready in manyways.
When I studied the youngergeneration, I think it's their
fluidity, that's just the bigdifference.
It's not novel to them most ofthese things.
(20:57):
If I think of the alphageneration that we've barely
touched upon the ability tostudy because they're underage
and you can only extract so muchinformation it's not novel to
them that they can get an answerto anything they want to,
anytime, all the time.
My daughter's age everything issearch it up, search it up.
And if Alexa's not going totell her, siri's going to tell
(21:19):
her.
Anytime, all the time.
My daughter's age everything issearch it up, search it up, you
know.
And if Alexa's not going totell her, siri's going to tell
her.
And you know she can find anylyrics she wants.
She sends me she figures outhow to find TikTok videos and
YouTube videos to send me a bookshe should get for her
nine-year-old birthday party.
Like they have access toanything and they can figure it
out.
It's so intuitive.
So they're they're going tostart introducing a whole other
(21:39):
level of needs that we're goingto have to plan for, because
they're walking in the door somuch more informed and their
ability to blend the physicaland digital line.
In the moment, all the time issecond nature to them.
So that's also.
What do they, you know?
Like versus like.
If my mom, who I adore, walksin, like there's a learning
curve to that right and oh, howdoes this work and what do I
interact with there?
(22:00):
So it's different.
My daughter comes with me toCrate and Barrel, for example,
and whips out her iPad and opensup Roblox and redesigns what
she thinks her bedroom shouldlook like based on what she's
seeing in that environment inthe moment.
That's another level of howshe's actively creating and
(22:22):
thinking about, how she'sengaging with the brand.
So I don't know what that'sgoing to mean yet.
Gautham (22:27):
And that's very community-alert.
Melissa (22:29):
Yeah, what are they going to expect in the fitting
room with the mirrors?
Smart mirrors are still atearly stages of what could be
happening right, but I thinkit's really the use case and
understanding what problems,what answers are you solving?
And operational technology andexperiential technology aren't
the same either, and sometimes,instead of being seduced by the
frontward facing experientialtech, the operational technology
(22:53):
is where you could actuallydeliver more magic, which in
turn makes it a positiveexperience.
But I think often that getsunderestimated.
Paula (23:01):
So you wrote the Pop-Up Paradigm how Brands Build
Connections in a Digital Age.
What inspired you to write that?
Melissa (23:09):
Well, I wrote that when I had first started in the
early days of YNS Group, whichwas acquired by M2.
And so at the time that was ourspecialty.
It was experiential retail.
Pop-up was a common format andI over time saw so many
different use cases for thatformat starting to form and
education being needed aroundthat.
(23:30):
I thought an emerging formatthat was here to stay, and you
still see that today.
But I wanted to educate anddemystify.
Here's all the different waysthis format can work for you.
Sometimes, if you're a majorbrand and you know you just need
to show up for a short periodof time, something impactful,
limited engagement, that's a popup and I think that's what most
(23:50):
people understood pop ups to be.
But there's also theopportunity of pop up as a
prototype and there's a lot ofthings that you could test
through that format.
Because it's a shorter termcommitment Doesn't necessarily
mean that it's a marketing blip.
It might mean that you knowthat you want to expand to
certain geographies but youhaven't fully learned like
(24:11):
what's the right zip code orwhat's the right block, or how
many square feet I need, orwhat's my right layout or AB
testing merchandising strategies, and so a pop-up is a great way
to do that because you have ashorter term commitment on the
lease standpoint, but you alsohave a little bit more
forgiveness to the consumerbecause they see it as temporary
.
They give it a little bit moreforgiveness.
(24:33):
So, as you're testing anditerating those things, it's a
good format to do that.
So it was really illuminating.
There's a lot of use cases forthis.
Here are some examples.
Here are some brands that havedone it well across those use
cases, some thought provokersand then also, kind of for the
earlier stage brands, achecklist like do you at least
(24:55):
have these things in place?
Because if you don't, you'reprobably not even ready for a
pop-up.
And in the last chapter I wasteasing out the future of retail
, and that's the second book Ineed to finally sit down and
write.
But that's when I startedteasing out the opportunity of
AR and VR, 3d printing othertechnologies that would
eventually show up in retail.
Rich (25:16):
Do you ever go back to the book, look at it and say we're
very insightful and kind offorward thinking?
Do you ever go back and say andsay if I could magically
rewrite that I would?
And I just heard you say thatthere's another book that you're
going to work on.
Melissa (25:30):
Eventually I, you know I can't say I reread it often,
but I do feel confident that itwas impactful because through my
personal growth and evolutionI've had to train people that my
tagline, my trademark, is notpop-up queen, because that's
what people started calling meafter writing that and I, you
(25:51):
know, do more than that.
But no, I think it served itspurpose in just getting people
to think more holistically ofthe opportunity of that format
of retail.
But if I could write it again,I don't know, maybe I would give
more airtime to the lastchapter, because I just teased
(26:12):
it in one chapter.
But really, if it were to beforward thinking, there was so
much more I could have, I think,leaned into.
Rich (26:19):
Just gives us the opportunity for the next book.
Melissa (26:22):
One day find the time.
That's my to-do list.
Gautham (26:31):
Melissa, could I ask you a question?
You've spoken a lot aboutexperiences.
You wrote a book on pop-upswhich is about experiences.
Stores are a way to communicateyour brand, communicate what
you, what value you add to your,to your customer.
As an academic, I often wonderthis person standardization
versus each store being unique?
You've seen companies play withthis.
Where do you stand on this andtalk about flagship stores
(26:53):
versus not flagship like?
Does that even make sense?
Melissa (26:56):
yeah, I mean.
One thing I think that came outof COVID that was exciting was
there was more of a mindset towhat you're talking about.
You know a lot of brandsre-evaluated their real estate
portfolio and forced them to bea little bit more prudent about
thinking about the opportunitiesin different geographies.
So in some destinations aflagship experience is warranted
(27:19):
.
Right, it builds your brand andyou're going to think about
economics on these differentformats differently too, right.
So I would say, like Dick is agood example, dick's Sporting
Goods, because they have leanedinto more of that kind of house
of sports and this is moreflagship and it's not
necessarily about product persquare foot, it's engagement per
square foot and there's a rockclimbing wall and they partner
(27:41):
with local schools and you knowthey can play soccer on the
soccer field and you're creatinga different relationship with
the consumer with your brand.
That creates a deeper customerengagement, lifetime value.
Those people going there aren'tgoing to need something for you
every time they go, but yourbrand is going to be top of mind
and they're going to be talkingabout you and you're unlocking
(28:04):
an evangelist right around yourbrand.
I think companies aresuccessful to do that if they
also think about the halo effectof that.
Thinking of a flagship inisolation and not thinking of
your full portfolio of channelsand destinations for your
consumer is short-sighted.
But if you look at like aDick's or if you look like a
Nordstrom right, where they havemultiple formats and they
(28:27):
understand the halo effect andthe opportunity it could have to
customer lifetime value forthose who are intersecting with
their brand in all thesedifferent ways, then that's the
bigger opportunity.
So, like with Nordstrom, who isa client of ours but they
publicly share this, thecustomer who started to engage
with them in the local formatwas spending like 4x times more
with them than the customer thathadn't, because it brought them
(28:50):
closer to the neighborhood.
And so there's three differentformats, three different designs
, but it's scalable andleverageable.
And then on the second part ofyour question, like
standardization versus not, Ithink there's an opportunity,
even if you don't have all thosedifferent formats, to have
maybe 80% of your design set andleave 20% for localization so
(29:11):
you can roll out what'sstandardized.
But then you could alsoacknowledge how you're showing
up in different neighborhoods.
So it feels a little bit morepersonalized and that's your way
to kind of have a mixture ofthe two.
You know companies like FootLocker do that well.
Like if you look at how they'reshowing up in more local
neighborhoods and partneringwith muralists, or thinking
(29:32):
about how they're facilitatinglike the one in Washington
Heights became a place wherekids were going after school to
do homework.
Like think about how they'reserving the neighborhood that
way and the opportunity thereand what that signals of what
the brand is standing for andfacilitating.
It's pretty powerful.
But you have to do yourhomework to be successful there.
Like they did deep focus groups.
(29:52):
They talked to people in theneighborhood.
You know they brought in localathletes to be store managers.
Like you really still need todo your research in order to be
successful.
How you implement that.
Paula (30:04):
I want to touch back on something that you talked about,
which was your mentors.
So you said that when youstarted on Wall Street, you were
fortunate to have women thatsupported you, the guys that
were brothers to you.
You had some incredible mentorsalong the way.
Does one stand out, and whichone stands out, and why?
Melissa (30:20):
Oh, mentors.
Well, I'm always going to putmy mom on that list because
she's always been a mentor to me.
Irvay, who was my boss when Ileft Wall Street, will always be
one to me because he alwaystook the time to walk through
financial modeling with me andhelp me think about how, like a
hedge fund would think, or themutual fund, like, really took
(30:40):
the time.
I think what makes us asuccessful mentor to somebody is
one who can really help youidentify, like, the strengths
you have, help you illuminatewhere you want to go and then
help you in that gap in between,right, like a lot of the times,
I think what happens is you'retold you can't go somewhere
because you're not ready to bethere.
But the person that works withyou to get from where you are to
(31:02):
where you need to be, that'sthe gift, right.
So I would say those two.
I have another woman who we jokeshe's my friend, she's my rabbi
, she's my mentor.
She found me on Twitter, likewhen I first started Lioness,
and she was an 85 broad, whichwas a woman's group, and she was
like hey, I heard you had thiscool revolving storefront.
(31:22):
Can we talk?
I want to partner for an eventand ever since then she's just
been in so many ways somebodythat we cheer each other on for
sure.
But she's a little older thanme, she has more years of
experience and things and she'san amazing networker who's a
published author about that, soshe's been another one as well.
I was recently at a retreat forwomen as well, called Power Down
(31:46):
to Power Up, and we had activeconversations on this topic.
It was a spectrum of women whowere early in their career to
super successful, like MindyGrossman.
One person coined it this way,and it's like creating your
board of directors for your life, and I think we think companies
need board of directors.
But if you have that group inyour life and you think about
the different kind of subjectmatter expertises that you'd
(32:07):
want them to have around you, Ithink that's a great way to
always have resources andmentors and support around you
to help you kind of get throughthose challenging times and
those humps and figure out howto get to where you want to go.
Yeah, absolutely.
Paula (32:20):
So I hear a lot of diversity in the people, a lot
of diversity in proximity, andalso find good people that will
help you along and fill in thosegaps, especially at MindScience
.
Yeah for sure.
Melissa (32:33):
Yeah, and I think people want to do it too.
So most people are honored ifyou kind of approach them to be
a mentor to you.
So I don't think it's somethingto be shy about.
But the more senior the person,the more intention you should
have as you approach.
Second pet peeve but if you are, really do your research.
(32:56):
I think that says a lot to theperson that you're approaching
and understanding, like why youwant them in your life, and then
I think people are honored tobe able to fill that role.
Got them.
Gautham (33:07):
Rich, do you guys have a question to students?
Where to give?
Distill all your years ofwisdom, personal and
professional, into one advicefor students, something you wish
you had been told earlier.
What would that be, melissa?
Melissa (33:24):
Oh, be curious.
I think.
Be curious Like it's just.
It's a simple thing to say, butI think so many people aren't,
and even if you're an, a student, you still don't know
everything.
You know what I mean, and whenyou stop being curious, you stop
growing.
So just remember to always havekind of that mentality.
And that is a book I bought forsome people on my team that are
(33:47):
early in their career.
It's called the Smart Rookieand it is all about remembering
to have that mentality.
Writing the book down.
I mean, any of us could read ithonestly, because I think we
could forget to be that way atany stage in your career.
But I've had some talks and Iremember one individual might
listen to the podcast and belike you're talking about me,
(34:08):
but I'm not going to sayanything.
I saw this kind of like area ofjust being a little frustrated
and I said were you an A studentalways?
And this person replied yes andI said, OK, well, put that
behind you, because you'realways going to be probably a
type A and a top performer.
But if you're not alwayslearning, you're not always
growing, and you have to havethat mentality.
(34:29):
That's how you know what I mean.
You're going to achieve whatyou think you want.
It's not just about, like, thegrade you get.
So that person said theyenjoyed the book and I noticed
some change.
So I think that was asuccessful read.
Enjoyed the book and I noticedsome change, so I think that was
a successful read.
Rich (34:42):
It's the Walt Whitman quote.
Be curious, not judgmental,yeah.
Which a lot of people today aregoing to attribute to Ted Lasso
, but it was Walt Whitman andPaula.
Do you want me to kick off theround robin?
Paula (34:53):
the wraparound.
Melissa (34:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So are you ready to have alittle more fun, melissa?
Get a little spicy.
Yes, I'm going to hope I.
Hey, I know you shared a littlethat this is going to happen,
but let's see how fast I cananswer.
Paula (35:03):
It's yep, it's as fast as you can answer it versus the
pops in your head.
So go ahead, Rich.
Rich (35:08):
Okay.
So if you could automate onepart of your life, what would it
be?
Melissa (35:11):
Reading my email, or close his legs and scan them and
tell me what I need to know.
Rich (35:17):
AI might be doing that soon.
I'm not sure you'll like theresponses, but we'll watch.
Melissa (35:21):
I know We'll have to train it for sure.
What's the?
Gautham (35:24):
most unusual thing you bought that I bought or sold?
Oh or sold, yes or sold.
Melissa (35:31):
I should be better prepared for this one.
Unusual, unusual, unusual, Idon't know.
I may have to come back to thisone.
Rich (35:40):
It's All right.
So I'll throw you a softballand then you can come back to it
, and then I know Paula willhave one.
So you speak worldwide.
I follow your adventures.
So do you have a specific walkon song?
Usually pick one of her songs,because they're usually very
upbeat and empowering, the onesthat they choose.
Melissa (36:07):
And you know it does give a little bit about that bad
bitch energy.
I think that's nice to kind ofset the stage and it reminds me
to have fun with theconversation versus, you know,
kind of be nervous about theaudience.
I'm there to have fun with whatI'm doing.
Gautham (36:22):
Absolutely so.
Not on the list.
What do you do for fun?
Melissa (36:26):
Oh, yes, well, I feel like that's evolved.
These days Still love to.
I like to hike.
Because I say it changedbecause pre-motherhood I was
more of an adventure bunny, so Iwould have answered I used to
go scuba diving and I would goskydiving.
And answered I used to go scubadiving and I would go skydiving
and I used to have a bestfriend right around the city.
But now I hike.
(36:46):
I like to taste good wine.
I took up coaching a little bit.
Just, I was a soccer coach formy daughter.
It was the most trying meetingI had every every week that it
happened, but it was really funand rewarding to do at the same
time.
Paula (37:00):
All right, last one, best one, uh, if you're having a
dinner party, you can invite anythree people, historical or
fictional.
Who would?
Who would that be?
Melissa (37:07):
a lot of.
I think I'd have oprah.
I would like to have a sit downwith her.
I'm very curious past.
I think I'd like alberteinstein, um, especially, I
think, about innovation.
You know, I think somebody's soforward thinking, that kind of
persisted with things.
And then, third, I think first,well popped in my head, I'll
say it I think Obama.
(37:29):
I'm just curious um having satin the presidential seat like I
don't know what he could sharewith me, but I'm curious.
It would be an interestingconversation between him and
Albert Einstein and Oprah.
I don't know what we would talkabout, but I think it'd be
dynamic.
Paula (37:44):
Well, melissa, thank you so much, really appreciate you
coming on and we're justgrateful.
We'll put links to the booksthat you recommended and to your
book, and we look forward tohaving you again, hopefully in
the future, in a roundtable.
Melissa (37:56):
Yes, and when I come back I'm going to know the
weirdest thing I bought and sold.
All right, we expect thatthat's your homework.
Yeah, I'm totally going tothink about it.
Rich (38:07):
So who wants to bet that she is right now thinking about
the strangest thing that she'sever bought or sold?
Paula (38:15):
That question kind of sticks with you for a couple of
weeks.
Gautham (38:18):
Well, I'm expecting an email answer.
So what did you guys think?
Paula (38:22):
I love it when a woman makes it that far and I keep
saying that because I'm a newmother and I'm noticing more and
more how many women still dropout of corporate America.
And it's just.
I really love elevating thesevoices because it's possible to
do it all.
You do need a village.
It's not easy.
We got to keep women in theworkforce daughter.
Rich (39:03):
I'm a girl dad.
The majority of my leadershipteam are women.
I believe that I've seenstronger female leadership than
male leadership and I'm going toleave that in.
I do think, especially withwhat we're trying to achieve
here, that a constant reminderof the biases that you may not
see or that you may think thatyou shattered something, but
time and time again it comesthrough.
I'm glad you asked thatquestion and I thought the way
(39:29):
she spoke to how it made herstronger.
It made her better at what shedid because of how she traversed
the waters.
I thought was awesome.
Gautham (39:33):
Yeah, I'll say that for me, there were a couple of
points that stood out in theconversation.
First, of course, was powerful,strong women who brought me up.
I do think there is a need toelevate those voices, but what
really stood out to me was howshe took that question and
converted it into hey, here'show I would bring this.
(39:53):
It was not bringing down anyother idea, it was elevating her
point of view in a verypositive frame.
Paula (40:00):
But I agree with the comments you both made.
What I also find reallyintriguing and I loved hearing
about was her coming fromstartup and then tackling large
corporate or having both ofthose.
I can tell you that there arevery few people that can move
between those two worlds and shejust does it seamlessly.
Gautham (40:21):
She moves through a lot of worlds, I can tell Well
think about this right Financeto retail, startups, to
corporate, like it speaks to heradaptability as a person who
has a pet peeve when people sayI'm going to deploy, what
technology are you deploying?
I loved her conversation whereshe talked about you know
technology should be deployed tosolve a customer problem.
Paula (40:42):
Yeah, as a technologist.
We have thousands of clientsaround the world.
I've seen it as well right,people trying to just insert the
latest thing just because, andnot really having an end goal.
And what she said was spot onLike we have to stop and think
about how does this serve thecustomer, regardless of what
industry we're in?
How does this serve thecustomer, regardless of what
(41:02):
industry we're in?
How does this benefit thecustomer?
It's a tricky place to be, butit's so necessary to stop.
Take a beat, outline your goals, have a clear path and insert
technology that has purpose.
Rich (41:14):
I've seen too many companies that have implemented
a technology because it's thenext shiny thing and it ends up,
in many respects, doing moreharm than good.
And she is a very holisticthinker.
You can tell that.
And another thing that struckme was her research into Gen A
and Gen Z, and I think that'simportant because and the three
(41:36):
of us have talked about it youhear senior leaders often talk
about you know, this generation,this and this generation that
in order for retail to work, inorder for any industry to work,
you have to appreciate, respectand embrace diversity, and that
includes generational diversity.
You know, when we've talkedabout this, we've said we'll do
(41:58):
conversations like this with theMelissa's, but that we also
want to do roundtables when wehit a topic where we can invite
multiple guests.
Gautham (42:07):
Let's do it.
I'll sign up right now.
I'll get people in for that,that's no problem.
Paula (42:12):
Yeah, that would be a good one.
That would be a really goodtopic.
I'm on board.
Gautham (42:16):
All right, well, podcast BFFs.
This is Gotham, signing off.
Hey, my podcast BFF.
Rich (00:02):
Have you figured out?
So you don't want to sayco-hosts, are you landing on
podcast BFFs?
Gautham (00:07):
Pretty much, yeah, okay , I can relate with that, no one
called me BFF, so this isawesome.
Paula (00:13):
I'll make you charm your BFF bracelet and send it to you.
Rich (00:16):
You know it is.
I am laughing because, as muchdeliberation as we went through
as to what to call this and welanded on relates and now it's
like natural that we keep usingit in in different shows in
different ways.
Paula (00:30):
So I think it's become very relatable well, I'm excited
about melissa, first of all asa female.
Anytime we can have a woman,just inspire other women, show
the rope, show that you know awoman is made this far.
Gautham (00:43):
I'm all for that yeah, I'm excited because you know
it's not often that you seesomeone who starts off their
career in finance, moving intoretail and up to more of the
experiential aspects of retailright and an entrepreneur as
well.
So it'll be interesting to seehow that journey evolved, what
were the pivotal points in thattransformation, if you will, and
(01:05):
where she sees retail andcustomer experience heading.
Rich (01:11):
Yeah, I you know she's been a unique influence.
She sees things differently.
When many in the retail worldwere heading towards the digital
space, as this is the death ofphysical retail, she was one of
those that has always championedphysical retail and the
integration, the seamlessintegration with digital and
(01:33):
really focusing on that, whetheryou call it unified commerce or
omni-channel or just thecustomer experience.
So I'm always interested inhearing her perspective on what
is going on in the industry.
Gautham (01:45):
Well.
So I had the good fortune ofactually listening to her speak
when I was running the Centerfor Retail Transformation at
George Mason University.
You know she spoke to a wholebunch of students and it was one
of the most influentialsessions when it came to
influencing students to thinkabout retail in a different
light.
And it's not just because ofher experiences but the way she
(02:08):
presented herself in that30-minute conversation that
always stood out to me.
So I can't wait to see how thisconversation goes.
Paula (02:16):
Fantastic.
So shall we get into it,gentlemen?
Hi, melissa.
We are excited to welcomeMelissa Gonzalez to the program
today at Retail Relate.
Melissa is a principal at MG2and leads their MG2 advisory
group, where she mergesinnovative strategies with deep
industry insights to transformretail environments.
She has pioneered significantadvancements of integrating
(02:38):
physical and digital spaces formajor brands like Nordstrom and
Victoria's Secret.
Recognized as one of the top 10executives in New York City to
watch, and consistently listedamong WWD's 2025 most
influential women leaders,melissa's impact on retail
design is absolutely profound.
For those interested inexploring her extensive
contributions to the field,melissa's biography is available
(03:00):
on our show link.
So, melissa, thank you so muchfor joining us.
Yes, thank you so much forhaving me.
Melissa (03:06):
It's always nice to hear an introduction of yourself
.
Paula (03:11):
I appreciate it.
Well, you're lucky because Ionly gave the short version, so
I'm going to read your bio atanother time.
So this is where we want to getto know you a little bit more,
not your entire resume, but whatled you to where you are today.
That's what we really want toknow.
If retail relates, is whatmakes you so relatable, and also
how can other people relate toyou and get to where you're
(03:32):
going?
What were the three mostpivotal moments or points in
your career, that or life thathave led you to where you are
today?
Melissa (03:40):
Well, I started my career on Wall Street and I was
there sitting at the trainingdesk when 9-11 happened.
So I would have to say that'sprobably the first pivotal.
I knew what we had to do in themoment, but I think it was the
first time I really questionedlike, what is my bigger mission
when something so substantial ishappening around you?
And then that's when I firststarted to explore other avenues
(04:02):
outside of finance.
My second would be, I guess, 10years later, in 2009, where I
officially left finance, and Ithink the pivotal moment was I
had an amazing boss at the timewho was an incredible mentor,
who always pushed me for more.
And when I realized I was insuch an advantageous position to
have a boss like that right,who's like always pushing you to
(04:24):
be more, then my heart wasn'tthere.
So to have a boss like thatright, who's like always pushing
you to be more, but my heartwasn't there.
So it was a recognition of thatand I actually, in a meeting,
when he sat me down to promoteme, I asked him to fire me
instead.
So it was an interestingconversation.
He was in shock but supersupportive, came back to me by
the end of the day with packageand so it gave me so much runway
(04:44):
to explore what I could be.
And then I think the next, thelast and that third spectrum
would be my realization, becausewhen I left I didn't really
have a clear plan of where I wasgoing to go.
I just knew I wanted to pursuesomething a bit more creative.
Really didn't know it'd be inretail, but it was the epiphany
(05:08):
that happened that helped merealize why I enjoyed it so much
was my third, and it was thishappy kind of marriage, bringing
my business background butbeing able to always be in
creative conversations and sobeing able to have that hybrid
dynamic in my career was mythird kind of like pivotal
moment when that aha happened.
Paula (05:29):
Tell us a little bit more about that.
What?
Where you're doing now?
So you're saying you beingbeing able to merge these two
elements in your life.
What does it?
What does your day-to-day looklike?
Melissa (05:39):
I don't know.
The day-to-day though isdifferent, because I have kind
of an external role and aninternal role at our
organization, but I would saythe commonality is strategy and
innovation, whether we'rethinking that through for our
clients or how that happensinternally in the way in which
we work.
So a day to day or week to weekis a mix of that the internal
lens and the external journaland I would say for me it's
(06:02):
always being constantly curiousand kind of not just reading and
observing, but I'm alwaysthinking through what does this
mean?
What does this signify Like?
What evolution is happeningthat we need to pay attention to
?
What opportunity is thatopening up for us?
And I think I bring that frombeing on a trading desk for so
many years in the earlier partsof my career, where like
(06:24):
real-time analysis kind ofalways had to happen, because I
had news coming in at our 7 40am meeting from all of our
research analysts telling uswhat they were thinking and
asking questions.
Then you had the news going onin the background.
Then I had other people on thetrading desk.
I was on the sales side, liketalking through and we had to
make market and all this stuff.
So you always had to be quicklyabsorbing information,
(06:46):
connecting dots and findingopportunities.
And so I bring that mindset totoday.
And so I'm thinking about, youknow, overarching trends and how
consumers are evolving, howtechnology is evolving, and
trying to extract insight out ofthat.
And then working closely witheither our design teams or our
client creative teams, beingthat kind of positive agitator,
(07:10):
thinking you're like okay, howcould those learnings help us
think different?
Or pierce complacency?
Or you know, a lot of the timespeople want to evolve but an
evolution ends up being theychange a fixture, but that's not
really evolutionary.
So, taking that mindset to ourclients, to our design team, and
then also internally beingexplorative in the way in which
(07:33):
we approach the work, and Iwould say most actively now.
It's like that exploration inAI and what that's going to mean
for our industry.
Rich (07:41):
Do you have a trademark?
Positive agitator.
Melissa (07:44):
I have that could be my Melissa Gonzalez positive
agitator, trademark.
Rich (07:48):
I like it.
Melissa (07:49):
I have not.
Paula (07:51):
Yeah, that's hilarious.
I like to say positivelypersistent.
That's what I tell my bosseswhen they ask me if I can get
something done.
I'm like you would be surprisedhow you get things done when
you are positively persistent.
I'm going to ask one morequestion and then I'm going to
open it up to Gotham and Rich,but I'm curious to learn more
about you as a woman in thatposition.
So you came from Wall Street.
(08:11):
I'm envisioning a female wolfof Wall Street for some reason
in my mind and in transition tothis very detailed human-centric
role which you know Wall StreetI don't know, I've only seen
the movies, but it seems verycutthroat and to go to something
where you have to be veryempathetic and intuitive into
what the consumer wants and whatthey need.
(08:32):
So how are you able to makethat transition and how are you
able it's kind of a two parterto be such a strong woman
amongst all those men?
Melissa (08:42):
because as half the men have the call today as men yeah
.
Paula (08:47):
Yeah, but if you're a strong woman, in any field, it
doesn't matter.
They label you as a bitch.
If you're a people pleaser, Imean, you're called a doormat,
right.
So I'm curious to understandmore, and for our listeners as
well.
You know we will have a goodbit of women that are coming up.
What does that look like?
How were you able to navigatethat?
Take what you had learned, makethat transition, but also be
(09:09):
that strong female in both ofthose arenas.
Melissa (09:12):
Yeah well, I was well trained in being the female in
the arena by having fourbrothers and also starting Make
Green Wall Street.
Because Wall Street?
Because back then there was notas many women as there are
today.
I would say I was veryfortunate when I worked on Wall
Street where I didn't have asmuch of an uphill battle of how
(09:36):
do I get into the boys club.
I had really strong women withme on the desk and you did have
to learn how to navigate that alittle bit, but they were more
like big brother approaches tome too.
So I was, I was fortunate inthat aspect and I had a lot of
advocate.
But a couple of things I learnedover time is it's all about
approach.
You know.
I mean I don't think we'regonna come in close to ever
(09:59):
fully changing like the dynamicsof different genders.
We're always going to be a bitdifferent.
We're just wired different.
I see the difference, like evenat my daughter's age and eight,
at eight years old, and how shealready thinks as a female
versus a male.
So there's just some things inthat.
But I think it's it is factual.
We have to approach differentlyhow we express certain things
(10:22):
because we are given differentconnotations.
I could sit in a call with mymale counterpart, who could very
directly give somebody amessage that I find to be pretty
harsh and inappropriate, but itis well received by a man on
the other side because that'show they talk to each other.
If I delivered the message thesame exact way, yes, I'd
probably be a bitch, but I knowthat, and so, instead of being
(10:45):
bothered by it, I take theapproach of I'm smarter because
I know that and understand that,and so I'm going to deliver the
same exact message and I'mgoing to do it with finesse, and
it's going to land probablyeven more effectively.
And so it's an art a little bit, you know.
But I and I've read a lot ofbooks and I could recommend some
of those books.
(11:07):
I give those books to my teamsactually to read, depending
where they are at in theircareer path.
One is called impact player,another one's called the
multipliers, and depending whereyou're at in your career
trajectory, different books willbe appropriate, because where
you're at and what kind of teamsyou're managing Like are you
individual performer, are youmanaging teams, et cetera.
(11:33):
But I think when you can kindof open up the dialogue with
disarming the person on theother side.
You can deliver a lot moreinformation that way.
Fantastic, thank you, yeah, so Ican give you an example where I
might say hey, I want to talkto you about something, because
I know that we mutually want tobe really successful at this,
and so I have a couple of ideasthat I'd like to talk through
with you of how I think we couldmore effectively get there and
(11:54):
so open it up more that way.
So it opens up the dialoguedifferently than being like
you're doing this wrong and yousuck at this because I can't
stand it.
You know it's essentially, I'mstill saying those things, but
I'm delivering it in a differentway.
Paula (12:09):
Yeah, yeah, it's all about how you say it and I what
you said resonates with me.
Right, you've got to learn therules of the game in order to
play them, so why get upset?
At least you've got the rulebook.
A lot of people don't even getthat.
Yeah, I'm going to take a pause.
Gotham Rich.
Gautham (12:25):
It's difficult to follow up with that, but I'm
going to try and follow up onthat.
You worked in a male-dominatedindustry, right, and your
accomplishments are wide, andmany Just talk about one of
those accomplishments thatyou're most proud of and why,
right, like a lot of this is alearning experience for students
(12:46):
and future retailers.
So just give us a snippet ofhow Melissa thinks and what
makes success for you.
Melissa (12:54):
Well, I would say one of the things kind of more
recently on my journey that I'mproud of is my personal growth
as a founder who was acquired bya larger organization and
finding my way within adifferent infrastructure and
figuring out how you navigatethat forward relationships and
(13:14):
also learn a lot about in orderto grow where you have to let go
, and it's been a big learning.
But I'm proud of seeing if Ilook back and sometimes I think
it's very easy to forget to lookback at what you've achieved
and take a moment and pause andsee that, because you're always
like looking at the present andcriticizing yourself for that.
(13:37):
But if I look back from when weannounced the acquisition to
today, I personally think I'vegrown a lot in understanding.
As a founder with a certainvision, you're not always meant
to be a doer as much as you aremeant to be like a big picture
thinker who facilitates andcoaches.
And my transition of being adoer to a coach has been one
(14:01):
where I think you know I stillhave more growth there.
But when I look back, I thinkI'm proud of being able to
invest the energy I needed tounderstand how can I get to that
point, because I do think a lotof founders struggle at certain
points to grow, especiallythrough an acquisition, because
(14:21):
they can't give up certainthings.
Eventually you learn if youcan't give those things up, then
maybe you don't have the rightteam.
Gautham (14:28):
Can I double click on that question?
How do you know when to let go,right?
I mean, for all of us, that'salways a very personal challenge
figuring out when to let go ofan issue, of a project.
What's your thoughts on when,or what are your heuristics on
when to let go?
Melissa (14:46):
I think if you have the right team right, you will set
the table and you will givedirection and you can program
your check-ins.
But I'm saying to myselfespecially leaders, you're super
busy and pulled into a lot morethings and you tend to be a lot
more horizontal than vertical,and so the only way you can be
(15:08):
successful at that isrecognizing where your highest
value is.
So I try to say, okay, where'smy highest value?
If I can determine that andthen make sure I have the right
team supporting what needs to beexecuted around that, then I'm
in a position to let go Fromclient to client or project to
project.
I kind of have to still gutcheck that assessment a little
bit, but to me that's how Ilearned over time when I started
(15:32):
to go through my days.
And just because you're busydoesn't mean you're impactful.
It might just mean you're busy.
And so I was like, okay, if Ilook through my days and my
weeks, am I where I can have thebest, the most effective impact
?
If I am, then that's where Ishould be, but if I'm not, then
that's where I really should beable to let go.
Gautham (15:50):
And you do that every day.
Melissa (15:52):
I mean, I do it week to week.
I don't do it every day, butsometimes in a day I have to
rejigger my day and I'm like, doI really need to be there?
Do somebody on my team?
You don't need me, you guys gotthis, just circle back what I
need to know, and it's anexercise.
It takes practice andrepetition, I think, to more
consistently do it.
Rich (16:19):
So I wrote down obviously, professional, positive agitator
.
If there was if I'm asking youto define in three words or four
words your core expertise thatslogan or headline, what would
it be?
Melissa (16:26):
I think my expertise is the ability to listen and find
the white space opportunity.
I think listening isunderestimated, and often people
try to problem solve as soon asa conversation starts.
So I've learned the power oflistening and so I try to listen
as much as I can and thenilluminate.
(16:47):
Well, have we thought aboutthis?
Have we considered this?
I see an opportunity there.
Rich (16:51):
So take that into consumer behavior and physical retail.
You've obviously applied thoseskills.
How has consumer behaviorchanged over the course of your
career and how have you evolvedwith it?
Melissa (17:04):
Yeah, I mean so much.
I mean the consumer is savvyand savvier every day and I
think that crosses generations.
I've learned to actively studythe younger generations because
they're often the early adoptersof change and then you know it
filters through and then I tryto.
I see more and more of theinfluence that younger
(17:25):
generations have to oldergenerations.
So I'm always studying that andI think there are so many
things that would kickstart aconversation in design before
that were more how many SKUs canwe fit per square foot, and
like there's a lot of spaceplanning first and experiential
kind of followed and it'sflipped on its head a little bit
where I think experience leadsand we understand through the
(17:49):
evolution of the consumer andtechnology that the way we think
about inventory and like howmany products for Squarefoot has
different opportunities now.
So that was one major thing.
I think that the way wekickstart, the way we think of
an environment is a little bitdifferent, because the
opportunities of engagement andtechnology integration and
(18:13):
product fulfillment and endlessaisle and product fulfillment
and endless aisle they wereconversations maybe 10 years ago
, but now there's a differentfluency that the consumer has
and the way in which theyinteract with technology.
That has created a new normal,and what makes technology
integration successful is itsintuitive aspects.
(18:36):
So I'm always studying howwe're evolving, because that
changes what behaviors areintuitive to us as people and as
consumers, which changes theopportunities of how store
environments can be created andlaid out, and even the sales
team you know, the brandambassador is also too like how
they can operate and what's attheir fingertips.
Gautham (18:57):
Melissa, you talked a lot of technology integration in
this conversation and youtalked about younger generation,
right, I'm going to try anddovetail those two elements into
one question, and the questionis I see a lot of people
deploying technology for thesake of technology instead of
actually experience.
Now take it to the youngergeneration, where you've studied
(19:21):
a lot.
How do younger generationsdeploy technology and how do you
think retailers can deploytechnology for a better
experience, right, nottechnology safe?
Melissa (19:32):
For sure.
I'm always asking for the usecase and the why and where it
flows in the journey of thecustomer, because I do think a
lot of the times brands can beseduced by this is what all the
other brands are doing, or whatthey see on the swipe, and we
want to do that too.
So we always have to ask thewhy, what is it facilitating,
how is it in the journey?
(19:54):
Because then that makes itintuitive and not every brand
can answer that the same way,like I think what Nike could do
is very different than a lot ofother brands, because they have
this interactive app and theyhave this audience that's
already interacting with themthat way.
So then to connect it to thein-store experience is natural
and intuitive, right to theirconsumer.
They don't have to downloadsome new app, they're already
(20:16):
engaging that way.
So I always you know we alwayshave to think of the use case,
and the use case can't be abucket answer.
The use case can't be we wantAR, right?
Why Right?
Why?
What is it facilitating?
What problem is it solving?
What is it being additive to?
And then we do have to behonest around your internal
(20:37):
infrastructure and your abilityto keep up with the technology
and the content creation andeverything like that, because
consumers do have a higherexpectations around what those
experiences would be like.
You have to be ready in manyways.
When I studied the youngergeneration, I think it's their
fluidity, that's just the bigdifference.
It's not novel to them most ofthese things.
(20:57):
If I think of the alphageneration that we've barely
touched upon the ability tostudy because they're underage
and you can only extract so muchinformation it's not novel to
them that they can get an answerto anything they want to,
anytime, all the time.
My daughter's age everything issearch it up, search it up.
And if Alexa's not going totell her, siri's going to tell
(21:19):
her.
Anytime, all the time.
My daughter's age everything issearch it up, search it up, you
know.
And if Alexa's not going totell her, siri's going to tell
her.
And you know she can find anylyrics she wants.
She sends me she figures outhow to find TikTok videos and
YouTube videos to send me a bookshe should get for her
nine-year-old birthday party.
Like they have access toanything and they can figure it
out.
It's so intuitive.
So they're they're going tostart introducing a whole other
(21:39):
level of needs that we're goingto have to plan for, because
they're walking in the door somuch more informed and their
ability to blend the physicaland digital line.
In the moment, all the time issecond nature to them.
So that's also.
What do they, you know?
Like versus like.
If my mom, who I adore, walksin, like there's a learning
curve to that right and oh, howdoes this work and what do I
interact with there?
(22:00):
So it's different.
My daughter comes with me toCrate and Barrel, for example,
and whips out her iPad and opensup Roblox and redesigns what
she thinks her bedroom shouldlook like based on what she's
seeing in that environment inthe moment.
That's another level of howshe's actively creating and
(22:22):
thinking about, how she'sengaging with the brand.
So I don't know what that'sgoing to mean yet.
Gautham (22:27):
And that's very community-alert.
Melissa (22:29):
Yeah, what are they going to expect in the fitting
room with the mirrors?
Smart mirrors are still atearly stages of what could be
happening right, but I thinkit's really the use case and
understanding what problems,what answers are you solving?
And operational technology andexperiential technology aren't
the same either, and sometimes,instead of being seduced by the
frontward facing experientialtech, the operational technology
(22:53):
is where you could actuallydeliver more magic, which in
turn makes it a positiveexperience.
But I think often that getsunderestimated.
Paula (23:01):
So you wrote the Pop-Up Paradigm how Brands Build
Connections in a Digital Age.
What inspired you to write that?
Melissa (23:09):
Well, I wrote that when I had first started in the
early days of YNS Group, whichwas acquired by M2.
And so at the time that was ourspecialty.
It was experiential retail.
Pop-up was a common format andI over time saw so many
different use cases for thatformat starting to form and
education being needed aroundthat.
(23:30):
I thought an emerging formatthat was here to stay, and you
still see that today.
But I wanted to educate anddemystify.
Here's all the different waysthis format can work for you.
Sometimes, if you're a majorbrand and you know you just need
to show up for a short periodof time, something impactful,
limited engagement, that's a popup and I think that's what most
(23:50):
people understood pop ups to be.
But there's also theopportunity of pop up as a
prototype and there's a lot ofthings that you could test
through that format.
Because it's a shorter termcommitment Doesn't necessarily
mean that it's a marketing blip.
It might mean that you knowthat you want to expand to
certain geographies but youhaven't fully learned like
(24:11):
what's the right zip code orwhat's the right block, or how
many square feet I need, orwhat's my right layout or AB
testing merchandising strategies, and so a pop-up is a great way
to do that because you have ashorter term commitment on the
lease standpoint, but you alsohave a little bit more
forgiveness to the consumerbecause they see it as temporary
.
They give it a little bit moreforgiveness.
(24:33):
So, as you're testing anditerating those things, it's a
good format to do that.
So it was really illuminating.
There's a lot of use cases forthis.
Here are some examples.
Here are some brands that havedone it well across those use
cases, some thought provokersand then also, kind of for the
earlier stage brands, achecklist like do you at least
(24:55):
have these things in place?
Because if you don't, you'reprobably not even ready for a
pop-up.
And in the last chapter I wasteasing out the future of retail
, and that's the second book Ineed to finally sit down and
write.
But that's when I startedteasing out the opportunity of
AR and VR, 3d printing othertechnologies that would
eventually show up in retail.
Rich (25:16):
Do you ever go back to the book, look at it and say we're
very insightful and kind offorward thinking?
Do you ever go back and say andsay if I could magically
rewrite that I would?
And I just heard you say thatthere's another book that you're
going to work on.
Melissa (25:30):
Eventually I, you know I can't say I reread it often,
but I do feel confident that itwas impactful because through my
personal growth and evolutionI've had to train people that my
tagline, my trademark, is notpop-up queen, because that's
what people started calling meafter writing that and I, you
(25:51):
know, do more than that.
But no, I think it served itspurpose in just getting people
to think more holistically ofthe opportunity of that format
of retail.
But if I could write it again,I don't know, maybe I would give
more airtime to the lastchapter, because I just teased
(26:12):
it in one chapter.
But really, if it were to beforward thinking, there was so
much more I could have, I think,leaned into.
Rich (26:19):
Just gives us the opportunity for the next book.
Melissa (26:22):
One day find the time.
That's my to-do list.
Gautham (26:31):
Melissa, could I ask you a question?
You've spoken a lot aboutexperiences.
You wrote a book on pop-upswhich is about experiences.
Stores are a way to communicateyour brand, communicate what
you, what value you add to your,to your customer.
As an academic, I often wonderthis person standardization
versus each store being unique?
You've seen companies play withthis.
Where do you stand on this andtalk about flagship stores
(26:53):
versus not flagship like?
Does that even make sense?
Melissa (26:56):
yeah, I mean.
One thing I think that came outof COVID that was exciting was
there was more of a mindset towhat you're talking about.
You know a lot of brandsre-evaluated their real estate
portfolio and forced them to bea little bit more prudent about
thinking about the opportunitiesin different geographies.
So in some destinations aflagship experience is warranted
(27:19):
.
Right, it builds your brand andyou're going to think about
economics on these differentformats differently too, right.
So I would say, like Dick is agood example, dick's Sporting
Goods, because they have leanedinto more of that kind of house
of sports and this is moreflagship and it's not
necessarily about product persquare foot, it's engagement per
square foot and there's a rockclimbing wall and they partner
(27:41):
with local schools and you knowthey can play soccer on the
soccer field and you're creatinga different relationship with
the consumer with your brand.
That creates a deeper customerengagement, lifetime value.
Those people going there aren'tgoing to need something for you
every time they go, but yourbrand is going to be top of mind
and they're going to be talkingabout you and you're unlocking
(28:04):
an evangelist right around yourbrand.
I think companies aresuccessful to do that if they
also think about the halo effectof that.
Thinking of a flagship inisolation and not thinking of
your full portfolio of channelsand destinations for your
consumer is short-sighted.
But if you look at like aDick's or if you look like a
Nordstrom right, where they havemultiple formats and they
(28:27):
understand the halo effect andthe opportunity it could have to
customer lifetime value forthose who are intersecting with
their brand in all thesedifferent ways, then that's the
bigger opportunity.
So, like with Nordstrom, who isa client of ours but they
publicly share this, thecustomer who started to engage
with them in the local formatwas spending like 4x times more
with them than the customer thathadn't, because it brought them
(28:50):
closer to the neighborhood.
And so there's three differentformats, three different designs
, but it's scalable andleverageable.
And then on the second part ofyour question, like
standardization versus not, Ithink there's an opportunity,
even if you don't have all thosedifferent formats, to have
maybe 80% of your design set andleave 20% for localization so
(29:11):
you can roll out what'sstandardized.
But then you could alsoacknowledge how you're showing
up in different neighborhoods.
So it feels a little bit morepersonalized and that's your way
to kind of have a mixture ofthe two.
You know companies like FootLocker do that well.
Like if you look at how they'reshowing up in more local
neighborhoods and partneringwith muralists, or thinking
(29:32):
about how they're facilitatinglike the one in Washington
Heights became a place wherekids were going after school to
do homework.
Like think about how they'reserving the neighborhood that
way and the opportunity thereand what that signals of what
the brand is standing for andfacilitating.
It's pretty powerful.
But you have to do yourhomework to be successful there.
Like they did deep focus groups.
(29:52):
They talked to people in theneighborhood.
You know they brought in localathletes to be store managers.
Like you really still need todo your research in order to be
successful.
How you implement that.
Paula (30:04):
I want to touch back on something that you talked about,
which was your mentors.
So you said that when youstarted on Wall Street, you were
fortunate to have women thatsupported you, the guys that
were brothers to you.
You had some incredible mentorsalong the way.
Does one stand out, and whichone stands out, and why?
Melissa (30:20):
Oh, mentors.
Well, I'm always going to putmy mom on that list because
she's always been a mentor to me.
Irvay, who was my boss when Ileft Wall Street, will always be
one to me because he alwaystook the time to walk through
financial modeling with me andhelp me think about how, like a
hedge fund would think, or themutual fund, like, really took
(30:40):
the time.
I think what makes us asuccessful mentor to somebody is
one who can really help youidentify, like, the strengths
you have, help you illuminatewhere you want to go and then
help you in that gap in between,right, like a lot of the times,
I think what happens is you'retold you can't go somewhere
because you're not ready to bethere.
But the person that works withyou to get from where you are to
(31:02):
where you need to be, that'sthe gift, right.
So I would say those two.
I have another woman who we jokeshe's my friend, she's my rabbi
, she's my mentor.
She found me on Twitter, likewhen I first started Lioness,
and she was an 85 broad, whichwas a woman's group, and she was
like hey, I heard you had thiscool revolving storefront.
(31:22):
Can we talk?
I want to partner for an eventand ever since then she's just
been in so many ways somebodythat we cheer each other on for
sure.
But she's a little older thanme, she has more years of
experience and things and she'san amazing networker who's a
published author about that, soshe's been another one as well.
I was recently at a retreat forwomen as well, called Power Down
(31:46):
to Power Up, and we had activeconversations on this topic.
It was a spectrum of women whowere early in their career to
super successful, like MindyGrossman.
One person coined it this way,and it's like creating your
board of directors for your life, and I think we think companies
need board of directors.
But if you have that group inyour life and you think about
the different kind of subjectmatter expertises that you'd
(32:07):
want them to have around you, Ithink that's a great way to
always have resources andmentors and support around you
to help you kind of get throughthose challenging times and
those humps and figure out howto get to where you want to go.
Yeah, absolutely.
Paula (32:20):
So I hear a lot of diversity in the people, a lot
of diversity in proximity, andalso find good people that will
help you along and fill in thosegaps, especially at MindScience
.
Yeah for sure.
Melissa (32:33):
Yeah, and I think people want to do it too.
So most people are honored ifyou kind of approach them to be
a mentor to you.
So I don't think it's somethingto be shy about.
But the more senior the person,the more intention you should
have as you approach.
Second pet peeve but if you are, really do your research.
(32:56):
I think that says a lot to theperson that you're approaching
and understanding, like why youwant them in your life, and then
I think people are honored tobe able to fill that role.
Got them.
Gautham (33:07):
Rich, do you guys have a question to students?
Where to give?
Distill all your years ofwisdom, personal and
professional, into one advicefor students, something you wish
you had been told earlier.
What would that be, melissa?
Melissa (33:24):
Oh, be curious.
I think.
Be curious Like it's just.
It's a simple thing to say, butI think so many people aren't,
and even if you're an, a student, you still don't know
everything.
You know what I mean, and whenyou stop being curious, you stop
growing.
So just remember to always havekind of that mentality.
And that is a book I bought forsome people on my team that are
(33:47):
early in their career.
It's called the Smart Rookieand it is all about remembering
to have that mentality.
Writing the book down.
I mean, any of us could read ithonestly, because I think we
could forget to be that way atany stage in your career.
But I've had some talks and Iremember one individual might
listen to the podcast and belike you're talking about me,
(34:08):
but I'm not going to sayanything.
I saw this kind of like area ofjust being a little frustrated
and I said were you an A studentalways?
And this person replied yes andI said, OK, well, put that
behind you, because you'realways going to be probably a
type A and a top performer.
But if you're not alwayslearning, you're not always
growing, and you have to havethat mentality.
(34:29):
That's how you know what I mean.
You're going to achieve whatyou think you want.
It's not just about, like, thegrade you get.
So that person said theyenjoyed the book and I noticed
some change.
So I think that was asuccessful read.
Enjoyed the book and I noticedsome change, so I think that was
a successful read.
Rich (34:42):
It's the Walt Whitman quote.
Be curious, not judgmental,yeah.
Which a lot of people today aregoing to attribute to Ted Lasso
, but it was Walt Whitman andPaula.
Do you want me to kick off theround robin?
Paula (34:53):
the wraparound.
Melissa (34:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So are you ready to have alittle more fun, melissa?
Get a little spicy.
Yes, I'm going to hope I.
Hey, I know you shared a littlethat this is going to happen,
but let's see how fast I cananswer.
Paula (35:03):
It's yep, it's as fast as you can answer it versus the
pops in your head.
So go ahead, Rich.
Rich (35:08):
Okay.
So if you could automate onepart of your life, what would it
be?
Melissa (35:11):
Reading my email, or close his legs and scan them and
tell me what I need to know.
Rich (35:17):
AI might be doing that soon.
I'm not sure you'll like theresponses, but we'll watch.
Melissa (35:21):
I know We'll have to train it for sure.
What's the?
Gautham (35:24):
most unusual thing you bought that I bought or sold?
Oh or sold, yes or sold.
Melissa (35:31):
I should be better prepared for this one.
Unusual, unusual, unusual, Idon't know.
I may have to come back to thisone.
Rich (35:40):
It's All right.
So I'll throw you a softballand then you can come back to it
, and then I know Paula willhave one.
So you speak worldwide.
I follow your adventures.
So do you have a specific walkon song?
Usually pick one of her songs,because they're usually very
upbeat and empowering, the onesthat they choose.
Melissa (36:07):
And you know it does give a little bit about that bad
bitch energy.
I think that's nice to kind ofset the stage and it reminds me
to have fun with theconversation versus, you know,
kind of be nervous about theaudience.
I'm there to have fun with whatI'm doing.
Gautham (36:22):
Absolutely so.
Not on the list.
What do you do for fun?
Melissa (36:26):
Oh, yes, well, I feel like that's evolved.
These days Still love to.
I like to hike.
Because I say it changedbecause pre-motherhood I was
more of an adventure bunny, so Iwould have answered I used to
go scuba diving and I would goskydiving.
And answered I used to go scubadiving and I would go skydiving
and I used to have a bestfriend right around the city.
But now I hike.
(36:46):
I like to taste good wine.
I took up coaching a little bit.
Just, I was a soccer coach formy daughter.
It was the most trying meetingI had every every week that it
happened, but it was really funand rewarding to do at the same
time.
Paula (37:00):
All right, last one, best one, uh, if you're having a
dinner party, you can invite anythree people, historical or
fictional.
Who would?
Who would that be?
Melissa (37:07):
a lot of.
I think I'd have oprah.
I would like to have a sit downwith her.
I'm very curious past.
I think I'd like alberteinstein, um, especially, I
think, about innovation.
You know, I think somebody's soforward thinking, that kind of
persisted with things.
And then, third, I think first,well popped in my head, I'll
say it I think Obama.
(37:29):
I'm just curious um having satin the presidential seat like I
don't know what he could sharewith me, but I'm curious.
It would be an interestingconversation between him and
Albert Einstein and Oprah.
I don't know what we would talkabout, but I think it'd be
dynamic.
Paula (37:44):
Well, melissa, thank you so much, really appreciate you
coming on and we're justgrateful.
We'll put links to the booksthat you recommended and to your
book, and we look forward tohaving you again, hopefully in
the future, in a roundtable.
Melissa (37:56):
Yes, and when I come back I'm going to know the
weirdest thing I bought and sold.
All right, we expect thatthat's your homework.
Yeah, I'm totally going tothink about it.
Rich (38:07):
So who wants to bet that she is right now thinking about
the strangest thing that she'sever bought or sold?
Paula (38:15):
That question kind of sticks with you for a couple of
weeks.
Gautham (38:18):
Well, I'm expecting an email answer.
So what did you guys think?
Paula (38:22):
I love it when a woman makes it that far and I keep
saying that because I'm a newmother and I'm noticing more and
more how many women still dropout of corporate America.
And it's just.
I really love elevating thesevoices because it's possible to
do it all.
You do need a village.
It's not easy.
We got to keep women in theworkforce daughter.
Rich (39:03):
I'm a girl dad.
The majority of my leadershipteam are women.
I believe that I've seenstronger female leadership than
male leadership and I'm going toleave that in.
I do think, especially withwhat we're trying to achieve
here, that a constant reminderof the biases that you may not
see or that you may think thatyou shattered something, but
time and time again it comesthrough.
I'm glad you asked thatquestion and I thought the way
(39:29):
she spoke to how it made herstronger.
It made her better at what shedid because of how she traversed
the waters.
I thought was awesome.
Gautham (39:33):
Yeah, I'll say that for me, there were a couple of
points that stood out in theconversation.
First, of course, was powerful,strong women who brought me up.
I do think there is a need toelevate those voices, but what
really stood out to me was howshe took that question and
converted it into hey, here'show I would bring this.
(39:53):
It was not bringing down anyother idea, it was elevating her
point of view in a verypositive frame.
Paula (40:00):
But I agree with the comments you both made.
What I also find reallyintriguing and I loved hearing
about was her coming fromstartup and then tackling large
corporate or having both ofthose.
I can tell you that there arevery few people that can move
between those two worlds and shejust does it seamlessly.
Gautham (40:21):
She moves through a lot of worlds, I can tell Well
think about this right Financeto retail, startups, to
corporate, like it speaks to heradaptability as a person who
has a pet peeve when people sayI'm going to deploy, what
technology are you deploying?
I loved her conversation whereshe talked about you know
technology should be deployed tosolve a customer problem.
Paula (40:42):
Yeah, as a technologist.
We have thousands of clientsaround the world.
I've seen it as well right,people trying to just insert the
latest thing just because, andnot really having an end goal.
And what she said was spot onLike we have to stop and think
about how does this serve thecustomer, regardless of what
industry we're in?
How does this serve thecustomer, regardless of what
(41:02):
industry we're in?
How does this benefit thecustomer?
It's a tricky place to be, butit's so necessary to stop.
Take a beat, outline your goals, have a clear path and insert
technology that has purpose.
Rich (41:14):
I've seen too many companies that have implemented
a technology because it's thenext shiny thing and it ends up,
in many respects, doing moreharm than good.
And she is a very holisticthinker.
You can tell that.
And another thing that struckme was her research into Gen A
and Gen Z, and I think that'simportant because and the three
(41:36):
of us have talked about it youhear senior leaders often talk
about you know, this generation,this and this generation that
in order for retail to work, inorder for any industry to work,
you have to appreciate, respectand embrace diversity, and that
includes generational diversity.
You know, when we've talkedabout this, we've said we'll do
(41:58):
conversations like this with theMelissa's, but that we also
want to do roundtables when wehit a topic where we can invite
multiple guests.
Gautham (42:07):
Let's do it.
I'll sign up right now.
I'll get people in for that,that's no problem.
Paula (42:12):
Yeah, that would be a good one.
That would be a really goodtopic.
I'm on board.
Gautham (42:16):
All right, well, podcast BFFs.
This is Gotham, signing off.
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