September 19, 2024 • 44 mins
What if retail could be more than just a job? Join us on Retail Relates as we chat with Ron Thurston, co-founder of Ossy and best-selling author of Retail Pride, to uncover the secrets of turning a retail career into a passion-driven journey. Ron's inspiring stories, from pioneering showrooming at Bonobos to redefining field leadership at Apple, provide invaluable insights for anyone eager to learn from a true industry innovator. Discover how emotional connection, empathy, and authentic leadership can transform not just your career but the entire retail experience.
We dive into the philosophy of strengths-based leadership, stressing the importance of leveraging individual talents over correcting weaknesses. Ron sheds light on how empathy, curiosity, and focus can create effective leaders in the chaotic retail environment. We also discuss how AI is revolutionizing retail by automating mundane tasks, freeing up more time for meaningful customer interactions and team engagement. It’s all about finding joy in your work and working for companies that recognize and value your strengths.
Finally, we explore the profound impact of building authentic retail connections and the vital role of trust between frontline employees and corporate leadership. Ron's journey across the country, living in an RV and meeting proud retail workers, emphasizes the essential role retail plays in communities, especially in smaller towns. We wrap up with a fun rapid-fire segment, revealing Ron's personal favorites and celebrating the joy of a retail career. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom and practical advice for anyone passionate about retail.
Ron's Biography:
Ron Thurston's life mission is to celebrate, elevate, and empower the people and spirit of the retail industry. His passion is evident in his over three decades of experience leading retail stores and operations for top American brands such as Gap, West Elm, Apple, Tory Burch, Bonobos, and Saint Laurent. Most recently, he served as Vice President of Stores at Intermix, where he honed an extensive skill set in retail strategy, management, and innovation.
Ron is not just a retail leader but also the bestselling author of "Retail Pride," an indispensable guide for accelerating careers in retail. With over 25 years of leadership experience with prominent fashion brands, he brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise. He is consistently recognized as one of the most influential people in the retail industry. As the host of the RETAIL IN AMERICA podcast and tour, Ron traveled across the nation in an Airstream trailer during 2022 and 2023 to uncover and highlight remarkable stories and individuals in retail. He also serves on the advisory boards of rapidly growing retail tech companies, including Ometria, Butterfly, and YOOBIC, lending his expertise to drive their success. He gives back as a Goodwill NY/NJ board of directors member.
In 2024, Ron co-founded OSSY, a forward-thinking retail recruiting agency that addresses the industry's hiring and recruiting challenges. This venture reinforces Ron’s unwavering commitment to retail.
Follow Ron at: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rthurston/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Paula (00:00):
Today on Retail Relates, we're excited to have Ron
Thurston, co-founder OSSY andand best-selling author of
Retail Pride.
Ron shares his remarkablejourney from pioneering the
concept of showrooming withBonobos to redefining field
leadership with Apple, and hisunique insights into why retail
remains a human-centric,emotionally-driven experience.
You want to stay tuned to hearmore about Ron's journey
(00:20):
coast-to-coast, engaging withfrontline retail at all levels.
Get ready to dive deep intowhat makes retail a truly
dynamic career path, and here'ssome great stories along the way
.
Now let's get in my podcastBFFs, rich and Gotham, rich,
gotham.
What do you guys think?
Gautham (00:35):
I'll kick this off.
Ron is somebody I've known forseveral years.
What I am excited about is he'salways been very positive and
uplifting Like I've not seen asingle conversation of him that
I've had with him where hehasn't figured out a way to
frame it in a positive way.
So I look forward to this inthe sense that I do think retail
(00:57):
needs to hear that perspectiveright.
We talk about frontlineemployees and all the challenges
that they face, but I thinkwhat I'm excited about is how
Ron will probably frame it inthe context of the positive
things that they do for thecompany and how they represent
the brand.
Rich (01:13):
Yeah, and I'll make a confession.
When I've known Ron for acouple of years, after he wrote
the book, I was reading some ofthe things that he was writing
and I love the fact that he waspromoting retail.
The confession is, I didn'treally associate it with the
things that he was writing and Ilove the fact that he was
promoting retail.
The confession is, I didn'treally associate it with the
fact that he was promotingfrontline retail.
I was looking at it in retailin general and then when he and
(01:34):
I had the opportunity to have aconversation including Gotham,
we went to dinner that night ithit me that he was really
promoting frontline retail and Iwill admit that it shifted my
own perspective, having startedin the stores and having that
feeling that it wasn't a careeruntil I had made it into
headquarters and after spendingtime with Ron, it hit me that
(01:56):
that's kind of the wrong thingto look at, and so I love the
fact that he's championing itand I can't wait to get into
that a little bit more with him.
Paula (02:02):
Well, welcome, Ron Thurston, to Retail Relates.
We are so excited and sohonored to have you here.
So Ron Thurston is theco-founder of OSSY best-selling
author of Retail Prime and hismain areas of expertise are
retail field leadership and teamadvocacy.
So Ron Thurston is a dedicatedretail leader with over three
decades of experience with topAmerican brands like Gap.
(02:24):
West Elm Apple, Tory Burch,Bonobos and St Lawrence.
As the best-selling author ofRetail Pride, he offers
invaluable guidance onaccelerating retail careers.
Ron has held key roles,including vice president of
stores at Intermix and hostedthe Retail in America podcast,
traveling nationwide tohighlight remarkable retail
(02:46):
stories.
In 2024, he co-founded OSSY, aretail recruiting agency
addressing industry hiringchallenges.
Ron also serves on advisoryboards for retail tech companies
and the board of directors forGoodwill New York, new Jersey.
Ron, it is an absolute honor tohave you here.
Thank you for joining us atRetail Relates.
Ron (03:06):
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Paula.
It's a very generousintroduction and you can tell
I'm a busy, proud guy to be inthis industry.
Excellent.
Rich (03:15):
So Paula embarrassed you a little bit with your resume and
we'll have the broader resumeon the site.
But one of the questions thatwe like to start off with is if
you think about what got you tothis moment, can you give us
three pivot points that happenedthroughout your career,
throughout your life thatbrought you to where you are
right?
Ron (03:36):
now.
Thanks, rich.
I think I just turned 60 andyou and I actually had some back
and forth about how that feels,and you do spend time maybe in
those milestone birthdaysreflecting on like where did I
make good decisions?
Where did I pivot?
Where did I maybe turn leftwhen I maybe thought I was going
(03:59):
to turn right, all of it?
So if I think about that,question number one would be
writing Retail Pride.
There's no question about that,that that book changed my life
and the intention around writinga book.
That really was the first bookever written specifically for
the front lines of retail.
The intention was not to changemy life.
(04:20):
It was to provide language andconfidence and support to travel
the country and speak to teamsto be able to really change the
(04:48):
dynamic of what it means to workin the front lines of retail,
whether you're just joining orwhether you've been doing it for
30 years, and the amount ofinbound that I get still to this
day in books spent out threeand a half years about how the
book changed their life is allthat I needed to do.
So writing the book was numberone and in 2014, I moved to New
(05:12):
York City for Bonobos, as Paulamentioned, which at the time was
a very small brand in theretail landscape.
I was very happy, living in LA,I was a regional manager for
Tory Burch and I had not reachedthis kind of director VP level
in my career yet, at the age of50.
And I said you know what?
(05:32):
I'm going to take this risk.
I don't know what this is goingto become.
I'm going to move across thecountry and I'm going to build
something that I think hassignificant potential to change
the entire industry and I wasvery grateful for the
opportunity and it's exactlywhat it did.
(05:52):
Bonobos really was at theforefront of what we called it
showrooming at the time.
Like the trends in languagehave changed, but this idea of
how do you create a retailconcept that is best in class
and not sell anything, what doesthat mean to the customer?
What is a real retailexperience about?
(06:13):
And it's about emotionalconnection.
And Bonobos gave me the chanceto create that in four walls and
a high level of service,because you're not buying
anything, so the only thing youcan do is provide service.
So the the concept of thatchoice for me going from a very
large brand to a very smallbrand uh, was a pivot that, uh,
(06:36):
I feel like at the time was verymuch the right choice and still
today I would say in the thethird, I'd say the third one
would be in 2008,.
I joined Apple after having beena multi-store regional manager
for many years, running hundredsof stores.
(06:56):
I joined Apple and Apple askedme to run one store and said we
don't hire multi-store leaders.
If you're going to work here,you have to come in and show us
that you know how to run a store.
And at the time that seemedvery strange from a career
explaining my experience, likewhat do you mean?
I have to run one store.
Well, running one Apple storeis like running a company, so
(07:20):
hundreds of employees, millionsof dollars generated a month.
But the pivot was really how doI learn an entirely new business
model and really enhance myskill set and think about
another Again?
This was a time when Apple wasreimagining retail and I wanted
I would have been there at anycost.
(07:41):
So, even though I had to reallythink about my level of
responsibility and what thatlooked like on paper, it was a
choice I made because I was notgoing to let, at the time, the
most innovative company in theworld retail, that I was not
going to be part of that.
Whatever I had to do, I wantedto be part of it.
So I think those are three.
(08:02):
There are probably 15 more.
Paula (08:03):
That's remarkable.
So you went from macro to microto just everything in between
and at the forefront of whatBonobos started.
I mean, I remember verydistinctly in Dallas.
It is revolutionary because itwas the first of its kind to not
sell anything, experiment,experiential, and now that's
more common, right.
Really, this whole scope inyour expertise in retail.
Ron (08:26):
Thank you.
I think part of that's also,paula, an intention around a
career in this industry, and youthink about students and you
think about people that arejoining this.
We have a tendency, as a fieldleadership industry, to not
manage our career the way peoplein corporate do, and because
(08:47):
it's not a linear path.
So what I wanted to do once Ifigured out I was good at this,
like then, where do I need to be?
What do I need to do in orderto move my skill set forward?
Ultimately, I want to have thisjob.
What do I have to do to getthere?
And I don't think that that'salways a common conversation,
(09:07):
because it means changingcompanies often, and that's
something that I think can bereally scary and this kind of up
down across.
Paula (09:16):
Was retail accidental for you?
Because you've been sointentional and you sound so
like you knew this is what youwanted.
So what would you?
Was it expensive for you?
And if it was, what would yoube doing if it wasn't retail?
Ron (09:29):
I love this question because it's like yes, yes and
no.
So all I knew as a 16 year old17 year old is that I wanted to
work in this business, but Ididn't know what I wanted to do.
And I come from a family Iwrite a little bit about in
Retail.
Pride of my grandfather was theCEO of a construction company
(09:49):
that built grocery stores, builtall the Safeway stores on the
West Coast, and so I had a largecompany in construction and all
I knew I said I didn't want tobe in construction, but I wanted
to be something to do withretail, fashion, and the only
school on the West Coast thattaught that was it's called the
Fashion Institute of Design andMerchandising.
My only intention was I need, Iwant to spend the least amount
(10:13):
of time in school in order to goto work and that again maybe
controversial.
But I got a two-year degree inretail administration from that
school and I got a two-yeardegree in fashion design and
that's it.
And I said, okay, I know enoughabout retail and I know enough
about construction, design,fashion, to somehow create a
career.
(10:33):
And so my first part, first six,seven years of my career, was
in fashion design.
I was a pattern maker, I was adesign room manager, I was the
designer of a couple ofdifferent brands and I'm like,
okay, I learned this part, Now Iwant to learn the retail part.
And then, once the retail partstarted, I joined Gap Kids at
the time, in early 2000s andlate 90s actually.
(10:55):
Once that started, I never leftretail again.
I found my real love.
Yet 30 something years later Iwas working in luxury fashion
and all of that knowledge abouthistory, construction,
fabrication, fit, all of thatactually serves me really well
because I can sell anything toanyone, because I understand how
(11:17):
it works.
So ultimately it was sort ofaccidental, but this is an
industry I had every intentionof working in.
Paula (11:26):
It also leaves room for other people, right?
People listening to know thatit's okay to go in it
open-minded but also knowing.
Well, I want to do retail, butnot exactly what, but I know
that I'll be okay.
Right, it gives us theconfidence to hear from you that
that's an okay path and an okayway to think.
So thank you for sharing that.
And it's often said thatfailure is a better teacher,
(11:49):
right?
We always talk about successesand you have like a litany of
successes.
Just the brands alone thatwe've named are just incredible.
Anyone would aspire to just one, and you've worked at multiple,
multiple, just aspirationalbrands.
So failure is often a betterteacher than successes.
Is there any lesson that youlearned from failure that you
would like to share with ouraudience as a way of learning?
Ron (12:11):
It's funny, paula, because I spend very little time
thinking about these things.
I'm always, and I don't and I'msaying that in reference to how
I lead I spend very little time.
I have spent very little timeas a leader on your performance
evaluations, talking about youropportunities.
I am very much one that sayswhat do you do well, what do you
(12:33):
want to be famous for, where doyou make the greatest impact?
And let's utilize andcapitalize on all of that first,
not what do you not do well,what did you make mistakes in,
and let's try to fix those.
I spend very little time inthat headspace.
So, to answer your question, Idon't really have one, because
(12:57):
I've always thought about thisidea of where am I winning and
how can I win more.
It's a mental place that I putmyself of not drowning to going
too deep into the failure andmore about not just celebrating
the win but recognizing why youwon.
Paula (13:12):
Yeah, and how did you Coaching your strengths based
leadership?
Right, it's your strengths.
Ron (13:18):
It's exactly right, it's, and so even in being asked to
write performance reviewsutilizing that kind of language,
I really push back on it.
I'm like I'm not.
We're not going to sit here andtalk about the things you don't
do.
Paula (13:31):
Well, what has been your biggest strength then?
Ron (13:34):
I believe when people describe my leadership, it's, I
would say empathy is a little,but I write in retail pride,
empathy, curiosity and focus.
I write about them as thepillars of success, but they're
actually my own reflection of myown success.
The idea of leading withcuriosity but at the same time,
(13:58):
having the ability to focus myenergy and focus the attention
where it needs to be to move theresults forward is a very
unique skill I've discoveredbecause often retail is so chaos
driven and it's new every day,and so it's actually really hard
to predict what's going tohappen.
When you come in in the morningand unlock the front door, you
(14:21):
have no idea what's about tohappen.
It's very different thanworking in the office, but
someone's ability, where chaosis being thrown at you all day,
to focus your energy is, I think, a skill that has led much to
my success.
I've learned how to deliver theresults that you need to deliver
by being very empathetic andvery curious about how to do it
(14:43):
and deliver the results.
I've always been do it anddeliver the results.
I've always been someone thatcould deliver the results and
that feels good to be able tosay that and and and unique and
a unique balance of skills.
It sounds like a job interview.
I'm not even.
I'm not.
Rich (14:59):
I'm not working.
Isn't everything a jobinterview from time to time,
maybe it is.
Ron (15:04):
I do all day, every day, it's what I do.
Gautham (15:08):
Ron, I'm going to ask a question that piqued my
interest in the way you framedit.
You figured out when you weregood at it.
For someone who's starting.
For many people it's always achallenge to figure out when
you're good at something rightand when it is to pack up the
bags and move on to greenerpastures.
(15:29):
Is there any guidance that youcan give for that from your?
Ron (15:34):
illustrious career.
Yeah, I think those moments inour careers where we recognize
that we don't just find joy init, and that you kind of go home
and you're like, wow, I workedreally hard today, I'm so tired,
but I love what I do and can'twait to go back and do it
tomorrow, I think those momentsor you recognize your ability to
(15:56):
deliver results.
I mean, you have to face thefact that retail is not a
nonprofit.
And while I talk all day aboutemotions and coaching and
managing through people, if youdon't deliver the results that
the company is expecting you todeliver, you will not be
successful.
And so once you discover thatyou actually have the ability to
(16:16):
both love what you do and berecognized for it and deliver,
then you say you know, I'mactually good at this, I'm good
at this and I want to do more ofthis.
And then the next step in thatjourney is then find the place
to work that celebrates andrecognizes you for that.
At that particular time, everycompany goes through arcs of
(16:37):
when they're really good at this.
When I talk about being curious, it's also about studying the
industry, reading as much as youcan about what brands are doing
, who they're hiring, who's ontheir board of directors, who's
in the C-suite?
How many women are in theC-suite?
Pay attention to these things,because it showcases.
Is this a place where I want towork right now?
Rich (16:59):
So that's going to allow me to pivot into a conversation
about retail as a career.
So we're at an interestingcrossroads.
With AI and technology, there'sthe discussion of how much
labor is that going to replaceand at the same time, we are
trying to convince more peopleto consider retail as a career
(17:21):
and really the 360 degree view,which includes being customer
facing.
How do companies, how shouldcompanies, face that challenge
today?
Ron (17:32):
So I think there's several things there, rich.
So number one is the retailenvironment is inherently human
centric.
The purpose of a retail storeis to create an emotional
reaction and an emotionalconnection to your brand.
Otherwise, you can Just buy iton a website.
(17:52):
The purpose of the store, then,is inherently human, and so
when I think about AI, I thinkabout this idea of what can it
support?
How can it support my work?
To provide time to give me backto my team and my customer, and
a lot of that can be in dataanalysis.
It can be in inventorymanagement.
There's a lot of statisticaldata that maybe I was doing
(18:15):
manually that now can be donevia AI to give me more time back
in my day to be great at beinga human.
And that's what I love aboutretail is that you actually
can't replace this emotion.
You can't take me out of theequation in a retail environment
.
We can generate AI when itcomes to visual merchandising,
where to put it but it requireshumans to actually, particularly
(18:38):
in many product categories, tomake it beautiful, to storytell,
to share the emotions that youhave and the history behind it,
and all of that requires us tobe at our best.
This idea of a career in retailis not only frontline.
It is about customeracquisition, about building
(18:59):
business, it's about loyalty,brand and it's the greatest
expression of any company.
Is what is the retailexperience?
I love the conversation aboutthe difference between how AI
can impact retail and how humanswill always be the greatest
asset to it.
Rich (19:17):
How do you think retailers should improve their recruiting
efforts to try and gain themost diverse talented
individuals that they can,especially if retail is such an
accidental career for many of usthat wind up in it?
Ron (19:31):
The interesting part about that question is that the most
diverse part of any organizationI've worked for is the field,
and so this we are actuallynaturally diverse by how we
recruit and hire.
We always dominate in thepercent of women that are in the
organization.
It's always higher in the field.
(19:51):
The percent of people of colorare always.
It's always higher in the field.
The percent of people of colorare always always higher in the
field.
So we we naturally do thatbecause it's just who we are.
Where there's intention behindthat is.
You know, maybe I need someonewith a specific skillset in this
product category.
Maybe I need someone thatspeaks a specific language,
because a large percentage of mycustomers speak this language.
(20:13):
There are certainly ways toaddress how can I be best in
service to the people walking inthe store today?
What does my team need to be?
You see it often organically,but there can also just be
strategy behind what's missingfrom the experience that I want
to deliver to my customers everyday, and I love the fact that
(20:34):
the store side of any company isalways more diverse.
Yeah, we don't really celebratethat.
I think we sometimes overthinkall the qualifications and all
the diversity and all of it oflike hire people who love people
.
The rest of it will come withyou.
Rich (20:51):
I love that answer.
Do you and without namingorganizations either that you've
worked for, that you've seen?
I've seen a lot oforganizations where there's this
tension between headquartersand the field.
How much have you seen that andhow can retailers solve that
equation or that divisivenessthat can happen?
Ron (21:10):
One of the fun slash, challenging things that I get to
do now when I'm on the otherside of the table, is go to
almost every retail conferenceand be on stage and almost
always the audience.
Now, unless it's a conferencespecifically for store leaders,
the audience is always corporateand it could be a marketing
conference.
It could be a store.
(21:31):
I was at a store operationsconference last week.
There are always headquartersteams.
Once in a while you'll meetsomeone that came from the field
.
Their overwhelming response tothings that I speak about is oh
my gosh, I love the field.
I love to go and speak to theteams.
They give me the most amount ofenergy.
I love talking to stores and myresponse to that is then go do
(21:52):
that.
Because when I'm in stores andI ask the questions of who's
coming in, what are they askingyou?
It's almost always.
Nobody ever comes.
That is from traveling thecountry speaking to all kinds of
different sizes of retailers,the brands that do this
consistently.
Well, it's a pretty short list,and when I say well, I don't
(22:12):
mean just New York City, la,miami, it's all across the
country, in small towns and bigcities.
Spend time in the field.
Ask the questions they have themost insight about your
customer that you'll ever wantto know.
I think sometimes it's flexiblework schedules and a lot of
things are obstacles to gettinginto stores.
But I met a gentleman at aconference I was at a few weeks
(22:35):
ago in Dallas who runs racetrack, which is a big fuel stations
and as someone that lives in anRV I know racetracks.
He runs all store operations Ithink.
They have 600 locations.
They spend at a minimum twodays a week in the field his
entire team.
That's their standard procedureand they divide and conquer the
(22:55):
country.
They have high turnover andthey have their own challenges
in that space.
But he was so plugged into howthe field was feeling and about
what they could do better at thesmaller headcount.
Often in corporate environmentstoday is preventing brands from
doing this and line atracetrack and that it does come
down to how you're taking careof the customer in front of you
(23:40):
regardless of the structure, andthere definitely is that
leadership aspect.
Rich (23:45):
I guess my follow-up to that would be having led field
teams and having led store teams.
What strategies do you use inorder to maintain morale, keep
people engaged, especially whenyou have high traffic times,
organizational changes or justeven a downturn in business,
which is going to happen throughcycle?
Ron (24:04):
I think Rich, this idea of high levels of communication
about exactly what's going on inthe company, in the industry,
in your product categories, themore you share.
In a way, I believe that'seducational.
It brings people along on thejourney.
How you bring people along onthe journey is this kind of
(24:26):
sense of we are here, we'recommunicating, we're sharing the
details, we're celebrating thewins, we're looking for the
opportunities to do better.
We are always with you side byside.
And there are brands severalbrands I've seen that have
changed this idea of corporateor headquarters into support
(24:46):
centers.
We're here in service to thefield.
I hear that language and thatis a really positive way for the
field to feel like you're inservice to us.
We are, as a field organization, standing in front of a
customer, but I know that behindme I have a group of people
that are in service to me and ifyou can do that, then you're
winning and people will doanything they can to deliver the
(25:09):
results if you can create thatemotion.
I've walked into an organizationas a leader and said we're not
communicating enough, we're notputting everybody on Zoom and
talking about things, we're notsharing enough in the good and
the bad.
Let's just put it all out thereand then all of us together can
move this organization forward.
(25:29):
But it requires everyone toagree on that strategy and
there's a lot of old habits oflike well, don't share the P&L
with the store because theyshouldn't know how much rent
we're paying.
And I just believe we live in atime where more information
helps us be better at what we doand it creates this level of
commitment and trust that canreally change the trajectory of
(25:50):
a company.
If people again and she reallychanged the trajectory of a
company If people again knowthat you trust them and you are
in service to them, that's anemotion that you can't replace.
Rich (26:05):
I have to ask have you trademarked in service of, and,
if you have, can I pay you aroyalty for it, because I want
to start using that for ourheadquarters?
Ron (26:13):
You're welcome to it, Rich.
Welcome to it, Rich.
You're welcome to it.
It's as much of a.
I think it's a mindset morethan a phrase, because it's your
actions actually demonstrate ifyou are in service or not.
Rich (26:24):
I was going to say.
I've always been given theadvice If your company culture
boils down to the phrase on aposter, go start from scratch.
Ron (26:31):
It's true, because that's how you show up and what you do.
You know, and I think, in manyways, there are a lot of people
and a lot of brands who arestill recovering from how they
treated the field in 2020.
I think that we are stillrecovering from that versus
(26:51):
field divide.
Gautham (26:52):
Let me start with that question right, and I'm a
data-driven person.
I honestly believe that peoplewho are in the frontline have
the greatest amount of data onhow customer preferences are
changing.
What are the issues withcompanies?
What are the opportunities thatare untapped or yet to be
tapped?
Do you see companies where theinformation flows upwards, and
(27:16):
how can companies actuallyempower frontline employees to
be truly the face of theorganization?
Ron (27:24):
I think first, gautam, is trust.
If you are in service to thefield, they trust you, and that
if you're going to put in theeffort to share everything that
you've heard, that you'velearned, that you're
experiencing, if you trust wherethat information is going, then
you're more likely to share it.
(27:44):
And so what I also say often tocorporate audiences is that I
want you to be in the field andI want you to spend time and ask
questions.
Spend time and ask questions,but if you go back to the office
and do nothing about thatinformation, you have actually
done more damage than youintended to do.
Because it feels really goodfor the C-suite to visit a store
(28:04):
and ask a lot of questions andask for feedback and everyone
shares it, and you have muffinsand coffee and everybody leaves
happy and high-fiving you.
Three months later, you askyour district manager what
happened and they're like, oh, Idon't know, I never heard
anything.
The next time you ask, thefield's going to be like, yeah,
I don't know, I haven't reallyheard anything this week.
I think that's a unique skillthat leaders have that I tried
(28:25):
to do.
If I spent a week traveling inthe field, the first thing I
would do would be.
Here's what I learned.
Thank you for sharing.
Here's what I learned.
Here's what I heard, and here'swhat we're going to take action
on immediately.
And here's some things that weactually can't do, and here's
why.
And so if they understand whythat could be next year, but if
you just do nothing with all ofthis information, then you've
(28:49):
wasted your time.
Gautham (28:50):
I want to keep one more question, a real short question
.
You've used the word emotion,probably the most I've heard
anyone use, and I love it,because I do think retail is
about human connections.
How can companies buildlifelong human connections?
You're able to connect for aperiod of time and then it seems
to erode at best.
How do companies build it?
(29:11):
And you've done it across bigcompanies, small luxury versus
not so luxury yeah, what's thesecret.
Ron (29:17):
uh, I think I would challenge you on like for life.
I would say I want to create anemotion that will live with you
, maybe for the next few days,and that's okay, because the
speed at which we live life ifyou created an incredible
emotional connection, you willtell several people in the next
72 hours what happened and afterthat it dies off.
(29:38):
And so I actually think that weover strategize and over expect
people to build these lifelongconnections.
Build a connection that feelsright for at this moment today.
Great point, that's it.
Great point, yeah.
Paula (29:52):
It sounds a lot like you're talking about
authenticity.
Ron (29:55):
I would say authenticity, transparency.
Being very authentic is part ofbeing empathetic.
Paula (30:01):
And talking about the world and authenticity and
leadership, I know you've hadseveral mentors in your life and
advisors along the way.
Is there one that stands out?
Ron (30:11):
Paul.
So I dedicated retail pride tomy grandfather.
I mentioned him earlier,no-transcript.
(30:42):
I would watch him walk onto ajob site and the guy started
traveling with him in thesummers, you know, as a high
school student.
And so I'd watch him walk ontoa job site of like a hundred
construction workers and hewould know all their names, he
would know things about them, hewould know about their family.
He would be extremely gratefuland humble, and so I just
(31:04):
watched that in action.
I didn't even know what I waswitnessing, but pretty soon I'm
like that's who I want to be.
I have really tried to emulate,because he was highly respected
.
Paula (31:13):
That level of personalization too right.
I mean it matters when you knoweveryone's name and know the
difference in where they're at,and not just knowing it but
carrying back to authenticity.
Ron (31:24):
Yeah, that's exactly what it is, because if you're not
curious, again empathy andcuriosity kind of where we
started.
If you're not curious, then youcan't lead with empathy.
It's a very powerful skill Idon't actually see very often,
so I really did try to do thatin my career.
Rich (31:41):
Ron, that's fantastic.
One of the things that we wereasked to do as we started to
record this podcast.
We are using it as a way totalk to college students, those
emerging in their career,whether it's retail or not,
those in frontline retail, totalk more about the
opportunities that exist, andone of the suggestions that was
(32:02):
made by the students that I hadis get more students involved in
the podcast.
So we have invited one todayand I'm going to introduce her
quickly and she may have one ortwo questions for you.
Liliana (32:14):
So if you can go ahead and introduce yourself, Hi Ron,
I'm Liliana and I go to GeorgeMason.
Hi Hi, I read your book RetailPride and I absolutely love it
and I think that there are manyinteresting lessons in your book
.
With this, I have two questions.
One I'm currently working at afrontline retail job and how
(32:34):
would I be able to turn thisinto like an actual career?
Ron (32:37):
No thanks, lily.
I'll give you a couple ofstatistics which I think are
helpful.
Students at the National RetailFederation just released some
of this.
So, on average, stay with.
Within the retail industry, youwill change roles about every
14 months and that, in my mind,is one of the reasons that you
kind of stick with it and yousay you know I really love what
(32:59):
I do.
We talked about on this episodeof finding the joy in it and
then recognizing your skills andstick to it.
I think there's endlessopportunities across all kinds
of product categories, storetypes and businesses and those
skills translate into endlessopportunities.
Liliana (33:19):
That is one of the best answers I've ever heard.
Thank you so much for youradvice.
Thank you With my secondquestion.
I've heard that you've traveleda lot and everything.
You talked a tiny bit about itearlier.
What did you love most abouttraveling around the country for
Retail Pride?
Ron (33:37):
I'd say number one is seeing.
You know, living in campgroundsgives you this sense of the
natural beauty of this country.
So that's number one.
I've spent my career flying allover this country, visiting
every mall and every stripcenter.
I feel like my only knowledgeof this country was where the
mall is.
And to then actually live in anRV for over a year, live in
(34:00):
campgrounds, find the naturalbeauty, that was number one.
I think number two is theopportunity to meet people that
I would never have been able tomeet.
When you live in a major citylike I was living in New York
City at the time there arecultures and people and a lot of
communities that I didn't evermeet anyone from and they never
(34:21):
met anyone like me.
So I think that there's thissense of divisiveness and that
we all kind of live in our ownseparate walls.
We don't cross over when youlive in an RV park and your
neighbors change every dayBecause someone's moving in,
someone's moving out and likewho are you, where are you from,
what do you do?
Like, why are you living in anRV?
(34:41):
You meet the most interestingpeople and I love that about
that life and I will absolutelydo that again.
And third is meeting such proudpeople who work on the front
lines of retail all over thecountry.
I spent time in Walmart.
I spent time in small brands.
I spent time in family-ownedcompanies Walmart, I spent time
(35:02):
in small brands.
I spent time in family-ownedcompanies, very small towns
where it was like one grocerystore and wanted to meet the
team.
There's retail is everywhere.
It doesn't get.
Often the appreciationparticularly in smaller cities,
where it serves a very importantpurpose to a small city is when
the one grocery store is closedor Walmart doesn't open, no one
has anywhere else to shop.
(35:22):
So there's this appreciation ofthe role that retail plays in
the world that you can only getif you live there.
So it's a long answer to yourquestion, lily, but there were a
lot of lessons, endless amountsof lessons.
Liliana (35:36):
Thank you so much.
And yeah, even if there are alot of lessons, I do think that
each and every one is just asimportant as the other.
You're welcome.
Thank you so much.
Paula (35:45):
All right, so let's get to the fun part, the grilling
the.
You know we have caricatures ofeach one of us in a red seat,
so this is your red seat moment.
Are you ready?
I'm ready, oh boy All right, sosay the first thing that comes
to your head.
(36:05):
You know, don't think too much,don't think about it.
This is the rapid fire section,gotham, and I will shoot off
questions, expect you to answerthem very quickly, but uh, I've
got to start because my husbandand I have an airstream and we
spent three months in it duringthe pandemic traveling around,
so I can yeah, oh, we could swapstories, but this is about you.
What is your favoritecampground or national park and
why?
Ron (36:23):
I'm going to go with.
Angel Fire, new Mexico.
Just again, natural beauty.
We were there in the summerversus the winter, so you've got
all the mountains that are skiresorts in the winter.
It's called Angel Fire becausethe sunsets look like fire.
We spent a month there.
It was absolutely incrediblybeautiful.
You're not far from Taos andsome of these places that have
(36:44):
played really important roles inthe history of this country,
and so you're learning aboutNative American culture.
So much influence, so that's abig one.
Paula (36:55):
Because we've stayed there.
How's Angel Fire?
We've stayed in between them.
Ron (36:59):
We have, Because we've stayed there.
How's Angel Fire?
We've stayed in between them.
We have.
It was called it literally waslike the only RV park in Angel
Fire.
Gautham (37:09):
Yeah, the one that has the hot tubs and the washroom.
So now you've got the travelbug in me, but I'm more of a
foodie than a traveler.
In your travels, ron.
What was the food item thatstood out the most to?
Ron (37:20):
you, it would actually be the lack of food.
So I'm a vegetarian, we bothare.
The lack of healthy foodoptions in this country is a
real challenge.
I'm not a foodie, gautam.
I use food as fuel, not asentertainment.
Rich (37:36):
All right, so I will ask the last one.
You have and I've had thechance to see you speak several
times, but I don't remember ifyou have your own walk on or
walk off music.
If you do, what is it?
If you don't, what can I see?
I don't.
(38:01):
I'm not that big of a speakeryet.
I would say I don't know, rich,I'm just going to say a solid
level of applause is all I need.
Well, we'll have.
You know what.
What we'll do is.
We will take a poll when we airthis episode and we'll see if
afterward there is a nominationfor a song that can end with
thunderous.
I like it, thank you.
Paula (38:09):
Well, Ron, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with
you.
Thank you for taking your timeagain and thank you for
answering our student questions.
We are so grateful for you andwe hope to have you back again.
Ron (38:22):
I would love that.
Thank you, Paula, Thanks Richand Gotham Always so fun to
spend time.
Paula (38:26):
Well, that was a fascinating conversation, but
I've got to say my favorite partof this one was having your
daughter, rich, so I lovedhearing her question and having
her a part of it.
So, you guys, podcast BFFs whatwere your takeaways here?
Rich (38:40):
her question and having her a part of it.
So you guys podcast BFFs.
What were your takeaways here?
Well, I will tell you, and wewent off camera when my daughter
was asking the question, butshe was beaming from ear to ear.
She actually she's read RetailPride.
She has it at school with her.
She actually is working inretail over the summer.
I love it when she comes homeand talks about the customers
that she's met and how importantstocking is, and she really
(39:04):
likes things to be perfect.
So she got the biggest kick outof being able to ask Ron
questions.
Gautham (39:09):
Yeah, for me.
You know, I was hoping he wouldbring up his three pillars in
the book, which he did Right,when it comes to empathy, when
it comes to curiosity, I equateron to those pillars, and so I'm
happy that he brought that upso that we could have a more
detailed discussion later on theimportance of these intangibles
(39:31):
and how they shape and makeleaders today, and it's
important lesson for students totake away.
So I was glad that he broughtthat up.
I'll also say that I'm gladthat he's changing how retail is
being recruited.
Retailers are trying to recruitnew talent.
I'm really rooting for him onthat aspect as well.
Rich (39:47):
What I love is you hear people that have been in one
segment of retail.
They've been in, you know.
Obviously, with him working forBonobos and with Apple, that is
going to be a higher endproduct, it's going to be a
higher touch product, and so youwould expect somebody with that
experience to talk aboutcustomer service.
However, when he also talksabout Walmart and he talks about
(40:08):
spending time at racetrack andhe talks about traveling on the
camper and meeting people in thelocal stores, he really
genuinely believes and I thinkhe's right that service is not a
matter of what you spend andrespect for frontline workers
isn't based on what you spend.
Paula (40:30):
It's say confidently that one of the attributes of
success is to really care aboutyour consumer, your client, the
end product, how that's going tobe received and the value it
brings.
And he really drives that home,just that love for people and
(40:51):
that really understanding thempeople of all diverse
backgrounds.
So I really I resonated withthat, coming from a journalism
background as well andunderstand people and their
stories, so I know a lot of ourlisteners will resonate with
that as well.
As far as campers, we startedmy husband and I started with a
teardrop it's a king-sized bedwith just a roof and then we
upgraded to the Airstream.
Rich (41:12):
I was struck by his comment about seeing the world
through airports and that one ofthe things that means a lot to
him right now is when he wastraveling across country for
Retail Pride that he was meetingeveryday people, and he said it
subtly, but he said meetingpeople, that I had never met
people like them before and theyhad never met people like me.
(41:33):
The comment you made aboutjournalism and storytelling is
important because I know howimportant that is to you.
You can see him just absolutelyloving those stories and that,
fundamentally, is a connectionpoint that I hope we don't run
the risk of losing with all thetalk about AI and technology and
you've got to find that balance.
Paula (41:52):
So I agree wholeheartedly .
And the last plug I will makefor camping for anyone who wants
to be a camper which, by theway, you don't need an Airstream
, you don't need a teardrop, youcan just grab a campsite, you
know, bunk with a friend I willsay that you do meet some of the
most interesting and down toearth people during camping.
It's just opened my eyesbecause we come from large
(42:13):
cities and the people I've metthrough camping were just some
incredible stories there.
Gautham (42:18):
And just a reflection point right Every conversation,
every podcast we've had so far,it always pivots to human
connections.
Paula (42:26):
Thank you, Ron, for such a great talk today.
We have a page full of notes.
Thank you so much, and foreveryone listening, we hope you
were able to draw inspirationallessons from this relatable
conversation.
We encourage all of you tofollow Ron Thurston, read his
inspiring book Retail Pride andkeep an eye out for his next
release, coming in 2025.
And stay tuned for moreinsightful conversation on
(42:47):
Retail Relates.
Until next time.
Today on Retail Relates, we're excited to have Ron
Thurston, co-founder OSSY andand best-selling author of
Retail Pride.
Ron shares his remarkablejourney from pioneering the
concept of showrooming withBonobos to redefining field
leadership with Apple, and hisunique insights into why retail
remains a human-centric,emotionally-driven experience.
You want to stay tuned to hearmore about Ron's journey
(00:20):
coast-to-coast, engaging withfrontline retail at all levels.
Get ready to dive deep intowhat makes retail a truly
dynamic career path, and here'ssome great stories along the way
.
Now let's get in my podcastBFFs, rich and Gotham, rich,
gotham.
What do you guys think?
Gautham (00:35):
I'll kick this off.
Ron is somebody I've known forseveral years.
What I am excited about is he'salways been very positive and
uplifting Like I've not seen asingle conversation of him that
I've had with him where hehasn't figured out a way to
frame it in a positive way.
So I look forward to this inthe sense that I do think retail
(00:57):
needs to hear that perspectiveright.
We talk about frontlineemployees and all the challenges
that they face, but I thinkwhat I'm excited about is how
Ron will probably frame it inthe context of the positive
things that they do for thecompany and how they represent
the brand.
Rich (01:13):
Yeah, and I'll make a confession.
When I've known Ron for acouple of years, after he wrote
the book, I was reading some ofthe things that he was writing
and I love the fact that he waspromoting retail.
The confession is, I didn'treally associate it with the
things that he was writing and Ilove the fact that he was
promoting retail.
The confession is, I didn'treally associate it with the
fact that he was promotingfrontline retail.
I was looking at it in retailin general and then when he and
(01:34):
I had the opportunity to have aconversation including Gotham,
we went to dinner that night ithit me that he was really
promoting frontline retail and Iwill admit that it shifted my
own perspective, having startedin the stores and having that
feeling that it wasn't a careeruntil I had made it into
headquarters and after spendingtime with Ron, it hit me that
(01:56):
that's kind of the wrong thingto look at, and so I love the
fact that he's championing itand I can't wait to get into
that a little bit more with him.
Paula (02:02):
Well, welcome, Ron Thurston, to Retail Relates.
We are so excited and sohonored to have you here.
So Ron Thurston is theco-founder of OSSY best-selling
author of Retail Prime and hismain areas of expertise are
retail field leadership and teamadvocacy.
So Ron Thurston is a dedicatedretail leader with over three
decades of experience with topAmerican brands like Gap.
(02:24):
West Elm Apple, Tory Burch,Bonobos and St Lawrence.
As the best-selling author ofRetail Pride, he offers
invaluable guidance onaccelerating retail careers.
Ron has held key roles,including vice president of
stores at Intermix and hostedthe Retail in America podcast,
traveling nationwide tohighlight remarkable retail
(02:46):
stories.
In 2024, he co-founded OSSY, aretail recruiting agency
addressing industry hiringchallenges.
Ron also serves on advisoryboards for retail tech companies
and the board of directors forGoodwill New York, new Jersey.
Ron, it is an absolute honor tohave you here.
Thank you for joining us atRetail Relates.
Ron (03:06):
Thank you.
Thank you so much, Paula.
It's a very generousintroduction and you can tell
I'm a busy, proud guy to be inthis industry.
Excellent.
Rich (03:15):
So Paula embarrassed you a little bit with your resume and
we'll have the broader resumeon the site.
But one of the questions thatwe like to start off with is if
you think about what got you tothis moment, can you give us
three pivot points that happenedthroughout your career,
throughout your life thatbrought you to where you are
right?
Ron (03:36):
now.
Thanks, rich.
I think I just turned 60 andyou and I actually had some back
and forth about how that feels,and you do spend time maybe in
those milestone birthdaysreflecting on like where did I
make good decisions?
Where did I pivot?
Where did I maybe turn leftwhen I maybe thought I was going
(03:59):
to turn right, all of it?
So if I think about that,question number one would be
writing Retail Pride.
There's no question about that,that that book changed my life
and the intention around writinga book.
That really was the first bookever written specifically for
the front lines of retail.
The intention was not to changemy life.
(04:20):
It was to provide language andconfidence and support to travel
the country and speak to teamsto be able to really change the
(04:48):
dynamic of what it means to workin the front lines of retail,
whether you're just joining orwhether you've been doing it for
30 years, and the amount ofinbound that I get still to this
day in books spent out threeand a half years about how the
book changed their life is allthat I needed to do.
So writing the book was numberone and in 2014, I moved to New
(05:12):
York City for Bonobos, as Paulamentioned, which at the time was
a very small brand in theretail landscape.
I was very happy, living in LA,I was a regional manager for
Tory Burch and I had not reachedthis kind of director VP level
in my career yet, at the age of50.
And I said you know what?
(05:32):
I'm going to take this risk.
I don't know what this is goingto become.
I'm going to move across thecountry and I'm going to build
something that I think hassignificant potential to change
the entire industry and I wasvery grateful for the
opportunity and it's exactlywhat it did.
(05:52):
Bonobos really was at theforefront of what we called it
showrooming at the time.
Like the trends in languagehave changed, but this idea of
how do you create a retailconcept that is best in class
and not sell anything, what doesthat mean to the customer?
What is a real retailexperience about?
(06:13):
And it's about emotionalconnection.
And Bonobos gave me the chanceto create that in four walls and
a high level of service,because you're not buying
anything, so the only thing youcan do is provide service.
So the the concept of thatchoice for me going from a very
large brand to a very smallbrand uh, was a pivot that, uh,
(06:36):
I feel like at the time was verymuch the right choice and still
today I would say in the thethird, I'd say the third one
would be in 2008,.
I joined Apple after having beena multi-store regional manager
for many years, running hundredsof stores.
(06:56):
I joined Apple and Apple askedme to run one store and said we
don't hire multi-store leaders.
If you're going to work here,you have to come in and show us
that you know how to run a store.
And at the time that seemedvery strange from a career
explaining my experience, likewhat do you mean?
I have to run one store.
Well, running one Apple storeis like running a company, so
(07:20):
hundreds of employees, millionsof dollars generated a month.
But the pivot was really how doI learn an entirely new business
model and really enhance myskill set and think about
another Again?
This was a time when Apple wasreimagining retail and I wanted
I would have been there at anycost.
(07:41):
So, even though I had to reallythink about my level of
responsibility and what thatlooked like on paper, it was a
choice I made because I was notgoing to let, at the time, the
most innovative company in theworld retail, that I was not
going to be part of that.
Whatever I had to do, I wantedto be part of it.
So I think those are three.
(08:02):
There are probably 15 more.
Paula (08:03):
That's remarkable.
So you went from macro to microto just everything in between
and at the forefront of whatBonobos started.
I mean, I remember verydistinctly in Dallas.
It is revolutionary because itwas the first of its kind to not
sell anything, experiment,experiential, and now that's
more common, right.
Really, this whole scope inyour expertise in retail.
Ron (08:26):
Thank you.
I think part of that's also,paula, an intention around a
career in this industry, and youthink about students and you
think about people that arejoining this.
We have a tendency, as a fieldleadership industry, to not
manage our career the way peoplein corporate do, and because
(08:47):
it's not a linear path.
So what I wanted to do once Ifigured out I was good at this,
like then, where do I need to be?
What do I need to do in orderto move my skill set forward?
Ultimately, I want to have thisjob.
What do I have to do to getthere?
And I don't think that that'salways a common conversation,
(09:07):
because it means changingcompanies often, and that's
something that I think can bereally scary and this kind of up
down across.
Paula (09:16):
Was retail accidental for you?
Because you've been sointentional and you sound so
like you knew this is what youwanted.
So what would you?
Was it expensive for you?
And if it was, what would yoube doing if it wasn't retail?
Ron (09:29):
I love this question because it's like yes, yes and
no.
So all I knew as a 16 year old17 year old is that I wanted to
work in this business, but Ididn't know what I wanted to do.
And I come from a family Iwrite a little bit about in
Retail.
Pride of my grandfather was theCEO of a construction company
(09:49):
that built grocery stores, builtall the Safeway stores on the
West Coast, and so I had a largecompany in construction and all
I knew I said I didn't want tobe in construction, but I wanted
to be something to do withretail, fashion, and the only
school on the West Coast thattaught that was it's called the
Fashion Institute of Design andMerchandising.
My only intention was I need, Iwant to spend the least amount
(10:13):
of time in school in order to goto work and that again maybe
controversial.
But I got a two-year degree inretail administration from that
school and I got a two-yeardegree in fashion design and
that's it.
And I said, okay, I know enoughabout retail and I know enough
about construction, design,fashion, to somehow create a
career.
(10:33):
And so my first part, first six,seven years of my career, was
in fashion design.
I was a pattern maker, I was adesign room manager, I was the
designer of a couple ofdifferent brands and I'm like,
okay, I learned this part, Now Iwant to learn the retail part.
And then, once the retail partstarted, I joined Gap Kids at
the time, in early 2000s andlate 90s actually.
(10:55):
Once that started, I never leftretail again.
I found my real love.
Yet 30 something years later Iwas working in luxury fashion
and all of that knowledge abouthistory, construction,
fabrication, fit, all of thatactually serves me really well
because I can sell anything toanyone, because I understand how
(11:17):
it works.
So ultimately it was sort ofaccidental, but this is an
industry I had every intentionof working in.
Paula (11:26):
It also leaves room for other people, right?
People listening to know thatit's okay to go in it
open-minded but also knowing.
Well, I want to do retail, butnot exactly what, but I know
that I'll be okay.
Right, it gives us theconfidence to hear from you that
that's an okay path and an okayway to think.
So thank you for sharing that.
And it's often said thatfailure is a better teacher,
(11:49):
right?
We always talk about successesand you have like a litany of
successes.
Just the brands alone thatwe've named are just incredible.
Anyone would aspire to just one, and you've worked at multiple,
multiple, just aspirationalbrands.
So failure is often a betterteacher than successes.
Is there any lesson that youlearned from failure that you
would like to share with ouraudience as a way of learning?
Ron (12:11):
It's funny, paula, because I spend very little time
thinking about these things.
I'm always, and I don't and I'msaying that in reference to how
I lead I spend very little time.
I have spent very little timeas a leader on your performance
evaluations, talking about youropportunities.
I am very much one that sayswhat do you do well, what do you
(12:33):
want to be famous for, where doyou make the greatest impact?
And let's utilize andcapitalize on all of that first,
not what do you not do well,what did you make mistakes in,
and let's try to fix those.
I spend very little time inthat headspace.
So, to answer your question, Idon't really have one, because
(12:57):
I've always thought about thisidea of where am I winning and
how can I win more.
It's a mental place that I putmyself of not drowning to going
too deep into the failure andmore about not just celebrating
the win but recognizing why youwon.
Paula (13:12):
Yeah, and how did you Coaching your strengths based
leadership?
Right, it's your strengths.
Ron (13:18):
It's exactly right, it's, and so even in being asked to
write performance reviewsutilizing that kind of language,
I really push back on it.
I'm like I'm not.
We're not going to sit here andtalk about the things you don't
do.
Paula (13:31):
Well, what has been your biggest strength then?
Ron (13:34):
I believe when people describe my leadership, it's, I
would say empathy is a little,but I write in retail pride,
empathy, curiosity and focus.
I write about them as thepillars of success, but they're
actually my own reflection of myown success.
The idea of leading withcuriosity but at the same time,
(13:58):
having the ability to focus myenergy and focus the attention
where it needs to be to move theresults forward is a very
unique skill I've discoveredbecause often retail is so chaos
driven and it's new every day,and so it's actually really hard
to predict what's going tohappen.
When you come in in the morningand unlock the front door, you
(14:21):
have no idea what's about tohappen.
It's very different thanworking in the office, but
someone's ability, where chaosis being thrown at you all day,
to focus your energy is, I think, a skill that has led much to
my success.
I've learned how to deliver theresults that you need to deliver
by being very empathetic andvery curious about how to do it
(14:43):
and deliver the results.
I've always been do it anddeliver the results.
I've always been someone thatcould deliver the results and
that feels good to be able tosay that and and and unique and
a unique balance of skills.
It sounds like a job interview.
I'm not even.
I'm not.
Rich (14:59):
I'm not working.
Isn't everything a jobinterview from time to time,
maybe it is.
Ron (15:04):
I do all day, every day, it's what I do.
Gautham (15:08):
Ron, I'm going to ask a question that piqued my
interest in the way you framedit.
You figured out when you weregood at it.
For someone who's starting.
For many people it's always achallenge to figure out when
you're good at something rightand when it is to pack up the
bags and move on to greenerpastures.
(15:29):
Is there any guidance that youcan give for that from your?
Ron (15:34):
illustrious career.
Yeah, I think those moments inour careers where we recognize
that we don't just find joy init, and that you kind of go home
and you're like, wow, I workedreally hard today, I'm so tired,
but I love what I do and can'twait to go back and do it
tomorrow, I think those momentsor you recognize your ability to
(15:56):
deliver results.
I mean, you have to face thefact that retail is not a
nonprofit.
And while I talk all day aboutemotions and coaching and
managing through people, if youdon't deliver the results that
the company is expecting you todeliver, you will not be
successful.
And so once you discover thatyou actually have the ability to
(16:16):
both love what you do and berecognized for it and deliver,
then you say you know, I'mactually good at this, I'm good
at this and I want to do more ofthis.
And then the next step in thatjourney is then find the place
to work that celebrates andrecognizes you for that.
At that particular time, everycompany goes through arcs of
(16:37):
when they're really good at this.
When I talk about being curious, it's also about studying the
industry, reading as much as youcan about what brands are doing
, who they're hiring, who's ontheir board of directors, who's
in the C-suite?
How many women are in theC-suite?
Pay attention to these things,because it showcases.
Is this a place where I want towork right now?
Rich (16:59):
So that's going to allow me to pivot into a conversation
about retail as a career.
So we're at an interestingcrossroads.
With AI and technology, there'sthe discussion of how much
labor is that going to replaceand at the same time, we are
trying to convince more peopleto consider retail as a career
(17:21):
and really the 360 degree view,which includes being customer
facing.
How do companies, how shouldcompanies, face that challenge
today?
Ron (17:32):
So I think there's several things there, rich.
So number one is the retailenvironment is inherently human
centric.
The purpose of a retail storeis to create an emotional
reaction and an emotionalconnection to your brand.
Otherwise, you can Just buy iton a website.
(17:52):
The purpose of the store, then,is inherently human, and so
when I think about AI, I thinkabout this idea of what can it
support?
How can it support my work?
To provide time to give me backto my team and my customer, and
a lot of that can be in dataanalysis.
It can be in inventorymanagement.
There's a lot of statisticaldata that maybe I was doing
(18:15):
manually that now can be donevia AI to give me more time back
in my day to be great at beinga human.
And that's what I love aboutretail is that you actually
can't replace this emotion.
You can't take me out of theequation in a retail environment
.
We can generate AI when itcomes to visual merchandising,
where to put it but it requireshumans to actually, particularly
(18:38):
in many product categories, tomake it beautiful, to storytell,
to share the emotions that youhave and the history behind it,
and all of that requires us tobe at our best.
This idea of a career in retailis not only frontline.
It is about customeracquisition, about building
(18:59):
business, it's about loyalty,brand and it's the greatest
expression of any company.
Is what is the retailexperience?
I love the conversation aboutthe difference between how AI
can impact retail and how humanswill always be the greatest
asset to it.
Rich (19:17):
How do you think retailers should improve their recruiting
efforts to try and gain themost diverse talented
individuals that they can,especially if retail is such an
accidental career for many of usthat wind up in it?
Ron (19:31):
The interesting part about that question is that the most
diverse part of any organizationI've worked for is the field,
and so this we are actuallynaturally diverse by how we
recruit and hire.
We always dominate in thepercent of women that are in the
organization.
It's always higher in the field.
(19:51):
The percent of people of colorare always.
It's always higher in the field.
The percent of people of colorare always always higher in the
field.
So we we naturally do thatbecause it's just who we are.
Where there's intention behindthat is.
You know, maybe I need someonewith a specific skillset in this
product category.
Maybe I need someone thatspeaks a specific language,
because a large percentage of mycustomers speak this language.
(20:13):
There are certainly ways toaddress how can I be best in
service to the people walking inthe store today?
What does my team need to be?
You see it often organically,but there can also just be
strategy behind what's missingfrom the experience that I want
to deliver to my customers everyday, and I love the fact that
(20:34):
the store side of any company isalways more diverse.
Yeah, we don't really celebratethat.
I think we sometimes overthinkall the qualifications and all
the diversity and all of it oflike hire people who love people
.
The rest of it will come withyou.
Rich (20:51):
I love that answer.
Do you and without namingorganizations either that you've
worked for, that you've seen?
I've seen a lot oforganizations where there's this
tension between headquartersand the field.
How much have you seen that andhow can retailers solve that
equation or that divisivenessthat can happen?
Ron (21:10):
One of the fun slash, challenging things that I get to
do now when I'm on the otherside of the table, is go to
almost every retail conferenceand be on stage and almost
always the audience.
Now, unless it's a conferencespecifically for store leaders,
the audience is always corporateand it could be a marketing
conference.
It could be a store.
(21:31):
I was at a store operationsconference last week.
There are always headquartersteams.
Once in a while you'll meetsomeone that came from the field
.
Their overwhelming response tothings that I speak about is oh
my gosh, I love the field.
I love to go and speak to theteams.
They give me the most amount ofenergy.
I love talking to stores and myresponse to that is then go do
(21:52):
that.
Because when I'm in stores andI ask the questions of who's
coming in, what are they askingyou?
It's almost always.
Nobody ever comes.
That is from traveling thecountry speaking to all kinds of
different sizes of retailers,the brands that do this
consistently.
Well, it's a pretty short list,and when I say well, I don't
(22:12):
mean just New York City, la,miami, it's all across the
country, in small towns and bigcities.
Spend time in the field.
Ask the questions they have themost insight about your
customer that you'll ever wantto know.
I think sometimes it's flexiblework schedules and a lot of
things are obstacles to gettinginto stores.
But I met a gentleman at aconference I was at a few weeks
(22:35):
ago in Dallas who runs racetrack, which is a big fuel stations
and as someone that lives in anRV I know racetracks.
He runs all store operations Ithink.
They have 600 locations.
They spend at a minimum twodays a week in the field his
entire team.
That's their standard procedureand they divide and conquer the
(22:55):
country.
They have high turnover andthey have their own challenges
in that space.
But he was so plugged into howthe field was feeling and about
what they could do better at thesmaller headcount.
Often in corporate environmentstoday is preventing brands from
doing this and line atracetrack and that it does come
down to how you're taking careof the customer in front of you
(23:40):
regardless of the structure, andthere definitely is that
leadership aspect.
Rich (23:45):
I guess my follow-up to that would be having led field
teams and having led store teams.
What strategies do you use inorder to maintain morale, keep
people engaged, especially whenyou have high traffic times,
organizational changes or justeven a downturn in business,
which is going to happen throughcycle?
Ron (24:04):
I think Rich, this idea of high levels of communication
about exactly what's going on inthe company, in the industry,
in your product categories, themore you share.
In a way, I believe that'seducational.
It brings people along on thejourney.
How you bring people along onthe journey is this kind of
(24:26):
sense of we are here, we'recommunicating, we're sharing the
details, we're celebrating thewins, we're looking for the
opportunities to do better.
We are always with you side byside.
And there are brands severalbrands I've seen that have
changed this idea of corporateor headquarters into support
(24:46):
centers.
We're here in service to thefield.
I hear that language and thatis a really positive way for the
field to feel like you're inservice to us.
We are, as a field organization, standing in front of a
customer, but I know that behindme I have a group of people
that are in service to me and ifyou can do that, then you're
winning and people will doanything they can to deliver the
(25:09):
results if you can create thatemotion.
I've walked into an organizationas a leader and said we're not
communicating enough, we're notputting everybody on Zoom and
talking about things, we're notsharing enough in the good and
the bad.
Let's just put it all out thereand then all of us together can
move this organization forward.
(25:29):
But it requires everyone toagree on that strategy and
there's a lot of old habits oflike well, don't share the P&L
with the store because theyshouldn't know how much rent
we're paying.
And I just believe we live in atime where more information
helps us be better at what we doand it creates this level of
commitment and trust that canreally change the trajectory of
(25:50):
a company.
If people again and she reallychanged the trajectory of a
company If people again knowthat you trust them and you are
in service to them, that's anemotion that you can't replace.
Rich (26:05):
I have to ask have you trademarked in service of, and,
if you have, can I pay you aroyalty for it, because I want
to start using that for ourheadquarters?
Ron (26:13):
You're welcome to it, Rich.
Welcome to it, Rich.
You're welcome to it.
It's as much of a.
I think it's a mindset morethan a phrase, because it's your
actions actually demonstrate ifyou are in service or not.
Rich (26:24):
I was going to say.
I've always been given theadvice If your company culture
boils down to the phrase on aposter, go start from scratch.
Ron (26:31):
It's true, because that's how you show up and what you do.
You know, and I think, in manyways, there are a lot of people
and a lot of brands who arestill recovering from how they
treated the field in 2020.
I think that we are stillrecovering from that versus
(26:51):
field divide.
Gautham (26:52):
Let me start with that question right, and I'm a
data-driven person.
I honestly believe that peoplewho are in the frontline have
the greatest amount of data onhow customer preferences are
changing.
What are the issues withcompanies?
What are the opportunities thatare untapped or yet to be
tapped?
Do you see companies where theinformation flows upwards, and
(27:16):
how can companies actuallyempower frontline employees to
be truly the face of theorganization?
Ron (27:24):
I think first, gautam, is trust.
If you are in service to thefield, they trust you, and that
if you're going to put in theeffort to share everything that
you've heard, that you'velearned, that you're
experiencing, if you trust wherethat information is going, then
you're more likely to share it.
(27:44):
And so what I also say often tocorporate audiences is that I
want you to be in the field andI want you to spend time and ask
questions.
Spend time and ask questions,but if you go back to the office
and do nothing about thatinformation, you have actually
done more damage than youintended to do.
Because it feels really goodfor the C-suite to visit a store
(28:04):
and ask a lot of questions andask for feedback and everyone
shares it, and you have muffinsand coffee and everybody leaves
happy and high-fiving you.
Three months later, you askyour district manager what
happened and they're like, oh, Idon't know, I never heard
anything.
The next time you ask, thefield's going to be like, yeah,
I don't know, I haven't reallyheard anything this week.
I think that's a unique skillthat leaders have that I tried
(28:25):
to do.
If I spent a week traveling inthe field, the first thing I
would do would be.
Here's what I learned.
Thank you for sharing.
Here's what I learned.
Here's what I heard, and here'swhat we're going to take action
on immediately.
And here's some things that weactually can't do, and here's
why.
And so if they understand whythat could be next year, but if
you just do nothing with all ofthis information, then you've
(28:49):
wasted your time.
Gautham (28:50):
I want to keep one more question, a real short question
.
You've used the word emotion,probably the most I've heard
anyone use, and I love it,because I do think retail is
about human connections.
How can companies buildlifelong human connections?
You're able to connect for aperiod of time and then it seems
to erode at best.
How do companies build it?
(29:11):
And you've done it across bigcompanies, small luxury versus
not so luxury yeah, what's thesecret.
Ron (29:17):
uh, I think I would challenge you on like for life.
I would say I want to create anemotion that will live with you
, maybe for the next few days,and that's okay, because the
speed at which we live life ifyou created an incredible
emotional connection, you willtell several people in the next
72 hours what happened and afterthat it dies off.
(29:38):
And so I actually think that weover strategize and over expect
people to build these lifelongconnections.
Build a connection that feelsright for at this moment today.
Great point, that's it.
Great point, yeah.
Paula (29:52):
It sounds a lot like you're talking about
authenticity.
Ron (29:55):
I would say authenticity, transparency.
Being very authentic is part ofbeing empathetic.
Paula (30:01):
And talking about the world and authenticity and
leadership, I know you've hadseveral mentors in your life and
advisors along the way.
Is there one that stands out?
Ron (30:11):
Paul.
So I dedicated retail pride tomy grandfather.
I mentioned him earlier,no-transcript.
(30:42):
I would watch him walk onto ajob site and the guy started
traveling with him in thesummers, you know, as a high
school student.
And so I'd watch him walk ontoa job site of like a hundred
construction workers and hewould know all their names, he
would know things about them, hewould know about their family.
He would be extremely gratefuland humble, and so I just
(31:04):
watched that in action.
I didn't even know what I waswitnessing, but pretty soon I'm
like that's who I want to be.
I have really tried to emulate,because he was highly respected
.
Paula (31:13):
That level of personalization too right.
I mean it matters when you knoweveryone's name and know the
difference in where they're at,and not just knowing it but
carrying back to authenticity.
Ron (31:24):
Yeah, that's exactly what it is, because if you're not
curious, again empathy andcuriosity kind of where we
started.
If you're not curious, then youcan't lead with empathy.
It's a very powerful skill Idon't actually see very often,
so I really did try to do thatin my career.
Rich (31:41):
Ron, that's fantastic.
One of the things that we wereasked to do as we started to
record this podcast.
We are using it as a way totalk to college students, those
emerging in their career,whether it's retail or not,
those in frontline retail, totalk more about the
opportunities that exist, andone of the suggestions that was
(32:02):
made by the students that I hadis get more students involved in
the podcast.
So we have invited one todayand I'm going to introduce her
quickly and she may have one ortwo questions for you.
Liliana (32:14):
So if you can go ahead and introduce yourself, Hi Ron,
I'm Liliana and I go to GeorgeMason.
Hi Hi, I read your book RetailPride and I absolutely love it
and I think that there are manyinteresting lessons in your book
.
With this, I have two questions.
One I'm currently working at afrontline retail job and how
(32:34):
would I be able to turn thisinto like an actual career?
Ron (32:37):
No thanks, lily.
I'll give you a couple ofstatistics which I think are
helpful.
Students at the National RetailFederation just released some
of this.
So, on average, stay with.
Within the retail industry, youwill change roles about every
14 months and that, in my mind,is one of the reasons that you
kind of stick with it and yousay you know I really love what
(32:59):
I do.
We talked about on this episodeof finding the joy in it and
then recognizing your skills andstick to it.
I think there's endlessopportunities across all kinds
of product categories, storetypes and businesses and those
skills translate into endlessopportunities.
Liliana (33:19):
That is one of the best answers I've ever heard.
Thank you so much for youradvice.
Thank you With my secondquestion.
I've heard that you've traveleda lot and everything.
You talked a tiny bit about itearlier.
What did you love most abouttraveling around the country for
Retail Pride?
Ron (33:37):
I'd say number one is seeing.
You know, living in campgroundsgives you this sense of the
natural beauty of this country.
So that's number one.
I've spent my career flying allover this country, visiting
every mall and every stripcenter.
I feel like my only knowledgeof this country was where the
mall is.
And to then actually live in anRV for over a year, live in
(34:00):
campgrounds, find the naturalbeauty, that was number one.
I think number two is theopportunity to meet people that
I would never have been able tomeet.
When you live in a major citylike I was living in New York
City at the time there arecultures and people and a lot of
communities that I didn't evermeet anyone from and they never
(34:21):
met anyone like me.
So I think that there's thissense of divisiveness and that
we all kind of live in our ownseparate walls.
We don't cross over when youlive in an RV park and your
neighbors change every dayBecause someone's moving in,
someone's moving out and likewho are you, where are you from,
what do you do?
Like, why are you living in anRV?
(34:41):
You meet the most interestingpeople and I love that about
that life and I will absolutelydo that again.
And third is meeting such proudpeople who work on the front
lines of retail all over thecountry.
I spent time in Walmart.
I spent time in small brands.
I spent time in family-ownedcompanies Walmart, I spent time
(35:02):
in small brands.
I spent time in family-ownedcompanies, very small towns
where it was like one grocerystore and wanted to meet the
team.
There's retail is everywhere.
It doesn't get.
Often the appreciationparticularly in smaller cities,
where it serves a very importantpurpose to a small city is when
the one grocery store is closedor Walmart doesn't open, no one
has anywhere else to shop.
(35:22):
So there's this appreciation ofthe role that retail plays in
the world that you can only getif you live there.
So it's a long answer to yourquestion, lily, but there were a
lot of lessons, endless amountsof lessons.
Liliana (35:36):
Thank you so much.
And yeah, even if there are alot of lessons, I do think that
each and every one is just asimportant as the other.
You're welcome.
Thank you so much.
Paula (35:45):
All right, so let's get to the fun part, the grilling
the.
You know we have caricatures ofeach one of us in a red seat,
so this is your red seat moment.
Are you ready?
I'm ready, oh boy All right, sosay the first thing that comes
to your head.
(36:05):
You know, don't think too much,don't think about it.
This is the rapid fire section,gotham, and I will shoot off
questions, expect you to answerthem very quickly, but uh, I've
got to start because my husbandand I have an airstream and we
spent three months in it duringthe pandemic traveling around,
so I can yeah, oh, we could swapstories, but this is about you.
What is your favoritecampground or national park and
why?
Ron (36:23):
I'm going to go with.
Angel Fire, new Mexico.
Just again, natural beauty.
We were there in the summerversus the winter, so you've got
all the mountains that are skiresorts in the winter.
It's called Angel Fire becausethe sunsets look like fire.
We spent a month there.
It was absolutely incrediblybeautiful.
You're not far from Taos andsome of these places that have
(36:44):
played really important roles inthe history of this country,
and so you're learning aboutNative American culture.
So much influence, so that's abig one.
Paula (36:55):
Because we've stayed there.
How's Angel Fire?
We've stayed in between them.
Ron (36:59):
We have, Because we've stayed there.
How's Angel Fire?
We've stayed in between them.
We have.
It was called it literally waslike the only RV park in Angel
Fire.
Gautham (37:09):
Yeah, the one that has the hot tubs and the washroom.
So now you've got the travelbug in me, but I'm more of a
foodie than a traveler.
In your travels, ron.
What was the food item thatstood out the most to?
Ron (37:20):
you, it would actually be the lack of food.
So I'm a vegetarian, we bothare.
The lack of healthy foodoptions in this country is a
real challenge.
I'm not a foodie, gautam.
I use food as fuel, not asentertainment.
Rich (37:36):
All right, so I will ask the last one.
You have and I've had thechance to see you speak several
times, but I don't remember ifyou have your own walk on or
walk off music.
If you do, what is it?
If you don't, what can I see?
I don't.
(38:01):
I'm not that big of a speakeryet.
I would say I don't know, rich,I'm just going to say a solid
level of applause is all I need.
Well, we'll have.
You know what.
What we'll do is.
We will take a poll when we airthis episode and we'll see if
afterward there is a nominationfor a song that can end with
thunderous.
I like it, thank you.
Paula (38:09):
Well, Ron, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with
you.
Thank you for taking your timeagain and thank you for
answering our student questions.
We are so grateful for you andwe hope to have you back again.
Ron (38:22):
I would love that.
Thank you, Paula, Thanks Richand Gotham Always so fun to
spend time.
Paula (38:26):
Well, that was a fascinating conversation, but
I've got to say my favorite partof this one was having your
daughter, rich, so I lovedhearing her question and having
her a part of it.
So, you guys, podcast BFFs whatwere your takeaways here?
Rich (38:40):
her question and having her a part of it.
So you guys podcast BFFs.
What were your takeaways here?
Well, I will tell you, and wewent off camera when my daughter
was asking the question, butshe was beaming from ear to ear.
She actually she's read RetailPride.
She has it at school with her.
She actually is working inretail over the summer.
I love it when she comes homeand talks about the customers
that she's met and how importantstocking is, and she really
(39:04):
likes things to be perfect.
So she got the biggest kick outof being able to ask Ron
questions.
Gautham (39:09):
Yeah, for me.
You know, I was hoping he wouldbring up his three pillars in
the book, which he did Right,when it comes to empathy, when
it comes to curiosity, I equateron to those pillars, and so I'm
happy that he brought that upso that we could have a more
detailed discussion later on theimportance of these intangibles
(39:31):
and how they shape and makeleaders today, and it's
important lesson for students totake away.
So I was glad that he broughtthat up.
I'll also say that I'm gladthat he's changing how retail is
being recruited.
Retailers are trying to recruitnew talent.
I'm really rooting for him onthat aspect as well.
Rich (39:47):
What I love is you hear people that have been in one
segment of retail.
They've been in, you know.
Obviously, with him working forBonobos and with Apple, that is
going to be a higher endproduct, it's going to be a
higher touch product, and so youwould expect somebody with that
experience to talk aboutcustomer service.
However, when he also talksabout Walmart and he talks about
(40:08):
spending time at racetrack andhe talks about traveling on the
camper and meeting people in thelocal stores, he really
genuinely believes and I thinkhe's right that service is not a
matter of what you spend andrespect for frontline workers
isn't based on what you spend.
Paula (40:30):
It's say confidently that one of the attributes of
success is to really care aboutyour consumer, your client, the
end product, how that's going tobe received and the value it
brings.
And he really drives that home,just that love for people and
(40:51):
that really understanding thempeople of all diverse
backgrounds.
So I really I resonated withthat, coming from a journalism
background as well andunderstand people and their
stories, so I know a lot of ourlisteners will resonate with
that as well.
As far as campers, we startedmy husband and I started with a
teardrop it's a king-sized bedwith just a roof and then we
upgraded to the Airstream.
Rich (41:12):
I was struck by his comment about seeing the world
through airports and that one ofthe things that means a lot to
him right now is when he wastraveling across country for
Retail Pride that he was meetingeveryday people, and he said it
subtly, but he said meetingpeople, that I had never met
people like them before and theyhad never met people like me.
(41:33):
The comment you made aboutjournalism and storytelling is
important because I know howimportant that is to you.
You can see him just absolutelyloving those stories and that,
fundamentally, is a connectionpoint that I hope we don't run
the risk of losing with all thetalk about AI and technology and
you've got to find that balance.
Paula (41:52):
So I agree wholeheartedly .
And the last plug I will makefor camping for anyone who wants
to be a camper which, by theway, you don't need an Airstream
, you don't need a teardrop, youcan just grab a campsite, you
know, bunk with a friend I willsay that you do meet some of the
most interesting and down toearth people during camping.
It's just opened my eyesbecause we come from large
(42:13):
cities and the people I've metthrough camping were just some
incredible stories there.
Gautham (42:18):
And just a reflection point right Every conversation,
every podcast we've had so far,it always pivots to human
connections.
Paula (42:26):
Thank you, Ron, for such a great talk today.
We have a page full of notes.
Thank you so much, and foreveryone listening, we hope you
were able to draw inspirationallessons from this relatable
conversation.
We encourage all of you tofollow Ron Thurston, read his
inspiring book Retail Pride andkeep an eye out for his next
release, coming in 2025.
And stay tuned for moreinsightful conversation on
(42:47):
Retail Relates.
Until next time.
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