S3, E7: Ashley Paul Breaks Down Authentic Black Male Friendships in Media and the Gender Wars

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In this episode of Rethinking Manhood, I get to sit down with Ashley Paul (@driedinkpen), a brilliant content contributor with @FeministBookClub.

About Ashley: 

Ashley Paul is a traveler, runner, and baker. She is an Everlasting Bookworm and Culture Maven. She is passionate about supporting high school juniors and seniors to write compelling stories for their post-secondary careers. She loves stories with social commentary, atmospheric writing, and compelling characters.

About the Episode:

Together we talk about the divide between Black men and women (the gender wars) that has become a cultural flashpoint, fueled by social media algorithms and the temptation to reduce complex human relationships to oversimplified stereotypes. But what happens when we pause the gender wars to examine what authentic connection might look like?

Ashley unpacks a different pathway forward: "Black men and women need to earn each other." This isn't about creating more hoops to jump through, but rather acknowledging that meaningful relationships require intentional effort and respect rather than assumptions. Ashley shares how her own friendships with men have evolved from childhood playground interactions to adult relationships grounded in mutual respect and understanding.

We dive deep into media representations that drive wedges between Black men and women, examining how these portrayals influence everything from dating experiences to platonic friendships. The conversation takes unexpected turns, from analyzing Kendrick Lamar and Drake to discussing how churches simultaneously preserve cultural touchstones while sometimes reinforcing harmful gender dynamics.

MY FAVORITE PART OF THE EPISODE!
We celebrate the rich tapestry of positive Black male relationships already depicted in media – from classic sitcoms like The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air to contemporary shows like Johnson – proving that healthy Black masculinity has always existed when we know where to look.

Links and Resources:

•  Purchase My Book: The Rules We Live By Stories and Reflections on Unlearning Patriarchal Masculinity 
• Connect with Feminist Book Club! 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I get up and I get down.
I must struggle till the day isdone.
I just want to be myself.
I just want to be myself today.
Wanna know just who I am.

(00:20):
Who I am has really just begun.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
So hi, my name is Ashley.
I am a writer and currently acontent contributor with
Feminist Book Club, which isbased in Minnesota, Minneapolis.
I write about pop culture,literature and social justice
and how that all comes togetherthrough a feminist lens, and I'm

(00:49):
excited to be on the podcasttoday.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Yes, Thanks for being here.
I also feel so disappointedthat I didn't know that that
that was based in Minnesota whenyou said that I was like it is.
We're going to have to talkmore about that at another time,
but I'm curious for you.
So one of the things that'sinteresting we see it a lot on
social media, we see it a lot onmedia, whether it's TV shows,

(01:15):
talk shows is this gender warthing that exists, where there's
a lot of conversations thatexist around how men and women
should be in relationship toeach other.
And then I think about, likethe whole red pill, masculinity,
the incels.
I'm not that into it, I barelyknow what that stuff means.
But overall you know in yourexperience what have platonic

(01:39):
relationships with men been like, Like what have your
friendships with men been like?
Like what?

Speaker 2 (01:46):
have your friendships with men looked like my
friendships with men really,since even elementary school has
just been on a schoolrelationship base, like I would
see my male peers at school andwe would play kickball together,
handball together and we justhad like a nice relationship

(02:07):
with each other.
It was nothing um, it wasn'tsisterly, brotherly, but it
wasn't um demoralizing either,as I feel a lot of school
relationships could be just likeoh, you're a girl, get away
from me.
Da da, da, da da.
And as I've gotten olderthey've kind of evolved to just

(02:30):
like this is who we are aspeople.
For this time being, I don'thave many male relationships or
friendships, but for the onesthat I do have, it's either
evolved because of the spacethat we're in or it's just on a
very touch and go basis.

(02:51):
But we're still in each other'slives.
So, for me, it's just a matterof seeing the beautiful male
relationships that I have in myfamily my dad, my uncles,
cousins and so forth and how doI want those relationships to
align with my male friendships?

(03:11):
I'm not tolerating anydisrespect.
I know how I need to be treated.
So if you can't provide thatfor me, you can kick rocks, you
can get to step in.
So I make sure that all of myrelationships for the time being
or as they go along becausewe're adults, we have lives
there's always the respect there.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
Now, something that you said that fascinated me is
you mentioned that you knowthese relationships.
You wouldn't say that they'resisterly or brotherly, and I
always thought about how oftenespecially with Black folks I
think that like this brother andfriend thing can be so
interchangeable.
Or I feel like for many of mymen, friends that I think is

(03:55):
interesting is we will call eachother brothers before we call
each other friends.
And I'm curious for you how doyou make that distinction
between, like sisterhood,brotherhood and friendship?

Speaker 2 (04:06):
First of all, I love when Black men call each other
brothers.
That is one of my absolutefavorite things in the world
because that camaraderie is soimportant amongst Black men.
As you were saying.
You know the media loves topaint groups of people in
certain ways, and Black mendefinitely get the canvas when

(04:26):
it comes to how they are paintedin society.
So just having those malefriendships amongst Black men is
imperative and I think for meit's just.
It takes me a while to reallylike when I love you, I love you
, and when I don't.

Speaker 3 (04:46):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
And it takes a long time rightfully so for me to
really give myself to afriendship or to have to be in
someone's life and to havesomeone in my life because I
kind of just operate in this.
You can be gone in an instant.
So I don't want to immediatelyhave that attitude when I meet

(05:09):
somebody.
Like I wanted to progress.
But I also understand that likeyou may not be here next week,
you may not be here next year.
So for the time that we knoweach other, let's one another.
But I also recognize that likeyou could be gone yeah so that
sisterly, brotherly bond.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
You know it, it can inch towards it or it can be a
long shot away yeah, no, that'sso real when I think about, like
, what brotherhood means to me,when I think about, like, my
experiences in a historicallyBlack fraternity, and then I
just think about growing up,where what was so significant to

(05:54):
me about a person being abrother instead of a friend is
that, like, friendship in someways has this temporary sort of
connotation to it or it's allbased on maybe frequency or
maybe centered around like athird space.
But Brotherhood has this kind oflong lasting impact where it's

(06:14):
like, if I don't see you forfive years, if I don't see you
for two months, like we gonnapick up right where we left off.
And there is, you know, thetime and the distance constraint
doesn't feel as impactful whenit does with friends versus a
friend.
Like I got friends from college, I got friends from a lot of
different spaces, and if I don'ttalk to them for a while, it's

(06:36):
kind of like, well, I talked toa bit of while, like it's not
always as easy to pick up.
When you were mentoring,mentioning kind of this
portrayal of black men in media,how would you say like
relationships between black menand women are portrayed in media
?

Speaker 2 (06:55):
well, it's like we don't need each other, and I say
this as just understanding that, like Black people need each
other and we also need to earnone another, it is not
guaranteed that Black people aresupposed to get along with each

(07:18):
other.
I think about even one of myfavorite Megan.
Thee Stallion lyrics is don'tcall me sis, because I'm not
your sister, one of my favoriteMegan.
Thee Stallion lyrics is don'tcall me sis because I'm not your
sister and this notion of like.
Just because we're black womenin a room, it could be a bunch
of sisters and it could be justthe two of.
We could be the two black womenin a white social setting.
Don't think because we're blackwomen we're supposed to get

(07:41):
along.
So I think that is in the partof us having to earn one another
and also that Black men andBlack women need each other.
And I think that it's as muchas women being pitted against
each other that it's Black menand Black women being pitted

(08:02):
against each other becauseyou'll see romantic
relationships.
You know if he's not dating thesister, he's this, this, that
and the third.
Or if a Black man speaksagainst Black women, you know
he's probably had two Blackwomen who disrespected him, so
he thinks the whole, every Blackwoman, is a part of this

(08:28):
monoculture.
So I think the media does agreat job at pitting black men
and black women against eachother and I do feel that black
men and black women still needto earn each other.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Black men and Black women still need to earn each
other.
Okay, so I really want to go tothis idea that we need to earn
each other, because when yousaid that, I typed it right away
.
I said, ooh, this isfascinating.
You described what it means,but I want you to go further.
Like, what does it look likefor us to earn each other?
And then something that Ithought of I'm going to preface

(09:05):
this with like, with, like I bein the know, but I don't be
fully in the know.
I'm a reference, a big thingthat's happened, uh, and know
that, like I haven't fully beenfollowing, but I've been
following.
So for me it brings up like thewhole kendrick and drake thing.
Like I've been following, but I, low-key, ain't been fully
following.
Um, and I know that one of thethings that is brought into the
conversation is like Drake'sblackness.

(09:26):
And when you said we need toearn each other, I kind of
thought about like has Drakeearned?
Like I don't want to say ourcommunity, because we're not
monolithic and that looksdifferent, but I don't know if
you know what I'm trying to say,but yeah, what comes up for?
you if you know what I'm tryingto say.
But yeah, what comes?

Speaker 2 (09:43):
up for you.
I think with Drake, a lot ofhis anger comes because one he
wasn't raised with his father,who is a black man, and he was
raised in Canada.
Something that I've noticed forthe most part about black
Canadian men is that they havethere's like a performance of

(10:04):
blackness, as opposed to like alike a boys in the hood kind of
performing a blackness when it'sit should be.
More of this is how yourblackness arrives in black
spaces.
You can be the cornball, youcan be the goofy one.

(10:27):
You don't have to be hard as aBlack man and it's actually
preferred If that is what yougrew up with, if that is what
you're trying, like it's notsomething that you're trying,
it's something that you are thenthat's how you arrive in the
space.
But if you're a cornball, ifyou're goofy, if you're weird

(10:49):
often, as I am, I'm a weirdblack woman.
That is how that isself-described.
For myself, that is how youarrive in the space, and I think
that's what Drake has yet tounderstand.
He thinks baggy jeans andTimberlands and cornrows is
being a black man and it's likeno, wear your.

(11:10):
You know, wear your hair shortand you know.
However, you want to presentyourself like you don't need to
wear Timberlands to be a blackman.
You know there's a lot of pairsof shoes that go on your feet.
So I, in very few respects thatI have empathy for Drake, in

(11:33):
that respect, his blackness iswhat I empathize with him on
because it's him trying to besomething that he already is,
and that's a black man andwhether and even though he is
biracial, he is still a blackman.
You know, and I think with youknow, kendrick really put a

(11:59):
spotlight on that um, just like,especially with the whole, you
are not a colleague, you acolonizer and it's like dang.
To tell a black man that he's acolonizer is some wild stuff
yeah but it's.
But I think that that shouldhave been more of the heart of

(12:20):
the conversation, instead ofjust like oh, it's these two men
beefing, which I hate that it'scalled a beef.
I think Kendrick was regulatingand Drake was being a troll but
, it comes from a place ofinsecurity yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:37):
So it's interesting because I feel what's standing
out to me right now is I'mthinking about growing up like I
grew up mostly all of my lifearound black folks.
The time period I can remembernot being around a lot of black
people is not even in college,but like when I graduated from
college and had my first job andthat was the first time where I

(13:00):
really experienced or felt thisfeeling of like dang.
It's like different out here,but something that I think about
in my own performance ofmasculinity is this association
that I have with black malenessand being hard.
And while I've always been amore gentle, soft spoken person,

(13:23):
I can still remember times inmy life where I've had to prove
that I was hard enough.
Like I think about the fightsthat I got in that were never
about the actual thing as muchas it was.
Like if I don't prove that I'mhard in this setting, like I'm
gonna get punked the rest of mylife.
And then I think back to when Iwas in college.

(13:45):
Something that would be soweird is I remember we would
anytime.
We would go out with friends,we would go to a club or
something, and if I had beendrinking I would notice there
would always be this like needto be ready to fight somebody,
and that's just something I andthen, when I think about the
gender wars for lack of a betterword the gender wars that exist

(14:08):
within Black communities, Ithink so much of like, uh,
misogyny that I hear, likemisogynistic rhetoric that I
hear specifically Black men saycomes from this place of their
gentleness, their softness,their weirdness, their corniness

(14:28):
not being accepted particularlyby, I don't want to say Black
women, but usually it's by likeone or two Black women.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
So there's a lot of Black women and I'll say this In
the names that men are calledbecause of their softness it's
usually terms that are femalerelated.
I'm thinking about the B word,I'm thinking about the P word,
and if you are not block.
You don't want to be calledthose terms because you still

(15:06):
don't want to be associated withanything that isn't perceived
as hard because that's a part ofthe think of the hierarchy as
like a food pyramid.
You know you will being hard isthe top of the top of the
pyramid, so you still don't wantto be associated with these

(15:34):
words, even as you presentyourself as your most authentic
self.

Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, yeah, no, you're so right, like, and when
I think about this hierarchy, Ithink it goes like hard men at
the top and then somewhere onthe bottom is like women and
then like queer men and once youbecome associated with either
population, like your kind ofsocial status is gone.
And then I think about, too, howthat's often reinforced through

(15:59):
media media.
Um, when I think of um, blackmale relationships and I think
of a movie the first movie thatcomes to my mind, which I know
you've seen it because you don'tsee in all the things um, I
think of the wood, like, when Ithink of a movie about black
male fridge, oh my gosh, I thinkof the best man in the wood.

(16:22):
Those are like two movies thatI think of, and one of the
things that's interesting aboutboth of those movies is a theme
that comes from them.
Is that uplifts men in thishierarchy is like the amount of

(16:48):
sexual partners they have, whothose sexual partners are, um,
or as kids, it is like thepursuit to losing your virginity
that you know, welcomes you tomanhood and I also think about,
if you want to mention, thegroup boys in terms of these
movies.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Boys to men these guys knew each other in the wood
it was since middle school andthe best man it had been since
college, which, even though theyare legally adults, they're
still growing into men.
You have your boys, who you'veknown in one place of your life,

(17:29):
are now meeting you in a newplace you're entering, which is
matrimony, which is somethingthat is common between both
films.
There are two characters, orthere are characters in each of
the films that are gettingmarried.
They're entering this new placein their life.

(17:50):
So they could have been freaky,deaky when they were kids,
young adults, but they are nowentering a place where they want
to honor one woman.
So it's like, how do your boysget you to this more adult and
new place in your life when theyknew you and you were a little
freaky, deaky?
Yeah, you know wanting to,wanting to you know, explore

(18:12):
your body and you know thethings that come with growing up
.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
So something you said that I really appreciated is
you mentioned exploring yourbody.
I really appreciate it, as youmentioned exploring your body,
and I think that one of thethings that both, like black
boys, and girls are kind ofrobbed of is just the freedom to
explore their sexuality ingeneral, like I think that the
moment you start becominginterested in sex, you are

(18:40):
labeled fast or like it's sotaboo that that freedom is never
there.
But then what I think is sointeresting about kind of this,
I think of, like you know, whenthe Q-Dogs in college eventually
get married and you'd bethinking like dang, I was
picking people up.
But what fascinates me isLance's character and what

(19:04):
fascinates me the most is thatI've seen it so many times.
What's interesting to me is Icall it football religion, where
, like Lance, is this superreligious guy like really hyper
spiritual, hyper religious, um,wants to be committed to Mia,

(19:24):
right, yes, but then I don'tknow.
One thing I could never getwith Lance is Lance was cheating
all throughout theirrelationship and then, because
Mia happened to not be a virgin,like he was acting like he
couldn't marry her, and I'vealways wrestled with that.
I've struggled.

(19:44):
I can't stand that bad in thisseries.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yes, and if you've seen the best man holiday and
then the later series that theydid, yeah, he has to.
He grapples even deeper withhis faith, grapples even deeper

(20:09):
with his faith.
There's a lot that heexperiences that begs him to
really have a come to jesusmoment yeah, and I also question
like, because in college hedidn't seem so like.
There's maybe one scene wereally see lance in college, but
he's he didn't seem as pious ashe did when he was in the
league.
I mean that man he had a jewelencrusted cross around his neck

(20:34):
Shoot.
If he wasn't carrying afootball, he was carrying a
Bible.
You know he was all in, and soit's just like how do you as
much it's interesting that wementioned about sexuality, but
also how do you grow in yourfaith?
Like if you grew up going tochurch and you're like, yeah, I

(20:57):
don't ever, you will never seeme in a church house again, or
you didn't have that.
You had that growing up and yourfaith has changed in a new way
for you.
So it's like how do you havethese pivotal experiences that
everyone should have access to?

(21:17):
How does that grow from whenyou were a child to now you're
an adult and that's going tocontinue to evolve for the rest
of your life.

Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah, you know, and we didn't plan to go here, but
that even just made me thinkabout church in general and I
think for me, like I'm apreacher's son, so I've spent,
when I tell you I was a churchkid, like was in the church
every day and to this day, bethere close to every day.
I will be there tonight,eventually, and I think about

(21:48):
what church taught me aboutrelationships between men and
women, um, but then I also thinkabout their one is something
that I think is so fundamentalabout the black church church in
terms of, um, um, keeping Blackculture.
In a sense.
That's not the word that I'mlooking for.

(22:09):
Maybe sustaining there's a wordI'm looking for, but I'm
blanking on it Because, if youthink about it, it's like a very
long lasting Black institutionthat has existed for a long time
, where so much culture andhistory lives, and I think about
how difficult it is for manypeople to want to see this space

(22:30):
evolve in certain ways and yetdon't want to leave it, because
to leave it is to leavesomething very core to your
culture.
So I know I just said a lot inthere, but any thoughts that you
have, whether it's I don't knowif you've had experiences in
churches or faith community,what it teaches about kind of

(22:52):
these relationships andfriendships with men and women,
and just the role that Blackculture plays in Black or, I'm
sorry, black the Black churchplays, and just Black life Bible
and you read this, this tonethat talks about how God treated
the poor, how God treated sortof groups of people and then you

(23:17):
look at how society treatsthose very groups of people.

Speaker 2 (23:21):
There's a real disconnect.
So, I think a lot of peoplehave learned to differentiate
spirit and faith and having arelationship with God from I got
to go to church every Sundayand if I don't, I'm going to
hell, and it's the performativepiece of it.

Speaker 3 (23:42):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
So it's the real tangibility to faith and to God
or whoever you serve.
And then how do you grapplewith the sort of physical place
of it being a church, forexample?

(24:04):
So you know, I'm friends withgay people.
I have friends from othervarious backgrounds.
I'm not going to stop beingfriends with them because of who
they are.
In fact, that draws me closerto them, because they stand 10
toes down in who they are and Iknow that God created, created

(24:28):
everyone good or bad but they,but God created these people.
So how do I serve as a vesselwith what I have, to either
stand with these people fromvarious groups or to learn from
them, or even both?

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Absolutely, absolutely.
You know one of the things thatwas interesting to me too that
you mentioned.
So we talked a little bit aboutthis idea that we need to earn
each other.
I am thinking about how thislooks, different for different
Black communities, different fordifferent Black communities,
and one of the things that Ithink is I don't want to say

(25:15):
difficult, but maybe somethingthat I've been processing is the
target boycott.
It's a very big thing inMinnesota, I'm sure, like
globally, but you know theirheadquarters are, it's here, and

(25:54):
a lot of what I see peopletalking about is, like you know,
we need a leader because backin the legacy of redlining and
racial covenants in Minnesotaand how that has left many Black
communities specifically inareas where Target might be
their only option.
And then I think about are wewilling?
Who's going to stand in the gapfor those folks who?
You have a thought?

(26:15):
Go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
I live in Los Angeles .
Close to I live around thecorner from a Ralph's, across
the street, is an Amazon Fresh.
What exactly is an Amazon Fresh?
I don't think we got those.

(26:37):
It's amazon, but a grocerystore so it's like amazon
products and all of that.
You will not find me steppingfoot into an amazon fresh, just
that's just my personal feeling.
Live not too far from othergrocery stores as well, so I
have access to grocery stores.

(27:00):
And you talking about fooddeserts is absolutely imperative
because even in a metropolislike Los Angeles, where
everything is a driving distanceaway, there is still pockets,
and whether in even in wealthyadjacent communities on the West

(27:21):
side or even more, I'll say,just poorer communities on the
East side of.
Los Angeles.
A commonality is that there arefood deserts, there are pockets
where the closest grocery storeis 15 minutes away driving, so

(27:47):
don't even account for the bussystem, or even if you got to
walk or if you got a big bike.
So if you run out of something.
You better think about newdinner plans, because you're not
just going to be able to hop ina car and it's a quick trip.
And I say that because LosAngeles is a metropolis where

(28:09):
you would think there's grocerystores every mile, every half
mile away.
So you do have people wheretheir only resource is a Walmart
super center or a great targetwhere it's like those massive
kind of Costco looking targets.
So I don't fault those peoplefor shopping at those places

(28:32):
because that's the greatestresource that you have.
But for me and for mine, who Iknow I can shop, I don't have to
shop at Target and Target hurta little bit because I have so
many memories with Target.
But once I found out that theycut dei, and that is again just
me speaking I was like, yeah, Idon't, we don't have to go there

(28:56):
any.
Like oh, I don't really shop attarget, like it's not a
reliable, it's not reliable forme anymore, because it count, it
accounts into my values.
how can I talk about equalityand equity and diversity and
inclusivity and all of theserich key attributes and then go

(29:18):
shop at somewhere where theydon't even check for me?
I don't have to shop at Amazon,fresh or Target.
I can go to certain places.
I'm going to do it for myselfand for the people who can't you
know can't leave shopping atWalmart, and this doesn't make

(29:38):
them a bad person.
It makes the system and thecommunities that are built for
them the enemy.
So, you do what you got to dofor you and yours and I'm going
to do it for me and mine andeveryone who can't do it.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
Absolutely.
I had recently stopped using,or recently like kind of parted
ways with Kindle, where I'm likea huge e-reader I don't buy
physical books ever andself-published author you and I
use like KDP, which is Kindledirect publishing.
Now what's fascinating is I'mcurrently in this process where

(30:19):
I really want to move my bookoff of Kindle and find somewhere
else to kind of host thepublishing.
But what's been fascinating isthe way that Kindle has, or the
way that Amazon has literallybeen trying to have, a monopoly
over books where, like, if yourbook is on Kindle Unlimited, a
great way that like boosts yoursales and that kind of gives you

(30:40):
free promotion which, like Ithink you know, kdp's most
marginalized authors areprobably using, are probably
using you can't put your bookanywhere else.
Like it literally locks you inand makes it so hard for you to
publish your book any other way.
So then you think about how,like, a lot of these systems are

(31:03):
built to kind of have amonopoly so that they make it
hard for you to leave it.
But what I appreciate aboutwhat you were saying too around,
like your decision to not go toAmazon Fresh or to not go to
Target you are also doing thisfor the people who can't, and I
think that that is such a formof earning each other mind is,

(31:34):
with black communities being acommunity of many communities,
I'm always thinking about whatways, you know, let me tell you
a story to get to what I'mtrying to say.
So I think back to the uprisingin Minneapolis after the murder
of George Floyd.
At the time I was living likefive minutes away five, 10
minutes away from whereeverything was happening, and I

(31:54):
remember driving through thearea and it feeling like I was
in a war zone.
I remember actually being atlike the first protest before
everything started andeverything was peaceful, it was
cool.
And then officers startedshooting these like I don't know
what they were.
I think they were kind of likesmoke bombs and I remember we

(32:15):
ran and as we were running to aparking lot the parking lot
we're targeting, cub Foods is wesaw these police cars with like
these trucks with the door openand guns pointed.
And we was out, door open andguns pointed, um, and we was out

(32:37):
.
But I think back to during thattime.
What I feel like is never toldin the story of the uprising is
how it was mostly young black,lgbt plus folks who stayed when
everyone left, like when wethink about george floyd square
and who was like holding thatspace down.
It was like the most vulnerablein our community and you know

(32:59):
why?

Speaker 2 (33:00):
because when you think about pride is a riot
pride started as a riot andpride the the police raids at
Stonewall Inn.
So it was a bar in New YorkCity.
So that was how pride startedas a riot.

(33:21):
So we you know gay, lesbian, bi,trans people and the allies all
celebrate, they're joyous.
I saw on the side of a bus herein Los Angeles an ad for World
Pride DC in a couple of months,because June is rapidly

(33:42):
approaching Yep, it's coming upTo see just the pride and the
rainbow flag and now adding thetrans flag and the black and
brown stripes to it, to evenexpand the fabric and the
history of this community.
Community without mentioningtheir foot, their feet, their

(34:10):
blood, sweat and tears inrioting, in protests.

Speaker 3 (34:18):
And so when you mentioned that, it's so profound
that even generations later,this is still, the work is still
here, the, the strength of itis here as well yeah, yeah, well
, and then I think too of likethe ways in which I feel like

(34:40):
black, lgbt plus folks are justleft out of a lot of
conversations and or even likeblack folks who are living with
disabilities, where I wonderlike there's a need.
I'm blanking on how to say itthe way I want to say it, but I
keep thinking about this idea weneed to earn each other um, and

(35:01):
how there are populationswithin our community that it
seems like we are comfortablewith kind of continuously being
left out or being treated likecrap.
But like I think about how manypeople I feel like draw the
line where, you know, I'm a DEIpractitioner.

(35:25):
I lead an anti-racism programfor a health care organization,
lead an anti-racism program fora healthcare organization and
while we have been doing thisradical, like anti-racism work,
uh, to advance health equity,people are down for the cause
Like they.
They wit it like well, no,black people are down for the
cause.
They wit it Right.
But I'm like the projectmanager of bill of building out

(35:48):
this, out this curriculum that'sabout health inequities that
LGBT plus patients experience,and I know what's going to be
fascinating is how a lot of thepeople who are allies in our
anti-racism work are no longergoing to be allies in this work.
And then you think about how,like the health outcomes of like

(36:11):
Black queer folks, often evenworse, and yeah, just I think
about this culture of nope, butthat's where I draw the line.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
And I think a lot of it is people having unlearning
to do.
Yeah, is people havingunlearning to do, but telling
someone that the way that youoperate is foul and it is it
brings nothing fruitful to thework that you are down to do.

Speaker 3 (36:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
You're not down for everyone.
You can't be down for one thingand you're we need your full
mind, body and presence whenthis work is happening.
So in some spaces you made, youknow, you're like, yeah, I'm, I

(37:07):
am down to do the DEI work, butthen when it causes, when it's
like, okay, disabled or peoplewith disabilities, or the
LGBTQIA community, or you know,we'll even go back to biracial
people, you know, whatever thatlooks like, you know.

(37:29):
You know if you're you're blackand another race, you can't
just be down for one thing andthen, when another community is
a part of it, you're like, yeah,this is where I tap out.
And then telling someone thatthey have unlearning to do can
cause this friction that youdidn't want from the beginning,

(37:53):
but it's like, yeah, you havesome unlearning to do.
So I think a lot of people haveto come to their own accord,
and that may be, you know, theyhear someone speak who is in a
community or who's from acommunity that they don't want
to work with.
It may come a year from now, itmay come when they're on their
deathbed, but it has.

(38:15):
Unfortunately, it may not comeat the time that you want them
to, but the hope is that thesepeople recognize that the work
isn't fruitful if it isn't foreverybody.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
Yeah, well, in follow up question to that, I really
love this idea of like we needto earn each other Like.
I love it so much I'm gonnatalk about it a lot.
I would always say where I gotit from.
Yes, what does this even looklike?
You know, across thedifferences, like, like, what
does this look like with?
I think about intergenerationalrelationships, where I think

(38:55):
about there's like elders in ourcommunity who are going to hold
on to certain things that weknow may be harmful, and like it
seems like there's little hopein ever changing their mind, and
yet elders play a huge role inour community.
And what does it look like forus to be able to earn each other

(39:16):
across, like some of thesedifferences or barriers that may
exist?

Speaker 2 (39:21):
I'll speak of it from a church perspective.
There are a lot of, and youknow, generational talk.
I kind of roll my eyes at itand I guess that's just reading
the news and it's like Gen Z,things like this, and now you're
bringing Gen Alpha to it andit's like they're still learning
algebra.
Relax whatever but.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
I'll say a quick thing about that.
Yes, I just got to add to likeI think we also forget that
generational research has anagenda and it's literally just
about out of market to aspecific generation and it's
really not based in like youngpeople of color typically.
So anytime we're always talkingabout Gen Z, this Gen Z that

(40:06):
I'm like we are talking aboutwhite people and like we're also
talking about research.
That's not very accurate.
But yes.
Okay, I'll be quiet.
So.

Speaker 2 (40:16):
I'll speak from a church perspective.
There are a lot of millennialswho do not go to church anymore,
and I think, maybe late Gen X,but definitely much of
millennials do not go to churchanymore, and it's either because
they have to work through thetrauma that they have gone

(40:38):
through as a child, eitherbecause of their sexuality,
either because of who they areas a person, something that
they've experienced that carriesa deep wound with them.
So it's like our elders are likewell, why aren't y'all going to
church?
And you need to be, you know,you need to be the pastor and

(41:02):
you need to be doing altar calls, and we don't get this.
And where are all the babies inthe children's church and all
of this stuff, the babies andthe children's church and all of
this stuff?
And it's like, instead ofunderstanding how to evolve the
church and to make it morewelcoming to those who have
either dealt with trauma, whohave who loves someone, who has
dealt with trauma, or evenpeople of that generation who

(41:25):
have unchecked trauma that theyhaven't worked through, that
there's a real disconnect amongthe generations of how to really
help the church evolve and it'snot saying, well, forget God.
Like they're finding Godsomewhere else.

(41:47):
They're finding God in the park, in the snow, in their car.
You know, talking to God on theway home like thank you for
this day.
It's not that God is lost, it'sthe vessel which is the church
is just completely dismantledand not in a way that helps

(42:08):
generations evolve.
People are going to find theirfaith in their community and
other places.
Many churches are missing themark of how to really invite
that in.

Speaker 3 (42:22):
Yeah, no, I think you're spot spot on.
I want to shift gears a littlebit, but still related.
I want to shift gears a littlebit, but still related.
You know, we've been talkingabout us just needing to earn
each other as a community, whichI think this applies to, like
so many communities, of thinkingabout what does it mean to just
like earn people.
But then you mentioned tosomething earlier around how we

(42:45):
need each other and as a personwho's sick of the gender wars
like I'm very sick of it I alsothink that there are some things
that I hear get brought up,that they don't get brought up
in ways that I think areproductive or constructive, but
like real feelings that I oftenfeel like people need to address

(43:09):
, or things or conversationsthat we need to have.
But I'm curious if you have anythoughts of like, how do we I
don't want to say, engage in thegender wars because I don't
think we need the gender wars,because we need each other, but
how do we engage kind of inthese, in some of the topics
that come up in theseconversations that might, that

(43:30):
might be kind of real or that,like?
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
I think it's it's begins with respect.

Speaker 3 (43:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:38):
And respect is something that you earn.
It's not I mean, it's not umdemanded.
Like you know, you don't demandrespect from people.
It's something that you earn,it's something that you bring.
It's something that you bringin your presence that makes
people stand up.

(43:59):
Yeah, and so we even talk aboutthis when men are together and
they say something foul, andthen everyone laughs and then
that one person, who knows thatwhat, what that person said was
foul doesn't say anythingbecause he just wants to be one
of the boys.
So it's like how do you checkthe people around you to say

(44:24):
like yo, that's not cool, or yo,that's not how you talk to
anybody, or that word.
That word needs to never comeout of your mouth.
And how do you and I think whenyou Make those observations to
someone, they can be, like youknow, screw you Get out my

(44:46):
presence, but you stood in yourintegrity and said this isn't
necessary.
This isn't what we need amongsteach other to really thrive.
We already, as Black people,have targets and enemies against
us.

Speaker 3 (45:04):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
We don't need that amongst each other.
We don't need to hate eachother.
We got plenty of people who dothat for us.
So when someone checks you andsays like yo, that's not cool,
sit with it for a second yeah,let it simmer let it like, okay,

(45:25):
you might be saying something,because I think the issue is a
lot of a lot of particularlyblack men don't know better,
because they've either seen itin their house they grew up with
it in their households They'veseen it in their, their
neighborhoods.
They all they know is one thingI need to be hard in order to

(45:49):
survive.
I need to wear my clothes, behard in order to survive.
I need to wear my clothes thisway in order to survive.
I need to talk this way inorder to survive.
I got to disrespect this personbefore they could ever say
something about me.
So we need each other to be ableto share our experiences with

(46:10):
each other.
There's a lot that I've beenprotected from in my life
because of what my parentsprovided for me, and there's
also a lot that I've experienced, and in both circumstances, I
can share that information withkids that I mentor or with kids
that I've worked with, and itmay resonate with them or it may

(46:33):
not, but I shared somethingthat's that can be pivotal to
them, and to show them like youdon't have to operate in certain
way, you don't have to survive,you can thrive, and I think
that that's how we work in aplace where we show that we need
one another.
We're not surviving, we'rethriving.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Oh my gosh, you just brought up a lot, phoebe.
You brought up a lot.
One thing that I think is soimportant is that some of the
safe space culture has reallykind of misled us in terms of,
like, what it means to createspaces that are actually safe,
because I think a lot of themoperate under the assumption

(47:18):
that I have declared this spaceto be safe.
That means that everybody'sgoing to respect each other.
That means that, like,everybody's going to be safe.
When it is not, it is notearned, it is not worked towards
, but it's kind of a demand thatwe, it's something we expect of
people without even knowing ifthey are agreeing to that or not

(47:40):
.
So that's the first thing thatcame up to me.
And then, when you were talkingabout, like, how do we check
people, it brought me back tocollege people.
It brought me back to college.
One of my friends she's a Blackwoman, still my friend today.
I remember she like did thisreality check with me and it was
.
It was shortly after I crossand I you know she, she had this

(48:04):
conversation with me in my dormroom.
Like, I don't know somethingabout you has changed, and in my
head my initial response waslike but you don't know,
something about you has changed.
And in my head my initialresponse was like but you don't
even know me like that, like youknow me, but you don't know me,
like I've always been this way,and it wasn't until years later
where I really sat with that.
I remember reaching out to herand I was like you know you were
right.
Like there was definitely thingsthat I there were things that I

(48:29):
was going for, that I wouldhave never went for.
Like there were things that,post Greek life, I was okay with
people saying or there wasprobably even jokes that I would
laugh at, people that I evenhung out with that I would never
hang out with.
But then when you werementioning how black men don't
know better, you brought me backto the Pan-African Student

(48:51):
Union when I was in college,which was like equivalent of
most places, BSU, and a tensionthat we saw in that space a lot
is that Black men were neverthere and the reason why and
this was true at the college Iwent to, where I went to was
right across the street from theUniversity of Minnesota, so
like the campuses interacted alot, it was true, for, like all

(49:12):
the campuses, Black men stayedaway from those spaces and a lot
of it was because they wereasking genuine questions, didn't
come out right and they wouldget got together and sometimes
in ways that I think weren'talways productive, and I can
understand why they weregathered the way that they were

(49:35):
gathered.
Like I totally get it and itjust makes me think about sorry,
I know I'm sharing a lot ofstories but it then makes me
think about when I was anadvisor in a higher education
setting I was running a programthat was for Black men higher
education setting.
I was running a program thatwas for Black men.
Most of these Black men were thechildren of African immigrants.

(49:56):
So a lot of West Africanstudents, a lot of East African
students A few of them werestudents, were Black students
who we would say were like thedescendants of folks who were
enslaved.
I had two that were, you know,descendants of folks who were
enslaved.
I had two that were, you know,descendants of folks who were
enslaved and I remember they gotinto some trouble, not real

(50:22):
trouble, but they kind of gotinto a little thing at the
beginning of the of the schoolyear because they kept referring
to women as the B word Like,and it made me think of growing
up that that was the norm, Likegrowing up the B word was like
the synonym for women and the Nword was, you know that meant

(50:42):
man.
So I kind of knew and I'm not,you know, saying that it's not
harmful but I totally got whythey did that and the
institution took it very, veryseriously.
I think there were Black folkswho were the children of African
immigrants, who grew up in moresuburban areas, who had never

(51:05):
experienced that culture, and Ialways wish that there would
have been more of an ability tohold space for, yes, this is
harmful and let's talk aboutlike why?
Let's just talk about this, youknow, in an authentic way of

(51:25):
yep, this is a norm in someplaces and it's totally
acceptable and okay.
And like, part of growing upand expanding your horizon is
realizing that we're not allliving by the same rules.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
And also think about like where the East African and
West African students outside oftheir household may have
learned that it was that thosewords were OK and that's through
media and you know whether it'sthrough music or through a
movie that they watch and youknow you'll have some shows that

(51:59):
do like a kind of after schoolspecial of like.
This woman got called a certainword.
There was a war, and then theyrealized that calling her that
word is not OK, or calling themthat word is not OK, and so
that's where media plays a roleof just like.
how are these people, who mayhave not grown up in the same

(52:22):
setting?
But, also have the sameunderstanding that, like it may
be okay in some people's mindsto call these people or call
someone that word, but most ofus understand that that word is
not okay as to call someone youcall them by their name.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
You know, they have a name.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
You refer to them as a name If you're not calling
them a child of God don't callthem anything or anything of
that, like Don't call themanything else.
But it's also how.
Where are you getting thatinformation from?
What access of information thatyou have.
So you can grow up in thesuburbs, but you still got

(53:03):
access to the same movies as alot of kids and you're probably
all gathered with your friendswatching this one TV show that
you're not supposed to.
That's why I find, like thewhole, there was like the
parents association, likeagainst TV or something like
that, and it was, I feel likewhen I was a teenager there was

(53:26):
so much of like regulatingtelevision and it's like no
matter, you can unplugtelevision, like no more access
to it, and you will still havekids who have access to the
information that's being talkedabout on the television so it's
like you might as well explainto kids like why this is wrong,

(53:48):
instead of letting someone elsedo that work yes, yes, you just
brought me back.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
My dad used to block bet.
We would watch 106 and parkafter school every day.
Couldn't stand it, so heblocked BET, he blocked MTV and
he blocked VH1 and yet, like itdidn't do anything because we
still had access, in some ways,to the information.
So, yeah, I don't know.

(54:16):
I just keep going back to tojust the way that, like our
individual socialization, thisprocess where we learn what's
right and what's wrong, how thatjust shows up differently and
how more and more, I see myselfmaking the assumption that, like

(54:36):
, we all have the same rules andI'm learning that it's very
different.
A random example that I think ofis I definitely grew up that
when you see black people outand about in the world, you nod
your head, like if it's an olderperson, you probably gonna give
a head nod down.
If it's a younger person, youmight nod your head up.
Nobody does that in minnesotaanymore.

(54:56):
It is the wildest thing for me.
That's.
That's actually a wild thingfor me now, where I feel like at
one point, whether it was workschool, like when you saw other
black folks there and we kind oftalked about this a little bit
earlier too, and maybe it's memaking the assumption that I've
already earned uh folks when Ihaven't.

(55:19):
But you know I was.
So I remember the first job Ihad.
I kind of assumed the Blackfolks were going to take me like
under their wing and I thoughtthat they were going to like
show me things.
I thought they were going tolike tell me, you know, tell me
what's real, you know, tell mewhat's up, things that I would
probably do and still do.
I think that when I encountercolleagues who are Black and yet

(55:44):
now I'm just I'm thinking aboutlike wow, the assumptions that
are made and how me believingthat I probably have earned
people when I have not, but alsoacknowledging that, like we
have all not been socialized tohave this kind of universal
brotherhood Some of us have,some of us have not.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
Yes, and you understand that not everyone was
raised as you were.
Not everyone has the sameaccess of information as you or
the person listening or just anyother, any other person.
Um, you know, we don't have.

(56:28):
We don't have, we all don'thave access to the same
information and we don't allhave the same experiences, where
, again, not a monolith.
So it's just like, how do youshare that information in a way
that you can only hope thatsomeone receives it?
And again, it may not be, itmay be immediate.

(56:49):
Oh, I didn't think about, oh, Ididn't think that that joke
would be offensive.
I say it all the time with myboys, or it may be the next day,
five months a year, or again ontheir deathbed.
But you just hope, you can onlyhope, that the information that
you share with someone, how you, how you approach that

(57:11):
information, instead of likebeing you know someone who's
like, oh, you're supposed toknow that, because that can be a
refrain, like I don't want tosay, I don't want to hear
anything from you if that's howyou're approaching it, but just
you can only hope that theinformation that you share with
someone, the guidance that youprovide to someone, will land.

(57:33):
Whether or not they receive it,that's not your responsibility,
but you share somethingprofound with them that will
hopefully change theirperspective of how they treat
other people, and then thatreverberates.
That person, teaches them andyou can be funny and you can be
the center of attention withoutdisrespecting people.

Speaker 3 (57:53):
Absolutely, and you know, I think there is a need.
When I think, just in myrelationships with men, I think
one of the struggles of gettingthere is that correction, or
yeah, correction in any form isoften seen as like disrespect,

(58:15):
like I think there can be somuch ego or so much of like.
There's phrases that I used tohear that I can't.
I ain't said them in so longthat I can't I kind of forgot
them.
But so an example that I thinkof is like if they're and I
remember this more so when I wasyounger but if whatever a man

(58:39):
and a woman did was kind oftheir business and there was
something that was feminineabout involving yourself in it,
questioning it, or yeah, like Ithink back to I had a friend
when I was, and I probablydidn't go about it the best way,
but I had a friend who I didn'tthink was treating like their

(59:02):
girlfriend, right, and Istraight up told the girlfriend
I was like I think you shouldleave this man, like I don't.
You know, I mean I would tellhim like hey, I think this was
weird, like I would tell thegirl where he would listen, like
hey, this seems like bad andthat was such a it took a toll

(59:24):
on my friendship with this guy.
It wasn't until years laterthat, I think, when we had grown
mature, that you know we wereable to rekindle still like one
of one of my best friends today.
But yeah, just think about howthere's such this culture of
you're not supposed to sayanything and if you do say
something, that makes you lessof a man.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
And that's how these actions, words, experiences
continue.

Speaker 3 (59:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
You have a lot of Black men.
You know younger Black men whothey watch their mother, their
aunt, a loved one, a friend youknow being being disrespected
and that comes in a myriad ofways.
So then you kind of developthis idea.

(01:00:17):
You can develop two ideas.
Either that's not cool I don'tlike how that happened or you
think that that's the way thatyou're supposed to treat someone
, and I hope that it's theformer more than the latter um,
but it oftentimes it's more ofjust like.

(01:00:37):
This is what I saw, so I goingto repeat that action.
So you just you have to again,just just as your friend years
later understood like yeah yeah.
Destin, you were right.
I didn't realize at the time,but you were right and that

(01:00:57):
hopefully your friends, lovedones, or even just someone who
you're just in a in a settingwith, understand that, that
understands that it's not comingfrom a place of disrespect.
It's coming from a place of, orlike you're supposed to, you're
correcting the world order.

(01:01:19):
It's just you recognizingsomething for what it is and
hoping that that person does too.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
Yeah, as we're getting close to time, there's
something I want to ask youthat's around the content that
you create.
Something that I think about,especially when it comes to
resisting some of the harmfulthings that we've talked about,

(01:01:46):
is the ability to be able toexplore in your mind, and one of
the experiences that two thingsthat I think have drastically
changed my life is when I wentto a private liberal arts
college.
I met free black folks Like Imet black people who kind of
reminded me of like Will Smithand Jada Pinkett's kids, where

(01:02:08):
they were just free, like they,they didn't care.
Some of them was walking aroundbarefoot, they were wearing
onesies in the middle of the day, and that drastically changed
my life.
And then that like coupled withreading and not like reading
self-help books or academictexts, but just like really

(01:02:28):
reading Black fiction and seeinghow one diverse Blackness is,
like how and being able.
What I love about literature isthe way that it can kind of open
your mind to certain thingswithout you even knowing about
it, or like the ways that it canchallenge bias that you have,

(01:02:50):
challenge ideas that you havearound the world and you don't
even really notice yourself.
You don't even really noticethat that's what's happening.
What role do you think thatbooks play like in a person's
individual and collect in, likeour collective liberation?

Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
there are gateways in our vessels to know that there
are black people in particularlytraditional to just
traditionally published spaces.
You know, your, your penguinrandom house, your shine through
your simon and schuster.

(01:03:29):
All of those um big traditionalpublishing houses have
published black people, and forhow difficult it is to get a
book published and then topublish a book that is about
Black people.
That is about our experiences,how unique and how non-unique

(01:03:54):
these experiences are amongBlack people, but they teach us
something.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
They affirm us.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
That is what books do .
I am not a self-help person.
I love memoir as a form ofself-help.
I last month I read CicelyTyson's autobiography and it's
extraordinary.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
It's on my list.
Did you do the audio book orthe?

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
written the way you are to e-readers that is, me
with audiobooks For her to havebeen in her.
I think she died like two weeksafter her book was published.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
Wow, did she narrate the audio?

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Yes.
Oh, I got to get it, it wasextremely close between her
publishing the book and when sheeventually passed on, and so
books are our gateways andvessels to affirm us as black
people and our experiences, andeven if you know when you are a

(01:05:01):
non-black person, you betterwrite about us correctly.
Okay, because don't have us inhere as the dude in the
passenger side, because Blackmen aren't all scrubs, okay, and
don't have you know the sistergirl affirming the white woman
so that she could feel goodabout herself.
affirming the white woman sothat she could feel good about

(01:05:22):
herself.
You better make sure you betterbe writing about Black people
as well as Black people writingthemselves.
So that is what books do for us, and it can be folklore, or it
could be as a memory of being atyour family reunion cookout,

(01:06:07):
you having an understanding andoutlook into someone else's life
who is a part of the communitythat you are a part of, and that
is being a Black person.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
Yes, I even think about how, when I read books, I
experience being seen in waysthat I don't know if movies like
does for me, and maybe it'sbecause I think when you're
watching something like there isa visual that you are kind of
working with and if you can'tsee yourself directly, sometimes

(01:06:33):
in that person, but when I readbooks, like I feel seen.
I mean, I remember when I was inhigh school I read Native Son
and Black Boy by Richard Wright.
School I read Native Son andBlack Boy by Richard Wright and
I felt seen in a way that I justwish I could, which is weird to
think, especially think aboutNative Son.
We're like I don't know why,but in a way I felt so seen in a

(01:06:57):
way that I can't even describethat it awakened something in me
, like something just becamecurious, something wanted more
from reading those two books andI just want I always see a lot
of men get caught in like thisalpha, and I think black men
kind of get caught in it toothis like alpha male mentality

(01:07:18):
where it's all aboutself-actualizing and reading
things that lead to you becomingricher or smarter, and I'm
always like I just want Blackmen to read fantasy or to just
read get lost in a book, justfor fun.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
Yes, and I think like there's two television shows
that immediately come to mindfor me.
I think about the Wayansbrothers that comedy and just
how it's literal brotherhoodbetween Sean and Marlon, and

(01:07:56):
they can.
They can have a wholeshenanigan, that episode, but at
the end they're going to giveeach other a kiss, you know, you
know, on the forehead, whatever, and then they're going to hug
each other because, at the endof the day, they're all each
other has, along with all theirsiblings, but that's what they

(01:08:17):
have together.
And then you and I have talkedabout I've told you about this
show, but it's called Johnson.
It's on Bounce TV but it's alsoon Hulu.
All the four current seasonsare on Hulu and it's about these
four black men, keith Jarvis,greg and Omar.
Could not be more differentfrom each other, but they're

(01:08:39):
bonded by having the same lastname, johnson.
And it's again this they'veknown each other since grade
school and they're watching eachother become men and all their,
all the responsibilities, thedownfalls and the lessons that
come with being a human being.
And so it's four black men andit's just special to be able to

(01:09:02):
watch them help each other grow,and no matter their
socioeconomic status they're,they're all well-to-do men, but
they're still bonded by who theywere as kids, watching each
other grow into men.
So those are two shows that Ileave you all with.

(01:09:24):
If you've not watched theWayans Brothers, it's from the
90s, early 2000s, but it stilljust really resonates to today
of just like how do black men,especially through comedy and
through humor, really bond witheach other?

Speaker 3 (01:09:44):
Can I add one more example?

Speaker 2 (01:09:45):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
I also feel like Will Smith and Carlton, like a
similar thing, where there'sjust this they can go through
all their like riffraff and Ialso love that.
As the show progresses youlearn that there is just such an
acceptance of who they are,like they kind of realize that
Will is always going to be Willand Carlton is always going to

(01:10:09):
be Carlton, and it is somethingthat they cannot change about
each other and they learn tolike love, like love each other
so deeply, despite being twovery different people.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
And when you were talking about being in a
fraternity, I think about theepisode when Will and Carlton
are pledging and the guy in thefraternity tells Carlton, you're
not Black, and Carlton, saysthe hell.
I'm not.
I will, absolutely, you know.
Don't let the sweater vest andthe penny loafers or those boat

(01:10:42):
shoes fool you.
I am a Black man, my mother isa Black woman, my father is a
Black man, my sisters are Black,my butler is Black, everything
about me is Black.
Don't ever get it twisted, andit's just it's one of the most
special episodes that amongstmany episodes that the Fresh

(01:11:05):
Prince of Bel-Air has given us.

Speaker 3 (01:11:07):
Yes, and I even love in that episode that Will was
also like bet.
We finna bounce.
Like yes, he was very much likeif my cousin can't be a part of
it, I'm not either, and I lovethat type of solidarity that
Will showed in that moment aslike a black man who does fit in
many places, or like who, yeah.
So I always just think back toto that part too.

(01:11:30):
Where will is refusing, right,he's like I'm.
It's either both of us or noneof us yes, and it's just.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
There's so much rich shows and television and media,
despite what may be saidotherwise, I also want to leave
people.
The Brothers with MorrisChestnut, Shemar Mordiel-Hugley
and Bill Bellamy is just afantastic example.

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
I haven't seen that one in a minute.
Yeah, I haven't seen it in aminute either.

Speaker 2 (01:12:06):
But I mean literally the brothers and how they take
care of each other.
I wouldn't be a Marvel fan if Ididn't mention the Falcon and
the Winter Soldier.
That TV show.
Um, it's with Anthony Mackey ashe's becoming, um, captain
America, and then Sebastian Stanbeing the Winter Soldier, and

(01:12:29):
just you know, not necessarilylooking at black men, but just
how a black man is entering anew space, this heroism that
he's taking the mantle fromSteve Rogers um, and just how he
bonds with the Winter Soldier'sfashion stand being a white man

(01:12:52):
.
Um, I also just startedwatching New York Undercover.
It's another show from the 90swith, uh, it's on Hulu with
Malik Yoba and Michael Lorenzoplaying uh, williams and Torres,
who are undercover detectives,and just like how you watch
their relationship.
They should literally just bepartners who work together on

(01:13:17):
the force, but they really getinvolved with each other's lives
or in each other's lives andjust like how that unfolds.
And then two last things thefilm the blackening.
If you have not watched thatfilm, it's, it's black people
who go on vacation and then areterrorized, but it's a comedy, I

(01:13:39):
mean it's.
It's absolutely quotable,hilarious, but they're bonded by
fear.
So it's, it's absolutelyquotable, hilarious, but they're
bonded by fear.
So it's like, how did they?
It tackles a lot of like whatwe've been talking about as far
as relationships betweenstraight men and queer men and
black women and black men andjust how that operates, and that

(01:14:02):
can be um horror in itself, butit can also be something that
really bonds us.
And then, of course, atlanta yes, yes um, just like the
quirkiness of atlanta,especially if you compare it to
the film atl, which is could notbe more different but shows

(01:14:23):
Atlanta and all its beauty andsides, especially as Black
people.

Speaker 3 (01:14:29):
Oh my gosh, there's something really powerful that
I'm experiencing, as you'resharing this.
I think a nugget that I'mtaking away is that there's so
many dope examples that arealready out there.
So many dope examples that arealready out there, and I think
that sometimes one of myfrustrations like in this work
around, you know, unpackingpatriarchal masculinity is that

(01:14:50):
sometimes we make healthymasculinity appear to be this
box that, like black men, one donot fit in and like it's.
It's kind of trying to liberatepeople from one box but putting
them in a different one.
Um, and through these examples,as you're naming them, or for
the ones that I've seen, I'mlike you're so right Like there

(01:15:11):
are examples of these enrichingand powerful relationships
between men that we can learnfrom that.
We've already seen that we'veprobably grown up with, um, but
just kind of have to watch itwith a fresh lens and see what
is it saying to us even today.
Another thing I want to oh mybad, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:15:31):
Just top of my head also family matters.

Speaker 3 (01:15:34):
You know, Eddie and.

Speaker 2 (01:15:36):
Waldo, eddie and Urkel.
You know the three of themtogether.
You know I could give you awhole list, a whole scroll, but
just know that there arebeautiful representations of
Black men in media.
Don't let the media fool you.

Speaker 3 (01:15:56):
Now, where can people connect with your brilliance?
I know people are listening andthey're like look, we want the
book, we want whatever, whateverwe can get.
How can people connect?

Speaker 2 (01:16:08):
You can follow me at dried ink pen on Instagram.
I'm usually posting about mywork at Feminist Book Club.
You can follow Feminist BookClub at your Feminist Book Club
just to see the profound workthat we're doing rebuilding as

(01:16:30):
now a worker-owned platform.
That's something that has beenworked on for the past nearly
two years now nearly two yearsnow.
So just keeping in touch inthose spaces.
I'm so thankful to have hadthis opportunity to be here and

(01:16:50):
to speak and just dust in allthe work that you're doing, to
have conversations.
That's where all of thisextends from is just learning
from one another.
Who I am has really just begun.