S3, E8: Reshaping Masculinity with Dr. Jason Larocque (@coachlarocque)

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What happens when a 45-year-old man experiences catcalling for the first time? For Dr. Jason Larocque, that uncomfortable moment on St. Patrick's Day provided a striking glimpse into what many women experience routinely – feeling unsafe, self-conscious, and vulnerable in public spaces. This revelation is just one of the powerful insights shared in our conversation about masculinity, emotional awareness, and creating spaces where boys can truly thrive.

Jason Larocque, an all-boys educator with nearly 20 years of experience, shares insights on masculinity, gender equity, and creating spaces where boys can develop authentic identities beyond harmful cultural messaging. His personal "fish out of water" moment experiencing catcalling gave him newfound understanding of what women regularly face, while his doctoral research revealed how men's healing journeys impact their ability to guide boys effectively.

In today's episode we discuss the following:

• Creating school environments where boys can express vulnerability, discuss emotions, and develop authentic identities
• The importance of being "co-conspirators" with boys rather than lecturing them
• How patriarchy creates a pattern of privilege paired with emotional neglect for boys
• The transformative power of therapy and building emotional vocabulary
• The impact of men modeling vulnerability and emotional awareness
• Building deeper male relationships through shared experiences and vulnerability
• Helping boys develop multi-faceted identities beyond sports or single achievements
• Countering the "manosphere" messaging that emphasizes strength and domination over connection and community

For more information on Jason's work and speaking engagements on healthy masculinity, team building, culture, and gender equity, visit https://www.coachlarocque.com/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
I get up and I get down.
I must struggle till the day isdone.
I just want to be myself.
I just want to be myself today.
Wanna know just who I am.

(00:20):
Who I am has really just begun.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
All right, welcome back everyone to another episode
of Rethinking Manhood.
I have a super dope guest withme named Jason.
Today, and before Jasonintroduces themselves, I was
thinking earlier this week aboutthe role that systems of
oppression play.
I was thinking earlier thisweek about the role that systems

(01:01):
of oppression play and thatwhen you benefit from a system
of oppression, aware thatthere's disparities that exist
based on you know, you havingthis identity, and you don't
know until usually somethinghappens, or you become radically
aware, like I think of when myfather had a stroke, when I was
maybe I don't know 12 or 13,somewhere around there.
I never realized how ableist ofa world we lived in until I had

(01:26):
a father who could not walk aswell as he used to.
Right now, I'm realizing wow,there's not places that are
handicap accessible.
Or I'm realizing the differentbarriers that exist amongst
parking and all sorts of things.
I think the same often existsfor patriarchy, where, for many
men, we do not notice thissystem of oppression that exists

(01:48):
because we don't have to.
It benefits us.
We've always had the right tovote, we've always had
opportunities, we've always beenpaid at higher salaries and
other sorts of privileges thatmy mind is blanking on, mind is
blanking on, and then somethinghappens where we become aware.

(02:09):
For me, I became aware, shoot,when did I become aware?
Honestly, I think it wascollege, and I was really
involved in this space incollege called the Pan-African
Student Union, and there werejust tons of unapologetic Black
women who were not afraid tocheck men but who also just
weren't afraid to openly talkabout patriarchy and misogynoir
and how that shows up in theirlife, and I think that was a

(02:31):
moment for me where I was like,wait a minute, maybe I've been
taught to think about somethings wrong.
So, jason, for you I'm curious.
First introduce yourself.
What do you do, favorite thingto eat for breakfast and what
was your fish out of watermoment?

Speaker 3 (02:48):
Sure, well, thanks for having me.
My name is Jason LaRock.
I am a all boys educator.
I teach, coach, administer andlead at an all boys school up in
Massachusetts and I've been inthe all boys education space for
close to 20 years.
Um, and I am a PhD, aresearcher.

(03:11):
Um and um spend a lot of timethinking about masculinity and
gender equity.
Um, what I think my favoritebreakfast food is anything with
hot sauce.
I think my favorite breakfastfood is anything with hot sauce,
so typically eggs, burritos,kind of anything with hot sauce.
Any hot sauce will work.
Um, but yeah, I had a.

(03:33):
I had a really great breakfastburrito this morning which I'm
still thinking about.
Um, yeah, I think my fish outof water.
I have two that come to mind.
One is more real life and oneis more academic.
I think the real life one wasabout two St Patrick's Days ago.
I had taken my young childrenout for dinner and we were

(03:56):
walking along a downtown streeton St Patrick's Day around 5 pm
and it was bright out andgetting out of the car, taking
my kids to the restaurant andall of a sudden, about three or
four drunk women coming out of abar, an Irish pub across the
street, started catcalling me infront of my children and kind

(04:18):
of offering some sexualizedcommentary, and in my 45 years
of living that was the firsttime that that had ever happened
to me.
Um, and I was like superself-conscious.
I felt a little unsafe, um, Ihad to explain to my kids what
was happening.
They were quite confused and ittook 45 years for me to

(04:40):
experience something like that.
And that was just a reminder tome of, like, what women
experience frequently, you know,and how when they're out
socially and it's very difficultto be alone, you know, there's
a lot of sexist comments andbehaviors that happen, that they
encounter quite frequently.
So that was a kind of a reallife moment.

(05:02):
And then I think for me, anacademic moment was part of my
doctoral work.
I had to write a qualifyingpaper called sociocultural
perspective and I had to pick anaspect of my identity and
reflect on it in like a 40 pagepaper.
It was really hard for me tothink about what aspect of my

(05:27):
identity I really wanted to diveinto.
Um, because a lot of myidentities are are typically
thought of as, like theprivileged identities, um.
So I was like, well, what am Igoing to write about Um and then
I, I, I, I really drilled downon masculinity and when I
started to do that, it justopened up a whole world of
reflection to me that allowed methe opportunity to really dive

(05:48):
into some of the forces that hadshaped my life for 40 years and
I never even really dedicatedthe time or the energy to think
about it.
So that was quite a powerfulthing thing and and I I went
into my doctoral programthinking I was going to spend
that journey thinking about moreteaching and learning, specific

(06:09):
um research and, and when Istarted this socio-cultural
perspective paper, it was sopowerful that I really decided
that I wanted to focus more onthe identity aspect of education
and and decided to write mydissertation more on the
experience of masculinity of allboys administrators that are
men, and that became kind of thedriving question that I've been

(06:34):
pursuing for the last five, sixyears, or going back to that
experience where you werecatcalled on that St Patrick's
Day.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
I'm curious did you initially make the connections
right away between, like, whatyou're experiencing and this is
something that women experienceall the time?

Speaker 3 (07:00):
Or yeah, like what was kind of that process, like
the first, the first thing wasjust trying to explain it to my
kids and like to get them intothe restaurant, because it was
quite distracting, the kids werereally confused and that the
kids were taken care of.
I think when it really hit mewas the next day, when I was
like, wow, that was Because thennot only did I have to worry

(07:31):
about getting into therestaurant, but then I'm like
are they lingering, are theysticking around?
Am I going to encounter them onthe way out?
Are they going to follow me,follow me?
Um, so it was.
It's not too often that a 6'3white male is vulnerable and
physically intimidated like that, and it was clearly a moment of

(07:54):
like psychological distress andand just that that feeling
isn't something that I have toworry about very often.
Um, so that was just that wassomething that was pretty
revelatory for me and reallyconnected the dots, like the
next day.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, yeah, no, thank you for sharing.
I also kind of had a similarexperience before and felt very
similar things, where you stopand you think of the discomfort
that, in my case, that I feltfor that moment, and then I
think, wow, no-transcript,really think twice about it.

(08:58):
It's a thing and, yeah, justknowing that anywhere you go,
there's kind of this risk thatyou have of either being
harassed by someone or someonesaying something, doing
something that makes youuncomfortable.
I think one of the thingsthat's super intriguing for me
is you are in the schools andthere's so many conversations

(09:19):
right now happening around boysin schools.
I think about the Netflix seriesAdolescence and, as a person
who is, you know, kind ofremoved from K through 12
settings, I think about how,when I was working with college
students, one of the things Isaw is students were coming in a

(09:39):
lot more aware of social issuesthan I was when I first got to
college, like a lot of thethings that I had learned for
the first time and things likegender or race being socially
constructed.
These students were coming inknowing these things.
But then I think about this newculture that's emerging.
That's a bit foreign for me,like the incel the red pill

(10:01):
masculinity.
Still, to this day, I'm notgonna lie, I'm still confused a
little bit about what it is.
How do you kind of see thesedynamics play out?
What are some of the beliefsthat boys within your school
have about masculinity thatyou've observed?

Speaker 3 (10:18):
Well, I have the benefit of working in a
faith-based school, so it's aCatholic institution which I
think, at least from a valuesperspective, and you know you
look at some of the values ofthe Gospels and some of the you
know the central tenets ofChristianity.
I think that supports the workthat we do with boys in terms of

(10:40):
character building and, youknow, developing a sense of
morality and ethics.
And when you have a requirementof religious studies and
theology for their time there,you're basically normalizing
reflection and prayer andspirituality.

(11:00):
And I also have the benefit ofworking at a really inclusive
Catholic school, so that youknow we're aware that there are
people from different faithtraditions and different kind of
readiness for spirituality.
So we meet people where they'reat in their journey and for our
students, it's really justgetting them to think beyond
themselves and whatever thatmeans for them, I think is kind

(11:23):
of where we try to go andwhatever that means for them, I
think is kind of where we try togo.
But servant leadership issomething that we're always
thinking about is, you know,using your gifts and strengths
for others, and I think thatwhen you look at a lot of the
manosphere messaging, it'sreally about this culture of
like, success and individuation.
Success and individuationthere's not a lot of.

(11:48):
There's not a lot of talk aboutcommunity or affinity or
dependence and intimacy andconnection.
It's really all about likeseparating yourself from the
crowd through strength anddomination and power, and I
think that the gift of mycommunity is that those are all
things that we kind of we workagainst and we talk about how

(12:09):
interconnected we all are, andI'm a part of where boys are
talking about grief and loss andbeing confused and needing help
, and I think that's one of thegifts of an all boys education

(12:38):
and there are some things thatyou have to look out for in an
all boys setting.
There are some things that youhave to look out for in an
all-boys setting.
Obviously, sometimes it can getpretty competitive and there
could be some alpha malepersonalities that come out.
But I think if you are aware ofsome of the drawbacks and if
you can be intentional about howyou handle those moments and

(12:59):
you can be thoughtful about allthe other webs of supports and
messaging that you're sending toboys, then I think it all evens
out and I think that thebenefits clearly outweigh some
of the potential drawbacks.
Um, and I'm?
I'm a middle school person.
I kind of uh, that's that's mysweet spot right now and I work

(13:21):
with high school students too,but the middle school, for me,
is really formative, and they'rethey're constantly surveilling
their social scenes and they'relooking for what's the narrative
that makes sense to me and, andbased on my emerging sense of
self, which narratives makesense to me and which ones don't
.
And I might need help.

(13:42):
I might need help discerningthat.
Um, and I think that's reallywhat mentors and educators and
and men of influence can do forthese young, young men is really
just help them differentiatebetween the narratives that are
offered and, instead of judgingthem, it's sitting with them and
just processing, processingtogether, because no boy I know

(14:04):
wants to be lectured to.
Yeah, you know, I mean the.
The best phrase I ever read wasthat boys need us to be
co-conspirators.
Yes, so you know they.
They have all this, thispent-up, uh kind of uh drive to
to deal with fairness and equity, and they're looking.

(14:29):
They're looking to see who hasinfluence and they're like
putting their ranking things andthey're putting things in order
.
And if we're, if we'relecturing them or we're
correcting them or telling themall the ways they're wrong.
That's not going to work.
They need people to beco-conspirators with them, like
tell me your story and likelet's, let's do this together.
Um, and I think that's reallywhere educators and mentors can

(14:51):
do the best work is to journeywith boys and listen to them and
be present to them, but not tryto judge them or fix them.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Hmm, you know it's.
It's so interesting because ifyou were to tell me that I had
to go to an all-boys school, Iwould probably cry in misery.
That was probably my biggestfear growing up.
I did not thrive in anyall-boys settings, never did
sports or anything like that.
So it's interesting to hear youdescribe this environment where

(15:19):
I'm like, wow, this sounds likea space I would love to be in
and it kind of conflicts withanything that I would imagine an
all-boys space would be like.
One of the things that kind ofsparked my curiosity is I
remember when I was an undergradI initially was going to school
to be a teacher up until Ithink, like student teaching is
when I quit.

(15:40):
Like right before I was goingto student teach, I dropped my
licensure program and it waslargely because I took a youth
studies class and I realizedthat I cared a lot more about
youth development than I didabout pedagogy.
Process of learning, all theyou know, teaching to a

(16:00):
curriculum, like those thingsdidn't excite me as much as the
youth development conversationdid, and that was never a part
of my program.
There was nothing about howyoung people develop, there was
nothing about adolescence, and Iguess I'm curious.
I think that teaching is ateaching and working in schools
are a way to do youthdevelopment work.

(16:22):
But how have you seen peoplebalance this idea of helping
young people become who theyalready are versus trying to
mold them into mini versions,usually of ourselves or kind of
what we think they should be?

Speaker 3 (16:41):
Well, I think there's a couple of things there.
One is, you know, know, youstarted off by talking a little
bit about that.
What I've been describing ismaybe a little bit different
than the vision of all boyseducation that you have been
thinking of.
And then the second part ofyour question was more about,
like, you know, how do we, howdo we create spaces where boys
can authentically becomethemselves?

(17:03):
And I think that, um, I comeback to the, the culture of the
institution, and you know,culture either permits
authenticity or diminishesauthenticity, and I think that
where I work in this community,I'm a part of as a really strong
culture, um, that is reallybased around formation and

(17:28):
accompanying and journeyingpeople, versus trying to get to
a destination where we all haveto, you know, look the same at
the end.
And I think that, you know, Itaught a class on relational
dynamics in the theologydepartment, um, this past year,

(17:48):
and one of the one of the thingswe used was um a Jesuit named
James Martin Um.
He has a book where he talksabout the true self and the?
Um the false self, and I thinkreally, with boys and men,
that's that's the constantbattle is like what, what does
society want from me versus whatdo I want for myself.

(18:13):
Yeah.
And I think that you know,depending on the culture of the
school, public schools isprobably less space and time for
figuring out that tensionbecause of the mandated
curriculum and the benchmarkassessments that need to be done
.
And you know, obviouslycharacter development cannot be

(18:34):
done through a kind of aspiritual lens in a public
setting.
But I think that in a faithbased school, in private schools
, there's less mandatedcurriculum and there tends to be
less standardized testing and alittle more academic freedom.
And I think, especially at aCatholic school like ours,
really that formation is just asimportant as the academic

(18:56):
formation.
So we have a lot of freedom andwe're encouraged to really help
our boys, courage to really toreally help our boys.
We, we talk about our boys beingcalled to be authentic and, and
you know, figuring out who theyare called to be, and then us
really supporting that journeythrough our co-curricular
program, our academic program,essentially creating all these

(19:19):
experiences where they learnmore about themselves and and
then, through that process ofself-discovery, they then learn
what they can contribute to theworld and I think really, at the
end of the day, that's whatspirituality is.
It's like learning more aboutyourself so you can be good for
others.
And I think, what boy?
We talk about the purposevacuum with boys right now, but

(19:42):
like what boy doesn't want to begood at something?
and then and then, and then bein a position to help others
with that, like I think.
I think boys want they'rethey're kind of coded to to use
their strengths not one strength, not the typical strength we
think of but use their gift, usetheir gifts for others.
I think there's a deep codedkind of um, you know, uh, all of

(20:13):
humanity's history I thinkthere's a coded kind of yearning
to use your talents for others,and I think really, at the end
of the day, that's what I thinkeducation is, and what a
blessing to do it in a settingfor all boys, and what a
blessing to do it in a placewhere they, we, can explore that
spiritual element as well well,there's two kind of follow-ups
that come to my mind.

Speaker 2 (20:31):
One I'm curious about you know, when you had that
experience a few years ago, plusafter, uh, finishing your phd
program, which is kind of likeopening your eyes to a lot of
things around masculinity,patriarchy how did that shift
your approach to work?
And then, another thing I'mcurious about is this community

(20:51):
that you've that you formedwithin the school.
What does it kind of look likewhen boys step outside of this
community?
Do you ever hear them realize,in other spaces where they may
interact with other boys, likewow, it's a little different.
Or like they are, you know,where it's not as easy to be
vulnerable?
What's kind of that been like?

Speaker 3 (21:13):
I think that you know we're only with our students
eight hours out of a 24 hour dayand we're only with them nine
months out of 12.
And we're facing a lot ofcountercultural messages that
you know.
I think we used to be operatingfrom a position of strength
before the, you know, thedigital social media age and

(21:35):
maybe some of the decline ofsome of the more civic and
neighborhood based kind ofgroups and associations.
I think you know, I think COVIDdid a lot of damage to a lot of
the kind of the neighborhoodand some of the communities that
people typically were a part of.
And I think, with the rise ofsocial media and you know people

(21:59):
working more and you know thepeople are working more to pay
their bills and therefore haveless time for kind of
neighborhood and civicengagement, community engagement
, I think, with all of thesedifferent dynamics, I think boys
are coming in with a lot lessexperience being a part of a

(22:19):
community and being a part ofbeing a part of like a common
purpose, being a part of being apart of like a common purpose,
yeah, so so I think a lot ofwhat we have to do in school is
that we can't assume and I thinkthis is true for a lot of
schools and educationalinstitutions, not just ours is
we can't assume that boys knowwhat it means to be a part of a
community.
We can't assume that boys knowthe behaviors that are

(22:42):
pro-social.
We can't assume that boys knowwhat it means to be a part of an
academic community.
So we're finding that we haveto do a lot more foundational
skill and value building andthat we have to oftentimes do a
lot of corrective behavior,where they're coming in with

(23:04):
certain ideas about what itmeans to be a boy or what it
means to be successful, or youknow what are the kinds of
things that I used to do, um, interms of my relationships that
maybe in a place like ours itjust doesn't fly, um.
So I think I think we're doinga lot more work for the same
result because of what'shappening outside of our campus

(23:27):
and what the boys areexperiencing.
But that's on all of us right.
It's not just on us as a school, it's on the families that are
coming to our school.
They have to do some of thiswork.
We have to partner with them.
I think it's a lot of thechurches, it's a lot of the
teams that the boys are playingon.
Like we all have to, we allhave to come together and serve

(23:49):
these boys.
It can't just be the schools,it can't just be the parents, um
, you know, we all have to kindof meet the needs of these boys
because, you know, based on allthe public health data and all
the things, like this is themoment, know, this is the moment
, and, and it's either going toget better or it's going to get
worse, but it's going to takeall of us, um, so that's how I

(24:09):
would answer that.
And then, in terms of you know,my own experiences with my
doctoral work, I think beingbecoming a parent, I think could
really help me with some ofthis is that, in order for me to
help boys the best I can, Ihave to make sure that I've done
my own work away from work, andthat that involves healing,

(24:32):
that involves transformation.
It involves, like you know, alot, of, a lot of processing of
like previous suffering that Ihave to like figure out, so that
when I show up to my community,when I show of like previous
suffering that I have to likefigure out, so that when I show
up to my community, when I showup to the boys that I'm leading.
I've done all the things formyself so that when I'm, when

(24:52):
I'm present for them, I canlisten to them.
I'm not projecting any bias onthem, I'm not.
I'm not judging them.
I'm not demanding things fromthem that they can't give me.
So I have found that.
You know that's part of mydoctoral work is that I found
that the men, who are the bestleaders of boys, they're in a

(25:13):
constant process of reflectionand healing so that they're able
to show up for their boys andlike, really help them transform
and grow.
But we can't, as men, we can'tjust show up, however we have
been raised and just expect towork miracles.
It just doesn't happen.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Oh, yeah, yeah Well, and I meet a lot of men just in
my personal life who have anawareness that they know that
there's some work or somehealing that they need to do,
but I often think that there'snot a lot of direct guidance of
what that looks like, knowingthat it, of course, can look
different for everyone, based onour experiences and what we

(25:52):
have access to, but for you,with as much or as little as
you're comfortable sharing, youknow what does healing, what
does that constant journey ofhealing look like for you?

Speaker 3 (26:05):
I think it is having people around who can call you
out, based out of love and justyou know, name behaviors or
challenge things that they'reseeing, that I'm doing in a
loving way and saying likethat's not who you are or why
are you doing that?
Or you know me even tellingthese people that are in my

(26:25):
circle these are the things thatwhen I'm not going well, or the
things that I'm working on,these are what that looks like.
So if you see me going downthis road, please call me in and
let's talk about it.
So for me, healing is reallyjust creating spaces of honesty
and vulnerability and asking forhelp and cultivating a network

(26:50):
of people friends, family,co-workers that I kind of give
them the keys to.
You know my heart and my mindand say like I can't do this
alone and I need your help.
I think it's.
You know.
The therapy commitment thatI've had for 20 years is trying
to like create spaces for myselfto work out stuff that I'm

(27:12):
thinking about and trying toheal from.

Speaker 2 (27:15):
Wait, you've been in therapy for 20 years.
Oh wow, that is like incredible.
Keep going.
I have a follow up on that, butkeep going.

Speaker 3 (27:23):
And I think it's like to be honest with you.
I think it's the realizationthat the myth of independence
and strength it's like you haveto actually name it and then you
have to take care to not godown that road.
I mean, there's been moments inmy life where I either ignored

(27:48):
or diminished or escapedindependence, the issues I was
having.
And I think now, when you know,through through wisdom and
growth and suffering, I thinkI'm now at a point where I can
be like, oh no, here it comes.
These are the six or seventhings that I'm going to put in
place by the end of the weekend,so that I'm good, you know.
And and I think it's knowingwhat the issues are, knowing

(28:09):
what your resources are and thenputting them in action.
I mean, that's really whathealing is for me.
It's like identify thechallenges, know when they're
happening and then put resourcesinto place proactively so that
you can either control, movepast or work alongside these

(28:31):
issues.
But yeah, ignoring it's notgoing to help.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Oh yeah, I teach a class at the U of M called
Leadership, you and yourCommunities, which is all kind
of about community leadership.
So we talk a lot aboutinterdependence.
We talk about all flourishingbeing mutual and it always
brings me back to I was workingin a program for Black men on a
college campus and it wouldalways get on my nerves when we

(28:58):
would have these group check-insand everyone's like oh, things
are fine, like grades arelooking good.
I have my one-on-ones with themand I'm doing grade checks and
I'm hearing an opposite story.
But it would always beinteresting where there would be
one student they could beroommates taking the same course
, one student failing, anotherstudent doing well, and I would

(29:20):
always sit there and think aboutinterdependence.
All flourishing is mutual, likewhen you are really rooted and
grounded in community, likethere is support, there is no
need to struggle or suffer insilence.
The students that I teach I'malways like I would kind of be
mad if y'all all come to classevery week and like two people
are failing and y'all don't know, or if two people don't come to

(29:42):
class and you all don't sayanything, like that would.
That's a little wild in termsof how was that living in
community Um, when you weretalking about therapy for 20
years I was it made me thinkabout my own therapy journey,
which is significantly shorterthan yours, and I think about
all the different times where Iwas like, where I feel like I've
had these many graduations fromtherapy and I'll take a pause

(30:04):
or I'll stop and then maybe I'llstart back.
What has made you like persistfor 20 years?

Speaker 3 (30:11):
I think it's been good people, good therapists,
yeah, and I think it's a senseof progress.
I think when, from what I'veheard, people that in my life
that have either tried it andkind of stopped or, you know,
dabbled and then left, it islike they just didn't see
progress or value.
And I think for me, I'veconstantly felt like I was

(30:36):
making improvements.
And how I know is that, youknow, now, when I am on the you
know call with my therapist or Isee the therapist in person is
like I basically run the meeting, yeah, you know, I'm like, I'm
like oh, so these are the things, this is what I'm doing, this
is what I'm thinking about, andmy therapist is like oh, is like
oh, that's that's great, youhave, you know, some great
strategies and you know.

(30:56):
And then, and then I don't knowthat there's there's a shift in
the conversation, at least withtherapists I've had, where you
know, you kind of co-constructthe, the call, yes, yes, versus
like you know, versus like thetherapist, like being the expert
and telling you and likewalking you through and taking
up space.
I think really what happensover time is like the two of you

(31:19):
co-construct the, the meaning,and and the, the follow-up and
like the, the phone call or thezoom call, and like, to me,
that's when you really made itis like you're.
You're not an equal becauseobviously you don't have the
training, but yeah, you'reembodying the, the mindset and
the, the process of you know,reforming your behavior, I guess

(31:42):
, um, and being, being.
What is it like?
Having a rich vocabulary aboutemotion?
Yeah, I think I think is reallyimportant, like when you can
name it, describe it it, talkabout it, articulate it, um, I
think, I think you, that's whenyou've kind of graduated.
So, even though I probably havegraduated, I still like the

(32:04):
fact that, like, I have that inmy world and you know, sometimes
I'll reduce the frequency, um,but I, I like having it as a
part of my, my network ofsupports, which to me, is part
of that healing.
You know why abandon somethingthat is serving you?

Speaker 2 (32:19):
Oh, absolutely, at one point I saw it as like a
weekly investment in myself,almost similar to like getting a
haircut or just kind of like aweekly thing that I'm doing to
care for myself and knowing thatthere is someone who I can like
labor with certain things andI'm not all constantly relying
on friends or a partner toprocess or navigate certain

(32:41):
things that might be heavy.
So I love that.
Earlier you've mentionedfatherhood and surprisingly well
, maybe not surprisingly a largeamount of people who listen to
this podcast are women, a goodamount of them being mothers,
just from people who reach outand they often talk about the
difficulty of, or not thedifficulty, but trying to

(33:02):
navigate.
How do you raise boys to resistthe manosphere and kind of some
of this harmful rhetoric thatthey see on social media and
that's affirmed in subtle waysthrough friends groups, sports
teams?
Um, and for you as a parent,like what does it look like
raising children to sort ofresist some of the harmful

(33:23):
rhetoric?

Speaker 3 (33:26):
it's interesting.
I I've worked with a few parentgroups for elementary schools
about, you know, raising boysand it's the crowd is mostly
women, yeah, and the fathersthat come you could tell the
ones that weren't actually myfriends through the communities
that I'm in.
You could tell that the menwere kind of dragged by their

(33:50):
wives, Yep.
But I think that halfwaythrough my presentation I think
the men.
But but I think that you know,halfway through my, my
presentation, I think the menare bought in because I think
they, it resonates with them.
It's just, it's just likegetting there, Right, it's like
once you have the men there andyou give them the message,
you're like, oh yeah, that'sright or that's powerful, but
it's getting them to invest, toshow up, Yep.

(34:13):
But I think one of the thingsthat my my, one of my main
messages, is that we don't wantto neglect the emotional lives
of boys.
And I think one of the thingsthat you know, Ruth Whitman, who
wrote boy mom, which is anamazing book I would recommend
it to anybody who cares aboutboys she talks about this really

(34:38):
deep tension of privilege andneglect so boys are often
privileged.
You know early on they're.
They're kind of given all thesemessages that they, you know
they're they're going to besuccessful, that they, you know
they're going to be um, yougiven the keys to the kingdom
early on.
But then through that processof privilege, they often miss

(34:59):
out on a lot of the emotionalneeds they have and those
emotional needs go unmet andneglected.
And I think one of the things Ireally tried to do with my own
son is I tried to not diminishhis emotions.
I try to celebrate them,acknowledge them, you them, give
him some vocabulary to namethem, tell him I'm proud when

(35:22):
he's feeling their emotions,celebrate them, feel them
without shame, without guilt,without any trivializing of them
.
A lot of times when boys areemotional, we try to tell them
to pick up the pieces and moveon quickly.

(35:43):
Yep, um, and I just don't thinkthat's life, I don't think that
serves anybody.
And I also try to.
I try to show and modelvulnerability as well.
I cry in front of my children,I talk about I cry in front of
my children, I talk about mystruggles in front of my
children and I just think allthat stuff's really important.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
You know it's interesting.
When you were talking aboutkind of neglecting boys, it made
me think about how often Ithink one of the impacts of
patriarchy is the one.
Often I think one of theimpacts of patriarchy is the one

(36:25):
this belief that men should beproviders and sort of
self-sufficient and independent,constantly trying to get to
manhood, without even reallyknowing what I meant by manhood,
but kind of this constanttrying to prove that I have it
on my own and I think that I wasraised to go in that way.
So I think about, like you know, starting working early.

(36:48):
I was always trying to makemoney, whether it was cutting
grass or doing X, y, z, whateverit is, because to be a man is
about financial stability, beingable to provide for self.
And then I think about as Igrew older, became a teenager,
realizing my parents asked lessquestions.
You know they kind of, if Isaid I was going somewhere, ok,

(37:10):
when you get back they don't asktoo much about it.
You say when?
Good, they don't you know.
And then kind of the older Iget, the more there is that
neglect to kind of I don't know,just check in or know how
things are going, because that'sessentially what I was taught
men do, where it's to beindependent, to not have someone

(37:31):
worried or concerned about you.
It's to be independent, to nothave someone worried or
concerned about you.
I ask that because anotherquestion that I've been thinking
about a lot is how.
What are boys' ideas on whatbecoming a man means and how?
That can often be so tied to atraumatic event or experience

(37:53):
where, when I was growing up, alot of boys felt like they
became men either after they hadsex for the first time or if a
friend died or if a parent is nolonger in the picture, like
they'll talk about.
That's when I became a man.
For you, I'm curious one.
Did you have any ideas around?
This is where I became a man.

(38:14):
What was that?
And then do you kind of see,how do you see young people
thinking about what becoming aman looks like?

Speaker 3 (38:24):
I think my own story really is like manhood was
represented through sports and Ididn't have a language for it.
There wasn't a lot of talkabout no-transcript in my school

(39:08):
setting.
Is that boys want to talk aboutthis stuff?
They really do, but they wantto do it in a space that's safe,
yeah, and I think I think theywant to do it in a space that is
more listening than it istelling.
Um and I, you know, I I go backto this class that I taught this

(39:29):
past year called relationaldynamics, and like we just
talked a lot about theirexperiences and we talked a lot
about, you know, some of thechallenges of trying to be
strong and successful and youknow they really enjoyed it and
I think, like I think they, Ithink they enjoyed the, the

(39:49):
partnership with me, but like wewere doing it together and I
actually used a lot of thematerial from your book in the
in the class, to be honest withyou, and one of the things that
we tried, one of the things wedid, was we, your, your chapter
on softness, we we talked a lotabout like what, what does
softness look like to you?

(40:10):
Because I wanted to kind, Iwanted to have them think about
some areas of human, humanexperience that they don't
normally think about.
Like boys don't think aboutsoftness ever, yeah, um, so I
had them like reflect on thatand they had to, you know, do an
assignment for me where, like,they had to either create a
video or they had to, like youknow, create a piece of art, or

(40:31):
they had to share, share animage or a memory that captured
softness for them and they lovedit.
They loved it, like one boyshared that he played, plays the
guitar, and like that's wherehe feels soft, is like
expressing himself through music.
Um, one boy talked about, likemoments on the beach with his

(40:51):
family, um, but like they don'tdo that, you know, and I think,
like creating spaces for boys toreflect and talk about their
issues and validate them anddon't, you know, don't impose
beliefs on them about theirexperiences, I think is really
rewarding and valuable for them,and I could just see them

(41:14):
craving that, you know, andthese were juniors, 17, 17 years
old, you know, ready to start,you know, almost in college, and
like, clearly wantingindependence, clearly wanting to
separate from, like their, youknow, their childhood selves,
but like they just still wantedto talk about their identity,
their lives, their experiences,meaning, so that was really

(41:39):
powerful to do that with them.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Oh my gosh, it just made me think about how such of
a disservice it is to abandonthat softness and that
gentleness, that gentleness.
And I think about how boysdon't get to be soft and gentle
for too long before they're kindof socialized into aggression
or interdependence orindependence and so on.
And yeah, I'm just sitting herethinking about how much you

(42:04):
miss when you don't get toembodying that.

Speaker 3 (42:07):
I'll tell you, one of the one of the most powerful
moments I've ever had in myeducational career, going on 20
years now, is, uh, I wasteaching this class and my wife
and I had a a long fertilityjourney, um, and we had both of
our children through IVF.

(42:28):
And I was doing this assignmentin my class, where it's an
interview project.
It's a Naomi Way, the professorat NYU who you might know had
this thing called the listeningproject and the whole idea is to
get boys to listen and hearstories of other people so you

(42:49):
can develop some empathy.
So I tied this in with a uniton active listening, so I had
the boys interview three adultsin the community and learn more
about them and through thatexperience, what did they learn
about themselves?
So I modeled this by having theboys interview me and the

(43:11):
interview starts, and I did thisin front of the class and the
interview starts.
And I did this in front of theclass and the interview starts
with like a like a profoundquestion to like spark dialogue.
And one of the questions waslike what's the?
The starting question for myinterview from the class was
what's one thing that wasdifficult, that you experienced,
that you would not change.
So.

(43:33):
So I talked about my fertilityjourney and one of the boys in
the class and this was probablylike two months into the class
we hadn't a lot of you know, wehadn't a lot of time together
and we weren't quite fullytrusting yet but one of the boys
asked me in front of the wholeclass do you think you'll tell
your kids someday?

(43:54):
And that was the first timeanyone had ever asked me that.
Yeah, and I just, I juststarted crying uncontrollably
because it was like this reallypowerful question.
And the boy you know, one ofthe things that naobi way talks
about is when these boys ask youthese questions, you realize

(44:15):
how deep they can be.
Yes, so, like my whole adultlife, no one had even taken the
time.
No adult, nobody in my ownfamily had ever asked me that
question.
And I'm looking at this 16, 17year old boy who's innocent and
is just genuinely curious.
Like you know, dr Laocque, areyou going to tell your kids

(44:35):
someday?
And I just started crying andthen he started crying and I'm
looking around and the wholeclass was crying and it was like
this, this moment for me, whereI'm like I deeply believe in
boys like we, we can do this,like we can create spaces and
and ways for boys to beauthentic, courageous,

(44:56):
vulnerable, curious about peopleyou know, empathetic, listening
to stories, and it was justlike this.
This moment I'll never forgetwhere, just like this innocent
question, that was just supersuper curious, super like super
human, um, and it just hit anerve with me that I wasn't
anticipating.

Speaker 2 (45:17):
Hmm, oh, that would have tore me up.
If I was there, I would havebeen on the floor.

Speaker 3 (45:21):
It was, it was it was unbelievable.
It was like it was like 18 menprying in a room.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Yeah, you know, when you, as you were talking about
just asking questions, one ofthe things that I have noticed
in my own life something thatI'm trying to practice more
because I based on when I wasborn, I'm kind of bad at it is I
was talking with some of myfriends and we were talking
about how we didn't really haveto ask our parents for much

(45:50):
because we I was born in 97.
So I grew up right around thetime where technology was
kicking off kicking off, butbefore my parents, who were born
in the 50s, knew how to controlit, monitor it, I taught them
everything that they knew.
But because of that, everyquestion that I've had about

(46:13):
life, I've always had Google orsome sort of source to ask.
And then I even think about,like, the role of ChatGPT and
the questions that I can askyeah, a computer, and how that
has been missed, I think,moments to connect with just not

(46:35):
only my own father, but justelders in my community.
And I'm curious, do you eversee like that dynamic show up
where, because we have a lot ofresources, we have Reddit pages,
we have social media, we haveGoogle we don't have to ask
people face to face a lot ofquestions.

(46:55):
Yeah, do you ever?
Have you ever noticed that,either with yourself, with with
young people that you work with?

Speaker 3 (47:07):
I think one of the more more impactful books that
I've read recently was DavidBrooks, how to know, how to know
a person, and I think whatyou're getting at is really just
, you know how many people canwe honestly say that we know?
You know like no, knowingsomeone because they're nearby

(47:30):
or they're they're, they're kindof, uh, formally related to you
right through blood or throughrole, does not mean that you
know them.
And I guess, I don't know,maybe as a society we've lost

(47:51):
the benchmark for knowing aperson you know, like, do you
know someone if you follow them?
Um?
Do you know someone if you workfor them?
Do you know someone if you livewith them?
Um, so I I guess that's a kindof more an existential question
is like what qualifies knowing aperson?

(48:11):
And and to me it's like I guessknowing a person is like
knowing their heart- yeah.
Um sitting with them.
When, when stuff hits the fanand like suffering with people,
I think is really when you getto know them.
Um so, to answer your question,I, I, I think we can do a better

(48:36):
job of talking to young peopleabout what it means to to
journey with people and to knowthem.
Um, and I'm sure there's amillion ways to do that, but I
think sparking conversation,cultivating conversation,
putting away devices, puttingboundaries around devices, like,

(48:58):
I think that's all important.
Um, finding ways to be out innature, finding ways to, like go
to cultural events,experiencing life, not just
consuming it, I think is reallyimportant.
Um, so I don't have an answerother than I'm curious, but I

(49:20):
wonder if, like, we, we've kindof lost the you know, what does
it mean to know a person?
I mean, I, you know, I hear allthese these nostalgic stories
about, like Sunday dinners andlike family traditions where
people went for walks and, youknow, I just don't know if that
kind of stuff happens anymore.
Um, so how do we get to knowpeople?

(49:41):
I guess is really, um, what I'mcurious about, and I think part
of that is like, maybe that'swhat my work is with men and
boys.
It's like it's just how can Iget to know you better than,
rather than like, need you forsomething?
Like I want to, I want to knowmore about.
I want to know more about you.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Oh my gosh, yes, it's um's.
When I first wrote my book andI was terribly nervous to give
it to my parents because I knewthat they didn't know me and I
knew that most probably 80percent of the things they were
going to read were things thatthey did not know- Isn't that

(50:22):
crazy that our parents don'teven know us?
isn't that crazy that ourparents don't even know us.
Yeah, well, in my dad, I think,and maybe even to this day, I
think he really struggles withthe book, like he really
struggles with.
He did not know these thingsand I think it it has been
interesting watching himnavigate how he's struggling
with it and part of it, um, Ithink his struggle is my dad has

(50:46):
always been a if you needanything, like I'm there, type
of dad and he has always likefilled all of like my physical
needs or like it to this day.
If something's wrong with mycar, my dad is going to handle
that for me.
Like I'm getting my cardetailed, my dad's going to like

(51:06):
organize that for me.
Like he shows up in a veryparticular way.
But I think what he hasn'tlearned is how do you show up in
a way that is getting to know aperson, versus my relationship
with my mom.
With my mom, I probably talk tomy mom daily and we just kind
of talk about the everyday.

(51:27):
Like if somebody made me mad atwork, I might tell my mom.
I think she knows me in adifferent way, largely because
of, I think, the way that womentend to build relationships.
I think they just kind of havemore healthy norms than men do.
And then I think back to thismoment at a church do.

(51:49):
And then I think back to thismoment at a church.
My church has a men's group andI don't usually go.
And I don't go because the lasttime I went I remember they
were so frustrated with eachother because they were trying
to figure out what should theydo with this space that they
have.
What should they do on thisMonday night for one hour?
And a lot of them wereexpressing variations of I want

(52:10):
this to be a space of connectionand not knowing how to do that.
Like I remember walking in thechurch and we're not even
sitting in a circle, like we'rekind of sitting in the pew, so
there's like you can't even seeeveryone.
And then you think about youknow same church.
I've been to all of my life,most of these men have been
there even longer than I haveand how they have been in a

(52:33):
faith community for decades andstill do not know each other.
And I'm always thinking likehow does that happen and how do
you cultivate that?
Or you know what are the waysthat you challenge men to
actually learn how to get toknow each other, when a lot of
the ways that men buildrelationships are through either

(52:57):
sports, politics or, usually,faith communities.
So only reason why I think it'sbeen easier for me is that I am
a man who knows nothing aboutsports.
I become interested in sportswhen Minnesota teams are doing
well, um, and not even like whenwe're doing really well.
Like I'm not at the point whereI'm watching the Timberwolves

(53:19):
games yet, but I know that likeI think we're doing good, so
I'll probably become like adiehard fan, you know, if this
keeps going on.
And because of that, I've neverhad sports as a platform to
build relationships with men, soI've never really been able to
rely on it.
How have you builtrelationships with other men in

(53:40):
your life?

Speaker 3 (53:44):
Not easily.
But one of the things I didabout 10 years ago is I started
doing CrossFit Um, and it's acommunity based um exercise kind
of uh program.
So you take group exerciseclasses for an hour and I think
one of the things that reallyhelped me is that you know, um,

(54:08):
these workouts you get you're,you're kind of forced to sweat
and go through something reallydifficult with men.
So you know you kind of dependon each other, you develop
relationships.
So for me that was kind of thestart of building a network of
and community of men, um.
But I think one of the waysthat I try to do it is through a
shared experience.

(54:29):
So whether it's fatherhood,whether it's a former teammates,
you know we had that sharedexperience of being on a team Um
, I find it's more difficult toestablish relationships with men
without that, without a sharedexperience, cause it almost
feels.
It almost feels like you'rebeing like like dropped into a
phone booth together and likethere's no way out, um.

(54:49):
But I think if there's a sharedexperience, like fatherhood or
like you know, uh, your, yourkids are friends with another
kid, so then you become friendlywith the dad you need almost
like a hook or an entry.
Yeah, um, it could be church,you know stuff like that.
But I think you need thatshared experience at least to
kind of always come back to ifthe conversation's not thriving,

(55:11):
um, and then I think from thereit's just vulnerability.
It's just like opening yourselfup to different things and I've
I've tried to do men's groupsand I've had some success over
the years and I've I've alsoinvited people to men's groups
and I've had some success overthe years and I've I've also
invited people to men's groupsand they just walk away saying
like not for me, because they'rejust not, they're not, they're
not interested in that kind of aspace, um, but yeah, I think

(55:34):
it's like shared experience, um,common purpose, stuff like that
.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
Yeah, yeah, it's.
It's uh interesting.
In my job right now I do likeequity training for a healthcare
system, and one of the thingsthat I think about a lot is how,
because we have been socializedto build relationships out or
based on shared interests,common experiences, affinity in

(56:02):
some sort of way.
I think that also can sometimesmake our relationships um,
what's the word I'm looking for?
It can make it so we are inrelationship with people who are
very similar to us, typicallystate safe, safe relationships.
Safe relationships, yep, and Ialways think about how, or

(56:26):
something I'm always talkingabout is how do we build
relationships off of our justshared humanity?
Um, because in conversationsometimes, when we can get so
focused on looking for thesimilarity, sometimes we're just
not gonna find it.
You know, like I think aboutcertain uh conversations I've
had in work or at trainingswhere I'm like there are some

(56:48):
people where I'm just nevergoing to find something where we
relate to and what does it looklike to be in relationship and
community with them?
So, like, how can differencesalso be like the hook?
You know what I mean, ratherthan just the similarities?
Sure, but I share the sentiment.
It's hard, I think one of thethings that has always been hard

(57:08):
for me in buildingrelationships with other men is
I think it's just hard for me tofeel safe around other men,
like just and generally I Inaturally have always had more
women friends.
I think I've naturally alwaysfelt like it's easier to be my
fullest, authentic self aroundother women.
But I think when I get aroundmen, there's kind of just this

(57:34):
feeling of one how much do Ineed to perform to be a friend
with a man?
Or kind of just this generallike safety.
I don't know, I don't knowwhere it comes from.
Just, yeah, this general likesafety, I don't know, I don't
know where it comes from.
Well, no, I know where it comesfrom, but something I think I
still often have to push myselfharder to to work through.

(57:58):
Absolutely yeah, I'd be curiousto know a little bit more about
we're almost at the hour mark,but I'd want to know a little
bit more about your dissertation.
You talked about it a bit more,but I'd love to just, yeah,
tell me more.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
Sure, so it was a qualitative dissertation.
I selected four men who aremiddle school principals at all
boys' middle schools and peoplebasically in a similar position
as I am, and I interviewed them.
I had them do video journalingso they responded to some

(58:28):
journal questions on a videoprompt, um, and then I also, uh,
chose one of the men to followin his work setting for a couple
of visits, um, and then, as aslike the exemplar, and then,
kind of you know, found myfindings and basically what I

(58:51):
found was that, you know, themen that I selected, the four
men, had gone through this cycleand I used Bruce Filer's book
about transitions and he has aframework of the long goodbye,
the messy middle and the newbeginning, and I basically used
masculinity through this lens,where the men were saying

(59:13):
goodbye to a lot of the thingsthey learned as kids.
They were currently in like themessy middle, where they were
trying on some new approaches tomasculinity, um, some new
things around gender equity, andthen their hope was that they
were, you know, having a newbeginning in terms of their,
their own masculinity and theirleadership, um, and it was just

(59:36):
basically like what I learned isthat, you know, these men are
in a position to help boysbecause they've done their own
work and you know, they've hadthose experiences around
patriarchy and traditionalmasculine ideology.
But it was just really awesometo affirm like the work they
were doing, but also like myjourney was very similar to

(59:56):
theirs.
You know, addition to thescholarship, because there was
not a lot of previouslypublished work around
masculinity in all boys schoolsand especially in terms of the
leaders of those schools, um,and I would say, the only, you
know, the only thing that Ithink was well, there's probably

(01:00:17):
other things, but I think oneof the things that was a
indicator for me is that in inconsidering their own
masculinity, some of the men dida better job of also thinking
about the women in their schools.
So for some of them, you know,gender equity was a, was a
natural byproduct of theirmasculine work, whereas for some

(01:00:39):
of them, that gender equitypiece wasn't as prominent in
their own masculine work.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
Um, so it was like for me, it was like the next
piece, the next iteration oftheir work interesting and
before I let you go, I was doingsome stalking and I found out
that you were like a baseballfanatic, like you have been,
like you are, you were a um gosh.

(01:01:05):
I just saw this, but I don'tknow what it means bullpen
catcher for the red socks yeah,yeah, yeah, I was looking.
I was like I don't know whatthis means, but that sounds
important, uh, and it brought meback to when I was in grad
school.
I did this uh project andresearch on youth organized
sports and specifically, whatare boys learning about

(01:01:27):
masculinity from it, and Ifollowed a basketball team for a
summer and it was one of themost fascinating things I've
witnessed in my life.
Maybe it was fascinating to meas a person who never played a
sport, but I'm curious for you,like because you're a coach
right, you're also a coach.
Um, what do you kind of?
How do you see boys make senseof masculinity through sports

(01:01:50):
programs?

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
good question, I think it.
I think it comes down to theculture that's created and I
think there's some, some coachesthat do a really good job of
this and I think there's somecoaches that don't, and I think,
unfortunately, there's not alot of like strong coaches,
education, so you know, thehigher up you get, you know the
higher up you get, obviously thecoaches are better.

(01:02:15):
But I think you know, at theyouth sports level, um, you know
, it's kind of a mixed bag.
Um, there are someorganizations, like positive
coaching alliance, that thatthat do some education in the
space and really try to makesports more about character
building and emotional tankfilling.

(01:02:36):
I think, for me, as I've gottenolder, I have found sports to be
less integral to um.
For me, as I've, as my idea ofdevelopment has matured, I think
that sports should not be theonly avenue that that young

(01:02:59):
people should experience to helpthem develop.
Let's put it that way I'm moreof an advocate now of balance
and I think that part of my ownchallenge growing up as a man
was that so much of my identitywas rooted in my athletic
identity that when that wastaken away from me, it was very
difficult.
Um, and I think that I'm allfor competitive sports and the

(01:03:22):
experience of sports, because Ihad it myself but I think it
needs to be supplemented withbalance and whether that's
spiritual, you know, um,formation through church
activity.
Whether it's artisticsupplements, like you know doing
things, um, I love it whenathletes are also artists or
athletes are also actors.
I think community service canhelp.

(01:03:43):
I think, you know, scholarathlete model is really
important, so athletes that do agood job in the classroom.
I think, if you can, if you canhave a multi-pronged, diverse
identity, I think it's healthierand I think it helps you so
that if you have adisappointment or a setback in
one aspect of your identity,there's other parts of you that

(01:04:04):
can help you sustain thatchallenge.
Yeah, and I think really that'swhat we should be doing for our
kids is not forcing them intoboxes or, you know, highlighting
one path, one journey only.
I think we should be doingeverything we can to help them
see themselves as multi-talentedand, you know, having multiple

(01:04:29):
interests.
So I think really that's animportant part of development.

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
Yeah, yeah, it's funny because I feel like I like
observed almost the oppositething where and maybe it's the
culture of basketball, but whatI found is that there is so much
emphasis on or in order to makeit to the you know, there's a
lot of talk around like makingit to the pros, which fascinated
me because I was observing,sometimes like fifth and sixth

(01:04:56):
graders, like fourth, fifth andsixth grade, and it would be
fascinating to me.
I mean, of course I know kidsdream big, but like it was more
than a dream, Like this was.
I mean, decisions are beingmade on where to go to school
that will give people the mostopportunities and things like
that.
And yeah, that just reallyfascinated me when I learned

(01:05:16):
that they had national rankingsfor like fifth graders and sixth
graders and in some of theconversations it was interesting

(01:05:40):
to hear and listen to how theserankings impacted a lot of
these boys' sense of self, theirown confidence, the way they
would start to see themselvesbased on where they were ranked.
I can think as well, it justkind of seems like it's way too
early for this and yet, becauseof a lot of other factors, I
think a lot of boys, at least inthe community that I'm
positioned in see this as theirway out, Like they see this as
the most tangible way to endinggenerational poverty and all

(01:06:04):
sorts of other issues that theymay be facing yeah, yeah, I
think it's.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
I think it's helping boys see different models.
So, like travis hunter, thenumber one um or the number two
draft pick in the nfl draft, hada 4.0 at university of colorado
.
So I think it's like elevatingthe athletes.
For boys who are well-roundedand do have these complex

(01:06:30):
identities um, you know talkingabout their stories, putting
those on a pedestal versus someof the other scandals and other
things that are out there, um,cause you can do both.
You know it's not, it's notoutside the realm of possibility
to be a good athlete and a goodstudent, to be a good athlete
and a good artist, to be a goodathlete and, you know,

(01:06:52):
participate in community service.
I think it's achievable.
We just have to elevate theright people.

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
Yeah, yeah, well, and I even it brings me back to in
college settings, at least in D1settings some of my fraternity
brothers were D1 athletes andone of the things that was
interesting for the one whoplays football was it also kind
of felt like coaches did notwant him to be well-rounded in

(01:07:18):
certain ways or like he wasdiscouraged from getting
involved with campusorganizations.
Like even being a part of afraternity was very like taboo
in some ways, but there was kindof like a social isolating.
That even occurred on collegecampuses that were that subtly
communicated.
Stay within this bubble,because in this bubble you are

(01:07:41):
safest and this bubble I canprotect you.
Do not venture outside of thisbubble, right, all right, you
are safest and this bubble I canprotect you.
Do not venture outside of thisbubble, right, all right.
Well, I'm curious for peoplewho want to connect more with
your work and what you do.
What are some of the ways thatpeople can get in touch and get
connected?

Speaker 3 (01:07:56):
sure, sure thanks for asking.
Um.
So I recently launched awebsite, coach larockcom.
I'm sure you'll have maybe theability to link this uh in the
podcast somewhere, um, but it'sbasically a site that, just you
know, talks a little bit aboutmy, my journey, my, my values
and the things I do.

(01:08:16):
Um, you know, I, I, the work Ido, is really more about the
mission than you know the profit.
It's um's um.
I work with teams, I work withschools, I work with um
different organizations aroundhealthy masculinity, team
building, culture, gender equity, and I'd be happy to partner

(01:08:36):
with anybody who's interested inkind of doing some work around
those issues and elevating boysum, elevating women inside the
workplace, um, elevating boys,elevating women inside the
workplace.
So I'm happy to continue theconversation, be a part of any
efforts to move the needle inthose areas, and I really
appreciate the ability to be onthis podcast and kind of share
the message that we talked abouttoday.

Speaker 2 (01:08:57):
No, I appreciate you for sharing your wisdom in the
work that you are doing.
Also, out of curiosity, are youwilling to as people are
thinking about booking do you dovirtual events?
Are you willing to travel orare you kind of just?

Speaker 3 (01:09:10):
focusing on that.
All the above, all the above.
I'm open to anything.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Oh, perfect, that's good to know.
Well, thank you again for yourtime.
I hope you all have enjoyedthis episode and you will be
able to find all of theseresources in the show notes.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
Wanna know just who I am.
Who I am has really just begun.