John Garland is the pastor of the San Antonio Mennonite Church and Chaplain of the Interfaith Welcome Coalition. John pastors from the discipline of “no action without prayer, no prayer without action.” His applied theology interprets Christianity as a trauma-transforming faith movement, he reads Scripture as divinely inspired through and for traumatized communities, and he understands hospitality, story, and prayer-centered community as the most powerful tools of healing.
In this episode, we’ll hear about why it’s important to consider scripture from a lens other than our own, as well as how we can practice hospitality and why it’s crucial to the mission of God. You’ll hear stories, encouragements, and meaningful lessons from Pastor John’s journey walking alongside the displaced and asylum seeking communities around him.
To learn more about Pastor John Garland, visit his page on the SAMC website: https://www.sanantoniomennonite.org/our-pastors
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabrielle Leonard (00:00):
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm
your host, Gabrielle MichelLeonard. Here we're leading
people to cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection, so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing. I
(00:23):
want to welcome you guys to thereturning to joy podcast, I'm
really excited to have Johngarlin, who is the pastor of the
San Antonio Mennonite Church.
Here on this podcast episode.
John is a man of sincere faith,a man of integrity. And I've
(00:44):
watched his life from adistance, and have have come
closer in some conversations inthese last couple of months. And
what I see is something thatreally challenges me and
encourages me, but also gives mehope, for what could come when
we respond with a yes in ourheart to the Lord. And when we
(01:06):
and when we see people as theLord sees them. And when we
decide when we decide, hey,we're going to be proximate,
we're going to, we're going toenter into connection with
people that the that normallywe've been socially conditioned
to be separate from. But John isthe John is the pastor of the
San Antonio Mennonite church.
And he is also the chaplain ofthe interfaith welcome coalition
(01:28):
here in San Antonio. John is,has been a part time pastor for
the last 20 years. He's alwaysworked with displaced peoples
and asylum seeking families.
He's always held to jobs. He'she's worked in, in the church,
and in church context, but he'sin He's also worked in the
(01:49):
community, he's in communitydevelopment work on the border
farming, public education,nutrition work there, he's he's
been able, he's always I think,when I think of John, I think
he's, he's, he's willing to sayyes, and do what needs to be
done to one be to respond toneeds in his community, but also
to respond to the calling of Godin his life. And so I think that
(02:09):
we have a lot to learn fromJohn, and I'm going to kick it
over to you, John, to also justadd and fill in the gaps.
Anything that I missed inintroducing you, John, thank you
so much for for being on thisepisode.
Pastor John Garland (02:24):
Yeah, it's a pleasure. It's, it's always
wonderful to talk to you all andand spend time here and and
participate with returning tojoy. I really appreciate the
work you're doing.
Gabrielle Leonard (02:35):
Thank you, John. Thank you, John. How did
you become the pastor of the SanAntonio Mennonite church?
Pastor John Garland (02:42):
Well, I was a pastor down on the border for
a good long while. It was acommunity almost entirely of
undocumented folks in that inthat community. And then it
became more of a bilingualgathering. We moved into the
neighborhood in South Town, andwere two blocks in the church.
(03:04):
The church didn't have a pastorfor a year, we were
participating in different ways.
And they they called me to bethe pastor, just before the
immigration crisis beganinvolving asylum seekers from
Central America at that time, soI just had become the pastor. A
few months in, when we beganseeing in downtown San Antonio,
(03:31):
all of these women and childrenprimarily was the first wave
from Guatemala, El Salvador,from Honduras. And we, we were,
we were pulled into thatmovement of response. And I felt
I felt in some ways, completelyand utterly unprepared, and in
(03:52):
other ways, uniquely prepared,because I could speak Spanish
and I could connect withtraveled to some of the areas
from which these families werecoming. And so is this wonderful
combination, which we oftentimesfind in church leadership, where
we are called and prepared, andutterly unprepared and we have
(04:12):
to lean on one another and, andlean on God and lean on a very,
very humble, humble walk. It'sbeen a it's a now these last
eight years in South Town indowntown San Antonio pastoring.
The San Antonio Mennonite Churchhas been a it's been some
wonderful opportunities forgrowth, opportunities for
(04:36):
transformation opportunities forreally, really deep and powerful
relationships. Also opportunityfor a lot of pain and and coming
up against profound trauma andprofound brokenness. And, and,
and feeling that ourselves andfeeling that hurt and feeling
(05:01):
that secondary trauma. And thensometimes primary trauma from
from the the work of response.
Gabrielle Leonard (05:11):
Yeah. John, something that is really
striking to me about you is, youare, you are extensively
theologically trained, you know,you've you have an extensive
background as far as ineducation, you know, in
schooling, and then even justyour parents, and the legacy
(05:31):
that they have. Believe your momis the namesake for the School
of Social Work at Baylor. But ina conversation we had earlier
you talked about how yourtheology has gotten wrecked by
being in proximity to displacefamilies, like people that are
seeking asylum. Can you? Can yougive more more context to what
(05:52):
you mean by that?
Pastor John Garland (05:54):
Yeah, I think it's easy to approach
scripture and the word of God asit is authority. And so when we
approach authority, we get thesensation that it came from a
place of authority, the willwill read scripture from an
elevated place in church, from apulpit people, sometimes people
(06:14):
will stand when they hear theword of God, all that's
completely appropriate. And theWord of God is authority. And it
comes from a place of authority,it just doesn't come from a
place of cultural authority. Andthere's these moments in my life
where I'm just stunned to hearthe Word of God spoken through
someone who is deeply andprofoundly suffering and has no
(06:39):
power whatsoever. And then youhear the resonance of God's
voice and in a, in a much moreauthentic way. And, you know, I
think it's important for us tounderstand the Psalms, the
prayer book of the Bible, it'scoming out of the experience of
exile, and there is no temple toworship and there is no
(07:00):
structure with which to to callon there, they are crying out
from, you know, the rivers ofBabylon, and profound
powerlessness. And then, howmany of the most quoted lines in
the New Testament were writtenin a prison cell, and facing
(07:20):
terrible injustice and hurt andthat that voice resonates? It
really, it really struck merecently, to hear a Haitian man,
a Haitian father, he wasgathered at our Hospitality
House. There just around thecorner from our church, and he,
(07:41):
he wanted to pray many of thefamilies that come from Central
America from from Haiti fromCentral Africa. They come to our
Hospitality House. And what theywant to do is they want to pray,
they want to worship they wantto pray, they want to sing
around the table, and he tookthe scriptures, and he was
reading the scriptures. And thenhe paused in Second Corinthians,
(08:08):
and he described what it waslike to come through Panama from
from from Colombia, and hedescribed as being out on a
boat, they were trying to getaround to the Darien Gap. It's
one of the most profoundlydangerous places in the world.
This jungles stretch with noroad and no no safety. And they
were on a boat, like a largecanoe in the ocean. He and his
(08:31):
family and others and the boat,the boats motor broke down. And
so there they are adrift in theocean. And he described being
out there for two days, and, andand the nights. And he described
what the what that experiencewas like to pray, knowing that
(08:52):
they had no power. And they hadvery little hope except for
their prayers. He said weoscillated between praying and
singing, praying and singing andthen crying. And they washed the
sword miraculously, they washedashore. But when they came
ashore, they they were attackedby bandits, and everything that
(09:15):
they had steal was stolen fromthem. There's this these cartels
that prey upon the the thosemoving through this dangerous
part. And then they went to theauthorities and they were
persecuted by the authorities.
And so here they are, with nosafety and nothing to lean on,
except grace and their prayers.
(09:37):
And he's here describing thisstory and he's crying. And then
he gets to that amazing passagein Second Corinthians where Paul
is like, I was on the ocean. Iwas adrift. All those nights and
when I came ashore, there was nosafe place for me to go. I was
not safe from the wild animals.
I wasn't safe from the bandits Iwasn't safe from my own
(09:57):
brothers. I wasn't safe from theauthorities. He's, and then he
says they are in the prayergroup to this other folks who
are listening, read Scripture.
He's like, This is Our Story.
And God goes before us in thisstory. And this is the part that
caught me. He said, We haveparticipated in a miracle. And
then he told me later, he'slike, I want to keep doing that
(10:20):
I want to keep participating inmiracles I want to be, I want to
be called in the same way thatPaul was, Paul couldn't say no,
to his calling, because he keptparticipate in these like,
profound miracles even throughthe suffering. And so I mean,
hearing that, like I will neverread Paul the same again. I will
always feel the presence of thatHaitian dad and his story every
(10:43):
time you read a passage, youknow, from from Paul, that's,
that's one of those kind ofgripping experiences. That
changes the tone of Scripture.
For me,
Gabrielle Leonard (11:00):
I hear that, and I, I'm interested in what
your thoughts are, because I'mwondering man, so then what is
what do we risk when scripturegets disassociated from that
vantage point of powerlessness?
What do you what do you thinkwe've lost as scripture gets
subtly associated with not justbeing authoritative itself, but
(11:22):
being something that is a bitlike Christianity being a
religion of the state or theEmpowered places? Does that make
sense? Yeah,
Pastor John Garland (11:32):
yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it, it is
profoundly dangerous. But alsowe can just very intentionally
when we read scripture, forexample, I'll do this a number
of times with our church, ifwe're, if we're praying the
Psalms, we first pray the psalm,in the voice of a family in
Babylon. Let's pray this psalm,as if, as if we are next to a
(11:56):
family in exile, they havenothing, they're losing their
language, they're losing theirreligion. They've had to watch
it all burned down. And let'spray the psalm with them. And
then the psalms are the prayerbook of Jesus. And Jesus is
constantly quoting. So now let'sreplay the Psalm and just hear
the voice of the Messiah next tous. And this is how, let's hear,
(12:19):
let's hear Jesus resonating.
Jesus is the eye. In the psalm,Jesus is the one who's going to
craft this for us. And then thethird time you read the psalm,
you read it with a brother andsister, who speaks another
language, that it's helpful, thevast majority of where Mennonite
Church, the vast majority ofMennonites live in Africa, in in
Sub Saharan Africa. And so it'shelpful to be like, Well, now
(12:43):
let's pray the psalm again, andhear it from the perspective of
someone in in central Congo. Andhow are our brothers and sisters
praying this song, as well? And,and you understand, I think the
Hebrews brings up this, thisidea of the cloud of witnesses.
Yeah, it's, it's like this, butit's also it's the humility of
(13:05):
recognizing that this scriptureis a gift to all of us. And some
of these scriptures are 2000years old. And so we're praying
it with, with folks throughoutall of that time. And also, some
of these scriptures are soancient, we don't even know and
they go back to this, this thisbeautiful sort of experience of
(13:29):
communion of the of thebelievers. And I think that
that's, that's for me, that's animportant discipline to D
center, you d center yourself,is oftentimes the safest way to
read Scripture. Yeah.
Gabrielle Leonard (13:48):
Yeah, that resonates in a lot of ways. Even
just thinking about. I went, Iwent to the Philippines a couple
of years ago, it was only for aweek, but I was staying with the
with the family that's stillthis day, like deep loved ones.
And, and I, when I was walkingdown to this little, this little
(14:09):
bench to spend some time withthe Lord in this and it was in a
slum community. And I just feltled to read a psalm. And it was
like Psalms 13. And probably oneof those were David's like, how
long? Oh, Lord, will you forgiveme? I think that's literally how
it started. And so I think itwas self 13. And I started
reading it, and then felt reallyconvicted because of the Lord
(14:29):
Padme pause and he was like,nope, start again. And in that
moment, I realized, Oh, I'mreading this Psalm. And I'm
David, like, David's me, I'm theone who's crying out how long
the Lord will you forgive me?
Like, I'm like, That's thevantage point. And I've my eyes
caught a glance with this guywho was right across the road
who's hunched down, and he waslike, you know, working with
(14:49):
some bricks. And he was like, Iwant you to read it from that
guy's perspective. And then Istarted reading the Psalm. And
now he's David, which made meask the question of man, like,
who am I Your mind stillwondering, Okay, do I get a get
a role in this piece? But butthere was really some hard good
some good wrestling that cameout of that because the muscle
and so the question, Lord, ifhe's crying out loud how long
(15:11):
the Lord you know, where youforget me? What is your
response? What role do I do? DoI play in that response? Like
what role? Like, how is theactivity and the way in which I
live even in the US? Like how,like, how are we connected? It
just there were just some goodwrestling that came from that.
And that was actually for me thefirst time I think that I had
practiced reading scripturewhere where I checked, where am
(15:34):
I sent? Am I centered in thestory? Who else could I send her
in this story? So I think thatthat could be a really powerful
practice for people. That'spractical, but also just Yeah,
filled with a lot of power inlife giving to an end a good
good way into for decentering.
(15:54):
ourselves.
Pastor John Garland (15:55):
Yeah. Yeah, it's, there's, it's such a such
a gift, I think, also to, toadmit, that we don't understand
to, to just sit in all of Psalm13. Like, sit in all of some of
these images and concepts we, wecan't understand. But we can we
(16:21):
can we can let them flow over usand through us. One. Another
important approach that I havefound in approaching scripture
is this, this hint that Paulgives us about the spirit of
adoption, where we're, we'rePaul will say, in Romans eight,
(16:44):
just let our spirits bearwitness to your spirit of
adoption. We don't understandit, but we can bear witness to
it. And I think there'ssomething there's something
really, really beautiful when abeliever approaches scripture
and doesn't say, I now possessthis, I own this, I understand
(17:06):
it. It's more like I bearwitness to it. And in fact, My
Spirit bears witness. And Ithink that that's also an
important experience of thechurch, the larger church, when,
when we talk about sort of theway we're engaging in the world,
let's say we, we host many, manyasylum seekers in our church, we
(17:30):
could say we could claim we aredoing justice, and we are loving
mercy, by hosting them andgiving them protection. We are
we are doing this. That's aprofoundly dangerous way to read
scripture, and a profoundlydangerous way to be church. And
I think a much more spirituallymature way is to say, we are
(17:56):
bearing witness to our brothersand sisters in Christ on the way
we are bearing witness to themiracles that God is working in
their lives. We are bearingwitness to God's provision. We
do not fully comprehend it orunderstand it, we are
participating in it. And we givethanks for that in all, but we
(18:19):
don't claim to completely get itor possess it, or call it our
own success. Yeah, I thinkthere's there's a really, really
strong temptation, okay. Andit's, it's a poll because we're
told, Hey, always be ready todefend, always be ready to give
(18:40):
testimony, always give, and Ithink there's an important
there's a, there's a, animportant clarification of what
we're defending what we'regiving testimony to. So Peter
will say, when you're underattack, you know, be of unity of
spirit be, you know, be Behumble, Be kind, always be ready
(19:01):
to give testimony about yourhope. Okay. And I think that's
an important that's an importantlesson for us that we want to
clarify, we don't have aposition we have a hope. And a
you see, you see this lived out,let's say with Philip, at the
beginning of John, there's thislike really racist attack, where
(19:24):
Nathaniel's like nothing goodcome from there. Yeah. And this
is this is the comment we hearresonating through all parts of
our society today. Nothing, noone good, nothing good comes
from that place, that communitythat them and then you have
Philips wonderful responses hegives he bears testimony to his
(19:46):
hope. And He does it by sayingCome and see. Come with me and
see what I'm what I'm seeing.
You can bear witness also tothis hope. It's less about
saying that I understand Messiahtheology. I understand the
prophecies are coming all nowinto this fullness of time. He
(20:08):
doesn't bear he doesn't bearwitness to his brilliance, or
his depth of understanding.
Philip just says, I'm walking inthis way, I have this hope you
can come with me and see it. Ijust I get oftentimes attacked
in in about immigration issues,really, it's about racism. And
(20:32):
and, and oftentimes people aregoing to ask me really specific
questions, and they're gonna askme, where do you stand? Then I
feel I feel like we oftentimesfeel the desperate need to
respond to that question, wheredo you stand on this issue?
Where do you stand? What do youget? What do you possess? What
(20:54):
is it? Where are you? Where areyou claiming your place? Where
do you stand. And I think it'sreally important for Christians
to understand we don't standanywhere, we are walking on the
way. And Jesus doesn't reallycare about where we stand, Jesus
cares about how we are walkingin the way. And that just
(21:15):
changes the the way we weapproach our, our intellect, the
way we approach scripture, andthat like, who's in the center
of the Scripture, it changes theway we we reflect and how we're
going to respond to the call ofGod in our lives. And I think
that Italy is always pulling ussort of back into that spirit of
(21:38):
adoption. God's saying, You aremine. I love the way I love the
way you talk about home. Andthat that needing for home, that
place where you are completelysafe, where you completely
belong, where you are utterlyloved. And Are we bearing
witness to the spirit ofadoption that gives us that
(22:00):
safety, that love that gives usthat experience of belonging and
home? And then it's almost likea test for us? Are we bearing
witness to that? Or, I mean,it's easy for a pastor, I'm
always been like, you need to besmart. You need to know the
answers, you need to be clever,you need to be a good
communicator. And Peter remindsus no be ready to bear witness
(22:23):
to your hope.
Gabrielle Leonard (22:26):
That's a good word. John, I think I personally
am going to re listen to your,your answer. And, and sit there
and, and wrestle and not I thinkthere's often a temptation,
because of maybe a false senseof security brings to try and
cling to what I know, you know,like, but I can, I can be
(22:50):
assured I know this, or hope oran attempt to get whatever
right. But then all of that canif we're not careful, be outside
of the person Messiah Jesus init can actually be in our own
pride and arrogance. And so Ifind some there's something
deeply humbling about having anyrhythm or practice in your life
(23:13):
where you're constantlywrestling with the truth of man
like we don't we don't possessanything outside of this deep
connection with the MessiahJesus in walking with him. And
recognizing how much should wearen't aware of but are trying
to bear witness to are tryingand are trying to point our own
(23:35):
hearts back to and point thehearts of other people towards
as well. Yeah, it's a it's ait's a humbling road of
unknowing and actually not beingquite sure. But I think we have
a temptation of trying to graspthat assurance in an unbiblical
ways, if you will. But so thankyou, I pray I appreciate you
(23:59):
sharing around that. Becausehospitality is such a key
sinner. In in your life.
Personally, I feel that I dobelieve you have a personal
witness to this not just awitness of it in your church
community and fellowship, butbecause hospitality is so
centered, how has you know,hospitality and connection been
key to well, how is it key toour spiritual formation? How
(24:23):
would you would you speak intothat?
Pastor John Garland (24:28):
So I remember someone who was very,
very clever was was explainingit was I think it was a study of
x. And he was this this teacherwas, he made this bold claim, he
said, The Nothing ever happenedsignificantly, theologically. In
the church, the early church,outside the context of
(24:51):
hospitality. And I was like,wow, that's a wild, wild thing
to say. And then he just walkedthrough all these experiences. A
major cross cultural clashesthat happened at tables, or
happened in houses or guesthouses. And then led to this,
(25:15):
you know, these explosions ofgrowth, not necessarily numbers
gross always but but but this isthe, you know, this, this growth
in the church over this shiftingunderstanding of who we are, who
God is how we walk with God. ButI remember I remember being, you
know, enjoying thinking aboutthat, and then experiencing
that, in our own church, when weare suddenly hosting families
(25:43):
who have who have profound beenprofoundly hurt, who've lost
everything, who've lost theirhomes to the violence in
Honduras, who've lost theirhomes, to the wars in Central
Africa, and they're staying inour church, they're staying in
our guesthouse, they're stayingin our own homes. And many, many
folks on our church, you know,eight years ago, we were all of
(26:05):
our guestrooms were always full,it seems like each evening,
you're sharing a meal with them.
And there's a couple ofapproaches to hospitality. One
is to be the caretaker. And toyou fix the food and you do the
fixing, and you do the preppingand you do you kind of set this
(26:27):
up as like I have taken care ofthis person. And the other
approach to hospitality is moreof a transformational
hospitality, where it's, it's asharing together in the space
and the storytelling and thecleaning and the cooking. And
that that can lead to a lot morereally beautiful. Shifting at
(26:49):
that something that somethinghappened for me where were
someone I can I can remember herand her two children, and they
were sitting at our dinnertable. And we have made some I
don't even know what the mailwas. But I remember as we were
sitting down to pray, she wassaying, I'm just so grateful
(27:10):
that you took us in. I'm so sograteful. It's so kind and I
remember feeling sort of thatthat tension in my heart of
like, we've done next tonothing. It's been it's just so
easy. I remember hearing us, youknow, praying that we like we're
so honored to have you with uslike what a gift it is. To have
(27:32):
you in our in our home, like youare such a profoundly strong
mother, you've given upeverything in your life to save
your children's lives. You'vebeen called horrible things and
you endured you walked andImpossible Road and only by the
(27:53):
miracle of God. Are you herelike what a profound gift it is.
You think about like the Peterwas staying in a guest house
when he had that vision of thesheath coming down with all the
foods, what a gift it would beto be the host of Peter who's
sleeping up on the roof, andthen Cornelius his crowd comes
(28:14):
by, I mean, we don't know what aprofound gift to be the
caretaker of that home. Or Ioften around Christmas time will
often joke about Mary and Josephand the precious christ child
are asylum seekers. And they'refleeing across the desert to
(28:35):
Egypt. And as a church thathosts a lot of asylum seekers,
we joke about turning to toMatthew chapter two and
searching as closely as we canthrough all the verses trying to
find what was the name of thechurch that hosted Mary and
Joseph and Jesus. Like who ifif, if Matthew could spend all
(28:56):
this time listing out thegenealogy, at least he could
give us the name of the of theblessing folks who hosted the
Holy Family, but it's not evenin there. And it's this idea of
what a profound gift it is tohost and to give hospitality.
(29:16):
And again, we are just bearingwitness to the way we are
bearing witness to the mobiletemple as it will we're bearing
witness to the church, thepilgrim Church, the pilgrim
people. And so that, that Ithink that that's a really
(29:37):
important, as opposed to beinglike, Hey, we're doing a
ministry where we're hosting asmany people as we can. It's more
of this ministry of all ofbearing witness, but it results
in two things. And I think thatthis is very, very important to
grasp because we can, we can getreally excited about hospitality
and be like, this is the rightthing. to do it's very simple.
(29:59):
Are you going to leave people onthe street? Are you going to
take them in? It's, but I'venoticed that this sort of
hospitality leads to two things.
One is very honestly, compassionfatigue. And then the other
thing that it can lead to iscommunion, like, right, good and
(30:23):
communion. And I think it's justvery important to be attentive
to all the things that lead tocompassion, fatigue, and a lot
of that is a lack of boundaries,or stress and anxiety. There is
secondary trauma, which is justa really real thing, we have to
(30:45):
be honest about how we'reaffected by secondary trauma,
and anxiety and that these kindof flow into this stream that
can that also flowing into thisis burnout. And, and burnout
oftentimes comes from a lack ofclear boundaries and and rhythms
(31:07):
and Sabbath thing. And thatleads to compassion, fatigue,
where you we can't rightly lovewe can't rightly receive love,
we can't rightly give love thatis a that is a real thing, that
if anyone's being honest, andthey do hospitality, they've
they've wrestled with all ofthese things, and we just have
to be honest about it and notwhat's the word sanctimonious or
(31:28):
not not be like, you know, Ican, I can do this I can power
on through.
Gabrielle Leonard (31:32):
So if you've experienced compassion fatigue,
what is like, what's youradvice? If that's a place that
someone finds themselves in?
Yeah, what what's needed?
Pastor John Garland (31:44):
I think it's, I think there's a there we
want to win the important thingsis confession, confession with
with a safe community, and aprayerful community, confessing,
and then you kind of go backupstream and see the different
things that have played into it,I don't think you can wrestle
with compassion fatigue, I thinkyou have to go back upstream and
(32:06):
see the sources over the lastnine months or a year of anxiety
and stress, and look at at theways boundaries have been pushed
or broken, then you look at waysthat you've experienced
secondary trauma. And you youwork with folks who are well
(32:27):
versed in sort of the in theresilience, and the
transformation of of secondarytrauma and trauma, or you kind
of go back upstream. And youdon't pretend that it's not
there, and you force your waythrough it. Yeah. And then the
(32:47):
other pathway The other thingthat can happen with hospitality
is this experience of communionI think it's important it's
really really important as forto understand that communion is
nasty, it's an it's a ritual wewere called to the Jesus called
the disciples to that Paul waslike, Y'all have to get this
(33:10):
right Do not mess this up. And,and it is a, it is a outrageous
and nasty experience, where, youknow, Jesus says, This is my,
this is my body, and then poursblood. And when we do that,
every Sunday in church, wherewe're like, you know, this is,
(33:30):
this is trauma. This is the,this is the nastiest form of
trauma, it's like tearing apartlife, and spilling the blood of
life everywhere and insanepeople come up and look at it,
and then and then consume itwith this faith, that God will
(33:52):
transform it. If you ever livein real relationship with
people, you know that it ishuman and it's can be really
nasty. Yeah, broken hearts, hurtfeelings. stopped up toilets,
you know, all of the things thatcome with, with living with
other people are in closeproximity with other people
(34:17):
means that you are in, inproximity with the table. And,
and there's something that weare called to as Christians is
to not be afraid of the heart.
You know, we have all thesesymbols in our in our faith,
like the cross, the horrificsymbol of public display of
suffering and death is oursymbol of victory. And the the
(34:41):
baptismal waters, the drowningwaters where Paul describes you
go down into death, becomes thissymbol of becoming one with one
another and one with God. Andthen communion is like God, you
is present at the table and ispromising resurrection. And when
(35:02):
we are doing that, you know, inthe presence of one another, I
think that that's, that's whatwe're that's what we're called
to. Yeah. And it is. It is. Imean, I oftentimes serve
communion. But more often thannot like church, I love to
receive the communion. Andthat's what we're doing with
(35:25):
hospitality. If we're doing itin a healthy way, in a in a, in
a way sort of in the presence ofGod, we're both sort of at the
table receiving recognizingGod's not afraid of the trauma,
not afraid of the hurt, notafraid of the brokenness and is
promising this, thistransformation.
Gabrielle Leonard (35:45):
And John, that's good. I am unashamedly
going to patch this but remindme of the the chapter where the
communion table, the all famouspasses that's read when people
are taking communion. That'sthat's First Corinthians.
Pastor John Garland (36:01):
We Yeah, it so called Paul describes it in
first Corinthians mainly becausethey were messing it up. Yeah,
they're messing it up so badly.
Yeah.
Gabrielle Leonard (36:10):
Well, that's that's actually what I wanted to
point out and see if you hadthoughts on this, because I was
struck. I think in 2020, I waswrestling with I was looking at
all the places where communitythe communion table was being
set. And something that Icouldn't help but notice was
that there was division amongthem, just before pretty much
every communion table, like youcorrect me if I'm wrong here.
(36:31):
But I'd, but I'd love to knowyour thoughts there. Because I,
I found myself, I think often,when we're trying to bring
people to the table, we'retalking about communion in
oneness with our brothers andsisters, there can almost be
this false sense of everything'sgood. And that's why we can come
to the table. But I was seeingactually this messiness, even
(36:51):
just before they were takingcommunion with one another. And
so I'd love your thoughts on theconnection between division, you
know, even just just fightingand tension within the church,
and the communion table.
Pastor John Garland (37:08):
Yeah, that's a good, that's a really,
really good reflection. Andthat's such a good question.
It's almost like, in some waysthat almost like meditation
literature, to think about this,and think about what our
divisions are, in light of it,the division, the cosmic
divisions, and the, in this inthe attack on the Messiah, like
(37:32):
the ripping apart, and youthink, I mean, I can, I can give
you a list of things that I'mreally, really upset about
today. And ways that I've beenhurt, or ways that I've been
offended, and then you put thatup next to what, what Christ has
done, and who Christ is and itand it really, super shifts the
perspective. I think that's whyit was That's why Paul talks so
(37:55):
vehemently about is like, dounderstand what you're doing.
And, and I think also, as it wasimportant is that the gospel
writers who describe Jesus,breaking the bread and lifting
up the cup. And, and in this inthis Passover celebration, I
think also they're stunned.
response. And, and the theshock, I think there's something
(38:21):
about the shock, which isreally, really healthy, because
it can pull us back into anexperience of truth and
experience of, but it can alsodrive us away. I mean, that shot
can also we can respond to it byway I don't want anything to do
with this. Yeah, I ampersonally, really adverse to
(38:45):
conflict. I hate conflict withother people. I hate conflict
with myself. I hate having tolook at the issues and other
people that are utterly broken.
And I hate having to look atmyself as broken. It's shameful.
(39:09):
And I think the experience of ofcommunion elicits all that it
calls us into that here is uttervulnerability unto death, but
not just death, like really baddeath on a cross, it's calling
us to that, that that profoundand doing it together. And, you
(39:30):
know, there's differentexperiences of that, I think, in
when you're working inhospitality, or any sort of work
in in the in the church, thatstepping into lives that have
been traumatized, that have beentrapped that had been torn
apart. That had been torn down.
It's scary. Yeah. And it's andit's vulnerable and and we,
(39:54):
obviously we want to sanitizeit. And that's why I think
that's why Paul's like, everytime you get together, you know,
do this isn't about your wealth.
This is not about you, you know?
Of course, there's all sorts ofwild things happening in Corinth
as well. Yeah, yeah.
Gabrielle Leonard (40:14):
Man, that's good, John, John, this has been
a really great conversation. AndI know that there's so many
nuggets of truth, there's somuch, there's so much wisdom
that you've shared with me andwith those that are listening,
that would be medicine to ourown souls. But also, I think if
we grasp some of the wisdom thatyou've just shared would be
(40:35):
medicine in our communities, andthe places work God's called us
to be present and to serve andto love one another. And so I
want to thank you so much. Weare going to need there is a
part two to this conversation, Ithink you have, you have a lot
of wisdom to share in regards tothe fact of the fact of the
matter is, your community isdoing a lot of work that is
(40:58):
restorative, and I believe, isjust in beautiful work. But a
lot of times that can that canbe if we allow it to be at the
harm of our of our own souls andeven at the harm of the people
we're trying to serve. And soI'm really looking forward to
continuing the conversation inthe next episode, where we get
(41:19):
to talk more about how you'vebalanced like this, this this
work of social justice, but alsoprayer independency and staying
before the Lord and humility asa community and for you even
personally as a pastor. So thankyou so much, John, and we'll see
you guys on the next episode. Ifyou're hearing this message,
(41:41):
you've listened to the entireepisode. And for that I am
deeply grateful. I hope thisepisode resonated with you and
if it did help us out by sharingthis episode, and leaving a
review on Apple podcasts, andSpotify. Most importantly, reach
out to let me know how you'reengaging with this episode, and
what topics you'd like to seecovered in the future. You can
(42:04):
connect with us on social media,or get in touch with me directly
at Gabrielle at returning tojoy.com to share your heart.
I'll see you in two weeks for anew episode.
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm
your host, Gabrielle MichelLeonard. Here we're leading
people to cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection, so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing. I
(00:23):
want to welcome you guys to thereturning to joy podcast, I'm
really excited to have Johngarlin, who is the pastor of the
San Antonio Mennonite Church.
Here on this podcast episode.
John is a man of sincere faith,a man of integrity. And I've
(00:44):
watched his life from adistance, and have have come
closer in some conversations inthese last couple of months. And
what I see is something thatreally challenges me and
encourages me, but also gives mehope, for what could come when
we respond with a yes in ourheart to the Lord. And when we
(01:06):
and when we see people as theLord sees them. And when we
decide when we decide, hey,we're going to be proximate,
we're going to, we're going toenter into connection with
people that the that normallywe've been socially conditioned
to be separate from. But John isthe John is the pastor of the
San Antonio Mennonite church.
And he is also the chaplain ofthe interfaith welcome coalition
(01:28):
here in San Antonio. John is,has been a part time pastor for
the last 20 years. He's alwaysworked with displaced peoples
and asylum seeking families.
He's always held to jobs. He'she's worked in, in the church,
and in church context, but he'sin He's also worked in the
(01:49):
community, he's in communitydevelopment work on the border
farming, public education,nutrition work there, he's he's
been able, he's always I think,when I think of John, I think
he's, he's, he's willing to sayyes, and do what needs to be
done to one be to respond toneeds in his community, but also
to respond to the calling of Godin his life. And so I think that
(02:09):
we have a lot to learn fromJohn, and I'm going to kick it
over to you, John, to also justadd and fill in the gaps.
Anything that I missed inintroducing you, John, thank you
so much for for being on thisepisode.
Pastor John Garland (02:24):
Yeah, it's a pleasure. It's, it's always
wonderful to talk to you all andand spend time here and and
participate with returning tojoy. I really appreciate the
work you're doing.
Gabrielle Leonard (02:35):
Thank you, John. Thank you, John. How did
you become the pastor of the SanAntonio Mennonite church?
Pastor John Garland (02:42):
Well, I was a pastor down on the border for
a good long while. It was acommunity almost entirely of
undocumented folks in that inthat community. And then it
became more of a bilingualgathering. We moved into the
neighborhood in South Town, andwere two blocks in the church.
(03:04):
The church didn't have a pastorfor a year, we were
participating in different ways.
And they they called me to bethe pastor, just before the
immigration crisis beganinvolving asylum seekers from
Central America at that time, soI just had become the pastor. A
few months in, when we beganseeing in downtown San Antonio,
(03:31):
all of these women and childrenprimarily was the first wave
from Guatemala, El Salvador,from Honduras. And we, we were,
we were pulled into thatmovement of response. And I felt
I felt in some ways, completelyand utterly unprepared, and in
(03:52):
other ways, uniquely prepared,because I could speak Spanish
and I could connect withtraveled to some of the areas
from which these families werecoming. And so is this wonderful
combination, which we oftentimesfind in church leadership, where
we are called and prepared, andutterly unprepared and we have
(04:12):
to lean on one another and, andlean on God and lean on a very,
very humble, humble walk. It'sbeen a it's a now these last
eight years in South Town indowntown San Antonio pastoring.
The San Antonio Mennonite Churchhas been a it's been some
wonderful opportunities forgrowth, opportunities for
(04:36):
transformation opportunities forreally, really deep and powerful
relationships. Also opportunityfor a lot of pain and and coming
up against profound trauma andprofound brokenness. And, and,
and feeling that ourselves andfeeling that hurt and feeling
(05:01):
that secondary trauma. And thensometimes primary trauma from
from the the work of response.
Gabrielle Leonard (05:11):
Yeah. John, something that is really
striking to me about you is, youare, you are extensively
theologically trained, you know,you've you have an extensive
background as far as ineducation, you know, in
schooling, and then even justyour parents, and the legacy
(05:31):
that they have. Believe your momis the namesake for the School
of Social Work at Baylor. But ina conversation we had earlier
you talked about how yourtheology has gotten wrecked by
being in proximity to displacefamilies, like people that are
seeking asylum. Can you? Can yougive more more context to what
(05:52):
you mean by that?
Pastor John Garland (05:54):
Yeah, I think it's easy to approach
scripture and the word of God asit is authority. And so when we
approach authority, we get thesensation that it came from a
place of authority, the willwill read scripture from an
elevated place in church, from apulpit people, sometimes people
(06:14):
will stand when they hear theword of God, all that's
completely appropriate. And theWord of God is authority. And it
comes from a place of authority,it just doesn't come from a
place of cultural authority. Andthere's these moments in my life
where I'm just stunned to hearthe Word of God spoken through
someone who is deeply andprofoundly suffering and has no
(06:39):
power whatsoever. And then youhear the resonance of God's
voice and in a, in a much moreauthentic way. And, you know, I
think it's important for us tounderstand the Psalms, the
prayer book of the Bible, it'scoming out of the experience of
exile, and there is no temple toworship and there is no
(07:00):
structure with which to to callon there, they are crying out
from, you know, the rivers ofBabylon, and profound
powerlessness. And then, howmany of the most quoted lines in
the New Testament were writtenin a prison cell, and facing
(07:20):
terrible injustice and hurt andthat that voice resonates? It
really, it really struck merecently, to hear a Haitian man,
a Haitian father, he wasgathered at our Hospitality
House. There just around thecorner from our church, and he,
(07:41):
he wanted to pray many of thefamilies that come from Central
America from from Haiti fromCentral Africa. They come to our
Hospitality House. And what theywant to do is they want to pray,
they want to worship they wantto pray, they want to sing
around the table, and he tookthe scriptures, and he was
reading the scriptures. And thenhe paused in Second Corinthians,
(08:08):
and he described what it waslike to come through Panama from
from from Colombia, and hedescribed as being out on a
boat, they were trying to getaround to the Darien Gap. It's
one of the most profoundlydangerous places in the world.
This jungles stretch with noroad and no no safety. And they
were on a boat, like a largecanoe in the ocean. He and his
(08:31):
family and others and the boat,the boats motor broke down. And
so there they are adrift in theocean. And he described being
out there for two days, and, andand the nights. And he described
what the what that experiencewas like to pray, knowing that
(08:52):
they had no power. And they hadvery little hope except for
their prayers. He said weoscillated between praying and
singing, praying and singing andthen crying. And they washed the
sword miraculously, they washedashore. But when they came
ashore, they they were attackedby bandits, and everything that
(09:15):
they had steal was stolen fromthem. There's this these cartels
that prey upon the the thosemoving through this dangerous
part. And then they went to theauthorities and they were
persecuted by the authorities.
And so here they are, with nosafety and nothing to lean on,
except grace and their prayers.
(09:37):
And he's here describing thisstory and he's crying. And then
he gets to that amazing passagein Second Corinthians where Paul
is like, I was on the ocean. Iwas adrift. All those nights and
when I came ashore, there was nosafe place for me to go. I was
not safe from the wild animals.
I wasn't safe from the bandits Iwasn't safe from my own
(09:57):
brothers. I wasn't safe from theauthorities. He's, and then he
says they are in the prayergroup to this other folks who
are listening, read Scripture.
He's like, This is Our Story.
And God goes before us in thisstory. And this is the part that
caught me. He said, We haveparticipated in a miracle. And
then he told me later, he'slike, I want to keep doing that
(10:20):
I want to keep participating inmiracles I want to be, I want to
be called in the same way thatPaul was, Paul couldn't say no,
to his calling, because he keptparticipate in these like,
profound miracles even throughthe suffering. And so I mean,
hearing that, like I will neverread Paul the same again. I will
always feel the presence of thatHaitian dad and his story every
(10:43):
time you read a passage, youknow, from from Paul, that's,
that's one of those kind ofgripping experiences. That
changes the tone of Scripture.
For me,
Gabrielle Leonard (11:00):
I hear that, and I, I'm interested in what
your thoughts are, because I'mwondering man, so then what is
what do we risk when scripturegets disassociated from that
vantage point of powerlessness?
What do you what do you thinkwe've lost as scripture gets
subtly associated with not justbeing authoritative itself, but
(11:22):
being something that is a bitlike Christianity being a
religion of the state or theEmpowered places? Does that make
sense? Yeah,
Pastor John Garland (11:32):
yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it, it is
profoundly dangerous. But alsowe can just very intentionally
when we read scripture, forexample, I'll do this a number
of times with our church, ifwe're, if we're praying the
Psalms, we first pray the psalm,in the voice of a family in
Babylon. Let's pray this psalm,as if, as if we are next to a
(11:56):
family in exile, they havenothing, they're losing their
language, they're losing theirreligion. They've had to watch
it all burned down. And let'spray the psalm with them. And
then the psalms are the prayerbook of Jesus. And Jesus is
constantly quoting. So now let'sreplay the Psalm and just hear
the voice of the Messiah next tous. And this is how, let's hear,
(12:19):
let's hear Jesus resonating.
Jesus is the eye. In the psalm,Jesus is the one who's going to
craft this for us. And then thethird time you read the psalm,
you read it with a brother andsister, who speaks another
language, that it's helpful, thevast majority of where Mennonite
Church, the vast majority ofMennonites live in Africa, in in
Sub Saharan Africa. And so it'shelpful to be like, Well, now
(12:43):
let's pray the psalm again, andhear it from the perspective of
someone in in central Congo. Andhow are our brothers and sisters
praying this song, as well? And,and you understand, I think the
Hebrews brings up this, thisidea of the cloud of witnesses.
Yeah, it's, it's like this, butit's also it's the humility of
(13:05):
recognizing that this scriptureis a gift to all of us. And some
of these scriptures are 2000years old. And so we're praying
it with, with folks throughoutall of that time. And also, some
of these scriptures are soancient, we don't even know and
they go back to this, this thisbeautiful sort of experience of
(13:29):
communion of the of thebelievers. And I think that
that's, that's for me, that's animportant discipline to D
center, you d center yourself,is oftentimes the safest way to
read Scripture. Yeah.
Gabrielle Leonard (13:48):
Yeah, that resonates in a lot of ways. Even
just thinking about. I went, Iwent to the Philippines a couple
of years ago, it was only for aweek, but I was staying with the
with the family that's stillthis day, like deep loved ones.
And, and I, when I was walkingdown to this little, this little
(14:09):
bench to spend some time withthe Lord in this and it was in a
slum community. And I just feltled to read a psalm. And it was
like Psalms 13. And probably oneof those were David's like, how
long? Oh, Lord, will you forgiveme? I think that's literally how
it started. And so I think itwas self 13. And I started
reading it, and then felt reallyconvicted because of the Lord
(14:29):
Padme pause and he was like,nope, start again. And in that
moment, I realized, Oh, I'mreading this Psalm. And I'm
David, like, David's me, I'm theone who's crying out how long
the Lord will you forgive me?
Like, I'm like, That's thevantage point. And I've my eyes
caught a glance with this guywho was right across the road
who's hunched down, and he waslike, you know, working with
(14:49):
some bricks. And he was like, Iwant you to read it from that
guy's perspective. And then Istarted reading the Psalm. And
now he's David, which made meask the question of man, like,
who am I Your mind stillwondering, Okay, do I get a get
a role in this piece? But butthere was really some hard good
some good wrestling that cameout of that because the muscle
and so the question, Lord, ifhe's crying out loud how long
(15:11):
the Lord you know, where youforget me? What is your
response? What role do I do? DoI play in that response? Like
what role? Like, how is theactivity and the way in which I
live even in the US? Like how,like, how are we connected? It
just there were just some goodwrestling that came from that.
And that was actually for me thefirst time I think that I had
practiced reading scripturewhere where I checked, where am
(15:34):
I sent? Am I centered in thestory? Who else could I send her
in this story? So I think thatthat could be a really powerful
practice for people. That'spractical, but also just Yeah,
filled with a lot of power inlife giving to an end a good
good way into for decentering.
(15:54):
ourselves.
Pastor John Garland (15:55):
Yeah. Yeah, it's, there's, it's such a such
a gift, I think, also to, toadmit, that we don't understand
to, to just sit in all of Psalm13. Like, sit in all of some of
these images and concepts we, wecan't understand. But we can we
(16:21):
can we can let them flow over usand through us. One. Another
important approach that I havefound in approaching scripture
is this, this hint that Paulgives us about the spirit of
adoption, where we're, we'rePaul will say, in Romans eight,
(16:44):
just let our spirits bearwitness to your spirit of
adoption. We don't understandit, but we can bear witness to
it. And I think there'ssomething there's something
really, really beautiful when abeliever approaches scripture
and doesn't say, I now possessthis, I own this, I understand
(17:06):
it. It's more like I bearwitness to it. And in fact, My
Spirit bears witness. And Ithink that that's also an
important experience of thechurch, the larger church, when,
when we talk about sort of theway we're engaging in the world,
let's say we, we host many, manyasylum seekers in our church, we
(17:30):
could say we could claim we aredoing justice, and we are loving
mercy, by hosting them andgiving them protection. We are
we are doing this. That's aprofoundly dangerous way to read
scripture, and a profoundlydangerous way to be church. And
I think a much more spirituallymature way is to say, we are
(17:56):
bearing witness to our brothersand sisters in Christ on the way
we are bearing witness to themiracles that God is working in
their lives. We are bearingwitness to God's provision. We
do not fully comprehend it orunderstand it, we are
participating in it. And we givethanks for that in all, but we
(18:19):
don't claim to completely get itor possess it, or call it our
own success. Yeah, I thinkthere's there's a really, really
strong temptation, okay. Andit's, it's a poll because we're
told, Hey, always be ready todefend, always be ready to give
(18:40):
testimony, always give, and Ithink there's an important
there's a, there's a, animportant clarification of what
we're defending what we'regiving testimony to. So Peter
will say, when you're underattack, you know, be of unity of
spirit be, you know, be Behumble, Be kind, always be ready
(19:01):
to give testimony about yourhope. Okay. And I think that's
an important that's an importantlesson for us that we want to
clarify, we don't have aposition we have a hope. And a
you see, you see this lived out,let's say with Philip, at the
beginning of John, there's thislike really racist attack, where
(19:24):
Nathaniel's like nothing goodcome from there. Yeah. And this
is this is the comment we hearresonating through all parts of
our society today. Nothing, noone good, nothing good comes
from that place, that communitythat them and then you have
Philips wonderful responses hegives he bears testimony to his
(19:46):
hope. And He does it by sayingCome and see. Come with me and
see what I'm what I'm seeing.
You can bear witness also tothis hope. It's less about
saying that I understand Messiahtheology. I understand the
prophecies are coming all nowinto this fullness of time. He
(20:08):
doesn't bear he doesn't bearwitness to his brilliance, or
his depth of understanding.
Philip just says, I'm walking inthis way, I have this hope you
can come with me and see it. Ijust I get oftentimes attacked
in in about immigration issues,really, it's about racism. And
(20:32):
and, and oftentimes people aregoing to ask me really specific
questions, and they're gonna askme, where do you stand? Then I
feel I feel like we oftentimesfeel the desperate need to
respond to that question, wheredo you stand on this issue?
Where do you stand? What do youget? What do you possess? What
(20:54):
is it? Where are you? Where areyou claiming your place? Where
do you stand. And I think it'sreally important for Christians
to understand we don't standanywhere, we are walking on the
way. And Jesus doesn't reallycare about where we stand, Jesus
cares about how we are walkingin the way. And that just
(21:15):
changes the the way we weapproach our, our intellect, the
way we approach scripture, andthat like, who's in the center
of the Scripture, it changes theway we we reflect and how we're
going to respond to the call ofGod in our lives. And I think
that Italy is always pulling ussort of back into that spirit of
(21:38):
adoption. God's saying, You aremine. I love the way I love the
way you talk about home. Andthat that needing for home, that
place where you are completelysafe, where you completely
belong, where you are utterlyloved. And Are we bearing
witness to the spirit ofadoption that gives us that
(22:00):
safety, that love that gives usthat experience of belonging and
home? And then it's almost likea test for us? Are we bearing
witness to that? Or, I mean,it's easy for a pastor, I'm
always been like, you need to besmart. You need to know the
answers, you need to be clever,you need to be a good
communicator. And Peter remindsus no be ready to bear witness
(22:23):
to your hope.
Gabrielle Leonard (22:26):
That's a good word. John, I think I personally
am going to re listen to your,your answer. And, and sit there
and, and wrestle and not I thinkthere's often a temptation,
because of maybe a false senseof security brings to try and
cling to what I know, you know,like, but I can, I can be
(22:50):
assured I know this, or hope oran attempt to get whatever
right. But then all of that canif we're not careful, be outside
of the person Messiah Jesus init can actually be in our own
pride and arrogance. And so Ifind some there's something
deeply humbling about having anyrhythm or practice in your life
(23:13):
where you're constantlywrestling with the truth of man
like we don't we don't possessanything outside of this deep
connection with the MessiahJesus in walking with him. And
recognizing how much should wearen't aware of but are trying
to bear witness to are tryingand are trying to point our own
(23:35):
hearts back to and point thehearts of other people towards
as well. Yeah, it's a it's ait's a humbling road of
unknowing and actually not beingquite sure. But I think we have
a temptation of trying to graspthat assurance in an unbiblical
ways, if you will. But so thankyou, I pray I appreciate you
(23:59):
sharing around that. Becausehospitality is such a key
sinner. In in your life.
Personally, I feel that I dobelieve you have a personal
witness to this not just awitness of it in your church
community and fellowship, butbecause hospitality is so
centered, how has you know,hospitality and connection been
key to well, how is it key toour spiritual formation? How
(24:23):
would you would you speak intothat?
Pastor John Garland (24:28):
So I remember someone who was very,
very clever was was explainingit was I think it was a study of
x. And he was this this teacherwas, he made this bold claim, he
said, The Nothing ever happenedsignificantly, theologically. In
the church, the early church,outside the context of
(24:51):
hospitality. And I was like,wow, that's a wild, wild thing
to say. And then he just walkedthrough all these experiences. A
major cross cultural clashesthat happened at tables, or
happened in houses or guesthouses. And then led to this,
(25:15):
you know, these explosions ofgrowth, not necessarily numbers
gross always but but but this isthe, you know, this, this growth
in the church over this shiftingunderstanding of who we are, who
God is how we walk with God. ButI remember I remember being, you
know, enjoying thinking aboutthat, and then experiencing
that, in our own church, when weare suddenly hosting families
(25:43):
who have who have profound beenprofoundly hurt, who've lost
everything, who've lost theirhomes to the violence in
Honduras, who've lost theirhomes, to the wars in Central
Africa, and they're staying inour church, they're staying in
our guesthouse, they're stayingin our own homes. And many, many
folks on our church, you know,eight years ago, we were all of
(26:05):
our guestrooms were always full,it seems like each evening,
you're sharing a meal with them.
And there's a couple ofapproaches to hospitality. One
is to be the caretaker. And toyou fix the food and you do the
fixing, and you do the preppingand you do you kind of set this
(26:27):
up as like I have taken care ofthis person. And the other
approach to hospitality is moreof a transformational
hospitality, where it's, it's asharing together in the space
and the storytelling and thecleaning and the cooking. And
that that can lead to a lot morereally beautiful. Shifting at
(26:49):
that something that somethinghappened for me where were
someone I can I can remember herand her two children, and they
were sitting at our dinnertable. And we have made some I
don't even know what the mailwas. But I remember as we were
sitting down to pray, she wassaying, I'm just so grateful
(27:10):
that you took us in. I'm so sograteful. It's so kind and I
remember feeling sort of thatthat tension in my heart of
like, we've done next tonothing. It's been it's just so
easy. I remember hearing us, youknow, praying that we like we're
so honored to have you with uslike what a gift it is. To have
(27:32):
you in our in our home, like youare such a profoundly strong
mother, you've given upeverything in your life to save
your children's lives. You'vebeen called horrible things and
you endured you walked andImpossible Road and only by the
(27:53):
miracle of God. Are you herelike what a profound gift it is.
You think about like the Peterwas staying in a guest house
when he had that vision of thesheath coming down with all the
foods, what a gift it would beto be the host of Peter who's
sleeping up on the roof, andthen Cornelius his crowd comes
(28:14):
by, I mean, we don't know what aprofound gift to be the
caretaker of that home. Or Ioften around Christmas time will
often joke about Mary and Josephand the precious christ child
are asylum seekers. And they'refleeing across the desert to
(28:35):
Egypt. And as a church thathosts a lot of asylum seekers,
we joke about turning to toMatthew chapter two and
searching as closely as we canthrough all the verses trying to
find what was the name of thechurch that hosted Mary and
Joseph and Jesus. Like who ifif, if Matthew could spend all
(28:56):
this time listing out thegenealogy, at least he could
give us the name of the of theblessing folks who hosted the
Holy Family, but it's not evenin there. And it's this idea of
what a profound gift it is tohost and to give hospitality.
(29:16):
And again, we are just bearingwitness to the way we are
bearing witness to the mobiletemple as it will we're bearing
witness to the church, thepilgrim Church, the pilgrim
people. And so that, that Ithink that that's a really
(29:37):
important, as opposed to beinglike, Hey, we're doing a
ministry where we're hosting asmany people as we can. It's more
of this ministry of all ofbearing witness, but it results
in two things. And I think thatthis is very, very important to
grasp because we can, we can getreally excited about hospitality
and be like, this is the rightthing. to do it's very simple.
(29:59):
Are you going to leave people onthe street? Are you going to
take them in? It's, but I'venoticed that this sort of
hospitality leads to two things.
One is very honestly, compassionfatigue. And then the other
thing that it can lead to iscommunion, like, right, good and
(30:23):
communion. And I think it's justvery important to be attentive
to all the things that lead tocompassion, fatigue, and a lot
of that is a lack of boundaries,or stress and anxiety. There is
secondary trauma, which is justa really real thing, we have to
(30:45):
be honest about how we'reaffected by secondary trauma,
and anxiety and that these kindof flow into this stream that
can that also flowing into thisis burnout. And, and burnout
oftentimes comes from a lack ofclear boundaries and and rhythms
(31:07):
and Sabbath thing. And thatleads to compassion, fatigue,
where you we can't rightly lovewe can't rightly receive love,
we can't rightly give love thatis a that is a real thing, that
if anyone's being honest, andthey do hospitality, they've
they've wrestled with all ofthese things, and we just have
to be honest about it and notwhat's the word sanctimonious or
(31:28):
not not be like, you know, Ican, I can do this I can power
on through.
Gabrielle Leonard (31:32):
So if you've experienced compassion fatigue,
what is like, what's youradvice? If that's a place that
someone finds themselves in?
Yeah, what what's needed?
Pastor John Garland (31:44):
I think it's, I think there's a there we
want to win the important thingsis confession, confession with
with a safe community, and aprayerful community, confessing,
and then you kind of go backupstream and see the different
things that have played into it,I don't think you can wrestle
with compassion fatigue, I thinkyou have to go back upstream and
(32:06):
see the sources over the lastnine months or a year of anxiety
and stress, and look at at theways boundaries have been pushed
or broken, then you look at waysthat you've experienced
secondary trauma. And you youwork with folks who are well
(32:27):
versed in sort of the in theresilience, and the
transformation of of secondarytrauma and trauma, or you kind
of go back upstream. And youdon't pretend that it's not
there, and you force your waythrough it. Yeah. And then the
(32:47):
other pathway The other thingthat can happen with hospitality
is this experience of communionI think it's important it's
really really important as forto understand that communion is
nasty, it's an it's a ritual wewere called to the Jesus called
the disciples to that Paul waslike, Y'all have to get this
(33:10):
right Do not mess this up. And,and it is a, it is a outrageous
and nasty experience, where, youknow, Jesus says, This is my,
this is my body, and then poursblood. And when we do that,
every Sunday in church, wherewe're like, you know, this is,
(33:30):
this is trauma. This is the,this is the nastiest form of
trauma, it's like tearing apartlife, and spilling the blood of
life everywhere and insanepeople come up and look at it,
and then and then consume itwith this faith, that God will
(33:52):
transform it. If you ever livein real relationship with
people, you know that it ishuman and it's can be really
nasty. Yeah, broken hearts, hurtfeelings. stopped up toilets,
you know, all of the things thatcome with, with living with
other people are in closeproximity with other people
(34:17):
means that you are in, inproximity with the table. And,
and there's something that weare called to as Christians is
to not be afraid of the heart.
You know, we have all thesesymbols in our in our faith,
like the cross, the horrificsymbol of public display of
suffering and death is oursymbol of victory. And the the
(34:41):
baptismal waters, the drowningwaters where Paul describes you
go down into death, becomes thissymbol of becoming one with one
another and one with God. Andthen communion is like God, you
is present at the table and ispromising resurrection. And when
(35:02):
we are doing that, you know, inthe presence of one another, I
think that that's, that's whatwe're that's what we're called
to. Yeah. And it is. It is. Imean, I oftentimes serve
communion. But more often thannot like church, I love to
receive the communion. Andthat's what we're doing with
(35:25):
hospitality. If we're doing itin a healthy way, in a in a, in
a way sort of in the presence ofGod, we're both sort of at the
table receiving recognizingGod's not afraid of the trauma,
not afraid of the hurt, notafraid of the brokenness and is
promising this, thistransformation.
Gabrielle Leonard (35:45):
And John, that's good. I am unashamedly
going to patch this but remindme of the the chapter where the
communion table, the all famouspasses that's read when people
are taking communion. That'sthat's First Corinthians.
Pastor John Garland (36:01):
We Yeah, it so called Paul describes it in
first Corinthians mainly becausethey were messing it up. Yeah,
they're messing it up so badly.
Yeah.
Gabrielle Leonard (36:10):
Well, that's that's actually what I wanted to
point out and see if you hadthoughts on this, because I was
struck. I think in 2020, I waswrestling with I was looking at
all the places where communitythe communion table was being
set. And something that Icouldn't help but notice was
that there was division amongthem, just before pretty much
every communion table, like youcorrect me if I'm wrong here.
(36:31):
But I'd, but I'd love to knowyour thoughts there. Because I,
I found myself, I think often,when we're trying to bring
people to the table, we'retalking about communion in
oneness with our brothers andsisters, there can almost be
this false sense of everything'sgood. And that's why we can come
to the table. But I was seeingactually this messiness, even
(36:51):
just before they were takingcommunion with one another. And
so I'd love your thoughts on theconnection between division, you
know, even just just fightingand tension within the church,
and the communion table.
Pastor John Garland (37:08):
Yeah, that's a good, that's a really,
really good reflection. Andthat's such a good question.
It's almost like, in some waysthat almost like meditation
literature, to think about this,and think about what our
divisions are, in light of it,the division, the cosmic
divisions, and the, in this inthe attack on the Messiah, like
(37:32):
the ripping apart, and youthink, I mean, I can, I can give
you a list of things that I'mreally, really upset about
today. And ways that I've beenhurt, or ways that I've been
offended, and then you put thatup next to what, what Christ has
done, and who Christ is and itand it really, super shifts the
perspective. I think that's whyit was That's why Paul talks so
(37:55):
vehemently about is like, dounderstand what you're doing.
And, and I think also, as it wasimportant is that the gospel
writers who describe Jesus,breaking the bread and lifting
up the cup. And, and in this inthis Passover celebration, I
think also they're stunned.
response. And, and the theshock, I think there's something
(38:21):
about the shock, which isreally, really healthy, because
it can pull us back into anexperience of truth and
experience of, but it can alsodrive us away. I mean, that shot
can also we can respond to it byway I don't want anything to do
with this. Yeah, I ampersonally, really adverse to
(38:45):
conflict. I hate conflict withother people. I hate conflict
with myself. I hate having tolook at the issues and other
people that are utterly broken.
And I hate having to look atmyself as broken. It's shameful.
(39:09):
And I think the experience of ofcommunion elicits all that it
calls us into that here is uttervulnerability unto death, but
not just death, like really baddeath on a cross, it's calling
us to that, that that profoundand doing it together. And, you
(39:30):
know, there's differentexperiences of that, I think, in
when you're working inhospitality, or any sort of work
in in the in the church, thatstepping into lives that have
been traumatized, that have beentrapped that had been torn
apart. That had been torn down.
It's scary. Yeah. And it's andit's vulnerable and and we,
(39:54):
obviously we want to sanitizeit. And that's why I think
that's why Paul's like, everytime you get together, you know,
do this isn't about your wealth.
This is not about you, you know?
Of course, there's all sorts ofwild things happening in Corinth
as well. Yeah, yeah.
Gabrielle Leonard (40:14):
Man, that's good, John, John, this has been
a really great conversation. AndI know that there's so many
nuggets of truth, there's somuch, there's so much wisdom
that you've shared with me andwith those that are listening,
that would be medicine to ourown souls. But also, I think if
we grasp some of the wisdom thatyou've just shared would be
(40:35):
medicine in our communities, andthe places work God's called us
to be present and to serve andto love one another. And so I
want to thank you so much. Weare going to need there is a
part two to this conversation, Ithink you have, you have a lot
of wisdom to share in regards tothe fact of the fact of the
matter is, your community isdoing a lot of work that is
(40:58):
restorative, and I believe, isjust in beautiful work. But a
lot of times that can that canbe if we allow it to be at the
harm of our of our own souls andeven at the harm of the people
we're trying to serve. And soI'm really looking forward to
continuing the conversation inthe next episode, where we get
(41:19):
to talk more about how you'vebalanced like this, this this
work of social justice, but alsoprayer independency and staying
before the Lord and humility asa community and for you even
personally as a pastor. So thankyou so much, John, and we'll see
you guys on the next episode. Ifyou're hearing this message,
(41:41):
you've listened to the entireepisode. And for that I am
deeply grateful. I hope thisepisode resonated with you and
if it did help us out by sharingthis episode, and leaving a
review on Apple podcasts, andSpotify. Most importantly, reach
out to let me know how you'reengaging with this episode, and
what topics you'd like to seecovered in the future. You can
(42:04):
connect with us on social media,or get in touch with me directly
at Gabrielle at returning tojoy.com to share your heart.
I'll see you in two weeks for anew episode.
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