Thanks for tuning into this week’s podcast. In this episode, we’ll hear from Mashaun Hirschler, Mission Leader of T.H.U.G.G.I.N for Christ - a ministry that is aimed at serving those who are stuck on the streets. While mindful of the complicated psychological and sociological factors that contribute to addiction and homelessness, they seek to address the 'whole person' in Jesus’ Name.
You will hear some of Mashaun’s story, and his radical transformation because of Jesus. He was called out of the street, and now has been called back to serve those who are still trapped. He also shares some invaluable wisdom about modeling the way of Jesus by meeting and loving people where they are at, no matter what their situation may look like.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabrielle Leonard (00:00):
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm
your host, Gabrielle MichelLeonard. Here we're leading
people to cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing.
(00:24):
What's up Beloved's? I am superexcited for us to dive right
into this episode because I gotmy brother here was Shawn
Hirsch. Muller will say what'sup, man, Shawn, what's up?
What's up? He runs the ministrycalled Thuggin for Christ and
I'ma leave it to him to sharemore about like what ducting for
Christ is but what I how I willintroduce him is I'll say that
(00:49):
LaShawn is married to abeautiful woman who I love named
brandy. He's got three boys. Heis ex everything. In his words.
He is ex everything exgangbanger, ex prisoner, ex drug
dealer, ex womanizer, all thingsthat would disqualify him to
(01:10):
being a minister of the gospel.
But God, but the good news thatChrist proclaims, I can't wait
for y'all to hear his story.
Miss Shawn, thank you so muchfor being here. Thank you for
having me. Your story. And alsothe work of your ministry is
such an encouragement. Butplease tell us about what is
(01:31):
studying for Christ. What doesit stand for? And why is that
the name that you gave theministry that you started?
Mashaun Hirschler (01:38):
Well, first off, the reason why is the name
when I came to Christ, me and mywife was driving one day. And I
just left the dope house forpraying for some people in
there. And everybody put downtheir the needles, their pipes,
just to come and circle up inthe in the house to print. And
we'll drive on my wife and I'mlike, Hey, man, we need to call
(02:02):
this something like this has tohave a name. And the first thing
that came to my mind was dug infor credits because I've always
been a thug my whole life,right? Everybody told me I was a
duck. I used to proclaim thatover my life like man, I'm
always going to be a duck, nomatter what, I'm always going to
be a duck. And so I'm like manDuggan for Christ like, Man, I
could do that. Right? Like thesame way I was in the streets,
(02:23):
and going hard for for saying,then I can go just as hard for
Christ and put my foot onSatan's neck. Right? And so
saying, Here's my outline. Soevery day I step in to the
streets, man, I'm trying torenounce all the demon spirits
everything and make Satan mad.
So tagging came up. And then mywife, she's so good with words.
(02:43):
She came up with the acronymreal quick. And she liked when
Mandy honest understanding andthen she gave up like a couple
of different versions. And thenshe finally hit the the honest
understanding God gives is nowand I said, what say that again?
She said, The honestunderstanding God gives is now
(03:03):
and I'm like, Man as deep,right? Because when Christ comes
to people, he don't come to uswhen we're in our, when we're
good, right? He don't come to uswhen we already cleaned up and
got better. He comes to us aspeople are shooting up or as
they're smoking or as they're ina state of depression, in the
state of suicide. Those are themoments when Christ really truly
(03:27):
reveals himself to a lot ofpeople in most of the time. It's
in the state of crisis. Yeah,sometimes it's not as extreme as
those instances. But for thepeople in my life, it has been
extreme right? So Dugan, isstands for you know, the honest
understanding God gives is nowwhen is now in the middle of
(03:48):
your addiction hurt andaffliction as you sit and
reminisce on your past pains andabuses are dug for Christ is
someone who helps mend thebroken while guiding the loss to
God who meets you in your mess,to show the mercy and the love
of Christ despite yourcircumstances and choices or
choices. And to meet edges. Imean, it doesn't matter who we
(04:11):
are, you know, Christ loves us.
And He wants us to turn to him.
Right. So let's dug in forcrisis. That's how it came
about.
Gabrielle Leonard (04:21):
No as good, can you I realize, let me let's
go back a little bit because Igot it. I got a question for you
about that acronym. But before Iask that question, I want to ask
how, how did you come to Christ?
Mashaun Hirschler (04:33):
Um, so I was Muslim for about eight and a
half years and prior, so I gotout in 2017 out of prison, my
charges got overturnedcompletely. I was in prison for
robbery, kidnapping and torture.
And somehow I did four and ahalf years and I got a bench
(04:53):
warrant, and everything gotwiped away. So it was no longer
on my record at all. Yeah, I gotout was on drugs and moving
around, I ended up at haven forhope with my son and my wife,
and I had in San Antonio. Andwhile I was here, I started
reading the Bible. And my fathercame into my life and found out
(05:13):
that he was ordained minister. Itold my dad, I said, Dad, you
know, I don't really believe inmy god like that. But if you're
willing to teach me your God,then you know, I'm willing to
try. And so you know, formonths, I've been reading and
just diving in and justabsorbing the word of Christ,
(05:34):
right, just getting it into myspirit. I read it every day, I
have my what I call my OG Bible,and all my markings in it all my
highlights, right? Read it everyday for like six months. One
day, I was sitting in a group.
And prior that day, I woke upand I was raging on everybody.
Like, I was just mad ateverybody. I was cussing
(05:56):
everybody out, cussing theguards out. My son, my wife,
like I was just mad. And I wasplaying pool when his guard come
up, be like, Hey, man, brother,we have in a men's group, why
don't you come in to the men'sgroup? And you know, just chill.
And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'llbe there. Me just naturally
being a man of my word. If Iagree to something, I'm
(06:17):
obligated to do it. Right. Nomatter how I feel, if I agree to
it, I'm gonna do it. And Irealized what I just did, and
I'm like, Man, why don't I justagree to this? Like, I ain't
trying to be around nobody.
Anyway, so I get up, I go insidethe group and I sit down. And
you know, they did a little Dongthing. And, you know, we're
doing a little meditation, andwe're just sitting there and
(06:37):
this gentleman starts readingsomething. And out of nowhere,
everything just goes black forme. Right? Everything goes dark.
I didn't see nobody no more. Thegentleman who invited me fell
asleep. Another gentleman got upand wheeled somebody else off to
the bathroom. Somebody else gotup and left. And that was the
last thing I remembered. Thenout of nowhere, everything was
(06:59):
just dark. And I heard threewords, right. And it was Christ
that said, I was there. And whenthat happened, it was a it was
like a flashback. So you hear inthe movies that when people die,
right? You have a flashback ofyour life. Well, I wasn't dying.
But I did have a flashback of mylife. And in every moment, I saw
(07:19):
when I was younger, my mom wasbeing raped rarely when I was
like, nine, and I felt alone,right? Like I felt hopeless. And
you know, Christ was like, man,I was there. When I was sleeping
outside on the streets with mymom, and you know, cry for like,
man, I was there too. And as hewent through my life, right, he
(07:40):
was just revealing these thingsto me in the day, I went to
foster care at 13. My grandma,she sent me to foster care. And
like I begged her to stay. AndChrist showed me the image of me
holding on to the door. He said,Man, I was there. Right? And
then he just he just kept goingthrough these these these dire
moments. And my mom called onetime when I was in foster care
(08:01):
and said, she left, she wouldleave in Texas. I never wanted
to come to Texas. I'm not fromTexas. And when she said that,
she left Texas, right, it brokeme. And Christ like, man, I was
there too. Right? And, andagain, right, he just kept
revealing himself. And so as Ibecame a teenager, and I was
running the streets, and I wasgang banging and stuff, and
(08:24):
there was situations that wouldhappen, and I get wasted, like
drunk drunk, and I'll call mymom and I'll be begging her to
come and get me like my Why didyou leave me? Why can't you come
and give me I need you to comeand give me because I don't want
to be here. No more. I don'twant to I don't want to live
this life. No more. Christ likeman, I was there. Right. And one
of the images that comes to methe most, and it happened to me
(08:46):
several times, but one time, Itried to kill myself in Austin,
when I was out in the streets.
And I was walking down thehighway in the middle of the
highway, and I was walking downand trying to get hit by a car,
but I was wasted. I was drunk.
And I fell asleep on theembankment on the side of the
highway. I wake up to this dudethat I was selling dope to
(09:08):
right. One of the smokers outthere, man, he picked me up over
his shoulders, and carried meback to my baby mamas house. And
I asked him I said, Man, why didyou do that bro? Like, man, I
want to I want to die. And heliterally looked at me and he
said, Man, so my street nameused to be Casper, right? He
like man, Casper. You ain't likethe other dope dealers out here,
(09:30):
man. Like you care about us. Andlike, man, you can't go bro.
Like, we need you out here. AndI'm like, Man, oh, he made no
sense. Ain't no love out here inthe streets. Ain't no no respect
and nothing. But then shortlyafter that, a few months after
that, right? I'm drunk again.
And I'm on the side of a gasstation. And I'm drunk and I
(09:51):
call my mom and of course shecan't come and get me. And these
people that I sell dope to. Theyroll up and they see me a casper
man wait What are you doing? Andlike, I'm just, I'm out of it.
Like they see that I'm out ofit. Right? I got a dope on me, I
got money on me and everything.
And these these individuals thatare addicts, right, they're
smokers. They pick me up, put mein the back of the car, drive me
(10:15):
to a safe location, put me in aroom feed me Give me stuff to
like, rein me back. Never robbedme, never took no money or no
dope for me. And, you know,saying just made sure that I was
good. And I cried, right? Like,I was crying. And they didn't
treat me any different. Theydidn't, like, look at me any
(10:36):
different. And guys like, man,you see, I was there. Wow. When
we
Gabrielle Leonard (10:41):
think about those spaces, quote, unquote,
those spaces, the spaces wheredrug addiction is happening,
prostitution, gun violence,those spaces where that's heavy,
we think, okay, Christ isn'tthere. He's not present there,
where he is present, is in thechurch, where he is present and
doing work is maybe we mayassume a nicer neighborhood. You
(11:04):
know, like, that's where he'sat. But he's not in these
spaces. Where there'sprostitution, drug addiction,
people, people, you know, strungout.
Mashaun Hirschler (11:13):
Yeah. Now, Christ is more present in those
places, than he is in some ofthe other places that we would
deem where Christ is right. Likeyou were saying, like some of
the cleaner places, or even in achurch house, or in the
revivals, these church events,so they did a big music thing,
right? For all the famoussingers came down and all of San
(11:37):
Antonio went out to the 80s. Intheir crisis, they're in not
necessarily in the projects, andthe ghetto was like crisis more
so present in those darkerplaces. Because, you know, when
Christ was walking the earth, hesaid with the tax collectors, he
ate with the prostitutes. Heslept with these individuals
(11:58):
when they offered to house him,right? And the Sadducees and
Pharisees like man, like why areyou with these people like these
people? Or are dirty, their ownclean the unworthy, right? Why
are you with them? Like, youcan't be the Son of God. Right?
And, you know, he just he justcheck some lay man, who you to
(12:19):
say it is man, like, look atyour life, right? Before we can
judge anybody else or judge whatthey're going through or the
situation that they're at, orthe environment that they're
being raised in, before we cancast shade on that place. And
you know, so as my lifecontinued, and then I ended up
in prison several times. And thelast time I was in prison, the
(12:42):
four and a half years, there wastwo and a half years there that
no mail no commissary, no wordfrom the free world, no nothing.
And it was just me. And therewas times when, like, I broke, I
broke a couple of times in therementally, right, emotionally,
and crisis, like, man, I wasthere. Right. And so when he
revealed all these things to me,and he brought it up to my
(13:05):
present life as I was sittingthere in that chair, and you
know, Brandy, Brandy prayedprior to us coming to San
Antonio, prior to brandy pray,and I said, Man, you need to
pray to God, because I don'tbelieve Oh, my god like that.
And we was only in like, threedays or four days in detox,
right, we'll detoxing ourselves,by ourselves. And she prayed,
(13:29):
and she, like, man, God, bringour kids back into our life. The
very next day, I get a phonecall from my son's mom, saying,
Man, you need to get your son.
Because you know, he already hassome felonies and stuff. He's on
his way to jail. They want totry him as an adult, and he that
goes with you, or he goes intothe system. And I'm like, Man,
bring them to me. And they haveno food. I didn't have nowhere
(13:51):
to go. I didn't have no job.
Right. I didn't have nowhere tolive. But this was my child,
right? And I'm his father. So Imean, to me, I felt like I
didn't have no choice like thisis this is the only option is to
take him. And I brought him inin Christ like man, like I was
there. Right? And he answered myprayer, right. And so when
(14:14):
Christ told me, he was there, hejust showed me all these
moments, where, you know, I feltthe loneliness. And he made me
realize that I was never alone.
Right? When I tried to commitsuicide, I got a big scar on my
arm, where I cut myself, right,and I cut the cartilage on top,
and the cartilage on the bottom.
(14:34):
And there's two veins that runthrough here. And neither one of
the veins was touched at all. Itwas a clean cut all the way
through and crushed. Like man, Iwas there. And at that moment,
that was when I knew Jesus wasreal. Right and that that he
loved me. Period like, and itwasn't biblical. It wasn't like
(14:57):
none of that teaching andnothing It was just simply lie.
Amen. Like I've never I've neverknown a love like that before,
to where you're willing to justbe by my side at all times,
right? And so that's how that'show I came to know and
understand who Christ was. And Ileft that room and I cried for
(15:19):
like two hours, and I smokedlike a whole pack of cigarettes.
I called my wife out, and I'mlike, Man, babe, he's real. He's
real. And she's like, What areyou talking about? I said, man,
God is real. She's like, God,no, I said, no, like, you ain't
understanding like Christ isreal. Like he, he is. He's a
real thing. Right? And, and itwas, it was hard for me to grasp
(15:43):
that concept. But that day whenhe said those be words, to me,
it just, it altered the wholecourse of my life. It flipped
everything upside down. And eversince then, I've been, I've been
talking for him, right? Like, Itook everything that he he
brought into me, and, you know,he, he made me who I am. And the
reason why he did was so I canmen, I can go inside saints
(16:06):
playground, and you know, sayingbeat him up a little bit. Make
some sand in this phase.
Gabrielle Leonard (16:15):
You want to play?
Unknown (16:18):
Man, Shawn, I
Gabrielle Leonard (16:21):
think knowing that story, put so much weight
on when you say like, what's thefirst words of the first part of
the login for Christ? Like theacronym? Like, the honest,
understanding God gives us nowis now it makes so much sense to
me. And I know like, I thinkwhen I asked you like, what does
that mean? When you say thehonest understanding God gives
(16:42):
us now and am I am I right? WhenI say like for you, like you're
talking about the love of God,that's the honest understanding.
And I was telling this toMichelle, earlier, I was like,
man, it's something that Inoticed about the way you talk
about the love of God is itdoesn't feel fluffy at all,
like, you know, like, there'ssome way we can talk about God's
love in a real fluffy manner.
And we're only certain peoplecan connect with it. But the way
(17:05):
you talk about Christ's love andhow it was demonstrated to you
feel so weighty, it feels likerevelation, it feels it
literally feels like this. Itfeels like liberation. It feels
like something coming in andbringing this very divine light,
like busting up the place. Likeif you thought one way about who
you were, and the and what yourpurpose was, or the level of of
(17:30):
a level of destiny that was overyour life or who you could even
be or what limitations werethere. It just all gets blown
up. By this, almost this intro Idon't know if like intruding is
the word but it just seems likeman he comes invading Yeah. Or
it's like man, like there's justthere it feels like the the
words we have in the Englishlanguage fall short, to describe
(17:53):
the level of depth. I think thatyou put to the way that spelled
I'm sure you guys listening canhear it. When you talk about
God's love. It's so deep. It'sso rich. And it really is this
whole revelation, not just inyour head, not just in your
heart, your body, the wholecircuit all everything that's
(18:16):
around you. And I think thatthat's just incredible. So dope
is
Mashaun Hirschler (18:21):
cool. Well, you know, I've never received
love, right? I never receivedhonest love from anybody. Yeah,
my mom abandoned me. My dadwasn't there. My family gave up
on me. Everybody that I knew inmy life, right, the my first
love, she had she got pregnantand had an abortion, right. So
(18:43):
there was never really a time inmy life where I really received
any kind of love. But then whenChrist revealed himself to me in
in that manner, right in thatintimate manner. It changed my
world because like man, like sothis is this is what he was
talking about in the Bible,right when he was living.
(19:04):
There's a lot of words right inthe Bible. There's a lot of
things that he said. But as Iread all the stories, right,
there isn't a story that Ihaven't read. That doesn't
reveal the glory and the lovethat he shows us right that he
wants to give to us.
Gabrielle Leonard (19:20):
So what's some of what's been some of
those passages or stories foryou that you just you see
yourself in and you see Christ'slove in
Mashaun Hirschler (19:29):
the My favorite one is the Samaritan
woman right? When he walks up tothe well and you know, he like
man, can you give me a drink ofwater? And she like man, like do
you know you're talking to like,Man, why are you asking me for
drinking water? And then hereveals all these things to her.
And even at the time that youknow, he was explaining she
still didn't want to believeuntil he invaded her life and
(19:54):
like man, I know about all yourhusbands and I know about the
man that you're with right now.
There's not even your husband,but you Even still, despite all
of that, Riley men, you areworthy to receive what I'm what
I'm trying to give the salvationthat I'm trying to give you.
And, you know, all these doubtsthat society has placed on her
and just tore her down, right?
(20:15):
And so she has she lived in thisin this world where she wasn't
worthy. And heroes this thisrandom man, right? And it just
comes in and says now like, likeyou're more than worthy, right?
You're more worthy than the onesthat have beat you down. Right?
You're, you're more than that.
And because I say so and becauseI see you, I see who you are.
(20:39):
And then you know, you gotbargains, right? The prisoner
that was released. You know,when when they asked him like,
Who do you want the crowd? Whodo you want, right? And they
say, man, give us boredom, asgive us boredom, as I give us
the murderer give us the theperson who deserves to die. And
you know, we won't Christ todie, even though he doesn't
(21:03):
deserve it. And he came down andwove himself in flesh to to save
us because no matter what rulesor anything that he tried to get
us to do to understand His love,He knew that we was never going
to get right. And so there hadto be an act of ultimate
sacrifice. And that ultimatesacrifice was out of love. You
(21:25):
know, it's like a parent dyingfor his child. And that's where
we are. We are God's child.
Gabrielle Leonard (21:33):
Man. That's Michelle, and thank you so much
for sharing, you know, somethingthat I hear already throughout
the story. You know, your story,as you've been telling it is,
how your life has been changedby relationship. Whether it's
your relationship with Christ,how your life has been changed
(21:57):
by people intervening in yourlife, even just thinking about
like the people that you wereselling drugs to how they, they
intervened, and they cared foryou. They didn't take advantage
of you and your moment ofweakness, but they actually saw
you and they supported you and Iloved that story. But meeting
people where they're wherethey're at, I know this about
(22:18):
you that meeting people wherethey're at is a very key piece.
It's key to your ministrylooking for Christ. And I just
wonder why is that why ismeeting people where they're at
so important?
Mashaun Hirschler (22:31):
Well, for the simple fact that in our society,
our churches have placed hissense of burden on people that
you have to change before youcan come into the church house,
even though that's not whatChrist said, rarely. Anybody
I've talked to that, you talk tohim about Christ. They're like,
yeah, man, I'm gonna come to Godwhen when I get my stuff
(22:52):
together. I'm gonna come to Godwhen you know, everything is
better for me, right? I gotta, Igotta I gotta stop smoking, or I
gotta stop getting banging. Youknow, I'm not ready right now.
Right? But that's not whatChrist did when he came in the
tax collectors. Right? He wentand sat down with them and
they're like, man, what can wedo? And he like, man, take what
(23:14):
take what is needed to be takenthat belongs to Caesar and
didn't the rest of it let thepeople have stopped taking the
extra Stop? Stop takingadvantage of the people around
you stop doing the evil thingsright? repent for your sins, but
Christ's quiet switches man, hehe reached a he talked to the
ones that wasn't right. Hedidn't go to this has a cease
(23:36):
and the Pharisees, the peoplethat was supposedly got their
stuff together. But there's alot of broken people. And when
we hear the word of God, we hearall of these college phrases,
right? These people they went tothe ology school, and they want
to give the breakdown ofdifferent months. And like how
(23:57):
all this happened. When Christjust simply said, Man, you will
know my people by the love thatthey give, not by the judgment,
not by how big their churchesnot by how many people are
following them. But how, by thelove that they give you that
would how you normal people. Andhow do you save somebody that is
broken, right? Like, my mom,despite the fact that she kicked
(24:21):
me out at night, right? Herstory is a story of brokenness
is a story of pain. When she wasyounger, she was molested. And
when you know, she got older,her first husband beat her and
almost killed her a couple oftimes. Took her first son from
her in she got when my dad whowas a black man, and back then
(24:41):
it wasn't cool for white womanto deal with a black man. And so
she was prosecuted in right byher own family and then by the
people around her. And so shejust stayed in the state of
depression and is the state ofdarkness right. And nobody came
and met her where she was theydidn't They didn't talk to that
(25:02):
little girl that had to getboxed away. And so she had to
live with this stuff forever andthen hurt people hurt people. So
her pain and trauma passed downto me. And then my pain and
trauma ended up passing down tomy kids. And up until when
Christ spoke to me, right, waswhen everything got altered for
(25:23):
my family. And, but it's like,man, some people will be like,
Man, well, your mom did this toyou know, my mom to this, right?
Her parents didn't do it to her,because then you tell the story
about my grandma, right in herparents, right? My mom's
parents. And then you keeptelling me stories, despite the
color, despite the race, therewas trauma that just kept
(25:46):
getting passed down over andover again. And the thing is,
every time they went to church,they heard all of this stuff.
But nobody just talked to themwhere they was at, it's like
they had to put on a mask, theyhad to pretend. And society
makes us pretend to be somethingthat we're not. And when we do
that, we keep burying our hurtsand our pains. And we keep
(26:08):
burying these things that Satanuses in our life to keep us
trapped, to keep us chained eventhough we think we're free. But
in order to when you meetsomebody where they're at
mentally, emotionally andphysically, what you're doing is
you're talking to the authenticperson, you're talking to that
(26:31):
person. And when you talk tothat person, you can start the
healing process.
Gabrielle Leonard (26:37):
Now that's good. Michelle is really
powerful. Because, yeah, it's socrucial that people are able to
be where they're truly at. Ithink about so many stories in
Scripture, Hagar story is one ofthem. of transformation, not
because someone put on a show,but they were God. They they
(26:59):
witnessed God meeting them inthe middle of a lot of their
junk and mess, whether it wasmess they created on on their
own, or mess that other peoplecreated for them. Or the mixture
of all of that, you know, whichis so much of life is a mixture
of our own mess and junk andsome stuff we inherited. This I
(27:20):
did, and this might be before medid. Yeah. But um, but yeah, but
we find like God's presence,true presence, and our presence
in the mess of it all notpretending is really is
transformative.
Mashaun Hirschler (27:36):
A good example was recently, Messiah
ran away. He climbed out thewindow, crawled over to his
friend's house garden, right,whatever. So the first time I
went over there, all the kids orthe kids, I've been mentoring
and all the kids was in there.
And they didn't see me standingat the screen door because it
was inside. And a lot of peopledon't understand that when you
(27:57):
have a light on inside and it'sdark outside. You can't see
outside, but everybody can seeinside, right? Yeah. So I'm
standing watching them married,and they all got guns, and they
all got drugs and they smokingweed, and they drank and right.
And when they realize who it is,right? They're like, Oh, man,
it's pastor Shawn. And everybodystarts like kind of
straightening up just a littlebit, right? But they didn't put
(28:19):
nothing all the way up, right?
And they come outside. Hey, pas,what you doing? And you know,
long story short, I'm trying toget my son to come out. Well, it
took about 30 minutes for themto take me to where my son was.
As I was there, they're like,man, Pastor, go ahead and tell
your son, whatever you need totell him because he doesn't feel
(28:39):
he's scared right now. Right?
And so we want to be here withhim as you speak to him, right?
And I'm like, I call it the onlyreason why I gave him that
power. Because one of the kidsthat he read the Bible, right?
It's a whole story withinitself. But so I'm like I call I
said, but I'm not gonna tell myson nothing. Right? I'm not
gonna say nothing to him. I havenothing to say. I said, but what
(28:59):
I want is for y'all, to tell himwhy you are really out here.
Right? And this is and we'retalking when you talk about me
somebody in their mess in themiddle of whatever they're going
through, right? This was 1130 atnight. They had guns, they had
drank, they were smoking.
They've been in party mode thiswhole time. And at this moment,
(29:23):
these kids these youngstersstarted pouring into my son
about their traumas about howthey was raised, and why they
chose to be in the streets,right? They was talking about
how they had to eat food, eat asmuch food at school before they
came home because they didn'tknow they was going to have no
food. Right? They they talkedabout the abuses that was
(29:44):
happening that their homes theytalked about going to CPS
because they walked in on theirparents shooting up dope and
smoking dope, right? Andsomebody found out that the baby
was there and took the baby outthe house and he ended up going
to grandma's house. I mean, soThese kids, right? These babies
(30:04):
in the middle of partying,right? Smoking weed and drinking
and everything. I mean, it waslike 10 of us outside, right? Or
12 of us, including me and myson, and they're pouring in to
my son, right? And they'retelling them their pains. And
then they turn around, and helooked back at me and they're
like, Man, can you pray with us?
I mean, that's the best exampleof meeting somebody where
(30:26):
they're at whatever they'redoing no matter what it is,
right. And that's how Christcomes into our life. He doesn't
wait for us to put all of ourmess away. He's not going to
wait for those kids to put theguns up and the drugs up and in
the booze, right and go to achurch house. And then oh, then
now I'm gonna meet you. Crisisand say, Come to me, way down
(30:49):
the street in you will see mejust services. Yeah, you know,
saying Christ says, Man, I'mright here, I'm knocking. And
all you got to do is open thedoor. Right? If you open up your
eyes, you will see me if youopen up your ears, and you
decide that you want to listen,because you know, you can be in
(31:10):
a crowded room. And I can betalking to somebody, there's a
lot going on. But if I if I stoplistening to the person who's
sitting in front of me and starttrying to listen to what's going
on out here, right in thecrowded with all this noise, I'm
going to hear something, and I'mgoing to hear it clearly. And
I'm not going to hear the personthat's sitting right next to me.
And that's what Chris is saying,like, get away from that noise
and listen to me, I'm here. I'malready here. In you know,
(31:32):
meeting somebody in the middleof weather,
Gabrielle Leonard (31:37):
man, it's good. Is there any practical
advice that you'd give tosomeone who's going, Man, I want
to be that person who meetspeople in the middle of their
mess. I want to be the personwho someone feels like I could
talk to you and be real withyou. I don't have to put on a
facade in order to be in thesame space as you. If someone's
(32:00):
wanting for that to be them.
What advice would you you givethem
Mashaun Hirschler (32:05):
you got to be real about your pain,
Gabrielle Leonard (32:08):
like lead forward in that, like, you need
to be able to read about yourown pain.
Mashaun Hirschler (32:12):
Yeah, that's good. And so when I talk to
people, I don't talk to peopleabout like, I don't talk to them
from where I'm at now. That'sgood. I talked to them from the
pain that I suffered. So when Italk to somebody, and they tell
me their story, I myselfmentally and emotionally, I can
go back to a time when I feltthat same way. And you know,
(32:36):
anybody looking back on theirlife, they can see how things
could have been, or are whereChrist was right, or where God
was in that moment. And sothat's what I do. I just talk
from that place, right? And sothe circumstances are never
going to be the same. Thefeelings are, right, we, at some
point in time in our life, wefelt trapped, we felt violated,
(32:59):
right? It doesn't have to be toa certain extreme, to feel that,
that stronger than emotion. Andso the best advice I can give is
being honest with our own truefeelings and being honest with
ourselves, and being able totalk from that place when we're
talking to people because peopledon't want advice all the time.
(33:20):
Yeah, they fix it. Yeah. Theyreally just want somebody
honestly, they want somebody tounderstand. And so when we speak
to somebody, we should speak tothem. And explain to them in a
manner in our story, or whateverwe're sharing, in a way that
hey, I'm not telling you this tofix it. I'm just telling you
(33:41):
this to let you know that I'mhere with you. Right here right
now. I'm here with you. And thatI love you. Right. And when
somebody says that to somebody,that word gets thrown around so
much does Yeah. But whensomebody who means it says it,
that man, I love you, and Christloves you. And you do matter.
(34:04):
That I mean, when when you'recoming from that place, it
changes everything.
Gabrielle Leonard (34:09):
And I think when you when I when I when I
see consistently in your story,when those words are matched up
with people's presence, becausewe can say a lot of things. The
word love has been tossed arounda whole lot. Your loved your
love. God loves you. Jesus lovesyou. But it hasn't always been
matched with presence. Sometimeswe've said it from a pulpit,
distant from my people that arehurting, but what does love
(34:31):
mean? Yeah, yeah, like that'sthe only it's now it's, you
know, it's love with skin on it.
When we win, then we'recommitted to beat to walking
with people in the middle ofwhatever it is. So I like that's
a that's a really good word.
Michelle and I, I hear that. Ihear that. Shawn, thank you so
much for being on this episode.
I think my
Unknown (34:55):
pleasure. Yeah. gave a lot to to chew on. Just the
stories were powerful.
Gabrielle Leonard (35:02):
So thank you for being vulnerable. Being
transparent, being honest, beingreal, being real, like you did
you did all of that. Yeah, Ifelt your presence was very felt
in this in this room. And andhopefully, you guys are feeling
it even just listening toMarshawn tell his story and
until the story of what he getscalled him to do right now.
(35:23):
Thank you.
cool deal. I see ya! If you'rehearing this message, you've
listened to the entire episode.
And for that I am deeplygrateful. I hope this episode
resonated with you and if it didhelp us out by sharing this
episode, and leaving a review onApple podcasts, and Spotify.
Most importantly, reach out tolet me know how you're engaging
(35:44):
with this episode, and whattopics you'd like to see covered
in the future. You can connectwith us on social media, or get
in touch with me directly atGabrielle at returning to
joy.com to share your heart.
I'll see you in two weeks for anew episode.
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm
your host, Gabrielle MichelLeonard. Here we're leading
people to cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing.
(00:24):
What's up Beloved's? I am superexcited for us to dive right
into this episode because I gotmy brother here was Shawn
Hirsch. Muller will say what'sup, man, Shawn, what's up?
What's up? He runs the ministrycalled Thuggin for Christ and
I'ma leave it to him to sharemore about like what ducting for
Christ is but what I how I willintroduce him is I'll say that
(00:49):
LaShawn is married to abeautiful woman who I love named
brandy. He's got three boys. Heis ex everything. In his words.
He is ex everything exgangbanger, ex prisoner, ex drug
dealer, ex womanizer, all thingsthat would disqualify him to
(01:10):
being a minister of the gospel.
But God, but the good news thatChrist proclaims, I can't wait
for y'all to hear his story.
Miss Shawn, thank you so muchfor being here. Thank you for
having me. Your story. And alsothe work of your ministry is
such an encouragement. Butplease tell us about what is
(01:31):
studying for Christ. What doesit stand for? And why is that
the name that you gave theministry that you started?
Mashaun Hirschler (01:38):
Well, first off, the reason why is the name
when I came to Christ, me and mywife was driving one day. And I
just left the dope house forpraying for some people in
there. And everybody put downtheir the needles, their pipes,
just to come and circle up inthe in the house to print. And
we'll drive on my wife and I'mlike, Hey, man, we need to call
(02:02):
this something like this has tohave a name. And the first thing
that came to my mind was dug infor credits because I've always
been a thug my whole life,right? Everybody told me I was a
duck. I used to proclaim thatover my life like man, I'm
always going to be a duck, nomatter what, I'm always going to
be a duck. And so I'm like manDuggan for Christ like, Man, I
could do that. Right? Like thesame way I was in the streets,
(02:23):
and going hard for for saying,then I can go just as hard for
Christ and put my foot onSatan's neck. Right? And so
saying, Here's my outline. Soevery day I step in to the
streets, man, I'm trying torenounce all the demon spirits
everything and make Satan mad.
So tagging came up. And then mywife, she's so good with words.
(02:43):
She came up with the acronymreal quick. And she liked when
Mandy honest understanding andthen she gave up like a couple
of different versions. And thenshe finally hit the the honest
understanding God gives is nowand I said, what say that again?
She said, The honestunderstanding God gives is now
(03:03):
and I'm like, Man as deep,right? Because when Christ comes
to people, he don't come to uswhen we're in our, when we're
good, right? He don't come to uswhen we already cleaned up and
got better. He comes to us aspeople are shooting up or as
they're smoking or as they're ina state of depression, in the
state of suicide. Those are themoments when Christ really truly
(03:27):
reveals himself to a lot ofpeople in most of the time. It's
in the state of crisis. Yeah,sometimes it's not as extreme as
those instances. But for thepeople in my life, it has been
extreme right? So Dugan, isstands for you know, the honest
understanding God gives is nowwhen is now in the middle of
(03:48):
your addiction hurt andaffliction as you sit and
reminisce on your past pains andabuses are dug for Christ is
someone who helps mend thebroken while guiding the loss to
God who meets you in your mess,to show the mercy and the love
of Christ despite yourcircumstances and choices or
choices. And to meet edges. Imean, it doesn't matter who we
(04:11):
are, you know, Christ loves us.
And He wants us to turn to him.
Right. So let's dug in forcrisis. That's how it came
about.
Gabrielle Leonard (04:21):
No as good, can you I realize, let me let's
go back a little bit because Igot it. I got a question for you
about that acronym. But before Iask that question, I want to ask
how, how did you come to Christ?
Mashaun Hirschler (04:33):
Um, so I was Muslim for about eight and a
half years and prior, so I gotout in 2017 out of prison, my
charges got overturnedcompletely. I was in prison for
robbery, kidnapping and torture.
And somehow I did four and ahalf years and I got a bench
(04:53):
warrant, and everything gotwiped away. So it was no longer
on my record at all. Yeah, I gotout was on drugs and moving
around, I ended up at haven forhope with my son and my wife,
and I had in San Antonio. Andwhile I was here, I started
reading the Bible. And my fathercame into my life and found out
(05:13):
that he was ordained minister. Itold my dad, I said, Dad, you
know, I don't really believe inmy god like that. But if you're
willing to teach me your God,then you know, I'm willing to
try. And so you know, formonths, I've been reading and
just diving in and justabsorbing the word of Christ,
(05:34):
right, just getting it into myspirit. I read it every day, I
have my what I call my OG Bible,and all my markings in it all my
highlights, right? Read it everyday for like six months. One
day, I was sitting in a group.
And prior that day, I woke upand I was raging on everybody.
Like, I was just mad ateverybody. I was cussing
(05:56):
everybody out, cussing theguards out. My son, my wife,
like I was just mad. And I wasplaying pool when his guard come
up, be like, Hey, man, brother,we have in a men's group, why
don't you come in to the men'sgroup? And you know, just chill.
And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'llbe there. Me just naturally
being a man of my word. If Iagree to something, I'm
(06:17):
obligated to do it. Right. Nomatter how I feel, if I agree to
it, I'm gonna do it. And Irealized what I just did, and
I'm like, Man, why don't I justagree to this? Like, I ain't
trying to be around nobody.
Anyway, so I get up, I go insidethe group and I sit down. And
you know, they did a little Dongthing. And, you know, we're
doing a little meditation, andwe're just sitting there and
(06:37):
this gentleman starts readingsomething. And out of nowhere,
everything just goes black forme. Right? Everything goes dark.
I didn't see nobody no more. Thegentleman who invited me fell
asleep. Another gentleman got upand wheeled somebody else off to
the bathroom. Somebody else gotup and left. And that was the
last thing I remembered. Thenout of nowhere, everything was
(06:59):
just dark. And I heard threewords, right. And it was Christ
that said, I was there. And whenthat happened, it was a it was
like a flashback. So you hear inthe movies that when people die,
right? You have a flashback ofyour life. Well, I wasn't dying.
But I did have a flashback of mylife. And in every moment, I saw
(07:19):
when I was younger, my mom wasbeing raped rarely when I was
like, nine, and I felt alone,right? Like I felt hopeless. And
you know, Christ was like, man,I was there. When I was sleeping
outside on the streets with mymom, and you know, cry for like,
man, I was there too. And as hewent through my life, right, he
(07:40):
was just revealing these thingsto me in the day, I went to
foster care at 13. My grandma,she sent me to foster care. And
like I begged her to stay. AndChrist showed me the image of me
holding on to the door. He said,Man, I was there. Right? And
then he just he just kept goingthrough these these these dire
moments. And my mom called onetime when I was in foster care
(08:01):
and said, she left, she wouldleave in Texas. I never wanted
to come to Texas. I'm not fromTexas. And when she said that,
she left Texas, right, it brokeme. And Christ like, man, I was
there too. Right? And, andagain, right, he just kept
revealing himself. And so as Ibecame a teenager, and I was
running the streets, and I wasgang banging and stuff, and
(08:24):
there was situations that wouldhappen, and I get wasted, like
drunk drunk, and I'll call mymom and I'll be begging her to
come and get me like my Why didyou leave me? Why can't you come
and give me I need you to comeand give me because I don't want
to be here. No more. I don'twant to I don't want to live
this life. No more. Christ likeman, I was there. Right. And one
of the images that comes to methe most, and it happened to me
(08:46):
several times, but one time, Itried to kill myself in Austin,
when I was out in the streets.
And I was walking down thehighway in the middle of the
highway, and I was walking downand trying to get hit by a car,
but I was wasted. I was drunk.
And I fell asleep on theembankment on the side of the
highway. I wake up to this dudethat I was selling dope to
(09:08):
right. One of the smokers outthere, man, he picked me up over
his shoulders, and carried meback to my baby mamas house. And
I asked him I said, Man, why didyou do that bro? Like, man, I
want to I want to die. And heliterally looked at me and he
said, Man, so my street nameused to be Casper, right? He
like man, Casper. You ain't likethe other dope dealers out here,
(09:30):
man. Like you care about us. Andlike, man, you can't go bro.
Like, we need you out here. AndI'm like, Man, oh, he made no
sense. Ain't no love out here inthe streets. Ain't no no respect
and nothing. But then shortlyafter that, a few months after
that, right? I'm drunk again.
And I'm on the side of a gasstation. And I'm drunk and I
(09:51):
call my mom and of course shecan't come and get me. And these
people that I sell dope to. Theyroll up and they see me a casper
man wait What are you doing? Andlike, I'm just, I'm out of it.
Like they see that I'm out ofit. Right? I got a dope on me, I
got money on me and everything.
And these these individuals thatare addicts, right, they're
smokers. They pick me up, put mein the back of the car, drive me
(10:15):
to a safe location, put me in aroom feed me Give me stuff to
like, rein me back. Never robbedme, never took no money or no
dope for me. And, you know,saying just made sure that I was
good. And I cried, right? Like,I was crying. And they didn't
treat me any different. Theydidn't, like, look at me any
(10:36):
different. And guys like, man,you see, I was there. Wow. When
we
Gabrielle Leonard (10:41):
think about those spaces, quote, unquote,
those spaces, the spaces wheredrug addiction is happening,
prostitution, gun violence,those spaces where that's heavy,
we think, okay, Christ isn'tthere. He's not present there,
where he is present, is in thechurch, where he is present and
doing work is maybe we mayassume a nicer neighborhood. You
(11:04):
know, like, that's where he'sat. But he's not in these
spaces. Where there'sprostitution, drug addiction,
people, people, you know, strungout.
Mashaun Hirschler (11:13):
Yeah. Now, Christ is more present in those
places, than he is in some ofthe other places that we would
deem where Christ is right. Likeyou were saying, like some of
the cleaner places, or even in achurch house, or in the
revivals, these church events,so they did a big music thing,
right? For all the famoussingers came down and all of San
(11:37):
Antonio went out to the 80s. Intheir crisis, they're in not
necessarily in the projects, andthe ghetto was like crisis more
so present in those darkerplaces. Because, you know, when
Christ was walking the earth, hesaid with the tax collectors, he
ate with the prostitutes. Heslept with these individuals
(11:58):
when they offered to house him,right? And the Sadducees and
Pharisees like man, like why areyou with these people like these
people? Or are dirty, their ownclean the unworthy, right? Why
are you with them? Like, youcan't be the Son of God. Right?
And, you know, he just he justcheck some lay man, who you to
(12:19):
say it is man, like, look atyour life, right? Before we can
judge anybody else or judge whatthey're going through or the
situation that they're at, orthe environment that they're
being raised in, before we cancast shade on that place. And
you know, so as my lifecontinued, and then I ended up
in prison several times. And thelast time I was in prison, the
(12:42):
four and a half years, there wastwo and a half years there that
no mail no commissary, no wordfrom the free world, no nothing.
And it was just me. And therewas times when, like, I broke, I
broke a couple of times in therementally, right, emotionally,
and crisis, like, man, I wasthere. Right. And so when he
revealed all these things to me,and he brought it up to my
(13:05):
present life as I was sittingthere in that chair, and you
know, Brandy, Brandy prayedprior to us coming to San
Antonio, prior to brandy pray,and I said, Man, you need to
pray to God, because I don'tbelieve Oh, my god like that.
And we was only in like, threedays or four days in detox,
right, we'll detoxing ourselves,by ourselves. And she prayed,
(13:29):
and she, like, man, God, bringour kids back into our life. The
very next day, I get a phonecall from my son's mom, saying,
Man, you need to get your son.
Because you know, he already hassome felonies and stuff. He's on
his way to jail. They want totry him as an adult, and he that
goes with you, or he goes intothe system. And I'm like, Man,
bring them to me. And they haveno food. I didn't have nowhere
(13:51):
to go. I didn't have no job.
Right. I didn't have nowhere tolive. But this was my child,
right? And I'm his father. So Imean, to me, I felt like I
didn't have no choice like thisis this is the only option is to
take him. And I brought him inin Christ like man, like I was
there. Right? And he answered myprayer, right. And so when
(14:14):
Christ told me, he was there, hejust showed me all these
moments, where, you know, I feltthe loneliness. And he made me
realize that I was never alone.
Right? When I tried to commitsuicide, I got a big scar on my
arm, where I cut myself, right,and I cut the cartilage on top,
and the cartilage on the bottom.
(14:34):
And there's two veins that runthrough here. And neither one of
the veins was touched at all. Itwas a clean cut all the way
through and crushed. Like man, Iwas there. And at that moment,
that was when I knew Jesus wasreal. Right and that that he
loved me. Period like, and itwasn't biblical. It wasn't like
(14:57):
none of that teaching andnothing It was just simply lie.
Amen. Like I've never I've neverknown a love like that before,
to where you're willing to justbe by my side at all times,
right? And so that's how that'show I came to know and
understand who Christ was. And Ileft that room and I cried for
(15:19):
like two hours, and I smokedlike a whole pack of cigarettes.
I called my wife out, and I'mlike, Man, babe, he's real. He's
real. And she's like, What areyou talking about? I said, man,
God is real. She's like, God,no, I said, no, like, you ain't
understanding like Christ isreal. Like he, he is. He's a
real thing. Right? And, and itwas, it was hard for me to grasp
(15:43):
that concept. But that day whenhe said those be words, to me,
it just, it altered the wholecourse of my life. It flipped
everything upside down. And eversince then, I've been, I've been
talking for him, right? Like, Itook everything that he he
brought into me, and, you know,he, he made me who I am. And the
reason why he did was so I canmen, I can go inside saints
(16:06):
playground, and you know, sayingbeat him up a little bit. Make
some sand in this phase.
Gabrielle Leonard (16:15):
You want to play?
Unknown (16:18):
Man, Shawn, I
Gabrielle Leonard (16:21):
think knowing that story, put so much weight
on when you say like, what's thefirst words of the first part of
the login for Christ? Like theacronym? Like, the honest,
understanding God gives us nowis now it makes so much sense to
me. And I know like, I thinkwhen I asked you like, what does
that mean? When you say thehonest understanding God gives
(16:42):
us now and am I am I right? WhenI say like for you, like you're
talking about the love of God,that's the honest understanding.
And I was telling this toMichelle, earlier, I was like,
man, it's something that Inoticed about the way you talk
about the love of God is itdoesn't feel fluffy at all,
like, you know, like, there'ssome way we can talk about God's
love in a real fluffy manner.
And we're only certain peoplecan connect with it. But the way
(17:05):
you talk about Christ's love andhow it was demonstrated to you
feel so weighty, it feels likerevelation, it feels it
literally feels like this. Itfeels like liberation. It feels
like something coming in andbringing this very divine light,
like busting up the place. Likeif you thought one way about who
you were, and the and what yourpurpose was, or the level of of
(17:30):
a level of destiny that was overyour life or who you could even
be or what limitations werethere. It just all gets blown
up. By this, almost this intro Idon't know if like intruding is
the word but it just seems likeman he comes invading Yeah. Or
it's like man, like there's justthere it feels like the the
words we have in the Englishlanguage fall short, to describe
(17:53):
the level of depth. I think thatyou put to the way that spelled
I'm sure you guys listening canhear it. When you talk about
God's love. It's so deep. It'sso rich. And it really is this
whole revelation, not just inyour head, not just in your
heart, your body, the wholecircuit all everything that's
(18:16):
around you. And I think thatthat's just incredible. So dope
is
Mashaun Hirschler (18:21):
cool. Well, you know, I've never received
love, right? I never receivedhonest love from anybody. Yeah,
my mom abandoned me. My dadwasn't there. My family gave up
on me. Everybody that I knew inmy life, right, the my first
love, she had she got pregnantand had an abortion, right. So
(18:43):
there was never really a time inmy life where I really received
any kind of love. But then whenChrist revealed himself to me in
in that manner, right in thatintimate manner. It changed my
world because like man, like sothis is this is what he was
talking about in the Bible,right when he was living.
(19:04):
There's a lot of words right inthe Bible. There's a lot of
things that he said. But as Iread all the stories, right,
there isn't a story that Ihaven't read. That doesn't
reveal the glory and the lovethat he shows us right that he
wants to give to us.
Gabrielle Leonard (19:20):
So what's some of what's been some of
those passages or stories foryou that you just you see
yourself in and you see Christ'slove in
Mashaun Hirschler (19:29):
the My favorite one is the Samaritan
woman right? When he walks up tothe well and you know, he like
man, can you give me a drink ofwater? And she like man, like do
you know you're talking to like,Man, why are you asking me for
drinking water? And then hereveals all these things to her.
And even at the time that youknow, he was explaining she
still didn't want to believeuntil he invaded her life and
(19:54):
like man, I know about all yourhusbands and I know about the
man that you're with right now.
There's not even your husband,but you Even still, despite all
of that, Riley men, you areworthy to receive what I'm what
I'm trying to give the salvationthat I'm trying to give you.
And, you know, all these doubtsthat society has placed on her
and just tore her down, right?
(20:15):
And so she has she lived in thisin this world where she wasn't
worthy. And heroes this thisrandom man, right? And it just
comes in and says now like, likeyou're more than worthy, right?
You're more worthy than the onesthat have beat you down. Right?
You're, you're more than that.
And because I say so and becauseI see you, I see who you are.
(20:39):
And then you know, you gotbargains, right? The prisoner
that was released. You know,when when they asked him like,
Who do you want the crowd? Whodo you want, right? And they
say, man, give us boredom, asgive us boredom, as I give us
the murderer give us the theperson who deserves to die. And
you know, we won't Christ todie, even though he doesn't
(21:03):
deserve it. And he came down andwove himself in flesh to to save
us because no matter what rulesor anything that he tried to get
us to do to understand His love,He knew that we was never going
to get right. And so there hadto be an act of ultimate
sacrifice. And that ultimatesacrifice was out of love. You
(21:25):
know, it's like a parent dyingfor his child. And that's where
we are. We are God's child.
Gabrielle Leonard (21:33):
Man. That's Michelle, and thank you so much
for sharing, you know, somethingthat I hear already throughout
the story. You know, your story,as you've been telling it is,
how your life has been changedby relationship. Whether it's
your relationship with Christ,how your life has been changed
(21:57):
by people intervening in yourlife, even just thinking about
like the people that you wereselling drugs to how they, they
intervened, and they cared foryou. They didn't take advantage
of you and your moment ofweakness, but they actually saw
you and they supported you and Iloved that story. But meeting
people where they're wherethey're at, I know this about
(22:18):
you that meeting people wherethey're at is a very key piece.
It's key to your ministrylooking for Christ. And I just
wonder why is that why ismeeting people where they're at
so important?
Mashaun Hirschler (22:31):
Well, for the simple fact that in our society,
our churches have placed hissense of burden on people that
you have to change before youcan come into the church house,
even though that's not whatChrist said, rarely. Anybody
I've talked to that, you talk tohim about Christ. They're like,
yeah, man, I'm gonna come to Godwhen when I get my stuff
(22:52):
together. I'm gonna come to Godwhen you know, everything is
better for me, right? I gotta, Igotta I gotta stop smoking, or I
gotta stop getting banging. Youknow, I'm not ready right now.
Right? But that's not whatChrist did when he came in the
tax collectors. Right? He wentand sat down with them and
they're like, man, what can wedo? And he like, man, take what
(23:14):
take what is needed to be takenthat belongs to Caesar and
didn't the rest of it let thepeople have stopped taking the
extra Stop? Stop takingadvantage of the people around
you stop doing the evil thingsright? repent for your sins, but
Christ's quiet switches man, hehe reached a he talked to the
ones that wasn't right. Hedidn't go to this has a cease
(23:36):
and the Pharisees, the peoplethat was supposedly got their
stuff together. But there's alot of broken people. And when
we hear the word of God, we hearall of these college phrases,
right? These people they went tothe ology school, and they want
to give the breakdown ofdifferent months. And like how
(23:57):
all this happened. When Christjust simply said, Man, you will
know my people by the love thatthey give, not by the judgment,
not by how big their churchesnot by how many people are
following them. But how, by thelove that they give you that
would how you normal people. Andhow do you save somebody that is
broken, right? Like, my mom,despite the fact that she kicked
(24:21):
me out at night, right? Herstory is a story of brokenness
is a story of pain. When she wasyounger, she was molested. And
when you know, she got older,her first husband beat her and
almost killed her a couple oftimes. Took her first son from
her in she got when my dad whowas a black man, and back then
(24:41):
it wasn't cool for white womanto deal with a black man. And so
she was prosecuted in right byher own family and then by the
people around her. And so shejust stayed in the state of
depression and is the state ofdarkness right. And nobody came
and met her where she was theydidn't They didn't talk to that
(25:02):
little girl that had to getboxed away. And so she had to
live with this stuff forever andthen hurt people hurt people. So
her pain and trauma passed downto me. And then my pain and
trauma ended up passing down tomy kids. And up until when
Christ spoke to me, right, waswhen everything got altered for
(25:23):
my family. And, but it's like,man, some people will be like,
Man, well, your mom did this toyou know, my mom to this, right?
Her parents didn't do it to her,because then you tell the story
about my grandma, right in herparents, right? My mom's
parents. And then you keeptelling me stories, despite the
color, despite the race, therewas trauma that just kept
(25:46):
getting passed down over andover again. And the thing is,
every time they went to church,they heard all of this stuff.
But nobody just talked to themwhere they was at, it's like
they had to put on a mask, theyhad to pretend. And society
makes us pretend to be somethingthat we're not. And when we do
that, we keep burying our hurtsand our pains. And we keep
(26:08):
burying these things that Satanuses in our life to keep us
trapped, to keep us chained eventhough we think we're free. But
in order to when you meetsomebody where they're at
mentally, emotionally andphysically, what you're doing is
you're talking to the authenticperson, you're talking to that
(26:31):
person. And when you talk tothat person, you can start the
healing process.
Gabrielle Leonard (26:37):
Now that's good. Michelle is really
powerful. Because, yeah, it's socrucial that people are able to
be where they're truly at. Ithink about so many stories in
Scripture, Hagar story is one ofthem. of transformation, not
because someone put on a show,but they were God. They they
(26:59):
witnessed God meeting them inthe middle of a lot of their
junk and mess, whether it wasmess they created on on their
own, or mess that other peoplecreated for them. Or the mixture
of all of that, you know, whichis so much of life is a mixture
of our own mess and junk andsome stuff we inherited. This I
(27:20):
did, and this might be before medid. Yeah. But um, but yeah, but
we find like God's presence,true presence, and our presence
in the mess of it all notpretending is really is
transformative.
Mashaun Hirschler (27:36):
A good example was recently, Messiah
ran away. He climbed out thewindow, crawled over to his
friend's house garden, right,whatever. So the first time I
went over there, all the kids orthe kids, I've been mentoring
and all the kids was in there.
And they didn't see me standingat the screen door because it
was inside. And a lot of peopledon't understand that when you
(27:57):
have a light on inside and it'sdark outside. You can't see
outside, but everybody can seeinside, right? Yeah. So I'm
standing watching them married,and they all got guns, and they
all got drugs and they smokingweed, and they drank and right.
And when they realize who it is,right? They're like, Oh, man,
it's pastor Shawn. And everybodystarts like kind of
straightening up just a littlebit, right? But they didn't put
(28:19):
nothing all the way up, right?
And they come outside. Hey, pas,what you doing? And you know,
long story short, I'm trying toget my son to come out. Well, it
took about 30 minutes for themto take me to where my son was.
As I was there, they're like,man, Pastor, go ahead and tell
your son, whatever you need totell him because he doesn't feel
(28:39):
he's scared right now. Right?
And so we want to be here withhim as you speak to him, right?
And I'm like, I call it the onlyreason why I gave him that
power. Because one of the kidsthat he read the Bible, right?
It's a whole story withinitself. But so I'm like I call I
said, but I'm not gonna tell myson nothing. Right? I'm not
gonna say nothing to him. I havenothing to say. I said, but what
(28:59):
I want is for y'all, to tell himwhy you are really out here.
Right? And this is and we'retalking when you talk about me
somebody in their mess in themiddle of whatever they're going
through, right? This was 1130 atnight. They had guns, they had
drank, they were smoking.
They've been in party mode thiswhole time. And at this moment,
(29:23):
these kids these youngstersstarted pouring into my son
about their traumas about howthey was raised, and why they
chose to be in the streets,right? They was talking about
how they had to eat food, eat asmuch food at school before they
came home because they didn'tknow they was going to have no
food. Right? They they talkedabout the abuses that was
(29:44):
happening that their homes theytalked about going to CPS
because they walked in on theirparents shooting up dope and
smoking dope, right? Andsomebody found out that the baby
was there and took the baby outthe house and he ended up going
to grandma's house. I mean, soThese kids, right? These babies
(30:04):
in the middle of partying,right? Smoking weed and drinking
and everything. I mean, it waslike 10 of us outside, right? Or
12 of us, including me and myson, and they're pouring in to
my son, right? And they'retelling them their pains. And
then they turn around, and helooked back at me and they're
like, Man, can you pray with us?
I mean, that's the best exampleof meeting somebody where
(30:26):
they're at whatever they'redoing no matter what it is,
right. And that's how Christcomes into our life. He doesn't
wait for us to put all of ourmess away. He's not going to
wait for those kids to put theguns up and the drugs up and in
the booze, right and go to achurch house. And then oh, then
now I'm gonna meet you. Crisisand say, Come to me, way down
(30:49):
the street in you will see mejust services. Yeah, you know,
saying Christ says, Man, I'mright here, I'm knocking. And
all you got to do is open thedoor. Right? If you open up your
eyes, you will see me if youopen up your ears, and you
decide that you want to listen,because you know, you can be in
(31:10):
a crowded room. And I can betalking to somebody, there's a
lot going on. But if I if I stoplistening to the person who's
sitting in front of me and starttrying to listen to what's going
on out here, right in thecrowded with all this noise, I'm
going to hear something, and I'mgoing to hear it clearly. And
I'm not going to hear the personthat's sitting right next to me.
And that's what Chris is saying,like, get away from that noise
and listen to me, I'm here. I'malready here. In you know,
(31:32):
meeting somebody in the middleof weather,
Gabrielle Leonard (31:37):
man, it's good. Is there any practical
advice that you'd give tosomeone who's going, Man, I want
to be that person who meetspeople in the middle of their
mess. I want to be the personwho someone feels like I could
talk to you and be real withyou. I don't have to put on a
facade in order to be in thesame space as you. If someone's
(32:00):
wanting for that to be them.
What advice would you you givethem
Mashaun Hirschler (32:05):
you got to be real about your pain,
Gabrielle Leonard (32:08):
like lead forward in that, like, you need
to be able to read about yourown pain.
Mashaun Hirschler (32:12):
Yeah, that's good. And so when I talk to
people, I don't talk to peopleabout like, I don't talk to them
from where I'm at now. That'sgood. I talked to them from the
pain that I suffered. So when Italk to somebody, and they tell
me their story, I myselfmentally and emotionally, I can
go back to a time when I feltthat same way. And you know,
(32:36):
anybody looking back on theirlife, they can see how things
could have been, or are whereChrist was right, or where God
was in that moment. And sothat's what I do. I just talk
from that place, right? And sothe circumstances are never
going to be the same. Thefeelings are, right, we, at some
point in time in our life, wefelt trapped, we felt violated,
(32:59):
right? It doesn't have to be toa certain extreme, to feel that,
that stronger than emotion. Andso the best advice I can give is
being honest with our own truefeelings and being honest with
ourselves, and being able totalk from that place when we're
talking to people because peopledon't want advice all the time.
(33:20):
Yeah, they fix it. Yeah. Theyreally just want somebody
honestly, they want somebody tounderstand. And so when we speak
to somebody, we should speak tothem. And explain to them in a
manner in our story, or whateverwe're sharing, in a way that
hey, I'm not telling you this tofix it. I'm just telling you
(33:41):
this to let you know that I'mhere with you. Right here right
now. I'm here with you. And thatI love you. Right. And when
somebody says that to somebody,that word gets thrown around so
much does Yeah. But whensomebody who means it says it,
that man, I love you, and Christloves you. And you do matter.
(34:04):
That I mean, when when you'recoming from that place, it
changes everything.
Gabrielle Leonard (34:09):
And I think when you when I when I when I
see consistently in your story,when those words are matched up
with people's presence, becausewe can say a lot of things. The
word love has been tossed arounda whole lot. Your loved your
love. God loves you. Jesus lovesyou. But it hasn't always been
matched with presence. Sometimeswe've said it from a pulpit,
distant from my people that arehurting, but what does love
(34:31):
mean? Yeah, yeah, like that'sthe only it's now it's, you
know, it's love with skin on it.
When we win, then we'recommitted to beat to walking
with people in the middle ofwhatever it is. So I like that's
a that's a really good word.
Michelle and I, I hear that. Ihear that. Shawn, thank you so
much for being on this episode.
I think my
Unknown (34:55):
pleasure. Yeah. gave a lot to to chew on. Just the
stories were powerful.
Gabrielle Leonard (35:02):
So thank you for being vulnerable. Being
transparent, being honest, beingreal, being real, like you did
you did all of that. Yeah, Ifelt your presence was very felt
in this in this room. And andhopefully, you guys are feeling
it even just listening toMarshawn tell his story and
until the story of what he getscalled him to do right now.
(35:23):
Thank you.
cool deal. I see ya! If you'rehearing this message, you've
listened to the entire episode.
And for that I am deeplygrateful. I hope this episode
resonated with you and if it didhelp us out by sharing this
episode, and leaving a review onApple podcasts, and Spotify.
Most importantly, reach out tolet me know how you're engaging
(35:44):
with this episode, and whattopics you'd like to see covered
in the future. You can connectwith us on social media, or get
in touch with me directly atGabrielle at returning to
joy.com to share your heart.
I'll see you in two weeks for anew episode.
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