April 12, 2023 • 34 mins
This episode is a continued conversation with John Garland, pastor of the San Antonio Mennonite Church and Chaplain of the Interfaith Welcome Coalition. As you heard in the previous episode, much of his work and mission is dedicated to displaced and marginalized families in his area. As a result, he often has to confront questions that we would do well to consider for ourselves - questions of justice, division, action - and how can we be sure we’re doing the right thing?
Together we’ll wrestle with some of these questions, and learn about ways that we can be aligned with God’s heart for those in need, and also how we can sustain in this work by recognizing our participation in God’s miracles around us.
To learn more about Pastor John Garland, visit his page on the SAMC website: https://www.sanantoniomennonite.org/our-pastors
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Episode Transcript
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Gabrielle Leonard (00:00):
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm
your host, Gabrielle MichelLeonard. Here we're leading
people to cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing. Hey
(00:24):
Beloved's. In this episode,you're going to be hearing part
two of a conversation withPastor John garlin. If you were
with us in the previous episode,you know that he is the pastor
of the San Antonio MennoniteChurch. And he's the chaplain of
the interfaith welcome coalitionhere in San Antonio. This
conversation is going to talkabout necessary spiritual
(00:45):
disciplines and rhythms,justice, and how do we ask
Kingdom questions? So here it ispart two of conversation with
Pastor John garland. All right,John, we'll just saying I feel
extremely grateful to be sittingdown and having this
conversation with you. BecauseJohn, whether you know it or
not, you exude wisdom, that ishumble, and wisdom that has been
(01:13):
matured through pain, and hope,and wrestling and, and praise
and forged and community. It isnot isolated. And it's connected
to Christ. And I'm I'm deeplyencouraged by it. And so this
feels like a severe gym to beable to have these conversations
(01:34):
with you. And so thank you for,for being present today.
Pastor John Garland (01:38):
Well, it's a it's a pleasure to be here.
And thank you for wrapping allthis up in prayer in this space
and your podcast and this workand this calling in prayer. It's
really wonderful to step into.
Yeah, well,
Gabrielle Leonard (01:50):
I appreciate that. It's intentional. It's
intentional. Well, John, we hada really great conversation last
time. And that prompted somequestions that I think will be
helpful for people that arelistening, that are involved in
work where they would go, man, Iam trying to pursue justice, or
(02:14):
they longed to see it, I thinkit it begs the question for you
to tell us how you're practicingthe rhythm and discipline of
resistance and connection. Andthen to on top of that answer
for us, how do these disciplineskeep you from losing your
humanity, humanity? You know,like, betraying your soul
(02:36):
betraying actually the verything that God put it you put in
you?
Pastor John Garland (02:39):
Yeah, I it's so important to resist,
we're called the resist, recall,the resist evil, we're called to
resist the Empire. We're calledto resist temptations. We're
called to resist suffering, andthe suffering of others. And we
have to do that. And when we'relooking at the world, today,
we're looking at the headlines,we're listening to the news,
(03:00):
there's so much injustice thatwe have to resist. There is a
lot of it is political. A lot ofit is rooted in racism and
poverty, and horrific waves ofof human suffering that we can't
even comprehend. And it feelslike a very black and white
thing, you can do the rightthing, or you can perpetuate the
(03:22):
wrong thing. And that sense ofthat understanding of justice as
a judge in in dark robes, sayingguilty or not guilty, that black
and white, it occupies animportant part in our brain, in
our experience. And I think wehave to be open to that and
understand when we're pulledtoward being right and being on
(03:43):
the right side of history. Beingon the right side of an event,
spiritually, that's very, verydangerous. And because you can
get caught up in just resistingand being right, and then you're
seeking your own righteousness,as opposed to seeking true
justice and we meditate on theword every morning nearly it's
(04:06):
in so many of the psalms that wepray in the morning, this
ancient word mish pot, thatwhich is God's justice. It's
translated as Justice mish pot,but it's very much an
understanding of, of judgment,God's judgment and judge justice
mish pot it's everything isright because God is is raining
(04:29):
this understanding of mish potand so that pulls us spiritually
toward this connection. We wantto connect to that that's so
good. We're resisting Babylon.
We're resisting the Empire.
We're resisting hurt andsuffering and the perpetuation
of of evil. But we're alsoconnecting deeply to God's mish
(04:49):
pot God's justice. So it's notus seeking our own
righteousness. How will mygrandkids remember me? How will
I be remembered in the historybooks? Well, we won't be it's a
sin We endeavor but But God'smish pot God is that that's
forever it's eternal. It'slinked oftentimes to the this
alarm, the eternity of, of God.
And so as Christians, especiallywhen you're doing work in, in
(05:13):
unjust places, it's vital torecognize what we are resisting,
and what we are activelyconnecting to. And we connect,
we connect to God through thedisciplines that through prayer
disciplines, and disciplines ofsimplicity, and confession,
disciplines of Sabbath andresting in our powerlessness,
(05:35):
disciplines of humility, andsharing these really, really
important disciplines thatconnect us to God even while we
are resisting the things thatare pulling us in to mirror
Babylon to mirror thetemptations to mirror the
wickedness that is perpetuatedand so that that's an that's an
(05:59):
important thing to do. To feelthat rhythm. I like to think of
it as a foot Yeah, I come downwith my heel Yeah, it's that you
know, messianic image of theheel of the Messiah stepping on
the snake. Yeah. And and thenthere's the the moving forward
with the the five toesrepresenting these different
(06:19):
prayer disciplines that pull ustoward God's mish pot, God's
justice.
Gabrielle Leonard (06:27):
Man, John, I think it's actually a great
analogy. And you know, if youguys are listening, you'll have
to visualize what he's doing, orwhat you just did of that, of,
you know, pressing down on ourheel of a foot and how that's a
resistance. And then thismovement forward with the five
toes of connecting, I reallyliked that.
Pastor John Garland (06:44):
And other times you land with your toes,
especially when you'resprinting, you're going faster,
forward. And that's what happenswith the prayer disciplines. And
the end these these spiritualdisciplines, were pulled by
them, and then we're landing andwe have to reject, we have to
resist. And so when you're, whenyou're praying for your brothers
(07:04):
and sisters who are suffering,yeah, you then are yanked into
resistance of the perpetuationof this injustice, that that's
holding them down. The other wayto think about it also is, if
you're resisting something, whatare you then calling for it to
be replaced by? It's good. Andthat's it. That's, for example,
(07:24):
let's say, we often get callsfrom the immigration prisons,
these detention centers someonebegging to be liberated. Yeah,
they're going to be sponsoredout or uh, yesterday, I got a
call from an ice officer, hesaid, We pastor, would you take
this family, they have nowhereto go. They're languishing here
in the prison. There's no reasonfor them to be here. Would you
(07:45):
take them and give them a say, Iwant to resist the injustice of
a incarcerated family. I want toresist the injustice of some for
profit company making money offof the suffering of a father and
a mother and children want toresist that. But then what am I
bringing them into? Am Ibringing them into a silent room
(08:09):
with no community? And am Ibringing them into a place of
like, lousy fast food and andloneliness? Yeah. Or are we
bring them into a rich, vibrantspiritual community with rhythms
of prayer and service? Or havewe connected to God's mish pot
first, that we can resist theinjustice and say, come and
(08:31):
participate here come be a partof this Christ centered
community. And so I like I thinkit's, it's, it's easy to make
the sign and hold it up. It'seasy to stand on the soapbox and
declare the unrighteousness ofothers and the injustice of
others. Sometimes that can beactually pretty fun and
creative. But then we as aChristian community is the body
(08:54):
of Christ were called toactually participate in true
mish pot true justice. Which is,it's one of the things that you
know, Micah, six, eight says, Domish pot, do do this mish pot,
participate in God's justice,God's judgment. And that's the
(09:15):
other thing is in our world, wealways want to be right. We
always want to have arguments,we want to have positions, we
want to say where we are. And soI find that also I will be it
was given the immigrationquestions. I'm always asked the
same three questions. It'salways it's always is some
iteration of the same threequestions. And one of them is
(09:35):
like a legal question astructure question like, aren't
we a nation of borders?
Shouldn't we uphold what is anation that doesn't have
borders? If if the borders fallapart, everything falls apart?
If rules fall apart, everythingfalls apart? If these people are
willing to break the rules, andcome to our country, then how
could then they are going toundermine all sense of order.
There's those questions. Andthen there's another question
(09:57):
which is an economic questionsays Here's the question, why
should we take care of them? Whyshould we pay for all the
world's problems? What we don'thave enough resources? Why
should we have to share? Andthen the third question is a
fear of change question. It'slike, it's like, if they come,
what's going to happen to oureconomy? What's gonna happen to
(10:17):
our language system, oureducation system, our healthcare
system? What's going to happento our culture? What's going to
happen to our worship? What'sgoing to happen to all these
things that are, I'm afraid willchange. So there's these three
sort of fear based questions. Wealways have them whenever
there's an issue of injustice,whenever there's an issue of of
(10:39):
hurt or suffering, we're alwaysgoing to have the same three
questions really, almost always,there's fear based questions
like, I'm worried that order isgoing to fall apart. I'm worried
there's not enough resources.
I'm worried that I'm going tohave to change or we're going to
change. What am I going to lose?
Yeah. And it's really temptingto jump into those debates, and
(11:00):
love. Well, let's talk about theeconomics of immigration. Let me
make an argument, an economicargument about immigration, or
let me make a socio politicalargument about immigration. Let
me make an argument aboutshifting groups of people and
what that does to society. Letme talk about change. Let me
make an argument about change,and how we've constantly been
(11:23):
changing and what changedoesn't. And when we get caught
into that, we're talking aboutbeing right. I can be right in
those arguments. And I don'tthink we're necessarily called
to be right as the church. Ithink we're called to do mish
pot to do justice. And so what Iwill say in those situations,
(11:46):
I'll say, Hey, that's a greatquestion. That's a good
political question. That's avery good economic question.
Excellent economic question.
That's a really goodsociological question, or
anthropological question. That'sa great American question. I'll
say, Great American question.
But I want to ask a Christianquestion. And then we as a
(12:06):
community, we constantly have tobe asking Christ centered
questions or mish pot orientedquestions Is God reigns, we
proclaim Christ the King. IfChrist reigns, then we do what?
And you ask though, when youbegin to ask those those
questions, you disciplineyourself, to not be right. But
(12:29):
to ask better questions. Youstart echoing some of the things
that Jesus did in thosesituations were also Jesus,
besides peppered with thesereally hard testing questions,
and he would respond with abetter question that kingdom of
God centered question. Andthat's also a really good
discipline. Whenever I hearmyself being right. I there's an
(12:51):
alarm that goes off. Yeah. Andsays, Are you proclaiming the
good news? Are you showing off?
Are you are you? Are youpreaching your own
righteousness? Or are youpreaching them The Miche part of
God? So I think that that thoseare sort of the disciplines
(13:14):
understanding that yes, we areresisting. But just as
importantly, and integrally, weare connecting to God. Yeah. And
yes, we are recognizing theinjustice of the empire of the
Babylon in which we live. But weare doing it by seeking God's
(13:34):
reign, God's mish pot, God'sjustice. And then whenever we
feel when the big alarm red flagis when we feel like we are
proving our righteousness, thenwe need to repent real quick,
real quick, and lean into aproclamation of God's reign.
Gabrielle Leonard (13:52):
John, that's really good. That's really good.
I think we can all point to thetimes I know I can. When you can
recognize, oh, it's actually myRome righteousness on proclaim,
I'm trying to proclaim right nowthis is less about God's mish
paw. So what you're saying,yeah. So I'm just I'm hearing
you and I'm going man, I canpoint to moments when I was
(14:15):
standing in my ownrighteousness, thinking, this
isn't the name of God, but it'sactually more so my own image
that I'm trying to put forward.
And so that's, that's reallygood, I think a good reflection
for us. And also practical interms of how do we ask better
questions when we're trying towhen we're in that back and
forth debate around rightness,or how can we step back and go
actually, alright, these may begood political questions,
(14:38):
American questions, socioeconomic questions, but what is
actually the kingdom of thequestion that comes off of our
lips when we're thinking aboutthe Kingdom of God and when it
comes to that, that analogy youwere giving of this resistance
and like striking that your heeland then moving forward with the
the five toe It made me think ofwow, I think that's also a
(15:01):
beautiful way of integrating thework of spiritual formation. And
this this deep work that we dolike in, in walking with Christ,
as well as this, this work thatcares about the community and
the whole i because sometimes Ithink we were talking about
this, sometimes you can seespaces where there's communities
that care deeply about justice,and that's very heavy there. But
(15:25):
then there can maybe be adisconnect in terms of the the
spiritual disciplines and viceversa. And we need both to
actually be in any of this forthe long haul. Or we're crushed,
or we or we model the world. SoI love that, John, thank you. So
after that, I have a question.
(15:48):
This is this for yourreflection, I'm wondering, I
think at a at a personal level,as well, as you know,
communally. We often practicethe building of walls, you know,
to maintain our sense of safety,right. But it's a false sense of
safety. And so I wonder like,what what would you say our
(16:09):
walls cost us?
Pastor John Garland (16:12):
That's, walls are such a, it's such a
fascinating image, you kind ofhave the rebuilding of the
temple image of the Nehemiahimage of the building the wall,
and it can be this communaldefinition of who we are. But
I'm so struck by, I mean,obviously, we think about the
(16:33):
southern wall, the walls thatare being built in our southern
border, the walls that, thatdelineate some neighborhoods in
our city. Sometimes the thewalls of churches that will
sometimes represent acceptanceor rejection, or then use
(16:53):
overwhelmed by the way Jesuswalked into the temple and the
way Jesus looked at the walls.
And the way the disciples lookedat the walls, Mark makes it the
clearest when he's like thedisciples were blown away.
They're like, this isincredible. And the disciples
that I think they're quoting oneof the later Psalms, when
they're like, this is marvelous.
It's so it's what I think one ofthe Psalms of Ascent, that
(17:17):
they're quoting him or like, theway these stones are put
together, is so beautiful. Andthen Jesus is like, none of this
lasts. I mean, Paul would belike, there's only three things
that remain, you know, faith,hope, and love, not walls. Love
is Love is the best, it's notthe walls. And yet, and yet, we
(17:37):
do have this image of Jesus asthe temple. And Jesus says, I
tear it down, and I will rebuildit. And it is this place of
protection. It's this place ofreally, really important
boundaries. And a lot of timesthe, the, the Psalms describe
God's presence as as likecovering wings, or putting you
(18:02):
up in a high place in a, in asafe, Rocky, preserve place
where you're protected. Andthere's something really, really
important about having wallsthat are made of the Messiah or
Christ Walls Around Usboundaries of the Spirit that
hold us in that protect us andguide us in Jeremiah has this
(18:27):
image of like, as you go on yourway, like Mark the guideposts
home, there's also sort ofthese, the the stone that you
would leave on the path toleave, lead your way home, I
think there's just somethingimportant for us to meditate on
is walls that we make, don'tlast but the walls of the
(18:50):
eternal temple of the Christ.
Those are, those are those arewhat we need to lean into. And
so I think it's it's ameditation of what are my
boundaries? And are myboundaries there to serve my own
ego, or righteousness orwhatever? Or are those cast by
(19:10):
the Christ? So I mean, this isan easy, easy thing to think
about, like a southern wallthat's dip I'm here I live down
on the border, I lived just astone's throw from the river for
a long time and a little hut.
When I was just just got tocollege. I lived in this little
(19:31):
hut and there is a, you know,tight no running water isn't as
one of these communities one ofthese rural communities and in
the river, there was markersfrom, you know, 5060 years ago
where the river used to be. Itwas constantly moving every time
it flooded. The border moved.
Yeah. Every time there's a wildrainstorm, the border changed it
was this fluid thing, and is afluid as an it's a river
(19:57):
sometimes it's a deep bow Orderand other times it's shallow. It
you know, just 50 years agobefore the dams were built and
whatnot there, it was alwaysmoving. And yet we feel like
this is this is the eternal,legal bound thing that needs to
be defended. I just think aboutthat, what a silly thing to
(20:18):
defend. And now you have allthese images now of the wall
that was just built five or sixyears ago, that's already been
undercut by the flooding and isnow becoming unstable. I think
that is a prophetic sign for allof us in the American church
have have the the chiefcornerstone, where's our chief
(20:38):
cornerstone? And and is that isthat on Christ? Is Christ the
cornerstone? Because all theother stones are being rejected?
And this one that was rejected,this is the one that we need to
let our lives be protected byand bound by Yeah, well,
Gabrielle Leonard (20:58):
that's really good, John, that's good. You
know, I think the even the bestresponse to what you just said
that I think you'd most desireto hear from anyone listening to
you articulate, that is less.
Yeah, you're right. That's theright way to think. And more so
to be challenged by some of thesome of the things that you're
reflecting us on to, to ask somequestions to wrestle with that,
(21:21):
to go into prayer about what youjust what you just shared with
us,
Pastor John Garland (21:26):
when I engage in, say, like a wall
that's built around immigration,practically, this is, this is
what that looks like. If I if Icome across, let's say, a person
who is on the wrong side of thewall, I will not define them by
the side of the wall that theyare on. Because I believe in the
(21:49):
in the chief cornerstone thatwas rejected. Yeah. And so it's
really, really vital that thatI, I will speak that honestly,
like, I see you first with theeyes of my heart, like you are a
child of God. Yeah. If you're onthe wrong side of the wall, or,
or not. And, and to recognizethe voice that with my actions
(22:11):
and with my words, but also whatif you're on the correct side of
the wall, and it's your job touphold the law. And to hold
people accountable to this, thisstructure. It's also really,
really important to bless thosefolks too, okay, because the
most important wall is built onthe stone that was rejected the
(22:32):
temple, the mobile temple, andwe're all going home together to
that home to that temple space.
So I will say I interact withBorder Patrol agents all the
time, they'll call me aboutthis, that or the other. And
every single time I talked tothem, I will say, thank you so
much for your hard, hard workand your hard service. I know
(22:53):
how hard it is on you and onyour family. I know how
dangerous it is. And I ask ablessing of God, on you and on
your heart. And it's genuinelike it's really important to
how we cannot let walls dividethe Christian Church or the
Christian witness those if thewalls are built by man, than
(23:17):
they have no right. In blockingthe blessings in the vision of
God that this mish pot of God,yeah, it's one of those. It's
one of those false dividers thatwe have to be really, really
careful of. Now, politically,walls serve really important
purposes. And they always have.
(23:41):
And we have to recognize thenwhich King which King is are we
going to serve? The, the, theand, and I just, I'm just so
struck by that image. And Marcusas Jesus walks in, to the
temple, he looks he sees and heleaves. So so quickly goes out.
(24:03):
Yeah, but it's it's a it's ait's a the wall image. I think
it's a meditation. Yeah. To leaninto.
Gabrielle Leonard (24:09):
Yeah, no, that's good. I, I want to thank
you for adding that. Adding thatpiece, and even just the
conversations you would havewith a border patrol officer,
and then someone who's on theother side of the wall and in a
position of rejection. Because Ithink that I think it's, it's
not often that we know how tohold both of those tensions. And
(24:32):
maybe that's probably even thewrong word. It's actually less
about trying to hold on to thosetensions. And actually, I hear
you just being present to whomare in front of right now. Just
being simply being presentthere. And one of the the harsh
realities that we're strugglingwith right now is because we
feel this need to choose whichside we're going to be on, then
(24:55):
we have no ability to even havecompassion upon the person who
represents the other side. Andso I think that challenges us,
which you've just expressed,
Pastor John Garland (25:07):
yeah, yeah.
And I would also just challengemyself as if if I am to say,
hey, that wall is meaningless,then I need to be able to
respond very clear. It's like,well, what walls are meaningful
and powerful? So if I'm going tosay that's unjust, then what is
the hope that I'm proclaiming aninjustice or mish pot? And so
then I have to look at my ownlife and ask what are the what
(25:30):
are the walls of Christ in myown life, the walls, the
protective walls around Sabbath,these these these wall, this
wall that you walk through andsay, and now I'm going to
practice powerlessness? What arethe walls around my, my
disciplines my that direct myheart in my prayer life, my
(25:52):
words, my speech, myreflections, what are the
boundaries that Christ is givingme that I have to uphold, and
that have to then look as like,Oh glorious are these stones and
the way that they're puttogether, and we as a Christian
community, I think we also needto be so dangerous to organize
ourselves around with, you know,a no border wall, you know,
(26:15):
image or placard, and not beable to talk about these are
actually the true boundariesthat we have been given around
our possessions and our time,and our spirits in our hearts
and our minds. I think thatthat's, that's an important,
that's an important disciplineof like, we need to resist that.
(26:37):
But then we have to connect to abeautiful life of being a
disciple, which is leaning intothe boundaries that Jesus gives
us.
Gabrielle Leonard (26:50):
That's really, that's really good.
Well, because you mentionedSabbath, and it also, in you
connected it to powerlessness,which is good, because I
actually did not have thespiritual discipline about
really, truly honoring theSabbath until what Christ was
beginning to give me thisrelative revelation of
recognizing, oh, as I when Ichoose to Sabbath, I'm actually
(27:12):
recognizing just how powerless Iam, I'm actually recognizing
that I can't do all and thatthat was proving to be a
helpful, a very helpfuldiscipline. So I, here's a
question for you the last one towrap up our time. I know you've
been in situations where youfelt powerless. And so I'm
(27:32):
wondering what keeps you comingback, spending time with going
to a immigration prison again,spending time with another and
advocating for another asylumseeking family? Even though this
problem is so complex, and bigand huge? What keeps you coming
(27:54):
back?
Pastor John Garland (27:55):
Well, I will say, I will confess, it's
not the verse that in myweakness, God is strong are in
my prayers. I recognize that Iconfess that I believe that
wholeheartedly. And yet, when Ifeel desperate and anxious and
powerless, for some reason, thatdoesn't help me very much to it,
because it's, it's so frontalcortex. It's so like, a lot this
(28:17):
logic puzzle of like, If ThisThen That, yeah, and I know that
I know that that's true. I knowthat we are made perfect in or
God's perfection is, you know,comes to light in our
imperfections and God's powerand our weaknesses. But there's,
there's an important disciplinethat we do as a faith community,
around this whole powerlessnessthing. And that is it's it's
(28:40):
rooted in the two stories of thefeeding of the multitudes in the
Gospel of Mark. So Mark tells ittwice. There's once they're in
Jewish territory, and they feed5000 people, and then then
they're in Gentile territory.
They feed 4000 people and rightafter feeding 4000 people,
they're in a boat. And they'rereally stressed out, because
(29:03):
ironically, they don't havebread. And then they feel and
Jesus is talking about the yeastof the Pharisees and they get
all worked up. This is Markchapter eight, they get all
worked up, like oh my gosh,we're so embarrassed. We forgot
the bread. And I have thoseexperiences all the time where
like, I am not enough. I havemessed up. I am now there are
(29:24):
going to be all theseconsequences to be making these
mistakes in front of in front ofthe rabbi, I've messed up, and I
don't have enough to provide formyself or to provide for others.
It's that it's that image oflike, not just powerlessness,
but shame and embarrassment. Andso there you are in the boat,
(29:46):
and and Jesus finds out thatthey're all worked up about
this, ironically worked aboutnot having enough food after
they've served 4005 1000 Inanother in another area. And
Jesus is indignant. He's kind offrustrated with them. Or maybe
it's comical. But he he willsay, quoting the Psalms like
(30:06):
you, you have eyes, but youdon't see your ears, but you
don't hear. And then he makeshim count the baskets. He says,
How many baskets of leftoversdid you pick up? When there were
5000 people, and they countedwas like either 12. And these,
like how many mega baskets whenthere was 4000? Or like, was
(30:29):
seven? And he's like, Don't youget it? This story was, there's
been a mystery for me for allthis stuff. But you then you,
then it suddenly struck me in areally poignant moment when I
was exhausted and feelingashamed and feeling powerless,
and then all of a sudden, therewas irrevocable, obvious,
overwhelming evidence that I hadbeen participating in a miracle.
(30:56):
And Jesus says, Don't you haveeyes to see it? Don't you have
ears to hear it? Yeah. And sowhat we do as a faith community
is every Friday morning, inplace of our normal prayer time,
prayer requests, everyone it'slike 15, or 617 20, folks, on
Friday morning, we will, we callit counting our baskets. And so
(31:19):
everyone will describe theleftovers, what it looked like
to clean up after one of God'smiracles that week. And so we
all have a running list from thelast years, it's hundreds of
pages of people describing theevidence that they've
(31:41):
participated in miracle thatweek. And some of them are like
wild and huge, like, this motherwas reunited with her child,
this father was liberated fromprison. You know, this, this
woman was released from thekidnappers, like massive
miracles, we couldn't have doneit. Others are like, I heard my
(32:01):
grandchild, say his first words,or I saw the blooms of the
flowers, or I got caught in therainstorm, or these little these
little baskets that representjust just shock your heart and
your soul into the realizationthat you've been participating
(32:23):
in the miracle. And so it's thispractice of, I am tired, and I'm
ashamed. And I'm scared, and I'membarrassed, and I don't have
what it takes. And yet, Iremember that I have just every
single week participated inMiracle upon miracle upon
miracle. And the faith communityalso is participate in miracles.
(32:46):
And that's, and we want to, wewant to just continue that walk.
And that's that's how I that'show we like discipline ourselves
into that truth that in ourweakness, God's strength is
manifest or in ourpowerlessness, that's when God
is, is powerful in ourimperfection. That's when we see
that perfection. Because wecan't take credit for any of the
(33:09):
baskets. Yeah, it's just we'rejust cleaning up the leftovers.
So that's one of that's one ofthe things I'd love to do on
Friday morning. Basket, counting
Gabrielle Leonard (33:20):
basket counting, I love it. I love it.
Well, John, this this wasincredible. I really enjoyed
getting the chance to sit acrossfrom you and have this
conversation. And this is theend of what we've what we've
planned on having a conversationaround. But maybe in the future,
you'll come back and and we'llhear about some of the baskets
(33:41):
that you've been been counting.
You are constantly witnessingmiracles. And I think it is an
encouragement to the body tohear them. So thank you so much,
John, for sharing.
Pastor John Garland (33:53):
Love it.
Yeah, thank you and blessings onon everyone listening to your
awesome podcast I do.
Gabrielle Leonard (33:59):
If you're hearing this message, you've
listened to the entire episode.
And for that I am deeplygrateful. I hope this episode
resonated with you and if it didhelp us out by sharing this
episode, and leaving a review onApple podcasts, and Spotify.
Most importantly, reach out tolet me know how you're engaging
with this episode, and whattopics you'd like to see covered
(34:19):
in the future. You can connectwith us on social media, or get
in touch with me directly atGabrielle at returning to
joy.com to share your heart.
I'll see you in two weeks for anew episode.
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm
your host, Gabrielle MichelLeonard. Here we're leading
people to cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing. Hey
(00:24):
Beloved's. In this episode,you're going to be hearing part
two of a conversation withPastor John garlin. If you were
with us in the previous episode,you know that he is the pastor
of the San Antonio MennoniteChurch. And he's the chaplain of
the interfaith welcome coalitionhere in San Antonio. This
conversation is going to talkabout necessary spiritual
(00:45):
disciplines and rhythms,justice, and how do we ask
Kingdom questions? So here it ispart two of conversation with
Pastor John garland. All right,John, we'll just saying I feel
extremely grateful to be sittingdown and having this
conversation with you. BecauseJohn, whether you know it or
not, you exude wisdom, that ishumble, and wisdom that has been
(01:13):
matured through pain, and hope,and wrestling and, and praise
and forged and community. It isnot isolated. And it's connected
to Christ. And I'm I'm deeplyencouraged by it. And so this
feels like a severe gym to beable to have these conversations
(01:34):
with you. And so thank you for,for being present today.
Pastor John Garland (01:38):
Well, it's a it's a pleasure to be here.
And thank you for wrapping allthis up in prayer in this space
and your podcast and this workand this calling in prayer. It's
really wonderful to step into.
Yeah, well,
Gabrielle Leonard (01:50):
I appreciate that. It's intentional. It's
intentional. Well, John, we hada really great conversation last
time. And that prompted somequestions that I think will be
helpful for people that arelistening, that are involved in
work where they would go, man, Iam trying to pursue justice, or
(02:14):
they longed to see it, I thinkit it begs the question for you
to tell us how you're practicingthe rhythm and discipline of
resistance and connection. Andthen to on top of that answer
for us, how do these disciplineskeep you from losing your
humanity, humanity? You know,like, betraying your soul
(02:36):
betraying actually the verything that God put it you put in
you?
Pastor John Garland (02:39):
Yeah, I it's so important to resist,
we're called the resist, recall,the resist evil, we're called to
resist the Empire. We're calledto resist temptations. We're
called to resist suffering, andthe suffering of others. And we
have to do that. And when we'relooking at the world, today,
we're looking at the headlines,we're listening to the news,
(03:00):
there's so much injustice thatwe have to resist. There is a
lot of it is political. A lot ofit is rooted in racism and
poverty, and horrific waves ofof human suffering that we can't
even comprehend. And it feelslike a very black and white
thing, you can do the rightthing, or you can perpetuate the
(03:22):
wrong thing. And that sense ofthat understanding of justice as
a judge in in dark robes, sayingguilty or not guilty, that black
and white, it occupies animportant part in our brain, in
our experience. And I think wehave to be open to that and
understand when we're pulledtoward being right and being on
(03:43):
the right side of history. Beingon the right side of an event,
spiritually, that's very, verydangerous. And because you can
get caught up in just resistingand being right, and then you're
seeking your own righteousness,as opposed to seeking true
justice and we meditate on theword every morning nearly it's
(04:06):
in so many of the psalms that wepray in the morning, this
ancient word mish pot, thatwhich is God's justice. It's
translated as Justice mish pot,but it's very much an
understanding of, of judgment,God's judgment and judge justice
mish pot it's everything isright because God is is raining
(04:29):
this understanding of mish potand so that pulls us spiritually
toward this connection. We wantto connect to that that's so
good. We're resisting Babylon.
We're resisting the Empire.
We're resisting hurt andsuffering and the perpetuation
of of evil. But we're alsoconnecting deeply to God's mish
(04:49):
pot God's justice. So it's notus seeking our own
righteousness. How will mygrandkids remember me? How will
I be remembered in the historybooks? Well, we won't be it's a
sin We endeavor but But God'smish pot God is that that's
forever it's eternal. It'slinked oftentimes to the this
alarm, the eternity of, of God.
And so as Christians, especiallywhen you're doing work in, in
(05:13):
unjust places, it's vital torecognize what we are resisting,
and what we are activelyconnecting to. And we connect,
we connect to God through thedisciplines that through prayer
disciplines, and disciplines ofsimplicity, and confession,
disciplines of Sabbath andresting in our powerlessness,
(05:35):
disciplines of humility, andsharing these really, really
important disciplines thatconnect us to God even while we
are resisting the things thatare pulling us in to mirror
Babylon to mirror thetemptations to mirror the
wickedness that is perpetuatedand so that that's an that's an
(05:59):
important thing to do. To feelthat rhythm. I like to think of
it as a foot Yeah, I come downwith my heel Yeah, it's that you
know, messianic image of theheel of the Messiah stepping on
the snake. Yeah. And and thenthere's the the moving forward
with the the five toesrepresenting these different
(06:19):
prayer disciplines that pull ustoward God's mish pot, God's
justice.
Gabrielle Leonard (06:27):
Man, John, I think it's actually a great
analogy. And you know, if youguys are listening, you'll have
to visualize what he's doing, orwhat you just did of that, of,
you know, pressing down on ourheel of a foot and how that's a
resistance. And then thismovement forward with the five
toes of connecting, I reallyliked that.
Pastor John Garland (06:44):
And other times you land with your toes,
especially when you'resprinting, you're going faster,
forward. And that's what happenswith the prayer disciplines. And
the end these these spiritualdisciplines, were pulled by
them, and then we're landing andwe have to reject, we have to
resist. And so when you're, whenyou're praying for your brothers
(07:04):
and sisters who are suffering,yeah, you then are yanked into
resistance of the perpetuationof this injustice, that that's
holding them down. The other wayto think about it also is, if
you're resisting something, whatare you then calling for it to
be replaced by? It's good. Andthat's it. That's, for example,
(07:24):
let's say, we often get callsfrom the immigration prisons,
these detention centers someonebegging to be liberated. Yeah,
they're going to be sponsoredout or uh, yesterday, I got a
call from an ice officer, hesaid, We pastor, would you take
this family, they have nowhereto go. They're languishing here
in the prison. There's no reasonfor them to be here. Would you
(07:45):
take them and give them a say, Iwant to resist the injustice of
a incarcerated family. I want toresist the injustice of some for
profit company making money offof the suffering of a father and
a mother and children want toresist that. But then what am I
bringing them into? Am Ibringing them into a silent room
(08:09):
with no community? And am Ibringing them into a place of
like, lousy fast food and andloneliness? Yeah. Or are we
bring them into a rich, vibrantspiritual community with rhythms
of prayer and service? Or havewe connected to God's mish pot
first, that we can resist theinjustice and say, come and
(08:31):
participate here come be a partof this Christ centered
community. And so I like I thinkit's, it's, it's easy to make
the sign and hold it up. It'seasy to stand on the soapbox and
declare the unrighteousness ofothers and the injustice of
others. Sometimes that can beactually pretty fun and
creative. But then we as aChristian community is the body
(08:54):
of Christ were called toactually participate in true
mish pot true justice. Which is,it's one of the things that you
know, Micah, six, eight says, Domish pot, do do this mish pot,
participate in God's justice,God's judgment. And that's the
(09:15):
other thing is in our world, wealways want to be right. We
always want to have arguments,we want to have positions, we
want to say where we are. And soI find that also I will be it
was given the immigrationquestions. I'm always asked the
same three questions. It'salways it's always is some
iteration of the same threequestions. And one of them is
(09:35):
like a legal question astructure question like, aren't
we a nation of borders?
Shouldn't we uphold what is anation that doesn't have
borders? If if the borders fallapart, everything falls apart?
If rules fall apart, everythingfalls apart? If these people are
willing to break the rules, andcome to our country, then how
could then they are going toundermine all sense of order.
There's those questions. Andthen there's another question
(09:57):
which is an economic questionsays Here's the question, why
should we take care of them? Whyshould we pay for all the
world's problems? What we don'thave enough resources? Why
should we have to share? Andthen the third question is a
fear of change question. It'slike, it's like, if they come,
what's going to happen to oureconomy? What's gonna happen to
(10:17):
our language system, oureducation system, our healthcare
system? What's going to happento our culture? What's going to
happen to our worship? What'sgoing to happen to all these
things that are, I'm afraid willchange. So there's these three
sort of fear based questions. Wealways have them whenever
there's an issue of injustice,whenever there's an issue of of
(10:39):
hurt or suffering, we're alwaysgoing to have the same three
questions really, almost always,there's fear based questions
like, I'm worried that order isgoing to fall apart. I'm worried
there's not enough resources.
I'm worried that I'm going tohave to change or we're going to
change. What am I going to lose?
Yeah. And it's really temptingto jump into those debates, and
(11:00):
love. Well, let's talk about theeconomics of immigration. Let me
make an argument, an economicargument about immigration, or
let me make a socio politicalargument about immigration. Let
me make an argument aboutshifting groups of people and
what that does to society. Letme talk about change. Let me
make an argument about change,and how we've constantly been
(11:23):
changing and what changedoesn't. And when we get caught
into that, we're talking aboutbeing right. I can be right in
those arguments. And I don'tthink we're necessarily called
to be right as the church. Ithink we're called to do mish
pot to do justice. And so what Iwill say in those situations,
(11:46):
I'll say, Hey, that's a greatquestion. That's a good
political question. That's avery good economic question.
Excellent economic question.
That's a really goodsociological question, or
anthropological question. That'sa great American question. I'll
say, Great American question.
But I want to ask a Christianquestion. And then we as a
(12:06):
community, we constantly have tobe asking Christ centered
questions or mish pot orientedquestions Is God reigns, we
proclaim Christ the King. IfChrist reigns, then we do what?
And you ask though, when youbegin to ask those those
questions, you disciplineyourself, to not be right. But
(12:29):
to ask better questions. Youstart echoing some of the things
that Jesus did in thosesituations were also Jesus,
besides peppered with thesereally hard testing questions,
and he would respond with abetter question that kingdom of
God centered question. Andthat's also a really good
discipline. Whenever I hearmyself being right. I there's an
(12:51):
alarm that goes off. Yeah. Andsays, Are you proclaiming the
good news? Are you showing off?
Are you are you? Are youpreaching your own
righteousness? Or are youpreaching them The Miche part of
God? So I think that that thoseare sort of the disciplines
(13:14):
understanding that yes, we areresisting. But just as
importantly, and integrally, weare connecting to God. Yeah. And
yes, we are recognizing theinjustice of the empire of the
Babylon in which we live. But weare doing it by seeking God's
(13:34):
reign, God's mish pot, God'sjustice. And then whenever we
feel when the big alarm red flagis when we feel like we are
proving our righteousness, thenwe need to repent real quick,
real quick, and lean into aproclamation of God's reign.
Gabrielle Leonard (13:52):
John, that's really good. That's really good.
I think we can all point to thetimes I know I can. When you can
recognize, oh, it's actually myRome righteousness on proclaim,
I'm trying to proclaim right nowthis is less about God's mish
paw. So what you're saying,yeah. So I'm just I'm hearing
you and I'm going man, I canpoint to moments when I was
(14:15):
standing in my ownrighteousness, thinking, this
isn't the name of God, but it'sactually more so my own image
that I'm trying to put forward.
And so that's, that's reallygood, I think a good reflection
for us. And also practical interms of how do we ask better
questions when we're trying towhen we're in that back and
forth debate around rightness,or how can we step back and go
actually, alright, these may begood political questions,
(14:38):
American questions, socioeconomic questions, but what is
actually the kingdom of thequestion that comes off of our
lips when we're thinking aboutthe Kingdom of God and when it
comes to that, that analogy youwere giving of this resistance
and like striking that your heeland then moving forward with the
the five toe It made me think ofwow, I think that's also a
(15:01):
beautiful way of integrating thework of spiritual formation. And
this this deep work that we dolike in, in walking with Christ,
as well as this, this work thatcares about the community and
the whole i because sometimes Ithink we were talking about
this, sometimes you can seespaces where there's communities
that care deeply about justice,and that's very heavy there. But
(15:25):
then there can maybe be adisconnect in terms of the the
spiritual disciplines and viceversa. And we need both to
actually be in any of this forthe long haul. Or we're crushed,
or we or we model the world. SoI love that, John, thank you. So
after that, I have a question.
(15:48):
This is this for yourreflection, I'm wondering, I
think at a at a personal level,as well, as you know,
communally. We often practicethe building of walls, you know,
to maintain our sense of safety,right. But it's a false sense of
safety. And so I wonder like,what what would you say our
(16:09):
walls cost us?
Pastor John Garland (16:12):
That's, walls are such a, it's such a
fascinating image, you kind ofhave the rebuilding of the
temple image of the Nehemiahimage of the building the wall,
and it can be this communaldefinition of who we are. But
I'm so struck by, I mean,obviously, we think about the
(16:33):
southern wall, the walls thatare being built in our southern
border, the walls that, thatdelineate some neighborhoods in
our city. Sometimes the thewalls of churches that will
sometimes represent acceptanceor rejection, or then use
(16:53):
overwhelmed by the way Jesuswalked into the temple and the
way Jesus looked at the walls.
And the way the disciples lookedat the walls, Mark makes it the
clearest when he's like thedisciples were blown away.
They're like, this isincredible. And the disciples
that I think they're quoting oneof the later Psalms, when
they're like, this is marvelous.
It's so it's what I think one ofthe Psalms of Ascent, that
(17:17):
they're quoting him or like, theway these stones are put
together, is so beautiful. Andthen Jesus is like, none of this
lasts. I mean, Paul would belike, there's only three things
that remain, you know, faith,hope, and love, not walls. Love
is Love is the best, it's notthe walls. And yet, and yet, we
(17:37):
do have this image of Jesus asthe temple. And Jesus says, I
tear it down, and I will rebuildit. And it is this place of
protection. It's this place ofreally, really important
boundaries. And a lot of timesthe, the, the Psalms describe
God's presence as as likecovering wings, or putting you
(18:02):
up in a high place in a, in asafe, Rocky, preserve place
where you're protected. Andthere's something really, really
important about having wallsthat are made of the Messiah or
Christ Walls Around Usboundaries of the Spirit that
hold us in that protect us andguide us in Jeremiah has this
(18:27):
image of like, as you go on yourway, like Mark the guideposts
home, there's also sort ofthese, the the stone that you
would leave on the path toleave, lead your way home, I
think there's just somethingimportant for us to meditate on
is walls that we make, don'tlast but the walls of the
(18:50):
eternal temple of the Christ.
Those are, those are those arewhat we need to lean into. And
so I think it's it's ameditation of what are my
boundaries? And are myboundaries there to serve my own
ego, or righteousness orwhatever? Or are those cast by
(19:10):
the Christ? So I mean, this isan easy, easy thing to think
about, like a southern wallthat's dip I'm here I live down
on the border, I lived just astone's throw from the river for
a long time and a little hut.
When I was just just got tocollege. I lived in this little
(19:31):
hut and there is a, you know,tight no running water isn't as
one of these communities one ofthese rural communities and in
the river, there was markersfrom, you know, 5060 years ago
where the river used to be. Itwas constantly moving every time
it flooded. The border moved.
Yeah. Every time there's a wildrainstorm, the border changed it
was this fluid thing, and is afluid as an it's a river
(19:57):
sometimes it's a deep bow Orderand other times it's shallow. It
you know, just 50 years agobefore the dams were built and
whatnot there, it was alwaysmoving. And yet we feel like
this is this is the eternal,legal bound thing that needs to
be defended. I just think aboutthat, what a silly thing to
(20:18):
defend. And now you have allthese images now of the wall
that was just built five or sixyears ago, that's already been
undercut by the flooding and isnow becoming unstable. I think
that is a prophetic sign for allof us in the American church
have have the the chiefcornerstone, where's our chief
(20:38):
cornerstone? And and is that isthat on Christ? Is Christ the
cornerstone? Because all theother stones are being rejected?
And this one that was rejected,this is the one that we need to
let our lives be protected byand bound by Yeah, well,
Gabrielle Leonard (20:58):
that's really good, John, that's good. You
know, I think the even the bestresponse to what you just said
that I think you'd most desireto hear from anyone listening to
you articulate, that is less.
Yeah, you're right. That's theright way to think. And more so
to be challenged by some of thesome of the things that you're
reflecting us on to, to ask somequestions to wrestle with that,
(21:21):
to go into prayer about what youjust what you just shared with
us,
Pastor John Garland (21:26):
when I engage in, say, like a wall
that's built around immigration,practically, this is, this is
what that looks like. If I if Icome across, let's say, a person
who is on the wrong side of thewall, I will not define them by
the side of the wall that theyare on. Because I believe in the
(21:49):
in the chief cornerstone thatwas rejected. Yeah. And so it's
really, really vital that thatI, I will speak that honestly,
like, I see you first with theeyes of my heart, like you are a
child of God. Yeah. If you're onthe wrong side of the wall, or,
or not. And, and to recognizethe voice that with my actions
(22:11):
and with my words, but also whatif you're on the correct side of
the wall, and it's your job touphold the law. And to hold
people accountable to this, thisstructure. It's also really,
really important to bless thosefolks too, okay, because the
most important wall is built onthe stone that was rejected the
(22:32):
temple, the mobile temple, andwe're all going home together to
that home to that temple space.
So I will say I interact withBorder Patrol agents all the
time, they'll call me aboutthis, that or the other. And
every single time I talked tothem, I will say, thank you so
much for your hard, hard workand your hard service. I know
(22:53):
how hard it is on you and onyour family. I know how
dangerous it is. And I ask ablessing of God, on you and on
your heart. And it's genuinelike it's really important to
how we cannot let walls dividethe Christian Church or the
Christian witness those if thewalls are built by man, than
(23:17):
they have no right. In blockingthe blessings in the vision of
God that this mish pot of God,yeah, it's one of those. It's
one of those false dividers thatwe have to be really, really
careful of. Now, politically,walls serve really important
purposes. And they always have.
(23:41):
And we have to recognize thenwhich King which King is are we
going to serve? The, the, theand, and I just, I'm just so
struck by that image. And Marcusas Jesus walks in, to the
temple, he looks he sees and heleaves. So so quickly goes out.
(24:03):
Yeah, but it's it's a it's ait's a the wall image. I think
it's a meditation. Yeah. To leaninto.
Gabrielle Leonard (24:09):
Yeah, no, that's good. I, I want to thank
you for adding that. Adding thatpiece, and even just the
conversations you would havewith a border patrol officer,
and then someone who's on theother side of the wall and in a
position of rejection. Because Ithink that I think it's, it's
not often that we know how tohold both of those tensions. And
(24:32):
maybe that's probably even thewrong word. It's actually less
about trying to hold on to thosetensions. And actually, I hear
you just being present to whomare in front of right now. Just
being simply being presentthere. And one of the the harsh
realities that we're strugglingwith right now is because we
feel this need to choose whichside we're going to be on, then
(24:55):
we have no ability to even havecompassion upon the person who
represents the other side. Andso I think that challenges us,
which you've just expressed,
Pastor John Garland (25:07):
yeah, yeah.
And I would also just challengemyself as if if I am to say,
hey, that wall is meaningless,then I need to be able to
respond very clear. It's like,well, what walls are meaningful
and powerful? So if I'm going tosay that's unjust, then what is
the hope that I'm proclaiming aninjustice or mish pot? And so
then I have to look at my ownlife and ask what are the what
(25:30):
are the walls of Christ in myown life, the walls, the
protective walls around Sabbath,these these these wall, this
wall that you walk through andsay, and now I'm going to
practice powerlessness? What arethe walls around my, my
disciplines my that direct myheart in my prayer life, my
(25:52):
words, my speech, myreflections, what are the
boundaries that Christ is givingme that I have to uphold, and
that have to then look as like,Oh glorious are these stones and
the way that they're puttogether, and we as a Christian
community, I think we also needto be so dangerous to organize
ourselves around with, you know,a no border wall, you know,
(26:15):
image or placard, and not beable to talk about these are
actually the true boundariesthat we have been given around
our possessions and our time,and our spirits in our hearts
and our minds. I think thatthat's, that's an important,
that's an important disciplineof like, we need to resist that.
(26:37):
But then we have to connect to abeautiful life of being a
disciple, which is leaning intothe boundaries that Jesus gives
us.
Gabrielle Leonard (26:50):
That's really, that's really good.
Well, because you mentionedSabbath, and it also, in you
connected it to powerlessness,which is good, because I
actually did not have thespiritual discipline about
really, truly honoring theSabbath until what Christ was
beginning to give me thisrelative revelation of
recognizing, oh, as I when Ichoose to Sabbath, I'm actually
(27:12):
recognizing just how powerless Iam, I'm actually recognizing
that I can't do all and thatthat was proving to be a
helpful, a very helpfuldiscipline. So I, here's a
question for you the last one towrap up our time. I know you've
been in situations where youfelt powerless. And so I'm
(27:32):
wondering what keeps you comingback, spending time with going
to a immigration prison again,spending time with another and
advocating for another asylumseeking family? Even though this
problem is so complex, and bigand huge? What keeps you coming
(27:54):
back?
Pastor John Garland (27:55):
Well, I will say, I will confess, it's
not the verse that in myweakness, God is strong are in
my prayers. I recognize that Iconfess that I believe that
wholeheartedly. And yet, when Ifeel desperate and anxious and
powerless, for some reason, thatdoesn't help me very much to it,
because it's, it's so frontalcortex. It's so like, a lot this
(28:17):
logic puzzle of like, If ThisThen That, yeah, and I know that
I know that that's true. I knowthat we are made perfect in or
God's perfection is, you know,comes to light in our
imperfections and God's powerand our weaknesses. But there's,
there's an important disciplinethat we do as a faith community,
around this whole powerlessnessthing. And that is it's it's
(28:40):
rooted in the two stories of thefeeding of the multitudes in the
Gospel of Mark. So Mark tells ittwice. There's once they're in
Jewish territory, and they feed5000 people, and then then
they're in Gentile territory.
They feed 4000 people and rightafter feeding 4000 people,
they're in a boat. And they'rereally stressed out, because
(29:03):
ironically, they don't havebread. And then they feel and
Jesus is talking about the yeastof the Pharisees and they get
all worked up. This is Markchapter eight, they get all
worked up, like oh my gosh,we're so embarrassed. We forgot
the bread. And I have thoseexperiences all the time where
like, I am not enough. I havemessed up. I am now there are
(29:24):
going to be all theseconsequences to be making these
mistakes in front of in front ofthe rabbi, I've messed up, and I
don't have enough to provide formyself or to provide for others.
It's that it's that image oflike, not just powerlessness,
but shame and embarrassment. Andso there you are in the boat,
(29:46):
and and Jesus finds out thatthey're all worked up about
this, ironically worked aboutnot having enough food after
they've served 4005 1000 Inanother in another area. And
Jesus is indignant. He's kind offrustrated with them. Or maybe
it's comical. But he he willsay, quoting the Psalms like
(30:06):
you, you have eyes, but youdon't see your ears, but you
don't hear. And then he makeshim count the baskets. He says,
How many baskets of leftoversdid you pick up? When there were
5000 people, and they countedwas like either 12. And these,
like how many mega baskets whenthere was 4000? Or like, was
(30:29):
seven? And he's like, Don't youget it? This story was, there's
been a mystery for me for allthis stuff. But you then you,
then it suddenly struck me in areally poignant moment when I
was exhausted and feelingashamed and feeling powerless,
and then all of a sudden, therewas irrevocable, obvious,
overwhelming evidence that I hadbeen participating in a miracle.
(30:56):
And Jesus says, Don't you haveeyes to see it? Don't you have
ears to hear it? Yeah. And sowhat we do as a faith community
is every Friday morning, inplace of our normal prayer time,
prayer requests, everyone it'slike 15, or 617 20, folks, on
Friday morning, we will, we callit counting our baskets. And so
(31:19):
everyone will describe theleftovers, what it looked like
to clean up after one of God'smiracles that week. And so we
all have a running list from thelast years, it's hundreds of
pages of people describing theevidence that they've
(31:41):
participated in miracle thatweek. And some of them are like
wild and huge, like, this motherwas reunited with her child,
this father was liberated fromprison. You know, this, this
woman was released from thekidnappers, like massive
miracles, we couldn't have doneit. Others are like, I heard my
(32:01):
grandchild, say his first words,or I saw the blooms of the
flowers, or I got caught in therainstorm, or these little these
little baskets that representjust just shock your heart and
your soul into the realizationthat you've been participating
(32:23):
in the miracle. And so it's thispractice of, I am tired, and I'm
ashamed. And I'm scared, and I'membarrassed, and I don't have
what it takes. And yet, Iremember that I have just every
single week participated inMiracle upon miracle upon
miracle. And the faith communityalso is participate in miracles.
(32:46):
And that's, and we want to, wewant to just continue that walk.
And that's that's how I that'show we like discipline ourselves
into that truth that in ourweakness, God's strength is
manifest or in ourpowerlessness, that's when God
is, is powerful in ourimperfection. That's when we see
that perfection. Because wecan't take credit for any of the
(33:09):
baskets. Yeah, it's just we'rejust cleaning up the leftovers.
So that's one of that's one ofthe things I'd love to do on
Friday morning. Basket, counting
Gabrielle Leonard (33:20):
basket counting, I love it. I love it.
Well, John, this this wasincredible. I really enjoyed
getting the chance to sit acrossfrom you and have this
conversation. And this is theend of what we've what we've
planned on having a conversationaround. But maybe in the future,
you'll come back and and we'llhear about some of the baskets
(33:41):
that you've been been counting.
You are constantly witnessingmiracles. And I think it is an
encouragement to the body tohear them. So thank you so much,
John, for sharing.
Pastor John Garland (33:53):
Love it.
Yeah, thank you and blessings onon everyone listening to your
awesome podcast I do.
Gabrielle Leonard (33:59):
If you're hearing this message, you've
listened to the entire episode.
And for that I am deeplygrateful. I hope this episode
resonated with you and if it didhelp us out by sharing this
episode, and leaving a review onApple podcasts, and Spotify.
Most importantly, reach out tolet me know how you're engaging
with this episode, and whattopics you'd like to see covered
(34:19):
in the future. You can connectwith us on social media, or get
in touch with me directly atGabrielle at returning to
joy.com to share your heart.
I'll see you in two weeks for anew episode.
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