In our world today, "church" has become synonymous with a building, an institution, or a religious gathering. However, as we delve into the origins of the word "Ekklesia", that has often been translated to the word "church", we uncover a much more profound and transformative concept.
Taylor Rogers is the executive director of Wildfire Network, a community that exists to spark and sustain the calling of God in the lives of believers by providing free services to help the new dreams that JESUS was planting to take flight.
In this episode, Taylor will share some of what he has learned about being the kind of church modeled by Jesus and being able to see miracles of all kinds when we do so.
Tune in for our next episode to hear Part 2 of this conversation with Taylor around reimagining the church as we know it.
New episodes on Wednesdays! Bi-weekly!
Tune in for our next episode to hear Part 2 of this conversation with Taylor around reimagining the church as we know it.
New episodes on Wednesdays! Bi-weekly!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabrielle Leonard (00:00):
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm
your host, Gabrielle MichelLeonard. Here we're leading
people to cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing.
(00:23):
Welcome back Beloved's. Thisweek, we're venturing into a
thought provoking conversation,titled reimagining church with
our guest, Taylor Rogers. Inthis two part series, Taylor
brings a wealth of wisdom to theconversation, helping us
navigate the various metaphorsused in Scripture, to illustrate
(00:43):
our relationship to Jesus andour role in the world. We'll
discuss the historical andbiblical context of the
ecclesia. And how that contextimpacts how we're to function in
society today. Taylor is theexecutive director of wildfire
network, and nonprofitorganization that exists to help
the dreams of Jesus come true inand through his people. Okay, so
(01:07):
there are a number of ways thatyou could talk about wildfire
network, but my favorite way todescribe it is, as this
collective body of people thathave been called together by
God, and are being sent out inso many diverse and beautiful
ways, it has the essence of thekingdom, and humbly, but yet
(01:27):
bravely carries the heartbeat ofGod. Wildfire is also marked by
this radical giving ofpermission, which Taylor leads
out in so well. Taylor, is thereanything else you'd like to say
about yourself? Right, um, I'mTaylor. And it's not even my
(01:48):
real name. My, my real name isChris,
which I remember that light,that tripped me out one time
when I found that out. So I waslike, dang,
Taylor Rogers (01:56):
my real name, but it's my middle name. And of
combat Taylor, since I was born,I really do seek to be a
faithful follower of Jesus,faithful to my wife, Ashley,
faithful as a father andfaithful as a, as a friend. And
as a brother, and in all theother identity things that that
(02:21):
Jesus has called me to, and allthose that he will call me to,
and far from achieving thecrown, as a certain apostle put
it in any of those categories.
But I'm grateful, because I havehave gotten to benefit and see
far more than my fair share oflove and joy and peace and
kindness and all the things. Ilove that. So including, yeah,
(02:46):
including theopportunity to work with and
support, encourage and be afriend and a brother to you. So
this being on the returning tojoy podcast is an honor for me
as well. I'm excited to be here.
Thank you. Thank you, I reallyappreciate it.
Gabrielle Leonard (03:06):
Taylor, you have seen, you've seen a lot of
miracles. And I think even whenI say you've seen a lot of
miracles.
I mean that in a numerous amountof ways that maybe some people
made it, it may not be the firstthing that comes to mind for
folks when we think about whatmiracles can look like, but
(03:27):
you've seen you've seen a lot ofthem. And I think one of those
miracles that I'mbearing witness to is the way
you've seen the people of Godcome together. And so I'd love
my first question to you is,would you describe a moment when
you truly felt like you werewitnessing the church? Like what
(03:48):
what was your what was present?
There was a distinctivefeatures.
Taylor Rogers (03:59):
Yeah, even as you asked that question, my my mind
is kind of flooded. It's like mylife flashing before my eyes.
There's this this high speed,real and montage of just
miracles. Right? I feel likewhere the, where you see the
church, you see the power of Godat work. And a word that we have
(04:22):
to describe the power of God atwork is the word miracle. So I
liked that you chose that wordfor that because it is something
that that we bear witness to.
Right. And I think maybe acouple months ago, we met for we
have a Wednesday night groupcalled Kindle that meets and we
(04:42):
met at a park at San Pedrosprings Park in San Antonio,
which is a pretty good size citypark and it's not too far from
downtown. On. And, you know,it's definitely frequented by
people. I mean, there's peoplewho sleep in that park,
(05:04):
overnight most nights. There's alot of just various, you know,
criminal activities that occuroccasionally there. But it's
also a place for families wherethe regularly plate, people
drive from across town becauseit's beautiful. I mean, there's
ancient trees, there's beautifulsprings, I mean, it's. So it's a
really cool Park. And we decidedto meet there. Because the
(05:28):
emphasis for our gathering wasspecifically the emphasis of
mission of what has what has Godsent us to do we try to
cultivate and foster worshipcommunity and mission with our
candle gatherings. And thepurpose of this one was mission.
So the big question for us islike, where, where should we
(05:50):
meet. And San Pedro springs Parkwas suggested, that's where we
met. During that time, there wasmaybe 12 to 20 of us. And if an
onlooker was passing by, theymight have felt like, well,
there's random assortment ofpeople doing milling about,
because we have like, you know,differently abled people,
(06:13):
differently aged variety ofdifferent ethnicities
represented people from varioussocio economic experiences. I
mean, it was, it was a fairlydiverse group of 1212 to 20 by
about 20 people. And we prayed,and we sang. And we basically
(06:34):
just said, we're here for God'spurposes, what has gotten we're
doing this park right now. Andsome of the some people felt
like I want to go walk aroundand pray for the people here. I
want to go and as the nightunfolded, I'll just tell you
some of the kinds of things thatI got to see, or someone ran up
to me reporting on. Yeah, yeah.
(06:59):
And this is where it getsserious, because one of the
three times when Jesus used theword ecclesia, was when Peter
made that confession. When hesaid, Thou art the Christ, the
Son of the living God. And Jesussaid, you know, Blessed are you,
(07:20):
Simon, for flesh, and blood hasnot revealed this to you, My
Father in heaven. And then hesaid, I say, also your Peter,
and upon this rock, I will buildmy church, and the gates of hell
shall not prevail against it.
Gates don't move y'all thatEcclesia of God that Jesus will
strengthen and build from theground up, right? That thing
(07:43):
charges the gates of hell. Andthat can't stand against it.
They're gonna break through,right, they're gonna announce
the kingdom. And we got to seean attempted rape for it in a
public bathroom. We got to seethose people who were making
that attempt in their addictionfueled confusion, and, you know,
(08:05):
acting out of their own pain,got to see them held and the
police arrived, eventually getto see a got to see a man who's
formerly incarcerated, who solddrugs and was very much against
police for a good portion of hislife. Got to see him involved in
(08:30):
bringing encouragement and peaceto those officers that were on
that scene, to such a degreethat this officer of a different
race than him asked him forprayer. And here's this guy, who
would probably have more reasonthan most to harbor animosity
towards anyone wearing auniform, especially in the city,
(08:51):
and in here, he is just blessinghim and praying for him. Right.
And it's such a degree that hispartner got out and came over to
see what was going on, because Ithink he was concerned. And he
asked for prayer as well. So itgot to be a cool moment there. I
got to see as we were prayerwalking, my wife and I, my wife
(09:12):
told me this one, one of our oneof the younger men in the group
ze and another guy, they saw acouple where it looked like
there was some very quicklyescalating domestic altercation
that was going on, but it wasacross the park. And he had some
pretty nice shoes. So he quicklytook his shoes off, given a wife
and said, Hold my shoes and tookoff sprinting over towards where
(09:35):
the violence was, was occurring.
And rather than just getinvolved in a fight, they began
talking print and they were ableto sit together for half an hour
ended up praying and that thepeople walked off in peace of
their own accord in differentdirections got to see situation
(09:56):
averted there and then evenamong our group, there was you
know, a young Woman in tearswho's recovering from some
addiction and got to receivesome encouragement from some
people who've walked downsimilar road to her, and testify
to the hope that they've had inChrist Jesus is just a cool
night that any onlooker wouldhave looked at, and probably
(10:17):
wouldn't have assigned the wordchurch to it. But I think when
the apostles were talking aboutecclesia, when Jesus had in
mind, this thing, I think hewould fully affirmed, that's
what was going on in there inthe park that night,
Gabrielle Leonard (10:34):
Taylor you, you also have the opportunity to
go to India, central India, andspend time with a brother of
yours, Pastor s, and witnesswhat was happening among the
people of God there. Howdescribe that to me, like, what,
what were you witnessing there,
Taylor Rogers (10:54):
I was talking to pastor s this morning, and was
reminded of just that time andof their way. And I remember
what he described, and what Iwitnessed when I was with them,
was that a group of them, youknow, brothers and sisters,
usually six to a dozen strong,will go into a new village or a
(11:15):
new town or a new area of town.
And when they walk up, whatinevitably be inevitably happens
is people just kind of stop whatthey're doing, realize why
they're new people around andthey'll they'll gather to, and
they'll say, what's going on,you know, and the little crowd
will gather. And Sunil or, youknow, one of the one of the
brothers that's there will say,is there anyone here that needs
(11:38):
help? Is there anyone sick? Isthere anything going on, that
you're hurting and need help?
And inevitably, someone willbring an auntie out, you know,
who's, who's suffering from someillness, or I remember one time
this guy got brought out thatwas blind. There's sometimes
(12:01):
somebody you know, my husbandgot a leg injury, and we haven't
been able to work. And we're, weneed food, you know. And what
the believers will do in thatinstance, after arriving, and
just asking the community, howthey're hurting, and response
will say, we want to help you,and we want to pray. And so they
will pray in Jesus name forhealing. And sometimes people
(12:27):
aren't heal seems to fall flat,you know, but, but sometimes
there's healing. Sometimesthere's miraculous healing that
just happens, like a man who'sable to see or a person who is
able to get up in the way thatis described in the New
Testament. And what they'll sayis, what the heck just happened.
(12:47):
And they'll just plainly tellthem that just we've seen Jesus
that work, and this is, this isthe salvation of God, that's
coming to you. Yeah, yeah, thename of Jesus and, or they'll,
you know, bring rice with them,or bring water filters or bring
things that they mightanticipate are in need of the
community and be able to offerthose as well and say, these
(13:10):
have been provided by people whoare compassionate it has been
provided, because of the love ofJesus, for you to meet this
need. And the people will say,well, we want to know more,
we've been, you know, we've beenspending our money on these
idols, and on this temples, ourwhole life and not seen anything
like this. And so they'll beginto meet and teach them about
(13:34):
what it's looked like for themto follow Jesus, and they'll
start meeting regularly. Andwhen they meet, they just
express gratitude for what God'sdoing among them. Like, if that
happened to you, you would justwant to meet and just be like,
Okay, I'm really thankful. Thisis amazing. Praise God. And then
that community will raisesomebody up to continue that
(13:54):
process.
Gabrielle Leonard (13:55):
Man, what I love about what you're sharing
is I, you see so much activityof what happens when God's
people are gathered, under thepresence of God. And I hear even
in that story with with Pastors, this almost expectation of,
hey, we're, we're coming here tothis, this, this village, and
(14:19):
we're expecting to bear witnessto the kingdom of God, we're
expecting to see the kingdomlike present, you know, in our
midst, and I love that. I lovethat so much. But this is where
the conversations gets good tome at least. Taylor, you have an
issue with the language ofchurch being the main way we
describe the people of God. Canyou share with us like why? Why
(14:46):
is that in light of what thestories you've witnessed? A lot
of these things you'veparticipated in, why? Why is
that? Why do you take issue withthat? Yeah.
Taylor Rogers (14:57):
So let me be clear that I earnestly seek to
be faithful to the scriptures ofthe New Testament in the Hebrew
Bible. And in no way what I saythat I am against. The people of
God are talking about the peopleof God using language that comes
(15:20):
from the scriptures. Right? Sothe word church is found nowhere
in the New Testament or theHebrew Bible. Many of our
translations, especially inEnglish, and even some of the
other, especially Europeancolonial languages, have a
(15:47):
version of church that they'revery much related to one
another. In terms of concept,law, long story short, I think
that the word church is evildeception, that carries with it
an inherent misleading, of therole and function of the people
(16:12):
of God. And I think that it'stime that we live in a way
that's more faithful to whatJesus was speaking about, and
what the New Testament testifiesto, and speak more accurately
with regard to it so thatourselves and certainly the next
(16:36):
generation may be betterequipped to rid themselves of
some of the chains that comealong with that terminology.
Gabrielle Leonard (16:48):
Yeah, no, that's about that. That's for
some people out there that arelistening. They may go, man,
thank you for saying that. Butfor others who may go, I don't
understand. So can you describelike, Why? Why do you say the
word church is a myth ismisleading terminology.
Taylor Rogers (17:05):
That's great. So the scriptures use a variety of
very important and powerfulmetaphors, to help us understand
how it is that we relate to Godhow it is we relate to one
another? How it is we'resupposed to be in
Gabrielle Leonard (17:24):
the world.
Okay.
Taylor Rogers (17:26):
So some of those metaphors are a little less
familiar, like some theirs werereferred to as the temple and
your living stones were talkedabout as a priesthood, right?
Were talked about as a body,like a human body with many
parts and like a hand and afoot, right, a body in that
(17:47):
sense. That's one of the morerecognizable one of the more
like, endearing and usefulmetaphors that we've been really
right to hold on to. That's ametaphor that talks about the
inherent diversity andspecialization of giftings
(18:08):
within the body of Christ,
Gabrielle Leonard (18:09):
almost like a way of like, how it's a
metaphor, they describe how werelate to one another.
Taylor Rogers (18:13):
That's absolutely the case. Yeah, the body, the
human body is used in Scriptureas a effective metaphor, to help
us understand how do we relateto one another? And even
specifically, how do we relateto God? Right, because a body
with that's decapitated is adead body. Right? So to think
of, to have a head, yes. And andthe head calls the shots, right?
(18:35):
And so there's a real sense ofJesus's Lordship and authority
that is present in that body.
No, that was good. I am. I'mquite convinced that Ecclesia
which is the word that is oftentranslated as church, some
notable exceptions to when it'snot translated as church, but
the word that's often translatedas churches Ecclesia in New
(18:57):
Testament, and that word is ametaphor to help us understand
two things. One, how do werelate to Jesus as Lord? Because
in that clay, sia would have ahead, a person who was in charge
of the ecclesia, and that personwould have the authority to
preside over it, to call it toorder to direct the agenda, if
(19:20):
you will, okay. And it wasoftentimes in the name of that
key authority that the ecclesiawould then operate and implement
the desires of that leader.
Okay, so Ecclesia functioned asa common experience. It was a
(19:41):
common word. It was usedregularly to talk about the
assembly of people thatgoverned, it would be talked
about an assembly that was goingto deal with an enemy threat. It
would talk about a gathering ofpeople that was called together
to deal with a specific problemin the community or society.
(20:05):
Something's got to be done here.
Well, let's call together theecclesia. And we'll make
something
Gabrielle Leonard (20:10):
very purposeful. It was a very
purposeful gathering. Yes,people.
Taylor Rogers (20:14):
So the metaphor of Ecclesia helps us clearly
understand our function as itrelates to the world. Okay, so
the presence of Christ among usas the leader, and function of
how we are to be in the world,that Ecclesia is the most
(20:34):
helpful metaphor, we have anunderstanding that, but it is
not the only metaphor we havefor understanding that. And so
just from a language basis ofhow do you approach the New
Testament, I think that it'simportant to get that part
right. Before you can move alittle further down to well, why
was it some Why was the wordchurch chosen to represent
(21:00):
Ecclesia? Because that's adifferent metaphor. So we're
church, absolutely, from effortsa different concept entirely
than what Ecclesia is intended.
Just
Gabrielle Leonard (21:13):
before we move away from that metaphor of
the ecclesia. Something that yousaid earlier that I thought was
really powerful is you werereferring to the ecclesia. The
main purpose of that metaphor isto demonstrate how lordship is
implemented through an empoweredgroup of people. And so in this
case, we're talking about theLordship of Jesus. That's right.
(21:35):
And I also like thought, like,then you then you reference,
like, we were talking earlier,you're talking about this, like,
it's like this assembly that hasthe power and authority to
change to make change? Yes,because of who's called it? Yes.
Who's in charge? Yes. And thepower that they have, that
they're actually giving to thepeople that they've called to
(21:57):
assemble? That's right. Okay.
And then you were saying, like,the ecclesia, the body and the
kingdom of God metaphor, one ofthe things that all of those
have in common between eachother, is this, like, implied
presence. That's right. Can youdescribe to me a little bit more
about what you mean by thatimplied presence between those
three metaphors that are oftenused in Scripture,
Taylor Rogers (22:20):
but Kingdom has a king? That's the defining
element of what makes a kingdomas opposed to some other sort of
leadership structure? Yeah. Sothe implied presence of Goddess
King, and even Jesus as Messiahas this anointed king, is
required. In order for thevisions that Jesus speaks of the
(22:42):
parables, the way he talks aboutthe Kingdom of God requires his
presence, right? Andacknowledgement of that, that of
his lordship, a body, as wementioned earlier, a body
without a head is dead. Right?
So the body has to remainattached to its head in order to
live. And so there's a sense oflike, implied connection. Right?
(23:04):
Another thing is Jesus, that I'mthe vine, you're the branches,
right? The the heart of thatmetaphor is the the necessity of
constant connection.
Gabrielle Leonard (23:17):
Yeah. To him.
Taylor Rogers (23:19):
Right. Lose that you burn it down gonna bear
fruit? Yeah, right. An Ecclesia.
Without the presence of thatleader that has the authority to
call it is powerless, isconfused? Is that effective?
Right? Is kind of looks morelike a mob than an Ecclesia.
Gabrielle Leonard (23:46):
No, that's good. That's good, right.
Taylor Rogers (23:48):
And so so there's a sense of in order for an
Ecclesia to really functionwell, for what it's intended to
do, which it's a purposefullygathered, assembly or calling to
deal with the problems outsideof itself. It has to have that
clear leadership present, andthat leadership is Jesus.
Gabrielle Leonard (24:09):
So Taylor, you mentioned earlier that the
word church is an entirelydifferent metaphor. And it's
different than the metaphorEcclesia and what it was used
for to describe the people ofGod that have gathered together.
Do you can you show us a placein scripture where like that
scene?
Taylor Rogers (24:28):
Yeah, that's, that's a fun question. One of my
favorite places to study for forthis as Acts chapter 19. And in
Acts chapter 19, the wordEcclesia is used three times, I
believe, and the three timesthat Ekklesia is used in most
(24:57):
translations, and certainly inthe King James translation. It
is not translated as church.
There's different words that areused to translate the word
Ecclesia. Why is this? It isbecause Demetrius, the
silversmith, who was a personwho had benefited greatly from
the idle, industry of emphasis,recognized rightly so the threat
(25:20):
that Paul and the teaching ofJesus as Lord posed to their
industry, when he calledtogether those people that you
know, were on his payroll, orwho he had authority to call
together, and said, Guys, we gotto deal with this, our
livelihoods are at stake. If wedon't deal with this problem,
(25:40):
people are gonna stop buyingidols. Right. So he called
together the ecclesia his of hisown making of his own calling,
called together to deal with it.
And so they start rounding upPaul's buddies to take him to
the theater. Now, what it saysis interesting is that it goes,
but they weren't able toactually lay a hand on them.
(26:03):
Because some people said, well,we should do it this way. And
some people said, We should doit that way. So because they
were in disagreement anddisunity, it says the ecclesia
was ineffective. And able to donothing
Gabrielle Leonard (26:16):
more I guess in that translation, the in the
King James would say like theassembly, yeah, it probably
Taylor Rogers (26:22):
says assembly here. But most every other
place. You choose the wordchurch, and I'll get to one in
just a moment. But But then,what's interesting is that a
person of greater authority inthe city, and King James calls
at the town clerk, but it was areal position of authority and
emphasis came and said, Hey, wedon't want to get we don't want
(26:42):
to get in trouble here. Ifyou've got a real issue with
these guys. Why don't you bringon up to the big Ecclesia? Why
don't you deal with it? And thenI think King James translates it
as a legal assembly, but it'sactually just the same word.
It's just a different personwith a different authority.
Calling it okay. And presiding.
Yeah, that's how so he's saying,hey, why don't you come you
know, do this. And anyway,what's interesting is that in
(27:05):
this chapter, were three timesthat clay C is used King James
translators at assembly, legalassembly and then think crowd
and one is in verse 37, theEnglish word church is used.
Okay? In the King James andverse 37, it says, For ye have
brought hither these men, whichare neither robbers of churches,
(27:26):
nor yet blasphemers of yourgoddess. It used the word
churches, they're in refer to aGreek word that talked about the
temples, the pagan temples,right? But it used the English
word church, because that wasthe right English word to use
for that. Because that's exactlywhat they were talking about
(27:49):
when they say these guys aren'tthese guys aren't stealing gold
from the temple, they're notrobbing the church, meaning
they're not taking items fromthat temple. This to this
building, physical building.
Okay, that's right. And thethings that belong to the God
that are there, okay. Okay, so.
So it actually uses the Englishword church at a place where
(28:10):
Ecclesia is not present. Andthere's multiple times where
accuracy is used, and they chosesomething different. So here's
why. There's a totally separateword that was used in in Greek
to talk about the temple and thethings belonging to the God. And
it was Chiriac KTRK. Okay, andthat word ended up being kick
(28:35):
kick in like the German and thenchurch. And then you can see how
it eventually morphs intoEnglish word church. So the word
church actually has anetymology, that points to the
buildings, okay. And that pointsto the the kind of like rites
and priestly activities andarticles that happened in those
(28:57):
mostly pagan temples.
Gabrielle Leonard (29:01):
Okay, almost like like ceremony and a little
yellow stone. So
Taylor Rogers (29:05):
when they said church, and they were talking
about a building, and the thepeople who worked at the
building that were formal clergyand the types of things that go
on there, they knew exactly whatthey were referring to. But it
was an entirely different word,entirely different metaphor than
Ecclesia. I know that there's alot of people now it's just
(29:28):
semantics. Yeah, that is, that'sone way to look at it. Yeah,
absolutely. It's just semantics.
William Tyndale, in 1526authored the first English
language translation of the NewTestament, and very quickly, it
was made illegal called intoquestion he became a man who was
(29:51):
hunted by the state. And therewas several examples of things
Is that he translated that theyfelt like were incredibly
egregious, because it threatenedhow they wanted religion to be
experienced by the masses. Okay?
(30:12):
One of them was he dared totranslate the word agape as
love, instead of charity,charity more benefits easily
lent itself to an understandingof alms giving that sort of
charity. He dared to translatemetta noia, as repent. Instead
(30:34):
of do penance, which do penance,lend itself to whatever
prescription the priest wouldprescribe for you to pay for
your sentence. And worst of all,and worthy of him being burned
at the stake. 10 years after thepublication of this translation
as a heretic was a he dared totranslate the word at Clay sia
(30:58):
as congregation instead of theword they felt like best
represented their interest,which was church. So you could
say it's just semantics in thesense that there are many
people, most believers thatspeak English as their native
tongue, that use the wordchurch, and what they mean is
(31:22):
what Christ means by it. Andmost of the time, those people
will lean heavily on some ofthose other metaphors that
translate better, like a lot oftalking about the body of Christ
and talking about the people ofGod, I'm talking about, you
know, priesthood of the priests,they'll talk about these sorts
of other analogies with withgreater passion, and then
(31:42):
they'll still find themselvessaying, Well, I'm gonna go to
church, right. And they'll speakof it as the building is a bit.
As far as their use of Englishgoes, It's spot on, as far as
the English choice, the choiceto use church as a translation
for Ecclesia. It's anintentional deception, that even
if what you have in your heart,is the right thing, and you're
(32:05):
using that word, to teach it andtalk about it, it just tends to
creep and gravitate towards thebuilding and the rituals and the
things that we do. And I'm
Gabrielle Leonard (32:15):
just thinking about like your first, we
started this episode with youtalking about the miracles that
you've witnessed as the peopleof God have gathered together
under the the presence andlordship of Jesus, and the
things you got to be a part of,or see and hear, which is far
(32:35):
greater than just pointing to abuilding in a physical space.
Taylor Rogers (32:40):
Absolutely. And I would say that I have also been
in places that for lack of abetter term should be called the
church because of why they existand what they were built for,
and the kind of activities thathappen there. And I've seen
Ecclesia happen there. So it'snot it's not mutually exclusive,
that Ecclesia can't happen inthose environments. Or that
(33:02):
there might even be designatedhouses or buildings or places.
This is not saying that there'san opposition to that. It's
specifically saying that if youwant to speak faithfully about
what the Bible says about thepeople of God, and really the
primary metaphor that theapostles use, interestingly,
it's not the primary metaphorthat Jesus used, I think, over
(33:24):
100, I think, but 111 timesJesus speaks of the kingdom,
three times he mentionsecclesia, right. But there was
obviously a significant shiftwith His death, burial,
resurrection and ascension, andthen the sending of his spirit
among his people to preside. Andthey began to understand that
(33:44):
eckley sia was the most helpfulmetaphor for them to understand
the way they organize themselvesso that they can be effective
agents. Yeah, right of Jesus'swill in the earth. And so I, I
know that if you want to befaithful to the New Testament,
if you want to be biblical, Iwould argue you need to just
(34:05):
stop using the English wordchurch when you talk about this
metaphor.
Gabrielle Leonard (34:11):
Okay, beloved, so we're gonna pause
right there. But of course,we're not going to end the
conversation with Taylor there.
I want you to come back for thenext episode where Taylor
unpacks what could potentiallybe more helpful language for us
when we're trying to describeour gathered experience as the
body of Christ. If you'rehearing this message, you've
(34:33):
listened to the entire episode.
And for that, I am deeplygrateful. I hope this episode
resonated with you and if it didhelp us out by sharing this
episode, and leaving a review onApple podcasts, and Spotify.
Most importantly, reach out tolet me know how you're engaging
with this episode, and whattopics you'd like to see covered
(34:54):
in the future. You can connectwith us on social media, or get
in touch with me directly atGabrielle at returning to
joy.com to share your heart I'llsee you in two weeks for a new
episode
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm
your host, Gabrielle MichelLeonard. Here we're leading
people to cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing.
(00:23):
Welcome back Beloved's. Thisweek, we're venturing into a
thought provoking conversation,titled reimagining church with
our guest, Taylor Rogers. Inthis two part series, Taylor
brings a wealth of wisdom to theconversation, helping us
navigate the various metaphorsused in Scripture, to illustrate
(00:43):
our relationship to Jesus andour role in the world. We'll
discuss the historical andbiblical context of the
ecclesia. And how that contextimpacts how we're to function in
society today. Taylor is theexecutive director of wildfire
network, and nonprofitorganization that exists to help
the dreams of Jesus come true inand through his people. Okay, so
(01:07):
there are a number of ways thatyou could talk about wildfire
network, but my favorite way todescribe it is, as this
collective body of people thathave been called together by
God, and are being sent out inso many diverse and beautiful
ways, it has the essence of thekingdom, and humbly, but yet
(01:27):
bravely carries the heartbeat ofGod. Wildfire is also marked by
this radical giving ofpermission, which Taylor leads
out in so well. Taylor, is thereanything else you'd like to say
about yourself? Right, um, I'mTaylor. And it's not even my
(01:48):
real name. My, my real name isChris,
which I remember that light,that tripped me out one time
when I found that out. So I waslike, dang,
Taylor Rogers (01:56):
my real name, but it's my middle name. And of
combat Taylor, since I was born,I really do seek to be a
faithful follower of Jesus,faithful to my wife, Ashley,
faithful as a father andfaithful as a, as a friend. And
as a brother, and in all theother identity things that that
(02:21):
Jesus has called me to, and allthose that he will call me to,
and far from achieving thecrown, as a certain apostle put
it in any of those categories.
But I'm grateful, because I havehave gotten to benefit and see
far more than my fair share oflove and joy and peace and
kindness and all the things. Ilove that. So including, yeah,
(02:46):
including theopportunity to work with and
support, encourage and be afriend and a brother to you. So
this being on the returning tojoy podcast is an honor for me
as well. I'm excited to be here.
Thank you. Thank you, I reallyappreciate it.
Gabrielle Leonard (03:06):
Taylor, you have seen, you've seen a lot of
miracles. And I think even whenI say you've seen a lot of
miracles.
I mean that in a numerous amountof ways that maybe some people
made it, it may not be the firstthing that comes to mind for
folks when we think about whatmiracles can look like, but
(03:27):
you've seen you've seen a lot ofthem. And I think one of those
miracles that I'mbearing witness to is the way
you've seen the people of Godcome together. And so I'd love
my first question to you is,would you describe a moment when
you truly felt like you werewitnessing the church? Like what
(03:48):
what was your what was present?
There was a distinctivefeatures.
Taylor Rogers (03:59):
Yeah, even as you asked that question, my my mind
is kind of flooded. It's like mylife flashing before my eyes.
There's this this high speed,real and montage of just
miracles. Right? I feel likewhere the, where you see the
church, you see the power of Godat work. And a word that we have
(04:22):
to describe the power of God atwork is the word miracle. So I
liked that you chose that wordfor that because it is something
that that we bear witness to.
Right. And I think maybe acouple months ago, we met for we
have a Wednesday night groupcalled Kindle that meets and we
(04:42):
met at a park at San Pedrosprings Park in San Antonio,
which is a pretty good size citypark and it's not too far from
downtown. On. And, you know,it's definitely frequented by
people. I mean, there's peoplewho sleep in that park,
(05:04):
overnight most nights. There's alot of just various, you know,
criminal activities that occuroccasionally there. But it's
also a place for families wherethe regularly plate, people
drive from across town becauseit's beautiful. I mean, there's
ancient trees, there's beautifulsprings, I mean, it's. So it's a
really cool Park. And we decidedto meet there. Because the
(05:28):
emphasis for our gathering wasspecifically the emphasis of
mission of what has what has Godsent us to do we try to
cultivate and foster worshipcommunity and mission with our
candle gatherings. And thepurpose of this one was mission.
So the big question for us islike, where, where should we
(05:50):
meet. And San Pedro springs Parkwas suggested, that's where we
met. During that time, there wasmaybe 12 to 20 of us. And if an
onlooker was passing by, theymight have felt like, well,
there's random assortment ofpeople doing milling about,
because we have like, you know,differently abled people,
(06:13):
differently aged variety ofdifferent ethnicities
represented people from varioussocio economic experiences. I
mean, it was, it was a fairlydiverse group of 1212 to 20 by
about 20 people. And we prayed,and we sang. And we basically
(06:34):
just said, we're here for God'spurposes, what has gotten we're
doing this park right now. Andsome of the some people felt
like I want to go walk aroundand pray for the people here. I
want to go and as the nightunfolded, I'll just tell you
some of the kinds of things thatI got to see, or someone ran up
to me reporting on. Yeah, yeah.
(06:59):
And this is where it getsserious, because one of the
three times when Jesus used theword ecclesia, was when Peter
made that confession. When hesaid, Thou art the Christ, the
Son of the living God. And Jesussaid, you know, Blessed are you,
(07:20):
Simon, for flesh, and blood hasnot revealed this to you, My
Father in heaven. And then hesaid, I say, also your Peter,
and upon this rock, I will buildmy church, and the gates of hell
shall not prevail against it.
Gates don't move y'all thatEcclesia of God that Jesus will
strengthen and build from theground up, right? That thing
(07:43):
charges the gates of hell. Andthat can't stand against it.
They're gonna break through,right, they're gonna announce
the kingdom. And we got to seean attempted rape for it in a
public bathroom. We got to seethose people who were making
that attempt in their addictionfueled confusion, and, you know,
(08:05):
acting out of their own pain,got to see them held and the
police arrived, eventually getto see a got to see a man who's
formerly incarcerated, who solddrugs and was very much against
police for a good portion of hislife. Got to see him involved in
(08:30):
bringing encouragement and peaceto those officers that were on
that scene, to such a degreethat this officer of a different
race than him asked him forprayer. And here's this guy, who
would probably have more reasonthan most to harbor animosity
towards anyone wearing auniform, especially in the city,
(08:51):
and in here, he is just blessinghim and praying for him. Right.
And it's such a degree that hispartner got out and came over to
see what was going on, because Ithink he was concerned. And he
asked for prayer as well. So itgot to be a cool moment there. I
got to see as we were prayerwalking, my wife and I, my wife
(09:12):
told me this one, one of our oneof the younger men in the group
ze and another guy, they saw acouple where it looked like
there was some very quicklyescalating domestic altercation
that was going on, but it wasacross the park. And he had some
pretty nice shoes. So he quicklytook his shoes off, given a wife
and said, Hold my shoes and tookoff sprinting over towards where
(09:35):
the violence was, was occurring.
And rather than just getinvolved in a fight, they began
talking print and they were ableto sit together for half an hour
ended up praying and that thepeople walked off in peace of
their own accord in differentdirections got to see situation
(09:56):
averted there and then evenamong our group, there was you
know, a young Woman in tearswho's recovering from some
addiction and got to receivesome encouragement from some
people who've walked downsimilar road to her, and testify
to the hope that they've had inChrist Jesus is just a cool
night that any onlooker wouldhave looked at, and probably
(10:17):
wouldn't have assigned the wordchurch to it. But I think when
the apostles were talking aboutecclesia, when Jesus had in
mind, this thing, I think hewould fully affirmed, that's
what was going on in there inthe park that night,
Gabrielle Leonard (10:34):
Taylor you, you also have the opportunity to
go to India, central India, andspend time with a brother of
yours, Pastor s, and witnesswhat was happening among the
people of God there. Howdescribe that to me, like, what,
what were you witnessing there,
Taylor Rogers (10:54):
I was talking to pastor s this morning, and was
reminded of just that time andof their way. And I remember
what he described, and what Iwitnessed when I was with them,
was that a group of them, youknow, brothers and sisters,
usually six to a dozen strong,will go into a new village or a
(11:15):
new town or a new area of town.
And when they walk up, whatinevitably be inevitably happens
is people just kind of stop whatthey're doing, realize why
they're new people around andthey'll they'll gather to, and
they'll say, what's going on,you know, and the little crowd
will gather. And Sunil or, youknow, one of the one of the
brothers that's there will say,is there anyone here that needs
(11:38):
help? Is there anyone sick? Isthere anything going on, that
you're hurting and need help?
And inevitably, someone willbring an auntie out, you know,
who's, who's suffering from someillness, or I remember one time
this guy got brought out thatwas blind. There's sometimes
(12:01):
somebody you know, my husbandgot a leg injury, and we haven't
been able to work. And we're, weneed food, you know. And what
the believers will do in thatinstance, after arriving, and
just asking the community, howthey're hurting, and response
will say, we want to help you,and we want to pray. And so they
will pray in Jesus name forhealing. And sometimes people
(12:27):
aren't heal seems to fall flat,you know, but, but sometimes
there's healing. Sometimesthere's miraculous healing that
just happens, like a man who'sable to see or a person who is
able to get up in the way thatis described in the New
Testament. And what they'll sayis, what the heck just happened.
(12:47):
And they'll just plainly tellthem that just we've seen Jesus
that work, and this is, this isthe salvation of God, that's
coming to you. Yeah, yeah, thename of Jesus and, or they'll,
you know, bring rice with them,or bring water filters or bring
things that they mightanticipate are in need of the
community and be able to offerthose as well and say, these
(13:10):
have been provided by people whoare compassionate it has been
provided, because of the love ofJesus, for you to meet this
need. And the people will say,well, we want to know more,
we've been, you know, we've beenspending our money on these
idols, and on this temples, ourwhole life and not seen anything
like this. And so they'll beginto meet and teach them about
(13:34):
what it's looked like for themto follow Jesus, and they'll
start meeting regularly. Andwhen they meet, they just
express gratitude for what God'sdoing among them. Like, if that
happened to you, you would justwant to meet and just be like,
Okay, I'm really thankful. Thisis amazing. Praise God. And then
that community will raisesomebody up to continue that
(13:54):
process.
Gabrielle Leonard (13:55):
Man, what I love about what you're sharing
is I, you see so much activityof what happens when God's
people are gathered, under thepresence of God. And I hear even
in that story with with Pastors, this almost expectation of,
hey, we're, we're coming here tothis, this, this village, and
(14:19):
we're expecting to bear witnessto the kingdom of God, we're
expecting to see the kingdomlike present, you know, in our
midst, and I love that. I lovethat so much. But this is where
the conversations gets good tome at least. Taylor, you have an
issue with the language ofchurch being the main way we
describe the people of God. Canyou share with us like why? Why
(14:46):
is that in light of what thestories you've witnessed? A lot
of these things you'veparticipated in, why? Why is
that? Why do you take issue withthat? Yeah.
Taylor Rogers (14:57):
So let me be clear that I earnestly seek to
be faithful to the scriptures ofthe New Testament in the Hebrew
Bible. And in no way what I saythat I am against. The people of
God are talking about the peopleof God using language that comes
(15:20):
from the scriptures. Right? Sothe word church is found nowhere
in the New Testament or theHebrew Bible. Many of our
translations, especially inEnglish, and even some of the
other, especially Europeancolonial languages, have a
(15:47):
version of church that they'revery much related to one
another. In terms of concept,law, long story short, I think
that the word church is evildeception, that carries with it
an inherent misleading, of therole and function of the people
(16:12):
of God. And I think that it'stime that we live in a way
that's more faithful to whatJesus was speaking about, and
what the New Testament testifiesto, and speak more accurately
with regard to it so thatourselves and certainly the next
(16:36):
generation may be betterequipped to rid themselves of
some of the chains that comealong with that terminology.
Gabrielle Leonard (16:48):
Yeah, no, that's about that. That's for
some people out there that arelistening. They may go, man,
thank you for saying that. Butfor others who may go, I don't
understand. So can you describelike, Why? Why do you say the
word church is a myth ismisleading terminology.
Taylor Rogers (17:05):
That's great. So the scriptures use a variety of
very important and powerfulmetaphors, to help us understand
how it is that we relate to Godhow it is we relate to one
another? How it is we'resupposed to be in
Gabrielle Leonard (17:24):
the world.
Okay.
Taylor Rogers (17:26):
So some of those metaphors are a little less
familiar, like some theirs werereferred to as the temple and
your living stones were talkedabout as a priesthood, right?
Were talked about as a body,like a human body with many
parts and like a hand and afoot, right, a body in that
(17:47):
sense. That's one of the morerecognizable one of the more
like, endearing and usefulmetaphors that we've been really
right to hold on to. That's ametaphor that talks about the
inherent diversity andspecialization of giftings
(18:08):
within the body of Christ,
Gabrielle Leonard (18:09):
almost like a way of like, how it's a
metaphor, they describe how werelate to one another.
Taylor Rogers (18:13):
That's absolutely the case. Yeah, the body, the
human body is used in Scriptureas a effective metaphor, to help
us understand how do we relateto one another? And even
specifically, how do we relateto God? Right, because a body
with that's decapitated is adead body. Right? So to think
of, to have a head, yes. And andthe head calls the shots, right?
(18:35):
And so there's a real sense ofJesus's Lordship and authority
that is present in that body.
No, that was good. I am. I'mquite convinced that Ecclesia
which is the word that is oftentranslated as church, some
notable exceptions to when it'snot translated as church, but
the word that's often translatedas churches Ecclesia in New
(18:57):
Testament, and that word is ametaphor to help us understand
two things. One, how do werelate to Jesus as Lord? Because
in that clay, sia would have ahead, a person who was in charge
of the ecclesia, and that personwould have the authority to
preside over it, to call it toorder to direct the agenda, if
(19:20):
you will, okay. And it wasoftentimes in the name of that
key authority that the ecclesiawould then operate and implement
the desires of that leader.
Okay, so Ecclesia functioned asa common experience. It was a
(19:41):
common word. It was usedregularly to talk about the
assembly of people thatgoverned, it would be talked
about an assembly that was goingto deal with an enemy threat. It
would talk about a gathering ofpeople that was called together
to deal with a specific problemin the community or society.
(20:05):
Something's got to be done here.
Well, let's call together theecclesia. And we'll make
something
Gabrielle Leonard (20:10):
very purposeful. It was a very
purposeful gathering. Yes,people.
Taylor Rogers (20:14):
So the metaphor of Ecclesia helps us clearly
understand our function as itrelates to the world. Okay, so
the presence of Christ among usas the leader, and function of
how we are to be in the world,that Ecclesia is the most
(20:34):
helpful metaphor, we have anunderstanding that, but it is
not the only metaphor we havefor understanding that. And so
just from a language basis ofhow do you approach the New
Testament, I think that it'simportant to get that part
right. Before you can move alittle further down to well, why
was it some Why was the wordchurch chosen to represent
(21:00):
Ecclesia? Because that's adifferent metaphor. So we're
church, absolutely, from effortsa different concept entirely
than what Ecclesia is intended.
Just
Gabrielle Leonard (21:13):
before we move away from that metaphor of
the ecclesia. Something that yousaid earlier that I thought was
really powerful is you werereferring to the ecclesia. The
main purpose of that metaphor isto demonstrate how lordship is
implemented through an empoweredgroup of people. And so in this
case, we're talking about theLordship of Jesus. That's right.
(21:35):
And I also like thought, like,then you then you reference,
like, we were talking earlier,you're talking about this, like,
it's like this assembly that hasthe power and authority to
change to make change? Yes,because of who's called it? Yes.
Who's in charge? Yes. And thepower that they have, that
they're actually giving to thepeople that they've called to
(21:57):
assemble? That's right. Okay.
And then you were saying, like,the ecclesia, the body and the
kingdom of God metaphor, one ofthe things that all of those
have in common between eachother, is this, like, implied
presence. That's right. Can youdescribe to me a little bit more
about what you mean by thatimplied presence between those
three metaphors that are oftenused in Scripture,
Taylor Rogers (22:20):
but Kingdom has a king? That's the defining
element of what makes a kingdomas opposed to some other sort of
leadership structure? Yeah. Sothe implied presence of Goddess
King, and even Jesus as Messiahas this anointed king, is
required. In order for thevisions that Jesus speaks of the
(22:42):
parables, the way he talks aboutthe Kingdom of God requires his
presence, right? Andacknowledgement of that, that of
his lordship, a body, as wementioned earlier, a body
without a head is dead. Right?
So the body has to remainattached to its head in order to
live. And so there's a sense oflike, implied connection. Right?
(23:04):
Another thing is Jesus, that I'mthe vine, you're the branches,
right? The the heart of thatmetaphor is the the necessity of
constant connection.
Gabrielle Leonard (23:17):
Yeah. To him.
Taylor Rogers (23:19):
Right. Lose that you burn it down gonna bear
fruit? Yeah, right. An Ecclesia.
Without the presence of thatleader that has the authority to
call it is powerless, isconfused? Is that effective?
Right? Is kind of looks morelike a mob than an Ecclesia.
Gabrielle Leonard (23:46):
No, that's good. That's good, right.
Taylor Rogers (23:48):
And so so there's a sense of in order for an
Ecclesia to really functionwell, for what it's intended to
do, which it's a purposefullygathered, assembly or calling to
deal with the problems outsideof itself. It has to have that
clear leadership present, andthat leadership is Jesus.
Gabrielle Leonard (24:09):
So Taylor, you mentioned earlier that the
word church is an entirelydifferent metaphor. And it's
different than the metaphorEcclesia and what it was used
for to describe the people ofGod that have gathered together.
Do you can you show us a placein scripture where like that
scene?
Taylor Rogers (24:28):
Yeah, that's, that's a fun question. One of my
favorite places to study for forthis as Acts chapter 19. And in
Acts chapter 19, the wordEcclesia is used three times, I
believe, and the three timesthat Ekklesia is used in most
(24:57):
translations, and certainly inthe King James translation. It
is not translated as church.
There's different words that areused to translate the word
Ecclesia. Why is this? It isbecause Demetrius, the
silversmith, who was a personwho had benefited greatly from
the idle, industry of emphasis,recognized rightly so the threat
(25:20):
that Paul and the teaching ofJesus as Lord posed to their
industry, when he calledtogether those people that you
know, were on his payroll, orwho he had authority to call
together, and said, Guys, we gotto deal with this, our
livelihoods are at stake. If wedon't deal with this problem,
(25:40):
people are gonna stop buyingidols. Right. So he called
together the ecclesia his of hisown making of his own calling,
called together to deal with it.
And so they start rounding upPaul's buddies to take him to
the theater. Now, what it saysis interesting is that it goes,
but they weren't able toactually lay a hand on them.
(26:03):
Because some people said, well,we should do it this way. And
some people said, We should doit that way. So because they
were in disagreement anddisunity, it says the ecclesia
was ineffective. And able to donothing
Gabrielle Leonard (26:16):
more I guess in that translation, the in the
King James would say like theassembly, yeah, it probably
Taylor Rogers (26:22):
says assembly here. But most every other
place. You choose the wordchurch, and I'll get to one in
just a moment. But But then,what's interesting is that a
person of greater authority inthe city, and King James calls
at the town clerk, but it was areal position of authority and
emphasis came and said, Hey, wedon't want to get we don't want
(26:42):
to get in trouble here. Ifyou've got a real issue with
these guys. Why don't you bringon up to the big Ecclesia? Why
don't you deal with it? And thenI think King James translates it
as a legal assembly, but it'sactually just the same word.
It's just a different personwith a different authority.
Calling it okay. And presiding.
Yeah, that's how so he's saying,hey, why don't you come you
know, do this. And anyway,what's interesting is that in
(27:05):
this chapter, were three timesthat clay C is used King James
translators at assembly, legalassembly and then think crowd
and one is in verse 37, theEnglish word church is used.
Okay? In the King James andverse 37, it says, For ye have
brought hither these men, whichare neither robbers of churches,
(27:26):
nor yet blasphemers of yourgoddess. It used the word
churches, they're in refer to aGreek word that talked about the
temples, the pagan temples,right? But it used the English
word church, because that wasthe right English word to use
for that. Because that's exactlywhat they were talking about
(27:49):
when they say these guys aren'tthese guys aren't stealing gold
from the temple, they're notrobbing the church, meaning
they're not taking items fromthat temple. This to this
building, physical building.
Okay, that's right. And thethings that belong to the God
that are there, okay. Okay, so.
So it actually uses the Englishword church at a place where
(28:10):
Ecclesia is not present. Andthere's multiple times where
accuracy is used, and they chosesomething different. So here's
why. There's a totally separateword that was used in in Greek
to talk about the temple and thethings belonging to the God. And
it was Chiriac KTRK. Okay, andthat word ended up being kick
(28:35):
kick in like the German and thenchurch. And then you can see how
it eventually morphs intoEnglish word church. So the word
church actually has anetymology, that points to the
buildings, okay. And that pointsto the the kind of like rites
and priestly activities andarticles that happened in those
(28:57):
mostly pagan temples.
Gabrielle Leonard (29:01):
Okay, almost like like ceremony and a little
yellow stone. So
Taylor Rogers (29:05):
when they said church, and they were talking
about a building, and the thepeople who worked at the
building that were formal clergyand the types of things that go
on there, they knew exactly whatthey were referring to. But it
was an entirely different word,entirely different metaphor than
Ecclesia. I know that there's alot of people now it's just
(29:28):
semantics. Yeah, that is, that'sone way to look at it. Yeah,
absolutely. It's just semantics.
William Tyndale, in 1526authored the first English
language translation of the NewTestament, and very quickly, it
was made illegal called intoquestion he became a man who was
(29:51):
hunted by the state. And therewas several examples of things
Is that he translated that theyfelt like were incredibly
egregious, because it threatenedhow they wanted religion to be
experienced by the masses. Okay?
(30:12):
One of them was he dared totranslate the word agape as
love, instead of charity,charity more benefits easily
lent itself to an understandingof alms giving that sort of
charity. He dared to translatemetta noia, as repent. Instead
(30:34):
of do penance, which do penance,lend itself to whatever
prescription the priest wouldprescribe for you to pay for
your sentence. And worst of all,and worthy of him being burned
at the stake. 10 years after thepublication of this translation
as a heretic was a he dared totranslate the word at Clay sia
(30:58):
as congregation instead of theword they felt like best
represented their interest,which was church. So you could
say it's just semantics in thesense that there are many
people, most believers thatspeak English as their native
tongue, that use the wordchurch, and what they mean is
(31:22):
what Christ means by it. Andmost of the time, those people
will lean heavily on some ofthose other metaphors that
translate better, like a lot oftalking about the body of Christ
and talking about the people ofGod, I'm talking about, you
know, priesthood of the priests,they'll talk about these sorts
of other analogies with withgreater passion, and then
(31:42):
they'll still find themselvessaying, Well, I'm gonna go to
church, right. And they'll speakof it as the building is a bit.
As far as their use of Englishgoes, It's spot on, as far as
the English choice, the choiceto use church as a translation
for Ecclesia. It's anintentional deception, that even
if what you have in your heart,is the right thing, and you're
(32:05):
using that word, to teach it andtalk about it, it just tends to
creep and gravitate towards thebuilding and the rituals and the
things that we do. And I'm
Gabrielle Leonard (32:15):
just thinking about like your first, we
started this episode with youtalking about the miracles that
you've witnessed as the peopleof God have gathered together
under the the presence andlordship of Jesus, and the
things you got to be a part of,or see and hear, which is far
(32:35):
greater than just pointing to abuilding in a physical space.
Taylor Rogers (32:40):
Absolutely. And I would say that I have also been
in places that for lack of abetter term should be called the
church because of why they existand what they were built for,
and the kind of activities thathappen there. And I've seen
Ecclesia happen there. So it'snot it's not mutually exclusive,
that Ecclesia can't happen inthose environments. Or that
(33:02):
there might even be designatedhouses or buildings or places.
This is not saying that there'san opposition to that. It's
specifically saying that if youwant to speak faithfully about
what the Bible says about thepeople of God, and really the
primary metaphor that theapostles use, interestingly,
it's not the primary metaphorthat Jesus used, I think, over
(33:24):
100, I think, but 111 timesJesus speaks of the kingdom,
three times he mentionsecclesia, right. But there was
obviously a significant shiftwith His death, burial,
resurrection and ascension, andthen the sending of his spirit
among his people to preside. Andthey began to understand that
(33:44):
eckley sia was the most helpfulmetaphor for them to understand
the way they organize themselvesso that they can be effective
agents. Yeah, right of Jesus'swill in the earth. And so I, I
know that if you want to befaithful to the New Testament,
if you want to be biblical, Iwould argue you need to just
(34:05):
stop using the English wordchurch when you talk about this
metaphor.
Gabrielle Leonard (34:11):
Okay, beloved, so we're gonna pause
right there. But of course,we're not going to end the
conversation with Taylor there.
I want you to come back for thenext episode where Taylor
unpacks what could potentiallybe more helpful language for us
when we're trying to describeour gathered experience as the
body of Christ. If you'rehearing this message, you've
(34:33):
listened to the entire episode.
And for that, I am deeplygrateful. I hope this episode
resonated with you and if it didhelp us out by sharing this
episode, and leaving a review onApple podcasts, and Spotify.
Most importantly, reach out tolet me know how you're engaging
with this episode, and whattopics you'd like to see covered
(34:54):
in the future. You can connectwith us on social media, or get
in touch with me directly atGabrielle at returning to
joy.com to share your heart I'llsee you in two weeks for a new
episode
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