Thank you for tuning in to Part 2 of our conversation with Taylor Rogers, Executive Director of Wildfire Network. Wildfire Network is a community that exists to help the dreams of Jesus come true— in and through His people.
In this episode, we'll continue our conversation about reimagining the church as we know it. We'll begin to dive into not only alternative metaphors and ways of understanding the church we are striving to be, but why it's important to have these conversations in order to connect with one another and with Christ. It's in those spaces of unity and connection with the body of Christ, that we really experience healing, justice, and restoration.
This episode wraps up Season 3 of the Returning to Joy podcast. Thank you for journeying with us, and stay tuned for our comeback in August with some exciting episodes in Season 4.
Thanks for subscribing and leaving a review! Please feel free to share with your family and friends.
Website: https://www.returningtojoy.com/
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Music by AG (Affirming Grace) @agmusic4god
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(09:53:06):
Welcome to the return to joypodcast. I'm your host,
Gabrielle Michel Leonard. Herewe're leading people to
cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing.
(09:53:30):
Welcome back Beloved's. If youjoined us for our last episode,
then you know, we started aconversation with Taylor Rogers,
the executive director ofwildfire network, about
reimagining church. If youhaven't yet listened to part
one, we highly recommend thatyou do so. In the episode we
unpacked the value ofreconsidering the language we
(09:53:51):
use to describe the people ofGod when gathered. In this part
two, we'll be jumping right backinto that conversation with
Taylor, as he offers advice fordiscovering new language that
faithfully reflects theexperiences of God's people. Is
there any any new language thatyou propose? You know, that's
(09:54:14):
another option if people go man,I do want to be faithful to
describing what it is that I'mbearing witness to and
participating in. That isreflective of what the apostles
were bearing witness to in thein the New Testament? What
language could be given todescribe what we're
(09:54:37):
experiencing?
The first thing that comes tomind is the beauty and
simplicity of when the the manwho was blind and who was given
his site is called into questionby the religious authorities.
And just the leaders, andthey're like, what's going on
here? I don't know. I don't knowwhat you're talking about. All I
(09:54:58):
know, is that I was blind. Andnow I can see, yeah, it's very
clear, descriptive language ofwhat's actually happening in
ways that would be understood byanyone, regardless of your
awareness of, like, religiouslanguage, or technical language.
So I hesitate to just put apositive substitute for the word
(09:55:24):
church. Because we just don'thave Ecclesia doesn't function
as a modern way of gathering andassembling. That's not how our
government works. It's not. Andhonestly, if you were to take
modern analogies, there'd bemore of you might say,
Legislative Assembly for some,okay, you might say war party.
(09:55:44):
Okay, for others. There, youmight say Task Force, right?
There's different types ofmetaphors or analogies, for
which Ecclesia is a littlebroader than that in our modern
equivalents. So I think if Iwere to speak to the heart of
it, I think saying, a missionalcommunity, maybe gets at the
(09:56:08):
heart of it. But to be honestwith you, I don't, I would
hesitate to just put areplacement there for it. Yeah.
And I would say, rather thantrying to just replace that as a
term, try to just testify andbear witness to what you see and
hear. You know, God doing. Yeah.
And I think that it's okay to,you know, so So I mentioned the
(09:56:31):
word church, because that'sEnglish. Spanish says iglesia,
right and iglesia is just kindof a transliteration of
Ecclesia. Yeah, you can almosthear it. Yeah. When I say that,
right. But in glazier was justas off track in terms of the
concept that they had in theirmind. Right? When they said in
Glacia, they really did most ofthe time. Most writers, most
(09:56:52):
thinkers, certainly those onesin power. They were referencing
the same things that the Englishrightly called church. Yeah. In
terms of that's what they weredescribing. Right? So so even if
the word is fixed, right, andyou're saying English here,
which is basically just sayinglike, ecclesia, right? But you
have the wrong metaphor thatyou're pointing to with your
(09:57:15):
language. So I regardless ofwhat language you would choose
for it, I would say fixthe metaphor. That makes sense.
Okay. No, that makes sense.
And there's no here's why thatmatters. Because there is power
and there is authority. Thegates of hell cannot stand
against this thing.
Yeah, that was powerful for mewhen you were talking about
Jesus's statement back to Peter,referencing like a hay and upon
(09:57:39):
this rock, I will build mychurch and the gates of hell
will not prevail against it andin real and looking in that of
like, oh, yeah, that's whatstagnant that's what's like not
is not moving. But the, the bodyof Christ, the people of God,
like filled with the power andpresence and authority of Jesus.
(09:58:00):
They move and they take groundand they run they like run into
the to places where there's thisfalse authority trying to
operate and bringing theauthority and lordship of Jesus,
we look for the gates of hell,not to run from them, but to
storm them.
varices maybe having not fixing,like just expanding? I think I
(09:58:21):
heard you say at one point, thatthe reason why how we talk about
who we are, as this gatheredcommunity matters. And the
reason why church sometimes canbe like not quite efficient
enough, is because it limits ourimagination for what it means
what it could mean, what thepossibilities could be for a
(09:58:42):
people gathered under theLordship of Jesus that are
connected to one another and areresponding to the issues and
problems of our day. We want toexpand our missional
imagination, we want to expandfor what could be possible.
Yeah. And so I thought that thatwas really helpful because it
(09:59:05):
can feel like is this just asemantics is just like a
argument about language? And youknow, and I, I would say like,
yeah, if this is all about justan argument about language, then
that's like futile and, andridiculous. But if we're talking
about the importance of us notlimiting what is possible, when
(09:59:27):
Pete when the people of God aregathering, that that matters
greatly. It matter does mattergreatly. It can't be just like,
okay, yeah, I do church, I go tochurch, I invite people to
church that's just veryconnected to this physical
building, versus somethingthat's much more miraculous and
mysterious. Yeah, thatresonates. To wrap up our time,
(09:59:55):
I'm thinking about, like, ifsomeone's been listening to or
turning to joy podcasts, andmaybe they have some sense of
okay, I know this is aboutconnection. And, and our
mission, if you will, is there'sa desire to cultivate healing,
Justice restoration by revealingpathways to transformative
connection. How would you saythat this conversation relates
(10:00:19):
to thatthere's a lot of talk of, like,
unity, or even connection. Andoftentimes, for those who are
seeking to follow Jesus, andeven do so with a way that's
anchored in Scripture, is oftenfind themselves, you know,
(10:00:40):
anchored in like the prayers ofJesus in John 17. And, and just
the numerous biblical passagesthat speak to unity, and
connection, right. And there's avery real sense in which the
mutual connection that you canhave, when you are mutually
(10:01:05):
connected to Christ. If that'sreal, and if it's, you know,
surrender to Jesus, but in a waythat just acknowledges him as
Lord, right, that the power ofthat connection to open you up
to experience healing, andrestoration is incomparable in
(10:01:29):
the universe, in my opinion. Butthat power to reconcile and
connect you with others, isequally incomparable. I have had
so many experiences where Idon't even speak the same
language as someone who havecompletely different cultures
from different places in theworld. And yet they are brother,
(10:01:52):
their sister, and in the deepestdearest sense of what I can
understand that word to me, torecognize is limited, but in a
way that sometimes feels evenmore so than those who I share
every similarity with, but whoare not connected to Jesus as
(10:02:14):
Lord, and who don't, who aren'texperiencing the life, His
Spirit at work in them. So interms of connection with people
in terms of the experience of,of healing, I think, I think
Ecclesia when it's experiencedby someone has the power to
(10:02:35):
usher in reconciliation andsalvation for you has the power
to demonstrate a justice and aconnectedness that is absolutely
incomparable in the world. And Ithink that because I want to see
(10:02:55):
more of that and I want to seemore of that in future
generations. I think that theinstruments that We use for
teaching and for encapsulatingthose ideas matter greatly. So
that they might be purified. Andin being purified, have more
value more power, more clarity,able to be used. So, that may be
(10:03:21):
a attempt to say, Okay, how doesthis connect to that? It
connects to it on the side of ifyou're going to share this, if
you've experienced it, that'sone thing in terms of just
connection in general. But howdo you share connection? Right?
And at some point, how do youtalk about it?
(10:03:46):
Yeah. Yeah, I, for me, I thinkwhy this conversation matters
greatly. And it's one I knowthat, you know, we usually have
more in depth, ly in separatemoments, but when I think about
that heartbeat, in that, thatdesire for the cultivation for
(10:04:07):
the reveal, for like, healing,justice, transplant this like
restoration repair, those are,those are big words that are
thrown around quite a bit. ButI, for me, when I think about
the way the ecclesia isdescribed in Scripture, when I
think about moments that haveI've borne witness to where I've
(10:04:31):
saw people having this deeplevel of understanding of who
they are, who created them, whothey belong to, who is their
Lord, and their, their place ofidentity, they're in connection
to Christ. And then there's thispurposeful, fulfilling, and hole
(10:04:57):
connection to other people, thatpeople of God that gather on
mission, sent out to engage theworld, engage the culture, I see
the truest demonstration of thecultivation of Healing Justice.
Yeah. And restoration. Yeah,like that, like I see like, no,
(10:05:19):
no disconnection there of like,Man, I in the same way, I think
of John 15, of God, of Jesus,referring to him being the vine
and speaking to a collectivebody. He wasn't speaking to just
one in saying, You remaining me,but he was speaking to them,
saying, when you remain in me,it's going to be impossible,
actually, for you to not bearfruit. Then in that I see the
(10:05:41):
signs of the kingdom, I seemiracles. And in our English
language, the best attempt, thatthat we even get it in our
mission statement and trying toarticulate what some of those
miracles could look like. Thatwould be our is healing,
justice, restoration. Yeah. Buteven in that of like, man, it
(10:06:01):
feels like such a miss, wherethere may not be a language. A
word to fully describe. Yeah.
This majestic miracle that isalmost unexplainable. I think
that's why so many times in thegospels, you had people going,
would you just come and see,would you just I think about I
(10:06:21):
think, I think John garlandmentioned it earlier in his
episode of Philip, when he wastalking to Nathaniel knotch. He
wasn't he didn't give the annualhey, here's all the reasons.
Here's the my three point, youknow, sermon on the reason why,
like, this is the Christobviously, like, there's also
places in the gospels or in thein in the letters, where there
is this teaching and instructionabout who is Jesus in the
(10:06:48):
message of Christ. But you alsosee so many times when people
were encountering Jesus havingno word truly to describe him,
but just being like, I just allI know is, yeah, this happened,
I think of this Samaritan womanthat went back running through
the town, come and see, come andsee a man who told me everything
about myself. Could this be theChrist? Like?
(10:07:10):
Yeah, yeah. Where people arealmost like, they have no words.
I where there's where they didgive words like, right, but
there's almost this, like, howdo I? How do I describe what
just happened? Like, I just wantyou to experience it. I just
want you to wit and bear witnessto what I, what I've seen with
my eyes what I've experienced,like what my heart has, has just
(10:07:35):
encountered? Yeah,I think that if instead of
saying, will you come to churchwith me, if you could say, I
believe Jesus really is the kingof the universe, and I'm among
the people that bear witness tothat as a fact, not as an idea.
Like, come see, and that youwould invite that person and
(10:07:56):
that the way that you aretogether regardless of where you
meet, or under works withcircumstances or is that the way
that you are together. And theway that you are in response to
Jesus, when you gather, actuallyis evidence of his Lordship and
his will and that, like, that'sthe kind of community where
(10:08:18):
debts are paid as the kind offamily where there's just
beauty, there's like,reconciliation is possible,
like, miracles happen. Yeah. Youknow, there's there's things
that happen. provision is made,like, I mean, we often talk
about, and it's oftentimes itseems with this like, elusive,
(10:08:42):
almost like wistful longing forthe church of x, right, broke
bread together in one another'shomes and shared among them.
This is often spoken to withlike, such like, Oh, right. And
it is that beautiful, it is thatbeautiful, that's deserving of
(10:09:04):
all. But they were operatingunder the idea of Ecclesia as
their primary metaphor for howthey were to operate in the
world. Right. So if we want toget closer to that, it helps for
us to have more of anunderstanding of how they
(10:09:24):
thought of themselves. Right. Sowhich, from what I'm hearing you
say, one of the primary waysthey were thinking of
themselves, if they wereadopting that metaphor of
ecclesia, it was, Okay. We'vegot this common Lord, we're
believing Jesus, Jesus is Lordis the declaration that we're
(10:09:45):
making together as a collectivegroup of people. Yes, he's the
one in authority. He's the onewith the power.
And he's the one with the love,and he's the one with the really
good ideas for how to deal withproblems. Okay. So with wildfire
network, we say wildfire existsto help the dreams of Jesus come
(10:10:05):
true through people, okay. It'sbecause we don't feel like we
have the vision for solvingeconomic disparity in our city,
or for saving everyone fromaddiction or for, you know, like
all the things that are all theproblems. We know that Jesus
does. We trust that Jesus cares.
And we want to try to organizeourselves in such a way, that
(10:10:26):
it's the most efficient way forthose dreams and desires of
Jesus to be activated throughhis people. So Ecclesia there is
a sense in which we talk aboutthe church. Okay, right. And
when we say the church, normallywe're meaning like, all the
people of God, right, everyonewho calls upon the name of the
(10:10:47):
Lord, is what we're meaningwe're meaning the whole body.
Right. But there is a sense,when Jesus said to Peter, you
know, I will build my church.
First of all, he was takingownership. All right. So
yeah, I am the one who's callingthis yes,
(10:11:08):
there is a very real sense inwhich that clay sia is like,
infinitely, like contextualized,like Ecclesia can be very small.
Right? Welfare network owes muchof its structure and innovation
(10:11:29):
to the micro church movement.
Right? Because it's this ideathat like, ecclesia, is more
contingent on the authority ofthe Lord, the authority of the
head of it, right. And then itis on any particular size. Got
it? Yeah. So yeah, or, and thenyeah, it can just, it's very
flexible, like you can talkabout the ecclesia and Rome,
(10:11:51):
which might be like seven oreight expressions of gathering
that irregular, you know, andit's a flexible term that can
talk about the smallestgathering, it can talk about all
of those in the city, that arethe ecclesia. Of of Jesus. Yeah.
And we can talk about everyonein the world that has that.
(10:12:12):
I almost wonder if, if Ecclesiaif we were to try and make an
attempt at language that wouldbe culturally appropriate for us
today. How was one sometimes Iwonder if like community
organizer, organizer, would be asimilar word choice in the in
(10:12:32):
the in the nature of like, whathappens when there's when you
have community organizers whocome in? I mean, it's probably
like, and it's probably astretch in some ways, but you
have community organizers thatcome into community and usually
what they're doing in that case,one they're probably not,
they're actually trying notcoming as an authoritative
figure. They're, they'reactually coming of like, they're
(10:12:53):
trying to empower the voices ofthe community to gather and for
them to band together to addresslike a felt need within their
community that could be Hey,this community organizer comes
in and tries to help the peopleorganize As because there's a
lot of kids that are getting hitby cars and recognize, hey, we
can organize our voices andapproach our city government. We
can get sidewalks here. Yeah.
And so it's like there's a,there's a level of a gathering
(10:13:16):
happening there among peoplewith a group of people that have
a problem in their area orregion that collectively band
together to get that problemfixed. But even that, Paul
short, some, but that it makesme think about that a little
bit.
(10:13:36):
I think that's, that's great. Ithink that what's wonderful is
that, like, as cultures merge,as there are new technologies
that develop, we can borrow newmetaphors. Right? So even the
metaphor of network networksspeaks to, like, with it
(10:13:58):
networking, it has more to dowith the protocol, like, how are
we going to relate to andconnect to each other so that we
can have a mutual strengththat's greater than individual
strength? That's really justcontingent on the nature of our
connection. That's what anetwork is. Right? It's not
like, yeah, its strength isdetermined by the strengthen of
(10:14:19):
its connections. Right? That'show in the network, yeah, it's a
metaphor. Butthe key differentiating piece
that even the both of those fallshort in, is we're saying that
the ecclesia, part of thestrength of it is it has an
identifiable and it Lord, whoactually does have the power
that's keeping them connectedtogether.
(10:14:40):
Yeah. So when you were talkingabout just putting out there
community organizing as aconcept, feel like Christ gang
feel like a gang. It's prettygood. I mean, most gangs are
organized, and they operate inways that probably don't have
the kingdom of God as thecentral concern as to how they
(10:15:01):
do things. But if you thinkabout why they're formed, how
they're formed, how theyoperate, you know, there's some
things and then the, even theclear identity piece that's
associated with, like, when youjoin a gang light, I mean, Jesus
said, like, hey, if anybodywants to come after Me, you
gotta like, join my gang. Youknow what I mean? And there's
(10:15:24):
also a sense of like, you don'tget out of the game. Right.
So there's the element, youknow, it's my desk.
Yeah, I've so let him so Ithink, I think that there's
maybe a yet but there's a realsense in which, like, the
identity piece connected withgangs, the idea that the same
gang, you know, can pop up indifferent places, and all have a
(10:15:48):
shared sense of identity andpurpose. Right. A gang exists
for a purpose. Right now greatpurpose. No, but yeah,
but but it is a purpose. Yeah.
And yeah, so some of the originstories of gangs are even more
towards a version of protectingyour community or certain
assets. So I feel like gang ismaybe you know, Christ gang.
(10:16:11):
Right? Is a is a is a metaphor,that maybe is challenging for
some people to think about. Butin terms of just the fact that
it is a people that are doing athing for a purpose. And then
it's, you know, there's someidentity connect piece might be
a helpful one for us to thinkof, you know, like, what does it
mean to Christ colors? Yeah.
(10:16:34):
What is that? What does it looklike to join his gang? You know,
how do we operate? So so maybethat's a creative stab at like,
Hey, that's a metaphor.
So tailor to which as we wrapup, which uses speak a blessing
to all those that would gatheras the people of God.
(10:16:56):
Yes. without reservation orhesitation, I would say to all
those who call upon the name ofthe Lord Jesus to all those
whose hearts are huddled in theupper room, longing for the
presence and power and lordshipof Jesus to be made known in
(10:17:18):
this world, may you know him andthe power of his resurrection.
May you receive the calling thatHe has for you and for community
(10:17:39):
around you? May you in some veryspecific, very beautiful, very
Hellgate bashing way, say ofyourself. I am anointed to
preach good news to the poor,and bring freedom to the
(10:18:02):
oppressed to give sight to theblind release for the prisoner
and to declare this says theyear of the Lord's favor.
Amen. Thank you. Thank you,Taylor. Hope that was blessing
to you all. This conversationwith Taylor concludes season
three of the return to joypodcast. I am moving and I am
(10:18:25):
preparing to go on sabbatical inthe month of July. So excited
about that. So subscribe to thepodcast and follow us on social
media so you can get word of ourcomeback in August and be right
back with this for season four.
Welcome to the return to joypodcast. I'm your host,
Gabrielle Michel Leonard. Herewe're leading people to
cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing.
(09:53:30):
Welcome back Beloved's. If youjoined us for our last episode,
then you know, we started aconversation with Taylor Rogers,
the executive director ofwildfire network, about
reimagining church. If youhaven't yet listened to part
one, we highly recommend thatyou do so. In the episode we
unpacked the value ofreconsidering the language we
(09:53:51):
use to describe the people ofGod when gathered. In this part
two, we'll be jumping right backinto that conversation with
Taylor, as he offers advice fordiscovering new language that
faithfully reflects theexperiences of God's people. Is
there any any new language thatyou propose? You know, that's
(09:54:14):
another option if people go man,I do want to be faithful to
describing what it is that I'mbearing witness to and
participating in. That isreflective of what the apostles
were bearing witness to in thein the New Testament? What
language could be given todescribe what we're
(09:54:37):
experiencing?
The first thing that comes tomind is the beauty and
simplicity of when the the manwho was blind and who was given
his site is called into questionby the religious authorities.
And just the leaders, andthey're like, what's going on
here? I don't know. I don't knowwhat you're talking about. All I
(09:54:58):
know, is that I was blind. Andnow I can see, yeah, it's very
clear, descriptive language ofwhat's actually happening in
ways that would be understood byanyone, regardless of your
awareness of, like, religiouslanguage, or technical language.
So I hesitate to just put apositive substitute for the word
(09:55:24):
church. Because we just don'thave Ecclesia doesn't function
as a modern way of gathering andassembling. That's not how our
government works. It's not. Andhonestly, if you were to take
modern analogies, there'd bemore of you might say,
Legislative Assembly for some,okay, you might say war party.
(09:55:44):
Okay, for others. There, youmight say Task Force, right?
There's different types ofmetaphors or analogies, for
which Ecclesia is a littlebroader than that in our modern
equivalents. So I think if Iwere to speak to the heart of
it, I think saying, a missionalcommunity, maybe gets at the
(09:56:08):
heart of it. But to be honestwith you, I don't, I would
hesitate to just put areplacement there for it. Yeah.
And I would say, rather thantrying to just replace that as a
term, try to just testify andbear witness to what you see and
hear. You know, God doing. Yeah.
And I think that it's okay to,you know, so So I mentioned the
(09:56:31):
word church, because that'sEnglish. Spanish says iglesia,
right and iglesia is just kindof a transliteration of
Ecclesia. Yeah, you can almosthear it. Yeah. When I say that,
right. But in glazier was justas off track in terms of the
concept that they had in theirmind. Right? When they said in
Glacia, they really did most ofthe time. Most writers, most
(09:56:52):
thinkers, certainly those onesin power. They were referencing
the same things that the Englishrightly called church. Yeah. In
terms of that's what they weredescribing. Right? So so even if
the word is fixed, right, andyou're saying English here,
which is basically just sayinglike, ecclesia, right? But you
have the wrong metaphor thatyou're pointing to with your
(09:57:15):
language. So I regardless ofwhat language you would choose
for it, I would say fixthe metaphor. That makes sense.
Okay. No, that makes sense.
And there's no here's why thatmatters. Because there is power
and there is authority. Thegates of hell cannot stand
against this thing.
Yeah, that was powerful for mewhen you were talking about
Jesus's statement back to Peter,referencing like a hay and upon
(09:57:39):
this rock, I will build mychurch and the gates of hell
will not prevail against it andin real and looking in that of
like, oh, yeah, that's whatstagnant that's what's like not
is not moving. But the, the bodyof Christ, the people of God,
like filled with the power andpresence and authority of Jesus.
(09:58:00):
They move and they take groundand they run they like run into
the to places where there's thisfalse authority trying to
operate and bringing theauthority and lordship of Jesus,
we look for the gates of hell,not to run from them, but to
storm them.
varices maybe having not fixing,like just expanding? I think I
(09:58:21):
heard you say at one point, thatthe reason why how we talk about
who we are, as this gatheredcommunity matters. And the
reason why church sometimes canbe like not quite efficient
enough, is because it limits ourimagination for what it means
what it could mean, what thepossibilities could be for a
(09:58:42):
people gathered under theLordship of Jesus that are
connected to one another and areresponding to the issues and
problems of our day. We want toexpand our missional
imagination, we want to expandfor what could be possible.
Yeah. And so I thought that thatwas really helpful because it
(09:59:05):
can feel like is this just asemantics is just like a
argument about language? And youknow, and I, I would say like,
yeah, if this is all about justan argument about language, then
that's like futile and, andridiculous. But if we're talking
about the importance of us notlimiting what is possible, when
(09:59:27):
Pete when the people of God aregathering, that that matters
greatly. It matter does mattergreatly. It can't be just like,
okay, yeah, I do church, I go tochurch, I invite people to
church that's just veryconnected to this physical
building, versus somethingthat's much more miraculous and
mysterious. Yeah, thatresonates. To wrap up our time,
(09:59:55):
I'm thinking about, like, ifsomeone's been listening to or
turning to joy podcasts, andmaybe they have some sense of
okay, I know this is aboutconnection. And, and our
mission, if you will, is there'sa desire to cultivate healing,
Justice restoration by revealingpathways to transformative
connection. How would you saythat this conversation relates
(10:00:19):
to thatthere's a lot of talk of, like,
unity, or even connection. Andoftentimes, for those who are
seeking to follow Jesus, andeven do so with a way that's
anchored in Scripture, is oftenfind themselves, you know,
(10:00:40):
anchored in like the prayers ofJesus in John 17. And, and just
the numerous biblical passagesthat speak to unity, and
connection, right. And there's avery real sense in which the
mutual connection that you canhave, when you are mutually
(10:01:05):
connected to Christ. If that'sreal, and if it's, you know,
surrender to Jesus, but in a waythat just acknowledges him as
Lord, right, that the power ofthat connection to open you up
to experience healing, andrestoration is incomparable in
(10:01:29):
the universe, in my opinion. Butthat power to reconcile and
connect you with others, isequally incomparable. I have had
so many experiences where Idon't even speak the same
language as someone who havecompletely different cultures
from different places in theworld. And yet they are brother,
(10:01:52):
their sister, and in the deepestdearest sense of what I can
understand that word to me, torecognize is limited, but in a
way that sometimes feels evenmore so than those who I share
every similarity with, but whoare not connected to Jesus as
(10:02:14):
Lord, and who don't, who aren'texperiencing the life, His
Spirit at work in them. So interms of connection with people
in terms of the experience of,of healing, I think, I think
Ecclesia when it's experiencedby someone has the power to
(10:02:35):
usher in reconciliation andsalvation for you has the power
to demonstrate a justice and aconnectedness that is absolutely
incomparable in the world. And Ithink that because I want to see
(10:02:55):
more of that and I want to seemore of that in future
generations. I think that theinstruments that We use for
teaching and for encapsulatingthose ideas matter greatly. So
that they might be purified. Andin being purified, have more
value more power, more clarity,able to be used. So, that may be
(10:03:21):
a attempt to say, Okay, how doesthis connect to that? It
connects to it on the side of ifyou're going to share this, if
you've experienced it, that'sone thing in terms of just
connection in general. But howdo you share connection? Right?
And at some point, how do youtalk about it?
(10:03:46):
Yeah. Yeah, I, for me, I thinkwhy this conversation matters
greatly. And it's one I knowthat, you know, we usually have
more in depth, ly in separatemoments, but when I think about
that heartbeat, in that, thatdesire for the cultivation for
(10:04:07):
the reveal, for like, healing,justice, transplant this like
restoration repair, those are,those are big words that are
thrown around quite a bit. ButI, for me, when I think about
the way the ecclesia isdescribed in Scripture, when I
think about moments that haveI've borne witness to where I've
(10:04:31):
saw people having this deeplevel of understanding of who
they are, who created them, whothey belong to, who is their
Lord, and their, their place ofidentity, they're in connection
to Christ. And then there's thispurposeful, fulfilling, and hole
(10:04:57):
connection to other people, thatpeople of God that gather on
mission, sent out to engage theworld, engage the culture, I see
the truest demonstration of thecultivation of Healing Justice.
Yeah. And restoration. Yeah,like that, like I see like, no,
(10:05:19):
no disconnection there of like,Man, I in the same way, I think
of John 15, of God, of Jesus,referring to him being the vine
and speaking to a collectivebody. He wasn't speaking to just
one in saying, You remaining me,but he was speaking to them,
saying, when you remain in me,it's going to be impossible,
actually, for you to not bearfruit. Then in that I see the
(10:05:41):
signs of the kingdom, I seemiracles. And in our English
language, the best attempt, thatthat we even get it in our
mission statement and trying toarticulate what some of those
miracles could look like. Thatwould be our is healing,
justice, restoration. Yeah. Buteven in that of like, man, it
(10:06:01):
feels like such a miss, wherethere may not be a language. A
word to fully describe. Yeah.
This majestic miracle that isalmost unexplainable. I think
that's why so many times in thegospels, you had people going,
would you just come and see,would you just I think about I
(10:06:21):
think, I think John garlandmentioned it earlier in his
episode of Philip, when he wastalking to Nathaniel knotch. He
wasn't he didn't give the annualhey, here's all the reasons.
Here's the my three point, youknow, sermon on the reason why,
like, this is the Christobviously, like, there's also
places in the gospels or in thein in the letters, where there
is this teaching and instructionabout who is Jesus in the
(10:06:48):
message of Christ. But you alsosee so many times when people
were encountering Jesus havingno word truly to describe him,
but just being like, I just allI know is, yeah, this happened,
I think of this Samaritan womanthat went back running through
the town, come and see, come andsee a man who told me everything
about myself. Could this be theChrist? Like?
(10:07:10):
Yeah, yeah. Where people arealmost like, they have no words.
I where there's where they didgive words like, right, but
there's almost this, like, howdo I? How do I describe what
just happened? Like, I just wantyou to experience it. I just
want you to wit and bear witnessto what I, what I've seen with
my eyes what I've experienced,like what my heart has, has just
(10:07:35):
encountered? Yeah,I think that if instead of
saying, will you come to churchwith me, if you could say, I
believe Jesus really is the kingof the universe, and I'm among
the people that bear witness tothat as a fact, not as an idea.
Like, come see, and that youwould invite that person and
(10:07:56):
that the way that you aretogether regardless of where you
meet, or under works withcircumstances or is that the way
that you are together. And theway that you are in response to
Jesus, when you gather, actuallyis evidence of his Lordship and
his will and that, like, that'sthe kind of community where
(10:08:18):
debts are paid as the kind offamily where there's just
beauty, there's like,reconciliation is possible,
like, miracles happen. Yeah. Youknow, there's there's things
that happen. provision is made,like, I mean, we often talk
about, and it's oftentimes itseems with this like, elusive,
(10:08:42):
almost like wistful longing forthe church of x, right, broke
bread together in one another'shomes and shared among them.
This is often spoken to withlike, such like, Oh, right. And
it is that beautiful, it is thatbeautiful, that's deserving of
(10:09:04):
all. But they were operatingunder the idea of Ecclesia as
their primary metaphor for howthey were to operate in the
world. Right. So if we want toget closer to that, it helps for
us to have more of anunderstanding of how they
(10:09:24):
thought of themselves. Right. Sowhich, from what I'm hearing you
say, one of the primary waysthey were thinking of
themselves, if they wereadopting that metaphor of
ecclesia, it was, Okay. We'vegot this common Lord, we're
believing Jesus, Jesus is Lordis the declaration that we're
(10:09:45):
making together as a collectivegroup of people. Yes, he's the
one in authority. He's the onewith the power.
And he's the one with the love,and he's the one with the really
good ideas for how to deal withproblems. Okay. So with wildfire
network, we say wildfire existsto help the dreams of Jesus come
(10:10:05):
true through people, okay. It'sbecause we don't feel like we
have the vision for solvingeconomic disparity in our city,
or for saving everyone fromaddiction or for, you know, like
all the things that are all theproblems. We know that Jesus
does. We trust that Jesus cares.
And we want to try to organizeourselves in such a way, that
(10:10:26):
it's the most efficient way forthose dreams and desires of
Jesus to be activated throughhis people. So Ecclesia there is
a sense in which we talk aboutthe church. Okay, right. And
when we say the church, normallywe're meaning like, all the
people of God, right, everyonewho calls upon the name of the
(10:10:47):
Lord, is what we're meaningwe're meaning the whole body.
Right. But there is a sense,when Jesus said to Peter, you
know, I will build my church.
First of all, he was takingownership. All right. So
yeah, I am the one who's callingthis yes,
(10:11:08):
there is a very real sense inwhich that clay sia is like,
infinitely, like contextualized,like Ecclesia can be very small.
Right? Welfare network owes muchof its structure and innovation
(10:11:29):
to the micro church movement.
Right? Because it's this ideathat like, ecclesia, is more
contingent on the authority ofthe Lord, the authority of the
head of it, right. And then itis on any particular size. Got
it? Yeah. So yeah, or, and thenyeah, it can just, it's very
flexible, like you can talkabout the ecclesia and Rome,
(10:11:51):
which might be like seven oreight expressions of gathering
that irregular, you know, andit's a flexible term that can
talk about the smallestgathering, it can talk about all
of those in the city, that arethe ecclesia. Of of Jesus. Yeah.
And we can talk about everyonein the world that has that.
(10:12:12):
I almost wonder if, if Ecclesiaif we were to try and make an
attempt at language that wouldbe culturally appropriate for us
today. How was one sometimes Iwonder if like community
organizer, organizer, would be asimilar word choice in the in
(10:12:32):
the in the nature of like, whathappens when there's when you
have community organizers whocome in? I mean, it's probably
like, and it's probably astretch in some ways, but you
have community organizers thatcome into community and usually
what they're doing in that case,one they're probably not,
they're actually trying notcoming as an authoritative
figure. They're, they'reactually coming of like, they're
(10:12:53):
trying to empower the voices ofthe community to gather and for
them to band together to addresslike a felt need within their
community that could be Hey,this community organizer comes
in and tries to help the peopleorganize As because there's a
lot of kids that are getting hitby cars and recognize, hey, we
can organize our voices andapproach our city government. We
can get sidewalks here. Yeah.
And so it's like there's a,there's a level of a gathering
(10:13:16):
happening there among peoplewith a group of people that have
a problem in their area orregion that collectively band
together to get that problemfixed. But even that, Paul
short, some, but that it makesme think about that a little
bit.
(10:13:36):
I think that's, that's great. Ithink that what's wonderful is
that, like, as cultures merge,as there are new technologies
that develop, we can borrow newmetaphors. Right? So even the
metaphor of network networksspeaks to, like, with it
(10:13:58):
networking, it has more to dowith the protocol, like, how are
we going to relate to andconnect to each other so that we
can have a mutual strengththat's greater than individual
strength? That's really justcontingent on the nature of our
connection. That's what anetwork is. Right? It's not
like, yeah, its strength isdetermined by the strengthen of
(10:14:19):
its connections. Right? That'show in the network, yeah, it's a
metaphor. Butthe key differentiating piece
that even the both of those fallshort in, is we're saying that
the ecclesia, part of thestrength of it is it has an
identifiable and it Lord, whoactually does have the power
that's keeping them connectedtogether.
(10:14:40):
Yeah. So when you were talkingabout just putting out there
community organizing as aconcept, feel like Christ gang
feel like a gang. It's prettygood. I mean, most gangs are
organized, and they operate inways that probably don't have
the kingdom of God as thecentral concern as to how they
(10:15:01):
do things. But if you thinkabout why they're formed, how
they're formed, how theyoperate, you know, there's some
things and then the, even theclear identity piece that's
associated with, like, when youjoin a gang light, I mean, Jesus
said, like, hey, if anybodywants to come after Me, you
gotta like, join my gang. Youknow what I mean? And there's
(10:15:24):
also a sense of like, you don'tget out of the game. Right.
So there's the element, youknow, it's my desk.
Yeah, I've so let him so Ithink, I think that there's
maybe a yet but there's a realsense in which, like, the
identity piece connected withgangs, the idea that the same
gang, you know, can pop up indifferent places, and all have a
(10:15:48):
shared sense of identity andpurpose. Right. A gang exists
for a purpose. Right now greatpurpose. No, but yeah,
but but it is a purpose. Yeah.
And yeah, so some of the originstories of gangs are even more
towards a version of protectingyour community or certain
assets. So I feel like gang ismaybe you know, Christ gang.
(10:16:11):
Right? Is a is a is a metaphor,that maybe is challenging for
some people to think about. Butin terms of just the fact that
it is a people that are doing athing for a purpose. And then
it's, you know, there's someidentity connect piece might be
a helpful one for us to thinkof, you know, like, what does it
mean to Christ colors? Yeah.
(10:16:34):
What is that? What does it looklike to join his gang? You know,
how do we operate? So so maybethat's a creative stab at like,
Hey, that's a metaphor.
So tailor to which as we wrapup, which uses speak a blessing
to all those that would gatheras the people of God.
(10:16:56):
Yes. without reservation orhesitation, I would say to all
those who call upon the name ofthe Lord Jesus to all those
whose hearts are huddled in theupper room, longing for the
presence and power and lordshipof Jesus to be made known in
(10:17:18):
this world, may you know him andthe power of his resurrection.
May you receive the calling thatHe has for you and for community
(10:17:39):
around you? May you in some veryspecific, very beautiful, very
Hellgate bashing way, say ofyourself. I am anointed to
preach good news to the poor,and bring freedom to the
(10:18:02):
oppressed to give sight to theblind release for the prisoner
and to declare this says theyear of the Lord's favor.
Amen. Thank you. Thank you,Taylor. Hope that was blessing
to you all. This conversationwith Taylor concludes season
three of the return to joypodcast. I am moving and I am
(10:18:25):
preparing to go on sabbatical inthe month of July. So excited
about that. So subscribe to thepodcast and follow us on social
media so you can get word of ourcomeback in August and be right
back with this for season four.
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