April 7, 2022 • 27 mins
In this episode Gabrielle has the pleasure of sitting down with Chandler Merritt for a conversation on vulnerability. Chandler is an administrative genius but more importantly she is an incredible human who has uniquely learned the role vulnerability plays in strengthening and securing her. You don't want to miss the visual picture she paints for how the process of being vulnerable fortifies the truth about our past and helps us move forward with new perspective and healing.
Letter from the host:
Dear Beloveds,
Reflecting on and responding to the faithful and intelligent love of God has been therapeutic to my mind, heart, and body! I vulnerably share because I want you to experience the joy of authentic connection with Jesus, yourself, and others.
Growth happens at the point of connection. Thank you for trusting me with this connection! I'm glad to be with you!
With joy,
Gabrielle Michelle
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Gabrielle Leonard (00:00):
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm
your host, Gabrielle MichelLeonard. Here we're leading
people to cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection, so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing. I'm
(00:25):
really excited for this podcastepisode. Today, we're going to
be talking about vulnerabilityand vulnerabilities relationship
to our ability to experienceintimacy with the Lord, and
connection with other people, aswell as vulnerability being a
key piece, and experiencingstrength and wholeness. And for
(00:46):
this episode, I felt like it wasI had to ask like Chandler to be
a part of this because ChandlerMerritt, she embodies
vulnerability beautifully.
Chandler Marriott is theadministrative shepherd for
wildfire network, and also forreturning to joy. And she is a
key piece into the team. I can'tsee how we function as team
(01:09):
together, and how we do what,what God's called us to do
without her, her role iscrucial. And we need not only
the work that she contributes tothe great to the work that we're
doing, but we need herpersonhood. And so I'm asking
Jan, last chance to come in onthis episode, and do this
(01:31):
episode with me. Because Ibelieve that her simply being
behind the microphone, will helpyou get something about
vulnerability that you haven'tgotten before. Because let's be
honest, vulnerability is a topicthat a lot of people talk about.
And so there can be a questionof man, do you add any more, you
know, noise to thatconversation? And something that
(01:54):
I'm learning right now is? Yeah,because there's a value to what
each of us have to wit have tobear witness to and see about an
80 and say about an experienceand Chandler. Chandler's
perspective on vulnerability isnot just a perspective with
words, but it is embodiment itis her and how she carries
(02:16):
herself and who she is. And soif you're listening to this
episode, I know that you'regoing to be so thoroughly
blessed by this conversation.
I'm blessed because I actuallyusually prefer having a dialogue
or interviewing style podcast.
And so I get to do that todaywith Chandler. And so Chandler,
thank you so much for being onthis podcast episode.
Unknown (02:41):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to get to do
this and very honored that youeven asked me to. So thank you.
Gabrielle Leonard (02:47):
Oh, of course, of course, will.
Chandler, I know that not onlydo you function in that role as
administrative shepherd forwildfire network and return to
joy, but you've you've led aministry before called back
stitch. And backstage was thisbeautiful place where women who
were experiencing depression andanxiety could show up in an
(03:07):
intimate environment and justbe, they could express where
they were at. They couldexperience fellowship, and even
being able to tangibly makesomething with their hands, and
specifically, you guys weremaking blankets. Sometimes
fleeces that I love the aspectof, then afterwards, you guys
would give to the homeless,which is so beautiful, but I
(03:33):
want to know, like, tell startus off by just telling us why
the name backstitch Why did youwhy did you choose that name?
Unknown (03:40):
Yeah, that was something that early on when I
was deciding that I even wantedto do this or that the Lord was
calling me to do this, that Istruggled with for a while
trying to come up with a nameand just kind of searching and
searching in fabulous promptingof the Lord to be like, Look,
what is the strongest stitch?
And so I looked it up and manysewers and craft ladies out
(04:02):
there, they know that it's theback stitch. And so I was
looking into like, Okay, well,what is the back stitch, because
the funny thing is, I bled agroup of people on making
blankets when I didn't know howto even really sell. So had to
look up even what that meant ofwhat is the back stitch. And the
back stitch is basically whereyou sew forward a few stitches,
and then you stitch backwardsand then continue going forward.
(04:26):
So it's this idea of reinforcingus a line that you're selling. I
can continually as you're goingout, and I started that was this
really beautiful image of what Igot to see what healing looks
like, of going forward goingforward. And part of that
healing process is having onethe willingness to be vulnerable
(04:48):
to go back into either relivepast pain or process through
past pain that you can't you,you can't go forward until you
go back and and it is it's ahard thing. But it's it's
something that is very neededand necessary in order to have a
full level of healing. You can'tmove forward unless you
(05:13):
understand what's come likewhat's happened or what's come
before. And so that idea ofgoing back and processing
through things with the Lord andbeing willing to be vulnerable
and to experience pain, again,that's a big part of
vulnerability is not justopening yourself up to hidden or
secret areas of your life. Butit's also like maybe having to
(05:34):
experience pain as well. Yeah.
And so being willing to be ableto go back and to do those
things and seeing the beauty inthat and because it's, that else
is also another thing is thatit's not just a, you're going
back five stitches, it's you'regoing forward, two or three, you
go back one, you go for two, orthree, and you come back one and
(05:55):
yeah, you're always movingforward, and just refortified
those areas that need to befortified, and everything. So
yeah,
Gabrielle Leonard (06:02):
that's really good. Chandler that's really
good. I think that was said sobeautifully. And you said
something that I didn't evenexpect for it to just grabbed me
the way it did. But I, I don'tknow if I've thought about
vulnerability before as notnecessarily just the willingness
to be exposed and to share, tolet in, let people see hard
(06:28):
places. But I that really hit mewhat you said about
vulnerabilities is also thiswillingness to experience pain.
Yeah.
Unknown (06:39):
It's like, if you think about any time that you have to
undergo some form of like,medical procedure or anything
like that, and they have to putyou under and your, your body's
being opened and exposed so thatthey can go in and do the
healing and stuff. But thereality of that is that one, if
there wasn't the wonder that isanesthesia. Like that would be
(07:03):
an incredibly painful processhaving to like live through
surgery, but then evenafterwards of that, like there's
still a level of healing youeven have to do after you've
opened yourself up and you'vebeen stitched back up, like you
have to right kind of recoverfrom that. And that's one of the
things that I like, from what Iunderstand of when you're even
(07:25):
trying to like, under if youknow that you're getting ready
to undergo some form of like,surgical operation, is that,
okay, part of that is that I'mgonna have to be experiencing
pain afterwards. Yeah, or duringdepending upon what procedure or
whatever is it that it is goingon? And I think it is sometimes
easy to just see it, okay, no, Iam going to be vulnerable.
(07:48):
Because it's sometimes that isjust I'm going to be willing to
share something with somebodythat they may not know, that is
a hard thing for me. Andsometimes that can be well
received. And even in timeswhere it is well received. Like
you're still sharing somethingthat is a hard place and it's
something that is hard in is alot of the times like hurtful
and painful.
Gabrielle Leonard (08:08):
Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons why I
love that so much is becauseeven just for myself, like just
naturally, I'll think, okay,yeah, I'm gonna be vulnerable
about this is where I'm, I'm,you know, exposing myself in
this area, and I, I lean more.
So I'm thinking about thecourage it takes to just be
vulnerable. And so I'm heavilythinking, Alright, I can do
this, I can be vulnerable. Ihave courage, that's strength
(08:31):
for me, I have courage. But thenafter the fact, maybe once I've
been hurt, you know, I'm justthinking about in relationships
with people. We're like, Man, Igave so much of my heart. In
that situation I let I like Ilove deeply. They're like, I was
very vulnerable with thatperson, or I was vulnerable with
my team. And I let a piece of meI made a piece of myself
(08:54):
available to them. I did thecourageous thing, right. But
then the backside once there hasbeen pain because maybe I've
been let down. Or maybe that washarder afterwards. Once you've
done it, you realize even ifsome people did amazing job of
responding, there's stillsometimes that like, residual
pain of idea that oh my gosh,and that actually that acces
(09:15):
almost feels very traumatizingsometimes reliving it. Yeah. And
so I don't think I have thoughtas much about that when you make
the decision to be vulnerable.
You're not only making thedecision to step out
courageously, but you're alsomaybe like, you know,
(09:36):
premeditated you're also goingin knowing I'm also right now in
this moment choosing to bewilling to experience pain. And
I think that's I'm hearing thatis benefited from myself, even
if just man, that's the piecethe component I need to add to
is thinking about. I'm making achoice. I'm exposing myself to
(09:57):
the potential experience painagain. Yeah.
Unknown (10:00):
I think that's one of the reasons why lots of people,
they aren't willing to do it.
And because they know that thisisn't, this isn't something that
they either want to experienceor they might not be ready to.
And I think that's also anotherimportant part of that is that
being vulnerable doesn't meanthat you have to share
everything all at once.
(10:22):
Typically, that looks like okay,I'm gonna share this little
specific part because that's allthat I can handle, like, either
opening up to this person aboutor opening up to the Lord about
or like processing that rightnow. Because, I mean, like I
say, and Trek, like Ogres arelike onions, everything has
layers. And, like, the healingprocess is like that, too, I
(10:44):
think is one of those thingsthat I know that they when they
talk about the process forhealing, it feels like this
cyclical nature where it's likeyou're going forward, and then
it feels like you're goingbackwards. And that going
backwards, it's not an anegative going backwards, like
with a backstitch. It's a,you're fortifying an area, like
you're going back to that youcan make that area stronger, so
(11:04):
that you can continue going. Sothat, like, the two pieces of
fabric don't just fall apart.
Yeah. Technically, you can justsew a stitch in one line from
beginning to end straight, itcan stay together. But it's
those back stitches that waslike, that's what gives it the
strength and resilience to beable to, like, withstand a lot
(11:24):
of different things that wouldcause it to weather that you
just wouldn't have if you justif you weren't, if you didn't do
those, like different fortifyingstuff,
Gabrielle Leonard (11:39):
I definitely hear resiliency being there. And
what you're saying, and, and I,I think for sure, the times in
thinking about that intimacy,peace, the vulnerability that
leads to a deeper intimacy, orwe could say, even resiliency in
relationships, in thinking aboutthe relationship with Christ.
Anytime that I've gone back to,to a place of pain with the
(12:02):
Lord, to a place that that hadhurt, and maybe even residually
was like, still hurting, when hewas present with me in that
space, and validated my pain,which, which I love that that
word validate means to give theright to feel pain. And so when
he would validate that space, ofof pain, it only strengthened my
(12:26):
relationship with him. And thenI could continue forward. How
would you say that? Can you canyou give us some examples? Two
ways in which ways that you wewent back to places of pain for
yourself, and how thatstrengthened. Move your your
(12:46):
forward progress?
Unknown (12:48):
Yeah. I guess kind of one of the most recent examples
of that is, me and my husband,we kind of have worked through
some different marital troublesand traumas over the past few
years and during COVID andeverything that it's been
probably two years since we'vebeen in that space. And our
marriage has only grownexponentially since then. But
(13:13):
there's been times where I'verecognized that I thought that I
had fully healed from somethingor that like, oh, this hadn't
bothered me before. And realizethat there actually were deep
levels of healing that I neededto experience in different
areas. One specific areas thatone thing that had been an issue
(13:33):
for us was this. Not feelinglike I could fully express a
need or a want. And that's notan issue anymore. Like that is
something that I feel safedoing. But there's been times
where either out of frustrationor not even frustration, it was
just something that reminded meof a way that our relationship
(13:56):
had been before or that he hadacted to me before in the past
would trigger me in a way that Iwould then revert back it was
almost kind of like a level of Ihave like, almost like PTSD and
was realizing, okay, there'ssomething there that obviously
is not is not fully healed, Ineed to circle back and to
figure out what that is. Andhonestly, I didn't want to
(14:19):
because we had been doing sowell for a long time. And I knew
that opening, opening back thecurtain on those meant that
there was going to be oldfeelings that I had felt during
a really traumatic time in mylife that I wasn't ready to feel
again. Yeah. And it took me awhile before I was ready to
bake. Okay, Lord, I am ready togo back in to look at those and
(14:41):
to be able to process throughbecause part of that was having
to realize that realize that Iwas telling myself there were
reminders that I needed Ryanmyself that like no loops, not
that same person anymore. I'mnot that same person anymore.
We're not in those samesituations like that. Having to
retell my brain reprocessthrough like, I need, I can't
(15:05):
recognize that these thingsaren't true anymore by not going
back and looking at the past tobe able to see the difference
between it. And I could that wasreally hard. Because when if
you're looking back at somethingwhere you've experienced pain
before, even if it has beenyours, like, it's not something
that you can just look back onand be like, Oh, okay, yeah, I
(15:26):
can look at that I fullydetached Yeah. And it's
something that I do, lingers andyou carry with you. And it's
something that I, as I know, aslife continues to go on, like,
whenever there's like a death ofa loved one, or a traumatic
(15:46):
experience, like what I'dexperienced with my husband,
like, there's going to becontinual times where I know
that, okay, there's an areathere that needs to be
fortified, because that's notfully healed. And part of that
means you get having to go backand re experience that loss
again, or re experiencing thattrauma, which thankfully does
get easier. As time goes on, themore that we relive something,
(16:06):
the more that we can see itthrough the lens that isn't ours
and see it through the lens thatis the Lord's, it's good. Which
has helped that to feel morelike a safe space. Yeah. Because
typically, when you go back andlook at things, you can see
where the Lord was in differentareas, like a part of my
testimony that I've sharedbefore, was during elementary
(16:26):
school, I was heavily bulliedfor not being good at sports. I
was in a school where that wasthe big thing. And because I
wasn't my entire grade, likeseverely bullied me for it. And
I always questioned like, Lord,where were you during that time.
And there was a girl that I thatwhen I look back later in life,
(16:47):
that I recognize that the Lord'smercy was not stopping them, but
was sending me a friend that wasable to be able to stand up for
me in ways that I couldn't. Andthere were times in periods
where we weren't friends, wedidn't get along. But during
that time period, she was likeone of the only friends that I
had. And I didn't even make thatcorrelation until like, maybe a
(17:10):
year or two ago. And that's whenI was 10. So it does get easier
every time you go back andrelook at it. But then you also
can see where the Lord was. Andhe helps to not make it rosy and
to make it okay, but you can seeit with clear lenses and see it
through a perspective that's notyours and can see more truth.
(17:30):
That's what was actuallyhappening behind the scenes or
things that you weren't awareof, or how that plays into a
bigger story. Or I think that'sone of the key things with
vulnerability is like what youwere saying is that one
validating that pain, but thenalso, there's some level of
understanding that you have tocome to at some point to have
(17:50):
healing whether thatunderstanding is that it's just
a part of your story or that theLord showing you where he was
understanding not necessarilymean the understanding why it
happened, but understanding thetruth of what was actually going
on in that situation.
Gabrielle Leonard (18:06):
Yeah, yeah. I love that what you're saying
like seeing what you're notseeing just I, I hear a lot and
that you're, you're saying manythings, good things. I think one
of the things that I want topoint out and then have you
expound on is one I'm loving thelanguage of like fortifying like
(18:27):
that word. Every time you say itjust really strikes me of
fortifying areas, even just fromyour past. So you can you can
continue to go forward but instrength, because I think
sometimes we can over emphasizejust moving on going forward,
which I think is where we getin, in our walk with Christ in
(18:48):
the Christian faith where youcan just where it's just
memorized true, right? Andagain, not not saying here that
memorizing Scripture, tellingyourself the truth is bad. Those
are good things, but sometimesas a as a crutch to not go there
and be vulnerable with the Lordnot go there and be vulnerable
other people or even withourselves and admit we've had
(19:09):
pain admit there's there's somefractiousness within our soul.
We just stick a bandaid ofsaying, no, no, no, but I know
I'm a child of God. No, no, no,but I but I know that the Lord
is with me. And we're we'reusing truth statements and truth
to bandaid woundings of thepast. So we don't have to go
there. Instead of going therewith the Lord. And said though,
(19:33):
that those truths, those thingsthat are true can actually be
fortified, which is not a bandaid. I hear I hear two separate
things going on there. Like no,you're talking about
fortification, you're talkingabout like, how am I something
that that can't be torn downeasily? Versus Yeah, just
(19:55):
efforts to patch up
Unknown (19:58):
an image that comes to my brain a lot. I don't know the
term for it. But I know that inJapanese pottery, there's a
style of pottery where, when apiece of pottery breaks, they
piece it back together, butwhere that crack was its line,
and it's basically mended ingold. So you can see where that
crack is. But it's this thing ofbeauty. And so I typically like
(20:18):
whenever I think of thosethings, where I'm going in and
fortifying an area, you don'tfortify an area that you're
strong, and you fortify an areathat either is paying for that
your weekend, I imagined beingthis piece of pottery that's
been broken, but like the Lord'sgoing in and fortifying it with
cement, like something thatcan't be broken, and that is an
area of strength, because it'snot, it's an area that I know
(20:41):
that when I return back to Ihave to rely on the Lord. And
that when I'm in that space, anygood that comes out of that
situation is not of Me, it'sobviously the Lord. So I'm
actually stronger in thoseareas, because I'm more fully
dependent upon the Lord or I'mmore fully dependent upon his
perspective and an area becauseI know that I can't see it
(21:02):
clearly or speak to it clearly.
And so it is another thing thatI typically say a lot too is
that something that I strugglewith is that my heart and my
head, don't believe the samething. And kind of what you're
saying of those band aids oflike, this is truth. And my head
knows that, but my heartdoesn't. And sometimes it does
take wrestling with the Lord, tobe able to get your heart to
(21:23):
understand that. And that'ssomething that I know that I
struggle with, too is that withallowing yourself to be
vulnerable with the Lord and tobe able to process through
things, because that's alsosomething to it's you're not
just being vulnerable forvulnerability sake, yeah, you're
being vulnerable, so that youcan process through to get to
the other side. And I feel likethat's either something that's
(21:46):
not done, you're just you'revulnerable, and you open up but
then you don't actually moveforward. Or you're not actually
like, you're not allowing theLord to be able to speak into a
situation or allowing a personthat you're opening up to, to be
able to speak into a situation.
And it does take some wrestlingin. That's the part that I don't
(22:11):
like, I hate conflict, not justconflict with people, apparently
I hate conflict with the Lord,because it's hard for me to be
able to say, Lord, I don'tunderstand and I'm a little
angry with you. It was somethingthat this happened in. Being
vulnerable is something that'sscary. And it's something that I
know that the Lord sees and heunderstands, and he knows the
(22:33):
strength that it takes to bevulnerable. And just like the
Lord creates a safe space for usto be vulnerable. I think it's
also important for us to createa safe space for other people to
be vulnerable with. Because ofthat safe space is ruined.
There's, you're not going towant to return back to it. The
only way that you can return Ikeis knowing that this is a safe
(22:55):
space that I know that I've comeback to before and healings
happened or I've come back tobefore and there's been
fortification or have come backto before and there's been
understanding it's that kind ofthat idea that like pain, but
also joyful things are beinglike entwined together. And that
(23:17):
is an important part of it.
Because it's it's something thathelps us center you and ground
you have like the Okay, I'vebeen here before. I know what's
at the other end of that. AndI've come out on the other end
of that better not maybe notfully healed or fully arrived.
Thankfully, the Lord doesn'texpect us to ever fully arrive.
But to know that like we cancome out on the other side of
(23:38):
this stronger than we werebefore and we may come back
again but we know what thatspace looks like and it's not as
scary of a place as weremembered me.
Gabrielle Leonard (23:47):
Yeah, man that's good Chandler that's
really good. I I smiled big asas but halfway through you
talking sounds like oh my gosh,I so hear in that a changing of
the narrative like now I could Ican almost like see this visual
of every single one of thoseplaces where there was this
backstitch happening forfortification, a new story
(24:09):
began. Like those spaces, wereones places that if you would
have looked back on those littlemarkers would have been stories
of just pain stories of justtrauma stories of just loss.
Every one of those spots. werepainful, because something you
lost something. Yeah. Whetherthat was you lost something
(24:30):
about yourself. You lostsomething and you lost the
relationship you lost. Yeah,there was just lost there.
Right. And I hear in every timefortification was allowed, that
something was actually beingrecovered. Something was
actually being added to I hearthe opportunity for a new
(24:53):
storyline for a narrativechange. So now when you look
back at those moments, you'renot just thinking about what was
Last, but you're thinking about,I think I was hearing you say,
looking back and knowing.
Alright, I've been here before.
And I know the other times thatI've been here, this has been
this has been a safe space. Andother times when I've been here,
(25:13):
healings happen, the other timeswhen I've been here, I've, I've
recovered, I've come away with agreater value for myself, when
other times when I've been here,I've come away with a greater
respect for and trust in whatGod's doing. And I've come away
with a greater have actually agreater trust in other people
(25:35):
that are in my life and notless, you know, I just hear some
beautiful narrative changeopportunities.
Unknown (25:42):
Yeah, and that's one of the things even just thinking of
that, like the whole idea ofsomething being restored, like
the word stories in that like,yeah, and not a word person. So
like, Don't come at me if that'snot like the true actual
definition of what that means.
But I think that's a cool thing.
Like something is beingrestored. You're there is a new
story that's being written inthat.
Gabrielle Leonard (26:01):
Yeah, man, that's beautiful. Chandler This
was amazing. And I cannotimagine anyone not being blessed
by this time that we've hadtogether, you are incredible.
And this is it's so clear thatthis is something that the
Lord's deeply done in your life.
This is not something that youjust talk a good game about.
This is something that you'velived, and you continue to live.
And so I thank you for that.
(26:22):
Because you just living thisout, is blessing other people I
know it does. For us, everysingle time you walk into a
room, you you give permissionfor people to show up, like as
themselves. And in that space ofshowing up. You also You were
also giving permission for theLord to be great in that space,
(26:44):
and for him to heal, restore anddo beautiful things within
people. And so thank you so muchfor that. And I thank you so
much for being on this episode.
Unknown (26:54):
Thank you for having me. And thank you for saying
that any good that's come out ofthat is only glory can be given
to God because that's not mynatural inclination. So thank
you. Hey, you
Gabrielle Leonard (27:03):
spoke beautifully. Thank you so much.
If you're hearing this message,you've listened to the entire
episode. And for that I amdeeply grateful. I hope this
episode resonated with you andif it did help us out by sharing
this episode, and leaving areview on Apple podcasts, and
Spotify. Most importantly, reachout to let me know how you're
(27:27):
engaging with this episode, andwhat topics you'd like to see
covered in the future. You canconnect with us on social media,
or get in touch with me directlyat Gabrielle at return to
joy.com to share your heart.
I'll see you in two weeks for anew episode.
Welcome to the return to joy podcast. I'm
your host, Gabrielle MichelLeonard. Here we're leading
people to cultivate joy throughstorytelling. We hope listening
will reveal pathways tounlocking the healing power of
connection, so that you can seeyour relationships and the world
around you transformed fromfractured into flourishing. I'm
(00:25):
really excited for this podcastepisode. Today, we're going to
be talking about vulnerabilityand vulnerabilities relationship
to our ability to experienceintimacy with the Lord, and
connection with other people, aswell as vulnerability being a
key piece, and experiencingstrength and wholeness. And for
(00:46):
this episode, I felt like it wasI had to ask like Chandler to be
a part of this because ChandlerMerritt, she embodies
vulnerability beautifully.
Chandler Marriott is theadministrative shepherd for
wildfire network, and also forreturning to joy. And she is a
key piece into the team. I can'tsee how we function as team
(01:09):
together, and how we do what,what God's called us to do
without her, her role iscrucial. And we need not only
the work that she contributes tothe great to the work that we're
doing, but we need herpersonhood. And so I'm asking
Jan, last chance to come in onthis episode, and do this
(01:31):
episode with me. Because Ibelieve that her simply being
behind the microphone, will helpyou get something about
vulnerability that you haven'tgotten before. Because let's be
honest, vulnerability is a topicthat a lot of people talk about.
And so there can be a questionof man, do you add any more, you
know, noise to thatconversation? And something that
(01:54):
I'm learning right now is? Yeah,because there's a value to what
each of us have to wit have tobear witness to and see about an
80 and say about an experienceand Chandler. Chandler's
perspective on vulnerability isnot just a perspective with
words, but it is embodiment itis her and how she carries
(02:16):
herself and who she is. And soif you're listening to this
episode, I know that you'regoing to be so thoroughly
blessed by this conversation.
I'm blessed because I actuallyusually prefer having a dialogue
or interviewing style podcast.
And so I get to do that todaywith Chandler. And so Chandler,
thank you so much for being onthis podcast episode.
Unknown (02:41):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to get to do
this and very honored that youeven asked me to. So thank you.
Gabrielle Leonard (02:47):
Oh, of course, of course, will.
Chandler, I know that not onlydo you function in that role as
administrative shepherd forwildfire network and return to
joy, but you've you've led aministry before called back
stitch. And backstage was thisbeautiful place where women who
were experiencing depression andanxiety could show up in an
(03:07):
intimate environment and justbe, they could express where
they were at. They couldexperience fellowship, and even
being able to tangibly makesomething with their hands, and
specifically, you guys weremaking blankets. Sometimes
fleeces that I love the aspectof, then afterwards, you guys
would give to the homeless,which is so beautiful, but I
(03:33):
want to know, like, tell startus off by just telling us why
the name backstitch Why did youwhy did you choose that name?
Unknown (03:40):
Yeah, that was something that early on when I
was deciding that I even wantedto do this or that the Lord was
calling me to do this, that Istruggled with for a while
trying to come up with a nameand just kind of searching and
searching in fabulous promptingof the Lord to be like, Look,
what is the strongest stitch?
And so I looked it up and manysewers and craft ladies out
(04:02):
there, they know that it's theback stitch. And so I was
looking into like, Okay, well,what is the back stitch, because
the funny thing is, I bled agroup of people on making
blankets when I didn't know howto even really sell. So had to
look up even what that meant ofwhat is the back stitch. And the
back stitch is basically whereyou sew forward a few stitches,
and then you stitch backwardsand then continue going forward.
(04:26):
So it's this idea of reinforcingus a line that you're selling. I
can continually as you're goingout, and I started that was this
really beautiful image of what Igot to see what healing looks
like, of going forward goingforward. And part of that
healing process is having onethe willingness to be vulnerable
(04:48):
to go back into either relivepast pain or process through
past pain that you can't you,you can't go forward until you
go back and and it is it's ahard thing. But it's it's
something that is very neededand necessary in order to have a
full level of healing. You can'tmove forward unless you
(05:13):
understand what's come likewhat's happened or what's come
before. And so that idea ofgoing back and processing
through things with the Lord andbeing willing to be vulnerable
and to experience pain, again,that's a big part of
vulnerability is not justopening yourself up to hidden or
secret areas of your life. Butit's also like maybe having to
(05:34):
experience pain as well. Yeah.
And so being willing to be ableto go back and to do those
things and seeing the beauty inthat and because it's, that else
is also another thing is thatit's not just a, you're going
back five stitches, it's you'regoing forward, two or three, you
go back one, you go for two, orthree, and you come back one and
(05:55):
yeah, you're always movingforward, and just refortified
those areas that need to befortified, and everything. So
yeah,
Gabrielle Leonard (06:02):
that's really good. Chandler that's really
good. I think that was said sobeautifully. And you said
something that I didn't evenexpect for it to just grabbed me
the way it did. But I, I don'tknow if I've thought about
vulnerability before as notnecessarily just the willingness
to be exposed and to share, tolet in, let people see hard
(06:28):
places. But I that really hit mewhat you said about
vulnerabilities is also thiswillingness to experience pain.
Yeah.
Unknown (06:39):
It's like, if you think about any time that you have to
undergo some form of like,medical procedure or anything
like that, and they have to putyou under and your, your body's
being opened and exposed so thatthey can go in and do the
healing and stuff. But thereality of that is that one, if
there wasn't the wonder that isanesthesia. Like that would be
(07:03):
an incredibly painful processhaving to like live through
surgery, but then evenafterwards of that, like there's
still a level of healing youeven have to do after you've
opened yourself up and you'vebeen stitched back up, like you
have to right kind of recoverfrom that. And that's one of the
things that I like, from what Iunderstand of when you're even
(07:25):
trying to like, under if youknow that you're getting ready
to undergo some form of like,surgical operation, is that,
okay, part of that is that I'mgonna have to be experiencing
pain afterwards. Yeah, or duringdepending upon what procedure or
whatever is it that it is goingon? And I think it is sometimes
easy to just see it, okay, no, Iam going to be vulnerable.
(07:48):
Because it's sometimes that isjust I'm going to be willing to
share something with somebodythat they may not know, that is
a hard thing for me. Andsometimes that can be well
received. And even in timeswhere it is well received. Like
you're still sharing somethingthat is a hard place and it's
something that is hard in is alot of the times like hurtful
and painful.
Gabrielle Leonard (08:08):
Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons why I
love that so much is becauseeven just for myself, like just
naturally, I'll think, okay,yeah, I'm gonna be vulnerable
about this is where I'm, I'm,you know, exposing myself in
this area, and I, I lean more.
So I'm thinking about thecourage it takes to just be
vulnerable. And so I'm heavilythinking, Alright, I can do
this, I can be vulnerable. Ihave courage, that's strength
(08:31):
for me, I have courage. But thenafter the fact, maybe once I've
been hurt, you know, I'm justthinking about in relationships
with people. We're like, Man, Igave so much of my heart. In
that situation I let I like Ilove deeply. They're like, I was
very vulnerable with thatperson, or I was vulnerable with
my team. And I let a piece of meI made a piece of myself
(08:54):
available to them. I did thecourageous thing, right. But
then the backside once there hasbeen pain because maybe I've
been let down. Or maybe that washarder afterwards. Once you've
done it, you realize even ifsome people did amazing job of
responding, there's stillsometimes that like, residual
pain of idea that oh my gosh,and that actually that acces
(09:15):
almost feels very traumatizingsometimes reliving it. Yeah. And
so I don't think I have thoughtas much about that when you make
the decision to be vulnerable.
You're not only making thedecision to step out
courageously, but you're alsomaybe like, you know,
(09:36):
premeditated you're also goingin knowing I'm also right now in
this moment choosing to bewilling to experience pain. And
I think that's I'm hearing thatis benefited from myself, even
if just man, that's the piecethe component I need to add to
is thinking about. I'm making achoice. I'm exposing myself to
(09:57):
the potential experience painagain. Yeah.
Unknown (10:00):
I think that's one of the reasons why lots of people,
they aren't willing to do it.
And because they know that thisisn't, this isn't something that
they either want to experienceor they might not be ready to.
And I think that's also anotherimportant part of that is that
being vulnerable doesn't meanthat you have to share
everything all at once.
(10:22):
Typically, that looks like okay,I'm gonna share this little
specific part because that's allthat I can handle, like, either
opening up to this person aboutor opening up to the Lord about
or like processing that rightnow. Because, I mean, like I
say, and Trek, like Ogres arelike onions, everything has
layers. And, like, the healingprocess is like that, too, I
(10:44):
think is one of those thingsthat I know that they when they
talk about the process forhealing, it feels like this
cyclical nature where it's likeyou're going forward, and then
it feels like you're goingbackwards. And that going
backwards, it's not an anegative going backwards, like
with a backstitch. It's a,you're fortifying an area, like
you're going back to that youcan make that area stronger, so
(11:04):
that you can continue going. Sothat, like, the two pieces of
fabric don't just fall apart.
Yeah. Technically, you can justsew a stitch in one line from
beginning to end straight, itcan stay together. But it's
those back stitches that waslike, that's what gives it the
strength and resilience to beable to, like, withstand a lot
(11:24):
of different things that wouldcause it to weather that you
just wouldn't have if you justif you weren't, if you didn't do
those, like different fortifyingstuff,
Gabrielle Leonard (11:39):
I definitely hear resiliency being there. And
what you're saying, and, and I,I think for sure, the times in
thinking about that intimacy,peace, the vulnerability that
leads to a deeper intimacy, orwe could say, even resiliency in
relationships, in thinking aboutthe relationship with Christ.
Anytime that I've gone back to,to a place of pain with the
(12:02):
Lord, to a place that that hadhurt, and maybe even residually
was like, still hurting, when hewas present with me in that
space, and validated my pain,which, which I love that that
word validate means to give theright to feel pain. And so when
he would validate that space, ofof pain, it only strengthened my
(12:26):
relationship with him. And thenI could continue forward. How
would you say that? Can you canyou give us some examples? Two
ways in which ways that you wewent back to places of pain for
yourself, and how thatstrengthened. Move your your
(12:46):
forward progress?
Unknown (12:48):
Yeah. I guess kind of one of the most recent examples
of that is, me and my husband,we kind of have worked through
some different marital troublesand traumas over the past few
years and during COVID andeverything that it's been
probably two years since we'vebeen in that space. And our
marriage has only grownexponentially since then. But
(13:13):
there's been times where I'verecognized that I thought that I
had fully healed from somethingor that like, oh, this hadn't
bothered me before. And realizethat there actually were deep
levels of healing that I neededto experience in different
areas. One specific areas thatone thing that had been an issue
(13:33):
for us was this. Not feelinglike I could fully express a
need or a want. And that's notan issue anymore. Like that is
something that I feel safedoing. But there's been times
where either out of frustrationor not even frustration, it was
just something that reminded meof a way that our relationship
(13:56):
had been before or that he hadacted to me before in the past
would trigger me in a way that Iwould then revert back it was
almost kind of like a level of Ihave like, almost like PTSD and
was realizing, okay, there'ssomething there that obviously
is not is not fully healed, Ineed to circle back and to
figure out what that is. Andhonestly, I didn't want to
(14:19):
because we had been doing sowell for a long time. And I knew
that opening, opening back thecurtain on those meant that
there was going to be oldfeelings that I had felt during
a really traumatic time in mylife that I wasn't ready to feel
again. Yeah. And it took me awhile before I was ready to
bake. Okay, Lord, I am ready togo back in to look at those and
(14:41):
to be able to process throughbecause part of that was having
to realize that realize that Iwas telling myself there were
reminders that I needed Ryanmyself that like no loops, not
that same person anymore. I'mnot that same person anymore.
We're not in those samesituations like that. Having to
retell my brain reprocessthrough like, I need, I can't
(15:05):
recognize that these thingsaren't true anymore by not going
back and looking at the past tobe able to see the difference
between it. And I could that wasreally hard. Because when if
you're looking back at somethingwhere you've experienced pain
before, even if it has beenyours, like, it's not something
that you can just look back onand be like, Oh, okay, yeah, I
(15:26):
can look at that I fullydetached Yeah. And it's
something that I do, lingers andyou carry with you. And it's
something that I, as I know, aslife continues to go on, like,
whenever there's like a death ofa loved one, or a traumatic
(15:46):
experience, like what I'dexperienced with my husband,
like, there's going to becontinual times where I know
that, okay, there's an areathere that needs to be
fortified, because that's notfully healed. And part of that
means you get having to go backand re experience that loss
again, or re experiencing thattrauma, which thankfully does
get easier. As time goes on, themore that we relive something,
(16:06):
the more that we can see itthrough the lens that isn't ours
and see it through the lens thatis the Lord's, it's good. Which
has helped that to feel morelike a safe space. Yeah. Because
typically, when you go back andlook at things, you can see
where the Lord was in differentareas, like a part of my
testimony that I've sharedbefore, was during elementary
(16:26):
school, I was heavily bulliedfor not being good at sports. I
was in a school where that wasthe big thing. And because I
wasn't my entire grade, likeseverely bullied me for it. And
I always questioned like, Lord,where were you during that time.
And there was a girl that I thatwhen I look back later in life,
(16:47):
that I recognize that the Lord'smercy was not stopping them, but
was sending me a friend that wasable to be able to stand up for
me in ways that I couldn't. Andthere were times in periods
where we weren't friends, wedidn't get along. But during
that time period, she was likeone of the only friends that I
had. And I didn't even make thatcorrelation until like, maybe a
(17:10):
year or two ago. And that's whenI was 10. So it does get easier
every time you go back andrelook at it. But then you also
can see where the Lord was. Andhe helps to not make it rosy and
to make it okay, but you can seeit with clear lenses and see it
through a perspective that's notyours and can see more truth.
(17:30):
That's what was actuallyhappening behind the scenes or
things that you weren't awareof, or how that plays into a
bigger story. Or I think that'sone of the key things with
vulnerability is like what youwere saying is that one
validating that pain, but thenalso, there's some level of
understanding that you have tocome to at some point to have
(17:50):
healing whether thatunderstanding is that it's just
a part of your story or that theLord showing you where he was
understanding not necessarilymean the understanding why it
happened, but understanding thetruth of what was actually going
on in that situation.
Gabrielle Leonard (18:06):
Yeah, yeah. I love that what you're saying
like seeing what you're notseeing just I, I hear a lot and
that you're, you're saying manythings, good things. I think one
of the things that I want topoint out and then have you
expound on is one I'm loving thelanguage of like fortifying like
(18:27):
that word. Every time you say itjust really strikes me of
fortifying areas, even just fromyour past. So you can you can
continue to go forward but instrength, because I think
sometimes we can over emphasizejust moving on going forward,
which I think is where we getin, in our walk with Christ in
(18:48):
the Christian faith where youcan just where it's just
memorized true, right? Andagain, not not saying here that
memorizing Scripture, tellingyourself the truth is bad. Those
are good things, but sometimesas a as a crutch to not go there
and be vulnerable with the Lordnot go there and be vulnerable
other people or even withourselves and admit we've had
(19:09):
pain admit there's there's somefractiousness within our soul.
We just stick a bandaid ofsaying, no, no, no, but I know
I'm a child of God. No, no, no,but I but I know that the Lord
is with me. And we're we'reusing truth statements and truth
to bandaid woundings of thepast. So we don't have to go
there. Instead of going therewith the Lord. And said though,
(19:33):
that those truths, those thingsthat are true can actually be
fortified, which is not a bandaid. I hear I hear two separate
things going on there. Like no,you're talking about
fortification, you're talkingabout like, how am I something
that that can't be torn downeasily? Versus Yeah, just
(19:55):
efforts to patch up
Unknown (19:58):
an image that comes to my brain a lot. I don't know the
term for it. But I know that inJapanese pottery, there's a
style of pottery where, when apiece of pottery breaks, they
piece it back together, butwhere that crack was its line,
and it's basically mended ingold. So you can see where that
crack is. But it's this thing ofbeauty. And so I typically like
(20:18):
whenever I think of thosethings, where I'm going in and
fortifying an area, you don'tfortify an area that you're
strong, and you fortify an areathat either is paying for that
your weekend, I imagined beingthis piece of pottery that's
been broken, but like the Lord'sgoing in and fortifying it with
cement, like something thatcan't be broken, and that is an
area of strength, because it'snot, it's an area that I know
(20:41):
that when I return back to Ihave to rely on the Lord. And
that when I'm in that space, anygood that comes out of that
situation is not of Me, it'sobviously the Lord. So I'm
actually stronger in thoseareas, because I'm more fully
dependent upon the Lord or I'mmore fully dependent upon his
perspective and an area becauseI know that I can't see it
(21:02):
clearly or speak to it clearly.
And so it is another thing thatI typically say a lot too is
that something that I strugglewith is that my heart and my
head, don't believe the samething. And kind of what you're
saying of those band aids oflike, this is truth. And my head
knows that, but my heartdoesn't. And sometimes it does
take wrestling with the Lord, tobe able to get your heart to
(21:23):
understand that. And that'ssomething that I know that I
struggle with, too is that withallowing yourself to be
vulnerable with the Lord and tobe able to process through
things, because that's alsosomething to it's you're not
just being vulnerable forvulnerability sake, yeah, you're
being vulnerable, so that youcan process through to get to
the other side. And I feel likethat's either something that's
(21:46):
not done, you're just you'revulnerable, and you open up but
then you don't actually moveforward. Or you're not actually
like, you're not allowing theLord to be able to speak into a
situation or allowing a personthat you're opening up to, to be
able to speak into a situation.
And it does take some wrestlingin. That's the part that I don't
(22:11):
like, I hate conflict, not justconflict with people, apparently
I hate conflict with the Lord,because it's hard for me to be
able to say, Lord, I don'tunderstand and I'm a little
angry with you. It was somethingthat this happened in. Being
vulnerable is something that'sscary. And it's something that I
know that the Lord sees and heunderstands, and he knows the
(22:33):
strength that it takes to bevulnerable. And just like the
Lord creates a safe space for usto be vulnerable. I think it's
also important for us to createa safe space for other people to
be vulnerable with. Because ofthat safe space is ruined.
There's, you're not going towant to return back to it. The
only way that you can return Ikeis knowing that this is a safe
(22:55):
space that I know that I've comeback to before and healings
happened or I've come back tobefore and there's been
fortification or have come backto before and there's been
understanding it's that kind ofthat idea that like pain, but
also joyful things are beinglike entwined together. And that
(23:17):
is an important part of it.
Because it's it's something thathelps us center you and ground
you have like the Okay, I'vebeen here before. I know what's
at the other end of that. AndI've come out on the other end
of that better not maybe notfully healed or fully arrived.
Thankfully, the Lord doesn'texpect us to ever fully arrive.
But to know that like we cancome out on the other side of
(23:38):
this stronger than we werebefore and we may come back
again but we know what thatspace looks like and it's not as
scary of a place as weremembered me.
Gabrielle Leonard (23:47):
Yeah, man that's good Chandler that's
really good. I I smiled big asas but halfway through you
talking sounds like oh my gosh,I so hear in that a changing of
the narrative like now I could Ican almost like see this visual
of every single one of thoseplaces where there was this
backstitch happening forfortification, a new story
(24:09):
began. Like those spaces, wereones places that if you would
have looked back on those littlemarkers would have been stories
of just pain stories of justtrauma stories of just loss.
Every one of those spots. werepainful, because something you
lost something. Yeah. Whetherthat was you lost something
(24:30):
about yourself. You lostsomething and you lost the
relationship you lost. Yeah,there was just lost there.
Right. And I hear in every timefortification was allowed, that
something was actually beingrecovered. Something was
actually being added to I hearthe opportunity for a new
(24:53):
storyline for a narrativechange. So now when you look
back at those moments, you'renot just thinking about what was
Last, but you're thinking about,I think I was hearing you say,
looking back and knowing.
Alright, I've been here before.
And I know the other times thatI've been here, this has been
this has been a safe space. Andother times when I've been here,
(25:13):
healings happen, the other timeswhen I've been here, I've, I've
recovered, I've come away with agreater value for myself, when
other times when I've been here,I've come away with a greater
respect for and trust in whatGod's doing. And I've come away
with a greater have actually agreater trust in other people
(25:35):
that are in my life and notless, you know, I just hear some
beautiful narrative changeopportunities.
Unknown (25:42):
Yeah, and that's one of the things even just thinking of
that, like the whole idea ofsomething being restored, like
the word stories in that like,yeah, and not a word person. So
like, Don't come at me if that'snot like the true actual
definition of what that means.
But I think that's a cool thing.
Like something is beingrestored. You're there is a new
story that's being written inthat.
Gabrielle Leonard (26:01):
Yeah, man, that's beautiful. Chandler This
was amazing. And I cannotimagine anyone not being blessed
by this time that we've hadtogether, you are incredible.
And this is it's so clear thatthis is something that the
Lord's deeply done in your life.
This is not something that youjust talk a good game about.
This is something that you'velived, and you continue to live.
And so I thank you for that.
(26:22):
Because you just living thisout, is blessing other people I
know it does. For us, everysingle time you walk into a
room, you you give permissionfor people to show up, like as
themselves. And in that space ofshowing up. You also You were
also giving permission for theLord to be great in that space,
(26:44):
and for him to heal, restore anddo beautiful things within
people. And so thank you so muchfor that. And I thank you so
much for being on this episode.
Unknown (26:54):
Thank you for having me. And thank you for saying
that any good that's come out ofthat is only glory can be given
to God because that's not mynatural inclination. So thank
you. Hey, you
Gabrielle Leonard (27:03):
spoke beautifully. Thank you so much.
If you're hearing this message,you've listened to the entire
episode. And for that I amdeeply grateful. I hope this
episode resonated with you andif it did help us out by sharing
this episode, and leaving areview on Apple podcasts, and
Spotify. Most importantly, reachout to let me know how you're
(27:27):
engaging with this episode, andwhat topics you'd like to see
covered in the future. You canconnect with us on social media,
or get in touch with me directlyat Gabrielle at return to
joy.com to share your heart.
I'll see you in two weeks for anew episode.
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