January 9, 2024 • 29 mins
Have you heard of the "Tiger Seller Profile"? It's a concept and framework developed and used by Rodney Umrah during his years in sales, account management and enablement at IBM, Microsoft, NetSuite and in his current role as Head of Global Revenue, Partner and Customer Enablement.
In this episode Rodney explains how to elevate your sales team's performance as we dissect the elements that transform good sellers into great ones, and how tailored enablement programs can act as a catalyst for widespread excellence. For example:
- Identifying the skills, tactics and techniques of a Tiger Seller
- Working with HR and recruiting teams to elevate the hiring process
- Identifying skills gaps and enablement priorities based on Tiger Sellers
- Aligning sales process stages to the strengths of Tiger Sellers
Rodney Umrah has 26 years’ experience working in the global technology industry (software / cloud) at IBM, Microsoft, Oracle NetSuite, Xactly and Forcepoint. He has a wealth of experience in technical, sales, revenue, partner and customer enablement leadership roles.
Rodney’s vision is to deliver enablement services globally that accelerate revenue growth and improve customer retention and satisfaction.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Revenue Enablement Society
Stories from the Trenches, whereenablement practitioners share
their real-world experiences.
Get the scoop on what'shappening inside revenue
enablement teams across theglobal RES community.
Each segment of stories fromthe trenches shares the good,
the bad and the ugly practicesof corporate revenue enablement
(00:23):
initiatives.
Learn what worked, what didn'twork and how obstacles were
eliminated by enablement teamsand go-to-market leadership.
Sit back, grab a cold one andjoin host Paul Butterfield,
founder of Revenue FlywheelGroup, for casual conversations
about the wide and variedprofession of revenue enablement
, where there's never aone-size-fits-all solution.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode
of the Revenue EnablementSociety Podcast, stories in the
Trenches the only podcast as faras we know.
That's all by practitioners forpractitioners, where we have
the opportunity to bringtogether people from all over
the world that are doing amazingthings in enablement, talk
about the innovations they'remaking, the discoveries they're
(01:09):
making.
Sometimes we even talk aboutthings that maybe didn't go so
well, but there's alwayssomething to be learned.
So I'm excited to bring you aguest that he and I have been
talking about having him on fora while and Rodney.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Thank you for having me, Paul.
It's my delight to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
So Rodney for those of you who don't know him is the
head of Global Revenue, partnerand Customer Enablement.
That's a mouthful, but I lovethat they have a thinking about
that whole ecosystem.
That's as it should be at ForcePoint.
I don't know a lot about ForcePoint, so maybe, if you don't
mind, tell everybody a littlebit about you, a little bit
about what you do.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Paul, I'm going to date myself now, but this is my
27th year in the globaltechnology space.
I had the opportunity of beinghired right out of school by IBM
, then over to Microsoft Oracleexactly then.
Currently at Force Point and,for those who are not aware, so
Force Point provides anall-in-one native cloud platform
(02:06):
.
Really that simplifies security.
So wherever you are on theplanet, whether you're using
your phone, whether on yourcorporate network or cloud
applications, internalapplications, we essentially do
data security everywhere you are.
So it is a delight again to beon the call today.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
All right, well, welcome, before we get to your
topic, which I'm excited forbecause I'm going to actually
let you introduce it, becauseit's a very unique concept.
But before we do that, nobodygets away without having the
Jimmy Kimmel Challenge.
All right, so you're ready.
All right.
So Jimmy Kimmel retires nextyear and through your
(02:47):
connections you are offered hisshow.
You can have anybody you wanton for your first guest.
Who would you bring on, and whydid you pick them?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
I would bring on.
I even see the setting,literally it's on the beach.
Or I tell the who the person.
It's on the beach somewhere,literally just having a casual
conversation, and his name isNelson Mandela.
I would love the opportunity tohear his journey all the way
from childhood.
(03:17):
We know that he wasincarcerated for like 26, 27
years.
Then he became the president ofthe country.
What a journey.
So lots of lessons there that Iwould just love to soak it in.
Nelson Mandela is that person.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I would watch that because I agree with you the
adversity that he overcame, thetrue sense of who he was and his
core values and what matteredthat could not have been easy to
hold on to when everyone aroundhim was trying to keep him down
.
So, yeah, that would be anamazing interview.
(03:54):
All right, so let's get into it.
Tell them about what we'regonna talk about today.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
All right.
Well, we had a good chuckleprevious to the, to the
broadcast, yeah, but it's thetitle of.
What we're talking about todayis what I call the Tiger cellar
profile, and again, I'm datingmyself here in old Paul, because
the word tiger it came.
It actually came from a songfrom a group called survivor.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
I have the tiger Right, so I remember it, I play
in a band and and yeah, yeah, upuntil I mean for the last
couple of years, that was partof our set list.
No, I know it very, very well.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, some people out there, Paul, may be wondering
what are we talking about?
Fair enough, yes.
So the tiger cellar profile I Icame across it with experiences
from others.
Again, I didn't necessarilycome up with a thought, but in
working with others Over timeover the last decade or so, one
of the things that we haveidentified clearly is For us to
(04:56):
have an effective enablementprogram in place.
That will, of course, enhanceproductivity, etc.
It is always a good idea To seekout those individuals who are
doing excellent, like everysingle year, paul, no matter
where you put them.
You put them in territory a,territory B, all the way you
(05:17):
could put them on the moon.
Somehow they figure out how tobe successful.
You just have people like that,and so, for the last three
organizations that have been apart of, one of the things that
I've always done is to spend thetime with those top 10% of
sellers to understand what arethe skills, the tactics, the
(05:38):
techniques, what are they doing?
What is it that they're doingthat is enabling them to be
successful?
Right, so that's what thistiger cellar profile is all
about an understanding what thatlooks like, that that set of
attributes or set of skills orCompetencies, and really and
really using that in a profoundway within the organization.
(05:58):
I don't know we're gonna getdeeper in it.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yes, yeah, let's, let's start doing that, because
in my experience, everyorganization I've been in either
as a seller, sales leader orenabler you have those tiger,
tiger reps.
Right, I have tiger reps, yep.
The challenge often is how doyou put that in a box and Be
(06:20):
able to deliver it in a helpfulway To those that don't have
that?
So I'm, I, let's just get rightinto that.
No, are you doing that?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
and again.
Paul, this is not one of thesescientific things that it takes
a year and with all kind of no,it really is boiling it down.
It really is a just like.
What you're having here is aconversation with those top, and
I literally go through everysingle one and I take the time
because I know the output andthe outcome, and so it throw the
(06:54):
conversation.
What you're doing isunderstanding from those
individuals what goes on in theday, in a life of those top
sellers, and you surprised someof them, some of them, some of
the attributes that I've heard,some of them are teachable.
If you will, okay or not, letme give you an example At the
(07:14):
top of the list that we'll havefound out over time, and this is
in three differentorganizations.
No ball I've heard the termgrit.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Go get it done Gets thrown around a lot.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Like hey, man, that's tough to teach.
It comes within right,intrinsic behavior that says
whatever it takes to win.
That's what I'm going to do, ofcourse, as long as it's ethical
right.
So that's at the top of thelist.
There are other attributes liketerritory management when you
get your territory, how to pivotthat territory, looking at A
(07:50):
accounts, b accounts.
This goes on, but the pointbeing, we really capture that,
paul, as best as we possibly can, and then we put a quote
unquote box around it, right,and we use that information, not
only in enablement because Iknow you want to get there with
regards to enablement but, as wewere talking outside of the
broadcast, one of the thingsthat we actually do when we
(08:11):
encapsulate that and you'd besurprised how similar it is
depending on which company yougo but once you encapsulate
those attributes or those skillsand competences, what we can do
then is go to HR, go to therecruiting organization and say
here's the profile of thesuccessful individuals here at
(08:34):
this company right, forcepoint,or whichever company you've been
a part of, right.
So in your recruitment efforts,you may want to look for
individuals that actually looklike this and check this out,
paul, one of the gaps that I'vefound over time and again.
You mentioned the term makingmistakes, man, I've made lots
and lots of mistakes over time,but you learn, you learn as you
(08:56):
go along, right, and so one ofthe things that the good thing
is that you can actually seekout those candidates.
But the other thing is to helpour leaders now to be able to.
If there's a candidate sittingright in front of us, how can
you ascertain if this particularcandidate can actually display
or they have been displayingthese attributes in their
(09:18):
day-to-day roles, wherever theyare coming from, that you can
say, ah, this is a person thatwill fit, and again, not
necessarily 100%, right, clearly, because we live in the real
world.
But they are able to at least,at a very minimum, 60, 70% of
those skill sets, and you canlook at teaching the rest for
sure.
And we haven't even gotten toenablement as yet, right, that's
(09:41):
just literally at the HR level.
And then, when you get toenablement, now this is where
you literally can reimagine youronboarding program so that you
are actually developing theskill sets of the Tiger Cellar
profile, the TSP, just for short, tsp.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Is that trademarked?
Tsp, tsp, it is, it is.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
But, yeah, that's how you can really do that and I've
seen the impact, of course,many other things considering
around it, and I've seen realtremendous results in doing this
and, of course, there are otherareas that you can go down,
which is like continuing, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
So let's talk a little bit more about that step
where you're involving the HR orrecruiting team, because
recruiting doesn't always reportto HR.
How are you delivering theminformation in a way that they
can use it?
Here's what I mean.
As good as they are at theirjobs, they've never been well,
(10:43):
probably have never been sellers, and so you're talking to them
about a work environment, andit's very different.
I think you'd agree thatthere's really no other job
that's like sales in a number ofways.
So how have you found successin helping them internalize that
enough to use it in theirrecruiting?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Thanks for the question, and what I'm finding
over time, paul, is that whatthey do is not very far from
sales, is it?
In other words, they are beinga recruiter and I'm not a
recruiter, but I'm just thinkingthrough their eyes.
They're actually selling thecompany at the same time, right
To the Canada, of course,ascertaining if the candidate is
(11:23):
a right fit or not.
So it is not very far off.
And what I do is I spendquality time with recruiters in
explaining these key areas,skill set, areas of the top 10,
the TSP, right.
So I spend quality time doingthat and, of course, you'd be
surprised at the kinds ofquestions that they get and like
(11:44):
oh, I didn't know that.
And what is interesting, Paul,is that some organizations, they
literally have a test that theycould do with the candidates
and what they have actually doneand I think I did this as one
or two of my organizations isthey actually this is more from
(12:06):
a scientific standpoint, if youwill they actually looked at the
TSP and then looked at theirresults from the data of those
individuals internally and theyare seeing the mapping that says
ah, that is right, because thisperson who is always 120%, 130%
, they're exhibiting XYZ fromtheir competency model and it
(12:29):
maps with the TSP.
I've literally seen that, right.
So that's your question.
Yes, spending the right timewith recruiters will certainly
help and again, nothing isperfect, right, so they won't
get it 100% of the time or getpretty close.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
All right, so back to onboarding.
How are you using TSP in youronboarding?
Speaker 3 (12:51):
All right.
So, once you have the profiletogether, one of the things that
I've discovered over time and Ipause here, paul, because I'm
like, oh, I've failed it as manytimes and so we have learned
over time, right, and what we'velearned over time is when
you're developing the onboardingprogram.
(13:11):
What we tend to do quite oftenis we try to teach them
everything all at once.
What happens is maybe 5% or 10%of it stays.
Here's the approach that wehave taken alongside the TSP is,
what we've done is to look atthe sale cycle and we've said
(13:33):
what is it that we are expectinga seller to actually do?
Day one?
Not day one, but as they got it, you get the point.
What we have done is we havesaid, okay, let's segment the
onboarding program into two.
One is let's focus on gettingthem ramped in the job that they
have to do today once they getin, which is, say, one, two,
(13:53):
three, if you will Then, oncethey start, because their job
really is to prospect and togenerate new pipe, that's what
their job is as they come in.
All right, good, if that is thecase, then let's ensure that
they have the TSP-related skillsto be able to generate pipeline
.
Great, then, what we do.
So that's the first half of theonboarding program, then the
(14:14):
second half of the onboardingprogram, and this is probably
say six, seven weeks out.
We get them together again andthen, when we follow up with the
sale stages four, five, six,depending on your sale stages
the latter part of the salecycle, again focusing on
developing the skills for theTSP.
At the latter part, things likecontracting and negotiating all
(14:37):
of those pieces what we aredoing is we are combining the
just-in-time enablement withdeveloping the skill sets that
they would need at thatparticular point in time that
maps to the TSP.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I'm curious and I would imagine maybe even some
listeners wondering this rightnow.
In my experience, you will comeacross very successful sellers.
They fit the description andthe profile that you're
referring to, but they have verydifferent personalities, maybe
even very different backgroundsand sets of experiences.
(15:11):
I'm just really interested inyou know, and if you've got all
these different folks onboardingthey're all coming from
different places how do you helpmake that something they can
digest and use and understand?
Love?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
the question.
One of the things that weconcentrate on quite a bit, Paul
, is the truth is never try tobe someone else, Never Great.
So a great seller in generalwill always take their
personality to the job right.
So these are skills that we'retalking about.
(15:47):
Again, there are some thingsthat you can't teach.
I mentioned it early like great, no, I totally agree,
Especially in sales.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
At some point you have to be willing I mean, it's
a tough job.
You have to be willing to getpunched in the face nine times
out of 10 in your interactionswith people and still keep
coming Right 100% Right.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
So let's use examples of passion.
Your passion, how you exhibityour passion, is very different
than how I would, but it's thesame passion at the end of the
day.
It's the same thing with theTSB, right?
So it's not that we're tryingto change people's personality.
No, we're saying you take yourauthentic self to the job.
Just know that these are someskills that the top 10% of reps
(16:26):
here at this company theyexhibit day in, day out,
consistently in order to, inorder to succeed.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Okay, so someone's completed the second phase of
your your, your ramping.
It sounds like it's reallyramping as much as onboarding in
that second phase.
Okay, does TSB have a place inthe ongoing professional
development, or what some peoplelike to call everboarding?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Oh, it certainly does .
Yes, Let me tell you what Imean by that.
So, very often, what you can doand this is not the only way,
there's so many different ways,but what you can do to help with
crafting what your continuousenablement strategy is is to
understand the skill sets of thepeople that you have existing
Competence Competency model weoften refer to out there, right?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah, I think everybody was things to money
with that.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Oh, very much so, and so what you can see is, once
you've done your mapping, so tospeak, or your your
understanding of the skill setsthat exist off from your
existing people, you canpotentially see the gaps that
exist out there in the field.
Now, one of the cautions,because I feel that this poll
that's why I mentioned this veryquickly One of the cautions I
(17:40):
would have for all those who arelistening.
Take it from you.
You have failed quite a coupleof times on this.
We try to boil the ocean.
We try to focus on 10 areas.
We can't do 10.
We will never have enoughresources to focus on 10, but we
can focus on two or three.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, I've read different research over the
years that says three is the max, that not even as individuals,
even as an organization, at thecorporate level, trying to do
more than three things, youwon't do them well.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
It doesn't work.
It doesn't work.
And you, you read that piece,live that piece.
I'm sure you have to.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, yes, oh, I I have.
I have been down that road andhad to back it up myself a few
times, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
I'm just going to continue.
So please, out there, don't,don't, don't follow our foolish
advice.
But, anyway, the point beingyou can focus on one, two or
three that you can see thatthere's a gap that exists in
your existing individualsinternally, and especially if
they map to One of the skillsthat's our two horse free on the
TSP.
So you can literally focus onthose areas because you know by
(18:51):
results.
You know by results.
These are the skills that,again, the top 10% they execute
on a regular basis.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I have a question about those Tiger, those TSP's.
In my experience there in factI would say this has been, you
know, several differentcompanies that there are TSP's
that also tend to be lone wolves, yes, and they're actually not
(19:20):
doing things the way thatperhaps they're even being asked
to do them.
Not that they're doing anythingunethical, but they're just
yeah, they just do it their ownway and they really don't care
who cares and they're way overquoted so they get left alone.
We could debate another timewhether that's a good thing or a
bad thing, but have you runinto that and how do you account
(19:40):
for that when trying to teachother people?
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Of course, you will always have lone wolves
everywhere right Now.
What is interesting is what wehave found over.
Well, I have found in myexperience over time you will
have individuals like that forsure, but what I'm finding is
that that's not the majority ofindividuals that are out there.
Okay, generally you find lonewolves and this is just a broad
(20:07):
statement.
I could be totally off base butjust generally you find them.
They have the natural knack oracumen to figure out how to kind
of just get it done right.
Yeah, but not everybody isnecessarily some people.
They literally spend the timeto develop those skills.
Now let's look.
Maybe Tiger Woods is TigerWoods a good example, maybe.
(20:27):
So Tiger Woods is naturallygood at golfing, but you realize
that he spends, he develops ontop of those skills to be the
Tiger Woods that he is.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
And he's coachable.
He recognizes that there isalways more to learn.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, Thank you very much, and that's great practices
and practices, and practices.
And so what I'm finding is,again, as I said, you'll always
have a small percentage that's alone wolf, and you put that in
context.
But the rest of the team,generally they are people who
absolutely want to succeed andthey are very much aware back to
your point that they need theadditional development to be
(21:06):
able to get there like a TigerWoods, as you indicated.
So they have some humility,absolutely absolutely.
And the other thing too iswilling to share.
What I found is that the lonewolves man you're trying to pry
the information out, right, andby the time you get to the 15th
mark, they're like I'm going toan ex-con, right, they're not
(21:26):
willing that much to spend therequired time with you, but the
rest they will spend additionaltime, just because they see the
greater good of the organization.
They see, but of course this isimportant to them, right,
because they're sharing bestpractices, but they can also
envision the fact that thiscould help someone else just
like them in the organizationthat they're willing to share.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That's interesting observation, but I think you're
right.
I think most people do want tocome to the work, to their job,
and approach it in a meaningfulway, and they generally want to
see not only themselves butothers around them successful.
Yeah, I think I've seen that aswell.
All right, so what else shouldwe know about TSBs?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
There is another level to TSB, paul.
I'm not sure we're going tohave time, but just quickly.
There's another level.
So what I just described islevel 100.
And I've seen the results ofthat.
Essentially at what oneorganization reducing the time
to first deal by like 50%.
I've seen that and witnessedthat and the good thing is that
(22:29):
I had a CRO who supported thenotion, the philosophy and, just
like Rodney, go do what youneed to do with the team, which
is great.
But the next level that I'membarking on, paul, and I'm in
the process of doing this that'swhy I'm actually sharing this
is now you can actually get downto the sales cycle level and
(22:53):
then now you can see within thecontext of the sales cycle.
So the TSB level 100, I'm justcalling it like this, paul, but
the TSB level 100 is broadskills and competencies, tactic,
techniques that you would do.
Then, when you bring it to thecontext of the sales cycle, then
you can say let's use theexample you have five sales
stages in your sales cycle.
(23:13):
Let's use that.
Ok, if you are one of the toppercent of reps and I'm actually
going through this right now,paul what do you do effectively
in sale stage one.
What do you do in sales stagetwo?
Again, paul, we know that salesis not a science.
It's a science and an art.
We understand that.
But just in general, how do youexecute?
(23:35):
What does your day look like?
Sales stage one, sales stagetwo, all the way down to five?
We actually document that.
Because guess what we want tosay, especially if you're in and
it's not only in thisenvironment, but especially if
you're in a transactional typebusiness where there needs to be
a framework and there needs tobe volume and velocity, you need
(23:56):
to have a more prescriptivemethod of really taking
opportunities and buyers throughthe buying cycle.
But it works otherwise too.
But the point being, that's thelevel 200, if you will know
that we are documentingspecifically what they do at
each stage to be able to winthese opportunities.
(24:17):
One other thing I'll mentionvery quickly, because I know
we're running out of time.
The other thing that I want tomention quickly we're good.
We're good for it.
Yes, one of the other thingsthat I want to mention there,
too, is not only what theirsales activities are, but with
whom.
Here's what I mean, paul.
There's a cross-functional teamthat supports a seller through
(24:39):
their sales cycle and, of course, to the buyer, the buyer cycle.
There's a cross-functional team.
Yes, you have partners, youhave marketing, you have revenue
operation that list goes onlegal finance, etc.
So the question then is foreach one of these top sellers,
who do you engage at what stage?
So let me use the example Salesstage two.
(25:00):
Who are your go-to people tohelp you with ensuring that your
opportunities are passingthrough a sales stage two to
transition to sales stage three?
Is it SES?
Is it just you?
Is it with partners?
So you get the not only theseller themselves, but you get a
wider cross-view of who are theresources that those
(25:25):
individuals actually leverage.
So that's kind of the level 200that I'm going through right
now, and maybe I'll return andtell you what the result is.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I was just thinking the same thing.
Right, let's get back togetherwhen you got level 200 results
to talk about and you'll be onyour way to talking about level
300.
It'll be great.
So, all right, Glad to share.
This has been a funconversation.
Before I let you go, I want youto have a chance to drop some
(25:56):
knowledge on our audience thatmay or may not be enablement
related.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I have some knowledge here.
Paul, Be careful what you'reassuming.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
And again, it may or may have nothing to do with
enablement, sure, but if youwere given the gift of time,
travel back and allowed to coachsome younger version of
yourself, right, maybe right outof uni?
Right, some younger version?
But the only limitation is youcan only talk about one topic.
(26:26):
What would you choose to teachyourself?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
The statement comes to mind, paul, vividly never
waste a good crisis.
Interesting.
I remember the very place thatI was when that statement was
made to me by my boss.
At the time I was at NiagaraSchool, never forget it.
(26:52):
I was sitting in my boss'soffice and we were discussing
opportunities, et cetera, andthere was a particular deal that
was going south and not goingwell.
I think we eventually lost thedeal, but my boss made the
statement, paul, to me and itlanded Never waste a good crisis
.
In other words, a lot of theexperiences that we have in life
(27:15):
, what I'm finding as I getolder.
That's why I have these grayhairs here, paul as I grow older
.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Your hair didn't fall out because of enablement
frustration Potential.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
What I'm finding is that we learn a lot more, it
seems, from our failures thanour successes.
We take our successes forgranted, but when we fail, if we
take the time and we learnthose lessons, then we won't be
as timid as sometimes we are.
To just try new things, I tellmy team all the time today, not
(27:49):
necessarily, no.
That's why your question isvalid.
Don't box yourself in.
Be creative.
Just blow your head off.
Essentially right, and thenwe'll figure out how we get
things out.
Because every time I see as ateam we get together to put
together a particular initiative.
No one person's idea is thebest one.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Oh, that's so true.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
It's all about the combination and the derivative
of others.
It's powerful.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I knew that, paul.
I wish I knew that because Iwouldn't have been that timid as
I am and I'm trying to dodifferent now, but, man, I wish
I knew that from before I reallydid.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
None of us as smart as all of us and, trust me, I
did not understand that earlierin my life, my career as well.
I had to kind of figure thatout over time.
But that is great advice.
Thank you so much for that.
And thank you, rodney, weappreciate your time, we
appreciate your energy, justamazing energy you've brought to
(28:50):
this.
So thank you for that and thankyou to all of you who have
invested a half hour of yourtime with Rodney and I.
We appreciate you.
You're who we do this for andwe'll see you in two weeks with
another guest and another topic.
Take care.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Thanks for joining this episode of Stories from the
Trenches For morerevenue-enablement resources.
Be sure to join the RevenueEnablement Society at
resocietyglobal.
That's resocietyglobal.
Welcome to the Revenue Enablement Society
Stories from the Trenches, whereenablement practitioners share
their real-world experiences.
Get the scoop on what'shappening inside revenue
enablement teams across theglobal RES community.
Each segment of stories fromthe trenches shares the good,
the bad and the ugly practicesof corporate revenue enablement
(00:23):
initiatives.
Learn what worked, what didn'twork and how obstacles were
eliminated by enablement teamsand go-to-market leadership.
Sit back, grab a cold one andjoin host Paul Butterfield,
founder of Revenue FlywheelGroup, for casual conversations
about the wide and variedprofession of revenue enablement
, where there's never aone-size-fits-all solution.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode
of the Revenue EnablementSociety Podcast, stories in the
Trenches the only podcast as faras we know.
That's all by practitioners forpractitioners, where we have
the opportunity to bringtogether people from all over
the world that are doing amazingthings in enablement, talk
about the innovations they'remaking, the discoveries they're
(01:09):
making.
Sometimes we even talk aboutthings that maybe didn't go so
well, but there's alwayssomething to be learned.
So I'm excited to bring you aguest that he and I have been
talking about having him on fora while and Rodney.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Thank you for having me, Paul.
It's my delight to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
So Rodney for those of you who don't know him is the
head of Global Revenue, partnerand Customer Enablement.
That's a mouthful, but I lovethat they have a thinking about
that whole ecosystem.
That's as it should be at ForcePoint.
I don't know a lot about ForcePoint, so maybe, if you don't
mind, tell everybody a littlebit about you, a little bit
about what you do.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Paul, I'm going to date myself now, but this is my
27th year in the globaltechnology space.
I had the opportunity of beinghired right out of school by IBM
, then over to Microsoft Oracleexactly then.
Currently at Force Point and,for those who are not aware, so
Force Point provides anall-in-one native cloud platform
(02:06):
.
Really that simplifies security.
So wherever you are on theplanet, whether you're using
your phone, whether on yourcorporate network or cloud
applications, internalapplications, we essentially do
data security everywhere you are.
So it is a delight again to beon the call today.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
All right, well, welcome, before we get to your
topic, which I'm excited forbecause I'm going to actually
let you introduce it, becauseit's a very unique concept.
But before we do that, nobodygets away without having the
Jimmy Kimmel Challenge.
All right, so you're ready.
All right.
So Jimmy Kimmel retires nextyear and through your
(02:47):
connections you are offered hisshow.
You can have anybody you wanton for your first guest.
Who would you bring on, and whydid you pick them?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
I would bring on.
I even see the setting,literally it's on the beach.
Or I tell the who the person.
It's on the beach somewhere,literally just having a casual
conversation, and his name isNelson Mandela.
I would love the opportunity tohear his journey all the way
from childhood.
(03:17):
We know that he wasincarcerated for like 26, 27
years.
Then he became the president ofthe country.
What a journey.
So lots of lessons there that Iwould just love to soak it in.
Nelson Mandela is that person.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I would watch that because I agree with you the
adversity that he overcame, thetrue sense of who he was and his
core values and what matteredthat could not have been easy to
hold on to when everyone aroundhim was trying to keep him down
.
So, yeah, that would be anamazing interview.
(03:54):
All right, so let's get into it.
Tell them about what we'regonna talk about today.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
All right.
Well, we had a good chuckleprevious to the, to the
broadcast, yeah, but it's thetitle of.
What we're talking about todayis what I call the Tiger cellar
profile, and again, I'm datingmyself here in old Paul, because
the word tiger it came.
It actually came from a songfrom a group called survivor.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
I have the tiger Right, so I remember it, I play
in a band and and yeah, yeah, upuntil I mean for the last
couple of years, that was partof our set list.
No, I know it very, very well.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, some people out there, Paul, may be wondering
what are we talking about?
Fair enough, yes.
So the tiger cellar profile I Icame across it with experiences
from others.
Again, I didn't necessarilycome up with a thought, but in
working with others Over timeover the last decade or so, one
of the things that we haveidentified clearly is For us to
(04:56):
have an effective enablementprogram in place.
That will, of course, enhanceproductivity, etc.
It is always a good idea To seekout those individuals who are
doing excellent, like everysingle year, paul, no matter
where you put them.
You put them in territory a,territory B, all the way you
(05:17):
could put them on the moon.
Somehow they figure out how tobe successful.
You just have people like that,and so, for the last three
organizations that have been apart of, one of the things that
I've always done is to spend thetime with those top 10% of
sellers to understand what arethe skills, the tactics, the
(05:38):
techniques, what are they doing?
What is it that they're doingthat is enabling them to be
successful?
Right, so that's what thistiger cellar profile is all
about an understanding what thatlooks like, that that set of
attributes or set of skills orCompetencies, and really and
really using that in a profoundway within the organization.
(05:58):
I don't know we're gonna getdeeper in it.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yes, yeah, let's, let's start doing that, because
in my experience, everyorganization I've been in either
as a seller, sales leader orenabler you have those tiger,
tiger reps.
Right, I have tiger reps, yep.
The challenge often is how doyou put that in a box and Be
(06:20):
able to deliver it in a helpfulway To those that don't have
that?
So I'm, I, let's just get rightinto that.
No, are you doing that?
Speaker 3 (06:31):
and again.
Paul, this is not one of thesescientific things that it takes
a year and with all kind of no,it really is boiling it down.
It really is a just like.
What you're having here is aconversation with those top, and
I literally go through everysingle one and I take the time
because I know the output andthe outcome, and so it throw the
(06:54):
conversation.
What you're doing isunderstanding from those
individuals what goes on in theday, in a life of those top
sellers, and you surprised someof them, some of them, some of
the attributes that I've heard,some of them are teachable.
If you will, okay or not, letme give you an example At the
(07:14):
top of the list that we'll havefound out over time, and this is
in three differentorganizations.
No ball I've heard the termgrit.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Go get it done Gets thrown around a lot.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Like hey, man, that's tough to teach.
It comes within right,intrinsic behavior that says
whatever it takes to win.
That's what I'm going to do, ofcourse, as long as it's ethical
right.
So that's at the top of thelist.
There are other attributes liketerritory management when you
get your territory, how to pivotthat territory, looking at A
(07:50):
accounts, b accounts.
This goes on, but the pointbeing, we really capture that,
paul, as best as we possibly can, and then we put a quote
unquote box around it, right,and we use that information, not
only in enablement because Iknow you want to get there with
regards to enablement but, as wewere talking outside of the
broadcast, one of the thingsthat we actually do when we
(08:11):
encapsulate that and you'd besurprised how similar it is
depending on which company yougo but once you encapsulate
those attributes or those skillsand competences, what we can do
then is go to HR, go to therecruiting organization and say
here's the profile of thesuccessful individuals here at
(08:34):
this company right, forcepoint,or whichever company you've been
a part of, right.
So in your recruitment efforts,you may want to look for
individuals that actually looklike this and check this out,
paul, one of the gaps that I'vefound over time and again.
You mentioned the term makingmistakes, man, I've made lots
and lots of mistakes over time,but you learn, you learn as you
(08:56):
go along, right, and so one ofthe things that the good thing
is that you can actually seekout those candidates.
But the other thing is to helpour leaders now to be able to.
If there's a candidate sittingright in front of us, how can
you ascertain if this particularcandidate can actually display
or they have been displayingthese attributes in their
(09:18):
day-to-day roles, wherever theyare coming from, that you can
say, ah, this is a person thatwill fit, and again, not
necessarily 100%, right, clearly, because we live in the real
world.
But they are able to at least,at a very minimum, 60, 70% of
those skill sets, and you canlook at teaching the rest for
sure.
And we haven't even gotten toenablement as yet, right, that's
(09:41):
just literally at the HR level.
And then, when you get toenablement, now this is where
you literally can reimagine youronboarding program so that you
are actually developing theskill sets of the Tiger Cellar
profile, the TSP, just for short, tsp.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Is that trademarked?
Tsp, tsp, it is, it is.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
But, yeah, that's how you can really do that and I've
seen the impact, of course,many other things considering
around it, and I've seen realtremendous results in doing this
and, of course, there are otherareas that you can go down,
which is like continuing, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
So let's talk a little bit more about that step
where you're involving the HR orrecruiting team, because
recruiting doesn't always reportto HR.
How are you delivering theminformation in a way that they
can use it?
Here's what I mean.
As good as they are at theirjobs, they've never been well,
(10:43):
probably have never been sellers, and so you're talking to them
about a work environment, andit's very different.
I think you'd agree thatthere's really no other job
that's like sales in a number ofways.
So how have you found successin helping them internalize that
enough to use it in theirrecruiting?
Speaker 3 (11:03):
Thanks for the question, and what I'm finding
over time, paul, is that whatthey do is not very far from
sales, is it?
In other words, they are beinga recruiter and I'm not a
recruiter, but I'm just thinkingthrough their eyes.
They're actually selling thecompany at the same time, right
To the Canada, of course,ascertaining if the candidate is
(11:23):
a right fit or not.
So it is not very far off.
And what I do is I spendquality time with recruiters in
explaining these key areas,skill set, areas of the top 10,
the TSP, right.
So I spend quality time doingthat and, of course, you'd be
surprised at the kinds ofquestions that they get and like
(11:44):
oh, I didn't know that.
And what is interesting, Paul,is that some organizations, they
literally have a test that theycould do with the candidates
and what they have actually doneand I think I did this as one
or two of my organizations isthey actually this is more from
(12:06):
a scientific standpoint, if youwill they actually looked at the
TSP and then looked at theirresults from the data of those
individuals internally and theyare seeing the mapping that says
ah, that is right, because thisperson who is always 120%, 130%
, they're exhibiting XYZ fromtheir competency model and it
(12:29):
maps with the TSP.
I've literally seen that, right.
So that's your question.
Yes, spending the right timewith recruiters will certainly
help and again, nothing isperfect, right, so they won't
get it 100% of the time or getpretty close.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
All right, so back to onboarding.
How are you using TSP in youronboarding?
Speaker 3 (12:51):
All right.
So, once you have the profiletogether, one of the things that
I've discovered over time and Ipause here, paul, because I'm
like, oh, I've failed it as manytimes and so we have learned
over time, right, and what we'velearned over time is when
you're developing the onboardingprogram.
(13:11):
What we tend to do quite oftenis we try to teach them
everything all at once.
What happens is maybe 5% or 10%of it stays.
Here's the approach that wehave taken alongside the TSP is,
what we've done is to look atthe sale cycle and we've said
(13:33):
what is it that we are expectinga seller to actually do?
Day one?
Not day one, but as they got it, you get the point.
What we have done is we havesaid, okay, let's segment the
onboarding program into two.
One is let's focus on gettingthem ramped in the job that they
have to do today once they getin, which is, say, one, two,
(13:53):
three, if you will Then, oncethey start, because their job
really is to prospect and togenerate new pipe, that's what
their job is as they come in.
All right, good, if that is thecase, then let's ensure that
they have the TSP-related skillsto be able to generate pipeline
.
Great, then, what we do.
So that's the first half of theonboarding program, then the
(14:14):
second half of the onboardingprogram, and this is probably
say six, seven weeks out.
We get them together again andthen, when we follow up with the
sale stages four, five, six,depending on your sale stages
the latter part of the salecycle, again focusing on
developing the skills for theTSP.
At the latter part, things likecontracting and negotiating all
(14:37):
of those pieces what we aredoing is we are combining the
just-in-time enablement withdeveloping the skill sets that
they would need at thatparticular point in time that
maps to the TSP.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
I'm curious and I would imagine maybe even some
listeners wondering this rightnow.
In my experience, you will comeacross very successful sellers.
They fit the description andthe profile that you're
referring to, but they have verydifferent personalities, maybe
even very different backgroundsand sets of experiences.
(15:11):
I'm just really interested inyou know, and if you've got all
these different folks onboardingthey're all coming from
different places how do you helpmake that something they can
digest and use and understand?
Love?
Speaker 3 (15:26):
the question.
One of the things that weconcentrate on quite a bit, Paul
, is the truth is never try tobe someone else, Never Great.
So a great seller in generalwill always take their
personality to the job right.
So these are skills that we'retalking about.
(15:47):
Again, there are some thingsthat you can't teach.
I mentioned it early like great, no, I totally agree,
Especially in sales.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
At some point you have to be willing I mean, it's
a tough job.
You have to be willing to getpunched in the face nine times
out of 10 in your interactionswith people and still keep
coming Right 100% Right.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
So let's use examples of passion.
Your passion, how you exhibityour passion, is very different
than how I would, but it's thesame passion at the end of the
day.
It's the same thing with theTSB, right?
So it's not that we're tryingto change people's personality.
No, we're saying you take yourauthentic self to the job.
Just know that these are someskills that the top 10% of reps
(16:26):
here at this company theyexhibit day in, day out,
consistently in order to, inorder to succeed.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Okay, so someone's completed the second phase of
your your, your ramping.
It sounds like it's reallyramping as much as onboarding in
that second phase.
Okay, does TSB have a place inthe ongoing professional
development, or what some peoplelike to call everboarding?
Speaker 3 (16:51):
Oh, it certainly does .
Yes, Let me tell you what Imean by that.
So, very often, what you can doand this is not the only way,
there's so many different ways,but what you can do to help with
crafting what your continuousenablement strategy is is to
understand the skill sets of thepeople that you have existing
Competence Competency model weoften refer to out there, right?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah, I think everybody was things to money
with that.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Oh, very much so, and so what you can see is, once
you've done your mapping, so tospeak, or your your
understanding of the skill setsthat exist off from your
existing people, you canpotentially see the gaps that
exist out there in the field.
Now, one of the cautions,because I feel that this poll
that's why I mentioned this veryquickly One of the cautions I
(17:40):
would have for all those who arelistening.
Take it from you.
You have failed quite a coupleof times on this.
We try to boil the ocean.
We try to focus on 10 areas.
We can't do 10.
We will never have enoughresources to focus on 10, but we
can focus on two or three.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, I've read different research over the
years that says three is the max, that not even as individuals,
even as an organization, at thecorporate level, trying to do
more than three things, youwon't do them well.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
It doesn't work.
It doesn't work.
And you, you read that piece,live that piece.
I'm sure you have to.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, yes, oh, I I have.
I have been down that road andhad to back it up myself a few
times, absolutely.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
I'm just going to continue.
So please, out there, don't,don't, don't follow our foolish
advice.
But, anyway, the point beingyou can focus on one, two or
three that you can see thatthere's a gap that exists in
your existing individualsinternally, and especially if
they map to One of the skillsthat's our two horse free on the
TSP.
So you can literally focus onthose areas because you know by
(18:51):
results.
You know by results.
These are the skills that,again, the top 10% they execute
on a regular basis.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I have a question about those Tiger, those TSP's.
In my experience there in factI would say this has been, you
know, several differentcompanies that there are TSP's
that also tend to be lone wolves, yes, and they're actually not
(19:20):
doing things the way thatperhaps they're even being asked
to do them.
Not that they're doing anythingunethical, but they're just
yeah, they just do it their ownway and they really don't care
who cares and they're way overquoted so they get left alone.
We could debate another timewhether that's a good thing or a
bad thing, but have you runinto that and how do you account
(19:40):
for that when trying to teachother people?
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Of course, you will always have lone wolves
everywhere right Now.
What is interesting is what wehave found over.
Well, I have found in myexperience over time you will
have individuals like that forsure, but what I'm finding is
that that's not the majority ofindividuals that are out there.
Okay, generally you find lonewolves and this is just a broad
(20:07):
statement.
I could be totally off base butjust generally you find them.
They have the natural knack oracumen to figure out how to kind
of just get it done right.
Yeah, but not everybody isnecessarily some people.
They literally spend the timeto develop those skills.
Now let's look.
Maybe Tiger Woods is TigerWoods a good example, maybe.
(20:27):
So Tiger Woods is naturallygood at golfing, but you realize
that he spends, he develops ontop of those skills to be the
Tiger Woods that he is.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
And he's coachable.
He recognizes that there isalways more to learn.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Yeah, Thank you very much, and that's great practices
and practices, and practices.
And so what I'm finding is,again, as I said, you'll always
have a small percentage that's alone wolf, and you put that in
context.
But the rest of the team,generally they are people who
absolutely want to succeed andthey are very much aware back to
your point that they need theadditional development to be
(21:06):
able to get there like a TigerWoods, as you indicated.
So they have some humility,absolutely absolutely.
And the other thing too iswilling to share.
What I found is that the lonewolves man you're trying to pry
the information out, right, andby the time you get to the 15th
mark, they're like I'm going toan ex-con, right, they're not
(21:26):
willing that much to spend therequired time with you, but the
rest they will spend additionaltime, just because they see the
greater good of the organization.
They see, but of course this isimportant to them, right,
because they're sharing bestpractices, but they can also
envision the fact that thiscould help someone else just
like them in the organizationthat they're willing to share.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
That's interesting observation, but I think you're
right.
I think most people do want tocome to the work, to their job,
and approach it in a meaningfulway, and they generally want to
see not only themselves butothers around them successful.
Yeah, I think I've seen that aswell.
All right, so what else shouldwe know about TSBs?
Speaker 3 (22:09):
There is another level to TSB, paul.
I'm not sure we're going tohave time, but just quickly.
There's another level.
So what I just described islevel 100.
And I've seen the results ofthat.
Essentially at what oneorganization reducing the time
to first deal by like 50%.
I've seen that and witnessedthat and the good thing is that
(22:29):
I had a CRO who supported thenotion, the philosophy and, just
like Rodney, go do what youneed to do with the team, which
is great.
But the next level that I'membarking on, paul, and I'm in
the process of doing this that'swhy I'm actually sharing this
is now you can actually get downto the sales cycle level and
(22:53):
then now you can see within thecontext of the sales cycle.
So the TSB level 100, I'm justcalling it like this, paul, but
the TSB level 100 is broadskills and competencies, tactic,
techniques that you would do.
Then, when you bring it to thecontext of the sales cycle, then
you can say let's use theexample you have five sales
stages in your sales cycle.
(23:13):
Let's use that.
Ok, if you are one of the toppercent of reps and I'm actually
going through this right now,paul what do you do effectively
in sale stage one.
What do you do in sales stagetwo?
Again, paul, we know that salesis not a science.
It's a science and an art.
We understand that.
But just in general, how do youexecute?
(23:35):
What does your day look like?
Sales stage one, sales stagetwo, all the way down to five?
We actually document that.
Because guess what we want tosay, especially if you're in and
it's not only in thisenvironment, but especially if
you're in a transactional typebusiness where there needs to be
a framework and there needs tobe volume and velocity, you need
(23:56):
to have a more prescriptivemethod of really taking
opportunities and buyers throughthe buying cycle.
But it works otherwise too.
But the point being, that's thelevel 200, if you will know
that we are documentingspecifically what they do at
each stage to be able to winthese opportunities.
(24:17):
One other thing I'll mentionvery quickly, because I know
we're running out of time.
The other thing that I want tomention quickly we're good.
We're good for it.
Yes, one of the other thingsthat I want to mention there,
too, is not only what theirsales activities are, but with
whom.
Here's what I mean, paul.
There's a cross-functional teamthat supports a seller through
(24:39):
their sales cycle and, of course, to the buyer, the buyer cycle.
There's a cross-functional team.
Yes, you have partners, youhave marketing, you have revenue
operation that list goes onlegal finance, etc.
So the question then is foreach one of these top sellers,
who do you engage at what stage?
So let me use the example Salesstage two.
(25:00):
Who are your go-to people tohelp you with ensuring that your
opportunities are passingthrough a sales stage two to
transition to sales stage three?
Is it SES?
Is it just you?
Is it with partners?
So you get the not only theseller themselves, but you get a
wider cross-view of who are theresources that those
(25:25):
individuals actually leverage.
So that's kind of the level 200that I'm going through right
now, and maybe I'll return andtell you what the result is.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I was just thinking the same thing.
Right, let's get back togetherwhen you got level 200 results
to talk about and you'll be onyour way to talking about level
300.
It'll be great.
So, all right, Glad to share.
This has been a funconversation.
Before I let you go, I want youto have a chance to drop some
(25:56):
knowledge on our audience thatmay or may not be enablement
related.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I have some knowledge here.
Paul, Be careful what you'reassuming.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
And again, it may or may have nothing to do with
enablement, sure, but if youwere given the gift of time,
travel back and allowed to coachsome younger version of
yourself, right, maybe right outof uni?
Right, some younger version?
But the only limitation is youcan only talk about one topic.
(26:26):
What would you choose to teachyourself?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
The statement comes to mind, paul, vividly never
waste a good crisis.
Interesting.
I remember the very place thatI was when that statement was
made to me by my boss.
At the time I was at NiagaraSchool, never forget it.
(26:52):
I was sitting in my boss'soffice and we were discussing
opportunities, et cetera, andthere was a particular deal that
was going south and not goingwell.
I think we eventually lost thedeal, but my boss made the
statement, paul, to me and itlanded Never waste a good crisis
.
In other words, a lot of theexperiences that we have in life
(27:15):
, what I'm finding as I getolder.
That's why I have these grayhairs here, paul as I grow older
.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Your hair didn't fall out because of enablement
frustration Potential.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
What I'm finding is that we learn a lot more, it
seems, from our failures thanour successes.
We take our successes forgranted, but when we fail, if we
take the time and we learnthose lessons, then we won't be
as timid as sometimes we are.
To just try new things, I tellmy team all the time today, not
(27:49):
necessarily, no.
That's why your question isvalid.
Don't box yourself in.
Be creative.
Just blow your head off.
Essentially right, and thenwe'll figure out how we get
things out.
Because every time I see as ateam we get together to put
together a particular initiative.
No one person's idea is thebest one.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Oh, that's so true.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
It's all about the combination and the derivative
of others.
It's powerful.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
I knew that, paul.
I wish I knew that because Iwouldn't have been that timid as
I am and I'm trying to dodifferent now, but, man, I wish
I knew that from before I reallydid.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
None of us as smart as all of us and, trust me, I
did not understand that earlierin my life, my career as well.
I had to kind of figure thatout over time.
But that is great advice.
Thank you so much for that.
And thank you, rodney, weappreciate your time, we
appreciate your energy, justamazing energy you've brought to
(28:50):
this.
So thank you for that and thankyou to all of you who have
invested a half hour of yourtime with Rodney and I.
We appreciate you.
You're who we do this for andwe'll see you in two weeks with
another guest and another topic.
Take care.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Thanks for joining this episode of Stories from the
Trenches For morerevenue-enablement resources.
Be sure to join the RevenueEnablement Society at
resocietyglobal.
That's resocietyglobal.
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