189: Psychedelics, AI, and the End of Mental Illness - with Dr. David Rabin - ReversABLE

Episode Transcript
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Josh Dech - CHN (16:26.336)Dr. Dave Rabin, welcome to the show.

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Dr. Dave Rabin (16:30.607)Sure.
Dr. Dave Rabin (16:36.303)That's fine.
Dr. Dave Rabin (16:43.013)Thanks so much for having me.
Josh Dech - CHN (16:44.914)I'm jazzed to have you here. And my, as my voice just cracks to show my excitement, like I'm hitting puberty for the first time. Dave, we are talking about some pretty wild stuff today that I don't think it's enough coverage. And for podcasts that primarily focuses on gut health and how our guts are connected to mental health, you're taking us way out into the stratosphere, which I'm, I'm excited about. Break it down for us. What is it we're going to be covering today? And why does it matter so much? Why should we start to care about this?
Dr. Dave Rabin (17:14.703)I mean, I think the main reason why we should care about what's happening now and what we're going to actually talk about today is that we're at one of the most, if not the most exciting inflection point in mental health that we've ever been at in the history of psychiatry, where we're through the developments in both the technology sector, inclusive of AI, as well as what's coming
down the pike in the psychedelic assisted therapy world, we're starting to see that we can develop the equivalent of cures for mental illnesses. And anyone who's ever been diagnosed with a mental illness or who has thought about mental illness or who is a practitioner knows that mental illness is, know, when you're told you have one, it's typically a lifelong situation. And that's what we're told. And that's what we as doctors are told to communicate to our patients. And I think
Josh Dech - CHN (18:07.574)Mm-hmm.
Dr. Dave Rabin (18:13.635)that is proving to be something that is not entirely true and that we can actually intervene in much more effectively than we thought by starting to get to the root cause of what's going on, getting really underneath the surface. And it's really, it's such an exciting time for us as both people who are clinicians helping treat mental illness and prevent it, as well as people who are struggling with mental illness. have, we're really at a point where
we can start to think about treatments for mental illness similar to modern treatments, similar to the way we were thinking about the development of antibiotics for infection and that, you know, we're really starting to get to a point where perhaps, you know, giving somebody the right protocol within six, 12, 24 weeks, you can get somebody into full remission of their illness, into like a cured state. And that's just never existed before. And so I think nothing is more exciting when we're talking about, you know,
the state of the world and what's happening and what impacts our decision making, which is stress, and stress causes, know, overwhelming stress causes mental illness, we can actually do something about that now. So that's really the most exciting.
Josh Dech - CHN (19:22.678)Sure.
Josh Dech - CHN (19:26.518)When we say we're doing something about it, one of the things that you specialize a lot in that I've seen top to bottom that really interested me in you as a practitioner is psychedelic therapy. Now we've had practitioners come on to talk about mental health as naturopaths or nutritionists to talk about the role of gut health, inflammation and how that actually impacts things like anxiety, depression, even bipolar, schizophrenia, these severe or spectrum of severity of mental health conditions, they're impacted by your gut, your microbiome inflammation chemicals.
But what you're talking about here is not just a nutritional therapy. You've actually worked with psychedelic therapy. So for those who are listening, they're probably hearing psychedelics and going, Woodstock or hmm, Cheech and Chong or hmm, acid tripping. When we're talking about psychedelic therapy, are we just going out to the woods on a journey and getting high as shit? Or are we doing something in a controlled environment?
Dr. Dave Rabin (20:19.067)Yeah, no, it's very much controlled. And it's very different than what most people might think of when they first hear the word psychedelic. Part of the work we're doing with my nonprofit medical board, the Board of Medicine, is to really destigmatize the term psychedelic to go back to what it actually means, which for those who don't know, psychedelic was a term that was coined by Aldous Huxley and Humphrey Osmond in the late 40s, early 50s. And what that
Josh Dech - CHN (20:27.915)You
Dr. Dave Rabin (20:48.399)word actually means is it means psyche, mind, and Delos to show or to reveal. And so when we talk about psychedelic as a word describing a state of being or a state of mind, what we're really talking about is doing something, putting something into the body or doing an action or having an experience that reveals parts of our minds to ourselves, to our awareness. And that does not require drugs. And I think that's the
Josh Dech - CHN (20:53.174)Hmm.
Dr. Dave Rabin (21:18.319)first and most important point for people to understand is that psychedelic experiences do not require drugs. And the first experience that psychedelic, that every single human being on the earth has had is called a dream. And when you sleep, your mind, the conscious wakeful part of our minds that's responsible for keeping us alive and surviving and functioning in the day-to-day productive world, quiets down.
and we're able to come into contact with what we call subconscious or unconscious material that then surfaces within our dreams. And that's why our dream content is often different but somewhat related to our waking life content, but nonetheless feels extraordinarily real. Because it is directly related to what's going on in our lives that might be metaphorical or actual beneath the surface of our awareness.
Dr. Dave Rabin (22:13.507)So psychedelic drugs as a medicine are really interesting. And we just published a paper on this in the end of 23 in Journal of Effective Disorders called, you know, best practice gold standards for the delivery of psychedelic assisted therapy because psychedelics as a drug class, like MDMA, psilocybin, even cannabis, ketamine, LSD, ayahuasca, plant-based medicines, they have this very interesting ability

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to molecularly induce waking dream states. And that has never been really fully understood or explored until recently in a real scientific way. Right.
Josh Dech - CHN (22:52.118)Because we just called it tripping up until now. But you're seeing it's a molecularly induced dream state where you're revealing the subconscious as if you were asleep in a deep state of REM or where your body's actually unpacking the subconscious, but you're doing it waking through the drugs.
Dr. Dave Rabin (23:10.231)through the drug augmenting a natural state of consciousness. it's incredible, right? When you hear what's actually happening, it's like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think what's really fascinating about how those medicines work is that they can be, when used in a controlled environment, which is what we described in our review article, the environment can be controlled very carefully and should be because the psychedelic medicines are
Josh Dech - CHN (23:14.099)What?
Josh Dech - CHN (23:18.58)Yeah.
Dr. Dave Rabin (23:39.404)as very famous neuropsychiatrist, Dan Groff, who was one of the first users and experimenters of psychedelic medicine, also in like the 40s and 50s, he described psychedelic medicines very accurately as non-specific amplifiers of awareness. So when you take something that non-specifically amplifies awareness, you can amplify awareness of anything. You can amplify awareness of things that you feel guilty, sad, or ashamed of, or you can amplify awareness of things you feel really wonderful and fantastic about.
and you can amplify safety and you can amplify fear. And so what we really talk about and really focus on in the controlled exposure to psychedelic medicines in a clinical environment or a ceremonial environment in the indigenous cultures is to provide a fundamentally curated safe experience, safety being the key word. And when people feel...
physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually safe to just be themselves and allow to come up from their subconscious, unconscious, whatever it is that was meant to get their attention, whatever it was that was meant to be, wanted to be worked on or assisted, helped, loved, et cetera, integrated into the whole, then you can have these powerful, incredibly powerful, like transformative healing experiences that can, for example, in the MDMA trials with just three doses of medicine and 12 weeks of therapy,
take somebody who has 17.6 years on average of severe treatment resistant PTSD and take them to, you know, 67 % of those people no longer being symptomatic after one year. And that is like an antibiotic level effect. So that's the, through the reintegration and re-understanding or facilitating new meaning making, you're safe enough to be able to remake meaning around your sense of self and the way you see the world. All of a sudden you can transform your reality and your life.
Josh Dech - CHN (25:18.368)Wow.
Josh Dech - CHN (25:34.09)That's bananas. So I gotta ask that. I mean, I have so many questions. Number one, is this safe? Obviously for generic use, does somebody have to go back to school and re-certify in this? Is it like a gun? In the right hands, it's used for hunting and self-defense and in the wrong hands, it's used for robbery and murder and all kinds of nasty shit. That's my first question is safety. Second question is who should be using this?
Is this all mental health? Is this schizophrenia? Is it just PTSD? Like what are the applications?
Dr. Dave Rabin (26:07.311)Yeah, it's a great question. Great two questions. So first question is, is it safe? And if you look across the literature from the 1940s when LSD was first discovered all the way through to today, there is a substantial preponderance of evidence, so a huge amount of evidence to say that in both animal models and humans, that psychedelic medicines are extremely safe.
and they're so safe because you can't really easily kill yourself by taking too much. Meaning, the medicine itself won't cause a toxic reaction in the body. Assuming if it's given to the right people, you don't have any other medicines on board, the chances that you actually kill yourself by giving yourself too much medicine, like you can do with opiates, Tylenol, Benz,
Dr. Dave Rabin (27:01.933)Ibuprofen, other medicines that you can overdose on, you can't really do that with psychedelics, most psychedelics, with very few exceptions. And so in general, the medicines themselves have a very, very safe, it's called a toxicity profile, which is great. the other side of it is that when we, you know, I think to your point about can they be used for malevolent acts, can they be used to
manipulate somebody versus can they be used to heal somebody? Of course. Just like, you know, I put them into the category of rather than a gun, which can be used to like kill or maim someone beyond repair. I would say I would put them into the category of more like an oven of a smartphone where a smartphone can be used for great good and productivity and happiness and community building and all of these things. And it can also be used for distraction and numbing and doom scrolling and
Dr. Dave Rabin (28:00.227)making yourself feel like crap and then sharing how crappy you feel with the world, right? And I've often affectionately referred to as the misery box. so psychedelic medicines, like a smartphone, when used intentionally, intention being the key word, to amplify safety, you can use them in the right environment to facilitate healing.
Josh Dech - CHN (28:04.412)Right, your little echo chamber of misery.

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Josh Dech - CHN (28:10.89)Yes.
Dr. Dave Rabin (28:28.199)and facilitate recovery and facilitate radical self-transformation and growth. On the other hand, when used incorrectly, inappropriately or abused, then they can have the opposite effect because they're again, non-specific amplifiers of awareness. So if you take a psychedelic as a common example and you go to a festival, which might be a fine experience to have when you're in a mostly sober state, and then you get exposed to someone
at that festival who tries to take advantage of you because they're a stranger, you don't know them and they trick you into thinking they're your friend and then they steal from you or, you know, in some way like try to take advantage of your altered state, then that can amplify fear and distrust and cause a effective like re-traumatization or can inflict trauma on people. And so it can happen to anyone, you know, anyone who's exposed to a medicine that makes you more suggestible can
Josh Dech - CHN (29:14.827)Mm.
Dr. Dave Rabin (29:24.61)accidentally by being in an unsafe environment amplify lack of safety and fear. And so again, it comes down to the intention with which we use the medicine makes a huge difference, but that's the same for every medicine. So it's the same for opiates, right? Opiate medicine are great intentional pain relievers, but when they're prescribed the wrong way for chronic long-term use, they have a high rate of addiction and death and overdose, right? So it's kind of like the same antibiotics, same thing used correctly, they have great effect.
Josh Dech - CHN (29:49.27)All right.
Dr. Dave Rabin (29:54.477)use incorrectly, they cause drug resistant bacteria to develop, right? And so the proper use is key. And then the second question you ask is who should or shouldn't use it, use these medicines. Interestingly, most people are probably fairly tolerant to psychedelic medicines. The few groups we know that are really not good candidates for psychedelics are, and it depends on the drug, but people who are taking other drugs,
Josh Dech - CHN (29:59.081)Right.
Dr. Dave Rabin (30:22.595)that interact negatively with the psychedelic. So if you're taking like Zoloft or Prozac or some serotonin drug, then you shouldn't take a serotonergic psychedelic because you can cause too much serotonin, which can cause serotonin syndrome and that can cause death. those are drugs that shouldn't be mixed. That's one category of people who shouldn't take psychedelics. And then anybody who has bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or any kind of psychotic-like disorder, delusional disorder,
or and even primary personality disorder are at risk of having negative outcomes with psychedelic medicines. And so are they sometimes used in those populations? Yes, but under extraordinarily careful care under a psychiatrist and a strong care team with very frequent follow-up. And so we don't recommend that people who have any of those conditions, you know, primary personality disorder or any kind of psychotic bipolar disorder,
Dr. Dave Rabin (31:21.647)pursue the use of psychedelic medicines in the recreational space because it can be very dangerous.
Josh Dech - CHN (31:27.048)And that's the recreational space. What about a clinical space? Is this for all conditions provided you're looking out for these interactions or these pharmacodynamics, how these drugs might interact negatively? Or is it just for anxiety, depression, PTSD? Or can you treat any condition in a clinical setting with a skilled practitioner?
Dr. Dave Rabin (31:45.894)So we're not there yet where we can say we can treat any mental health condition with a skilled practitioner because the field is still very young. And so what the evidence supports is that we can treat what we call effective or mood disorders very well with psychedelic medicines. So that includes PTSD, depression, anxiety, and anything related to those that's a unipolar disorder, not a bipolar disorder.
because bipolar all of a sudden moves you into a threshold of potentially becoming psychotic when you receive a psychedelic. so a skilled practitioner should be able to treat anxiety type disorders, depression and PTSD effectively with psychedelic assisted therapy. The key being psychedelic assisted therapy, not just administration of a drug and then expecting the results to happen. The therapy is actually the main
the main component of the treatment and the medicine is a catalyst or an accelerant to the therapy process. So if you're not doing the therapy process, the chances of you getting your desired goal long-term outcomes go way down. If you are doing a therapy process and the medicine can be a nice addition to that for some people, exactly.
Josh Dech - CHN (33:01.79)Right. It's not a magic pill then where you're just going to pop this drug, get high and feel good. So then what is it doing? You mentioned it's molecularly altering the waking state as if it were in a dream state. So it's pulling these things up. But walk me through the average user experience. Let's maybe start with something like depression or PTSD or whatever you see most commonly. They come into your office, they have this drug induced therapy session, they take some home. What is that like?
And then what goes on, what do they experience in their mind? Do they get really high and start tripping out and freak out in your office and they wake up feeling better? Do they have visions? Explain this to me like, like I'm, you're reading, let me back this up. Explain this to me like you're writing a book. I'm so excited I can't even getting my nerds all wixed up, can't even articulate. So yeah, walk me through the process, Dave.
Dr. Dave Rabin (33:45.871)Yeah

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Dr. Dave Rabin (33:51.548)Yeah, no, it's a very fascinating process. I think, again, we're still learning about this all the time. But as one of the few psychiatrists who's trained in both MDMA and psilocybin therapy, who has studied, or sorry, MDMA and ketamine therapy, who actively practices and trains clinicians in ketamine therapy, I think starting out with the general concept of
of psychedelics being mind revealing is really where it starts. And when we think about psychedelic medicines as being all mind revealing substances that induce this waking dream state, with the focus of amplifying safety in the clinical or ceremonial setting, the interesting part to me is that the drug itself, while some psychedelic drugs are more effective at doing
amplifying that safety than others, they all are kind of working in the same way in the trauma healing space. why I say that is because the modern understanding of most mental illness, regardless of what we call it, whether we call it depression, anxiety, PTSD, is based on the symptoms that people have, but what's at the source? Like what is actually happening to people that results in them developing anxiety, depression, or PTSD, or ADHD, or...
what have you. And what's interesting is that the modern understanding, which is also supported by the work of Tom Insell at the formerly, you know, head of the NIMH, National Institutes of Mental Health, strongly suggests that the source of nearly all mental illness is unresolved or unprocessed traumatic past traumatic events. So if we think about that as you've had something, you've had one or multiple very intense negative, negative as in
threatening, meaningful, intense experiences over time that have changed the way you see yourself to be a victim of circumstance as one example, right? And that's kind of the nature of trauma. And if you're a victim of circumstance, because something, a whole bunch of bad stuff has happened to you where you weren't supported after and the first person or people you told and said, hey, I need to talk to somebody, this really bad stuff happened to me. And the first thing somebody says to you is, why'd you let that happen to you? What's wrong with you?
Dr. Dave Rabin (36:16.665)which is actually one of the most common responses that people get, especially women when they've been through challenging, threatening experiences, especially women who have had sexual trauma or a threat of sexual trauma, right? This is very, very common. And so what does that do? Well, that response from the listener is a judgmental response that basically victimizes the person who was just, you know, ex-
Josh Dech - CHN (36:42.719)puts shame and blame on the victim.
Dr. Dave Rabin (36:45.371)Right. And then that victim, the person who experienced that traumatic event, rather than saying, I did the best I could and I can get through this and this wasn't my fault, starts to ask the question, well, can I trust myself to keep myself safe? Maybe I can't. Right? And so now what's happened is the experience this person had, which we might have not called a traumatic experience at first, gets fully converted into a traumatic experience through the interaction with what they consider to be their support system.
And then it concretes into a completely fractured sense of self-trust, which is the core of trauma is fractured self-trust. and Gabor Maté talks about this a lot in a really nice way, but it's this idea that fractured self-trust is at the core of, questioning whether, doubting whether we can trust ourselves, at the core of almost all traumatic experiences, and almost all mental illness. And so if you think about that,
And then you think about how we use psychedelics to reveal those memories again to ourselves in a safe environment, whether it's MDMA, psilocybin, ketamine, or ayahuasca. What all of these disciplines are doing is they're cultivating a profoundly safe experience where the person who has experienced the trauma or who having the mental illness symptoms is feeling safe enough to go back.
with the added safety benefits of the drug, amplifying the safety of the environment, of the trust in the therapist, of the comfortable room and the setting, right, is to allow the person to go back and reevaluate, feel safe enough to like remake meaning around those past events and recognize, hey, wait, actually it wasn't my fault. Despite what I might've been told, what happened wasn't my fault. I was just doing the best I could. I didn't know any better.
Dr. Dave Rabin (38:36.803)I was 4, 5, 6, or was 13, 14, 15, whatever, I was just doing the best I could and I didn't know any better at that time and nobody else would have either. And it wasn't my fault. And when you do that and you feel safe enough to remake meaning around that experience, what you do is you disconnect the concept of victimhood from your identity. So victimhood is a concept, it's a thought process that I am a victim versus
Dr. Dave Rabin (39:06.681)The opposite would be, am in control of my destiny, right? And so if you can separate this idea of, can't trust myself, so I'm a victim of circumstance, to, I just remembered, I can trust myself, so now I'm in control and I realize what I have control over, I'm no longer identifying as a victim of circumstance, I have choice, right? You've just restored all of your power. And that is effectively how all psychedelic assisted therapy works and how all general therapy works around trauma.
Yeah.
Dr. Dave Rabin (39:36.345)psychedelics amplify it.

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Josh Dech - CHN (39:36.372)Hmm. amplify it. So it sounds like you've got this like a book, like a storybook that's been written. It's been printed. The ink is already on paper, but this gives you a chance to actually go back and rewrite that book. So every time your brain, your mind, you revisit it, you rewrite it or you reread it with this new narrative in place.
Dr. Dave Rabin (39:55.649)Exactly. That's a great way to describe it. And I use it because our minds are like full of stories that other all most of the time other people have told us to believe. And so we have to you know it's up to us to constantly reevaluate what stories came from me what stories came from others and what stories are actually true to me and what stories came from others and maybe are their stories but not mine and I don't have to believe them anymore. Right. And so it's a constant just remembering
Josh Dech - CHN (39:58.688)Very cool.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Dave Rabin (40:24.239)that we always have the ability to, moment to moment, rewrite that story. And psychedelic medicines and dreams have the ability to remind us of that capacity.
Josh Dech - CHN (40:34.27)Yeah. So I had a girlfriend many years ago and she used to work at a bank. She was actually held hostage at gunpoint by the bank robber who was chewing spearmint gum at the time from that day forward. And she went through a lot of therapy and stuff for PTSD and trauma for that. But
Dr. Dave Rabin (40:45.327)Wow.
Dr. Dave Rabin (40:50.735)I bet you can't be around that smell of sperm and gum.
Josh Dech - CHN (40:53.354)That's exactly it. It makes her nauseous, makes her vomit every single time. But her therapist was trying exposure therapy where they kept getting her to smell spearmint all the time to try to numb her brain to it. So how would this apply to something like that where there's a trigger or a memory or a scent or whether it's someone's cologne who hurt somebody, every time you smell that cologne, you go through it. How does this psychedelic therapy apply to these types of PTSD traumas, these scent memories?
Dr. Dave Rabin (41:23.595)It's exactly the same. think about, so what you're talking about, that your girlfriend, the process that your girlfriend did with her therapist is called exposure therapy. And so what she's doing, what the therapist is doing is saying, hey, you were exposed to this smell, this scent in a very threatening environment. And so you made it, your brain made a connection between the smell of experiment gum and potential immediate demise threat, ultimate threat, right? So now we're going to separate those two.
and we're gonna give you the smell of spearmint when you feel safe. And they say like, do you feel safe right now? They say, yes, okay, here's the smell. You're still safe. Do you feel safe? Right? And then your brain starts to re-associate safety with that smell rather than fear with that smell. And so in psychedelic medicines, with psychedelic experiences, you're doing exactly the same thing, except it's...
you faster, you're amplifying the brain's ability to learn through feeling, amplifying the safety pathways in the emotional brain. You know, a lot of psychedelic medicines are specifically amplifying safety cascades in the emotional brain and that's how they work. And so when you're, that's in the limbic system, insulate cortex. And so that tells the amygdala, the fear center that it doesn't need to be firing off right now. And
The therapy protocol you're talking about, is exposure therapy, does that over weeks to years, or months to years. Psychedelics do that in days to weeks. So it's just, it's the same protocol of reassociation of saying, hey, I was associating this scent with fear, but wait, actually, this scent has nothing to do with fear. It was just falsely associated because they happen to co-occur at the same time. So now I'm gonna do the opposite. I'm gonna reassociate this scent.
Josh Dech - CHN (42:58.719)Wow.
Josh Dech - CHN (43:12.278)Gotcha.
Dr. Dave Rabin (43:15.675)or this people places things with safety. Then all of a sudden, every time you smell that, you don't remember the threat, you remember that you're safe. And so it's like a Pavlovian learning process, like Pavlov's dog, more light than anything else.
Right, right, right, So what about, so let's talk about the therapy component. I read a study from years back and they'd taken war veterans with PTSD and they gave them psilocybin. Some of them had micro dosing of like 200 mics or 200 milligrams and they would self-report that over many, many months, generally speaking, that their PTSD, their anxiety was definitely down over time as this cumulative effect happened. And then they'd say, hey, here's four or five grams.
go get really super high, watch your Xbox turn into a turtle and walk away, and they come back and go, hey, I'm feeling really amazing, but then months later they say I'm still seeing improvements. But that's, don't know if this study included therapy or not. Is this something that somebody can take psilocybin, which for you listening, psilocybin puts the magic in magic mushrooms. So can you take this on your own, either via micro or macro dose?
and still get some results or the same results? Is therapy absolutely necessary or does it only apply to some psychedelic medications?

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Dr. Dave Rabin (44:31.067)That's a question. you know, I think it depends on a couple things. It depends on dose highly, and it depends on what your goals are. So if your goal is to figure out what's going on underneath the surface of your consciousness, which we call like insight building as an example, I want to look underneath the hood. I want to see what's going on under there. I want to understand my behaviors, my thoughts, my feelings better.
why I'm doing what I'm doing, why I'm thinking and feeling the way I'm thinking and feeling, then you really wanna have therapy as a core component of that. Because doing this all the time, self, like just thinking over thoughts that you have in your head and feelings internally is only one perspective. So there's like multiple infinite perspectives on what you're thinking about and feeling in here. When you speak it,
Dr. Dave Rabin (45:29.678)or write it down, you get perspective number two, which is hearing what's going on in here, right? So you spin it out, you write it down, and then you read it or you hear yourself say it. And then all of a sudden you have a second perspective. You're like, you can be like, wow, I actually feel and think that way about myself, right? So that's perspective number two is just from getting it out. Then you have the therapist listening on the other side and the therapist hears what you say and then reflects it. A good therapist will reflect it back to you through their own lens. And then they say,
I hear you saying that you don't think you're worthy of love or that you think you're a bad person or whatever, whatever the fact that you're incapable of healing or doing any of following things. They're like, wow, I didn't realize that's how I actually feel or think about myself, but that is what I'm saying. And then that provides like, if you think about it, it's like layers of clarity through understanding how your internal perspective is reflected.
Dr. Dave Rabin (46:29.381)through outsiders who are other humans just like us. And to that point, I don't think AI can really be an effective therapist because the core part of therapy is human reflection and it's really seeing yourself in somebody else's eyes and vice versa. And so, there's a core humanness to psychotherapy, to good psychotherapy that heals people.
Dr. Dave Rabin (46:54.839)that AI I don't think will be able to accomplish because it is a very purely human to human experience. And so I think, you when we're talking about that type of psychedelic therapy that gets people these tremendous long-term outcomes, there, you know, there is a requirement for psychotherapy, talk therapy as a component of that to get people those really successful, reliable long-term outcomes.
Can people achieve some of those outcomes on their own without a therapist? Absolutely, right? But are they as long lasting? Are they as effective? Is there more risk when you do it on your own? Yes, to all three of those questions, right? There's more risk when you do it on your own. You don't have somebody holding a safe container for you. The outcomes don't last as long and you don't have as powerful outcomes when you do it on your own for most.
most people most of the time. So the whole point of the therapy component is how do we standardize it and how do we make it as reliable, as safe, and as repeatable as possible so that even people with the worst circumstances, the worst symptoms can come in and get a reliable and continuously successful experience that they rebuild their sense of trust in themselves and in their healing process. But yeah, there are plenty of people who will use psychedelics independently and
Josh Dech - CHN (48:13.814)It's amazing.
Dr. Dave Rabin (48:18.203)You know, one of my very esteemed colleagues, Dr. Jim Fadiman, who's credited with developing most of the practices and terminology around microdosing, just wrote a book with Jordan Gruber, which is, you know, in a lot of respects, like I would say it's the closest thing to the evidence-based microdosing Bible. And anybody who's interested should check it out. It's their new microdosing book. And it would say that for microdosing,
psychedelics, if you do it properly with the correct tiny doses, using the correct protocols, that many people can get safe access to symptom relief from many different mental illnesses, particularly depression, without a therapist present. But the goal is symptom management. It's not looking under the hood and getting to the root cause of what's causing your personal and life challenges, right? Those are very different goals.
Josh Dech - CHN (49:13.11)Right, makes sense to me. Dave, I want to take a jump off the deep end here. We're talking like if you ever watched Dr. Strangeries and space fighting Dormammu, like we're going there. So DMT, very popular, Ayahuasca, right? People go on these trips and vomit out all their demons in whatever it is they do in the woods with. It's definitely like a white lady thing. But Ayahuasca, I've had many friends who have done it. They come back and they've like, they've completely shifted.
Dr. Dave Rabin (49:27.333)Love it.
Josh Dech - CHN (49:42.848)their entire world experience, their view. I had a buddy who recently went through it. He's gone two or three times now in his life. And he says, from that point, I realized we are all the same. I could never harm, hurt, or treat somebody differently or poorly. From then he's like, I just, I no longer have it in me. this, this human-ness we'll call it, or, you you might refer to it as say sin nature has been scrubbed from my soul. He's like, I just can't act that way. So.
I wanna ask you a bit about DMT. I'm gonna throw a story at you. Back in 2024, there was a study published in Nature where they actually had an IV drip for DMT and they achieved maximal effect in about 30 minutes and they had someone under for almost two hours. But most are of course, know, 15, 20 minutes if you smoke it or drink it or whatever. Now I've also heard some wild stories that people coming back after using DMT, ayahuasca have come back.
and they report a lot of the same things, the visualization, same entities, same beings, same physical structures. And I don't know if this is Joe Rogan or where I heard this, so maybe it's totally alleged, but that there's so much consistency in these visions that people are having that they plan to map and draw out what they call the DMT realm. Like it's another place that the human mind goes to, like a fourth dimension.
So what are your thoughts on this? These changes people are experiencing. Do you believe there's another dimension, another realm? Do you believe it's actual spirits people are engaging with? Or do you just think, you know, DMT produces the same result for everybody?

(02:07):
Dr. Dave Rabin (51:16.795)It's another really great question. It's a big one. Well, I think we can get through a lot of it. think the short answer of it is that if you... So what DMT is, so that everybody understands, is a natural organic occurring psychedelic substance. And DMT exists in our own brains in the pineal gland, and it stands for dimethyltryptamine.
Josh Dech - CHN (51:20.022)We should have asked at the beginning and taken an hour to do it instead of five minutes.
Dr. Dave Rabin (51:46.34)So dimethyltryptamine is a molecule that binds to and activates part of the serotonin system in our brains in a different way than serotonin. it's, you know, science strongly suggests that it's secreted at certain times in high levels when we're very young in early life, around when we're born, when we die, and in all likelihood in our dreams and when we are.
doing deep meditative states and accessing deeper states of consciousness, there's probably some DMT release going on from the pineal gland. what's interesting, which is, and this goes back to the first studies of DMT in the Western world came from Rick Strassman, I believe it was in the early 90s, that Joe Rogan wrote about in the Spirit Molecule to popularize that work afterwards, which is the idea that
or actually not wrote it, think Rick Strassman wrote the Spirit Malachio, but Joe Rogan did the video series on it. And what's interesting as you described is that people who have these DMT induced experiences report basically all going to the same place, which is like the white light at the end of the tunnel, which interestingly enough is also the same consistent with reports of people who have had near death experiences, right? And in near death experiences,
Dr. Dave Rabin (53:13.167)when you're dying, it's also understood that you have a giant burst release of DMT naturally. And they believe that that happens at birth and they believe, again, it happens at these different periods of your life. And so I think it goes without saying that if you administer a molecule like DMT or your brain is naturally secreting it, the self-reports of people who have had those experiences are consistent with people
Josh Dech - CHN (53:18.856)At birth as well, I believe, right?
Okay.
Dr. Dave Rabin (53:42.288)going to the same place and having similar experiences. This white light at the end of the tunnel and then seeing whether you call it going to another dimension or not, you're kind of leaving your body, your sense of self disappears, you're like one with the universe and mind, body and spirit are now complete, like the barriers between mind, body and spirit you might have perceived before no longer exist and you're back connected with the oneness of everything and you're like energy again. And that's...
a pretty universal, reported experience.
Josh Dech - CHN (54:16.146)How do you explain it as a scientist? Yeah, do you believe it's another dimension we're all traveling to? like, how would you explain this as a scientist with the knowledge you have?
Dr. Dave Rabin (54:18.991)How do we explain it?
Dr. Dave Rabin (54:27.131)Well, I mean, if you understand the laws of physics, which are that one of the core laws of physics is the conservation of energy, right? So conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. It only changes form. And so if energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then before we were in our human bodies, we were energy. And then we come into our human bodies when we're born, and then...
We're in energy in a matter, human form, call it your meat sack or whatever, and then that's what you are for your life, right? And then you die and you do go somewhere. Every single religion, culture, tribal tradition, whether they've talked to each other or not in the past, they all believe you go back somewhere after you die. And then it's back to the oneness. It's back to the universe, back to the collective consciousness. And so then there's a coming of energy into human form. And then there's a return of energy back to
Josh Dech - CHN (54:57.334)Sure.
Dr. Dave Rabin (55:23.149)It's other form. It's non-human form, call it, just to be simple. And so, you know, when you're experience, there's an experience that goes along with that, and that experience is mitigated by probably tons of hormones and neurotransmitters and other things going on, but DMT seems to be at the core. Like if we were to narrow it down to like one molecule that's responsible for what you experience when you come into your body and when you leave your body, which can also happen in dreams, it can also happen with psychedelic drugs, it seems to be that DMT is at the core of.
And there are different experiences you can have at DMT, quite different, right? Like the indigenous tribal traditions, like talk about the the Shipebo people from Peru who have been studying ayahuasca, which is the indigenous use of DMT containing plants for that you drink, which lasts about four to six hours of an experience from ingesting oral DMT from the plants that people have.
Sometimes they have the leaving their body like white light experience and other time and interaction with other entities and other times they're fully present and aware and they're, you know, in a height meditative state or they're working on themselves and reappraising trauma and healing trauma or doing different, there's different things that can happen, but a lot of that difference in happening comes from the setting and the environment that you're in. yeah, so it's a really, and what's really interesting to the idea of mapping out around.
is I don't know if you, I'm sure you have seen indigenous garments, like indigenous fabric and art, and you've seen those squiggly patterns that they draw, right? So almost everyone has seen that kind of art, and it's very, very popular in South America in particular. And what's really interesting about that art is if you talk to those people about where those concepts for that art come from, they tell you it comes from the plants. It comes from the spirit world, which is where Ayahuasca and DMT take them.

(02:28):
Josh Dech - CHN (56:58.197)That's right.
Dr. Dave Rabin (57:18.211)and they see those visions of those patterns and they have those experiences and that is the map of that territory. So we are not by any means the first to consider mapping out the spirit realm is what I'll call it. It's like the other world that we are, the non-physical world. They've been mapping out the non-physical world for thousands and thousands of years by just interacting with it and then drawing, painting, knitting what they see.
Josh Dech - CHN (57:37.631)It's wild.
Dr. Dave Rabin (57:47.738)Right? It might be new to us in the Western science world, but they've been mapping it out for a long time. And now we're just finally catching up.
Josh Dech - CHN (57:53.95)Yeah, even like sacred geometry that goes back thousands of years, these different shapes, the circle of life. I mean, this goes back to the beginning of time. I mean, even right, like the Fibonacci sequence, which you'll get with a Fibonacci what you'll get from like a rose or a conch shell is different, beautiful, like how nature is created. And then of course, a sacred geometry, which depends on who you ask it came down from a spirit or from God or whoever to explain.
Dr. Dave Rabin (58:04.708)Absolutely.
Josh Dech - CHN (58:22.14)mathematical formula of all life on earth and i've heard again like dmt it's sort of like experiencing this root or this mathematical equation if you will in real time experience which is just something that i think the human brain maybe was never designed to comprehend
Dr. Dave Rabin (58:40.463)Yeah, it was designed to be experienced, not necessarily understood, right? And I think that's a really important thing to remember, which is hard for us with our very critical thinking Western mindset is, know, some things were meant to be experienced and not meant to be understood because they're beyond the, like, what do you do with that understanding, right? right, and if that's what you do with that understanding.
Josh Dech - CHN (58:44.778)That's bananas.
Josh Dech - CHN (59:02.89)You'd be nice to people for forever now.
Dr. Dave Rabin (59:07.867)then you have learned what you're supposed to learn from the experience. And I think the, you know, one of the experience that you said your friend had coming back from an ayahuasca experience, like saying, could not treat other people in a not nice way anymore because I realize that we're all the same, is the core learning that we should all be taking. Anybody who has had an altered state experience, whether drugs are involved or not,
You don't need to have an altered state experience to have this recognition, but the fundamental recognition is that separation is an illusion. Separation of mind and body is not true. The mind and body are inherently connected. Separation between you and me, it's an illusion. We are connected because we're both human. And if we're both human, we have 99.999 % of things the same about us, even though the 0.001 % of our genetics is different and we look different and we might have slightly different interests.
our core wants, needs and desires are all identical, right? Like at the root, we're all human before we're anything else. We're all alive before we're all human. So anything that's alive also has common interests to stay alive collaboratively. And we all need food, water, air, shelter, love and acceptance by our community and protection from predators.
Right? And that's it. Like those are the five or six things and sleep like five or six, seven things that we all as humans need. Everything else is extra on top. And so if we look at ourselves the way we were taught, if we look at other humans, the way we were taught as focus on the differences first, which is often what comes into our minds first when we meet somebody new. then we are falling into the trap of the illusion, the illusion of fear and difference. But if you remind yourself first, actually
Josh Dech - CHN (01:00:40.278)Mm-hmm.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:01:03.077)But when I meet somebody new, I instantly remind myself of all the things we have in common first, before I think about our differences. Then what you're doing is you're reminding yourself that you're safe. And then that person and you have 99 % of the same interests, food, water, air, love and acceptance by your community, shelter, sleep, right? You all have the same core wants, needs, and desires.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:01:25.152)Sure. It's Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs,
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:01:28.994)Exactly. then everything else, everything different takes, rather than triggering a fear response in the amygdala, which is the part of our brain that evolved to detect contrast or difference, right? Rather than that triggering fear, it triggers enrichment. It triggers wealth of understanding because then your differences from mine become the nuances that enrich my life and maybe fill my blind spots and compliment my weak parts about
what I'm not good at because you might have skills that I don't have or likes and things that I don't have that make my life better. And at the same, on the other hand, I might have the same thing that can contribute to your life. But if we focus on fear, differences meaning fear, then we miss out on all the opportunities to enrich each other's lives. And so that is the core takeaway of all psychedelic healing, whether you have a drug involved or not, and all healing in general is to just see ourselves, see each other as human first and that we are have
infinitely more in common than we do different.

(02:49):
Josh Dech - CHN (01:02:32.704)That right there I think is extraordinarily profound. We talk about the amygdala and you go, it's a fear center of your brain. But we're told it's fear. What you're saying is the amygdala is actually built to identify difference. We've just identified difference as scary. Therefore amygdala becomes fear rather than enrichment. That is powerful. Wow. Dave, know, yeah, go ahead.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:02:52.123)Exactly.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:02:56.387)And so it's just like the spearmint gum situation.
If we've learned to associate from childhood that difference equals scary as kids, right? Then we take that with us into our adulthood. And then all of sudden, anybody who looks different than you, who appears different in any way, that instantly triggers a fear response first. And you're like, no, no, no, I don't wanna be anywhere near that. Just like your girlfriend in the sperm and gum, right? Every time you expose somebody different, it might feel like you're getting held up at a bank, but that's not actually what's happening. And so we have to...
Josh Dech - CHN (01:03:02.698)Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:03:30.639)it's up to us to remind ourselves and to help ideally live the example and teach each other that, you know, we all do have the same wants, needs and desires first and that we're re-associating difference with safety rather than difference with fear.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:03:46.216)I think you just solved world peace Dave. Bing bang boom. Man, done. Bravo.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:03:50.01)Definitely, it definitely, I'll give the credit to all the indigenous leaders that came before me, but I think it's up to us in Western medicine to really dive into indigenous knowledge and tribal wisdom and the knowledge of the Eastern practitioners from ancient yogis and Buddhists and Tibetan monks and all these people who came before us who all came to the same damn conclusions.
Right? Without Western science, they all came to the same conclusions. And it's just us now being like, well, can you approve it with science? And if you can't, right? And so it's really about science. It's just understanding where we're at, right? Like science is great. It's fantastic, but it has its limitations in that the burden of proof is on the scientist. The burden of proof is on the person trying to disprove or prove what came before as intuitive knowledge.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:04:25.182)Yeah, we gatekeep so much,
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:04:45.219)It doesn't mean that intuitive knowledge is wrong. It means you have two sources of understanding and knowledge. One of them is in your heart, in your body, and the other one's up here in your dome. So are you gonna focus on just giving this all the credit and not giving this any credit? Well, then you're ignoring all the intuitive indigenous understanding from thousands of years of humans existing before we came, we were born. So it's about integrating all of that together. And that's what's gonna take us into the next generation of.
I hopefully, what I'm hopeful as, you the successful perpetuation of humans on earth for the indefinite future.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:05:21.782)I love it. World peace and longevity. You're like Thanos, but not mean. You've done a great job. Dave, someone's gonna have some questions for you. I hope to God you guys follow up on this. I wish we had, I could sit for another hour, minimum, if not like five. I have so many more questions. We'll have to do this again sometime, Dave.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:05:25.295)Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:05:40.965)Yeah, we can do a quick lightning round. have a little more time if you do.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:05:44.938)Yeah, well, let me throw the ball back to you then. Let's say open mic, anything that you haven't talked about, haven't mentioned light bulb moments, ah-hahs or famous last words for a listener. What do you want to drop?
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:05:56.719)Well, we didn't get a chance to talk about it much, some of you see me wearing this funny tie clip on my chest, which is called Apollo, and it is a wearable, but we also just, and it delivers vibration to your body that.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:06:08.852)This is the Apollo neuro wearable device. Yes, which is amazing. The research is remarkable.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:06:11.195)Correct. thank you. And I think, don't know if I ever told you this story when we chatted in the past, but the reason, the way we actually discovered these vibration patterns that change your body and help you feel safe in your own body, which is again, going back to the theme of this conversation, recognizing that I'm safe enough to appreciate differences rather than criticize and judge them about myself or about others, is we were studying MDMA-assisted therapy.
And it was in 2016 when I officially received my own MDMA assisted therapy training and trying to figure out like how is MDMA therapy inducing these dramatic, never before seen levels of improvement in veterans with severe PTSD with just three doses of medicine and a bunch of therapy. And what became really interesting and clearly unignorable during my training was that MDMA
like safety was the core theme of the training and MDMA assisted therapy in both animal models and human models, human patients appears to be working by amplifying safety circuitry in the brain, telling the amygdala that's blasting off, you're under threat, you're under threat. Say, hey, you're not actually under threat, you're safe right now. Let's tap back into the body and feel what that feels like to feel safe in your body right now, molecularly amplified by the medicine so that people feel safe enough.

(03:10):
to go back and remake meeting around past traumatic events and associations. And so we knew, we've known for a long time that MDMA works in that way with therapy to heal people with severe trauma. However, MDMA requires MDMA and it's still not legal, right? And so we are, yeah, and even then it's like, know, what are you getting is actually MDMA or is it some other mysterious substance?
Josh Dech - CHN (01:07:53.194)Right. Unless you know a guy who knows a guy.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:08:02.545)yeah, gotta watch those street drugs.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:08:05.151)Yeah, exactly. the fact that we don't have legal access to this for patients when we know it works this well and safely is just a tragedy. However, we foresaw this coming and so we thought, well, we know that the government is gonna make this a long hard path for MDMA as they have for all psychedelics. And so we thought, well, if we understand that safety's at the core, can we deliver some of the benefits of safety to people that can be felt in the body, similar to MDMA?
Josh Dech - CHN (01:08:12.02)Mm-hmm
Josh Dech - CHN (01:08:23.209)Of yeah.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:08:34.701)induced safety, but without taking MDMA. And so I went back to the lab after my training and I started mapping out all the nervous system pathways that get activated both by soothing touch, soothing music, soothing sensory stimulation, smell of your mom's chicken soup, all the things that we really like that give us joy. And then comparing that to what we knew about MDMA therapy at the time and how that activates pathways in the brain. It turns out they activate similar pathways, soothing touch, for instance.
like getting a hug from a loved one or your crush holding your hand, activate similar pathways in your body as MDMA. And so when we started to see how common those pathways were, we thought, well, what if you could just deliver a soothing sensation like vibration that feels like touch to your body and get similar results in terms of boosting safety feelings in your body as we did with MDMA. And so we spent many years working on this at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.
and eventually were able to discover through much aggressive, rigorous clinical trialing that we could induce roughly 50 % of that safety effect. And so we commercialized that as Apollo, Apollo Neuro, which now it was really exciting is that anybody listening to this who's like, I don't get this safety thing these guys are talking about. I don't understand it. This is a bunch of bullshit. You can literally go to your iPhone right now and for free, you can download the Apollo Neuro app or you can go to
hug, the hug vibe.com and download the Apollo neuro app. And you can feel by just holding your phone to your chest, you can, we will, for free upgrade your phone to deliver Apollo vibrations through your phone to your body anytime you want. And just holding it to your chest or anywhere on your body and closing your eyes for 30 seconds, you can feel what it feels like to feel safe again in your own body from the bottom up body to your brain. And that boosts vagal nerve activity. It boosts heart rate variability.
key metric of recovery and longevity. you're trying right now. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So you feel like the gentle ocean wave like vibration going up and down.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:10:34.134)I'm putting on my chest right this second.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:10:40.928)Yeah, it's kind of a it's it's a vibration like my phone's ringing in my pocket except it's different and it's it feels like a hug. It's a little bizarre.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:10:49.659)And so you can give that to yourself anytime. And it's risk-free, it's just sound waves, it's cost-free. And our clinical trials have had such tremendous outcomes. really wanted to, we saw this as a public good. Our company's mission is to just create technology that heals humanity. And so we thought, well, we can continue to sell people stuff and we have to do that to make money and survive. But if we can make something for free that anyone with an iPhone can access and help actually make a dent in the trauma recovery problem
give somebody who might make a terrible decision around attempting suicide or hurting somebody else, say, hey, I can actually calm myself down right now and not take those acts of aggression, then we can save a lot of lives and help reduce a of suffering in the world. And so we just released that in February and we're really excited to make it free for everyone to access.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:11:25.749)Yeah.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:11:40.063)Can you desensitize to this, like at a point where it no longer has an effect? Wow.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:11:43.898)Nope, because your body, because what you're feeling is a natural wave state, it's a frequency that your body likes. And that if we were all living in nature without all this technology and overstimulation around, we would naturally be in this state. So, or if you had mastered deep breathing or yoga or meditation, you can naturally get yourself into this state.
And so what this does is it just sends the right signal to the body that the body interprets as, I remember this rhythm, this is the rhythm that I should be breathing at. And then it creates like, it's like chanting om. Do you ever get tolerant om? No, you actually just get better at getting into that state the more you do it. And so that's the same effect that we see from this is the more you use it, the easier it is to naturally get into the state with or without the Apollo vibrations helping you.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:12:31.35)Right.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:12:41.75)It's amazing. I've got this thing on my chest right now. I got the app downloaded it put it on my on my chest and the last minute or so we've been talking. My heart rate is kind of very like I test my pulse here. My heart rate come has come down and my breathing. I feel like like it's bedtime breathing. I'm no longer like amped up because our conversations been exciting. I'm like taking these slow deep breaths without even knowing I went there until I reassessed to see where I was. That's really bizarre, but super cool. Wow.

(03:31):
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:12:57.274)Yeah.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:13:09.485)And to give you an idea of how common this experience is, this is exactly what happens when you're having a hard day and you get home and your friend or loved one gives you really big hug. It's exactly the same experience. It's exactly the same experience when you chant Om. It's exactly the same experience when you go to the beach and feel ocean waves gently washing over you or when you hear one of your favorite songs come on by chance and you're feeling like crap, right?
that it's just inducing a common resonance state in the body that the body likes to be at at rest, but is often due to the chaos of modernity. When we're overstimulated, we're often not there. And so it's just a reminder to the body, hey, remember this feeling? This is where you wanna be. This is where you like to be. This is where healing happens. And it's just by sending that right signal as if you were having one of your favorite playlists on following you around all the time.
that is reminding your body of the state that it actually prefers to be in. And when you do that, just are there more of the time.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:14:15.062)That's incredible. I love it. You are a tech wizard. All these AI robots, Elon Musk is coming out with in whoever now. I hope they implement Apollo technology so I can hug my robot instead of my dog, you know? That's brilliant. Dave, people want to find you, learn more about you. Where do you want to send them? The tech, your Instagram, a website, research. What's the best thing you could send somebody to to learn more about this?
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:14:25.337)Right?
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:14:40.293)So if you have an iPhone, you can go to thehugvibe.com, www.thehugvibe.com, and just check it out for free on your iPhone. If you don't have an iPhone and you want to learn more about our work, you can go to apolloneuro.com or wearablehugs.com. It'll take you to the same place. And if you want to find me, I always like to hear from people. You can check me out on my website at drdave.io, or you can check me out on socials at Dr. David Raven.
Josh Dech - CHN (01:15:09.12)Beautiful I'm checking out the hug vibe calm. That's awesome I'm make sure all that stuff is linked down below everyone you guys can check that out head down pick up the app It feels great I just tried it out and that Apollo neuro is the wearable tech that you can actually have you guys have watches you can put on your ankle or a wrist right like straps
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:15:27.225)Yeah, it's one device with different attachments. I'm wearing the, we have a few different color options. This is the white, the rose option. And this is with a clip. So during the day, will clip it to my shirt and just wear it over my chest. Cause it feels really, really nice as you just experienced to have that feeling on you. But I don't have to have my phone on me and I can just have it as often as I want throughout the day. And then at night I wear it on my ankle with a sleep band.
Which is the most popular way that people wear Apollo actually is on their ankle, but it works anywhere on your body Which is kind of nice so you don't if you're a kind of person who already has wearable tech that you wear you already have watches or things that you wear you don't want to you know take up more wrist real estate fear not you can wear Apollo anywhere you like and As long as you can feel it you can get the benefits
Josh Dech - CHN (01:16:18.55)It's amazing. Dave, it's been a pleasure, man. My mind is absolutely blown. I'm glad we got to go off the deep end a little bit there. I just want to thank you for your time, your expertise, just being here. And I'll look forward to the next time rather we get to bump into each other in person.
Dr. Dave Rabin (01:16:32.73)Yeah, likewise. Thank you.

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189: Psychedelics, AI, and the End of Mental Illness - with Dr. David Rabin

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}189: Psychedelics, AI, and the End of Mental Illness - with Dr. David Rabin