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What if your anxiety, brain fog and depression we’re just in your head… what if they were coming from your gut?
I can tell you from experience that this is almost always the case. Not only have I seen it in my clients, but it happened to me too. My gut was an absolute wreck in my 20s, and I struggled with anxiety, panic attacks, crippling depression and suicidal thoughts. And today's guest is going to show you how to come out of that to heal yourself naturally.
Kriben Govender is a food scientist, registered nutritionist, and host of the Gut Health Gurus podcast, who shares his personal journey from near-suicide to thriving mental health by healing his gut, so you can learn to do it too.
TOPICS DISCUSSED IN THIS EPISODE:
- How your gut shapes your mental health
- The basics of fermentation and gut healthy foods
- Different types of probiotics and psychobiotics for your brain
- What actually causes depression
- Trauma, PTSD and their connections to your gut
- How your enironment impacts you: circadian rhythms, moon cycles, seasons and nutrition
More from Kribin Govender
Instagram: @guthealthgurus
Facebook Group: Gut Health Gurus
Website: nourishmeorganics.com.au
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Kriben Govender (04:32.659)Thank you for having me.
(00:01):
Josh (04:34.75)It's a pleasure to have you here. Now, Cribbin, obviously there's so much to talk about in the way of ferments or bacteria, the microbiome, food and modern food manufacturing, the gut-brain connection, like there's so much to get into. But before we do, I'd love to get a bit of context for our audience. Can you tell us a bit about your background, how you ended up here and what got you to doing what you're doing today?
Kriben Govender (04:58.203)Yeah, sure. It would be around at least 12 or 13 years ago. I was working in the food industry in multiple roles through my career. But towards the end of my career in the industry, I was working in procurement, extremely stressful role. At the time I had three young children. I was highly stressed and I just had a, just a crazy breakdown.
My marriage collapsed and I found myself alone in an apartment on the verge of suicide. You know, it was really close call for me. Combination of the stresses of life. And since I've done a lot more deep diving to discover what the actual cause I believe was, and primarily it was my gut. So, really digging myself out of that hole.
and putting my science hat on and looking at the literature and looking at the data on what was causing this feeling of depression. And I've carried depression for most of my life. Not now. I mean, I'm thinking back those 13 years ago. You know, since a kid, I've always been, you know, really, it was really noticeable, my change in my mental health.
If I'm a child being quite a happy, vibrant kid to then, you know, in my teenage years being quite a dark sort of character. And if we trace it back to what the actual moment that changed, I went on a family trip overseas and I got really sick. And during that trip, they put me on a massive dose of antibiotics. It was actually almost life threatening. I picked up Shigella dysentery.
I just lost 10 kilos. I was already skinny and I turned into a waif pretty much. But that dose of antibiotics, I can pretty much trace to the complete change in my mood personality because now we know it wiped out my gut microbiome. It destroyed my gut microbiome. And because my diet and lifestyle wasn't great, even being a food scientist, I mean, you know, we're not.
Kriben Govender (07:20.327)We're not perfect in terms of our diets because we have limited information, what's taught at universities and whatnot. I've done heaps more studies and research since then to work out what's a better diet for myself. But that destroyed my gut, which led me to this pivotal moment in my life where I almost took my life and then fortunately going to the next point and trying to work out what the issues were. And then
putting into strategies how I can address my mental health. And it wasn't just my diet in terms of the strategies that I used, you know, I use things like yoga, developed a yoga strategy, developed a very consistent exercise strategy, started to really focus on my diet, what I'm eating and.
The pivotal thing for me was actually discovering the importance of fermented foods, particularly in ancient food called keffia, which was, you know, from day one starting to consume keffia dramatically improve my.
I'll side note that I come back to the general methodologies for dealing with depression and anxiety that I was following in terms of the Western style medical type of route, which was seeing a psychologist, they go through some behavioral exercises, which were extremely helpful. And then also a suggestion to take
medications. So I refused to take the medication. So I didn't go down the Prozac and the Zoloft route. I decided to go through a very, as much as I can, a very natural path. Because typically if you start these drugs, it's almost like a lifetime of usage. So I didn't want to commit to that. And what was, in terms of the Western style of modern treatments, I did find the
Kriben Govender (09:38.127)So meditation, you know, that's where I learned how to meditate for the first time. That's where I learned to actually deal with my emotions. So going through exercises. And I remember a time where the psychologist at the time was like, you know, what's causing all this, this anxiety and depression and going through some exercises, like, you know, roll up a piece of paper and then, you know, confront that person. That's.
making you depressed. So it's like, imagine this pillow is like your, this person and now, you know, really a moat. And that I, it literally broke me down because the emotions that were welling up inside of me confronting this person for the grievances that have caused me and then rolling this piece of paper and then just expressing my emotions explosively. And it ended up at the end of it. I felt I was down on my knees in tears and my
Josh (10:16.13)Hmm.
Kriben Govender (10:37.103)hands, my fists were bloody because I rolled this piece of paper and just beat the crap out of this pillow for a good five to 10 minutes. And it was extremely cathartic. So, you know, these therapies are extremely powerful. You know, from then I even went on to start doing speech and drama classes, acting, did a whole year of theatre training. You know, really took that year off to...
Josh (10:48.974)Thank you.
Kriben Govender (11:06.047)heal myself. And then of course, delving into the literature, started my own company called Nourish Me Organics to take what I learned and bring it out to the world. And I think since going through the pandemic, we've seen an explosion in mental health crises across the world. So I think my message is really starting to resonate now, like 10 years.
plus into the future where it's really starting to resonate. That you can actually, by focusing on the gut and all these other modalities of course, really improve your mental health dramatically.
Josh (11:48.254)So it sounds like, if we go right back to the beginning of the story, you got sick on a trip, you were given antibiotics and wiped out your microbiome, and you went on this journey through really sort of the cognitive psychology of depression, worked on emotions, how to figure that out, but you're also working this uphill battle. Like you had your microbiome wiped out, which is responsible for up to 90% of your neurotransmitters. So for our listeners, we're talking dopamine, serotonin, things that give you these...
feelings of elation or focus or happiness and joy. And so you're battling this on a non-stop basis. You've got this cognitive uphill battle working against a chemical imbalance and you still manage to get yourself ahead. But did you find that was enough of a solution or is it like you're battling this forever until you get your biome checked?
Kriben Govender (12:40.015)I think initially there was a relief. You know, there was, there was hope because when you see tangible improvements in mood, they're very simple interventions. It's extremely positive. The thinking retrospectively, it was a pro it's a process that's ongoing for me because we all know how detrimental antibiotics are to the microbiome.
(00:22):
And then, but to repopulate and get these species back does take effort and time. Fortunately, now there's an explosion of products like psychobiotics, there's prebiotics that targets, particularly the gut-brain axis. So it's not a simple, easy fix where it's just a switch. You're absolutely right. It does take time. It is a journey to improve over time.
because it's like an axis. So it's not like a switch that's binary. There's progressive improvements. And I think doing this for so long now, I think my mental health is much, much improved. And the practices I still follow in terms of meditation and a strict meditator, in terms of my diet, I'm extremely strict. My lifestyle habits, very strict. So I can safely say now that my mental health
positive state.
Josh (14:11.766)So let's talk about that gut brain axis, right? Because obviously your mental health is in a positive state because you've done a lot of work on your gut, done a lot of work on yourself, a lot of therapeutic practices, a lot of things that you talked about were very cathartic. So you're releasing a lot of that emotion. So we can tell just from this conversation, right? Obviously there's a connection between your gut and your emotions, and not just chemically, but also through the gut brain axis. Can you walk us through how the gut, your emotions and your brain all interact?
Kriben Govender (14:41.427)That's a great question. You already touched on a little bit on the neurotransmitters, GABA, dopamine, serotonin. Serotonin I would say is being disputed in the literature, but I'm not completely convinced that it's not directly related to how you feel. Anecdotally for myself, I think by consuming products like kefir, which are loaded naturally in GABA and also tryptophan.
These are all precursor molecules that through a conversion cycle get converted into serotonin particularly and dopamine and then also melatonin down the track. But what's really important with that gut-brain axis is to activate that conversion process. We need to be managing light very carefully because the conversion process of this cycle
to serotonin to melatonin starts in the morning. So the first practice that I adopt that really helps me to start my day is I go and brush my teeth with minimal clothing out grounded facing the sun. Because what happens is that as you build up this, of course, through dietary means, you build up this tryptophan reservoir in your body, then to facilitate.
conversion, we need that early morning sunlight hitting the eyes to kickstart the process, because the body is yoked to the cycle of the sun. So on the same note, same cycle, as we start to get later in the day, and then the light starts to diminish, this is when the melatonin production kicks in, but the cycle starts in the morning.
So you can argue that the serotonin and melatonin, the precursors are produced in the morning. So it's all a cycle, complete cycle. So this, and going back to your question, the gut and the brain are connected via the vagus nerve. So there's this two-way talking that goes on. So if you cut the vagus nerve, the gut can still function. It has neurons of its own.
Kriben Govender (17:10.343)Just like there's neurons in the brain, there's neurons in the gut. So that's why it's typically called the second brain. I would argue perhaps it's the first brain because there's so many functions happening that are where it's not really relying on the brain. There's actually more communication going from the gut to the brain. So the gut is talking more to the brain than the brain is talking to the gut. So that's a basic primer.
And then in terms of the microbiome, the microbiome being almost like a little chemical factory. So it's like the microbiome are the collective of the different organisms that live in the gut, but also the collection of genes, the genetics. So holistically, it's called the microbiome and the microbiome is directly responsible for producing a lot of these neurotransmitters. So.
You know, if we do a stool test on someone, we could look at the potential of the microbiome to produce things like serotonin, acetylcholine, dopamine, because they are the ones that literally take the raw materials and then convert it into these neurotransmitter chemicals. So it's like a little factory. So in terms of your mental health, if you're deficient in the materials
to produce the neurotransmitters, then perhaps your mental health is not in its perfect state. But then if you lack the organisms to convert, then on the same token, the gut is then not able to facilitate the optimal mental health. So there's many layers to the story, but to simplify it, it all comes down, the easiest way to look at the microbiome
is just a little chemical factory. So it's your body's own pharmacy. That's probably the easiest way to put it. But for the pharmacy to work, it needs the right raw materials coming in. You need to have the right players that are on the team, but then the right external lifestyle factors to facilitate the factory working properly. So hopefully I didn't go down too many different tangents there, but it's a complicated.
Kriben Govender (19:38.425)issue.
Josh (19:39.662)It is very layered and it's really hard to explain. The question I gave you was kind of a crap question. It was really loaded. There was 19 different answers you could have gone down to. And I think you summarized it very well. It's really what is the connection between the gut and the brain? And that is a six month course minimum just to start understanding the basics of it. So I think you summarized it pretty well in just a couple of minutes there. So you mentioned this chemical factory. You mentioned how we're linked to the sun. As a sidebar,
Before I ask my next question, how do you feel about sunglasses?
Kriben Govender (20:13.203)I don't wear sunglasses. I mean, of course, some people with sensitivities need to be careful, you know, not staring in the sunlight. I actually like, I like my eyes being exposed to the sun, of course, in a safe way. I'm not going to sit and gaze up at the sun in the middle of the day. But I think the sun is like a, it's a huge electromagnetic field. That's the easiest way to put it. So.
It's an electromagnetic field that's really pushing out all these, almost these waves of light, if you want, or electromagnetism out to us. And then this has a profound effect on the biology of the Earth. You know, it's like if the sun wasn't there, life wouldn't exist. But then we, some people, make the sun into a villain.
But it's certainly not a villain. It's just like anything in nature. It can be detrimental in some ways, but by and large, very beneficial for life on the planet for all life. So I don't wear sunglasses because I want to be able to signal to my circadian biology, exactly what time of day it is and exactly what it should be doing at that particular time of day. So, you know, I try and expose my body to.
sunlight as much as possible.
(00:43):
Josh (21:45.058)I love that. Thank you. That's a good explanation. So I've talked to people about that before. It really is the way we are made, the closer we get to nature and natural, you don't see a lot of African tribes or jungle tribes wearing sunglasses because they don't need them, right? Their bodies, they get up with the sun, they fall asleep at sunset, and they're really well set in. They don't really have the same type of ocular diseases that we do for a myriad of reasons, but I wanna get your opinion on that as a sidebar out of my own curiosity, but.
My next question for you then, Cribbin, would be about, you mentioned a superfood, kefir. You mentioned GABA and tryptophan and serotonin and dopamine conversion and melatonin and all these different bits and pieces. Now, for someone like myself, I can't do dairy. I don't digest it very well. I can have like water buffalo milk, but not cow's milk. Even sheep and goat gets really spicy for me. So I got to be careful. But fermentation...
is this process that creates these bacteria in all kinds of foods. And so you're often described as a fermentation expert. So I have a line of questions for you. First, what makes an expert versus a rookie when it comes to fermentation? The next is what are some good substitutes for things like kefir that we could ferment for those with dairy issues?
Kriben Govender (23:01.203)That's a great question. I mean, I've no absolute grew on fermentation. I think the only thing that qualifies me more than the average person is my background in food science. So having a degree in food science, majoring in microbiology, I have a very in-depth interest, of course, and also a passion for fermented foods and a deep understanding of the science when it comes to the process of...
fermentation from a biochemistry perspective. So that's all that differentiates me from the average fermenter. I know what potentially can cause an issue in terms of food safety, perhaps, versus an average person. I can spot out different types of spoilage organisms versus dangerous organisms like moulds, probably better than the average person. But, you know, I'm not going to put myself on a pedestal.
to say I'm the BL at the end of all, I'm just like everyone else also learning. I'm just a little bit ahead in terms of the science of the process. And then in terms of your second question, it's a great question because I'll just preface it as just holistically saying that most of the research on fermented foods, the ones that actually have any clinical benefit have been done on dairy.
So that's just the nature of the way this food has progressed. So things like yogurts, you know, whether it's a BB, the BB 12 strain or, you know, some other LA five that have got good data behind them, something like a VSL number three, that's also dairy based product, tons and tons of clinical research, but that's not to say that the non dairy versions are any less as effective.
It just means that the dairy ones have had more research behind them, just given the amount of funding that's available in the dairy industry, versus the other ones that perhaps don't have the same level of funding to research and provide evidence-based information. Great alternatives, which we have seen in nourishment organics, we have obviously tens of thousands of customers. Anecdotally speaking, products like water kefir.
Kriben Govender (25:26.715)extremely effective. We've seen lots of good feedback from customers using it for various different issues. You've got things like coconut yogurts and of course you've got your fermented vegetable products, things like sauerkraut or kimchi. Then you've got your misos, you've got your natto. They're all going to be beneficial. But when it comes to the microbiome in fermented
Kriben Govender (25:55.655)the little factory and having these little team players working in that factory. What scientists do agree universally is that diversity is the most important factor for a healthy ecosystem, particularly the microbiome. So if you look at any ecosystem on the planet, if you went to a rainforest, then you, then you completely bombed the hell out of it. And then you went down to very minimal organisms. It's very unlikely.
that ecosystem is going to thrive. On the same regard, if you look at a pasture that's sprayed with chemicals and that needs a lot of human intervention to thrive, that's an example of something that has a low diversity of life in it. On the same token, if your microbiome is diverse, you've got more players on the team to actually
make these compounds that the body needs. So if you are deficient in a certain vitamin or a certain mineral or a certain element that the body needs, if one part of the microbiome is impaired for some reason, you have another guy on the team to chip in and help out. If the diversity is low, perhaps you don't have that teammate to back up.
then that results in deficiencies and in potential ill health in the body. So that's why we're coming back to full circle to fermented foods. Fermented foods are nice way, particularly if we're focusing on the non-dairy versions. It's a nice way to incorporate things like sauerkraut, kimchi, kombucha, water kefir, just to introduce some different players onto your team.
some different microorganisms to improve diversity. But what's important to understand and note is that not all organisms have the ability to colonize. So unfortunately, in terms of colonization, a lot of the research has been done on mouse models. And some bacteria, particularly lactobacilli, they've been reclassified now to different names, but I'll go back to the old names. Lactobacillus...
Kriben Govender (28:19.503)doesn't have the ability to colonize the human gut. So it doesn't mean that that's a bad thing. It just means that we need to be consuming it on a regular basis to get the benefit of the organism. Because what will happen is it'll exert its influence on the body, but then it's transient, it'll pass through the stool, and then it'll no longer be there. So that's why regular consumption of things like coconut yogurt,
Water kefir, kombucha are extremely beneficial to someone that's on a non-dairy based diet, equally as beneficial as a dairy based diet.
Josh (29:02.182)You mentioned that these probiotics pass through and don't culture, and that's been something that's been up for debate. Obviously, the research is coming out on a lot of them. They used to think they did, and they said they didn't. Now they're saying, well, it's some strains, not all strains that will culture. The ones that are used in ferments.
Right, obviously for our users who may not be familiar with the ins and outs of bacteriology, they're pretty common ones you might find in probiotics, the ones you might find in yogurt, like your roiteries, or like you said, your acidophilus or bacillus strains. Now those ones are kind of your fundamentals. You'll find those in most probiotics, but in your experience, do most over-the-counter probiotics actually get into the body in culture or are they just like these other ones where they're very transient, they kind of come in, they're there for a day or two doing their job, then they're out.
Kriben Govender (29:48.743)This is a very interesting question. I have a broad, a broad statement when it comes to any form of supplementation. I just think that the ones that you typically find in the supermarket or if you find, and that's equally general supplements, you know, like vitamins and minerals and all sorts of other beneficial, potentially beneficial chemicals, the ones that are on the countertop
typically going to be weaker and less rigorous in terms of their research. Because I've, I've seen how a lot of these products are manufactured. There's very minimal testing and trials and things like off that nature done on these products versus a practitioner based product, which is typically more expensive, typically dispensed by a healthcare practitioner.
But these tend to be much more well studied, much better quality control behind them, and more likely that they're going to be efficacious in the body. So a lot of the ones that you tend to find in the supermarket or the pharmaceutical shelf that you can just go and buy. I hate to say it, but most of the time is they're just taking buzzwords and putting it in the bottle. That's the easiest way I can put it.
(01:04):
There's very little rigor in how these products are made. A lot of them will come, especially in Australia, will come under the food regulations, which are not as stringent with say a pharmaceutical product. So unfortunately, most of them are not worth their weight in gold. That's why I'd steer people towards products that have clinical trials, something like a VSL-3, obviously dairy-based and not suitable for everyone.
Something like a Megaspore biotic, if you're looking at a spore-based product. Biotiquest, you know, something like a sugar shift, very great or powerful al-Ruteri strains used in that. And just pick something that's practitioner-based. That's the easiest way you know you're going to get a decent dose level, you know, with any probiotic or any medicine, the dose really matters.
Kriben Govender (32:10.043)You know how much you're taking, how much is actually in that pill, makes a huge difference to the biological outcome on the other end. So just taking a basic probiotic off the shelf is probably not going to cut it. I think if you, if you're conscious of your wallet and you're trying to be more economical, certainly making your own fermented foods is going to be much more cheaper than just picking one off the shelf and then hoping it's going to work. So that's my advice.
Josh (32:41.55)So I do want to actually get into making your own ferments. Before we do, I want to just ask one more question here. You know, we spent a lot of time talking about depression and the gut brain axis and how it's connected in the chemical factories that produce these things. And you talked about psychobiotics. Can you dive into that a little bit more, what they do and how they interact with the brain?
Kriben Govender (33:03.571)That's a great question. I've also interviewed on my podcast a guy by the name of Dr. Ted Dynan. This was, I think it's close to at least seven or eight years ago, when the field of the psychobiotic concept started to emerge. It was out at the University of Cork. This turns out that there's certain strains. You highlighted this very eloquently.
are right down to the most accurate version of a bacteria. It's like saying, you know, the dog species versus going right down to a chihuahua. So we know exactly what that dog is capable of, what its attributes are. On the same token, you can also consider bacteria in the same way. So there are certain strains, so let's say chihuahuas,
ability to produce certain neurotransmitters, certain compounds that could be beneficial. Something like certain bifidae bacteria strains can produce a lot of tryptophan, for instance. The way they are functioning is that they're increasing the reservoir of tryptophan in the body to then facilitate that conversion of tryptophan to serotonin, to melatonin.
So this is one mechanistic idea on how these things work. And if we go right back to the early days when they were looking at these things, scientists could actually transplant, it's a rodent model admittedly, but they could transplant a depressed microbiome into a germ-free microbiome, like using mice.
Kriben Govender (35:00.823)No microbiome essentially. And then all of a sudden having the depressed microbiome could then exhibit signs of depression. So this is how they connected the dots that the microbiome could potentially be involved in how your brain functions and your mental health and your wellness. So in terms of coming back to psychobiotics now, it's like a gold rush. You know, so there's all these companies now working.
very hard in the background to come up with this magic pill. But fortunately, there is some great products in the marketplace already. Microbiome Lab have a product called Dual, which has two strains of psychobiotic organisms. I use that myself and it really does help my mental health. Because I know particularly looking at my own stool sample, I do have deficiencies in Bifida bacteria. So then it all comes back to understanding
what that microbiome picture looks like, and then filling in deficiencies. So the trap is, if you're not deficient, by taking a psychobiotic or taking any supplement is not gonna be beneficial. It's only if you have a deficiency where you need supplementation to fill in the gap. Sorry, you were gonna ask a question.
Josh (36:21.39)Hmm. No, you're great actually. It wasn't much of a question I was gonna say. It's really unfortunate for the mice that we can use them in studies so efficiently, but really fortunate for the human race that we can put them in cages and do this kind of stuff. There's so much to figure out and understanding psychobiotics and how they influence our moods and our emotions. And I guess I describe it very simply. It's like we eat, we poop. What we eat, our bacteria eat and they poop.
They either poop good things for us or bad things for us. And based on the balance that we have and what's going on, that's what we're gonna determine. We're gonna poop good moods or they poop bad moods. They poop vitamins or they poop toxins. It's really that simple. But there's so many different ways to damage a microbiome. So I'm curious, what are the foods that you see might lead to...
mental health issues, psychological issues like depression, what kind of foods or lifestyles or behavioral patterns can damage our gut which will influence those moods.
Kriben Govender (37:24.795)I can speak to my current state of understanding, because I think that'll be most beneficial for your audience. In terms of the ones that damage it, number one on that list are going to be processed foods. So any form of ultra-processed food, which is laden in various chemicals or oxidized seed oils, emulsifiers, artificial sweeteners.
In said medications as well, I'd say non-steroidal anti-inflammatories, you know, off the counter, ibuprofen, paracetamol. I'll add that in the same bucket, but all these that I've mentioned have got fairly solid evidence-based information to show that they disrupt the microbiome.
Josh (37:59.906)like your ibuprofen and stuff.
Kriben Govender (38:17.019)So it comes back to a very simple ethos. You know, we know some of these processed foods or these elements of processed foods can damage the microbiome. The easiest way is to try and go back to how we used to eat, how our ancestors used to eat, starting to eliminate a lot of these processed-based foods, especially fast foods, you know, quick service restaurants, really cheap and nasty type foods.
processed foods off the shelf, I always tell my audience and my clients that I see is to tend to avoid the center aisles of a supermarket because this is where all the processed foods typically live, whereas in the outer ends of the supermarket is where your fresh foods live. So going back to fresh foods, learning how to prepare food for yourself, the next level, growing your own gardens, going to farmers markets.
preparing your own foods at home, making your own fermented foods. These are all the things that are most damaging and this, this is the strategy on how to actually overcome it. So that's the most, the number one most damaging thing I'll think of. And of course, antibiotics, you know, that would be a very close second. And typically we get a bit of a sniffle. I've got a little bit of a sniffle at the moment. So the typical person would run to the
Doctor would get a prescription of antibiotics and then bomb your gut, bomb your microbiome. Of course, antibiotics are important in certain cases, so they should not be excluded if you've got severe infections. But just general, you know, malaise, it's very beneficial not to try and avoid it as much as possible because there is a consequence from taking it.
(01:25):
Kriben Govender (40:13.015)antibiotics into your diet is actually for meat. So a lot of the livestock, especially things like farm salmon, they can't survive without antibiotics. So they're literally bombarded with antibiotics. Of course, the antibiotics then pass on to the flesh and then you consume it. On the same token, you know, these are modern type of farming practices discovered a long time ago that if they.
pump a lot of antibiotics, particularly, you know, it's not going through an injection. They just put it into the feed. The feed itself for many producers is loaded with antibiotics, tetracyclines I think they're called. So what they discovered by doing this, it actually fattens the animals. It makes them grow faster. So they use it more as a commercial intervention for profits rather than to keep the animal healthy.
So a lot of the meat that you consume, you gotta be very conscious of. Ask these producers, these farmers, are you using antibiotics? Is it grass-fed versus grain-fed? If it's grass-fed, it's more likely to not have antibiotics. Grain-fed, obviously this is where the antibiotics are being added. So it's just being conscious of what you're putting in your mouth, antibiotics, extremely close second.
I'm trying to think of anything else that's really damaging.
Josh (41:36.866)Please.
Well, there's so many, I mean, smoking and alcohol and stress and what were you going to say?
Kriben Govender (41:42.815)Yeah, I was going to say it's a nuanced topic as well, because one man's medicine is another man's poison. And that's what I've discovered by looking at, you know, hundreds and hundreds of microbiomes through testing and through my own clients, that the advice that I provide one person could be completely counterintuitive to the second person purely based on their microbiome
Kriben Govender (42:12.251)You know, the next layers down become very nuanced. You've got the general rules, you know, things like you mentioned, healthy lifestyle, good sleep, you know, lack on the flip side, lack of sleep or poor lifestyle or alcohol, smoking. These are all generalistic holistic health terms that influence all aspects of health. But as you dig deeper and deeper, it becomes more nuanced. So one man's
Medicine is another man's poison and vice versa. So the microbiome is extremely nuanced
Josh (42:49.406)Yeah, I mean, if we look at one to 2000 strains and seven to 9000 species, you can surmise there's anywhere there's roughly 18 million different types of bacteria. And obviously there's trillions of those ones. And so it really becomes this, this massive ecosystem. I mean, the average human's got three to five pounds of bacteria sitting in their gut, which is immense. So
Right now, I mean, technology only really allows us to measure about 50 out of the 18 million. So we really do just have a grain of sand on the beach. But it's enough to sort of get a handle on the complexity of it so we can at least have a bit more respect for it, even though we can't measure it in 2023 with all the technology we've got, we can't conclusively measure microbiome, at least we know to pay it some freaking respect, rather than just bomb ourselves for antibiotics and junk food. But the crib and going back to
depression and mood, some other nuances around there. If you are able to answer this question through your own research or qualifications, really, I guess my question in a lot of these cases, is it the chicken or the egg or both? If somebody's dealing with depression, which leads to stressful situations, stressful moods, anxiety, elevated cortisol, inflammation in the gut, and by that, a damaging to their microbiome, or someone like yourself who's pumped full of antibiotics, then damages.
the microbiome which leads to these symptoms of depression. It's very pronged. Where do you see depression coming from in the clients that you work with, that you've seen in research? Is it primarily other causes that the microbiome can assist or is it primarily the microbiome causing the depression or at least the vast majority of it?
Kriben Govender (44:32.179)I think the vast majority is just the modern way of living. It's just the very stressful nature of life, I think is the first starting point for most people. Not knowing how to deal with emotions is another common thread that I see. So I think the first, the most obvious thing is, is typically the one that is best to focus on, you know, am I getting enough sleep?
Am I getting enough sunlight in the morning? Because obviously sun is deeply yoked to how you feel. Am I eating the right diets? These are all the very common threads when it comes to causative actions for having poor health. Am I exercising enough? You know, these are all very important drivers. And then once you tackle those things, then you can go down.
further in the rabbit hole. So assuming, okay, my diet's great. I'm still feeling bad. I'm exercising. I'm still feeling terrible. I'm not binge watching Netflix. I'm actually living quite a balanced life. I'm not super stressed at work, you know, and then you go down to the next layer and the next layer, the next layer, and then you get down to the, it's almost like thinking of it as like an 80, 20 raw, like a Pareto analysis. It's like 80%.
80% of things are going to cause that the major impact on the body. So once you cover the 80%, then you can go down to investing in something like a stool test, which is going to cost hundreds of dollars and then to deep dive really into your microbiome to see where those deficiencies are, particularly in neurotransmitter production. So the most logical is tackle the big ones first.
and then go down to the layers. And then once you identify you have deficiencies in the microbiome, then you can look at B vitamins supplementation, magnesium, psychobiotics. Cute dog.
Josh (46:43.935)Yeah, little wiener dog Bruce, he sits behind me every episode.
Kriben Govender (46:48.844)Hopefully that answer made sense. It could really early on just be the microbiome that's impaired, but I think we need to tackle the obvious things first because these are the easiest and most effective ones to get a hold of because ultimately, even if you have the perfect microbiome, but your lifestyle factors are terrible, you're still going to feel terrible.
it's not going to help you. So you got to get the simple stuff right first.
(01:46):
Josh (47:23.246)Well, let's talk about buffering out that microbiome a little bit. Like you mentioned earlier, recolonizing these species, especially if you've dealt with this, you know, as a kid, antibiotics, if you were maybe born C-section or not breastfed, there's a lot of factors right from early childhood and birth that will influence your current microbiome and what you end up having as an adult, that sort of blueprint. But we can modify things, even like temporary, like you said, with ferments and other bacteria we can consume.
And I noticed you actually did a interview with Dr. William Davis and you talked about the bacteria and he and I actually did a great talk about his SIBO yogurt. I'm sure you're familiar with that. So there's lots of ways to utilize bacteria. You can make your own yogurts, you can ferment your own foods, you can make juice, right? As long as there's no preserves and put probiotics in there and they will culture and grow. And it's really quite amazing. But let's talk about some of these bacteria. Number one.
when you're fermenting at home. I've heard of people making kombucha that ended up making them very, very sick. So it was obviously ways you can screw it up. So can you walk us through how to ferment? Is there any way to know what bacteria is in those ferments? And how do we make sure it's safe?
Kriben Govender (48:38.035)The easiest way to ferment is to go down the tried and true path. So you've got something like, for instance, water kefir or milk kefir. They're loaded with billions and millions of bacteria. So they're going to do the work for you and make sure that the product at the end of it is going to be safe. So this is the tried and true path. The kefir.
Kriben Govender (49:07.847)getting sick from it, it can happen. What typically happens with kombucha making and people getting it wrong is they don't use enough starter tea. So say for instance, you're going to make a batch of kombucha, a liter batch. That means you're going to have a scoby and a hundred mils of fermented, like a very acidic starter tea. So most of the time, when someone gets it wrong, they try and make a five liter batch.
with a hundred mils of starter tea and a scoby. So there's just not enough bacteria, yeast entering into the ferment. There's not enough pitching. It's a common term we use in fermentation. There's not enough pitching. The acidity is not coming down fast enough. And then you've got competitive mole species then starting to dominate and potentially make a poisonous type of product. But if you impart enough bacteria and enough acid production,
rapidly, that's going to take any safety concern away from the product. The faster you acidify, the safer the product. Say for instance, you're fermenting some sauerkraut. So the key driver there is going to be the quality of the cabbage. Then are you adding enough salt? Are you processing the product to make the sugars in the cabbage accessible to the bacteria?
to then convert the sugar into lactic acid rapidly. So my recommendation there for novice is use a statoculture. So use the salt. You can use something like a Caldwell statoculture. You pitch the lactobacillus into the product so you're not relying on the natural ones if you're a novice. That way the acidity comes down fast enough. So we wanna get that acid level down quickly. Say within
five or six hours really rapidly bringing it down. By bringing the acidity down and having enough competitive organisms in the product, that will suppress any negative types of bacteria or pathogens. So a lot of, for instance, a product like kefir, the kefir grains have been around for kefir or kefir, how you want to say it, have been around for thousands of years. People have passed this down from generation to generation. It's a tried and true product.
Kriben Govender (51:34.523)But a lot of the key for organisms, for my research, this is something I've heavily researched, a lot of the key for organisms will produce their own antimicrobial compounds. So they're producing compounds, again, little chemical factories, producing compounds that are suppressing organisms that are gonna compete with them. And this is what keeps this biofilm, you can call it quorum sensing, that's another term that's used to...
identify or articulate how these organisms communicate with each other to look after their community and make sure that they are then safe and passing on their genes. So these are just basic things, you know, pitching, having enough organisms, going into the ferment that are beneficial, and secondly, acidifying the product as quickly as possible.
Josh (52:31.01)So if someone is a novice and they want to rely on, they said like a bacteria they can get their own, would you recommend just buying a proper, again, practitioner grade, not just some over the counter grocery store garbage, but would you recommend starting with a single one strain of bacteria? Can they buy a multi bacteria probiotic capsule that's got 14 different strains and use that to start the ferment? What would you recommend?
Kriben Govender (52:56.599)think the easiest way to approach this topic is to identify what your goal is. So some single strains like L-routerie are extremely well studied for various different elements. So if you are one of those people that are suffering from that element, picking that strain is going to be highly beneficial. So if you're targeting a particular illness, sure, go for it.
Again, a practitioner-based product, something recommended by Dr. William Davis or Martha Cullen from Biotique Quest, are all great products, specifically for Routery. Then others might just be like, I want to introduce a bit of Lata bacillus and a bit of Bifida bacteria because I heard they're good. So in that case, that's also perfectly fine. That's more a general health type of approach.
In that case, I would go for something like a VSL3, multistrained in terms of lactobacillus and lymphobacteris, clinically studied, evidence-based. So that's the one I'd be going for. So it really comes down to what the issue is. Is it a specific problem or illness, or is it general health? But holistically speaking, I would say that the ones from the countertop
are most likely not going to be that beneficial.
Josh (54:29.926)And of course, for our listeners, make sure you ferment in glass, not plastic. Guys, don't ferment in plastic. All that acidity will draw junk out, so make sure you use glass. But, Kribben, what can you ferment? I mean, is this like Frank's Red Hot, like put that shit on everything? Can you ferment any vegetable? Like, what vegetables shouldn't be fermented? Which ones are good for fermenting? Or does it matter at all?
Kriben Govender (54:35.665)Mm-hmm.
Kriben Govender (54:39.974)Absolutely.
Kriben Govender (54:54.439)Well, anything can be fermented in terms of vegetable type products. Meats can be fermented. You look at something like a salami, which is fermented. Coffee is fermented naturally. Chocolate is fermented. So anything can be fermented. The answer to your question depends on the level of complexity and the risk involved. So something like a sauerkraut, which is made of cabbage,
So they're easy to ferment and safely ferment. Whereas something like a potato might not be as easy to ferment, you know, just based on the available sugars in the product. So I think if you're an expert in fermentation, by all means, go and try and ferment, run experiments and fermenting different things. It's perfectly fine. If you're a novice, I think stick to the tried and true ones.
(02:07):
Yeah, like kimchi, sauerkraut, natto, miso. These are all tried and true products with a lot of history behind them. And also a lot of support. There's a lot of recipes online. There's a lot of communities online that talk about these different products. If it's some obscure product, like you're trying to ferment.
piece of whale or something, if you want to think of something completely obscure, then you're kind of on your own. You're running your own n equals one experiment and you're kind of hoping that you're not going to food poison yourself. So that's my recommendation.
Josh (56:18.158)Hehehehe
Josh (56:23.561)Right.
Josh (56:31.394)If any of our listeners happen to get themselves on, you know, their hands on 50 grams of a two ton whale, let me know and we'll make sure we get you an expert for sure. Talk about risk and you said fermenting meat. I didn't even think about salami. My first thought is like steak. That sounds extraordinarily risky. I wouldn't feel comfortable fermenting my own cabbage at this stage, let alone a piece of meat. Like what happens if I were to ferment like...
half a pound of steak. What's that going to come out as?
Kriben Govender (57:04.591)It is possible. I mean, it's just like a fermented sausage. You'd have to really grind it up into a fine mince, almost like a sausage type mince. You would need to use a starter culture as well. You'd need to get a hold of a very specific starter culture developed for meat. And then you could very safely do that. Because what you're doing is just dropping the pH of the meat.
from a fairly neutral pH down to an acidic one, something like below four.
Josh (57:40.659)Okay, so make sure you get a pH kit by the time you pull your ferments out to eat them. Test that they're all right.
Kriben Govender (57:46.131)I think that from memory as well, you also need to add dextrose. So because there's not enough sugar in the meat to feed the starter culture, so you need to have the meat, which is going to be primarily protein. Then you have to add dextrose as a food substrate for the starter culture and the starter culture. So that's how you ferment meat.
Josh (57:51.608)to feed the bacteria.
Josh (58:07.618)very sensible. And one last question for you, I know we've talked a lot about depression and its role in bacteria and how the gut-brain axis communicates and all these different chemicals. Do you know much in the way in your field of expertise or even experience in the way of trauma, PTSD or complex PTSD and how it connects to the gut bacteria?
Kriben Govender (58:30.215)I don't have any personal experience with the PSTD or even dealing with clients with that particular illness, but I can speak broadly and generally, you know, these, these traumatic events in our lives are, are stuck in our bodies. And definitely I think creates a, a sense of being, so a sense of identity. It almost becomes part of us.
but also from a neurotransmitter biochemistry point of view, you know, if you form this sort of idea of who you are, having this stuck in your body, I think it's not a leap to assume that it's going to have an impact on how the body functions and certainly how the microbiome functions. So, you know, if you're struggling with that particular element, I think by dealing with it is going to be a big deal.
certainly help you be a more optimized version of yourself. 100%. So, you know, there's, fortunately these days that things like MDMA that has been studied psilocybin mushrooms that have got particular studies in terms of PSTD, highly effective, you know, so definitely explored, but also cognitive behavior therapy, working with a therapist, dealing with these traumas.
dealing with these issues to learn how to heal.
Josh (01:00:04.038)Very interesting. Well, my last question, Kriben, for you, is there anything that we haven't talked about? Any topics we haven't gone over? Anything you'd like to mention to the audience listening about depression, bacteria, neurotransmitters, the gut brain, anything at all?
Kriben Govender (01:00:25.851)So you froze there for a second.
Josh (01:00:27.922)Oh, perfect timing. So is there anything, is my wrap up question, is there anything that we haven't talked about relating to the bacteria, depression, microbiome, ferments, gut brain access, any of these things that we haven't discussed that you'd like to mention to the listeners before we wrap up?
Kriben Govender (01:00:29.683)Hehehehe
Kriben Govender (01:00:45.427)Sure. A couple of things. I love this question because it allows me to talk about my current state of understanding and also this answer would have been very different probably a year or two ago. I think it's very important to understand that there are things that we don't know. I think there's a profound effect on seasons, on even esoteric topics such as the moon.
(02:28):
position of the stars in the sky. I think this, in my mind, undoubtedly affects how we feel when it comes to mental health. So that's something I probably wouldn't have talked about a couple of years ago, being a scientist. But I think I've matured enough to
Be humble to appreciate that I know very little. I know absolutely nothing in this infinitesimal cosmos. My knowledge is so limited. I know nothing. So I can't assume that these things don't have an effect. So I appreciate the position of the moon, the sun. Also, things like the moon. This is a side note. Moon activity dramatically.
Kriben Govender (01:02:08.307)So that's why we do something called the full moon protocol, which is we start to knock off parasites the day before the moon, the full moon, the day on the full moon and the day after. And I've seen some big parasites come out, my own anecdotal N1 research. So that's number one. And number two is that.
The microbiome, again, being this chemical factory, if you go down the path of doing a comprehensive whole genome sequencing like I've done, I've identified certain types of bacteria in my body that produce very unique vitamins and chemicals and minerals. So that's why I say it's nuanced.
For me, I have a certain type of bacteria that's very effective in producing an antioxidant called Urolithin A. So every day I consume pomegranate juice because that's what the bacteria uses to produce Urolithin A, which is very powerful for mitochondrial health and function. So this is the nuance. Another person, other people have something called a Gordini bacteria, which is very effective in
converting soy isoflavones. So that's why some people do well on soy, some people don't do well on soy, but having that knowledge of what these nuanced bacteria allow you to far more greater tell your diet to optimize your health. So these are two little nuggets. And thirdly, I would say the importance of polyphenols. So polyphenols
Not many people know this, but 80% of polyphenols can only be digested by your microbiome or your microbiota. So this is a nice easy hack to really diversify your bacteria. Consume as much polyphenols as possible. Green tea, chaga mushroom, pomegranate juice, cherry juice, what else? Chocolate, berries.
Kriben Govender (01:04:28.023)different types of berries, different types of fruits in moderation. So by introducing lots of different types of polyphenols is far easier than following the 30 vegetable rule, which is extremely difficult. But then, you know, polyphenols are also spices. So, you know, if you're making yourself a curry, that's going to be five different types of polyphenols in there at least. So this is a little biohack that I've thought about.
Josh (01:04:57.762)There was, I have to look into my podcast and go back for the 40 or so interviews we've done to date, but somebody had told me about a microbiome mash that they use for themselves. Well, they'll go and do exactly that, buy 30 different types of vegetables and throw them in, cook them all down, throw them into a blender and put them in little ice cube trays, just throw one in a smoothie every day and they got the variety. And it's a very clever way of getting things done. But Cribbin.
If someone was looking for you, first of all, who would be looking for more information from you and how would that person be able to reach you?
Kriben Govender (01:05:35.847)The easiest way to find me is on the socials, just at Gut Health Gurus. You can find me on Instagram or YouTube, Facebook, just at Gut Health Gurus. I have quite a large community of close to 18,000 Facebook members in my group. It's called the Gut Health Gurus group. People that typically reach out to me are ones that are struggling with their gut.
any gut sort of illnesses, ailments that want to connect with the community to sort of have a bit of a brain's trust on how we could tackle some of these issues. I don't do a lot of consults anymore. So I'd highly just recommend if you're struggling with your gut, connect with a community like the Gut Health Careers because I'm sure someone else, one of those 18,000 members is going through something that is very similar to you.
that perhaps might be a bit ahead on the journey than you that can help you along. I'm certainly not giving medical advice. I'm a nutritionist. I can help you with your diet, but I don't give any medical advice per se. And the other cohort would be people who are passionate about fermentation or are developing a keen interest in fermentation and want to learn more. You can jump into the group and post a question like, how do I make your fear or
My keffiyeh is splitting, what am I doing wrong? My sauerkraut went moldy, what am I doing wrong? Is this mold or is this a new scoby forming? Am I natto is not sticky, what can I do? Or how do I make tempeh? All these type of questions that I deal with on a daily basis.
Josh (01:07:15.518)Well, I love it. And I hope those people do find you at the Gut Health Gurus. I'll make sure I put that on the show notes as well. Cribbin, thanks so much for being here, sharing your expertise. You got years and years, decades of experience and information that we just really summarize into an hour. So I know we're only scratching the surface. So I hope our listeners are able to find more about you online if they wanna learn more about the stuff.
Kriben Govender (01:07:36.339)Cool. Thanks Josh. Thank you for having me.
Josh (01:07:39.022)It's been a pleasure. So I'm gonna press the stop button there, Cribbin. That's great. So...
Kriben Govender (04:32.659)Thank you for having me.
(00:01):
Josh (04:34.75)It's a pleasure to have you here. Now, Cribbin, obviously there's so much to talk about in the way of ferments or bacteria, the microbiome, food and modern food manufacturing, the gut-brain connection, like there's so much to get into. But before we do, I'd love to get a bit of context for our audience. Can you tell us a bit about your background, how you ended up here and what got you to doing what you're doing today?
Kriben Govender (04:58.203)Yeah, sure. It would be around at least 12 or 13 years ago. I was working in the food industry in multiple roles through my career. But towards the end of my career in the industry, I was working in procurement, extremely stressful role. At the time I had three young children. I was highly stressed and I just had a, just a crazy breakdown.
My marriage collapsed and I found myself alone in an apartment on the verge of suicide. You know, it was really close call for me. Combination of the stresses of life. And since I've done a lot more deep diving to discover what the actual cause I believe was, and primarily it was my gut. So, really digging myself out of that hole.
and putting my science hat on and looking at the literature and looking at the data on what was causing this feeling of depression. And I've carried depression for most of my life. Not now. I mean, I'm thinking back those 13 years ago. You know, since a kid, I've always been, you know, really, it was really noticeable, my change in my mental health.
If I'm a child being quite a happy, vibrant kid to then, you know, in my teenage years being quite a dark sort of character. And if we trace it back to what the actual moment that changed, I went on a family trip overseas and I got really sick. And during that trip, they put me on a massive dose of antibiotics. It was actually almost life threatening. I picked up Shigella dysentery.
I just lost 10 kilos. I was already skinny and I turned into a waif pretty much. But that dose of antibiotics, I can pretty much trace to the complete change in my mood personality because now we know it wiped out my gut microbiome. It destroyed my gut microbiome. And because my diet and lifestyle wasn't great, even being a food scientist, I mean, you know, we're not.
Kriben Govender (07:20.327)We're not perfect in terms of our diets because we have limited information, what's taught at universities and whatnot. I've done heaps more studies and research since then to work out what's a better diet for myself. But that destroyed my gut, which led me to this pivotal moment in my life where I almost took my life and then fortunately going to the next point and trying to work out what the issues were. And then
putting into strategies how I can address my mental health. And it wasn't just my diet in terms of the strategies that I used, you know, I use things like yoga, developed a yoga strategy, developed a very consistent exercise strategy, started to really focus on my diet, what I'm eating and.
The pivotal thing for me was actually discovering the importance of fermented foods, particularly in ancient food called keffia, which was, you know, from day one starting to consume keffia dramatically improve my.
I'll side note that I come back to the general methodologies for dealing with depression and anxiety that I was following in terms of the Western style medical type of route, which was seeing a psychologist, they go through some behavioral exercises, which were extremely helpful. And then also a suggestion to take
medications. So I refused to take the medication. So I didn't go down the Prozac and the Zoloft route. I decided to go through a very, as much as I can, a very natural path. Because typically if you start these drugs, it's almost like a lifetime of usage. So I didn't want to commit to that. And what was, in terms of the Western style of modern treatments, I did find the
Kriben Govender (09:38.127)So meditation, you know, that's where I learned how to meditate for the first time. That's where I learned to actually deal with my emotions. So going through exercises. And I remember a time where the psychologist at the time was like, you know, what's causing all this, this anxiety and depression and going through some exercises, like, you know, roll up a piece of paper and then, you know, confront that person. That's.
making you depressed. So it's like, imagine this pillow is like your, this person and now, you know, really a moat. And that I, it literally broke me down because the emotions that were welling up inside of me confronting this person for the grievances that have caused me and then rolling this piece of paper and then just expressing my emotions explosively. And it ended up at the end of it. I felt I was down on my knees in tears and my
Josh (10:16.13)Hmm.
Kriben Govender (10:37.103)hands, my fists were bloody because I rolled this piece of paper and just beat the crap out of this pillow for a good five to 10 minutes. And it was extremely cathartic. So, you know, these therapies are extremely powerful. You know, from then I even went on to start doing speech and drama classes, acting, did a whole year of theatre training. You know, really took that year off to...
Josh (10:48.974)Thank you.
Kriben Govender (11:06.047)heal myself. And then of course, delving into the literature, started my own company called Nourish Me Organics to take what I learned and bring it out to the world. And I think since going through the pandemic, we've seen an explosion in mental health crises across the world. So I think my message is really starting to resonate now, like 10 years.
plus into the future where it's really starting to resonate. That you can actually, by focusing on the gut and all these other modalities of course, really improve your mental health dramatically.
Josh (11:48.254)So it sounds like, if we go right back to the beginning of the story, you got sick on a trip, you were given antibiotics and wiped out your microbiome, and you went on this journey through really sort of the cognitive psychology of depression, worked on emotions, how to figure that out, but you're also working this uphill battle. Like you had your microbiome wiped out, which is responsible for up to 90% of your neurotransmitters. So for our listeners, we're talking dopamine, serotonin, things that give you these...
feelings of elation or focus or happiness and joy. And so you're battling this on a non-stop basis. You've got this cognitive uphill battle working against a chemical imbalance and you still manage to get yourself ahead. But did you find that was enough of a solution or is it like you're battling this forever until you get your biome checked?
Kriben Govender (12:40.015)I think initially there was a relief. You know, there was, there was hope because when you see tangible improvements in mood, they're very simple interventions. It's extremely positive. The thinking retrospectively, it was a pro it's a process that's ongoing for me because we all know how detrimental antibiotics are to the microbiome.
(00:22):
And then, but to repopulate and get these species back does take effort and time. Fortunately, now there's an explosion of products like psychobiotics, there's prebiotics that targets, particularly the gut-brain axis. So it's not a simple, easy fix where it's just a switch. You're absolutely right. It does take time. It is a journey to improve over time.
because it's like an axis. So it's not like a switch that's binary. There's progressive improvements. And I think doing this for so long now, I think my mental health is much, much improved. And the practices I still follow in terms of meditation and a strict meditator, in terms of my diet, I'm extremely strict. My lifestyle habits, very strict. So I can safely say now that my mental health
positive state.
Josh (14:11.766)So let's talk about that gut brain axis, right? Because obviously your mental health is in a positive state because you've done a lot of work on your gut, done a lot of work on yourself, a lot of therapeutic practices, a lot of things that you talked about were very cathartic. So you're releasing a lot of that emotion. So we can tell just from this conversation, right? Obviously there's a connection between your gut and your emotions, and not just chemically, but also through the gut brain axis. Can you walk us through how the gut, your emotions and your brain all interact?
Kriben Govender (14:41.427)That's a great question. You already touched on a little bit on the neurotransmitters, GABA, dopamine, serotonin. Serotonin I would say is being disputed in the literature, but I'm not completely convinced that it's not directly related to how you feel. Anecdotally for myself, I think by consuming products like kefir, which are loaded naturally in GABA and also tryptophan.
These are all precursor molecules that through a conversion cycle get converted into serotonin particularly and dopamine and then also melatonin down the track. But what's really important with that gut-brain axis is to activate that conversion process. We need to be managing light very carefully because the conversion process of this cycle
to serotonin to melatonin starts in the morning. So the first practice that I adopt that really helps me to start my day is I go and brush my teeth with minimal clothing out grounded facing the sun. Because what happens is that as you build up this, of course, through dietary means, you build up this tryptophan reservoir in your body, then to facilitate.
conversion, we need that early morning sunlight hitting the eyes to kickstart the process, because the body is yoked to the cycle of the sun. So on the same note, same cycle, as we start to get later in the day, and then the light starts to diminish, this is when the melatonin production kicks in, but the cycle starts in the morning.
So you can argue that the serotonin and melatonin, the precursors are produced in the morning. So it's all a cycle, complete cycle. So this, and going back to your question, the gut and the brain are connected via the vagus nerve. So there's this two-way talking that goes on. So if you cut the vagus nerve, the gut can still function. It has neurons of its own.
Kriben Govender (17:10.343)Just like there's neurons in the brain, there's neurons in the gut. So that's why it's typically called the second brain. I would argue perhaps it's the first brain because there's so many functions happening that are where it's not really relying on the brain. There's actually more communication going from the gut to the brain. So the gut is talking more to the brain than the brain is talking to the gut. So that's a basic primer.
And then in terms of the microbiome, the microbiome being almost like a little chemical factory. So it's like the microbiome are the collective of the different organisms that live in the gut, but also the collection of genes, the genetics. So holistically, it's called the microbiome and the microbiome is directly responsible for producing a lot of these neurotransmitters. So.
You know, if we do a stool test on someone, we could look at the potential of the microbiome to produce things like serotonin, acetylcholine, dopamine, because they are the ones that literally take the raw materials and then convert it into these neurotransmitter chemicals. So it's like a little factory. So in terms of your mental health, if you're deficient in the materials
to produce the neurotransmitters, then perhaps your mental health is not in its perfect state. But then if you lack the organisms to convert, then on the same token, the gut is then not able to facilitate the optimal mental health. So there's many layers to the story, but to simplify it, it all comes down, the easiest way to look at the microbiome
is just a little chemical factory. So it's your body's own pharmacy. That's probably the easiest way to put it. But for the pharmacy to work, it needs the right raw materials coming in. You need to have the right players that are on the team, but then the right external lifestyle factors to facilitate the factory working properly. So hopefully I didn't go down too many different tangents there, but it's a complicated.
Kriben Govender (19:38.425)issue.
Josh (19:39.662)It is very layered and it's really hard to explain. The question I gave you was kind of a crap question. It was really loaded. There was 19 different answers you could have gone down to. And I think you summarized it very well. It's really what is the connection between the gut and the brain? And that is a six month course minimum just to start understanding the basics of it. So I think you summarized it pretty well in just a couple of minutes there. So you mentioned this chemical factory. You mentioned how we're linked to the sun. As a sidebar,
Before I ask my next question, how do you feel about sunglasses?
Kriben Govender (20:13.203)I don't wear sunglasses. I mean, of course, some people with sensitivities need to be careful, you know, not staring in the sunlight. I actually like, I like my eyes being exposed to the sun, of course, in a safe way. I'm not going to sit and gaze up at the sun in the middle of the day. But I think the sun is like a, it's a huge electromagnetic field. That's the easiest way to put it. So.
It's an electromagnetic field that's really pushing out all these, almost these waves of light, if you want, or electromagnetism out to us. And then this has a profound effect on the biology of the Earth. You know, it's like if the sun wasn't there, life wouldn't exist. But then we, some people, make the sun into a villain.
But it's certainly not a villain. It's just like anything in nature. It can be detrimental in some ways, but by and large, very beneficial for life on the planet for all life. So I don't wear sunglasses because I want to be able to signal to my circadian biology, exactly what time of day it is and exactly what it should be doing at that particular time of day. So, you know, I try and expose my body to.
sunlight as much as possible.
(00:43):
Josh (21:45.058)I love that. Thank you. That's a good explanation. So I've talked to people about that before. It really is the way we are made, the closer we get to nature and natural, you don't see a lot of African tribes or jungle tribes wearing sunglasses because they don't need them, right? Their bodies, they get up with the sun, they fall asleep at sunset, and they're really well set in. They don't really have the same type of ocular diseases that we do for a myriad of reasons, but I wanna get your opinion on that as a sidebar out of my own curiosity, but.
My next question for you then, Cribbin, would be about, you mentioned a superfood, kefir. You mentioned GABA and tryptophan and serotonin and dopamine conversion and melatonin and all these different bits and pieces. Now, for someone like myself, I can't do dairy. I don't digest it very well. I can have like water buffalo milk, but not cow's milk. Even sheep and goat gets really spicy for me. So I got to be careful. But fermentation...
is this process that creates these bacteria in all kinds of foods. And so you're often described as a fermentation expert. So I have a line of questions for you. First, what makes an expert versus a rookie when it comes to fermentation? The next is what are some good substitutes for things like kefir that we could ferment for those with dairy issues?
Kriben Govender (23:01.203)That's a great question. I mean, I've no absolute grew on fermentation. I think the only thing that qualifies me more than the average person is my background in food science. So having a degree in food science, majoring in microbiology, I have a very in-depth interest, of course, and also a passion for fermented foods and a deep understanding of the science when it comes to the process of...
fermentation from a biochemistry perspective. So that's all that differentiates me from the average fermenter. I know what potentially can cause an issue in terms of food safety, perhaps, versus an average person. I can spot out different types of spoilage organisms versus dangerous organisms like moulds, probably better than the average person. But, you know, I'm not going to put myself on a pedestal.
to say I'm the BL at the end of all, I'm just like everyone else also learning. I'm just a little bit ahead in terms of the science of the process. And then in terms of your second question, it's a great question because I'll just preface it as just holistically saying that most of the research on fermented foods, the ones that actually have any clinical benefit have been done on dairy.
So that's just the nature of the way this food has progressed. So things like yogurts, you know, whether it's a BB, the BB 12 strain or, you know, some other LA five that have got good data behind them, something like a VSL number three, that's also dairy based product, tons and tons of clinical research, but that's not to say that the non dairy versions are any less as effective.
It just means that the dairy ones have had more research behind them, just given the amount of funding that's available in the dairy industry, versus the other ones that perhaps don't have the same level of funding to research and provide evidence-based information. Great alternatives, which we have seen in nourishment organics, we have obviously tens of thousands of customers. Anecdotally speaking, products like water kefir.
Kriben Govender (25:26.715)extremely effective. We've seen lots of good feedback from customers using it for various different issues. You've got things like coconut yogurts and of course you've got your fermented vegetable products, things like sauerkraut or kimchi. Then you've got your misos, you've got your natto. They're all going to be beneficial. But when it comes to the microbiome in fermented
Kriben Govender (25:55.655)the little factory and having these little team players working in that factory. What scientists do agree universally is that diversity is the most important factor for a healthy ecosystem, particularly the microbiome. So if you look at any ecosystem on the planet, if you went to a rainforest, then you, then you completely bombed the hell out of it. And then you went down to very minimal organisms. It's very unlikely.
that ecosystem is going to thrive. On the same regard, if you look at a pasture that's sprayed with chemicals and that needs a lot of human intervention to thrive, that's an example of something that has a low diversity of life in it. On the same token, if your microbiome is diverse, you've got more players on the team to actually
make these compounds that the body needs. So if you are deficient in a certain vitamin or a certain mineral or a certain element that the body needs, if one part of the microbiome is impaired for some reason, you have another guy on the team to chip in and help out. If the diversity is low, perhaps you don't have that teammate to back up.
then that results in deficiencies and in potential ill health in the body. So that's why we're coming back to full circle to fermented foods. Fermented foods are nice way, particularly if we're focusing on the non-dairy versions. It's a nice way to incorporate things like sauerkraut, kimchi, kombucha, water kefir, just to introduce some different players onto your team.
some different microorganisms to improve diversity. But what's important to understand and note is that not all organisms have the ability to colonize. So unfortunately, in terms of colonization, a lot of the research has been done on mouse models. And some bacteria, particularly lactobacilli, they've been reclassified now to different names, but I'll go back to the old names. Lactobacillus...
Kriben Govender (28:19.503)doesn't have the ability to colonize the human gut. So it doesn't mean that that's a bad thing. It just means that we need to be consuming it on a regular basis to get the benefit of the organism. Because what will happen is it'll exert its influence on the body, but then it's transient, it'll pass through the stool, and then it'll no longer be there. So that's why regular consumption of things like coconut yogurt,
Water kefir, kombucha are extremely beneficial to someone that's on a non-dairy based diet, equally as beneficial as a dairy based diet.
Josh (29:02.182)You mentioned that these probiotics pass through and don't culture, and that's been something that's been up for debate. Obviously, the research is coming out on a lot of them. They used to think they did, and they said they didn't. Now they're saying, well, it's some strains, not all strains that will culture. The ones that are used in ferments.
Right, obviously for our users who may not be familiar with the ins and outs of bacteriology, they're pretty common ones you might find in probiotics, the ones you might find in yogurt, like your roiteries, or like you said, your acidophilus or bacillus strains. Now those ones are kind of your fundamentals. You'll find those in most probiotics, but in your experience, do most over-the-counter probiotics actually get into the body in culture or are they just like these other ones where they're very transient, they kind of come in, they're there for a day or two doing their job, then they're out.
Kriben Govender (29:48.743)This is a very interesting question. I have a broad, a broad statement when it comes to any form of supplementation. I just think that the ones that you typically find in the supermarket or if you find, and that's equally general supplements, you know, like vitamins and minerals and all sorts of other beneficial, potentially beneficial chemicals, the ones that are on the countertop
typically going to be weaker and less rigorous in terms of their research. Because I've, I've seen how a lot of these products are manufactured. There's very minimal testing and trials and things like off that nature done on these products versus a practitioner based product, which is typically more expensive, typically dispensed by a healthcare practitioner.
But these tend to be much more well studied, much better quality control behind them, and more likely that they're going to be efficacious in the body. So a lot of the ones that you tend to find in the supermarket or the pharmaceutical shelf that you can just go and buy. I hate to say it, but most of the time is they're just taking buzzwords and putting it in the bottle. That's the easiest way I can put it.
(01:04):
There's very little rigor in how these products are made. A lot of them will come, especially in Australia, will come under the food regulations, which are not as stringent with say a pharmaceutical product. So unfortunately, most of them are not worth their weight in gold. That's why I'd steer people towards products that have clinical trials, something like a VSL-3, obviously dairy-based and not suitable for everyone.
Something like a Megaspore biotic, if you're looking at a spore-based product. Biotiquest, you know, something like a sugar shift, very great or powerful al-Ruteri strains used in that. And just pick something that's practitioner-based. That's the easiest way you know you're going to get a decent dose level, you know, with any probiotic or any medicine, the dose really matters.
Kriben Govender (32:10.043)You know how much you're taking, how much is actually in that pill, makes a huge difference to the biological outcome on the other end. So just taking a basic probiotic off the shelf is probably not going to cut it. I think if you, if you're conscious of your wallet and you're trying to be more economical, certainly making your own fermented foods is going to be much more cheaper than just picking one off the shelf and then hoping it's going to work. So that's my advice.
Josh (32:41.55)So I do want to actually get into making your own ferments. Before we do, I want to just ask one more question here. You know, we spent a lot of time talking about depression and the gut brain axis and how it's connected in the chemical factories that produce these things. And you talked about psychobiotics. Can you dive into that a little bit more, what they do and how they interact with the brain?
Kriben Govender (33:03.571)That's a great question. I've also interviewed on my podcast a guy by the name of Dr. Ted Dynan. This was, I think it's close to at least seven or eight years ago, when the field of the psychobiotic concept started to emerge. It was out at the University of Cork. This turns out that there's certain strains. You highlighted this very eloquently.
are right down to the most accurate version of a bacteria. It's like saying, you know, the dog species versus going right down to a chihuahua. So we know exactly what that dog is capable of, what its attributes are. On the same token, you can also consider bacteria in the same way. So there are certain strains, so let's say chihuahuas,
ability to produce certain neurotransmitters, certain compounds that could be beneficial. Something like certain bifidae bacteria strains can produce a lot of tryptophan, for instance. The way they are functioning is that they're increasing the reservoir of tryptophan in the body to then facilitate that conversion of tryptophan to serotonin, to melatonin.
So this is one mechanistic idea on how these things work. And if we go right back to the early days when they were looking at these things, scientists could actually transplant, it's a rodent model admittedly, but they could transplant a depressed microbiome into a germ-free microbiome, like using mice.
Kriben Govender (35:00.823)No microbiome essentially. And then all of a sudden having the depressed microbiome could then exhibit signs of depression. So this is how they connected the dots that the microbiome could potentially be involved in how your brain functions and your mental health and your wellness. So in terms of coming back to psychobiotics now, it's like a gold rush. You know, so there's all these companies now working.
very hard in the background to come up with this magic pill. But fortunately, there is some great products in the marketplace already. Microbiome Lab have a product called Dual, which has two strains of psychobiotic organisms. I use that myself and it really does help my mental health. Because I know particularly looking at my own stool sample, I do have deficiencies in Bifida bacteria. So then it all comes back to understanding
what that microbiome picture looks like, and then filling in deficiencies. So the trap is, if you're not deficient, by taking a psychobiotic or taking any supplement is not gonna be beneficial. It's only if you have a deficiency where you need supplementation to fill in the gap. Sorry, you were gonna ask a question.
Josh (36:21.39)Hmm. No, you're great actually. It wasn't much of a question I was gonna say. It's really unfortunate for the mice that we can use them in studies so efficiently, but really fortunate for the human race that we can put them in cages and do this kind of stuff. There's so much to figure out and understanding psychobiotics and how they influence our moods and our emotions. And I guess I describe it very simply. It's like we eat, we poop. What we eat, our bacteria eat and they poop.
They either poop good things for us or bad things for us. And based on the balance that we have and what's going on, that's what we're gonna determine. We're gonna poop good moods or they poop bad moods. They poop vitamins or they poop toxins. It's really that simple. But there's so many different ways to damage a microbiome. So I'm curious, what are the foods that you see might lead to...
mental health issues, psychological issues like depression, what kind of foods or lifestyles or behavioral patterns can damage our gut which will influence those moods.
Kriben Govender (37:24.795)I can speak to my current state of understanding, because I think that'll be most beneficial for your audience. In terms of the ones that damage it, number one on that list are going to be processed foods. So any form of ultra-processed food, which is laden in various chemicals or oxidized seed oils, emulsifiers, artificial sweeteners.
In said medications as well, I'd say non-steroidal anti-inflammatories, you know, off the counter, ibuprofen, paracetamol. I'll add that in the same bucket, but all these that I've mentioned have got fairly solid evidence-based information to show that they disrupt the microbiome.
Josh (37:59.906)like your ibuprofen and stuff.
Kriben Govender (38:17.019)So it comes back to a very simple ethos. You know, we know some of these processed foods or these elements of processed foods can damage the microbiome. The easiest way is to try and go back to how we used to eat, how our ancestors used to eat, starting to eliminate a lot of these processed-based foods, especially fast foods, you know, quick service restaurants, really cheap and nasty type foods.
processed foods off the shelf, I always tell my audience and my clients that I see is to tend to avoid the center aisles of a supermarket because this is where all the processed foods typically live, whereas in the outer ends of the supermarket is where your fresh foods live. So going back to fresh foods, learning how to prepare food for yourself, the next level, growing your own gardens, going to farmers markets.
preparing your own foods at home, making your own fermented foods. These are all the things that are most damaging and this, this is the strategy on how to actually overcome it. So that's the most, the number one most damaging thing I'll think of. And of course, antibiotics, you know, that would be a very close second. And typically we get a bit of a sniffle. I've got a little bit of a sniffle at the moment. So the typical person would run to the
Doctor would get a prescription of antibiotics and then bomb your gut, bomb your microbiome. Of course, antibiotics are important in certain cases, so they should not be excluded if you've got severe infections. But just general, you know, malaise, it's very beneficial not to try and avoid it as much as possible because there is a consequence from taking it.
(01:25):
Kriben Govender (40:13.015)antibiotics into your diet is actually for meat. So a lot of the livestock, especially things like farm salmon, they can't survive without antibiotics. So they're literally bombarded with antibiotics. Of course, the antibiotics then pass on to the flesh and then you consume it. On the same token, you know, these are modern type of farming practices discovered a long time ago that if they.
pump a lot of antibiotics, particularly, you know, it's not going through an injection. They just put it into the feed. The feed itself for many producers is loaded with antibiotics, tetracyclines I think they're called. So what they discovered by doing this, it actually fattens the animals. It makes them grow faster. So they use it more as a commercial intervention for profits rather than to keep the animal healthy.
So a lot of the meat that you consume, you gotta be very conscious of. Ask these producers, these farmers, are you using antibiotics? Is it grass-fed versus grain-fed? If it's grass-fed, it's more likely to not have antibiotics. Grain-fed, obviously this is where the antibiotics are being added. So it's just being conscious of what you're putting in your mouth, antibiotics, extremely close second.
I'm trying to think of anything else that's really damaging.
Josh (41:36.866)Please.
Well, there's so many, I mean, smoking and alcohol and stress and what were you going to say?
Kriben Govender (41:42.815)Yeah, I was going to say it's a nuanced topic as well, because one man's medicine is another man's poison. And that's what I've discovered by looking at, you know, hundreds and hundreds of microbiomes through testing and through my own clients, that the advice that I provide one person could be completely counterintuitive to the second person purely based on their microbiome
Kriben Govender (42:12.251)You know, the next layers down become very nuanced. You've got the general rules, you know, things like you mentioned, healthy lifestyle, good sleep, you know, lack on the flip side, lack of sleep or poor lifestyle or alcohol, smoking. These are all generalistic holistic health terms that influence all aspects of health. But as you dig deeper and deeper, it becomes more nuanced. So one man's
Medicine is another man's poison and vice versa. So the microbiome is extremely nuanced
Josh (42:49.406)Yeah, I mean, if we look at one to 2000 strains and seven to 9000 species, you can surmise there's anywhere there's roughly 18 million different types of bacteria. And obviously there's trillions of those ones. And so it really becomes this, this massive ecosystem. I mean, the average human's got three to five pounds of bacteria sitting in their gut, which is immense. So
Right now, I mean, technology only really allows us to measure about 50 out of the 18 million. So we really do just have a grain of sand on the beach. But it's enough to sort of get a handle on the complexity of it so we can at least have a bit more respect for it, even though we can't measure it in 2023 with all the technology we've got, we can't conclusively measure microbiome, at least we know to pay it some freaking respect, rather than just bomb ourselves for antibiotics and junk food. But the crib and going back to
depression and mood, some other nuances around there. If you are able to answer this question through your own research or qualifications, really, I guess my question in a lot of these cases, is it the chicken or the egg or both? If somebody's dealing with depression, which leads to stressful situations, stressful moods, anxiety, elevated cortisol, inflammation in the gut, and by that, a damaging to their microbiome, or someone like yourself who's pumped full of antibiotics, then damages.
the microbiome which leads to these symptoms of depression. It's very pronged. Where do you see depression coming from in the clients that you work with, that you've seen in research? Is it primarily other causes that the microbiome can assist or is it primarily the microbiome causing the depression or at least the vast majority of it?
Kriben Govender (44:32.179)I think the vast majority is just the modern way of living. It's just the very stressful nature of life, I think is the first starting point for most people. Not knowing how to deal with emotions is another common thread that I see. So I think the first, the most obvious thing is, is typically the one that is best to focus on, you know, am I getting enough sleep?
Am I getting enough sunlight in the morning? Because obviously sun is deeply yoked to how you feel. Am I eating the right diets? These are all the very common threads when it comes to causative actions for having poor health. Am I exercising enough? You know, these are all very important drivers. And then once you tackle those things, then you can go down.
further in the rabbit hole. So assuming, okay, my diet's great. I'm still feeling bad. I'm exercising. I'm still feeling terrible. I'm not binge watching Netflix. I'm actually living quite a balanced life. I'm not super stressed at work, you know, and then you go down to the next layer and the next layer, the next layer, and then you get down to the, it's almost like thinking of it as like an 80, 20 raw, like a Pareto analysis. It's like 80%.
80% of things are going to cause that the major impact on the body. So once you cover the 80%, then you can go down to investing in something like a stool test, which is going to cost hundreds of dollars and then to deep dive really into your microbiome to see where those deficiencies are, particularly in neurotransmitter production. So the most logical is tackle the big ones first.
and then go down to the layers. And then once you identify you have deficiencies in the microbiome, then you can look at B vitamins supplementation, magnesium, psychobiotics. Cute dog.
Josh (46:43.935)Yeah, little wiener dog Bruce, he sits behind me every episode.
Kriben Govender (46:48.844)Hopefully that answer made sense. It could really early on just be the microbiome that's impaired, but I think we need to tackle the obvious things first because these are the easiest and most effective ones to get a hold of because ultimately, even if you have the perfect microbiome, but your lifestyle factors are terrible, you're still going to feel terrible.
it's not going to help you. So you got to get the simple stuff right first.
(01:46):
Josh (47:23.246)Well, let's talk about buffering out that microbiome a little bit. Like you mentioned earlier, recolonizing these species, especially if you've dealt with this, you know, as a kid, antibiotics, if you were maybe born C-section or not breastfed, there's a lot of factors right from early childhood and birth that will influence your current microbiome and what you end up having as an adult, that sort of blueprint. But we can modify things, even like temporary, like you said, with ferments and other bacteria we can consume.
And I noticed you actually did a interview with Dr. William Davis and you talked about the bacteria and he and I actually did a great talk about his SIBO yogurt. I'm sure you're familiar with that. So there's lots of ways to utilize bacteria. You can make your own yogurts, you can ferment your own foods, you can make juice, right? As long as there's no preserves and put probiotics in there and they will culture and grow. And it's really quite amazing. But let's talk about some of these bacteria. Number one.
when you're fermenting at home. I've heard of people making kombucha that ended up making them very, very sick. So it was obviously ways you can screw it up. So can you walk us through how to ferment? Is there any way to know what bacteria is in those ferments? And how do we make sure it's safe?
Kriben Govender (48:38.035)The easiest way to ferment is to go down the tried and true path. So you've got something like, for instance, water kefir or milk kefir. They're loaded with billions and millions of bacteria. So they're going to do the work for you and make sure that the product at the end of it is going to be safe. So this is the tried and true path. The kefir.
Kriben Govender (49:07.847)getting sick from it, it can happen. What typically happens with kombucha making and people getting it wrong is they don't use enough starter tea. So say for instance, you're going to make a batch of kombucha, a liter batch. That means you're going to have a scoby and a hundred mils of fermented, like a very acidic starter tea. So most of the time, when someone gets it wrong, they try and make a five liter batch.
with a hundred mils of starter tea and a scoby. So there's just not enough bacteria, yeast entering into the ferment. There's not enough pitching. It's a common term we use in fermentation. There's not enough pitching. The acidity is not coming down fast enough. And then you've got competitive mole species then starting to dominate and potentially make a poisonous type of product. But if you impart enough bacteria and enough acid production,
rapidly, that's going to take any safety concern away from the product. The faster you acidify, the safer the product. Say for instance, you're fermenting some sauerkraut. So the key driver there is going to be the quality of the cabbage. Then are you adding enough salt? Are you processing the product to make the sugars in the cabbage accessible to the bacteria?
to then convert the sugar into lactic acid rapidly. So my recommendation there for novice is use a statoculture. So use the salt. You can use something like a Caldwell statoculture. You pitch the lactobacillus into the product so you're not relying on the natural ones if you're a novice. That way the acidity comes down fast enough. So we wanna get that acid level down quickly. Say within
five or six hours really rapidly bringing it down. By bringing the acidity down and having enough competitive organisms in the product, that will suppress any negative types of bacteria or pathogens. So a lot of, for instance, a product like kefir, the kefir grains have been around for kefir or kefir, how you want to say it, have been around for thousands of years. People have passed this down from generation to generation. It's a tried and true product.
Kriben Govender (51:34.523)But a lot of the key for organisms, for my research, this is something I've heavily researched, a lot of the key for organisms will produce their own antimicrobial compounds. So they're producing compounds, again, little chemical factories, producing compounds that are suppressing organisms that are gonna compete with them. And this is what keeps this biofilm, you can call it quorum sensing, that's another term that's used to...
identify or articulate how these organisms communicate with each other to look after their community and make sure that they are then safe and passing on their genes. So these are just basic things, you know, pitching, having enough organisms, going into the ferment that are beneficial, and secondly, acidifying the product as quickly as possible.
Josh (52:31.01)So if someone is a novice and they want to rely on, they said like a bacteria they can get their own, would you recommend just buying a proper, again, practitioner grade, not just some over the counter grocery store garbage, but would you recommend starting with a single one strain of bacteria? Can they buy a multi bacteria probiotic capsule that's got 14 different strains and use that to start the ferment? What would you recommend?
Kriben Govender (52:56.599)think the easiest way to approach this topic is to identify what your goal is. So some single strains like L-routerie are extremely well studied for various different elements. So if you are one of those people that are suffering from that element, picking that strain is going to be highly beneficial. So if you're targeting a particular illness, sure, go for it.
Again, a practitioner-based product, something recommended by Dr. William Davis or Martha Cullen from Biotique Quest, are all great products, specifically for Routery. Then others might just be like, I want to introduce a bit of Lata bacillus and a bit of Bifida bacteria because I heard they're good. So in that case, that's also perfectly fine. That's more a general health type of approach.
In that case, I would go for something like a VSL3, multistrained in terms of lactobacillus and lymphobacteris, clinically studied, evidence-based. So that's the one I'd be going for. So it really comes down to what the issue is. Is it a specific problem or illness, or is it general health? But holistically speaking, I would say that the ones from the countertop
are most likely not going to be that beneficial.
Josh (54:29.926)And of course, for our listeners, make sure you ferment in glass, not plastic. Guys, don't ferment in plastic. All that acidity will draw junk out, so make sure you use glass. But, Kribben, what can you ferment? I mean, is this like Frank's Red Hot, like put that shit on everything? Can you ferment any vegetable? Like, what vegetables shouldn't be fermented? Which ones are good for fermenting? Or does it matter at all?
Kriben Govender (54:35.665)Mm-hmm.
Kriben Govender (54:39.974)Absolutely.
Kriben Govender (54:54.439)Well, anything can be fermented in terms of vegetable type products. Meats can be fermented. You look at something like a salami, which is fermented. Coffee is fermented naturally. Chocolate is fermented. So anything can be fermented. The answer to your question depends on the level of complexity and the risk involved. So something like a sauerkraut, which is made of cabbage,
So they're easy to ferment and safely ferment. Whereas something like a potato might not be as easy to ferment, you know, just based on the available sugars in the product. So I think if you're an expert in fermentation, by all means, go and try and ferment, run experiments and fermenting different things. It's perfectly fine. If you're a novice, I think stick to the tried and true ones.
(02:07):
Yeah, like kimchi, sauerkraut, natto, miso. These are all tried and true products with a lot of history behind them. And also a lot of support. There's a lot of recipes online. There's a lot of communities online that talk about these different products. If it's some obscure product, like you're trying to ferment.
piece of whale or something, if you want to think of something completely obscure, then you're kind of on your own. You're running your own n equals one experiment and you're kind of hoping that you're not going to food poison yourself. So that's my recommendation.
Josh (56:18.158)Hehehehe
Josh (56:23.561)Right.
Josh (56:31.394)If any of our listeners happen to get themselves on, you know, their hands on 50 grams of a two ton whale, let me know and we'll make sure we get you an expert for sure. Talk about risk and you said fermenting meat. I didn't even think about salami. My first thought is like steak. That sounds extraordinarily risky. I wouldn't feel comfortable fermenting my own cabbage at this stage, let alone a piece of meat. Like what happens if I were to ferment like...
half a pound of steak. What's that going to come out as?
Kriben Govender (57:04.591)It is possible. I mean, it's just like a fermented sausage. You'd have to really grind it up into a fine mince, almost like a sausage type mince. You would need to use a starter culture as well. You'd need to get a hold of a very specific starter culture developed for meat. And then you could very safely do that. Because what you're doing is just dropping the pH of the meat.
from a fairly neutral pH down to an acidic one, something like below four.
Josh (57:40.659)Okay, so make sure you get a pH kit by the time you pull your ferments out to eat them. Test that they're all right.
Kriben Govender (57:46.131)I think that from memory as well, you also need to add dextrose. So because there's not enough sugar in the meat to feed the starter culture, so you need to have the meat, which is going to be primarily protein. Then you have to add dextrose as a food substrate for the starter culture and the starter culture. So that's how you ferment meat.
Josh (57:51.608)to feed the bacteria.
Josh (58:07.618)very sensible. And one last question for you, I know we've talked a lot about depression and its role in bacteria and how the gut-brain axis communicates and all these different chemicals. Do you know much in the way in your field of expertise or even experience in the way of trauma, PTSD or complex PTSD and how it connects to the gut bacteria?
Kriben Govender (58:30.215)I don't have any personal experience with the PSTD or even dealing with clients with that particular illness, but I can speak broadly and generally, you know, these, these traumatic events in our lives are, are stuck in our bodies. And definitely I think creates a, a sense of being, so a sense of identity. It almost becomes part of us.
but also from a neurotransmitter biochemistry point of view, you know, if you form this sort of idea of who you are, having this stuck in your body, I think it's not a leap to assume that it's going to have an impact on how the body functions and certainly how the microbiome functions. So, you know, if you're struggling with that particular element, I think by dealing with it is going to be a big deal.
certainly help you be a more optimized version of yourself. 100%. So, you know, there's, fortunately these days that things like MDMA that has been studied psilocybin mushrooms that have got particular studies in terms of PSTD, highly effective, you know, so definitely explored, but also cognitive behavior therapy, working with a therapist, dealing with these traumas.
dealing with these issues to learn how to heal.
Josh (01:00:04.038)Very interesting. Well, my last question, Kriben, for you, is there anything that we haven't talked about? Any topics we haven't gone over? Anything you'd like to mention to the audience listening about depression, bacteria, neurotransmitters, the gut brain, anything at all?
Kriben Govender (01:00:25.851)So you froze there for a second.
Josh (01:00:27.922)Oh, perfect timing. So is there anything, is my wrap up question, is there anything that we haven't talked about relating to the bacteria, depression, microbiome, ferments, gut brain access, any of these things that we haven't discussed that you'd like to mention to the listeners before we wrap up?
Kriben Govender (01:00:29.683)Hehehehe
Kriben Govender (01:00:45.427)Sure. A couple of things. I love this question because it allows me to talk about my current state of understanding and also this answer would have been very different probably a year or two ago. I think it's very important to understand that there are things that we don't know. I think there's a profound effect on seasons, on even esoteric topics such as the moon.
(02:28):
position of the stars in the sky. I think this, in my mind, undoubtedly affects how we feel when it comes to mental health. So that's something I probably wouldn't have talked about a couple of years ago, being a scientist. But I think I've matured enough to
Be humble to appreciate that I know very little. I know absolutely nothing in this infinitesimal cosmos. My knowledge is so limited. I know nothing. So I can't assume that these things don't have an effect. So I appreciate the position of the moon, the sun. Also, things like the moon. This is a side note. Moon activity dramatically.
Kriben Govender (01:02:08.307)So that's why we do something called the full moon protocol, which is we start to knock off parasites the day before the moon, the full moon, the day on the full moon and the day after. And I've seen some big parasites come out, my own anecdotal N1 research. So that's number one. And number two is that.
The microbiome, again, being this chemical factory, if you go down the path of doing a comprehensive whole genome sequencing like I've done, I've identified certain types of bacteria in my body that produce very unique vitamins and chemicals and minerals. So that's why I say it's nuanced.
For me, I have a certain type of bacteria that's very effective in producing an antioxidant called Urolithin A. So every day I consume pomegranate juice because that's what the bacteria uses to produce Urolithin A, which is very powerful for mitochondrial health and function. So this is the nuance. Another person, other people have something called a Gordini bacteria, which is very effective in
converting soy isoflavones. So that's why some people do well on soy, some people don't do well on soy, but having that knowledge of what these nuanced bacteria allow you to far more greater tell your diet to optimize your health. So these are two little nuggets. And thirdly, I would say the importance of polyphenols. So polyphenols
Not many people know this, but 80% of polyphenols can only be digested by your microbiome or your microbiota. So this is a nice easy hack to really diversify your bacteria. Consume as much polyphenols as possible. Green tea, chaga mushroom, pomegranate juice, cherry juice, what else? Chocolate, berries.
Kriben Govender (01:04:28.023)different types of berries, different types of fruits in moderation. So by introducing lots of different types of polyphenols is far easier than following the 30 vegetable rule, which is extremely difficult. But then, you know, polyphenols are also spices. So, you know, if you're making yourself a curry, that's going to be five different types of polyphenols in there at least. So this is a little biohack that I've thought about.
Josh (01:04:57.762)There was, I have to look into my podcast and go back for the 40 or so interviews we've done to date, but somebody had told me about a microbiome mash that they use for themselves. Well, they'll go and do exactly that, buy 30 different types of vegetables and throw them in, cook them all down, throw them into a blender and put them in little ice cube trays, just throw one in a smoothie every day and they got the variety. And it's a very clever way of getting things done. But Cribbin.
If someone was looking for you, first of all, who would be looking for more information from you and how would that person be able to reach you?
Kriben Govender (01:05:35.847)The easiest way to find me is on the socials, just at Gut Health Gurus. You can find me on Instagram or YouTube, Facebook, just at Gut Health Gurus. I have quite a large community of close to 18,000 Facebook members in my group. It's called the Gut Health Gurus group. People that typically reach out to me are ones that are struggling with their gut.
any gut sort of illnesses, ailments that want to connect with the community to sort of have a bit of a brain's trust on how we could tackle some of these issues. I don't do a lot of consults anymore. So I'd highly just recommend if you're struggling with your gut, connect with a community like the Gut Health Careers because I'm sure someone else, one of those 18,000 members is going through something that is very similar to you.
that perhaps might be a bit ahead on the journey than you that can help you along. I'm certainly not giving medical advice. I'm a nutritionist. I can help you with your diet, but I don't give any medical advice per se. And the other cohort would be people who are passionate about fermentation or are developing a keen interest in fermentation and want to learn more. You can jump into the group and post a question like, how do I make your fear or
My keffiyeh is splitting, what am I doing wrong? My sauerkraut went moldy, what am I doing wrong? Is this mold or is this a new scoby forming? Am I natto is not sticky, what can I do? Or how do I make tempeh? All these type of questions that I deal with on a daily basis.
Josh (01:07:15.518)Well, I love it. And I hope those people do find you at the Gut Health Gurus. I'll make sure I put that on the show notes as well. Cribbin, thanks so much for being here, sharing your expertise. You got years and years, decades of experience and information that we just really summarize into an hour. So I know we're only scratching the surface. So I hope our listeners are able to find more about you online if they wanna learn more about the stuff.
Kriben Govender (01:07:36.339)Cool. Thanks Josh. Thank you for having me.
Josh (01:07:39.022)It's been a pleasure. So I'm gonna press the stop button there, Cribbin. That's great. So...
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