February 17, 2023 • 49 mins
Kelis Rowe, author of young adult fiction novel Finding Jupiter, talks about balancing your needs with those of your family. She also shares her journey to becoming a writer.
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Rhonda Coleman Wandel (00:14):
Hi, I'm Rhonda Coleman Wandel. And
welcome to my podcast, where wecelebrate the rich life journeys
of women, and the purposefulpivots they make on those
journeys. On today's episode,I'm talking to Kelis Rowe,
author of finding Jupiter, ablack teen romance novel. We'll
(00:37):
explore police's road tobecoming a writer. And the
challenge of balancing takingcare of yourself was taking care
of others. Kelis, welcome to thepodcast.
Kelis Rowe (00:51):
Hi, I'm so happy to be here with you. Yes, I'm so
excited that you could be ontoday.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (00:58):
I can't wait for the listeners to hear
about your journey. And you justhave so many wonderful golden
nuggets. So many pivots thatyou've made throughout your life
and career. And so I'm excitedto to get into that and discuss
it. So let's just jump right in.
Okay, let's do it. Cool. Sowe'll start with a little bit of
(01:22):
background. You know, we want toknow where you grew up. Because
I know you're an author. Andyour book is based in your
hometown, your your first book,and we'll get into talking about
that. But tell us about whereyou grew up. How you grew up.
Okay,
Kelis Rowe (01:42):
yeah, I'm from Memphis, as you know. And I grew
up in a neighborhood in Memphiscalled White Haven. My parents
actually still live in the samehouse that I grew up in there
with my twin brother and myoldest sister. So Memphis city
girl. My both my parents worked,we were in a working class
(02:05):
family. You know, sometimes endsdidn't quite meet and we had to
make choices. So I wouldconsider my upbringing to be
lower middle income, at timeslower income. And, yeah, it was
a happy childhood church everySunday, you know, rollerskating
(02:26):
education was really importantin our home. You know, even
though my both my parents didnot graduate from a four year
university, they really stressededucation and reading it was
very important in my household.
So yeah, that was pretty much myupbringing in a nutshell. Yes.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (02:44):
Nice. And I have fond memories of that
house, some listeners, Elise andI are friends, longtime friends
in college. But I can remembermy mom dropping me off at your
house. And then I became anadult, you know, with my own
children kind of meeting up overat your, you know, with my
(03:05):
little people who fondlyremember Zach has a baby. That's
your oldest child of mine, andyour mom's super sweet. And your
aunt and Margie age? Yes. Supersupers Wait, memories of house.
Happiness. Alright, so yes, younoted that education was very
(03:28):
important for your family. Iremember you were a reader as a
kid. Can you talk about that?
Yes,
Unknown (03:37):
I was, from a very early age, I think all my
siblings, we were early readers,and avid readers, I lived
walking distance from thelibrary, Levi library in
Memphis. And, you know, backthen, when I was in fourth and
fifth grade, I would get out oflike to get out of the house, I
(04:01):
would ask my mom, if I could goto the library. Sure, honey, you
know, see you, you know, beforethis. You know, it was a
different time in place. But uh,yeah, fourth, fourth grade
walking down the street all bymyself and not the best of
neighborhoods. And I would justgo to the library and stay in
there until they closed I wouldbrowse. You know, the YA
(04:23):
section, the section that Iwasn't supposed to be in really,
I would read all the books. Inmy grade. I would enjoy all the
different performers andstorytellers and poets, they
would bring in entertainment andI live in. Yeah, libraries. They
were that library in particularwas my safe space. And even
(04:47):
through college, I my work studywas in the library. I wrote my
book in the library as an adultI libraries are my safe haven.
Yeah,
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (04:56):
I can relate to that. So you In high
school, you know, and it's timeto go to college. What were your
plans after high school?
Unknown (05:07):
After high school, I was going to be a flight
attendant.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (05:12):
So you weren't, so you weren't going to
go to
Unknown (05:15):
college. I talked about going to college because that's
what you know, students who likeI went to a Magnet Middle
School, and it was in the honorsprogram in high school, when
you're smart, and rates and yourstudents, you talk about going
to college. So I talked aboutgoing to college. But what I
really wanted to do, because Idecided that at 18, I can do
(05:35):
what I want. wanted to be aflight attendant, I wanted to
travel I jobs that have, youknow, very specific duties
spelled out and uniformsappealed to me very much.
Because I imagined that therewas security in working, that I
knew what I was going to bedoing every day. You know, my
(05:58):
job was clearly outlined for me.
So yeah, I wanted to be a flightattendant. So my senior year, I
went to a job fair that at thetime Northwest Airlines posted
to hire, and I learned that Iwas too tall, there was a height
limit, the height requirementfor airline workers, for flight
(06:20):
attendants. And I was I exceededthat. And I was devastated.
Because that was going to be myfuture wearing a uniform,
completing my job traveling. Andwhen I realized that that wasn't
going to be part of my future, Iwent into a deep depression. And
I actually didn't apply tocollege until after I graduate
the summer after I graduated.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (06:43):
So you had to start making pivots
early. I mean, you are, what1718 years old. And the world is
your oyster. You don't thinkthat there's anything you can
do? Right? Absolutely. You wereyou were gonna go be a flight
attendant. Like why not? Whycan't I do that? Then this big
(07:07):
FAA, you know, organization tellyou? No, ma'am. You cannot
because you're too tall,something that you can't
control. Like, you can't controlyour height. You and you can't
control another organization'srules. Yeah. And so and you've
(07:28):
just said that you likesecurity. So those are and so
how did you get through that?
Because that's a major, a majorblow.
Unknown (07:39):
I felt like it was actually just a lot of luck.
Honestly, I, you know, I waitedlater than everybody else to
apply to college. Even though Ihad a strong, you know, resume.
I was late. So I lucked out thatthe two local colleges were
still accepting, you know, theyhad Rowling acceptance. And so I
(08:02):
applied to them. I gotwaitlisted at one university,
and I got into my alma mater,our alma mater, which is where
we met. Yes, yeah, I would sayit was luck. I knew that I
couldn't not go now that my theone thing that was going to open
(08:24):
the world up to me was not apossibility. I knew I had to go
to college. At that point, itwasn't a choice. And I was very
lucky that I got that I got in.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (08:35):
Right. So you're focusing on college? What
was your major? Initially? Whatdid you think you wanted to do?
When I am? What did you end updoing?
Unknown (08:46):
Okay. Yeah, the easiest choice at the time for me was
psychology, just because I'dalways been told by friends and
family that I was, you know,very intuitive. And everybody
felt so comfortable with me. Iwas the person that everyone in
the family leaned on, when theyhad an issue or a problem or
didn't quite know how to go toanother family member, or
(09:07):
another friend, I was the, youknow, Hey, Rick, like kale. What
should we do? So I said, I takecare of people's feelings and
emotions pretty well, I'll studypsychology, I'll be a
psychologist. And pretty earlyon, there was one course that I
took that was basically thepurpose of the course was to see
(09:30):
you know, if you if this was theright role for you, it was
yourself as a psychologist, andas a counselor, and, you know,
ultimately it was it becameclear that I'm, I have a very
high level of empathy. And Iwould be the counselor who, you
know, had no boundaries. Iwouldn't want to bring all the
(09:52):
kids home with I want to meetall the clients for coffee. And
I would just be stressed stickout. So I pivoted to use your
word away from psychology tomarketing. I felt like
advertising. You know, there's alot of Psychology at work there.
So I figured I, I pivot and domarketing. Instead, I ended up
(10:15):
doing both.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (10:17):
Right. So your first major job out of
college, was in marketing. Socan you tell us about what you
did there and how you ended upthere?
Unknown (10:32):
Yeah, I, I had an internship, actually, my senior
year at CBU. That was in themarketing department, my focus
actually was market research. Iwas the person, you know,
receiving the surveys, and, youknow, putting in the data and
(10:54):
writing the reports. And when Ifirst got started, so after
graduation, my first job was asa market researcher, for a local
nonprofit organization. My firstjob in my field after college, I
was with the Texas labor force.
And I basically was one of thosepeople who were, you know,
(11:19):
punching those numbers, orcranking out statistics about
the workforce, the labor forcein the state of Texas, that Job
was very reliable, I knew what Iwas going to be doing every day.
I do like order, and you know,security and know what to
expect. But it was a little toomuch, knowing what to expect it
was very robotic. So I ended upwhere I landed, was in a local
(11:44):
advertising agency, doing marketresearch analysis for them. And
doing market research analysisfor marketing campaigns is a
little more fun than, you know,just doing the Labor Workforce
statistics.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (12:02):
Okay, so the skills that you used and
acquired in this fun marketingresearch position, can you talk
a little bit about those and howthey possibly transfer into
writing, which is what you donow? Yeah, well,
Unknown (12:18):
it's all, you know, a lot of observing, I'm reading,
um, kind of taking bits andpieces and creating something
new and meaningful. That No,that's very surface, but that's
the core of what of what I did.
And I think as a writer, thekind of writing that I do now is
really much the same thing.
(12:42):
Wherever I draw my inspirationfrom, you know, it's bits and
pieces of things, I've donethings I've, you know, thought
of people I've known, and kindof bringing those pieces
together and making creatingsomething meaningful, something
meaningful and, and new.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (12:58):
Right.
Yeah, I think that's great. Ithink it's great to be aware of
our transferable skill sets, aswomen. And because this helps
you pivot, you know, we don'thave to be stuck in one job for
the rest of our lives. You know,we have skills and transfer into
other things, you know,depending on how our interests
(13:20):
change. All right. Okay, so youare in a career marketing. You
love it, right? I know you so Iknow that you enjoy working and
being useful. But you also havedreams of having a family. And
(13:42):
at this point, you're married,and you want children. So I want
to get into you have a reallyrich motherhood journey. And for
career women, the motherhoodjourney in the career journey
are often intertwined. So you,let's talk about your first
(14:03):
child. And how long aftergetting married and wanting to
have a child did you have yourfirst job?
Unknown (14:16):
Yeah, we I was married.
Yes, thank you for saying that.
I backtrack a little bit tobacktrack a little bit. I did. I
always loved to work. I like tofeel useful. I rarely rarely
only had one job. There weretimes that I had three jobs. Are
there times that I had four jobsat one time. From the time I was
(14:36):
opened up to work i i like tofeel useful and to be useful. So
yes. So I worked for seven yearsbefore after college before I
got pregnant the first time. Isay that because my first
pregnancy ended in miscarriage.
And that was something you know,I don't have to talk a lot about
(14:58):
Got it. But that was somethingthat was pretty devastating.
Because once you know thatyou're pregnant, you know you
all these instant dreams kindof, you know, wrap in your head,
all the dreams you have for thislittle baby and the dreams you
have for your life and yourfamily. And at the time
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (15:15):
you start to I heard a woman say the other
day, you start to create anidentity, a future identity for
yourself as a mother, then whenyou have a miscarriage, it's
like not only does your childdie, but that future identity.
So it's damaged in within yousomehow, you know, it dies for a
(15:38):
moment anyway. That's, that'sdoubly painful. Yeah,
Unknown (15:45):
absolutely. Absolutely.
And I did a lot of you know,self blaming, I did a lot of
internalizing, you know, somepretty ugly and untrue thoughts
about myself as a woman. And soyeah, the next time I got
pregnant, it was three monthslater, I got pregnant with my
(16:05):
son. And I, you know, with nofear fearlessly, the dreams came
back. Myself, yeah.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (16:22):
I remember last time, you know, we
were talking about this, youtalked about being able to find
a silver lining in that incidentor that time. And that's such a
wonderful character trait thatyou have, you know, you
definitely acknowledge thepainful aspects of it, but you
(16:44):
find the silver lining and findthe strength to move forward.
So, you know, can you tell usabout the silver lining that you
saw, and
Unknown (16:56):
yes, I'll talk about the first silver lining, which
was that I can drink coffeeagain. So, pictured me with a
hot steaming cup of coffeeballed up in a chair crying and
sobbing, to my best friend onthe phone. You know, when I got
home from the hospital, that wasme. Beyond that, I, you know, we
(17:18):
worked, got back to work, and Igot pregnant again, three months
later. And I without fear, I washappy again, I had all the
dreams, you know, for myself,and my family and my little
baby, they all came back asstrong as ever. And I looked at
my career, I, you know, I'dalways wanted to be a working
(17:41):
mom, who was there for mychildren, the way that my mom
was, with the understanding thatI did want to take as many weeks
off as possible, legally, to bewith to be with my little baby.
And then I was going to, youknow, either work from home or
start a business or do somethingenterprising, but also, you
(18:02):
know, have my baby I was goingto be, you know, like, my mom
was, I was going to wear heelsand work and be a great mother.
But my son was born with atethered spinal cord. And he
needed surgery as a newborn. So,you know, when you when you hear
(18:24):
something like that, and youknow, at the time, he looks like
a perfect baby, you know, therewas no sign on the outside to a
untrained eye that anythingthat's going on. Right, but the
doctors, you know, thank God forthem. So, you know, the dreams,
the, you know, of my future selfof my baby, all that stuff,
(18:46):
just, you know, gets blurry,because what does this mean?
What does it mean, to do spinalcord surgery on an infant? What
is my life gonna look like? So,so yeah, I ended up being a stay
at home mom, not the kind thatI, you know, thought I was gonna
be initially but ultimately, Ifound a community and, you know,
(19:08):
my son recovered fully and I wasable to do be fulfilled in the
moment where I was, but I didhave to put my career and my
personal fulfillment on hold,because, you know, from the time
that they told me, my son had aspinal cord problem, I, I kind
(19:33):
of disappeared to myself,everything was about him. And
for him.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (19:38):
Yeah. And so this this phrase that you use
disappeared, you disappeared, I,you know, definitely one
listeners to hold on to thatwing because we're gonna come
back to that. That's a big partof what we're talking about
today, kind of when we disappearinto the void and our and other
(20:00):
responsibilities like our familyresponsibilities take take our
place. But, you know, Zackrecovered or your child
recovered from the spinal cordinjury, and pretty readily.
That's, that's, that was a blowbut tell us about other other
(20:23):
aspects of his development thatreally kind of change the
trajectory of your career path?
Unknown (20:31):
Yeah. So yes, he did recover very quickly. He had the
surgery as a newborn. And by thetime he was 11 months old, he
was released from any type oftherapy follow up care, you
know, they did the final X rayand said, he should develop, you
know, like a abled, typical, youknow, child, and, you know, that
(20:55):
was a big relief, I exhaled, I,you know, by then I had become a
very protective kind ofhelicopter toddler mom, you
know, holding him all the timeand wanting to protect him from
the world. But when we got thatreport, I started to say, Okay,
well, now I can, you know, I'llstay at home with him until
(21:17):
preschool, he'll go topreschool, I can go back to
work. And the older he got, thecloser we got to preschool age,
the more evident it was thatthat that was not going to
happen. classrooms were notenvironments that he was
particularly happy in, he had asensory processing disorder.
(21:41):
And, you know, the way that heprocessed, any kind of sensory
input just was not, it didn'tdeal with a classroom. So I
ended up homeschooling. And Idid that until he was 10 or 11
years old until he was in fifthgrade.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (21:58):
Yep. So let's talk about that the
decision to homeschool? Becauseif, if you I know I have, I have
three children myself, andhomeschooling them, you know,
for me, it's not an option.
They're big. Now they're like1819 20, they obviously haven't
(22:22):
always been that way. It justtakes so much of yourself to, to
do that, to do that. And, andalso work at the same time. So I
would find that incrediblychallenging. So can you talk
about your decision tohomeschool, Zach and, and the
(22:45):
challenges personally foryourself or your own personal
growth and development that camealong with that?
Unknown (22:54):
Okay, yes, I can say that, you know, fortunately, I
am married. And my husband, hisincome was enough for us to live
on one income. So I want to addthat because I know that that's
important in framing my story.
But, so, on the financial side,on the lifestyle side, I didn't
(23:17):
have those pressures. And alsobecause I am the type of person
who, you know, kind of throwsmyself into the task ahead of me
when it became evident that Iwas going to have to be, you
know, yes, a stay at home mom,but also the teacher. I threw
myself into it, you know, nobodyknew my son better than I did.
(23:43):
He was, you know, a highlyintelligent, you know, highly
gifted little guy. So, Iactually took a lot of pleasure
in, you know, showing his beinghis bubble. And last night, out
of a bomb group. I joined a momgroup because I wanted him to
have playdates and playmates andI did that for him. herself
because I needed a village aswell. And I threw myself into
(24:09):
it, you know, if you you lookup, you know, cheerleaders, stay
at home mom in the dictionary,you know, I was right. I was
right there. And it's kind oflike, I was happy to do it
because I felt fulfilled everyday. I knew that my son was
taken care of and happy. And youknow, that I had created this
(24:30):
world for him where he didn'thave the kinds of challenges
that was stressing him out, youknow? He was very free and happy
and I was fulfilled. But I wasalso not I was present for him,
but I wasn't I was not presentfor myself.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (24:50):
Yes. And I and I know that many of us,
you know, struggle with findingthat balance, right? Especially
high achiever. because we seeall of these wonderful things
that I want to provide mychildren with and opportunities,
and I want to be there everysecond, you know? Yes. And then,
(25:11):
you know, we put ourselves onput our put ourselves second all
the time and feel guilty when weput ourselves first. Yes. And
that's, that's just such a sucha difficult, I guess balance to
find, I feel like you found itnow with your second baby. And
(25:35):
yes, you found it. So I wouldlove for you to talk about how
you found, you know, the ballotsand how you, you know, give
yourself the green light to takecare of you first. So
Unknown (25:50):
I would love to talk about that. So homeschooling
mom, well, my son is in fifthgrade, he goes to, to public
school, I, you know, we take atrip of a lifetime to Africa, we
did three weeks in Africa. Andthen three weeks at my husband's
in my husband's home country,you signed the infant, and on
(26:13):
the after that and so we're athis parents home, wonderful,
family loving, just a great,great family. And everybody's
you know, like, okay, you know,Zach's going to school. Whereas,
you know, it's time to haveanother baby, whereas our
grandchild, kind of the runningtheme of time back home with
(26:35):
him. And obviously, we wantedmore kids. But the more that
conversation was happening, themore I was thinking, you know,
the closer Zachary got to gointo school, I was like, okay,
then now it's going to be myturn again, you know, what am I
going to do next? I go back towhat I was doing, you know, 10
(26:58):
years before, but me now by thattime, it was a whole new world.
I couldn't go back into marketresearch. And, you know, at the
same level that I left, I wouldhave a lot of learning to do.
And also, I hadn't been in theworkforce in a decade. And so I
would have to readjust to doingthat again. Right. It was
something that I was lookingforward to doing. It was such an
(27:20):
adventure that I was lookingforward to taking on. But the
closer we got to the end of thatvacation and coming home, I knew
that I was also getting closerto kind of not fading back in
like I was, you know, I faded toblack a decade ago, I was gonna
stay there, you know, I hadstarted writing a book, in two
(27:45):
years, two years prior to that,I started writing a book, like a
little seed of a book that I wasgonna write. And I had kind of
tabled it, because it's the kindof thing where, you know, I was
still you know, very much a stayat home mom. And, you know,
trying to eke out something formyself, but always, always,
always prioritizing my family.
But coming back home from thattrip, I realized that I'm gonna
(28:09):
have another baby, it's what Ineed to do. But more than that,
I need to finish this thing Ineed to go after this thing that
I wanted to carve out formyself, if I don't do it now.
I'm never going to do it. I'mgonna love my babies. But I'm
gonna be a sad mom.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (28:30):
Okay, so let's pause a minute. And unpack
this, because you've said somany wonderful things. So you,
your first child was ready to goback to school, you know. And,
at this point, 10 years havepassed since you were in the
(28:51):
workforce. And you knew that itwas your time, right? But then
you acknowledge, like, what Ileft in the workforce 10 years
ago, and no longer exists forme. So what am I going to do? So
I want to talk about you findingyour purpose, figuring that out.
And I love that you also saidyou were very excited and open
(29:13):
to the adventure of finding outright. Yeah. And so it was okay,
you know, to let go of whateverversion of yourself existed 10
years ago, and and look at thenew version of yourself and
figure out what your purposewas. So just how did you do
that?
Unknown (29:34):
Well, I, I can back up to when I started writing the
book, a friend of mine, awonderful friend of mine that I
met in a mom's group that Ijoined. She, you know, I bounced
a lot of my anxiety off of herand she was like, why don't we
make a vision board? And then atalanda Why don't we make a
(29:55):
vision board and so we had avision board party, just the two
of us. I love boards. So myvision board saved, it saved my
life. So you get to the core ofwhat's important of what you
want out of life. And for me, itwas so simple. You know, I
wanted to stay married, I wantedto have more babies, I wanted to
(30:20):
write a book. I wanted to travelwith my family, very simple
things, that when you put it onpaper, it's like, I don't, I
don't want a lot. But let meorder my steps towards these
things. So I feel important.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (30:36):
That's like goal setting, value setting
through that exercise, andfocus, like focusing, forcing
yourself to sit down and reallylook at who I am and what it is.
I want. Such a wonderful,wonderful exercise. I think
everybody should do it.
Absolutely. regularly. Yes. Yes,absolutely. Yeah. So how does
(30:58):
your vision board come to life?
Yeah, so
Unknown (31:05):
the easiest thing on my vision board to actually, you
know, work towards that I feltlike could materialize in time
that I could control was thewriting of the book. So I
started writing the book. And,you know, it was kind of a chop,
chop, you know, one step up to10 steps back, because I was
still homeschooling, I was stilla stay at home mom. But But I, I
(31:29):
had ignited this little sparkinside myself that I knew I was
working on something that wasgoing to be just for me. And so
yeah, we after we got home fromthat trip, I was really
determined to do it. It wasalmost like a race against, you
know, time because I was alsotrying to get pregnant. And so I
started writing this book. Andit's kind of like, once I threw
(31:52):
myself back into the book that Ihad started writing two years
prior, I threw myself back intoit with a sense of urgency. That
was really desperation,honestly, because I saw
depression, staring me down atthe end of this, if it didn't,
you know, if I didn't finishthis book that I was going to
self publish, I just wanted tofinish this book. So so that's
(32:16):
what I did. I threw myself intoit. Fortunately, you know, for
me, I, you know, I did end uppregnant. And I did end up
selling my book. In the sameyear, I think the year that my
book sold, was also the year Igot pregnant. And or the year my
book sold was the year that Ihad my baby, or something like
(32:38):
that. And it all lines up. Yes.
Yeah, the point is that, yeah,both things came together for
me, at a time when, when Ireally needed them to
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (32:49):
write, no, that's beautiful. It's
beautiful. And, you know, we'vetalked a bit about like,
throughout the podcast today,about kind of disappearing into
the void or disappearing intotaking care of your family and
(33:10):
your children and lose losingyourself essentially. And, and
then finding yourself again, andyou acknowledge that you were
not completely fulfilled by byignoring your needs. And and you
did not want, you did not wantto be a depressed mom, you did
(33:33):
just to not want to live thatlife. Yes. And you changed, you
know, you, you made sure thatthat you didn't. So that's
wonderful, that's wonderful.
Unknown (33:46):
And I also want to mention that, you know, pursuing
this dream that I had, with theknowledge that it was something
like deep down, but I felt likeI was I needed to do. I was
fortunate in that, you know,selling the book, made it
possible for us to hire a nannyso that I could continue to
(34:11):
write. And, you know, not havingused childcare with my son. You
know, I didn't have a lot oftime, time wasn't on my side to
kind of vet that a lot of peopleand work through my trust
issues. Yes. So we were verylucky that we met the perfect
(34:33):
nanny, who we found out afterthe fact, had grown up with a
dear friend of mine, who knewher family very intimately and
could vouch for her and thatreally made it possible for us
to invite this person into ourhome and, and trust that she was
going to be, you know,everything that my daughter
needed while I was away.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (34:54):
And that's a big thing for you
because I was there, you know,when you were raising your first
child and I I can see that youare putting all of yourself into
that, you know, you that you didnot. I mean, nobody could
babysit this. Mother, yourmother had to fly from Memphis,
(35:14):
Tennessee to Austin to keep yourchild because she would not let
anybody keep him.
Unknown (35:23):
Very grateful for cheap plane tickets, thankfully.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (35:28):
This is major growth for you to give up
that kind of control. Because torealize like that did not serve
that will not continue to serveme to just drain myself dry, you
know? Yeah, absolutely. Yes. So,people, okay, she sounds bougie
(35:49):
because she's got a nanny. Butno, no, this is a big, big deal.
A big growth for for Cal.
Absolutely.
Unknown (35:59):
Absolutely. And it's one of those things where again,
you know, there was a littlethread of desperation in there.
You know, I wanted my, my secondchild to have everything and my
first child had, but I was adifferent person. I had my
second child. So yeah, I had tofind a way to do that. And I'm
(36:23):
very fortunate in that I wasable to, to order it to manage
my life, organize my life in away that that served both of us.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (36:33):
Right, great. So let's talk a little
bit about your book, we've got alittle more time. What is your
book about? The title is findingJupiter? It's young adult
fiction. What's it about? Andwhat inspired you to write the
book like outside of yourpersonal, you know, goals? Just
(36:56):
the the content of the book,what inspired you to write it?
Unknown (36:59):
Okay, I'll start at the beginning. And I'll try to be
brief. But you know, I haven'talways read mostly I read adult
fiction. And when the HungerGames movies came out, I became
obsessed with that movie, Iwatched all the movies, I think
the third movie was out at thetime. And I watched the trilogy,
(37:20):
back to back to back, it wasalmost an embarrassing amount of
times.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (37:28):
When books were out, and I read them
back to back, it was just like arefuge for me from from the law
school, you know, law schoollife.
Unknown (37:39):
And so I discovered the books after I had, you know,
gave it given into my obsessionwith the movies, because I was
like, I'll experience this storydifferently. I read the series,
back to back to back. And I hadlistened to the series back to
back. And I went, Okay, therehas to be more out there and
why. So I started readingCollins, she's a wonderful
writer. Absolutely. Excellent.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (38:03):
Elevated writing for young adults.
Unknown (38:05):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
So yes. So once I got my feel ofHunger Games, I branched out and
I read more fantasy books andseries. And one day, I saw a
book cover for the cover of thebook calling my name by Leanna
to money. And the cover is verysimple. It's just a black girl.
She's standing, you know, facingthe side looking to the side.
(38:28):
And it's just a black girl inthe middle of this book. And it
was a black girl who could havebeen me, you know, she had on
Chuck Taylors she had, you know,it could have been me. And um,
how old am I at the time, I'mlike, I'm 40 at the time, and
I'm looking at this book cover,and I'm like, wow, you know, so
why a novel I that was somethingthat I'd never seen as a girl.
(38:53):
And the book cover made apromise to me. So I picked up
the book, I bought the book. Andwhen I got home, and started
reading, you know, the firstpage I you know, the book
fulfill this promise it fulfillthis promise to me, it was about
me. It was a it was a 12 yearold girl at the time. But it was
(39:15):
about me for the first time I'mreading this book, after seeing
that image on the front. And Iwas reading about myself, you
know, a 12 year old southerngirl, religious mother,
everybody's getting ready forchurch, you don't want to go to
church, you want to go outsideand stare at the sky. And you
know what I did? I stoppedreading as a screenshot. And I
(39:37):
took photos of the pit thosepictures and I sent them to my
best friend and I was like, Thisis us. It's us. Mm hmm. And I
was you know, 40 and I'menjoying this moment. And also
in the moment, I'm like, wow,you know, as much as I love to
read as much as I love, youknow, all the 80s You know, love
(39:58):
stories and all that, you know,pretty in pink and 16, candles,
etc, I didn't realize that I wasmissing anything, because I
found pieces of those charactersto identify with the insecurity,
you know, the awkwardness, thefish out of water feeling,
right? When I was reading thatbook, I realized that I was
missing something. And I rightthat I knew I had to give that
(40:22):
to young people. And so it wasjust confirmation for me that
you know, that, you know, thelove story that I was writing
was going to have meaning readit, and it just woke me up. It
woke me up into understandingthat I wanted to write books
that felt like gifts to thepeople who were reading them.
(40:44):
And they felt like, you know,bright moments for the people
who, you know, might not belittle black girls, but who love
love love stories, you know, itwill be another thing that they
enjoy as well. So yeah, thatthat woke me up to my purpose.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (41:03):
Right.
And I know you've said before,that you want to, you wanted to
write something that had alasting impact on black culture
in the United States. That's a,that's a wonderful, wonderful
thing to want to do. I lovethat.
Unknown (41:23):
You know, and it's a big thing to want to do, right?
Because I know that I cancontrol what I write, I know,
you know, that I can pour myheart and soul into something.
But I also know that I, at thetime, I had not read a story
about young black Americans,that felt that was bright. You
(41:45):
know, this was before the waveof, you know, black romance
novels for teens, where you gotto see teams doing things other
than, you know, clashing withpolice or coming in a reckoning
with their race or racism inAmerica, etc. And so I knew, I
(42:05):
do know that I've made acontribution that will be will
be bright, a bright departurefor a lot of reading that young
people get to do. When I thinkabout my son's reading, you
know, list in class, when theycame home, every book that had a
(42:26):
black teenager on the cover wasfelt dark, it was about some
trauma, or some pain. And thatwas not the case with the other
books that were full ofadventure. And exactly. So you
know, then that was even moreconfirmation for me that, yes,
that's what I'm gonna be doing.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (42:45):
And honestly, you know, that's a
whole lot of black children'sexperience in this country.
Certainly my children and yourchildren. Yeah, right.
Everybody's life is not rifewith trauma, and violence. And I
feel like more children's livescan be can be adventurous if we
(43:10):
write that, absolutely give themthat as something you know, that
they can have and experience,which is why we read books to
escape where we are, yetsomething else.
Unknown (43:23):
Yes, I always. There's a quote, I can't remember who I
think it was. Bishop is thename. But I mentioned it all the
time, because it talks aboutbooks as mirrors and Windows.
And I feel like if you grow upblack in America, as a black
teenager, there's a commonthread that you all that is
familiar to all of you, nomatter what your socio economic
(43:45):
status is, if you grow up as anAmerican teenager, there are
threads, threads that connectyou all. And you know, so the
humanity that those commonthreads are what I love to what
I loved about incorporating intomy, my book, Jupiter, and that
quote, that talks about themirrors and Windows. It's so
(44:09):
important. It was so importantfor me for my book to be a
window, right? To get into thislife of this one group of black
teenagers growing up in Memphis,to people who might not know
black teenagers who might nothave ever been to Memphis to
give them a peek into thecontemporary modern life of
those types of teenagers. Andmore importantly, for it to be a
(44:32):
mirror to all those kids whogrew up in the city, who, you
know, we're definitely remindedthat they were black in
different ways. Society. Yeah,but but we're not traumatized by
it. Right. And it's so importantfor them to see themselves
(44:53):
represented in in fiction aswell.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (44:55):
Yes, because Black Lives Matter.
Unknown (44:58):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Let's
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (45:00):
play so because we Yes, you know, what's
on the bookshelves, what's onTV, what's that? matters? Right?
Does and, and so, put my put meon the bookshelves let people
read about my life, you know?
Because I matter.
Unknown (45:18):
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (45:20):
This has been wonderful kilise thank you
so much for coming today. So,you are the first podcast of
season two. First podcastepisode of season two of Ronda
Coleman Wandel podcast. And sowe you know, last season I would
ask guests to leave me with afew words, you know, for the
(45:42):
listeners, but this season, mymarketing guru says you talk
about pivoting, so ask eachguest to leave their pivot
pearls of wisdom. And so whatwhat are your pivot pearls of
wisdom for our listeners,
Unknown (45:56):
my pearls of wisdom would be to tell mothers to tell
women, um, if I had neverpursued my dream, I would be
three fourths of a person. Andthat quarter that will be
missing would be my deep thatdeep and true happiness. I love
(46:23):
my kids, I love being a mom lovebeing a wife, and my family, I
will show up for my kids lovethem down. When I will be
battling depression, you know,inside. And so I would my pearl
of wisdom on my pivot pearl ofwisdom. I would tell moms that
your kids and your families theydeserve to see you work towards
(46:51):
and achieve your dreams. Theyjust they deserve it. The women
in your lives you know if you'renot a mom, the women in your
lives, your your friends, yourfamilies, the people who the
village who shows up for youdeserves to see you go after and
achieve your dreams and youdeserve to do it too.
Rhonda Coleman Wande (47:14):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much. KALISE I'veloved having you on the podcast
today. I love I love having youas a friend. I love witnessing
your journey and I just felt Ifeel very privileged to continue
to be a part of it.
Unknown (47:32):
Thank you so much. And I'm so proud of you and so
privileged to be able to be apart of your this wonderful
podcast that you have here. Thisgreat, powerful thing that
you're building. I'm so proud ofus. So thank you for thank you
for having me.
Hi, I'm Rhonda Coleman Wandel. And
welcome to my podcast, where wecelebrate the rich life journeys
of women, and the purposefulpivots they make on those
journeys. On today's episode,I'm talking to Kelis Rowe,
author of finding Jupiter, ablack teen romance novel. We'll
(00:37):
explore police's road tobecoming a writer. And the
challenge of balancing takingcare of yourself was taking care
of others. Kelis, welcome to thepodcast.
Kelis Rowe (00:51):
Hi, I'm so happy to be here with you. Yes, I'm so
excited that you could be ontoday.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (00:58):
I can't wait for the listeners to hear
about your journey. And you justhave so many wonderful golden
nuggets. So many pivots thatyou've made throughout your life
and career. And so I'm excitedto to get into that and discuss
it. So let's just jump right in.
Okay, let's do it. Cool. Sowe'll start with a little bit of
(01:22):
background. You know, we want toknow where you grew up. Because
I know you're an author. Andyour book is based in your
hometown, your your first book,and we'll get into talking about
that. But tell us about whereyou grew up. How you grew up.
Okay,
Kelis Rowe (01:42):
yeah, I'm from Memphis, as you know. And I grew
up in a neighborhood in Memphiscalled White Haven. My parents
actually still live in the samehouse that I grew up in there
with my twin brother and myoldest sister. So Memphis city
girl. My both my parents worked,we were in a working class
(02:05):
family. You know, sometimes endsdidn't quite meet and we had to
make choices. So I wouldconsider my upbringing to be
lower middle income, at timeslower income. And, yeah, it was
a happy childhood church everySunday, you know, rollerskating
(02:26):
education was really importantin our home. You know, even
though my both my parents didnot graduate from a four year
university, they really stressededucation and reading it was
very important in my household.
So yeah, that was pretty much myupbringing in a nutshell. Yes.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (02:44):
Nice. And I have fond memories of that
house, some listeners, Elise andI are friends, longtime friends
in college. But I can remembermy mom dropping me off at your
house. And then I became anadult, you know, with my own
children kind of meeting up overat your, you know, with my
(03:05):
little people who fondlyremember Zach has a baby. That's
your oldest child of mine, andyour mom's super sweet. And your
aunt and Margie age? Yes. Supersupers Wait, memories of house.
Happiness. Alright, so yes, younoted that education was very
(03:28):
important for your family. Iremember you were a reader as a
kid. Can you talk about that?
Yes,
Unknown (03:37):
I was, from a very early age, I think all my
siblings, we were early readers,and avid readers, I lived
walking distance from thelibrary, Levi library in
Memphis. And, you know, backthen, when I was in fourth and
fifth grade, I would get out oflike to get out of the house, I
(04:01):
would ask my mom, if I could goto the library. Sure, honey, you
know, see you, you know, beforethis. You know, it was a
different time in place. But uh,yeah, fourth, fourth grade
walking down the street all bymyself and not the best of
neighborhoods. And I would justgo to the library and stay in
there until they closed I wouldbrowse. You know, the YA
(04:23):
section, the section that Iwasn't supposed to be in really,
I would read all the books. Inmy grade. I would enjoy all the
different performers andstorytellers and poets, they
would bring in entertainment andI live in. Yeah, libraries. They
were that library in particularwas my safe space. And even
(04:47):
through college, I my work studywas in the library. I wrote my
book in the library as an adultI libraries are my safe haven.
Yeah,
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (04:56):
I can relate to that. So you In high
school, you know, and it's timeto go to college. What were your
plans after high school?
Unknown (05:07):
After high school, I was going to be a flight
attendant.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (05:12):
So you weren't, so you weren't going to
go to
Unknown (05:15):
college. I talked about going to college because that's
what you know, students who likeI went to a Magnet Middle
School, and it was in the honorsprogram in high school, when
you're smart, and rates and yourstudents, you talk about going
to college. So I talked aboutgoing to college. But what I
really wanted to do, because Idecided that at 18, I can do
(05:35):
what I want. wanted to be aflight attendant, I wanted to
travel I jobs that have, youknow, very specific duties
spelled out and uniformsappealed to me very much.
Because I imagined that therewas security in working, that I
knew what I was going to bedoing every day. You know, my
(05:58):
job was clearly outlined for me.
So yeah, I wanted to be a flightattendant. So my senior year, I
went to a job fair that at thetime Northwest Airlines posted
to hire, and I learned that Iwas too tall, there was a height
limit, the height requirementfor airline workers, for flight
(06:20):
attendants. And I was I exceededthat. And I was devastated.
Because that was going to be myfuture wearing a uniform,
completing my job traveling. Andwhen I realized that that wasn't
going to be part of my future, Iwent into a deep depression. And
I actually didn't apply tocollege until after I graduate
the summer after I graduated.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (06:43):
So you had to start making pivots
early. I mean, you are, what1718 years old. And the world is
your oyster. You don't thinkthat there's anything you can
do? Right? Absolutely. You wereyou were gonna go be a flight
attendant. Like why not? Whycan't I do that? Then this big
(07:07):
FAA, you know, organization tellyou? No, ma'am. You cannot
because you're too tall,something that you can't
control. Like, you can't controlyour height. You and you can't
control another organization'srules. Yeah. And so and you've
(07:28):
just said that you likesecurity. So those are and so
how did you get through that?
Because that's a major, a majorblow.
Unknown (07:39):
I felt like it was actually just a lot of luck.
Honestly, I, you know, I waitedlater than everybody else to
apply to college. Even though Ihad a strong, you know, resume.
I was late. So I lucked out thatthe two local colleges were
still accepting, you know, theyhad Rowling acceptance. And so I
(08:02):
applied to them. I gotwaitlisted at one university,
and I got into my alma mater,our alma mater, which is where
we met. Yes, yeah, I would sayit was luck. I knew that I
couldn't not go now that my theone thing that was going to open
(08:24):
the world up to me was not apossibility. I knew I had to go
to college. At that point, itwasn't a choice. And I was very
lucky that I got that I got in.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (08:35):
Right. So you're focusing on college? What
was your major? Initially? Whatdid you think you wanted to do?
When I am? What did you end updoing?
Unknown (08:46):
Okay. Yeah, the easiest choice at the time for me was
psychology, just because I'dalways been told by friends and
family that I was, you know,very intuitive. And everybody
felt so comfortable with me. Iwas the person that everyone in
the family leaned on, when theyhad an issue or a problem or
didn't quite know how to go toanother family member, or
(09:07):
another friend, I was the, youknow, Hey, Rick, like kale. What
should we do? So I said, I takecare of people's feelings and
emotions pretty well, I'll studypsychology, I'll be a
psychologist. And pretty earlyon, there was one course that I
took that was basically thepurpose of the course was to see
(09:30):
you know, if you if this was theright role for you, it was
yourself as a psychologist, andas a counselor, and, you know,
ultimately it was it becameclear that I'm, I have a very
high level of empathy. And Iwould be the counselor who, you
know, had no boundaries. Iwouldn't want to bring all the
(09:52):
kids home with I want to meetall the clients for coffee. And
I would just be stressed stickout. So I pivoted to use your
word away from psychology tomarketing. I felt like
advertising. You know, there's alot of Psychology at work there.
So I figured I, I pivot and domarketing. Instead, I ended up
(10:15):
doing both.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (10:17):
Right. So your first major job out of
college, was in marketing. Socan you tell us about what you
did there and how you ended upthere?
Unknown (10:32):
Yeah, I, I had an internship, actually, my senior
year at CBU. That was in themarketing department, my focus
actually was market research. Iwas the person, you know,
receiving the surveys, and, youknow, putting in the data and
(10:54):
writing the reports. And when Ifirst got started, so after
graduation, my first job was asa market researcher, for a local
nonprofit organization. My firstjob in my field after college, I
was with the Texas labor force.
And I basically was one of thosepeople who were, you know,
(11:19):
punching those numbers, orcranking out statistics about
the workforce, the labor forcein the state of Texas, that Job
was very reliable, I knew what Iwas going to be doing every day.
I do like order, and you know,security and know what to
expect. But it was a little toomuch, knowing what to expect it
was very robotic. So I ended upwhere I landed, was in a local
(11:44):
advertising agency, doing marketresearch analysis for them. And
doing market research analysisfor marketing campaigns is a
little more fun than, you know,just doing the Labor Workforce
statistics.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (12:02):
Okay, so the skills that you used and
acquired in this fun marketingresearch position, can you talk
a little bit about those and howthey possibly transfer into
writing, which is what you donow? Yeah, well,
Unknown (12:18):
it's all, you know, a lot of observing, I'm reading,
um, kind of taking bits andpieces and creating something
new and meaningful. That No,that's very surface, but that's
the core of what of what I did.
And I think as a writer, thekind of writing that I do now is
really much the same thing.
(12:42):
Wherever I draw my inspirationfrom, you know, it's bits and
pieces of things, I've donethings I've, you know, thought
of people I've known, and kindof bringing those pieces
together and making creatingsomething meaningful, something
meaningful and, and new.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (12:58):
Right.
Yeah, I think that's great. Ithink it's great to be aware of
our transferable skill sets, aswomen. And because this helps
you pivot, you know, we don'thave to be stuck in one job for
the rest of our lives. You know,we have skills and transfer into
other things, you know,depending on how our interests
(13:20):
change. All right. Okay, so youare in a career marketing. You
love it, right? I know you so Iknow that you enjoy working and
being useful. But you also havedreams of having a family. And
(13:42):
at this point, you're married,and you want children. So I want
to get into you have a reallyrich motherhood journey. And for
career women, the motherhoodjourney in the career journey
are often intertwined. So you,let's talk about your first
(14:03):
child. And how long aftergetting married and wanting to
have a child did you have yourfirst job?
Unknown (14:16):
Yeah, we I was married.
Yes, thank you for saying that.
I backtrack a little bit tobacktrack a little bit. I did. I
always loved to work. I like tofeel useful. I rarely rarely
only had one job. There weretimes that I had three jobs. Are
there times that I had four jobsat one time. From the time I was
(14:36):
opened up to work i i like tofeel useful and to be useful. So
yes. So I worked for seven yearsbefore after college before I
got pregnant the first time. Isay that because my first
pregnancy ended in miscarriage.
And that was something you know,I don't have to talk a lot about
(14:58):
Got it. But that was somethingthat was pretty devastating.
Because once you know thatyou're pregnant, you know you
all these instant dreams kindof, you know, wrap in your head,
all the dreams you have for thislittle baby and the dreams you
have for your life and yourfamily. And at the time
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (15:15):
you start to I heard a woman say the other
day, you start to create anidentity, a future identity for
yourself as a mother, then whenyou have a miscarriage, it's
like not only does your childdie, but that future identity.
So it's damaged in within yousomehow, you know, it dies for a
(15:38):
moment anyway. That's, that'sdoubly painful. Yeah,
Unknown (15:45):
absolutely. Absolutely.
And I did a lot of you know,self blaming, I did a lot of
internalizing, you know, somepretty ugly and untrue thoughts
about myself as a woman. And soyeah, the next time I got
pregnant, it was three monthslater, I got pregnant with my
(16:05):
son. And I, you know, with nofear fearlessly, the dreams came
back. Myself, yeah.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (16:22):
I remember last time, you know, we
were talking about this, youtalked about being able to find
a silver lining in that incidentor that time. And that's such a
wonderful character trait thatyou have, you know, you
definitely acknowledge thepainful aspects of it, but you
(16:44):
find the silver lining and findthe strength to move forward.
So, you know, can you tell usabout the silver lining that you
saw, and
Unknown (16:56):
yes, I'll talk about the first silver lining, which
was that I can drink coffeeagain. So, pictured me with a
hot steaming cup of coffeeballed up in a chair crying and
sobbing, to my best friend onthe phone. You know, when I got
home from the hospital, that wasme. Beyond that, I, you know, we
(17:18):
worked, got back to work, and Igot pregnant again, three months
later. And I without fear, I washappy again, I had all the
dreams, you know, for myself,and my family and my little
baby, they all came back asstrong as ever. And I looked at
my career, I, you know, I'dalways wanted to be a working
(17:41):
mom, who was there for mychildren, the way that my mom
was, with the understanding thatI did want to take as many weeks
off as possible, legally, to bewith to be with my little baby.
And then I was going to, youknow, either work from home or
start a business or do somethingenterprising, but also, you
(18:02):
know, have my baby I was goingto be, you know, like, my mom
was, I was going to wear heelsand work and be a great mother.
But my son was born with atethered spinal cord. And he
needed surgery as a newborn. So,you know, when you when you hear
(18:24):
something like that, and youknow, at the time, he looks like
a perfect baby, you know, therewas no sign on the outside to a
untrained eye that anythingthat's going on. Right, but the
doctors, you know, thank God forthem. So, you know, the dreams,
the, you know, of my future selfof my baby, all that stuff,
(18:46):
just, you know, gets blurry,because what does this mean?
What does it mean, to do spinalcord surgery on an infant? What
is my life gonna look like? So,so yeah, I ended up being a stay
at home mom, not the kind thatI, you know, thought I was gonna
be initially but ultimately, Ifound a community and, you know,
(19:08):
my son recovered fully and I wasable to do be fulfilled in the
moment where I was, but I didhave to put my career and my
personal fulfillment on hold,because, you know, from the time
that they told me, my son had aspinal cord problem, I, I kind
(19:33):
of disappeared to myself,everything was about him. And
for him.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (19:38):
Yeah. And so this this phrase that you use
disappeared, you disappeared, I,you know, definitely one
listeners to hold on to thatwing because we're gonna come
back to that. That's a big partof what we're talking about
today, kind of when we disappearinto the void and our and other
(20:00):
responsibilities like our familyresponsibilities take take our
place. But, you know, Zackrecovered or your child
recovered from the spinal cordinjury, and pretty readily.
That's, that's, that was a blowbut tell us about other other
(20:23):
aspects of his development thatreally kind of change the
trajectory of your career path?
Unknown (20:31):
Yeah. So yes, he did recover very quickly. He had the
surgery as a newborn. And by thetime he was 11 months old, he
was released from any type oftherapy follow up care, you
know, they did the final X rayand said, he should develop, you
know, like a abled, typical, youknow, child, and, you know, that
(20:55):
was a big relief, I exhaled, I,you know, by then I had become a
very protective kind ofhelicopter toddler mom, you
know, holding him all the timeand wanting to protect him from
the world. But when we got thatreport, I started to say, Okay,
well, now I can, you know, I'llstay at home with him until
(21:17):
preschool, he'll go topreschool, I can go back to
work. And the older he got, thecloser we got to preschool age,
the more evident it was thatthat that was not going to
happen. classrooms were notenvironments that he was
particularly happy in, he had asensory processing disorder.
(21:41):
And, you know, the way that heprocessed, any kind of sensory
input just was not, it didn'tdeal with a classroom. So I
ended up homeschooling. And Idid that until he was 10 or 11
years old until he was in fifthgrade.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (21:58):
Yep. So let's talk about that the
decision to homeschool? Becauseif, if you I know I have, I have
three children myself, andhomeschooling them, you know,
for me, it's not an option.
They're big. Now they're like1819 20, they obviously haven't
(22:22):
always been that way. It justtakes so much of yourself to, to
do that, to do that. And, andalso work at the same time. So I
would find that incrediblychallenging. So can you talk
about your decision tohomeschool, Zach and, and the
(22:45):
challenges personally foryourself or your own personal
growth and development that camealong with that?
Unknown (22:54):
Okay, yes, I can say that, you know, fortunately, I
am married. And my husband, hisincome was enough for us to live
on one income. So I want to addthat because I know that that's
important in framing my story.
But, so, on the financial side,on the lifestyle side, I didn't
(23:17):
have those pressures. And alsobecause I am the type of person
who, you know, kind of throwsmyself into the task ahead of me
when it became evident that Iwas going to have to be, you
know, yes, a stay at home mom,but also the teacher. I threw
myself into it, you know, nobodyknew my son better than I did.
(23:43):
He was, you know, a highlyintelligent, you know, highly
gifted little guy. So, Iactually took a lot of pleasure
in, you know, showing his beinghis bubble. And last night, out
of a bomb group. I joined a momgroup because I wanted him to
have playdates and playmates andI did that for him. herself
because I needed a village aswell. And I threw myself into
(24:09):
it, you know, if you you lookup, you know, cheerleaders, stay
at home mom in the dictionary,you know, I was right. I was
right there. And it's kind oflike, I was happy to do it
because I felt fulfilled everyday. I knew that my son was
taken care of and happy. And youknow, that I had created this
(24:30):
world for him where he didn'thave the kinds of challenges
that was stressing him out, youknow? He was very free and happy
and I was fulfilled. But I wasalso not I was present for him,
but I wasn't I was not presentfor myself.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (24:50):
Yes. And I and I know that many of us,
you know, struggle with findingthat balance, right? Especially
high achiever. because we seeall of these wonderful things
that I want to provide mychildren with and opportunities,
and I want to be there everysecond, you know? Yes. And then,
(25:11):
you know, we put ourselves onput our put ourselves second all
the time and feel guilty when weput ourselves first. Yes. And
that's, that's just such a sucha difficult, I guess balance to
find, I feel like you found itnow with your second baby. And
(25:35):
yes, you found it. So I wouldlove for you to talk about how
you found, you know, the ballotsand how you, you know, give
yourself the green light to takecare of you first. So
Unknown (25:50):
I would love to talk about that. So homeschooling
mom, well, my son is in fifthgrade, he goes to, to public
school, I, you know, we take atrip of a lifetime to Africa, we
did three weeks in Africa. Andthen three weeks at my husband's
in my husband's home country,you signed the infant, and on
(26:13):
the after that and so we're athis parents home, wonderful,
family loving, just a great,great family. And everybody's
you know, like, okay, you know,Zach's going to school. Whereas,
you know, it's time to haveanother baby, whereas our
grandchild, kind of the runningtheme of time back home with
(26:35):
him. And obviously, we wantedmore kids. But the more that
conversation was happening, themore I was thinking, you know,
the closer Zachary got to gointo school, I was like, okay,
then now it's going to be myturn again, you know, what am I
going to do next? I go back towhat I was doing, you know, 10
(26:58):
years before, but me now by thattime, it was a whole new world.
I couldn't go back into marketresearch. And, you know, at the
same level that I left, I wouldhave a lot of learning to do.
And also, I hadn't been in theworkforce in a decade. And so I
would have to readjust to doingthat again. Right. It was
something that I was lookingforward to doing. It was such an
(27:20):
adventure that I was lookingforward to taking on. But the
closer we got to the end of thatvacation and coming home, I knew
that I was also getting closerto kind of not fading back in
like I was, you know, I faded toblack a decade ago, I was gonna
stay there, you know, I hadstarted writing a book, in two
(27:45):
years, two years prior to that,I started writing a book, like a
little seed of a book that I wasgonna write. And I had kind of
tabled it, because it's the kindof thing where, you know, I was
still you know, very much a stayat home mom. And, you know,
trying to eke out something formyself, but always, always,
always prioritizing my family.
But coming back home from thattrip, I realized that I'm gonna
(28:09):
have another baby, it's what Ineed to do. But more than that,
I need to finish this thing Ineed to go after this thing that
I wanted to carve out formyself, if I don't do it now.
I'm never going to do it. I'mgonna love my babies. But I'm
gonna be a sad mom.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (28:30):
Okay, so let's pause a minute. And unpack
this, because you've said somany wonderful things. So you,
your first child was ready to goback to school, you know. And,
at this point, 10 years havepassed since you were in the
(28:51):
workforce. And you knew that itwas your time, right? But then
you acknowledge, like, what Ileft in the workforce 10 years
ago, and no longer exists forme. So what am I going to do? So
I want to talk about you findingyour purpose, figuring that out.
And I love that you also saidyou were very excited and open
(29:13):
to the adventure of finding outright. Yeah. And so it was okay,
you know, to let go of whateverversion of yourself existed 10
years ago, and and look at thenew version of yourself and
figure out what your purposewas. So just how did you do
that?
Unknown (29:34):
Well, I, I can back up to when I started writing the
book, a friend of mine, awonderful friend of mine that I
met in a mom's group that Ijoined. She, you know, I bounced
a lot of my anxiety off of herand she was like, why don't we
make a vision board? And then atalanda Why don't we make a
(29:55):
vision board and so we had avision board party, just the two
of us. I love boards. So myvision board saved, it saved my
life. So you get to the core ofwhat's important of what you
want out of life. And for me, itwas so simple. You know, I
wanted to stay married, I wantedto have more babies, I wanted to
(30:20):
write a book. I wanted to travelwith my family, very simple
things, that when you put it onpaper, it's like, I don't, I
don't want a lot. But let meorder my steps towards these
things. So I feel important.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (30:36):
That's like goal setting, value setting
through that exercise, andfocus, like focusing, forcing
yourself to sit down and reallylook at who I am and what it is.
I want. Such a wonderful,wonderful exercise. I think
everybody should do it.
Absolutely. regularly. Yes. Yes,absolutely. Yeah. So how does
(30:58):
your vision board come to life?
Yeah, so
Unknown (31:05):
the easiest thing on my vision board to actually, you
know, work towards that I feltlike could materialize in time
that I could control was thewriting of the book. So I
started writing the book. And,you know, it was kind of a chop,
chop, you know, one step up to10 steps back, because I was
still homeschooling, I was stilla stay at home mom. But But I, I
(31:29):
had ignited this little sparkinside myself that I knew I was
working on something that wasgoing to be just for me. And so
yeah, we after we got home fromthat trip, I was really
determined to do it. It wasalmost like a race against, you
know, time because I was alsotrying to get pregnant. And so I
started writing this book. Andit's kind of like, once I threw
(31:52):
myself back into the book that Ihad started writing two years
prior, I threw myself back intoit with a sense of urgency. That
was really desperation,honestly, because I saw
depression, staring me down atthe end of this, if it didn't,
you know, if I didn't finishthis book that I was going to
self publish, I just wanted tofinish this book. So so that's
(32:16):
what I did. I threw myself intoit. Fortunately, you know, for
me, I, you know, I did end uppregnant. And I did end up
selling my book. In the sameyear, I think the year that my
book sold, was also the year Igot pregnant. And or the year my
book sold was the year that Ihad my baby, or something like
(32:38):
that. And it all lines up. Yes.
Yeah, the point is that, yeah,both things came together for
me, at a time when, when Ireally needed them to
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (32:49):
write, no, that's beautiful. It's
beautiful. And, you know, we'vetalked a bit about like,
throughout the podcast today,about kind of disappearing into
the void or disappearing intotaking care of your family and
(33:10):
your children and lose losingyourself essentially. And, and
then finding yourself again, andyou acknowledge that you were
not completely fulfilled by byignoring your needs. And and you
did not want, you did not wantto be a depressed mom, you did
(33:33):
just to not want to live thatlife. Yes. And you changed, you
know, you, you made sure thatthat you didn't. So that's
wonderful, that's wonderful.
Unknown (33:46):
And I also want to mention that, you know, pursuing
this dream that I had, with theknowledge that it was something
like deep down, but I felt likeI was I needed to do. I was
fortunate in that, you know,selling the book, made it
possible for us to hire a nannyso that I could continue to
(34:11):
write. And, you know, not havingused childcare with my son. You
know, I didn't have a lot oftime, time wasn't on my side to
kind of vet that a lot of peopleand work through my trust
issues. Yes. So we were verylucky that we met the perfect
(34:33):
nanny, who we found out afterthe fact, had grown up with a
dear friend of mine, who knewher family very intimately and
could vouch for her and thatreally made it possible for us
to invite this person into ourhome and, and trust that she was
going to be, you know,everything that my daughter
needed while I was away.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (34:54):
And that's a big thing for you
because I was there, you know,when you were raising your first
child and I I can see that youare putting all of yourself into
that, you know, you that you didnot. I mean, nobody could
babysit this. Mother, yourmother had to fly from Memphis,
(35:14):
Tennessee to Austin to keep yourchild because she would not let
anybody keep him.
Unknown (35:23):
Very grateful for cheap plane tickets, thankfully.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (35:28):
This is major growth for you to give up
that kind of control. Because torealize like that did not serve
that will not continue to serveme to just drain myself dry, you
know? Yeah, absolutely. Yes. So,people, okay, she sounds bougie
(35:49):
because she's got a nanny. Butno, no, this is a big, big deal.
A big growth for for Cal.
Absolutely.
Unknown (35:59):
Absolutely. And it's one of those things where again,
you know, there was a littlethread of desperation in there.
You know, I wanted my, my secondchild to have everything and my
first child had, but I was adifferent person. I had my
second child. So yeah, I had tofind a way to do that. And I'm
(36:23):
very fortunate in that I wasable to, to order it to manage
my life, organize my life in away that that served both of us.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (36:33):
Right, great. So let's talk a little
bit about your book, we've got alittle more time. What is your
book about? The title is findingJupiter? It's young adult
fiction. What's it about? Andwhat inspired you to write the
book like outside of yourpersonal, you know, goals? Just
(36:56):
the the content of the book,what inspired you to write it?
Unknown (36:59):
Okay, I'll start at the beginning. And I'll try to be
brief. But you know, I haven'talways read mostly I read adult
fiction. And when the HungerGames movies came out, I became
obsessed with that movie, Iwatched all the movies, I think
the third movie was out at thetime. And I watched the trilogy,
(37:20):
back to back to back, it wasalmost an embarrassing amount of
times.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (37:28):
When books were out, and I read them
back to back, it was just like arefuge for me from from the law
school, you know, law schoollife.
Unknown (37:39):
And so I discovered the books after I had, you know,
gave it given into my obsessionwith the movies, because I was
like, I'll experience this storydifferently. I read the series,
back to back to back. And I hadlistened to the series back to
back. And I went, Okay, therehas to be more out there and
why. So I started readingCollins, she's a wonderful
writer. Absolutely. Excellent.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (38:03):
Elevated writing for young adults.
Unknown (38:05):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
So yes. So once I got my feel ofHunger Games, I branched out and
I read more fantasy books andseries. And one day, I saw a
book cover for the cover of thebook calling my name by Leanna
to money. And the cover is verysimple. It's just a black girl.
She's standing, you know, facingthe side looking to the side.
(38:28):
And it's just a black girl inthe middle of this book. And it
was a black girl who could havebeen me, you know, she had on
Chuck Taylors she had, you know,it could have been me. And um,
how old am I at the time, I'mlike, I'm 40 at the time, and
I'm looking at this book cover,and I'm like, wow, you know, so
why a novel I that was somethingthat I'd never seen as a girl.
(38:53):
And the book cover made apromise to me. So I picked up
the book, I bought the book. Andwhen I got home, and started
reading, you know, the firstpage I you know, the book
fulfill this promise it fulfillthis promise to me, it was about
me. It was a it was a 12 yearold girl at the time. But it was
(39:15):
about me for the first time I'mreading this book, after seeing
that image on the front. And Iwas reading about myself, you
know, a 12 year old southerngirl, religious mother,
everybody's getting ready forchurch, you don't want to go to
church, you want to go outsideand stare at the sky. And you
know what I did? I stoppedreading as a screenshot. And I
(39:37):
took photos of the pit thosepictures and I sent them to my
best friend and I was like, Thisis us. It's us. Mm hmm. And I
was you know, 40 and I'menjoying this moment. And also
in the moment, I'm like, wow,you know, as much as I love to
read as much as I love, youknow, all the 80s You know, love
(39:58):
stories and all that, you know,pretty in pink and 16, candles,
etc, I didn't realize that I wasmissing anything, because I
found pieces of those charactersto identify with the insecurity,
you know, the awkwardness, thefish out of water feeling,
right? When I was reading thatbook, I realized that I was
missing something. And I rightthat I knew I had to give that
(40:22):
to young people. And so it wasjust confirmation for me that
you know, that, you know, thelove story that I was writing
was going to have meaning readit, and it just woke me up. It
woke me up into understandingthat I wanted to write books
that felt like gifts to thepeople who were reading them.
(40:44):
And they felt like, you know,bright moments for the people
who, you know, might not belittle black girls, but who love
love love stories, you know, itwill be another thing that they
enjoy as well. So yeah, thatthat woke me up to my purpose.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (41:03):
Right.
And I know you've said before,that you want to, you wanted to
write something that had alasting impact on black culture
in the United States. That's a,that's a wonderful, wonderful
thing to want to do. I lovethat.
Unknown (41:23):
You know, and it's a big thing to want to do, right?
Because I know that I cancontrol what I write, I know,
you know, that I can pour myheart and soul into something.
But I also know that I, at thetime, I had not read a story
about young black Americans,that felt that was bright. You
(41:45):
know, this was before the waveof, you know, black romance
novels for teens, where you gotto see teams doing things other
than, you know, clashing withpolice or coming in a reckoning
with their race or racism inAmerica, etc. And so I knew, I
(42:05):
do know that I've made acontribution that will be will
be bright, a bright departurefor a lot of reading that young
people get to do. When I thinkabout my son's reading, you
know, list in class, when theycame home, every book that had a
(42:26):
black teenager on the cover wasfelt dark, it was about some
trauma, or some pain. And thatwas not the case with the other
books that were full ofadventure. And exactly. So you
know, then that was even moreconfirmation for me that, yes,
that's what I'm gonna be doing.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (42:45):
And honestly, you know, that's a
whole lot of black children'sexperience in this country.
Certainly my children and yourchildren. Yeah, right.
Everybody's life is not rifewith trauma, and violence. And I
feel like more children's livescan be can be adventurous if we
(43:10):
write that, absolutely give themthat as something you know, that
they can have and experience,which is why we read books to
escape where we are, yetsomething else.
Unknown (43:23):
Yes, I always. There's a quote, I can't remember who I
think it was. Bishop is thename. But I mentioned it all the
time, because it talks aboutbooks as mirrors and Windows.
And I feel like if you grow upblack in America, as a black
teenager, there's a commonthread that you all that is
familiar to all of you, nomatter what your socio economic
(43:45):
status is, if you grow up as anAmerican teenager, there are
threads, threads that connectyou all. And you know, so the
humanity that those commonthreads are what I love to what
I loved about incorporating intomy, my book, Jupiter, and that
quote, that talks about themirrors and Windows. It's so
(44:09):
important. It was so importantfor me for my book to be a
window, right? To get into thislife of this one group of black
teenagers growing up in Memphis,to people who might not know
black teenagers who might nothave ever been to Memphis to
give them a peek into thecontemporary modern life of
those types of teenagers. Andmore importantly, for it to be a
(44:32):
mirror to all those kids whogrew up in the city, who, you
know, we're definitely remindedthat they were black in
different ways. Society. Yeah,but but we're not traumatized by
it. Right. And it's so importantfor them to see themselves
(44:53):
represented in in fiction aswell.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (44:55):
Yes, because Black Lives Matter.
Unknown (44:58):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Let's
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (45:00):
play so because we Yes, you know, what's
on the bookshelves, what's onTV, what's that? matters? Right?
Does and, and so, put my put meon the bookshelves let people
read about my life, you know?
Because I matter.
Unknown (45:18):
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (45:20):
This has been wonderful kilise thank you
so much for coming today. So,you are the first podcast of
season two. First podcastepisode of season two of Ronda
Coleman Wandel podcast. And sowe you know, last season I would
ask guests to leave me with afew words, you know, for the
(45:42):
listeners, but this season, mymarketing guru says you talk
about pivoting, so ask eachguest to leave their pivot
pearls of wisdom. And so whatwhat are your pivot pearls of
wisdom for our listeners,
Unknown (45:56):
my pearls of wisdom would be to tell mothers to tell
women, um, if I had neverpursued my dream, I would be
three fourths of a person. Andthat quarter that will be
missing would be my deep thatdeep and true happiness. I love
(46:23):
my kids, I love being a mom lovebeing a wife, and my family, I
will show up for my kids lovethem down. When I will be
battling depression, you know,inside. And so I would my pearl
of wisdom on my pivot pearl ofwisdom. I would tell moms that
your kids and your families theydeserve to see you work towards
(46:51):
and achieve your dreams. Theyjust they deserve it. The women
in your lives you know if you'renot a mom, the women in your
lives, your your friends, yourfamilies, the people who the
village who shows up for youdeserves to see you go after and
achieve your dreams and youdeserve to do it too.
Rhonda Coleman Wande (47:14):
Wonderful.
Thank you so much. KALISE I'veloved having you on the podcast
today. I love I love having youas a friend. I love witnessing
your journey and I just felt Ifeel very privileged to continue
to be a part of it.
Unknown (47:32):
Thank you so much. And I'm so proud of you and so
privileged to be able to be apart of your this wonderful
podcast that you have here. Thisgreat, powerful thing that
you're building. I'm so proud ofus. So thank you for thank you
for having me.
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