April 23, 2024 • 55 mins
In this episode Rhonda talks to Saira Alikhan, attorney and senior commercial advisor at Google. The two discuss Saira's experience with race in the US as a child of immigrants and the impact it’s had on her career trajectory. Also, Saira has charted a unique career path chock full of rich experiences and powerful pivots. If you’re looking to pivot in your career or are just looking for inspiration, this episode is definitely for you! Lots of gems in this episode!
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Episode Transcript
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Rhonda Coleman Wandel (00:17):
Hi, I'm Rhonda Coleman Wandel and
welcome to my podcast. Andtoday's episode I'm talking to
Saira Ali Khan. Saira is aSenior Commercial attorney at
Google, bringing a wealth ofexperience and insights to our
conversation. In our talk today,we'll explore her experience
(00:38):
with race in the US as animmigrant, and the impact it's
had on her career trajectory.
Also, Saira has charted a uniquecareer path chock full of rich
experiences and powerful pivots.
And she's going to take usthrough her journey. If you're
looking to pivot in your careeror simply seeking inspiration,
(00:59):
this episode is definitely foryou. Lots of gems in this
episode, y'all. Let's dive in.
Hi Saira, welcome to thepodcast.
Saira Alikhan (01:11):
Hi, Rhonda, thanks so much for having me.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (01:14):
I'm so excited to have you on the
podcast. You've been mycolleague for the past five
years. Because we work togetherand Accenture. And now we work
together at Google. So Iconsider you to be a wonderful
friend and colleague, so excitedto talk about your career
journey today. Saying
Saira Alikhan (01:33):
thank you so much. It's it's been great
working with you and getting toknow you better as a friend. And
yes, it's, it's been wonderful.
Working together.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (01:44):
Awesome.
So you've had a really rich andinteresting career journey,
you've held some wonderfulpositions where you have
acquired, strong legal skill setand business skill set. And we
want to talk today about how youpivoted from your first job to
(02:04):
your next job and ended up atGoogle, because there's a lot
there. And while you've built agreat career, you've been
challenges along the way. Andwe'll talk about those
challenges, tools you'veacquired and nuggets of wisdom
you've acquired along the waythat you can share with the
guests.
Saira Alikhan (02:26):
Yes, absolutely.
I've been a lawyer for 19 years.
So I guess I can considermyself. Well experienced, I
would say. And yeah, I've had ahuge breadth of experience. And
(02:47):
those 19 years. And some wouldsay that it is unusual. I think
that I have a lot of pride inthe diversity of legal
experience that I've had eachrole has prepared me for the
next and catapulted me into acareer that I didn't otherwise
(03:09):
think that I could get into orbreak, break into tech. I
started out as a municipal cityattorney in 2005 for my first
legal job. And now I am acommercial advisor manager at
(03:33):
Google where I advise seniorsales leadership and cloud deal
structuring and negotiate ourcloud contracts with, you know,
large fortune 500 companies.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (03:48):
Okay, wonderful, amazing. So before we
get into the nitty gritty, let'sstart at the beginning. Your
parents are immigrants. You wereborn in the United States, but
first child of your parents tobe born in the United States. Is
that right?
Saira Alikhan (04:03):
Yes. Fun fact. I am the first US citizen in my
family of four small family. Ihave one brother, my dad is from
India. And my mother is fromLondon and name moved to the US
in 1981. I was born and theycame here for the American
(04:23):
dream. They wanted to have abetter life for themselves and
for their children. And I thinkthat they were well able to
establish that.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (04:35):
Okay, great parents from India, in
London. And they moved to theUnited States from the UK. Is
that right?
Saira Alikhan (04:43):
Yes, they they met in the UK. My dad went to
college there he met my mother.
And then they had my brother inthe UK spent some time there and
then moved to the US in 1980.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (04:59):
Okay, So I know, you know that the way
race is handled or dealt with inthe UK is different from the
United States, particularly forpeople of color or black people.
What was your experience growingup with race? Because when I
(05:21):
look at you, you look like whatin the United States will be
identified as a black person.
And I imagine that that's howyou were seen and viewed and
treated. But what's yourexperience with that, like, I
think this is just be aninteresting conversation. It
Saira Alikhan (05:42):
is, I am a bi racial person. So my mom is
black, identify as black, my dadis Indian so. And, you know,
growing up, I didn't really havea sense of either of those
races, or identifiers, I justknew myself to be Syrah.
(06:06):
Obviously, my skin color wasdifferent, but I didn't have any
kind of insight into what thatmeant. Or if there would be any
consequences for having adifferent skin tone than, you
know, the people I went toschool with, and predominantly
white areas. So, you know,because my dad's Indian, he
(06:30):
can't really identify with beinga black person in the US, he
didn't have that experience, youknow, sure. He is well versed in
the civil rights era. You know,he was born in the 1940s. And,
you know, there was some elementof that in England as well, that
I'm sure my mom, you know, grewup with. She was also born in
(06:51):
the late 1940s. But they justdid not have any sense of what
that meant in the US. And theynever really talked to me about
it. So everything that I learnedabout race was kind of on my
own, and through experience,whether it was good or bad. And,
you know, it, it is somethingthat I wish they would have
(07:13):
prepared me for. Because kind ofgoing through it and learning on
your own can be pretty tough.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (07:21):
Yes, I imagined, so I imagined so. So,
you know, I feel like we'refriends. So we talk. And
although our experience orbackground with race and how our
parents taught it to us, or howwe learned that we were black,
is different. I think there'sstill strong parallels there. So
(07:45):
for me, I grew up in Memphis,Tennessee, my parents also born
in the 40s, lived throughsegregation. And then United
States, lived through the CivilRights Movement, went through
integration, marched onWashington with Dr. Martin
Luther King. So they knowfirsthand what it means to be a
(08:08):
black person in the UnitedStates or an African American
person in the United States. Andthere's lots of pain and trauma
that comes with that. So the waymy parents chose to address that
they definitely informed us ofhistory. They let us know the
things that they hadexperienced. But they never
(08:31):
instilled hatred, and us towardracist people. They wanted us to
feel like we can achieveanything we wanted to achieve in
the United States. They, it wasnever a discussion or
implication like, oh, you know,there are people who don't want
to see you succeed, or, youknow, it's going to be hard for
(08:52):
you because you're black,because they wanted us to feel
like we could just conquer theworld, right? And I was in all
black schools from kindergartenthrough 12th grade, upper middle
class. That was my reality. LikeI didn't, I knew I was black,
but I didn't know that the worldfelt like that was a bad thing.
(09:14):
Or would create challenges forme throughout my life because of
that, right? And so that wasgood. But I had that confidence
to just feel like I could soarand try anything. But when I
decided to pivot, from teachingand my comfortable network in
Memphis, to being a lawyer inChicago, that naivety did not
(09:38):
completely serve me. It helpedme like the LEAP who thought
like I could do anything butwhen it was time to cut heart,
my legal career journey, I wouldhave needed to really understand
what I was up against as aperson of color and as a woman
in a City where the lawyers areplentiful is a super competitive
(10:04):
race shape. Yeah, so do you. AndI think that you too, had a bit
of naivete, but it wasn't bychoice. It was a little bit
different.
Saira Alikhan (10:17):
Yeah, I mean, 100%, I would have liked to have
had a network, or people to, tokind of pick their brains about
what it was like, eitherpracticing as a black attorney,
as a woman, attorney, someonepracticing in Chicago, all the
(10:38):
things that you brought up, Idid not really have that
network. You know, my parentsdidn't. They both were working
professionals. But they, theyweren't lawyers, they didn't
have that advice to give to me.
My mom did introduce me to acouple of lawyers that she
worked with, and they were whitemen. So they, you know, we're
(11:01):
not going to kind of broach thattopic with me. And again, I was
in a predominantly whiteneighborhood. So my parents
being in an interracialmarriage, you know, they
obviously were more comfortablewith with race and differences,
and I think other people mayhave, there may be in the US.
(11:24):
And I don't think it's somethingthat they really thought about,
you know, when I think back tomy childhood, I think there were
instances that that I couldconsider to be racist, but I
don't know if it really crossedmy parents mind if they felt the
same about those. And even asI've gotten older, and they've
(11:45):
lived in kind of thesepredominantly white
neighborhoods, I've, I've, I'venoticed, looks that they get
comments people make and theydon't seem bothered by it. They
like the the nature, the sceneryof where they live, and you
know, that's fine with them. SoI really do respect that because
it doesn't hinder them, itdoesn't bother them. But for me,
(12:09):
in my experience, it was alittle bit different, where I
think it has directly affectedmy ability to succeed in certain
areas. So I think it's justdifferent experiences for
different people.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (12:25):
Yes, yep.
I agree with that. Um, why didyou decide to become a lawyer?
When When did you know that thatwas something you wanted to do?
I
Saira Alikhan (12:37):
knew pretty early on. I mean, when I was younger,
of course, there were notions ofbeing a ballerina, or, you know,
wanted to be a veterinarian atone point. But then I was like,
Oh, I can't deal with the bloodand surgeries and stuff like
that. But once I got over thosephases, I pretty much knew I
(12:57):
wanted to be a lawyer. And youknow, it's funny when, when you
have kids that are outspoken, oryou know, are good at making
arguments, a lot of people willkind of push you towards being a
lawyer, or will say, makecomments at all, you'll be a
good lawyer, you know, youyou're good at arguing it. And I
(13:19):
think I fell into that camp. I'mpretty outspoken, I've been an
outspoken person. Since I wasyoung. I mean, there's bits of
shyness in me, I have a duality.
But when I when I feel likesomething is unjust, I'll
definitely speak up. And I dohave convictions, which I got
from my parents that are both,you know, pretty well, moral
(13:40):
people. So, you know, my dadalso, I think, had notions of
being an attorney when he wasyounger, but unfortunately, his
parents are stemmed to be anaccountant. And that's the
profession that he chose. Andfor me, I think it was a little
bit of him steering me towardsbeing a lawyer, me really
(14:02):
identifying what the work thequality of being a lawyer, I
really wanted to help people. Ihave this innate drive to help
humanity to help people. Andthat is something that has
stayed with me for a very longtime and continues to so it was
just something that I've alwayskind of wanted to do from very
(14:23):
young and I never wavered fromthat.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (14:29):
Okay, great. So it was time to go to
law school and you know, knowyou applied several places. And
I know you applied to Loyolawhere you ended up going and you
also apply to Howard law andHBCU. So, on some level you
(14:49):
probably kind of knew or feltlike an environment where you
were supported as a black womanand nurtured with I was going to
be valuable, but ultimately youchose Loyola do I wouldn't say
regret because I don't likeregrets. But do you think that
if you had chosen the HBCU pathfor law school, that your career
(15:15):
trajectory as a woman of colorwould have been different? Oh,
Saira Alikhan (15:20):
yeah. 100%? You know, I think without the
alternative timeline that may beout there the alternative
universe? Yes. I mean, gone toHoward, and how much different
my career would look, you know,I ended up chose choosing Loyola
because I was, I am very familyoriented, my parents were
(15:41):
getting older at that time, andwanted me to spend more time
with them, and live in Chicago,they are in the northwest
suburbs. So I was happy to dothat. But I did want to kind of
branch out and attend otherschools. So I applied to Howard,
(16:02):
I applied to some schools in NewYork City. You know, and I did
end up getting accepted intoHoward. I didn't, you know, I
didn't go for the reasons that Imentioned. But I think Howard
would have been a great choice.
And my life would have beendifferent because a there is
that that network of black folksbuilt in, there's a lot of
(16:23):
people that are successful, andpolitics are successful in
business, you know, differentareas where I think that network
would have really come into playand been helpful for me to
elevate various positions that Ihaven't been able to reach. You
know, when you think about hownetworking happens, and white
(16:46):
spaces, that's that's how that'show it happens. People elevate
people they know, their friends,their their kids, friends, you
know,
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (16:57):
people who are like them, which
actually, you can see, you know,we are trying to create a
different future where bias doesnot influence who you hire and
select. But the bottom line isthat it's still they're pretty
entrenched in our in ourculture, but you hire people who
(17:17):
you like, who and who are likeyou,
Saira Alikhan (17:21):
exactly the people that surround you. And so
having that network would havewould have been very pivotal for
me. I think I maybe would be onCapitol Hill, maybe a career in
politics, which I was mildlyinterested in at one point. But
yeah, that was one of thereasons I applied there. Because
there is that large, blacknetwork, and it's considered to
(17:45):
be a very prestigious school.
Because of that.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (17:50):
Yep. No, I totally agree with all of
that. I know, I have threecollege age children. And so one
of my children is currentlyconsidering going to an HBCU for
all of those reasons. And I,because I've, I'm living this
(18:11):
life, having to create a networkthat, that understands me,
supports me and has alreadycreated pathways for me as a
woman of color, because Iunderstand the importance of
that in your career is moreimportant than what you know,
almost. Absolutely. Who youknow, and having that
(18:32):
sponsorship, like 100% supporther in that and almost now like
pushing her that way.
Saira Alikhan (18:39):
Yeah. 100% I don't think that I understood
the value of network as much asI do now. You know, when I was
younger, I didn't think that itwould be that impactful. I
thought, my work my knowledge,intelligence would speak for
(19:01):
itself and get me the place Ineeded to and the girl
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (19:05):
and my just naive. Me to I was just
like, Oh my God, my resume isamazing. Like, why wouldn't you
want to hire me for my first jobout of law school? gymnasium,
gripped and rejection rejection.
And after a while, it's justlike, Oh, my God, you know, you
start to question your value,you know, and am I really good
(19:30):
as I think as good as I think Iam? Or am I not just accepted by
by people, but that's not it.
It's very competitive. There aretons and tons of people who are
very good and have great resumeslike you. You need a sponsor.
Yeah, that's for you and walkyou through the door. Yes,
Saira Alikhan (19:52):
I mean, preach.
You bring up a really greatpoint and it's easy to feel low
during those times where you'regetting rejection after
rejection because you don't havethe the network because you
don't have the sponsorship, youdon't have the foot in the door.
And you know, I am guilty of ofalso feeling like maybe I don't
deserve these things or maybeI'm not good enough or maybe
(20:13):
there's just that many betterpeople out there in. It's easy
to get into that mindset. But Iwant you know, any listener that
that's feeling that way rightnow to to remember that it's you
know, it likely doesn't have todo with your resume. And it is
that networking and sponsorshipthat you need, because people
(20:35):
want to help other people theyknow, they're not just going to
pluck you out of a resume of youknow, 3000. And it looks the
best. It's just not
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (20:48):
exactly.
I went to a networking andbranding workshop this past
weekend put on by Shereena mayEdwards and lovey Jones and
Shereena said, Okay, when youapply to jobs on LinkedIn, you
are applying to a black hole.
Yes, yeah. Some people had luck,you know, getting jobs that way.
(21:09):
But most of the time, you know,no, you need somebody to flag
your resume. Yeah, exactly.
Saira Alikhan (21:17):
Exactly. I do wonder whether or not there is
merit to having a more whitename or having a name that is
male. And I would like toparticipate in that experiment
one day. So interesting.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (21:30):
But I think you say that because when
my because my parents that arein their error of naming
children because of what theyhad experienced, they gave us
names like that. You couldn'ttell what race you are Rhonda
Coleman, you know, my brother isRoderick, and my little sisters,
Rosie, so they didn't want usdiscriminated against off the
(21:53):
bat. Right. Yeah. But mychildren, you know, I have a
Minaya. And that's an Egyptianname. And I have a Kimani you
know, other African name, myname then my mother was like,
Are you sure? And I'm like, Whatare you talking about? Mom,
these names are gorgeous Minayameans much as expected of her.
(22:13):
Fortunately, I think I thinkthat's not as as as big of an
issue as it was. But like yousaid, Be interesting to see what
the data says.
Saira Alikhan (22:24):
It sure would. I don't think my name helps my
case, you know, most peoplecan't pronounce IRA and alikhan
is just nobody really even.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (22:38):
That's funny. So let's talk about your
first job. Because when I wastalking to you about him, I know
you I didn't know a lot of thesethings about you the jobs that
you had what you did the amazingexperience that you gained. How
did you end up at your firstjob?
Saira Alikhan (22:57):
It was kind of by happenstance, you know, as a
young law student, I had dreamedof making, you know, the
$150,000 a year and I just knewthat was going to be me. And,
you know, a year rolled aroundand on campus interviewing
(23:20):
started. And you know, I gotsome really great interviews,
but I didn't get a lot of offersfrom those large firms that
attend those OCI events, andkind of dangle that carrot. I
ended up getting an offer fromthe city and I decided to take
(23:42):
that role in labor andemployment. And I didn't really
have any notions of being alabor and employment attorney
before, you know, I don't eventhink I had taken any real
classes and law schoolsurrounding that. You know, I
was actually really interestedin torts. And for some reason, I
(24:06):
don't know why I wanted to dopersonal injury. But because I
got this offer, and kind of itwas really only my only offer, I
decided to take it. And it endedup being really great. Because,
you know, government ischronically under resourced, and
(24:31):
I was able to get a lot ofexperience really quickly. I was
handling hearings. Right off thebat, I was handling a lot of
motions, things that a lot of mypeers that were probably at
those large firms were, youknow, not seeing it at their
experience level. And so as muchas I was saddened by the fact
(24:57):
that I wasn't making that 158Okay, significantly less, by the
way, I was getting rich inexperience, and, you know,
amassing administrative hearingsand trials under my belt and
dealing with some really cooland interesting fact patterns
(25:18):
of, you know, police disciplineor, you know, discrimination
claims. So that started to openmy eyes to the possibilities of
of continuing to be in laboremployment, and I wanted to do
that.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (25:36):
Okay. So labor and employment for the
city of Chicago, and why did youdecide to leave that position
and where to go after that.
Saira Alikhan (25:51):
I had worked there for a couple of years. And
like I said, got really greatexperience and my colleagues
were fantastic. I just felt likeI needed to be able to make a
little bit more money. And therewas still this sense of, you
know, stigma, I think,associated with government work.
(26:14):
And I wanted to be able to showthat I, you know, can rise above
that, and be part of the privatesector, I got an opportunity to
work at a small insurancedefense firm where I could
continue this employmentpractice, as well as work on
(26:36):
some personal injury cases. And,you know, as I mentioned, in law
school, I really was interestedin torts, negligence cases. So I
thought that would be great tocheckout. And I did that for a
little while and, and got somegood trial experience. Do you
(26:56):
think actually, I did get goodtrial experience there in state
court. Before that, you know, atthe city, I was I was working
mostly in administrativehearings. So now I'm in state
court handling cases, myselfstepping up for status hearings,
and arguing motions and whatnot.
So that was really exciting forme. And I worked at that
(27:17):
position for about less than ayear, it was tough for me,
because going from working forthe government to private
practice is night and day,because your billing hours now
you have a yearly, annualbillable requirement that at the
(27:42):
time, I didn't realize wassignificantly high. And we
required me to work 6070 hours aweek. And sometimes my hours
were getting cut, because theclient didn't want to pay for
those hours, because they feltlike it was taking me too long
(28:04):
to do certain things. So I wouldbe penalized as a result. So I
found that to be too difficultto maintain. Mm hmm.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (28:18):
Yeah, so let's talk a bit about so you
know, you've mentioned threepositions. And the first one,
you you work there two years,you amassed this wonderful skill
set, you had a lot of liberties,a lot of responsibility, you
were handling your own cases.
Because oftentimes, governmentis short, short staffed, they
(28:39):
don't have a ton of money. Sothey let you just go for it. So
that was great. And you enjoyedthat you enjoyed the
responsibility, you enjoy thework, the advocacy work, but it
didn't pay enough. So I feellike we're always kind of trying
to find balance between what welove what we're passionate
(29:02):
about, and what we think, youknow, we need to be able to
support ourselves and ourfamilies financially. Yeah,
short term and the long term.
But it sounds like you were alsothere was something else in the
mix. You mentioned the stigma,or a stigma around government
(29:23):
work. And so for me, this soundslike okay, external influence
external pressures that we haveto live up to in order to be
considered a success. And youearly on in your career, maybe a
coach or mentor could havehelped you tease some of that
(29:46):
out because I think that keepsus from following our passions
sometimes and what we love andputs us on somebody else's path
or trajectory, which It's nevergood. No, there's a lot of
tension on that path of whatwe're supposed to do, versus
(30:07):
what we love to do and what wewant to do. Exactly.
Saira Alikhan (30:12):
I love how you, you brought that up, because you
know, that's just been a commontheme throughout my career is
this kind of push pull tensionwith what I want to be doing and
what my passion is, and then bebeing able to take care of
myself and my family in a waythat I feel comfortable doing.
You know, there shouldn't haveto be that tension. But there
(30:34):
there is, for me, as I mentionedearlier, I really wanted to
advocate and help people. But Ifound myself getting positions
at companies or, you know,government roles, which were
defense. And so I wasn'tdefending the people that I want
it to be, I wasn't advocatingfor the people that I wanted to
(30:56):
be advocating for. I wasdefending kind of these
organizations, thesecorporations, which was an
opposite to why I wanted tobecome a lawyer. But those were
the roles that I was getting,those were the roles that were
paying. And, yeah, like, youbringing up the fact that it
(31:16):
would have been helpful to havea coach earlier on in my career
100%, I went straight throughfrom college to law school to
working, I had no real workingexperience outside of working
summers in college, or I wasyounger, you know. So I wasn't
really familiar with thepolitics or how things work in a
(31:39):
corporate or government setting.
And I'm sure a lot of things areflying over my head, because I
just didn't know to look out forthem.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (31:47):
Exactly.
Exactly. Yes. And it'sinteresting. I mean, the earlier
you get coaching, the better.
And I mean, like even at the athigh school, middle school, you
know what I mean? Yes? Arepeople like my children? And
(32:09):
children who are in your orbit,have the benefit of our
experience? Right, in corporateAmerica, like I can talk to my
daughters and my son, I can kindof gear or push them toward
certain positions andopportunities within a
corporate, you know, environmentand tell them no, you don't want
that one. Because that's too lowof a level for you. Right? It
(32:33):
took you too long to get towhere you really supposed to be.
So don't accept that. Yes. Whichkind of takes me to a point
where it's not a question in mynotes. About like, when you
don't quite understand thelandscape that you're stepping
into, you don't quite know whatit means to accept the position
(32:54):
at a level that is beneath yourskill set. What that really
means for you economically, noteven economically, just kind of
emotionally and morally. Onceyou get there. And you realize,
wait a minute, like I'm i Why ismy level this right? Next
person's level is a level aboveme. Yes. Can you talk a little
(33:20):
bit about that? Just in general?
Yes,
Saira Alikhan (33:24):
I mean, again, these are these are things, as
you mentioned, that I would haveloved to know, when I was
younger, and I went in blind. SoI accepted levels that were kind
of given to me, I did try tonegotiate, you know, as I
learned, to negotiate for higherlevels, but I think for me, the
(33:46):
argument that was mostly madewas, I was not as experienced,
you know, in my younger years,and I was typically trying a new
area of the law. And for me, Iliked being able to learn
different areas of the law, itwas interesting for me to
(34:09):
continue to learn about legalareas and kind of form a full
picture of how things work andinterlock. And that just
satiated my curiosity I reallylike to learn and I guess I'm
kind of a legal nerd. But Ithought that that would really
(34:29):
also just help my skill set andup level me in a way that people
who are specializing in one areaof the law wouldn't really be
able to match. Having somebodylike me with knowledge of
different areas of the law, Ican problem solve quicker and
differently. And somebody that'sonly focused on one specific
(34:53):
area, but to your point, youknow, feeling as though you're
underleveled when you You haveall of these other skills that
maybe aren't being considered asvaluable for whatever reason,
you know, there's somesubjective reason that they
don't find XYZ to be valuable.
It is, you know, it isdisappointing and totality, it
(35:15):
has an effect on your pay has aneffect on you emotionally, it
has an effect on youradvancement. And I think being
able to anticipate that andnotice and see kind of those
patterns or those red flags,right would have been very
(35:36):
valuable for me as a youngerattorney. And I'm still doing
that to this day, you know,there's a lot of corporate speak
that happens, people don't fullyunderstand some of the roles
that they take on despite theirbest efforts, you could ask as
many questions as possible tokind of dig deep, but, you know,
(35:57):
you may not be gettingtransparent answers. And so
it's, it's a dance that is, isvery important to understand
very early on. Right?
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (36:11):
Yes. And to network up so that you create
as many alliances with peoplewho are in the positions of
power. Yeah, within Corp in thecorporate structure, whether
it's your corporation that youwork in, or another one, so that
they can be your guide, throughthrough that jungle.
Saira Alikhan (36:33):
Exactly, exactly.
It's, it's tricky. Companieswant to save money. And they can
do that by either leveling you,at a certain level or offering
you XYZ amount. So it'simportant to know your worth and
really fight for that.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (36:52):
Yep, definitely important to know
your worth important tounderstand the value of your
skill set, and kind of packageand market and brand yourself in
a way where you have to maybeteach the the entity hiring you
or looking at your resume, whyyour unique skill set
(37:15):
combination is valuable, and ownthat and then don't accept
anything less right than whatyou know you deserve because it
exists it exist, it may not bein the place that you're
looking, you might need to turnyour head to the right. And you
might need to kind of plug intoa sponsors network or you know,
(37:38):
coaches network, but it exists.
So don't feel like you have totake take the lower level or you
have to take this position overhere. You don't have to accept
the explanation that you don'thave these skills, or you don't
have this or this is in technow. And you got two years of
(38:01):
tech only know, you know, I mayhave two years of tech, but I've
got 10 years of investing, whichis going to make me a more
valuable and impactful employee.
And don't pretend like you don'tknow that. Yeah, talking to per
hiring and to don't pretend likeyou don't know that, like you're
(38:23):
not getting the benefit of allof this. Yeah, yes.
Saira Alikhan (38:27):
Yes. Very excellent points.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (38:30):
Okay, so you. So where are we made it to
three positions? Where did yougo next?
Saira Alikhan (38:41):
I ended up going to a large firm, after a brief
stint at this Pei firm, I wentto a large firm. And this goes
back to how you want to be seen.
So in law school, everybody'sdream was to work for the large
(39:02):
firm to make that excellent payto get those great benefits. And
I had an opportunity to do that,and employ employment once
again. So I took it. And itdidn't make me as happy as I
thought it would have. Yes, Iwas getting more pay. And I was
(39:25):
able to live more comfortablythan I had been before. But I
was working extremely longhours. And I felt like I was
just put in this back room,proverbial neck room and
reviewing docs for hours andhours on end. Where before I was
(39:46):
going to court every day, I washandling depositions on my own.
I was creating litigationstrategy for the cases that I
was handling As I was answeringdiscovery higher I wanted to.
And I felt like although I hadprogressed in my economic
stature, I was now regressing inmy legal skill. area, because I
(40:12):
was just reviewing documentsafter documents for discovery
for these employment cases. So,you know, I worked for a couple
of years at this large firm andgot that experience. And I was
provided a job opening for astate government role by a
(40:41):
friend of mine. And they said,hey, you know, they're hiring.
And I was like, I don't know,he, you know, it's gonna be a
huge pay cut. You know, I feellike I'm regressing. I had left
a government role that I hadinitially my first job out of
(41:01):
law school, and I just don'tknow if this is going to
progress my career in a way thatI want. But I decided to apply
for it any any way. It wasaround 2008, things were really
shaky at large law firms withthe crash and the economy, just
not really doing that well. So Ithought I'd just explore. And I
(41:26):
ended up passing all theinterviews and getting an offer,
which was significantly lessthan I was currently making. But
I made the decision to go aheadand go for it. Because I knew I
was going to get the things thatI was craving, I was going to be
(41:51):
in court every day I was goingto be able to do trials. You
know, if you haven't guessed, Iwas a litigator for the first
half of my career. So that waswhat I really enjoyed doing, not
sitting in a room, reviewingdocuments. So despite there
being a major pay cut, I feltlike I would go with the passion
and take this role. And it wasbilled as an employment law
(42:17):
role. And when I took it, I wasnot put in The Employment Law
Group. I was put in anothergroup that mainly did civil
rights litigation for prisoners.
And I was didn't
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (42:37):
switch there will be a little bit of
that experience.
Saira Alikhan (42:42):
Yeah. And I was a little bit concerned. Because I
was like, Well, what, what isthis? And they were like, well,
you'll be able to switch to theEmployment Law Group at some
point, blah, blah, blah. Sookay, I started doing it. And
yeah, I'm in federal court,boom, day one, and I'm in
(43:06):
federal court every single day,and doing a lot of motion
practice and back in where Iwant to be. And now at a at a
level that tie. Federal Court ismuch different than state court,
and you have to be veryprepared. Always, your motion
writing has to be very onpoint.
Your oral arguments have to bevery eloquent. And, you know, I
(43:28):
was doing that every single day.
And I amassed a lot ofexperience working for the state
government for four years. And Ihandled three federal trials and
was the lead on them and one,every single one. So it was a
(43:49):
really great move for me to takethat pay cut, because I got a
lot of experience that becomebecame very valuable to me, and
for me in my next career steps.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (44:08):
Yeah, I think that's major that you
realized, I'm getting paid a lotof money, but I'm miserable. And
I'd rather do something I'mpassionate about where I
actually feel like I'm growingas a human X is expanding as a
person in addition to building askill set that I want and took
(44:32):
the lower pay, cut and enjoyedvariances by the bait and
switch.
Saira Alikhan (44:38):
Yeah, there were a couple of times that I didn't
have enough money to pay billsand they actually the state
didn't have enough money to paymy bill sometimes. But it was
really the camaraderie I hadwith colleagues there that kept
me going. We were all very closeand willing to help each other
out and we were all the stewardsof our own cases. So we were all
(45:01):
experts in our various areas andmore treated like professionals
as such.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (45:08):
Okay, so we got to fast forward to tech,
because yeah, tech now. So howdid you make the transition from
being a litigator primarily forgovernment to being a tech,
virtual transactional attorney.
For fortune 500 company,
Saira Alikhan (45:32):
I was able to use all of that great child's skill
and litigation knowledge that Ipicked up in the government. And
I was recruited to a boutiqueintellectual property firm, and
handled their trademarklitigation cases as well as
commercial litigation. And onceI understood and learned about
(46:01):
IP, that became the key tounlocking the next steps in my
career and tech. So obviously, Ihad never done tech before in my
career, I was doing mostly laborand employment, some PII, some
civil rights. You know, at thatpoint in time, in my career, I
(46:23):
had never really thought abouttech, I didn't have a technical
background, I didn't have ascience background. You know, I
didn't really take any IPcourses in school. It just
didn't occur to me to besomething that I could do. And I
always felt kind of barred fromit. You know, I didn't know if I
had to be a patent attorney andtake the past. And that was all
(46:44):
up to me. I was like, No way amI doing? No, I don't even
understand what they're talkingabout. But this stint at this
boutique IP firm really gave methat confidence and knowledge
that I was adaptable andflexible and can learn quickly,
regardless of the area of lawthat I was in. So I was able to
(47:07):
learn a lot, and kind of parlaythat into a skill set suitable
for Tech, I was able to join atop consulting firm as a
commercial counsel, utilizing myskill set and IP litigation, and
(47:29):
my knowledge of litigation ingeneral. So I had never really
done commercial contracting workbefore, though, there was kind
of a steep learning curve. Butthe draw that I was able to make
was my experience in litigationwill help me to be a better
(47:49):
drafter. I know what ends upgoing to litigation, I
understand how it will play out,I can anticipate these issues
and the drafting, versus thekind of being dealt with at a
litigation stage. And that was areally persuasive argument for
this company. And they hired meon despite me not really having
(48:13):
that background and commercialcontracting, I was able to adapt
and flex pretty quickly andlearn how to do it with some
help from great colleagues suchas yourself. Yes. Some other
wonderful folks at CES,
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (48:28):
you had somebody who had worked with you
early on in your governmentlitigation career, to vouch for
you. So basically, a bit of asponsor.
Saira Alikhan (48:39):
Yes, I had a great sponsor. I had a really
great friend and colleague, thatalso worked there that
recommended me. You know, like Imentioned, a lot of us at the
state legal team, we're close.
And so she had moved on to thisconsulting firm and knew that I
(49:03):
was kind of looking to make acareer jump because I really did
need to make more money. And sherecommended me and that
sponsorship really helped meout, you know, as well as my,
the experience that I wasbringing to that role.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (49:23):
Okay, wonderful. So we have covered a
lot of ground today. You havetaken us through each of your
career trajectory. We'veexplored each of the stops on
that path. Looked at thetransferable skills that have
gone and fed into the next roleand you're continuing to grow
(49:46):
and expand which I love. Youknow, you're not you're not kind
of stopping saying well, this isthis I'm just gonna stop here.
And, you know, this is this isthe best it's gonna be for me
you continue to seek and lookfor I look for what is you're
looking for balance between whatit is you love to do. And you
(50:09):
know the economic package thatyou need to be able to be
comfortable with. I've lovedI've loved hearing about your
journey, what pivot pearls ofwisdom would you leave our
listeners with today?
Saira Alikhan (50:27):
We've hit a lot of them, you know, there's been
so many gems and this already.
But the main points are tobasically always be adaptable,
always be flexible, be open todifferent experiences. For me,
if I had plotted or charted mycareer progression, coming out
(50:48):
of law school, it would not havelooked like this. And I took
leaps of faith, and I did thingsthat, you know, I maybe would
not have done, but they all ledme to a new opportunity, a
better opportunity, and gave memore tools for my arsenal and
(51:09):
skill set. And I think that'shuge, just being open. And, you
know, the themes that we talkedabout earlier, try to get that
network, build that network,really keep it up, nurture that
network, find sponsorship, it'sreally important to have that.
(51:31):
If you don't, you're justswimming in a pool of real
sharks, it's difficult reallyadvance and especially in a big
city with a very large legalcommunity, it can start to get
small once you get to knowfolks. And you'll get to know
(51:51):
the players. And when you get arelationship with them, those
people will think about you andyou'll be top of mind for for
various opportunities. That'swhat got me this role that I
have currently at Google is, youknow, somebody that I worked
with, at the consulting firmmoved over to Google and thought
(52:15):
about me as being somebody thatwould be a good fit for the role
that I'm currently in now. And Iwould have never thought that I
would be working at Google. Thatis not something that I would
have charted on my career path.
I didn't even think it wassomething that I could achieve.
And it has been a huge milestonefor me, because not many people
(52:37):
can say that they work atGoogle, the interview process
is, is pretty, pretty difficult.
So you know, it's it's somethingthat I wear with a badge of
honor.
Rhonda Coleman Wande (52:51):
Wonderful, great. I can completely relate
to all of that. Yep, I rememberthat. I did not think that I
would ever have a career in Techbecause I didn't have that
patent background. I didn't havethe technical undergraduate
degree that I, I thought youneeded this is just kind of
going off of just not maybe ifmy network had been bigger, or
(53:17):
different. Maybe I would haveunderstood the role of a
commercial lawyer in anycorporation and how that skill
set transfers across industries.
And when our recruiter from atech company reached out to me
and they were like, Oh my God,we love your commercial skill
set. And I was like my wife. Shesays, oh, yeah, we need we need
a lawyer to draft complexcommercial agreements. And it
(53:40):
was like Facebook or something.
It's not Facebook anymore, butit was Facebook. And I was just
like, Whoa, I didn't realizethat my skill set fit within
tech. And then I started to kindof look so yes, I can relate to
all of that. Well, thank you somuch. Saira, this has been
wonderful, excited for people tolisten to this episode. And
(54:07):
can't wait to get feedback.
Saira Alikhan (54:08):
Thank you so much, Rhonda. It was really
great talking to you today.
Hi, I'm Rhonda Coleman Wandel and
welcome to my podcast. Andtoday's episode I'm talking to
Saira Ali Khan. Saira is aSenior Commercial attorney at
Google, bringing a wealth ofexperience and insights to our
conversation. In our talk today,we'll explore her experience
(00:38):
with race in the US as animmigrant, and the impact it's
had on her career trajectory.
Also, Saira has charted a uniquecareer path chock full of rich
experiences and powerful pivots.
And she's going to take usthrough her journey. If you're
looking to pivot in your careeror simply seeking inspiration,
(00:59):
this episode is definitely foryou. Lots of gems in this
episode, y'all. Let's dive in.
Hi Saira, welcome to thepodcast.
Saira Alikhan (01:11):
Hi, Rhonda, thanks so much for having me.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (01:14):
I'm so excited to have you on the
podcast. You've been mycolleague for the past five
years. Because we work togetherand Accenture. And now we work
together at Google. So Iconsider you to be a wonderful
friend and colleague, so excitedto talk about your career
journey today. Saying
Saira Alikhan (01:33):
thank you so much. It's it's been great
working with you and getting toknow you better as a friend. And
yes, it's, it's been wonderful.
Working together.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (01:44):
Awesome.
So you've had a really rich andinteresting career journey,
you've held some wonderfulpositions where you have
acquired, strong legal skill setand business skill set. And we
want to talk today about how youpivoted from your first job to
(02:04):
your next job and ended up atGoogle, because there's a lot
there. And while you've built agreat career, you've been
challenges along the way. Andwe'll talk about those
challenges, tools you'veacquired and nuggets of wisdom
you've acquired along the waythat you can share with the
guests.
Saira Alikhan (02:26):
Yes, absolutely.
I've been a lawyer for 19 years.
So I guess I can considermyself. Well experienced, I
would say. And yeah, I've had ahuge breadth of experience. And
(02:47):
those 19 years. And some wouldsay that it is unusual. I think
that I have a lot of pride inthe diversity of legal
experience that I've had eachrole has prepared me for the
next and catapulted me into acareer that I didn't otherwise
(03:09):
think that I could get into orbreak, break into tech. I
started out as a municipal cityattorney in 2005 for my first
legal job. And now I am acommercial advisor manager at
(03:33):
Google where I advise seniorsales leadership and cloud deal
structuring and negotiate ourcloud contracts with, you know,
large fortune 500 companies.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (03:48):
Okay, wonderful, amazing. So before we
get into the nitty gritty, let'sstart at the beginning. Your
parents are immigrants. You wereborn in the United States, but
first child of your parents tobe born in the United States. Is
that right?
Saira Alikhan (04:03):
Yes. Fun fact. I am the first US citizen in my
family of four small family. Ihave one brother, my dad is from
India. And my mother is fromLondon and name moved to the US
in 1981. I was born and theycame here for the American
(04:23):
dream. They wanted to have abetter life for themselves and
for their children. And I thinkthat they were well able to
establish that.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (04:35):
Okay, great parents from India, in
London. And they moved to theUnited States from the UK. Is
that right?
Saira Alikhan (04:43):
Yes, they they met in the UK. My dad went to
college there he met my mother.
And then they had my brother inthe UK spent some time there and
then moved to the US in 1980.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (04:59):
Okay, So I know, you know that the way
race is handled or dealt with inthe UK is different from the
United States, particularly forpeople of color or black people.
What was your experience growingup with race? Because when I
(05:21):
look at you, you look like whatin the United States will be
identified as a black person.
And I imagine that that's howyou were seen and viewed and
treated. But what's yourexperience with that, like, I
think this is just be aninteresting conversation. It
Saira Alikhan (05:42):
is, I am a bi racial person. So my mom is
black, identify as black, my dadis Indian so. And, you know,
growing up, I didn't really havea sense of either of those
races, or identifiers, I justknew myself to be Syrah.
(06:06):
Obviously, my skin color wasdifferent, but I didn't have any
kind of insight into what thatmeant. Or if there would be any
consequences for having adifferent skin tone than, you
know, the people I went toschool with, and predominantly
white areas. So, you know,because my dad's Indian, he
(06:30):
can't really identify with beinga black person in the US, he
didn't have that experience, youknow, sure. He is well versed in
the civil rights era. You know,he was born in the 1940s. And,
you know, there was some elementof that in England as well, that
I'm sure my mom, you know, grewup with. She was also born in
(06:51):
the late 1940s. But they justdid not have any sense of what
that meant in the US. And theynever really talked to me about
it. So everything that I learnedabout race was kind of on my
own, and through experience,whether it was good or bad. And,
you know, it, it is somethingthat I wish they would have
(07:13):
prepared me for. Because kind ofgoing through it and learning on
your own can be pretty tough.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (07:21):
Yes, I imagined, so I imagined so. So,
you know, I feel like we'refriends. So we talk. And
although our experience orbackground with race and how our
parents taught it to us, or howwe learned that we were black,
is different. I think there'sstill strong parallels there. So
(07:45):
for me, I grew up in Memphis,Tennessee, my parents also born
in the 40s, lived throughsegregation. And then United
States, lived through the CivilRights Movement, went through
integration, marched onWashington with Dr. Martin
Luther King. So they knowfirsthand what it means to be a
(08:08):
black person in the UnitedStates or an African American
person in the United States. Andthere's lots of pain and trauma
that comes with that. So the waymy parents chose to address that
they definitely informed us ofhistory. They let us know the
things that they hadexperienced. But they never
(08:31):
instilled hatred, and us towardracist people. They wanted us to
feel like we can achieveanything we wanted to achieve in
the United States. They, it wasnever a discussion or
implication like, oh, you know,there are people who don't want
to see you succeed, or, youknow, it's going to be hard for
(08:52):
you because you're black,because they wanted us to feel
like we could just conquer theworld, right? And I was in all
black schools from kindergartenthrough 12th grade, upper middle
class. That was my reality. LikeI didn't, I knew I was black,
but I didn't know that the worldfelt like that was a bad thing.
(09:14):
Or would create challenges forme throughout my life because of
that, right? And so that wasgood. But I had that confidence
to just feel like I could soarand try anything. But when I
decided to pivot, from teachingand my comfortable network in
Memphis, to being a lawyer inChicago, that naivety did not
(09:38):
completely serve me. It helpedme like the LEAP who thought
like I could do anything butwhen it was time to cut heart,
my legal career journey, I wouldhave needed to really understand
what I was up against as aperson of color and as a woman
in a City where the lawyers areplentiful is a super competitive
(10:04):
race shape. Yeah, so do you. AndI think that you too, had a bit
of naivete, but it wasn't bychoice. It was a little bit
different.
Saira Alikhan (10:17):
Yeah, I mean, 100%, I would have liked to have
had a network, or people to, tokind of pick their brains about
what it was like, eitherpracticing as a black attorney,
as a woman, attorney, someonepracticing in Chicago, all the
(10:38):
things that you brought up, Idid not really have that
network. You know, my parentsdidn't. They both were working
professionals. But they, theyweren't lawyers, they didn't
have that advice to give to me.
My mom did introduce me to acouple of lawyers that she
worked with, and they were whitemen. So they, you know, we're
(11:01):
not going to kind of broach thattopic with me. And again, I was
in a predominantly whiteneighborhood. So my parents
being in an interracialmarriage, you know, they
obviously were more comfortablewith with race and differences,
and I think other people mayhave, there may be in the US.
(11:24):
And I don't think it's somethingthat they really thought about,
you know, when I think back tomy childhood, I think there were
instances that that I couldconsider to be racist, but I
don't know if it really crossedmy parents mind if they felt the
same about those. And even asI've gotten older, and they've
(11:45):
lived in kind of thesepredominantly white
neighborhoods, I've, I've, I'venoticed, looks that they get
comments people make and theydon't seem bothered by it. They
like the the nature, the sceneryof where they live, and you
know, that's fine with them. SoI really do respect that because
it doesn't hinder them, itdoesn't bother them. But for me,
(12:09):
in my experience, it was alittle bit different, where I
think it has directly affectedmy ability to succeed in certain
areas. So I think it's justdifferent experiences for
different people.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (12:25):
Yes, yep.
I agree with that. Um, why didyou decide to become a lawyer?
When When did you know that thatwas something you wanted to do?
I
Saira Alikhan (12:37):
knew pretty early on. I mean, when I was younger,
of course, there were notions ofbeing a ballerina, or, you know,
wanted to be a veterinarian atone point. But then I was like,
Oh, I can't deal with the bloodand surgeries and stuff like
that. But once I got over thosephases, I pretty much knew I
(12:57):
wanted to be a lawyer. And youknow, it's funny when, when you
have kids that are outspoken, oryou know, are good at making
arguments, a lot of people willkind of push you towards being a
lawyer, or will say, makecomments at all, you'll be a
good lawyer, you know, youyou're good at arguing it. And I
(13:19):
think I fell into that camp. I'mpretty outspoken, I've been an
outspoken person. Since I wasyoung. I mean, there's bits of
shyness in me, I have a duality.
But when I when I feel likesomething is unjust, I'll
definitely speak up. And I dohave convictions, which I got
from my parents that are both,you know, pretty well, moral
(13:40):
people. So, you know, my dadalso, I think, had notions of
being an attorney when he wasyounger, but unfortunately, his
parents are stemmed to be anaccountant. And that's the
profession that he chose. Andfor me, I think it was a little
bit of him steering me towardsbeing a lawyer, me really
(14:02):
identifying what the work thequality of being a lawyer, I
really wanted to help people. Ihave this innate drive to help
humanity to help people. Andthat is something that has
stayed with me for a very longtime and continues to so it was
just something that I've alwayskind of wanted to do from very
(14:23):
young and I never wavered fromthat.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (14:29):
Okay, great. So it was time to go to
law school and you know, knowyou applied several places. And
I know you applied to Loyolawhere you ended up going and you
also apply to Howard law andHBCU. So, on some level you
(14:49):
probably kind of knew or feltlike an environment where you
were supported as a black womanand nurtured with I was going to
be valuable, but ultimately youchose Loyola do I wouldn't say
regret because I don't likeregrets. But do you think that
if you had chosen the HBCU pathfor law school, that your career
(15:15):
trajectory as a woman of colorwould have been different? Oh,
Saira Alikhan (15:20):
yeah. 100%? You know, I think without the
alternative timeline that may beout there the alternative
universe? Yes. I mean, gone toHoward, and how much different
my career would look, you know,I ended up chose choosing Loyola
because I was, I am very familyoriented, my parents were
(15:41):
getting older at that time, andwanted me to spend more time
with them, and live in Chicago,they are in the northwest
suburbs. So I was happy to dothat. But I did want to kind of
branch out and attend otherschools. So I applied to Howard,
(16:02):
I applied to some schools in NewYork City. You know, and I did
end up getting accepted intoHoward. I didn't, you know, I
didn't go for the reasons that Imentioned. But I think Howard
would have been a great choice.
And my life would have beendifferent because a there is
that that network of black folksbuilt in, there's a lot of
(16:23):
people that are successful, andpolitics are successful in
business, you know, differentareas where I think that network
would have really come into playand been helpful for me to
elevate various positions that Ihaven't been able to reach. You
know, when you think about hownetworking happens, and white
(16:46):
spaces, that's that's how that'show it happens. People elevate
people they know, their friends,their their kids, friends, you
know,
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (16:57):
people who are like them, which
actually, you can see, you know,we are trying to create a
different future where bias doesnot influence who you hire and
select. But the bottom line isthat it's still they're pretty
entrenched in our in ourculture, but you hire people who
(17:17):
you like, who and who are likeyou,
Saira Alikhan (17:21):
exactly the people that surround you. And so
having that network would havewould have been very pivotal for
me. I think I maybe would be onCapitol Hill, maybe a career in
politics, which I was mildlyinterested in at one point. But
yeah, that was one of thereasons I applied there. Because
there is that large, blacknetwork, and it's considered to
(17:45):
be a very prestigious school.
Because of that.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (17:50):
Yep. No, I totally agree with all of
that. I know, I have threecollege age children. And so one
of my children is currentlyconsidering going to an HBCU for
all of those reasons. And I,because I've, I'm living this
(18:11):
life, having to create a networkthat, that understands me,
supports me and has alreadycreated pathways for me as a
woman of color, because Iunderstand the importance of
that in your career is moreimportant than what you know,
almost. Absolutely. Who youknow, and having that
(18:32):
sponsorship, like 100% supporther in that and almost now like
pushing her that way.
Saira Alikhan (18:39):
Yeah. 100% I don't think that I understood
the value of network as much asI do now. You know, when I was
younger, I didn't think that itwould be that impactful. I
thought, my work my knowledge,intelligence would speak for
(19:01):
itself and get me the place Ineeded to and the girl
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (19:05):
and my just naive. Me to I was just
like, Oh my God, my resume isamazing. Like, why wouldn't you
want to hire me for my first jobout of law school? gymnasium,
gripped and rejection rejection.
And after a while, it's justlike, Oh, my God, you know, you
start to question your value,you know, and am I really good
(19:30):
as I think as good as I think Iam? Or am I not just accepted by
by people, but that's not it.
It's very competitive. There aretons and tons of people who are
very good and have great resumeslike you. You need a sponsor.
Yeah, that's for you and walkyou through the door. Yes,
Saira Alikhan (19:52):
I mean, preach.
You bring up a really greatpoint and it's easy to feel low
during those times where you'regetting rejection after
rejection because you don't havethe the network because you
don't have the sponsorship, youdon't have the foot in the door.
And you know, I am guilty of ofalso feeling like maybe I don't
deserve these things or maybeI'm not good enough or maybe
(20:13):
there's just that many betterpeople out there in. It's easy
to get into that mindset. But Iwant you know, any listener that
that's feeling that way rightnow to to remember that it's you
know, it likely doesn't have todo with your resume. And it is
that networking and sponsorshipthat you need, because people
(20:35):
want to help other people theyknow, they're not just going to
pluck you out of a resume of youknow, 3000. And it looks the
best. It's just not
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (20:48):
exactly.
I went to a networking andbranding workshop this past
weekend put on by Shereena mayEdwards and lovey Jones and
Shereena said, Okay, when youapply to jobs on LinkedIn, you
are applying to a black hole.
Yes, yeah. Some people had luck,you know, getting jobs that way.
(21:09):
But most of the time, you know,no, you need somebody to flag
your resume. Yeah, exactly.
Saira Alikhan (21:17):
Exactly. I do wonder whether or not there is
merit to having a more whitename or having a name that is
male. And I would like toparticipate in that experiment
one day. So interesting.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (21:30):
But I think you say that because when
my because my parents that arein their error of naming
children because of what theyhad experienced, they gave us
names like that. You couldn'ttell what race you are Rhonda
Coleman, you know, my brother isRoderick, and my little sisters,
Rosie, so they didn't want usdiscriminated against off the
(21:53):
bat. Right. Yeah. But mychildren, you know, I have a
Minaya. And that's an Egyptianname. And I have a Kimani you
know, other African name, myname then my mother was like,
Are you sure? And I'm like, Whatare you talking about? Mom,
these names are gorgeous Minayameans much as expected of her.
(22:13):
Fortunately, I think I thinkthat's not as as as big of an
issue as it was. But like yousaid, Be interesting to see what
the data says.
Saira Alikhan (22:24):
It sure would. I don't think my name helps my
case, you know, most peoplecan't pronounce IRA and alikhan
is just nobody really even.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (22:38):
That's funny. So let's talk about your
first job. Because when I wastalking to you about him, I know
you I didn't know a lot of thesethings about you the jobs that
you had what you did the amazingexperience that you gained. How
did you end up at your firstjob?
Saira Alikhan (22:57):
It was kind of by happenstance, you know, as a
young law student, I had dreamedof making, you know, the
$150,000 a year and I just knewthat was going to be me. And,
you know, a year rolled aroundand on campus interviewing
(23:20):
started. And you know, I gotsome really great interviews,
but I didn't get a lot of offersfrom those large firms that
attend those OCI events, andkind of dangle that carrot. I
ended up getting an offer fromthe city and I decided to take
(23:42):
that role in labor andemployment. And I didn't really
have any notions of being alabor and employment attorney
before, you know, I don't eventhink I had taken any real
classes and law schoolsurrounding that. You know, I
was actually really interestedin torts. And for some reason, I
(24:06):
don't know why I wanted to dopersonal injury. But because I
got this offer, and kind of itwas really only my only offer, I
decided to take it. And it endedup being really great. Because,
you know, government ischronically under resourced, and
(24:31):
I was able to get a lot ofexperience really quickly. I was
handling hearings. Right off thebat, I was handling a lot of
motions, things that a lot of mypeers that were probably at
those large firms were, youknow, not seeing it at their
experience level. And so as muchas I was saddened by the fact
(24:57):
that I wasn't making that 158Okay, significantly less, by the
way, I was getting rich inexperience, and, you know,
amassing administrative hearingsand trials under my belt and
dealing with some really cooland interesting fact patterns
(25:18):
of, you know, police disciplineor, you know, discrimination
claims. So that started to openmy eyes to the possibilities of
of continuing to be in laboremployment, and I wanted to do
that.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (25:36):
Okay. So labor and employment for the
city of Chicago, and why did youdecide to leave that position
and where to go after that.
Saira Alikhan (25:51):
I had worked there for a couple of years. And
like I said, got really greatexperience and my colleagues
were fantastic. I just felt likeI needed to be able to make a
little bit more money. And therewas still this sense of, you
know, stigma, I think,associated with government work.
(26:14):
And I wanted to be able to showthat I, you know, can rise above
that, and be part of the privatesector, I got an opportunity to
work at a small insurancedefense firm where I could
continue this employmentpractice, as well as work on
(26:36):
some personal injury cases. And,you know, as I mentioned, in law
school, I really was interestedin torts, negligence cases. So I
thought that would be great tocheckout. And I did that for a
little while and, and got somegood trial experience. Do you
(26:56):
think actually, I did get goodtrial experience there in state
court. Before that, you know, atthe city, I was I was working
mostly in administrativehearings. So now I'm in state
court handling cases, myselfstepping up for status hearings,
and arguing motions and whatnot.
So that was really exciting forme. And I worked at that
(27:17):
position for about less than ayear, it was tough for me,
because going from working forthe government to private
practice is night and day,because your billing hours now
you have a yearly, annualbillable requirement that at the
(27:42):
time, I didn't realize wassignificantly high. And we
required me to work 6070 hours aweek. And sometimes my hours
were getting cut, because theclient didn't want to pay for
those hours, because they feltlike it was taking me too long
(28:04):
to do certain things. So I wouldbe penalized as a result. So I
found that to be too difficultto maintain. Mm hmm.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (28:18):
Yeah, so let's talk a bit about so you
know, you've mentioned threepositions. And the first one,
you you work there two years,you amassed this wonderful skill
set, you had a lot of liberties,a lot of responsibility, you
were handling your own cases.
Because oftentimes, governmentis short, short staffed, they
(28:39):
don't have a ton of money. Sothey let you just go for it. So
that was great. And you enjoyedthat you enjoyed the
responsibility, you enjoy thework, the advocacy work, but it
didn't pay enough. So I feellike we're always kind of trying
to find balance between what welove what we're passionate
(29:02):
about, and what we think, youknow, we need to be able to
support ourselves and ourfamilies financially. Yeah,
short term and the long term.
But it sounds like you were alsothere was something else in the
mix. You mentioned the stigma,or a stigma around government
(29:23):
work. And so for me, this soundslike okay, external influence
external pressures that we haveto live up to in order to be
considered a success. And youearly on in your career, maybe a
coach or mentor could havehelped you tease some of that
(29:46):
out because I think that keepsus from following our passions
sometimes and what we love andputs us on somebody else's path
or trajectory, which It's nevergood. No, there's a lot of
tension on that path of whatwe're supposed to do, versus
(30:07):
what we love to do and what wewant to do. Exactly.
Saira Alikhan (30:12):
I love how you, you brought that up, because you
know, that's just been a commontheme throughout my career is
this kind of push pull tensionwith what I want to be doing and
what my passion is, and then bebeing able to take care of
myself and my family in a waythat I feel comfortable doing.
You know, there shouldn't haveto be that tension. But there
(30:34):
there is, for me, as I mentionedearlier, I really wanted to
advocate and help people. But Ifound myself getting positions
at companies or, you know,government roles, which were
defense. And so I wasn'tdefending the people that I want
it to be, I wasn't advocatingfor the people that I wanted to
(30:56):
be advocating for. I wasdefending kind of these
organizations, thesecorporations, which was an
opposite to why I wanted tobecome a lawyer. But those were
the roles that I was getting,those were the roles that were
paying. And, yeah, like, youbringing up the fact that it
(31:16):
would have been helpful to havea coach earlier on in my career
100%, I went straight throughfrom college to law school to
working, I had no real workingexperience outside of working
summers in college, or I wasyounger, you know. So I wasn't
really familiar with thepolitics or how things work in a
(31:39):
corporate or government setting.
And I'm sure a lot of things areflying over my head, because I
just didn't know to look out forthem.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (31:47):
Exactly.
Exactly. Yes. And it'sinteresting. I mean, the earlier
you get coaching, the better.
And I mean, like even at the athigh school, middle school, you
know what I mean? Yes? Arepeople like my children? And
(32:09):
children who are in your orbit,have the benefit of our
experience? Right, in corporateAmerica, like I can talk to my
daughters and my son, I can kindof gear or push them toward
certain positions andopportunities within a
corporate, you know, environmentand tell them no, you don't want
that one. Because that's too lowof a level for you. Right? It
(32:33):
took you too long to get towhere you really supposed to be.
So don't accept that. Yes. Whichkind of takes me to a point
where it's not a question in mynotes. About like, when you
don't quite understand thelandscape that you're stepping
into, you don't quite know whatit means to accept the position
(32:54):
at a level that is beneath yourskill set. What that really
means for you economically, noteven economically, just kind of
emotionally and morally. Onceyou get there. And you realize,
wait a minute, like I'm i Why ismy level this right? Next
person's level is a level aboveme. Yes. Can you talk a little
(33:20):
bit about that? Just in general?
Yes,
Saira Alikhan (33:24):
I mean, again, these are these are things, as
you mentioned, that I would haveloved to know, when I was
younger, and I went in blind. SoI accepted levels that were kind
of given to me, I did try tonegotiate, you know, as I
learned, to negotiate for higherlevels, but I think for me, the
(33:46):
argument that was mostly madewas, I was not as experienced,
you know, in my younger years,and I was typically trying a new
area of the law. And for me, Iliked being able to learn
different areas of the law, itwas interesting for me to
(34:09):
continue to learn about legalareas and kind of form a full
picture of how things work andinterlock. And that just
satiated my curiosity I reallylike to learn and I guess I'm
kind of a legal nerd. But Ithought that that would really
(34:29):
also just help my skill set andup level me in a way that people
who are specializing in one areaof the law wouldn't really be
able to match. Having somebodylike me with knowledge of
different areas of the law, Ican problem solve quicker and
differently. And somebody that'sonly focused on one specific
(34:53):
area, but to your point, youknow, feeling as though you're
underleveled when you You haveall of these other skills that
maybe aren't being considered asvaluable for whatever reason,
you know, there's somesubjective reason that they
don't find XYZ to be valuable.
It is, you know, it isdisappointing and totality, it
(35:15):
has an effect on your pay has aneffect on you emotionally, it
has an effect on youradvancement. And I think being
able to anticipate that andnotice and see kind of those
patterns or those red flags,right would have been very
(35:36):
valuable for me as a youngerattorney. And I'm still doing
that to this day, you know,there's a lot of corporate speak
that happens, people don't fullyunderstand some of the roles
that they take on despite theirbest efforts, you could ask as
many questions as possible tokind of dig deep, but, you know,
(35:57):
you may not be gettingtransparent answers. And so
it's, it's a dance that is, isvery important to understand
very early on. Right?
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (36:11):
Yes. And to network up so that you create
as many alliances with peoplewho are in the positions of
power. Yeah, within Corp in thecorporate structure, whether
it's your corporation that youwork in, or another one, so that
they can be your guide, throughthrough that jungle.
Saira Alikhan (36:33):
Exactly, exactly.
It's, it's tricky. Companieswant to save money. And they can
do that by either leveling you,at a certain level or offering
you XYZ amount. So it'simportant to know your worth and
really fight for that.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (36:52):
Yep, definitely important to know
your worth important tounderstand the value of your
skill set, and kind of packageand market and brand yourself in
a way where you have to maybeteach the the entity hiring you
or looking at your resume, whyyour unique skill set
(37:15):
combination is valuable, and ownthat and then don't accept
anything less right than whatyou know you deserve because it
exists it exist, it may not bein the place that you're
looking, you might need to turnyour head to the right. And you
might need to kind of plug intoa sponsors network or you know,
(37:38):
coaches network, but it exists.
So don't feel like you have totake take the lower level or you
have to take this position overhere. You don't have to accept
the explanation that you don'thave these skills, or you don't
have this or this is in technow. And you got two years of
(38:01):
tech only know, you know, I mayhave two years of tech, but I've
got 10 years of investing, whichis going to make me a more
valuable and impactful employee.
And don't pretend like you don'tknow that. Yeah, talking to per
hiring and to don't pretend likeyou don't know that, like you're
(38:23):
not getting the benefit of allof this. Yeah, yes.
Saira Alikhan (38:27):
Yes. Very excellent points.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (38:30):
Okay, so you. So where are we made it to
three positions? Where did yougo next?
Saira Alikhan (38:41):
I ended up going to a large firm, after a brief
stint at this Pei firm, I wentto a large firm. And this goes
back to how you want to be seen.
So in law school, everybody'sdream was to work for the large
(39:02):
firm to make that excellent payto get those great benefits. And
I had an opportunity to do that,and employ employment once
again. So I took it. And itdidn't make me as happy as I
thought it would have. Yes, Iwas getting more pay. And I was
(39:25):
able to live more comfortablythan I had been before. But I
was working extremely longhours. And I felt like I was
just put in this back room,proverbial neck room and
reviewing docs for hours andhours on end. Where before I was
(39:46):
going to court every day, I washandling depositions on my own.
I was creating litigationstrategy for the cases that I
was handling As I was answeringdiscovery higher I wanted to.
And I felt like although I hadprogressed in my economic
stature, I was now regressing inmy legal skill. area, because I
(40:12):
was just reviewing documentsafter documents for discovery
for these employment cases. So,you know, I worked for a couple
of years at this large firm andgot that experience. And I was
provided a job opening for astate government role by a
(40:41):
friend of mine. And they said,hey, you know, they're hiring.
And I was like, I don't know,he, you know, it's gonna be a
huge pay cut. You know, I feellike I'm regressing. I had left
a government role that I hadinitially my first job out of
(41:01):
law school, and I just don'tknow if this is going to
progress my career in a way thatI want. But I decided to apply
for it any any way. It wasaround 2008, things were really
shaky at large law firms withthe crash and the economy, just
not really doing that well. So Ithought I'd just explore. And I
(41:26):
ended up passing all theinterviews and getting an offer,
which was significantly lessthan I was currently making. But
I made the decision to go aheadand go for it. Because I knew I
was going to get the things thatI was craving, I was going to be
(41:51):
in court every day I was goingto be able to do trials. You
know, if you haven't guessed, Iwas a litigator for the first
half of my career. So that waswhat I really enjoyed doing, not
sitting in a room, reviewingdocuments. So despite there
being a major pay cut, I feltlike I would go with the passion
and take this role. And it wasbilled as an employment law
(42:17):
role. And when I took it, I wasnot put in The Employment Law
Group. I was put in anothergroup that mainly did civil
rights litigation for prisoners.
And I was didn't
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (42:37):
switch there will be a little bit of
that experience.
Saira Alikhan (42:42):
Yeah. And I was a little bit concerned. Because I
was like, Well, what, what isthis? And they were like, well,
you'll be able to switch to theEmployment Law Group at some
point, blah, blah, blah. Sookay, I started doing it. And
yeah, I'm in federal court,boom, day one, and I'm in
(43:06):
federal court every single day,and doing a lot of motion
practice and back in where Iwant to be. And now at a at a
level that tie. Federal Court ismuch different than state court,
and you have to be veryprepared. Always, your motion
writing has to be very onpoint.
Your oral arguments have to bevery eloquent. And, you know, I
(43:28):
was doing that every single day.
And I amassed a lot ofexperience working for the state
government for four years. And Ihandled three federal trials and
was the lead on them and one,every single one. So it was a
(43:49):
really great move for me to takethat pay cut, because I got a
lot of experience that becomebecame very valuable to me, and
for me in my next career steps.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (44:08):
Yeah, I think that's major that you
realized, I'm getting paid a lotof money, but I'm miserable. And
I'd rather do something I'mpassionate about where I
actually feel like I'm growingas a human X is expanding as a
person in addition to building askill set that I want and took
(44:32):
the lower pay, cut and enjoyedvariances by the bait and
switch.
Saira Alikhan (44:38):
Yeah, there were a couple of times that I didn't
have enough money to pay billsand they actually the state
didn't have enough money to paymy bill sometimes. But it was
really the camaraderie I hadwith colleagues there that kept
me going. We were all very closeand willing to help each other
out and we were all the stewardsof our own cases. So we were all
(45:01):
experts in our various areas andmore treated like professionals
as such.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (45:08):
Okay, so we got to fast forward to tech,
because yeah, tech now. So howdid you make the transition from
being a litigator primarily forgovernment to being a tech,
virtual transactional attorney.
For fortune 500 company,
Saira Alikhan (45:32):
I was able to use all of that great child's skill
and litigation knowledge that Ipicked up in the government. And
I was recruited to a boutiqueintellectual property firm, and
handled their trademarklitigation cases as well as
commercial litigation. And onceI understood and learned about
(46:01):
IP, that became the key tounlocking the next steps in my
career and tech. So obviously, Ihad never done tech before in my
career, I was doing mostly laborand employment, some PII, some
civil rights. You know, at thatpoint in time, in my career, I
(46:23):
had never really thought abouttech, I didn't have a technical
background, I didn't have ascience background. You know, I
didn't really take any IPcourses in school. It just
didn't occur to me to besomething that I could do. And I
always felt kind of barred fromit. You know, I didn't know if I
had to be a patent attorney andtake the past. And that was all
(46:44):
up to me. I was like, No way amI doing? No, I don't even
understand what they're talkingabout. But this stint at this
boutique IP firm really gave methat confidence and knowledge
that I was adaptable andflexible and can learn quickly,
regardless of the area of lawthat I was in. So I was able to
(47:07):
learn a lot, and kind of parlaythat into a skill set suitable
for Tech, I was able to join atop consulting firm as a
commercial counsel, utilizing myskill set and IP litigation, and
(47:29):
my knowledge of litigation ingeneral. So I had never really
done commercial contracting workbefore, though, there was kind
of a steep learning curve. Butthe draw that I was able to make
was my experience in litigationwill help me to be a better
(47:49):
drafter. I know what ends upgoing to litigation, I
understand how it will play out,I can anticipate these issues
and the drafting, versus thekind of being dealt with at a
litigation stage. And that was areally persuasive argument for
this company. And they hired meon despite me not really having
(48:13):
that background and commercialcontracting, I was able to adapt
and flex pretty quickly andlearn how to do it with some
help from great colleagues suchas yourself. Yes. Some other
wonderful folks at CES,
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (48:28):
you had somebody who had worked with you
early on in your governmentlitigation career, to vouch for
you. So basically, a bit of asponsor.
Saira Alikhan (48:39):
Yes, I had a great sponsor. I had a really
great friend and colleague, thatalso worked there that
recommended me. You know, like Imentioned, a lot of us at the
state legal team, we're close.
And so she had moved on to thisconsulting firm and knew that I
(49:03):
was kind of looking to make acareer jump because I really did
need to make more money. And sherecommended me and that
sponsorship really helped meout, you know, as well as my,
the experience that I wasbringing to that role.
Rhonda Coleman Wandel (49:23):
Okay, wonderful. So we have covered a
lot of ground today. You havetaken us through each of your
career trajectory. We'veexplored each of the stops on
that path. Looked at thetransferable skills that have
gone and fed into the next roleand you're continuing to grow
(49:46):
and expand which I love. Youknow, you're not you're not kind
of stopping saying well, this isthis I'm just gonna stop here.
And, you know, this is this isthe best it's gonna be for me
you continue to seek and lookfor I look for what is you're
looking for balance between whatit is you love to do. And you
(50:09):
know the economic package thatyou need to be able to be
comfortable with. I've lovedI've loved hearing about your
journey, what pivot pearls ofwisdom would you leave our
listeners with today?
Saira Alikhan (50:27):
We've hit a lot of them, you know, there's been
so many gems and this already.
But the main points are tobasically always be adaptable,
always be flexible, be open todifferent experiences. For me,
if I had plotted or charted mycareer progression, coming out
(50:48):
of law school, it would not havelooked like this. And I took
leaps of faith, and I did thingsthat, you know, I maybe would
not have done, but they all ledme to a new opportunity, a
better opportunity, and gave memore tools for my arsenal and
(51:09):
skill set. And I think that'shuge, just being open. And, you
know, the themes that we talkedabout earlier, try to get that
network, build that network,really keep it up, nurture that
network, find sponsorship, it'sreally important to have that.
(51:31):
If you don't, you're justswimming in a pool of real
sharks, it's difficult reallyadvance and especially in a big
city with a very large legalcommunity, it can start to get
small once you get to knowfolks. And you'll get to know
(51:51):
the players. And when you get arelationship with them, those
people will think about you andyou'll be top of mind for for
various opportunities. That'swhat got me this role that I
have currently at Google is, youknow, somebody that I worked
with, at the consulting firmmoved over to Google and thought
(52:15):
about me as being somebody thatwould be a good fit for the role
that I'm currently in now. And Iwould have never thought that I
would be working at Google. Thatis not something that I would
have charted on my career path.
I didn't even think it wassomething that I could achieve.
And it has been a huge milestonefor me, because not many people
(52:37):
can say that they work atGoogle, the interview process
is, is pretty, pretty difficult.
So you know, it's it's somethingthat I wear with a badge of
honor.
Rhonda Coleman Wande (52:51):
Wonderful, great. I can completely relate
to all of that. Yep, I rememberthat. I did not think that I
would ever have a career in Techbecause I didn't have that
patent background. I didn't havethe technical undergraduate
degree that I, I thought youneeded this is just kind of
going off of just not maybe ifmy network had been bigger, or
(53:17):
different. Maybe I would haveunderstood the role of a
commercial lawyer in anycorporation and how that skill
set transfers across industries.
And when our recruiter from atech company reached out to me
and they were like, Oh my God,we love your commercial skill
set. And I was like my wife. Shesays, oh, yeah, we need we need
a lawyer to draft complexcommercial agreements. And it
(53:40):
was like Facebook or something.
It's not Facebook anymore, butit was Facebook. And I was just
like, Whoa, I didn't realizethat my skill set fit within
tech. And then I started to kindof look so yes, I can relate to
all of that. Well, thank you somuch. Saira, this has been
wonderful, excited for people tolisten to this episode. And
(54:07):
can't wait to get feedback.
Saira Alikhan (54:08):
Thank you so much, Rhonda. It was really
great talking to you today.
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