Ted Lasso Meets March Madness (with Eric Garcia)

Welcome to the Crown & Anchor, Greyhounds! In this episode Christian and Brett have a conversation about Ted Lasso and college basketball with author and journalist Eric Garcia!

Eric Garcia is a Washington, D.C.-based journalist focused on politics and policy and is currently the senior Washington correspondent for The Independent. (Yes, that Independent.) He also works as a columnist for MSNBC and makes regular appearances on radio and television. Previously, Eric has held positions at The Washington Post, The Hill, Roll Call, National Journal and MarketWatch.

Eric is also the author of a book titled We're Not Broken: Changing the Autism Conversation, which was released back in August 2021. In the book, Eric weaves his own story together with that of other autistic individuals to discuss the social and policy gaps that exist in supporting those on the spectrum and to shed light on what it’s like to be autistic in America.

In addition to his work in political reporting and writing, Eric is a huge fan of Ted Lasso and UNC basketball - which is how we connected with him on Twitter. So, we invited him on to chat about college basketball and Ted Lasso - particularly the parallels between Ted’s character and the real-life, iconic men’s college basketball coaches Dean Smith and Roy Williams.

More extensive show notes can be found on our website: http://www.tedlassopod.com/eric-garcia-march-madness-ted-lasso

Richmond Til We Die is an episode-by-episode conversation about the Apple TV+ show Ted Lasso, where we explore the characters, their relationships to each other, and how they're able to make us laugh until we can hardly breathe one moment and then feel with the deepest parts of our hearts the next. When you're here, you're a greyhound.

Episode Transcript

(00:12):
Welcome to the Crown and Anchor Greyhounds. This is Richmond Till We Die,
a conversation about the Apple TV Plusshow ted Lasso, where we explore the
characters, their relationships to each other, and how they're able to make us
laugh until we can hardly breathe onemoment and then feel with the deepest parts
of our hearts the next. I'mChristian and I'm waiving the week like nobody's

(00:35):
business. I'm Brett and my bracketsare already busted, but I am so
excited to introduce our guests today.Eric Garcia. Eric Garcia is a Washington,
DC based journalist focused on politics andpolicy, and is currently the senior
Washington correspondent for a little outlet youmay have heard of called The Independent.

(00:55):
Yes, that the Independent. Healso works as a columnist for MSNBC and
makes regular appearances on radio and television. Previously, Eric has held positions at
The Washington Post, The Hill,Roll Call, National Journal, and market
Watch. Eric is also the authorof a book titled We're Not Broken,
Changing the Autism Conversation. It wasreleased back in August twenty twenty one.

(01:19):
In the book, Eric weaves hisown story together with that of other autistic
individuals, to discuss the social andpolicy gaps that exist in supporting those on
the spectrum, and to shed lighton what it's like to be autistic in
America. In addition to his workin political reporting and writing, Eric is
a huge fan of Ted Lasso andUniversity of North Carolina basketball, which is

(01:40):
how we connected with him on Twitter. So we invited him on the show
to chat about college basketball and TedLasso, particularly the parallels between Ted's character
and the real life iconic men's collegebasketball coaches Dean Smith and Roy Williams.
So Greyhounds please join us as wewelcome Eric Garcia to the podcast. Asked,

(02:00):
we're so glad you're here. Eric, Hey, thank you very much.
So let's jump in first with thething that brought us all together,
Ted Lasso. You're a fan ofthe show. Yeah, I did you
decide to start watching Ted Lasso?And what hooked you in and kept you
there? I think? I mean, I think everybody already started watching it
doing the pandemic. I mean,but like one of my really good friends
said, I just kept on tweetingabout Ted Lasso and then like I think

(02:22):
I was just like I was lookingfor a shot. I just finished writing
my book and I had some freetime, and I was just like,
I need, I need a showto watch. Then, like everybody told
me, watched ted Lasso, watchedted Lasso, watched ted Lasso. So
I watched the first season in liketwenty twenty one, like spring of twenty
twenty one, and I just gothooked. I think it was just the

(02:44):
writing was really great. It wasfunny, it was it was it was
also very lighthearted. I remember you. I mean this was during the depths
of the pandemic, and you knowyou. I think people just wanted uh
some you know, comfort food television. Um, I remember some. But
he's saying that, like food televisionreally took off after nine to eleven.
Like people really just wants whenever there'ssomething terrible in the world, people just

(03:07):
wants something really comforting. And Ithink that was what ted Lasso was for
a lot of people. Yeah,we started the pandemic with Tiger King and
then we ended less. So Yeah, in addition to being done with your
book and having more time because ofthat, one of the things that stopped
early in the pandemic for a while, we're sporting events, and one of

(03:27):
our sporting events to get knocked offthe calendar were the NCAA basketball conference tournaments
and an NCAA basketball tournament. You'rea big fan, and so we did
want to bring you on to talkabout that and some of the connections with
the show a bit. So yourexpertise in fandom is with the University of
North Carolina tar Heels. Can youpaint a picture for people who are not

(03:51):
college basketball fans what it's like tobe a basketball fan of North Carolina in
general ACC basketball, the conference thereinand then specifically Tobacco Road, that area
of North Carolina the UNC is locatedin. Yeah, I mean, so
I should say I was a transferstudent to the university with Carolina. I
grew up in California, but Iwas born in Chicago. And the thing

(04:15):
that was said, so I wasa baby when the bulls were you know,
we're taking off. Like actually,there's a photo of the like my
dad's business was doing like a charitygolf tournament or something like that, and
like there's a picture of me withMichael Jordan, like when I was like
nine months and Charles Berkeley actually hiton my mom that night in front of

(04:35):
my dad. I feel like,I feel like Chuck is one of the
only people who can get away withdoing that. But so there was Dad.
But then I transferred to school becauseI went to community college first,
and then I transferred the University ofNorth Carolina. And initially I didn't put
two in to together and realize thatthat was where Michael went to school.
But like I realized that afterward andI was like, oh, yeah,
Tar Hills and like, so likeI'm a Yankee, you know more Chicago.

(05:00):
I went to call a group inCalifornia. But you kind of don't.
You kind of get indoctrinated early onwhen it comes to North Carolina basketball.
You learn it was funny. It'sfunny because weirdly enough, when I
was at CHAT, when I wasin Chapel Hill, when I was a
student, Yeah, people are like, yeah, it's cool. Then Michael

(05:20):
went here, but you hear moreabout Dean Smith, hear more about Roy
Williams and Bill Guthridge, and youhear very much about that kind of Caroline
away and you learn, of course, to hate Duke and you learned that
like nobody really cares about NC stateAnd you learn and then you know that
whole tobacco road. Uh you know, as my old professor like said,

(05:44):
said, like the joke was,you know, of course you know the
tobacco road because tobacco crops are arewere planted there for a long time.
Even though tobacco is not as bigas it used to be, we get
most of our some of the countriesnow, it's that those rivalries still exist.
It's very much the way that I'vealways seen that people always say it
is that like particularly in North Carolina. I'm speaking from North Carolina and Virginia

(06:05):
here because that's where the ACC forthe longest time was before it expanded to
like Florida and now like you know, Mada's Notre Dame as part of the
sec which I don't understand, butlike to me, the ACC in particularly
in North Carolina, it's like it'slike the tar heels that those are like
the blue bloods of the universe ofthe state of North Carolina. These are
the people who founded the state.Like I remember, I would meet people

(06:27):
who like their families go back tothe founding of the state when I would
go when I would when I wasat school, and then like you had
NC State and those were working classkids, those were farm kids. Those
were kids were who or who wouldgrow up to Veginia be veterinarians or engineers
or or farmers in a world.And then you have um you have way
Forest University, which is it wasfounded by you know, missionaries, and

(06:54):
it's very very provincial. And thenall out of nowhere you have Duke,
which is very much I'm trying tobe as objective about Duke as possible,
but it's very much aspired to befor a long time, you know,
an Ivy League school in the South. But then even though I'd argue Vanderbilt

(07:15):
is more of an Ivy League inthe South than Duke is, like,
you know, really in a lotof ways, it was coach k and
it was Miski. As much asI don't liked in then it as much
as I hate to give the devilwho's d no pun intended. He only
needed a school that you wanted togo to. So and then of course
up top you got University of Virginia, which was the second public university founded

(07:40):
in the in the in the inthe country. Uh, you know,
UNC was of course the first,but it depending on if you ask people
from William and mary there's a disputethere. But but but so very much
it is. It's very at leastwhat I how I viewed the ACC is
that it was very insular and veryand I was going to school when this
was started a change, like Marylandleft the ACC when I was when I

(08:01):
was a student, It's this veryinsular kind of environment. It's like there's
this region from like Maryland to Virginiaand North Carolina to part of South Carolina
that just like encompasses the ACC tome, even though there are other other
schools like Florida State. So it'sthis very insular community. And so coming

(08:22):
in as a Yankee from somebody whodidn't really focus on on college sports,
it was just a fascinating culture.And like I remember in twenty sixteen,
again you know you talked about politics. I remember in twenty sixteen when North
Carolina banned the bathroom band bathroom billband, right, if you remember,
one of the things that happened wasthe ACC pulled out in the NCAA pulled

(08:45):
out in North Carolina. And Iremember telling my friends. I was living
in Washington, DC at the time, I was working in a newspaper.
I said Roy Cooper, the Democratwho was wonning for governor has just won
the election. I was like,because people cut I cut class to watch
basketball, you know when I'm workingnowadays, like I'll have a monitor on
to watch ACC basketball. It isvery much a religion. And who you

(09:07):
pick as your team, even ifyou don't go to that school very much,
I think says something about you asa person. I made the analogy
for people who don't understand soccer andother countries that the closest analogs are SEC
football in ACC basketball because it's theidentity that people take on and in the
ACC, especially when we talk abouttobacco road. Also the proximity. You

(09:31):
have the academic triangle of schools.How I was almost going to say teams,
but it really is schools. Youhave UNC, and you have Duke,
and you have I think is NCCA. Yeah yeah, And so there
are only none of them are morethan twenty five miles away from each other.
And then you also have Wake Forestthere in close proximity. And so

(09:52):
as you can imagine not only thebig feelings that arise, but then also
the proximity makes things hot. They'dlike to attend a North Carolina basketball game
when they play one of their rivals. Oh, I mean it is.
I mean I literally put it thisway. I lived in Washington. D
CEO's an intern in Washington. Uh, right after they announced the killing of

(10:13):
Osavin Laden and like, uh,you know, there are people all in
front of the White House celebrated forsome reason. Somebody brought a big US
flag, like and people just startedcelebrating. And I've been in North Carolina
when UNC beats Duke, and I'vebeen in Chapel Hill. Hands down,
it's a bigger frenzy. In ChapelHill. There's a strength. There's a

(10:35):
drag called Franklin Street, Like everycollege town has that drag. People like
couches on fire, like jerseys onfire. You see people jumping in out
of trees. You see people forsome reason somebody like you'll see people blowing
volas. You know, it's justit is absolute chaos in Mayhem. And
it's one of those things where it'sthis kind of collective frenzy. And it's

(11:01):
funny because like I spent a lotof time also in my day job covering
Trump rallies, and I've what I'vetold people and when I talked to students
is I'm like, it's very similar. It's this herd mentality, it's this
tribal mentality, and I think thatit's something very different from even pro sports,
you know, in America, atleast because pro sports in America it's

(11:24):
tied very much the owners and thewhims and you know, and it's where
you know, people change or ifthey live wherever. But like there is
very much this identity, at leastwhen I would go to watch Duke games,
when I watch Une played Duke,it was very much this idea of
North Carolina beats a lot of thesekids from out of of course I'm being
a hypocrite because I didn't grow upin North Carolina, but it's like a

(11:46):
lot of kids from Duke come fromConnecticut and New Jersey and New York and
and all these other places. Likelike we all used I used to choke
all the time. It's like ifyou didn't get into Harvard, Yale or
Princeton, Duke was your safety school. So you know, so it's like
we beat all of those kids fromNew Jersey and kids from New York and

(12:07):
all that, and like this isour state. This is North Carolina.
There is this very kind of regionalstate pride. And again I'm being a
hypocrite because I grew up in California, but like I did, it was
through not just going to school atthe University of North Carolina, but watching
North Carolina basketball games that I felta really deep affinity to the state in

(12:28):
North Carolina. And it's why nowadayswhen I like, I feel more at
home, you know, from anywhen I'm in any part of the state
in North Carolina, whether I'm inWilmington or what's the Salem or Durham or
Chapel Hill or anywhere, or youknow, then I do oftentimes then when
I'm more than when I'm in California. You mentioned in your book how when
you left Chapel Hill when you graduated, and we're moving on kind of what

(12:52):
the next phase of your life,that it really felt like for the first
time you were leaving like a placethat felt like home. I attended to
Wake for a short amount of time, and having lived in Winston, like
there very much is that like affinityand that kind of Southern hospitality culture that
really like, even as someone whogrew up in the South, but a
different part of the South, Bigtwelve country, like it is, like
the culture there is just so strongwhen it comes to these college sports because

(13:16):
they are so close together. AndWake actually used to be even closer to
all those schools than it is now. It moved from actual Wake Forest,
which is closer to Durham and Raleigh. Yeah, tobacco money brought it further
east. So yeah, yeah,I'm tobacco money. Tobacco money. And
that's the other thing I think that'simportant to recognize. It's just like,
if we could talk about economics alittle bit, is that because it was
Carolina was a port state, andbecause it didn't have a large cotton it

(13:39):
didn't have a large cotton industry theway that even Virginia did, or even
South Carolina or Georgia did, tobaccojust became something. And then all those
places are in close proxity just becauseof like where you could grow stuff.
Right, So we've talked about someschools. We talked about only one player
so far, which is Michael Jordan. We've talked about, However, you've

(14:00):
mentioned a lot of coaches and oneof the reasons we wanted to have you
on is because Roy Williams, whowas an assistant coach and then later a
head coach at North Carolina. Wasalso a coach for a while at the
University of Kansas, when Jason Saidakiswas growing up and was a big fan.
And people have seen a lot ofsimilarities between Roy Williams and Ted Lasso.

(14:22):
But first I want to go backa step to Roy's mentor coach,
which was Dean Smith. And there'sa lot of talk about coach John Wooden,
famed UCLA coach, and Ted Lasso, but I also see some Dean
Smith characteristics and philosophies pop up fromtime to time. What can you how
can you how would you describe maybethe character and the coaching and the success

(14:46):
of Dean Smith, so the waythat like, I because like it's funny
you mentioned that, because it's likevery much again we didn't talk about like
like you didn't hear much about MichaelGeorgian, And even when you talked about
players, you would hear more aboutpeople like Phil Ford. You'd hear more
about James Worthy as much as youhear about Michael at North Carolina. But
more than anything, Dean Smith isvery much kind of the patron saint just

(15:09):
because he was seen as this guywho quote unquote did it right. One
of the things that was really wellknown is he never cursed Craig. But
if I'm wrong, Like the onlytime year Ted Lasso curse is in the
series season one finale where he says, when the whole fucking thing right?
And it's and that's like and thenyou're kind of like, oh wait,
because there's a lot of cursing andTed Lasso. Of course you have Roy

(15:31):
Canny, you have Kaylee, youever right, you know, but you
have Rebecca. And then so whenyou hear you know, Ted Ted saying
you know, when the whole fuckingthing, You're like, oh, I
heard that from him. It's abit of a shock the first time you
hear it, for sure. Yeah, it's it's like it's like hearing your
minister a curse. But also likethere was always this feeling that again,

(15:52):
like one of the things that itwas funny. I remember Kenny the Jet
Smith, you know, you knowwho of course is on and at the
NBA he did a beautiful, beautifuleulogy. You should go back and watch
it. In twenty fifteen, EverdeanSmith died where he said like Dean never
talked about winning, and that's verysimilar to Ted Lasso. He just he
cared a lot about making these playersmen, making these boys men. I

(16:18):
mean, there's that famous saying withDean Smith that he that he was the
only person who could keep Michael Jordanunder twenty in the game, and that
is very true because it was verymuch teamwork working together. But then there
was also the other aspect with DeanSmith, which was that he was an
outspoken civil rights advocate and and youhave to remember, being a white coach

(16:41):
in the South, particularly Interview Universitywas demos built by enslaved people. That
was a very big deal. Sothere's a legendary story of he brought it
one of his players to sit downand met with him at the Southern Pines
restaurant in Chapel Hill. It basicallyled to the desigregation of the university.
And that I think more than anykind of like winning, I think that

(17:06):
that's all that that mindset has alwayskind of been in the Zeitgei set.
Not only is Dean Smith, youknow this, this this legendary coach,
but he's also this upstanding, uprightguy, and on top of that,
he's a civil rights advocate, andhe was seen as a guy who quote
unquote did things right, which isto say that almost all of the students
went back and graduated or graduated orstayed four years. That kind of image

(17:32):
is a little out dad because therewas that report. Of course, there
was the there was an academic scandalunc and it's found that the beginnings of
that cheating scandal began under Dean Smith. And this was before the television contracts
became a big part of the universities, sponsorships and all of the things that
we now associate with college sports.So it's a little fracture, but that

(17:56):
image still exists, and this thisidea of like the Carol line of way
still exists in especially in Chapel lYeah, the swearing part cracks me up.
Dean Smith's players and the coaches thatcame after him under his tree tend
to be like Dean Smith quote unquotedisciples. And so the current coach,
Hubert Davis, he's known as notswearing. Roy Smith was known as not

(18:18):
swearing, except there was one timewhen Smith in his last game coaching Kansas
or yeah, sorry, Roy Williamslast game coaching Kansas, they lose the
national championship by three points to Syracusein two thousand and three, and he's
coming off the court and the reporterasked him about rumors that he might be

(18:38):
the next coach at North Carolina andhe says, in his kind of like
southern Kansas drawl, I don't givea shit about North Carolina right now.
And it was just great CBS NationalTelevision, a very ted Lasso at the
end of season one moment. Yeahit was because like, yeah, I
think the whole thing that it waswas that in the background of that is

(19:00):
in two thousand, after Bill guthRichard retired, Bill Gunther, who was
also one of the assistant coaches atun See, Dean and Bill Guthler sh
had tried to bring Roy back becausehe'd been he'd been in Kansas and the
other thing about Roy and we couldget a little more into this. Roy
took them to Final four, toJayhawks, to final fours, He took

(19:21):
them to lead conferences, national,you know, regular season championships, but
he could never get to the title. He can never get them to the
Promised Land. And then basically therewas that moment. It was after Syracuse,
after the loss at Syracuse and peoplejust would have been asking because North
Carolina had just evolved into a dumpsterfire under Matt Doherty, who was part

(19:41):
of that legendary team that with MichaelJordan and Sam Perkins, James Worthy and
all them. And then like basicallythe reporters like, you know, everybody's
asking about North Carolina and he's like, look, and Roy being from I
think the other reason why he soRoy Williams was so beloved, at least
in North Carolina was because he's fromBlack Mountain, North Carolina, which is

(20:02):
very rural, and as a result, you know, they're just filling up.
He's from here, he's one ofus. But but you know he's
just like, as a journalists,like, I understand you got to ask
that question, but right now it'snot very nice, and like you can
tell he's very frustrated, and thenhe just kind of just says, I
could give a shit about North Carolina. I got I got ten kids in
there that I love, and itwas and then of course he's kind of

(20:22):
you know, that was a verymuch an Then, of course, a
few days later, Roy announces thathe that he's going to North Carolina,
and then of course. In twothousand and five, they win the championship
and Roy's first championship. Do yousee any other similarities between Roy Williams and
Ted Lasso that stand out to youfrom the North Carolina perspective? We can

(20:45):
see them here from the Kansas side, but like, what do you see
from year end of the spectrum?Yeah, I mean, I think what
I see is at Roy very much. You know, he does care about
his kids very much as people allso, you know a lot. One
of the things that always frustrated fanslike myself is that Roy Williams never called
the time out, and it wasjust endlessly frustrating. There were probably a

(21:08):
few games where he threw, butthen there were plenty more where he just
let the players play and that kindof I guess you could say that kind
of confidence in your players. Onone end, it's frustrating, he's just
like, come on, you don'twant to ruin the onement and call a
time out. But on the otherend, he trusted his players enough.
During that time, he had peoplelike Tyler Hans Burrow and Danny Greene,

(21:29):
It's Sean May and some of themwent on to become assistant coaches for him
very much trusting in his players andtrusting in their skills. I think that's
a very ted Lasset thing in thatyou imbue your players and you imbue your
team around you with the confidence andthe belief that they could do things for
themselves. I think I think againthat that's something that you saw you see

(21:52):
Ted do throughout the season, ishe kind of lets Nate the great do
things, you know, in thesame way he very much Roy very much
could see. He very much triedto set up Hubert for success. And
like, I just want to ifI can defend Hubert right now, because
I know he's going to be gettingunder a lot of fire right now,
if I could kind of talk myshot right now is that Hubert, Yeah,

(22:15):
I get that, like he's sogreat, but like hey, people
who are talking about him getting firedright now are talking out of their boss
because he took them to the finalslast year. B I think the other
thing is that the kids got outthere a lot of pressure on top of
that, this isn't this is stillRoy's recruited class, so you know,
these are kids that Roy recruited.These are not kids that he recruited.

(22:37):
So there was always going to bea natural gap. And then on top
of that, last year was sucha fluke because it was just like toward
the end because I went to gowatch a game in Philadelphia where Cable of
kind of flipped on the switch andjust like went hard. But but but
all those so I think that sosorry, I just had to defend Hubert.
And also and I think it isimportant to have a blackhoat coaching black

(23:00):
kids. But but anyway, that'sthat's my tangent. But yeah, I
think that there is some similarities,respect for the players, respect for the
process, recognizing that it's more aboutbuilding a team and building a long a
longer lasting operation. I think thatthe difference. I think that Roy,
very much like Dan Smith, washaving trouble adapting to the new era of

(23:21):
college basketball where you have your oneand duns, you have kids, you
just want to go straight to theNBA. UM And I agree, you
know, I have a lot ofcriticisms of college sports. I think it's
in a lot of ways it's ascam. But I think that Roy was
still married to that old idea thatDean Smith taught him, Like you build
a longer lasting operation. You builtyou built this cohesive unit, and that

(23:41):
leads you to the promise, andthat leads you to win. Not thinking
about winning gets you to winning.And I think that's very And then also
you know, just the Roy verymuch. Obviously he would get frustrated at
times, and you know he wouldkind of rip off his jacket. But
but but but also just kind ofthat sunny disposition and believing the best.

(24:02):
What is the perception overall of basketballfans in North Carolina of the University of
Kansas basketball program, considering their sharedhistory? And I understand at this point
in history too, it might bea little bit raw because in the twenty
twenty two NCUBAA Tournament, Jesus cameback from a huge deficit to beat North
Carolina by three. But overall,what's the perception of University of Kansas basketball

(24:27):
from a North Carolina perspective? Yeah, I mean I think that So again,
this is this is this goes backto the Roy Williams lawris and like
shortly after Roy Williams the first time, you know, his first season back
in North Carolina, after North Carolinawas knocked out. If you remember,
Roy showed up to a Kansas gamewith like a with a Jayhawk sweaters and

(24:47):
that was scene is like really badform that was seen, Like, dude,
you're at North Carolina. Now.I think that in a way,
and then a lot of people wouldn'twant to admit this. I think that
there's a little bit of back andforth because on one and I think Kansas
recognized because on one end, becauseDean Smith also, you know, passed
roots in Kansas in the fall Gallantradition. So I think Kansas lives rent

(25:10):
free in our head. I rememberin twenty seventeen when North Carolina had his
championship run, when Kansas lost toOregon. Was it yea in Kansas City?
Yeah, in Kansas City. Iremember hoping to God that Oregon would
beat Kansas because I just did notwant North Carolina to play Kansas because I
was so afraid because like, Idon't think North Carolina has beaten Kansas since

(25:30):
Roy has come to North Carolina.So there's very much this feeling of from
an outsider's perspective, I think thatthere's always this feeling for Kansas that Roy
loves Kansas more than he loves NorthCarolina, because he says he loves both.
Yea, you know, so youknow last year in the final was
called the Roy Williams Invitational, andcorrect me if I'm wrong. In two

(25:53):
in the nineteen nineties, in thefinal four, Roy's first final four,
when he when they after because theywere banned their first right, Roy actually
did Dean Smith and Dan Smith wasejected and it really kind of like it
was really kind of hurt like eventhough he won and just seemed got to

(26:15):
go to the finals, it reallykind of weighed on him to see his
mentor this guy who's like his fatherbe ejected just like for this kind of
conflagration. I've always viewed the relationshipbetween Kansas fans and North Carolina fans as
kind of a quote unquote special relationshiplike that between England and the United States,
where I think, and we've seenthis in the last twenty years in

(26:37):
World Cups when the United States playsEngland and both fan bases kind of live
rent free in the other's head.I know that when Roy left Kansas to
go to North Carolina, there werea lot of fans that were like sad,
mad and probably lost perspective that NorthCarolina was the only school that Roy
Williams would leave Kansas to go tobut at the same time they just couldn't

(27:00):
really contain their big feelings. Andthen it happened again, the inferiority complex
when Roy won those championships with NorthCarolina. And now everything smoothed over.
But I'm sure that we'll get anotherflare up in the future of basketball.
I mean right now, right now, I mean Kansas Scott knocked out by
Arkansas UM and then and then myTargill didn't even make it to the tournament

(27:25):
UM just because it was just itwas kind of a disaster. But but
but but yeah, eventually, likethey are going to clash again. It's
you know, it's it's fate.Uh, It's it's batman versus a joker.
It's not quite North Carolina due becauseNorth Carolina Duke is shaped out of
close proximity and a lot more hateand no there is this roal hatred like

(27:47):
no love, zero, there isno there is. You know, I
have friends who went to Duke,and I say to them, like,
look, three hundred and sixty five, three hundred and sixty three days of
the year, we're cool, threehundred and sixty four on on late beers,
But like on those days we hateeach other and we will go out
of each other Like it's funny.I become friends with Kim Ken jong On

(28:08):
from you know, the actor whowent to do for undergrad and UNC for
met and like we've kind of struckup a kind of fun relationship on Twitter,
but like we we joke with eachother. It's like like because he
was seen taking a selfie with himselfat Cameron in Noor and I tweeted at
him when when Carolina being took uslike hey having fun, you know where

(28:30):
was Kansas. It's kind of like, Okay, we understand that's where That's
what Brad Dean Smith's become Dean Smith. That's you know, that's what kind
of you know, Roy of coursecame up through there. There's just recognition
that that that Kansas is where basketballkind of started. You know, we
have respect for it, and it'slike it sucked that we lost, and
like I think it's more if Dukeis more fueled by hatred, I think

(28:53):
Kansas it's fueled by respect but alsoterror fear. For his part, Jason
Sadekis has shown himself to be theconsummate diplomat because although he is a huge
Kansas Jayhawks fan. I've noticed he'sworn I'm pretty sure it's um the Carolina
Blue Jordans ones a couple of timesin episodes, and he's always wearing Jordan's.

(29:19):
So he's very respectful and even Iwould say reverend of aspects of Carolina
basketball history. Well, Roy helpedrecruit Michael. That's the other thing people
forget. And there's you know,anybody who's watched the Last Dance, Roy
had some of the best lines andin the Last Dance, like you know,
obviously he helped recruit it. Hetold Dan Smith about him. And
there's that line where you know,Michael Jordan says, I want to be

(29:41):
the best player here and then Roysays, well, you gotta work harder
than everybody, and then Michel saysI worked as harder than everybody else.
He says, I thought you justsaid you want to be the greatest,
you know, And there's that linewhere Roy says, like, uh,
you know, Michael Jordan's the onlyguy I know who has switched to turn
off and he never freaking turned itoff, and like, you know,
this is so yeah, Like Imean, you know you can't talk about

(30:03):
in this you know, you can'ttalk about the legacy of Michael Jordan without
talking about Roy Williams. Yeah,yeah, all right, So switching gears
just a bit. You mentioned earlierthat you finished a book in twenty twenty
one. The title of the bookis We're Not Broken, Changing the autism
conversation. You are an individual wholives with autism and who wrote the book

(30:26):
essentially to shine a light on whatit is actually like to be autistic,
to be an autistic person. Yeah, so what was the process that led
you to want to start writing thisbook? Yeah? So, I mean
I'm a polt, you know again, I'm a political journalist by day,
right, So it started out asI was at a party in twenty fifteen
a guy with the name of TimMack, who's now an NPR great journalist.

(30:48):
He's been reporting a lot in Ukraine. He offered me a drink and
I said, um, oh,I don't drink because the autos a spectrum
in a medicine on mix. Itake cam mix with alcohol. It's that
what I'm saying, Come out,have a drink. Like he said,
Oh, there's a lot of autisticpeople in DC. You should write about
that. And at the time Iwas really new in my career, so
I was like, yeah, whenI get better at being a journalist.
At the time, I was coveringyou know, economics and politics. I

(31:11):
was happy doing that. That Whathappened was I was working at a place
called National Journal and be Um Publicationsprint edition was gonna shut down. So
my editor, a gay the nameof Richard just who's just a lovely human
being. He said, I justwant to have these kind of just bold
pieces, you know, the romanos, like what are they gonna do?
Fire me at the end of theyear. So I pitched this idea about

(31:34):
it, like what it's like tobe an autistic in DC, kind of
like a fun, little chatty,kind of like piece about the like insider
DC. That's what I thought itwould be. And then he really kind
of pushed me, which I feelwhat a good editor should do, to
say, well, why should thisexist? And I said, well,
I think we focused too much ontrying to cure out to people and not
enough. I'm trying to help outjust two people live more fully lost.

(31:56):
It's like, there's your piece though, and at the time, again,
this is twenty eight this was twentyfifteen, so if you remember Donald Trump
at this time starts running for president. And it was the second Republican presidential
debate where they asked Trump about vaccinesand his believe about vaccines and autism.
And what was interesting was that Trumpof courses autism is in the epidemic,

(32:22):
you know, and he talks aboutthe vaccines and um, which kind of
was real proudly to how you wouldhandled COVID. But but but the other
thing that stood out to me wasthat arguably more was Ben Carson, who
is a pediatric neurosurgeon. Uh said, you know, kind of gave Trouble
a pass. Someone who should knowbetter. Yes, yes, someone who

(32:45):
should know better, someone who's who'swho's very smart. And that was that.
That was the moment. Like andthen like, you know, again,
I grew up in in California,and I thought, Okay, Trump
is you know, an unorthodox BrewRepublican, but he's a Republican in the
West. But I grew up insouthern California where there's a lot of you
know, you know, Roy Kent'syoga moms, you know, who don't

(33:07):
want to vaccinate their kids because theydon't want to put toxins in their kids'
bodies or something. But like soso so, like I thought, wait,
a lot, you know, look, Trump is Trump, but like
there's a lot of people who believethat. And my feeling was, Okay,
I hear a lot of politicians talkingabout it, because it wasn't just
Donald Trump who was talking about it. Barack Obama talked about it. John

(33:29):
McKay talked about it. These arenot people who are ill informed. These
are very smart people who are believingthis. And my feeling is as a
political journalism is like, Okay,we have a lot of bad information about
autism. That was when we havereally bad policies about autisms. So that
was really what kind of spurred thebook. And really so I wrote that
peace for National journal And I thinkthe next question is like, Okay,
how does that bad information translating toBut it's like to be autistic in America.

(33:51):
So as a result, what Idid as I kind of hit the
road. I traveled to West Virginia. I traveled to Michigan. I traveled
to Tennessee. I traveled to thebar area, California. I traveled to
a few of the places, andI really just tried to get in an
understanding of what it's like to beautistic America, and how we are misunderstandings
a watch is negatively effect to autisticpeople, but also what a world,

(34:13):
what a society could look like ifwe're affirming the people too are with are
autistic. Right, Because one ofthe praises of your book is that it
humanizes folks with autism and people whoare on the spectrum in ways that where
they feel seen in ways and maybethey hadn't been seen before. And you're
able to bring not only your ownsort of personal perspective. It's not exactly
a memoir, but you use alot of your own personal experiences. But

(34:36):
you we've been in so seamlessly withfolks who are on the spectrum from kind
of across the country, who arein a bunch of different disciplines. Like
you talked to professors, you talkto just folks who are, you know,
working in sort of regular retail dayjobs. You talk to all sorts
of different folks who are in allsorts of different areas to try and to
try and show like, hey,this is not one size fits all,
rejecting these stereotypes and kind of helpingfolks who are on the spectrum who don't

(35:00):
have an autism diagnosis to understand.Okay, the onus is on folks like
me to say, like, whatis the way that we're making You know
that my sort of internalized ableism iskeeping me from making this a better space
for everyone to be more inclusive.And that's like one of the things the
book does such a good job becauseyou even those stories along with data and

(35:20):
studies in such a beautiful way.Yeah, I mean, I really thank
you for saying that. I thinkone of the things that I realized that,
Like I think initially when the bookcame out, when I started writing
the book, I think a lotof who wanted it to be a memoir
and then you're wrong. It hasstarted parts of my own personal life in
it. But I think that,you know, the impulse as a journalist
is to always be you know,is like I realized, you know,
my story is only in bad It'sone story. And I think that the

(35:44):
more, you know, anytime Ithought about doing a memoir, I realized,
oh, there are other people whoI wonder if other people are experienced
in this too, And then Iwas just kind and it was just like
any time that I wanted to makeit just about me. I realized,
Oh, there's probably something larger goingon, or I would just think to
myself, Yeah, but I'm onlyone person and who's just leaving out.
And I think that was really oneof the important things that I wanted to

(36:04):
do is I want to include asmany people as possible when writing about them.
Writing about this well, one ofthe things that you touch on in
the very beginning of the book isthat the conversation about autistic folks was led
for so long by folks like theirparents or their caretakers or other people who
are who are well meaning, butyes, don't have that same experience.

(36:25):
And so I love that you goto first person accounts of autistic folks and
bring those in. So, whatare some of the like, maybe the
most unexpected responses to the book thatyou've received and maybe the most fulfilling are
kind of surprising. I think theones that are always that are always fulfilling
are the ones. It's funny,like a lot of times I get email

(36:45):
or I get DMS from people whohave just been newly diagnosed as autistic and
they say their book help them understandmore. Or I get emails from parents
or grandparents sometimes of autistic people whenthey say, you know it's you know,

(37:05):
your book made me realize, like, hey, I need to you
know, put the focus on mykid and make sure that I think about
what my kid or my grandkid wantsnow what I want. And I think
those are always the ones that like, um always means something because it shows
that you actually change their mind,you help, and it made them rethink
how they make sure that how theylook out for their loved ones well being.
And then the other ones, youknow, like I said, with

(37:27):
newly diagnosed people or with people whorealize they might be autistic, like when
they realize that they're not fieled versionsof normal and that they realize that there's
this like larger community, that alwaysamazing because like I'll say this, like
when I was a kid growing up, like I was diagnosed when I was
like it formally diagnosed when I waslike eight or nine, and like the
understanding of autism was changing as Iwas growing up. You know, you

(37:52):
know that you're different. You maynot know all the labels, but like
you know that you don't belong oryou know that you're being ostracized by your
kids on the schoolyard. It wasn'tuntil I started writing about autism myself.
It wasn't as until I started meetingother autistic people interviewing other autistic people,
that I learned that it was possiblefor me to have a life, fulfilling

(38:15):
life on my own, because,like I had heard all the horror stories
about like you're never gonna be ableto grow up or graduate college, or
or live on your own, orget married or any of those things.
And I think that it was veryliberating and very refreshing and reassuring to me
through interviewing all these types of peoplethat like, wow, I could actually

(38:35):
have a good, in fulfilling andhappy life. So when that, when
I see that, I get torelate, because like that was such a
revelation for me when I was writingand reporting the book. So when other
people, other autistic people particularly,get that revelation, that is so reassuring,
and it's something that, like im, it's the best feeling in the

(38:59):
world. It truly is one ofthe things that can make folks feel invisible
or have a difficult time imagining theirplace in the world. In our society
kind of centers around depictions of differentindividuals or communities in the media. In
your opinion, are there any depictionsof folks on the spectrum and popular media
that you find particularly constructive or helpfuland if not, what might that look

(39:23):
like? You know, of coursethere have been some really bad portrayals,
right, yes, yeah's like Imean, I mean they did. There
have been like the super computer geeks, the big bank theory stuff. There's
been There's been some really terrible depictyou know, I know people on one
end rain Man was important because itwas like the first time people saw autism.
But then on the other ended,it really reinforced some bad stereotypes about

(39:45):
autism. So like that, Sothere are so like it was really kind
of a mixed blessing in some ways. But I think that, you know,
I've been watching on Netflix the showExtraordinary Attorney Wou, which I think
is on Netflix. It's fantastic.There was that many mini film that picks
are Dead called Loop, which wasincredible. It's it was cast with a

(40:07):
non speaking autistic girl as the maincharacter, Madison Bandy to The girl who
was playing this not speaking autistic girlwas actually a non speaking autistic girl of
color. It was one of thebest depictions of autism I've ever seen.
I think that it's getting better.I think the more that you get more
autistic people in the writer's room,and more autistic people even just consulting on

(40:29):
a show, I think has beenhelpful. You know. I think that
because, like I think what Iwas worried about when shows like A Typical
came out and there was kind ofa backlash because a lot of autistic people
didn't like the portrayals. I thinkI was worried on one end that movies
do studios and television studios would juststop doing portrayals of autism. You know,
for a while that was the case. But I think now there's more

(40:52):
of a oh, we could maybedo more. If we do more,
you know, stuff with autistic folksinput, then will get more people who
want to watch it. Uh,you know, I think that's been where
you're seeing it more. But ofcourse it's not that we're it needs to
be, but it's still is better. I think the fact that other movies
that have positively depicted depicted disability notnecessarily odd to movies like Coda, Uh,

(41:15):
did a Fantastic did Fantastically Want anAcademy Award last year. I think
that gives um, Hollywood the incentiveto to make more, you know,
disability minded movies. So it's stilla long way to go. Um.
You know, what I've noticed isthat like a lot of times when they

(41:36):
have didn't been when autism depictions aren'texplicit, they've actually been better than like
when they're they're employed than when they'reactually explicit. So like I think,
uh, what was that one withDenzel Washington, Roman Israel, Esquire or
whatever. We're like, it's kindof implied he's autistic. That's great.
Uh, there was obviously community withAbduh, you know, Danny Putty who's
also on Apple Plus on Apple TVwith the Quastic Quest. I thought that

(41:59):
I thought that show is fantastic whenit comes to pinting autism, but it
still is getting I think it's there'sstill a lot of skittishness. I think
about autism in a way you don'tnecessarily see with talking around. Hollywood still
messes up deafness a lot, stillmesses up blindness a lot. But I
think that there is still those disabilitiesstill exists in the public imagination in a

(42:22):
way that autism has just just startedto and I think one of the things
that I say too, and Isay this to my friends and media who
want to write about disability but arekind of afraid of it, is like,
yes, you can initially mess up, but the only way to get
to good depictions of autism and medialike in portrayals, is by constantly reporting,
constantly telling stories, getting better atit and building trust. And the

(42:43):
same way, the only way Ithink we're going to get good portrayals of
autism is starting by doing kind ofreally rough portrayals of autism and learning and
learning how to do better and gettingbetter and listening to autistic people and getting
that feedback, you know, becauselike I think even the fact that that
movie See It Did, which wasso terrible and got such bad reviews,
I think that in some ways thaton one end, it was like it

(43:06):
was good to seeing people saying,no, this is a bad portrayal,
like even Tina Fey and Amy Pohlermade fun of it at the Golden Globes.
But on the other I think whatit did isn't shown Hollywood, Like,
oh, if we do a reallyhalf portrayal of autism, there's gonna
be some backlunh. Well, twothings about what you said stick out to
me. One is that, likeone of the core tenets of your book
is how people with autism so oftenget pigeonholed into like tech like steam or

(43:29):
sorry, into steam disciplines. Likeit's like okay, like you can do
the numbers, you can do thecoding this and that, and you're you're
you know you you say often inyour book like I'm living proof, like
I didn't want to do that stuff. I wanted to be a journalist.
I wanted to be a reporter,and like that's part of the thing is
like with in media and Hollywood whereverfolks are making this media, like having
those folks in the room and knowingthat people with autism are capable of that,

(43:51):
Like that is that that in itselfas a big piece of the conversation.
And then two, I love thatyou pointed out the character and community
a bed just because I feel likethat was maybe even like a little bit
ahead of the curve, and itdid it portrays he portrayed in a way
to where I don't remember if itis explicit in the show. Maybe it
is, but like it wasn't thewhole. It wasn't the focus of his
whole character, like he was awhole character. Yeah, and that is

(44:13):
that it's so important too. Yeah, I think they're like allowing autistic people
to be their whole selves and notjust having that one part of Yeah,
obviously it's an indelible part of whothey are, but like they can have
wise, they can date, theycan screw up, they can you know,
go to school, they can havejobs. Like, I think that
that's incredibly important. I think havingautistic people who are just you know,

(44:35):
kind of just living through life andwho aren't hyper slavants. I think it's
you know, super important a depictionthat we see in media. A group
of people that are very represented inmedia are those of reporters. We see
those in tons of shows. Andto bring the conversation back to Ted Lasso
just a bit, how did youfeel about the portray ale and behavior of

(45:00):
our friend Trent Krim from The Independent, especially his kind of departure from The
Independent around the end of season two. Oh yeah, no, so it
was funny, like I this isthis is a true story, like not
this last Halloween, but the Halloweenbefore. So like I report on Capitol
Hall a lot Mitt Romney dressed upas Ted Lasso, and I cannot believe

(45:22):
that, Like I missed the chanceto say Eric Garcia The Independent to Tim
mitt Rowney that he was dressed asTed Lasso, I've missed that. I'm
going to be kicking myself with therest of my life that. But so
first off, I should say that, like, you know, British journalism
is very different from American journalism,and I think that's been one of the
things I've learned cover working for aBritish newspaper like The Independent, but just

(45:43):
trying to you know, see itselfmore as a global newspaper than just a
British newspaper. But like I mean, I think I think that he was
definitely one of the things I jokedabout with my colleagues that like when he
basically outed his source snate, andalso that he kind of didn't really ask
Ted comments um, like like hekind of went around it when he asked

(46:05):
Ted recomment about it, like likein that one episode before he outs him
like it was it was. Itwas very much a breach of journalistic ethics.
Um. But Trent is a veryfascinating character because I think that there
is you know, you know,and like before I ever got into politics,
I loved sports, you know,sports punt Retreat. I mean it

(46:27):
kind of just show how, youknow, Trent and Roy for the brief
moment he's a pundit do kind ofshow how sports media can sometimes contribute to
the worst aspects of sports. Uhthat was, And of course Roy at
some point says screw this, youknow. And of course Trent feels very

(46:49):
bad about what he did, andhe outs himself and he ends up getting
kicked on his key start. Ilike the character of Trent grim so I'm
interested to see what comes next forhim. So this pertains to both the
show and your book. You mentionedin your book that you are a huge
fan of rock and metal music andthat you grew up wanting to be a
guitarist and a musician, and youeven equipping your book that you used to
kind of have this debate with yourdad about whether David Lee Roth or Sammy

(47:13):
Hagar was the better Van Halen singer. And so I'm just curious, where
are you guys. Okay, it'sfunny because that's the same thing. There's
a little joke about that, Andsee, I want to Lasso. So
I'm wondering where you fall in thatdebate. Yeah, when they play against
Everton, yes, coach Beard getsfifty one fifty Yes, then he's like
the best Van Halen singer. Andthe Beard's like ahm, and he's like,
it's not Sammy Hagar. Don't getwrong, prefer sam So, you

(47:38):
know, I like a lot ofSammy Hagar stuffing, like Sammy's a better
singer, don't get me wrong.I think like musically, but I mean,
those first four or five Van Halenalbums, you can't beat them.
You can't beat them. I'm sorry, Uh, you know, I think
that they I think that David LeeRoth just fits that band properly. I
mean, yeah, you can seeyou can make all the r and said,

(48:00):
oh well, Eddie Rays Wilson thesongs. But yeah, it's like
yeah, but it's not. It'snot David Lee Rong. It's not that
doesn't have David Ly rock. Yeah. I feel like I was like sheltered.
My dad was a huge still asa huge Van Halen fan, and
like I feel like I was shelteredfrom the Sami Hagar like era, Like
I didn't even know that was athing. Until I was like in middle
school. I was like, hey, there's this is a different guy and
he's like, yeah, it's likeokay. I was like, oh,

(48:23):
I've just missed out on like halfof van Halen history. But it's okay,
Like I'll figure it out. Dad. Thanks. So that that is
that it was the opposite with mydad. But because I saw the twenty
four reunion with with Sammy Hagar whichkind of went to hell, and then
I won tickets in two and seven. Oh nice to see van Halen with

(48:45):
David Lee roth Stable Center with mydad. Choice all right, well,
I want to wrap it up withone final question that ties into your work
as a political journalist and reporter.There are some very few political jokes in
Ted Lasso, so I'm just wonderingif you had one that you found particularly
cheeky or that was your favorite.One of my favorite ones is when um

(49:06):
Ted asks Sparry. He says,how's missus missus Beard doing, because you're
talking like I I like moms becausethey're kind of like a blue produce.
That's the episode where we meet Rebecca'smom and they're talking about mom. Yes,
exactly. It's a great it's athat's a great of it. And
um and then like he says,how's missus Beard doing. He says full
blown qing on and I think youhear Beard going and you're like okay,

(49:30):
Like as somebody who is who livedin Washington, DC during January six,
I'm like, yeah, that trackswell, man. Eric, thank you
so much for coming on the showand chatting it up with us about ted
Lasso and your book. It's beena pleasure, man, it's been so
fun. Let's do this. Yeah, and that is our show. We

(49:53):
had a blast chatting ted Lasso andcollege basketball with Eric. You can find
links to his book, his websitside, his work, and all the
other stuff we mentioned in this episodein the show notes. We'll be back
with more ted Lasso goodness, butyou can keep the conversation going with us
on Twitter and Instagram in the meantime. Our handle on both platforms is at
ted Lasso Pod. This episode ofRichmond Till We Die is brought to you

(50:15):
by Gin and Kerosene Productions. Itwas produced by me Brett and me Christian.
If you're enjoying the podcast, pleasetake thirty seconds to subscribe to our
feed and give the show a fivestar review on Apple Podcasts or a five
star rating on Spotify. Hey,if you're feeling generous, you could even
do both. As always, weappreciate all the ways y'all share your love

(50:37):
and support for the pod. Okay, I'm Christian signing off for Brett and
Eric. Thanks for listening, anduntil next time, Cheers y'all. Coord