April 13, 2023 • 41 mins
Welcome to the Crown & Anchor, Greyhounds! In this episode Marisa, Christian, and Brett have a conversation with Cinco Paul, the co-creator, executive producer, songwriter, and showrunner of Schmigadoon.
In addition to Schmigadoon, Cinco Paul is also known for his work as a screenwriter for beloved films like Horton Hears a Who, The Lorax, The Secret Life of Pets, and the Despicable Me trilogy – all of which he worked on with his longtime friend and collaborator Ken Daurio.
For the uninitiated, Schmigadoon is a musical comedy television series that centers on the relationship of two NYC doctors, Josh and Melissa – played by Keegan-Michael Key and Cecily Strong, respectively. The show is a brilliant love letter to musical theater which also cleverly parodies many of the genre’s most recognizable features through hilarious and heartfelt performances from the A-list cast of musical theatre stars.
We here at Richmond Til We Die are huge fans of Schmigadoon. Luckily, Cinco’s a big fan of Ted Lasso too, and so we were thrilled to have an opportunity to chat with the man who helped create another one of our favorite shows!
And this is your official warning - there are some light spoilers for the first four episodes of Ted Lasso’s third season as well the first three episodes of Schmigadoon’s second season in this episode.
More extensive show notes can be found on our website: https://www.tedlassopod.com/cinco-paul-schmigadoon-schmicago-ted-lasso
Richmond Til We Die is an episode-by-episode conversation about the Apple TV+ show Ted Lasso, where we explore the characters, their relationships to each other, and how they're able to make us laugh until we can hardly breathe one moment and then feel with the deepest parts of our hearts the next. When you're here, you're a Greyhound.
In addition to Schmigadoon, Cinco Paul is also known for his work as a screenwriter for beloved films like Horton Hears a Who, The Lorax, The Secret Life of Pets, and the Despicable Me trilogy – all of which he worked on with his longtime friend and collaborator Ken Daurio.
For the uninitiated, Schmigadoon is a musical comedy television series that centers on the relationship of two NYC doctors, Josh and Melissa – played by Keegan-Michael Key and Cecily Strong, respectively. The show is a brilliant love letter to musical theater which also cleverly parodies many of the genre’s most recognizable features through hilarious and heartfelt performances from the A-list cast of musical theatre stars.
We here at Richmond Til We Die are huge fans of Schmigadoon. Luckily, Cinco’s a big fan of Ted Lasso too, and so we were thrilled to have an opportunity to chat with the man who helped create another one of our favorite shows!
And this is your official warning - there are some light spoilers for the first four episodes of Ted Lasso’s third season as well the first three episodes of Schmigadoon’s second season in this episode.
More extensive show notes can be found on our website: https://www.tedlassopod.com/cinco-paul-schmigadoon-schmicago-ted-lasso
Richmond Til We Die is an episode-by-episode conversation about the Apple TV+ show Ted Lasso, where we explore the characters, their relationships to each other, and how they're able to make us laugh until we can hardly breathe one moment and then feel with the deepest parts of our hearts the next. When you're here, you're a Greyhound.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:12):
Welcome to the crown On InCor Greyhounds. This is Richmond Till We Die,
a conversation about the Apple TV Plusshow ted Lasso, where we explore the
characters, their relationships to each other, and how they're able to make us
laugh until we can hardly breathe onemoment and then feel with the deepest parts
of our hearts the next. I'mBrett and I think I may have finally
(00:35):
found my doorway to wear. Intoday's episode, alongside my co host Marissa
and Christian, I am ridiculously excitedto introduce our guest for today, the
co creator, executive producer, songwriter, and showrunner of the Apple TV Plus
series Schmigadoon Sinko Paul. In additionto Schmigadoon, Sinko Paul is also known
for his work as a screenwriter forbeloved films like Horton, Here's a Who,
(00:57):
The Lorax, The Secret Life ofPets, and The Pickable Me trilogy,
all of which he worked on withhis longtime friend and collaborator Ken Dario.
Because of the overlapping themes and generalgood vibes of both shows, there
are many Ted Lasso fans who arealso Schmegadoon fans, But if you have
yet to make your own journey tothe quaint little town of Schmeigadoon, allow
(01:18):
me to provide a brief synopsis beforewe get into our conversation. Schmeegadoon is
a musical comedy series that centers onthe relationship of two New York City doctors,
Josh and Melissa, played by Keegan, Michael Key, and Cecily Strong,
respectively. The show is a brilliantlove letter to musical theater, which
also cleverly parodies many of the genre'smost recognizable features through hilarious and heartfelt performances
(01:40):
from the a list cast of musicaltheater stars. The first season premiered on
Apple TV Plus in July twenty twentyone, and the second season, titled
Schicago, is currently midway through itssix episode run. Schmeegadoon Season one follows
Josh and Melissa as they embark ona backpacking trip in an attempt to patch
up their failing relationship. They getaustin the woods and soon discover a magical
(02:01):
town called Schmigadoon, which is perpetuallytrapped in the esthetics and musical stylings of
Golden Age musicals like Oklahoma and theMusic Man. Melissa and Josh soon learn
that they cannot leave the town untilthey find true love, and in the
second season, a recently married Melissaand Josh are struggling with feelings of unhappiness,
so they resolve to return to thequaint town of Schmigadoon in search of
(02:23):
a remedy. Unfortunately, their journeyinto the woods leads them to Schmicago,
a magical city that pays satirical homageto the sexier, darker musicals of the
nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies. Inorder to escape, they must find a
happy end. In case it wasn'talready abundantly clear, we hear at Richmond
Till We Die are huge fans ofSchmigadoon. Luckily, Sinko is a big
(02:46):
fan of ted Lasso too, andso we were thrilled to have an opportunity
to chat with the man who helpedcreate another one of our favorite shows.
And let this be your official warning. There are some light spoilers for the
first four episodes of ted Lasso's thirdseason, as well as the first three
episodes of Schmickadon's A second season inthis episode, So Greyhounds please join us
(03:07):
in giving a warm welcome to Sinco. Paul, thank you so much for
being here with us. Sinko Ah, thanks so much for having me very
excited. We're thrilled you're here.And one of the things that's brought us
together today is you are a fanof ted Lasso. So why did you
decide to start watching the show orwhat kept you watching the show? Well,
(03:29):
you know, I feel very connectedto the show, and thank heavens
for ted Lasso, right for Imean for my show. Right It's helped
my show so much. It helpedreally launch Apple TV plus in a big
way. So I'm sure initially Iwas curious about it because of that,
right because oh, you know,Apple bought my show. Here's their first
(03:53):
big comedy coming out. I shouldcheck that out. And always have been
as Todcas fan, you know,for the longest time. So and I
think, I, you know,I'm kind of a sports guy, although
not a soccer or you know,football as it's called Hill as a fam
but I'd seen his like bits,you know, and so so because of
(04:18):
that, so I started watching outof curiosity. But then I was really
pulled in by you know, myshow also really wears its heart on its
sleeve, and it is kind ofmeant to be an antidote to cynicism and
all those sort of things. AndI just felt like, oh my gosh,
this is a show after my ownheart that had a very like I
(04:38):
always feel like everything I do,I'm trying to redo. It's a wonderful
life, right, and it's avery George Bailey Jimmy Stewart sort of character.
So so I think I was lookedright from the first episode because I
said, oh, I see whatthis is show is doing, and I
freaking love it. It's fitting thatyou mentioned it's a wonderful life and George
Bailey, because isn't Ted watching It'sa Wonderful Life in the Christmas episode and
(05:02):
season? Isn't that on the TV? So I think that's a film that
Jason really enjoys two from what we'veread and even seen in the show.
So and like Ted Lasso himself speakingof you clearly love musical theater. Thinking
back, what was your introduction tothe genre and what is it that made
you fall in love or maybe stayin love with it for this long?
(05:23):
Yeah, I think. I meanit started with my mom playing her records,
you know, when I was alittle kid, and so these cast
recordings of Camelot. I particularly rememberCamelot in South Pacific and My Fair Lady
and Guys and Dolls. I thinkI still have the LPs that I inherited
from her of those, but thatwhen I was a really little kid,
(05:44):
I kind of fell in love withit. Then I think what really pulled
me in was I'm a freshman inhigh school. I played piano ever since
I was like five. I wasa classical pianist, and you know,
and they asked me if I hadaccompany the school music, which is how
to succeed in business, and changedmy life because I found my people,
(06:06):
you know, I found my tribe, and it's like, oh, this
is my group. And I lovedit. And I was really good at
playing piano by ear. So Iwould sit at the piano and they would
call out songs and I'd play themand they'd sing them, and I just
felt like a superhero ors you know, I just felt like so loved.
And also, you know, that'swhere all the girls were, so it
(06:29):
was also like they'd sit down atthe bench on the bench next to me,
and I was just like, I'min heaven. I never want to
leave this place. So I endedup playing piano for like my first three
years, and I always I wantedto be on stage, you know,
really badly, and so finally mysenior year they let me. And you
know, I had one of theleads in the musical. But yeah,
(06:50):
that's not my thing. I'm ahorrible actor, but it was nice of
them to give me the chance tobe on stage finally. Wow. Well,
I'm so excited that you said that, because I'm a singer and a
pianist as well, and that's kindof how I got my start, was
accompanying for shows. And oh youknow, it takes a very special skill
(07:10):
to do that. I mean,you could be a great piano player,
but the company for musical theater justworks so many other muscles and I love
that too, So I'm great.Great to hear. Yeah, yeah,
that's the best, right you haveto follow the singers. It's a collaborative
effort. Yeah, totally. We'vementioned a couple of different similarities between ted
(07:31):
Lasso and Schmigadon. Another one isthat both shows have developed musical motifs for
certain characters. It's something that wetalked about with Tom Howe, one of
the composers for the show, whenwe interviewed him. And so, while
it's common in film scores and stagework, not so much in television.
What are the challenges and rewards ofthat approach in this television medium and why
(07:57):
do you think the motif of thetechnique works so well for both shows?
Um? Boy, I can mostlyspeak to my own show, you know,
I mean, we're a musical,so it's like, you know,
it's very easy to find everybody's theme. It's the song that they last saw,
right, And so so Christopher Willis, who does all of our score,
our underscore mostly he just likes tookall the melodies from my songs and
(08:22):
it was really important to you keepthose melodies alive. But it also like
works really well emotionally, right.I Mean, it's like music is so
powerful, so all you have todo is hear the theme and you remember,
oh, I remember when the mayorsang that song about wanting to let
everybody know he's gay, but hecan't, you know, And so whenever
(08:43):
you play that, it's just likeit takes you back to that place.
So it's a shorthand, right,it's really valuable. I never saw it
as any sort of challenge and butjust like a great tool to use in
storytelling and character work. I thinkI've noticed, you know, in season
two of Schicago, we even havethose motifs coming back from season one,
(09:09):
which I watched with some of ourcollege students, and some of them had
seen Schmigadoon and some of them werestarting with Chicago, and so those who
I think had watched for the firstseason, it just makes you feel more
embedded in the story when you getto you know, recall who they were
last season and who they are thisseason. So I just I love that
they gets so creative and wonderful.Oh thanks, yeah, that's I love
(09:33):
it too. There's I think there'sa really impactful moment when Cecily's characters meets
Alan's character in Chicago, and ofcourse she had a real connection to him
in Schmigadoon, but he doesn't rememberher, so there's this bitter sweet thing
and then when his theme plays overthat, it's just like I actually get
a little teary. It's yes,because you remember, oh she remembers him,
(09:58):
and they were really good friends.But now we doesn't remember her.
It's kind of sad, but soyeah, it's I mean, the power
of music, man, it is. It is the best and that and
you see that all through ted Lassotoo, right in song selection and all
that sort of stuff. Yeah,and Hannah singing and yeah, she's truly
amazing. And I think one ofthe reasons that so many fans cross over
(10:22):
from ted Lasso Schmigadoon is because ofjust the honesty and characters which you know,
and I don't know, maybe youcan say what sort of how you
would define Schmigadoon, you know,is it a parody? You know?
It feels like a love letter tomusical theater, you know, and I
think that's why so many fans youknow, fall in love with it and
(10:45):
just appreciate, you know, evenas they started their journey through the woods
in season two and you hear thatlittle into the Woods, Oh, it's
just like it just gives you thoseyou know, those little nuggets where if
you know, you know, andyou just feel so special, like getting
those little surprise Easter eggs all throughout. Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned
(11:07):
that, because that was one littlething. I thought, there's there are
a couple who are struggling to havea child, and I go into the
woods. So it's very very intothe woods. And also the sense that
we're kind of like act two ofInto the Woods in season two of Schmigadoon.
As far as Ted Lasso and ourshow lining up, like my dream
was that someone would do an articlesaying like perfect companion, Apple now has
(11:31):
like the perfect set of comedies.And someone wrote that article and it was
just like Ted Lasso and Schmigadoon,like it's just like this earnest you know,
hopeful shows you know that go welltogether. And it made me so
happy because I really aspired to belike that. We will never have the
audience that Ted does, but butI love whenever we're lapt in, you
(11:56):
know, with that show well asas an educator of music or educator too,
I think the audience will only continueto grow, as it seems to
do with musical theater pieces, youknow, and especially as you you're building
the genre and the history of itthroughout, you know, eras and I've
taught musical theater history and I justthink, oh my gosh, I never
(12:18):
have to teach this class again.I'm just gonna make them watch Chicago.
So I just want to tell youthank you right away. Oh, you're
welcome. We we did it forthe music theater history features perfect. Well.
Kind of on that note, actually, I'm curious just if you if
you're able to give us a littlebit of peek into the macro creative process
(12:41):
behind Schmigadoon in Chicago, Like,at what point did you know it was
going to be kind of a blendedor sort of mixed anthology series where you
followed protagonists, but you were goingto be progressing through you know, music
theater history chronologically. Yeah, assoon as we knew, because when we
pitched the show, we didn't reallyknow what shape it would take. You
(13:01):
know, how many episodes a season? We didn't really know that. And
so then Apple kind of like clarifiedthat for us, like we're doing this
amount of episodes. And so assoon as that was locked in, I
said, okay, well, Ihave more than six episodes of what I
want to do with this show inme, and there's going to be multiple
(13:22):
seasons. And right at that point, I thought, oh, each season
is going to go into a differentera of musicals, so very early on
I had that, but I didn'tknow for sure if we were going to
get a second season. So youknow, you finished the first season keeping
your fingers crossed, and I pulleda lot of the cast aside and said,
if we get to do a secondseason, how'd you like to be
(13:46):
Sally Bulls? And you know,are telling Ariana what do you think of
being the MC or? I toldAaron, you know, Pipin meets Jesus,
and you know, just to seeall their eyes, see their eyes
light up, it was just thebest feeling. It's like I said,
oh, I pray, I praythat we can get a second season.
So it was so great when wehad that opportunity. And so then it
(14:07):
is just like it's your dream castingall your favorite shows, you know.
I mean, my favorite musical ofall time is Sweeney Todd and Pipton is
also really close. So I knewI wanted those shows for sure. And
then you know, who wouldn't wantto see Sweeney Todd with Alan Cumming and
Kristin Chenowith as totally in love it? Oh my gosh, it's amazing.
(14:30):
Well where were you going? Well? I was just gonna say, Britt
and I were talking last night andhe was like, oh my gosh,
just to be single, Paul,and you're you're amazing as a creative yourself.
But to have people like aarontivate likesinging your songs. I mean,
what does that like? To havethese powerhouses just crushing what you created?
I mean it is like I haveto pinch myself off and on set and
(14:54):
I just I take a step backsometimes because you sometimes get so mired in
everything else. But it's just like, oh my gosh, I wrote a
song in the style of Steven Sundheime, my hero, and Kristin Chenowith is
singing it right now. It's like, this is crazy. How did this
ever happen? And there's one song, there's a love duet in episode four.
(15:16):
It's a song that I actually wrotethe melody of when I was like
nineteen, and it's always sort ofstuck with me because I was very enamored
of Stephen Schwartz, so it's verymuch in his style. But when I
watched them singing that song, Iwas like, oh my gosh, you
know, nineteen year old Cinco,his mind would be blown right now.
(15:39):
This little song that he wrote,is now being performed by Dev Cameron and
Aaron Vade and the show on AppleTea. It's crazy. And if I
can sneak in a follow up,what is it like to watch them sort
of prepare for and to embody likethis love letter? You know, what's
what's the communication theretory between all ofyou. I mean, obviously they do
a lot of preparation on their own, but but it is really fun to
(16:03):
teach them the songs, you know, and see them learn the songs and
see them get excited and then theymake great choices. You know. The
best choices are the ones that surprisedme and it's like, oh, I
didn't think Kristen would do that,you know, but it's just like it's
so her. And that's what makesa performance unique, where they're not trying
to be somebody else. It's justnaturally they do their thing and it makes
(16:26):
it unique. Yeah, And justto give a little bit of context for
our listeners who may become via tedLasso and more of the sports realm and
not so much the musical theater realm, like who you're working with. Well,
I made the comment last night aswe were watching with some of Marissa's
students. It's like it's like watchingthe ninety five Bulls. You know,
It's like it's it's like watching thetwenty twelve heat you know, like you
(16:49):
have like they're all A listers.All these people have had defining cultural moments
on the Broadway stage, and it'sjust, you know, I was just
thinking and the even the folks thatyou've added in season two, Titus Burgess
and Patrick Page, like, holycow, it's crazy. Yeah, the
amount of Tony's and Emmy's and Grammysthey all have. And it was kind
(17:11):
of it was easier to get themfirst season because it was right in the
middle of the pandemic, nothing elsewas happening. We were one of the
first shows to start shooting, andso then it was always a question are
they going to come back for seasontwo? But they were all so excited
because you know, this is theirchance to really show everything they can do.
And so I think that's one ofthe reasons everybody came back, because
(17:34):
because it's like they loved the showand they love doing it. They love
each other too, Like we're allon a group text and everybody's really supportive
of each other. Whenever someone accomplishessomething, there's a lot of congratulations,
so it is like a big happyfamily. I am dying to know.
You know, you write all thesesongs and they are nods and homages to
(17:57):
the songs that have come before orlike in Pippin, And how do you
make it sound like a song weall know but still make it unique?
I mean, I just I listento it and I think, oh,
that has to be like the hardestway to write music ever, Like how
do you do that? I don'tknow if it is. I mean,
(18:18):
it's not easy, for sure,but it is not you know, you've
got a model, right, butit is. It does take. It
takes some work because I don't wantit to ever be a lazy parody,
you know, I hate those thoselazy musical theater Parry's like bouncy bouncy,
and this isn't what musicals all musicalsound like. So I am pretty rigorous
(18:41):
with myself that I play through thescores on the piano first, you know,
to really get to know them.And then if I'm targeting a song,
like I really get to know thatsong. And so I want to
learn the tendencies of the composers harmonicallyand those things, so it feels like
it's a bona fide, like oh, this is a candor an EBB song
that I've never heard before, orthis is a Stephen Sondheim song that was
(19:03):
recently discovered. That's the goal,you know. And I don't know if
anyone will ever really mistake my songfor an actual one, but the goal
is will like get close to that. But it's really fun because I mean
it comes from a place of love, right. I love these songs so
much. I didn't have to doa lot of research on like the songs
from Pippin because I know them factorybefore. Well, my my tenor students
(19:30):
were already like deciding who gets tosing Aaron debates, like, oh,
Doorway to Where that was the firstsong I wrote for this season, just
sort of like I knew because youknow, because I'm such a Pippin fan.
It's like, oh, there willbe a corner of the sky.
Yeah, And it was my dreamlike maybe this because it was such the
(19:51):
big tenor audition song for like decades, I mean it, and so it's
like, yeah, so it's likemaybe this will give a I'm alta.
Oh seriously, my students were like, it's my next semester. Yeah,
the tenors are all thriving with thenew material for Aaron Tobate's characters. Because
I also think you can't Tame Meis like the best, like Billy but
(20:15):
make it tenor like it's so good. Poor Christian is like I don't know
what we're talking about. I'm diggingout. So I do have a question.
One of the amazing things about livetheater is this suspense that anything can
happen at any moment, And sohow does having all of those cameras there
(20:37):
and the ability to do things overand over again change the tension, the
process or even the consumption of whatyou're doing. You can answer that in
terms of schmigagoon or you know,we've seen some very prominent musical theater productions
now cinematized in the last few years, so like either way, but how
(20:57):
does the ability to have do overschanged the vibe? Yeah, I mean,
I will tell you, I wrotetoo big of a show for our
for the shooting schedule we had thisseason, and so it was kind of
like every day are we going tomake our day today? You know,
it was like very tough, soso the reality was we didn't always have
(21:19):
a lot of the leisure of tonsof takes. And what's also great is
like these are pros. They areused to doing eight shows a week,
and so they give you the goodson the first take almost every time.
You know, it's very rarely thatwe would have to do it again.
So it almost does feel a littlemore like live theater than it normally would.
(21:42):
And also I like to get asmuch as we can, like long
take shots for the musical numbers,see the dancers head to toe, you
know, and not have it beso much editing, although there's more of
it this season because Fosse did thata lot. You know, Bob Fosse
like choreographed for the camera, andso there are cuts that are part of
the choreography and so we wanted toemulate that as well. But it really
(22:06):
does feel like we're putting on ashow, you know, more than we're
making a TV show some days.One of the things we love about ted
Lasso is the way that it incorporatespop culture references and meta or self referential
jokes into the dialogue, kind ofby virtue of Shamiga Dune's format. You're
(22:27):
doing this almost constantly, but like, without spoiling anything, what were maybe
a couple of your very most favoritereferences that you got in. I know
you've already mentioned a couple like Cornerof the Sky had to be in.
So maybe what's some that had tobe left on the editing room floor that
you're a little bit still sad about. Yeah, I mean, first I'll
mention one that's a little more subtle, just for you know, I had
(22:51):
an idea that I wanted Cecily towear every outfit the barber strice and had
worn and funny Girl or on aclear day you can see forever, because
I really wasn't we weren't covering thosemusicals otherwise, and I thought like,
oh, sess would look really cutethese, you know, because it's a
very cute look. And so I'mreally interested to see how many people actually
(23:15):
recognize these outfits because you'll see themas they pop up and it's just like,
first of all, Cecily does lookadorable in them, but they're also
like very much of their period,and so that was really delightful for me
to give all those funny Girl andon a clear Day nods just by virtue
of the costumes. And then theone thing that I really wanted to get
(23:38):
in this season that I didn't wasn'table to was Ease On Down the Road
from The Whiz, which I lovethat song so much, it was on
my playlist. I sort of hadan idea for like how it would work,
and we just couldn't find like inthe story right in the narrative.
(24:00):
I just like I tried to shoehornit in one place, but it just
didn't work. Everything so close togetherin Chicago, like it E's On down
the Road song would last ten secondsbecause it's like it's like you go around
the corner and you're you're there.So so we weren't able to do that,
and it makes me sad because that'ssuch a fun song and also a
(24:21):
nod to the black musicals of thistime, right like Pearley in The Whiz.
And the idea was it like Keeganand and this ensemble all African American
Osamba would do the song and thenCecily would feel like, I don't feel
like I should be a place totake part in this because she felt very
uncomfortable like seeing but they're all encouragingher, but she says, I just
(24:41):
don't and maybe like, yeah,exactly her feeling like oh and so um,
so that was that's my big regretthat we weren't able to get that
in somehow. I really appreciate that, again being an edge of cater and
music theater, like the way thatyou're able to also call out things like
(25:06):
racism and sexism in this genre andthat it's still very prevalent. We still
do all these musicals, but there'sa way to be aware of that,
and so I appreciate that too,that there is you know, we're able
to make jokes, we're able tobe on this other side of them and
sort of looking back and saying thatwas problematic, like it's not okay that
(25:29):
that was the challenge this season alittle bit, because you know, these
musicals that we're dealing with were moreforward thinking and progressive and reflecting the social
change of the sixties. But oneof the ways we found they thought they
were really transgressive, you know,and so you sort of like poke fun
at that, like, oh,this none of this is shocking anymore.
And then I did really notice thatlike all these like male protague white boys
(25:53):
searching for the meaning in their life, you know, like such a narcissistic
journey, yes, getting his characterwhen he's like you're a rich white boy,
You're gonna be fine, Like it'sfine, Yeah, exactly. This
just like it's always a reflection ofthe people who are writing the shows,
(26:14):
right, and so it's like,yes, are like hero is going to
be this young guy who of courseis white, who's like trying to figure
out his life. You know,it's like nobody cares. There's a lot
more gold met a joke there toowith him like trying to start Doorway to
Wear like two more times and Ijust like gets cut off. Yeah,
(26:36):
this is it's not about you tohear that. They do. They do.
They can't say it enough well.And you mentioned this a bit ago
about like how sort of prevalent thecandor and EBB and the fossy vibes just
are throughout this season. But youdo a really good job of incorporating other
(26:57):
things. So you know, inseason one you sort of had this illusion
of cohesion kind of with like thecostuming and the set, like it all
looked very same. Same with thesecond season, there's a lot more variety
going on and diversity with the costumingand like even like where different parts of
Chicago are look very different. Andso I'm wondering since the sort of cohesion
(27:18):
and the uniformity didn't show up inthose technical areas this time, Like was
there sort of a guiding principle orlike a theme that you all as creators
lashed onto to say, like whatIshmicago and what isn't? If that makes
sense like narratively or thematically, Yeah, I mean it was kindly. That
was something we discussed a lot,like the first week or so of the
writer's room, right, like canwe get away with this? Like it's
(27:41):
a problem because I wanted to addressall these musicals but they are scattershot,
like Robert and Hammerstein and music Man, they all that all fits together.
They all shake hands and play nice. Yeah, oh for sure, yeah,
but these do not. So Butultimately we said, like, let's
just embrace it. Our audience willmake to be along for the ride and
just say like, oh, thisis fun and it doesn't have to necessarily
(28:03):
make sense, so we can callit out like Keegan has a line at
one point like it's very unclear,like what decades you're going on? Um?
And we decided to just embrace it, and that was kind of the
rule. It was funny, butlike a lot of the people in the
sets and the costumes, like theyaren't used to that sort of thing,
(28:23):
so they're constantly saying like, butwait, what time period is. It's
like when they're asking for like carsand stuff, and I just say,
like, whatever time period we wantit to be. And it was,
Yeah, it was just like hardinitially. Yeah, but it's just like
we basically divided into three sections.So we have sort of the Chicago cabaret,
(28:45):
you know, city life, Americanbig city, and then we've got
Victorian England right with like Oliver andSki, and then we've got the hippies,
right, so we have God's spelledPippin and hair, Jesus Christ superstar
in that world. And so wejust just divided Shmicagan to those three burroughs.
(29:07):
I love it, and then decidedto bounce around. And then we
thought, like the real fun isgoing to be when Josh and Melissa enter
this world and then the world startcrossing over, right, and Sally Bowles
meets Jesus. What does that mean? And so it was that sort of
it's a little like a Marvel cinematictimelines converging. Yeah, it's the musical
(29:33):
theater cinematic universe. I'm here forit. So, as I mentioned,
you are the creator, writer,songwriter of Shamika Dune, but a lot
of your work is writing for writingfor film, like actually writing scripts and
screenplays. And even though I didn'tknow it, my first exposure to your
work was when I watched the SantaClaus too. But I really came to
(29:56):
know your work when my kids,when we had kids and started watching things
like Horton, Here's a Who,The Lorax, Secret Life of Pets,
and all three of the Despicable Memovies, all of which all of our
kids adore. And yeah, yeahwe do too. Of course, of
course they're hilarious. I was alwaysthe goal to make it not torture for
parents. Yeah, and so youdo most of this with your writing partner
(30:18):
Ken Dario and y'all really seem toenjoy writing hilarious and warm family movies.
And I'm just wondering what draws youto create in that genre. I don't
know. I mean, we're bothpretty wholesome, optimistic family guys, you
know, and I have three kids. Ken has three kids there, but
I think it came from that place. But really my intention was comedy from
(30:41):
the from the get go, andthen we sort of got pulled into Horton
and that really changed our lives becauseChris Meladandre, who ran Fox at the
time and brought us in for Horton, was really happy with us, and
he immediately left to form his owncompany called Illumination, and he had I
remember we had lunch with me andKennon said, I'm forming this new company
(31:03):
and how would you like to writeall my movies there? And we said,
yeah, that sounds great, andhe pitched the idea of a villain
who has to adopt three little girls, and I said, we have to
write this. You know, thisis great. And so that's that's really
how we got pulled into animation.Initially we were just writing comedies, you
(31:25):
know, and we were there fora long time, but ultimately, you
know, it sort of wore meout. Ken is back doing it.
He actually didn't want to be involvedin in Schmigadoon much. He did.
Really, the TV world didn't interesthim. It wasn't his thing. So
he's back at Illumination now working therewhere he's most comfortable, and I was
(31:45):
like, I was ready to dosomething a little more adult, a little
more mature, you know. Ithink Schmigadoon is still I don't know PG.
Eleven, PG twelve, Family.I'd say it's in that zone,
but it's just a little more grownup in this icle. Me. Your
faith is important to you. Youand Ken both both grew up in the
(32:07):
Mormon Church, and you have madesome incorporated some religious references into your work,
which is something that we also tendto see in ted Lasso. Do
you have any particularly favorite spiritual orlike church, religiosity, history, Easter
(32:27):
eggs that you have hidden in anyof your projects? Um? I mean,
I don't know if they're they're hidden, but it's all there, you
know. For me, it's allabout love, right, Like That's the
older I get, the more Ifeel like this whole life is just make
people feel loved, you know,and that's that's how you define success.
How many people did you make feelloved? And so so there's I really
(32:52):
wanted to, you know, MildredLayton, Christian's character in season one is
like bad church lady, right,you know, and you know those of
us who attend church I've all experiencedthat woman. I based her very closely
to someone I know, but Ialso really wanted her husband to be like
a good you know Fred Armison's character, like, oh, he's a good
(33:15):
Like I hate when just like religionor Christianity or whatever, it is just
portrayed in one way, you know, as this monolith and it's a very
negative the judgmental side, which likeis you know, is there. But
I also wanted like to say,Oh, there's this sweet minister and he's
going to share something from the scripturesabout love. It's going to teach Josh
(33:36):
something about love and how he needsto grow. And so that was like
sort of a very earnest moment butwas really important to me. And there's
there's some subtle like for those whoknow their Bible and Christianity, Like at
the very end of our season,there's some parallels to the Garden of Eden.
(33:59):
I would say, um, butit's that's very subtile, but I
was aware of it, and Ithought of it in that light, you
know. Um, but I thinkit's also like ted Lasso, you know,
has this very when you call likea Christian way of seeing that it's
like a non believing non practicing Christianor just like elevating love as as like
(34:23):
the ideal and forgiveness and all thosesort of things that I think is why
so many people gravitate to it.You know, it's sort of this more
sort of I don't know, callit progressive Christianity, whatever you'd call it,
but just like with with Love atthe center, Yeah, you could
(34:44):
tell that in the bones of theshow, there's somebody that grew up high
Church at least one person, becauseyeah, yeah, there are like enough
references both in structure and in substancethat like that doesn't hop in backs.
But then at the same time,you're not going to find a lot of
churches having ted Lasso watch parties,and so like maybe that is well,
(35:07):
that's the language, right, that'sgot a barrier for a lot of the
churchgoers. It would be in mychurch too, you know, there's like
sure, no, it's it's scaryall those affords, So take a dune
where it's safer. We don't haveany of those there. One of my
favorite overtu like the parable with theSheep, Oh my gosh, if Sunday
(35:31):
School was like that, I meanI would still go to Sunday School.
Yeah, that was That was likeJulie Klausner wrote that episode and and I
assigned it to her because I madeher watch God's Spell, which she had
never seen the movie, and shehated it. She was like torture for
(35:52):
her, where I just I knowit's very of its time, but I
find it delightful and really fun still, you know. And and I've seen
many productions of God's Spell and Ienjoy them all. I love it.
But for her it was just likewhat is this? This is a nightmare?
So I had her right, likethe worst version of a parable they
(36:13):
would, you know, make Keegan'scharacter want to kill himself. We've talked
quite a bit about your songwriting andcreative process for Schmigadon and Chicago. I'm
just as a fun question if youhad the opportunity to score a musical or
maybe a musical number for some ofthe characters in ted Lasso, Like,
what style or genre or time perioddo you think you'd be most likely to
(36:34):
draw from or maybe just paint usa picture of where you'd start. Wow?
Yeah, I mean Bill Lawrence andI are Twitter friends now, you
know, and I think he knowsthat like, if they make Ted Lasso
into musical, I'm the one they'dbetter call because I would I would love
to do that. I mean,I feel like it's music Man, you
know. I think that would bethe palette for the music somehow. Now
(37:00):
I feel like it's just like ithas that earnestness and that you know,
and Ted has those small iowa thosevalues you know, and so it feels
like it would be the music.Maybe it's like music Man enters, like
what British musical, but it wouldn'tbe like Phantom or any of those.
(37:22):
It would be like Oliver. Therewe go, the music Man crossed with
Oliver. That would be the heartof it, right because the team is
like all the Oliver's was like Fagins, Fagans, Little Boys. Yeah,
there we go. I know thatBrett is a huge fan of the show
(37:42):
Scrubs also a Bill Lawrence show,and Scrubs has the very famous musical episode,
and so yeah, there's always beenthis deeplonging for a Ted Lasso musical
episode, which we've like seen nolike heard no smoke around, so we're
not really like holding our breaths thatthat's going to happen. But we can
dare to dream. Yeah, yeah, I'm just putting it out there.
(38:04):
Yeah, I'll be great your lipsto God's ears. Yeah, you have
to ask your question that you havehere that you've been dying to ask.
Oh no, it's okay. No, I want you to please do it
for me, for you, yes, do it for your wife. Okay,
I'm obligeted to do this because Marrisasked me too. Obviously, you
can't reveal anything. I don't evenknow if we have any news about a
(38:27):
potential season three or what's happening.Obviously, I am like hoping and praying
for one because I want this torun for as long as possible. But
um, if I were to rightnow just like call or suggest Leishmiz as
like the third season's name, Like, if that comes to pass, could
you just name a random character afterone of us, just as a like
anage to this conversation. Suret subtle? Yeah, so be on the look
(39:00):
out. Okay, Season three laishViz the lead character Brett val Brett played
by arn Oh well yeah yeah,I would actually pass away, but so
I wouldn't get to see it,but at least I could maybe see it
from the Afterlife. Yeah yeah,well, Sinko, thank you so much
for your time. This has beenso much fun. Obviously, we want
(39:22):
everyone to go and check out SchmigaDune season two, Akash Michago, tell
your music theater loving friends and eventhose who don't, because as we've seen,
even even the Josh's can learn tolove Schmiga Dune. So true.
Yes, thank you so much forhaving me. It's been a blast great
thanks, take care all right,howe bye and that's our show. We
(39:50):
had a blast chatting with Sinko Paulabout ted Lasso and Schmiga Dune. You
can find links to Sinko social media, the trailers for Schmiga Dune and Schicago,
as well as everything else we discussedin the show notes for this episode
on our website at ted lassopod dotcom. We'll be back soon with more
ted Lasso goodness, but you cankeep the conversation going with us on Twitter
and Instagram in the meantime. Ourhandle on both platforms is at ted Lasso
(40:15):
Pod. This episode of Richmond TillWe Die is brought to you by Jen
and Kerosene Productions. It was producedby me Brett as well as my co
hosts Marissa and Christian. If you'reenjoying the podcast, please take thirty seconds
to subscribe to our feed and givethe show a five star review on Apple
Podcasts or a five star rating onSpotify. Heck, if you're feeling generous,
you could even do both. Asalways, we appreciate all the ways
(40:37):
y'all share your love and support forthe pod. All right, y'all,
I'm Brett signing off for Christian,Marissa, and sinco Paul. Thanks for
listening. Until next time, Cheersy'all,
Welcome to the crown On InCor Greyhounds. This is Richmond Till We Die,
a conversation about the Apple TV Plusshow ted Lasso, where we explore the
characters, their relationships to each other, and how they're able to make us
laugh until we can hardly breathe onemoment and then feel with the deepest parts
of our hearts the next. I'mBrett and I think I may have finally
(00:35):
found my doorway to wear. Intoday's episode, alongside my co host Marissa
and Christian, I am ridiculously excitedto introduce our guest for today, the
co creator, executive producer, songwriter, and showrunner of the Apple TV Plus
series Schmigadoon Sinko Paul. In additionto Schmigadoon, Sinko Paul is also known
for his work as a screenwriter forbeloved films like Horton, Here's a Who,
(00:57):
The Lorax, The Secret Life ofPets, and The Pickable Me trilogy,
all of which he worked on withhis longtime friend and collaborator Ken Dario.
Because of the overlapping themes and generalgood vibes of both shows, there
are many Ted Lasso fans who arealso Schmegadoon fans, But if you have
yet to make your own journey tothe quaint little town of Schmeigadoon, allow
(01:18):
me to provide a brief synopsis beforewe get into our conversation. Schmeegadoon is
a musical comedy series that centers onthe relationship of two New York City doctors,
Josh and Melissa, played by Keegan, Michael Key, and Cecily Strong,
respectively. The show is a brilliantlove letter to musical theater, which
also cleverly parodies many of the genre'smost recognizable features through hilarious and heartfelt performances
(01:40):
from the a list cast of musicaltheater stars. The first season premiered on
Apple TV Plus in July twenty twentyone, and the second season, titled
Schicago, is currently midway through itssix episode run. Schmeegadoon Season one follows
Josh and Melissa as they embark ona backpacking trip in an attempt to patch
up their failing relationship. They getaustin the woods and soon discover a magical
(02:01):
town called Schmigadoon, which is perpetuallytrapped in the esthetics and musical stylings of
Golden Age musicals like Oklahoma and theMusic Man. Melissa and Josh soon learn
that they cannot leave the town untilthey find true love, and in the
second season, a recently married Melissaand Josh are struggling with feelings of unhappiness,
so they resolve to return to thequaint town of Schmigadoon in search of
(02:23):
a remedy. Unfortunately, their journeyinto the woods leads them to Schmicago,
a magical city that pays satirical homageto the sexier, darker musicals of the
nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies. Inorder to escape, they must find a
happy end. In case it wasn'talready abundantly clear, we hear at Richmond
Till We Die are huge fans ofSchmigadoon. Luckily, Sinko is a big
(02:46):
fan of ted Lasso too, andso we were thrilled to have an opportunity
to chat with the man who helpedcreate another one of our favorite shows.
And let this be your official warning. There are some light spoilers for the
first four episodes of ted Lasso's thirdseason, as well as the first three
episodes of Schmickadon's A second season inthis episode, So Greyhounds please join us
(03:07):
in giving a warm welcome to Sinco. Paul, thank you so much for
being here with us. Sinko Ah, thanks so much for having me very
excited. We're thrilled you're here.And one of the things that's brought us
together today is you are a fanof ted Lasso. So why did you
decide to start watching the show orwhat kept you watching the show? Well,
(03:29):
you know, I feel very connectedto the show, and thank heavens
for ted Lasso, right for Imean for my show. Right It's helped
my show so much. It helpedreally launch Apple TV plus in a big
way. So I'm sure initially Iwas curious about it because of that,
right because oh, you know,Apple bought my show. Here's their first
(03:53):
big comedy coming out. I shouldcheck that out. And always have been
as Todcas fan, you know,for the longest time. So and I
think, I, you know,I'm kind of a sports guy, although
not a soccer or you know,football as it's called Hill as a fam
but I'd seen his like bits,you know, and so so because of
(04:18):
that, so I started watching outof curiosity. But then I was really
pulled in by you know, myshow also really wears its heart on its
sleeve, and it is kind ofmeant to be an antidote to cynicism and
all those sort of things. AndI just felt like, oh my gosh,
this is a show after my ownheart that had a very like I
(04:38):
always feel like everything I do,I'm trying to redo. It's a wonderful
life, right, and it's avery George Bailey Jimmy Stewart sort of character.
So so I think I was lookedright from the first episode because I
said, oh, I see whatthis is show is doing, and I
freaking love it. It's fitting thatyou mentioned it's a wonderful life and George
Bailey, because isn't Ted watching It'sa Wonderful Life in the Christmas episode and
(05:02):
season? Isn't that on the TV? So I think that's a film that
Jason really enjoys two from what we'veread and even seen in the show.
So and like Ted Lasso himself speakingof you clearly love musical theater. Thinking
back, what was your introduction tothe genre and what is it that made
you fall in love or maybe stayin love with it for this long?
(05:23):
Yeah, I think. I meanit started with my mom playing her records,
you know, when I was alittle kid, and so these cast
recordings of Camelot. I particularly rememberCamelot in South Pacific and My Fair Lady
and Guys and Dolls. I thinkI still have the LPs that I inherited
from her of those, but thatwhen I was a really little kid,
(05:44):
I kind of fell in love withit. Then I think what really pulled
me in was I'm a freshman inhigh school. I played piano ever since
I was like five. I wasa classical pianist, and you know,
and they asked me if I hadaccompany the school music, which is how
to succeed in business, and changedmy life because I found my people,
(06:06):
you know, I found my tribe, and it's like, oh, this
is my group. And I lovedit. And I was really good at
playing piano by ear. So Iwould sit at the piano and they would
call out songs and I'd play themand they'd sing them, and I just
felt like a superhero ors you know, I just felt like so loved.
And also, you know, that'swhere all the girls were, so it
(06:29):
was also like they'd sit down atthe bench on the bench next to me,
and I was just like, I'min heaven. I never want to
leave this place. So I endedup playing piano for like my first three
years, and I always I wantedto be on stage, you know,
really badly, and so finally mysenior year they let me. And you
know, I had one of theleads in the musical. But yeah,
(06:50):
that's not my thing. I'm ahorrible actor, but it was nice of
them to give me the chance tobe on stage finally. Wow. Well,
I'm so excited that you said that, because I'm a singer and a
pianist as well, and that's kindof how I got my start, was
accompanying for shows. And oh youknow, it takes a very special skill
(07:10):
to do that. I mean,you could be a great piano player,
but the company for musical theater justworks so many other muscles and I love
that too, So I'm great.Great to hear. Yeah, yeah,
that's the best, right you haveto follow the singers. It's a collaborative
effort. Yeah, totally. We'vementioned a couple of different similarities between ted
(07:31):
Lasso and Schmigadon. Another one isthat both shows have developed musical motifs for
certain characters. It's something that wetalked about with Tom Howe, one of
the composers for the show, whenwe interviewed him. And so, while
it's common in film scores and stagework, not so much in television.
What are the challenges and rewards ofthat approach in this television medium and why
(07:57):
do you think the motif of thetechnique works so well for both shows?
Um? Boy, I can mostlyspeak to my own show, you know,
I mean, we're a musical,so it's like, you know,
it's very easy to find everybody's theme. It's the song that they last saw,
right, And so so Christopher Willis, who does all of our score,
our underscore mostly he just likes tookall the melodies from my songs and
(08:22):
it was really important to you keepthose melodies alive. But it also like
works really well emotionally, right.I Mean, it's like music is so
powerful, so all you have todo is hear the theme and you remember,
oh, I remember when the mayorsang that song about wanting to let
everybody know he's gay, but hecan't, you know, And so whenever
(08:43):
you play that, it's just likeit takes you back to that place.
So it's a shorthand, right,it's really valuable. I never saw it
as any sort of challenge and butjust like a great tool to use in
storytelling and character work. I thinkI've noticed, you know, in season
two of Schicago, we even havethose motifs coming back from season one,
(09:09):
which I watched with some of ourcollege students, and some of them had
seen Schmigadoon and some of them werestarting with Chicago, and so those who
I think had watched for the firstseason, it just makes you feel more
embedded in the story when you getto you know, recall who they were
last season and who they are thisseason. So I just I love that
they gets so creative and wonderful.Oh thanks, yeah, that's I love
(09:33):
it too. There's I think there'sa really impactful moment when Cecily's characters meets
Alan's character in Chicago, and ofcourse she had a real connection to him
in Schmigadoon, but he doesn't rememberher, so there's this bitter sweet thing
and then when his theme plays overthat, it's just like I actually get
a little teary. It's yes,because you remember, oh she remembers him,
(09:58):
and they were really good friends.But now we doesn't remember her.
It's kind of sad, but soyeah, it's I mean, the power
of music, man, it is. It is the best and that and
you see that all through ted Lassotoo, right in song selection and all
that sort of stuff. Yeah,and Hannah singing and yeah, she's truly
amazing. And I think one ofthe reasons that so many fans cross over
(10:22):
from ted Lasso Schmigadoon is because ofjust the honesty and characters which you know,
and I don't know, maybe youcan say what sort of how you
would define Schmigadoon, you know,is it a parody? You know?
It feels like a love letter tomusical theater, you know, and I
think that's why so many fans youknow, fall in love with it and
(10:45):
just appreciate, you know, evenas they started their journey through the woods
in season two and you hear thatlittle into the Woods, Oh, it's
just like it just gives you thoseyou know, those little nuggets where if
you know, you know, andyou just feel so special, like getting
those little surprise Easter eggs all throughout. Yeah, I'm so glad you mentioned
(11:07):
that, because that was one littlething. I thought, there's there are
a couple who are struggling to havea child, and I go into the
woods. So it's very very intothe woods. And also the sense that
we're kind of like act two ofInto the Woods in season two of Schmigadoon.
As far as Ted Lasso and ourshow lining up, like my dream
was that someone would do an articlesaying like perfect companion, Apple now has
(11:31):
like the perfect set of comedies.And someone wrote that article and it was
just like Ted Lasso and Schmigadoon,like it's just like this earnest you know,
hopeful shows you know that go welltogether. And it made me so
happy because I really aspired to belike that. We will never have the
audience that Ted does, but butI love whenever we're lapt in, you
(11:56):
know, with that show well asas an educator of music or educator too,
I think the audience will only continueto grow, as it seems to
do with musical theater pieces, youknow, and especially as you you're building
the genre and the history of itthroughout, you know, eras and I've
taught musical theater history and I justthink, oh my gosh, I never
(12:18):
have to teach this class again.I'm just gonna make them watch Chicago.
So I just want to tell youthank you right away. Oh, you're
welcome. We we did it forthe music theater history features perfect. Well.
Kind of on that note, actually, I'm curious just if you if
you're able to give us a littlebit of peek into the macro creative process
(12:41):
behind Schmigadoon in Chicago, Like,at what point did you know it was
going to be kind of a blendedor sort of mixed anthology series where you
followed protagonists, but you were goingto be progressing through you know, music
theater history chronologically. Yeah, assoon as we knew, because when we
pitched the show, we didn't reallyknow what shape it would take. You
(13:01):
know, how many episodes a season? We didn't really know that. And
so then Apple kind of like clarifiedthat for us, like we're doing this
amount of episodes. And so assoon as that was locked in, I
said, okay, well, Ihave more than six episodes of what I
want to do with this show inme, and there's going to be multiple
(13:22):
seasons. And right at that point, I thought, oh, each season
is going to go into a differentera of musicals, so very early on
I had that, but I didn'tknow for sure if we were going to
get a second season. So youknow, you finished the first season keeping
your fingers crossed, and I pulleda lot of the cast aside and said,
if we get to do a secondseason, how'd you like to be
(13:46):
Sally Bulls? And you know,are telling Ariana what do you think of
being the MC or? I toldAaron, you know, Pipin meets Jesus,
and you know, just to seeall their eyes, see their eyes
light up, it was just thebest feeling. It's like I said,
oh, I pray, I praythat we can get a second season.
So it was so great when wehad that opportunity. And so then it
(14:07):
is just like it's your dream castingall your favorite shows, you know.
I mean, my favorite musical ofall time is Sweeney Todd and Pipton is
also really close. So I knewI wanted those shows for sure. And
then you know, who wouldn't wantto see Sweeney Todd with Alan Cumming and
Kristin Chenowith as totally in love it? Oh my gosh, it's amazing.
(14:30):
Well where were you going? Well? I was just gonna say, Britt
and I were talking last night andhe was like, oh my gosh,
just to be single, Paul,and you're you're amazing as a creative yourself.
But to have people like aarontivate likesinging your songs. I mean,
what does that like? To havethese powerhouses just crushing what you created?
I mean it is like I haveto pinch myself off and on set and
(14:54):
I just I take a step backsometimes because you sometimes get so mired in
everything else. But it's just like, oh my gosh, I wrote a
song in the style of Steven Sundheime, my hero, and Kristin Chenowith is
singing it right now. It's like, this is crazy. How did this
ever happen? And there's one song, there's a love duet in episode four.
(15:16):
It's a song that I actually wrotethe melody of when I was like
nineteen, and it's always sort ofstuck with me because I was very enamored
of Stephen Schwartz, so it's verymuch in his style. But when I
watched them singing that song, Iwas like, oh my gosh, you
know, nineteen year old Cinco,his mind would be blown right now.
(15:39):
This little song that he wrote,is now being performed by Dev Cameron and
Aaron Vade and the show on AppleTea. It's crazy. And if I
can sneak in a follow up,what is it like to watch them sort
of prepare for and to embody likethis love letter? You know, what's
what's the communication theretory between all ofyou. I mean, obviously they do
a lot of preparation on their own, but but it is really fun to
(16:03):
teach them the songs, you know, and see them learn the songs and
see them get excited and then theymake great choices. You know. The
best choices are the ones that surprisedme and it's like, oh, I
didn't think Kristen would do that,you know, but it's just like it's
so her. And that's what makesa performance unique, where they're not trying
to be somebody else. It's justnaturally they do their thing and it makes
(16:26):
it unique. Yeah, And justto give a little bit of context for
our listeners who may become via tedLasso and more of the sports realm and
not so much the musical theater realm, like who you're working with. Well,
I made the comment last night aswe were watching with some of Marissa's
students. It's like it's like watchingthe ninety five Bulls. You know,
It's like it's it's like watching thetwenty twelve heat you know, like you
(16:49):
have like they're all A listers.All these people have had defining cultural moments
on the Broadway stage, and it'sjust, you know, I was just
thinking and the even the folks thatyou've added in season two, Titus Burgess
and Patrick Page, like, holycow, it's crazy. Yeah, the
amount of Tony's and Emmy's and Grammysthey all have. And it was kind
(17:11):
of it was easier to get themfirst season because it was right in the
middle of the pandemic, nothing elsewas happening. We were one of the
first shows to start shooting, andso then it was always a question are
they going to come back for seasontwo? But they were all so excited
because you know, this is theirchance to really show everything they can do.
And so I think that's one ofthe reasons everybody came back, because
(17:34):
because it's like they loved the showand they love doing it. They love
each other too, Like we're allon a group text and everybody's really supportive
of each other. Whenever someone accomplishessomething, there's a lot of congratulations,
so it is like a big happyfamily. I am dying to know.
You know, you write all thesesongs and they are nods and homages to
(17:57):
the songs that have come before orlike in Pippin, And how do you
make it sound like a song weall know but still make it unique?
I mean, I just I listento it and I think, oh,
that has to be like the hardestway to write music ever, Like how
do you do that? I don'tknow if it is. I mean,
(18:18):
it's not easy, for sure,but it is not you know, you've
got a model, right, butit is. It does take. It
takes some work because I don't wantit to ever be a lazy parody,
you know, I hate those thoselazy musical theater Parry's like bouncy bouncy,
and this isn't what musicals all musicalsound like. So I am pretty rigorous
(18:41):
with myself that I play through thescores on the piano first, you know,
to really get to know them.And then if I'm targeting a song,
like I really get to know thatsong. And so I want to
learn the tendencies of the composers harmonicallyand those things, so it feels like
it's a bona fide, like oh, this is a candor an EBB song
that I've never heard before, orthis is a Stephen Sondheim song that was
(19:03):
recently discovered. That's the goal,you know. And I don't know if
anyone will ever really mistake my songfor an actual one, but the goal
is will like get close to that. But it's really fun because I mean
it comes from a place of love, right. I love these songs so
much. I didn't have to doa lot of research on like the songs
from Pippin because I know them factorybefore. Well, my my tenor students
(19:30):
were already like deciding who gets tosing Aaron debates, like, oh,
Doorway to Where that was the firstsong I wrote for this season, just
sort of like I knew because youknow, because I'm such a Pippin fan.
It's like, oh, there willbe a corner of the sky.
Yeah, And it was my dreamlike maybe this because it was such the
(19:51):
big tenor audition song for like decades, I mean it, and so it's
like, yeah, so it's likemaybe this will give a I'm alta.
Oh seriously, my students were like, it's my next semester. Yeah,
the tenors are all thriving with thenew material for Aaron Tobate's characters. Because
I also think you can't Tame Meis like the best, like Billy but
(20:15):
make it tenor like it's so good. Poor Christian is like I don't know
what we're talking about. I'm diggingout. So I do have a question.
One of the amazing things about livetheater is this suspense that anything can
happen at any moment, And sohow does having all of those cameras there
(20:37):
and the ability to do things overand over again change the tension, the
process or even the consumption of whatyou're doing. You can answer that in
terms of schmigagoon or you know,we've seen some very prominent musical theater productions
now cinematized in the last few years, so like either way, but how
(20:57):
does the ability to have do overschanged the vibe? Yeah, I mean,
I will tell you, I wrotetoo big of a show for our
for the shooting schedule we had thisseason, and so it was kind of
like every day are we going tomake our day today? You know,
it was like very tough, soso the reality was we didn't always have
(21:19):
a lot of the leisure of tonsof takes. And what's also great is
like these are pros. They areused to doing eight shows a week,
and so they give you the goodson the first take almost every time.
You know, it's very rarely thatwe would have to do it again.
So it almost does feel a littlemore like live theater than it normally would.
(21:42):
And also I like to get asmuch as we can, like long
take shots for the musical numbers,see the dancers head to toe, you
know, and not have it beso much editing, although there's more of
it this season because Fosse did thata lot. You know, Bob Fosse
like choreographed for the camera, andso there are cuts that are part of
the choreography and so we wanted toemulate that as well. But it really
(22:06):
does feel like we're putting on ashow, you know, more than we're
making a TV show some days.One of the things we love about ted
Lasso is the way that it incorporatespop culture references and meta or self referential
jokes into the dialogue, kind ofby virtue of Shamiga Dune's format. You're
(22:27):
doing this almost constantly, but like, without spoiling anything, what were maybe
a couple of your very most favoritereferences that you got in. I know
you've already mentioned a couple like Cornerof the Sky had to be in.
So maybe what's some that had tobe left on the editing room floor that
you're a little bit still sad about. Yeah, I mean, first I'll
mention one that's a little more subtle, just for you know, I had
(22:51):
an idea that I wanted Cecily towear every outfit the barber strice and had
worn and funny Girl or on aclear day you can see forever, because
I really wasn't we weren't covering thosemusicals otherwise, and I thought like,
oh, sess would look really cutethese, you know, because it's a
very cute look. And so I'mreally interested to see how many people actually
(23:15):
recognize these outfits because you'll see themas they pop up and it's just like,
first of all, Cecily does lookadorable in them, but they're also
like very much of their period,and so that was really delightful for me
to give all those funny Girl andon a clear Day nods just by virtue
of the costumes. And then theone thing that I really wanted to get
(23:38):
in this season that I didn't wasn'table to was Ease On Down the Road
from The Whiz, which I lovethat song so much, it was on
my playlist. I sort of hadan idea for like how it would work,
and we just couldn't find like inthe story right in the narrative.
(24:00):
I just like I tried to shoehornit in one place, but it just
didn't work. Everything so close togetherin Chicago, like it E's On down
the Road song would last ten secondsbecause it's like it's like you go around
the corner and you're you're there.So so we weren't able to do that,
and it makes me sad because that'ssuch a fun song and also a
(24:21):
nod to the black musicals of thistime, right like Pearley in The Whiz.
And the idea was it like Keeganand and this ensemble all African American
Osamba would do the song and thenCecily would feel like, I don't feel
like I should be a place totake part in this because she felt very
uncomfortable like seeing but they're all encouragingher, but she says, I just
(24:41):
don't and maybe like, yeah,exactly her feeling like oh and so um,
so that was that's my big regretthat we weren't able to get that
in somehow. I really appreciate that, again being an edge of cater and
music theater, like the way thatyou're able to also call out things like
(25:06):
racism and sexism in this genre andthat it's still very prevalent. We still
do all these musicals, but there'sa way to be aware of that,
and so I appreciate that too,that there is you know, we're able
to make jokes, we're able tobe on this other side of them and
sort of looking back and saying thatwas problematic, like it's not okay that
(25:29):
that was the challenge this season alittle bit, because you know, these
musicals that we're dealing with were moreforward thinking and progressive and reflecting the social
change of the sixties. But oneof the ways we found they thought they
were really transgressive, you know,and so you sort of like poke fun
at that, like, oh,this none of this is shocking anymore.
And then I did really notice thatlike all these like male protague white boys
(25:53):
searching for the meaning in their life, you know, like such a narcissistic
journey, yes, getting his characterwhen he's like you're a rich white boy,
You're gonna be fine, Like it'sfine, Yeah, exactly. This
just like it's always a reflection ofthe people who are writing the shows,
(26:14):
right, and so it's like,yes, are like hero is going to
be this young guy who of courseis white, who's like trying to figure
out his life. You know,it's like nobody cares. There's a lot
more gold met a joke there toowith him like trying to start Doorway to
Wear like two more times and Ijust like gets cut off. Yeah,
(26:36):
this is it's not about you tohear that. They do. They do.
They can't say it enough well.And you mentioned this a bit ago
about like how sort of prevalent thecandor and EBB and the fossy vibes just
are throughout this season. But youdo a really good job of incorporating other
(26:57):
things. So you know, inseason one you sort of had this illusion
of cohesion kind of with like thecostuming and the set, like it all
looked very same. Same with thesecond season, there's a lot more variety
going on and diversity with the costumingand like even like where different parts of
Chicago are look very different. Andso I'm wondering since the sort of cohesion
(27:18):
and the uniformity didn't show up inthose technical areas this time, Like was
there sort of a guiding principle orlike a theme that you all as creators
lashed onto to say, like whatIshmicago and what isn't? If that makes
sense like narratively or thematically, Yeah, I mean it was kindly. That
was something we discussed a lot,like the first week or so of the
writer's room, right, like canwe get away with this? Like it's
(27:41):
a problem because I wanted to addressall these musicals but they are scattershot,
like Robert and Hammerstein and music Man, they all that all fits together.
They all shake hands and play nice. Yeah, oh for sure, yeah,
but these do not. So Butultimately we said, like, let's
just embrace it. Our audience willmake to be along for the ride and
just say like, oh, thisis fun and it doesn't have to necessarily
(28:03):
make sense, so we can callit out like Keegan has a line at
one point like it's very unclear,like what decades you're going on? Um?
And we decided to just embrace it, and that was kind of the
rule. It was funny, butlike a lot of the people in the
sets and the costumes, like theyaren't used to that sort of thing,
(28:23):
so they're constantly saying like, butwait, what time period is. It's
like when they're asking for like carsand stuff, and I just say,
like, whatever time period we wantit to be. And it was,
Yeah, it was just like hardinitially. Yeah, but it's just like
we basically divided into three sections.So we have sort of the Chicago cabaret,
(28:45):
you know, city life, Americanbig city, and then we've got
Victorian England right with like Oliver andSki, and then we've got the hippies,
right, so we have God's spelledPippin and hair, Jesus Christ superstar
in that world. And so wejust just divided Shmicagan to those three burroughs.
(29:07):
I love it, and then decidedto bounce around. And then we
thought, like the real fun isgoing to be when Josh and Melissa enter
this world and then the world startcrossing over, right, and Sally Bowles
meets Jesus. What does that mean? And so it was that sort of
it's a little like a Marvel cinematictimelines converging. Yeah, it's the musical
(29:33):
theater cinematic universe. I'm here forit. So, as I mentioned,
you are the creator, writer,songwriter of Shamika Dune, but a lot
of your work is writing for writingfor film, like actually writing scripts and
screenplays. And even though I didn'tknow it, my first exposure to your
work was when I watched the SantaClaus too. But I really came to
(29:56):
know your work when my kids,when we had kids and started watching things
like Horton, Here's a Who,The Lorax, Secret Life of Pets,
and all three of the Despicable Memovies, all of which all of our
kids adore. And yeah, yeahwe do too. Of course, of
course they're hilarious. I was alwaysthe goal to make it not torture for
parents. Yeah, and so youdo most of this with your writing partner
(30:18):
Ken Dario and y'all really seem toenjoy writing hilarious and warm family movies.
And I'm just wondering what draws youto create in that genre. I don't
know. I mean, we're bothpretty wholesome, optimistic family guys, you
know, and I have three kids. Ken has three kids there, but
I think it came from that place. But really my intention was comedy from
(30:41):
the from the get go, andthen we sort of got pulled into Horton
and that really changed our lives becauseChris Meladandre, who ran Fox at the
time and brought us in for Horton, was really happy with us, and
he immediately left to form his owncompany called Illumination, and he had I
remember we had lunch with me andKennon said, I'm forming this new company
(31:03):
and how would you like to writeall my movies there? And we said,
yeah, that sounds great, andhe pitched the idea of a villain
who has to adopt three little girls, and I said, we have to
write this. You know, thisis great. And so that's that's really
how we got pulled into animation.Initially we were just writing comedies, you
(31:25):
know, and we were there fora long time, but ultimately, you
know, it sort of wore meout. Ken is back doing it.
He actually didn't want to be involvedin in Schmigadoon much. He did.
Really, the TV world didn't interesthim. It wasn't his thing. So
he's back at Illumination now working therewhere he's most comfortable, and I was
(31:45):
like, I was ready to dosomething a little more adult, a little
more mature, you know. Ithink Schmigadoon is still I don't know PG.
Eleven, PG twelve, Family.I'd say it's in that zone,
but it's just a little more grownup in this icle. Me. Your
faith is important to you. Youand Ken both both grew up in the
(32:07):
Mormon Church, and you have madesome incorporated some religious references into your work,
which is something that we also tendto see in ted Lasso. Do
you have any particularly favorite spiritual orlike church, religiosity, history, Easter
(32:27):
eggs that you have hidden in anyof your projects? Um? I mean,
I don't know if they're they're hidden, but it's all there, you
know. For me, it's allabout love, right, Like That's the
older I get, the more Ifeel like this whole life is just make
people feel loved, you know,and that's that's how you define success.
How many people did you make feelloved? And so so there's I really
(32:52):
wanted to, you know, MildredLayton, Christian's character in season one is
like bad church lady, right,you know, and you know those of
us who attend church I've all experiencedthat woman. I based her very closely
to someone I know, but Ialso really wanted her husband to be like
a good you know Fred Armison's character, like, oh, he's a good
(33:15):
Like I hate when just like religionor Christianity or whatever, it is just
portrayed in one way, you know, as this monolith and it's a very
negative the judgmental side, which likeis you know, is there. But
I also wanted like to say,Oh, there's this sweet minister and he's
going to share something from the scripturesabout love. It's going to teach Josh
(33:36):
something about love and how he needsto grow. And so that was like
sort of a very earnest moment butwas really important to me. And there's
there's some subtle like for those whoknow their Bible and Christianity, Like at
the very end of our season,there's some parallels to the Garden of Eden.
(33:59):
I would say, um, butit's that's very subtile, but I
was aware of it, and Ithought of it in that light, you
know. Um, but I thinkit's also like ted Lasso, you know,
has this very when you call likea Christian way of seeing that it's
like a non believing non practicing Christianor just like elevating love as as like
(34:23):
the ideal and forgiveness and all thosesort of things that I think is why
so many people gravitate to it.You know, it's sort of this more
sort of I don't know, callit progressive Christianity, whatever you'd call it,
but just like with with Love atthe center, Yeah, you could
(34:44):
tell that in the bones of theshow, there's somebody that grew up high
Church at least one person, becauseyeah, yeah, there are like enough
references both in structure and in substancethat like that doesn't hop in backs.
But then at the same time,you're not going to find a lot of
churches having ted Lasso watch parties,and so like maybe that is well,
(35:07):
that's the language, right, that'sgot a barrier for a lot of the
churchgoers. It would be in mychurch too, you know, there's like
sure, no, it's it's scaryall those affords, So take a dune
where it's safer. We don't haveany of those there. One of my
favorite overtu like the parable with theSheep, Oh my gosh, if Sunday
(35:31):
School was like that, I meanI would still go to Sunday School.
Yeah, that was That was likeJulie Klausner wrote that episode and and I
assigned it to her because I madeher watch God's Spell, which she had
never seen the movie, and shehated it. She was like torture for
(35:52):
her, where I just I knowit's very of its time, but I
find it delightful and really fun still, you know. And and I've seen
many productions of God's Spell and Ienjoy them all. I love it.
But for her it was just likewhat is this? This is a nightmare?
So I had her right, likethe worst version of a parable they
(36:13):
would, you know, make Keegan'scharacter want to kill himself. We've talked
quite a bit about your songwriting andcreative process for Schmigadon and Chicago. I'm
just as a fun question if youhad the opportunity to score a musical or
maybe a musical number for some ofthe characters in ted Lasso, Like,
what style or genre or time perioddo you think you'd be most likely to
(36:34):
draw from or maybe just paint usa picture of where you'd start. Wow?
Yeah, I mean Bill Lawrence andI are Twitter friends now, you
know, and I think he knowsthat like, if they make Ted Lasso
into musical, I'm the one they'dbetter call because I would I would love
to do that. I mean,I feel like it's music Man, you
know. I think that would bethe palette for the music somehow. Now
(37:00):
I feel like it's just like ithas that earnestness and that you know,
and Ted has those small iowa thosevalues you know, and so it feels
like it would be the music.Maybe it's like music Man enters, like
what British musical, but it wouldn'tbe like Phantom or any of those.
(37:22):
It would be like Oliver. Therewe go, the music Man crossed with
Oliver. That would be the heartof it, right because the team is
like all the Oliver's was like Fagins, Fagans, Little Boys. Yeah,
there we go. I know thatBrett is a huge fan of the show
(37:42):
Scrubs also a Bill Lawrence show,and Scrubs has the very famous musical episode,
and so yeah, there's always beenthis deeplonging for a Ted Lasso musical
episode, which we've like seen nolike heard no smoke around, so we're
not really like holding our breaths thatthat's going to happen. But we can
dare to dream. Yeah, yeah, I'm just putting it out there.
(38:04):
Yeah, I'll be great your lipsto God's ears. Yeah, you have
to ask your question that you havehere that you've been dying to ask.
Oh no, it's okay. No, I want you to please do it
for me, for you, yes, do it for your wife. Okay,
I'm obligeted to do this because Marrisasked me too. Obviously, you
can't reveal anything. I don't evenknow if we have any news about a
(38:27):
potential season three or what's happening.Obviously, I am like hoping and praying
for one because I want this torun for as long as possible. But
um, if I were to rightnow just like call or suggest Leishmiz as
like the third season's name, Like, if that comes to pass, could
you just name a random character afterone of us, just as a like
anage to this conversation. Suret subtle? Yeah, so be on the look
(39:00):
out. Okay, Season three laishViz the lead character Brett val Brett played
by arn Oh well yeah yeah,I would actually pass away, but so
I wouldn't get to see it,but at least I could maybe see it
from the Afterlife. Yeah yeah,well, Sinko, thank you so much
for your time. This has beenso much fun. Obviously, we want
(39:22):
everyone to go and check out SchmigaDune season two, Akash Michago, tell
your music theater loving friends and eventhose who don't, because as we've seen,
even even the Josh's can learn tolove Schmiga Dune. So true.
Yes, thank you so much forhaving me. It's been a blast great
thanks, take care all right,howe bye and that's our show. We
(39:50):
had a blast chatting with Sinko Paulabout ted Lasso and Schmiga Dune. You
can find links to Sinko social media, the trailers for Schmiga Dune and Schicago,
as well as everything else we discussedin the show notes for this episode
on our website at ted lassopod dotcom. We'll be back soon with more
ted Lasso goodness, but you cankeep the conversation going with us on Twitter
and Instagram in the meantime. Ourhandle on both platforms is at ted Lasso
(40:15):
Pod. This episode of Richmond TillWe Die is brought to you by Jen
and Kerosene Productions. It was producedby me Brett as well as my co
hosts Marissa and Christian. If you'reenjoying the podcast, please take thirty seconds
to subscribe to our feed and givethe show a five star review on Apple
Podcasts or a five star rating onSpotify. Heck, if you're feeling generous,
you could even do both. Asalways, we appreciate all the ways
(40:37):
y'all share your love and support forthe pod. All right, y'all,
I'm Brett signing off for Christian,Marissa, and sinco Paul. Thanks for
listening. Until next time, Cheersy'all,
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