The Cleveland Strangler Pt. Two Ft. How to Spot a Killer

Episode Transcript
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(00:06):
Riddle Me That is a true crimepodcast that deals with adult themes. Some
episodes explore disturbing topics such as murder, abuse, sexual violence, drug abuse,
suicide, and self harm. Pleaselisten at your own risk. Theories
discussed in episodes may not be theopinion of the host. Welcome back to

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part two of my coverage on theCleveland strangler Anthony so Well, Bri,
I'm again joined by Lynette from Howto Spot a Killer. Let's get into
it, okay, Joel So.In the full of two thousand and five,
Anthony meets this woman named Laurie.Interestingly enough, Laurie is the niece
of the newly elected mayor of Clevelandin the full of two thousand and five,

(00:51):
and so she's standing by a busstop and he's standing there. She
had actually been struggling with addiction forvery long time, like many people in
the community. But she was intriguedby Anthony. As we know, he
was attractive, he's handsome, he'syoung, he looks successful, and so
she's drawn to him, and he'sdrawn to her, and so they strike

(01:11):
up a conversation. At this point, Anthony was still fairly sober. He
wasn't using as much as Laurie was. He was sampling, but you know,
we would say he wasn't necessarily addictedto drugs. And so they spent
the night together at Anthony's stepmom's place, and by you know this point,
within the next couple of weeks,they're spending every single night together. They're

(01:34):
spending so much time together. Heseems devoted to her. And about a
year goes by where Anthony is spendingtime with this girl, Laurie starts to
see him kind of spiral a littlebit during this year when he had previously
started off, you know, lovingher, spending time with her, focused
on her. He's working, he'staking care of her, and Laurie,

(01:55):
as a drug user, was happyto be in a relationship with someone who
was not a heavy drug user,you know, someone who she enjoys spending
time with, who could help herstrive to be drug free and sober.
But by June of two thousand andsix, Anthony starts paying rent to his
stepmom as he had previously been doing. She's trying to kick him out and
he becomes a drug user. Heactually starts smoking crack and Laura is devastated

(02:19):
during this time as Anthony starts spiralingeven further and further into drug use and
into addiction. He starts having alot of people over. There was a
family initially renting the second floor ofthe house on Imperial Avenue. Anthony was
on the third floor, his stepmomwas on the first floor. But due
to all of the drug activities thatwere going on, he ends up basically

(02:40):
forcing this family off the second floor. They just couldn't live there anymore.
And this is just a horrible situationbecause now you've got a whole area separating
what he was doing upstairs and whatthe stepmother was aware of downstairs. And
during this time an Imperial Avenue,we have several devastating, horrifying disappearances in

(03:04):
this area of Imperial Avenue. SoMay of two thousand and seven, which
is Mother's Day, thirty five,woman named Crystal Dozer, who was actually
a close friend of Laurie's, justdoesn't come home, you know, and
Mother's Day specifically, when someone's gotchildren, you would expect them to spend
time with the loved ones, andso it was really concerning to her family
that on Mother's Day, after chattingwith her daughter, Crystal is never heard

(03:30):
from again, and so around thistime as well. So I stated that
this is around May of two thousandand seven, Laurie, who is Anthony's
girlfriend, starts noticing a bad smell. And we're not talking about like,
you know, just a light littletrash is going bad type of smell.
This is the smell of decay andit's permeating, permeating. Joels this house

(03:52):
at twelve two or five Imperial,and this smell was something that Laurie said
was something she'd never smelled before.It was just so different, so distinct,
and I think so few of ushave ever been around the smell that
you will later learn you know aboutin this case. I'm sure some of
your listeners are aware of where I'mgoing with this, but it's such a
distinct smell, the smell of decay. And Laurie approaches him about it,

(04:15):
and she's like, Hey, whatis up? What's up with this nasty
smell in your house? And Anthonyblames it on his stepmom who's downstairs.
He's like, you know, herorgans are failing, she's sick, she's
ill. It's just her inability totake care of herself. That's where the
smell's coming from and so Laurie hadno reason to, you know, not
trust him. The stepmom downstairs,I had a nephew. When he asked

(04:39):
Anthony about this weird smell coming fromthe house, Anthony said, well,
there's a flooded basement. Come on, it's don't worry, it's nothing serious.
There's just the smell of you know, the water and everything, just
cos I know, just craziness,craziness. Blooded basement does not smell like
decay. Granted I've never smelled thesmell of human decay, but I've walked

(05:00):
past an animal that's dying or that'sdead, and there's quite the smell.
And it certainly does not smell likea flooded basement, which I've had.
And it does stink, but notin the same way exactly. And what's
so shocking this was just the combination. I mean, it was just a
mistake, a huge mistake waiting tohappen in this neighborhood because other people Joel's

(05:21):
the smell was so strong that peopleoutside of this house were smelling it.
People in that neighborhood were smelling thisdecaying, weird smell, and they were
bothered by it enough that you know, they started getting other county officials involved,
and actually most people in that neighborhoodand if your listeners get a chance
to, they should google twelve twoor five Imperial later for reasons that we

(05:45):
will discuss. That home no longerexists, it was destroyed, but next
door there was raised sausage shop.It was the Settle shop next to the
Sowa house that sold meats, cheeses, sausages obviously, and so people just
said, well, this smell,the smell of decaying, rotten meat has
to be coming from that house.And so I think this is also a

(06:06):
huge part of the reason why Anthonywas able to get away with all of
these excuses, because people in thatcommunity might have investigated further if there hadn't
been a meat basically a meat factoryright next to the house where that decay
was coming from. It's just sosad too for this poor small business as
well that's getting associated with And I'myou know, I'm sure you're going to

(06:27):
speak about all the different things thatthey had to go through in order to
try to get rid of this smellwhich is being blamed on them. But
yet at the same time, thepolice have to be very aware of Anthony
so well and all of his activities, even though they can't bring charges on
these different complaints from I'm sure someof the women, they know what he's
up to. So it's strange thatat some point nobody, I guess it's

(06:51):
just underfunding and maybe nobody's looking thatclosely. And also the fact that he
was now a lower offender, therewas no reason for them to think that
he was still committing any types ofcrimes that could potentially result in the small
of rotting. You know, thiswas just accumulation of everything bad that could
have happened in this situation, allthe bad things that could have happened,

(07:13):
because I think that if he wouldhave been a higher ranked offender, if
the police had been rightfully funded,if the sausage factory potentially wasn't there and
receiving the blame, this could havebeen stopped sooner. You know. There
were so many awful things that werehappening, and unfortunately this didn't end in
the time of two thousand and sevenwhen Anthony SAA was living in Cleveland.
This continues to happen where people ableto get away with horrible things just because

(07:36):
it's just the right amount of chaosat the right amount of time, and
someone takes advantage of the bad thingshappening. In that instance, Terrible Well
said, well, as you know, Josi, I am going to talk
about that poor victim, that poorbusiness, which also ended up being a
victim, because in two thousand andseven, the health department ends up getting
reports from a consoleman that residents aresaying that the small like a dead body

(08:00):
in the street, and Joel's ifit smells like a dead body, I'm
going to assume that there's a deadboy. It's like if you see a
mannequin, just don't assume it's amannequin, assume that, in all probability
it could be a deceased human beingone hundred percent. I wish people would
have trusted their guts, or ifthey would have just said, you know,
rather than kind of doubting yourself,like it smells like something's dead,

(08:22):
maybe something's dead, and maybe someone'sdead. Instead. Race Sausage spent twenty
thousand more than twenty thousand dollars onupdated events exhaust systems over four years,
and guess what, that smell didn'tgo away. I wish police investigators would
have gone to Ray Sausage Shop afterthose improvements and realize that, okay,

(08:43):
this can't be the cause of thesmell. I don't know what was going
on there, but it was theperfect storm for Anthony. And so Anthony
and Laurie are also in their ownlittle chaos because they're now you know,
there's domestic violence involved. Whenever youhave drugs involved as well, sometimes people
don't act rationally. And Anthony wasalready very much a disturbed individual, and

(09:05):
you have an individual who's now underthe influence all the time. There were
physical drug field altercations between him andLaurie, who was someone who he had
adored. And so this also goesback to what we're saying about women not
being able to save a man.Even if Lorie had been sober during that
time, this guy adored her,and yet he was still harmful to her,
and he was still hurting her.Fortunately, she was not one of

(09:26):
the victims that we're about to talkabout, but in her own way,
she was a victim of Anthony becauseyou know, she was a victim of
domestic violence. She's probably still hauntedby the cases that we're about to discuss.
Can you imagine though, what beingin a relationship with Anthony so well,
even if he says that he quoteunquote loved you, however capable of
love this man is or was onlyhe can really attest to that. I

(09:48):
just think that whatever type of lovehe has, there's always going to be
that need for power and control,which we see him exert over his victims
time and time again. And thatsadistic nature of these sexually motivated attacks is
it's just it's mind boggling. Yes, And that's the thing, Joels,

(10:09):
because the worst part is people doblame Laurie for the things that happened in
that house, but people also failedto realize that she was a victim.
She was being manipulated. He wasn'texposing her and telling her, Hey,
this is what I'm doing. I'mkilling people, I'm hurting people, I'm
raping women like he was trying tokeep Laurie for some sense of normalcy,
which we've seen even with BTK andother criminals who still have some semblance of

(10:31):
a family life. They try tolive normally while still fulfilling those dark desires
and fantasies. And so Laurie wasa victim as well. They maybe she
should have trusted something in her gut. But when you're in love with someone,
when you have a partner, someonewho spend every second with I am
sure to this day she's probably stillthinking about, like, what did I

(10:52):
miss? How did I miss thesesigns? How did I let this continue
to happen for so long? Becauseyou know, these guys manipulate the people
who were closest to them. Theydon't want to be caught, And so
Laurie couldn't have stopped this guy.He was going to do what he was
going to do, and he wasgoing to try and get away with it
for as long as he could.And so I hope people remember that.

(11:13):
I think that's something where it's easyfor somebody's mind to jump to, Well,
she was in the home, sheknew what was going on. Why
didn't she intervene and do something?But the reality is that this is somebody
who's likely well under the control ina domestic violence situation and isn't in a
position to be able to intervene ina meaningful way to help these women because
she herself needs help exactly, andso she couldn't help. She was under

(11:37):
the influence. You know, she'sspiraling as well, and the one person
who's providing a roof over her head, who's taking care of her, who's
showing her love. Of course,she's not going to want to see the
worst in him. And so atsome point in late February of twenty and
seven, Laurie comes home and shefinds Anthony's neck torn up. I mean

(11:58):
he had even actually right before February. In early two thousand and eight,
she comes home and she actually seesblood all over the place. There's blood
coming out of Anthony's head. There'sa hole in his head, and he
tells her someone robs him. Andthen in late February of two thousand and
eight, I'm sorry, Laurie comeshome and then she finds his neck kind
of torn up, like she couldsee the white meat in his neck,

(12:20):
and he just tells her all Iwas attacked. And so you know,
this is someone who's seeing unhealthy behaviorsomeone, but she's not thinking the worst.
She's potentially also seeing him as avictim. But she knows something is
off because there's this haunting, weirdsmile. Anthony's smiling like it, and
Laurie feels like he's lying to her, but she doesn't know. She doesn't
have the proof that he's lying.You know, it's so disgusting that this

(12:43):
smell has literally permeated his skin andit's on his hands, and he now
smells like death and decay. It'sjust so unsettling. And the fact that
we know this guy's a sleeper,the fact that he was probably still fast
asleep, still sleeping through all ofthis, sleeping with the smell, you
know, because if it was strongfor everyone else in the neighborhood Jewels,

(13:05):
you can only imagine your eyes wouldprobably water from how strong this small must
have been in his room, youknow. Awful, awful, And so
this is just a very sick andlike we said, we know that he
was diagnosed, but probably misdiagnosed.But this is definitely a sociopath. This
is a psychopath. This is someonewho's completely disconnected from reality because as long
as he's getting what he wants,he doesn't care about his own living situation

(13:28):
and the situations of other people aroundhim. So Laurie continues to know that
something's wrong, but she doesn't haveevidence of that. By May of two
thousand and eight, now we know, as we stayed earlier, jewels that
there was a missing woman back intwo thousand and seven Crystal, and then
now in May of two thousand andeight, there is a thirty year old

(13:48):
woman named to Shauna Culver. Shehad actually been in prison for a period
of time, and what people mightnot know is that she was on a
work release program, which means,you know, you're still kind of in
the system. You are definitely stillin the system, but you're allowed to
kind of re enter society and communityand work and come back, and so
you're technically within the prison system.Work release doesn't mean that you're out free.

(14:11):
You still have to report back andif you don't, that means you've
escaped, and so there's a warrantissued for you. So on May twenty
first, Tashauna doesn't come back toher work release program after work, and
so she was charged with escape anda warrant was issued. But no one
had ever seen her. No oneheard from her again after that date,
and she wasn't reported missing. Peoplejust assumed, Okay, so the scroll

(14:33):
escaped, she's out on the run. She's got away with it. You
know, I had a lot ofpeople who are charged with escape who cut
through their ankle monitor and we neverheard from them again or until someone spotted
them. So this was the issuewith Tashauna and why she wasn't reported missing.
In two thousand and eight as well, around the same time that Tashauna
is missing, there's another woman namedLashawn DeLong and she's twenty three years old.

(14:56):
She's a mother of three. Sheactually, like all the other women
I just mentioned, was living inan apartment near Imperial Avenue and she was
actually spitting distance from Anthony's house.And this beautiful woman had been in trouble
with the law. Unfortunately, she'dbeen using drugs, but she had a
father and a family that cared abouther. Unfortunately, like so many people
who do go missing and aren't reportedmissing due to her drug use, Lashonda

(15:22):
kind of disappeared every now and thenfor a few months and would reappear and
then her family would hear from her. No, she was doing well,
but then it was a continual cycle. So we can't blame families for seeing
their family member leave for a coupleof months and not hearing from them and
not reporting the missing when this isa part of the you know, it's
kind of a part of their routine. It's the life of a drug use
or unfortunately, she was just outdoing her thing, and so when she's

(15:45):
never seen or heard from again,no one reports her missing either. That's
so sad to think that this humanbeing, that her absence wasn't marked enough
in the minds of those close toher or in the minds of anybody else,
that anybody bothered her port her missing. Yes, awful, this is
I think you'll see a huge partof the reason why Anthony was able to

(16:06):
get away with what he was doingfor so long. So this poor girl,
Ashanda Long is missing. No oneknows where she's at, and her
father and her other relatives took careof her kids, and so life just
went on without her. In Augustof two thousand and eight, Anthony's stepmom
doesn't return to the house she hada kidney transplant or assuming she's smelling the

(16:26):
decay in the house as well,So this is not a healthy environment for
her. And now you imagine thatAnthony has three floors to do whatever horrible
stuff he's doing in without any typeof supervision, without anyone to question him.
And so sometime in September of twothousand and eight, you know,
he's not having more people stop by. He has a twenty four year old

(16:47):
named Vanessa Gay that he encounters.I was around ten pm in September.
Anthony was on the phone, and, you know, as a manipulator would,
He's on the phone kind of complainingabout how I don't have anyone to
celebrate my birthday. It's my birthday. And so Vanessa's a wonderful kind woman.
She sees this guy again. It'sa neighborhood that's fairly close. People

(17:07):
know one another, and so shetells him that she wants to celebrate his
birthday with him, you know,like happy birthday. This is a part
of who she is. I celebrateBirthday's happy birthday to you. And so
Anthony takes advantage of that. Hecomes up to her. They start talking.
He says, Lesson, I wantto party with you. I've got
some crack and some alcohol at myplace. How about you come back to
my place and let's enjoy ourselves.So Vanessa agrees to go with him.

(17:30):
You know, she feels safe enough. You know, who's going to hurt
me when I'm being kind to them? When I'm going out of my way
to help someone escape from their lonelinesson their own birthday. And so Vanessa
gets up to this house. Andthose who've seen the pictures of twelve two
or five Imperial know that she seesa black sign on the portrayling it says
the so well, so we knowthat she knows the house she's at.

(17:52):
This is the house she walks into. She walks upstairs to Anthony, to
the third floor. It's dirty,it's dark. Anthony's bedroom has a little
refrigerator in the corner, the curtainscovering the windows, it's i mean pitch
black. And there she couldn't evensee outside to know where she was,
as far as the fact that hiswindow was right across from where raised sausage
is facing. So Anthony produces somecrack. He asked Vanessa for a stem,

(18:15):
which is what's used to you know, the pipe that's used to smoke
crack. She gives it to him. And what's so insane Joel's is he
hits the crack, He smokes itright, but then out of no way,
he turns around and he punches herso hard in the face, I
mean, just out of nowhere.This went from a little celebration of his
birthday to him just completely going fromzero to one hundred. He didn't even

(18:37):
pretend that they were there to smoketogether. He just beat her immediately.
It's so strange. It's like aswitch is flipped in him. It's like
Doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde. Itfeels like he doesn't even have the intention
necessarily when he starts to attack awoman. It seems like he just kind
of maybe wants to go in party. In some of these instances. Yes,
this was his territory, you knowwhat I mean. Yeah, it

(19:00):
just escalates to this point and itfeels unplanned, like some compulsion takes over
him and he just acts it out. He can't stop himself. Yes,
And you know what's so crazy,Jewels, is You've got an individual who
it's like a spider in a web. Right, He's sitting in this spider's
web. He's going to try andentice his prey so that they can come

(19:22):
close enough that once he has themin his little lair and they wrapped around
and they caught, he knows thatthey can't escape, so he doesn't have
to pretend to be kind anymore.The mask has gone, The manipulator's mask
has gone. She's in his home. She's on the third floor. He
knows he has her, He's donethis enough times. Then he knows there's
no escape. He's got her inhis grasp. And so that was it.

(19:42):
Like he didn't have to give herthe crack to try and help her
get comfortable. He had her inhis lair. All he had to do
now was do what he wanted todo, which was to humiliate and break
her. And so, like hismother had done, as he'd seen as
he was growing up, he toldher to take her clothes off, and
you know, he's losing it.He starts to talking about his girlfriend,
who was in all his ex girlfriend, Laurie, because around the time that

(20:03):
his stepmom had moved out, Lauriehad moved out too. She was done,
she was done with the abuse.And so he's ranting to this random
girl who'd come there to celebrate withhim about his girl and how women take
advantage of him when he's smoking cragand you know, he looks at the
skirl chillingly and let's think back tomom, that's Sockwall's case, who looks
back at her and he says,you don't deserve what I'm about to do

(20:26):
to you. Yikes. That's likethe closest thing to a self awareness that
I think we've seen from Anthony sowell so far. Actually telling a victim
that she doesn't deserve the atrocities thathe's about to inflict upon her. It's
really strange. I mean, that'sa moment where you get this flicker of
humanity, but it doesn't last forvery long, not at all. Very

(20:49):
chilling, jewels extremely chilling. Thisis a disturbed individual, and he's aware
of what he's doing. This isnot someone who's not in his right mind.
The fact that he said you don'tdeserve what I'm about to do with
you means that was planned. Itwas premeditated. He knew how sick and
depraved he was, and he stilldid it. So Anthony rapes and beats
Vanessa Gay repeatedly after that she hadmet him around ten pm ten thirty pm

(21:11):
the night before. He was rapingher for hours because by the time daylight
comes, Vanessa is aware that thesun's up and she needs to use the
bathroom, and so Anthony looks ather. He doesn't care. Obviously,
this is his lair. Again,he feels secure enough that this is his
space and so he tells her wherethe bathroom is, so Vanessa wanders down

(21:33):
to the bathroom, which is onedoor away from the bedroom. It's to
the right. The morning light isfiltering into this whole way as Vanessa walks
to the next room, and asshe's entering the room across the hole from
Anthony's bedroom, she sees something wrappedin plastic. So what she sees is
the plastic pulled up to where Vanessarealizes that she's looking at a dead body,

(21:57):
a body without a head that's attachedto it. That body was propped
up sitting on the floor. Imagineyour worst possible nightmare, one of the
worst things you could ever imagine.I imagine this. You're walking after significant
assault beatings, you're with a stranger, you're in this weird smelling house,
and you see this body propped up. It is you cannot imagine what was

(22:18):
going through this girl's head. I'msure she saw herself in that body and
assume that she was going to bethat next victim would be sitting propped up
in Anthony's bathroom. The fear thatthese women had inflicted upon them is just
it's crazy. I can't even imaginewhat you would feel after experiencing such a
brutal assault and then to see adead body, and of course your mind's

(22:41):
going to jump to I better keepit together. I better not show exactly
how I'm feeling, because if Ido, that's going to be me.
Jules. And you keep hitting thenail on the head here, lady,
because you're right. Like we said, we hope Malvett was disassociating and just
doing whatever she needed to do tosurvive. We hope and we will see
that Vanessa Gay did whatever she neededto do to survive. She did not

(23:03):
allow herself to lose it, becauseyou cannot get into the frame of mind
you need to be to escape thistype of individual if you are losing it,
if you give up. And sothat's what Vanessa did. She comes
back to the bathroom and she looksat Anthony, and you know, Anthony
tells her that he's worried that shewas going to tell the police about the
rape. Vanessa puts on her gameface and she says, what's there to

(23:29):
tell? And remember what we said, you need to say whatever you need
to say, do whatever you needto do, whether it's a lie or
not. To get out of thatsituation, and that's what she did.
And so she promises Anthony that she'llcome back in a few days because he
says, hey, I'd like tosee you again, and she's said,
of course, there's nothing to tell. I'm not interested in telling the police.
And so Vanessa, thanks to smartthinking, thanks to the will to
survive, walks out of twelve twoor five Imperial Avenue after an hours,

(23:53):
hours long assault and seeing a deadbody. You know, she managed to
walk out of that house, andyou know, she's not even thinking about
the police at this point, Jewels, she walks over to her friend's house
and she sleeps for three days straight. This woman was exhausted from this assault.
She sleeps for three days straight andthen finally calls the police. Oh
my gosh. It's so sad becauseat this point, you know, the

(24:18):
rape kit you're not going to necessarilyget, which you would have three days
prior, so a lot of thatevidence that's on her body. But I
can understand just the sheer exhaustion.You know, she's been doing drugs,
She's endured an incredibly, incredibly impactfultrauma that would just be feeling in every
single cell of her body. SoI can understand just crashing for a few

(24:41):
days. Oh my gosh, totally, this was a lot. This was
trauma on another level. And alsothe shock I imagine that also had a
part to play in that exhaustion,that shock of seeing a body without a
head, a decapitated body. Ithink all of that was a combination that
like just kind of put her intothis state of complete almost like a Comatos

(25:04):
stays. She was just so done, and so she finally wakes up.
She calls the police, and shetells them that she needs to tell them
about a crime that took place.Unfortunately for her, the police are like,
hey, and we talked about thesensitivity of police departments and how we
need that kind of sensitivity to victimsof sexual assault. But they tell her,

(25:26):
Nope, you need to come in. You can't give this report over
the phone. We need you tocome in. And of course this girl
is like, I can barely keepmy eyes open. I just want to
tell you what happened. So ratherthan going to the police, Vanessa and
you know, we can't blame herfor it, but she felt discouraged,
She didn't trust the police. Shefelt filled by them, you know,
in other instances before, so shedoesn't go to report the rape, will

(25:47):
make a report to them in person, and she decides to move on with
her life. And she does attemptto move on until a year later when
she sees Anthony Sowell's picture in thenewspaper. So at this time two thousand
and eight, it's October, there'sa woman, a forty five year old
named Michelle Mason, who suddenly stopsusing one thousand dollars of Social Services money

(26:08):
that was deposited into account. Andit was during this time that you know,
her son was kind of looking atthis and thinking, well, this
is unusual, this is weird thatmy mom isn't like depositing her checks,
she's not using her money, andso he contacts Social Services and says,
hey, something's wrong. Stop sendingthis money here. You know, my
mom is not touching the money inher bank account. And by the way,

(26:30):
Michelle Mason was another woman who bytwenty one had two kids. Hers
is a sad story because she'd actuallycontracted HIV after sharing a needle with some
heroin addicts, some fellow heroin addicts, and so she was just I mean,
there were so many reasons for herto want to escape, and so,
in addition to being an individual whocontracted HIV by sharing a needle,

(26:55):
she'd actually been shot previously at anearby garage. She'd actually escaped death by
dragging herself to go and find help, and she had a glass eye as
a result. So this woman hada very difficult life. She was a
survivor. But obviously her children knewthat their strong mom had to have had
something, you know, terrible happenedto her if she was not using the

(27:18):
money, if she was not payingthe bills. But you know, nothing
could be done. No one sawher, no one heard for her again
in some time an October of twothousand and eight, only a month after
that jewel. Since the morning ofNovember tenth, two thousand and eight,
there is a thirty five year oldmother of three named Tanya Carmichael, and
she goes over to her mom's house. She wants to borrow twenty bucks because

(27:38):
she claims that she wants to useit for her boyfriend's truck. Her mother
knew that she was a drug addict, She was a drug user, and
so you know, she was awarethat this was a lie, it was
a cover up, but she didn'twant. As so many people know who've
been exposed to drug abuse drug addiction, if you don't give that person the
money that they need, they'll findit elsewhere, they'll steal. These are

(27:59):
actions that are out of their control. And so her mother ended up giving
her the money and she watches herdaughter drive off. She does not see
or hear from her daughter for fortyeight hours, and so she knows something
is wrong because they're close. Soshe walks over the police station and the
police are like, well, she'llshow up whenever she finished a smoking crack.
And this is heartbreaking because we knowthat in some police departments people don't

(28:23):
take missing persons reports seriously when itinvolves a drug user, you know,
like the other victim that we talkedabout, they had disappear for certain days.
But this should not discourage the familymembers and friends of drug users from
reporting the family member missing. Ifthey end up being found in an alley.
At least they found alive. Butyou can't not report the missing just

(28:44):
out or the fear of how thepolice are going to react. And so
this mother was relentless. She walksaround, she tries to find her daughter,
and about six miles away from AnthonySowell's house. People had identified this
truck, and so they told TanyaCarmichael's mom that, hey, we saw
your daughter in this area of Imperialand lo and behold, that's where the

(29:06):
pickup truck is found. And soat that point, because now we have
a random vehicle, police did endup taking the second report seriously and there
was a missing person's report filed.Now a month after that, Jewels,
we have another woman named Gladys Wade. And you're gonna love Gladys because this
is a forty year old woman who'sbeen released from jail. You know,

(29:27):
she's been out of jail for abouttwo weeks, and she's heading over to
her sister's house to pick up someclothes. Her sister actually lived near Imperial,
and so she picks up her clothesand she decides that, you know,
I think around this time is closeto Christmas, she decides that she
wants to pick up a couple ofcigarettes and a beer, which she does.
She pops them in this little grocerybag with the clothes that she picked

(29:48):
up from her sister's house. Whileshe's walking towards the bus station to head
home Anthony, the constant abuser,the individual who's always looking for someone vulnerable
to take advantage of, walks uphere and says, maybe Christmas, do
you want to come and drink somebeer with me? And remember what we
said better to be rude than dead. Gladys Wade looks at him and she
says, no, thank you,I have my own and she keeps walking.

(30:10):
Now Anthony, being incapable of takingno for an answer, continues to
approach her. As she's walking away. He runs up to her from behind,
pulls his forearm across her throat,cuts off her air, preventing her
from screaming, and he drags herup the hill towards his home, takes
her upstairs before everything goes black forGladys. And so she wakes up.

(30:33):
And this is an interesting case becausei'mlike, you know, some of the
other individuals who did willingly go upin there, we now know we cannot
victim blame because this was a womanwho said no, she didn't want anything
to do with Anthony, soa andhe still took her, you know.
And so she wakes up. Herthroat is robbing, she can barely talk
because he managed to put enough forceon her throat that he'd injured her vocal

(30:56):
cords, and so as she wakesup, she tries to scream in the
little noise that she's able to makemakes Anthony aware that obviously she's up,
and he charges over to her andhe begins punching her in the face,
continually, just punching her as hardas he could in the face, and
like his mom had done to hisnieces, he tells her to take her

(31:18):
clothes off. Now I'm a tinyperson, joels, I look like a
Toddler's joke. I look like atoddler, And so, you know,
I can only imagine how difficult thismust have been. The story is going
to surprise so many people were listeningbecause Ladys wasn't a large woman. She's
five foot seven, she's one hundredand fifty pounds, and she is laying
there as this guy is just pummelingher. But she's a fighter, and

(31:41):
there is a fight that came outof her that can only be described as
a will to live, right,a will to survive, And so she
decides that she's not going to letthis guy take her life without a fight,
and so she starts to fight back. She grabs his balls as hard
as she can. She pulls athis arm and she's starting to I mean,
she's giving him the fight of hislife as well. Right, So

(32:04):
she's screaming for help, and atthis time, again we know Anthony's a
chilling guy. So she's fighting backand Anthony keeps beating her. She's screaming.
Anthony's screaming at her, and hesays to her, you are fixing
to die. And so what hewas telling her is that your purpose here
is not to just be someone I'mgoing to please myself with. I'm going

(32:28):
to have sex with and let yougo. I'm going to rape and let
you go. He wanted her toknow that he was going to take her
life. He wanted to instill thatfear in her. You know that when
we think about the movie, itthat person who feeds off of someone's fear.
That was Anthony so well. Andso Anthony puts his hands around Gladys's
throat and they start stumbling because Gladysis still fighting. Her hand goes through

(32:51):
a plane of glass. She cutsher right thumb, and there's actually pictures
online that you can see of thesevere laceration to her right thumb. But
she's still fighting. She doesn't stop, she refuses to give up. This
blood everywhere Anthony, this big guyformer Marine Corps. Remember this is a
veteran who's continuing to beat her.But again, Gladys is grabbing this guy's

(33:13):
crotch and we know that that's asensitive body part and she was squeezing it
as hard as we could. Andshe's a fighter, and so she fights
through this until Anthony starts to gettired. He's cut as well because they've
been tumbling and breaking through glass.She's managed to tear at the skin around
his eyes with her nails. He'scut his head on the door frame.

(33:34):
I mean, this woman is notletting this guy get away with this easily.
So Gladys fights and this entire dealJewels lasts about thirty minutes and it's
now about six pm when she getsout of the house and runs across the
street. Now, as you know, there's a chicken and pizza restaurant across
the street. And it's a veryfrustrating place because this is again a place
that should have been a safe housefor victims, right. It should have

(33:58):
been a place people would have beenlike running over here, I'm getting help.
So Gladys gets to this chicken andpizza place, everyone is kind of
looking at her like she's crazy.Again, we can't be angry at this
community because there's a lot of individualsfor drug users, and so they're assuming
this is just a drug user who'sup to no good. They're thinking she's
crazy, and so they continue todo. What they're doing is she's coming

(34:20):
and crying and screaming and begging forsomeone to call the police. In fact,
people are so desensitized that someone lookedat her while they were waiting for
a food and told her that there'sa payphone outside, not even an attempt
to ask if they can call someonefor her. And the owner of this
restaurant, a guy named in fact, maybe I won't name him, but
the owner of the restaurant told herthat, you know, she needed to
get out because he didn't want herblood around the food. It's shocking.

(34:45):
Excuse me, that is really shocking. This should be a business where you
would hope that any business owner wouldtry to intervene and would try to help
a victim. I mean, Ican understand their concern for you know,
health and safety standards, but youthink the concern for this person who clearly
needs help with trump back. Yes, oh my gosh, I hope and

(35:07):
I you know, sometimes I dothink about this, Jewels, if I'm
driving a car around right and Isee someone standing in the middle of the
street, they're bleeding, if Ifeel confident enough, yes, it would
be great to be able to say, hop in the back seat. But
we've talked about the importance of safety. But at least call someone, like
you can go around the person.You're still in the safety of your car.

(35:27):
You don't have to let them in, but call the police and say,
hey, this is someone who lookslike they need help at such and
such a corner, Like don't justabandon people and let them fend for themselves.
And so you know, this ownerends up handing her a couple of
paper towels and a towel to wrapher head in, and he calls the
police. Now, Gladys was toldto leave, You wanted her to leave,

(35:49):
She just keeps standing there. Andshe continues to stand there as Anthony
walks across the street from his houseover to the restaurant. And what's so
painful for this poor woman is,after fighting for her life. Anthony comes
in, manipulative as he is,and he starts laughing with the owner and
sis, oh, my gosh,me and this girl was smoking crack when
she robbed me. And so theowner says, oh, a tone,

(36:09):
you know when they're joking around witheach other. And of course this girl
realizes that she was not safe here. This owner is going to let this
guy have her after she fought toget away from that, and so she
grabs her jacket from Anthony and sheruns. She runs as fast as she
can until at around six thirty sheruns into some Cleveland Pearl officers. She
waves them down. They see herwith the napkins around her arm, around

(36:32):
her wounds, and they call anambulance. And so as Gladys is getting
the help that she needs, policearrive at the Sowell house. They see
verification of Gladys's story because there's astruggle in the snow, this blood on
the walls, this broken glass everywhere, and when they come in contact with
Anthony's wearing the clothes that Gladys haddescribed, he was skinny, he had
a dark complexion, he had littlefacial here, and you can actually see

(36:54):
the pictures of the scratches on hisface that you know, Gladys had just
powerfully inflicted on him during her fightfor her life. And so Gladys goes
to the hospital and some detectives meetwith her, and there some detectives from
a sex crimes unit who end uptalking to her, which is a little
bit disturbing here and again, Idon't know if it was incompetence, if

(37:15):
it was an inability to understand thefacts of this case. Gladys hadn't actually
been the victim of sexual assault,he hadn't penetrated her, he'd beaten the
crap out of her. I'm surehe would have sexually assaulted her. But
when she told law enforcement, youknow, I need to speak with someone
about this attempted homicide. I wantto talk to someone about this physical assault.
You know, this battery, Thisis not as sexual. So she

(37:36):
was a little frustrated and confused bythe fact that a detective from the sex
crimes unit was talking to her.Now, while all of this is happening,
what's so aggravating to me is thatdetectives start to investigate. They meet
with the restaurant owner, they meetwith neighbors. But on December of ten
of two thousand and eight. Thatyear, the same detectives meet with an
assistant city prosecutor and they decide thatthey just isn't enough evidence to execute what

(38:00):
jewels? There was broken glass,there was blood everywhere this woman is I
mean, she's been torn to piecesand so has the defendant. How is
there not enough evidence to prosecute?It's beyond me. I will never understand
that. But this is again anotherreason why this guy was able to get
away with the things that he didfor so long. Also, Juels,

(38:21):
how do they not small that frickingsmall coming out of his house like disaster
disaster, It's ridiculous. I don'tunderstand how they couldn't smell the smell that
everybody in the neighborhood clearly could smell. And you are a prosecutor, I
think you probably know at the endof the day, a lot of prosecutors
are going to look at it like, can I get a win from this?

(38:43):
Do I think that this is goingto be a win for me?
And if it's not a slam dunk, I'm sure a lot of them,
who are very concerned with their recordaren't going to take what won't be a
slam dunk exactly. A lot ofpeople want to win, right, But
at the same time, I wonderif the discussion was, well, we
have an individual just left prison,how much can we really convince a jury
to take this woman's statement seriously?There's also the understanding that obviously you've got

(39:08):
a guy who's a low in theirminds offender. Perhaps they didn't think she'd
be willing to testify. Perhaps theyjust didn't want to deal with this case.
You know, perhaps they were overwhelmedas a police department. Who knows,
but this is the reason. Theseindividuals were part of the reason why
we have so many victims in thiscase. And you know, we were

(39:30):
just dealing with two thousand and eight, December, right, Joel's Well,
this guy leaves jail, he takesa bus back home, he cleans up,
and then he goes and gets abeer because it's almost Christmas, so
no consequences for his actions. Thefollowing year, it's January seventeen, two
thousand and nine, a woman namedKim Smith didn't return to her father's apartment

(39:50):
after going out for the night.She was actually really close with her father,
but he was aware that she hada drug problem. She'd actually been
seen in the Imperial Avenue area.She was known Candy, that was her
street name, and she'd been lookingfor drugs, was trying to party with
friends, and unfortunately, the lastperson to see her as far as her
family was concerned, was her fatherwhen he kissed her goodbye. She was
never seen or heard from again again. A couple of months later, April

(40:14):
two thousand and nine, another woman, her name was Nancy Cobbs. She
was living with her twenty seven yearold daughter in public housing. She was
forty three. She only lived threemiles away from Imperial Avenue, and she'd
spent, like many of the victimsin this case, some time in prison
for possession of crap. Her daughterreally wanted her to turn her life around,
but you know, her mom wasstill hanging on with the wrong crowd.

(40:37):
In fact, her mom had beenhanging around with this guy named Tony
Tone on Imperial Avenue and every nowand then he would stop by Nancy Cobb's
house whenever she was having people over. He would drink beer with her.
No, so she kind of consideredthis guy a friend. And so one
day, it's around five pm intwo thousand and nine, and she tells
her kids, Hey, I've gotplans. Don't worry about me, daughter,

(41:00):
I'll be back at some point later. I'm going to go and hang
out with a friend. And soshe goes. She hangs out with this
friend that no one in her familyis aware of, and later that evening
she calls her daughter just to say, hey, everything is fine. I
don't want you to worry about me. But her daughter, trusting her instinct,
knew that something was wrong, andlo and behold, Nancy Cobbs didn't
come home that night, and callsto her cell phone remained unanswered. And

(41:22):
so, like many of the otherwomen in this case, Nancy joined all
the list of missing person flyers thatwere plastered all over the Imperial Avenue neighborhood.
So at this time, you've gotmore and more women who are going
missing. You've got this series ofmissing person's posters that are littering this neighborhood.
You've also got a weird smell that'spermeating this neighborhood. And by April

(41:45):
two thousand and nine, as thisseems to be routine now for this area,
a forty seven year old mother oftwo named Damelda Hunter goes missing.
She had been seen in the ImperialAvenue neighborhood. Her son knew that she'd
been seen in that area, andso he walks over the Chicken and Pizza
restaurant, where the nah tells him, hey, I saw your mother across
the street. But again, noone knew any other more information. She

(42:07):
hadn't been seen again, and somissing posters were added as well for her.
Just a couple of weeks later,June two thousand and nine, a
thirty one year old mother of threenamed Talicia Fortson walks out to buy some
lighters. She's never seen or heardfrom again. And you know, just
a little time later after that,a woman named Janice Webb, a forty

(42:27):
eight year old woman. She's amother, she's cared about. People love
this woman, but she had aproblem. You know, she was addicted
to crack and she's walking around theImperial neighborhood looking for drugs. And this
was a woman who remained in closecontact with her sister, fortunately, and
her sister knew something was wrong whenshe hadn't heard from Janice, and so

(42:49):
she falls a missing person's report.She hadn't heard from a sister. But
again, Janice's missing person flyers joinedthe growing list of flyers that are all
over this neighborhood. No one,including law enforcement, for whatever reason,
was noticing this consistent issue of thesame demographic black women who were drug users
with criminal backgrounds that were not beingseen after entering the Imperial Avenue area.

(43:14):
They were not being seen ever again, and no one was tying it to
that weird smile as you said.Now. July of two thousand and nine,
a Warren's issued for a woman namedDiane Turner. She hadn't shown up
for probation hearing. She was twentyfour. She'd had three children, and
they were supposed to be a custodyissue, but Diane had a couple of
issues with drug use and so shewasn't able to take care of her children,

(43:36):
and so by two thousand and nine, she had two more children,
she didn't have custody of any ofthem, and she'd had a conversation with
her boyfriend, who for whatever reason, was shocked by the fact that he
hadn't heard from her for a coupleof weeks. And so Diana, just
like all the other women we talkedabout, was never seen or heard from
after going to work in this Jamaicanrestaurant, which was close to Anthony Sowell's

(43:59):
house, and she too joined thegrowing list of women who were growing missing
in Imperial Avenue. Now I've gotan interesting change of pacre for you,
Joels, because around September of twothousand and nine, we meet a woman
named Latandra Billups. So Lachandra isactually a friend of Laurie's Anthony's X.
She's thirty six years old. She'sfamiliar with Anthony, she'd procure drugs from

(44:19):
him before, and the two arefamiliar with one another. But as we've
stated in this podcast before, Anthonydoesn't have friends. He's surrounded by people
who he views as individuals of convenience. So the two sat together, they
drank beer, they smoked cigarettes,and they were just chatting and Anthony starts
to give latand bad vibes, weirdvibes because he starts to talk about his
ex Laurie. It had been sometime since the two had broken up,

(44:43):
but he starts telling Latandra that shereminds him of Laurie, and this made
her really feel uncomfortable, but notuncomfortable enough that she was going to leave.
And again we can't keep beating adead horse. But if you feel
that gut instinct to run, youknow what I mean. And so she
stays there while he leaves. Hegoes to get a little bit of wine
and he comes back and Latronda saysto him, Hey, you know,

(45:04):
Anthony, I just want to giveyou a heads up that there are people
in the neighborhood who are talking aboutthe fact that you're a rapist and you've
assaulted some girls, like this isa rumor that's moving around the neighborhood.
Instead of thanking her for talking tohim about this, he punches Latandra in
the temple. So he punches her. She's screaming, and just like his
mother had done to his nieces,he commands her to take her clothes off,

(45:29):
and as Latandra is laying on thefloor, she watches him grab a
white extension cord out of the walland he wraps it around her neck before
everything goes black. Just like someof the horrifying stories we've heard from the
survivors of anthony Sowal attacks, Latandrawoke up and she was still laying on
the floor while Anthony was watching hersitting in a chair. Now, this
is someone he actually had a connectionwith, you know, he'd known her

(45:51):
for a little while, and sohe's looking at her, and perhaps he's
assuming that she's not fully aware ofwhat took place, and so Anthon he
says to her, weirdly, Ithink I read in previous research, Jewels,
that he was surprised. I believethat he thought she was actually dead
at this time. I'd read areport that he was actually surprised when she
woke up. And so perhaps thisthrew him off because now he was in

(46:14):
the cooling off period, right,He's no longer fueled by this anger.
And so he looks at her andhe says, I'm sorry, I tore
your sweater. And she's partially dressed. He's partially dressed. You know,
she's naked obviously, but he justlooks at her and he says, I
want to kill you, and Iwant to kill myself. I know I'm
going to jail now. If wego back and we remember the story of
one of the previous victims where hesays, you don't deserve what I'm about

(46:36):
to do to you. This guyis very aware of how sick he is,
and yet he won't stop. Andso Latundra knew that she needed to
say something to save her life.Like all these other women, something is
triggered, something comes alight and her. But instead of begging, she says
to him that both of them justneeded to get some rest. She was
like, you know, retired.She knew he had raped her. She

(47:00):
could feel it right. As women, we know when we've been assaulted,
we know when someone has deprived usof that piece. And so she just
pretends everything's fine. She fights thatoff, she disassociates, and she's just
pretending to fall asleep as Anthony driftsoff behind her. In the morning,
Anthony goes he finds a sweater fromher. He apologizes to her. He
says, I have fifty dollars thatI'm going to give you for a new

(47:22):
sweater. Come by tomorrow and I'mgoing to get you high. And so
she says, yeah, yeah,sure, I'll see you. That sounds
cool. Let's do that. Shegets dressed, she calmly walks out.
She says, by to him.She leaves the front door, and she's
a bowl a mess, like sheis sobbing as she runs over to the
chicken restaurant across the street. Andbecause she knew that owner of the restaurant.

(47:46):
She walks in there and she tellsthem what Anthony had done to her.
And so this is and this isthe same owner that the same freaking
owner. So the other victim basically, oh, here's a towel. We
don't want you getting blood on thephone. Oh my gosh. I mean,
at some point, I don't knowwhat's going on. I know,
I've been in neighborhoods where gunshots ora regular occurrence. People are so desensitized

(48:09):
to that. Perhaps there's a lotof people coming in with blood. I
don't know why he was so desensitizedto this, but because fortunately he actually
knew Latundra personally, he was concernedwhen she came in, and so when
she was crying, you know,he's aware that something's wrong. And there's
this clearly already established pattern of behaviorwith women who go over to Tony's house

(48:35):
or Tone's house and then they comeover screaming, crying and bloody. So
at some point this owner has togo, Okay, maybe this isn't just
a fight between two people who areusing crack and they got into a disagreement.
This goes beyond this. How manypeople can walk into a house and
never be seen again. How manywomen can walk into a house and keep

(48:57):
running out naked, crying and bleedingbefore it hits someone. Hey, there's
something off. So red flags arenot only for people who don't want to
be victims, but for people whorecognize that they could save someone else's life.
And so this restaurant owner should havebeen responsible enough to recognize that there
was something not adding up with Tony. He was manipulative enough to give this
restaurant owner the piece said, Hey, this is just a guy who likes

(49:20):
to party and have fun, andfor whatever reason, at some point he
gets into disagreements. These women starttrying to steal from him, and he
has to try and beat them upso that he can get his money.
I don't know what happened, butclearly this again, I hate to keep
saying the words, but it wasa perfect storm for Anthony Sowell. And
this is why he was able toget away with the crimes that he was
able to. And what's so heartbreakingtoo, is the Tandra goes to the

(49:42):
emergency room. Fortunately, you know, because as you said earlier, jewels
that rape. The evidence that's availablenow for the rape kits is still fresh,
right, So she goes to meetwith a console at the hospital and
this consult tells her that they areaware of Anthony Sowell. They've been five
other women who would come in,but unfortunately it was going to be two
weeks before the sex crimes unit atthe police station would contact the Tandra.

(50:07):
That seems like a rather protracted amountof time, Does it not absolute?
Two weeks? Are you kidding me? Two weeks? If I am doing
my best to forget a situation,or if during two weeks I'm hoping that
the police are going to care.It is very possible for a victim to
kind of just shut down and say, fine, you guys don't want to
take my report. You don't wantto take this seriously, I'm moving out

(50:28):
of state and you're never going tohear from me again, and we can't
blame her. Two weeks is waytoo long. There are reports out there.
I didn't really get into an endmy podcast episode, but there are
reports out there about the person whowas responsible for the sex crimes reports and
the failure on her part. Ibelieve that this law enforcement official has passed
now, but a lot of peoplewere very angry with the handling of these

(50:50):
cases by the sex Crimes unit,because they already had a list of women
who continue to bring up Anthony Sowell'sname, and yet this police officer was
not doing anything or porising their cases. Whether it was because they were drug
users, whether it was because theyhad criminal backgrounds, whether or not it
was because they were black women,we don't know. But it was very
wrong that he was allowed to dothis for so long. And I think

(51:13):
you nailed it. You need tointervene with the victim and get their story
as quickly as possible, because everythingcan happen in two weeks. It can
make a whole world of difference.One day can make a difference, but
two weeks that person could be like, I want to move on. I
don't want anything else to happen tome or to my family. I want
to forget this, and they mightnot be willing to make a statement.

(51:35):
So for sex crimes to take twoweeks is a huge failure. Oh my
gosh, massive failure, massive failure. Jewels, they filled this woman,
and so I'm grateful that this caseends up taking a turn, as you'll
hear, but this could have endedbad be as far as the latndre wanting
absolutely nothing to do with the caseat that point. Well, now we're
still in two thousand and nine.It's late October Tuesday, October twenty and

(52:00):
a fifty one year old woman namedSean Morris was sitting at a bus stop
after drinking. She was getting high. She's kind of ready to go home.
She noticed Anthony's standing next to anATM and she recognized him as the
guy with in quotes connections. Hewas the drug guy, the guy that
could provide you know, cracked toindividuals who are need of it. So
she had some cash on her.This is solely business, right, She's

(52:21):
not looking to sleep with this guyor do anything. All she wants is
to get a high, and soshe approaches him. He agrees to hook
her up and the two start theday by drinking together. They're drinking beer,
wine, smoking crack, and theday goes by very uneventfully, which
is shocking considering what Anthony's capable of. And so around three pm, Sean

(52:42):
walks out of that house. She'sheading home to go to her husband.
She's had some fun, she's partied, but she realizes that she's about to
catch the bus that she left heridea at Anthony's house, and this is
not a house that she frequents,so she needs to get it. She
walks up to Anthony's house and shewalks up the stairs. She's going back
to the third floor to go andrechieve her ID. Now, this is
a guy she'd just been having funwith, right, But like you said

(53:05):
earlier, that switched. Something changedwhen she re entered that house because as
Anthony saw her walking down the hallway, he grabs her from behind and puts
her in a chokehold. He thensays to her, Jewels, you aren't
going home until I say you're goinghome, and then he says, if
you try to scream or run,I'll kill you. Do what I tell
you, or I'll kill you whateverI tell you to do, you better

(53:25):
say yes, sir. So somethinghad switched in this guy's mind. But
again, don't you think this islike another Doctor Jekyl and mister Hi,
the whole birthday thing. I honestlythink with that situation that it wasn't his
initial intention to be a predator.I think he was like, Okay,
I'm in a party, and thenit's just that part of him took over,
but in this scenario, I don'tthink that was his intention with her

(53:46):
in the beginning. Either he justsort of went I missed an opportunity,
or I'm going to then call theshots. I don't know what his mind
was thinking and where he went,but it seems like he just couldn't help
himself when present with the opportunity.And this is why mental health services are
so important. Obviously, I amnot empathetic towards Anthony, so I don't

(54:06):
sympathize with him. However, I'mvery aware that perhaps some kind of assistance
from the county as far as mentalhealth evaluations and services, could have helped
him listen to that voice, right, Hey, I want to party with
this girl. I have this urgencyto do some harm, but I'm going
to stifle that because I need toI want to improve. Who knows,
maybe there are people out there who'vebeen able to get that type of assistance

(54:28):
and don't act on their urges becausethey're getting help. We would wish that
for Anthony so well, for thesake the lives of people like Sean Mars
and other lives that he brutalized andthat he injured. You know, and
so like his mom, I'm goingto keep saying it like his mom told
his nieces and nephews. And Idon't blame his mom, but that's a
part of who this guy was.Right. He commanded Sean Mars to take
her clothes off and to get onthe bed. He then removes his clothes.

(54:51):
He rapes her violently, this womanwho he spent the day having fun
with and laughing and talking with.And when he was done, Sean started
to screw for help. Now Anthonyhears the screaming, and he's panicking because
obviously this is his little sanctuary,it's his little spider's web, and so
he wants to make sure that heinsulates her screams. So he jumps up.
He runs across the hallway to someopen windows in the room next to

(55:15):
his bedroom. So he's starting toclose those windows. But during his rush,
he fails to notice that there's twoopen windows in his bedroom. And
Sean sees that opportunity, and likethe intelligent woman that she is, she
jumps out of the windows. Andwhat happens is there's basically a ledge right
at the edge of the windows.She jumps up. She's got her fingers

(55:37):
on the ledge and she's hanging onbut it's a drop all the way down
those three floors to the pavement below. But she was so desperate to get
out of there that when Anthony cameand was trying to grab her arms to
pull her up, she knew whathe was going to do. He told
her what he was going to dowith her, So she pushed away from
the house and she folds three storiesdown to the alleyway and hits the pavement.

(55:58):
I know. Bone crashing was whatthat fold did to her. It
crushed her. She broke both ofher hands, she broke eight ribs,
and she had fractured her skull.Breathing was difficult for this woman, you
know what I mean. But shewas alive. She's lucky she wasn't paralyzed.
Yes, this could have been,I mean, an awful situation in
general, because she'd already been sexuallyassaulted. But she's laying there. She

(56:21):
can't even run. All she's doingis waiting, breathing, listening to the
sound of her own raspy breath asshe's waiting for Anthony Sowell to come and
finish the job. But fortunately therestaurant across the street. This owner is
there, he's fixing some things,and all comes one of his employees and
says, hey, there was awoman next door. She's laying naked on

(56:42):
the ground and it looks like shefell out of a window. So he
jumps out. The owner of thechicken restaurant jumps out. He runs across
to the house that little space betweenRace Sausage shop and Anthony's house, and
he sees Sean laying naked, buthe also sees Anthony who's now outside,
who's also naked, and Jules.There's actually a video of this online.
Vice did an incredible documentary where theyshow this video. It's not very graphic,

(57:06):
you can't see a lot, butAnthony's basically trying to lift this woman
who's laying there, struggling and tryingto pull her in, not knowing keeping
in mind that we don't know ifshe's got any spinal or neck injuries at
this point, which is why youwant EMTs to come and attend to somebody
who's taken eighty three floor bone cracking, crushing ball. Yes, he did

(57:29):
not care about Sean Mars Like.All he wanted to do was continue to
do what he was doing. He'sa narcissist, right, so he wants
to manipulate the situation. In whatright mind? In what world would people
come up to a person who's layingbloody on the floor. It's very evident
that this person has fallen. Clearlythis person needs help, and yet Anthony,
because he's a continual manipulator, thinksthat he can talk his way around

(57:51):
this. And so as people startingto gather, Anthony starts to say,
hey, guys, I can takecare of this. No one needs to
call anyone. This is my wife. You fall out what we were having
sex. I'm going to take herback into the house. And you can
imagine Sean listening to these conversations ifshe could hear them, and being mortified
and terrified, but in too muchpain to speak and tell people that she
needed help. I can't even imagine, Like, this guy's inflicted so much

(58:14):
trauma and fear, and though Seansurvived, this probably still plagues I'm sure
she still has nightmares about this.Well. Fortunately, paramedics arrive. They
are starting to treat Sean. Theybelieve that this guy is her husband,
and so they take her into thehouse to attend to her, but she
soon emerges with the neck brace on, and because she's still not communicating and
they're only getting again this individual's word, we've got this unreliable narrative again telling

(58:38):
them what happened, and so hejumps into the ambulance with the paramedics and
goes with Sean. I wish,and I don't know what he did,
if he did do anything, butI wish the owner of that restaurant would
have said, hey, guys,just so you're aware, this person is
not who he's claiming to be.This is the how many a woman that
I've seen escape this house naked somethingoff. I wish he would have done

(59:00):
something instead of minding his business.We live in a society where sometimes we
have individuals who don't act. AndJoels, I feel you know about this
stuff based on your background, youknow, in your education. But we
know about that case that bystander effectin New York where a woman was outside
being assaulted and everyone was just kindof a kitty genomice. Everyone was assuming

(59:20):
that someone else was calling the police, and though we later learned that people
were calling, but someone should haveacted. Someone could have prevented her from
staying out there vulnerable for so long, and so we continue to see that
bystander effect. Well, someone's goingto do something, Someone's going to help
that person out. No, it'son us to act. It's on us
to do something. The chicken restaurantguy, come on, man, I

(59:42):
know, Joel's so frustrating, sofrustrating. I'm so frustrated by this.
This man obviously had to have hada pretty good line to what was going
on in the neighborhood. I thinkin his defense, I guess he just
excused and justified away everything because Anthonyor Tone really was that good of a

(01:00:02):
manipulator that he was not just groominghis victims when he brought them up,
he was grooming the entire communities.He convinced all of these people that what
they were smilling was not a deadbody. He convinced that restaurant owner that
what he was hearing was him thevictim of a robbery. You convinced people
that everyone else who was coming outof the house was crazy and he was
normal. Gaslight, gaslight, gaslight. He gaslt that community for years,

(01:00:28):
for years, and so in addition, as we know, it's a part
of who he is. He gasletthe situation, and we believe in the
reports that he must have had contactwith Sean at some point while he was
in that hospital and she was recovering, because when she came to police wanted
to interview her, and she said, I was getting high with Anthony.
I dropped my keys off the balconyand I guess I was trying to grab

(01:00:49):
them when I fell out of thatwindow. And when Anthony shared exactly the
same story, police had no reasonto believe that there was anything other than
the truth, and so they ruledand cleared this incident as an accident.
Now you remember La Tundra Billips,right, Joels. This was the woman
who had run across the chicken restaurantwho told Anthony, I'll do whatever it
take, yeah, so I'll comeback. You would get me high,
you told my sweater blah blah blah. Wall. Five weeks after the rape

(01:01:14):
and strangulation that took place with LaChandra, there was finally a probable cause
Affidavid's sign. And what I'm assumingis that during that time the sex assault,
this sex crimes unit had been accumulatingenough evidence to try and build this
case. Why it took so longautumny knows, but thank goodness, it
finally happened. So on Thursday,October twenty nine, thirteen members of the

(01:01:35):
Cleveland Police Departments Swat Team meet andthey're having a quick briefing before they enter
the Sowell residence. They show upat the house and it's you know again,
twelve to h five Imperial. Theydon't know if Anthony's home, and
they walk into this home. Andwhat's so interesting when you hear about the
testimonies of those officers is as theywalk in and they climbing the stairs to

(01:01:59):
get to the third floor, they'resmelling this smell. But they know this
smell unlike the people in this neighborhoodand unlike Lorie Anthony's ex they know that
this is the smell of rotting bodies. And so it's so eerie as they
walk into this home. It's dark, windows are covered with plastic. You
can smell the smell of decay,the doors locked, the doors closed.

(01:02:20):
It's unbelievable that an individual was livinghere. So officers are stepping and there's
pictures of this online if people wantto see. But they're stepping over garbage
backs, garbage backs filled with clothes, debris. It's disgusting in there.
Again, there's this weird, nastysmell, the smell of death. And
as officers get in, the lightedscopes on the firearms are catching glimpses of

(01:02:42):
images and of bodies, and sothey cast the light on two people.
The room is dark, and whenthis flashlight hits these bodies, you can
see one of the bodies had aclover shaped silver pendant necklace around her neck,
and the other was wearing a whitedress that was pulled up to her
waste. Clearly she had been thevictim of assault, but their bodies just
hadn't been disposed of yet, andso there was also a shovel next to

(01:03:07):
the body with the white dress.This guy had just been so calmly doing
whatever he wanted with these bodies.There were literal bodies in this home,
and he was in no rush todo anything because again he was alone.
And so what police later determined wasthese were the bodies of Talasia Fortsen and
Diane Turner, two of the manywomen who had been missing in this neighborhood,
and no one had known what wasgoing on with them. The police

(01:03:27):
also go down to the basement wherethey find freshly turned earth beneath the basement
stairs. You can see image ofthis again. Weist is a great job
of documenting this. But they foundthe resting place of poor Janice Webb.
And so once the police had seenthe two dead bodies upstairs on the third
floor and the body of Janice Webb, they no longer needed that sex crimes
warrant. They ended up going infor a warrant for murder and not for

(01:03:50):
rape, so that they could comeback and continue to look for more evidence
of Anthony's crimes. And so atthis point, emergency vehicles are arriving at
twelve to five. It's raining,and it's ten pm, and this place
is literally a crime scene. Peopleare gathering outside and watching, and the
police commander of the Cleveland Police endsup holding a press conference and telling people

(01:04:12):
about the suspect. You know,this is a guy we need help from
the community and finding him. He'ssix feet tall, he's one hundred and
fifty five pounds, he wears classes, he has a mustache sometimes he has
a beard, and we need yourhelp. And so there's a woman who's
across the street and I love herfor this, but she's bought the house
across the street from the so Wells. She's been living there for many years,

(01:04:32):
and what she realizes, maybe there'ssomething off again. She was still
also one of those individuals who dromanticizedtone. This is a guy who looks
out for people. He shovels people'sdriveways. He's a sweetheart. But something
in her gut tells her she needsto tell him, Hey, there's a
misunderstanding. Police are at your houseand they're looking for you. Something's got
to be up right. So shedrives over to Anthony's sister's place, the

(01:04:55):
stepsister who he grew up with,Tressa, and she's on one hundred and
thirtieth Avenue. She finds Anthony sittingon the couch, you know, just
relaxing. Obviously, he's not awareof what's going on. Maybe he didn't
know. He didn't have access tothe news, but he was playing video
games with his twenty two year oldadult nephew. At least he's not sleeping
this time. Gosh, I'm shockedthat he wasn't sleeping. So she says

(01:05:18):
to him, Hey, Anthony,the police are at your house. There
were two dead bodies found at yourhouse. Come on, I'll take you
back there. You need to talkto the police. So she's thinking he's
going to be horrified and say what, okay, come on, let's go
over, but he just sits therecalmly. He doesn't even look up at
her, and he just says toher, come down, let's go over
there. Maybe he's still in shock. I don't know what was going on,

(01:05:40):
but he gets into the car withher. They drive over, and
the only things he says to thisneighbor is that girl made me do it.
And the second thing he said isnow it's all going to come out
now. I don't think at thispoint, Juls it had hit him yet
what was happening, because as theydrove up to the house and he sees
the police sirens, he looks overat the neighbor and as take me back

(01:06:00):
to my sister's house. He's changedhis mind. He doesn't want to face
reality yet, and so she's scared. There was tense. We can't blame
this woman for not driving over.I mean, you've got a killer potentially
in your car. She drops himoff. She drives back home and she
tells her son Tony did it,and he walks over and tells the police
that he knows where Tony is.And so now it's October thirty, two

(01:06:25):
thousand and nine. Police and teamswere converging on this house. They found
Janis in the basement. She hada green leather bout around her neck.
Her wrists were bound with shoelaces,and they were bound actually so tightly that
police weren't able to unwrap them.They had to cut those bindings off.
Also in the basement they found ared bucket across from where janis remains were

(01:06:45):
found. Inside, it looked likethere was just newspaper, but they found
the head of Lashon DeLong. Herbody had actually never been found. I
wonder if that headless body that hadbeen found upstairs was the body that had
been decapitated where they had come from. In the backyard, dogs also found
loos dirt. There were several bodiesfound in the basement that Friday five,

(01:07:08):
which included Crystal Doser. She wasfound with the cloth around her neck that
had been used to strangle her wrists, and her ankles had been bound with
wire. Tan Your Carmichael, anotherone whom some of your listeners might remember,
was also missing, was also foundin a shallow grave with an electrical
cord around her neck. Amalda Hunterwas found with a strap from her purse

(01:07:28):
that was used to strangle and itwas around her neck. Michelle Mason,
another missing woman, was found partiallyclothed, covered with blankets, and she
had been placed in a plastic garbagebag. These individuals were cast aside as
if they were nothing, as ifthey were garbage, like trash and like
crystal. Michelle Mason had been strangledwith a strip of plots, so that
was found around her neck. PoorKim Smith, the girl had a close

(01:07:50):
relationship with her dad, who hadlast been seen going out for a night
out with her friends, was oneof the last bodies to be found in
the backyard. She was naked fromthe waist down, wrapped in black plastic
bags, and her ankles and wristshad been tied and bound with strips of
cloths. So all of these womenwere killed by strangulation, and it was
either by ligature or by hand,but all of them had been strangled to

(01:08:12):
death. The community now has someanswers as to why there was this putrid
smell and why these women kept disappearing. Hey, that was the reason all
those years of that smell of decay. These bodies were literally falling apart in
the backyard in this neighborhood, inthis community, and you wonder, oh,
my gosh, like the trauma that'sprobably plaguing people who grew up in

(01:08:33):
that community, who were there forall of this, I can't even imagine.
I can't imagine. Just question,do you think that Anthony Sowell chose
to dispose of them in the homebecause this was like his number one choice,
like John Wayne Gazey have other options. When he chose to bury those
boys in his home, it seemedlike a choice. It was a conscious

(01:08:55):
one. Did Anthony Sowell have accessto him? Believe he did because when
police showed up after the incident withthe victim whose hand was cut, whose
thumb was cut, there was acar in the images the police evidence,
so there was a car in thedriveway. But you also wonder too if
there was comfort for him in knowingthat those bodies were still in there,
right, so he could have potentiallydisposed of them. But these were trophies,

(01:09:17):
potentially, because if he cut offthe head of lashand DeLong and placed
it in a basement, but thendisposed of her body elsewhere. Why did
he keep that head? I'm assuminghe wanted these bodies close to him.
He wanted to exert control over themfor the remainder of his time in that
house. I think this was purposeful. I think that he could have probably

(01:09:38):
disposed of them elsewhere, but hedidn't care. This was about what he
wanted, and I'm sure he thoughthe could lie his way out for years.
About that smell as well, disgusting, Yeah, definitely, I think
it. Based on what we have, what little evidence we have as to
why he did it, I thinkthe likelier, most probable answer is,

(01:09:58):
yeah, he wanted to have controlrole even in death, and that he
didn't take trophies. The bodies werehis true So scary too, is he
has all of these bodies outside.He has bodies in the basement. He
has bodies on the third floor,but in a cral space, you know,
because he's been doing this so longthat he's running out of places to
place bodies. Right, So thepolice find Tashauna Culver's body in a dirt

(01:10:20):
full crawl space. That's the sameroom where Tealicia Fortson and Diane Turner had
been found. But Tashauna's neckbone hadbeen fractured. He'd snapped her neck and
bound her wrists with rope before doingthat. Nancy Cobbs was also found in
that same sitting room. She'd beenstrangled before being placed in plastic bags.
I mean, this guy was sosick and depraved, and it's so horrible

(01:10:42):
to think that these women who didn'tdeserve that the last thing they remember was
that face. A total of elevenwomen were going to count leshand DeLong,
even though it was just her headthat was found, but a total of
eleven dead women were found at twelvetwo five Imperial, And just for the
sake of honoring the victims, Jeels, because I know this is important to
you, I do want to statetheir names to Shanna Culver, Nancy Cobbs,

(01:11:05):
Talacia Fortson, Diane Turner, CrystalDozer, Tanya Carmichael, Amalda Hunter,
Michelle Mason, Kim Smith, JaniceWebb, and Lashan DeLong. All
of these women, people who arecared about, who are loved, who

(01:11:27):
should have had an opportunity to turntheir lives around, who should have been
given the opportunity to raise their kids, to see their grandchildren grow up.
All of them had their lives strippedfrom them, and for many years,
you know, these stories were untold. No one cared because people, for
whatever reason, did not care abouttheir lives, because they were drug users,
because they had criminal histories, potentiallybecause they were black women. But

(01:11:49):
their lives mattered. And I'm sograteful that finally someone paid attention, Finally
something was done so we could learnabout their stories and we could tell people,
remind people about what happens when acommunity turns their backs on crimes,
on things that don't seem right.We have people like these eleven women who
are forgotten and who remain buried untilthese stories can be told. Well,

(01:12:14):
you might be wondering here, Drolls, So what's going on with Anthony at
this time? These bodies are beingunearthed, right, and they're being pulled
out of this house. Well,by the time Anthony's neighbor returns with police
to the house, his sister's house, Anthony's gotten. He grabbed a backpack
and he was on the run,hiding in an abandoned house. For it's
about a mile and a half fromthe house on Imperial for a period of

(01:12:34):
time, so he's pretty ballsy.He's hiding a mile and a half away.
He knows the neighborhood. But becausehe was a drug addict by Saturday
morning, as you remember, thesebodies started being found on Friday, October
thirtieth. Now it's Halloween morning,October thirty first, two thousand and nine,
and so he's desperate to get somedrugs. So Anthony starts walking down

(01:12:56):
the street. It's one hundred andsecond street, when a man who is
caught miss and of what was goingon. He was aware of his surroundings,
paid attention and noticed that, hey, this is the guy whose face
has been all over the news forthe last couple of hours, you know,
forty eight hours. I continued tosee this face, so he recognized
Anthony. He immediately drives over thepolice station. I'm so happy he's the
guy who I think it was thetwenty five thousand dollar reward for anyone with

(01:13:18):
information leading towards Anthony's arrest. Thesky nded up getting that reward, but
police respond, they find Anthony,and he was finally placed in custody.
What is so awful about this situationis, obviously the survivors of those attacks
had to testify you had a grandjury who had an eighty six case involving

(01:13:41):
the homicides, involving the sexual assaults, involving the strangulation, and fortunately a
grand jury returned. It was onlyan eighty five count indictment because one of
the counts the aggravated burglary of gladysWade. They didn't come back with an
indictment against so Well for that.But in twenty and eleven, he was
found guilty on all eighty five houndsbesides that aggravated burglary, and he was

(01:14:02):
also sentenced to death on each ofthe eleven aggravated murder counts for those eleven
victims that we just talked about.As I stated earlier, Jules, as
you'll remember, Anthony's house was destroyedby the City of Cleveland on Tuesday,
December sixth and twenty and eleven.This video of the community watching as this
house crumbles and people are crying andscreaming, take it down, turn it

(01:14:26):
down, you know, break itdown. This was a huge torment.
It was a sore, open woundfor people who lived in that community.
Almost ten years after the destruction andthe demolition of his house, on Monday,
February eighth, twenty eleven, theCleveland strangler, Anthony Edward Sowell,
died of an unspecified terminal illness atthe Franklin Medical Center in Columbus, Ohio,

(01:14:48):
while he was awaiting the death penalty. He died when he was sixty
one. It's great that there wassome justice in resolution there. I mean,
there are so many missed opportunities forintervention here where it seems like the
system failed these women, and theindividuals within the community turned a blind eye.
And I think I'm not blaming them. I think it's probably because Anthony

(01:15:11):
was such a skilled manipulator and hewas literally gaslighting them NonStop. Smells like
a dead body. Oh no,it's sausage. A lot of basement,
you know, Yeah, basement forsure. My stepmom whose organs are failing,
who's let me live in her housewhen no one else should have accepted
me like a psychotic human being.He's the worst of the worst, and
he is, unfortunately, somebody whoin childhood ended a lot of trauma,

(01:15:35):
and he made choices in adulthood.Lots of people endure horrific traumas, but
they don't turn out to be Anthony. So well, he chose to do
these things to these women, andhe got what he deserved, I guess
in the end exactly. Of course, we wish she could have been clot
sooner, but you're one percent right, Juels Like I want people to remember

(01:15:58):
that you cannot judge the story ofa victim by just looking at the picture,
hearing a little bit about the story. These women were so much more
than their abuse. These women wereso much more than their past. These
women were so much more than thenumber of children they had. They had
every right to continue to still bebreathing to this day. And what I
hate is that Anthony took that fromthem, and that the last place that

(01:16:19):
they were was in that filthy,disgusting house. I wish they could have
died of old age surrounded by thepeople that they love. And you know,
it breaks my heart that there somany individuals were still living in that
community who don't have enough finances orwhatever to get out of that situation.
I can't imagine continuing to pass thearea where you had been assaulted, you

(01:16:39):
know, where you almost died,and so it's heartbreaking. But again we
have to remember, we cannot blameAnthony's mom for his decisions. There are
so many people who abused, whoare sexually assaulted as children, who witness
abuse, who are not in thebest situations. Anthony's nieces, for example,
didn't go around becoming serial killers,you know, and they had every

(01:17:00):
right to be angry at the world, but they didn't. Anthony made a
choice. He is who he is. He was who he was because he
allowed himself to be He allowed himselfto be that person and to take those
lives. And so we can't feelsorry for people who don't want to get
help, and for those people whoare depraved who are listening to this,
who feel these weird compulsions and wantto commit crime, get help, get

(01:17:23):
help. Don't take another person's life, you know, don't take your life.
Get help. There's always help available, whether you're the person who wants
to commit crimes and perpetrate crimes,or whether you're the individual who's been the
victim of a crime. Like there'salways help out there if you seek it,
and without that, you're going tocontinue to fall into situations that are
completely avoidable. Yeah, I agreeone percent, and I want to thank

(01:17:45):
you Lidet from How to Spot aKiller for sharing these stories of these many
victims and so many survivors too.These women were so courageous and so smart,
thinking on their feet, the oneswho got away from him. I
was in awe of some of theirability to just kind of compartmentalize the situation,
do and say what needed to bedone in order to get away exactly

(01:18:10):
exactly. I'm so grateful for theirfight and though we know and we're sure
the individuals who ended up dying foughtfor the allives too, but I'm so
happy for the survivors because now theyget to tell the story of those who
can no longer speak for themselves,and so I hope and I'm so grateful
that they continue to advocate on behalfof those who can no longer speak.

(01:18:31):
But this was such an important story, Jewels, and I want to commend
you. Thank you so much forusing your platform to raise awareness about black
stories and the stories that are overlookedby society. Because I think this is
a very important story to tell,and because I still have such a small
platform, I'm so grateful to youand to those listeners who are going to
do some research and learn about othercases involving individuals who are marginalized because we

(01:18:56):
need to highlight those cases so wecan prevent future crimes and prevent the continual
cycle abuse and other generations. SoI want everyone listening to go and check
out out a spot a killer.You can watch on YouTube and you can
also check it out on whatever podcastplatform you listen to. And what type
of cases do you typically focus on, just so the listeners have an idea,

(01:19:17):
yes, Jill, So I lookfor cases where we have escalating behavior.
I don't necessarily only focus on serialkillers or male cases. I'm actually
hoping to do my next case ona female killer. But what I'm looking
for is a behavior that we cananalyze, that we can break apart,
where we can identify escalation, wecan identify abuse potentially causes of certain reactions,

(01:19:43):
so that we can try to kindof form almost a blueprint of what
makes a killer so we can avoidthese types of individuals. That's what I
aim to do through my podcast.Is obviously a big focus on the facts
of the case and on the victims, but my goal there is to strip
apart the case so we can findthe red flags. So where can the
listeners find you? On social media? So Jules I'm on Twitter, as
you know, at how the Numbertwo Spot a Killer. I'm on Instagram

(01:20:09):
at how to Spot a Killer.I'm on Reddit at our slash how to
Spot a Killer might have a littlecommunity there that I'm trying to form.
I'm on TikTok how to Spot aKiller as well. You can also find
my website at a how to Spotof Killer dot go daddy sides dot com
if you want to check out thepodcast on that platform. But again,
I would love to connect with yourlisteners. You know, we're all a

(01:20:30):
fan of the Riddle MEI podcast,so you know I would love to be
able to connect with other individuals wholove what you do, and so any
fan of Jules is a friend ofmine. I'm looking forward to being a
part of this community, and soI would love to hear from other people
who listen to you. I wantto thank everybody for listening, and I
also want to do a big shoutout to my editor who goes by the

(01:20:50):
name Smile, but her name isalso Alisa, and she's done such a
great job for me, and I'mgoing to link her music in the show
notes, so please please go checkher out support her music. She is
incredibly talented. I'm also going tolink the Patreon in the show notes if
you were interested in joining Patreon.So until next time, stay safe and

(01:21:12):
remember accept nothing, question everything,

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All Episodes

The Cleveland Strangler Pt. Two Ft. How to Spot a Killer

Stuff You Should Know