Pioneering Plant-Based Pet Nutrition and Sustainable Dog Food with Petaluma Co-Founder, Caroline Buck

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Caroline Buck (00:00):
Well, you know what's funny?
I mean, I have the worst tastetesters of all time.
Like they are so enthusiasticfor truly all food, so I need to
at some point I need toconvince Garrett to let me get
another dog who's like verypicky, because they're horrible,
like they are not useful.
I have to like bring it aroundto like friends and friends and
friends, and be like I need youto try this.
So they were like losing theirmind about the box coming in the

(00:21):
door because it was food.
We knew what the food would belike because we'd done so much
sampling and testing before wegot it.
I had never seen our packagingin the flesh until it arrived at
our doorstep.
So I was the most panickedabout like oh my God, are there
any typos?

Ella Magers (00:38):
Hey there, and welcome to Rise and Thrive with
me, ella Majors.
I created this high vibepodcast from a place of profound
curiosity, fierce compassionand the deep desire to connect
you with the wisdom ofinspirational wellness, health,
fitness and conscious leadersand change makers.
Here's to discovering our blindspots and embracing life as the

(01:00):
adventure it is.
The time is now.
Let's do this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, hey, hey,
everyone Ella here, and I'mgonna kick this off with some
celebrations.
I think I started this a fewepisodes ago.
It's how I start my coachingsessions with my individual and

(01:24):
group coaching clients, and it'snot because I am all into this
positivity culture where youhave to be positive all the time
.
I truly believe that the goalis not to feel better, but it's
actually to get better atfeeling.
That has been a philosophythat's been instrumental in my

(01:46):
own growth and healing over thelast few years.
So it's not about that.
It's really about connectingwith the ways in which any
situation we're in can lead togrowth and healing.
So, yeah, so what I'mcelebrating?
And it's also about connectingwith gratitude, right?

(02:07):
So one thing I'm celebrating isgetting back into strength
training, and that's to say I'vebeen doing calisthenics for the
last few years as my main focusjust less time spent with
weights, and just recently Ifelt this urge to lift some
weights and so that's beenexciting.

(02:29):
So I will be heading out to dothat in a little bit.
It is early here.
If you're watching on YouTube,you'll notice a little bit
different lighting because it isstill dark outside.
I am an early riser, you guys.
I cherish my morning time, whenmost of the world or at least
most of the country that's amuch more accurate statement is
still sleeping and there's thisjust sense of calm and peace and

(02:54):
emails are not flooded in and Iget my meditation in, I read
books, I have my morning routineand then I do get to work early
in doing some of my morecreative projects writing, talks
and that sort of thing.
So anyway, celebrating strengthtraining I'll be going to do

(03:14):
that in a few hours and alsocelebrating that Quinn will be
visiting me for the weekends.
He's headed in from Austintomorrow night and, for those of
you who didn't listen to ourstory in the last episode,
definitely encourage you to gocheck that out so you can know

(03:34):
more about that relationship andhow that transpired.
Also, celebrating what we'regonna be doing this weekend, and
part of that is an event calledDaybreaker, which is a alcohol
and drug free dance party.
Basically, it starts, they haveyoga and a fitness class if you

(03:55):
wanna join that first, and thenit's full on DJ and full on
dancing free from substances,which I'm really into these days
, and they have these events allover the country.
So if that's something thatfloats your boat, it's usually
also not late.
If I go to a club and startdancing, it's way past my

(04:17):
bedtime at this point in my life, and this one's starting, I
think, at five o'clock in theafternoon.
So how cool is that?
I don't find many of those.
We're also tagging that withwhat's called Jungle Magic.
It's a one day retreat down inHomestead, florida, with breath
work and yoga, movement, tribaldrums and dance, immersive sound

(04:40):
healing, cacao ceremony,ecstatic dance, a fire show.
It's all sorts of things.
So, yeah, it's gonna be afabulous weekend.
So I'm celebrating that, and Iwill also say, before I
introduce today's incredibleguest, that we recently had a

(05:01):
fitness for longevity serieslaunch and that was part of
Plantapalooza, which was anonline festival.
That's complement, thesupplement company complement,
put on and just had so muchresponse from that fitness for
longevity series that Ico-created with them, that

(05:22):
that'll be something that I willhave up and offering to you all
, to the general public, shortly.
So stay tuned for that.
If you are not signed up for theway Wednesday newsletter yet,
definitely go in the show notesand sign up for that.
It's a monthly newsletter putout with my five latest badass

(05:44):
discoveries and recipes I'mloving and workouts I'm doing
and songs I'm inspired by.
Dating Quinn, who's in themusic industry.
I've gotten some insiderinformation that has helped
connect me with some new music,so I'll share about that quotes
I'm pondering all this greatstuff and it comes out once a

(06:04):
month and it'll also, when yousign up for that, send out a
connection survey because I wantto get to know you all better
In 2024, I've got lots of thingson tap that I can't wait to
announce and for now, I'msending out this survey for
anyone who signs up for my list.
That'll help me get to know youbetter.
I wanna know about yourrelationship with food, your

(06:27):
body, spirituality and whatchallenges you're facing and how
the programming that I'mcreating can help with the
challenges you're facing.
So sign up for that.
And, yeah, let me tell youabout today's episode with
Caroline, who is the co-founderand CMO of Petaluma, which is a
sustainable dog nutritioncompany with an ambitious goal

(06:49):
to challenge the pet foodindustry's reliance on animal
agriculture.
At Petaluma, caroline isfocused on building the most
trusted brand in the plant-basedcategory, with evidence-based
nutrition, verifiablesustainability, credentials and
myth-busting commonmisconceptions about our
omnivorous friends, dogs.

(07:10):
So, as most of you probably know, I am the human caretaker of
Shai.
Shai is my 17-year-old rescueChihuahua.
I've had her for the last 14years and she's been plant-based
all along, and I've tried outnumerous different types of
vegan dog food, some of whichshe's really liked, and when I

(07:32):
got to introduce her to Petalumashe gobbled it right up.
Now she does not have a wholelot of teeth left, so I actually
wet the dry food and let itsoak in so it becomes softer, so
that worked out really well forher.
I even did that with theirdehydrated sweet potato treats.
I rehydrated them and cut themup, so that worked out great.

(08:59):
Hey, caroline, so great to haveyou.

Thank you so much for having me on.

Yeah, it was so interesting.
So I am in a new relationshipand I just went to visit him and
his family in Austin and cometo find out his mother.
I had not mentioned you orPetaluma, but his mother is
exploring vegan or plant-baseddog food for their German
Shepherd and she had justordered and got in and got in

(09:28):
Petaluma.
That's amazing, yeah, and he'sloving it.

Guinness is the dog my gosh.
That's incredible.

Yeah, he's a little older and you have a senior
formula.

I do.
Yeah, we have an adult and asenior one.
That just launched.

Yes, well, she got that and they are loving it.
I know I was like no way I'mabout to interview Caroline on
the show oh my gosh.
It was so, so interesting, Wowsuch a pleasant one.

I think I wouldn't be so starstruck if
that ever happened.
That has not happened to me inthe wild, where, like someone
doesn't know about me andPetaluma, and then I see
Petaluma in their house, like Iwould be shell shocked.
Like we're still still tiny andyoung enough that that would be
.
Oh my gosh, that's so cool,thank you so much for doing that
.

Yeah, I thought you'd enjoy that, but I do want
to start somewhere kind of alittle different, which is the
place I'm enjoying startinglately.
So my first question to you is,beyond the bio and all the
accomplishments and accolades,who is Caroline Buck?

You know, I don't know why it's so hard to answer
questions like this, because Idon't know, especially when
you're, as you know, like whenyou're doing entrepreneurial
things, it feels like you'retalking about yourself all the
time, even when you're talkingabout other people, like I feel
like I should have a very likeready to go answer.
But I think, like, at my core,I'm a very curious person.
I think I've always been likecurious, bordering on like nosy,

(10:47):
like I want to know why thingsare how they are, which I think
has propelled me in a lot ofdifferent directions in life.
That definitely led me toveganism of like why am I doing
things a certain way?
Why do I have these likepatterns?
And it's definitely I thinkit's been a slow journey to do
something entrepreneurial, but Ithink ultimately that like
curiosity of like but why not?
But why not this, why not thisand definitely led me into the

(11:10):
world of marketing.
I think I'm a pretty likeinquisitive person and like need
to know why things are verycurious about how people think
about things, and then I wouldnot have been able to
authentically call myself thisuntil like six or seven years
ago, but I'm definitely a hugeanimal person.
I was a dog person and, likeyou know, cat and rabbit and
horse person, but couldn'tauthentically probably call

(11:30):
myself an animal ever untilswitching my diet around.
But I've always been very like,in tune with the emotions of
whatever animals in the house.
They've always been a hugecomfort to me and I love taking
care of animals.
I currently have two dogs andlike a handful of backyard
chickens that I've skipped up inthe weeks today, but it's a

(11:51):
very funny experience.
If anyone has ever adopted achicken, the whole thing is just
very funny.

Well, I really want to hear this story actually.

So we went to I live in the Bay Area.
There's a very nice shelter inMarin County, as you might
imagine.
That's like very well keptlittle shelter.
And we came in wanting chickensand they asked they're like oh
wait, wait, wait, you're notgoing to eat these, right?
No, we're not going to eatthese chickens.
And we came in to maybe get oneor two and we just took all of

(12:18):
them.
And we just took all of themand just put them into a dog
carrier and brought them homeand just the whole thing was so
funny.
If you've adopted a dog whereyou feel like you're getting
like the Spanish Inquisitioninto, like the keeping and
carrying up this dog and howmuch square footage of yard they
have and your commitment tothis dog, and then a chicken,
they were like just doublechecking this chicken sign going
to Popeyes and then just likesending you on your way with

(12:40):
extras at the door.
It was just very funny.
Wow.
So definitely always been ananimal person.
And then I think the otherthing that has maybe propelled
me more in the area of liketrying to be more considered
about the environment andclimate is I've always been an
outdoorsy person.
I've been a runner for a long,most of my life, and I think
living in California, it's beensomething we've had to confront

(13:01):
more often, and in Florida too,we're just, we're feeling it and
yeah.

I don't know.

I think that that combination of things has kind
of led me to where I am withoutme really realizing it, and I
think that's the only thing thatI can do If I could spend my
days in the company of animalsoutside that's my happiest sweet
spot, for sure.

Well, now I think the question is because you've
mentioned this right away, withthe animals and the cognitive
dissonance and when that changedand how that changed.
I think we have to go there nowbecause yeah, you know, I think
it's.

The cognitive dissonance, especially with pets
, is something that I try tolike remind myself of when I'm
with animals.
I feel like it's the mostbeautiful thing that I've ever
seen.
That's the most likerealization that I had all the
time, because I hope that itmakes me more empathetic to
people who have not yet madesome of these changes.
But yeah, for me, my husbandand I, who are co-founders

(13:53):
together, we made like a reallyabrupt shift to veganism.
Like we'd been cutting back andcutting back for years, like
you know, again the vinches, andthen just decided, like 1
January 1st, to just stop.
I don't recommend that forpeople just didn't turn back
after that point and it was justthis very odd experience of
like buying all of my groceriesfor the week and then going to

(14:14):
the pet store and buying like a20 pound bag of meat.
It just I think because it'ssuch a processed food, it's
almost like a household cleaneror something where you're just
like not really thinking of itas a food product or at least I
wasn't thinking of it as a foodproduct.
I had not really thought aboutwhether there was or
alternatives, I hadn't thoughtthat deeply about it, but it
kind of sparked a bit of a chainreaction with our household.

(14:37):
This is as if we have theequivalent amount of meat
consumption, as if there'sanother person in this house
who's eating meat.
Like it's just very strange tohave this like kind of abrupt
ethical shift but not have itapplied to this dog.
That was like very stark, Ithink once we had changed our
diet and I think maybe theabrupt nature with which we
switched to adopting a veganlifestyle probably contributed

(14:58):
to that feeling so stark.
And then at the same time myhusband, garrett, was working at
Mars Pet Care.
Mars is, very quietly, thelargest pet food manufacturer in
the US, so most people knowthem as like the candy bar
company, but they also have thelargest veterinary clinics in
the US, so they're a huge playerin the pet world.
And so he was being steeped inthe world of animal nutrition

(15:20):
and veterinarians and hisexperiences with them, that
plant-based diets andalternative diets are very, very
possible and very feasible andcommercially produced.
And it was kind of thisinteresting mixture of things
that was like okay, we need toaddress this, like extreme
cognitive dissonance of feedinganimals to our animal and like

(15:40):
this is possible and this isinteresting and I'm not sure why
that marketing message hadn'treached me previously, so that
was kind of how it all kind ofcame together around the same
time.
And also I've had manyexperiences prior to being vegan
where I took my dog to morerural places and he would
interact with farm animals and Ifelt so weird about it Like it

(16:01):
would just linger with me forforever of like these animals
have equivalent, if not greater,intelligence than my dog and
this is just so strange and I'vereally put this out of my brain
for a reason that I need tothink about more deeply.

Wow, that's so interesting.
All of that is so interesting.
Let's talk about the dog foodindustry for a moment, and what
are the reasons the dog foodindustry as it is now is so
problematic?
I mean from every angle.

So there's.
It's a really interesting,wacky industry.
It hasn't existed for a ton oftime, like turn of the century
era, and it has servedhistorically as a place to put
things that humans don't want toeat so that has meant all kinds
of ingredients and proteinsover time but has served as a
place for byproducts, for waste,for dead, dying and diseased

(16:52):
animals or just for, like animalparts that just are not
marketable to humans, likechicken feathers and all kinds
of things that get ground up andput into pet food.
So it's served for a long, longtime and to this day as a place
to just like kind of subsidizethe existing animal farming that
is set up for human consumption, just to take the things out

(17:15):
for whatever reason.
They are not marketable or theyare not safe for humans.
They could put into dog food orcat food.
That's kind of been the statusquo for a very long time.
In the last 20, maybe 30 yearsthere's been more of a heavy
pushback by consumers againstkibble and that has led to the
rise of like farmer's dog andthese fresh frozen foods that

(17:36):
are marketing human gradeingredients.
So maybe there was an argument,although we don't really see
people making it, because it'spretty unsavory that the
byproducts are sustainable.
Right, it's not competing withhuman food streams.
You don't really see thathappening in marketing.
I think it'd be a verydangerous game to play because
people would get hurt quickly.
But like that was one argument,potentially Farmer's dog and

(17:59):
the fresh food brands of theworld are now still coming from
a factory farm, but it's a human, competitive piece of meat.
So it's increasing demand foranimal agriculture versus like
taking a stream.
That would have been waste,which is bad.
Besides the fact that it's morejust like environmentally
taxing, to make a fresh food itrequires net like a greater

(18:23):
increase in animal production,which is just really distressing
.
I think like the connectionbetween factory farms and
environmental impact is like notreally up for debate anymore.
I'm sure there are people whoare still doing that on the
edges of the internet, but it'snot really debatable anymore.
They're huge contributors tohuman accelerated climate change
and increasing demand for thosetypes of places is not good and

(18:45):
it is the way that the industryis trending.
You know it's not everybody isdoing that, but I think that's
kind of the challenge that wehave right now, because it was
always low quality but maybepicking up on a waste stream.
Now it's higher quality andcreating more demand for animal
agriculture.
That's where we hope productslike Petaluma can educate the
market a bit more that there arealternatives to that process

(19:06):
meat that people are worriedabout and they don't need to be
opting into these new formats.
They can choose a differentstream of food entirely for
their dog.
That's way less harmful.

And I mean everything's marketing right.
So all the byproducts, thoseBurger King versions of dog food
.
Right, they still market it ashealthy food.
I mean, how educated oruneducated are people?
And what is that piece of themarketing for Petaluma that
you've got to really add in?

(19:37):
You know what I mean?
Yeah, To be able to succeed inthe market.

Yeah, it's really hard.
It's something that we try tobe super thoughtful about, I
think, because a vegan, aplant-based diet, is going to
have more scrutiny than aconventional diet, which I
expect, and I don't think it'ssomething we want to shy away
from.
Yeah, for that reason we reallytread softly on the marketing

(20:04):
side.
We want to describe like ourformulation and like the
nutritional science and the PhDswho review our food and we want
to make people feel supercomfortable with how we
developed this food and theresearch that's behind it.
But it's challenging in anindustry where people are saying
this is healthier, this is withno substantiation or better

(20:25):
skin coat and nails, which islike the most common trope, with
like no evidence to suggestthat those are one indicators of
health or to like proven.
So it's a little bit of theWild West, like people just kind
of like shoot from the hip alot in the pet food industry.
It's not super, super regulated.
In a lot of ways it is.
I mean, it's it's regulated byan association that's like part

(20:45):
of FDA called AFCO, but in a lotof ways people get away with
saying all kinds of things onpackaging that I think people
have just kind of becomeaccustomed to, which is really
interesting.
So it's a challenge because insome ways, you want to like let
people draw their ownconclusions from what you have,
but it does make it morechallenging.
For me as a marketer it is morechallenging and more of a puzzle

(21:07):
to solve of.
It's not going to be like a onesentence blurb conversion on
Instagram.
It's going to be.
You know, we see people, beforethey make a purchase on our
website, are spending minutesand minutes and minutes reading
six or seven articles, comingback to our website four or five
times Like.
We don't expect people to likeit'd be cool if they did but we
don't expect people like quickconvert, like yes, this is the

(21:28):
thing I think.
There's a lot of self education.
It's a high education productfor people who've never heard of
it before.
To like really get comfortable,which is a very different kind
of like framework thanconventional dog food, which
generally doesn't have a lot ofingredients and they're just
like it's chicken and rice andyou know, trust us, because
we're Purina is kind of all theyhave to do.

(21:50):
So it's interesting.
Things are definitely changing,though, I think, with the rise
of especially youngergenerations who consider their
dog like on the same levels likea human child the quality, the
sourcing, the transparency.
It's on like another level now,because dogs are family members
and they've gained a lot ofstatus in the household, I think

(22:10):
too, since our parentsgeneration.

Yeah, I can totally see that Now.
Do you remember when you andyour husband decided to go all
in on this business idea and Imean that this is a big deal to
dedicate your life, yourresources, all of this to this
company?
Do you remember like what kindof pushed you over the edge and

(22:33):
how you came up with the name?
Those are my two.

Yeah, absolutely.
You know, I can't remember likethe specific moment.
We had been talking about itforever.
We both wanted to do somethingwith like an animal welfare or
climate impact.
Head food was something that wefelt more comfortable in
because of Garrett's specificlike work background.
He was just spending a lot oftime in the pet industry, but we
knew it would be really hard.

(22:56):
So I think that was like tookus a little bit of time just to
get comfortable with the ideathat this is not.
This is going to take us.
We have to be in it for thelong haul, to be kind of
prepared for that, to know thatthis is not going to be
something that happens overnightin terms of converting people
to it.
And that's okay because if youthink, if you have that mindset
going into it, you just makedifferent choices along the way.
But you know, I think in someways we were like naturally

(23:17):
interested in becomingentrepreneurs because we both
wanted to work on a projecttogether.
We have very different skillsand then some ways, not a
natural entrepreneur becausewe're not really high risk
taking people outside of thisshared venture together.
I think it took us a long timejust to get comfortable with the
idea of striking it out on ourown.
I think ultimately, what tippedthe skills was just feeling a
lot of urgency, like I think,seeing so many of our friends

(23:41):
and just like the market movingup market and buying more animal
proteins, and feeling like thatneeded to have like an equal
and opposite reaction and thatwe could tell a really
interesting story.
I think we just both started tofeel like a sense of urgency,
of like there should be moreproducts like this.
I'm not sure who's going to doit.
If we can kind of like weatherthe marketing storm, if we can

(24:02):
kind of like steal ourselves tolike build a really interesting
brand that can do somethingdifferent, then we should just
go ahead and do it.
But it was definitely not likea quick decision at all.
Yeah, I think maybe some of ournaivete helped us initially,
because we were reallythoughtful about how we created
the company early on.
I think it would be harder tomake some of those choices now.

(24:22):
And then the name.
So for people who aren'tfamiliar with the name, it's a
place it's in Sonoma Countywhich is like wine country in
Northern California, but it'salso very agricultural.
So if you've been to Petaluma,which is like 45 minutes away
from San Francisco.
It is famous for chickenfarming.
It's kind of a cute littleVictorian town so it feels like

(24:46):
you stepped back like 100 yearsmaybe and it's known for like
farm to table.
It's a weekend place but it'salso kind of a working
agricultural area so that's kindof like what's in the air when
you're there.
So it's kind of a little bit ofa nod to like know where your
food comes from.
And also we had an experiencestaying in Petaluma on like a

(25:09):
farm's day where the woman, thereally wonderful woman who owned
the farm, had a bunch ofanimals on her property and our
dog just assimilated into like aherd of goats for the weekend
while we were there and it wasjust another tick in the favor
of like would it be a crazy ideato just call the company
Petaluma?
It has the word pet in it.
It conjures up like a farm, butlike kind of a mythical farm,

(25:30):
like if this isn't really whocomes from.
This is like the front of adairy bottle version of where
your food comes from.
So I think it was like more ofan inside joke to us but also
had like a little bit of meaningto us as like a place where
people think their food comesfrom and you know it's kind of
like that myth of an Americanfarm, but it's also a beautiful
place and is local.
So it's funny meeting people onthe East Coast.

(25:53):
They like fully think it's amade up word or that's just some
kind of funky combination ofwords.
And then people in Californiaare like why don't you get away
with calling it Petaluma?
To which I usually say like howdid Patagonia get with calling
it Patagonia?
Turns out you can call yourcompany whatever you want within
reason.

Right, right, oh, that's so great.
Okay, so you made the choice tomove forward with this company
for the reasons you've suggested, and what are the steps for
actually creating that formulaand how did you go about
figuring that out?

Yeah, that was the longest piece.
It was something we really.
We did a lot of upfront justtesting and surveying of people
to hear what.
What are plant ingredients thatyou think your dog likes?
What are plant ingredients thatyou know to be healthy?
What flavors does your dog like?
There's some of that, just likeconsumer testing, which led us,
interestingly, to peanut butter.
Peanut butter is one of themain flavors in our food.

(26:46):
Most people know that their dogloves peanut butter.
Most dogs love peanut butter.
It's a plant protein Mostpeople.
I think if you put like peanutbutter in your smoothie, you're
not like I had a vegan smoothietoday.
You're like, no, I had a peanutbutter smoothie.
So I think that was aninteresting place for us.
It's just kind of get a senseof like, what are?
Just, we have dogs that willliterally eat every vegetable
under the sun.

(27:06):
So if we were to survey a fewhundred people, I'd be curious
to understand, like the flavorsthat people are looking for.
But on the science side it'sreally interesting.
You can form with, just likethe various combinations of
proteins and whole grains andlegumes and healthy fats, like
you can build really interestingnutritional profiles that if

(27:27):
you were to submit, you know asample of Petaluma and a sample
of maybe another baked food thathas a similar like, let's say,
macro profile to a lab.
I don't know that they couldreally distinguish them.
They'd have similar percentagesof protein, of fat, of
carbohydrates, and that was ourgoal in formulation.
So we worked with one leadveterinarian formulator who's

(27:48):
worked in commercial dog foodmanufacturing for decades, and
then we also consulted with PhDsin animal nutrition, which is
interesting because it's sodifferent from human nutrition.
Like, it's a very, very smallnumber of them in the US.
It's a challenging degree toget.
So we consulted with them too,just to ensure, you know, we

(28:09):
want to get feedback from allsides to ensure this diet is
accounting for having reallyhigh digestibility, which is a
concern that sometimes peoplehave with plant, as you know,
plant-based diets to ensure allthe amino acids are there.
You know synthetic veganvitamins are included to just
ensure that that's all availableto the dog through diet.
So it took us a really long timeto both cross our T's and dot

(28:32):
our I's on the science andformulation side to make sure
that we had a profile that wefelt really good about, and then
we ultimately decided to bakeour food, which was kind of has
been kind of the biggest hurdle,I think, in our business so far
.
There are not very manybakeries in the US that make pet
food.
There's a lot that make treats.
So it's becoming a more popularformat, because Kipple kind of

(28:55):
has this negative wrap.
It's really not deserved on theplant-based side Like.
The problem with Kipple, in myopinion, has everything to do
with processed meats.
But it is a format that'sreally nice from our perspective
because you don't add anyflavoring, you're not spraying
on like a scent or palatine,that's what it's called.
It just comes out of the ovensmelling like the ingredients

(29:16):
you put into it.
And I think we made a choiceearly on to include as much
organic as we could and wewanted that to be visible to the
customer.
Like you open the bag.
We wanted to be able to seepieces of the ingredients and
smell the peanut butter and kindof have the experience of the
food be food.
So it took us a few years tokind of like get that all really

(29:38):
dialed in where dogs loved it.
Veterinarians were excitedabout the nutritional profile
and we had like a partner whocould bake dog food at scale,
which is now becoming fairlypopular.
But around the time we weredoing it there's maybe two in
the US that could crank it out,so it's been for people who had
jobs in the tech world prior tothis.

(30:00):
It's a very physical, demandingproduct to make.
This was very sad.
It's time to get the first bagin our hands and open it and
feed it to our dogs.
It's very slow to make aproduct.
A physical product took a longtime and I think, rightfully so.
Right, and I think there's avery quick way to do this unless
you have tons and tons and tonsof capital and people to get it

(30:20):
done.

Yeah, I'm kind of laughing a little bit because so
Quinn's mother, who had bought,yeah, for Guinness, she's like,
smell it.
She wanted me to smell itbecause she really appreciated
that she could smell, yes, andso what you're saying is so
resonating.
And then she said I even tastedit just to see it.

(30:42):
She was like and that's?
I mean, it seems like that'show it should be right, like we
should be able to share.
We share our food with the dogs.
Yeah, if the dog's food isshareable with us, then that's
quality stuff.
Yeah.

It's so funny you say that too, because we've had
people who will be like oh,this one, you know, I just tried
your senior formula and it haslike more yellow in it and what
I was.
Like there's more turmeric,turmeric, curcumin and turmeric
in it and they're like oh,that's cool that it's not like I
was.
Like there's no coloring inthis, it's just coming from the
ingredients itself.
So like it's just to your point, like it's a food, all of the

(31:18):
ingredients she could certainlyeat.
You know it may not taste asgood to go, but yeah, it's very
interesting.
Like I wouldn't dare eat apiece of kibble from whatever I
was feeding my dog years ago.

Like yeah, I mean I'll look back.
Many people would no, no, Okay.
And then when you're creatingit and I'm sure doing some
market research, who is yourtarget audience?
I mean, the number of actualvegans in the United States is
pretty freaking small.
Like yeah, how did you know?
Or you tell me, like, are morepeople interested in this than

(31:51):
just vegans, and how?
Are you doing that?

Yeah, and I have the same concern.
When we started, interestingly,there was some survey data out
of, I think, the University ofGuelph in Canada that showed
that like a third of pet ownerswere interested in a meat free
diet if they felt confident inhow it was made, which was
shocking to me.
That seemed really really highrelative to how few vegetarians
and vegans there are Today.

(32:14):
About like 70% of our customershave, like, this is the first
plant based food that they'vetried for their dog, or they're
switching from a meat based foodto.
The vast majority of people arecoming to us from a
conventional meat product, whichis interesting, and about half
of our customers tell us orreport in our surveys that they
are vegetarians or veganthemselves.

(32:36):
So it's about half, which isstill surprising to me.
I think it's interesting.
Usually the people who are notvegetarians or vegans themselves
that have found Petaluma arelooking for the absence of
something like we kind ofchatted about earlier, like they
don't want processed meat intheir food.
So they're kind of like findingus through process of

(32:57):
elimination, or they'recompelled by climate and they
haven't made the dietary changethemselves yet, or they're
cutting back.
I think there's a lot of some,at least from some of the people
I've spoken with like there's alot of like emotions and shame
and feelings tied up in food, sosometimes people will like be
slower.
I'm making a big guess here,but just based on conversations

(33:21):
I've had with folks like itmight take them a long time to
get there with themselves, orthey might take a while to break
habits or make a big shift, orit feels really hard, whereas
changing your dog's diet isrelatively easy and is one of
those trade-offs you can make.
That's not insignificant.
So it's been really interestingto see that in general, most of
our customers are not comingfrom another meat alternative

(33:44):
and for the most part they arenot vegetarians or vegans
themselves, which I expect tolike I hope continues over time,
because it gives me a lot ofoptimism that maybe they'll make
some changes elsewhere too.

Yeah, absolutely, when you brought the first batch
home for your dogs.
First, I want to hear aboutyour dogs, who they are, their
names and all that and were youlike holding your breath, like
like what was that?
Like like hoping they're gonnalike it, what if they didn't?

Well, you know what's funny?
I mean, I have the worst tastetesters of all time, like they
are so enthusiastic for trulyall food.
So I had some point.
I need to convince Garrett tolet me get another dog who's
like very picky, because they'rehorrible, like they are not
useful.
I have to like bring it aroundto like friends and friends and
friends be like I need to dothis.
So they were like losing theirmind about the box coming in the

(34:34):
door because it was food.
We knew what the food would belike because we'd done so much
sampling and testing before wegot it.
I had never seen our packagingin the flesh until it arrived on
our doorstep.
So I was the most panickedabout like oh my God, are there
any typos?
Just like.
And I was like I need toinspect every inch of this bag
and make sure it looks the waythat I want it to look when we
submitted these designs sixmonths ago.
So it was more of like a justyou know we are still a very

(34:59):
small team and it was super,super gratifying to get it in.
But, yeah, I absolutely needanother dog in my immediate
network that is a picky eater.
Very helpful, you got it andtell us about your dogs.
I have two dogs.
One is 11.
I've had him for 10 years, thesame as Leo.
He was described to me as a lab.

(35:19):
He's not.
He's 35 pounds, he's just likea total mutt from the LA SPCA
and has been like the maincharacter of my life the whole
time about him.
And then I have another dognamed Oscar.
I got him on Thanksgiving fouryears ago.
I think he's five now, maybeturning six.
He was a stray dog in Mexico.
He came to us really in badshape, I think.

(35:40):
Our first dog, Leo like I don'tknow what his backstory was,
but he really slotted in thecomforts of home very quickly.
Oscar was a little more of aslow build.
He needed kind of an extrememakeover for his hair, his fur
and he was very skittish andvery scared.
He's really been like a latebloomer.
He's very attached to me.

(36:01):
I found him in the shelter.
It's called Family Dog Rescue.
They're in Sonoma.
They used to be in SanFrancisco.
I found him because a friend ofmine had sent me the link and
was like oh my god, this doglooks exactly like Leo and I
don't know what possessed me.
But I just sort of immediatelywent on and adopted this dog.
I didn't really think too muchabout it, I was just so like.

(36:23):
They really are likedoppelgangers of each other and
they are a bonded pair.
They sleep together, they areconstantly playing with each
other.
It's very sweet.
So I'm a huge softy, so Ibarely need, like a suggestion,
to have another animal in themix.
There always seems to be like afoster or a babysat pet around,
so I'm a very easy sell.
I need to, you know, keep mydistance from option areas, but

(36:48):
they're both great, I think,like daily outlets for us
especially.
I've been working from home fora few days where it's really so
nice.
As you know, having a dog likereally establishes a routine
that you never get out of, whichis so nice.

Yeah, yeah.
And when?
What's your routine with yourchickens?
And did you know what you weredoing when you I mean, they just
sent you home and were youalready familiar with what they
needed and like getting a setupfor them?
And you know how did that allpan out?

Yeah, Like probably true to form for
Garrett and I's personalities,like it was a COVID project that
we're like let's adopt somehens.
Let's like get some chickens inthe mix.
We have a little bit of spaceand he built like the most
elaborate chicken coop of alltime.
Like it does not need to be.
It looks like a dollhouse.
It does not need to be.
It doesn't need to be as big asit is.
They have free room of ourlittle backyard.

(37:36):
So we built the coop first andthen started to do some research
on it and most people that wetalked to beyond like predator
proofing, like so easy, they'dlike to just do their own thing.
They like get up with the sun,they go to sleep with the sun
and they're so pleasant.
And I don't know where our hensoriginated from beyond.

(37:56):
Like the shelter but they'relike we'll hop up on your
shoulder.
They're like very friendly,which I'm surprised by.
I feel like I expected maybethem not that they needed to be
pets, that were pet, but I'mstill always surprised.
They're so trusting and verysweet and funny Like.
They have funny little likesocial dynamics and I don't know

(38:16):
it's a.
I think chickens have been agood entry point.
I think people who can havethem in your backyard if you're
interested.
They're like very easyrelatively speaking.
I thought they would be muchmore work than they are, but
they're really self-sufficientlittle backyard crew and it's
very sweet.
Next door neighbors have like apatio that looks onto them and
they're just like watching thechickens all the time.

(38:36):
It's just they're funny towatch and they're good
entertainment and they're veryquiet.
So I'm a walking advertisementfor getting big chickens.

Well, I'm asking in part because at Hogs and Kisses
, our microsanctuary, we arekind of in the talking phase of
what's our next animals.
You know we've got pigs andrabbits at the moment, so
chickens are definitely in thediscussion.

So yeah, yeah, I had rabbits growing up, but to
me they seem a little bitsimilar, like in their enclosure
and keeping them safe.
Very sweet, but yeah, it's aslippery slope.
I feel like it's easy to have alot of chickens, which is
anytime.
I see an adoptable hen I'm like, oh, it's one more, what's two
more?
So easy to find, unfortunately,a lot of chickens for adoption,

(39:27):
sadly.

So I'm curious.
I didn't ask you about theorganic ingredients and how you
chose.
I know you're it's made withover 50% organic ingredients.
How did you pick and choose?
You know ingredients to chooseorganic.

Yeah, absolutely so, organic.
To me it's like a constantnegotiation we have Because I
think to a certain extent evenour customers, who will tell us
in surveys that they reallyvalue the inclusion of organic,
they don't necessarily want topay any more for organic or
there's like a ceiling on that.
So our initial interest insourcing organic and including
as much as we could wasoriginally from a place of

(40:02):
wanting to support healthierfarming practices.
So, for reasons I'm sure likevast majority of your listeners
know, like organic farming isbetter for biodiversity, it's
better for soil health, it'salso a lot better typically for
farm workers who are physicallyapplying pesticides, often by
hand, which can be dangerous.
So we set out to include asmuch as we could within reason.

(40:25):
And then in terms of whichingredients we selected, of
course always a question of cost.
Sometimes there's just not acost competitive organic
alternative or it's really hardto source.
But in general we were lookingat how the ingredients are
processed.
So if a food is already gonnabe milled or it's already going
to have like a processing step,which is kind of if our focus is

(40:48):
a limiting in switchword ofpesticides, that is a kind of
more sanitized product than, say, like chickpeas which are
coming to us fairly unprocessed.
So if we buy organic chickpeasfor that reason, same with, like
flax, a lot of our whole grains, like we're using whole oats in
our food and that's a great oneto buy organic if you can,
because coming fairlyunprocessed to a baked food it's

(41:12):
mixed in like you would bemaking cookies, so it's a good
one to reduce exposure to.
So it's kind of a set of likeprinciples guiding the selection
and we're always looking andkeeping tabs on how those things
shift over time.
As demand for organicagriculture goes up, I'm very
hopeful that we can get closerand closer to a higher inclusion
rate of organic.

(41:32):
Interestingly though, we couldnever, under the current
guidelines, be a certifiedorganic food.
The USDA who sets the organicprogram.
They don't allow for some ofthe synthetic vitamin
supplementation in products tobe organic label.
So we use in our foodL-carnitine, just an amino acid.

(41:54):
It's really important to havein your dog's diet, especially
if it's meat-free and it'scurrently not in the current
provisions it's not permitted indog food.
So I think from like amarketing perspective, there's
like I think it would bechallenging for us to get to a
high enough inclusion rate to beUSDA organic, but that's kind
of not like the focus of whywe're doing it.

(42:14):
But it's kind of an interestingaside that, like, really only a
meat-based food currently couldbe certified organic, and it's
something that we want toinclude as much of as we can,
while being mindful of, like,keeping this as affordable as
possible, which is always achallenge when you're in a
certain range of ingredients.

Yeah, I can only imagine that balance, just doing
the best you can, and yeah,with the price point and all
that makes sense.
Are there any particularquestions or kind of objections
that you get quite frequentlythat you are able to explain
away?
Like I don't know.
I mean, do people say, well, mydog is supposed to eat meat?

(42:55):
Like, is that a big one?

or are there other ones?
I think there's a lot of, andit's interesting because I try
to stay in like a zone ofempathy around this, because I
think it's like really the causeof this is just food marketing
for the last half century.
Like I don't know if peoplereally have like interrogated
why they feel this way, but Ithink for a lot of people they
have a knee jerk.
Like dogs are carnivores sothey require animal protein or

(43:21):
diet.
This is like abusive to notgive them meat.
That's like the most commonlike knee jerk.
It's usually not people who arelike I'm not going to be able
to be petaluma customers off ofthat, but I think what's
interesting to me there's areally interesting study that
came out a few years ago I thinkit was published in Nature,
showing that like dogs ancestorswere basically plant-based Like
because they evolved, areseparated genetically from

(43:44):
wolves to live alongside humans.
When we started farming, we weremostly eating plants, or plants
made up the bulk of many dietsin ancient human worlds.
Dogs ate our scraps, and so ifthere was animal protein in the
diet of the humans in that area,they probably weren't giving it
to a dog, so they weredeveloped all these really
interesting genetic adaptations.

(44:05):
It's why dogs can digestcarbohydrates, because they
evolved to be able to eat whatwe ate, which is a really
interesting story.
It's not something you can telllike super quickly of like
they're not a carnivore, they'rean omnivore.
And also like their ancestorsweren't either.
You know, might share a commonancestor with a wolf, but we're
going so far back in time thatit's no longer really relevant

(44:26):
to the like pug that you have.
So I think that definitely alot of pushback on like I
thought that they were acarnivore and then you have to
kind of explain no, and most dogfood historically has had very
little meat in it, even if thatwas a presumption.
And then I think the other thingwe get is like and even
sometimes from the vegetarianand vegan world just some

(44:47):
misinformation about like plantprotein, just that it's somehow
not complete enough as it is, orthat you can't get all the
nutrients from plant-basedsources, and that there's
something kind of wrong aboutsupplementation and those are
kind of harder myths and beliefsto kind of unpack.
So I think where we've opted togo on that route is we publish

(45:09):
a full nutritional profile onour website, like the lab
results.
So if there was a concern thatyou weren't getting certain
amino acids or vitamins orminerals in your diet.
You can just see what the labresults look like, but I'm sure
that's common across human foodstoo.
There's just some unpacking todo with plant proteins that

(45:30):
people have some hangups aroundor thinking just feeling nervous
about it not having all thenutrition you need, which is
definitely, of course, not true.
But it's a little bit harder tountangle than like an origin
story myth.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
All right Now.
I've also heard you say thatthe word vegan can be both
helpful and hurtful when itcomes to marketing.
Do you use the word vegan inany of your marketing tactics?
How does that come into play?

Yeah, I've definitely gotten some heat from
both sides before and I'm opento this evolving over time,
because I think that thesethings are changing all the time
too.
We lean more on plant-based,and my rationale is that I think
that vegan in the consumerworld has come to be associated

(46:22):
with looking for the absence ofsomething, so I wanna make sure
that this beauty product thatI'm buying is vegan.
I wanna ensure that this, likecoffee creamer, is vegan.
I do not want dairy in this orI do not want animal-based
ingredients in this, and myconcern, I think initially which
I think it's really too soon tosay this was an error on my

(46:44):
part or if people will nudgethis way is I didn't want to
market from the absence ofsomething for dog food, out of
concern that it felt like youwere focused on removing
something rather than focused onadding something which is like
maybe like a very slightdistinction.
But I wanted to talk about theplants.
I think one of the things that'sa little bit different from us

(47:04):
relative to the other meatalternative diets or meat-free
alternatives on the market rightnow is we're not using meat
analog flavors.
We're not calling things likechicken and rice or something,
or a casserole.
We're not using like languageto conjure up like a meat analog
.
We're really leaning into likesweet potato and pumpkin and

(47:25):
peanut butter and flax andchickpeas and we're trying to
advocate for using those foodsin your diet.
So I think vegan is helpful inthat it's shorthand.
So if I was speaking dependingon the audience, like if I'm
speaking to an audience withinPETA or within Veg Out Magazine
or a place where people havealready kind of gotten past the

(47:49):
initial reaction, then vegan isso helpful because it's just
shorthand with a group that'salready understands why you
exist.
I think with the larger marketsI've found it's just even in
conversations it's just like asofter place to explain the
plants.
So, all that said, I'm alwayshappy to change course on it
because I know people have bigfeelings about it and I hope

(48:12):
it's something that will changeover time in that it can be a
less polarizing term or a morehelpful term to describe
something as things shift alittle bit.

I'm with you.
I think that makes a lot ofsense.
Plant-based just is moreinclusive and allows people that
are wanting to do more but knowthat they're not ready to go
quote all the way to make ahealthy, sustainable choice for
their family, their pet familyas well.
So, yeah, no, that makesperfect sense.

(48:44):
All right, one more question.
You are gifted a billboard.
You get to do whatever you wantwith that billboard.
What do you do with thatbillboard and why this?

is so hard.
So I love the Oatly billboardsaround town that are like,
usually saying something alongthe lines of like milk, but for
humans I think those are like.
I love that they make fun ofthemselves.
It's very lighthearted.
I think I'd want to dosomething like your great, great
, great great grandparents, likeyour dog's great, great, great

(49:15):
great grandparents, like eightplants, like something.
Like your dog is not a wolf.

I think we're not a wolf.

Something to try to just like normalize.
This is like it's not a fad,it's not something really like
woo-woo and strange.
Like this is what dogs havebeen eating for centuries and
centuries and that, likecommercial diets changed what we
fed them?
Not really.
They are not like carnivorouswolves.

(49:42):
I think I'd want to dosomething like to kind of play
on that and to try to like leaninto the like I think there's a
lot of.
I sometimes joke that I feellike dog food is still like in
its like Boy Scout era, likethere's always just like a wolf
next to a stream, like catchinga salmon or something, but like
I don't know, I've never had adog that can do that, I've never

(50:03):
seen a dog do that, and I thinkthere's like a more interesting
story going back in time.
We don't have to do like acaveman thing, right.
So that's probably like Iprobably should come up with
something a little bit morecover for the sake of a
billboard, but it's something toplay on the fact that, like
this dog that you buy aChristmas gift for and take to
the vet three times a year andyou know would pay thousands of

(50:24):
dollars in surgery if theyneeded it.
Like they are not a wolf,something a lot.

Yes, I like it.
It's so great.
Oh, Caroline, I'm so gladyou're doing what you're doing.
Thank you for bringing theseproducts to the market and tell
us where we can learn more,where they can find the food and
buy it.
Absolutely.

We are mostly online.
Our website is feed f-e-e-d,pedalumacom and if you're in LA
or in Erwin stores, otherwiseokay we're on the internet.
We can probably get to youpretty quickly, and my email is
caroline at feedpedaluma.
If anyone ever wants to ask aquestion, we're always available
.

Fantastic.
We will put all of those in theshow notes.
This has been a fascinatingconversation.
I'm so thankful that you cameon with this and I hope to get
to meet you soon, and your dogstoo.

All right.
So thank you so much, sowelcome.

Thanks for listening to this week's episode
of Rise and Thrive with me,Ella Majors.
I truly hope you found itinspiring and, if you did,
please help me spread the wordby leaving a rating and review
on your favorite podcast playerand by sharing the show with
your friends.
As you probably know by now, mylife's purpose is to use my
voice to make this world a moreconscious and compassionate

(51:42):
place, and your reviews andshares make a huge impact.
And last, I'm getting a ton ofinsanely positive feedback about
my short and sweet monthlynewsletter called the Way.
Part four the Way Out isThrough.
I give my top five latest badassdiscoveries, insights and
explorations, like veganproducts and recipes.

(52:03):
I'm obsessed with books andshows I'm loving and workouts
that have me fired up.
Head on over to my website,EllaMajorscom, to sign up and
check out all the other awesomeresources I have for you and
projects I'm involved with,including Hogs and Kisses Farm
Sanctuary, where our mission isto create the best life for farm

(52:24):
animals while inspiringcompassion for all living beings
.
Thanks a lot and I'll see youon the next one.

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