February 27, 2024 • 51 mins
Religion, in its pure sense is to reconnect, in this sense, humankind to the transcendent. So I think it's actually a positive word, but you have to reclaim it, much like the LGBTQ plus community has taught us to reclaim the word queer, which can be a very positive word if understood correctly. So in that sense, I think veganism can be religious in that positive sense. But when religion becomes about erecting unnecessary walls and drawing lines with those walls regarding who is in and who is out, that's when it becomes problematic. -Stevan Mirkovich
Embarking on a plant-based journey can be as transformative as it is challenging, something Stevan Mirkovich knows all too well.
Stevan is co-owner of Planted Expo, a plant-based trade show, platform, and network designed to support you, no matter where you are on your plant-based journey.
Join me for this intimate conversation with Stevan, where we peel back the layers of his own transformation, revealing the heart and soul behind choosing a life nourished by plants.
We explore the profound impact of our relationship with food, the quiet revolution in our kitchens, and the way our plates can reflect our deepest values. It's not just about what we eat; it's the stories, the culture, and the love that simmer in every bite.
Steven generously shares his complex and evolving relationship with food and his body, including his profound weight-loss journey, the endlessly rewarding adventure of fatherhood, veganism, and how he came to embrace a more mindful approach to eating and wellness.
Our discussion then turns to the philosophy of veganism, challenging the notion that it should be anything less than a progressive journey. With empathy at its core, veganism, as Steven describes, is akin to laying down walls to pave a path toward unity and understanding, leaving dogmatic approaches and exclusion behind.
We invite you to join us at one of the upcoming three epic Planted Expo events coming up in 2024, two of which I'll be speaking at (Toronto and Seattle).
Learn more and grab tickets at PlantedLife.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Stevan (00:00):
Perfection doesn't exist for anybody and it's not about
perfection in that, but it'sabout kind of making sure we're
oriented towards that and thensaying, look, here's the journey
, and you might be way over here, but so long as you're oriented
, and slowly, howeverpainstakingly slowly, you're
(00:20):
making your way towards thatcore, that center, and slowly
becoming more and more aware ofyourself and of your
surroundings and of the earthand kind of beginning to get a
greater sense of consciousnessand awareness and the
interconnec tivity of everything.
That's all a journey towardsthat and we're all at various
stages of that journey.
Ella (00:48):
Hey there and welcome to Rise and Thrive with me, Ella
Majors.
I created this high vibepodcast from a place of profound
curiosity, fierce compassionand the deep desire to connect
you with the wisdom ofinspirational wellness, health,
fitness and conscious leadersand change makers.
Here's to discovering our blindspots and embracing life as the
(01:10):
adventure it is.
The time is now.
Let's do this.
Hey, hey everyone, ella hereand today's episode is
particularly special because myincredible guest, steven
Mirkovich, is the co-owner ofthe Planted Expo, a trade show
(01:35):
platform and network designed tosupport you no matter where you
are on your plant-based journey, and I connected with Steven
months back and was honored whenhe invited me to speak at two
upcoming Planted Expo events.
We really hit it off, in partbecause he, too, has a history
(01:56):
of having a complicatedrelationship with food and his
body, which we explore a bit inthis episode.
Steven is truly insightful,spiritual, self-aware and a
driven individual who saysplant-based living literally
saved my life.
As a recovering food addict,I've journeyed through
(02:18):
overeating, junk food, veganismand finally found the
life-giving ways of a whole food, plant-based lifestyle.
I really hope that you can joinme at one of these Planted Expo
events, which I have no doubtis going to be an epic
experience.
You can learn more about it atplantedlifecom.
(02:39):
Just check it out and see allthe amazing speakers that are
going to be there.
One of the ones that I'll be atis Toronto, that's March 23 and
24.
The other that I'll be speakingat is Seattle on April 20 and
21.
And there's also a third eventin Vancouver in June.
So, again, check that out atplantedlifecom, and I hope
(03:04):
you'll stay tuned until the endof this episode, because the
last 10 minutes or so we divedeep into a really fascinating
and controversial topic.
Given that Steven is also apastor, I asked him his thoughts
about veganism sometimes beingcalled a religion, and his
(03:25):
response is quite juicy.
We could say All right, youguys, let's do this.
Steven, it's so great to haveyou on the show.
Thanks for being here.
Stevan (03:40):
Thanks, ella.
It's nice to be here, Feelsgood.
Ella (03:43):
Yeah, it does.
I want to first just let youknow how excited I am to be
speaking this year at theplanted expo in Toronto, in
Seattle.
So thank you for inviting me tocome.
Stevan (03:57):
Great thoughts, to be able to work with people like
yourself.
It really is about the voicesand the businesses that are
present.
We are just kind of like alittle bit of a backdrop.
We have some organizationalskills and event skills and
we're really committed to makingsure that plant-based,
sustainable, vegan future ismore and more accessible for
(04:21):
everybody.
So, yeah, very excited.
We're less than 60 days nowaway from Toronto, and then it's
back to back to back.
For us, right, it's Toronto andthen 30 days later, seattle and
then, just five weeks afterthat, vancouver.
So it's an exciting season forus.
We're really excited to be inSeattle and to be stateside.
That's a dream come true forour group.
Ella (04:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I want to get to talkingmore about that in a little bit,
but what I'm most interested iskind of the human side of all
of this, and really you and Iknow from just the research I've
done and listening to you onother podcasts and reading that
you're a very multi-layeredhuman being and I'm really
(05:02):
curious to know how you'llanswer a question that I asked
many of my guests and that isbeyond the bio right and all the
accomplishments and these bigevents that you put on who is
Steven?
Who are you Like, the beingthat is you?
How would you answer that?
Stevan (05:23):
Yeah, great question, thanks.
I think I'm innately curiousand also kind of innately pseudo
confident that I can learn alot, and also not particularly
fearful of maybe kind of some ofthe things that sometimes are
(05:45):
kind of poor fears of people'slives.
So I show up kind of bright eyedand bushy tailed Like oh wow,
what's that?
I have this capacity to seelots, and then become
hyper-focused on something thatintrigues me.
So I mean, as a kid that mightmanifest itself in something
(06:06):
like skateboarding or playingthe guitar or a sport.
It might have been a particularhistorical event or individual
that I found interesting for aseason and then I read and
devour and learn as much as Ican.
That's how it is like peoplehave described me.
(06:26):
I don't know, it always soundsweird to me.
I have a hard time fullyembracing it.
People have described me as abit of a Renaissance man.
So I'm at home dabbling andthat's the problem.
It's a bit of ajack-of-all-trades but master of
none reality for me.
I know just enough about saymusic to like.
(06:47):
If I was in a group of peopleand we were talking about some
like ways to maybe do musictogether, I would kind of like
not feel totally lost, althoughas soon as I'm in a room of like
professional musicians, I'mlike, oh dang, I'm way in over
my head.
But like cool amateurs I coulddo that.
And it's the same thing.
I bake professionally because Ibecame enamored with sourdough
(07:10):
baking and making sourdoughbread and people are like, oh,
where did you learn?
I was like, oh, I'm justself-taught.
Like one day I thought I wantto eat good bread again and want
to learn all the ins and outsof wheat and agriculture and how
it's grown and how it's made,and I just like read everything
and listen to everything andthen practice that.
Now I can bake professionally asa sourdough baker.
(07:31):
So just as an example like youasked who am I Just like, hyper
curious, willing to try thingsAt song level too.
Also, some people have calledme distracted, or there's
somebody who moves on from oneproject to the next rather
quickly, like.
Those are some of the shadowsides of that, where I don't
(07:52):
play guitar as much as I used to.
There's a lot of things I usedto do, a lot that I don't do
anymore because I was interestedfor a season and now that's a
part of my history, but it's notwho I am today.
So I don't know, that's along-winded answer to your
question, but it's a good one.
I'm also profoundly connectedto people Like I love being a
(08:13):
dad, those relationships with mythree kids.
They're all such unique peopleand so I'm always feeling like
I'm pushed outside of myeveryday comfort zone and I'm
having to kind of see myself inthem and then also see them for
who they're becoming.
And so I've got a 16, or likejust turned 16,.
I've got a 13 year old, justheaded into like the heart of
(08:35):
adolescence.
And then I've got a four yearold, sweet little girl who is,
you know, precocious andwonderful and reminding me of
all of those wonderful agesagain.
So there's quite a gap.
Yeah, I mean there's a lot ofthings.
Ella (08:48):
I could go on.
Stevan (08:49):
I guess you get people talking about themselves in a
way they go Like I don't knowhow I could say a lot.
Ella (08:54):
Yeah, well, no, I think in curiosity, the way I see it,
it's such a superpower.
I mean it just opens so manydoors.
And have you always beencurious?
Is that something like from dayone?
That's just been kind of hardof.
Who you are is curious, whichis great, yeah.
Stevan (09:11):
I think so that's amazing.
Ella (09:13):
Yeah, no, I love that.
I love that and I can relate alittle bit to the jack of all
trades.
You know, being an entrepreneur, being a solopreneur as well,
you know, you kind of learn allsorts of things and doors open
and you want to go through themand they might be very different
from the last door you wentthrough.
So, yeah, I get that.
I get that.
The other thing that I think Ican relate to you is an evolving
(09:38):
relationship with food and yourbody and intersections with
spirituality throughout ourlives and, if you're up for it,
I would love to move in thedirection of kind of walking
through the evolution of thoserelationships for you, maybe
starting in childhood.
I know that's a very kind ofbroad topic, but maybe you know
(10:02):
if you can kind of think back tochildhood and that relationship
you have with food and how thatstarted to shift and evolve.
I know you had the knee injuryin high school and all that, but
like, with that question, whatkind of comes to mind for you?
Stevan (10:16):
Yeah, I mean.
I mean my earliest memorieswith food are good ones, like in
general, I have experienced thepower of shared meals and food
together and the art of cookingand flavors and kind of all of
that ability to come foryourself and love and the
(10:39):
Intangible components of what itmeans to be human Into the
creative act of cooking and orbaking or whatever the case may
be.
So you know, like my memoriesare of my grandmother, like
those are my earliest friends.
They're people that loved me.
I knew they loved me.
And then you know, like thenext concentric circle of people
Anties and uncles and friends,etc.
(10:59):
They are coming from an EasternEuropean Culture, like and I
think it frankly, I just thinkit's a universal sort of human
thing that food is at the coreof many family Experiences.
It's certainly at the core of alot of like my loving
relationships, and so I feltcared for and I felt invited to
participate when I would sitthere and make, for example,
(11:23):
donuts with my mom.
We have these donuts in a servercreation culture called.
I'm so bad at server creationnowadays I'm pretty sure that's
what they're called, but it'sbasically fried dough.
They're like wild shaped.
They're not like what we could.
You know North American culture, what we, what we think of as a
(11:45):
donut is.
You know it's got a particularshape, it's got a hole or
whatever like this would be likea lot of fritter, where it
doesn't particularly have anyshape and it's not in and of
itself flavored, but it's afried dough and you cut it open
and you fill it with whateveryou wanted to fill it with and
they can be savory or sweet.
So just one.
This is kind of one reallyimportant memory and I can close
(12:08):
my eyes right now and I canpicture the stainless steel pot
filled with oil and I canpicture the yellow Kind of
Tupperware container that my momhad filled with this yeasty
dough and how she would kind ofscoop it up and put it in the.
Oil and then watching all thelittle bubbles from around, like
(12:31):
just classic frying of dough.
I'm of doughnuts and the smelland how much I was looking
forward to, you know, dustingthem in sugar and putting my
favorite cream cheese and jam inthere and like eating six of
them.
So you know, those are some ofmy earliest memories.
I remember feeling good again.
(12:52):
I remember it just being likefrequently tied to visitors,
people coming over that food asconnection, it seems like.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Those are some of my earliestmemories.
When did I start kind ofrecognizing like some level of I
don't know what the rightlanguage is, is it dysfunction,
or is it like a shadowy side toit, where it wasn't just Love
(13:17):
and appreciation and flavors andsmells.
That was much, much later inlife, like into young adulthood,
I couldn't put two and twotogether as like this idea like
I didn't have the something,that is to know that food was a
coping mechanism for me.
I certainly didn't have thelanguage early on in my like,
adolescence, teenage years, oreven like your college.
(13:38):
Maybe I started to figure itout in college like and we're
talking like really early 2000,like a long time ago now.
Yeah, like that's what I wouldhave started to recognize.
Like, oh wait, a minute, foodis taking on.
It's playing a different role inmy life now like there was now
food was becoming a little bitmore isolated, something I might
(14:01):
do by myself.
It was something that I mightobsess about and might be kind
of like Twirling around in mymind's eye and thinking about,
like, all of the like is thisgood for me?
Isn't this good for me?
You know, all of thoseadditional questions like what's
its nutritional value or how isthis gonna affect me.
(14:21):
And that was because I, as youmentioned, in my last year of
high school, gained like 65 or70 pounds of weight, and that
just goes to show you howtotally disconnected from my
body I was and From itsconnection to food.
Like I had a catastrophic kneeinjury, skateboarding like you
(14:43):
do when you're in high schooland.
I just kept eating.
I just kept eating the way I'dalways eaten, and yeah.
Ella (14:50):
I mean.
Stevan (14:51):
High school is hard at the best of times and if you
have a knee injury, you'reworking and you know whatever
high school Drama there is inone's life.
Yeah, I found myself in themidst of my great 12 year like
completely Unrecognizable tomyself, like having to buy a
(15:11):
whole new wardrobe becausenothing I owned In the previous
year fit me by the time.
Like it was gradual, but likeyou just sort of one day wake up
and you're like, oh, I amprofoundly ashamed Of who I am
and that was the beginning oflike.
I went probably very close totwo decades With almost nobody
(15:32):
outside of myself Seeing me withmy shirt off.
I profound shame.
Ella (15:39):
So this shame that you found was this all behind I mean
shame lives in silence, right?
So you are internalizing this.
What was that like to thepeople around you?
Were you able to hide that?
How did that manifest in theother things that you were doing
in your life?
Stevan (15:57):
Yeah, I mean mostly I dealt with the shame components
of it, you know, in isolation,yeah, by myself, beating myself
up you know vicious cycles ofyo-yo, dieting, and trying to
figure it out and workingthrough how to make sense of
this.
In my life, you know, werethere some people kind of
(16:18):
brought in at some level?
Sure, but frankly I hadn't evencome to grips with it in my own
self.
So, like, how do you reallybring I'm still coming to grips
with it but like, how do youreally bring somebody into that
when it feels so like it's justscary?
It was just like a reallyfearful thing and you feel out
(16:39):
of control and you don't reallyknow what just happened or how
it happened or what it means,like really for me.
I think now, as I reflect, likeI just didn't know what all of
it meant.
It's like why was this happening?
And at some level you can chalkit up to the like the logic of
it.
Right, like super active kidhas catastrophic knee injury,
was eating like an activeathletic kid, continued to do
(17:01):
that and then, you know, low andbehold, found themselves in a
awkward situation.
That was.
You know, the hole was too deepto dig out of or to let
yourself out, I dug too deep ahole or whatever.
But you know, I think there wasway more and it started sooner
than that.
Like you know, sometimes youcan mask your growing super fast
and adolescence, like I was.
(17:23):
You know you go through yourgrowth spurts, your athletic or
whatever, and I was probablyalready using food as a coping
mechanism long before that in mylife.
But because you're growing sofast and you're dealing with
life in the way that you'redealing with it as a kid and
it's just not a thing, you know,I don't know how far back to
trace any of that, right, butyeah, like, look, I got married
fairly young.
So you know my partner in life,like she was aware of my
(17:47):
struggles at some level.
But again, that's a differentpodcast.
That's a really complicatedconversation or how that all
played out.
But to say that it didn't playa role, like it was all
encompassing, like, yeah, eventhe most intimate of my
relationships were deeplyimpacted by this relationship to
food and relationship to mybody and my disconnection from
(18:09):
all of those things.
It played itself out in reallydramatic ways later on.
Like, yeah, I don't know howfar down the road I want to go
in this podcast with some ofthat.
But like it was a lot and mybest friends knew like they were
kind of along the like dietingjourney of like because all of
us you know we're all whateverguys that are, you know you hear
that story of like getting adad's spot or whatever, like
(18:32):
we're all.
We were all dealing with it inour own ways and so we're all
kind of on the surface talkingabout like, oh, don't eat that
junk food.
Or like what does it look liketo you know, whatever, be
healthier and exercise more, orwhatever.
Like all the whole dieting,diet of things.
Ella (18:46):
Yeah, Well, what's interesting too is that at this
point, you know you and veganand I believe 2003 is that
correct.
So, yeah, so there's this.
We're talking about layers herebecause it was my 20s from 2001
ish to the end of my 20s when Ihad my bulk of disordered
(19:07):
eating and distorted body imageand all of this stuff, and at
the same time, there's thispassion for veganism and this
passion for whole foods plantbased, which I know you went
through the vegan junk food andthen, around 2011, went the
whole foods plant based route,and so you had that all going on
at the same time.
And so how did that all fittogether for you and your mind
(19:30):
and at what point were you alsolike really promoting the vegan
lifestyle to others and how didthat all kind of connect, if
that makes sense?
Stevan (19:39):
Yeah, I mean it all does eventually convert, yeah, but
it certainly didn't converge atthe beginning.
So I was raised in a religiousenvironment where some exposure
to vegetarianism and veganismwas kind of part and parcel.
So I was raised the seventh dayAdventist and in my early or
late teens and early 20s Istudied to be an Adventist
(19:59):
pastor, a minister, like achurch leader.
And so because anybody that'sfamiliar with blue zones and has
seen the Netflix documentaryDan Butner or read any of his
works previously or, frankly,has delved into any of the
academic health literature onthe benefits of plant based,
vegetarian, vegan typelifestyles, is familiar with the
(20:20):
Adventist world and so I hadthat like up, even though as a
kid I was raised in an Adventisthome.
Most kind of like EasternEuropean or like international
Adventists are actually notvegan or vegetarian and like
that's one of the weird thingsthat people hear, like oh,
you're part of that church, thatmeans you're vegan or
vegetarian.
It's actually just a smallsubset of particularly white
(20:43):
Southern Californian, mostlyAdventists in and around Loma
Linda that really kind ofsubscribe to this in any sort of
to any great degree, got itAnyways.
But because of that connection,when I started to kind of worry
about my health and worry aboutmy well being, I was exposed to
people that were not Adventistbut whom Adventists adored.
(21:07):
Guys like Neil Barnard and JoelFurman and some of these other
characters that like said, hey,look, the scientific literature.
And the best of what we cansense is like, hey, this is a
good way to.
And it was all like Adventistssaying See, even the scientific,
non religious community saysthis is the best way to live.
And so I knew of these books andso I read Joel Furman's Eat to
(21:28):
Live in 2003.
And that's what really sort ofclinched it for me from, like
that nutritarian concept of likejust, I've always been
interested in this idea of likewhat's your best bang for buck?
You're like finances, like, andI was like, oh, like I can
think about food as a best bangfor buck.
Yeah, like what's going to giveme the most nutritious caloric
(21:50):
bang for buck?
And I was like, oh, this makesperfect sense to me, even though
it took me years to kind offigure out how that all pieces
together.
That concept was reallycompelling to me and so that's
why it was mostly for healthreasons.
The ethical side of veganism interms of, like, animal rights,
and then the environmentaljustice side, and the ecological
(22:11):
side came also after down theroad, so it was primarily sort
of health and human welfare.
That was the beginning there.
And so you said, like when didI start promoting veganism, like
from the animal rights.
Again, I've always loved animals, but like how it all connected,
like whether or not, forexample, whether or not I would
buy a vehicle with a leatherinterior, just as an example of
(22:35):
like veganism, right Likeveganism is more than just the
health and it's more than wholefood plant based.
And I think there's a lot ofwhole food plant based people
that, frankly, don't care iftheir car is leather or not,
they're not vegan.
They're vegan in their diet butthey're not necessarily vegan
in their lifestyle entirely.
And so that would havedescribed elements of myself for
a long time.
And I think there are manypeople like so.
(22:56):
When I say I was vegan in 2003,that was really when I mean,
like my diet was vegan, got itLike it took several years, you
know, for me to like say, well,you know what, I don't really
need to do that Like, if I everdo something like that, like I'm
going to make the vegan choice.
And that was because you know,once you start going down that
(23:16):
road, you just become aware ofit more and more, and I truly
believe that the more of thesethings that stack together, you
begin to realize like there'slike there's almost no reason
not to be plant based vegan inyour choices.
Just it's the lightest way,most compassionate way to engage
.
So, from the cooking healthperspective, like almost from
(23:37):
the get go, I was like hey, ifsomebody wants to listen and
I've got an opportunity to sharepart of my story.
I'll share it and then, youknow, all the other parts
started to fit together.
You know, over the course oftime, and probably in about the
same time 2011, 2012 is when,like the vegan shoe fully
dropped for me and I was like,oh, okay, like yeah, that's now
(23:58):
a way of life entirely.
So yeah.
And then the planted X followingthat kind of thing you know,
just an opportunity totransition professionally from
doing one thing professionallyin my life and then looking for,
like, what are some ways that Imight utilize some of the
things I learned in my kind ofprevious professional life and
what would I be passionate to doand like organizing large
(24:19):
events and you know, kind ofcurating and experience over the
course of a weekend wassomething I did professionally
for over a decade.
I thought, oh, a lot of thiswill transfer, so maybe I can do
that for the vegan community ina dovetail to well with kind of
my sense of working my waythrough the world.
Ella (24:38):
Well, at what point did things start to shift for you in
terms of your relationship withfood?
What was there a turning point?
Did it slowly like?
How did that happen for you?
Stevan (24:47):
Yeah, I mean yes, I frequently tell the story of
chasing my kid around.
So my oldest, I just said, was16, and he was a toddler like in
and around two years old, andwe were outside and he took up a
flight of stairs and just likeI kind of gave him a bit of a
head start but he just keptplopping through and I was like
making a beeline up those samequite a stairs trying to catch
(25:08):
him and at the top of the stairslike my heart was racing so and
I would have been likesomewhere in the neighborhood of
like 240, 250 pounds and I'monly like five foot 10.
So that's a lot of weight on afive foot 10 frame and I was
just like I can't do this and itwas just one of those things
like I had yo-yo'd and kind offigured it out and I've been
kind of pseudo, trying to eat ahealthy vegan lifestyle for
(25:31):
several years like nearly adecade at that point, but you
know, and never really clicked.
And then I was like man, if Idon't change something like I'm
not going to be able to be thedad I want to be for these kids
as they grow up.
And so I just decided that wasit.
And that was the first time Ikind of figured out a fair bit
(25:52):
of kind of removing the vastmajority of like the junk food
side of ultra processed, if youknow what I mean, and I dropped
50 pounds and kind of kept itoff and went from like hovering
through the vast majority of my20s in like that 250 pound range
to like hovering in and around200 pounds and felt a lot better
about myself and was able tokind of return to a level of
(26:13):
activity and a level of selfawareness around my body and
some of those things.
But yeah, not really fullypiecing together the emotional
side of it, yes, kind of puttingin some really strong
guardrails that were like yes,no, and it was just clear and
this was a no food and this wasa yes, and then over time the
(26:35):
yes and no foods changed and youknow, you kind of try to figure
that out a little bit, butreally that's the story and yeah
, it was that profound of amoment, believe it or not?
Ella (26:46):
And did you do the whole oil and sugar free thing?
No process Right Like.
Stevan (26:53):
I consumed enormous amounts of fruit.
For some people is like that'ssugar.
I was like, oh man, I'll do it.
Ella (27:00):
Yes, no.
Stevan (27:01):
But yes, I definitely did the no oil and, frankly, my
body actually responds to thisvery day, like if I feel like
I'm struggling or whatever, andI just want to see like
immediate results.
I think everybody needs tolearn to eat a little bit
intuitively and there's no onesize fits all whole food, plant
based approach.
And is all of oil good or bad?
Like I don't know enough, I'mignorant.
(27:23):
I just know how my bodyoperates and if I want to see
myself thin out but still eatenormous amounts of food, like
in terms of volume, like saladsand fruits and all of the other
things, then for me being oilfree or as low fat as possible
in terms of like added fats,I'll ask for the avocados and
cashews and nuts and that kindof thing.
(27:44):
But if I really want to justdrop, like just cutting cutting
all of the added fats which are,frankly, where the flavor comes
from, but yeah, like my bodyresponds immediately like.
I drop weights and I thin outsuper fast.
Ella (28:00):
What's in your toolkit now for dealing with stress and
negative emotions and thingsthat would have, in the past,
derailed you completely, insteadof turning to food?
Stevan (28:14):
Right, yeah, I mean, look, this is going to sound
like your classic self-help,like all the latest podcasts and
literature and newsletters andall the rest of it, but you know
.
I have turned to things likebreath work and yoga is an
important tool in my toolkit.
So anything that slows me downmy mind races right and when I'm
(28:37):
in a stressful mode I can gointo like problem solving and
just getting more active andgetting busier, like if I just
do this, like I will, you know,whittle away at this to-do list
and I'll feel better aboutmyself, and it's like it's the
complete opposite of what Ishould be doing, which is like
saying no and basically anythingthat declutters my mind and
(28:59):
allows me to be present tomyself is the key de-stressor,
and that's easier said than done.
But I have some good new habitsaround that that is very
helpful for me.
I still have some strongboundaries around what's
available to me.
If I should choose, and that'sthe thing, right.
Like you know, miss Ella, foodis one of those things, unlike
(29:21):
alcohol, unlike gambling, unlikesex, unlike a lot of things,
Like if you have a problematicrelationship to something, there
are a lot of things you couldjust say I'm never doing that
again and you could be abstinent.
You know, should one chooseright?
But with food you can't beabstinent, right, like unless
you're open to just likeperishing.
So it is a constantrenegotiation.
(29:42):
And then, because I'm such asocial creature and actually
really believe in the culturalsignificance of food, I believe
that we should cook, I believethat we should allow it to be
the culinary arts.
I think that's a good thing.
I think food should bebeautiful, it should smell
beautiful, it should tastebeautiful.
You know, I'm not the likesuper pragmatic guy when it
(30:02):
comes to food.
Like I really do believe in allof that side of it.
So because of that, because I'ma social creature, because I
believe in the capacity for foodto bring people together and I
also want to be like super nojudgment.
That means I want to be able toallow things to be around me
and people to be around me, andflavors and food choices.
That may not be the best for me,given my history and everything
(30:26):
that I wrestle with, but thatdoesn't necessarily mean that
it's inherently not a foodoption for everybody.
Like there's lots of people thatcan consume these things in the
ways that they consume them andhave it be a healthy choice or
an appropriate choice.
So maybe healthy is not theright language to use there and
that's just not the right way toframe it, but an appropriate
(30:46):
choice, and I want to be able tobe in those spaces with those
people, whether they're my kidsor my friends or just anybody.
I want to be able to be in thatkind of environment and say
this makes sense, like this isokay.
That does come with the likealways being able to negotiate
(31:06):
those scenarios, you know, inappropriate ways, and I go back
and forth in my capacity to dothat, wow.
And so you know this is still ajourney I'm on.
This is not like I've got allthese tools in my toolkit and
now the struggle is over and I'mon the other side and I've like
got whatever you know, somelevel of mastery over this.
Ella (31:28):
I don't know that.
Stevan (31:28):
I have mastery, far from it.
It feels like some days I'mstruggling as much as ever, but
in general the trajectory isthis way right.
Like to an episode close butlike still, you know, like, if I
wake up at the start of itevery year and say, like what is
my relationship to my body,what is my relationship to my
own sense of self worth, what ismy relationship to food, how do
(31:50):
I negotiate social circles andall the rest of it, I would just
say, in general, I'm stillheaded in the right direction,
which is really encouraging tome it's certainly not a linear
path Like that's.
Ella (32:00):
Yeah.
Stevan (32:02):
It hasn't been for me anyways.
Ella (32:04):
No, and it hasn't been for me either.
There's still some triggerfoods and I have to, yeah, admit
what some of the ones for meare vegan butters in general, I
don't buy those.
There's something about, likeyou know, some of the vegan
cheeses and I think it goes backto that very intense.
I mean there's a lot of fat,there's a lot of coconut oil in
(32:24):
it, a lot of those cheeses.
So, yeah, there's still sometrigger foods that I'm aware of
and setting those boundaries,and in more stressful months
things are harder and it's yeah,it's a journey that's gonna
last forever, and more we canembrace that, the better.
Speaking of vegan cheeses, I amgonna try a bunch of them at
(32:45):
Planted Expo.
At what point did you?
How did Planted Expo come to be?
Stevan (32:51):
Yeah, it was some friends of mine that actually
started it in 2014 in Vancouverand back then it was known as
the Veg Expo and it was a oneday event and it was something
that slowly grew, you know, asthe plant based kind of vegan
niche you know was also comingof age and social media and all
(33:11):
the rest of it, you know it grewalongside of it At some point
or another.
Those friends were it justwasn't the thing for them
anymore and they'd asked me kindof three years in a row, like
would you consider taking thisover?
And kind of buying the businessfrom us?
And I wasn't in a place, bothprofessionally, you know, family
wise, like just on a lot oflevels.
I wasn't in a place until 2019when I finally said, hey, is
(33:35):
that still an option?
Because I'm kind of looking fora new gig and something new to
do and I have some ideas abouthow I would do this differently
than you guys have been doing it, but I think like sort of based
in the same premise of likebringing people together and
brands together to give peoplean opportunity to intersect with
the best of what the plantbased and vegan business
community has to offer to thewider consumer and so, yeah,
(33:59):
that all sort of transpired, youknow, almost five years ago,
but you know we dealt with thepandemic in the midst of that.
Anyways, yeah, so rebranded itfrom the Veg Expo to the planted
Expo, just because, again,veganism, as we talked about
earlier in the podcast, is a lotbroader than simply vegetables
and food, like a lot of otherthings that are part of the
(34:19):
plant based vegan lifestyle, andit seemed like that was the
nomenclature, the language thatwas being used.
More and more, a lot ofproducts and services were being
branded as plant based asopposed to vegan, and we can go
back and forth on all of thepros and cons of all of that
stuff, but the bottom line isthis approach that reduces and
(34:40):
eliminates the harm done toanimals and hopes to embrace the
most sustainable ecological andagricultural practices and, to
the best of our ability, is ashealth promoting as possible.
Those are all things thatmattered a lot, and so we've got
this amazing team.
Frankly, look, the planted Expois the team.
(35:01):
Yeah, I get to be on thesepodcasts and sure, the title is
like majority owner, but I feellike I'm just one person in the
midst of an amazing group ofpeople that come together and
their pros, and they know whatthey're doing and they love it,
and they're totally dedicated tomaking sure that when somebody
signs on, either and buys, youknow, a $20 ticket to come to
(35:24):
the events and chow down and buyand get great deals, or they're
a brand that's looking toengage with their core the core
person that is looking topurchase these things and or,
you know, incorporate more andmore vegan, plant based products
into their life.
Our job is to make sure thatit's an awesome event, which is
why we bring in amazing voiceslike yours, ella, so that you
know people come and say, wow,somebody like her has been vegan
(35:46):
for how long, and she's whatthat's so inspiring.
So it's kind of pulling as muchof that positive energy into a
room over the course of aweekend and saying this is
awesome, this is amazing.
We're amazing, but like it'sonly amazing because you have
the right people in the room andthe right brands in the room.
Ella (36:03):
So yeah, and I love how you have such a good mix of all
these different brands and allthese people getting to come and
try these foods of alldifferent types, and then having
these amazing speakers andChuck Carroll interviewing Dr
Michael Greger how fabulous isthat.
Do you have some things thatyou're really excited about for
(36:25):
this year?
Stevan (36:26):
Yeah, believe it or not, I'm actually really excited
we're doing a small little veganfashion show on the Saturday of
Toronto and Vancouver.
It's sadly not coming toSeattle, but, yeah, fun.
The visual that he started thevegan fashion show is actually
one of the speakers at our eventand said why don't we do like a
small vegan fashion showactivation as part of my time on
(36:46):
stage and we'll bring somebrands together and like do a
small version of what could be amuch larger.
So I think that's really cool.
That's something we've neverdone before and I think it
speaks to the maturity of what'savailable now.
Like I don't know how intovegan fashion you are, ella, but
there are like some really coolproducts out there that mimic
(37:10):
leather, mimic wool, mimic allkinds of things that are cool,
and there's amazing designersputting all of their creative
fashionista powers behind thesethings, and so we're pretty
pumped about that.
I think that's an interestingangle that we've never done
before and I think it's going toadd another layer to what we're
doing, not that other veganfashion brands haven't been
there before, but to like reallyfeature it that way.
(37:31):
I think it's cool.
Yeah, I mean obviously the bigVIP event in Toronto with Chuck
and Dr Gregor is going to beawesome.
Like you know, they're bothsuch characters.
I think they're going to begreat on stage together.
That's really fun.
And just to see, you know, seethe maturation of some of the
brands that were just likeemerging brands a year ago, and
then seeing all the new products, seeing some of the new voices
(37:53):
that are on our stage Every yearhas got like kind of that core
energy to it, and then thetwists and turns of you know how
one specific event may cometogether.
Those things have gotten mereally excited.
Ella (38:06):
Yeah, I love that this is a little shifting back, but no,
one's giving your spiritualbackground, your religion and
all this.
I know one of the things thatpeople sometimes get really
worked up about is some peoplecalling veganism a religion.
I'm just curious, kind of, whatyour thoughts are on that.
Stevan (38:28):
So the etymology of the word religion.
R-e is actually a prefix.
It's the prefix that we see ina lot of things to renew
something and to re-ligsomething.
Lig is actually the root forligaments, right?
So what does a ligament do inour body?
It makes two bones worktogether, right?
So you've got ligaments in yourelbows, in your shoulders, in
(38:51):
your knees, and it connects twomajor bones in your body and
makes that possible.
So to re-lig something inreligion in its pure sense is to
reconnect, in this sense, youknow, humankind to the
transcendent.
So I think it's actually apositive word, but you have to
reclaim it, much like the LGBTQplus community has taught us to
(39:12):
reclaim the word queer, you know, which can be a very positive
word if understood correctly.
So in that sense, I thinkveganism can be religious in
that positive sense.
But when religion becomes abouterecting unnecessary walls and
(39:33):
drawing lines with those wallsregarding who is in and who is
out, that's when it becomesproblematic, because then it
begins to create and it beginsto other people and say you are
not like me.
And so if veganism behaves inthat religious setting like sort
of bad religion, then I thinkwe are doing ourselves a great
(39:54):
disservice as a movement when weare actually doing the opposite
of re-ligging or reconnectingthings.
We are disconnecting things,and so if we erect massive walls
and we say you're only allowedinto our special group, we're
vegans.
If you do all of these thingsperfectly and if you don't, if
you renege on any of thesethings, or if you occasionally
(40:16):
slip up, or if you are only thisfar along in your journey and
not as far along as I am, well,you're not actually vegan and
you're not in.
I know what's in and I'm goingto guard the gate and here's the
wall and jump over it, climbover it whatever it takes to do
it, but until you climb over andyou meet my criteria, you're
out.
Former preacher.
(40:38):
A little thing there.
But just imagine, instead takeall of those walls and instead
lay them flat and say, hey, look, there's a path over there,
there's a yellow brick road,there's a path towards something
.
What is that thing that we'reall sort of walking towards?
Oh, reconnection with ourselves, oh, reconnection with the
(40:59):
earth, oh, reconnection with thetranscendent, oh, reconnection
with the animals.
What is the core of that?
Well, it's compassion, it'sempathy, it's the capacity to
see things for what they reallyare.
And so when veganism, orplant-based living or health or
whatever, it sort of sees it asa continuum, as something that
we are all working towards, andthat perfection doesn't exist
(41:20):
for anybody and it's not aboutperfection in that, but it's
about kind of making sure we'reoriented towards that and then
saying, look, here's the journey, and you might be way over here
, but so long as you're oriented, and slowly, however
painstakingly slowly, you'remaking your way towards that
(41:42):
core, that center, and slowlybecoming more and more aware of
yourself and of yoursurroundings and of the earth,
and like kind of beginning toget a greater sense of
consciousness and awareness andthe interconnectivity of
everything.
That's all a journey towardsthat, and we're all at various
stages of that journey, and soif veganism can be that where we
(42:04):
say, hey, look like we want toreduce animal harm lower that
wall and say this is a journeytowards that and it's a path and
there's arrows and there's waymarkers and landmarks, and say,
oh yeah, and here's the thing.
Like you've traveled, you'vehiked, you've walked around the
lake or you've gone from A to B,and when you're like way far
away, you're like where are weeven going?
(42:25):
Like what are we looking for?
And then as you get closer andcloser and closer, you're like,
oh man, that is so gorgeous,that is so beautiful.
That lake, that vista, thattree, that relationship, that
experience, that food, thatsexual encounter, whatever it is
like.
You get there and you're like,oh my gosh, this is amazing.
But until you get there, youdon't always know what it is you
(42:46):
were after.
And so I believe and this iswhat Planet X4 stands for is
like as inclusive as possible,as absolutely inclusive and
possible.
And then when we say here areour boundaries, we express those
boundaries as pathways, not asreally difficult to scale walls.
(43:07):
I don't know if I've explainedthis well.
I hope I have, but that's theproblem.
So sometimes veganism functionslike bad religion, where we
just like in and out, either oryou're good or you're bad,
you're evil, you know, and it'slike that's really broken and
painful and causes a lot of harm.
So let's not do that.
(43:27):
Let's instead just see peoplefor who they are, see them as
human, see them as worthy of ourcompassion, love and empathy,
and be open-handed.
Ella (43:37):
I think you said that better than I've heard in a long
time.
That was really beautiful.
Thank you for that message.
I think it's so powerful.
I mean, the statistics showlike the percentage of the
population that's vegan is notactually increasing very quickly
at all, and I think it is partof that.
And we hear you're not reallyvegan.
What's you know?
(43:57):
Oh, you did that.
What are you calling yourself avegan for?
And it's like whoa.
Let's open our arms and ourhearts to everyone who's curious
.
Let's get them on board.
Let's welcome them with openarms.
Isn't that what we want,instead of criticizing and, yeah
, putting those walls up?
So?
Stevan (44:18):
right.
So like, for example, I waiteda really long time to get this
tattoo and thankfully, I waitedlong enough to realize that
there was a difference between avegan tattoo and a non-vegan
tattoo.
I didn't know this.
Like I've been a vegan foryears, I didn't realize that
there were inks and I shouldhave because in food and dyes
and all the rest of it.
But I just didn't like you don'talways compute right and I
remember the first time somebodyeyed me and said, was that
(44:40):
tattoo vegan?
Like, thankfully.
You know, it took me like yearsto decide to get this tattoo
and I've only got a couple oftattoos, like I haven't really
gone down the tattoo road veryfar, but it's a really
meaningful one to me and I justremember thinking to myself oh,
that's what it feels like tomess up and to have somebody
call you on it, Even though Ihadn't messed up and I wasn't
(45:00):
actually being called on it.
I remember the feeling I hadwhen that question was asked and
I was just like you got to bekidding me right, like that's
not the point and it's like getover yourself.
Like, yeah, that sucks.
You know, in a perfect worldwhich we don't live in.
Like, yeah, okay, all of thesethings would be abundantly clear
at all times and all places,but are we there or not?
(45:22):
And so, yeah, just as anexample.
Ella (45:24):
Yeah, no, it's a great example.
I remember just being, you know, eight years old and you know
vegetarian.
At that point, and my kids inmy class would be like, well, if
you were on a deserted islandand you were going to die of
starvation and there was justone deer left, would you not
kill and eat that deer?
You know, like just trying toget me, get me to say something
that was unethical or say youknow so they could be like, well
(45:47):
, ha, you're not for real.
And yeah, being you know, veganfor as long as I have it's.
Yeah, the people are just readyto figure out what you're doing
wrong.
And if we're then feeding thatback to other people as vegans,
discouraging people, yeah, Icall that the adventure in
missing the point.
Stevan (46:10):
It's like, I mean, there's so many cliches, right,
like you miss the forest for thetrees or whatever.
Like you know, there's a lot ofways that this manifests itself
and we're all guilty of it atsome level of our life.
Sure, sure, right, and likeyeah, the reason I guess I can
articulate that as well as I canis because I have experienced
(46:30):
actual bad religion, like whenit's connected to God, and so
I've seen, like, the underbellyof awful religion and I've seen
the underbelly now of awfulveganism as well.
So, yeah, I mean, look, we'rethe Planet Expo.
You know there are hundreds ofbrands over the course of two
days and in different cities,and our premise is like look, if
(46:51):
you've got only one veganproduct amongst many, you can
bring that one vegan product.
Come, bring it to our event andlike but that's the product
you're displaying.
Now we take and lead with a lotof benefit of doubt and a lot
of trust and a lot of like hey,you've said you're going to come
and you're going to table andexhibit that particular product,
(47:12):
but you can't blame anentrepreneur when they have six
other products that might havehoney in them.
They're all kind of plant based, but they're not vegan right,
and then they have one productthat doesn't have honey in them.
Just this has happened.
I'm giving you a real lifeexample.
And they happen to say well,I've got, like you know, four
other products over here youmight be interested in those you
(47:32):
know and kind of forgetting,because they didn't necessarily
make this product becausethey're vegan.
They just happen to be a foodieand happen to make something
and they mentioned it.
And then the vegan police rightin like immediately email did
you know that one of your tablewas like promoting products with
honey in them?
And it's like, okay, youbreathe.
All of those things we talkedabout move our bodies, et cetera
(47:55):
, wait half an hour, wait anhour, reply the next day, kind
of thing and say, hey, thank youso much, we do our very best to
make sure that your experienceis safe, or sorry that this was
a troubling moment.
We weren't happy about it either.
That being said, you know soand so is a friend of ours and
you know they're trying reallyhard and they're not where we're
at in their journey andbasically go down the whole
(48:17):
thing and like really just tryto build empathy and like hit,
send and guess what?
Like almost nobody ever repliesback You're wrong, You're too
nice, You're too kind and loving, you know you're too
accommodating, Like nobody.
Like almost never do we getanother additional reply that
says no, you got that wrong,like it should just be, and it's
(48:38):
like okay, we did our job, Likewe tried.
Like you know, and sometimessomebody gets carried away
because they're not where we'reat and they have, you know.
Anyways, I don't need to repeatmyself, I could be redundant,
but like that's the thing, Right, it's a thing.
Ella (48:51):
It's like if we can all come from this idea that
everyone is doing the best theycan like with the tools that
they have at that moment andwith the experiences they're
coming, with their ownexperiences, their own education
, and every day is different andevery you know you go to the
next step and you learnsomething new and we're all
doing the best we can.
We can just, you know, leaninto that and give each other
(49:13):
the benefit of the doubt.
Like you said.
I think that's really powerfulfor bringing us together and I
think your event does such anincredible job at just being so
welcoming and so inviting andfun and bringing it all into one
space, so I can't wait to be apart of it.
I'm so grateful for you forputting it on, for being here,
(49:34):
for sharing about it.
Plantedlifecom is where peoplecan go for information.
Is there anything else you'dlike to leave our audience with?
Stevan (49:43):
Oh, Ella, thank you.
I think I've said a lot.
I'm grateful to be on yourpodcast.
Congrats on years of doing thisand doing it well.
Thank you to your audience fortuning in.
I hope you found somethinghelpful.
Ella (49:55):
Yes, hope to see you at the Plantit Expo 2024.
Thanks, steven.
Thanks.
Thanks for listening to thisweek's episode of Rise and
Thrive with me, ella Majors.
I truly hope you found itinspiring and, if you did,
please help me spread the wordby leaving a rating and review
(50:17):
on your favorite podcast playerand by sharing the show with
your friends.
As you probably know by now, mylife's purpose is to use my
voice to make this world a moreconscious and compassionate
place, and your reviews andshares make a huge impact.
And last, I'm getting a ton ofinsanely positive feedback about
my short and sweet monthlynewsletter called the Way Short,
(50:39):
for the Way Out is Through.
I give my top five latestbadass discoveries, insights and
explorations, like veganproducts and recipes.
I'm obsessed with books andshows I'm loving and workouts
that have me fired up.
Head on over to my website,ellamajorscom, to sign up and
(51:00):
check out all the other awesomeresources I have for you and
projects I'm involved with,including Hogs and Kisses Farm
Sanctuary, where our mission isto create the best life for farm
animals while inspiringcompassion for all living beings
.
Thanks a lot and I'll see youon the next one.
Perfection doesn't exist for anybody and it's not about
perfection in that, but it'sabout kind of making sure we're
oriented towards that and thensaying, look, here's the journey
, and you might be way over here, but so long as you're oriented
, and slowly, howeverpainstakingly slowly, you're
(00:20):
making your way towards thatcore, that center, and slowly
becoming more and more aware ofyourself and of your
surroundings and of the earthand kind of beginning to get a
greater sense of consciousnessand awareness and the
interconnec tivity of everything.
That's all a journey towardsthat and we're all at various
stages of that journey.
Ella (00:48):
Hey there and welcome to Rise and Thrive with me, Ella
Majors.
I created this high vibepodcast from a place of profound
curiosity, fierce compassionand the deep desire to connect
you with the wisdom ofinspirational wellness, health,
fitness and conscious leadersand change makers.
Here's to discovering our blindspots and embracing life as the
(01:10):
adventure it is.
The time is now.
Let's do this.
Hey, hey everyone, ella hereand today's episode is
particularly special because myincredible guest, steven
Mirkovich, is the co-owner ofthe Planted Expo, a trade show
(01:35):
platform and network designed tosupport you no matter where you
are on your plant-based journey, and I connected with Steven
months back and was honored whenhe invited me to speak at two
upcoming Planted Expo events.
We really hit it off, in partbecause he, too, has a history
(01:56):
of having a complicatedrelationship with food and his
body, which we explore a bit inthis episode.
Steven is truly insightful,spiritual, self-aware and a
driven individual who saysplant-based living literally
saved my life.
As a recovering food addict,I've journeyed through
(02:18):
overeating, junk food, veganismand finally found the
life-giving ways of a whole food, plant-based lifestyle.
I really hope that you can joinme at one of these Planted Expo
events, which I have no doubtis going to be an epic
experience.
You can learn more about it atplantedlifecom.
(02:39):
Just check it out and see allthe amazing speakers that are
going to be there.
One of the ones that I'll be atis Toronto, that's March 23 and
24.
The other that I'll be speakingat is Seattle on April 20 and
21.
And there's also a third eventin Vancouver in June.
So, again, check that out atplantedlifecom, and I hope
(03:04):
you'll stay tuned until the endof this episode, because the
last 10 minutes or so we divedeep into a really fascinating
and controversial topic.
Given that Steven is also apastor, I asked him his thoughts
about veganism sometimes beingcalled a religion, and his
(03:25):
response is quite juicy.
We could say All right, youguys, let's do this.
Steven, it's so great to haveyou on the show.
Thanks for being here.
Stevan (03:40):
Thanks, ella.
It's nice to be here, Feelsgood.
Ella (03:43):
Yeah, it does.
I want to first just let youknow how excited I am to be
speaking this year at theplanted expo in Toronto, in
Seattle.
So thank you for inviting me tocome.
Stevan (03:57):
Great thoughts, to be able to work with people like
yourself.
It really is about the voicesand the businesses that are
present.
We are just kind of like alittle bit of a backdrop.
We have some organizationalskills and event skills and
we're really committed to makingsure that plant-based,
sustainable, vegan future ismore and more accessible for
(04:21):
everybody.
So, yeah, very excited.
We're less than 60 days nowaway from Toronto, and then it's
back to back to back.
For us, right, it's Toronto andthen 30 days later, seattle and
then, just five weeks afterthat, vancouver.
So it's an exciting season forus.
We're really excited to be inSeattle and to be stateside.
That's a dream come true forour group.
Ella (04:41):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I want to get to talkingmore about that in a little bit,
but what I'm most interested iskind of the human side of all
of this, and really you and Iknow from just the research I've
done and listening to you onother podcasts and reading that
you're a very multi-layeredhuman being and I'm really
(05:02):
curious to know how you'llanswer a question that I asked
many of my guests and that isbeyond the bio right and all the
accomplishments and these bigevents that you put on who is
Steven?
Who are you Like, the beingthat is you?
How would you answer that?
Stevan (05:23):
Yeah, great question, thanks.
I think I'm innately curiousand also kind of innately pseudo
confident that I can learn alot, and also not particularly
fearful of maybe kind of some ofthe things that sometimes are
(05:45):
kind of poor fears of people'slives.
So I show up kind of bright eyedand bushy tailed Like oh wow,
what's that?
I have this capacity to seelots, and then become
hyper-focused on something thatintrigues me.
So I mean, as a kid that mightmanifest itself in something
(06:06):
like skateboarding or playingthe guitar or a sport.
It might have been a particularhistorical event or individual
that I found interesting for aseason and then I read and
devour and learn as much as Ican.
That's how it is like peoplehave described me.
(06:26):
I don't know, it always soundsweird to me.
I have a hard time fullyembracing it.
People have described me as abit of a Renaissance man.
So I'm at home dabbling andthat's the problem.
It's a bit of ajack-of-all-trades but master of
none reality for me.
I know just enough about saymusic to like.
(06:47):
If I was in a group of peopleand we were talking about some
like ways to maybe do musictogether, I would kind of like
not feel totally lost, althoughas soon as I'm in a room of like
professional musicians, I'mlike, oh dang, I'm way in over
my head.
But like cool amateurs I coulddo that.
And it's the same thing.
I bake professionally because Ibecame enamored with sourdough
(07:10):
baking and making sourdoughbread and people are like, oh,
where did you learn?
I was like, oh, I'm justself-taught.
Like one day I thought I wantto eat good bread again and want
to learn all the ins and outsof wheat and agriculture and how
it's grown and how it's made,and I just like read everything
and listen to everything andthen practice that.
Now I can bake professionally asa sourdough baker.
(07:31):
So just as an example like youasked who am I Just like, hyper
curious, willing to try thingsAt song level too.
Also, some people have calledme distracted, or there's
somebody who moves on from oneproject to the next rather
quickly, like.
Those are some of the shadowsides of that, where I don't
(07:52):
play guitar as much as I used to.
There's a lot of things I usedto do, a lot that I don't do
anymore because I was interestedfor a season and now that's a
part of my history, but it's notwho I am today.
So I don't know, that's along-winded answer to your
question, but it's a good one.
I'm also profoundly connectedto people Like I love being a
(08:13):
dad, those relationships with mythree kids.
They're all such unique peopleand so I'm always feeling like
I'm pushed outside of myeveryday comfort zone and I'm
having to kind of see myself inthem and then also see them for
who they're becoming.
And so I've got a 16, or likejust turned 16,.
I've got a 13 year old, justheaded into like the heart of
(08:35):
adolescence.
And then I've got a four yearold, sweet little girl who is,
you know, precocious andwonderful and reminding me of
all of those wonderful agesagain.
So there's quite a gap.
Yeah, I mean there's a lot ofthings.
Ella (08:48):
I could go on.
Stevan (08:49):
I guess you get people talking about themselves in a
way they go Like I don't knowhow I could say a lot.
Ella (08:54):
Yeah, well, no, I think in curiosity, the way I see it,
it's such a superpower.
I mean it just opens so manydoors.
And have you always beencurious?
Is that something like from dayone?
That's just been kind of hardof.
Who you are is curious, whichis great, yeah.
Stevan (09:11):
I think so that's amazing.
Ella (09:13):
Yeah, no, I love that.
I love that and I can relate alittle bit to the jack of all
trades.
You know, being an entrepreneur, being a solopreneur as well,
you know, you kind of learn allsorts of things and doors open
and you want to go through themand they might be very different
from the last door you wentthrough.
So, yeah, I get that.
I get that.
The other thing that I think Ican relate to you is an evolving
(09:38):
relationship with food and yourbody and intersections with
spirituality throughout ourlives and, if you're up for it,
I would love to move in thedirection of kind of walking
through the evolution of thoserelationships for you, maybe
starting in childhood.
I know that's a very kind ofbroad topic, but maybe you know
(10:02):
if you can kind of think back tochildhood and that relationship
you have with food and how thatstarted to shift and evolve.
I know you had the knee injuryin high school and all that, but
like, with that question, whatkind of comes to mind for you?
Stevan (10:16):
Yeah, I mean.
I mean my earliest memorieswith food are good ones, like in
general, I have experienced thepower of shared meals and food
together and the art of cookingand flavors and kind of all of
that ability to come foryourself and love and the
(10:39):
Intangible components of what itmeans to be human Into the
creative act of cooking and orbaking or whatever the case may
be.
So you know, like my memoriesare of my grandmother, like
those are my earliest friends.
They're people that loved me.
I knew they loved me.
And then you know, like thenext concentric circle of people
Anties and uncles and friends,etc.
(10:59):
They are coming from an EasternEuropean Culture, like and I
think it frankly, I just thinkit's a universal sort of human
thing that food is at the coreof many family Experiences.
It's certainly at the core of alot of like my loving
relationships, and so I feltcared for and I felt invited to
participate when I would sitthere and make, for example,
(11:23):
donuts with my mom.
We have these donuts in a servercreation culture called.
I'm so bad at server creationnowadays I'm pretty sure that's
what they're called, but it'sbasically fried dough.
They're like wild shaped.
They're not like what we could.
You know North American culture, what we, what we think of as a
(11:45):
donut is.
You know it's got a particularshape, it's got a hole or
whatever like this would be likea lot of fritter, where it
doesn't particularly have anyshape and it's not in and of
itself flavored, but it's afried dough and you cut it open
and you fill it with whateveryou wanted to fill it with and
they can be savory or sweet.
So just one.
This is kind of one reallyimportant memory and I can close
(12:08):
my eyes right now and I canpicture the stainless steel pot
filled with oil and I canpicture the yellow Kind of
Tupperware container that my momhad filled with this yeasty
dough and how she would kind ofscoop it up and put it in the.
Oil and then watching all thelittle bubbles from around, like
(12:31):
just classic frying of dough.
I'm of doughnuts and the smelland how much I was looking
forward to, you know, dustingthem in sugar and putting my
favorite cream cheese and jam inthere and like eating six of
them.
So you know, those are some ofmy earliest memories.
I remember feeling good again.
(12:52):
I remember it just being likefrequently tied to visitors,
people coming over that food asconnection, it seems like.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Those are some of my earliestmemories.
When did I start kind ofrecognizing like some level of I
don't know what the rightlanguage is, is it dysfunction,
or is it like a shadowy side toit, where it wasn't just Love
(13:17):
and appreciation and flavors andsmells.
That was much, much later inlife, like into young adulthood,
I couldn't put two and twotogether as like this idea like
I didn't have the something,that is to know that food was a
coping mechanism for me.
I certainly didn't have thelanguage early on in my like,
adolescence, teenage years, oreven like your college.
(13:38):
Maybe I started to figure itout in college like and we're
talking like really early 2000,like a long time ago now.
Yeah, like that's what I wouldhave started to recognize.
Like, oh wait, a minute, foodis taking on.
It's playing a different role inmy life now like there was now
food was becoming a little bitmore isolated, something I might
(14:01):
do by myself.
It was something that I mightobsess about and might be kind
of like Twirling around in mymind's eye and thinking about,
like, all of the like is thisgood for me?
Isn't this good for me?
You know, all of thoseadditional questions like what's
its nutritional value or how isthis gonna affect me.
(14:21):
And that was because I, as youmentioned, in my last year of
high school, gained like 65 or70 pounds of weight, and that
just goes to show you howtotally disconnected from my
body I was and From itsconnection to food.
Like I had a catastrophic kneeinjury, skateboarding like you
(14:43):
do when you're in high schooland.
I just kept eating.
I just kept eating the way I'dalways eaten, and yeah.
Ella (14:50):
I mean.
Stevan (14:51):
High school is hard at the best of times and if you
have a knee injury, you'reworking and you know whatever
high school Drama there is inone's life.
Yeah, I found myself in themidst of my great 12 year like
completely Unrecognizable tomyself, like having to buy a
(15:11):
whole new wardrobe becausenothing I owned In the previous
year fit me by the time.
Like it was gradual, but likeyou just sort of one day wake up
and you're like, oh, I amprofoundly ashamed Of who I am
and that was the beginning oflike.
I went probably very close totwo decades With almost nobody
(15:32):
outside of myself Seeing me withmy shirt off.
I profound shame.
Ella (15:39):
So this shame that you found was this all behind I mean
shame lives in silence, right?
So you are internalizing this.
What was that like to thepeople around you?
Were you able to hide that?
How did that manifest in theother things that you were doing
in your life?
Stevan (15:57):
Yeah, I mean mostly I dealt with the shame components
of it, you know, in isolation,yeah, by myself, beating myself
up you know vicious cycles ofyo-yo, dieting, and trying to
figure it out and workingthrough how to make sense of
this.
In my life, you know, werethere some people kind of
(16:18):
brought in at some level?
Sure, but frankly I hadn't evencome to grips with it in my own
self.
So, like, how do you reallybring I'm still coming to grips
with it but like, how do youreally bring somebody into that
when it feels so like it's justscary?
It was just like a reallyfearful thing and you feel out
(16:39):
of control and you don't reallyknow what just happened or how
it happened or what it means,like really for me.
I think now, as I reflect, likeI just didn't know what all of
it meant.
It's like why was this happening?
And at some level you can chalkit up to the like the logic of
it.
Right, like super active kidhas catastrophic knee injury,
was eating like an activeathletic kid, continued to do
(17:01):
that and then, you know, low andbehold, found themselves in a
awkward situation.
That was.
You know, the hole was too deepto dig out of or to let
yourself out, I dug too deep ahole or whatever.
But you know, I think there wasway more and it started sooner
than that.
Like you know, sometimes youcan mask your growing super fast
and adolescence, like I was.
(17:23):
You know you go through yourgrowth spurts, your athletic or
whatever, and I was probablyalready using food as a coping
mechanism long before that in mylife.
But because you're growing sofast and you're dealing with
life in the way that you'redealing with it as a kid and
it's just not a thing, you know,I don't know how far back to
trace any of that, right, butyeah, like, look, I got married
fairly young.
So you know my partner in life,like she was aware of my
(17:47):
struggles at some level.
But again, that's a differentpodcast.
That's a really complicatedconversation or how that all
played out.
But to say that it didn't playa role, like it was all
encompassing, like, yeah, eventhe most intimate of my
relationships were deeplyimpacted by this relationship to
food and relationship to mybody and my disconnection from
(18:09):
all of those things.
It played itself out in reallydramatic ways later on.
Like, yeah, I don't know howfar down the road I want to go
in this podcast with some ofthat.
But like it was a lot and mybest friends knew like they were
kind of along the like dietingjourney of like because all of
us you know we're all whateverguys that are, you know you hear
that story of like getting adad's spot or whatever, like
(18:32):
we're all.
We were all dealing with it inour own ways and so we're all
kind of on the surface talkingabout like, oh, don't eat that
junk food.
Or like what does it look liketo you know, whatever, be
healthier and exercise more, orwhatever.
Like all the whole dieting,diet of things.
Ella (18:46):
Yeah, Well, what's interesting too is that at this
point, you know you and veganand I believe 2003 is that
correct.
So, yeah, so there's this.
We're talking about layers herebecause it was my 20s from 2001
ish to the end of my 20s when Ihad my bulk of disordered
(19:07):
eating and distorted body imageand all of this stuff, and at
the same time, there's thispassion for veganism and this
passion for whole foods plantbased, which I know you went
through the vegan junk food andthen, around 2011, went the
whole foods plant based route,and so you had that all going on
at the same time.
And so how did that all fittogether for you and your mind
(19:30):
and at what point were you alsolike really promoting the vegan
lifestyle to others and how didthat all kind of connect, if
that makes sense?
Stevan (19:39):
Yeah, I mean it all does eventually convert, yeah, but
it certainly didn't converge atthe beginning.
So I was raised in a religiousenvironment where some exposure
to vegetarianism and veganismwas kind of part and parcel.
So I was raised the seventh dayAdventist and in my early or
late teens and early 20s Istudied to be an Adventist
(19:59):
pastor, a minister, like achurch leader.
And so because anybody that'sfamiliar with blue zones and has
seen the Netflix documentaryDan Butner or read any of his
works previously or, frankly,has delved into any of the
academic health literature onthe benefits of plant based,
vegetarian, vegan typelifestyles, is familiar with the
(20:20):
Adventist world and so I hadthat like up, even though as a
kid I was raised in an Adventisthome.
Most kind of like EasternEuropean or like international
Adventists are actually notvegan or vegetarian and like
that's one of the weird thingsthat people hear, like oh,
you're part of that church, thatmeans you're vegan or
vegetarian.
It's actually just a smallsubset of particularly white
(20:43):
Southern Californian, mostlyAdventists in and around Loma
Linda that really kind ofsubscribe to this in any sort of
to any great degree, got itAnyways.
But because of that connection,when I started to kind of worry
about my health and worry aboutmy well being, I was exposed to
people that were not Adventistbut whom Adventists adored.
(21:07):
Guys like Neil Barnard and JoelFurman and some of these other
characters that like said, hey,look, the scientific literature.
And the best of what we cansense is like, hey, this is a
good way to.
And it was all like Adventistssaying See, even the scientific,
non religious community saysthis is the best way to live.
And so I knew of these books andso I read Joel Furman's Eat to
(21:28):
Live in 2003.
And that's what really sort ofclinched it for me from, like
that nutritarian concept of likejust, I've always been
interested in this idea of likewhat's your best bang for buck?
You're like finances, like, andI was like, oh, like I can
think about food as a best bangfor buck.
Yeah, like what's going to giveme the most nutritious caloric
(21:50):
bang for buck?
And I was like, oh, this makesperfect sense to me, even though
it took me years to kind offigure out how that all pieces
together.
That concept was reallycompelling to me and so that's
why it was mostly for healthreasons.
The ethical side of veganism interms of, like, animal rights,
and then the environmentaljustice side, and the ecological
(22:11):
side came also after down theroad, so it was primarily sort
of health and human welfare.
That was the beginning there.
And so you said, like when didI start promoting veganism, like
from the animal rights.
Again, I've always loved animals, but like how it all connected,
like whether or not, forexample, whether or not I would
buy a vehicle with a leatherinterior, just as an example of
(22:35):
like veganism, right Likeveganism is more than just the
health and it's more than wholefood plant based.
And I think there's a lot ofwhole food plant based people
that, frankly, don't care iftheir car is leather or not,
they're not vegan.
They're vegan in their diet butthey're not necessarily vegan
in their lifestyle entirely.
And so that would havedescribed elements of myself for
a long time.
And I think there are manypeople like so.
(22:56):
When I say I was vegan in 2003,that was really when I mean,
like my diet was vegan, got itLike it took several years, you
know, for me to like say, well,you know what, I don't really
need to do that Like, if I everdo something like that, like I'm
going to make the vegan choice.
And that was because you know,once you start going down that
(23:16):
road, you just become aware ofit more and more, and I truly
believe that the more of thesethings that stack together, you
begin to realize like there'slike there's almost no reason
not to be plant based vegan inyour choices.
Just it's the lightest way,most compassionate way to engage
.
So, from the cooking healthperspective, like almost from
(23:37):
the get go, I was like hey, ifsomebody wants to listen and
I've got an opportunity to sharepart of my story.
I'll share it and then, youknow, all the other parts
started to fit together.
You know, over the course oftime, and probably in about the
same time 2011, 2012 is when,like the vegan shoe fully
dropped for me and I was like,oh, okay, like yeah, that's now
(23:58):
a way of life entirely.
So yeah.
And then the planted X followingthat kind of thing you know,
just an opportunity totransition professionally from
doing one thing professionallyin my life and then looking for,
like, what are some ways that Imight utilize some of the
things I learned in my kind ofprevious professional life and
what would I be passionate to doand like organizing large
(24:19):
events and you know, kind ofcurating and experience over the
course of a weekend wassomething I did professionally
for over a decade.
I thought, oh, a lot of thiswill transfer, so maybe I can do
that for the vegan community ina dovetail to well with kind of
my sense of working my waythrough the world.
Ella (24:38):
Well, at what point did things start to shift for you in
terms of your relationship withfood?
What was there a turning point?
Did it slowly like?
How did that happen for you?
Stevan (24:47):
Yeah, I mean yes, I frequently tell the story of
chasing my kid around.
So my oldest, I just said, was16, and he was a toddler like in
and around two years old, andwe were outside and he took up a
flight of stairs and just likeI kind of gave him a bit of a
head start but he just keptplopping through and I was like
making a beeline up those samequite a stairs trying to catch
(25:08):
him and at the top of the stairslike my heart was racing so and
I would have been likesomewhere in the neighborhood of
like 240, 250 pounds and I'monly like five foot 10.
So that's a lot of weight on afive foot 10 frame and I was
just like I can't do this and itwas just one of those things
like I had yo-yo'd and kind offigured it out and I've been
kind of pseudo, trying to eat ahealthy vegan lifestyle for
(25:31):
several years like nearly adecade at that point, but you
know, and never really clicked.
And then I was like man, if Idon't change something like I'm
not going to be able to be thedad I want to be for these kids
as they grow up.
And so I just decided that wasit.
And that was the first time Ikind of figured out a fair bit
(25:52):
of kind of removing the vastmajority of like the junk food
side of ultra processed, if youknow what I mean, and I dropped
50 pounds and kind of kept itoff and went from like hovering
through the vast majority of my20s in like that 250 pound range
to like hovering in and around200 pounds and felt a lot better
about myself and was able tokind of return to a level of
(26:13):
activity and a level of selfawareness around my body and
some of those things.
But yeah, not really fullypiecing together the emotional
side of it, yes, kind of puttingin some really strong
guardrails that were like yes,no, and it was just clear and
this was a no food and this wasa yes, and then over time the
(26:35):
yes and no foods changed and youknow, you kind of try to figure
that out a little bit, butreally that's the story and yeah
, it was that profound of amoment, believe it or not?
Ella (26:46):
And did you do the whole oil and sugar free thing?
No process Right Like.
Stevan (26:53):
I consumed enormous amounts of fruit.
For some people is like that'ssugar.
I was like, oh man, I'll do it.
Ella (27:00):
Yes, no.
Stevan (27:01):
But yes, I definitely did the no oil and, frankly, my
body actually responds to thisvery day, like if I feel like
I'm struggling or whatever, andI just want to see like
immediate results.
I think everybody needs tolearn to eat a little bit
intuitively and there's no onesize fits all whole food, plant
based approach.
And is all of oil good or bad?
Like I don't know enough, I'mignorant.
(27:23):
I just know how my bodyoperates and if I want to see
myself thin out but still eatenormous amounts of food, like
in terms of volume, like saladsand fruits and all of the other
things, then for me being oilfree or as low fat as possible
in terms of like added fats,I'll ask for the avocados and
cashews and nuts and that kindof thing.
(27:44):
But if I really want to justdrop, like just cutting cutting
all of the added fats which are,frankly, where the flavor comes
from, but yeah, like my bodyresponds immediately like.
I drop weights and I thin outsuper fast.
Ella (28:00):
What's in your toolkit now for dealing with stress and
negative emotions and thingsthat would have, in the past,
derailed you completely, insteadof turning to food?
Stevan (28:14):
Right, yeah, I mean, look, this is going to sound
like your classic self-help,like all the latest podcasts and
literature and newsletters andall the rest of it, but you know
.
I have turned to things likebreath work and yoga is an
important tool in my toolkit.
So anything that slows me downmy mind races right and when I'm
(28:37):
in a stressful mode I can gointo like problem solving and
just getting more active andgetting busier, like if I just
do this, like I will, you know,whittle away at this to-do list
and I'll feel better aboutmyself, and it's like it's the
complete opposite of what Ishould be doing, which is like
saying no and basically anythingthat declutters my mind and
(28:59):
allows me to be present tomyself is the key de-stressor,
and that's easier said than done.
But I have some good new habitsaround that that is very
helpful for me.
I still have some strongboundaries around what's
available to me.
If I should choose, and that'sthe thing, right.
Like you know, miss Ella, foodis one of those things, unlike
(29:21):
alcohol, unlike gambling, unlikesex, unlike a lot of things,
Like if you have a problematicrelationship to something, there
are a lot of things you couldjust say I'm never doing that
again and you could be abstinent.
You know, should one chooseright?
But with food you can't beabstinent, right, like unless
you're open to just likeperishing.
So it is a constantrenegotiation.
(29:42):
And then, because I'm such asocial creature and actually
really believe in the culturalsignificance of food, I believe
that we should cook, I believethat we should allow it to be
the culinary arts.
I think that's a good thing.
I think food should bebeautiful, it should smell
beautiful, it should tastebeautiful.
You know, I'm not the likesuper pragmatic guy when it
(30:02):
comes to food.
Like I really do believe in allof that side of it.
So because of that, because I'ma social creature, because I
believe in the capacity for foodto bring people together and I
also want to be like super nojudgment.
That means I want to be able toallow things to be around me
and people to be around me, andflavors and food choices.
That may not be the best for me,given my history and everything
(30:26):
that I wrestle with, but thatdoesn't necessarily mean that
it's inherently not a foodoption for everybody.
Like there's lots of people thatcan consume these things in the
ways that they consume them andhave it be a healthy choice or
an appropriate choice.
So maybe healthy is not theright language to use there and
that's just not the right way toframe it, but an appropriate
(30:46):
choice, and I want to be able tobe in those spaces with those
people, whether they're my kidsor my friends or just anybody.
I want to be able to be in thatkind of environment and say
this makes sense, like this isokay.
That does come with the likealways being able to negotiate
(31:06):
those scenarios, you know, inappropriate ways, and I go back
and forth in my capacity to dothat, wow.
And so you know this is still ajourney I'm on.
This is not like I've got allthese tools in my toolkit and
now the struggle is over and I'mon the other side and I've like
got whatever you know, somelevel of mastery over this.
Ella (31:28):
I don't know that.
Stevan (31:28):
I have mastery, far from it.
It feels like some days I'mstruggling as much as ever, but
in general the trajectory isthis way right.
Like to an episode close butlike still, you know, like, if I
wake up at the start of itevery year and say, like what is
my relationship to my body,what is my relationship to my
own sense of self worth, what ismy relationship to food, how do
(31:50):
I negotiate social circles andall the rest of it, I would just
say, in general, I'm stillheaded in the right direction,
which is really encouraging tome it's certainly not a linear
path Like that's.
Ella (32:00):
Yeah.
Stevan (32:02):
It hasn't been for me anyways.
Ella (32:04):
No, and it hasn't been for me either.
There's still some triggerfoods and I have to, yeah, admit
what some of the ones for meare vegan butters in general, I
don't buy those.
There's something about, likeyou know, some of the vegan
cheeses and I think it goes backto that very intense.
I mean there's a lot of fat,there's a lot of coconut oil in
(32:24):
it, a lot of those cheeses.
So, yeah, there's still sometrigger foods that I'm aware of
and setting those boundaries,and in more stressful months
things are harder and it's yeah,it's a journey that's gonna
last forever, and more we canembrace that, the better.
Speaking of vegan cheeses, I amgonna try a bunch of them at
(32:45):
Planted Expo.
At what point did you?
How did Planted Expo come to be?
Stevan (32:51):
Yeah, it was some friends of mine that actually
started it in 2014 in Vancouverand back then it was known as
the Veg Expo and it was a oneday event and it was something
that slowly grew, you know, asthe plant based kind of vegan
niche you know was also comingof age and social media and all
(33:11):
the rest of it, you know it grewalongside of it At some point
or another.
Those friends were it justwasn't the thing for them
anymore and they'd asked me kindof three years in a row, like
would you consider taking thisover?
And kind of buying the businessfrom us?
And I wasn't in a place, bothprofessionally, you know, family
wise, like just on a lot oflevels.
I wasn't in a place until 2019when I finally said, hey, is
(33:35):
that still an option?
Because I'm kind of looking fora new gig and something new to
do and I have some ideas abouthow I would do this differently
than you guys have been doing it, but I think like sort of based
in the same premise of likebringing people together and
brands together to give peoplean opportunity to intersect with
the best of what the plantbased and vegan business
community has to offer to thewider consumer and so, yeah,
(33:59):
that all sort of transpired, youknow, almost five years ago,
but you know we dealt with thepandemic in the midst of that.
Anyways, yeah, so rebranded itfrom the Veg Expo to the planted
Expo, just because, again,veganism, as we talked about
earlier in the podcast, is a lotbroader than simply vegetables
and food, like a lot of otherthings that are part of the
(34:19):
plant based vegan lifestyle, andit seemed like that was the
nomenclature, the language thatwas being used.
More and more, a lot ofproducts and services were being
branded as plant based asopposed to vegan, and we can go
back and forth on all of thepros and cons of all of that
stuff, but the bottom line isthis approach that reduces and
(34:40):
eliminates the harm done toanimals and hopes to embrace the
most sustainable ecological andagricultural practices and, to
the best of our ability, is ashealth promoting as possible.
Those are all things thatmattered a lot, and so we've got
this amazing team.
Frankly, look, the planted Expois the team.
(35:01):
Yeah, I get to be on thesepodcasts and sure, the title is
like majority owner, but I feellike I'm just one person in the
midst of an amazing group ofpeople that come together and
their pros, and they know whatthey're doing and they love it,
and they're totally dedicated tomaking sure that when somebody
signs on, either and buys, youknow, a $20 ticket to come to
(35:24):
the events and chow down and buyand get great deals, or they're
a brand that's looking toengage with their core the core
person that is looking topurchase these things and or,
you know, incorporate more andmore vegan, plant based products
into their life.
Our job is to make sure thatit's an awesome event, which is
why we bring in amazing voiceslike yours, ella, so that you
know people come and say, wow,somebody like her has been vegan
(35:46):
for how long, and she's whatthat's so inspiring.
So it's kind of pulling as muchof that positive energy into a
room over the course of aweekend and saying this is
awesome, this is amazing.
We're amazing, but like it'sonly amazing because you have
the right people in the room andthe right brands in the room.
Ella (36:03):
So yeah, and I love how you have such a good mix of all
these different brands and allthese people getting to come and
try these foods of alldifferent types, and then having
these amazing speakers andChuck Carroll interviewing Dr
Michael Greger how fabulous isthat.
Do you have some things thatyou're really excited about for
(36:25):
this year?
Stevan (36:26):
Yeah, believe it or not, I'm actually really excited
we're doing a small little veganfashion show on the Saturday of
Toronto and Vancouver.
It's sadly not coming toSeattle, but, yeah, fun.
The visual that he started thevegan fashion show is actually
one of the speakers at our eventand said why don't we do like a
small vegan fashion showactivation as part of my time on
(36:46):
stage and we'll bring somebrands together and like do a
small version of what could be amuch larger.
So I think that's really cool.
That's something we've neverdone before and I think it
speaks to the maturity of what'savailable now.
Like I don't know how intovegan fashion you are, ella, but
there are like some really coolproducts out there that mimic
(37:10):
leather, mimic wool, mimic allkinds of things that are cool,
and there's amazing designersputting all of their creative
fashionista powers behind thesethings, and so we're pretty
pumped about that.
I think that's an interestingangle that we've never done
before and I think it's going toadd another layer to what we're
doing, not that other veganfashion brands haven't been
there before, but to like reallyfeature it that way.
(37:31):
I think it's cool.
Yeah, I mean obviously the bigVIP event in Toronto with Chuck
and Dr Gregor is going to beawesome.
Like you know, they're bothsuch characters.
I think they're going to begreat on stage together.
That's really fun.
And just to see, you know, seethe maturation of some of the
brands that were just likeemerging brands a year ago, and
then seeing all the new products, seeing some of the new voices
(37:53):
that are on our stage Every yearhas got like kind of that core
energy to it, and then thetwists and turns of you know how
one specific event may cometogether.
Those things have gotten mereally excited.
Ella (38:06):
Yeah, I love that this is a little shifting back, but no,
one's giving your spiritualbackground, your religion and
all this.
I know one of the things thatpeople sometimes get really
worked up about is some peoplecalling veganism a religion.
I'm just curious, kind of, whatyour thoughts are on that.
Stevan (38:28):
So the etymology of the word religion.
R-e is actually a prefix.
It's the prefix that we see ina lot of things to renew
something and to re-ligsomething.
Lig is actually the root forligaments, right?
So what does a ligament do inour body?
It makes two bones worktogether, right?
So you've got ligaments in yourelbows, in your shoulders, in
(38:51):
your knees, and it connects twomajor bones in your body and
makes that possible.
So to re-lig something inreligion in its pure sense is to
reconnect, in this sense, youknow, humankind to the
transcendent.
So I think it's actually apositive word, but you have to
reclaim it, much like the LGBTQplus community has taught us to
(39:12):
reclaim the word queer, you know, which can be a very positive
word if understood correctly.
So in that sense, I thinkveganism can be religious in
that positive sense.
But when religion becomes abouterecting unnecessary walls and
(39:33):
drawing lines with those wallsregarding who is in and who is
out, that's when it becomesproblematic, because then it
begins to create and it beginsto other people and say you are
not like me.
And so if veganism behaves inthat religious setting like sort
of bad religion, then I thinkwe are doing ourselves a great
(39:54):
disservice as a movement when weare actually doing the opposite
of re-ligging or reconnectingthings.
We are disconnecting things,and so if we erect massive walls
and we say you're only allowedinto our special group, we're
vegans.
If you do all of these thingsperfectly and if you don't, if
you renege on any of thesethings, or if you occasionally
(40:16):
slip up, or if you are only thisfar along in your journey and
not as far along as I am, well,you're not actually vegan and
you're not in.
I know what's in and I'm goingto guard the gate and here's the
wall and jump over it, climbover it whatever it takes to do
it, but until you climb over andyou meet my criteria, you're
out.
Former preacher.
(40:38):
A little thing there.
But just imagine, instead takeall of those walls and instead
lay them flat and say, hey, look, there's a path over there,
there's a yellow brick road,there's a path towards something
.
What is that thing that we'reall sort of walking towards?
Oh, reconnection with ourselves, oh, reconnection with the
(40:59):
earth, oh, reconnection with thetranscendent, oh, reconnection
with the animals.
What is the core of that?
Well, it's compassion, it'sempathy, it's the capacity to
see things for what they reallyare.
And so when veganism, orplant-based living or health or
whatever, it sort of sees it asa continuum, as something that
we are all working towards, andthat perfection doesn't exist
(41:20):
for anybody and it's not aboutperfection in that, but it's
about kind of making sure we'reoriented towards that and then
saying, look, here's the journey, and you might be way over here
, but so long as you're oriented, and slowly, however
painstakingly slowly, you'remaking your way towards that
(41:42):
core, that center, and slowlybecoming more and more aware of
yourself and of yoursurroundings and of the earth,
and like kind of beginning toget a greater sense of
consciousness and awareness andthe interconnectivity of
everything.
That's all a journey towardsthat, and we're all at various
stages of that journey, and soif veganism can be that where we
(42:04):
say, hey, look like we want toreduce animal harm lower that
wall and say this is a journeytowards that and it's a path and
there's arrows and there's waymarkers and landmarks, and say,
oh yeah, and here's the thing.
Like you've traveled, you'vehiked, you've walked around the
lake or you've gone from A to B,and when you're like way far
away, you're like where are weeven going?
(42:25):
Like what are we looking for?
And then as you get closer andcloser and closer, you're like,
oh man, that is so gorgeous,that is so beautiful.
That lake, that vista, thattree, that relationship, that
experience, that food, thatsexual encounter, whatever it is
like.
You get there and you're like,oh my gosh, this is amazing.
But until you get there, youdon't always know what it is you
(42:46):
were after.
And so I believe and this iswhat Planet X4 stands for is
like as inclusive as possible,as absolutely inclusive and
possible.
And then when we say here areour boundaries, we express those
boundaries as pathways, not asreally difficult to scale walls.
(43:07):
I don't know if I've explainedthis well.
I hope I have, but that's theproblem.
So sometimes veganism functionslike bad religion, where we
just like in and out, either oryou're good or you're bad,
you're evil, you know, and it'slike that's really broken and
painful and causes a lot of harm.
So let's not do that.
(43:27):
Let's instead just see peoplefor who they are, see them as
human, see them as worthy of ourcompassion, love and empathy,
and be open-handed.
Ella (43:37):
I think you said that better than I've heard in a long
time.
That was really beautiful.
Thank you for that message.
I think it's so powerful.
I mean, the statistics showlike the percentage of the
population that's vegan is notactually increasing very quickly
at all, and I think it is partof that.
And we hear you're not reallyvegan.
What's you know?
(43:57):
Oh, you did that.
What are you calling yourself avegan for?
And it's like whoa.
Let's open our arms and ourhearts to everyone who's curious
.
Let's get them on board.
Let's welcome them with openarms.
Isn't that what we want,instead of criticizing and, yeah
, putting those walls up?
So?
Stevan (44:18):
right.
So like, for example, I waiteda really long time to get this
tattoo and thankfully, I waitedlong enough to realize that
there was a difference between avegan tattoo and a non-vegan
tattoo.
I didn't know this.
Like I've been a vegan foryears, I didn't realize that
there were inks and I shouldhave because in food and dyes
and all the rest of it.
But I just didn't like you don'talways compute right and I
remember the first time somebodyeyed me and said, was that
(44:40):
tattoo vegan?
Like, thankfully.
You know, it took me like yearsto decide to get this tattoo
and I've only got a couple oftattoos, like I haven't really
gone down the tattoo road veryfar, but it's a really
meaningful one to me and I justremember thinking to myself oh,
that's what it feels like tomess up and to have somebody
call you on it, Even though Ihadn't messed up and I wasn't
(45:00):
actually being called on it.
I remember the feeling I hadwhen that question was asked and
I was just like you got to bekidding me right, like that's
not the point and it's like getover yourself.
Like, yeah, that sucks.
You know, in a perfect worldwhich we don't live in.
Like, yeah, okay, all of thesethings would be abundantly clear
at all times and all places,but are we there or not?
(45:22):
And so, yeah, just as anexample.
Ella (45:24):
Yeah, no, it's a great example.
I remember just being, you know, eight years old and you know
vegetarian.
At that point, and my kids inmy class would be like, well, if
you were on a deserted islandand you were going to die of
starvation and there was justone deer left, would you not
kill and eat that deer?
You know, like just trying toget me, get me to say something
that was unethical or say youknow so they could be like, well
(45:47):
, ha, you're not for real.
And yeah, being you know, veganfor as long as I have it's.
Yeah, the people are just readyto figure out what you're doing
wrong.
And if we're then feeding thatback to other people as vegans,
discouraging people, yeah, Icall that the adventure in
missing the point.
Stevan (46:10):
It's like, I mean, there's so many cliches, right,
like you miss the forest for thetrees or whatever.
Like you know, there's a lot ofways that this manifests itself
and we're all guilty of it atsome level of our life.
Sure, sure, right, and likeyeah, the reason I guess I can
articulate that as well as I canis because I have experienced
(46:30):
actual bad religion, like whenit's connected to God, and so
I've seen, like, the underbellyof awful religion and I've seen
the underbelly now of awfulveganism as well.
So, yeah, I mean, look, we'rethe Planet Expo.
You know there are hundreds ofbrands over the course of two
days and in different cities,and our premise is like look, if
(46:51):
you've got only one veganproduct amongst many, you can
bring that one vegan product.
Come, bring it to our event andlike but that's the product
you're displaying.
Now we take and lead with a lotof benefit of doubt and a lot
of trust and a lot of like hey,you've said you're going to come
and you're going to table andexhibit that particular product,
(47:12):
but you can't blame anentrepreneur when they have six
other products that might havehoney in them.
They're all kind of plant based, but they're not vegan right,
and then they have one productthat doesn't have honey in them.
Just this has happened.
I'm giving you a real lifeexample.
And they happen to say well,I've got, like you know, four
other products over here youmight be interested in those you
(47:32):
know and kind of forgetting,because they didn't necessarily
make this product becausethey're vegan.
They just happen to be a foodieand happen to make something
and they mentioned it.
And then the vegan police rightin like immediately email did
you know that one of your tablewas like promoting products with
honey in them?
And it's like, okay, youbreathe.
All of those things we talkedabout move our bodies, et cetera
(47:55):
, wait half an hour, wait anhour, reply the next day, kind
of thing and say, hey, thank youso much, we do our very best to
make sure that your experienceis safe, or sorry that this was
a troubling moment.
We weren't happy about it either.
That being said, you know soand so is a friend of ours and
you know they're trying reallyhard and they're not where we're
at in their journey andbasically go down the whole
(48:17):
thing and like really just tryto build empathy and like hit,
send and guess what?
Like almost nobody ever repliesback You're wrong, You're too
nice, You're too kind and loving, you know you're too
accommodating, Like nobody.
Like almost never do we getanother additional reply that
says no, you got that wrong,like it should just be, and it's
(48:38):
like okay, we did our job, Likewe tried.
Like you know, and sometimessomebody gets carried away
because they're not where we'reat and they have, you know.
Anyways, I don't need to repeatmyself, I could be redundant,
but like that's the thing, Right, it's a thing.
Ella (48:51):
It's like if we can all come from this idea that
everyone is doing the best theycan like with the tools that
they have at that moment andwith the experiences they're
coming, with their ownexperiences, their own education
, and every day is different andevery you know you go to the
next step and you learnsomething new and we're all
doing the best we can.
We can just, you know, leaninto that and give each other
(49:13):
the benefit of the doubt.
Like you said.
I think that's really powerfulfor bringing us together and I
think your event does such anincredible job at just being so
welcoming and so inviting andfun and bringing it all into one
space, so I can't wait to be apart of it.
I'm so grateful for you forputting it on, for being here,
(49:34):
for sharing about it.
Plantedlifecom is where peoplecan go for information.
Is there anything else you'dlike to leave our audience with?
Stevan (49:43):
Oh, Ella, thank you.
I think I've said a lot.
I'm grateful to be on yourpodcast.
Congrats on years of doing thisand doing it well.
Thank you to your audience fortuning in.
I hope you found somethinghelpful.
Ella (49:55):
Yes, hope to see you at the Plantit Expo 2024.
Thanks, steven.
Thanks.
Thanks for listening to thisweek's episode of Rise and
Thrive with me, ella Majors.
I truly hope you found itinspiring and, if you did,
please help me spread the wordby leaving a rating and review
(50:17):
on your favorite podcast playerand by sharing the show with
your friends.
As you probably know by now, mylife's purpose is to use my
voice to make this world a moreconscious and compassionate
place, and your reviews andshares make a huge impact.
And last, I'm getting a ton ofinsanely positive feedback about
my short and sweet monthlynewsletter called the Way Short,
(50:39):
for the Way Out is Through.
I give my top five latestbadass discoveries, insights and
explorations, like veganproducts and recipes.
I'm obsessed with books andshows I'm loving and workouts
that have me fired up.
Head on over to my website,ellamajorscom, to sign up and
(51:00):
check out all the other awesomeresources I have for you and
projects I'm involved with,including Hogs and Kisses Farm
Sanctuary, where our mission isto create the best life for farm
animals while inspiringcompassion for all living beings
.
Thanks a lot and I'll see youon the next one.
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