February 8, 2024 • 58 mins
Many find themselves at the pinnacle of professional success only to discover that the view is less satisfying than as they'd imagined.
In this episode with Jerry Colonna, we discuss how more of us can contribute to a world that cherishes connection and unity above all.
We explore how true satisfaction and leadership arises from self-awareness and we stress the significance of doing our inner work.
We talk about how the recognition of our ancestral heritage serves as a bridge for fostering a sense of belonging and understanding.
An intriguing part focuses on the unspoken, the forgotten, and the truths about societal and familial histories that often go unaddressed.
The conversation is an exercise in introspection, a deeply necessary step toward cultivating empathy and fostering leadership that seeks to alleviate suffering.
Jerry Colonna is a leading executive coach who uses the skills he learned as a venture capitalist to help entrepreneurs. He is a co-founder and CEO of Reboot, the executive coaching and leadership development company, host of the Reboot Podcast, and author of Reunion: Leadership and the Longing to Belong and Reboot: Leadership and the Art of Growing Up.
He was a partner with JPMorgan Partners (JPMP), the private equity arm of JP Morgan Chase. He joined JPMP from Flatiron Partners, which he launched in 1996 with partner, Fred Wilson. Flatiron became one of the most successful, early-stage investment programs in the New York City area.
=======================
00:00 Two years since our last episode together (Ep. 84 - Reboot)
01:10 The pain that comes from succeeding
2:07 Success and it’s relationship to some of the challenges people experience
05:00 Face the tiger that is chasing you
08:27 “How have I been complicit in creating the conditions I say I don’t want”?
10:30 One reason to do the inner work on yourself
13:58 The danger of feeling like you have a gaping hole inside
15:12 Proactively creating conditions for systemic love, safety, and belonging
17:43 Deep and powerful leadership goes beyond the realm of creating sound Companies that create meaningful products the world needs
23:13 Taking a stance against Othering and Dehumanization
28:40 Show empathy with people by first understanding the true stories of your Ancestors
34:56 Who gets dismembered from a family tree?
41:56 Who benefits from war, destruction, and dehumanization?
43:54 Why do certain conditions persist?
46:00 We’re all really good at sweeping things under the rug
52:22 Four questions Jerry asks himself and the CEO's or Founders he coaches
=======================
Please subscribe and tell one person about this episode.
The more ratings and reviews the podcast has, the more new people will know about it.
=======================
Instagram
YouTube
Twitter
Thank You!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Jerry Colonna, it's so good to see you.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
A rjun It's great to see you again.
As we were saying just beforewe started recording, it's been
about two years since we lastsaw each other and last spoke
Exactly and actually almost twoyears to the day.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
So the universe has brought us together.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation for a while
now.
I already had your book ReunionTeed Up and then when I heard
you on with Jason Calacanis onhis this Week in Startups
podcast, I reached out to you.
I was like, look, let's see ifwe can get Jerry back on.
(00:35):
And for anyone who actuallyheard that conversation that you
have with Jason, you definitelyhave this unique insight.
You have a unique perspectiveas someone who can truly and
actually talk about and speakabout the pain that comes from
succeeding.
As a former VC, as a coach now,for about 27, 28 years, you
(01:00):
come with this experience and somaybe we can start there with
just your story around that,around just the pain that comes
from succeeding.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Well, part of the how about we just say the pain in
general?
Sure, and it comes to mindbecause I was just finished up a
coaching call with a client who, wisely, took the month of
January off and went scubadiving with his father and took
(01:36):
a real vacation for the firsttime and only to come back to I
don't know about nine differentdisasters in the manufacturing
of the product.
I remember saying to him wouldyou like a side of nails with
that bag of glass you're eating?
And we both laughed becauseit's hard.
(02:00):
But to your point, I think thatthe way to go into the question
of success and its relationshipto some of the challenges that
people experience, I think thatthe best way to think about it
is just how surprising it is forpeople when they hear that
(02:26):
someone is externally successfuland they've built and sold a
company, they are sitting on apile of money, that somehow,
despite all that we have beentaught from fairy tales to
(02:47):
religious tracks, despite thefact that we've been taught
repeatedly that money doesn'tbuy happiness, we're still
surprised.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Now I wanna be clear money doesn't necessarily buy
sadness.
But what it doesn't do is itdoesn't erase the need to do
your own work.
And you're right, I mean.
The somewhat well-known storyfor me was that I was immensely
(03:24):
successful in my 30s as an earlystage VC in New York at the
first way of internet investing,which was arguably the most fun
because everything we did wasbrand new.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
And we're talking like the Yahoo days for people
listening.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
the Yahoo days GeoCities maybe before that
Pre-Yahoo exactly, and lookingat things like being able to
sell advertising for CPMs at$15,000, it was crazy.
And, despite the successes thatI had, the things that drove me
(04:07):
to be depressed throughout mostof my childhood remain the
things that made me depressed,even though I ostensibly had
enough money not to worryanymore.
Right, and the shock of thatand we see stories of this over
and over again.
(04:27):
You mentioned my conversationwith Jason.
Jason was particularly close toTony Shea, for example, from
Zappos.
The shock is the thing thatactually surprises me the most.
Now I mean, I'm 60, now I'vebeen doing this a long time, as
one friend said to me just a fewweeks ago 40 years fuck you, 40
(04:51):
years.
And it just still amazes methat we are collectively
surprised that we still have todo our inner work, we still have
to do the things.
We still have to turn around touse a Buddhist image for a
(05:15):
moment we still have to turnaround and face the tiger that's
chasing us, rather than justkeep running and running and
running and thinking that a bagof gold is gonna save us.
It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
No, that's true.
So I mean in your 2019 book.
I mean, the reality is thatwork on yourself.
It takes a lot of effort.
It's probably one of thereasons people fail to really
explore who they truly are.
They fail to explore who theybelong to in terms of their
ancestors and their lineage, andthey probably fail to explore
(06:02):
where they come from as a resultof it.
It's just extra work, it seemslike, but the reality is that
this is the type of work that'srequired if you want to go
deeper into self-discovery, godeeper into growth and
definitely go deeper intoleadership.
And in your 2019 book, reboot,that's where you suggest the
leaders of today's world aregonna be the people who learn to
(06:26):
really do the work on theirwounds, because when you do the
work on your wounds, you have asmaller chance of taking that
out on other people, and so thatwhole book is about asking
yourself, who am I?
And really getting into that.
And then in this new book,reunion, leadership and the
(06:47):
Longing to Belong, you're takingthat question and you're going
a little bit deeper, because nowyou're asking, okay, who's am I
?
And so, again, this question isin the context of
self-discovery, it's in thecontext of leadership.
It's in the context of growth,and so I'd be curious, as you
did your own work on yourself,how do you, jerry Colonna,
(07:09):
address the who's am I question?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, can I say a few things before we go to that
question?
I'm more than happy to go tothat question.
The way I would reframe alittle bit both the description
of Rebute my first book from2019, and then now Reunion.
You're right, it's aninvitation to self-inquiry, it's
(07:39):
an invitation to self-discoveryin both books, and you're right
that I assert that it's reallyimportant.
In fact, what I assert inRebute is that better humans
make better leaders.
And again, you're correct inthe assertion that most people
(08:05):
choose not to do this work.
They see it as too difficult.
But let's go all the way backto even the first thing that you
were talking about, which,arguably, is really about
suffering.
And if you go back, if youremember, from my first book,
(08:28):
there's an infamous questionthat I coined maybe 18, 20 years
ago how have I been complicitin creating the conditions I say
I don't want?
And that question is repeatedaround the internet so many
times that I wish I hadtrademarked it so I'd make a
little bit of money off of it.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I got to say I honestly ask myself that
question at least weekly, if notalmost daily, because there's
so many layers to that question.
But ever since reading yourbook I've been asking myself
that a lot.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Well, the thing that people who dive deep on that
question, that the thing that Ihope that they do, is that they
approach the question withcompassion and curiosity rather
than guilt or shame.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
A boy who has self-hate.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, there is a self-development field, a mantra
that actually very subtlyconveys a message that you are
broken.
If you walk through if suchthings exist anymore physical
(09:46):
bookstores I'm teasing, ofcourse they exist and you stop
in the self-help section,there's an unmistakable aura of
you are broken and read my bookso that you can be fixed,
whether it's to lose weight orto stop procrastinating, or even
(10:08):
to not feel self-hatred in aweird way.
And the thing that I thinkpeople lose when they come at it
from that angle and this istrue for both Reboot and Reunion
my new book I think the thingthat should motivate us to do
(10:32):
this work is the wish to notfeel bad anymore.
If we go back to your firstquestion and we go back to okay,
jerry was successful and thenhe felt suicidally depressed.
And again, it's not that forthe first time in my life I felt
(10:56):
suicidally depressed.
The truth is, I felt suicidallydepressed most of my childhood,
and so the things that werecompelling me to feel these
feelings remained, despite theexternal success.
And so questions like how haveI been complicit in creating the
(11:19):
conditions they say I don'twant?
And questions like that arereally designed, bizarrely, to
alleviate suffering.
To put it another way, thequest to be a better human, as I
talk about in better humansmake better leaders is really a
quest to alleviate suffering,and the really intriguing thing
(11:44):
is, if I work bravely atalleviating my own suffering,
then I am less likely to createtoxic wastelands around me and
hurt other people, which, in asense, reboot is about
(12:06):
alleviating my suffering, andreunion is really about a
process, a set of steps that onecan take to create the
conditions for less sufferingfor those around us.
Right right Now.
You're right, there is thisangle in.
There's a part of the processthat I talk about which is about
(12:30):
reuniting with our past,reuniting with our ancestors,
reuniting with the truth of whatwe're about.
But the thread that ties bothbooks together and, most
importantly, the thread thatties all of that I have learned
in these last 30 years, is thatif you really want to feel
(12:57):
better, you have to go inward.
And, arjun, you know what?
I use the phrase radicalself-inquiry.
That's the radical part of this, because we live in a
capitalistic society that says,if you really want to feel
better by this deodorant, if youreally want to feel better, you
(13:22):
should drive this car, if youreally want to feel better, you
should have flat abs.
And you know what?
It's all a fucking lie.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
All of that is external.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
All of that.
You can literally have it alland still feel miserable.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Like with a gaping hole inside.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
yeah, and if you then combine that person with a
gaping hole inside with power,look out, look out.
I will hurt every living beingaround me in a bid, unsuccessful
(14:15):
, vain bid to make myself feelbetter.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah, and that even goes to even just the idea of
separating from others likeothering others.
I mean it's all kind of builtin.
You create separation, youcreate the toxic puddles around
you.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, You're referencing an important concept
in my new book, reunion, inwhich what I'm trying to do
there, what I set out to do, wasprimarily answer for myself,
but then offer this to the world.
(15:00):
What is a person'sresponsibility, beyond doing my
own internal work to alleviatemy suffering?
What is my responsibility?
Not just to alleviate thesuffering of those with whom I
work, but to actively andproactively create conditions of
(15:23):
what I call systemic belonging,this sort of root wish that we
all have to feel love, safetyand belonging, to feel that we
are included, that there's anequity yeah, so that those
around me can feel worthwhile,safe, that they somehow matter
(15:55):
in the world.
What is our responsibility asthose of us who hold power?
Because I'll name it, I'm awhite, cisgender, straight man
with power and privilege, and Ilive in a society that really
asks very little of me as itrelates to caring about other
(16:18):
people.
Yeah, interesting and maybe Ihave a moral and ethical
responsibility to give a shit,not maybe I kid.
I absolutely have a moral andethical responsibility to give a
shit, and so that's whatreunion is about.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, and that's interesting because in that and
picking it up from your book youtalk about, maybe in this day
and age, a way to measure thesuccess of a leader is to
measure how much the peoplearound them feel like they
belong.
And so, going back to that ideaof love and safety and
(17:06):
belonging, if you can measurethat and people around a
particular quote unquote leadercan feel like they truly belong,
then that might be a reflectionof the leader themselves and
that might be a way to measuretheir success in terms of how
they're leading and what kind ofwork they've done on themselves
.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, I think that I want to be clear what I'm
demanding demanding is a toughword what I'm suggesting is that
, above and beyond the very realand necessary work of building
(17:46):
fiscally sound, profitable,sustainable organizations and
businesses, above and beyondthat is this other realm, and in
that realm is a realm of deepand powerful leadership that
(18:07):
thinks about the future, thatthinks about what I would refer
to as our descendants, thatthinks about the people who have
less power than we do.
You know, I've been out talkingabout this book for a couple of
months now and I get a lot ofpushback not a lot.
I get much less pushback than Ithought I would get.
(18:29):
But a lot of people will saybut that's hard.
And I say yes, it is.
And I say I believe in you.
I believe in your ability towalk in Chugam, I believe in
your ability to build fiscallysound, thoughtful businesses
(18:51):
that build meaningful productsthat the world needs.
And I believe in your abilityto do that in a humane way that
centers your developmentalefforts on creating a sense of
inclusivity and belonging foreveryone.
And I understand that you willfail to achieve that goal, and
(19:16):
that's okay.
You still have to try, becausethe work is not in always
succeeding in everything.
The work includes trying.
So there's a little subtledistinction I'm making for you
(19:38):
Is that it's not people insteadof profit, it's both
simultaneously, and as a result,you might have to sacrifice a
little profit, that's true, butbetter to sacrifice a point or
(20:00):
two of profit than to sacrificea human heart.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
So when you go around and are speaking about this
book or coaching people thesedays and you start to ask them
these deeper questions about howthey've been complicit in this
case now with reunion, it's howhave they been complicit and how
have they benefited from thesystems that are in place that
(20:33):
allow for othering?
So when you're asking that typeof question, what are answers
that you're getting?
What are people saying to thatquestion?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Oftentimes it takes their breath away.
Oftentimes they feeluncomfortable.
Oftentimes Dan Harris, who's adear friend, founder of 10%
Happier and the author of thatbook, wrote in his endorsement
(21:06):
something to the effect it's notenough.
He wants us to be a betterhuman Now, he wants us to make
the world a better place.
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
So what do they say?
I have encountered, sometimes,a defensiveness.
(21:34):
I've tried really hard already,jerry, and sometimes though
most times I feel relief.
I feel like people are sayingto me thank you for saying the
(21:54):
things that you're saying,because they're not used to
someone who walks around in themeat sack that I carry pointing
out that I have benefited fromthe position that people who
(22:15):
look like me hold in thisAmerican society in 2024.
And I acknowledge that with thatbenefit comes a responsibility
to move what I can move, to trywhat I can try to speak up and
(22:43):
to speak out when I seeinjustice.
Because here's the thing, arjun, and I know I'm particularly
strident in this book.
I know that some might evencall it political.
I don't think it's political,as in I'm taking a political
(23:06):
party's stance.
I'm taking a stand againsthatred, I'm taking a stand
against dehumanization, becausethe consequence of
dehumanization is genocide.
And it is happening on ourwatch.
(23:32):
It is happening throughout theworld.
It is happening on the streetsof the United States.
Here's a fact that many peoplewill not connect there's all
this debate about DEI programsand whether they're helpful, and
(23:53):
all this.
What the efforts for equity areabout is to make our society
safer, more loving and morecapable of belonging for
everyone.
How can we have that happenwhen gun violence is the number
(24:20):
one cause of death for childrenunder the age of 17?
In the United States in 2024.
Gun violence, gun is pulling atrigger and killing our children
and yeah, I know the impulse isto say I'm a CEO.
(24:51):
What can I do about it?
As I say at one point in thebook, we who lead cannot heal
all that ails us, but we canheal a hell of a lot more than
we pretend.
And there's a through line here, my friend.
(25:16):
There's a through line thatlinks anti-immigration efforts
to anti-black racism, toanti-Asian racism, to
anti-Semitism, to Islamophobia,to transphobia, to the denial of
(25:37):
civil and human rights and theright to healthcare of your
choosing, and gun violence.
There is a through line, andthat through line is the other
person who does not look like meis a threat to me, so much so
(26:00):
that they must be dehumanized.
As I said before, it's just ashort walk between
dehumanization and genocide.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
But a fine line.
That's right.
That's right.
One of my biggest takeaways fromthat and reading your book and
listening to what you just saidwas something I've been thinking
about is one of the primaryreasons people need to read this
book is because it's going toconnect you with the person that
(26:38):
you're looking at.
If you do the work on yourself,if you do the work on finding
out the truth about yourself andyour origin story, you're going
to look at the worlddifferently because you're going
to look at the person you'rehaving a conversation with as
also a person who has ancestors,who has descendants that went
through the ups and downs oflife.
(26:59):
For you to get, for that personto get to that point and for me
to get to my point, for us tohave this conversation,
generations of people had toendure hardships and good times,
and just understanding thateveryone has an origin story I
think is the way to practice theskill of empathy in this case,
(27:22):
because I would argue, very fewpeople are really walking around
looking at the world andlooking at people like this.
But if you can actually do that, you will separate yourself as
a person and as a leader becauseyou're connecting with people.
It's literally just the basichuman element of.
We are both humans.
Let's accept that andunderstand that we have a line
(27:42):
of ancestors that got us to thispoint and I really find that
really interesting.
Maybe you'll find thisinteresting because in the
context of some recent newswhere 23 and me has lost 95% of
its value, I find that kind ofinteresting because you have a
company here who faced financialhardships because people would
(28:03):
get their ancestry tests doneonce and they may not have
gotten the results they wantedor whatever the case may be, and
so you have a company in themacro that's declining in value.
But if you actually did thework yourself in the micro and
in the silence when no one'swatching, you're actually
increasing your value.
So I don't know, I wasconnecting a couple pieces there
(28:27):
of just like, look what's goingon in the macro with a company
like 23 and me, think about whatyou can do personally and then
think about how you can exerciseand practice empathy with the
person that you're having aconversation with.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah, I am surprised at the response that people have
given me in reunion because, asyou point out, part of what I
call the reunion journey isunderstanding the true stories
of your ancestors, and by truestory I mean not just the myths
(29:04):
that we spin about theirexperience, but as much of the
reality as you can grasp and tounderstand the ways they may
have lived up to thoseaspirational, mythological
ideals of who they were and theways they may have come short,
(29:26):
fallen short of that.
And I'm surprised that peopleare so fascinated by that aspect
of the book because they'retaken by the journey that I go
on.
That leads me all the way backto visiting my biological
grandmother, my father'sbiological mother's grave in
(29:48):
Ireland and, as a both, a realjourney for me into the past.
What were the sights and smellsand how did the slant of light
look in that small townlet thatgave birth to my grandmother?
(30:14):
But you do not have to know thegenetic biological connection to
those who to what in the IrishConstitution or the Irish
Declaration of Independencewould say the dead generations.
You do not have to know thespecifics to connect with the
(30:37):
stories of the ancestors so thatand you're right you can create
the ground of empathy and thecompassion.
I challenge anyone other than asociopath to connect with their
own kinfolk.
(30:59):
You know, there's a section inthe book where I talk about.
I'm walking through thecemetery and I talk about
claiming as kin those deadgenerations, those dead and
buried in this hollowed ground,even if they were not my
relatives.
(31:19):
Claiming kinship becomes theground by which on which we can
then claim kinship across thedivides that lead to children
being murdered.
(31:40):
Thank you, it is.
If he went on this exit.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Oh sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah, I was just going to say it's a lack of
empathy and it's a lack ofkinship, but say more.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Yeah, no, I was going to say that in preparing for
this conversation, I startedasking my own parents some
questions about, like where wecame from.
What do they know.
I was like who came before you?
I don't know Anyone reallypassed my grandparents, like how
did we get here?
And I found it was prettyinteresting.
I don't know how true this is,but from our own personal family
(32:18):
experience, like in India, theydidn't really have, they didn't
really keep records of people,and so the stories and the
traditions of former familymembers is often kept a secret
or held back because a lot ofpeople don't really know the
details to share.
So I found that kind offascinating, because you might
(32:39):
be in a country where, yeah,they don't really have records
of the past, so that kind ofmakes it a little bit more
difficult.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Or your ancestors may have suffered in enforced
diaspora.
If they were enslaved and takenfrom the continent of Africa,
for example, to the continentsof North or South America, then
the ability to trace yourselfall the way back, other than,
say, through genetic testing, isreally limited.
(33:08):
Yeah, but I interrupted you.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Oh, it's okay, it's fine, we're having a
conversation and so you know.
So I tried to just dig eveninto like, okay, what caste do
we come from?
And you know, we come from thewarrior caste, and that, just
that insight just kind of helpsme understand, like, why I'm
driven a certain way.
I think you know why I feellike I have this strength in me,
(33:32):
and so I was just kind ofthinking about, like, if I can
just ask a few questions aboutmy own history, my own past,
maybe that's my way of realizingmy own self, worth realizing
that there is strength in me andrealizing that, like, if I
close my eyes and just visualizeall my ancestors and the
(33:52):
generations before me, then Iwill always feel like I belong.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
How did it feel having that conversation with
your parents?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
It was.
It brought us closer.
It felt great because thesewere questions.
They likely unexpected were.
You know, it was unexpected forthem for me to ask these types
of questions.
This is the type ofconversation that we don't
typically have and it kind ofgot them thinking about like,
yeah, you're right, like where,what was our past?
Like, what were the early youknow ancestors?
(34:25):
Like, and you know, kind ofpulling from your book, I'm like
imagine if we find out thatthere's people in our family
that were left off the familytree for whatever reason you
know, wouldn't that befascinating to learn about?
And so it just kind of turnedinto more of like a fascinating
conversation around thepossibilities that exist when
you try to, you know, look atyour origin story.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Well, here's a brilliant, beautiful example of
what you're talking about, and Ido spend quite a bit of time in
the book talking about familysecrets and who gets dismembered
, who gets unremembered.
In effect, in the afterward Ihad three friends, colleagues,
(35:10):
three different women sharetheir stories of belonging and
they come from different sociallocations.
And one woman in Virginiawrites eloquently about her
family's careful tending of afamily tree in the form of a
(35:33):
Bible that got handed down fromgeneration after generation, and
she asks a really profoundquestion relevant to her own
identity what happened to myqueer ancestors?
Were they written about?
What happened to the ancestorswho may have experienced
(35:58):
questions about their own genderidentity?
See, there's a phenomena goingon right now, which is that
somehow these feelings are newand is a consequence of kids
watching videos on TikTok Otherfucking nonsense.
(36:21):
Okay, but because we erasepeople from our own family trees
, what happened to the unclewhose mental illness was so
(36:41):
profound, whose depression wasso profound that he killed
himself?
We don't talk about these folks, and so part of the reunion
process is to reunite, if youwill, with all of these people,
(37:01):
to, as I say in the book, turnthese ghosts from unremembered
people who haunt our familiesand welcome them as ancestors as
well, so that we have not onlyan inkling of to whom we belong,
(37:23):
who's are we, as my friendParker Palmer writes in the
introduction to the book, butwhat is the fullness of that
kinfolk Femininity of thenegative, so that I can land in
(37:50):
my own sense of belonging in away that is robust and full, and
then to turn it outward so thatI can hear your story of
belonging?
What I'm betting is that if Ican induce some few thousand
(38:13):
people to do this work, thatthey will then turn around and
look at, say, what's happeningon the southern border of the
United States, not through thelens of a political machination,
not in service to nefariousforces that would drive us apart
(38:38):
.
I mean, we are talking aboutcivil war in the United States
right now.
Like what are we talking about?
You know, right now I'm in thestate of Texas and a taxi driver
today asked me what do youthink about this conflict
between the state and thefederal government over who
(39:00):
controls the border?
But if we can do this work andwe see someone desperately
trying to cross the Rio Grande,not as a threat but as someone
not that dissimilar, not sodissimilar.
(39:21):
I don't mean to say that there'sa false equivalency between,
say, immigrants who came throughEllis Island and immigrants who
have suffered horrendoustreatment in a march up through
Central America, through Mexico,trying to make it into the
(39:42):
United States.
But there's enough similaritythat we might actually generate
empathy.
You know, call me a pock-eyedoptimist, call me a Buddhist,
but the basis of the alleviationof suffering is compassion for
(40:04):
other people.
I mean, this is the mindblowing cheat code that Buddhism
offers you want to feel better,love someone else.
It's really that simple andthat hard.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah, there's a concept, I think it's called
mudita in the.
Buddhist tradition, where it'slike if you want to feel joy,
feel joy for other people, right, yeah, I mean the whole
conversation around the borderversus them simply being humans.
I think that's an interestingone, because there's elements of
(40:46):
both.
Right, yes, they are humans,and we all are seeking better,
and that's what connects us all,but, at the same time, I can
see the viewpoint of how peopleare being tested and are fed up
with the amount of people thatare coming across, so it's two
(41:06):
different conversations.
At the base of it, though, is ahuman seeking a better life,
and that's something we can allrelate to.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
It's two vantage points on the same challenge.
They're not in opposition.
As I said before, I'm 60 yearsold.
We have had a crisis on thesouthern border of the United
States for 40 years.
We have had a brokenimmigration policy with
(41:34):
half-assed measures for as longas I have been voting.
So here's the question, and thisis a question that I insert
into the entire dialogueimplicit in this book who
(41:54):
benefits when the crisis on theborder remains unsolved?
Who benefits when there's a warin the Middle East that seems
continuous and never ending?
Who benefits?
Because if you really want tounderstand the way societies
(42:15):
work, you have to look at whobenefits from war, from
destruction, from dehumanization, and almost always it's someone
seeking to stay in power.
Who benefits when we are ateach other's throats?
(42:41):
It's neither party, becausethere's no winning, but somebody
and look, I'm not queuing on, Idon't have conspiracy theories
here.
I don't envision individuals,but in some cases there are
(43:02):
individuals who benefit fromproblems, systemic problems
remaining problems, and you knowwho's not benefiting the
average American citizen in ElPaso.
They're not benefiting.
(43:23):
But you know who also isn'tbenefiting.
The average immigrant would beimmigrant from Central America
trying to cross the Rio Grande.
They're not benefiting either.
So who's benefiting from thisproblem that has not been solved
for 40 years?
Because here's the truth, andthis is true at the individual
(43:48):
level and it's true at theorganizational, systemic level
Citizens persist because theyneed a need.
They provide a benefit.
Now, the benefit may beneurotic, but the need is being
met.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
And so the classic follow the money, follow the
power.
That's exactly it.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Follow the money, follow the power.
We're all being subjected tothis kind of sleight of hand.
Pay no attention to what'sreally going on over here.
Look at this crisis over here.
Look at this crisis.
Oh, that person's a threat.
Oh, no, no, that person's athreat.
Stop, you know, it's a threatto all of us.
(44:41):
Dehumanization and silence andsilence.
God bless you for saying thatthat's right.
Silence implies complicity.
Elie Wiesel said silence alwaysbenefits the oppressor.
(45:04):
Neutrality always benefits theoppressor, always.
So who benefits from neutrality?
Hey, it's just business.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
I'm going to take it a couple of beats back, just
reflecting on the concept ofunsaid things, unspoken feelings
, tying it to origin stories.
I'm curious your thoughts.
So in what ways do you feellike the silences in our family
stories is impacting our abilityto connect with people?
(45:46):
Is it because we're simplyuncomfortable with certain
truths?
Speaker 2 (45:50):
I mean Well, I think, because we're not practiced in
the art of naming things, we'repracticed in the art of sweeping
things under the rug.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
We're all really good at that.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
We're really, really good at not saying, hey, there's
a problem here, right,Especially if that naming that
problem might produce guilt orshame.
And so we create this sort ofcollective silence, if you will,
and then the person who issuffering might feel erased or
(46:36):
annihilated.
Now, if we take that activityout of the realm of the family
and put it into the realm of thelarger family system or our
society as a whole, we end upbeing complicit in the erasure
(47:02):
of people, more than not, whohave less power than we do.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
That's mind boggling to think about, because that
reduces their feeling of feelingsufficient, it reduces their
feeling of self-worth, itreduces their feeling of
belonging.
And so all of this is kind ofmanifesting in all of the
challenges that we face, whetherwe're an individual contributor
trying to showcase microleadership acts from the
(47:35):
position that we're in, or we'retitled as a CEO or a founder,
and I feel like a lot of ourchallenges are kind of just
manifesting themselves from thefeeling that we have a lack of
belonging, a lack of self-worthand we feel insufficient.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
That's right.
That's right.
And what I'm enjoying about thelook on your face is that
you're seeing the connectionsbetween all of these things.
The dots are connected.
This was my journey.
I set out to say to myself okay,listen, buddy boy, you think
(48:14):
you're so smart, you think youcan talk to the world about
better humans making betterleaders.
But, as I wrote about in thebook, my daughter called me to
task and said dad, it's notenough to be an ally, you have
to be a co-conspirator.
That process worked its way onme.
(48:37):
I'm not saying to you you haveto do this work.
I have to do this work.
I have to continue to lean intothese hard truths.
If I am going to live up to theexhortation from my daughter to
(48:58):
be an active co-conspirator forsystemic belonging, then I have
to put my heart and my ass onthe line.
I would tell you it would bemuch easier for me to write a
book that was called Reboot tomore stories that will make you
(49:19):
cry.
It would be so much easier.
I could have done it in a year.
It would have been fine.
It might not have sold well,but who cares right?
Instead, I wrote a book thatchallenged the hell out of me,
because the stakes are that high.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Yeah, it's almost like your ancestors were calling
on you to do this, Because mostof the book is really just your
personal story and yourexperience.
Just think about me reading it.
This is the first time I'mreally thinking about this
concept.
I can already imagine, okay, ifI really went deep into my
(50:02):
history of my family, I might beforced to face some really
uncomfortable truths.
I know from reading your bookyou were also in that situation
where you had to face someuncomfortable truths about your
own family, but you were willingto do it.
It goes back to your originalcomment at the beginning of this
conversation around.
Sometimes you have to stop andturn around and actually look at
(50:23):
the tiger that's chasing you.
That's right, yeah.
There's so many elements to you,sharing your story because you
did the work versus someone likeme or an outside or another
person listening who's at theprecipice of taking this leap.
You're going to have to faceyourself, you're going to face
the hardships, but it's going tobe better for you as a person
(50:45):
and then better for you as aleader.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
That's a necessary step in the alleviation of
suffering, which is our life'swork, our job.
The reason we incarnate inthese bodies is to alleviate
suffering, our own and that ofthose around us.
I firmly, wholeheartedlybelieve that how we alleviate
(51:14):
suffering is different foreverybody.
Build a great company thatbuilds a fantastic widget.
The fact that that's what we'recalled to do, that's why the
breath of life was placed insideof us.
I'll be damned if I leave thisearth not having tried my best
(51:43):
to do that task.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
In whatever way I can do it it starts with me, and
then me doing the work on myselfis going to get reflected
around the people around me, Alot of this conversation.
Also, I'm reminded of conceptsfrom your first book Reboot,
because a lot of this is likeokay, we are directed in our
life by so much of what's goingon in our subconscious, so we
(52:11):
have to do the work to bringthat up, bring it to the
forefront, make it conscious.
I just think about all of thethings that we've talked about.
There's also two otherquestions that you like to ask a
lot of people, and that is whatam I saying?
No, what am I not saying thatneeds to be said, and what am I
(52:31):
saying that is not being hurt?
I feel like those are two alsoequally important questions in
this conversation.
I don't know if you can justspend a couple minutes and just
talk about why you emphasizethose two questions and maybe
how those two questions haveunfolded in your own life and
what you've learned from thosequestions.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Well, there's those questions, and then what's being
said that I'm not hearing?
I think that those threequestions are really key.
They have been the undergird ofso much of my own personal
development, but also so much ofthe work I do as a coach.
Can I add a new question tothat list?
(53:12):
This stems from something Iwrote about in the book where
James Baldwin.
At one point I was reallystruggling in the book, in the
writing, and it was JamesBaldwin's birthday, and it was
often the case and social mediawas flooded with quotes by James
(53:34):
Baldwin.
One particularly stood out forme and it came from an interview
he did with the New York Timesand in it he says when I'm
writing, I'm writing aboutthings I do not want to know.
The question that comes to meis and what is it you don't want
to know?
What is it that you don't wantto know about your family?
(53:56):
What is it that your familydidn't want to know?
What is it that you don't wantto know about the world?
Because there are things thatwe will fully choose not to know
and therefore not speak about.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Yeah, I mean that goes back to your comment a
couple minutes ago.
Around you know, there's a highchance that all of us, we might
have a queer family member inour history.
Just given the statistics andhow nature works, there's a high
chance.
Speaker 2 (54:28):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
And what is it that our familydid not want to acknowledge?
And the reason I point us inthat direction is because, on
disconnecting from those factsleaves us less whole, which then
(54:59):
makes it really really hard forus to connect to other kinfolk
and see the fullness andwholeness of them.
So for me and I hope you'reexperiencing this this has been
(55:19):
an unfolding process.
So the work I did and I wrotereboot almost retrospectively.
This is what happened to me.
Here is what I learned, and inthis book, this is what is
happening to me.
Come along on this journey withme, because maybe you'll learn
(55:41):
nothing or two about yourself aswell, because I'm not some
fully enlightened being lookingback and saying this is the way
I'm, just like you, your storyis my story, our stories are the
same.
I may not be from the warriorcaste, but I know those feelings
(56:05):
.
Not to the same degree, not tothe same extent, but I know
those feelings and that binds ustogether as kinfolk.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
Yeah, and that's one of the secrets to being able to
demonstrate empathy with someoneis that ability to say hey, I
may not know exactly theexperience that you're going
through, but I do know thefeeling of, whatever the case
may be, I do know the feeling ofloss, I do know the feeling of
grief, I do know the feeling ofexcitement.
(56:38):
So you know, it's just one wayof really connecting to someone.
The language you can use is youknow, I don't know exactly what
you're going through, I'llnever say that.
I do know what it's like to bein your shoes, but I do know the
feeling of.
And then you fill in the blankand that's how you and I can
relate and I can relate.
Speaker 2 (56:56):
Yeah, and this is how I relate.
Speaker 1 (56:58):
Yeah, so that's like the art and craft of having a
caring conversation right there.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
Arguably the art and craft of being a human.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
Yeah, exactly, exactly yeah.
And I think from thisconversation and for anyone who
picks up reunion, I mean, it'sreally about taking a close look
at everything as you write inthe book, examine it all and
travel your road again.
And when you think about that inthe context of self-discovery,
(57:27):
personal growth and leadership.
That's what's going to help youseparate yourself and be the
person who can create thebelonging and love and safety
that people are really yearningfor.
That's it.
You got it Well, jerry.
I really appreciate the time Imean again for someone like you
(57:49):
to spend an hour with me again.
It's something that I'm trulyyou know grateful for.
It's an experience I'm nevergoing to forget, and I will do
my small part to help make theworld a little bit better by
sharing this.
Speaker 2 (58:07):
That's more than a small part.
That's the whole point of itall.
So thank you for having me onthe show and thank you for
talking to me, and we'll be intouch.
Speaker 1 (58:17):
Sounds good, jerry, appreciate you.
Take care, buddy.
Thanks, kelly.
Jerry Colonna, it's so good to see you.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
A rjun It's great to see you again.
As we were saying just beforewe started recording, it's been
about two years since we lastsaw each other and last spoke
Exactly and actually almost twoyears to the day.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
So the universe has brought us together.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation for a while
now.
I already had your book ReunionTeed Up and then when I heard
you on with Jason Calacanis onhis this Week in Startups
podcast, I reached out to you.
I was like, look, let's see ifwe can get Jerry back on.
(00:35):
And for anyone who actuallyheard that conversation that you
have with Jason, you definitelyhave this unique insight.
You have a unique perspectiveas someone who can truly and
actually talk about and speakabout the pain that comes from
succeeding.
As a former VC, as a coach now,for about 27, 28 years, you
(01:00):
come with this experience and somaybe we can start there with
just your story around that,around just the pain that comes
from succeeding.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Well, part of the how about we just say the pain in
general?
Sure, and it comes to mindbecause I was just finished up a
coaching call with a client who, wisely, took the month of
January off and went scubadiving with his father and took
(01:36):
a real vacation for the firsttime and only to come back to I
don't know about nine differentdisasters in the manufacturing
of the product.
I remember saying to him wouldyou like a side of nails with
that bag of glass you're eating?
And we both laughed becauseit's hard.
(02:00):
But to your point, I think thatthe way to go into the question
of success and its relationshipto some of the challenges that
people experience, I think thatthe best way to think about it
is just how surprising it is forpeople when they hear that
(02:26):
someone is externally successfuland they've built and sold a
company, they are sitting on apile of money, that somehow,
despite all that we have beentaught from fairy tales to
(02:47):
religious tracks, despite thefact that we've been taught
repeatedly that money doesn'tbuy happiness, we're still
surprised.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Now I wanna be clear money doesn't necessarily buy
sadness.
But what it doesn't do is itdoesn't erase the need to do
your own work.
And you're right, I mean.
The somewhat well-known storyfor me was that I was immensely
(03:24):
successful in my 30s as an earlystage VC in New York at the
first way of internet investing,which was arguably the most fun
because everything we did wasbrand new.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
And we're talking like the Yahoo days for people
listening.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
the Yahoo days GeoCities maybe before that
Pre-Yahoo exactly, and lookingat things like being able to
sell advertising for CPMs at$15,000, it was crazy.
And, despite the successes thatI had, the things that drove me
(04:07):
to be depressed throughout mostof my childhood remain the
things that made me depressed,even though I ostensibly had
enough money not to worryanymore.
Right, and the shock of thatand we see stories of this over
and over again.
(04:27):
You mentioned my conversationwith Jason.
Jason was particularly close toTony Shea, for example, from
Zappos.
The shock is the thing thatactually surprises me the most.
Now I mean, I'm 60, now I'vebeen doing this a long time, as
one friend said to me just a fewweeks ago 40 years fuck you, 40
(04:51):
years.
And it just still amazes methat we are collectively
surprised that we still have todo our inner work, we still have
to do the things.
We still have to turn around touse a Buddhist image for a
(05:15):
moment we still have to turnaround and face the tiger that's
chasing us, rather than justkeep running and running and
running and thinking that a bagof gold is gonna save us.
It doesn't.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
No, that's true.
So I mean in your 2019 book.
I mean, the reality is thatwork on yourself.
It takes a lot of effort.
It's probably one of thereasons people fail to really
explore who they truly are.
They fail to explore who theybelong to in terms of their
ancestors and their lineage, andthey probably fail to explore
(06:02):
where they come from as a resultof it.
It's just extra work, it seemslike, but the reality is that
this is the type of work that'srequired if you want to go
deeper into self-discovery, godeeper into growth and
definitely go deeper intoleadership.
And in your 2019 book, reboot,that's where you suggest the
leaders of today's world aregonna be the people who learn to
(06:26):
really do the work on theirwounds, because when you do the
work on your wounds, you have asmaller chance of taking that
out on other people, and so thatwhole book is about asking
yourself, who am I?
And really getting into that.
And then in this new book,reunion, leadership and the
(06:47):
Longing to Belong, you're takingthat question and you're going
a little bit deeper, because nowyou're asking, okay, who's am I
?
And so, again, this question isin the context of
self-discovery, it's in thecontext of leadership.
It's in the context of growth,and so I'd be curious, as you
did your own work on yourself,how do you, jerry Colonna,
(07:09):
address the who's am I question?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, can I say a few things before we go to that
question?
I'm more than happy to go tothat question.
The way I would reframe alittle bit both the description
of Rebute my first book from2019, and then now Reunion.
You're right, it's aninvitation to self-inquiry, it's
(07:39):
an invitation to self-discoveryin both books, and you're right
that I assert that it's reallyimportant.
In fact, what I assert inRebute is that better humans
make better leaders.
And again, you're correct inthe assertion that most people
(08:05):
choose not to do this work.
They see it as too difficult.
But let's go all the way backto even the first thing that you
were talking about, which,arguably, is really about
suffering.
And if you go back, if youremember, from my first book,
(08:28):
there's an infamous questionthat I coined maybe 18, 20 years
ago how have I been complicitin creating the conditions I say
I don't want?
And that question is repeatedaround the internet so many
times that I wish I hadtrademarked it so I'd make a
little bit of money off of it.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I got to say I honestly ask myself that
question at least weekly, if notalmost daily, because there's
so many layers to that question.
But ever since reading yourbook I've been asking myself
that a lot.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Well, the thing that people who dive deep on that
question, that the thing that Ihope that they do, is that they
approach the question withcompassion and curiosity rather
than guilt or shame.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
A boy who has self-hate.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, there is a self-development field, a mantra
that actually very subtlyconveys a message that you are
broken.
If you walk through if suchthings exist anymore physical
(09:46):
bookstores I'm teasing, ofcourse they exist and you stop
in the self-help section,there's an unmistakable aura of
you are broken and read my bookso that you can be fixed,
whether it's to lose weight orto stop procrastinating, or even
(10:08):
to not feel self-hatred in aweird way.
And the thing that I thinkpeople lose when they come at it
from that angle and this istrue for both Reboot and Reunion
my new book I think the thingthat should motivate us to do
(10:32):
this work is the wish to notfeel bad anymore.
If we go back to your firstquestion and we go back to okay,
jerry was successful and thenhe felt suicidally depressed.
And again, it's not that forthe first time in my life I felt
(10:56):
suicidally depressed.
The truth is, I felt suicidallydepressed most of my childhood,
and so the things that werecompelling me to feel these
feelings remained, despite theexternal success.
And so questions like how haveI been complicit in creating the
(11:19):
conditions they say I don'twant?
And questions like that arereally designed, bizarrely, to
alleviate suffering.
To put it another way, thequest to be a better human, as I
talk about in better humansmake better leaders is really a
quest to alleviate suffering,and the really intriguing thing
(11:44):
is, if I work bravely atalleviating my own suffering,
then I am less likely to createtoxic wastelands around me and
hurt other people, which, in asense, reboot is about
(12:06):
alleviating my suffering, andreunion is really about a
process, a set of steps that onecan take to create the
conditions for less sufferingfor those around us.
Right right Now.
You're right, there is thisangle in.
There's a part of the processthat I talk about which is about
(12:30):
reuniting with our past,reuniting with our ancestors,
reuniting with the truth of whatwe're about.
But the thread that ties bothbooks together and, most
importantly, the thread thatties all of that I have learned
in these last 30 years, is thatif you really want to feel
(12:57):
better, you have to go inward.
And, arjun, you know what?
I use the phrase radicalself-inquiry.
That's the radical part of this, because we live in a
capitalistic society that says,if you really want to feel
better by this deodorant, if youreally want to feel better, you
(13:22):
should drive this car, if youreally want to feel better, you
should have flat abs.
And you know what?
It's all a fucking lie.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
All of that is external.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
All of that.
You can literally have it alland still feel miserable.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
Like with a gaping hole inside.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
yeah, and if you then combine that person with a
gaping hole inside with power,look out, look out.
I will hurt every living beingaround me in a bid, unsuccessful
(14:15):
, vain bid to make myself feelbetter.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah, and that even goes to even just the idea of
separating from others likeothering others.
I mean it's all kind of builtin.
You create separation, youcreate the toxic puddles around
you.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yeah, You're referencing an important concept
in my new book, reunion, inwhich what I'm trying to do
there, what I set out to do, wasprimarily answer for myself,
but then offer this to the world.
(15:00):
What is a person'sresponsibility, beyond doing my
own internal work to alleviatemy suffering?
What is my responsibility?
Not just to alleviate thesuffering of those with whom I
work, but to actively andproactively create conditions of
(15:23):
what I call systemic belonging,this sort of root wish that we
all have to feel love, safetyand belonging, to feel that we
are included, that there's anequity yeah, so that those
around me can feel worthwhile,safe, that they somehow matter
(15:55):
in the world.
What is our responsibility asthose of us who hold power?
Because I'll name it, I'm awhite, cisgender, straight man
with power and privilege, and Ilive in a society that really
asks very little of me as itrelates to caring about other
(16:18):
people.
Yeah, interesting and maybe Ihave a moral and ethical
responsibility to give a shit,not maybe I kid.
I absolutely have a moral andethical responsibility to give a
shit, and so that's whatreunion is about.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, and that's interesting because in that and
picking it up from your book youtalk about, maybe in this day
and age, a way to measure thesuccess of a leader is to
measure how much the peoplearound them feel like they
belong.
And so, going back to that ideaof love and safety and
(17:06):
belonging, if you can measurethat and people around a
particular quote unquote leadercan feel like they truly belong,
then that might be a reflectionof the leader themselves and
that might be a way to measuretheir success in terms of how
they're leading and what kind ofwork they've done on themselves
.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, I think that I want to be clear what I'm
demanding demanding is a toughword what I'm suggesting is that
, above and beyond the very realand necessary work of building
(17:46):
fiscally sound, profitable,sustainable organizations and
businesses, above and beyondthat is this other realm, and in
that realm is a realm of deepand powerful leadership that
(18:07):
thinks about the future, thatthinks about what I would refer
to as our descendants, thatthinks about the people who have
less power than we do.
You know, I've been out talkingabout this book for a couple of
months now and I get a lot ofpushback not a lot.
I get much less pushback than Ithought I would get.
(18:29):
But a lot of people will saybut that's hard.
And I say yes, it is.
And I say I believe in you.
I believe in your ability towalk in Chugam, I believe in
your ability to build fiscallysound, thoughtful businesses
(18:51):
that build meaningful productsthat the world needs.
And I believe in your abilityto do that in a humane way that
centers your developmentalefforts on creating a sense of
inclusivity and belonging foreveryone.
And I understand that you willfail to achieve that goal, and
(19:16):
that's okay.
You still have to try, becausethe work is not in always
succeeding in everything.
The work includes trying.
So there's a little subtledistinction I'm making for you
(19:38):
Is that it's not people insteadof profit, it's both
simultaneously, and as a result,you might have to sacrifice a
little profit, that's true, butbetter to sacrifice a point or
(20:00):
two of profit than to sacrificea human heart.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
So when you go around and are speaking about this
book or coaching people thesedays and you start to ask them
these deeper questions about howthey've been complicit in this
case now with reunion, it's howhave they been complicit and how
have they benefited from thesystems that are in place that
(20:33):
allow for othering?
So when you're asking that typeof question, what are answers
that you're getting?
What are people saying to thatquestion?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Oftentimes it takes their breath away.
Oftentimes they feeluncomfortable.
Oftentimes Dan Harris, who's adear friend, founder of 10%
Happier and the author of thatbook, wrote in his endorsement
(21:06):
something to the effect it's notenough.
He wants us to be a betterhuman Now, he wants us to make
the world a better place.
Yeah, that's true.
That's true.
So what do they say?
I have encountered, sometimes,a defensiveness.
(21:34):
I've tried really hard already,jerry, and sometimes though
most times I feel relief.
I feel like people are sayingto me thank you for saying the
(21:54):
things that you're saying,because they're not used to
someone who walks around in themeat sack that I carry pointing
out that I have benefited fromthe position that people who
(22:15):
look like me hold in thisAmerican society in 2024.
And I acknowledge that with thatbenefit comes a responsibility
to move what I can move, to trywhat I can try to speak up and
(22:43):
to speak out when I seeinjustice.
Because here's the thing, arjun, and I know I'm particularly
strident in this book.
I know that some might evencall it political.
I don't think it's political,as in I'm taking a political
(23:06):
party's stance.
I'm taking a stand againsthatred, I'm taking a stand
against dehumanization, becausethe consequence of
dehumanization is genocide.
And it is happening on ourwatch.
(23:32):
It is happening throughout theworld.
It is happening on the streetsof the United States.
Here's a fact that many peoplewill not connect there's all
this debate about DEI programsand whether they're helpful, and
(23:53):
all this.
What the efforts for equity areabout is to make our society
safer, more loving and morecapable of belonging for
everyone.
How can we have that happenwhen gun violence is the number
(24:20):
one cause of death for childrenunder the age of 17?
In the United States in 2024.
Gun violence, gun is pulling atrigger and killing our children
and yeah, I know the impulse isto say I'm a CEO.
(24:51):
What can I do about it?
As I say at one point in thebook, we who lead cannot heal
all that ails us, but we canheal a hell of a lot more than
we pretend.
And there's a through line here, my friend.
(25:16):
There's a through line thatlinks anti-immigration efforts
to anti-black racism, toanti-Asian racism, to
anti-Semitism, to Islamophobia,to transphobia, to the denial of
(25:37):
civil and human rights and theright to healthcare of your
choosing, and gun violence.
There is a through line, andthat through line is the other
person who does not look like meis a threat to me, so much so
(26:00):
that they must be dehumanized.
As I said before, it's just ashort walk between
dehumanization and genocide.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
But a fine line.
That's right.
That's right.
One of my biggest takeaways fromthat and reading your book and
listening to what you just saidwas something I've been thinking
about is one of the primaryreasons people need to read this
book is because it's going toconnect you with the person that
(26:38):
you're looking at.
If you do the work on yourself,if you do the work on finding
out the truth about yourself andyour origin story, you're going
to look at the worlddifferently because you're going
to look at the person you'rehaving a conversation with as
also a person who has ancestors,who has descendants that went
through the ups and downs oflife.
(26:59):
For you to get, for that personto get to that point and for me
to get to my point, for us tohave this conversation,
generations of people had toendure hardships and good times,
and just understanding thateveryone has an origin story I
think is the way to practice theskill of empathy in this case,
(27:22):
because I would argue, very fewpeople are really walking around
looking at the world andlooking at people like this.
But if you can actually do that, you will separate yourself as
a person and as a leader becauseyou're connecting with people.
It's literally just the basichuman element of.
We are both humans.
Let's accept that andunderstand that we have a line
(27:42):
of ancestors that got us to thispoint and I really find that
really interesting.
Maybe you'll find thisinteresting because in the
context of some recent newswhere 23 and me has lost 95% of
its value, I find that kind ofinteresting because you have a
company here who faced financialhardships because people would
(28:03):
get their ancestry tests doneonce and they may not have
gotten the results they wantedor whatever the case may be, and
so you have a company in themacro that's declining in value.
But if you actually did thework yourself in the micro and
in the silence when no one'swatching, you're actually
increasing your value.
So I don't know, I wasconnecting a couple pieces there
(28:27):
of just like, look what's goingon in the macro with a company
like 23 and me, think about whatyou can do personally and then
think about how you can exerciseand practice empathy with the
person that you're having aconversation with.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah, I am surprised at the response that people have
given me in reunion because, asyou point out, part of what I
call the reunion journey isunderstanding the true stories
of your ancestors, and by truestory I mean not just the myths
(29:04):
that we spin about theirexperience, but as much of the
reality as you can grasp and tounderstand the ways they may
have lived up to thoseaspirational, mythological
ideals of who they were and theways they may have come short,
(29:26):
fallen short of that.
And I'm surprised that peopleare so fascinated by that aspect
of the book because they'retaken by the journey that I go
on.
That leads me all the way backto visiting my biological
grandmother, my father'sbiological mother's grave in
(29:48):
Ireland and, as a both, a realjourney for me into the past.
What were the sights and smellsand how did the slant of light
look in that small townlet thatgave birth to my grandmother?
(30:14):
But you do not have to know thegenetic biological connection to
those who to what in the IrishConstitution or the Irish
Declaration of Independencewould say the dead generations.
You do not have to know thespecifics to connect with the
(30:37):
stories of the ancestors so thatand you're right you can create
the ground of empathy and thecompassion.
I challenge anyone other than asociopath to connect with their
own kinfolk.
(30:59):
You know, there's a section inthe book where I talk about.
I'm walking through thecemetery and I talk about
claiming as kin those deadgenerations, those dead and
buried in this hollowed ground,even if they were not my
relatives.
(31:19):
Claiming kinship becomes theground by which on which we can
then claim kinship across thedivides that lead to children
being murdered.
(31:40):
Thank you, it is.
If he went on this exit.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Oh sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah, I was just going to say it's a lack of
empathy and it's a lack ofkinship, but say more.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
Yeah, no, I was going to say that in preparing for
this conversation, I startedasking my own parents some
questions about, like where wecame from.
What do they know.
I was like who came before you?
I don't know Anyone reallypassed my grandparents, like how
did we get here?
And I found it was prettyinteresting.
I don't know how true this is,but from our own personal family
(32:18):
experience, like in India, theydidn't really have, they didn't
really keep records of people,and so the stories and the
traditions of former familymembers is often kept a secret
or held back because a lot ofpeople don't really know the
details to share.
So I found that kind offascinating, because you might
(32:39):
be in a country where, yeah,they don't really have records
of the past, so that kind ofmakes it a little bit more
difficult.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Or your ancestors may have suffered in enforced
diaspora.
If they were enslaved and takenfrom the continent of Africa,
for example, to the continentsof North or South America, then
the ability to trace yourselfall the way back, other than,
say, through genetic testing, isreally limited.
(33:08):
Yeah, but I interrupted you.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Oh, it's okay, it's fine, we're having a
conversation and so you know.
So I tried to just dig eveninto like, okay, what caste do
we come from?
And you know, we come from thewarrior caste, and that, just
that insight just kind of helpsme understand, like, why I'm
driven a certain way.
I think you know why I feellike I have this strength in me,
(33:32):
and so I was just kind ofthinking about, like, if I can
just ask a few questions aboutmy own history, my own past,
maybe that's my way of realizingmy own self, worth realizing
that there is strength in me andrealizing that, like, if I
close my eyes and just visualizeall my ancestors and the
(33:52):
generations before me, then Iwill always feel like I belong.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
How did it feel having that conversation with
your parents?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
It was.
It brought us closer.
It felt great because thesewere questions.
They likely unexpected were.
You know, it was unexpected forthem for me to ask these types
of questions.
This is the type ofconversation that we don't
typically have and it kind ofgot them thinking about like,
yeah, you're right, like where,what was our past?
Like, what were the early youknow ancestors?
(34:25):
Like, and you know, kind ofpulling from your book, I'm like
imagine if we find out thatthere's people in our family
that were left off the familytree for whatever reason you
know, wouldn't that befascinating to learn about?
And so it just kind of turnedinto more of like a fascinating
conversation around thepossibilities that exist when
you try to, you know, look atyour origin story.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Well, here's a brilliant, beautiful example of
what you're talking about, and Ido spend quite a bit of time in
the book talking about familysecrets and who gets dismembered
, who gets unremembered.
In effect, in the afterward Ihad three friends, colleagues,
(35:10):
three different women sharetheir stories of belonging and
they come from different sociallocations.
And one woman in Virginiawrites eloquently about her
family's careful tending of afamily tree in the form of a
(35:33):
Bible that got handed down fromgeneration after generation, and
she asks a really profoundquestion relevant to her own
identity what happened to myqueer ancestors?
Were they written about?
What happened to the ancestorswho may have experienced
(35:58):
questions about their own genderidentity?
See, there's a phenomena goingon right now, which is that
somehow these feelings are newand is a consequence of kids
watching videos on TikTok Otherfucking nonsense.
(36:21):
Okay, but because we erasepeople from our own family trees
, what happened to the unclewhose mental illness was so
(36:41):
profound, whose depression wasso profound that he killed
himself?
We don't talk about these folks, and so part of the reunion
process is to reunite, if youwill, with all of these people,
(37:01):
to, as I say in the book, turnthese ghosts from unremembered
people who haunt our familiesand welcome them as ancestors as
well, so that we have not onlyan inkling of to whom we belong,
(37:23):
who's are we, as my friendParker Palmer writes in the
introduction to the book, butwhat is the fullness of that
kinfolk Femininity of thenegative, so that I can land in
(37:50):
my own sense of belonging in away that is robust and full, and
then to turn it outward so thatI can hear your story of
belonging?
What I'm betting is that if Ican induce some few thousand
(38:13):
people to do this work, thatthey will then turn around and
look at, say, what's happeningon the southern border of the
United States, not through thelens of a political machination,
not in service to nefariousforces that would drive us apart
(38:38):
.
I mean, we are talking aboutcivil war in the United States
right now.
Like what are we talking about?
You know, right now I'm in thestate of Texas and a taxi driver
today asked me what do youthink about this conflict
between the state and thefederal government over who
(39:00):
controls the border?
But if we can do this work andwe see someone desperately
trying to cross the Rio Grande,not as a threat but as someone
not that dissimilar, not sodissimilar.
(39:21):
I don't mean to say that there'sa false equivalency between,
say, immigrants who came throughEllis Island and immigrants who
have suffered horrendoustreatment in a march up through
Central America, through Mexico,trying to make it into the
(39:42):
United States.
But there's enough similaritythat we might actually generate
empathy.
You know, call me a pock-eyedoptimist, call me a Buddhist,
but the basis of the alleviationof suffering is compassion for
(40:04):
other people.
I mean, this is the mindblowing cheat code that Buddhism
offers you want to feel better,love someone else.
It's really that simple andthat hard.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
Yeah, there's a concept, I think it's called
mudita in the.
Buddhist tradition, where it'slike if you want to feel joy,
feel joy for other people, right, yeah, I mean the whole
conversation around the borderversus them simply being humans.
I think that's an interestingone, because there's elements of
(40:46):
both.
Right, yes, they are humans,and we all are seeking better,
and that's what connects us all,but, at the same time, I can
see the viewpoint of how peopleare being tested and are fed up
with the amount of people thatare coming across, so it's two
(41:06):
different conversations.
At the base of it, though, is ahuman seeking a better life,
and that's something we can allrelate to.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
It's two vantage points on the same challenge.
They're not in opposition.
As I said before, I'm 60 yearsold.
We have had a crisis on thesouthern border of the United
States for 40 years.
We have had a brokenimmigration policy with
(41:34):
half-assed measures for as longas I have been voting.
So here's the question, and thisis a question that I insert
into the entire dialogueimplicit in this book who
(41:54):
benefits when the crisis on theborder remains unsolved?
Who benefits when there's a warin the Middle East that seems
continuous and never ending?
Who benefits?
Because if you really want tounderstand the way societies
(42:15):
work, you have to look at whobenefits from war, from
destruction, from dehumanization, and almost always it's someone
seeking to stay in power.
Who benefits when we are ateach other's throats?
(42:41):
It's neither party, becausethere's no winning, but somebody
and look, I'm not queuing on, Idon't have conspiracy theories
here.
I don't envision individuals,but in some cases there are
(43:02):
individuals who benefit fromproblems, systemic problems
remaining problems, and you knowwho's not benefiting the
average American citizen in ElPaso.
They're not benefiting.
(43:23):
But you know who also isn'tbenefiting.
The average immigrant would beimmigrant from Central America
trying to cross the Rio Grande.
They're not benefiting either.
So who's benefiting from thisproblem that has not been solved
for 40 years?
Because here's the truth, andthis is true at the individual
(43:48):
level and it's true at theorganizational, systemic level
Citizens persist because theyneed a need.
They provide a benefit.
Now, the benefit may beneurotic, but the need is being
met.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
And so the classic follow the money, follow the
power.
That's exactly it.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Follow the money, follow the power.
We're all being subjected tothis kind of sleight of hand.
Pay no attention to what'sreally going on over here.
Look at this crisis over here.
Look at this crisis.
Oh, that person's a threat.
Oh, no, no, that person's athreat.
Stop, you know, it's a threatto all of us.
(44:41):
Dehumanization and silence andsilence.
God bless you for saying thatthat's right.
Silence implies complicity.
Elie Wiesel said silence alwaysbenefits the oppressor.
(45:04):
Neutrality always benefits theoppressor, always.
So who benefits from neutrality?
Hey, it's just business.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
I'm going to take it a couple of beats back, just
reflecting on the concept ofunsaid things, unspoken feelings
, tying it to origin stories.
I'm curious your thoughts.
So in what ways do you feellike the silences in our family
stories is impacting our abilityto connect with people?
(45:46):
Is it because we're simplyuncomfortable with certain
truths?
Speaker 2 (45:50):
I mean Well, I think, because we're not practiced in
the art of naming things, we'repracticed in the art of sweeping
things under the rug.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
We're all really good at that.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
We're really, really good at not saying, hey, there's
a problem here, right,Especially if that naming that
problem might produce guilt orshame.
And so we create this sort ofcollective silence, if you will,
and then the person who issuffering might feel erased or
(46:36):
annihilated.
Now, if we take that activityout of the realm of the family
and put it into the realm of thelarger family system or our
society as a whole, we end upbeing complicit in the erasure
(47:02):
of people, more than not, whohave less power than we do.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
That's mind boggling to think about, because that
reduces their feeling of feelingsufficient, it reduces their
feeling of self-worth, itreduces their feeling of
belonging.
And so all of this is kind ofmanifesting in all of the
challenges that we face, whetherwe're an individual contributor
trying to showcase microleadership acts from the
(47:35):
position that we're in, or we'retitled as a CEO or a founder,
and I feel like a lot of ourchallenges are kind of just
manifesting themselves from thefeeling that we have a lack of
belonging, a lack of self-worthand we feel insufficient.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
That's right.
That's right.
And what I'm enjoying about thelook on your face is that
you're seeing the connectionsbetween all of these things.
The dots are connected.
This was my journey.
I set out to say to myself okay,listen, buddy boy, you think
(48:14):
you're so smart, you think youcan talk to the world about
better humans making betterleaders.
But, as I wrote about in thebook, my daughter called me to
task and said dad, it's notenough to be an ally, you have
to be a co-conspirator.
That process worked its way onme.
(48:37):
I'm not saying to you you haveto do this work.
I have to do this work.
I have to continue to lean intothese hard truths.
If I am going to live up to theexhortation from my daughter to
(48:58):
be an active co-conspirator forsystemic belonging, then I have
to put my heart and my ass onthe line.
I would tell you it would bemuch easier for me to write a
book that was called Reboot tomore stories that will make you
(49:19):
cry.
It would be so much easier.
I could have done it in a year.
It would have been fine.
It might not have sold well,but who cares right?
Instead, I wrote a book thatchallenged the hell out of me,
because the stakes are that high.
Speaker 1 (49:40):
Yeah, it's almost like your ancestors were calling
on you to do this, Because mostof the book is really just your
personal story and yourexperience.
Just think about me reading it.
This is the first time I'mreally thinking about this
concept.
I can already imagine, okay, ifI really went deep into my
(50:02):
history of my family, I might beforced to face some really
uncomfortable truths.
I know from reading your bookyou were also in that situation
where you had to face someuncomfortable truths about your
own family, but you were willingto do it.
It goes back to your originalcomment at the beginning of this
conversation around.
Sometimes you have to stop andturn around and actually look at
(50:23):
the tiger that's chasing you.
That's right, yeah.
There's so many elements to you,sharing your story because you
did the work versus someone likeme or an outside or another
person listening who's at theprecipice of taking this leap.
You're going to have to faceyourself, you're going to face
the hardships, but it's going tobe better for you as a person
(50:45):
and then better for you as aleader.
Speaker 2 (50:49):
That's a necessary step in the alleviation of
suffering, which is our life'swork, our job.
The reason we incarnate inthese bodies is to alleviate
suffering, our own and that ofthose around us.
I firmly, wholeheartedlybelieve that how we alleviate
(51:14):
suffering is different foreverybody.
Build a great company thatbuilds a fantastic widget.
The fact that that's what we'recalled to do, that's why the
breath of life was placed insideof us.
I'll be damned if I leave thisearth not having tried my best
(51:43):
to do that task.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
In whatever way I can do it it starts with me, and
then me doing the work on myselfis going to get reflected
around the people around me, Alot of this conversation.
Also, I'm reminded of conceptsfrom your first book Reboot,
because a lot of this is likeokay, we are directed in our
life by so much of what's goingon in our subconscious, so we
(52:11):
have to do the work to bringthat up, bring it to the
forefront, make it conscious.
I just think about all of thethings that we've talked about.
There's also two otherquestions that you like to ask a
lot of people, and that is whatam I saying?
No, what am I not saying thatneeds to be said, and what am I
(52:31):
saying that is not being hurt?
I feel like those are two alsoequally important questions in
this conversation.
I don't know if you can justspend a couple minutes and just
talk about why you emphasizethose two questions and maybe
how those two questions haveunfolded in your own life and
what you've learned from thosequestions.
Speaker 2 (52:50):
Well, there's those questions, and then what's being
said that I'm not hearing?
I think that those threequestions are really key.
They have been the undergird ofso much of my own personal
development, but also so much ofthe work I do as a coach.
Can I add a new question tothat list?
(53:12):
This stems from something Iwrote about in the book where
James Baldwin.
At one point I was reallystruggling in the book, in the
writing, and it was JamesBaldwin's birthday, and it was
often the case and social mediawas flooded with quotes by James
(53:34):
Baldwin.
One particularly stood out forme and it came from an interview
he did with the New York Timesand in it he says when I'm
writing, I'm writing aboutthings I do not want to know.
The question that comes to meis and what is it you don't want
to know?
What is it that you don't wantto know about your family?
(53:56):
What is it that your familydidn't want to know?
What is it that you don't wantto know about the world?
Because there are things thatwe will fully choose not to know
and therefore not speak about.
Speaker 1 (54:14):
Yeah, I mean that goes back to your comment a
couple minutes ago.
Around you know, there's a highchance that all of us, we might
have a queer family member inour history.
Just given the statistics andhow nature works, there's a high
chance.
Speaker 2 (54:28):
Yeah, that's right.
That's right.
And what is it that our familydid not want to acknowledge?
And the reason I point us inthat direction is because, on
disconnecting from those factsleaves us less whole, which then
(54:59):
makes it really really hard forus to connect to other kinfolk
and see the fullness andwholeness of them.
So for me and I hope you'reexperiencing this this has been
(55:19):
an unfolding process.
So the work I did and I wrotereboot almost retrospectively.
This is what happened to me.
Here is what I learned, and inthis book, this is what is
happening to me.
Come along on this journey withme, because maybe you'll learn
(55:41):
nothing or two about yourself aswell, because I'm not some
fully enlightened being lookingback and saying this is the way
I'm, just like you, your storyis my story, our stories are the
same.
I may not be from the warriorcaste, but I know those feelings
(56:05):
.
Not to the same degree, not tothe same extent, but I know
those feelings and that binds ustogether as kinfolk.
Speaker 1 (56:17):
Yeah, and that's one of the secrets to being able to
demonstrate empathy with someoneis that ability to say hey, I
may not know exactly theexperience that you're going
through, but I do know thefeeling of, whatever the case
may be, I do know the feeling ofloss, I do know the feeling of
grief, I do know the feeling ofexcitement.
(56:38):
So you know, it's just one wayof really connecting to someone.
The language you can use is youknow, I don't know exactly what
you're going through, I'llnever say that.
I do know what it's like to bein your shoes, but I do know the
feeling of.
And then you fill in the blankand that's how you and I can
relate and I can relate.
Speaker 2 (56:56):
Yeah, and this is how I relate.
Speaker 1 (56:58):
Yeah, so that's like the art and craft of having a
caring conversation right there.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
Arguably the art and craft of being a human.
Speaker 1 (57:07):
Yeah, exactly, exactly yeah.
And I think from thisconversation and for anyone who
picks up reunion, I mean, it'sreally about taking a close look
at everything as you write inthe book, examine it all and
travel your road again.
And when you think about that inthe context of self-discovery,
(57:27):
personal growth and leadership.
That's what's going to help youseparate yourself and be the
person who can create thebelonging and love and safety
that people are really yearningfor.
That's it.
You got it Well, jerry.
I really appreciate the time Imean again for someone like you
(57:49):
to spend an hour with me again.
It's something that I'm trulyyou know grateful for.
It's an experience I'm nevergoing to forget, and I will do
my small part to help make theworld a little bit better by
sharing this.
Speaker 2 (58:07):
That's more than a small part.
That's the whole point of itall.
So thank you for having me onthe show and thank you for
talking to me, and we'll be intouch.
Speaker 1 (58:17):
Sounds good, jerry, appreciate you.
Take care, buddy.
Thanks, kelly.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com